CaptKaruthors wrote:

Because then you use those, and go buy an alternative for the non-existent models.

Then Kevin doesn't get the money.

So, really, to do so would be to steal from Kevin.

That's nonsense. He already has the money. He should release them to the backers at the very least...then put them up on DrivethruRPG.com for a small fee to the public. Now he gets some money from the people that didn't back the Kickstarter...and gets to claim forward progress. That's win-win for PB. Doing nothing gains nothing..and people will make their own anyways. Net gain for PB? Nothing. If they are completed...they should release them. Period.

Way overthinking things.....just plane old uncaring and laziness

palaeomerus wrote:


He might be a candidate for Starwars Imperial Assault if he likes Starwars.

I ended up getting a windfall payout for some work I did and bought up all of wave 1 and wave 2 of SW:Armada. My kid loves SW but the ships really got him excited. Now THAT is a game done right.

darkminstrel wrote:

palaeomerus wrote:

He might be a candidate for Starwars Imperial Assault if he likes Starwars.

I ended up getting a windfall payout for some work I did and bought up all of wave 1 and wave 2 of SW:Armada. My kid loves SW but the ships really got him excited. Now THAT is a game done right.

<sigh> That is the main game I get to play lately.
Fast to setup and not bad for play speed either.

I will have to continue prettying up what I have for RRT now that I am all committed again and all.

Way overthinking things.....just plane old uncaring and laziness

That's what I figured. So much failure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Well sure. You've already paid for the miniatures. Guess what? Means you don't count.

OTHER people, who haven't paid for the miniatures. Are they going to not use an alternative for the weeks days months year multiple years they had access to cards but no game pieces? Of course not. And if those people find alternatives, they might not go ahead and spend money on Mouthwatering Palladium Books Miniatures(tm) when they've already got something.

For me that crap still doesn't fly because I'll still buy the plastic versions when they come out as well. Currently, the Gnerl alternatives I'm using are more expensive than the eventual boxed set of them. It's no different than when GW released new plastic eldar fire prisms and wave serpents, etc. I had the ones with the metal gun bits...but still bought the new prisms. Same thing with the serpents. I had several converted ones...but still bought the plastic kits anyways.

I have a suspicion that PB will try to stop anything they think may fall within the IP because they MIGHT get around to making those items and do not want the demand gone before they get there. We would not want them hurting their heads in figuring out if they will get around to making a given product within Kevin's allotted life span.

This is why we cannot have nice things.

 Talizvar wrote:
I have a suspicion that PB will try to stop anything they think may fall within the IP because they MIGHT get around to making those items and do not want the demand gone before they get there. We would not want them hurting their heads in figuring out if they will get around to making a given product within Kevin's allotted life span.

This is why we cannot have nice things.

That is why we just don't tell them when we do get nice things......

 CaptKaruthors wrote:

For me that crap still doesn't fly because I'll still buy the plastic versions when they come out as well. Currently, the Gnerl alternatives I'm using are more expensive than the eventual boxed set of them. It's no different than when GW released new plastic eldar fire prisms and wave serpents, etc. I had the ones with the metal gun bits...but still bought the new prisms. Same thing with the serpents. I had several converted ones...but still bought the plastic kits anyways.

Sure, and with five minutes of work you could download a free PDF of just about any game book you could possibly want. But you'd probably still go ahead and buy the real book if you wanted it.

But it took PB how long to start producing PDFs?

Downloading the pdf doesn't simulate the drama associated with this project that has for better or worse become the "meat". Unless each PDF is personalized with art of Kevin and each user's mother in various compromising positions, it's a pale imitation of the entirety of the Robotech ExperienceTM.

Not putting up the wave two standees because they'd hurt sales would make them putting up the wave one standees (which are actually on shelves right now) completely contradictory.

Laziness, apathy, holding something in their back pocket, whatever it might be, loss of sales doesn't resonate with me.

Unless they saw already flagging sales instantly die off when they put out the wave one standees, I can't imagine doing one but not the other for a reason that MIGHT hurt wave 2, but would then allegedly ACTIVELY be harming wave 1.

Kevin Siembieda has in the past commented on day to day sales and tried to diagnose the issue (to assign blame to someone?) the same day. He freaked out when sales dropped overnight with their new website and webstore when it was unleashed upon the gaming world and considered iirc pulling it back. Nevermind that it was the first update of their website since probably the 1990's and people and folks were likely exploring it instead of buying temporarily... there was one less rifter issue sold overnight! Panic! Quick, deploy the emergency logo dice bags! He doesn't have any qualms screwing over thousands of current customers whose money he already has as well as cutting his future potential fanbase significantly with the same dick move.. but if someone else does something that means a grab bag sale was lost that week then they will rue the day they crossed his path!

Sure, and with five minutes of work you could download a free PDF of just about any game book you could possibly want. But you'd probably still go ahead and buy the real book if you wanted it.

Not sure what your point is? But in this example...yes I have actually done that. I've done it with FW books, RPG books, etc. If the book is good, I'll buy it...even if I may have had a free pdf of it at one point.

 Forar wrote:
Not putting up the wave two standees because they'd hurt sales would make them putting up the wave one standees (which are actually on shelves right now) completely contradictory.

Laziness, apathy, holding something in their back pocket, whatever it might be, loss of sales doesn't resonate with me.

Unless they saw already flagging sales instantly die off when they put out the wave one standees, I can't imagine doing one but not the other for a reason that MIGHT hurt wave 2, but would then allegedly ACTIVELY be harming wave 1.

The reason given was that they would have to do the cards to go with them before they could release the standees . Problem is we already know they have them done and had them done quite some time ago (predating wave one) as told to us by Mike who has the damn things. Even if they hadn't been done yet that's maybe MAYBE two days work.

It was not about a possible sales loss.

You are accurate with the terms apathy and laziness. I'd add ineptitude, incompetence, indifference, and downright lack of character whatsoever.

Yeah, that's my point Jaymz. Some in this very thread were speculating it could be about lost sales.

I'm aware of the 'we need to do the wave two cards' excuse, but as pointed out, they have them, and it's not a Herculean task even if they needed to be built from scratch (y'know, file incompatibility or whatever).

There are a lot of reasons I can get behind, but "worried they'll lose sales of wave two stuff" doesn't sit right. If people are excited about MAC-II's and (plastic) FPA/MPA/Zentraedi Infantry, they'll get them. They won't see a paper standee and say "oh, well, I could've gotten some figures, but man these pictures are way better!"

Anyone willing to drop $30 for a MAC-II is not going to print off a picture and consider that good enough. And thinking that could be remotely the case is to ignore that the internet exists. We can go find a dozen viable MAC-II pics (from the series, fan drawn, PB's very own) for little standees right now, and scaling it to proper size isn't exactly a challenging endeavor.

 Forar wrote:
Yeah, that's my point Jaymz. Some in this very thread were speculating it could be about lost sales.

I'm aware of the 'we need to do the wave two cards' excuse, but as pointed out, they have them, and it's not a Herculean task even if they needed to be built from scratch (y'know, file incompatibility or whatever).

There are a lot of reasons I can get behind, but "worried they'll lose sales of wave two stuff" doesn't sit right. If people are excited about MAC-II's and (plastic) FPA/MPA/Zentraedi Infantry, they'll get them. They won't see a paper standee and say "oh, well, I could've gotten some figures, but man these pictures are way better!"

Anyone willing to drop $30 for a MAC-II is not going to print off a picture and consider that good enough. And thinking that could be remotely the case is to ignore that the internet exists. We can go find a dozen viable MAC-II pics (from the series, fan drawn, PB's very own) for little standees right now, and scaling it to proper size isn't exactly a challenging endeavor.

In general, no, paper doesn't replace plastic in terms of tabletop games generally. That said... there is some pretty impressive origami out there.

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~bu9t-sm/vf1.html

 Forar wrote:
Yeah, that's my point Jaymz. Some in this very thread were speculating it could be about lost sales.

I'm aware of the 'we need to do the wave two cards' excuse, but as pointed out, they have them, and it's not a Herculean task even if they needed to be built from scratch (y'know, file incompatibility or whatever).

There are a lot of reasons I can get behind, but "worried they'll lose sales of wave two stuff" doesn't sit right. If people are excited about MAC-II's and (plastic) FPA/MPA/Zentraedi Infantry, they'll get them. They won't see a paper standee and say "oh, well, I could've gotten some figures, but man these pictures are way better!"

Anyone willing to drop $30 for a MAC-II is not going to print off a picture and consider that good enough. And thinking that could be remotely the case is to ignore that the internet exists. We can go find a dozen viable MAC-II pics (from the series, fan drawn, PB's very own) for little standees right now, and scaling it to proper size isn't exactly a challenging endeavor.

not to mention that it's already been done for them for more than a few years......even if they want to say, here are crappy ones until we get good ones done.....all I needed was a few pics from them to make it happen.

The reason given was that they would have to do the cards to go with them before they could release the standees . Problem is we already know they have them done and had them done quite some time ago (predating wave one) as told to us by Mike who has the damn things. Even if they hadn't been done yet that's maybe MAYBE two days work.

Agreed. Plus if they didn't have them done..they have the templates and could easily make all of them within a few days tops.

It was not about a possible sales loss.

Yeah, sales loss makes no sense to me. They already have the backers money. If they were concerned about loss of sales for the general public...that crap doesn't fly. People still would rather have the laminated official cards vs. printouts and also the actual models vs. stand ins.

You are accurate with the terms apathy and laziness. I'd add ineptitude, incompetence, indifference, and downright lack of character whatsoever.

It gets back to my earlier point. If they say they don't have them ready...then they are either: stupid, or liars.

 Forar wrote:


Anyone willing to drop $30 for a MAC-II is not going to print off a picture and consider that good enough. And thinking that could be remotely the case is to ignore that the internet exists. We can go find a dozen viable MAC-II pics (from the series, fan drawn, PB's very own) for little standees right now, and scaling it to proper size isn't exactly a challenging endeavor.

Mike actually did one sort of 3d

I didn't say it was impossible.

I said that anyone who wanted a model of one, and was willing to pay for the right to have one (in scale, same material, etc), wasn't going to be put off by a paper standee version.

I don't buy a dozen action figures and then print off the ones I'm missing and consider it a 'complete collection'.

Anyone who would use the paper things instead of wanting the real model probably wasn't going to be much of a customer in the first place, and has probably already printed themselves a dozen at minimal cost if they really wanted them.

 Forar wrote:
I didn't say it was impossible.

I said that anyone who wanted a model of one, and was willing to pay for the right to have one (in scale, same material, etc), wasn't going to be put off by a paper standee version.

I don't buy a dozen action figures and then print off the ones I'm missing and consider it a 'complete collection'.

Anyone who would use the paper things instead of wanting the real model probably wasn't going to be much of a customer in the first place, and has probably already printed themselves a dozen at minimal cost if they really wanted them.

Which is a valid point....I've placed mine in a box for now and only use ones that I have nothing that will work at a good proxy.

 Forar wrote:
I didn't say it was impossible.

I said that anyone who wanted a model of one, and was willing to pay for the right to have one (in scale, same material, etc), wasn't going to be put off by a paper standee version.

I don't buy a dozen action figures and then print off the ones I'm missing and consider it a 'complete collection'.

Anyone who would use the paper things instead of wanting the real model probably wasn't going to be much of a customer in the first place, and has probably already printed themselves a dozen at minimal cost if they really wanted them.

I know you didn't say it was impossible...my point was it is easy enough that some of us have already done it.

I don't think Kevin will get us wave two. I feel like he wants to string us along so he doesn't get in trouble with the FTC and so he can try to keep selling us PB junk.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
I don't think Kevin will get us wave two. I feel like he wants to string us along so he doesn't get in trouble with the FTC and so he can try to keep selling us PB junk.

My sentiments exactly.
He keeps our money and has a captive audience: how is this a bad thing in his mind?
It is a small price to pay for keeping his REAL fans the RPG folks receiving his product.
I see this "relaunch" going nowhere, PB really seems to have no appetite to support this line.

Not just PB, but also the few who were willing to spend some time and assist. That includes some long-time people within their RPG ranks that were asked to help with RRT when wave 1 was released.

The sad truth is they will be at conventions this year and it wouldn't surprise me to hear some disgruntled Kickstarter investor flipping their table or ruining their booth. Either will not get our stuff any quicker and I am sure palladium will not understand the anger behind it.

All Quiet on the Martian Front has posted their 'So long, suckers' message on Kickstarter today.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1117201778/all-quiet-on-the-martian-front-miniature-tanks-vs/posts/1476734

Don't expect anything of the sort from Kevin...he'll just keep stringing you along....

The difference being that Palladium has assets that could be seized...

 Genoside07 wrote:
The sad truth is they will be at conventions this year and it wouldn't surprise me to hear some disgruntled Kickstarter investor flipping their table or ruining their booth.

It won't happen. Every year around gencon there are angry backers who swear up and down about how they will tell Kevin off and demand answers. Nothing happens. Now BS did go and speak to Kevin but he was bought off with a free core box. Then when people disagreed with him he picked up his ball and went home.

 totalfailure wrote:
All Quiet on the Martian Front has posted their 'So long, suckers' message on Kickstarter today.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1117201778/all-quiet-on-the-martian-front-miniature-tanks-vs/posts/1476734
Don't expect anything of the sort from Kevin...he'll just keep stringing you along....

"So long suckers" is not so much when nailed with bankruptcy.
It is precisely this outcome why Kevin will say nothing.
I suspect fulfilling wave2 or supplying refunds he would go the same way.
At least those other creators bit the bullet and moved on, an LLC is the way to go to avoid personal ruin.

https://blainepardoe.wordpress.com/2016/01/21/case-study-the-demise-of-alien-dungeon-and-all-quiet-on-the-martian-front/ That was posted by KawCleric over on the RRT Kickstarter page. It reads almost exactly like what we've been going through.

It's also the end that is pretty much predicted for us as well.

Whats the definition of optimism?

Updating your delivery address for wave 2

 MangoMadness wrote:
Whats the definition of optimism?

Updating your delivery address for wave 2

It's important you do that, otherwise if wave 2 goes missing it's your fault. Wait a minute, wave 2 is missing! It is your fault, why didn't you update your address?

 MangoMadness wrote:
Whats the definition of optimism?
Updating your delivery address for wave 2

I actually "have" to do that.
Another person I am on the same wavelength on... I keep feeling like "what is the point, really?"
I am just waiting until I am in a good mood so when I make that phone call I do not say anything inappropriate.
I figure I don't want to give the excuse like above: "What? You did not get the wave 2 shipment? Ah, too bad for you... we did our part! (really we did!)"

Trouble is, I don't know what cemetery I'll be buried in!

I would suggest when writing off your wave 2 just call them up and change to an Australian address... just in case they manage it.

Can we write off the missing wave 2 figures as a tax loss? Palladium could do us a solid and like, inflate that values so we can claim the loss.

 Talizvar wrote:
I would suggest when writing off your wave 2 just call them up and change to an Australian address... just in case they manage it.

Kind of like a ship lost at sea?

Do we have the MSRPs of all the items to be delivered? I could do with a lower tax bill.

No. We have what they charged in the Pledge Manager as a start (and could compare wave one to retail/MSRP and get an estimate on the remainder), and they had the initial MSRP's on the campaign for a couple of days at one point (though they got pulled pretty quickly as I recall), but not for the missing products.

We had the original MSRPs of wave one back in July of 2013 with the Short Solicit Pre-orders that showed up on Alliance Distribution's lists, and then those got bumped up in 2014 (if I'm not mistaken) when they realized some of the costs were going up.

Edit: In other Kickstarter news, Dwarven Forge's 3rd campaign has now been delivered, on time. That's 3 that have started and finished in the time that PB has struggled to deliver 1/3 of theirs. 18 pounds of awesome terrain goodness! (and that's a small order compared to many).

New update:

Hi guys.

As I have stated in recent Weekly Updates on our website, Palladium Books has renewed its Robotech® game license and we intend to move Robotech® RPG Tactics™ forward in 2016 in a big way. I want to get the Wave Two Kickstarter exclusives and expansion packs into manufacturing, and ultimately into your hands, as soon as we can.

Despite the fear and apprehension of some, I want to assure you that our Kickstarter backers have never been out of our thoughts, and Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two is coming. As I have stated, for strategic and business reasons we have been unable to share with you everything Palladium has been exploring, considering and working on. As you know, one of the things we have been doing is looking into and considering possible ways to reduce part counts and make the game pieces easier to put together. As we get into actual production and manufacturing for Wave Two this year, we will share plenty with you. And we think you’ll be pleased. Considering all the delays and frustration of the past, we do not want to even speculate on release dates and other details until we have hard, solid information we are confident with ourselves.

In the Spring we expect to be able to share with you much more details, information, progress reports and offer up new material on a regular basis. We’ll have some new data and material sooner, but I don’t think things will really begin to heat up before Spring or Summer. We want Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two and fulfillment of our Kickstarter obligations more than anyone. It’s coming.

Oh, and when we talk about the relaunch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ we mean a renewed market push of the core game, regular product releases and game support, like RRT rules clarifications and elaboration, rules additions, advanced rules, demos, convention support, gaming events and promotions, adventures, PDF and physical releases, and more.

We are also floating ideas for a number of new Robotech® RPG sourcebooks for various Robotech® generations, which will ultimately result in new mecha, vehicles, aliens, and factions for Robotech® RPG Tactics™ expansions. We have some ideas of our own, but we welcome input and suggestions from you, so start kicking around ideas and don’t hesitate to share them with us.

Please know that we are truly committed to fulfilling our Kickstarter obligations and to make Robotech® RPG Tactics™ truly epic, with future expansions across all eras of Robotech®.

*sigh*

Another update about nothing.

They slipped 3 to 6 months in the space of...two sentences!!!

In the Spring we expect to be able to share with you much more details, information, progress reports and offer up new material on a regular basis. We’ll have some new data and material sooner, but I don’t think things will really begin to heat up before Spring or Summer.

Yeah. And as noted in the comments, "summer" ends in late September.

Oh look, seems my "Hrm, Gencon and Black Friday seem to be the only dates that mean anything to them", and we seem to be passing by Gencon entirely here.

Even if I believed they sincerely wanted to deliver this year, I don't for a second believe it's because they want to do right by the backers.

They want that sweet holiday sales money (and yes, I'm sure they've annoyed some people, but I don't doubt for a second that there'd be companies willing to sigh, roll their eyes, and snag a box of MAC-II's), and they presumably want people to stop leaving angry messages on their FB page.

I know receiving my box of stuff owed (my portion of which would mostly end up for sale) would probably bring my interest in them entirely to a close, and I suspect that's the case for a lot of people who have expressed their frustration to date. Aside from a few grandiose claims of seeking nigh-divine retribution and to have them driven from the land, it's not unreasonable for people to want their gak, even if it's not as good as originally promised.

And they just don't seem to get that, no, people aren't willing to quietly sit and wait while they spend another entire year twiddling their thumbs. Even people who have ardently asked for calm and patience are starting to get fed up.

Anyone that was hoping for something substantial by the end of Q1 or Q2 might as well start whatever actions they were pondering, because that did seem like a thinly veiled effort to ease us into the idea of the end of the year (Q2 to Q4, yikes), and that's just "things heating up", says nothing about actual delivery. Even if that's what he means, from the Wave 1 standards, ROW might as well brace for not getting their stuff until mid 2017 even if these donkey caves manage to figure out how to get the rest of the products completed.

Looks like the robotech section of the PB forums has been cleaned out again.

Right now is the time to get people to file. Every day for the coming handful I'll be reposting over on the kickstarter page the URLs to file reports. We've got to grab more people into the fold if we really want the reports to work.

So did we ever find out for sure if the Legal Tsunami©®™ was officially cancelled for $120?

Time to file the complaints. Has anyone created a polite form letter, laying out the pertinent details, to make it easier for all of us to file?

evilsmurf wrote:
Looks like the robotech section of the PB forums has been cleaned out again.

Doesn't look like it to me. It just doesn't see much activity. At a glance at least, I still see roughly the same posts that have been sitting unattended for days and weeks now. Any particular ones that seem to be missing?

 Alpharius wrote:
So did we ever find out for sure if the Legal Tsunami©®™ was officially cancelled for $120?

No, but Rick became abruptly silent, followed by only rare comments that very pointedly stick to his personal efforts with RRT and his own Wave Two stuff.

Either he was finally bought off, or decided of his own accord to change tack suddenly and completely. Rarely seems to post on the KS comments, infrequently here, his vitriol and rhetoric went from 11 to 2 in a couple of days flat.

 Briancj wrote:
Time to file the complaints. Has anyone created a polite form letter, laying out the pertinent details, to make it easier for all of us to file?

Everyone is waiting for Forar to do it.

(He joked, but not really)

PB says that they did not refund him, and he says the same.

That does not mean that he didn't receive payment or other compensation.

If I were a betting man, my money would be on a confidential settlement with a $120 covenant not to sue, and no admission of wrongdoing, clawback clause and non-disparagement. Standard stuff.

While the simplest explanation, it would require Kevin to sell a dice bag and hire an attorney to draft it.

And also if accurate its very telling that they defined any payout as NOT being a refund, unless Rick & PB are outright lying

Forar wrote:Edit: In other Kickstarter news, Dwarven Forge's 3rd campaign has now been delivered, on time. That's 3 that have started and finished in the time that PB has struggled to deliver 1/3 of theirs. 18 pounds of awesome terrain goodness! (and that's a small order compared to many).

Yeah, and DF stuff are easier to put together than RTT stuff too, and versatile... heavy as heck though (and still lighter than their resin). I'm hoping to pick up my stuff this week from the forwarder.

Ctaylor wrote:New update:

Would you believe I got to the third sentence and my eyes started to roll? It's yet another non-update update. Give us details -- "The super valk we are working to reduce from 25 parts to 15 parts, here's a pic of the layout." Or "The MAC II is proving a bit difficult primarily due to the size, we're thinking of how to get it to fit into a standard mold plate."

A thought struck me. Maybe they don't know how to do a screen-grab?

PB wrote:As I have stated, for strategic and business reasons we have been unable to share with you everything Palladium has been exploring, considering and working on.

Bunk. Other KS had shared enough details to satisfy the appearance of progress, and not threaten their own strategy and business. PB just plain sucks at figuring out which is which.

PB wrote:Considering all the delays and frustration of the past, we do not want to even speculate on release dates and other details until we have hard, solid information we are confident with ourselves.

Which won't happen until the boxes magically appear somewhere. PB's approach to information management went from "speculative positivity" to "nothing except concrete details, and assume nothing is concrete until concrete." That's just terrible, from a customer expectation management perspective.

At work, my boss don't take what I claim to have done at face value -- at some point I have to show evidence that some work was done. Why can't these numbskulls get that idea into their heads?

Forar wrote:Oh look, seems my "Hrm, Gencon and Black Friday seem to be the only dates that mean anything to them", and we seem to be passing by Gencon entirely here.

Yeah well.. setting the bar for how to screw things up and then lowering it further. It's now more a morbid amusement run to see how far down they can go.

Forar wrote:I know receiving my box of stuff owed (my portion of which would mostly end up for sale) would probably bring my interest in them entirely to a close, and I suspect that's the case for a lot of people who have expressed their frustration to date.

It's highly unlikely I'd do more than token browsing of any future RRT stuff, simply because I don't believe PB has the expertise to manage the line properly. To do that, PB has to modernize and rethink a lot of their approaches at the fundamental level. Given my impressions, pretty much the entire management has to be scrapped and redone, and we all can guess the chances of that happening.

Forar wrote:And they just don't seem to get that, no, people aren't willing to quietly sit and wait while they spend another entire year twiddling their thumbs. Even people who have ardently asked for calm and patience are starting to get fed up.

Sadly, the default is that many would quietly sit. I can't really do much since I'm overseas, but even I'm getting a bit fed up.

 ThaneCawdor wrote:
While the simplest explanation, it would require Kevin to sell a dice bag and hire an attorney to draft it.

And also if accurate its very telling that they defined any payout as NOT being a refund, unless Rick & PB are outright lying

No need to lie about it, there does not need to have been a "Refund", all they would have done was 'buy-back' his remaining pledge. Maybe he would have settled for face value [what he paid] or maybe they would have had to add a little to the pot for the 'inconvenience and expense of having to buy later at retail prices, but a 'buy-back' is not the same as a 'refund', no sir!

 Forar wrote:

evilsmurf wrote:
Looks like the robotech section of the PB forums has been cleaned out again.

Doesn't look like it to me. It just doesn't see much activity. At a glance at least, I still see roughly the same posts that have been sitting unattended for days and weeks now. Any particular ones that seem to be missing?

There were several new threads with comments running up till the 29th. Now the last comment is on the 26th.

Merijeek wrote:

 Briancj wrote:
Time to file the complaints. Has anyone created a polite form letter, laying out the pertinent details, to make it easier for all of us to file?

Everyone is waiting for Forar to do it.

(He joked, but not really)

When looking for someone to draft polite letters, you can do far worse than to tap a Canadian for the job. However, Forar's flag changes at work so he's part-American according to Dakka. This means he could slip into irate slang at any moment, and government flunkies might be confused by "gak", "gakbags", "fethmuppets" and wonder why anyone would keep a donkey in a cave. It's very difficult to discuss PB's efforts without the use of those terms as well, even with the linguistic skills Forar has shown.

It's do-able for him to be a freelance writer I suppose, but I'm not sure it's do-able if he's being paid like he was working for PB (i.e. - not at all)...

As we get into actual production and manufacturing for Wave Two this year,.

Wave 2 was to being worked on as wave one finished, now they are just thinking about scheduling it?

How can they schedule a production run until they have finished and signed off on the tooling?

Last we heard, they were still 'discussing' ways of improving the parts breakdown to make them easier to build. Maybe someone should point them in the direction of GW.
Torso, Legs, Arms, Head, Weapon, Accessories.
Part breakdown finished!

I'm debating until when to give Palladium before filing. Valentine's Day/1000th day post funding seems poetic as does Leap Year's day (February 29th) which would be just after one FULL year since the last useful update and symbolic that we only get one wave every four years. I was going to wait until gencon but Palladium has officially unofficially made that date incredibly unlikely for full reward fulfillment. Anyone else want to file with the FTC and other agencies (Michigan AG, BBB) on one of those dates?

I asked earlier in the thread and got no response but is there anyone reading this that is relatively local to Palladium (i.e. the Detroit area or whatever suburb Palladium is in)?

My Derek Wildstar (cosmo zero) fighter rendition:


and his plane with a Black Tiger Squadron plane:

So then, for all this extra stuff to fluff up the wave 1 product I am sure they can count on Mike to whip up something right?
You can't expect them to do it themselves!
Maybe sanction some shapeways models, for a cut.
Maybe a nice cozy starter box slip-cover!
Or an alternative to the "swoosh" tm. stand.
Card sleeves!

Conrad Turner wrote:Maybe someone should point them in the direction of GW.
Torso, Legs, Arms, Head, Weapon, Accessories.
Part breakdown finished!

Part of the problem is that the initial manufacturer that RRT went with is, IMO, using quite dated production technologies; it appears from the sprues that they are holding details only on one orientation, and as such needed to have two halves of limbs etc. that have details on opposing sides. Thus the Destroid legs of many parts, etc. Parts breakdown is also contingent on the technology used, so if they went with a low-tech provider, they are constrained by that.

GW for whatever evils they had done, had constantly moved their injection molding technologies forward. In the wargaming miniature industry, there's only a handful of companies capable of doing what GW does in plastic. PB is not one of those and given their business practices, attitude and model, unlikely to hook up with one that is.

That's why PB's talk of reducing parts count may -- or may not -- hide other things behind the scene. It's possible that they are swapping to a manufacturer with better capabilities (although, that is quite madness in itself), and hence able to reduce the part count now. Alternatively, they are trying to work things out themselves in 3D modelling so that the part count is lower, though their general technological affinity makes me shudder in fear of the end results of that..

warboss wrote:I'm debating until when to give Palladium before filing. Valentine's Day/1000th day post funding seems poetic as does Leap Year's day (February 29th) which would be just after one FULL year since the last useful update and symbolic that we only get one wave every four years.

Nah, don't go with the 1000th day thing. What if PB actually does give a proper update before that? Odds are low... it's one week to Lunar New Year, most Chinese companies would be winding down operations for the festivities. Ain't likely anything would come up before end of Feb.

 warboss wrote:
I'm debating until when to give Palladium before filing. Valentine's Day/1000th day post funding seems poetic as does Leap Year's day (February 29th) which would be just after one FULL year since the last useful update and symbolic that we only get one wave every four years. I was going to wait until gencon but Palladium has officially unofficially made that date incredibly unlikely for full reward fulfillment. Anyone else want to file with the FTC and other agencies (Michigan AG, BBB) on one of those dates?

I asked earlier in the thread and got no response but is there anyone reading this that is relatively local to Palladium (i.e. the Detroit area or whatever suburb Palladium is in)?

The time to file is now not later.

 warboss wrote:
I'm debating until when to give Palladium before filing.

You should have filed yesterday. And then, release PDFs of your complaints so that others can do the same.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 warboss wrote:
I'm debating until when to give Palladium before filing.

You should have filed yesterday. And then, release PDFs of your complaints so that others can do the same.

Do you have a link to your's, John?

I'm secondary on the split, so my name's not on the pledge. I don't have standing to file, or I'd have filed last year.

I saw this update and actually said aloud (my wife looked at me funny) What the actual Frak? (though not ....censored)

Counts updated to reflect what this "update" contained;

Days since Wayne said he'd give us a full breakdown on the status of all the pieces: **206**
Days since the last substantial Wave 2 info: 336
Days since the campaign ended: 986 (woo we break 1000 in February!)

Days until the end of "Summer" 2016: 236
Days until the end of 2016: 336

If things won't be "heating up" until the Spring/Summer, I'm going to assume that they've come to realize they won't have wave two on hand in the next half year, and thus will miss Gencon.

Similarly, since they seem to have given up on Q2, I've included the latter part of their current "heating up period" of Summer, which officially ends in late September.

They went from renders and prototypes to punching plastic in half a year with wave 1. They've had 1.5 years since that went from design to production, and are tacking another 9-12 months or so on for good measure.

I don't care what they or their beloved fan friends say, 2.5 years is more than ample time to produce two dozen fething figures

And that ignores the work that allegedly existed even during wave one's development and prior to the campaign even starting; they had prototypes of 'wave two' items at Gencon 2013, so even if they have 'China' doing revision work and whatnot, it's not like they were starting entirely from scratch.

Show, don't tell.

Jazzhands.

We're coming up on the year anniversary of the last substantial Wave 2 info?!?

For curiosity's sake - what was it?

Five sprue breakdowns and a promise for more info to come.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1150566

Still nothing on the Monster, tho... If I just get that kit, my blood pressure would drop substantially.

 Forar wrote:
Five sprue breakdowns and a promise for more info to come.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1150566

Wow...

Emphasis mine:

Update #173

Feb 28 2015
Wave 2 Update
200 Comments
55 likes

Hey, guys. Wayne here.

I've been promising Wave 2 updates and pictures for a while now, but it has taken me so long to start posting them, some have begun to express some doubts. I’m sorry about that; there’s no reason you guys should ever feel in the dark so much that you start to worry about whether we’re even working on this stuff. Well, we are. ALL Wave Two pieces are either done or in active development. But pictures are worth more than words, so here you go.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Still nothing on the Monster, tho... If I just get that kit, my blood pressure would drop substantially.

My daughter wants a pony, too.

Guess what?

Merijeek wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Still nothing on the Monster, tho... If I just get that kit, my blood pressure would drop substantially.

My daughter wants a pony, too.

Guess what?

She'll have one before Wave 2 comes out?

Is that it? Oh...I'm so bad at guessing games...

 Krinsath wrote:

Merijeek wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Still nothing on the Monster, tho... If I just get that kit, my blood pressure would drop substantially.

My daughter wants a pony, too.

Guess what?

She'll have one before Wave 2 comes out?

Is that it? Oh...I'm so bad at guessing games...

Well, it is more probable. I might find a winning lottery ticket. I might get a massive head wound. I might meet Rainbow Dash when she's looking for a place to stay.

Merijeek wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Still nothing on the Monster, tho... If I just get that kit, my blood pressure would drop substantially.

My daughter wants a pony, too.

Guess what?

OK, I'll guess that she placed a deposit for a pony that you promised years ago, and now she's getting madder and madder at your lame excuses?

How close am I?

Strangely, no.

Her wanting one did not, in fact cause me to promise her one. Because I know it's a completely unrealistic thing for me to promise her.

I guess, deep down, I'm just not a Brilliant(tm) Visionary(c).

I know it's a little dark, but here's some more "running totals" to follow on for Forar.

Number of backers* that are dead and buried since January 1st, 2014, the date this campaign was officially late : 22.
Date the next (23rd) backer* shuffles off this mortal coil : Feb 22nd, 2015
Date the 27th backer* (making it fully 1/2 of 1% of backers) carks it : July 7th, 2015

* I'm only using rough numbers, based on the rate of 35 year old Americans. I'm sure there are some more complicated calculations that could factor in everything. I figured 35 at the time of the end of the campaign was a reasonably safe average, and actuarial tables say one of that group, for a group the size of 5342, moves upstate to the farm with all the other puppies, once every 34 days.

Actually, I think it could be higher. If you watched Robotech as a child, it would have been 1985. Assume age of 10, and you have backers born 1975. They should be 40+, so the actuarial result is worse.

Note that the rewards are still owed to the estate of the deceased...

I'm 42, have recently found that I have heart problems, plus High Blood Pressure, working in a high stress job. Statistically, I will be dead within the next 5 years. I am working to prevent this, but the damage is done. I will probably not see wave 2 released.

I was diagnosed last year, after this project was already a year overdue. Correlation?

 megatrons2nd wrote:
I'm 42, have recently found that I have heart problems, plus High Blood Pressure, working in a high stress job. Statistically, I will be dead within the next 5 years. I am working to prevent this, but the damage is done. I will probably not see wave 2 released.

I was diagnosed last year, after this project was already a year overdue. Correlation?

Hang in there. I had cancer last year but I am recovering pretty good now.

Good God, this thread gets more depressing each day.

I didn't even fund the Kickstarter. I come to see the half arsed updated emails PB sends out and to guage the future of the game. Both are equally disappointing.

Oh god, it just dawned on me in the time that this Kickstarter has been running I've gotten married, conceived a child, and said child is already a year old. It's a sad day when you have to measure a timeline for some toys in major life events.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Actually, I think it could be higher. If you watched Robotech as a child, it would have been 1985. Assume age of 10, and you have backers born 1975. They should be 40+, so the actuarial result is worse.

Note that the rewards are still owed to the estate of the deceased...

he did call it an average.

Some backers watched at a young age (I was 6 when I got into the series, and 33 when the campaign ended in 2013), and there'll be fans brought in years and decades ago by older fans, by Macross stuff they picked up, etc.

I think it's a safe bet the average backer skews older, but let's not get really dark here. Starting from 40 or older would probably be... more depressing than we really want to get.

But the sad fact remains we're approaching the 3 year mark. That's roughly 1/15th the average north american's life expectancy. So when people say "omg be patient you whiners", I think they're overlook the raw scale of time we're talking about here.

Especially since it'd take another 1/15th to assemble this gak and probably one more to paint it up. :-P

 combat engineer wrote:
I didn't even fund the Kickstarter. I come to see he half arsed update emails PB sends out and to guage the future of the game. Both are equally disappointing.

Seconded.

 Forar wrote:
But the sad fact remains we're approaching the 3 year mark. That's roughly 1/15th the average north american's life expectancy. So when people say "omg be patient you whiners", I think they're overlook the raw scale of time we're talking about here.

Especially since it'd take another 1/15th to assemble this gak and probably one more to paint it up. :-P

so the average North American lives 45 years? crud I should have been dead before this project even started.

Yeah, I think his math's a bit off there!

And that's why Forar isn't allowed to Math before he has had coffee. Though to be fair, if obesity rates keep going up, 45 might not be far off... >.>

1/25th.

So hey, down to ~12% of our life expectancy for delivery/building/painting! Progress!

But seriously, anyone who thinks that 3 fething years is still "oh shut up and be patient" numbers is out of their fething mind.

In the time that Palladium has started this project, Wyrd has moved from Metal to Plastic, and released like four hundred different figures.

... that may be hyperbole.

 Forar wrote:
But seriously, anyone who thinks that 3 fething years is still "oh shut up and be patient" numbers is out of their fething mind.

In the time that Palladium has started this project, Wyrd has moved from Metal to Plastic, and released like four hundred different figures.

... that may be hyperbole.

Not by much. In a full year's time Palladium hasn't really shown anything of substance.

Kingdom Death, at least gives quarterly(?) Updates, but at least those Updates have been truly, mouth-wateringly substantial. Wave 3 (Expansions), I've seen that he's got sprues made, print in pre-production, and so fort. Real progress. And Adam makes some effort to communicate in the Comments when he's not absolutely buried.

Wyrd has redone their entire range, releasing what looks to be 6+ Crews for 7 factions, each with roughly half-dozen models? So that's ~250 figures just in the starting Crews, plus another 50-100 models (including TTB) to round them out. I estimate 300-350 models by Wyrd in the conversion from M1E metal to M2E plastic. I would not be surprised if the current count is pushing 400, but yeah. Go Wyrd! Speaking of, I recently traded to get a boatload of M1E metal, but the new stuff is amazing!

I've never understood why Wyrd basically only shows renders and not actual models, and I'm always amazed at how hard it is to find decent pics of their plastics!

Anyway...has Wayne or PB ever expressed any shame over just how wrong that Feb 28, 2015 'update' was?

 Alpharius wrote:
Anyway...has Wayne or PB ever expressed any shame over just how wrong that Feb 28, 2015 'update' was?

how can they when they are shameless ?

 Alpharius wrote:
Anyway...has Wayne or PB ever expressed any shame over just how wrong that Feb 28, 2015 'update' was?

PB? Show shame? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....oh feth me that was a good one Alph. Definitely put that one in your five-minute set for your miniatures comedy act.

More likely they will point the finger at someone like Rick who is the Ringleader of All Detractors and the Prince of All Lies (told about PB). Due to those persons, they can't show their not-progress because mean people on the Internet will be mean to them. Or they'll throw some other lackey or contractor under the bus because blame-shifting is PB's stock-in-trade and not so much self-awareness nor humility. At least one of those things are required to experience "shame" after all.

John, that Dragon has got to be eleventy billion pieces, right? Cause it couldn't possibly be done any other way.

I still laugh when I look at my plastic Witchling Stalkers, and those are single piece. That's why Wayne's argument rang hollow. When it's handled competently, by a company that knows what they're doing, and willing to explore options instead of going with the lowest bidder, plastics can be quite well handled.

As for the actuarial thing, yes, 35 was an intentional undercut, as we don't have any hard information on it, and I didn't want to be accused of "ginning the numbers to make PB look worse than they are". Calculating for 40 is easy. It's about 40% more likely, and gets steadily worse each year. Hmm... I just checked my math, and it seems I did it wrong or misremembered the initial calculation (was over a year ago I did it). Either that, or the actuarial table is different than when I did it. Though that's unlikely.

So, here's the revised amounts, for 35 and 40.
Number of backers* that are dead and buried since January 1st, 2014, the date this campaign was officially late : 14 & 22
Date the next (15th and 23rd) backer* shuffles off this mortal coil : This Sunday, 7th Feb & Wednesday 10th Feb.
Date the 27th backer* (making it fully 1/2 of 1% of backers) carks it : Thursday, 12 October next year, and Thursday, 23 June this year.

It doesn't factor in cumulative effect (which would make the numbers in each case worse). But it's accurate enough to see that it's not good. But at least that's a couple dozen refunds Kevin won't have to issue, so umm... yay?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
I've never understood why Wyrd basically only shows renders and not actual models, and I'm always amazed at how hard it is to find decent pics of their plastics!

Anyway...has Wayne or PB ever expressed any shame over just how wrong that Feb 28, 2015 'update' was?

For the Wyrd stuff, they show a fair bit in the Plastic Build Instructions, but I'm guessing they don't show sprues in general, because unlike PB, they want to show what they look like under the best circumstances? Something PB should have done by getting the miniatures properly assembled, painted and photographed by professionals. But I'm sure Kevin will get right on that, after he's done missing Murmurs.

As for Wayne showing shame, like Krisnath said, nope. Heck, I don't think they've acknowledged those missed announcements in the last year, except in the vaguest manner possible. ie, "we'll try to do better going forward", as a reference to missed dates, but not specifying what was missed. I think the closest that was given was in regards to the Wave 2 paper standees in a PBWU, where Kevin threw Wayne under the bus, that they couldn't put the standees up until the stat cards were done. And then completely forgotten about since.

 Krinsath wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Anyway...has Wayne or PB ever expressed any shame over just how wrong that Feb 28, 2015 'update' was?

PB? Show shame? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....oh feth me that was a good one Alph. Definitely put that one in your five-minute set for your miniatures comedy act.

More likely they will point the finger at someone like Rick who is the Ringleader of All Detractors and the Prince of All Lies (told about PB). Due to those persons, they can't show their not-progress because mean people on the Internet will be mean to them. Or they'll throw some other lackey or contractor under the bus because blame-shifting is PB's stock-in-trade and not so much self-awareness nor humility. At least one of those things are required to experience "shame" after all.

Before that it was a poster called Logan who got blamed for being a conspiracy of one and the rest of us were his sockpuppets because there couldnt possibly be more than one hater at a time.

@Morgan - I don't care how many pieces it is - I've built RRT, so, by Yan Lo's beard, I can build that! That Shadow Emissary is gorgeous, and I want one!

As I noted, backers passing on does not absolve Palladium of their responsibility to deliver product. The pledge is owed to the estate of the deceased; however, it is likely that the executor and heirs may have less interest than the decedent, so their pledge shipment may be deferred without the usual angst for going last.

I also agree that it would be nice for Wyrd to show a picture of the painted model front and center of their packaging like GW does. They can have the 3-D render on the back, but those pretty pictures from GW do sell minis!

What's weird (...) is that Wyrd used to do the Painted Mini pic, and (in this amateur's opinion) they were pretty damned good paint jobs.

Then, I think around the time of the move to plastics, if not specifically around that change, they just started showing the grey renders.

I'm not sure why they moved, but I too liked the painted figure on the box.

Quicker production time, probably.

For a color painted mini on the packaging they'd have to get a completed mini (probably want an actual plastic, not a 3D-printed prototype). Then they get it to a painter. Then the painter gets it back to them. Then professional photography.

...and THEN they can finally put that picture on the box and print the packaging.

Seems like a potentially inevitable delay that they've decided they don't need.

I know last time I was at Gen Con their booth was gigantic and continually busy. Probably second in activity to FFG from what I saw.

I can't recall it being packed when I was at Gencon 2015, but it was definitely massive, and they had more (and larger/better) terrain set up in the gaming area (tournaments, open play, etc) than a lot of other games.

Shame my crew had a bit of a falling out over the 1.5 to 2E shift (some antsy Warhammer players that took issue with an edition change, it was... complicated). There were elements I wasn't a fan of with 2E, but when I was in the beta, I did like the random scheme availability and the bluff potential from objective marker placement.

Merijeek wrote:
Quicker production time, probably.

For a color painted mini on the packaging they'd have to get a completed mini (probably want an actual plastic, not a 3D-printed prototype). Then they get it to a painter. Then the painter gets it back to them. Then professional photography.

...and THEN they can finally put that picture on the box and print the packaging.

It's not only that I think. There's a number of painted minis that looked hideous when photographed, but was more the problem of the paint job and/ or the photography. Might be better off just raw plastic/ resin or renders.

 Lynx7725 wrote:
It's not only that I think. There's a number of painted minis that looked hideous when photographed, but was more the problem of the paint job and/ or the photography. Might be better off just raw plastic/ resin or renders.

I could open the can of worms and say digital touchup can be an option.
What works for living, breathing models should be ok for miniature models: blemish removal, shaving off a couple grams...
Seeing renders still does not give a clear sense of scale to me.
I found nothing ruins what was an "awesome" paintjob more than a high resolution picture viewed at 6X or greater than actual size of the model.

A side note on this topic with RRT: Those Veritechs are hard to do justice painting, the details are so small paint tends to look blobby and unless you use a technical pen, most lines look too wide and wobbly. Normal 3' viewing distance, just block painting looks good never mind if shading is done.

 Talizvar wrote:
A side note on this topic with RRT: Those Veritechs are hard to do justice painting, the details are so small paint tends to look blobby and unless you use a technical pen, most lines look too wide and wobbly. Normal 3' viewing distance, just block painting looks good never mind if shading is done.

I think part of the problem may be that the initial modelling was done at a large scale, and then the modeler just scaled it down and left it at that. I've been messing around with 3D printers, I'm finding that approach to be largely just poor at results -- you should model for the scale you want to produce at. Some details are fiddly when reduced and they add up to a shapeless blob after a while.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Lynx7725 wrote:
It's not only that I think. There's a number of painted minis that looked hideous when photographed, but was more the problem of the paint job and/ or the photography. Might be better off just raw plastic/ resin or renders.

I could open the can of worms and say digital touchup can be an option.
What works for living, breathing models should be ok for miniature models: blemish removal, shaving off a couple grams...
Seeing renders still does not give a clear sense of scale to me.
I found nothing ruins what was an "awesome" paintjob more than a high resolution picture viewed at 6X or greater than actual size of the model.

A side note on this topic with RRT: Those Veritechs are hard to do justice painting, the details are so small paint tends to look blobby and unless you use a technical pen, most lines look too wide and wobbly. Normal 3' viewing distance, just block painting looks good never mind if shading is done.

It's not the size of the details that's the issue, the issue is the bloody seams. Extremely difficult to get smooth enough for a full on macro shot, which you need for box art.
This is about the best I could get, after around 2 hours assembly/putty work per piece. I still need to do a few more custom decals for this (numbering) but I'm not very motivated on it right now. Too much other stuff to do that's actually playable.

winterdyne wrote:
It's not the size of the details that's the issue, the issue is the bloody seams. Extremely difficult to get smooth enough for a full on macro shot, which you need for box art.
This is about the best I could get, after around 2 hours assembly/putty work per piece. I still need to do a few more custom decals for this (numbering) but I'm not very motivated on it right now.
Too much other stuff to do that's actually playable.

Spend enough time you can "make a silk purse out of a sow's ear".
Mighty fine painting I might add, I had seen that earlier.
I agree that many flat areas they decided to make their parting line cuts which requires a fair bit of time getting smooth again after bonding.
Legs, arms and gun spring to mind.
I can sympathize on the amount of work being hard to justify for a poorly supported game.
I would have suggested before that it should still make you happy to see these in miniature but I have seen that there are so many more worthy model kits to build for Robotech / Macross.
I was tempted to look at the 1/100 scale kits that are somewhat plentiful.

I will keep pounding away at mine until I have exhausted about as much of an army I can make for both sides and then start getting creative in making the other missing wave2 models.

I keep looking at that "Monster" destroid toy at 1/200 scale and think "with a little screw hole filling and some paint... hmmmm...".

 Lynx7725 wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
Quicker production time, probably.

For a color painted mini on the packaging they'd have to get a completed mini (probably want an actual plastic, not a 3D-printed prototype). Then they get it to a painter. Then the painter gets it back to them. Then professional photography.

...and THEN they can finally put that picture on the box and print the packaging.

It's not only that I think. There's a number of painted minis that looked hideous when photographed, but was more the problem of the paint job and/ or the photography. Might be better off just raw plastic/ resin or renders.

meh when it comes to my RRT minis i'm only doing table top standard since they are not even worthy of a decent paint job in my books

Very nice work! When you say two hours per piece, do you mean piece as in individual part on the sprue or piece as in individual model?

winterdyne wrote:

It's not the size of the details that's the issue, the issue is the bloody seams. Extremely difficult to get smooth enough for a full on macro shot, which you need for box art.This is about the best I could get, after around 2 hours assembly/putty work per piece.

Those look very nice. Yes, I agree about the seams. My Destroids have.. not nice ones that are very hard to get at once assembled. That one I don't mind chalking up to inexperience on PB's part, but a smart/ experienced mold-cutter could have minimized it. I'm not convinced that they learnt from Wave 1 on mold-line placement.

Overall, it's just a big hassle to get one mini assembled. PB apparently learnt that lesson, but I'm not sure their parts reduction drive that took well over a year+ will have any results, really.

I mean 2 hours per model. For fun though the Yamato 1/48 Valkyrie toys are exceptional to work with. I presume the 1/60 lot (later by Arcadia) and the newer bandai stuff are of similar quality. Expensive to source though outside of Japan.

I'm tired of the bs. I just filed with the FTC last night. Later on today I'll file with the MG AG. Now's the time. I'm not waiting till next season to be told just to keep the faith. Feth that.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
I'm tired of the bs. I just filed with the FTC last night. Later on today I'll file with the MG AG. Now's the time. I'm not waiting till next season to be told just to keep the faith. Feth that.

Good, good! Let your anger flow!
<Ahem>Adding your voice to others that filed is appreciated: Welcome to the dark side.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Cypher-xv wrote:
I'm tired of the bs. I just filed with the FTC last night. Later on today I'll file with the MG AG. Now's the time. I'm not waiting till next season to be told just to keep the faith. Feth that.

Good, good! Let your anger flow!
<Ahem>Adding your voice to others that filed is appreciated: Welcome to the dark side.

In that case I'll be emo Kylo Ren.

 Cypher-xv wrote:

In that case I'll be emo Kylo Ren.

Um, is there a non-emo Kylo Ren? That's like saying you'll be a short Yoda or fat Jabba.

Thanks for that Warboss.

Now, anytime I read this thread, I'm going to be thinking "Fat Jabba" to myself!

And if that means that the one we saw on screen was "Thin Jabba"!

 warboss wrote:

 Cypher-xv wrote:

In that case I'll be emo Kylo Ren.

Um, is there a non-emo Kylo Ren? That's like saying you'll be a short Yoda or fat Jabba.

Touché Boss of Wars

By the way this was posted on Funny Or Die. Oh the irony.

@Conrad and Cypher: thanks... a bit of levity in a thread so filled with suck like this project is nice one in a while.

Also, I agree that Admiral Quackbar should top that list. It's a tquack!

A "Fat Kevin" sounds like something that a fan friend gets when they're in Kevin's presence.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
"A Fat Kevin" sounds like something that a fan friend gets when they're in Kevin's presence.

Hahaha

Or if they get reaaallly excitied they get A Third Kevin.

To keep things civil I think we should all keep our own personal Kevin in our pants.

Sorry, I don't own a pair that are big enough to hold a whole Kevin.

I certainly feel like I have been stiffed by Kevin

Well, I'm not surprised he has the staff all taking pictures of Geese.

He's nothing but a huge Male Hen, after all!

Meh. Dumb joke deleted.

Morgan, you should join us on the Dork side!

Waiting for someone to post a meme of him doing his "Yes" pose and making a reference to using his fist...

 n815e wrote:
Waiting for someone to post a meme of him doing his "Yes" pose and making a reference to using his fist...

Here you go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This meme gave me a fat Kevin

I'm more than a little surprised that he has books written by people other than himself on those shelves.

Merijeek wrote:
I'm more than a little surprised that he has books written by people other than himself on those shelves.

He scribbled some in the margin of those titles, thereby allowing him to claim authorship. Standard PB practice.

This thread finds new ways to quack me up.

...

...

...

I'll just get me coat...

Merijeek wrote:
I'm more than a little surprised that he has books written by people other than himself on those shelves.

Ask the authors of dead reign how well that worked out for them. Or any freelancer for that matter.

Actually it is about 50/50 when itcomes to freelancers and how they feel.

Some feel screwed. Some feel very happy. Others just dont care to discuss it either way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually it is about 50/50 when itcomes to freelancers and how they feel.

Some feel screwed. Some feel very happy. Others just dont care to discuss it either way.

So did the lancer and ghost model change since we saw them last? They still look like crud compared to the art.

 Swabby wrote:
So did the lancer and ghost model change sonce we saw them last? They still look like crud compared to the art.

The last time we saw those models is pretty much the last time we got a proper update almost exactly a year ago. They still publicly look like what they previewed because in the entire year since Palladium hasn't bothered releasing ANY proof of actual progress unfortunately.

Well at least it isn't my imagination. They look exactly the same.

From the latest weekly Rifter subscription newsletter:

UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
This week there has been a lot of discussions and planning about new Robotech® product releases and the ideas, products and people to help us facilitate our plans as we put them in place. Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is our top priority for 2016 and 2017, but there are a lot of moving pieces and we want our next push to really deliver. We’ll be keeping you posted as details are nailed down.

2017 has now officially been mentioned! We have been updated!

Also:

Strategicon – February 12-15, 2016
Convention Name: Strategicon – Orccon.
Dates: February 12-15, 2016; Presidents’ Day weekend.
Location: Los Angeles, California.
Website: http://www.strategicon.net/
Supporting: Role-playing games and a major Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Build and Paint Workshop and Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Tournaments. Note: Last year's RRT tournaments were 300 and 1000 points each. Anticipating 76+ participants for the RRT tournament thus far.

Anticipating 76+ participants for a relatively unknown convention? A number higher than pretty much every RRT tourney up until this point combined? I guess they're anticipating that like they were anticipating doing 2-3 murmurs each week as a new years resolution (broken two weeks after they made it with ZERO updates in the second week) and 20+ books per year (or more recently 6+ books in the first 6 months of 2016). Also, it might be difficult to get those numbers given that the no robotech events are listed on the con's website one week before it starts...

http://www.strategicon.net/index.php?goto=events

Also, Forar, are you in the Toronto area? I thought I remembered you mentioning something GTA (and not related to the video game). If you're going to Anime North, you can meet Kevin Siembieda and Chuck Walton and ask them for an update without them closing the ticket without responding or sending a form letter response to an email.

Kevin Siembieda and Charles Walton II are guests at the 2016 Anime North.

My bet - there were 76xY backers in California.

So, there should be at least 76 people at this tournament.

Hopefully we can get pictures from someone. You know PB won't be producing any.

Hell, I'm Downtown Toronto. But Anime North tickets are expensive enough that my interest is minimal in just paying to swing by and mock them in person. Though I do have a couple of friends working the Con, I'll have to see if I might be able to pop in with their help.

And yeah, the 2017 mention didn't go unnoticed. That doesn't bode well at all. "Heating up in the spring/summer", and 2016/2017? Heh.

Looks like people are getting banned from posting on PB's FB posts. There're also erasing posts.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Forar wrote:
But seriously, anyone who thinks that 3 fething years is still "oh shut up and be patient" numbers is out of their fething mind.

In the time that Palladium has started this project, Wyrd has moved from Metal to Plastic, and released like four hundred different figures.

... that may be hyperbole.

Not by much. In a full year's time Palladium hasn't really shown anything of substance.

Kingdom Death, at least gives quarterly(?) Updates, but at least those Updates have been truly, mouth-wateringly substantial. Wave 3 (Expansions), I've seen that he's got sprues made, print in pre-production, and so fort. Real progress. And Adam makes some effort to communicate in the Comments when he's not absolutely buried.

Wyrd has redone their entire range, releasing what looks to be 6+ Crews for 7 factions, each with roughly half-dozen models? So that's ~250 figures just in the starting Crews, plus another 50-100 models (including TTB) to round them out. I estimate 300-350 models by Wyrd in the conversion from M1E metal to M2E plastic. I would not be surprised if the current count is pushing 400, but yeah. Go Wyrd! Speaking of, I recently traded to get a boatload of M1E metal, but the new stuff is amazing!

Spoiler:

Do want!

It feels like salt in the wound to say, 'welcome to 1996,' but we've reached the point where Kevin has been using the same SSDD bs excuses for non-delivery of products literally for decades (I don't know if one RPG book that went up for pre-order and PB took money for in the early 90s ever got delivered - I know it hadn't by the mid 2000s.) The real wonder is that despite all of that failure (and the Crisis of Treachery when a friend embezzled money and stole from the company) PB has yet to completely implode.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Looks like people are getting banned from posting on PB's FB posts. There're also erasing posts.

Yup. As I said in a message that'll likely get deleted, or at the least get me banned, much easier to ban people than actually address their concerns.

And there's at least one person cheering them on. Cause people can be great like that.

But hey, at least they're treating their FB page like their Forum page. Ruled with an iron fist that will not tolerate dissent, and only really available to those that can already see the glory of Kevin.

Well, something shines out of his backside, but don't forget that all that glitters isn't Gold!

 warboss wrote:
Also:

Strategicon – February 12-15, 2016
Convention Name: Strategicon – Orccon.
Dates: February 12-15, 2016; Presidents’ Day weekend.
Location: Los Angeles, California.
Website: http://www.strategicon.net/
Supporting: Role-playing games and a major Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Build and Paint Workshop and Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Tournaments. Note: Last year's RRT tournaments were 300 and 1000 points each. Anticipating 76+ participants for the RRT tournament thus far.

Anticipating 76+ participants for a relatively unknown convention? A number higher than pretty much every RRT tourney up until this point combined? I guess they're anticipating that like they were anticipating doing 2-3 murmurs each week as a new years resolution (broken two weeks after they made it with ZERO updates in the second week) and 20+ books per year (or more recently 6+ books in the first 6 months of 2016). Also, it might be difficult to get those numbers given that the no robotech events are listed on the con's website one week before it starts...

http://www.strategicon.net/index.php?goto=events

Yeah, given that Orrcon (the one of three conventions that Strategicon run, that is the one being mentioned) had "over 2000 attendees" last year, and was their largest attendance in two decades at the time (since beaten by Gateway with over 2100), expecting that many people to attend an event that's never shown a large playerbase (the two cons we have data for had 20 slots each, and averaged about half that), and as you said isn't listed in the event guide (neither was any result shown for Palladium, or several of the more common PB universes), let alone a major push elsewhere.

And yes, with a week before it starts, it sounds excessively Kevinesque. Of absolutely wishful thinking, rather than the actual reality of the situation.

It's also interesting to note that as of yet, noone has put their hand up to run a tournament at GenCon, and submissions need to be in to PB this weekend, as "events submitted AFTER FEBRUARY 14, 2016 are not likely to get listed in the Gen Con Pre-Registration and onsite program book.". If they can't get anyone to run one there, and they're not having an Event at Adepticon, I wonder how they're going to accomplish a "relaunch"? Seriously, if RRT was half the priority they claim it to be, they'd have a PB staffer, or at least a permanent helpermonkey (Carmen, NMI, etc) run the tournament, rather than depending on the kindness of strangers. If they're not willing to step up, why should anyone else?

 Bookwrack wrote:
It feels like salt in the wound to say, 'welcome to 1996,' but we've reached the point where Kevin has been using the same SSDD bs excuses for non-delivery of products literally for decades (I don't know if one RPG book that went up for pre-order and PB took money for in the early 90s ever got delivered - I know it hadn't by the mid 2000s.) The real wonder is that despite all of that failure (and the Crisis of Treachery when a friend embezzled money and stole from the company) PB has yet to completely implode.

You mean the Mechanoid Space book? No, it hasn't been released. Actually, they still allow you to preorder it, for 25 bucks:

http://palladium-store.com/1001/product/320-Mechanoids-Space.html

Kevin Siembieda wrote:I want Mechanoids® Space to be truly epic and boggle the imagination.

Well... good job! 27 years in preorder certainly boggle the imagination.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Looks like people are getting banned from posting on PB's FB posts. There're also erasing posts.

Yes. I've evidently been banned for making negative comments about PB. Kevin has also posted a message that PB is looking into taking legal action to not fulfill their RTT obligations to people who were mean to them! I wish I had listened to the people who warned me against PB before I gave them hundreds of my dollars.

The full comment makes me highly suspicious of trolling:

The comments from the very small minority of people we have banned are no longer welcome on our page. Someone said to me once, "to increase business moral all you need to do is fire the unhappy people."

We are currently seeking legal avenues with the intention to not supply Wave 2 product to those that have acted to cause defamation on our page. This is to seek restitution for the inaccurate and unwarranted representation those detractors have given my... I mean OUR great company.

We are not to blame in this scenario at all. It is everyone else's fault and we have been left to clean up the mess. Palladium is new to the miniature market and have been left to forge our own path as we learn this new and exciting endeavour. We will take as much time as needed to make sure we do this right and not a year sooner.

Emphasis has been added to a few points. In order:
-I'm pretty sure Kevin knows the difference between moral and morale, even if he doesn't care about either.
-Kevin doesn't write corrections to the middle of his thoughts as though he's speaking, even if he does often take a conversational tone.
-The bit about it being everyone else's fault is something we often deride PB for, but contravenes earlier statements made by PB.
-"Not a year sooner" really begins to stretch credulity, as Kevin would be more likely to promise it tomorrow than admit it will be next decade
-"Kevin's" profile picture depicts him holding RRT product. While it's probably the biggest cash infusion for the company, it's quite obvious -it's not a product that Kevin would be so strongly attached to nor does it have ads for PB and future products on the public page.

Final nail in the coffin for me on believing this post on its face is the complete lack of (c) and (tm) throughout. Plus as we all know Facebook is nearly impossible to set up, especially in the PB offices.

So that goes into the "needs citation" column for me before I'd panic too much. It could be Kevin, because he's shown a certain amount of deranged behavior in the past, but a lot of little details are off. While Kevin has trolled RRT backers for close to a year, this seems like a different one.

Damnit, I actually missed their quiet 2017 update.

Frankly, it seems like they accomplish in one week what I'm expected to complete in a day. Sounds like that they had some chitchat in the pantry about direction and progress of RRT and that's the effort they devoted to RRT for the week.

 Bookwrack wrote:

It feels like salt in the wound to say, 'welcome to 1996,' but we've reached the point where Kevin has been using the same SSDD bs excuses for non-delivery of products for decades (I don't know if one RPG book that went up for pre-order and PB took money for in the early 90s ever got delivered - I know it hadn't by the mid 2000s.) The real wonder is that despite all of that failure (and the Crisis of Treachery when a friend embezzled money and stole from the company) PB has yet to completely implode.

Point of order - Palladium's pre-order system only charges money when the product is released. So while some books have remained in pre-order for years, tthat money was never collected from those who made orders.

Obviously this does not apply to their crowdfunded products.

But how easy is it to cancel that pre-order on their system? If you can't, you may be in for a shock when they finally say "It's out, so you now owe us the money for it. And by the way, we're charging you extra for the fact that the credit card number you gave us 27 years ago is no longer valid."

If you can cancel, how many people did so before the credit card expired and won't get charged or get a copy? How many forgot all about it and in another 10 years or so will end up with a situation as above?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mdauben wrote:

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Looks like people are getting banned from posting on PB's FB posts. There're also erasing posts.

Yes. I've evidently been banned for making negative comments about PB. Kevin has also posted a message that PB is looking into taking legal action to not fulfill their RTT obligations to people who were mean to them! I wish I had listened to the people who warned me against PB before I gave them hundreds of my dollars.

I hope that IF someone does get a note like that, they take him to see Judge Judy. Hell, I'm from England, but if I found out that was happening, I'd get tickets to get over there and be in the gallery that day! Quickest court case in history, and a good chance of getting a refund and damages, all on international TV!

It'll be interesting to see who qualifies under the "not sending things to people who were mean to us" category.

Sure, that one guy who said that Kevin should kill himself was well over the line (and a number of familiar names including Mike and Jaymz, both of whom have expressed considerable frustration with the campaign, called him out on it), but what about those who have expressed themselves more constructively?

Though as someone points out on the page, it seems to be a brand new FB account, so perhaps it's just a troll with a good sense on how to write in Kevin's tone/style.

That said, I'm glad to see there are some people who can still point out that this running gag is unacceptable, but with them banning detractors those posts will also stand out more, so it wouldn't surprise me if the axe continued to swing as the days and weeks go by.

Edit: also worth noting, RRT 'being a priority for 2016/2017' isn't mutually exclusive with delivering wave 2 this year. It would require giving them vastly more benefit of the doubt than they deserve, as quietly tucking 'bad news' in like this is totally their style, but to save someone the trouble of pointing it out, I figured I'd mention it myself. I don't buy it for a second, I do think this is them trying to ease into telling us they are immensely fethed, but one could argue (in a wonderfully Palladium'esque way) that it's not impossible. I mean, there are other possibilities.

Like 2017 being when they might launch the next Kickstarter.

I'd be interested to see them try that again. On one hand, they'd have a LOT more control if they did a NG style in-house crowdfunding campaign, but on the other hand, they wouldn't get a fraction of the money a platform like KS or Indiegogo or whatever would bring.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Looks like people are getting banned from posting on PB's FB posts. There're also erasing posts.

They TOLD Jaymz that there is a lot of work in doing a Facebook page. But nooooooooo.

Now NMI needs to double the amount of time he spends stomping around in his jackboots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynx7725 wrote:
Damnit, I actually missed their quiet 2017 update.

Frankly, it seems like they accomplish in one week what I'm expected to complete in a day. Sounds like that they had some chitchat in the pantry about direction and progress of RRT and that's the effort they devoted to RRT for the week.

Wayne: Kevin, should be discuss RRT?
Kevin: feth that.

(Wayne checks box on lawyer-supplied form)

Wayne: Mission Accomplished!

 Krinsath wrote:
The full comment makes me highly suspicious of trolling:

The comments from the very small minority of people we have banned are no longer welcome on our page. Someone said to me once, "to increase business moral all you need to do is fire the unhappy people."

We are currently seeking legal avenues with the intention to not supply Wave 2 product to those that have acted to cause defamation on our page. This is to seek restitution for the inaccurate and unwarranted representation those detractors have given my... I mean OUR great company.

We are not to blame in this scenario at all. It is everyone else's fault and we have been left to clean up the mess. Palladium is new to the miniature market and have been left to forge our own path as we learn this new and exciting endeavour. We will take as much time as needed to make sure we do this right and not a year sooner.

Emphasis has been added to a few points. In order:
-I'm pretty sure Kevin knows the difference between moral and morale, even if he doesn't care about either.
-Kevin doesn't write corrections to the middle of his thoughts as though he's speaking, even if he does often take a conversational tone.
-The bit about it being everyone else's fault is something we often deride PB for, but contravenes earlier statements made by PB.
-"Not a year sooner" really begins to stretch credulity, as Kevin would be more likely to promise it tomorrow than admit it will be next decade
-"Kevin's" profile picture depicts him holding RRT product. While it's probably the biggest cash infusion for the company, it's quite obvious -it's not a product that Kevin would be so strongly attached to nor does it have ads for PB and future products on the public page.

Final nail in the coffin for me on believing this post on its face is the complete lack of (c) and (tm) throughout. Plus as we all know Facebook is nearly impossible to set up, especially in the PB offices.

So that goes into the "needs citation" column for me before I'd panic too much. It could be Kevin, because he's shown a certain amount of deranged behavior in the past, but a lot of little details are off. While Kevin has trolled RRT backers for close to a year, this seems like a different one.

Just a few things on this, for those who are filing complaints, and I'll point out I'm not, I'd include this as it can be construed as a threat to deter people from complaining. It should also be reported to Kickstarter they are doing so.
If this is not actually Palladium posting that, it's up to them to announce it and take action.

At a glance, it seems the comment from "Kevin" has been deleted.

In other news, PB Newsletter comments about RRT are up over 60 pages on Google Docs, and I've only skimmed through 2012, 2013, and the first few of 2014.

Ugh, so much bullgak to trudge through.

Did the troll account that posted the stuff above about legal recourse (whether troll fake or actual Kevin S. account trolling) of not delivering to angry customers get their comments deleted? Or did they leave it up? It's not really an indicator either way if deleted as stupid things said by actual public people like celebrities and politicians are posted/removed all the time as are comments by fake accounts trying to troll but I figured I'd ask. If it were left up though, that might mean he signed up for a personal account and accidentally used it to post (instead of the corporate account).

I'm not seeing it on their FB page comments, so whether it was deleted by PB or by the 'Kevin', it at least appears to be gone.

It's possible it had very locked down privacy permissions, but when I glanced at it, it seemed to have been created in 2016, if not literally hours or days prior (it had naught but a profile pic and 'created in 2016' note.

Ahhh, there it is.

Just asked PB to refund my money one more time. If I don't hear from them I'm actually going to file with the FTC specifically about the backerkit items I pre-ordered since those were separate product from the Kickstarter project. Maybe the agency would see that as an easier to handle item than the muddy waters that are a Kickstarter project.

After this I'm just going to sit back and wait. PB isn't going to make it right and no amount of nagging them will do a damned thing beyond raising my blood pressure. Kickstarter isn't stepping up to help either since they got their money and no one is threatening actual legal action. Kevin has my money hostage and I can't do a thing about it. The lies, lack of solid factual info, and the sliding completion dates have just worn me out. I've filed, what else can I possibly do?

Has anyone considered small claims court?
Offer to return unopened boxes for full refund.

 Genoside07 wrote:
Has anyone considered small claims court?
Offer to return unopened boxes for full refund.

Iirc (not a lawyer) from some web research (apply salt as needed), you generally can only file against a company in their home state (Michigan) or possibly another state where they are physically present even if only temporarily doing business (so Indiana because of gencon for example). Beyond the cost of filing and serving them making it not worth it based on the remaining percentage value of the average pledge, it just isn't likely legally possible for most backers. Ironically, Forar and friends might have a shot if Canadian courts work that way during Anime North.

Wouldn't fly for anything but backerkit purchase and then only in whatever the statutory returns period for michigan is.

Backers have not explicitly made a purchase.

We instead have a contractual obligation on PBs part to deliver promised rewards, or to refund if they cannot or will not deliver.

Now they can argue that till the cows come home, but they are also obliged to make a 'good faith' effort to deliver the reward.

'Good faith' does not mean that they, or we, need to believe they are working correctly. It effectively means that they must adhere to relevant professional standards of quality and method for the field of endeavour they are operating in.

In short they are contractually obliged to not be fethers about it. Guess where they've dropped the ball?

Heh, I should be a paralegal or something:

http://www.manteselaw.com/files/The%20UCC%20and%20Keeping%20the%20Good%20Faith.pdf

does anyone feel like this update just pushed the release date on wave 2 to 2017 ?
"UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
This week there has been a lot of discussions and planning about new Robotech® product releases and the ideas, products and people to help us facilitate our plans as we put them in place. Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is our top priority for 2016 and 2017, but there are a lot of moving pieces and we want our next push to really deliver. We’ll be keeping you posted as details are nailed down."

Also PB mentions something about Strategicon and how they are doing this and that and so forth there, did they bother to let Strategicon know this? hell Strategicon does not even have them as a dealer or even a sponsor, so wonder how PB intends to do all they say they are doing with no games assigned, no booth space assigned and no sign ups assigned.

Yes I've noticed. Clearly they're not making a good faith effort to finish wave two.

 Forar wrote:
And yeah, the 2017 mention didn't go unnoticed. That doesn't bode well at all. "Heating up in the spring/summer", and 2016/2017? Heh.

 Forar wrote:
Edit: also worth noting, RRT 'being a priority for 2016/2017' isn't mutually exclusive with delivering wave 2 this year. It would require giving them vastly more benefit of the doubt than they deserve, as quietly tucking 'bad news' in like this is totally their style, but to save someone the trouble of pointing it out, I figured I'd mention it myself. I don't buy it for a second, I do think this is them trying to ease into telling us they are immensely fethed, but one could argue (in a wonderfully Palladium'esque way) that it's not impossible. I mean, there are other possibilities.

Like 2017 being when they might launch the next Kickstarter.

That was just... last page. So yeah, it was noticed.

Unless most of the thread has me on Ignore.

... does most of the thread have me on ignore? :-(

 Forar wrote:

 Forar wrote:
And yeah, the 2017 mention didn't go unnoticed. That doesn't bode well at all. "Heating up in the spring/summer", and 2016/2017? Heh.

 Forar wrote:
Edit: also worth noting, RRT 'being a priority for 2016/2017' isn't mutually exclusive with delivering wave 2 this year. It would require giving them vastly more benefit of the doubt than they deserve, as quietly tucking 'bad news' in like this is totally their style, but to save someone the trouble of pointing it out, I figured I'd mention it myself. I don't buy it for a second, I do think this is them trying to ease into telling us they are immensely fethed, but one could argue (in a wonderfully Palladium'esque way) that it's not impossible. I mean, there are other possibilities.

Like 2017 being when they might launch the next Kickstarter.

That was just... last page. So yeah, it was noticed.

Unless most of the thread has me on Ignore.

... does most of the thread have me on ignore? :-(

nope it was on last page, and who lives in the past? other then PB that is.

 Forar wrote:

 Forar wrote:
And yeah, the 2017 mention didn't go unnoticed. That doesn't bode well at all. "Heating up in the spring/summer", and 2016/2017? Heh.

 Forar wrote:
Edit: also worth noting, RRT 'being a priority for 2016/2017' isn't mutually exclusive with delivering wave 2 this year. It would require giving them vastly more benefit of the doubt than they deserve, as quietly tucking 'bad news' in like this is totally their style, but to save someone the trouble of pointing it out, I figured I'd mention it myself. I don't buy it for a second, I do think this is them trying to ease into telling us they are immensely fethed, but one could argue (in a wonderfully Palladium'esque way) that it's not impossible. I mean, there are other possibilities.

Like 2017 being when they might launch the next Kickstarter.

That was just... last page. So yeah, it was noticed.

Unless most of the thread has me on Ignore.

... does most of the thread have me on ignore? :-(

I just today got that update. I couldn't find it, so didn't comment because it was still hearsay to me. These guys are horrible. Glad to be forewarned though, it kind of lessened my rage, though I am still a bit cheesed off.

Actually Palladiums terrible customer service, constant well publicised delays etc probably make it harder to prove they are not making a 'good faith' effort to fullfill the KS

considering all their business and other RPG work is conducted in the same slow and sloppy way

After posting my final letter to PB on the project page and getting a "So sorry, much salt." response I wrote Kickstarter support one final time. Pretty much the same thing in a form letter.

The site that makes you agree to a ToS doesn't make rulings on a breach of the ToS? Sounds like they have chosen the wrong side of the battle. Sure supporting project creators means more show up and Kickstarter gets paid but holding creators to their agreement means more confidence in the site and pencils out to more money for Kickstarter as well. Seems that they want more projects and backers can go and feth off.

Which is extremely short-sighted, of course.

KS supports creators to bring in more money -> More backers get burned the same way as PB backers [amongst others] have been -> More backers refuse to back any more projects -> Less projects fund -> Less money paid to KS.

Simple cause and effect diagram, really.

@Darkminstrel: What can you reasonably expect KS to do right now? Shutting down the KS project page? That would only hurt us as the proof of how much Palladium has lied and broken promises would be harder to reference. Unless they charge every creator for insurance to cover some basic pledge amount (something I've suggested and support), they can't get our money back. It's not reasonable to expect them to sue every failed kickstarter on backers' behalf either. About the only thing I'd expect them as a responsible company to do is to NEVER EVER allow anyone who ran a kickstarter that failed to substantially deliver to run another one again. Realistically though there isn't a snowball's chance in hell of them doing that so it's up to us to make sure Palladium doesn't crowdfund successfully on their site by spreading the word until they make good on their existing promises.

@Conrad: Until backers stop backing (insert haters gonna hate variant pic here), KS won't care. The only thing that matters to them is the total amount pledged each year across all projects.

 warboss wrote:
@Darkminstrel: What can you reasonably expect KS to do right now? Shutting down the KS project page? That would only hurt us as the proof of how much Palladium has lied and broken promises would be harder to reference. Unless they charge every creator for insurance to cover some basic pledge amount (something I've suggested and support), they can't get our money back. It's not reasonable to expect them to sue every failed kickstarter on backers' behalf either. About the only thing I'd expect them as a responsible company to do is to NEVER EVER allow anyone who ran a kickstarter that failed to substantially deliver to run another one again. Realistically though there isn't a snowball's chance in hell of them doing that so it's up to us to make sure Palladium doesn't crowdfund successfully on their site by spreading the word until they make good on their existing promises.

I don't expect Kickstarter to do anything directly. But the things I think they can and should do, are firstly, actually follow up on complaints about creators from backers. Secondly, put pressure on creators to PROPERLY update and/or complete their projects. And finally, if the creator refuses to do anything, or continues to do meaningless wankery (ie, PB's issuances), threaten to issue, and then follow up with if the inactions aren't remedied, an edict stating that Kickstarter considers the project to have failed.

While it doesn't actually DO anything, it'd make the legal aspects that Kickstarter specifically state as safeguards (ToU Section 4) a lot easier for backers to accomplish. Part of the issue with trying to do so, is that as long as PB proclaim to be "working on it", and don't openly admit they can't complete it, it doesn't trip the "unable to complete the project" condition that requires a refund, regardless of the timeframe. Making it much harder to convince authorities that it's failed. If Kickstarter said a more legalistic "Yup, we think this project has failed, the creators refuse to do anything. We believe the backers that want it are entitled to a refund.", that'd go a long way IMO to pressuring the creators into offering a refund, and at the worst gives the various regulatory bodies, or private legal actions a firmer footing in taking it to court.

Also, not putting a "♥ Projects We Love" tag on the front page, would be a start. That makes me much madder than it really should. I know it's been there at least a month or two.

But that is precisely what is happening. Since this has all blown up, I have been far more, shall we say, discerning, as to the projects I have backed. One has already fulfilled and I have resin models of far higher quality that PB will ever be able to produce, and the other I am waiting on a 'delayed' pledge which I knew could not be delivered on time because the campaign was so successful they ended up quadrupling their workload to bring out not just a single episode, but 3 and a whole host of extras.

Once that has been delivered, Adios Muchachos. I'm not going to tear myself up on more things that will never be.

Yes, I'll possibly spend more in the long run as retail will cost me more than a KS pledge, but at least I'll have the comfort of knowing that I will get what I see.

I'm not predicting the fall of Ks projects based on my experience alone. The drop in numbers will be insignificant at first. Once 'word of mouth' gets hold, that number will rise. Once more people have been in the same sort of situation as we are, that number will rise. And once that minimum confidence level has been reached, it's going to be very hard indeed to turn things around.

In my own experience, it has been around 30 years since I last bought a PB product. I would have missed this one too, had it not been for .... well, ROBOTECH!

It'll take a lot more than that for me to forget this little effort. PB can survive or die, it makes absolutely no difference to me as I wouldn't give them a wooden nickel from now on. And the fact that the people behind KickStarter have blatantly sat back, belched, and said "Nothing to do with us, Sonny!" has tarred them with the same brush.

Until there is a stable competitor that offers better consumer protection, KS is going to be the leader.

Not hard at the moment, but being the leader doesn't mean you can't fail.

There are around 5,000 people who will not have anything to do with PB after this fiasco. If 10% also get turned off supporting this sort of thing, that's 500 less backers for KS, IGG, and the rest.

Every time KS don't take action to support backers with a legal grievance, hide behind "They are making a good faith effort to complete", etc then they damage their customer base. THAT is not a sound business strategy, and sounds like they (KS) have been taking lessons in company management from PB.

Every time they force a company to stick to set delivery dates, they damage the whole system. KS are, quite obviously, stuffed if they do, stuffed if they don't. But they would help their cause no end if they set out a delay policy. '+50% of original time between campaign closure and delivery is acceptable, 3 times the original time is not' would be acceptable to me, and would mean that backers would have a definite 'cut-off' date where they can file with KS and get their money back [or whatever part of it remained unfulfilled, anyway.]

I was making the 'percentage of time' based approach suggestion years ago, and I still think it's a good idea. It would be a very good reason for creators to be as accurate as they could with their estimates, and then pad on a little more, and then double it.

If a campaign tells me they're going to take 6 months and takes 2 years, that's entirely different than if they'd said they expected to take 18 months and take 2 years. Same result, but the expectations are on the same page at the start.

But how would that account for stretch goals? Obviously letting creators just change the target delivery date up until the end of the campaign would be dangerous, so perhaps this would also incentivize campaign both ways, big and small; have a huge idea for 3 dozen figures? Maybe you don't start at a 70k goal and hope for the best, or instead you do set the goal of 70k for the core set (obviously I'm using RRT here) and only release a dozen or so minis and then launch a second campaign, or use retail profits and skip crowdfunding, whatever.

Campaigns blowing up to gigantic results might feel good at the time, but far too often it just becomes an excuse for delays and problems, and I as someone with around 60 campaigns backed, I'm tired of delays an excuses. Sure, things happen, that is business/life, but there very much seems to be a pattern across a wide variety of campaigns of over-promising and under-delivering.

And if that super padded target time proves to be more than necessary, then they get to deliver X weeks or months early and look like super stars for doing it.

But I guess the common knowledge is that setting a starting goal that's absurdly low to get the (obnoxiously) coveted 'omg we funded in eighteen seconds' and 'omg we're at a billion percent of funding!' proclamations (and on the front page) seems to be the real driver.

And yes, it would be nice if KS did more than just provide the platform. That is their stated goal, but their alleged emphasis on community and giving back would be appreciated in at least holding people's feet to the fire after the money was collected. I get why they want no part in it, it's a dirty, ugly mess involving Creators who end up not knowing their donkey from a hole in the ground, and Backers who are occasionally the worst aspects of humanity all rolled into one, but there are reasonable limits that I think most outsiders could understand, let alone those who own the very platform these... 'projects' get funded upon.

RRT being an utter gakshow, combined with a few other failed campaigns, excessively delayed campaigns, and other factors have certainly made me more hesitant to back at a considerable level. My beloved Dwarven Forge are basically the exception, because they're now 3 for 3 on delivering awesome stuff at a reasonable (to me) price in a timely fashion. Flying Frog Production's "Shadows of Brimstone" is a case of something heavily delayed due to massive stretch goal bloat, but as it has become my favourite game, I'm just glad to see them making incremental progress.

But most of the others are prone to being $1-25 or so; a 'tip' to a project that I think holds potential, or maybe a low end thing. The days of dropping $50-500+ on campaigns is not quite behind me, but it's done with a lot more caution and grilling of creators.

And even that's only worth so much once they have our cash.

Projects that state up front a reasonable refund policy from the start definitely get a nod, and I think that kind of 'escape hatch' option might become a necessity for anything tempting enough to go really deep into.

 Forar wrote:
Projects that state up front a reasonable refund policy from the start definitely get a nod, and I think that kind of 'escape hatch' option might become a necessity for anything tempting enough to go really deep into.

Lol... *snicker at that last part* Kegel kickstarter.

While I agree in theory with what you and Conner said, we'd just end up in the same spot we're largely in right now. Palladium pledged to offer refunds right after saying backers get their items first in a one shipment 6-8 months after funding all the while keeping backers well informed to the goings on behind the scenes? We might have had a much stronger legal leg to stand on (as with a blanket statement from KS that if you're 200% past your delivery and it's considered failed and refunds are warranted when demanded) but we'd still be standing around doing nothing. It's simply not worth it to sue for most of us and that is the only real way of enforcing a contract. I don't think the strength of the contract is much of an issue (we can and do list the myriad of ways palladium has chosen to break it) and I suspect almost any judge would see a contract that went from 6-8 months for full delivery to 36 months for partial delivery (with no end in sight) as a breach and grounds for a refund plus possibly damages... but it has to actually get to that point and even if it did (barring governmental involvement) would be on a case/backer by case/backer basis. You can have the most iron clad contract in the world but if you can't afford to enforce it then it's not worth the electrons its stored on.

I think the only option is through the Michigan Small Claims Courts. Cost of around $25 for claims under $600. However, that means throwing good money after bad, and having to spend time and effort documenting everything so it's watertight.

It absolutely wouldn't be a silver bullet, but something would be better than nothing, or the tissue thin veneer of coverage we may or may not have now.

I foresee a day when there is law crafted to better protect Crowdfunding backers, but probably not until some Senator (or their grandchild) gets ripped off for a couple hundred bucks, or one of us becomes a congress member (obviously I won't be, so get to it Warboss!). It's not new in the usual sense of the term (KS itself being around 7 years old), but the law in general has lagged behind the internet advancing almost laughably.

Even if it just made things easier for whoever among those 100'ish MI backers, having the risk of 2-3+% of ones backer base have a fairly firm standing to tens of thousands of dollars might be a better reason to show interest rather than disdain. To share information rather than remaining silent.

I'm not expecting an overnight solution to occur, but as with many things (like making miniatures), an iterative series of steps towards improvement would be fine with me.

winterdyne wrote:
I think the only option is through the Michigan Small Claims Courts. Cost of around $25 for claims under $600. However, that means throwing good money after bad, and having to spend time and effort documenting everything so it's watertight.

http://courts.mi.gov/Self-help/center/casetype/Pages/SmallClaimsSH.aspx

I did a quick google search. I hope that helps. You'll at a minimum also have to pay for their certified mail notice of the lawsuit sent to Palladium. Reading down a bit at the douche moves section, Palladium could ask for a jury trial, full trial, or that their always ready to pounce lawyer represent them and it gets moved out of small claims to district court resulting in likely much higher fees for you to proceed. Also...

If the plaintiff does not appear and the defendant does appear, the case may be dismissed.

Since your dakka flag comes up as from the UK, the above is likely pertinent to you. If you on the other hand, want to spend about $35 USD just to mess with Palladium for a few months and piss of Kevin Siembieda enough to have him spend a full 80 hour work week crafting a weekly update, murmur, and KS update devoted to telling the world just how dastardly you are, you just might accomplish your goal. Just remember to send the news information about your lawsuit to all the appropriate news sites for the industry (RPG.net, TMP, BOLS, TGN, EnWorld, etc) for added lulz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Forar wrote:
It absolutely wouldn't be a silver bullet, but something would be better than nothing, or the tissue thin veneer of coverage we may or may not have now.

I foresee a day when there is law crafted to better protect Crowdfunding backers, but probably not until some Senator (or their grandchild) gets ripped off for a couple hundred bucks, or one of us becomes a congress member (obviously I won't be, so get to it Warboss!). It's not new in the usual sense of the term (KS itself being around 7 years old), but the law in general has lagged behind the internet advancing almost laughably.

My plans for world domination start with winning the megamillions lottery, not politics. Sorry but I've been foiled by numbers yet again! I will however make you Regent of Toronto as well as the Pastry Advisor to the Imperial Court of Me.

Yeah, it'll be a few years before anything gets done. As you said, someone important has to get screwed over before anyone makes a fuss.

From the KS comments.


"Heyas all you dissatisfied folks.
I talked with my friend. First is that because money was taken across state lines a Federal Class action is in play. Second, depending on the financial status of the company it may just be trying to bleed money from a stone. Say PB is required to refund even 500K and they only have assets of 250K (hypothetical), then after they are liquidated and creditors are paid first, backers may see almost nothing after this and lawyer fees (up to 40%). However, he referred me to a local guy that is pretty bloodthirsty and may take up a class action fairly cheap (especially if we can get the backers notified to participate saving his office the time and resources). I will be talking to him next week and see what it would cost to get the ball rolling. So how the outcome is resolved is dependent on the liquidity of the company. I will keep you all informed as other avenues are explored "

I could be satisfied with a lawsuit that put them out of business, particularly if we ended up with the Robotech license as part of a settlement. :/

I would be really happy if the licence went back to the Japanese creators.

That would then let them release all the other material direct to the US, and would make it much easier for even us Europeans to get the original and further material un the English language and not have to put up with subtitles at best.

Doesn't HG hold the copyright on RT? PB going out of business won't affect that at all

This is true, but it doesn't stop me from hoping, or being really happy if HG wanted to distance themselves from the property once they realise how much damage PB have done to it.

If you are remote and are planning some sort of local legal action, courts will often let you "appear" over the phone.

I have done so before, but it varies from County to County.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
From the KS comments.


"Heyas all you dissatisfied folks.
I talked with my friend. First is that because money was taken across state lines a Federal Class action is in play. Second, depending on the financial status of the company it may just be trying to bleed money from a stone. Say PB is required to refund even 500K and they only have assets of 250K (hypothetical), then after they are liquidated and creditors are paid first, backers may see almost nothing after this and lawyer fees (up to 40%). However, he referred me to a local guy that is pretty bloodthirsty and may take up a class action fairly cheap (especially if we can get the backers notified to participate saving his office the time and resources). I will be talking to him next week and see what it would cost to get the ball rolling. So how the outcome is resolved is dependent on the liquidity of the company. I will keep you all informed as other avenues are explored "

That wasn't from Rick, was it?

 Alpharius wrote:
That wasn't from Rick, was it?

No, it was from "tv2112".

Rick seems to have perked up again in the KS comments (Hi Rick!), but no sign of the Legal Tsunami(tm) just yet.

HG only holds the rights to distribute in the US(and this is debatable), the main rights still belong overseas.

 Forar wrote:
Rick seems to have perked up again in the KS comments (Hi Rick!), but no sign of the Legal Tsunami(tm) just yet.

no I perked up because it annoys me how people say you can only do things a certain way when it is just not so, PB did not split the parts because it was only way to do detail, they split the parts because they were cheap.

Ok on the fb page is Alundra Dalamiq a real person or a dummy account? The tone of the replies reminds me of Wayne, although it could just as easily be nimmy.

evilsmurf wrote:
Ok on the fb page is Alundra Dalamiq a real person or a dummy account? The tone of the replies reminds me of Wayne, although it could just as easily be nimmy.

Given the minimal information and the tone they're taking, I'm guessing it might be the same person as "Kevin". They're not looking to do anything but stir up the pot against a group of people who are either banned from commenting back or still permitted to post but likely aware that they could be next on the block (for those that remotely give a gak about being able to post there, obviously).

Could just be a gak stirrer, like that Russell guy that used to come around.

I saw a long dead thread for another project pop up and figured I'd post a link here. Sedition Wars was the first kickstarter that familiarized me with the business model and tempted me to pledge whereas Robotech Tactics was the first kickstarter that made me click the pledge button. I've pretty much seen them following the same general path (lots of promise, stretch goal bloat, bonkers final funding compared to the original goal, bad choices regarding minis manufacturing, blame game shuffling between partners, poor support post launch, minis being worked on but never released, etc). After languishing for several years, it looks like Sedition War's plug is finally being pulled:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600/509493.page

Since Robotech was funded roughly one year later, I expect the same to happen to Robotech in 2017 if not sooner. Unlike Kevin Siembieda, I didn't find Mike McVey's comments/updates to be obnoxious, deceitful, and insulting so the downward spiral may hit the bottom even sooner for this project.

Considering all the new and vitriolic voices that began posting after the most recent update(RRT of course) I'm pretty sure the scales have tipped against PB. It's a waiting game now to see if the FTC listens to our reports and if the MI AG cares enough. Considering their economic situation it may be that they'll let PB get away with it in order to not lose revenue from PB's taxes.

My state won't do anything and we're in much better shape than MI..

There's only been a few backers maybe less than ten who have filed with the FTC or AG. There's me, Asterios, Talizvar and maybe one more. I still need to file with the AG. If more backers filed then something might happen. Until then...

evilsmurf wrote:
Ok on the fb page is Alundra Dalamiq a real person or a dummy account? The tone of the replies reminds me of Wayne, although it could just as easily be nimmy.

Ding! We have a winner!

darkminstrel wrote:
Considering all the new and vitriolic voices that began posting after the most recent update(RRT of course) I'm pretty sure the scales have tipped against PB. It's a waiting game now to see if the FTC listens to our reports and if the MI AG cares enough. Considering their economic situation it may be that they'll let PB get away with it in order to not lose revenue from PB's taxes.

My state won't do anything and we're in much better shape than MI..

The silent majority will except in extreme circumstances stay silent in regards to directly commenting about the KS on the KS, the Palladium facebook page, or the megaversal forums. They'll instead likely speak through (lack of) participation at community events like tournaments and (absent) retail sales.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
There's only been a few backers maybe less than ten who have filed with the FTC or AG. There's me, Asterios, Talizvar and maybe one more. I still need to file with the AG. If more backers filed then something might happen. Until then...

You can add me to the list. I also think it's been more, maybe not breaking the 20 person mark but I think 10 is too conservative.

I'm on the list with BBB, MI AG, and FTC filings.

That's five so far. Six with Marek.

I've managed to find an unexpected day off. So, if someone wants to toss me their template for complaints for the three agencies, I'll stop tossing feces from the sidelines and get mine submitted today.

We can't assume that the five or ten people who have spoken up here or in comments are the only ones who have done so, especially with people posting links to the agencies in question on FB and KS and who knows where else for weeks (months?)

Of course I'm not trying to allude to some potential avalanche of others, nor do I think we'll a massive uprising anytime soon, but noting we simply cannot know the entirety of the numbers who have reported in to each. Even when they're listed (like th BBB seems to have done inconsistently at times?), who knows how many others might have fallen short of some internal requirements or actually been resolved or whatever.

We shouldn't oversell our perceived 'support', but I sincerely doubt only 5 or 6 people have filed after all these weeks. Months.

Years.

Forar, I believe the correct term is "Tsunami", not "Avalanche".

The "Tsunami" has passed, and it appears to have been little more than the ripple a pebble makes when dropped into the ocean.

So, we now have to pin our hopes on the next big thing - The Potential (sort of) Spontaneous Legal Avalanche!

Surely we can pin ours hopes to Palladium doing the right thing and delivering what they sold people in a timely manner?
There's no way Kevin could be posting a bold faced lie every update, right Jeffar?
Because, there's no excuses this time is there? He can't say oh, I just get carried away because I care so much, or get over excited, when he has publicly said that anything other than Palladium absolutely delivering wave 2 is just lies spread by people trying to take down Palladium.
So, we are absolutely getting everything we payed for, right Jeffar?
Because the only alternative is that Kevin is quite deliberately doing everything he's always been accused of doing for years, but has always been defended against as it couldn't be proven as anything but his word against someone else's.
We have to take him at his word because, at this stage, anything else is a deliberate fraud, which he would not do. Right Jeffar?

You guys are too negative. I don't care what you think but I'll be celebrating the huge milestone we're reaching tomorrow... the 1,000th day after funding! Yes, that's right! For a project that was supposed to go into production in its entirety in 40 days, we'll be at 1,000!!! with no production in sight for half the rewards! Surely being 2,500% late (and, no, I didn't misplace a decimal point!) deserves some sort of mention in the annals of super awesome projects?

Absolutely, we should totally set a date to celebrate that milestone, then completely miss it!

Joyboozer, as I am not an employee of Palladium, I'm not qualified to give any sort of answer that is worth more than my own opinion. Those are the questions that need to be answered by Kevin/Wayne/ Chuck.

My opinion is that they still intend to get it out, they just haven't worked out the path from where they are to where they need to be yet and are keeping quiet until they have it.

Jefffar wrote:
Joyboozer, as I am not an employee of Palladium, I'm not qualified to give any sort of answer that is worth more than my own opinion. Those are the questions that need to be answered by Kevin/Wayne/ Chuck.

My opinion is that they still intend to get it out, they just haven't worked out the path from where they are to where they need to be yet and are keeping quiet until they have it.

But...they are being answered by Kevin. The answer is that we're totally getting everything, Wave Two is totally their main focus, and that all this effort is going to result in better models at a reduced part count.

So, why would any questions be "Those are the questions that need to be answered by Kevin/Wayne/ Chuck"? Certainly you're not starting to doubt their previous answers.

Which might have held a little water if that was remotely what they've said to us, with transparency and an effort to communicate clearly where they are and how things are progressing.

But their defense for an entire calendar year has been "we're trimming the parts count!" and "we're working on it but we can't tell you how because reasons".

It took them half a year in 2014 to go from renders to prototypes to molds to test sprues to production in earnest. We saw it happen, they shared the process with us, and then clamped shut around March of 2015, right after promising more info to be forthcoming. And that update was reasonably well received! There were people who were critical of the 'stubby Lancer' and some of the details on the Ghost, but overall the response was pretty good, especially contrasted over... more controversial periods of the project.

And yet when I've spoken to PB, it's been cited that they allegedly received some highly nasty feedback through other channels (which may be true, but I don't buy there being a massive outcry in private channels when we've already seen that the KS community will very openly speak their minds on Comments and Update Comments).

They've had over 3 years to get to this point (overall), and over 1.5 to get from Wave 1 completing design to get to where we are now with no end in sight.

I get that you're just a guy expressing his opinion, and you're fully welcome to share it. Hell, I appreciate it. But as I tried to express to Chuck when I've talked to him (and I feel he heard me clearly), to the backers, if they allegedly spend hundreds of hours working each month on something but have nothing to show for it, it appears no different (from the outside) than them doing nothing. Nature abhors a vacuum, and similarly backers abhor silence when they've given hundreds of dollars apiece and received maybe 1/2-2/3 of what they're owed.

It's kind of the battle that has been waged for years (*sigh*), and I'm not one to 'purity test' people and expect them to have the exact same opinion, the exact same breaking point, but a view like you've expressed requires giving them some measure of benefit of the doubt, and I know you're not alone in doing so.

But for those that aren't (like many of the regulars here), hopefully we can all see why that wouldn't carry much weight.

The last time I talked to Chuck, he remained optimistic about things proceeding this year, that he didn't foresee it sliding further, but that always has caveats. Unfortunately, we're at a point where even issues legitimately beyond their control will garner ire, because they haven't been forthcoming with anything but excuses, delays, and obfuscation.

Hell, we've even seen it with the "spring/summer" commentary (my own snark noting that "summer" ends in late September, officially) and the minor "what the feth?" when they commented on RRT being a priority for "2016/2017"; one COULD give them benefit of the doubt and believe they might intend to deliver Wave 2 in 2016 and proceed to other products in the following year(s), but they don't get that kind of faith when using vague terms and insinuations.

I've been saying for years (*sigh*), Show, Don't Tell.

They keep Telling us everything is okay, but until they Show us some measure of progress, I think they're only going to keep making things worse for themselves. You don't build trust with 12 months of silence and obfuscation, and if they sincerely want to even begin to Restart The Conversation, they need to begin with something of substance.

"We're totes working on stuff!" isn't substance, and 12 months of it hasn't sweetened things.

And I'm sure you know all this, you've heard it before, but I find it somewhat cathartic to lay out just how obnoxiously long this running gag has been going on.

Like intentionally attacking a straw man without intending to attack any particular poster or their statements; it's a jumping off point for why we are where we are that kind of rattles around in my head from time to time.

 Forar wrote:
The last time I talked to Chuck, he remained optimistic about things proceeding this year, that he didn't foresee it sliding further, but that always has caveats.

Just as a side note to casual thread readers, Alex was also optimistic about things proceeding well that year when I made my one and only phone call to Palladium a week or two after the Great Communications Restart of 2015. Of course, nothing proceeded at all from the viewpoint of backers and the restart was more of a CD skip that just picked up right where it left off. I suspect Palladium employees aren't allowed to be anything other than vaguely optimistic with outsiders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jefffar wrote:
Joyboozer, as I am not an employee of Palladium, I'm not qualified to give any sort of answer that is worth more than my own opinion. Those are the questions that need to be answered by Kevin/Wayne/ Chuck.

My opinion is that they still intend to get it out, they just haven't worked out the path from where they are to where they need to be yet and are keeping quiet until they have it.

The above is indistinguishable from not intending to ever get it out yet unwilling to give back the money from a backer's perspective in the absence of any concrete information.

Well, sure. But it's different when it comes straight from Kevin!

*jazz hands*

 Cypher-xv wrote:
That's five so far. Six with Marek.

well according to the BBB they have had 14 complaints filed and closed in the past year (PB's rating is now a "D") so assuming more people would have filed with the MI AG and/or the FTC then the BBB the number could be escalating.

 warboss wrote:
[Just as a side note to casual thread readers, Alex was also optimistic about things proceeding well that year when I made my one and only phone call to Palladium a week or two after the Great Communications Restart of 2015. Of course, nothing proceeded at all from the viewpoint of backers and the restart was more of a CD skip that just picked up right where it left off. I suspect Palladium employees aren't allowed to be anything other than vaguely optimistic with outsiders.

I actually joked with Chuck about how much he had to 'toe the company line', but also commented on respecting that he has bills to pay and joined long after a lot of this gak had been allegedly sorted out.

My first chat with him was back in late Oct or early Nov 2015, I believe, and recently checked in with him recently (a week or so ago, I believe). Granted, being new makes him the 'low man on the totem pole' so I'm not expecting him to go out in a blaze of glory. He also noted that I'm not alone in being a reasonable person with criticism to share. Whatever 'lashing out' some have done, it's not the only feedback they're getting.

I think I might make it a quarterly'ish endeavor, because I highly doubt we'll see much (or any) movement in the next 3 months, and while I don't have high hopes for it making much of a difference, it feels good to occasionally do a little more than just bitch about things on the interwebs.

One of my two friends is getting to a 'Feth Palladium" state where I think he'd be on board with filing, not sure how patient the third gentleman will remain, but as noted the other day, I have begun compiling information.

If I decide to start filing, I'm going to be able to cite and provide considerable context.

Not to insinuate another Legal Tsunami, simply noting... I've found a new aspect to my ongoing hobby here.

 Forar wrote:
I think I might make it a quarterly'ish endeavor, because I highly doubt we'll see much (or any) movement in the next 3 months, and while I don't have high hopes for it making much of a difference, it feels good to occasionally do a little more than just bitch about things on the interwebs.

Keep us updated. I don't expect anything to change from one quarter to the next beyond the anticipated delivery date moving one quarter/year further but it'll at least be something slightly new to complain about.

Not to insinuate another Legal Tsunami, simply noting... I've found a new aspect to my ongoing hobby here.

Putting the complaint template together will probably be easier than assembling a prototype Palladium destroid! *zing* In any case, a template (along with a chronological date of the various lies and broken promises) would be helpful to the community.

Merijeek wrote:
But...they are being answered by Kevin. The answer is that we're totally getting everything, Wave Two is totally their main focus, and that all this effort is going to result in better models at a reduced part count.

So, why would any questions be "Those are the questions that need to be answered by Kevin/Wayne/ Chuck"? Certainly you're not starting to doubt their previous answers.

Someone was asking me to provide an answer, I was just pointing out that I'm not the one who can provide an official answer.

I'll offer my insight and opinion on the official answers being given. I'll give my opinion on what is probably going on. However I do not have any more information than anyone else here does.

 Forar wrote:
I actually joked with Chuck about how much he had to 'toe the company line', but also commented on respecting that he has bills to pay and joined long after a lot of this gak had been allegedly sorted out.

My first chat with him was back in late Oct or early Nov 2015, I believe, and recently checked in with him recently (a week or so ago, I believe). Granted, being new makes him the 'low man on the totem pole' so I'm not expecting him to go out in a blaze of glory.

He's been an employee for years although I don't recall when he was exactly brought on full time. He art freelanced for years, got put on full time maybe two or three years ago IIRC, and then became whatever it is that he is with regards to Robotech last year sometime after the other guy left/got canned/ran away/whatever. He was likely at a minimum a witness to the behind the scenes stupidity that got us to this 1,000 day point (although probably not an active direct participant until the last year or so).

 warboss wrote:
The above is indistinguishable from not intending to ever get it out yet unwilling to give back the money from a backer's perspective in the absence of any concrete information.

I didn't say it wasn't. Everyone is entitled to their own interpretation of the evidence present and their own opinion of it. Just because ours don't completely line up makes either of them invalid.

Jefffar wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
But...they are being answered by Kevin. The answer is that we're totally getting everything, Wave Two is totally their main focus, and that all this effort is going to result in better models at a reduced part count.

So, why would any questions be "Those are the questions that need to be answered by Kevin/Wayne/ Chuck"? Certainly you're not starting to doubt their previous answers.

Someone was asking me to provide an answer, I was just pointing out that I'm not the one who can provide an official answer.

I'll offer my insight and opinion on the official answers being given. I'll give my opinion on what is probably going on. However I do not have any more information than anyone else here does.

As someone who has seen all the exact same information as everyone else, as you've just admitted, please explain why you'd believe that work is being done to deliver Wave Two. Because in the last year there has been, literally, zero evidence other than "Kevin says so".

Merijeek wrote:
As someone who has seen all the exact same information as everyone else, as you've just admitted, please explain why you'd believe that work is being done to deliver Wave Two. Because in the last year there has been, literally, zero evidence other than "Kevin says so".

I didn't say there was work done, I just said I believe they still intend to get the product out.

Though I will point out, your own statement indicates that 100% of the evidence that has come out (Statements from Kevin) is supportive of it being worked on.

Jefffar wrote:
I'll offer my insight and opinion on the official answers being given. I'll give my opinion on what is probably going on. However I do not have any more information than anyone else here does.

In all honesty, have you been tempted to give up your mod/unofficial offical rep position with Palladium? I can't imagine the unpaid job(s) has/have gotten easier in the last 1,000 days. At some point, good intentions at PB should simply stop mattering and don't at all help replace actual skill and effort lacking at Palladium. I know you don't have any actual power to progress the project nor any inside information (as you said above) but do you ever get tired of defending a company that does so much that needs defending? Do you ever feel like it reflects back on you if you keep associated yourself with them? I think I've seen your name pop up as a mod over on the Tau forum so you'd still have that responsibility to keep you busy. I'm not trying to guilt you into quitting but I am genuinely curious if you still think it is worth it. Do you actively play Palladium games?

Jefffar wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
As someone who has seen all the exact same information as everyone else, as you've just admitted, please explain why you'd believe that work is being done to deliver Wave Two. Because in the last year there has been, literally, zero evidence other than "Kevin says so".

I didn't say there was work done, I just said I believe they still intend to get the product out.

Though I will point out, your own statement indicates that 100% of the evidence that has come out (Statements from Kevin) is supportive of it being worked on.

yes and we know how Kevin never lies and/or obfuscates the truth cough*98% done*, cough *coming out in 2015, 2016, 2017 ?

Jefffar wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
As someone who has seen all the exact same information as everyone else, as you've just admitted, please explain why you'd believe that work is being done to deliver Wave Two. Because in the last year there has been, literally, zero evidence other than "Kevin says so".

I didn't say there was work done, I just said I believe they still intend to get the product out.

Though I will point out, your own statement indicates that 100% of the evidence that has come out (Statements from Kevin) is supportive of it being worked on.

I'm not sure which is more hilariously cultish - your belief that "what Kevin says" constitutes "evidence" or you can simultaneously state that "they still intend to get the product out" and "I didn't say there was work done [in the last year]".

This, ladies and gentlemen, is Palladium Books's reasonable face.

 warboss wrote:
[In all honesty, have you been tempted to give up your mod/unofficial offical rep position with Palladium? I can't imagine the unpaid job(s) has/have gotten easier in the last 1,000 days. At some point, good intentions at PB should simply stop mattering and don't at all help replace actual skill and effort lacking at Palladium. I know you don't have any actual power to progress the project nor any inside information (as you said above) but do you ever get tired of defending a company that does so much that needs defending? Do you ever feel like it reflects back on you if you keep associated yourself with them? I think I've seen your name pop up as a mod over on the Tau forum so you'd still have that responsibility to keep you busy. I'm not trying to guilt you into quitting but I am genuinely curious if you still think it is worth it. Do you actively play Palladium games?

What and give up my career? LOL

Just kidding, but I do think that my 20th anniversary as a mod over there comes up next year, so it has been the one thing I've done consistently since the last millennium.

I currently do more Palladium than I do 40k, but then again, the last time I played my Tau, Broadsides had Strength 10 Railguns, so that doesn't necessarily say a lot.

And yeah, there have been moments when I've tired of it, slacked off for a few months, but I always roll back in. At this stage it's more lifestyle choice than anything.

Asterios wrote:
yes and we know how Kevin never lies and/or obfuscates the truth cough*98% done*, cough *coming out in 2015, 2016, 2017 ?

You forgot 2013 and 2014.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Jefffar: Thanks for the honest answer even if I disagree.

Jefffar wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
As someone who has seen all the exact same information as everyone else, as you've just admitted, please explain why you'd believe that work is being done to deliver Wave Two. Because in the last year there has been, literally, zero evidence other than "Kevin says so".

I didn't say there was work done, I just said I believe they still intend to get the product out.

Though I will point out, your own statement indicates that 100% of the evidence that has come out (Statements from Kevin) is supportive of it being worked on.

Statements are not evidence, I'm afraid (unless you're in Rokugan, I guess ^_^), and although absence of evidence is not evidence of absence either, it does not look good. Like, at all.

Merijeek wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
As someone who has seen all the exact same information as everyone else, as you've just admitted, please explain why you'd believe that work is being done to deliver Wave Two. Because in the last year there has been, literally, zero evidence other than "Kevin says so".

I didn't say there was work done, I just said I believe they still intend to get the product out.

Though I will point out, your own statement indicates that 100% of the evidence that has come out (Statements from Kevin) is supportive of it being worked on.

I'm not sure which is more hilariously cultish - your belief that "what Kevin says" constitutes "evidence" or you can simultaneously state that "they still intend to get the product out" and "I didn't say there was work done [in the last year]".

This, ladies and gentlemen, is Palladium Books's reasonable face.

You were the one who created the association of Kevin's statements with evidence, I was just pointing out that you had.

Jefffar wrote:
My opinion is that they still intend to get it out, they just haven't worked out the path from where they are to where they need to be yet and are keeping quiet until they have it.

I fully agree that they intend to get it out. The problem is that they've remained silent, contrary to the spirit of the Kickstarter ToS if not the letter. In order to shut their disgruntled backers up they needed to take a pro-active approach to updating us that was transparent to the point of being invisible.

What they intend is irrelevant without proper action to back it up.

Sining wrote:
What they intend is irrelevant without proper evidence to back it up.

FTFY

From the weekly spam:

UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
I know many of you would love to see some hard details and images right now, and we would love to provide them. However, we are still exploring different possibilities which could mean retooling and changing up the engineering that has already been in progress. We don’t want to show you things that may be changed. When there is a final resolve, and more concrete details, we will most definitely show you images and keep you apprised of progress and plans.

As for our work on other Palladium game titles, we have commitments to our fan base for other Palladium RPG lines, not just Robotech®. We are trying to get a number of products out for everybody. If it seems like the emphasis is on sourcebooks other than Robotech® RPG Tactics™, it is because books are faster to turn around, especially since we print them in the USA. It sure does NOT mean RRT has been tossed to the wayside. Far from it. Things are moving on all fronts. We’ll be keeping you posted as details are nailed down.

Guys! See! They'd LOVE to provide us with some hard details and images for the first time in almost exactly a year.. but can't. Meanwhile also in Palladium Fantasy LandTM, they're still expecting 76+ attendees at the convention going on RIGHT NOW without an actual event listing to let people know about it at the con.

Note: Last year's RRT tournaments were 300 and 1000 points each. Anticipating 76+ participants for the RRT tournament thus far.

Over in Reality LandTM, we have this report from a supposedly multi-year attendee at the actual convention:

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=97&t=150226&p=2905737#p2905737

I don't think I've ever seen a 76+ person event at Strategicon. Especially not in miniatures. Maybe something like Dominion, TTR or one of the CCGs gets 50-ish or so. (I'm interested now, I'll have to ask the boardgame organizers what event has gotten the most people.)

Maybe it's a typo? Like "7 to 6"? Or "7+"?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

There have been a few games of RRT at Strategicon, but they usually had about 4-ish players.

I'm going to Strategicon this weekend. I'll be sure to keep an eye out.

The guys running the miniatures room confirm there is no RRT at Strategicon this time. The guy who normally runs it is in Scotland.

The mystery deepens...

Loch Ness monster confirmed to be running RRT event at Strategicon!

Thanks Warboss. That spam hadn't reached me yet, I was wondering if PB had just missed its deadline for spamming.

Reading between the lines, it feels more and more like PB is changing the manufacturer on the China side. That's... not great in short term, almost certainly a worse thing in long term, but hey, I'd be happy if Wave 2 actually gets done. Anything else beyond the scope of RRT KS is.. wistful thinking, I feel.

EDIT: FWIW, another KS I backed just ran into problems. The Fairytale Games KS just ran into financial issues -- reportedly, product is done but costs overran so he's out of funding to ship.

And he's being open about it and trying to find solutions. I can respect that. Whereas we just get a runaround in RRT.. sheesh.

Just came across this article about Palladium's history; http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3547622

This was the interesting part;

Palladium vs. White Wolf Magazine: In 1990, Kevin Siembieda sent a letter to White Wolf Magazine, accusing it of not covering "small-press" publishers like Palladium. They published two such letters from Kevin, and explained that their coverage was dependent on submissions received, and that they had never received submissions for Palladium material. A Rifts adventure was sent by a writer, however, and White Wolf Magazine agreed to publish it. However, Palladium immediately sent a C&D letter, threatening to sue White Wolf Magazine if the article was published. Confused, White Wolf Magazine pulled the article from their next issue, and avoided attempting to publish any Palladium-based articles thereafter.

A guy who claims to have been a freelancer for PB for a couple of years pops up early in that thread, and shares this;

"Well, one thing I can talk about is the general office atmosphere. I worked from home mostly since the office is about thirty miles away from my house (I'm in NE Detroit), but once a week I'd go in for various things and it was always weird. The office is dead quiet, all the doors are closed, most of the lights are kept off (to save electricity)... it's like a tomb in there. Also, Kevin has no personal boundaries, wants everyone to be BFFs, and will tell you the most intimate details of his personal life at a moment's notice. The man has no filter. It's a pretty strange, inappropriate, and toxic environment."

Followed by this exchange;

"Q: Any idea what the editing process is like? Palladium Books seems to have a number of editors noted on most books, but that doesn't seem to do much for the rough quality of some material. I'm curious as to what sort of things get redlined.

A: Yeah, the "editing" is a joke. If Kevin writes it, Alex and Julius (both of whom are incredible sperglords and total yes-men) "edit" it, all the while telling Kevin that it's awesome and the best thing they've ever read. If someone else writes it, then Kevin re-writes it, gives it to Alex and Julius who then "edit" the manuscript, all the while telling Kevin that it's awesome and the best thing they've ever read and only he could have fixed the obviously deeply flawed original manuscript."

HA.

Edit: I'd paste more, but I'm still on the first page and he has a lot to say. It's fairly interesting reading, and frankly funny (in that it fits our preconceived notions and seems to corroborate other tales of woe behind the scenes like the Bill Coffin thread).

Seems worth a read, at least thus far.

Sining wrote:
What they intend is irrelevant without proper action to back it up.

Ah, but when it's Reality vs. What Kevin Says, there's only one True Answer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forar - Where is this thread, and what's a 'sperglord'.

Evilsmurf posted it right above my post.

And 'sperglord' is a pejorative towards people with Aspergers (or an insinuation that a person's behaviour is similar to the stereotypes associated with extreme forms of that condition).

I anxiously await the addition of the Palladium vs Kickstarter Backers entry to the original post.

edit: I kept wondering why the mods there don't ban the idiot who keeps spamming the elderly woman photos every time he posts but it's apparently some sort of adbot they've got on the forum. I guess there's a first time for everything...

Thanks, some things are easy to miss on a phone.

I'm also curious as to whether Jeffar thinks that the were 76+ (not just up to 76, but 76+) people at the tournament.

Same level of evidence as Wave Two after all...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hooboy, that thread is gold, Jerry! Gold!

Personally, my favourite race is the Harlowes. If you haven't read up on them yet everyone, they're magically created bird-women. They grow to look like a 21 year old woman "with exaggerated female characteristics" within two to four weeks of their birth. Why do they grow so quickly? Well, their demon masters needed the new children to breed really quickly after the old ones were used up. A Harlowe can only give birth once, you see.

In other words, there's a race of bird-women who exist only as pedophilia bait and as utterly disposable surprise sex once and throw away objects by their demon masters. What the gently caress dude? That's incredibly hosed up, even by RPG standards. Let me guess, they become 21 so quickly because you think women over 21 in real life are completely used up and horrible. gently caress off, you gross piece of poo poo.

Kind of wonder who the woman is that is named "Harlow" in real life.

The prize was $100 worth of Palladium merch and a mention in one of the early Rifters, where Kevin mangled my name.

Only half of it ever ended up getting to me, though. I ended up getting the Heroes Unlimited 2E main book out of it, and one other thing, but the rest of what I asked for never arrived. I dunno; maybe Kevin decided to deduct postage out of the hundred bucks.

(Dear mods, I won't cross post again, so please don't hurt me - I just thought it was extremely funny, even if way off topic)

Id never seen a forum before where you have to pay to join. Outside of porn ones that is.

I think Something Awful has always had that. I think it's partially to offset costs (no idea what their ad revenue is like), but mostly to make sure people have 'skin in the game'. Their forums are old, and have always attracted a... unique sort of individual (hence their adorable auto-changes for profanity), so having people cough up a little cash was an extra incentive not to get out of hand enough to be banned, especially multiple times.

But I'm not a member, so that's mostly from my recollection of years long past when I used to swing by there for some articles and the occasional thread I'd read.

The 76+ always struck me as a kind of out of nowhere figure . . . I have no idea what it was based on.

Jefffar wrote:
The 76+ always struck me as a kind of out of nowhere figure . . . I have no idea what it was based on.

A d100 roll; Kevin probably has a random tournament table from 1984 somewhere around the office. A more time intensive option but still possible is that he has converted one of the old Rpg organization point buy systems from Heroes Unlimited to generate fictional tournament stats on the fly.

 warboss wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
The 76+ always struck me as a kind of out of nowhere figure . . . I have no idea what it was based on.

A d100 roll; Kevin probably has a random tournament table from 1984 somewhere around the office. A more time intensive option but still possible is that he has converted one of the old Rpg organization point buy systems from Heroes Unlimited to generate fictional tournament stats on the fly.

No, he forgot to close the loops on the 7 and 6. You see, it was supposed to be 98%.

Badda bing.

Back to lurking...

The mods must be asleep over at their fb page. Theres now a lot of complaints on there.

 Forar wrote:
A guy who claims to have been a freelancer for PB for a couple of years pops up early in that thread, .

THAT would be Jason Marker, Author of the Macross and Masters Saga source books for the RT RPG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

evilsmurf wrote:
The mods must be asleep over at their fb page. Theres now a lot of complaints on there.

And poor "Alundra" *cough*Akashic Soldier*cough* is afraid 75+ Palladium fans are going to be upset when they arrive and there is no record of any event or even representation of Palladium is there at Strategicon.

I would be shocked if there 75+ fans of Palladium in the same STATE as Strategicon at this point

jaymz wrote:

 Forar wrote:
A guy who claims to have been a freelancer for PB for a couple of years pops up early in that thread, .

THAT would be Jason Marker, Author of the Macross and Masters Saga source books for the RT RPG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

evilsmurf wrote:
The mods must be asleep over at their fb page. Theres now a lot of complaints on there.

And poor "Alundra" *cough*Akashic Soldier*cough* is afraid 75+ Palladium fans are going to be upset when they arrive and there is no record of any event or even representation of Palladium is there at Strategicon.

I would be shocked if there 75+ fans of Palladium in the same STATE as Strategicon at this point

It's Jeff, not Akashic.

^^^ what makes you think that?

Jeff? The guy they fired?

 Mike1975 wrote:
^^^ what makes you think that?

He flaunted the fact he was ignoring FB rules when he made the profile to respond on PB's FB page so I reported him. One of the feedbacks I got back said it was The Deific NMI's profile that I had reported. Even if it's not him, I high doubt it's Akashik Soldier. I currently game with his old group and the last any of us heard he quit both FB and RPGs for awhile now.

Jeff doesnt write that well but the style very much fits Akashic's writing style and attitude towards others when compared to the plethora of postd on the fotm.

Still around, just lurking.
Got more RRT models assembled... more blast weapon units... pray for me.
Got nothing nice to say about the recent "update".

Let's look at the big board!

Days since Wayne said he'd give us a full breakdown on the status of all the pieces: **221**
Days since the last substantial Wave 2 info: 352
Days since the campaign ended: 1,001!

Days until the end of "Summer" 2016: 211
Days until Black Friday 2016: 286
Days until the end of 2016: 322

Seems I had the 'days until the end of 2016' off by like two weeks. Not sure how that happened, but it has been corrected. Used a date calculator to tweak a few as well, probably minor 'drift' based on differing hours when I compared the last time I'd posted it and how KS time stamps comments.

Added a Black Friday countdown, because if they're going to miss Gencon (and unless they're exponentially further than what we've seen, they're going to miss Gencon, as it's only 173 days away), then presumably much like Wave One, the main thing they'll care about will be having product for retail in November.

10.5 months until the end of the year, nearly a full year since they last showed us anything of substance, and I don't have any faith they'll deliver wave two at all.

But don't worry guys, they're totally working hard on it behind the scenes!

 Desmodus wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
^^^ what makes you think that?

He flaunted the fact he was ignoring FB rules when he made the profile to respond on PB's FB page so I reported him. One of the feedbacks I got back said it was The Deific NMI's profile that I had reported. Even if it's not him, I high doubt it's Akashik Soldier. I currently game with his old group and the last any of us heard he quit both FB and RPGs for awhile now.

Really? So hes no longer submitting that rifts manuscript he was working on that was going to be the best sourcebook ever?
What led him to desert Palladium?

And for anyone who doesnt know Jeff Ruiz is NMI's real name, not the other Jeff.

Yeah, that's something I knew, but apparently forgot at some point.

If someone had said "Jeff Ruiz" it would have kicked in, but "Jeff" just triggers that one guy who joined and left.

How stupid would they have to be to let NMI post like that?

Facebook is outside Kevin's bubble.

Who cares about what happens there?

evilsmurf wrote:

 Desmodus wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
^^^ what makes you think that?

He flaunted the fact he was ignoring FB rules when he made the profile to respond on PB's FB page so I reported him. One of the feedbacks I got back said it was The Deific NMI's profile that I had reported. Even if it's not him, I high doubt it's Akashik Soldier. I currently game with his old group and the last any of us heard he quit both FB and RPGs for awhile now.

Really? So hes no longer submitting that rifts manuscript he was working on that was going to be the best sourcebook ever?
What led him to desert Palladium?

And for anyone who doesnt know Jeff Ruiz is NMI's real name, not the other Jeff.

AFAIK he's not. As for why he left, from what I've been able to gather it was a combination of personal stuff and non-stop trolling.

Ah, screw it - Kevin's last update pulled me back into watching this trainwreck again.

To add to Forar's calendar, let me add this tidbit:

Here in the states, we will have elected and inaugurated a new president, a new house and a 1/3 of congress (as well as a new Supreme Court Justice) before we're likely to see movement on Wave 2 (though truthfully, at this point, I'm pretty firmly entrenched in the idea Wave 2 will never happen). And we'll still be stuck with Kevin...

Reminds me of this; The Duke Nukem Forever List (scroll down about half way to see the actual list)

It'd be funny to look between May 20th 2013 and now, and see just how much has changed in the last (nearly) 3 years.

"Since RRT Funded..."

 n815e wrote:
How stupid would they have to be to let NMI post like that?

Ahahahahahaha. Sorry but let me share another tidbit.

Some time ago, I forget who, but someone organized an online petition to get nimmy fired for being a fascist dictator on the pb forums. It got a lot of support and then backfired spectacularly as Kevin felt all that anger at nimmy must have meant he was doing a really good job and threw his full support behind him. This was at the same time that hippiemama and her husband (both long long time fans of palladium and up to this point were good friends with kevin) had taken out a restraining order against nimmy for online stalking.

interestingly enough I sent an email, well written and polite as to how NMI was really hurting PB and was told I don't know what I'm talking about.

That was the sum total of their reply?

evilsmurf wrote:

 n815e wrote:
How stupid would they have to be to let NMI post like that?

Ahahahahahaha. Sorry but let me share another tidbit.

Some time ago, I forget who, but someone organized an online petition to get nimmy fired for being a fascist dictator on the pb forums. It got a lot of support and then backfired spectacularly as Kevin felt all that anger at nimmy must have meant he was doing a really good job and threw his full support behind him. This was at the same time that hippiemama and her husband (both long long time fans of palladium and up to this point were good friends with kevin) had taken out a restraining order against nimmy for online stalking.

It's one thing for him to keep a tight rein on the PB forums (however popular or not that may be).
It's another thing for him to anonymously post on PB's FB page to agitate backers.

Given PB's already poor reputation for handling communication, to have one of their representatives (volunteer or not, he represents the company) troll their customers is the dumbest thing they could possibly be doing. If it is true.

I sent them a note telling them that it was unwise to delete criticism while also allowing someone to rile up the backers. It was never responded to.

What

a

Surprise!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, I am thinking of getting a new T-Shirt, and this seems to be an appropriate time to get a custom one made.

Y'know what I mean, something along the lines of

"I backed Palladium Books' Robotech RRT Kickstarter, and all I got was a lousy $5 decal sheet!"

sort of thing. Shame I am not in the states where I could wear it to an event they had games running at, but apparently that's no guarantee that they'd be there anyway, so maybe I should get a back print on that too.

"Excrement Occura" springs to mind.

 Conrad Turner wrote:

Y'know what I mean, something along the lines of

"I backed Palladium Books' Robotech RRT Kickstarter, and all I got was a lousy $5 decal sheet!"

sort of thing. Shame I am not in the states where I could wear it to an event they had games running at, but apparently that's no guarantee that they'd be there anyway, so maybe I should get a back print on that too.

Why not "And even that was late!"?

 n815e wrote:
How stupid would they have to be to let NMI post like that?

Am I the only one who thinks the answer to this is "probably a lot less stupid than they've already shown themselves to be in the fulfillment of this project"? Especially if they said Mike had no idea what he was talking about with this "Intertubewebs" thing...

 Conrad Turner wrote:
What

a

Surprise!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, I am thinking of getting a new T-Shirt, and this seems to be an appropriate time to get a custom one made.

Y'know what I mean, something along the lines of

"I backed Palladium Books' Robotech RRT Kickstarter, and all I got was a lousy $5 decal sheet!"

sort of thing. Shame I am not in the states where I could wear it to an event they had games running at, but apparently that's no guarantee that they'd be there anyway, so maybe I should get a back print on that too.

"Excrement Occura" springs to mind.

yes can see it now, troves of backers at GenCon with T-Shirts saying "Palladium Books never delivered what was promised" or "Palladium Books destroyer of Backers dreams since 2013"

 Conrad Turner wrote:
Actually, I am thinking of getting a new T-Shirt, and this seems to be an appropriate time to get a custom one made.

Y'know what I mean, something along the lines of

"I backed Palladium Books' Robotech RRT Kickstarter, and all I got was a lousy $5 decal sheet!"

sort of thing. Shame I am not in the states where I could wear it to an event they had games running at, but apparently that's no guarantee that they'd be there anyway, so maybe I should get a back print on that too.

"Excrement Occura" springs to mind.

Oooh, TShirts! I considered getting one made for GenCon 2014, that was in the same shade as PB's shirts (sort of a medium blue), but running it through a sewing machine using a zigzag stitch with yellow thread, over every seam, and adding a couple of additional ones (specifically straight up the middle of the front and back), with text that read "Only way it could be done - Wayne Burke, Palladium Games" (or whatever the quote was, it was a long time ago) on the front. But that fell through because of timing. I still have the shirt I bought to do it to.

Why give Palladium free advertising?

I just tell everyone the company went out of business. Its not like they produce any content to counter that statement.

Are you suggesting a dozen people with "RIP Kevin Simbieda" T-shirts would be hilarious?

ok so I went thru all 12 pages of that thread with the former writer commenting....and collected all the relevant posts.

he was asked about the editing process at palladium. His response:

Yeah, the "editing" is a joke. If Kevin writes it, Alex and Julius (both of whom are incredible sperglords and total yes-men) "edit" it, all the while telling Kevin that it's awesome and the best thing they've ever read. If someone else writes it, then Kevin re-writes it, gives it to Alex and Julius who then "edit" the manuscript, all the while telling Kevin that it's awesome and the best thing they've ever read and only he could have fixed the obviously deeply flawed original manuscript.
This is, as you can imagine, a total joke. I one time went through a manuscript after Alex and caught a ton of super basic spelling and grammar mistakes, not to mention a couple of structural problems with the manuscript. This is after it'd gone through two sets of eyes and about a month on various desks. I brought this up to Himself and his answer was, Well, you have to remember, he's not a professional editor... He's been an Editor for twenty goddamned years! For money! That's the loving definition of a professional!
Anyway, there's also zero editorial guidance. There's no styleguide (just read any of our books and do it that way!), Everything seemed, to me at least, to be a guessing game as to what Kevin wanted, and the sum total of his editorial direction usually amounts to little more than, That's a great idea! Just write it!. Kevin doesn't believe that writers can edit/re-write their own work, nor can they follow directions. He told me that to my face. I didn't get a single re-write or piece of editorial direction until after I got laid off and started working for Fantasy Flight in '09.


when asked about the environment his answer:

Well, one thing I can talk about is the general office atmosphere. I worked from home mostly since the office is about thirty miles away from my house (I'm in NE Detroit), but once a week I'd go in for various things and it was always weird. The office is dead quiet, all the doors are closed, most of the lights are kept off (to save electricity)... it's like a tomb in there. Also, Kevin has no personal boundaries, wants everyone to be BFFs, and will tell you the most intimate details of his personal life at a moment's notice. The man has no filter. It's a pretty strange, inappropriate, and toxic environment.


he spoke of working on a rifter and having 3 dbess in it:

I've got three d-bees in that book. That whole thing was one of the rare collaborative efforts between freelancers. Kevin discouraged us from collaborating.


The he when asked why kevin discouraged collaborating:

Because someone might either actually steal or be accused of stealing some else's idea and there would be lawsuits. Seriously. I was part of a non-sanctioned freelancer incubator way back at the beginning of the 2000s called the Think-Tank. It was me, Jason Richards, Todd Yoho, Carl Gleba, and a bunch of other guys you've probably heard of. We did peer review, helped eachother out, had sounding board forums, it was really cool and a lot of the books that came out in the mid-to-late 00s came directly from that project. Kevin shut us down because he didn't want us collaborating for the above reasons.


commenting n Palladium's grasp of technology...

You guys realize that Kevin's grasp of technology, not just modern technology but any technology, is pretty much informed by comics, movies, and the Discovery Channel, right? When I was there the man didn't know how to attach files to emails. Wayne had to do it for him. I had to drag him out of his office one day to the parking lot to where I'd parked my 30 year old motorcycle so I could show him my battery to prove that no, Kevin, motorcycles don't have 6-volt charging systems and haven't since the 60s. He grudgingly admitted that yes, maybe some modern bikes may have 12-volt systems. This to a guy who restores old bikes as a hobby.
He's like functionally illiterate when it comes to technology. Alex isn't much better, since I think he believes that we have a lot of technology around from those, "Secret Weapons of WWII" books he likes so much.

It's even simpler than "had a picture lying around". It's, "These are the tanks that were in the Sergeant Rock comics I read as a kid. I bet they still use them!"
Other things Kevin had never heard of/couldn't understand: Carbines, logistics, motorcycles other than dirtbikes, harleys, or sport bikes, power/weight ratio, and many, many other things I can't remember off the top of my head. Those dudes are stuck in the late 70s, early 80s which, honestly, is more a "SE Michigan" problem and less a "Palladium Books" problem.


his comments o in regards to savage rifts:

Man, I've been out of the Palladium loop since Kevin laid me off in '09, but I'm glad to see some things never change. I'd heard that Robotech Tactics was a shitshow, but the depths of that poo poo are just stunning. Also, speaking of tremendous shitshows, I know the people involved in Savage Rifts. Hooo boy, that's gonna be a fun one to watch.

Basically it's two successful writers who are used to dealing with people who operate in good faith working with someone constitutionally incapable of working in good faith. I've been staying far away from it, but I don't really expect it to see the light of day, and the guys working on it will surely see the underside of a bus at some point in the project.


and comments in regards to a blam shift update on rrt a while back:

Of course it is. Kevin is the champion blamethrower. Nothing is ever his fault. He is the martyr, the constantly aggrieved, and the nicest guy. How can you tell? He'll tell you all about it!
Also, dude has no personal and professional boundaries. It got to the point where I'd kick him out of my office because he'd come in and want to tell me about his girl troubles. The man is pushing sixty. You're my boss, I don't want to hear about your "girl troubles", especially when you're the goddamned problem.


More about kevins editorial style etc:

It's all true. I was there for two years, and I was officially/unofficially in charge of the Robotech RPG (meaning that it wasn't in an official capacity, Kevin doesn't delegate, but he didn't care about Robotech and I did, so I took it over on my own). There is no editorial feedback, there are no rewrites, there is no guidance. There's no styleguide. Kevin believes that writers can't re-write their own material with editorial guidance. I've been doing this for sixteen goddamned years, and I've worked with a lot of writers. You know what? Writers can rewrite their own work with editorial guidance. That's what being a writer is about.

Also, someone mentioned upthread (in a conversation about poser covers) that he draws from the fanbase as opposed to industry professionals for his artists. True story. You know why? Because industry professionals expect to get paid. You know what Kevin says when a freelancer finally demands that he be paid after two years of excuses or the next step is getting the law involved? "That's not fair. He has a real job. He's not writing for a living, he doesn't need that money."
Let me get a few more beers in me and I can tell you some real good stories.

The big question with Savage Rifts is, basically, will the Savage Worlds guys fight through Kevin's stupidity and finish it (to quickly never touch PB again, ala Ninja Divison) or will they give up half way through, say "feth it", and then get on with thier lives having released nothing?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, a semi-serious question here...what is with Simbieda and lawyers? Does he have incriminating pictures of one, and therefore get all the free lawsuits he can manage? Did one steal his girlfriend in college?

Why is he so lawyer obsessed?

Savage Rifts was supposed to be ready for Christmas, according with Pinnacle's announcement:

https://www.peginc.com/rifts-is-coming-for-savage-worlds/

...no further info available, AFAIK.