2 Storm Bolters and the Rhino is 74 points. They're actually very durable for the cost. It isn't unreasonable for us to just get Open Topped back for the Ghost Ark.
The ghost ark has 2.5 times the firepower (not including the extra -1ap), and is significantly more durable. Making it open top would give it 5 times the number of shots while a unit is on board - there's no way that wouldn't incur a point increase!
Ok let them transport and heal immortals.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What about something like this
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Necrons) ++
Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Mephrit
+ HQ +
Cryptek: Canoptek Cloak, Staff of Light
Overlord: Warscythe
+ Troops +
Immortals: Gauss Blaster, 5x immortals
Necron Warriors: 10x Necron Warrior
Necron Warriors: 14x Necron Warrior
+ Elites +
C'tan Shard of the Deceiver
+ Heavy Support +
Doomsday Ark
Doomsday Ark
+ Dedicated Transport +
Ghost Ark
Ghost Ark
++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Necrons) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Sautekh
+ HQ +
Destroyer Lord: Artefact: The Nanoscarab Casket, Phylactery, Staff of Light
Warlord: Warlord Trait (Sautekh): Hyperlogical Strategist
2 Storm Bolters and the Rhino is 74 points. They're actually very durable for the cost. It isn't unreasonable for us to just get Open Topped back for the Ghost Ark.
The ghost ark has 2.5 times the firepower (not including the extra -1ap), and is significantly more durable. Making it open top would give it 5 times the number of shots while a unit is on board - there's no way that wouldn't incur a point increase!
Ok let them transport and heal immortals.
Give it a price hike and let it transport and heal Immortals and it'd see a lot more table time. Problem is that doesn't help warriors who are already struggling.
It needs something to make it worthwhile transporting the dudes up the board. 10 warriors up the board doesn't really do much at the moment. That's 290 points that's better spent at some other nice utility. Mephrit certainly helps. The Ark could radiate a 5++ aura, that would help.
Or make it into a proper necron "transport" and slap a teleportation gate on it.
Now it can bring in 20 model warrior blobs at any time. Or immortals, or destroyers, etc.
You'd think the necrons would be smart enough to properly adapt their jury rigged civilian vehicles for war, instead of just leaving it as an ambulance/hearse.
I think the only sensible way to use a Ghost Ark is as support for 2x 20 Warriors. They're probably not worth their points if you're not making the most of their repair ability.
They are pretty damn tough though which is what inspired my Ghost Ark spam list on the previous page. If you have weaker targets in a list the Arks can be Ignored, but a pure Ark list seems like a pain in the arse to deal with.
If a Ghost Ark could hold 20 Warriors, I'd probably take one. 10 Warriors just don't do enough, and it costs too many points to just be an ambulance with some guns on it.
This list is far better than I would like it to be:
Spoiler:
Nephrek Battalion:
Overlord Lord + Veil
5x Tesla Immortals 5x Tesla Immortals 5x Tesla Immortals
6x Destroyers 6x Destroyers 6x Destroyers
Sautekh Spearhead:
Cryptek + Cloak - Warlord with Sautekh trait
DDA DDA DDA
It's fairly straightforward:
3 MSU Nephrek Immortals for objectives and screening 3 Nephrek Destroyer units for destroying. Deep strike them all if you want. 3 DDAs for doing what DDAs do.
9 CP + the Sautekh WL trait.
If you deep strike all the destroyers, one unit can go tank hunting with extermination protocols, the other two can be joined by the veil lord who brings the overlord with him. So the two units get to reroll 1's to hit and wound and can both be MWBD in the next turn.
Edit: The more I think about this the better it gets. The first 6 drops are 3 characters that can go anywhere, and 3 Destroyer units in reserves so your opponent can't counter deploy anything. After that it's 3 units of 5 immortals which also don't give much away, then your last 3 drops are the DDAs which are the first things that really matter and they will get to deploy to counter most of the opponents deployment.
Honestly I think this is up there with the best the codex can do.
5x Tesla Immortals
5x Tesla Immortals
5x Tesla Immortals
6x Destroyers
6x Destroyers
6x Destroyers
Sautekh Spearhead:
Cryptek + Cloak - Warlord with Sautekh trait
DDA DDA DDA
It's fairly straightforward:
3 MSU Nephrek Immortals for objectives and screening
3 Nephrek Destroyer units for destroying. Deep strike them all if you want.
3 DDAs for doing what DDAs do.
9 CP + the Sautekh WL trait.
If you deep strike all the destroyers, one unit can go tank hunting with extermination protocols, the other two can be joined by the veil lord who brings the overlord with him. So the two units get to reroll 1's to hit and wound and can both be MWBD in the next turn.
Edit: The more I think about this the better it gets. The first 6 drops are 3 characters that can go anywhere, and 3 Destroyer units in reserves so your opponent can't counter deploy anything. After that it's 3 units of 5 immortals which also don't give much away, then your last 3 drops are the DDAs which are the first things that really matter and they will get to deploy to counter most of the opponents deployment.
Honestly I think this is up there with the best the codex can do.
I like scarabs for late game objective grabbers.
Only other concern is why you chose Nephrek? You really don't have any units that benefit greatly from it.
I think i would swap out 1 unit of destroyers for 1 unit of Wraiths.
It does look strong though, playing to our best units. I would just test it with and without the wraiths to see. I think 12 destroyers is more than enough and you may need some CC to lock up units and rush ahead turn 1 to get that T1 charge.
Nephrek allows you to deepstrike, if I had to guess I'd say that's it.
Maybe what I'd add is: why not go for Nihilakh on the DDA dettachment? You shouldn't be planning on moving them that much either way, so you get a bonus for not doing so.
Only other concern is why you chose Nephrek? You really don't have any units that benefit greatly from it.
What now? The MSU Tesla units benefit from Nephrek by being able to move 11", it's what makes them good for objectives and screening. Far more importantly though: the Nephrek Translocation Crypt stratagem is ideal for Destroyers. It's like, the point of the list.
Scarabs are great for objectives and screening, but this list can make do with the Immortals in that role.
Wraiths vs Destroyers isn't even a contest. I think Wraith are a fairly mediocre unit due to their cost.
Nephrek allows you to deepstrike, if I had to guess I'd say that's it.
Maybe what I'd add is: why not go for Nihilakh on the DDA dettachment? You shouldn't be planning on moving them that much either way, so you get a bonus for not doing so.
Sautekh gives you:
The Warlord trait
Methodical Destruction Strat (1st DDA triggers for the other two)
The ability to move and shoot the main weapon without a -1 to hit.
Wraiths vs Destroyers isn't even a contest. I think Wraith are a fairly mediocre unit due to their cost.
Hm, sort of agree/disagree. Wraiths are probably not worth 55 points, but they provide a relatively scary melee threat, which is something that, imo, you need in a list. Without the threat of a strong charging unit, your opponent will feel free to deploy and move as he or she wishes. With Wraiths on the table, they have to protect their important squishy units and make sure the shooty things don't get tied up for the rest of the game. While Wraiths will die to concentrated firepower, that's also shooting that's not going into your Destroyers.
I had a game where my opponent fired his whole army into 6 Wraiths to kill them, but my Destroyers, Tesseract Vault, and Immortals (who were scoring objectives as they do) were untouched until T2. While it sucks to lose 330 points in a turn, it was also far worth it to let my army get into position unmolested, especially since he had to deploy in a small bubble to prevent the first turn charge.
So yeah, while Wraiths do not win the game by themselves, I think their presence on the board changes your opponent's playstyle and tactics enough to be worth including a unit.
What now? The MSU Tesla units benefit from Nephrek by being able to move 11", it's what makes them good for objectives and screening. Far more importantly though: the Nephrek Translocation Crypt stratagem is ideal for Destroyers. It's like, the point of the list.
Yeah but you cannot DS outside of your Deployment Zone T1. And you dont have the C'tan, Monolith or Night Sycthe to get the extra range? Why not just VoD 1 unit? Also, if you advance the Destroyers you cannot shoot that turn, the Destroyer rule only helps with the -1 to hit for heavys. Sautekh on the other hand would turn those weapons into assault weapons and allow you to advance, though you are not guaranteed the 6" at that point, but at least you can still shoot.
Scarabs are great for objectives and screening, but this list can make do with the Immortals in that role.
.
Fair enough, but Scarabs are way faster. Even if its just one unit for late game Objective grabs
Wraiths vs Destroyers isn't even a contest. I think Wraith are a fairly mediocre unit due to their cost.
Gotta disagree. Getting the T1 charge on a vital unit can really throw a wrench into peoples plans and allows you to threaten heavy shooty armys by tying them up in CC.
Sautekh gives you:
The Warlord trait
Methodical Destruction Strat (1st DDA triggers for the other two)
The ability to move and shoot the main weapon without a -1 to hit.
Yeah. I think Sautekh Battalion as the core army would be great, and then a Nephrek outrider with 2 scarabs and wraiths and a cheap lord or overlord.
I did do a fair bit of pondering about weather to go all Sautekh, all Nephrek or splitting between the two in various ways. I settled on this split but can certainly see arguments for the alternatives.
Scarabs are better for objective grabbing than the Immortals agreed, but I'm thinking the Immortals are good enough when the alternative is taking less of the killy stuff.
My objection to Wraiths is that they just do what they always did (demand to be dealt with while being tough) but cost more. They really aren't that killy. I also find that lists seem more likely to have enough dakka to deal with them effectively these days. In addition, if you're up against marines or Chaos with a psyker the wraith will have their invulnerable save removed and your opponent will be wearing a very smug grin. Mortal wounds are also a thing that didn't used to happen.
punisher357 wrote: Wraiths are definitely a good unit for distraction. They WILL draw fire and, if by some miracle they don't, they will do some serious damage.
Lychguard would be better, IMO, if it weren't for their mobility problems
Nephrekh Lychguard with shields and the stratagem could be really annoying.
Only other concern is why you chose Nephrek? You really don't have any units that benefit greatly from it.
What now? The MSU Tesla units benefit from Nephrek by being able to move 11", it's what makes them good for objectives and screening. Far more importantly though: the Nephrek Translocation Crypt stratagem is ideal for Destroyers. It's like, the point of the list.
Scarabs are great for objectives and screening, but this list can make do with the Immortals in that role.
Wraiths vs Destroyers isn't even a contest. I think Wraith are a fairly mediocre unit due to their cost.
Nephrek allows you to deepstrike, if I had to guess I'd say that's it.
Maybe what I'd add is: why not go for Nihilakh on the DDA dettachment? You shouldn't be planning on moving them that much either way, so you get a bonus for not doing so.
Sautekh gives you:
The Warlord trait
Methodical Destruction Strat (1st DDA triggers for the other two)
The ability to move and shoot the main weapon without a -1 to hit.
Nihilak would not be bad though.
I think for Telsa weapons, Merphrit might be the best Code, but needs to have some teleportation combo to support.
Destroyers can be any dyansty and being "not bad", though Nephrek with the DS stratagem might be best in keeping alive to fire at least one salvo. Or maybe Sautekh if you have enough Overlords to spare at least one to MWBD on them.
DDA, I think it is quite a tough call. If you are deployed along short table edge (i.e. there is relatively more room between the deployment zones), the Nihilak is the best. However, if you are unlucky and get the long edge deployment and face off Genestealer Cult, Magnus / Flying Daemon Prince (with Warptime have a charge threat range of 32+2D6" range) or Harpy / Hive Crone or Swarmlord + flyrant slingshot combo, all of which can potentially make a T1, Sautekh is better pick due to able to retreat and still hit on 3s with its main cannon. However, you can't possibly know deployment type when building the list.
+ Heavy Support +
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
+++ 1999pts +++
Really wish I could fit some Scarabs in with the Nephrekhs, but there's only room for three Fast slots, so no dice.
Maybe switch the forces around, so it's a Sautekh Battalion and a Nephrekh Outrider? Hmm, but then they'd be Sautekh Gauss Immortals (not bad, but not as useful as Neph Tesla Immortals).
Also, has someone done the math on whether a single T.Vault works out to be better or worse, points wise, than three DDAs? (+ Cloak-Tek, maybe, if taking points into consideration)
punisher357 wrote: Wraiths are definitely a good unit for distraction. They WILL draw fire and, if by some miracle they don't, they will do some serious damage.
Lychguard would be better, IMO, if it weren't for their mobility problems
Nephrekh Lychguard with shields and the stratagem could be really annoying.
I've considered that. It would be nice, but I'm not sure lychguard are worth building around. Sure Nephrekh could let them advance up quickly but you move, you advance, you stand there and get blasted and then attempt to move and charge something if your opponent was foolish enough to leave anything that close.......seems too easily foiled. I'm sure I'll try it at some point.
Agreed. We are starved for Fast Attack Slots. I think scarabs should be troops personally. Like rippers. Or Destroyers should be heavy's. It's weird b/c if you upgrade 1 destroyer to heavy its still a FA slot, for a heavy unit, but if you just buy 3 Heavy Destroyers outright its a Heavy Slot.
Too bad our elite slots are mediocre. But we got to work with what we have.
punisher357 wrote: It makes me sad to see that warriors and ghost arks just aren't that good anymore.
Warriors are good for what they are. They are point cost right in between a Tac Marine and scout, with slightly better AP, slightly slower, but they get RP. I think Tesla warriors would be an interesting concept. What would make warriors a "must take" of immortals? Point cost? Stat line change?
2 Storm Bolters and the Rhino is 74 points. They're actually very durable for the cost. It isn't unreasonable for us to just get Open Topped back for the Ghost Ark.
The ghost ark has 2.5 times the firepower (not including the extra -1ap), and is significantly more durable. Making it open top would give it 5 times the number of shots while a unit is on board - there's no way that wouldn't incur a point increase!
Would you like to calculate how much more durable? The answer might shock you on the Rhinos durability.
They're not more durable against small arms fire, but against bigger stuff they are. Quantum Shielding is killer.
Ghost Ark is T6, 4+, 14 wounds, with Quantum Shielding. Quantum Shielding turns damage 2 into damage 1.67, damage 3 into damage 2, and damage d6 into damage 1.56.
Rhino is T7, 3+, 11 wounds.
Formula is Wounds*Save Chance*Wound Chance/Damage=Hits needed.
Against Bolters:
Ghost Ark takes 14*2*3=84 hits to die.
Rhino takes 11*3*3=99 hits to die.
Against Assault Cannons:
Ghost Ark takes 14*1.5*2=42 hits to die.
Rhino takes 11*2*3=66 hits to die.
Against Autocannons:
Ghost Ark takes 14*1.5*1.5/1.67=18.86 hits to die.
Rhino takes 11*2*2/2=22 hits to die.
Against Lascannons:
Ghost Ark takes 14*1*1.5/1.56=13.46 hits to die.
Rhino takes 11*1.2*1.5/3.5=5.66 hits to die.
Against Thunder Hammers:
Ghost Ark takes 14*1*1.5/2=10.5 hits to die.
Rhino takes 11*1.2*1.5/3=6.6 hits to die.
And, just for fun, against a Knight Titan's Gauntlet:
Ghost Ark takes 14*1*1.2=16.8 hits to die.
Rhino takes 11*1*1.2/6=2.2 hits to die.
+ Heavy Support +
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
+++ 1999pts +++
Really wish I could fit some Scarabs in with the Nephrekhs, but there's only room for three Fast slots, so no dice.
Maybe switch the forces around, so it's a Sautekh Battalion and a Nephrekh Outrider? Hmm, but then they'd be Sautekh Gauss Immortals (not bad, but not as useful as Neph Tesla Immortals).
Also, has someone done the math on whether a single T.Vault works out to be better or worse, points wise, than three DDAs? (+ Cloak-Tek, maybe, if taking points into consideration)
What warlord trait and why?.. loving the list by the way..
With the multitude of 6-12 Destroyers in lists, anyone mixing in a Heavy to units? While the rate of fire is assuredly a strong point for Destroyers, having a reliable shot for things T7+ can really help get that tank or monster over hurt threshold and fully dead instead.
JNAProductions wrote: They're not more durable against small arms fire, but against bigger stuff they are. Quantum Shielding is killer.
Ghost Ark is T6, 4+, 14 wounds, with Quantum Shielding. Quantum Shielding turns damage 2 into damage 1.67, damage 3 into damage 2, and damage d6 into damage 1.56.
Rhino is T7, 3+, 11 wounds.
Formula is Wounds*Save Chance*Wound Chance/Damage=Hits needed.
Against Bolters:
Ghost Ark takes 14*2*3=84 hits to die.
Rhino takes 11*3*3=99 hits to die.
Against Assault Cannons:
Ghost Ark takes 14*1.5*2=42 hits to die.
Rhino takes 11*2*3=66 hits to die.
Against Autocannons:
Ghost Ark takes 14*1.5*1.5/1.67=18.86 hits to die.
Rhino takes 11*2*2/2=22 hits to die.
Against Lascannons:
Ghost Ark takes 14*1*1.5/1.56=13.46 hits to die.
Rhino takes 11*1.2*1.5/3.5=5.66 hits to die.
Against Thunder Hammers:
Ghost Ark takes 14*1*1.5/2=10.5 hits to die.
Rhino takes 11*1.2*1.5/3=6.6 hits to die.
And, just for fun, against a Knight Titan's Gauntlet:
Ghost Ark takes 14*1*1.2=16.8 hits to die.
Rhino takes 11*1*1.2/6=2.2 hits to die.
yes! and qs draws small arms fire away from your infantry and other smaller stuff, making them even sturdier. 2*20 warrior blobs, accompanied by a cronotek (and the WL-trait) and a g-ark need a lot of firepower to be removed.
Good gak Drukhari are annoying to play against. Agents of Vect with Labyrinthine Cunning is just irritating.
Has anyone done the math on how many destroyers it takes to kill a razorwing jetfighter, raider, ravager, or venom?
I want to say with extermination protocols you could split 3 and 3, and kill 2 a round, but I can't get the damn stratagem off. How do you counter this crap?
I just played a 2k game against Drukhari last night. Getting my extermination protocols blocked every turn felt bad man. They die easy, but yikes do they sling a lot of weapons. I will say that they have no staying power, so as long as you can survive the first round of shooting you should be in good shape.
+ Heavy Support +
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
+++ 1999pts +++
Really wish I could fit some Scarabs in with the Nephrekhs, but there's only room for three Fast slots, so no dice.
Maybe switch the forces around, so it's a Sautekh Battalion and a Nephrekh Outrider? Hmm, but then they'd be Sautekh Gauss Immortals (not bad, but not as useful as Neph Tesla Immortals).
Also, has someone done the math on whether a single T.Vault works out to be better or worse, points wise, than three DDAs? (+ Cloak-Tek, maybe, if taking points into consideration)
What warlord trait and why?.. loving the list by the way..
Warlord would be the Cloak-tek, simply for the Hyperlogical Strategist trait. With 9 CP your odds of getting a bunch back are decent.
What does everyone thing about the Gauss Pylon? Outside of killing <TITANIC> units, is there really a use for them in competitive play? 550 points is pretty hefty, where 2-3 DDAs will do the trick.
Rumbling_Otter wrote: What does everyone thing about the Gauss Pylon? Outside of killing <TITANIC> units, is there really a use for them in competitive play? 550 points is pretty hefty, where 2-3 DDAs will do the trick.
I think there was a discussion on this quite a few pages back.....general consensus seemed to be that DDA is the better option unless you're dealing with titans.
I admit those numbers look worse than I was expecting, but when you consider that you're getting the firepower of 10 warriors (120pts) and a better RP aura than a Cryptek (70pts), 160pts looks good. Perhaps comparing it to a rhino it should drop 10-20 points. The important thing to take from the numbers is that it takes a significant amount of firepower to take it down whatever shoots at it, where as the rhino is weak against any big guns.
If it could carry 20 warriors, that would be awesome, but the model will look a bit out of place. Transporting immortals would be an interesting change, even if it's a little against the fluff...
As already mentioned, their roll is to support warriors, transporting them is just an extra. Keep one behind two units of warriors, late game when one is down below 10 models use the transport to grab an objective, and perhaps boost the unit back to 10 with a buff when disembarked on top.
I admit those numbers look worse than I was expecting, but when you consider that you're getting the firepower of 10 warriors (120pts) and a better RP aura than a Cryptek (70pts), 160pts looks good. Perhaps comparing it to a rhino it should drop 10-20 points. The important thing to take from the numbers is that it takes a significant amount of firepower to take it down whatever shoots at it, where as the rhino is weak against any big guns.
If it could carry 20 warriors, that would be awesome, but the model will look a bit out of place. Transporting immortals would be an interesting change, even if it's a little against the fluff...
As already mentioned, their roll is to support warriors, transporting them is just an extra. Keep one behind two units of warriors, late game when one is down below 10 models use the transport to grab an objective, and perhaps boost the unit back to 10 with a buff when disembarked on top.
So my point is that, based on the cost, allowing Warriors in it to shoot wouldn't be a big deal.
If we're going with wishlists for rules changes instead of talking tactics, I'd say that they should just get rid of the warrior distinction altogether on Ghost Arks.
Their RP Aura should work on anything with RP.
Their ability to transport should work on any infantry without fly.
Boom, instantly viable. Scytheguard also instantly viable. Destroyers and Tomb Blades would benefit, but still be relatively weaker since fast Immortals would compete with TBs and Scythguard would compete with Destroyers for heavy killing.
Xachariah wrote: If we're going with wishlists for rules changes instead of talking tactics
No, please.
We had finally just gotten back on topic after pages of irrelevant waffling.
If you want to talk Ghost Arks usage, let's stick to current usability... or lack thereof.
At the moment, yes, it's just a Warrior ambulance. And as Warriors are currently mediocre, the Ghost Ark by extension is not so great.
With all the delivery options we have available it's not even that good as an HQ taxi anymore (I miss Royal Court Disco Inferno Party Bus).
We could talk about all the ways they could have made it a better unit, but honestly that does nothing to help anything.
5 turn limited ITC mission 5. I picked Recon, Old School, Reaper. He picked Titanslayer, Old School, Gangbusters(scarabs)
He got first turn. I deceived 3 units and C'Tan forward: vault and surrounded it by scarabs and wraiths. He shot almost everything into Vault (2x shooting oblits, deepstriked tz). Failed to kill it (barelly, due to bad damage rolls from oblits (1 both times)). 0 units dead, 1 objective. (1 point)
On my turn I full HPd it(Strat), cast extra power(strat), veiled 19 warriors. 2x MWBD tesla and warriors (strat). Killed 40 cultists(tesla, warriors), 26 pinks (died to morale and vault), tz herald(vault,deceiver), elixir DP(wraiths, vault). I went forward with all my chars, putting them on 3 objectives and getting the bonus, ran with ganbuster scarabs. Killed 4(more), held 3(more), bonus, first blood, full reaper, recon (10 points). Wow that felt really good.
His 2nd turn he wiped the vault, wraiths and scarabs. 3 kills(more), hold 1, max(3) titanslayer, max(2) gangbusters. (9 pts)
My 2nd turn went poorly. Focused the knight. Only got him to 6 wounds. Kill 0, hold 3(more), recon. (13 pts)
His 3rd was killing the warriors. Kill 1, Hold 1 (11 pts)
My 3rd was killing the knight, 10 cultists. Tried to kill warlord DP with C'tan(left him on 3 wounds). Kill 2(more), hold 2(more), recon. (18 pts)
His 4th was killing c'tan and exploding, killing his warlord. He shot some immortals with oblits but 1 survived. Kill 1, hold 1(13pts)
My 4th was trying to kill forgefiend and whiffiing. Ran with Gauss to hide them (1'' >.< Kill 0, hold 2(more), recon(maxed), slay warlord(22 pts)
His 5th was trying to kill immortals (killed 2 and 3rd was not in LoS since he killed only 2 in 1 activation). Kill 0, hold 1. (14pts)
My 5th was killing 10 cultists. Kill 1(more), hold 1(more), last strike, cloaktek got linebreaker(28 pts)
Things I've learned/knew already: vault is REALLY squishy, barges feel really bad for their points, mephrit is a trap and did next to nothing in the game, sniper trait and artifact are awful, gauss was always not in RF range so tesla is just better, I need destroyers(finally in stock so I ordered them).
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a follow-up, my view of the codex is:
Sautekh - almost useless trait(unless someone can prove me otherwise), overpriced gem, best warlord trait)
Mephrit - trap, just bad
Novokh - necrons aren't a CC army
Nihilakh - 3DDA spearhead
Nephrekh - best one for everything not 3DDA spearhead
WL Traits - morale immune + psyker. Everything else seems bad
Relics - veil. Everything else seems bad
Units to use:
Spoiler:
HQ:
Must: overlord, cloaktek
Maybe: lord, CCB
Troops:
Tesla and warriors. Keep enough at 9/19 to avoid reaper
Elites:
Deceiver amazing if you get turn 1, still good otherwise unless you're HEAVILY scouted out.
Fast attack:
Must: destroyers (duh)
Probably: wraiths (toned down necron hive tyrants - good all round), Toomblades, scarabs
Heavy Support:
DDA
Vault
Automatically Appended Next Post: So my 3 lists for now are:
Vault:
Spoiler:
Nephrekh battalion:
cloaktek
overlord(veil, voidblade, WL)
9 tesla
8 tesla
20 warriors
Deceiver
6 destroyers
5 wraiths
Vault
DDA:
Spoiler:
Nephrekh battalion:
cloaktek
overlord(veil, staff, WL)
9 tesla
10 tesla
20 warriors
Deceiver(questionable)
6 destroyers
6 wraiths (3 particles)
Nihilakh Spearhead
Lord(cheapest)
3DDA
Toomblades:
Spoiler:
Nephrekh battalion:
cloaktek
overlord(veil, staff, WL)
9 tesla
10 tesla
20 warriors
Deceiver(questionable)
Nephrekh outrider
Lord(cheapest)
6 destroyers
6 wraiths (3 particles)
9 toomblades (shield, either weapon(probably the more anti-tank one tho))
Im glad others are coming to realization Mephrit are a trap. Though do feel you undervalued Sautekh. personally love having my doomsday arks in this, as it allows them to be very fast and useful after all the larger targets are delt with. That and i pop CP like candy, so getting back on 5+ has saved me on multiple occasions
So it only helps DDAs, really? And only with the -1 if they move which I really don't want them to. Eh... Maybe? Just run spearhead to get that juicy trait? /shrug
Seems pretty good. Maybe Nihilak is just not worth it. Re-roll 1 if not moving vs 5+ CP trait and better if moving. hm...
rvd1ofakind wrote: So it only helps DDAs, really? And only with the -1 if they move which I really don't want them to. Eh... Maybe? Just run spearhead to get that juicy trait? /shrug
Seems pretty good. Maybe Nihilak is just not worth it. Re-roll 1 if not moving vs 5+ CP trait and better if moving. hm...
I always take DDA as Sautekh and aggresively move forward after the first turns of shooting. Having them block enemy troops, or shoot their flayers is worth it big times. I only got good experience with this.
Edit:
Heavy melee units with high dmg weapons hate them up close!
rvd1ofakind wrote: So it only helps DDAs, really? And only with the -1 if they move which I really don't want them to. Eh... Maybe? Just run spearhead to get that juicy trait? /shrug
Seems pretty good. Maybe Nihilak is just not worth it. Re-roll 1 if not moving vs 5+ CP trait and better if moving. hm...
Haven't tried Mephrit yet so I cannot attest to that. However, Novokh is fun and was decent in the one game I tried it. Sautekh is great. The warlord trait and Methodical Destruction are really good, and the Abyssal Staff is free and can sometimes be used to almost auto trigger Methodical Destruction. Also, Imotekh. Double MWBD and then Advancing and shooting at normal BS. How is that bad?
Nephrekh seems almost the go-to for most people at this point, and I see why.
Imotekh is not great. 2 OLs are a direct comparison: they take up more spots, they are better durability and about on par damage wise, they cost less. So immotekh has 1 CP and the OPG ability. If that's worth having to take another HQ and having to pay more points - eh, I don't think so. Depends on the list I guess
rvd1ofakind wrote: Imotekh is not great. 2 OLs are a direct comparison: they take up more spots, they are better durability and about on par damage wise, they cost less. So immotekh has 1 CP and the OPG ability. If that's worth having to take another HQ and having to pay more points - eh, I don't think so. Depends on the list I guess
To each their own. He's been great every time I've played him.
I think that the main problem with Mephrit is that it requires units that can be consistently in half range to be effective, which makes it sub-optimal for Warriors and Immortals. However, I think that it really shines for outrider detachments of Tesla tomb blades. Having the Tesla profile allows them to be effective outside of 12", and then if they enter rapid fire range, they outperform gauss tomb blades against most targets due to the -1 AP from Mephrit
rvd1ofakind wrote: So it only helps DDAs, really? And only with the -1 if they move which I really don't want them to. Eh... Maybe? Just run spearhead to get that juicy trait? /shrug
Seems pretty good. Maybe Nihilak is just not worth it. Re-roll 1 if not moving vs 5+ CP trait and better if moving. hm...
Haven't tried Mephrit yet so I cannot attest to that. However, Novokh is fun and was decent in the one game I tried it. Sautekh is great. The warlord trait and Methodical Destruction are really good, and the Abyssal Staff is free and can sometimes be used to almost auto trigger Methodical Destruction. Also, Imotekh. Double MWBD and then Advancing and shooting at normal BS. How is that bad?
Nephrekh seems almost the go-to for most people at this point, and I see why.
Mephrit is very strong if you want to kill marines who are "tough" due to have a good armor save. Just you still need to build your army around a strategy of teleportation or accross the field very fast. Now marines are almost on the edge of being "kicked out" of the competitive play so its value is not as high as we formerly expected.
I think in the current meta, the major factor defining "tough" becomes either hard to hit, inv saves or FnP, or even just cheap enough in points that lossing lots of them does not matter. in such a situation a further AP-1 is good but not great.
Mephrit is very strong if you want to kill marines who are "tough" due to have a good armor save. Just you still need to build your army around a strategy of teleportation or accross the field very fast. Now marines are almost on the edge of being "kicked out" of the competitive play so its value is not as high as we formerly expected.
I think in the current meta, the major factor defining "tough" becomes either hard to hit, inv saves or FnP, or even just cheap enough in points that lossing lots of them does not matter. in such a situation a further AP-1 is good but not great.
Agreed, I played a game not too long ago where an Eldar army deep-struck in Fire Dragons to try and blow up a DDA. My 15 Warriors returned the greeting in kind; AP-2 combined with Solar Pulse made short work of them.
Xachariah wrote: If we're going with wishlists for rules changes instead of talking tactics
No, please. We had finally just gotten back on topic after pages of irrelevant waffling.
If you want to talk Ghost Arks usage, let's stick to current usability... or lack thereof. At the moment, yes, it's just a Warrior ambulance. And as Warriors are currently mediocre, the Ghost Ark by extension is not so great. With all the delivery options we have available it's not even that good as an HQ taxi anymore (I miss Royal Court Disco Inferno Party Bus). We could talk about all the ways they could have made it a better unit, but honestly that does nothing to help anything.
Eh, warriors can be good, but you really have to invest in them. A couple of blobs of warriors supported by a ghost ark and a chronotek + lord + Immortal Pride can be pretty durable and has a huge amount of dps. Remember that ghost arks can buff all units within 3" now instead of just one, so you really just need 1 ark per 1-4 warriors (assuming the warriors surround the ark). If a warrior squad drops below 10 throw them into the ark to get some bodies back in peace. Of course, such a force will require at least 600 points, 2 HQ slots, 1 transport slot and a troops slot. Depending on the game's size, you might not have enough points to get any heavy hitters.
Yes, all of our things cost enough. Reanimation protocols are a part of the model cost, but for the first time ever I feel like it is appropriately costed. This is why cagey play is important for us. If you leave a unit that can be focus fired upon, then you deserve to lose it.
JY2's 6th/7th principle "Maximum Threat Overload" is very important to us. I feel that a Deceiver Drop +VoD, etc plays into this gamestyle... so many threats in their face that they cannot deal.
Mephrit is my go-to battalion.
Usually running x2 10 man Tesla Immortals, x1 Gauss Immortals, tomb blades, and some times destroyers. Pop a warlord with a chronometron and the immortal pride warlord trait.
The destroyers get 16.7% more deadly vs anything with a 2+ or 3+ save. Tesla immortals are just deadly with AP-1. Tesla tomb blades are stupidly good, esp with the stratagem for 1 ap that removes the benefits of cover, which also negates abilities that proc based on being in cover,
How do I get there?? I walk forward...aggressively. And things die. Get them to midfield, and they have a strong field of fire.
They pair very well with the VoD and the Deceiver. Get that rapid fire turn 2 at the latest.
Mephrit is also great against any army that is trying to assault you. Any failed chargers are basically written off as dead.
Assault armies post FAQ xD Also, who are those armies with failed charges? Here's the list of charges I've faced: 3D6, 3'' charges(due to warptime/infiltrate+move equivalents), close range deepstrike. If you're facing anyone who does deepstrike->8/9'' charge (except orks), you are facing bad opponents with bad lists.
"The destroyers get 16.7% more deadly vs anything with a 2+ or 3+ save" that's not good enough to put them into a bad position
"Walk there". Well another army can drive/fly/whatever there. The footslogging troops should really stay at that 24'' tange picking off the closest target. Since if you kill it, nothing else can usually reach you to strike back. You can also deepstrike within 12'' but that can only be done on a single unit with veil. Deceiving doesn't work because 50% of the time you won't go first and the squishy elite tier troops.
I have no idea how you're not dying if you have everything within 12'' of your opponent and Necrons are actually not good durability wise as long as the opponent focuses units from 100% to 0%
If you're going mephrit you have to play very aggressive and you have to plan on ways to get up the board fast.
This is why I think mephrit is going to with best on lists you don't see a lot of. Everyone raves about immortals...a ghost ark with mephrit has almost equivalent firepower to 10 immortals, more movement, more durability....
The monolith, though over costed, has some pretty significant firepower if within 12 inches and it can help with mobility issues. Teleporting in a unit with mephrit is going to be a threat that needs to be addressed.
Tomb blades are going to delete troops and objective holders. Their high mobility will really help.
Three good units in the codex are still good, like DDA ave destroyers, but you can't build the same list as if you were going sautekh or nephrekh.
After all that, I will say mephrit is probably never going to be our most competitive build
So? Deathwatch are the anti-Xenos codex... SM players aren't going to give up their codex rules (including Bobby G) just to rain on our parade. Not when the rules will be useless next to 2/3 of the armies in the game.
At worst, there might be a small detachment of Deathwatch in an army. If you are really worried, you can make them your main target for DDA and Wraiths, etc.
+ Heavy Support +
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
+++ 1999pts +++
Really wish I could fit some Scarabs in with the Nephrekhs, but there's only room for three Fast slots, so no dice.
Maybe switch the forces around, so it's a Sautekh Battalion and a Nephrekh Outrider? Hmm, but then they'd be Sautekh Gauss Immortals (not bad, but not as useful as Neph Tesla Immortals).
I think the detachments are right the way you (and I) have them. The Immortals benefit much more form Nephrek, but more importantly you want 2 HQs in the same detachment as the Detroyers so that they can buff them. In a Sautekh battalion you would have 2 HQs that only buffed 5 man immortal units.
I still don't see the wraith as a good option for this list (despite making it more interesting) for the following reasons:
-My initial idea for the list came form the general agreement that a good Necron list needed (1) a battalion (2) Destroyers, and (3) DDAs. Adding anything different dilutes the power. Wraith were never in contention for being on that list, they are in the B tier with C'tan and Scarabs. Although a list that spams 18 of them may have some merit of it's own.
-We are talking about a list for the most competitive levels of play. A unit of Wraith will put the willies up a lot of players, but are not going to phase (hehe) serious power lists. Another unit of Destroyers, that can't be prevented from getting at least one round of shooting when they deep strike, is bad for anyone.
-Also, if we're discussing potentially tournament winning lists, you don't want to spend a significant amount of points on a unit that can be hard countered in some match ups (you need to win all games). Has anyone brought Wraith vs Magnus, or Ahriman on a disk? I have, and it's not pretty. They are faster than you, they will Death Hex you (no invuls), and they deal 3 flat damage per attack. They are the most extreme examples but any list running Death Hex, Null Zone or, to a lesser extent, Jinx will hard counter Wraith. Dark Reapers + Jinx? ouch.
-With 3 units of Destroyers instead, the list has good alpha strike denial, and a strong beta strike. The Wraith reduce both of these strengths significantly.
If you deep strike all the Destroyers then the only things you are worried about losing to an alpha strike are the DDAs. They will be deployed after 9 of your opponents drops, as far away as possible, with maximum distance between them and the Immortal screens. A unit of Wraith on the other hand would need to be deployed more aggressively in order to pose a threat, making them vulnerable to alphas. You will be giving the opponent something to do on their 1st turn.
The turn 2 (or 1 if you go second against an advancing enemy) beta strike is where this list aims to win big. It's very hard to stop all 3 destroyer units getting at least one turn of shooting. The Wraith on the other hand cannot be expected to get a charge off every game before they are killed, quite often they will never get to attack. The only real threat to the Destroyers before they get to shoot is from something like the Forewarned stratagem. Worst case scenario you will lose one of the Destroyer units when they deep strike. But only one. Having 3 units means that in this scenario 2 will still get to shoot. With the Wraith taking the place of a Destroyer unit, you could lose half your Beta strike to Forewarned.
-Less HQ synergy. This is sort of a minor one as the HQs are still mostly a tax. With the Lord and Overlord Veiling in to join the 2 Destroyer units that aren't benefiting from extermination protocols you are making more of their buffs, thereby reducing the proportion of their cost that can be considered a tax.
-Finally I think it's worth considering the worst case scenarios for each version of the list. How bad are they, and how likely are they?
As previously mentioned one of the biggest problems for either version is having the destroyers shot by units that can intercept deep strikers. This is worse for the Wraith version because both lists want to teleport at least one Destroyer unit.
The next problem is against lists that are very good at screening out deep strikers. The 24" range of destroyers makes that difficult but it can happen. Now you may think that wraith would deter screens from pushing forward, but I don't think they will. The screening units can move forward immediately before your turn 2, meaning that even if the wraith charge them, your deep strike will be pushed back. Also a unit of destroyer that are deployed, or land in your deployment zone turn 1 will do just as good a job of clearing that screen as the Wraith.
For the Wraith list there seems to be a very likely worst case scenario: Your opponent can destroy the Wraith on turn one with their alpha, AND they have a Forewarned type ability- bad times.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Assault armies post FAQ xD Also, who are those armies with failed charges? Here's the list of charges I've faced: 3D6, 3'' charges(due to warptime/infiltrate+move equivalents), close range deepstrike. If you're facing anyone who does deepstrike->8/9'' charge (except orks), you are facing bad opponents with bad lists.
"The destroyers get 16.7% more deadly vs anything with a 2+ or 3+ save" that's not good enough to put them into a bad position
"Walk there". Well another army can drive/fly/whatever there. The footslogging troops should really stay at that 24'' tange picking off the closest target. Since if you kill it, nothing else can usually reach you to strike back. You can also deepstrike within 12'' but that can only be done on a single unit with veil. Deceiving doesn't work because 50% of the time you won't go first and the squishy elite tier troops.
I have no idea how you're not dying if you have everything within 12'' of your opponent and Necrons are actually not good durability wise as long as the opponent focuses units from 100% to 0%
Cool your jets, no reason to get aggressive about it.
I've run into Kraken slingshotted genestealers double moving and advancing into a charge. They bump into a scarab screen. scarabs die. Then the Genestealers die to my troops. Its an effective trade. Dark eldar had the same problem, just found their vehicles annoying to kill.
Destroyers are fast enough to get where they want to be. Depends on the matchup if I run them in Nephrek outrider in DS or Mephrit on the board.
Our troops are some of the best in the game. I feature them heavily, and I give my opponents other things to shoot. Namely, wraiths in a Nephrek outrider going for the first turn charge with the strategem. That way, I get more str 5 shooting goodness. More often than not, they split their fire, and I can usually recover.
Ha, jokes on them. A good Deathwatch player would just ignore our RP by killing us entirely. Which is easy.
Lol fair enough. Even so, this stratagem makes any lucky chance that one of our units does survive much less sweet if they are in range to use it.
At least we didn't get as screwed as the Tau did XD
Anpu-adom wrote: So? Deathwatch are the anti-Xenos codex... SM players aren't going to give up their codex rules (including Bobby G) just to rain on our parade. Not when the rules will be useless next to 2/3 of the armies in the game.
At worst, there might be a small detachment of Deathwatch in an army. If you are really worried, you can make them your main target for DDA and Wraiths, etc.
Yeah, I can't imagine seeing pure Deathwatch armies too often, but with the Anti-Xenos rules I can see a lot of people splashing in a Detachment of them. Honestly not too worried, but something else we have to worry about.
Ha, jokes on them. A good Deathwatch player would just ignore our RP by killing us entirely. Which is easy.
Lol fair enough. Even so, this stratagem makes any lucky chance that one of our units does survive much less sweet if they are in range to use it.
At least we didn't get as screwed as the Tau did XD
Anpu-adom wrote: So? Deathwatch are the anti-Xenos codex... SM players aren't going to give up their codex rules (including Bobby G) just to rain on our parade. Not when the rules will be useless next to 2/3 of the armies in the game.
At worst, there might be a small detachment of Deathwatch in an army. If you are really worried, you can make them your main target for DDA and Wraiths, etc.
Yeah, I can't imagine seeing pure Deathwatch armies too often, but with the Anti-Xenos rules I can see a lot of people splashing in a Detachment of them. Honestly not too worried, but something else we have to worry about.
Combined with their Warlord trait, its an effective anti Markerlight tool. However, now we are getting into Deathwatch Tactica, so let's get back to Necrons. Does anyone that is more familiar with Deathwatch think this is going to be a problem for us, or just a minor inconvenience we will have to face from time to time?
Ha, jokes on them. A good Deathwatch player would just ignore our RP by killing us entirely. Which is easy.
Lol fair enough. Even so, this stratagem makes any lucky chance that one of our units does survive much less sweet if they are in range to use it.
At least we didn't get as screwed as the Tau did XD
Anpu-adom wrote: So? Deathwatch are the anti-Xenos codex... SM players aren't going to give up their codex rules (including Bobby G) just to rain on our parade. Not when the rules will be useless next to 2/3 of the armies in the game.
At worst, there might be a small detachment of Deathwatch in an army. If you are really worried, you can make them your main target for DDA and Wraiths, etc.
Yeah, I can't imagine seeing pure Deathwatch armies too often, but with the Anti-Xenos rules I can see a lot of people splashing in a Detachment of them. Honestly not too worried, but something else we have to worry about.
How did Tau get screwed?
A squad can shrug their markerlights 1 once per round for 1 CP.
Not sure if this has been discussed, but I just listened/watched to a Frontline gaming Twitch video where someone asked Reece if units can move after disembarking from a Monolith or Scythe. Reece apparently had a talk with one of the rules writers about this and the answer is yes!
Why couldn't they just have included it in the FAQ? Typical GW.
Instead they have things like (a bit exaggerated): "I'm color blind and played against a guy with Ultramarines. I later heard that the Ultramarines where green, Can I beat up the guy?".
'Yes, but only if you charge from a flying transport.'
Cmdr_Sune wrote: Not sure if this has been discussed, but I just listened/watched to a Frontline gaming Twitch video where someone asked Reece if units can move after disembarking from a Monolith or Scythe. Reece apparently had a talk with one of the rules writers about this and the answer is yes!
Why couldn't they just have included it in the FAQ? Typical GW.
Instead they have things like (a bit exaggerated): "I'm color blind and played against a guy with Ultramarines. I later heard that the Ultramarines where green, Can I beat up the guy?".
'Yes, but only if you charge from a flying transport.'
Yup, pop out of a monolith within 3 of the hull, and then move as normal, makes for 1" charges if you are willing to pay for the overpriced flying paperweight.
Assault armies post FAQ xD Also, who are those armies with failed charges? Here's the list of charges I've faced: 3D6, 3'' charges(due to warptime/infiltrate+move equivalents), close range deepstrike. If you're facing anyone who does deepstrike->8/9'' charge (except orks), you are facing bad opponents with bad lists.
"The destroyers get 16.7% more deadly vs anything with a 2+ or 3+ save" that's not good enough to put them into a bad position
"Walk there". Well another army can drive/fly/whatever there. The footslogging troops should really stay at that 24'' tange picking off the closest target. Since if you kill it, nothing else can usually reach you to strike back. You can also deepstrike within 12'' but that can only be done on a single unit with veil. Deceiving doesn't work because 50% of the time you won't go first and the squishy elite tier troops.
I have no idea how you're not dying if you have everything within 12'' of your opponent and Necrons are actually not good durability wise as long as the opponent focuses units from 100% to 0%
Cool your jets, no reason to get aggressive about it.
I've run into Kraken slingshotted genestealers double moving and advancing into a charge. They bump into a scarab screen. scarabs die. Then the Genestealers die to my troops. Its an effective trade. Dark eldar had the same problem, just found their vehicles annoying to kill.
Destroyers are fast enough to get where they want to be. Depends on the matchup if I run them in Nephrek outrider in DS or Mephrit on the board.
Our troops are some of the best in the game. I feature them heavily, and I give my opponents other things to shoot. Namely, wraiths in a Nephrek outrider going for the first turn charge with the strategem. That way, I get more str 5 shooting goodness. More often than not, they split their fire, and I can usually recover.
If you think this is aggressive, you haven't been on the internet for as long as I have :p
Anywho, genestealers charging scarabs is just a mistake from him. They should never charge scarabs (early on anyway) if they're getting out of position and not charging another unit without FLY. This way they can easily surround a model and prevent you from leaving combat.
Destroyers being fast enough does not matter here. You're putting them within 12'' range of the enemy. Unless the enemy is very out of position - that's a really bad thing to do and definitelly not worth +1 AP when most things have an invul save.
Our troops are not even close to being best in the game. Mid tier maybe? That's why you don't see heavy troops list doing well in tournaments. Short range. Bad durability. Sure, the dakka is pretty good, but it's not something to write home about either. Troops, HQs are tax for us. As much Fast attack + DDAs as possible + battalion is what makes a good list (IMO)
Combined with their Warlord trait, its an effective anti Markerlight tool. However, now we are getting into Deathwatch Tactica, so let's get back to Necrons. Does anyone that is more familiar with Deathwatch think this is going to be a problem for us, or just a minor inconvenience we will have to face from time to time?
If you think this is aggressive, you haven't been on the internet for as long as I have :p
Anywho, genestealers charging scarabs is just a mistake from him. They should never charge scarabs (early on anyway) if they're getting out of position and not charging another unit without FLY. This way they can easily surround a model and prevent you from leaving combat.
Destroyers being fast enough does not matter here. You're putting them within 12'' range of the enemy. Unless the enemy is very out of position - that's a really bad thing to do and definitelly not worth +1 AP when most things have an invul save.
Our troops are not even close to being best in the game. Mid tier maybe? That's why you don't see heavy troops list doing well in tournaments. Short range. Bad durability. Sure, the dakka is pretty good, but it's not something to write home about either. Troops, HQs are tax for us. As much Fast attack + DDAs as possible + battalion is what makes a good list (IMO)
Oh, I agree, but I put them in the way of the stuff he actually wanted to charge as bait, and he took it.
-4 Only really matters vs a few factions, agreed, but its hardly wasted in my mind.
Our troops will outshoot any other troops in the game in my mind minus guard hordes w/ FRFSRF. Doesn't that make them good by definition?
Necron_Mason wrote: So new Deathwatch Stratagems were teased and I think we might have some trouble on our hands
I hope they have similar "bully" stratagem aginst other Xeno races, to make it more fair. I am both Necron player and Deathwatch player. Lol
Yes, they have a strategem that targets each xenos race. They are in the article on the Warhammer Community site today.
Rather than worry about lower reanimation protocols, Deathwatch can choose a type of battlefield role to get rerolls against. It is going to be annoying because so many of our best units are Fast Attack. Oh, and they have multiple ways to change that battlefield roll mid-game.
If you think this is aggressive, you haven't been on the internet for as long as I have :p
Anywho, genestealers charging scarabs is just a mistake from him. They should never charge scarabs (early on anyway) if they're getting out of position and not charging another unit without FLY. This way they can easily surround a model and prevent you from leaving combat.
Destroyers being fast enough does not matter here. You're putting them within 12'' range of the enemy. Unless the enemy is very out of position - that's a really bad thing to do and definitelly not worth +1 AP when most things have an invul save.
Our troops are not even close to being best in the game. Mid tier maybe? That's why you don't see heavy troops list doing well in tournaments. Short range. Bad durability. Sure, the dakka is pretty good, but it's not something to write home about either. Troops, HQs are tax for us. As much Fast attack + DDAs as possible + battalion is what makes a good list (IMO)
Oh, I agree, but I put them in the way of the stuff he actually wanted to charge as bait, and he took it.
-4 Only really matters vs a few factions, agreed, but its hardly wasted in my mind.
Our troops will outshoot any other troops in the game in my mind minus guard hordes w/ FRFSRF. Doesn't that make them good by definition?
"-4 Only really matters vs a few factions, agreed" Well don't you think 6'' advance and deepstrike matters for destroyers way more often?
Will our troops really outshoot people point for point? I don't know...
Necron Warriors are 12 pts, 1 shot 4 str 1 ap(no specials) with 24'' RF.
Admech Rangers are 7 pts, 1 shot 4 str 0 ap(1 ap on a 6) with 30'' RF.
Durability wise Rangers are -1T and no RP (obvsly) but have auto-cover with canticles or re-roll 1s in shooting
And do you see AdMech (especially troops spam) on top tables? Nope :(
Whatever people say, I'll still be spamming warriors on my tables. In my games (I refuse to play in tournaments), the warriors have been nothing but a nuisance. My friends try to kill them all but fail, every time. I almost always have 90% of my stuff left on the table in the end. Them shooting at warriors is them not shooting at my destroyers and vehicles.
"-4 Only really matters vs a few factions, agreed" Well don't you think 6'' advance and deepstrike matters for destroyers way more often?
Will our troops really outshoot people point for point? I don't know...
Necron Warriors are 12 pts, 1 shot 4 str 1 ap(no specials) with 24'' RF.
Admech Rangers are 7 pts, 1 shot 4 str 0 ap(1 ap on a 6) with 30'' RF.
Durability wise Rangers are -1T and no RP (obvsly) but have auto-cover with canticles or re-roll 1s in shooting
And do you see AdMech (especially troops spam) on top tables? Nope :(
Why would advance ever matter to a destroyer? if you aren't shooting with them, you are not using them well. Deep strike is good, but only useful t2 unless your opponent is aggressive since the beta rules dropped. My meta involves a lot of gunlines I have to move up against, so its value for me is limited.
I've never had issues killing Admech troops in droves (I play against them a lot. The only thing they have that scares me is a squad of double tapping triple phosphor blaster kastellan robots in a Cawl castle.) We have stratagems to remove the benefits of cover, which comes in handy pretty often vs anything dug in. Aggressive needs to be the way to handle that strategy. Destroyers fill that role well.
Troop spam? No, not really, but 3x10 mephrit immortals is the core of most of my lists, and they don't generally disappoint me.
Well you advance with destroyers if you're not in range of anything important anyway or to get to objectives. With gunlines, you risk destroyers getting blown up turn 1 as it's not easy to hide 6 of them and be able to get them in range the next turn (of anything meaningful anyway).
And you playing against admech friends is not the point here. The points is - if spamming troops, admech troops are a lot better and they're still not great. Meaning warriors are just filler. Immortals are about on par(a bit better than) with warriors. Meaning they're still worse than admech troops. 3x10 immortals or 1x20 2x10 is what you should do. Nothing more, nothing less, IMO
I really think the only reason everyone dislikes warriors is because, if you're going to use them, you have to support them. I think the warriors aren't as "killy" as other things and therefore get a bad rep.
If you support them they're hard to shift and require a lot of attention. You have to have ghost arks and you need to use the ghost arks to keep the warriors from being assaulted.
Are they our most competitive option? No. I don't think it can be argued that they're the max in a min max list because they require a significant points investment for support.
punisher357 wrote: I really think the only reason everyone dislikes warriors is because, if you're going to use them, you have to support them. I think the warriors aren't as "killy" as other things and therefore get a bad rep.
If you support them they're hard to shift and require a lot of attention. You have to have ghost arks and you need to use the ghost arks to keep the warriors from being assaulted.
Are they our most competitive option? No. I don't think it can be argued that they're the max in a min max list because they require a significant points investment for support.
punisher357 wrote: I really think the only reason everyone dislikes warriors is because, if you're going to use them, you have to support them. I think the warriors aren't as "killy" as other things and therefore get a bad rep.
If you support them they're hard to shift and require a lot of attention. You have to have ghost arks and you need to use the ghost arks to keep the warriors from being assaulted.
Are they our most competitive option? No. I don't think it can be argued that they're the max in a min max list because they require a significant points investment for support.
Do you mean landing the Ark in front of them?
You can do that, but I've also heard of people assaulting with the ark to keep a heavy assault unit from stomping your warriors, then falling back the next turn and blasting them again. It's a viable strategy.
Werekill wrote: How many tomb blades do you all tend to run, if any? And what do you outfit them with?
I remember hearing that they would be all-stars of our Codex, but I haven't heard of anyone running them in a while.
The battalion change pushed them out of the running, for me. They're basically more mobile, more durable Immortals, which is great, but I value the CP more.
Werekill wrote: How many tomb blades do you all tend to run, if any? And what do you outfit them with?
I remember hearing that they would be all-stars of our Codex, but I haven't heard of anyone running them in a while.
The battalion change pushed them out of the running, for me. They're basically more mobile, more durable Immortals, which is great, but I value the CP more.
I haven't really done any of the math on the CP's......if you're running sautekh with the WL trait does that compensate enough or not really?
Anyone else checked out the latest GT army lists? Not checked them all but at least a few people are running x3 Tesseract Vaults, Deceiver, Cryptek and a few Scarab swarms for objectives. Its clearly a very strong list due to the mortal wound output, I'd hate to see the Tesseract Vault nerfed because of it though.
Towenaar wrote: Anyone else checked out the latest GT army lists? Not checked them all but at least a few people are running x3 Tesseract Vaults, Deceiver, Cryptek and a few Scarab swarms for objectives. Its clearly a very strong list due to the mortal wound output, I'd hate to see the Tesseract Vault nerfed because of it though.
I think it's been de-bunked that a list like that lives or dies by how much anti-tank your opponent has, or simply by how many big units your opponent brings. C'tan powers are great for dealing mortal wounds to hordes/MSU's, not so much to big vehicles and monsters.
So took stock of the collection I "rebought" (it was my old one from 7th and the guy sold it back to me plus the necron half of Forgebane).
60x warriors 10x tesla immortals 12x deathbringers (I think that's their name?) 6x Lords 1x Imokhet 1x bodyguard guy 6x wraiths 5x named cryptek guy with the spider bottom (used them for crypteks, hated the old models) 5x Lychguard built 10x Lychguard/Praetorian in box 2x scythes 2x monoliths 2x barges/command barges 15x scarab bases 1x DDA 1x Ambulance 2x Stalkers 3-6x tomb blades All necrons in forgebane
I'm sure there's more that i've forgotten. Now I need to make an army out of it. For now, I want to paint:
5x tesla immortals 5x deathbringers 5x scarabs 1x Lord
Not sure how to build the lord yet for such a small force, but I want to get at least this part done by the weekend.
Thoughts on what I can do with it or at least what to paint after this first batch? I really love the idea of a tesla immortal force taking the board.
(also, what Dynasty and WL trait. At the moment I'm thinking Nephrekh so the Destroyers can pop in, but if I free up some points to add another HQ I can give them their own Outrider)
Right now I'd say the main problem might be how to get the Vault into play (assuming I'm going second). Everything else should be able to operate as normal.
What are the 3 swarms for? I'd probably take the full ten Immortals. I assume they're for going after an obj with the O/L and you already have two 5 man squads to babysit others or occupy space, so that I don't see their point.
Sautekh Hyperlogical strategist makes sense. Buy the relic SoL for the Cryptek.
Anyone else find it somewhat imbalanced that the Deathwatch anti-Necron stratagem is a flat -1 (-16.67%) to Reanimation Protocols for a single CP, whereas our boost stratagem is 2 CP to reroll 1's (5.5% increase in reanimates, 8.33% with a Cryptek)? Both single unit, single turn.
Unless DW gain a huge amount of trickery that boosted their survivability or offensive ability, or gain a tremendous amount of point drop, I think we don't need to be too concerned about them. If want to tackle them, just return to Mephrit Dynasty, load up more Immortals / warriors and shoot them dead. They tends to be lower model count so drown them with Silver Phalanx can be an option. Every lost of those marine is at least 19pts down, while lossing one Immortals is 17pts loss.
(also, what Dynasty and WL trait. At the moment I'm thinking Nephrekh so the Destroyers can pop in, but if I free up some points to add another HQ I can give them their own Outrider)
Right now I'd say the main problem might be how to get the Vault into play (assuming I'm going second). Everything else should be able to operate as normal.
Personally, I'd go sautekh because you've only got 8 CP and TVs are super thirsty for them. You'll want to burn 10-12+ not even counting things like character rezzing or quantum shielding stratagems.
* 1 per turn on destroyers
* 1 on damage control
* 2 on Methodical Destruction if there's a priority target (MWBD + Tesseract Vault is a lot of 6s, and you get DDAs hitting on 2s)
* 2-4 on Wrath of the C'tan
I'm not so sure that you'll need to pop in the destroyers, given that you'll have a bunch of big scary threats on the board and they'll be relatively less likely to draw fire.
At what point does a Lord become a better investment for Destroyers rather than Extermination Protocols? With everyone recommending 2 Destroyer units for a Nephreak Battalion/Outrider detachment it is probably best we figure out the best/cheapest way to make them as reliable as possible.
Extermination Protocols let's 1 Destroyer unit Re-roll all failed Hit and Wound rolls for that phase for 1CP. While that is awesome if we are investing 2 Destroyer units and we have access to 8-10 CPs (roughly 11-14 CPs if using Sautekh Warlord trait). So, if you use an average of; 2 CPs re-roll 1 die during 2 different phases a turn, Nephreak Stratagem, Destroyer Stratagem etc that would be 4 CPs gone in your 1st turn already which is a lot of our supply gone.
I'm starting to think that a Lord w/ Thrall of The Silent King, Cryptek w/ VoD in-between 2 Destroyer units might be a better investment in the long run.
We won't be able to re-roll all of our hit and wound rolls but it does stop us from using more CPs.
However, if we are to use Extermination Protocols than I think it is probably better to use Extermination Protocols during the 1st turn or 2 when we have the CPs and once everything tough is gone and our opponent has squishy stuff left we should be able to clear the field without extra help.
Odrankt wrote: At what point does a Lord become a better investment for Destroyers rather than Extermination Protocols? With everyone recommending 2 Destroyer units for a Nephreak Battalion/Outrider detachment it is probably best we figure out the best/cheapest way to make them as reliable as possible.
Extermination Protocols let's 1 Destroyer unit Re-roll all failed Hit and Wound rolls for that phase for 1CP. While that is awesome if we are investing 2 Destroyer units and we have access to 8-10 CPs (roughly 11-14 CPs if using Sautekh Warlord trait). So, if you use an average of; 2 CPs re-roll 1 die during 2 different phases a turn, Nephreak Stratagem, Destroyer Stratagem etc that would be 4 CPs gone in your 1st turn already which is a lot of our supply gone.
I'm starting to think that a Lord w/ Thrall of The Silent King, Cryptek w/ VoD in-between 2 Destroyer units might be a better investment in the long run.
We won't be able to re-roll all of our hit and wound rolls but it does stop us from using more CPs.
However, if we are to use Extermination Protocols than I think it is probably better to use Extermination Protocols during the 1st turn or 2 when we have the CPs and once everything tough is gone and our opponent has squishy stuff left we should be able to clear the field without extra help.
What do you guys think?
I haven't tried using 2 units of Destroyers yet, since I've always liked to spread my points around, but even though a lord is a decent pair with Destroyers (much better than a Destroyer lord funny enough)
It's hard to really replicate the awesomeness that is reroll everything for only 1 cp. You could MWBD + lord aura a destroyer unit to have the same effect as EP for a T3 unit, but that's not your ideal target.
The lord aura will help and you should definitly have a lord in range of both the Destroyers and infantry he'll most likely be following around, but it'll not help that much against the T6 or more likely T7/8 targets
you'll be shooting at with the Destroyers.
So yes, a lord will definitely help out and if you can (strategically speaking) keep everything in range without sacrificing points/options than by all means do that, but more often than not the Destroyers need
their higher movement to move around the map instead of being an unmovable firebase. The lord isn't ideal to pair this with (unless you're nephrekh)
Maybe I'm wrong and you could have 2 different targets to minimise this effect. 1 units with EP shoots at the T7/8 target and the one without EP shoots at the T5 elite infantry target you want gone as well.
I think if you have to deal with that T6/7/8 target you do need EP though. For T5 and lower I wouldn't use it especially with a lord nearby.
On an unrelated note.......
What do you guys think of the (Sautekh) Tomb Sentinel? Is it worth taking (or 2) in a Sautekh list?
I do think you need a Sautekh code for it to be viable, but some might argue that its "Heavy D6 S10 -4AP 3D" gun is better than the one on the DDA. It can move around and not care about Low power, and 3 Damage is for a lot of things preferable than D6 where the threat of 1 and 2 is always close...
The Obvious difference is T6 W14 4+ QS compared to T7 W9 3+. They are very Squishy and can easily die to a round of shooting (so having 2 might be better) but they could add quite a bit of value to a Sautekh Alphastrike list. Turn one you have your Deceiver/Monolith/VoD and turn 2 your Deathmarks (maybe not with Sautekh), Flayed Ones, Immortals stepping out of a Monolith/Night Scythe together with the Tomb Sentinel.
I feel for it's points it's not worth it if you can't support it with other targets the enemy has to choose between. He'll still most likely focus the Sentinel down first, if he has any Melta/Lascannons in range, but that'll leave the monolith or other targets in peace.
with only a 12" range you do NEED to DS the thing. You can't have it sneak up the side or harass from the backline. and with the Beta rules, it did lose some power. However, with most of its targets probably behind a screen of chaff you won't always be in range of the tank/T5 3W infantry you want to kill anyway in the first turn. So having it as as reinforcements for when your alphastrike/Teslamortals deals with those screens it is a perfect model to come in afterwards.
I'll stop myself from rambling now though.... What are your thoughts?
(also, what Dynasty and WL trait. At the moment I'm thinking Nephrekh so the Destroyers can pop in, but if I free up some points to add another HQ I can give them their own Outrider) Right now I'd say the main problem might be how to get the Vault into play (assuming I'm going second). Everything else should be able to operate as normal.
That's looking pretty good!
I think Sautekh is a fairly good pick for the list. The extra CPs are always nice as is the stratagem. Methodical Destruction is very good for the Vaults Tesla Spheres, and the Cloak-Tek would be able to use his healing ability on it. It means you can't deep strike your Destroyers, but you may be able to get away with that as your opponent will want to target the Vault with their multi damage weapons. If you go second and the Vault gets focus fired on turn one it will have at least helped keep the Destroyers alive.
An alternative would be Nephrek for the Battalion and Nihilak for the Vault. Nephrek is good for the Scarabs and Tesla Immortals, and lets you deep strike the Destroyers. The Nihilak strat could be fiendish on a Vault, although it doesn't help if you're going second, or can't float onto an objective. You would need to plan accordingly if you're playing a mission that lets you place objectives.
Sautekh seems like the most reliable choice, if not the most exciting. What I like about the list is that even in the worst case scenario, where the Vault doesn't get to deal a ton of damage before being blown up, it can still draw fire from what is otherwise a very strong list.
Edit: Comparing that list to the non-Vault version discussed previously: The previous version would have the upper hand in a battle between the two due to not being too scared of the Vault, and being more than capable of killing it. That doesn't really tell you much about how each list would do vs all comers, but does highlight how the Vault gives a point of failure with no redundancy. The difference in damage output between a third DDA + third Destroyer unit vs the Vault is a close call. The Vault probably wins out defensively and gives you a great "distraction Carnifex".
What do you guys think of the (Sautekh) Tomb Sentinel? Is it worth taking (or 2) in a Sautekh list?
I've used a Sautekh Sentinel quite a lot, and been very impressed with it. I would only take one though as it's a great distraction unit, but you often don't want too many points languishing in reserve. I've used it in a list with deep striking Destroyers and veiled Gauss Immortals which gives a nice combination of units to drop into the opponents backfield.
One very nice trick you can do with it is to move and advance the sentinel and be able to shoots it's exile cannon as an assault weapon (thanks to the Sautekh code), then play the Adaptive Subroutines strat to let you charge afterwards.
Odrankt wrote: At what point does a Lord become a better investment for Destroyers rather than Extermination Protocols? With everyone recommending 2 Destroyer units for a Nephreak Battalion/Outrider detachment it is probably best we figure out the best/cheapest way to make them as reliable as possible.
Extermination Protocols let's 1 Destroyer unit Re-roll all failed Hit and Wound rolls for that phase for 1CP. While that is awesome if we are investing 2 Destroyer units and we have access to 8-10 CPs (roughly 11-14 CPs if using Sautekh Warlord trait). So, if you use an average of; 2 CPs re-roll 1 die during 2 different phases a turn, Nephreak Stratagem, Destroyer Stratagem etc that would be 4 CPs gone in your 1st turn already which is a lot of our supply gone.
I'm starting to think that a Lord w/ Thrall of The Silent King, Cryptek w/ VoD in-between 2 Destroyer units might be a better investment in the long run.
We won't be able to re-roll all of our hit and wound rolls but it does stop us from using more CPs.
However, if we are to use Extermination Protocols than I think it is probably better to use Extermination Protocols during the 1st turn or 2 when we have the CPs and once everything tough is gone and our opponent has squishy stuff left we should be able to clear the field without extra help.
What do you guys think?
With MWBD, rerolling 1s to hit and wound is near identical to EP. You don't get to reroll 2s to wound on medium T targets.
Problem is T6 and up. With EP you can expect to kill a Leman Russ, with a lord nearby, and MWBD, that is no longer the case.
Odrankt wrote: At what point does a Lord become a better investment for Destroyers rather than Extermination Protocols?
This depends on the toughness of what you're shooting. A lord is always 16.66% more damage for the units it buffs, multiplicatively. Extermination Protocols (ignoring the hit rerolls) is varied. Although, remember that an overlord is 25% more damage.
Against T3, it's 16.66% more damage (since it's only rerolling 1s).
Against T4-5, it's 33.33% more damage.
Against T6 it's 50% more damage.
Against T7+ it's 66.66% more damage.
Against theoretical T12+, it would be 83.33% more damage.
So, your lord is better than fine if you're killing hordes of cultists or something. In that case, the 2xMWBD stratagem is more bang for your buck than extermination protocols. But if you're using destroyers as a T6 or T7+ killer, then there's no substitute for extermination protocols.
Also, one cool thing about Extermination Protocols is that it lets the Destroyers go off unsupported. The unit is still running at 190% efficiency (against T7) without needing to slow down for characters. This means it can fly around to contest objectives, position itself to charge enemy LRBTs to reduce next turn firepower, or charge infantry and tri-point them so you can't get shot next turn. The unit that's getting support is much more limited in where it can go, lest it get out of range of the Lord/MWBD/Cryptek range.
Odrankt wrote: At what point does a Lord become a better investment for Destroyers rather than Extermination Protocols?
I've been thinking about that myself.
Got the idea to have a Lord w/ Veil take a unit of Gauss Immortals up the same turn my two Destroyer units drop (one Destroyer group comes in close enough behind the Lord to get his wound reroll buff, the other one further away gets Extermination Protocols on it, Scarabs running up the first turn to screen for them).
So like
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. D D . . . . I I
. D D . . . L . I . . . . . . . . . X
. D D . . . . I I
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. D D . . . S
. D D . . . S . . . . . . . . . . . X
. D D . . . S
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Someone would have to run the numbers to see what the actual difference in damage output would be, though.
Regarding everyone's replies. It would seem that for turn 1 it is better to pop Extermination Protocols to destroy the thing you fear most and once everything T6+ is destroyed it is perfectly okay to rely on a Lord as long as your not restricted by the foot slogging Lord. Which can be dealt with if in a Nephrekh detachment, if it is the Warlord with Thrall of the Silent King and/or VoD by itself or Cryptek/Overlord.
I suppose we could Drop 1 Destroyer unit in cover to use EP Turn 1. Then on T2 drop the 2nd Destroyer unit and VoD the Lord and anything else you want? Could also use the Deceiver if you didn't want the 2nd Destroyer unit in DS.
So, your lord is better than fine if you're killing hordes of cultists or something. In that case, the 2xMWBD stratagem is more bang for your buck than extermination protocols. But if you're using destroyers as a T6 or T7+ killer, then there's no substitute for extermination protocols.
The only issue with this statement is that most people are now bring 2-3 DDAs in their list. So, technically we already have a way of dealing with anything T6+ and up as well as anything else. Plus, the Gauss Arrays on the DDa as well.
Realistically. If we can use DDAs to destroy T6 and have Destroyers destroy T5 and lower with help from an Overlord and Lord. Do we really need to use EP that much?
Realistically. If we can use DDAs to destroy T6 and have Destroyers destroy T5 and lower with help from an Overlord and Lord. Do we really need to use EP that much?
Yes. Every turn. In my experience 2-3 DDAs does not remove all of an opponents tough units quickly enough, and I still find myself shooting Destroyers at T7.
Odrankt wrote: Realistically. If we can use DDAs to destroy T6 and have Destroyers destroy T5 and lower with help from an Overlord and Lord. Do we really need to use EP that much?
I second a yes. Destroyers are absurdly efficient with EP.
Take a T8, 3+ target for example.
A 193 point DDA throws out 5.44 wounds on average from it's main gun.
200 points of 4 destroyers throws out 5.18 wounds on average unsupported... 6.05 with a lord, 6.48 with MWBD, 7.56 with both.
200 points of 4 destroyers with Extermination Protocols is 9.88 wounds.
Your 6 destroyers in the enemy's face with Extermination Protocols is 14.8 wounds. The entire wing of 3xDDAs sitting in the back is only doing 16.3.
Odrankt wrote: Realistically. If we can use DDAs to destroy T6 and have Destroyers destroy T5 and lower with help from an Overlord and Lord. Do we really need to use EP that much?
I second a yes. Destroyers are absurdly efficient with EP.
Take a T8, 3+ target for example.
A 193 point DDA throws out 5.44 wounds on average from it's main gun.
200 points of 4 destroyers throws out 5.18 wounds on average unsupported... 6.05 with a lord, 6.48 with MWBD, 7.56 with both.
200 points of 4 destroyers with Extermination Protocols is 9.88 wounds.
Your 6 destroyers in the enemy's face with Extermination Protocols is 14.8 wounds. The entire wing of 3xDDAs sitting in the back is only doing 16.3.
If you are up against AM with 4-5 T8 vehicles, then you probably have to throw everything against them.
Otherwise you could have the DDAs shoot first, and if you're happy with the result and want to focus at T6 or lower, then you could save the EP CP for later and have the destroyers shoot at that other things where it makes less a difference
Just bring the flexibility to the table and you should be in a good position.
Yep, definitely a case of "Why not both?"
(or "all", really)
2-3 DDAs 2-3 Destroyer Cults
Problem then is, if you've gone all in that's almost 1500 points right there for those six units. Factor in the requisite 2x HQ & 3x Troops and you're already basically out of points.
(this list was in fact already posted a page or two back but I don't know how it would be able to handle itself against a lot of the current meta. Anyone tried it yet who can report back?)
Personally I prefer a bit more flexibility... though I don't know how efficient using points on Scarabs/Tomb Blades/Wraiths instead of max Destroyers/DDAs would be.
The other issue I still find myself running into is sorting my units into the best matching Dynasties and then deciding which one I want in the Battalion and which one I want in the Outrider/Spearhead.
I want my Destroyers to be Nephrekh
And I want my DDAs to be Sautekh
But then which one do I want my Immortals run as?
And which HQ is best to go with them under each Dynasty?
Ugh, decisions.
skoffs wrote: Yep, definitely a case of "Why not both?"
(or "all", really)
2-3 DDAs 2-3 Destroyer Cults
Problem then is, if you've gone all in that's almost 1500 points right there for those six units. Factor in the requisite 2x HQ & 3x Troops and you're already basically out of points.
(this list was in fact already posted a page or two back but I don't know how it would be able to handle itself against a lot of the current meta. Anyone tried it yet who can report back?)
Personally I prefer a bit more flexibility... though I don't know how efficient using points on Scarabs/Tomb Blades/Wraiths instead of max Destroyers/DDAs would be.
The other issue I still find myself running into is sorting my units into the best matching Dynasties and then deciding which one I want in the Battalion and which one I want in the Outrider/Spearhead.
I want my Destroyers to be Nephrekh
And I want my DDAs to be Sautekh
But then which one do I want my Immortals run as?
And which HQ is best to go with them under each Dynasty?
Ugh, decisions.
Looking at it on paper, if you run Gauss Immortal, I'd think Sautekh hands down. Being able to advance and shoot your -2AP weapons is pretty huge (even at the -1 to hit), allowing them to get into place for Rapid Fire but still being able to shoot.
I've run a DLord with 2 units of Nephrekh Destroyers a few times with pretty good results. I hide one unit with the strat, and the DLord baby sits the other, and then use Extermination Protocols on the hidden unit when I bamf them onto the table.
skoffs wrote: Yep, definitely a case of "Why not both?" (or "all", really)
2-3 DDAs 2-3 Destroyer Cults
Problem then is, if you've gone all in that's almost 1500 points right there for those six units. Factor in the requisite 2x HQ & 3x Troops and you're already basically out of points. (this list was in fact already posted a page or two back but I don't know how it would be able to handle itself against a lot of the current meta. Anyone tried it yet who can report back?)
Personally I prefer a bit more flexibility... though I don't know how efficient using points on Scarabs/Tomb Blades/Wraiths instead of max Destroyers/DDAs would be.
The other issue I still find myself running into is sorting my units into the best matching Dynasties and then deciding which one I want in the Battalion and which one I want in the Outrider/Spearhead. I want my Destroyers to be Nephrekh And I want my DDAs to be Sautekh But then which one do I want my Immortals run as? And which HQ is best to go with them under each Dynasty? Ugh, decisions.
I don't think those 6 units coming to 1500 is problem. 500pts is just enough for the HQ and Troops. I'd call it serendipitous! I'm with you on preferring more flexibility though, as that list would get a bit dull. Diversifying will probably reduce it's effectiveness however.
I have the same conundrum regarding Dynasties and detachments in every list. Sautekh Battalion and Nephrek Outrider, or Nephrekh Battalion and Sautekh Spearhead?
It usually comes down to what the troops are. If I'm going for the minimum 3x5 Tesla Immortals then it's Nephrekh for the Battalion. If I'm taking larger units then I want Sautekh.
There's no hard and fast rule though, it depends on the list.
HQ's tend to be determined by the detachment choice. If I'm taking more troops and having a Sautekh battalion then it's an Overlord(maybe Immotekh) and a Cryptek to buff them, with a Dlord for the Nephrekh Outrider. In a Nephrekh battalion the HQ's tend to be something to buff the Destroyers, while the Cloaktekh is an obvious choice for the Sautekh Spearhead.
I finally found a use to lychguards.
Fought against a list, basicaly all scouts + Guilliman.
Ok the guy came to the game room before me, the table was set up favorably so he could put all his list inside one building, and he won the initiative. Yet did not won my much. My list wasn't optimised, i tried 2 bataillons of 5 man immortal squads. Also used gauss, which i will not do again.
Turn 1 he shot down my nightbringer, had to use a reroll so he doesn't blow up in my ranks, then proceeded to shoot down my CCD, who was equiped with voidreaper and honorable combatant (see the link with nightbringer?) and left it at 1HP. I had a cloacktek nearby though.
skoffs wrote: Yep, definitely a case of "Why not both?"
(or "all", really)
2-3 DDAs 2-3 Destroyer Cults
Problem then is, if you've gone all in that's almost 1500 points right there for those six units. Factor in the requisite 2x HQ & 3x Troops and you're already basically out of points.
(this list was in fact already posted a page or two back but I don't know how it would be able to handle itself against a lot of the current meta. Anyone tried it yet who can report back?)
Personally I prefer a bit more flexibility... though I don't know how efficient using points on Scarabs/Tomb Blades/Wraiths instead of max Destroyers/DDAs would be.
The other issue I still find myself running into is sorting my units into the best matching Dynasties and then deciding which one I want in the Battalion and which one I want in the Outrider/Spearhead.
I want my Destroyers to be Nephrekh
And I want my DDAs to be Sautekh
But then which one do I want my Immortals run as?
And which HQ is best to go with them under each Dynasty?
Ugh, decisions.
I don't think those 6 units coming to 1500 is problem. 500pts is just enough for the HQ and Troops. I'd call it serendipitous! I'm with you on preferring more flexibility though, as that list would get a bit dull. Diversifying will probably reduce it's effectiveness however.
I have the same conundrum regarding Dynasties and detachments in every list. Sautekh Battalion and Nephrek Outrider, or Nephrekh Battalion and Sautekh Spearhead?
It usually comes down to what the troops are. If I'm going for the minimum 3x5 Tesla Immortals then it's Nephrekh for the Battalion. If I'm taking larger units then I want Sautekh.
There's no hard and fast rule though, it depends on the list.
HQ's tend to be determined by the detachment choice. If I'm taking more troops and having a Sautekh battalion then it's an Overlord(maybe Immotekh) and a Cryptek to buff them, with a Dlord for the Nephrekh Outrider. In a Nephrekh battalion the HQ's tend to be something to buff the Destroyers, while the Cloaktekh is an obvious choice for the Sautekh Spearhead.
2DDA 2 Destroyers is good enough, you can have enough 10 tesla immortals to deal with pink horrors and the like. More than that, i call wasted points and you get vulnerable vs swarm armies. Even with that list i had trouble vs the classic Magnus list.
3 DDA 0 destroyers is good enough also. Use Nihkalah for DDA with a small spearhead detachment and a cloaktek. Not even 700pts. 3D6 shots hit on 3 reroll 1s, usually wound on 3 if not 2s. It's really about the 72'' range, you deploy as far back as you can and blast your enemy from afar. You force him to advance and get out of his preferred hideouts. Start advancing your warriors / immortals on turn 3.
On an objective scenario, i used the deceiver. A lucky shot i grand illusioned 3 DDA right in his face. You also get 60 rapid fire shots that rerolls 1s
The problem i have with destroyers is that really good players often bring small 5-man disposable squads and advance them 18'' from their main forces. You can't VOD/ deepstrike anywhere to hit your preferred target. Plus if people keep swarming destroyers like this, you can bet they will be hit my the nerf bat next october! I'll bet 2CP extermination protocols.
Da W wrote: I finally found a use to lychguards.
Fought against a list, basicaly all scouts + Guilliman.
Ok the guy came to the game room before me, the table was set up favorably so he could put all his list inside one building, and he won the initiative. Yet did not won my much. My list wasn't optimised, i tried 2 bataillons of 5 man immortal squads. Also used gauss, which i will not do again.
Turn 1 he shot down my nightbringer, had to use a reroll so he doesn't blow up in my ranks, then proceeded to shoot down my CCD, who was equiped with voidreaper and honorable combatant (see the link with nightbringer?) and left it at 1HP. I had a cloacktek nearby though.
Just 5 lychguards would have foiled his plans.
[
You didnt have them bubblewrapped? I cant remember how many wounds the CCB has, but the Nightbringer should not have been targettable unless he killed all the closest units around it.
2DDA 2 Destroyers is good enough, you can have enough 10 tesla immortals to deal with pink horrors and the like. More than that, i call wasted points and you get vulnerable vs swarm armies. Even with that list i had trouble vs the classic Magnus list.
The 3x DDA, 3x Destroyers list would be a little weaker vs swarms, but I think it can still handle them. The Flayers on the DDAs + 15 Tesla Immortals are decent against hordes, and the Destroyers will still put down 15 GEQ each volley. Mass invul saves are a bigger concern I think, nurgle demons would be tough to chew through.
As for screening units pushing back the Destroyers: it is an issue, but it would require more than a few 5 man scout units to really cause a problem. You may need to jump the DDAs forward for rapids or deploy some destroyers on the board. It needs testing, but I'm not going to invest in 18 Destroyers. Like you say, they might get nerfed.
Da W wrote: I finally found a use to lychguards.
Fought against a list, basicaly all scouts + Guilliman.[
You didnt have them bubblewrapped? I cant remember how many wounds the CCB has, but the Nightbringer should not have been targettable unless he killed all the closest units around it.
If he was facing mostly scouts, bubblewrapping does nothing. Having Lychguard would have let him soak up the wounds coming in from the sniper rifles.
What would scouts do? Are they able to target characters that aren't the closest model? And exactly how do scouts kill both those models in 1 turn? (practically)
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: HQ's tend to be determined by the detachment choice. If I'm taking more troops and having a Sautekh battalion then it's an Overlord(maybe Immotekh) and a Cryptek to buff them, with a Dlord for the Nephrekh Outrider. In a Nephrekh battalion the HQ's tend to be something to buff the Destroyers, while the Cloaktekh is an obvious choice for the Sautekh Spearhead.
Did we ever come to a conclusion on whether Imotekh was actually worth it?
Yes, he does some cool things, but he costs as much as 4 Destroyers (who, I guess if we go by the comparison to DDAs above, are now our unit of measurement to quantify whether something is points efficient or not).
They can all equip Sniper Rifles. Against the NB, they would need 6s to wound, but those would also cause a MW in addition to a regular one. Roundabout Girdlewearer lets them reroll all their failed hit and wound rolls.
Then I would really have hoped to get some terrain in my deployment area to hide them behind for at least the first turn... I don't think I would even want to play against that list. Where's the fun and strategy?
I think for future games I am going to set aside 1000pts of my lists just for DDA and Destroyer combos e.g. 3 DDAs + 1 destroyer unit, 2 DDAs + 2 Destroyer units etc and use the remainder to build a Battalion or something I specifically want like 5 man tesla mortal in a Nephreak Battalion.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: HQ's tend to be determined by the detachment choice. If I'm taking more troops and having a Sautekh battalion then it's an Overlord(maybe Immotekh) and a Cryptek to buff them, with a Dlord for the Nephrekh Outrider. In a Nephrekh battalion the HQ's tend to be something to buff the Destroyers, while the Cloaktekh is an obvious choice for the Sautekh Spearhead.
Did we ever come to a conclusion on whether Imotekh was actually worth it?
Yes, he does some cool things, but he costs as much as 4 Destroyers (who, I guess if we go by the comparison to DDAs above, are now our unit of measurement to quantify whether something is points efficient or not).
I think Emotekh is cool and is bad-ass but not sure if he is suited for the competitive scene. He gives an Extra CP, can MWBD twice, calls a storm and what not but If I am sinking 200pts into a HQ I want something that is an combination of a Lord and an Overlord. Not an Overlord with better Overlord buffs. For 150ish point we can get an Overlord and Lord that lets 1 unit have +1 advance, charge and hit, all <dynasty> infantry units re-roll 1s, can both hold their own in CC and lets us get 3 Scarabs with points left over and access to relics and Warlord traits.
Emotekh is probably better off for Narrative, Friendly, Apocalypse type games imo.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: HQ's tend to be determined by the detachment choice. If I'm taking more troops and having a Sautekh battalion then it's an Overlord(maybe Immotekh) and a Cryptek to buff them, with a Dlord for the Nephrekh Outrider. In a Nephrekh battalion the HQ's tend to be something to buff the Destroyers, while the Cloaktekh is an obvious choice for the Sautekh Spearhead.
Did we ever come to a conclusion on whether Imotekh was actually worth it? Yes, he does some cool things, but he costs as much as 4 Destroyers (who, I guess if we go by the comparison to DDAs above, are now our unit of measurement to quantify whether something is points efficient or not).
My conclusion on Immotekh before using him was that he isn't worth it. Having played with him now I'm not so sure. Firstly your comparison to 4x Destroyers isn't exactly fair. I'd say that it costs you 2 destroyers to upgrade the Overlord you probably had to take anyway. I would never drop destroyers to make this upgrade but that isn't always the choice you're faced with. Also, everything in the codex looks bad compared to equal points of destroyers.
He needs to be fielded with full strength Immortal units. When he is there are three things I found that make him special:
1) He is very good for triggering Methodical Destruction. To the point that I found the Stratagem a lot more usable when he's in the list. 1st turn he hits a big target with the storm and your DDAs follow up hitting on 2's. Later his staff puts wounds on an infantry unit and you follow up with Tesla immortals getting extra shots on a 4+ (MD and MWBD). MD is a lot less efficient without him.
2) as well as the +1CP he grant's he also saves you another one per turn that you would use for a second MWBD. 2 overlords would do the same slightly cheaper but they lose out when the other two advantages are taken into account.
3) in the late game, when things get messy, he can be a real boss, dealing decent damage and refusing to die. He got stuck in against khorne berzerkers in one game and did well. He'll hold up against anything that lacks AP. He actually beat Kharn the Betrayer 1 on 1 in that game but obviously that was a fluke.
Definitely not an auto include though. It comes down to how a given list is fitting together and whether it suits him.
Edit: I'm not talking top tier lists here. I don't see him rocking the tourney scene.
How are people constantly finding these match-ups were they can spend 2 CP willy nilly and are fighting some insane big dude/blob that takes 3-4 units shooting at him to kill him? Because otherwise that strat is not worth it at all.
I much more often find myself needing a deepstrike to not get a squishy unit like destros wiped off the board and the 6'' advance to get to objectives, behind LoS with weak units, etc
rvd1ofakind wrote: How are people constantly finding these match-ups were they can spend 2 CP willy nilly and are fighting some insane big dude/blob that takes 3-4 units shooting at him to kill him? Because otherwise that strat is not worth it at all.
Making Tesla explode on a 4+ is 100% worth it vs a Nid or Ork Swarm that is immune to Morale checks. It could be the difference between being able to shoot next turn or being stuck in/falling back from melee.
rvd1ofakind wrote: For 2 CP? And a requirement? I can blow up a swarm with 2 units most of the time anyway with just MWBD
This is kind of why I like Immotekh. I think +1 to hit is worth 1CP per unit. If Immo triggers the strat then you only need 2 other units combining fire to make it worth it. Otherwise you are combining 3 "proper" units fire.
E.g. The storm + 2 DDAs seems worth it. His staff + 2 units of tesla somethings seems worth it.
This is stuff I only came to think after using him in games.
The Abyssal staff on a normal HQ is another option but Immos extra 6" range, and a stat line that allows for more ballsey positioning makes a big difference.
Never said the strat was a requirement, just that it's worth the 2CP, as a 10 man unit of Immortals with MWBD getting to use that strat can, on a slightly above average roll or having a Lord backing them up, wipe out a unit of 25-30 by themselves.
2DDA 2 Destroyers is good enough, you can have enough 10 tesla immortals to deal with pink horrors and the like. More than that, i call wasted points and you get vulnerable vs swarm armies. Even with that list i had trouble vs the classic Magnus list.
The 3x DDA, 3x Destroyers list would be a little weaker vs swarms, but I think it can still handle them. The Flayers on the DDAs + 15 Tesla Immortals are decent against hordes, and the Destroyers will still put down 15 GEQ each volley. Mass invul saves are a bigger concern I think, nurgle demons would be tough to chew through.
As for screening units pushing back the Destroyers: it is an issue, but it would require more than a few 5 man scout units to really cause a problem. You may need to jump the DDAs forward for rapids or deploy some destroyers on the board. It needs testing, but I'm not going to invest in 18 Destroyers. Like you say, they might get nerfed.
My dream list would include a Vault, two DDAs, two full strength Destroyer units, Imotekh, a Cloak-tek, a Lord, and a bunch of Tesla Immortals with a sprinkling of Scarabs... but unfortunately I just can't seem to get it to fit inside of 2000 points (not without seriously gimping the Destroyers down to 4 models per unit).
I think at this point it's going to have to be a case of,
Either a Vault OR Imotekh + lots of Immortals. Not both.
But in lieu of taking Destroyers under Nephrekh for CT deep strike,
how viable is Veiling them up turn one with a Chrono-Tek?
Pro: turn one alpha!
Con: and now they're sitting in front of your opponent's entire army by themselves after having just smoked something off the table.
Seems like an expensive kamikaze stunt, but could it be worth it?
Thinking of having the Deceiver and Nightbringer together (or transcendant to throw one more power a turn, but i like the NB's shooting attack). Still cheaper than TVault.
Deciver would definitly have Cosmic fire, potentially hitting every unit within 9''.
Both would grand illusion together, and if i can i would bring like 20 warriors for screening. Or scarabs to blow up for extra MW if you have CP to spare. With scarabs that's 500pts on the enemy's flank, he still have 1500pts to worry about in front of him. (Or perhaps you can have another 300-600 points of destroyers deepstiking on the other side, but that's another thing.)
Cast C'Tan powers as long as you can. Spend CP to throw a 3rd (or 4rth) a round.
Since Deciver is the worst of all three once your grand illusion trick is done, he's the chosen one to go on suicide mission. 8'' forward + D6'' advance if needed, or charge if doable, he should get in range to throw cosmic fire, doing D3 wound to anything in 9'' on 4+.
Then should he get killed (which he will), he will blow up on 4+, use CP to reroll if needed, doing still D3 wound to anything in 3''.
Nightbringer, i want him to target. Potentially antimatter meteor and/or times arrow. The power and his shoot is very good to kill 2-3W armor 2+ infantry. Or go charge the big piece of meat in the room.
So for 425-500 pts that a whole bunch of MW. It is expensive in CP. ANd you can have on eBay for 50$ compared to the T.Vault
But in lieu of taking Destroyers under Nephrekh for CT deep strike,
how viable is Veiling them up turn one with a Chrono-Tek?
Pro: turn one alpha!
Con: and now they're sitting in front of your opponent's entire army by themselves after having just smoked something off the table.
Seems like an expensive kamikaze stunt, but could it be worth it?
Depending on your terrain set up, they could end up surviving. If you can Veil them into cover they'll be 2+ Sv, or if you can set them up with some LOS blocking terrain intervening chunks of the opposing army you either force them to move to deal with your Destroyers or concentrate on the threat their units can see.
skoffs wrote: My dream list would include a Vault, two DDAs, two full strength Destroyer units, Imotekh, a Cloak-tek, a Lord, and a bunch of Tesla Immortals with a sprinkling of Scarabs... but unfortunately I just can't seem to get it to fit inside of 2000 points (not without seriously gimping the Destroyers down to 4 models per unit).
I think at this point it's going to have to be a case of,
Either a Vault OR Imotekh + lots of Immortals. Not both.
But in lieu of taking Destroyers under Nephrekh for CT deep strike,
how viable is Veiling them up turn one with a Chrono-Tek?
Pro: turn one alpha!
Con: and now they're sitting in front of your opponent's entire army by themselves after having just smoked something off the table.
Seems like an expensive kamikaze stunt, but could it be worth it?
I did it. You VoD inside ruins or cover as much as you can. They still have 24'' range, get to a far flank so not all enemy units can fire back at them. They were durable 2 games out of 3. One game it costed 2CP to reroll RP of 1s, which paid cause i got back from 1 to a unit of 5. You DON'T have to strike on T1 either, you can wait.
+ you can make them Sautekh, to advance and shoot, instead of Nephrek which costs 1 CP and does nothing good for destro afterward,
rvd1ofakind wrote: How are people constantly finding these match-ups were they can spend 2 CP willy nilly and are fighting some insane big dude/blob that takes 3-4 units shooting at him to kill him? Because otherwise that strat is not worth it at all.
Making Tesla explode on a 4+ is 100% worth it vs a Nid or Ork Swarm that is immune to Morale checks. It could be the difference between being able to shoot next turn or being stuck in/falling back from melee.
The first +1 to hit is the important step, because not only does give you 2 tesla hits on 1/6 of rolls, it also improves the basic hit ratio to 2+.
This is a hefty 50% increase.
The second +1 to hit only improves tesla, it does not improve the BS since its maxed already. Math says this is a further 22% increase in comparison.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now taking it from 30 hits to 37 isn't bad, its just that the lunacy happens when going from 20 to 30.
So if someone could make a list of each Dynasty code, and which units fit best under them, and why, I'd be your best friend forever. Or at least for an hour
Sautekh - Barge (both variants) with gauss cannon, DDA, wraiths with beamer. Most units like the advance and shoot rule too. Useless on melee units, obviously.
Novokh - Canoptek units, Lychguard, flayed ones, big blobs of warriors, destroyers (shoot first, charge the stragglers and use the rerolls to get some cheeky kills. Combine with D Lord), vehicles (oddly enough. The rerolls offset the poor WS), HQs with melee weapon options especially D Lord and CCB.
Mephrit - Warriors, Immortals (both loadouts), barges, tesla in general, HQs with Staff of Light, CCB with SoL and Tesla cannon, Deathmarks, Tomb Blades, Wraiths with casters
Nihilakh - DDA and probably tesla immortals and anni barge. Tesla has a naturally long effective range with a nice RoF, so you don't have to move as much as with gauss. Rerolls of a 1 gives you a chance to proc a 6. If you can park an Anni barge or carbine immortals somewhere safe you can churn out quite a few shots, and in this case an anni barge with a gauss cannon would be comparable to a destroyer, and you wouldn't want to move much with it anyway due to the heavy weapon penalty.
Nephrekh - Wraiths (seriously, with that canoptek stratagem you could have something like a 18" move + charge), units with assault weapons (especially tomb blades with tesla or particle), anything that wants to be in melee quickly. Sort of like Novokh, but more utility than offensive. Their weapon is probably the best weapon in the book. I mean, seriously, its filthy good.
Much appreciated! I'm reading it now, but have another question. Without being stupidly over the top, I have a 2k game coming up. i've listed my collection above, but how does this sound for a core? What should I add to it?
Battalion: Mephrit Dynasty
Command Barge: Lightning Field, Tesla Cannon, Staff, Merciless Tyrant Overlord: Voltaic Staff -OR- Veil of Darkness, Staff
20 Warriors 5 Tesla Immortals 5 Tesla Immortals
This only being the beginning of my core, didnt know if this was a solid start or not. I love the Command Barge being a nice answer to all, having 30" range on tesla weapons with the -1 AP being at 15" range and being able to snipe Characters.
Or would it be better to have another blob of warriors, combine the Tesla Immortals and use MWBD on them and switch to the "all weapons are assault when advancing" code? Makes tesla a bit less effective with MWBD bringing them back on par, but it allows me to be aggressive, which I like to do.
Thinking of having the Deceiver and Nightbringer together (or transcendant to throw one more power a turn, but i like the NB's shooting attack). Still cheaper than TVault.
Deciver would definitly have Cosmic fire, potentially hitting every unit within 9''.
Both would grand illusion together, and if i can i would bring like 20 warriors for screening. Or scarabs to blow up for extra MW if you have CP to spare. With scarabs that's 500pts on the enemy's flank, he still have 1500pts to worry about in front of him. (Or perhaps you can have another 300-600 points of destroyers deepstiking on the other side, but that's another thing.)
Cast C'Tan powers as long as you can. Spend CP to throw a 3rd (or 4rth) a round.
Since Deciver is the worst of all three once your grand illusion trick is done, he's the chosen one to go on suicide mission. 8'' forward + D6'' advance if needed, or charge if doable, he should get in range to throw cosmic fire, doing D3 wound to anything in 9'' on 4+.
Then should he get killed (which he will), he will blow up on 4+, use CP to reroll if needed, doing still D3 wound to anything in 3''.
Nightbringer, i want him to target. Potentially antimatter meteor and/or times arrow. The power and his shoot is very good to kill 2-3W armor 2+ infantry. Or go charge the big piece of meat in the room.
So for 425-500 pts that a whole bunch of MW. It is expensive in CP. ANd you can have on eBay for 50$ compared to the T.Vault
Couldn't you save him somehow? Bring wraiths up in front of him?
How would you distribute powers between the three, and which attribute would you pick for Transcendent?
Dunno, what's their job and can you use stratagems? I mean, 6 shield guard may sound like a bad deal, until you realize that with that stratagem they can be pretty durable and can even inflict mortal wounds throughout the entire enemy shooting phase. And they can still kill a lot in CC.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Dunno, what's their job?
I mean, 6 shield guard may sound like a bad deal, until you realize that with that stratagem they can be pretty durable and can even inflict mortal wounds throughout the entire enemy shooting phase.
Realistically, when you pop the stratagem, the enemy will stop shooting at them. However, that alone is advantageous.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Dunno, what's their job?
I mean, 6 shield guard may sound like a bad deal, until you realize that with that stratagem they can be pretty durable and can even inflict mortal wounds throughout the entire enemy shooting phase.
Realistically, when you pop the stratagem, the enemy will stop shooting at them. However, that alone is advantageous.
Yep, it gives them a better chance of recovering models. Which is already a big deal.
I just uploaded my game vs the UltraMarines on Tuesday. If any of you are interested in a very short Batrep than please watch it. link is in the spoiler
I'm still convinced that Nihilakh is the way to go for the Doomsday. I don't find myself moving them unless they somehow got caught in melee, and even if they need to move do I really need it to advance?
A simple Cloaktek with the Nihilakh artifact and I'm good to go.
Odrankt wrote: I just uploaded my game vs the UltraMarines on Tuesday. If any of you are interested in a very short Batrep than please watch it. link is in the spoiler
Dug the shortened battle report. I like watching them on my lunch hour, and end up skipping around alot on vids that basically just record the whole game.
What are you using for recording? If you plan to do more of these and end up filming in similar areas (wide open game stores with crowds of people around), you might want to invest in a directional mic. That will cut out most of the background chatter.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, what is your profile pic? It looks like Immortals with flower guns and I love it
nintura wrote: So if someone could make a list of each Dynasty code, and which units fit best under them, and why, I'd be your best friend forever. Or at least for an hour
I Made 5 1500p lists with the restriction of only using units that benefit most from the code (where possible) I'll try posting them tomorrow.
Odrankt wrote: I just uploaded my game vs the UltraMarines on Tuesday. If any of you are interested in a very short Batrep than please watch it. link is in the spoiler
Dug the shortened battle report. I like watching them on my lunch hour, and end up skipping around alot on vids that basically just record the whole game.
What are you using for recording? If you plan to do more of these and end up filming in similar areas (wide open game stores with crowds of people around), you might want to invest in a directional mic. That will cut out most of the background chatter.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, what is your profile pic? It looks like Immortals with flower guns and I love it
Cheers for the feedback I. Using a Camcorder but it doesn't have an Audio output so I have to record the audio separately on my phone and using a Lavalier microphone. The place I recorded in is a community centre to it's just echos everywhere. I'll do my best to make sure background noise is sorted with
My profile pic is of I'mmortals themed as Flowers. I like to call them "Nectcrons".
Odrankt wrote: I just uploaded my game vs the UltraMarines on Tuesday. If any of you are interested in a very short Batrep than please watch it. link is in the spoiler
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm still convinced that Nihilakh is the way to go for the Doomsday. I don't find myself moving them unless they somehow got caught in melee, and even if they need to move do I really need it to advance?
A simple Cloaktek with the Nihilakh artifact and I'm good to go.
Reroll 1 to hit while stationary is quite okay, since you dont want to move. In objective games this does seldom benefit your army if you are not lucky enough to drop everything in cover and wait for the enemy to aproach.
I prefer Sautekh over Nihilakh as a whole because of the several mentioned advantages to
a) be able to use the low dmg profile of the DDA while moving without penality and get the flayer arrays in range (you still pay for them and they are not that bad)
b) be able to use Methodical Destruction on them and/or other parts of your army
c) use the Sautekh warlord trait for CP regeneration.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm still convinced that Nihilakh is the way to go for the Doomsday.
But if you go stay stationary the whole game you're sacrificing not being able to use your Gauss Flayers which you spent points to take (unless things come to you).
Guess you gotta decide what is more important: being able to reroll 1s for your big gun sitting at the back, or being able to have the Flayers contribute to the battle.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm still convinced that Nihilakh is the way to go for the Doomsday.
But if you go stay stationary the whole game you're sacrificing not being able to use your Gauss Flayers which you spent points to take (unless things come to you).
Guess you gotta decide what is more important: being able to reroll 1s for your big gun sitting at the back, or being able to have the Flayers contribute to the battle.
I think Nihilakh is also better for the DDA. Just keep it stationary when killing anything T6-7+ to use Re-rolling 1s to hit and once your opponent has stuff T4 or less left than you can move the DDA freely. Your losing out on the Re-rolling 1s but I rather have a mobile gun boat shooting all it's gun even if the big gun is on it's lower mode and 4+ to hit.
Sautekh doesn't really help the Gauss Arrays unless you advance your DDA so it all depends on what you want.
Sautekh DDA - Can move freely with no minus modifier but still shoots on the lower profile if moved. Can advance and make all gun types turn in Assault. Access to Sautekh Warlord Traith.
Nihilakh DDA - Gives your DDA slightly better accuracy if kept still. Once all it's targets are destroyed it should be moved to make full use of it's Gauss Arrays even if your giving up the re-rolling 1s and making the Doomsday Cannon have a -1 to hit. Move it to position, keep it still next turn, do that damage, rinse and repeat.
Da W wrote: I finally found a use to lychguards.
Fought against a list, basicaly all scouts + Guilliman.[
You didnt have them bubblewrapped? I cant remember how many wounds the CCB has, but the Nightbringer should not have been targettable unless he killed all the closest units around it.
If he was facing mostly scouts, bubblewrapping does nothing. Having Lychguard would have let him soak up the wounds coming in from the sniper rifles.
Don't forget lychguard can't protect the nightbringwrs due to no dynasty keyword
Odrankt wrote: Sautekh DDA - Can move freely with no minus modifier but still shoots on the lower profile if moved. Can advance and make all gun types turn in Assault. Access to Sautekh Warlord Traith.
Don't forget access to Methodical Destruction (though I don't know what the math is better on, rerolling 1s or hitting on 2+).
The thing that tips the scales more in Sautekh's favor is the Warlord trait. I think it's far too valuable to omit so I try to make sure I have it in every list now.
Nephrekh is looking like my go-to at the moment, so if I throw a Nihilakh Spearhead in I'll still have to find some way to fit a Sautekh HQ in, too. Not impossible, just a hell of a lot easier if I just take a two detachment army.
Odrankt wrote: Sautekh DDA - Can move freely with no minus modifier but still shoots on the lower profile if moved. Can advance and make all gun types turn in Assault. Access to Sautekh Warlord Traith.
Don't forget access to Methodical Destruction (though I don't know what the math is better on, rerolling 1s or hitting on 2+).
The thing that tips the scales more in Sautekh's favor is the Warlord trait. I think it's far too valuable to omit so I try to make sure I have it in every list now.
Nephrekh is looking like my go-to at the moment, so if I throw a Nihilakh Spearhead in I'll still have to find some way to fit a Sautekh HQ in, too. Not impossible, just a hell of a lot easier if I just take a two detachment army.
Forgot about Methodical Destruction. I would say hitting on 2s is pretty good but if we are against any enemies with -1/2 to hit modifiers (looking at your Eldar) then I would say the re-rolling 1s would be better for that situation. How about bringing a THGC Triarch Stalker? Grants re-rolling 1s regardless of anything else and allows you the Sautekh and Nihilakh detachments although you will need to free up space for the TS. but on the bright side your DDAs can move across the field as they like shooting on 2s re-rolling 1s. as well as anything else that shoots at the same target.
I agree on the Sautekh Warlord Trait as well. When we only got 3Cps from a Battalion it wasn't a good investment but now that we get 5CPs from the get-go we can potentially have another 3-4 CPS if we roll well. The only reason I will never take the Grand Strategist is if i am using Immortal Pride for Warrior blobs and lots of them.
Summary: -Unsuprisingly, getting 1st turn + rolling 3 on Grand Illusion= an insane alpha strike. The two Warrior blobs in total killed 5 Hellblasters and 8 Intercessors over two units.
-However, the next turn one Warrior blob was tied up by a rhino, and the turn after that the other one by a Redemptor Dreadnought. While I was happy the dread with his massive plasma gun was no longer a threat to my DDA, he completely neutered my Warriors this way.
-I'm still undecided between a budget-tek or Szeras for my Warrior blobs. Szeras' upgrades vastly improve their performance, a cheap Cryptek is 60 points cheaper while offering the same apart from the upgrades and the extra anti-tank.
-The Tomb Blades performed ok. Their damage out-put is quite good, however I greedily put them in 12" to get the Mephrit bonus and ignore the Ravenguard buff. This resulted in them getting destroyed in one turn by another unit of Hellblasters and Inceptors.
-Ironically, my DDA had little work left with the Rhino and Dread tied up by my Warriors. So I moved him up to help with the enemy Inceptors. Here the close-range Mephrit DDA really put out some nice damage. Even the low-powered gun, with -1 to hit, is still decent thanks to the extra AP.
-Also unsuprisingly; but Telsa Immortals, even with Mephrit, MWBD and Talent for Anilhilation, are not anti-tank. It took them 3 turns to take down a single Rhino.
What I can improve on: -Keep Mephrit Tomb Blades at 24" with Tesla until the time is right. As temping as it is to get within 12", your opponent will throw everything he has at them!
-Bring sufficient anti-tank if you bring warrior blobs. a single cheap transport can tie them up for the rest of the game, so make sure that when you fall the Warriors back, you can destroy it.
Overall, I'm satisfied with the performance if Mephrit. It lead to an extremely powerful alpha-strike with the Deceiver + Warrior blobs, helped out with a lot of the Tesla weaponry and made the DDA suprisingly lethal against enemy infantry.
I tried making lists with units who benefit most from the code. They are not meta friendly, but I think in fluffy games against similar armies could make a fun game. Every list has the appropriate WLtrait and artifact. But it was hard not to take units that didn't benefit. Only Novokh has a special character as I found Anrakyr added enough extra to the list even though he didn't get the code...
Is it correct that a unit of sautekh immortals with tesla, buffed by MWBD or WOC, will score three hits on 4+ when i play the methodical destruction stratagem ?
p5freak wrote: Is it correct that a unit of sautekh immortals with tesla, buffed by MWBD or WOC, will score three hits on 4+ when i play the methodical destruction stratagem ?
Yep. It's a modifier just like MWBD. Which is hilarious.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
torblind wrote: 10 Lychguard without invul would be in desperate need of a delivery mechanism or more threatening targets.
A chronotek might be useful Or a veil.
Those are the only cheap options I can think of. The other delivery methods are pricey.
I mean, they are pretty tough, especially if you abuse LoS, but they still have to get there.
p5freak wrote: Is it correct that a unit of sautekh immortals with tesla, buffed by MWBD or WOC, will score three hits on 4+ when i play the methodical destruction stratagem ?
Correct
Automatically Appended Next Post: Remember, the real advantage is going from 6+ to 5+, as it adds to the benefit of going from 3+ to 2+
The next step is just adding 2 hits sometimes, while the BS is already maxed out
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nagerash wrote: I tried making lists with units who benefit most from the code. They are not meta friendly, but I think in fluffy games against similar armies could make a fun game. Every list has the appropriate WLtrait and artifact. But it was hard not to take units that didn't benefit. Only Novokh has a special character as I found Anrakyr added enough extra to the list even though he didn't get the code...
For Sautekh destroyers would be better than the Doom Scythe, they too benefit nicely from the bonus, with an effective threat range of 40" for their EP attack, could even give them MWBD to mitigate the -1 to hit
Yep.
It's a modifier just like MWBD. Which is hilarious.
Its hilarious. I guess there is no way to add another +1 ?
Doesn't look like it, but you could combine it with the stalker to get some rerolls, which would give you more chances to proc tesla.
Yep, I was about to say,
The only way to improve that is getting a reroll for 1s to-hit.
(if they're being run as Sautekh for Methodical Destruction what options are there available to them apart from the obvious Stalker?)
Yep.
It's a modifier just like MWBD. Which is hilarious.
Its hilarious. I guess there is no way to add another +1 ?
Doesn't look like it, but you could combine it with the stalker to get some rerolls, which would give you more chances to proc tesla.
Yep, I was about to say,
The only way to improve that is getting a reroll for 1s to-hit.
(if they're being run as Sautekh for Methodical Destruction what options are there available to them apart from the obvious Stalker?)
Nothing. If destroyer lords weren't so selfish then you could use them, but GW doesn't want them to buff anything except destroyers.
p5freak wrote: Is it correct that a unit of sautekh immortals with tesla, buffed by MWBD or WOC, will score three hits on 4+ when i play the methodical destruction stratagem ?
Correct
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post: Remember, the real advantage is going from 6+ to 5+, as it adds to the benefit of going from 3+ to 2+
The next step is just adding 2 hits sometimes, while the BS is already maxed out
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nagerash wrote: I tried making lists with units who benefit most from the code. They are not meta friendly, but I think in fluffy games against similar armies could make a fun game. Every list has the appropriate WLtrait and artifact. But it was hard not to take units that didn't benefit. Only Novokh has a special character as I found Anrakyr added enough extra to the list even though he didn't get the code...
For Sautekh destroyers would be better than the Doom Scythe, they too benefit nicely from the bonus, with an effective threat range of 40" for their EP attack, could even give them MWBD to mitigate the -1 to hit
Edit: phone playing a number on me
I thought about that, but Doom Scythes would benefit more + I've always thought the models are awesome and only really viable as Sautekh. So if I'm going to put them anywhere its in that list. Was thinking the same with the Tomb Sentinel, but couldn't find the points.
So I already own 9 Tomb Blades that can be either Tesla or Gauss. But I'm looking at the Particle Beamer and I'm liking them more every time I see them. How many would you guys recommend to have? In their own unit or mixed in with other Gauss/Tesla TBs?
Odrankt wrote: So I already own 9 Tomb Blades that can be either Tesla or Gauss. But I'm looking at the Particle Beamer and I'm liking them more every time I see them. How many would you guys recommend to have? In their own unit or mixed in with other Gauss/Tesla TBs?
I would only ever take them if I need to save points
Nagerash wrote: Doom Scythes would benefit more + I've always thought the models are awesome and only really viable as Sautekh. So if I'm going to put them anywhere its in that list.
If that was the reasoning I'm surprised you didn't give the Mephrit list any Night Scythes (so they can fly up within 12" of a target to give their T.Destructors -1AP).
CCB and destroyers will deepstrike in game, if possible/necessary. Or retreat with VOD. Depending on the situation. CCB will buff destroyers with WOC. Cryptek and overlord will buff the immortals, sautekh for methodical destruction. The 5 model unit i for holding an objective. Novokh cryptek will move forward aggressively with the two 9 model units of scarabs. The other two 4 model units are for objective grabbing/deepstrike denial.
Nagerash wrote: Doom Scythes would benefit more + I've always thought the models are awesome and only really viable as Sautekh. So if I'm going to put them anywhere its in that list.
If that was the reasoning I'm surprised you didn't give the Mephrit list any Night Scythes (so they can fly up within 12" of a target to give their T.Destructors -1AP).
Good point, maybe I should change it to: I've always loved the models in combination with the big freaking gun at the bottom.
I kinda want to go back to the unique "draw a line and hit everything underneath" that was soo awesome and after seeing too many movies with big ass lazors drawing lines in the ground, I was in love.
Nagerash wrote: Doom Scythes would benefit more + I've always thought the models are awesome and only really viable as Sautekh. So if I'm going to put them anywhere its in that list.
If that was the reasoning I'm surprised you didn't give the Mephrit list any Night Scythes (so they can fly up within 12" of a target to give their T.Destructors -1AP).
Good point, maybe I should change it to: I've always loved the models in combination with the big freaking gun at the bottom.
I kinda want to go back to the unique "draw a line and hit everything underneath" that was soo awesome and after seeing too many movies with big ass lazors drawing lines in the ground, I was in love.
That definitely has a nice ring to it!
I'll soon build my third so I can try out the stratagem, don't care if it's not optimal.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: A question regarding Szeras and his buff...If he buffs a unit of Immortals and gives them the +1 BS does that mean TImmortals explode on 5s?
Im asking because if yes, does it mean any MWBD could give them Tesla exploding on 4s?
If you read the rule, there is no reason to expect that it does.
Just like a CCB doesn't explode it's Tesla cannon on 5+ just because it has 2+ BS
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: A question regarding Szeras and his buff...If he buffs a unit of Immortals and gives them the +1 BS does that mean TImmortals explode on 5s?
Im asking because if yes, does it mean any MWBD could give them Tesla exploding on 4s?
If you read the rule, there is no reason to expect that it does.
Just like a CCB doesn't explode it's Tesla cannon on 5+ just because it has 2+ BS
Thanks for that...Somehow i thought he gives a +1 modifier similiar to MWBD
CCB and destroyers will deepstrike in game, if possible/necessary. Or retreat with VOD. Depending on the situation. CCB will buff destroyers with WOC. Cryptek and overlord will buff the immortals, sautekh for methodical destruction. The 5 model unit i for holding an objective. Novokh cryptek will move forward aggressively with the two 9 model units of scarabs. The other two 4 model units are for objective grabbing/deepstrike denial.
The CCB can't take the Veil (infantry only). It *can* take the Lightning Field, however, which is borderline required on it to give it the 4++ inv save it's missing (plus, because the model is big, it has a better chance of inflicting MWs on more things).
It may be worth giving a foot HQ the Veil so he can take the Destroyers up for a surprise Alpha (best on a Chrono-Tek, to help keep them alive, but you could use a Lord instead so you might not have to spend as much CP giving them EP every turn. Though if you DO give them EP they won't need to be given WoC, which would probably be better used on Tesla Immortals anyway).
Don't bother with the Heavy Destroyer, though. Their damage output is actually inferior to regular Destroyers if accounting for EP.
Might also suggest switching some of those Novokh Scarabs out for Wraiths. Better killing power and survivability.
And maybe the CCB would be better in Novokh, actually. Better than a Cryptek, anyway. That HQ choice would be completely wasted in that Dynasty.
CCB and destroyers will deepstrike in game, if possible/necessary. Or retreat with VOD. Depending on the situation. CCB will buff destroyers with WOC. Cryptek and overlord will buff the immortals, sautekh for methodical destruction. The 5 model unit i for holding an objective. Novokh cryptek will move forward aggressively with the two 9 model units of scarabs. The other two 4 model units are for objective grabbing/deepstrike denial.
The CCB can't take the Veil (infantry only). It *can* take the Lightning Field, however, which is borderline required on it to give it the 4++ inv save it's missing (plus, because the model is big, it has a better chance of inflicting MWs on more things).
It may be worth giving a foot HQ the Veil so he can take the Destroyers up for a surprise Alpha (best on a Chrono-Tek, to help keep them alive, but you could use a Lord instead so you might not have to spend as much CP giving them EP every turn. Though if you DO give them EP they won't need to be given WoC, which would probably be better used on Tesla Immortals anyway).
Don't bother with the Heavy Destroyer, though. Their damage output is actually inferior to regular Destroyers if accounting for EP.
Might also suggest switching some of those Novokh Scarabs out for Wraiths. Better killing power and survivability.
And maybe the CCB would be better in Novokh, actually. Better than a Cryptek, anyway. That HQ choice would be completely wasted in that Dynasty.
Unless otherwise specified, distance to a model with a base, is measured to the base. So for the CCB its a destroyer type flyer base, sure its a somewhat larger base, but not as much as one might expect.
CCB and destroyers will deepstrike in game, if possible/necessary. Or retreat with VOD. Depending on the situation. CCB will buff destroyers with WOC. Cryptek and overlord will buff the immortals, sautekh for methodical destruction. The 5 model unit i for holding an objective. Novokh cryptek will move forward aggressively with the two 9 model units of scarabs. The other two 4 model units are for objective grabbing/deepstrike denial.
The CCB can't take the Veil (infantry only). It *can* take the Lightning Field, however, which is borderline required on it to give it the 4++ inv save it's missing (plus, because the model is big, it has a better chance of inflicting MWs on more things).
It may be worth giving a foot HQ the Veil so he can take the Destroyers up for a surprise Alpha (best on a Chrono-Tek, to help keep them alive, but you could use a Lord instead so you might not have to spend as much CP giving them EP every turn. Though if you DO give them EP they won't need to be given WoC, which would probably be better used on Tesla Immortals anyway).
Don't bother with the Heavy Destroyer, though. Their damage output is actually inferior to regular Destroyers if accounting for EP.
Might also suggest switching some of those Novokh Scarabs out for Wraiths. Better killing power and survivability.
And maybe the CCB would be better in Novokh, actually. Better than a Cryptek, anyway. That HQ choice would be completely wasted in that Dynasty.
Unless otherwise specified, distance to a model with a base, is measured to the base. So for the CCB its a destroyer type flyer base, sure its a somewhat larger base, but not as much as one might expect.
If I remember correctly, the latest FAQ gave the barge the hovering ability, meaning that all distances are measured from the model rather than the base.
CCB and destroyers will deepstrike in game, if possible/necessary. Or retreat with VOD. Depending on the situation. CCB will buff destroyers with WOC. Cryptek and overlord will buff the immortals, sautekh for methodical destruction. The 5 model unit i for holding an objective. Novokh cryptek will move forward aggressively with the two 9 model units of scarabs. The other two 4 model units are for objective grabbing/deepstrike denial.
The CCB can't take the Veil (infantry only). It *can* take the Lightning Field, however, which is borderline required on it to give it the 4++ inv save it's missing (plus, because the model is big, it has a better chance of inflicting MWs on more things).
It may be worth giving a foot HQ the Veil so he can take the Destroyers up for a surprise Alpha (best on a Chrono-Tek, to help keep them alive, but you could use a Lord instead so you might not have to spend as much CP giving them EP every turn. Though if you DO give them EP they won't need to be given WoC, which would probably be better used on Tesla Immortals anyway).
Don't bother with the Heavy Destroyer, though. Their damage output is actually inferior to regular Destroyers if accounting for EP.
Might also suggest switching some of those Novokh Scarabs out for Wraiths. Better killing power and survivability.
And maybe the CCB would be better in Novokh, actually. Better than a Cryptek, anyway. That HQ choice would be completely wasted in that Dynasty.
Unless otherwise specified, distance to a model with a base, is measured to the base. So for the CCB its a destroyer type flyer base, sure its a somewhat larger base, but not as much as one might expect.
If I remember correctly, the latest FAQ gave the barge the hovering ability, meaning that all distances are measured from the model rather than the base.
Yep... measure from anywhere on the model.
Back to the list... you are going to have a toughish time finding Destroyers, and since you have no warriors you'll have a hard time finding scarabs (unless you go to Forgeworld and the the really ugly ones).
The CCB can't take the Veil (infantry only). It *can* take the Lightning Field, however, which is borderline required on it to give it the 4++ inv save it's missing (plus, because the model is big, it has a better chance of inflicting MWs on more things).
The CCB can take the VOD. The unit which goes along with it has to be INFANTRY.
It may be worth giving a foot HQ the Veil so he can take the Destroyers up for a surprise Alpha (best on a Chrono-Tek, to help keep them alive, but you could use a Lord instead so you might not have to spend as much CP giving them EP every turn. Though if you DO give them EP they won't need to be given WoC, which would probably be better used on Tesla Immortals anyway).
I want to alpha strike with the CCB and the destroyers, or use the VOD defensively. A chrono-tek cant keep up with destroyers, unless i roll a 5 when advancing, not good. Only two models can keep up, the CCB and the destroyer lord. The destroyer lord is not worth it, if i use EP. The CCB can still buff the destroyers when i run out of CP.
Might also suggest switching some of those Novokh Scarabs out for Wraiths. Better killing power and survivability.
I somewhat disagree. Wraiths are good, but 18 scarabs have 72 attacks, can re-roll failed hit rolls, make additional attacks on 6s (wraiths can also re-roll failed hit rolls, and make additional attacks on 6s, but 4 wraiths only have 12 attacks, there will be a lot less 6s, and less failed hit rolls). Scarabs have lots of wounds, and they are cheap.
And maybe the CCB would be better in Novokh, actually. Better than a Cryptek, anyway. That HQ choice would be completely wasted in that Dynasty.
The cryptek is not wasted as novokh, he is there for the warlord trait, to buff the scarabs, and because he can keep up with them. If necessary i can reanimate the scarabs, the cryptek will help. The CCB cant buff scarabs with WOC.
The ccb can take the VoD, but why would you take the destroyers with you? The destroyers can't really support the ccb if he want to go slice up some dudes, and he does need support. And if you want to go off killing things he really needs a 4++ as I don't think his QS alone will keep him alive against a lot of enemies.
I also don't think the destroyers or ccb need the VoD the most as they have a high movement to get in range already.
CCB and destroyers will deepstrike in game, if possible/necessary. Or retreat with VOD. Depending on the situation. CCB will buff destroyers with WOC. Cryptek and overlord will buff the immortals, sautekh for methodical destruction. The 5 model unit i for holding an objective. Novokh cryptek will move forward aggressively with the two 9 model units of scarabs. The other two 4 model units are for objective grabbing/deepstrike denial.
So, the constructive part of my comment. Here's my recs.
- Swap the CCB to your outrider detachment, and give the CCB Lightning Field instead. CCBs are actually solid in close combat with a field and can support instead of being 85 point Crimson Haze totems.
- Swap your destroyers to outrider too so the CCB has something to support and replace out the heavy destroyer with a normal destroyer. (Yes, if they're using extermination protocols it's not as efficient, but it's better than nothing.)
- Add in a 3xWraith group. To pay for this, remove the excess cryptek, 1 of the scarab groups, and a single immortal for points. (Note, you can't have 4 selections of scarabs under new FAQ anyways)
- Plan on using CP to buy Veil with your Overlord, so you can get a squad of immortals into the fight.
As for the less constructive part of my comment... why pick up necrons to focus so much on Novokh?
For a 423 point detachment, you get 108 attacks, that with Novokh and crimson haze translate to 54+27+20.25 =~101 hits at S3 AP0 D1. All of that can't even kill a unit of Destroyers or Tomb Blades... or a LRBT. Or an ork Boyz squad.
Orks will do well over double that at better BS and toughness.
Hell, imperial guard infantry squads with character support can do that without orders, AND double that with orders, AND can shoot while doing it. With a better save profile. And it's not like it's melee guardsmen are great build sweeping tournaments or anything.
I just don't get why you'd come to necrons to build into our weaknesses. Why not a nice Tesseract Vault list instead or something?
You're right, personal preference is always valid.
But if someone's going to buy an army and wants to know what others think of the list, it still seems important to mention if big parts of it aren't competitive. Like, I love the idea of the obelisk, but I'd still want people to let me know if it's terrible.
I posted this list over in Army Lists, but it would seem most of the Great Phaerons hang out here... and I'd like your opinions/constructive critiques.
#1 - I'm struggling with which HQ should be my warlord and what trait I should assign...
#2 - I'm not completely convinced on the Outrider Dynasties, but I'd like to keep at least 2 detachments the same for Cryptek redundancy...
#3 - Do you think the list is viable/competitive?
Biasn wrote: Hey guys , i've got a question.
Do Units from the auxillary detachement benefit from their chosen Dynasty trait (can use their dynasty strats aswell)?
For example :
Main battallion -> mephrit
auxillery (with wraiths) -> novokh
DeChevalier wrote: I posted this list over in Army Lists, but it would seem most of the Great Phaerons hang out here... and I'd like your opinions/constructive critiques.
#1 - I'm struggling with which HQ should be my warlord and what trait I should assign...
#2 - I'm not completely convinced on the Outrider Dynasties, but I'd like to keep at least 2 detachments the same for Cryptek redundancy...
#3 - Do you think the list is viable/competitive?
You can't take 2 relics on the same character. I would also advice a battalion over 2 or 3 outriders.apart from that, I don't think mephrit is the best code for those units. I'd make Sautekh the Warlord for its trait. And if you want destroyers and blades Nephrekh would be better imo. Mephrit isn't bad for blades, but I think they'd benefit more from nephrekh if you want to keep it at 2 dynasties.
DeChevalier wrote: I posted this list over in Army Lists, but it would seem most of the Great Phaerons hang out here... and I'd like your opinions/constructive critiques.
#1 - I'm struggling with which HQ should be my warlord and what trait I should assign...
#2 - I'm not completely convinced on the Outrider Dynasties, but I'd like to keep at least 2 detachments the same for Cryptek redundancy...
#3 - Do you think the list is viable/competitive?
You can't take 2 relics on the same character. I would also advice a battalion over 2 or 3 outriders.apart from that, I don't think mephrit is the best code for those units. I'd make Sautekh the Warlord for its trait. And if you want destroyers and blades Nephrekh would be better imo. Mephrit isn't bad for blades, but I think they'd benefit more from nephrekh if you want to keep it at 2 dynasties.
Thanks for the quick response.
#1 - What character do I have 2 relics on?
#2 - Why would you advise a Battalion over 2 Outriders?
#3 - Other than the Translocation Crypt Strategem, why do you suggest Nephrekh? Is there a reason for Destroyers to be in Nephrekh, Strategem aside?
Don't quite see destroyers working with nephrekh. But then again, destroyers don't really work that well with most dynasty traits.
Sautekh doesn't really do anything for them, as they rarely have to advance to get into range and they already ignore heavy weapon penalties.
Nihilakh is just useless. They already reroll 1s.
You always want to shoot, so the advance buff from nephrekh is pointless.
Mephrit is nice, but they have to be close to use it. Usually you don't want your destroyers close, unless you are sure they will survive.
Same problem with novokh. You rarely want to charge with them unless you are certain you can win. They do get 2 attacks though, so they sort of benefit from the rerolls.
That said, novokh, sautekh, and mephrit are probably the best choices for them, as they do get mileage out of the traits. Just not as much as you'd think.
Destroyers are weird in that they are strong by themselves, but they don't synergize with traits that well even though they can take them. Sort of like triarch units, except they can actually benefit from buffs and strats.
You'd think there would be a dynastic trait that destroyers would love, but nope. Maybe they will release an outcast supplement that covers flayed one dynasties, destroyer dynasties, and the Empire of the Severed. I doubt it though.
Nagerash wrote:The ccb can take the VoD, but why would you take the destroyers with you? The destroyers can't really support the ccb if he want to go slice up some dudes, and he does need support. And if you want to go off killing things he really needs a 4++ as I don't think his QS alone will keep him alive against a lot of enemies.
The idea was to alpha strike if necessary, or fallback to a safe position. The CCB can keep up with the destroyers, and it can buff them if i run out of CP. The CCB supports the destroyers, not the other way around.
Nagerash wrote:
I also don't think the destroyers or ccb need the VoD the most as they have a high movement to get in range already.
24" weapon range isnt much.
Xachariah wrote:
- Swap the CCB to your outrider detachment, and give the CCB Lightning Field instead. CCBs are actually solid in close combat with a field and can support instead of being 85 point Crimson Haze totems.
Why a novokh CCB ? It only has three attacks, hitting on 2s. Its unlikely i will have any missed hit rolls, no real benefit from novokh. It cant buff scarabs or wraiths with WOC. Neither is INFANTRY. It can buff the destroyers with WOC, but isnt sautekh better for the CCB and destroyers ?
Nagerash wrote:
- Swap your destroyers to outrider too so the CCB has something to support and replace out the heavy destroyer with a normal destroyer. (Yes, if they're using extermination protocols it's not as efficient, but it's better than nothing.)
Ok, i will replace the heavy destroyer with a normal one. But why novokh destroyers ? I dont see any sense in that, destroyers arent CC units. As sautekh they can advance and still fire.
Nagerash wrote:
- Add in a 3xWraith group. To pay for this, remove the excess cryptek, 1 of the scarab groups, and a single immortal for points. (Note, you can't have 4 selections of scarabs under new FAQ anyways)
Good Idea, i will add 3 wraith. The max 3 same datasheet rule is only a suggestion, though. Its not an official rule. Its up to the TO if he wants to use it, or not.
Nagerash wrote:
- Plan on using CP to buy Veil with your Overlord, so you can get a squad of immortals into the fight.
The plan for the overlord was to buff the two 10 model units of immortals with MWBD (phaerons will) and use the MD stratagem to get exploding 4+ with tesla. If the overlord takes one immortal unit with him he cant do that anymore.
Nagerash wrote:
As for the less constructive part of my comment... why pick up necrons to focus so much on Novokh?
You told me to move the destroyers to the outrider, which adds 300 points to the detachment, and now you ask me why i focus so much on novokh ?
Nagerash wrote:
For a 423 point detachment, you get 108 attacks, that with Novokh and crimson haze translate to 54+27+20.25 =~101 hits at S3 AP0 D1. All of that can't even kill a unit of Destroyers or Tomb Blades... or a LRBT. Or an ork Boyz squad.
Orks will do well over double that at better BS and toughness.
Hell, imperial guard infantry squads with character support can do that without orders, AND double that with orders, AND can shoot while doing it. With a better save profile. And it's not like it's melee guardsmen are great build sweeping tournaments or anything.
I just don't get why you'd come to necrons to build into our weaknesses. Why not a nice Tesseract Vault list instead or something?
Are you saying novokh is not worth playing ? Is tesla exploding on 4+ a necron weakness ? Scarabs are useless ? Should i drop everything and play a 3 tesseract vault list ?
Don't quite see destroyers working with nephrekh. But then again, destroyers don't really work that well with most dynasty traits.
Sautekh doesn't really do anything for them, as they rarely have to advance to get into range and they already ignore heavy weapon penalties.
Nihilakh is just useless. They already reroll 1s.
You always want to shoot, so the advance buff from nephrekh is pointless.
Mephrit is nice, but they have to be close to use it. Usually you don't want your destroyers close, unless you are sure they will survive.
Same problem with novokh. You rarely want to charge with them unless you are certain you can win. They do get 2 attacks though, so they sort of benefit from the rerolls.
That said, novokh, sautekh, and mephrit are probably the best choices for them, as they do get mileage out of the traits. Just not as much as you'd think.
Destroyers are weird in that they are strong by themselves, but they don't synergize with traits that well even though they can take them. Sort of like triarch units, except they can actually benefit from buffs and strats.
You'd think there would be a dynastic trait that destroyers would love, but nope.
Maybe they will release an outcast supplement that covers flayed one dynasties, destroyer dynasties, and the Empire of the Severed. I doubt it though.
Are you honestly being serious right now? Destroyers LOVE the Nephrekh Dynasty, not because of the Code, but because it gives them access to Translocation Crypt. Being able to DS protects your Destoryers from first turn attacks, guarantees that they will get at least one turn of shooting, and gives them positioning advantages. Nephrekh is undoubtedly the best Dynasty for them, and not because it is the best of the worse, but because their Stratagem makes Destoryers far more threatening and efficient.
Also, Battalions went from 3 CP to 5 CP, not 6 to 8. I think you are accidentally adding on the default 3 CP every list gets for being battle-forged.
Why a novokh CCB ? It only has three attacks, hitting on 2s. Its unlikely i will have any missed hit rolls, no real benefit from novokh. It cant buff scarabs or wraiths with WOC. Neither is INFANTRY. It can buff the destroyers with WOC, but isnt sautekh better for the CCB and destroyers ?
Ok, i will replace the heavy destroyer with a normal one. But why novokh destroyers ? I dont see any sense in that, destroyers arent CC units. As sautekh they can advance and still fire.
Good Idea, i will add 3 wraith. The max 3 same datasheet rule is only a suggestion, though. Its not an official rule. Its up to the TO if he wants to use it, or not.
The plan for the overlord was to buff the two 10 model units of immortals with MWBD (phaerons will) and use the MD stratagem to get exploding 4+ with tesla. If the overlord takes one immortal unit with him he cant do that anymore.
You told me to move the destroyers to the outrider, which adds 300 points to the detachment, and now you ask me why i focus so much on novokh ?
Are you saying novokh is not worth playing ? Is tesla exploding on 4+ a necron weakness ? Scarabs are useless ? Should i drop everything and play a 3 tesseract vault list ?
My extended logic on the CCB and Destroyers swapping is that if you're running a non-Novokh Battalion with a Novokh Outrider that's not infantry based, you've got limited options.
- Throw away the HQ slot (basically a cheap cryptek or lord). Least preferred option since it's ~75-85 dead points.
- Slot in a named HQ that can abandon the Novokh group and help your main group (Anrakyr or Szeras). A better option, but they're not necessarily efficient and you need to build around them.
- Put in a fighty HQ alone and hope it does well. Eg, a lone CCB or DLord. It's okayish? But you're wasting their auras.
- Go with an HQ that's useful, then swap in another unit to get the most out of it. Not always an option, but you already had destroyers, and they lose nothing by swapping detachments.
CCB or Destroyer Lords are our efficient options that can also keep up with scarabs/wraiths, which you want to do with your warlord trait. CCBs with lightning field are almost identical efficiency to DLords assuming you spend any time shooting, and are better at buffing if you're using extermination protocols. Also, you presumably already wanted to run one, so better to suggest that. I also think Szeras would go well with your list, but that means changing warlords, which changes the style of the list even more.
The overlord with Veil isn't just for veiling in to shoot things, although that's good too. A veil to steal objectives near endgame works and only needs one squad. A defensive veil lets you absorb a charge then shoot that same turn without falling back. (Note that in the new FAQ, I think RAW veil causes any units that veil to lose the effects of MWBD, but maybe I'm wrong on that interpretation. I'd need to double check.)
As for if Novokh is worth it, I don't think so unless you've got a specific idea in mind of what you're going to do with them, and even those are chancy. Like, 100% novokh list that's wraith heavy and focuses on tying up gunlines and supersaturing threat? It could work, even if it autoloses to eg Orks. Or, multiple squads of Scytheguard coming in on night scythes? I wouldn't want to risk that personally, but I can see a strat built around it that would win some games. But with 420+ points into Novokh scarabs, they don't strike me as a key component of victory.
Necron melee doesn't have the stats, points efficiency, or stratagems to just run at the enemy and hope the dice sort it out.
The overlord with Veil isn't just for veiling in to shoot things, although that's good too. A veil to steal objectives near endgame works and only needs one squad. A defensive veil lets you absorb a charge then shoot that same turn without falling back. (Note that in the new FAQ, I think RAW veil causes any units that veil to lose the effects of MWBD, but maybe I'm wrong on that interpretation. I'd need to double check.)
RAW the FAQ states movement and setup via a strategem removes buffs. Doesnt currently effect relics or abilities. The argument has also been made that MWBD is not a persistent buff as it has a built in duration.
DeChevalier wrote: #1 - I'm struggling with which HQ should be my warlord and what trait I should assign...
#2 - I'm not completely convinced on the Outrider Dynasties, but I'd like to keep at least 2 detachments the same for Cryptek redundancy...
#3 - Do you think the list is viable/competitive?
#1 - If any of your detachments are Sautekh, you should have that HQ be the Warlord so you can take Hyperlogical Strategist. Too valuable not to in my opinion.
#2 - That first Outrider should be Nephrekh. Stick the Sautekh Scarabs in with the Nephrekh ones (yes, it's currently just "recommended" that only three of any units are taken in a list, but if you want to play in competitive scenes it's "recommended" you abide by that restriction so you're ready for it once it actually comes up, which should be almost every tournament bar maybe small store ones).
The Tomb Blades are in an awkward position. I would consider dropping the Mephrit detachment entirely and moving the Scarabs and TBs into the new Nephrekh detachment (making them Tesla. Better to keep them away from charge range if you can help it).
#3 - Maybe? Might be better if you could turn that Spyder into a 3rd DDA. Still a little light on CP comparatively. If you dropped every Cryptek you could probably make the Sautekh HQ Imotekh for an extra added help/surprise.
DeChevalier wrote: #1 - I'm struggling with which HQ should be my warlord and what trait I should assign...
#2 - I'm not completely convinced on the Outrider Dynasties, but I'd like to keep at least 2 detachments the same for Cryptek redundancy...
#3 - Do you think the list is viable/competitive?
#1 - If any of your detachments are Sautekh, you should have that HQ be the Warlord so you can take Hyperlogical Strategist. Too valuable not to in my opinion.
#2 - That first Outrider should be Nephrekh. Stick the Sautekh Scarabs in with the Nephrekh ones (yes, it's currently just "recommended" that only three of any units are taken in a list, but if you want to play in competitive scenes it's "recommended" you abide by that restriction so you're ready for it once it actually comes up, which should be almost every tournament bar maybe small store ones).
The Tomb Blades are in an awkward position. I would consider dropping the Mephrit detachment entirely and moving the Scarabs and TBs into the new Nephrekh detachment (making them Tesla. Better to keep them away from charge range if you can help it).
#3 - Maybe? Might be better if you could turn that Spyder into a 3rd DDA. Still a little light on CP comparatively. If you dropped every Cryptek you could probably make the Sautekh HQ Imotekh for an extra added help/surprise.
(actually, on second consideration I put the TBs into the Sautekh detachment so they could benefit from Methodical Destruction)
That's a pretty good list, but why imotekh? You're waisting his MWBD ability. You could put it on the tomb blades, but then he'd have to keep up with them and you waist your chance to use it twice. The destroyers also don't need it as the already have an OL for that + EP.
(actually, on second consideration I put the TBs into the Sautekh detachment so they could benefit from Methodical Destruction)
That's a pretty good list, but why imotekh? You're waisting his MWBD ability. You could put it on the tomb blades, but then he'd have to keep up with them and you waist your chance to use it twice. The destroyers also don't need it as the already have an OL for that + EP.
I added him simply for the extra 1 CP and the Lightning. He's the easiest way to get the Methodical Destruction train rolling.
(but, no, he can't give the Tomb Blades MWBD as they're not infantry).
Can easily replace him with a Cloak-tek to keep the DDAs repaired or to keep up with the TBs, adding the rest of the freed up points into more Scarabs or upgrading the two 4x Scarabs out for one 4x Wraith unit.
Like so-
Oh right my bad. I didn't have the book with me, and thought imotekh had a special MWBD that could target more but could only target Sautekh Infantry twice.
Why not make the ccb Sautekh/Warlord and give the nephrekh a Lord? The lord could still buff the destroyers and advance to keep up.
Nothing much you can do about only 5 Cp. And with so few Cp the Sautekh trait isn't as good either. Not sure how to fix that without throwing it all overboard and going for a battalion.
Don't quite see destroyers working with nephrekh. But then again, destroyers don't really work that well with most dynasty traits.
Sautekh doesn't really do anything for them, as they rarely have to advance to get into range and they already ignore heavy weapon penalties.
Nihilakh is just useless. They already reroll 1s.
You always want to shoot, so the advance buff from nephrekh is pointless.
Mephrit is nice, but they have to be close to use it. Usually you don't want your destroyers close, unless you are sure they will survive.
Same problem with novokh. You rarely want to charge with them unless you are certain you can win. They do get 2 attacks though, so they sort of benefit from the rerolls.
That said, novokh, sautekh, and mephrit are probably the best choices for them, as they do get mileage out of the traits. Just not as much as you'd think.
Destroyers are weird in that they are strong by themselves, but they don't synergize with traits that well even though they can take them. Sort of like triarch units, except they can actually benefit from buffs and strats.
You'd think there would be a dynastic trait that destroyers would love, but nope. Maybe they will release an outcast supplement that covers flayed one dynasties, destroyer dynasties, and the Empire of the Severed. I doubt it though.
Are you honestly being serious right now? Destroyers LOVE the Nephrekh Dynasty, not because of the Code, but because it gives them access to Translocation Crypt. Being able to DS protects your Destoryers from first turn attacks, guarantees that they will get at least one turn of shooting, and gives them positioning advantages. Nephrekh is undoubtedly the best Dynasty for them, and not because it is the best of the worse, but because their Stratagem makes Destoryers far more threatening and efficient.
Also, Battalions went from 3 CP to 5 CP, not 6 to 8. I think you are accidentally adding on the default 3 CP every list gets for being battle-forged.
Is there anything that doesn't like the crypt? Its a strong stratagem that's locked to a specific dynasty. If it weren't dynasty specific destroyers wouldn't fit at all, as the trait doesn't work that well on them. I really dislike that decision, as you'd think that every dynasty would have access to such teleportation tech. Nephrekh probably has the best relic weapon too.
Nagerash wrote: Nothing much you can do about only 5 Cp. And with so few Cp the Sautekh trait isn't as good either. Not sure how to fix that without throwing it all overboard and going for a battalion.
That's just the point: it IS probably better to go with the Battalion.
Gonna come down to which you value more, having more CP to use on vital strategems or not paying the troop+extra HQ tax so you can spend points on more of the toys you actually want to take.
DeChevalier wrote: I posted this list over in Army Lists, but it would seem most of the Great Phaerons hang out here... and I'd like your opinions/constructive critiques.
#1 - I'm struggling with which HQ should be my warlord and what trait I should assign...
#2 - I'm not completely convinced on the Outrider Dynasties, but I'd like to keep at least 2 detachments the same for Cryptek redundancy...
#3 - Do you think the list is viable/competitive?
Salut ami!
Many things:
1- Get a bataillon. 3X 5 immortals is cheap. Gives 5 CP. Throw in your DDA in it, remove the spider.
2- Mephrit? Only good with rapid fire stuff, else you want to keep your range at a maximum to avoid being charged. Warriors, Ghost arks, even Monoliths. Not good on destroyers (ap-3 is good enough anyway). Destroyers are good sautekh or nephrek to deepstrike.
3- Same with tomb blade. Mephrit can be good in that configuration, sautekh would give you a better chance to advance and shoot on your first turn.
4- Scarab LOVES nephrek. Advance 6'', stratagem to charge still, stratagem to blow one up for D3 MW. I assure you, your opponent will waste the next turn focussing on your scarabs, and the rest of your army is free. Cheap distraction.
Yeah, ghost arks with mephrit are pretty good. That single vehicle can churn out a surprising number of shots. Remember that due to the removal facings you can always fire the max number of shots. You can also do that with DDA, but you'd don't want to move much with them. Makes for a great deterrent though.
Mephrit is good on destroyer though. -4 ap is enough to completely remove 3+ and downgrade 2+ into 6+. The problem is that you have to get close, which is risky. Unless you are finishing off an isolated unit, that is.
In theory, I can see nephrekh working well with particle tomb blades. You don't have to worry about the hit penalty like with telsa, as the modifier doesn't remove anything special. The reason I don't like advancing with tesla is because a lot of tesla's strength comes from proccing the extra hits. If you advance you can't do that unless you have an overlord nearby. You don't have to worry about that with particle weapons, as they are just pure damage. No gimmicks, just a High strength, high rof assault weapon.
You know, at first I had misgivings about using the advance and charge strat on scarabs, but comboing it with the kamikaze strat does sound hilarious. Its only 2 CP to pull off, which is pretty cheap for what it can do.
punisher357 wrote: I think with mephrit you need to be heavy in tesla due to the mephrit stratagem....i think it's called methodical destruction?
You move, advance, and fire the tesla weapons until you get in half range. Then you pop the stratagem.
Mephrit's strat is Talent For Annihilation. Yes, it works best with Tesla, as every 6 to hit will generate extra Tesla hits AND give you a bonus dice to roll, which if results in a 6, will give you MORE Tesla bonus hits (but no extra Talent For Annihilation dice that time). The downside being it only works on one unit at a time so you've gotta use it on something that puts out a lot of shots (highest being a unit of 9 Tesla Tomb Blades, which will be rolling a whopping 36 dice when shooting. That should give you a pretty decent number of 6s)
punisher357 wrote: I think with mephrit you need to be heavy in tesla due to the mephrit stratagem....i think it's called methodical destruction?
You move, advance, and fire the tesla weapons until you get in half range. Then you pop the stratagem.
Mephrit's strat is Talent For Annihilation. Yes, it works best with Tesla, as every 6 to hit will generate extra Tesla hits AND give you a bonus dice to roll, which if results in a 6, will give you MORE Tesla bonus hits (but no extra Talent For Annihilation dice that time). The downside being it only works on one unit at a time so you've gotta use it on something that puts out a lot of shots (highest being a unit of 9 Tesla Tomb Blades, which will be rolling a whopping 36 dice when shooting. That should give you a pretty decent number of 6s)
It Will increase damage output by 1/6 regardless of Tesla. Play it on a unit that needs to increase damage, knowing that Tesla isn't part of the equation.
Mephrit works just as well with Gauss, though. The extra -1 AP can take even Warriors from being a threat to being an outright menace. I managed to table a custodes army at my league night last week mostly using a Warrior blob supported by a Ghost Ark.
punisher357 wrote: I think with mephrit you need to be heavy in tesla due to the mephrit stratagem....i think it's called methodical destruction?
You move, advance, and fire the tesla weapons until you get in half range. Then you pop the stratagem.
Mephrit's strat is Talent For Annihilation. Yes, it works best with Tesla, as every 6 to hit will generate extra Tesla hits AND give you a bonus dice to roll, which if results in a 6, will give you MORE Tesla bonus hits (but no extra Talent For Annihilation dice that time). The downside being it only works on one unit at a time so you've gotta use it on something that puts out a lot of shots (highest being a unit of 9 Tesla Tomb Blades, which will be rolling a whopping 36 dice when shooting. That should give you a pretty decent number of 6s)
I always get those 2 confused.
Immortals will work well for the strat also. It's okay that it only works for a single unit. You have mwbd for the immortals which will make them more effective. You can also supplement with gauss weapons
The extra hit isn't more likely to become a new six just because it came from a six.
If you need to kill a tank, use it on the DDA instead, if you need to kill something medium T, use it on the destroyers
If you roll enough dice, you are likely to get a 6. Especially if you buff it with MWBD. A max squad of carbine immortals +MWBD + Talent can cause quite a few extra hits.
The extra hit isn't more likely to become a new six just because it came from a six.
If you need to kill a tank, use it on the DDA instead, if you need to kill something medium T, use it on the destroyers
If you roll enough dice, you are likely to get a 6. Especially if you buff it with MWBD. A max squad of carbine immortals +MWBD + Talent can cause quite a few extra hits.
Sure, just like any other unit is likely to hit or miss with whatever BS it has.
You're still just increasing your damage output by 1/6. That happens to any unit, with or without tesla. Tesla doesn'ẗ make the stratagem stronger and the stratagem doesn't make tesla stronger. The stratagem makes any unit 1/6 stronger regardless of tesla weapons in it.
Some extra math:
3 hits is a 1/6 increase on 18
2 hits is a 1/6 increase on 12
Sure Immortals score 3 additional hits where 9 warriors score only 2. But that's because the Immortals are already a very strong unit.
20 warriors in RF in comparison without exploding 6s score 26.7 hits. With exploding 6s they score 31.1 hits, a 4.44 hit upgrade (1/6 of course)
10 immortals score 20 hits, and giving them exploding 6s in addition now scores them 23.333 hits, a 3.33 hit upgrade, (again 1/6).
Thus unless you need S5 at the moment (a different story), the warriors would benefit more than the immortals, just because they had more hits in the first place.
A relative increase in the number of hits, is just that, nothing more. If you start out with more this, then a relative increase (16.7% in this case), buys you more additional hits. Tesla has no part in it, except it makes the buffed unit strong in the first place, but you're still just getting a 1/6 increase.
skoffs wrote: I added him (Imhotekh the Stormlord) simply for the extra 1 CP and the Lightning. He's the easiest way to get the Methodical Destruction train rolling.
I think they changed this in the Necron FAQ.
It changed...
From "Use this Stratagem after a SAUTEKH unit from your army has inflicted an unsaved wound on an enemy unit..."
To "Use this Stratagem after a Sautekh unit from your army has attacked an enemy unit and the attack resulted in the enemy unit losing one or more wounds..."
My read is that now it's been changed to not activate as a result of abilities, and to only trigger on attacks. Since Imhotekh is our only ability that does damage (or lightning field I guess) during a shooting/fight phase, it seems like the change was to stop this synergy specifically.
skoffs wrote: I added him (Imhotekh the Stormlord) simply for the extra 1 CP and the Lightning. He's the easiest way to get the Methodical Destruction train rolling.
I think they changed this in the Necron FAQ.
It changed...
From "Use this Stratagem after a SAUTEKH unit from your army has inflicted an unsaved wound on an enemy unit..."
To "Use this Stratagem after a Sautekh unit from your army has attacked an enemy unit and the attack resulted in the enemy unit losing one or more wounds..."
My read is that now it's been changed to not activate as a result of abilities, and to only trigger on attacks. Since Imhotekh is our only ability that does damage (or lightning field I guess) during a shooting/fight phase, it seems like the change was to stop this synergy specifically.
It would make just as much sense to change the wording because it might not be clear if a mortal wound is "unsaved", since there was never any save attempt in the first place.
Nowhere in the rules does it say that "attack" is the specific action of shooting or swinging a weapon, and not using an ability or in other ways hurt your enemy.
It changed...
From "Use this Stratagem after a SAUTEKH unit from your army has inflicted an unsaved wound on an enemy unit..."
To "Use this Stratagem after a Sautekh unit from your army has attacked an enemy unit and the attack resulted in the enemy unit losing one or more wounds..."
My read is that now it's been changed to not activate as a result of abilities, and to only trigger on attacks. Since Imhotekh is our only ability that does damage (or lightning field I guess) during a shooting/fight phase, it seems like the change was to stop this synergy specifically.
You are adding a meaning to the word 'attack' that is not backed up by any rules in the BRB.
skoffs wrote: I added him (Imhotekh the Stormlord) simply for the extra 1 CP and the Lightning. He's the easiest way to get the Methodical Destruction train rolling.
I think they changed this in the Necron FAQ.
It changed...
From "Use this Stratagem after a SAUTEKH unit from your army has inflicted an unsaved wound on an enemy unit..."
To "Use this Stratagem after a Sautekh unit from your army has attacked an enemy unit and the attack resulted in the enemy unit losing one or more wounds..."
My read is that now it's been changed to not activate as a result of abilities, and to only trigger on attacks. Since Imhotekh is our only ability that does damage (or lightning field I guess) during a shooting/fight phase, it seems like the change was to stop this synergy specifically.
It would make just as much sense to change the wording because it might not be clear if a mortal wound is "unsaved", since there was never any save attempt in the first place.
Nowhere in the rules does it say that "attack" is the specific action of shooting or swinging a weapon, and not using an ability or in other ways hurt your enemy.
I definitely agree. It was a rule that made Mortal wounds sound like they didn't qualify because no save was rolled
Attack is referenced 74 times in the BRB core rules that steps through how to play, and each time is in reference to rolls that use BS, WS, or are overwatch, and never referenced for other abilities. But since they don't define it explicitly in the BRB, be can't know what an "attack" means.
By this sort of logic, Nemersor Zahndrekh's Counter Tactics ability does absolutely nothing because 'aura ability' isn't defined anywhere.
I don't see how the stormlord's ability isn't also an attack. Doesn't he attack an enemy with that power? Where does it say it only applies to swords and guns?
Xachariah wrote: By this sort of logic, Nemersor Zahndrekh's Counter Tactics ability does absolutely nothing because 'aura ability' isn't defined anywhere.
That is an impressive, nonsensical leap you've made there. Trying to tell someone that 'an attack' is limited to shooting and stabbing is rules lawyer-ing in my book. If a tourney rules-set says it doesn't count, fine, but I'd be careful about trying to argue that with someone during a game.
It's not a leap. The rules has undefined keywords like 'aura ability' or 'attack', and it's up to us to figure them out based on evidence in the books.
In the BRB, the word 'attack' is referred to at least 6 dozen times to refer to shooting or stabbing somebody. It's used zero times to refer to other abilities that cause the target to suffer wounds. So we can infer from the rules that attacks are shooting-or-stabbing somebody, and that they aren't abilities that don't shoot or stab somebody.
In the BRB, there is a reference to 'aura abilities' but no actual definition on what they are. It references that it works on Nurgle's Gift, so I guess Aura Abilities counts as all abilities which have a radius? But without an actual definition, all we're left with is an educated guess on what an aura ability actually is.
There's IMO, much better evidence in favor of attacks being shoot-or-stab (literally dozens of references), than there is evidence that any given ability is or isn't an aura. If you take a hardline 'context and references don't matter; only a direct definition counts' then you get sillyness like everything being an attack (including vehicle explosions), and nothing (or everything) being an aura ability.
Xachariah wrote: It's not a leap. The rules hasundefined keywords like 'aura ability' or 'attack', and it's up to us to figure them out based on evidence in the books.
In the BRB, there is a reference to 'aura abilities' but no actual definition on what they are. It references that it works on Nurgle's Gift, so I guess Aura Abilities counts as all abilities which have a radius? But without an actual definition, all we're left with is an educated guess on what an aura ability actually is.
. . . nothing (or everything) being an aura ability.
Aura abilities are discussed in the rulebook - Right side bar, page 179.
"Some units - usually CHARACTERS - have abilities that affect certain models within a given range. . . . For example, a Lord of Contagion has the Nurgle's Gift ability, which affects all DEATH GUARD models within 7" of him."
I would not call this a reference, I would call this a definition - "aura abilities" is a defined word.
It is not a Keyword - which is defined under paragraph #9 on page 175.
But as others have mentioned this is not a thread to discuss rules queries, but Necron tactics - to which it looks like more FLG love!
rvd1ofakind wrote: Ok Mephrit lovers, tell me why a situational 1/6 improvement in damage that makes you get out of position is worth it over 6'' advance?
Because it's a flexibility that can get you out of a pinch, and because it's fun rolling 6s
rvd1ofakind wrote: Ok Mephrit lovers, tell me why a situational 1/6 improvement in damage that makes you get out of position is worth it over 6'' advance?
Its also a minus one to hit. So a damage increase versus movement and a damage decrease. Generally i prefer more damage to less.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Ok Mephrit lovers, tell me why a situational 1/6 improvement in damage that makes you get out of position is worth it over 6'' advance?
Just used a 2k Mephrit force this weekend. Me and T'au vs. T'au and Guard. I advanced up the board, and because of tactical objectives, they had to move around as well. the T'au flyers bombed my dudes, but had to pass over into my threat range to do so, and in which case ceased to exist on my turn. Also, I played aggressively, and both A-barges cut through a fair bit of their units. And I ran the Sniper Barge. Killed Commissar Yarrick with it.
I also did try out two squads of Praetorians, one squad of each weapon variant. They did soak a lot of small arms fire which was good I guess, but otherwise didn't do much. Not impressed, especially with their points cost.
But we did win with a huge lead in points, and they called the game at the bottom of turn 4. I had most of stuff still alive.
Tomb Blades [14 PL, 288pts] . Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer
. Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer
. Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
Tomb Blades [14 PL, 288pts] . Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer
. Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer
. Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
++ Total: [51 PL, 961pts] ++
PB Tomb Blades are tax and tank dangerous shots so my more precious TBs survive. both units cuddle the Cryptek, Only advance the Cryptek to the TBS are popping Tesla and the Cryptek stays in easy movement. Eventually when Destroyers drop from DS you can then bunch everything together to great a distraction blob.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Ok Mephrit lovers, tell me why a situational 1/6 improvement in damage that makes you get out of position is worth it over 6'' advance?
Its also a minus one to hit. So a damage increase versus movement and a damage decrease. Generally i prefer more damage to less.
Wow, this is the dumbest thing I've read all week. Congratulations.
So right now you are comparing Mephrit in a situation where you are out of range (since you're advancing). So in this case Mephrit does literally nothing...
Also, you do know that you can advance onto an objective for example? Hurting the enemy is cool and all but points are what win the game.
You confused the flat 1/6 damage increase of the Mephrit Stratagem with the general -1 to AP that all Mehprit get, which will have a variable damage increase, relative to what AP you start with, and what armor your target is, which is what gets you out of position.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Ok Mephrit lovers, tell me why a situational 1/6 improvement in damage that makes you get out of position is worth it over 6'' advance?
Its also a minus one to hit. So a damage increase versus movement and a damage decrease. Generally i prefer more damage to less.
Wow, this is the dumbest thing I've read all week. Congratulations.
So right now you are comparing Mephrit in a situation where you are out of range (since you're advancing). So in this case Mephrit does literally nothing...
Also, you do know that you can advance onto an objective for example? Hurting the enemy is cool and all but points are what win the game.
I love how angry and hostile you are about everything. Its very amusing. Also have you considered learning to position better? I rarely find myself needing to advance more than a couple times a game and all we play is maelstrom. We do not have a best dynasty. They are all tailored to different purposes. Trying to say the situational damage is always worse than automatic 6" is absurd. Neither option is better at all times. Just like all of our options besides destroyers they are situational.
Tomb Blades [14 PL, 288pts] . Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer
. Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer
. Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
Tomb Blades [14 PL, 288pts] . Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer
. Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer
. Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
++ Total: [51 PL, 961pts] ++
PB Tomb Blades are tax and tank dangerous shots so my more precious TBs survive. both units cuddle the Cryptek, Only advance the Cryptek to the TBS are popping Tesla and the Cryptek stays in easy movement. Eventually when Destroyers drop from DS you can then bunch everything together to great a distraction blob.
What do ye guys think for 1000ish pt investment?
Might as well throw some Scarabs in to top off the last 39 points.
Tomb Blades [14 PL, 288pts] . Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer
. Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer
. Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
Tomb Blades [14 PL, 288pts] . Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer
. Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer
. Tomb Blade: Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
++ Total: [51 PL, 961pts] ++
PB Tomb Blades are tax and tank dangerous shots so my more precious TBs survive. both units cuddle the Cryptek, Only advance the Cryptek to the TBS are popping Tesla and the Cryptek stays in easy movement. Eventually when Destroyers drop from DS you can then bunch everything together to great a distraction blob.
What do ye guys think for 1000ish pt investment?
Might as well throw some Scarabs in to top off the last 39 points.
Thought I had included them.
Alternatively, you could drop the Destoryers for lots of Scarabs but than it's bad against anything T7 above.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Also, you do know that you can advance onto an objective for example? Hurting the enemy is cool and all but points are what win the game.
OT but oh so true. My orks yesterday got 2 draws(and 1 minor loss) by in 3 games killing full units: 2 assasins, scarabs, dark eldar archon.
Not too shabby getting 2 draws and minor loss with such an amazing kill ratio
BTW that game against necrons was tough one. Wraith+destroyers nasty fast mobile tough squads and 20 necron warriors actually defeated 25 stormboyz. First charge took light casualties from OW, due to distance didn't get full impact, then they fell back and shot them and after recharge while I still kept killing more than they they kept coming back. Being grinded down in h2h by necron warriors...
Hey guys, was interested to see what you thought of this list I’m experimenting with.
Spoiler:
Nephrekh Dynasty
HQ - Overlord w/ Scythe and veil
- Cryptek w/ Cloak and the Solar Staff
TROOPS
- 10x Tesla Immortals
- 10x Gauss Immortals
- 18x Warriors
ELITE
- 9x Lychguard w/ sword & shield
FAST ATTACK
- 6x Scarabs
- 5x Wraiths
HEAVY
- Doomsday Ark
FLYER
- Doom Scythe
- Doom Scythe
I know Sautekh is probably the better choice here and I should be taking 3 Scythes for the stratagem but I’m also going with the models I have+minimum extra to buy to keep it cheap. It also doesn’t have Destroyers but could the Doom Scythes fill their spot to an extent? I’m curious to know if this list could do alright or if it’s not worth it.
I love how angry and hostile you are about everything. Its very amusing. Also have you considered learning to position better? I rarely find myself needing to advance more than a couple times a game and all we play is maelstrom. We do not have a best dynasty. They are all tailored to different purposes. Trying to say the situational damage is always worse than automatic 6" is absurd. Neither option is better at all times. Just like all of our options besides destroyers they are situational.
I just say what's on my mind. If I see something dumb, I'll say it's dumb. Oh and "I'd rather do more damage than less durr hurr". Really?
Positioning better is cute until you fight an opponent who will shoot you off of the objectives. Then you'll need to move onto them with another unit.
And obviously we do not have a "best at every scenario". No army does. However there are objectively best <subfaction> which are the best because they work more often. Nephrekh is that IMO. Mephrit is a trap. If you have a primarily shooting army and have 24'' range guns, you usually want to stay 23,9'' away from the enemy. So you can shoot them and they can't shoot back as efficiently.
You confused the flat 1/6 damage increase of the Mephrit Stratagem with the general -1 to AP that all Mehprit get, which will have a variable damage increase, relative to what AP you start with, and what armor your target is, which is what gets you out of position.
Yes, that's why I said it's a situational 1/6 damage increase. Situational meaning it doesn't even do anything vs: high invul saves, low armor.
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey guys, was interested to see what you thought of this list I’m experimenting with.
Spoiler:
Nephrekh Dynasty
HQ - Overlord w/ Scythe and veil
- Cryptek w/ Cloak and the Solar Staff
TROOPS
- 10x Tesla Immortals
- 10x Gauss Immortals
- 18x Warriors
ELITE
- 9x Lychguard w/ sword & shield
FAST ATTACK
- 6x Scarabs
- 5x Wraiths
HEAVY
- Doomsday Ark
FLYER
- Doom Scythe
- Doom Scythe
I know Sautekh is probably the better choice here and I should be taking 3 Scythes for the stratagem but I’m also going with the models I have+minimum extra to buy to keep it cheap. It also doesn’t have Destroyers but could the Doom Scythes fill their spot to an extent? I’m curious to know if this list could do alright or if it’s not worth it.
Thanks awesome peeps
If you are taking doom scythes (which are a casual unit at best), you REALLY should have them as Sautekh. They only get D3 shots with their death ray, and since they are heavy and the doom scythe can't hover, you'll be at BS4 with it all the time. This means that the majority of the time, they will accomplish nothing at all with it.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, bit of design flaw with the codex. I shouldn't have to take a specific dynasty to make a unit learn how to use its main gun properly.
I se no problem with it. Heavy Weapons actually mean something now. If I riptide jumps over a hill, it shouldn't be able to fire it's cannon effectively. If a Doom Scythe is zooming at screw-off speeds, literally screeching through the air, its giant gun should have a little problem hitting things.
It sucks from a crunch point of few sometimes, such as this case (I really love Doom Scythes), but I'm okay with it as a rule.
_Ness wrote: well it shoud have no problem. is fkn millions of years in the making and build for that kinda shooting
Yeah if Space Marines have tech that can shoot heavy on the move (stormravens) I feel like Necrons should, as technologically perfect beings
Monoliths.
Also Scythes fly a lot faster than Stormravens.
Doesn't matter. A race of machines that technologically proficient should have discovered the super advanced technology of a fire control system. Like what we have in the 21st century. Especially for a vehicle that's designed to fire a certain weapon.
Really, all vehicles should ignore the penalties for heavy weapons.
At what number does it stop being efficient to even take certain units anymore?
Like, certain units we want to max out because, hey, more shots/attacks/survivable. But sometimes you really gotta pinch those points to balance a list so you have to start trimming the fat on certain units.
Say Destroyers. Obviously having 6 is ideal, but 5 is still pretty good... but what about 4 or 3? Still worth taking the unit at that size or should you just reinvest the points elsewhere?
Same with Tomb Blades. 9 is frickin amazing for getting Tesla spam on. 6 is still pretty good... But what about 3?
Wraiths at 6 strong are pretty intimidating. 5 strong still fine. 4 strong is a distraction unit... Is 3 just a waste?
Warriors. 20 will get you some decent results. 15 can still get the job done often enough... 10 doesn't seem like a good idea.
3 Doomsday Arks are going to wreck stuff. 2 will still cause a headache... 1 will probably die immediately before it has a chance to earn its points back.
Obviously there are certain exceptions (minimum sized units of Scarabs and Immortals are still incredibly useful), but at what point do you have to stop because you're spreading your units out too thin?
By the way, Nephrekh also allows random infantry go through giant blocks of impassable terrain and enemy models. So that's another plus. And it's great for HQs to get into position with their auras when needed.
rvd1ofakind wrote: By the way, Nephrekh also allows random infantry go through giant blocks of impassable terrain and enemy models. So that's another plus.
This isn't that much of a boon. At most you'll save a few inches because you won't have to move your infantry up/over/and down the terrain. Per the terrain rules, there is very little that will impede Infantry moving through it (Obstacles come to mind), and alot of our other units have Fly. Moving through enemy models is definitely the better part of the code.
I think the biggest benefit to the Nephrehk code (outside of access to the strat), is allowing Wraiths a chance for a T1 alpha charge. They get an 18" Move+Advance with Nephrehk, and then with the Adaptive Subroutines strat they can charge the turn they advance, giving them a 30" threat range. Scarabs too, as they'll have a 28" threat range (10" + 6" + 2D6").
Well. My place has a long LoS blocking hill. Which you'd have to walk around for 2 turns at least. With Nephrekh I can just phase through it. Depends on terrain. 2 blocks of line of sight blocking terrain are recommended so... Stand behind LoS during enemy turn, phase through and shoot during yours. Sounds sexy.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well. My place has a long LoS blocking hill. Which you'd have to walk around for 2 turns at least. With Nephrekh I can just phase through it. Depends on terrain. 2 blocks of line of sight blocking terrain are recommended so... Stand behind LoS during enemy turn, phase through and shoot during yours. Sounds sexy.
Neprekh wraiths are a no brainer.
I wouldn't say a no brainer. Novokh does give them an offensive boost, especially with the strat. They are both good options.
Well yeah, but if I'm setting up against a CC unit, I like to know their max threat range and be just outside it so even if they get boxcars they won't be able to charge me.
In regards to unit sizing, I usually run the larger infantry units one model down - 9 immortals instead of 10, 19 warriors instead of 20. The reason is I mostly play ITC format, and I do it to reduce as many ways as possible for my opponent to max out secondary objectives.
At what number does it stop being efficient to even take certain units anymore?
Like, certain units we want to max out because, hey, more shots/attacks/survivable. But sometimes you really gotta pinch those points to balance a list so you have to start trimming the fat on certain units.
Say Destroyers. Obviously having 6 is ideal, but 5 is still pretty good... but what about 4 or 3? Still worth taking the unit at that size or should you just reinvest the points elsewhere?
Same with Tomb Blades. 9 is frickin amazing for getting Tesla spam on. 6 is still pretty good... But what about 3?
Wraiths at 6 strong are pretty intimidating. 5 strong still fine. 4 strong is a distraction unit... Is 3 just a waste?
Warriors. 20 will get you some decent results. 15 can still get the job done often enough... 10 doesn't seem like a good idea.
3 Doomsday Arks are going to wreck stuff. 2 will still cause a headache... 1 will probably die immediately before it has a chance to earn its points back.
Obviously there are certain exceptions (minimum sized units of Scarabs and Immortals are still incredibly useful), but at what point do you have to stop because you're spreading your units out too thin?
It will certainly vary between lists, but I think it boils down to:
1. Are you trying to maximize RP?
2. Do you intend to use a strategem on this unit?
3. Are you wanting to limit secondary objective points?
Destroyers: 5 is a sweet spot. Only give up 2 points for gang busters(even 6 isn't bad giving up 3 points), and unit size is still high for EP and RP.
Wraiths: If you don't intend to use the 2CP strategem to roll RP, any size should be fine. Last game I had a unit of 6 lock up around 350 points of AV for 2 turns back to back. MSU can be spread out to be just as dirty
Tomb Blades: This one is a bit unique to me because of the wargear 3+/5++ you can add on. I don't think I'd use many strategems on them either. If barebones and no wargear, I don't see an issue with MSU to avoid secondary points. If grabbing the 3+/5++, it's nice to have a large unit to alternate which save to take.
Warriors: If I take these over immortals, they're bound to be deceiever or veiled in. In which case, 19 is my preference to avoid reaper.
Immortals: I'd only run MSU if I'm interested in CP. Most of the time it will be 9 or 10, depending on how many reaper points my list is already giving up.
DDA: Probably an unpopular opinion, but I don't like these at all. D6 shots is frustrating to rely on. In the case of discussion, if I were to bring these, 2-3 is a must to balance the variance you get from D6 shots.
At what number does it stop being efficient to even take certain units anymore?
Like, certain units we want to max out because, hey, more shots/attacks/survivable. But sometimes you really gotta pinch those points to balance a list so you have to start trimming the fat on certain units.
Say Destroyers. Obviously having 6 is ideal, but 5 is still pretty good... but what about 4 or 3? Still worth taking the unit at that size or should you just reinvest the points elsewhere?
Same with Tomb Blades. 9 is frickin amazing for getting Tesla spam on. 6 is still pretty good... But what about 3?
Wraiths at 6 strong are pretty intimidating. 5 strong still fine. 4 strong is a distraction unit... Is 3 just a waste?
Warriors. 20 will get you some decent results. 15 can still get the job done often enough... 10 doesn't seem like a good idea.
3 Doomsday Arks are going to wreck stuff. 2 will still cause a headache... 1 will probably die immediately before it has a chance to earn its points back.
Obviously there are certain exceptions (minimum sized units of Scarabs and Immortals are still incredibly useful), but at what point do you have to stop because you're spreading your units out too thin?
It will certainly vary between lists, but I think it boils down to:
1. Are you trying to maximize RP?
2. Do you intend to use a strategem on this unit?
3. Are you wanting to limit secondary objective points?
Destroyers: 5 is a sweet spot. Only give up 2 points for gang busters(even 6 isn't bad giving up 3 points), and unit size is still high for EP and RP.
Wraiths: If you don't intend to use the 2CP strategem to roll RP, any size should be fine. Last game I had a unit of 6 lock up around 350 points of AV for 2 turns back to back. MSU can be spread out to be just as dirty
Tomb Blades: This one is a bit unique to me because of the wargear 3+/5++ you can add on. I don't think I'd use many strategems on them either. If barebones and no wargear, I don't see an issue with MSU to avoid secondary points. If grabbing the 3+/5++, it's nice to have a large unit to alternate which save to take.
Warriors: If I take these over immortals, they're bound to be deceiever or veiled in. In which case, 19 is my preference to avoid reaper.
Immortals: I'd only run MSU if I'm interested in CP. Most of the time it will be 9 or 10, depending on how many reaper points my list is already giving up.
DDA: Probably an unpopular opinion, but I don't like these at all. D6 shots is frustrating to rely on. In the case of discussion, if I were to bring these, 2-3 is a must to balance the variance you get from D6 shots.
I invariably rely on mathcraft.
How many models do I need to statistically-mean take down the optimal target based on the meta. With Destroyers, you can back calculate how much unsaved damage you need to have caused against the planned target(s), thereby how many wounds, thereby how many shots, and thereby how many models in the unit.
rvd1ofakind wrote: By the way, Nephrekh also allows random infantry go through giant blocks of impassable terrain and enemy models. So that's another plus. And it's great for HQs to get into position with their auras when needed.
another thing to remember is that there's a stratagem that will allow you to assault after advancing.....this makes Nephrekh much more appealing when thinking of lychguard, wraiths, etc.
rvd1ofakind wrote: By the way, Nephrekh also allows random infantry go through giant blocks of impassable terrain and enemy models. So that's another plus. And it's great for HQs to get into position with their auras when needed.
another thing to remember is that there's a stratagem that will allow you to assault after advancing.....this makes Nephrekh much more appealing when thinking of lychguard, wraiths, etc.
That stratagem only works for canoptek units. Lychguard can't use it.
rvd1ofakind wrote: By the way, Nephrekh also allows random infantry go through giant blocks of impassable terrain and enemy models. So that's another plus. And it's great for HQs to get into position with their auras when needed.
another thing to remember is that there's a stratagem that will allow you to assault after advancing.....this makes Nephrekh much more appealing when thinking of lychguard, wraiths, etc.
That stratagem only works for canoptek units. Lychguard can't use it.
Bummer....that's what I get for being at work.....no codex. Still, it's a good thing to use on Wraiths.
It's surprising novokh is used more than nephrek, but nihilak doesn't seem very useful.
The only pair up I can see would be with monoliths.... and that's only if its true that the unit it teleported can move afterwards... this would mean the nihilak benefit would apply as it's not a transport.
I mean, a lot of people are stepping into the Mephrit trap. Ofc, I could be wrong, but it is very one-dimensional. "Situationally just a bit more damage that makes you get out of position" will not win you a tournament. Mobility will.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I mean, a lot of people are stepping into the Mephrit trap. Ofc, I could be wrong, but it is very one-dimensional. "Situationally just a bit more damage that makes you get out of position" will not win you a tournament. Mobility will.
Tournaments aren't the end all be all. There are other ways to play.
I think mephrit can be good, but you really have to play to its strengths. I think a lot of the nephrek hype is due to destroyer love.
Nephrek is definitely better at grabbing objectives, but I think sautekh is better than nephrek due to the dual benefits and warlord trait.
Super Heavy Detachment, Mephrit Dynasty [1488 Points] + 3 CP
LoW1: Tesseract Vault (496), 4x Tesla sphere (0) – [496pts
LoW2: Tesseract Vault (496), 4x Tesla sphere (0) – [496pts]
LoW3: Tesseract Vault (496), 4x Tesla sphere (0) – [496pts]
-makes no sense... UNLESS they're allowing the Vaults Tesla weapons to benefit from the Mephrit code?
The strategem still works. I personally think sautekh or nihilakh would be better choices as thier strats are better imo but who knows. I just hope the guy knows they dont get the codes and doesnt find out part way through the event.
It's not like I'm having a hard time spending CP without it for destroyers, wraiths, double MWBD, Vault upkeep, etc
That's my main problem with the Sautekh and Mephrit stratagems. I already want more CP, I don't need more "ok to kinda good damage increase" things to spend it on :/
rvd1ofakind wrote: I mean, a lot of people are stepping into the Mephrit trap. Ofc, I could be wrong, but it is very one-dimensional. "Situationally just a bit more damage that makes you get out of position" will not win you a tournament. Mobility will.
How are you winning tournaments without ever getting within 12" of an enemy to call mephrit a trap?
Sure, its not the best choice for all units but its far from 'a trap'.
I think that Mephrit will lend itself towards the old Silver Tide army lists.
The counter to a silver tide was get close + charge.
If the weapons you charge against get more effective as you get closer, a failed charge iuslikely to have disasterous consequences for practically anything
rvd1ofakind wrote: I mean, a lot of people are stepping into the Mephrit trap. Ofc, I could be wrong, but it is very one-dimensional. "Situationally just a bit more damage that makes you get out of position" will not win you a tournament. Mobility will.
How are you winning tournaments without ever getting within 12" of an enemy to call mephrit a trap?
Sure, its not the best choice for all units but its far from 'a trap'.
By "trap" I mean that a lot of people think it's the best by default when it is probably one of the worse ones. And I rarely get within 12'' with stuff that can benefit from +1AP. I try to stay as far away as possible with my infantry, sending wraiths, vault, etc in front.
Nephrekh lets you win by skill (movement) and gives you the ability to deepstrike in case you're on a table/deployment map where you can't hide your destroyers
rvd1ofakind wrote: I mean, a lot of people are stepping into the Mephrit trap. Ofc, I could be wrong, but it is very one-dimensional. "Situationally just a bit more damage that makes you get out of position" will not win you a tournament. Mobility will.
How are you winning tournaments without ever getting within 12" of an enemy to call mephrit a trap?
Sure, its not the best choice for all units but its far from 'a trap'.
By "trap" I mean that a lot of people think it's the best by default when it is probably one of the worse ones. And I rarely get within 12'' with stuff that can benefit from +1AP. I try to stay as far away as possible with my infantry, sending wraiths, vault, etc in front.
Nephrekh lets you win by skill (movement) and gives you the ability to deepstrike in case you're on a table/deployment map where you can't hide your destroyers
I dunno, mephrit could be quite lethal with gauss tomb blades, ghost arks and warriors. With warriors you want to be in 12" anyway, and tomb blades and ghost arks are fast enough to close the distance.
So I'm sat here bored and thought I would add my bit.. I played 1k sons yesterday and having mephrit won the day he charged his mauler fiend I done more damage on 20 warriors in overwatch (mephrit) then the 2 shots I got off from the dda. Now to call mephrit a trap I would love to see how you play because m5 is no way able to out manoeuvre a fast army like nids.. lol but he charged my warriors I over watched loads a few in my turn I used rp then veil and moved them across the board.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also the wording for sauteks dynasty contradicts it self if you advance heavy is classed as assault, but if you didn't advance then there is no -1 to hit... why wouldn't you advance? You get the no -1 to hit as assault any way? Or am I seeing it wrong? Sorry if this is all jumbled I'm writing on my phone
Sn33R wrote: So I'm sat here bored and thought I would add my bit.. I played 1k sons yesterday and having mephrit won the day he charged his mauler fiend I done more damage on 20 warriors in overwatch (mephrit) then the 2 shots I got off from the dda. Now to call mephrit a trap I would love to see how you play because m5 is no way able to out manoeuvre a fast army like nids.. lol but he charged my warriors I over watched loads a few in my turn I used rp then veil and moved them across the board.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also the wording for sauteks dynasty contradicts it self if you advance heavy is classed as assault, but if you didn't advance then there is no -1 to hit... why wouldn't you advance? You get the no -1 to hit as assault any way? Or am I seeing it wrong? Sorry if this is all jumbled I'm writing on my phone
Shooting assault weapons after advancing incurs a -1 penalty to hit.
I have found units of 3 Tomb Blades to be very good. I've run quite a few lists with 2 units of 3 with Tesla and Shield Vanes. 105 pts each.
They only usually die in games where I've used them as screens against assault. Otherwise they always seem to survive. I think this is down to them being more difficult to kill than they are worth. Opponents tend to try to focus down 1 or 2 units a turn to prevent things repairing, and the Blades aren't a big enough threat to be one of the units that gets picked on. They tend to get shot at most turns by leftover guns, storm bolters on Rhinos, and stuff out of range of better targets, but it usually turns out to be a waste of bullets.
They've scored me a lot of objectives.
Actually, being the only thing with -1 to hit acts as a huge deterrent too. Quite often people go to shoot at them, then change their mind when I remind them of the -1.
Sn33R wrote: So I'm sat here bored and thought I would add my bit.. I played 1k sons yesterday and having mephrit won the day he charged his mauler fiend I done more damage on 20 warriors in overwatch (mephrit) then the 2 shots I got off from the dda. Now to call mephrit a trap I would love to see how you play because m5 is no way able to out manoeuvre a fast army like nids.. lol but he charged my warriors I over watched loads a few in my turn I used rp then veil and moved them across the board.
Ah but with tyranids how much use that -1AP will then have against stuff that outmanouvers you? Stealers? They have 5++, they don't care. Hormagaunts? 6+ save. No care. Termagaunt ditto 6+ save so irrelevant. Warriors yeah I'll give it that there -2AP is good but again M6 so they aren't uber fast monsters...
Now there IS the carnifex with M7 and 3+. That's the prime one you would be looking at getting to rapid fire range.
Sunday facing necrons I was so glad he had the -1AP dynasty. Didn't came into play even once!
Isn't 3 units per 3 Tomb blades with particle beamer more survivable and overall better than 2 per 3 with Tesla? Cause they cost the same (216 points against 210). No Shield Vanes, but more bodies.
Sn33R wrote: So I'm sat here bored and thought I would add my bit.. I played 1k sons yesterday and having mephrit won the day he charged his mauler fiend I done more damage on 20 warriors in overwatch (mephrit) then the 2 shots I got off from the dda. Now to call mephrit a trap I would love to see how you play because m5 is no way able to out manoeuvre a fast army like nids.. lol but he charged my warriors I over watched loads a few in my turn I used rp then veil and moved them across the board.
Ah but with tyranids how much use that -1AP will then have against stuff that outmanouvers you? Stealers? They have 5++, they don't care. Hormagaunts? 6+ save. No care. Termagaunt ditto 6+ save so irrelevant. Warriors yeah I'll give it that there -2AP is good but again M6 so they aren't uber fast monsters...
Now there IS the carnifex with M7 and 3+. That's the prime one you would be looking at getting to rapid fire range.
Sunday facing necrons I was so glad he had the -1AP dynasty. Didn't came into play even once!
This. Again, the problem is that mephrit is both situational AND bad for positioning. It it was +1 to hit/wound - heck yeah it'd be great. Right now, however, I don't think so.
-Sentinel- wrote: Isn't 3 units per 3 Tomb blades with particle beamer more survivable and overall better than 2 per 3 with Tesla? Cause they cost the same (216 points against 210). No Shield Vanes, but more bodies.
This is true, and would work just as well. I like Tesla on them for when they can join in with some methodical destruction. Also, if I had any Tomb Blades in my list I would want to find points for shields. Then I would consider dropping the shields for more models. Then I'd want to put shields on those models. Then drop the shields for even more models...
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Not sure if this has been covered already, but can I use the veil to pull units out of combat, and if so, does it count as falling back?
You can and you don't count as falling back.
I used Zhandrekh and Obyron in the index a few times to be able to "fall back" and shoot every turn with a unit. Ate up a Tryanid horde with that once.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Not sure if this has been covered already, but can I use the veil to pull units out of combat, and if so, does it count as falling back?
Q: If a unit starts its Movement phase within 1" of an enemy
unit but elects to remain stationary, but subsequently uses a rule
that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up
again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity
psychic power, is it considered to have Fallen Back this turn?
A: No.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Not sure if this has been covered already, but can I use the veil to pull units out of combat, and if so, does it count as falling back?
Q: If a unit starts its Movement phase within 1" of an enemy
unit but elects to remain stationary, but subsequently uses a rule
that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up
again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity
psychic power, is it considered to have Fallen Back this turn?
A: No.
Ah, its under general FAQ. I was looking under the Necron FAQ. That's handy.
-Sentinel- wrote: Isn't 3 units per 3 Tomb blades with particle beamer more survivable and overall better than 2 per 3 with Tesla? Cause they cost the same (216 points against 210). No Shield Vanes, but more bodies.
This is true, and would work just as well. I like Tesla on them for when they can join in with some methodical destruction. Also, if I had any Tomb Blades in my list I would want to find points for shields. Then I would consider dropping the shields for more models. Then I'd want to put shields on those models. Then drop the shields for even more models...
I want to try full squad of Tomb blades, but in a world of reapers and Riptides with valleys of d2 weapons I'm not sure they worth it. Can use them in a scarab slot for fast point grapping though. Worth trying at least.
For those that run a Nephrekh Outrider, what is your go to HQ? Looking for preferences and experiences because to me it comes down to what can keep up with our fast movers: CCB, DLord or Cloaktek. I'm looking at Destroyers with a mix of Wraiths/Scarabs/Tomb Blades. Yes it all depends on what the HQ could move with. Staff HQ with Destoryers/Tomb Blades, beatstick CCB/DLord with Wraiths/Scarabs, even beatsticks with Destroyers for anti-charge melee threat.
I have found units of 3 Tomb Blades to be very good. I've run quite a few lists with 2 units of 3 with Tesla and Shield Vanes. 105 pts each.
They only usually die in games where I've used them as screens against assault. Otherwise they always seem to survive. I think this is down to them being more difficult to kill than they are worth. Opponents tend to try to focus down 1 or 2 units a turn to prevent things repairing, and the Blades aren't a big enough threat to be one of the units that gets picked on. They tend to get shot at most turns by leftover guns, storm bolters on Rhinos, and stuff out of range of better targets, but it usually turns out to be a waste of bullets.
They've scored me a lot of objectives.
Actually, being the only thing with -1 to hit acts as a huge deterrent too. Quite often people go to shoot at them, then change their mind when I remind them of the -1.
I've done well in my escalation league using three Gauss Blades. People seem to underestimate their damage output and ignore until it's too late.
I have found units of 3 Tomb Blades to be very good. I've run quite a few lists with 2 units of 3 with Tesla and Shield Vanes. 105 pts each.
They only usually die in games where I've used them as screens against assault. Otherwise they always seem to survive. I think this is down to them being more difficult to kill than they are worth. Opponents tend to try to focus down 1 or 2 units a turn to prevent things repairing, and the Blades aren't a big enough threat to be one of the units that gets picked on. They tend to get shot at most turns by leftover guns, storm bolters on Rhinos, and stuff out of range of better targets, but it usually turns out to be a waste of bullets.
They've scored me a lot of objectives.
Actually, being the only thing with -1 to hit acts as a huge deterrent too. Quite often people go to shoot at them, then change their mind when I remind them of the -1.
I've done well in my escalation league using three Gauss Blades. People seem to underestimate their damage output and ignore until it's too late.
I can definitely see how that could happen. The small squads are deceptive. I think I'd really like to try them as mephrit with tesla and then pop the stratagem to erase a horde or overwhelm a HVT with volume. You can always finish the HVT with DDA or destroyers.
rvd1ofakind wrote: By "trap" I mean that a lot of people think it's the best by default when it is probably one of the worse ones.
I don't think there is a "best by default" code. If I know I'm playing a specific faction, it affects how I tinker with my list.
TEQ/MEQ army? Mephrit firebase with either some Nephrehk or Sautehk support
Horde army that's going to be coming at me? Nihilahk for army wide rerolls of 1 with some Novohk melee screens/speedbumps
Gunline that's just gonna park and shoot? Sautehk firebase with Nephrehk/Novohk support/harrassing units
Playing in any kind of league/tourney where I need to go for a "take all comers" list, I generally gravitate towards some combo of Sautehk/Mephrit/Nephrehk, but that's my playstyle. If someone likes blobs with supporting units, I could totally see them playing Nihilahk and parking from T2 onward.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I mean, a lot of people are stepping into the Mephrit trap. Ofc, I could be wrong, but it is very one-dimensional. "Situationally just a bit more damage that makes you get out of position" will not win you a tournament. Mobility will.
How are you winning tournaments without ever getting within 12" of an enemy to call mephrit a trap?
Sure, its not the best choice for all units but its far from 'a trap'.
By "trap" I mean that a lot of people think it's the best by default when it is probably one of the worse ones. And I rarely get within 12'' with stuff that can benefit from +1AP. I try to stay as far away as possible with my infantry, sending wraiths, vault, etc in front.
Nephrekh lets you win by skill (movement) and gives you the ability to deepstrike in case you're on a table/deployment map where you can't hide your destroyers
See with Mephirt, I want to take the center field. Dictate where my opponent can go, while my outflankers harass or kill their flank. I like silvertide lists backed up by a few support units. If you get close, I'll plug you. If you get within 12", I'll plug you harder. It's the threat that counts. Being able to fall back and still having a ton of firepower to plug them harder is quite a real threat.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I mean, a lot of people are stepping into the Mephrit trap. Ofc, I could be wrong, but it is very one-dimensional. "Situationally just a bit more damage that makes you get out of position" will not win you a tournament. Mobility will.
How are you winning tournaments without ever getting within 12" of an enemy to call mephrit a trap?
Sure, its not the best choice for all units but its far from 'a trap'.
By "trap" I mean that a lot of people think it's the best by default when it is probably one of the worse ones. And I rarely get within 12'' with stuff that can benefit from +1AP. I try to stay as far away as possible with my infantry, sending wraiths, vault, etc in front.
Nephrekh lets you win by skill (movement) and gives you the ability to deepstrike in case you're on a table/deployment map where you can't hide your destroyers
See with Mephirt, I want to take the center field. Dictate where my opponent can go, while my outflankers harass or kill their flank. I like silvertide lists backed up by a few support units. If you get close, I'll plug you. If you get within 12", I'll plug you harder. It's the threat that counts. Being able to fall back and still having a ton of firepower to plug them harder is quite a real threat.
Agreed. This is how I have played so far this edition, and I ususally task my specialist units like destroyers with taking out anything that threatens to somehow wipe out the fearless midfield blob with invuln saves vs shooting.
blufury wrote: How highly are cp being valued now? Am I handicapping myself by taking 2 of the 1 cp detachments instead of the troop tax battalion?
I didn't value it as high before the FAQ, but now that a Battalion is 5CP, it's a must in any balanced list I create. I say balanced because it depends on the list you make. If you're running 3 T. Vaults or some other extreme, you'll probably be fine with limited CP.
But having the extra CP to command reroll a die for a target you really need to drop this turn, or auto pass morale when you can't afford to lose an objective, is really powerful.
Kill 0, hold 2(more), recon(maxed), slay warlord(22 pts)
