Welcome to dakka. There's a previous thread of several hundred pages prior to this one (that was started with the "restart" of the conversation) if you've got some recuperation time and want to see the slow but unstoppable slide into folks despising palladium.

As for the negative posts, I only looked once and saw someone on facebook named Alundra was apparently flame baiting unhappy customers and getting them banned/comments removed when they respond in kind whereas he stays fine and dandy on the page. I only took a quick look but what I saw reminded me of when in years past Akashic would enter a mildly unhappy thread, gak all over it and over the folks posting there, people would respond in half as bad a tone as him, and then the *at best* entire thread would get nuked and *at worst* the other respondents banned while Liam went on his merry way mission accomplished either way.

Standard palladium white knight operating procedure.

Backfired on rpg.net where a few have been banned.

NMI or whomever is moderating the fb page is only hurting PB by allowing that behavior. It makes PB look worse, not better.

 n815e wrote:
NMI or whomever is moderating the fb page is only hurting PB by allowing that behavior. It makes PB look worse, not better.

Seems like Alundra's posts that people are referring to, have been retracted. At least there's no posts by them in the current thread.

Maybe they realized it did make them look worse?

That kind of requires self-awareness....

Morgan Vening wrote:

 n815e wrote:
NMI or whomever is moderating the fb page is only hurting PB by allowing that behavior. It makes PB look worse, not better.

Seems like Alundra's posts that people are referring to, have been retracted. At least there's no posts by them in the current thread.

Maybe they realized it did make them look worse?

Or else they've served their purpose (if any).
I don't agree with all of it, but Disinformation Part 1: How Trolls Control an Internet Forum was certainly of interest to me regarding stuff I've seen in that vein.

Sining wrote:
That kind of requires self-awareness....

True, gawd, so utterly true.

Merijeek wrote:

 Conrad Turner wrote:
And the PBWS is a bit of a surprise.

"UPDATE Rifts® Movie

Recently, I’ve gotten some inquiries about the Rifts® Movie, optioned by the Walt Disney Company for development by Jerry Bruckheimer Films. We have not been informed of any new developments on that front, but that does not mean they aren’t working on it and keeping it under wraps. Fingers crossed. Meanwhile, we are exploring other possibilities for licenses and new market areas for Rifts® and other game lines. Time will tell."

Ah, but don't you see? The default assumption there is "No news on this for years - no reason not to assume that's AWESOME THINGS ARE HAPPENING! BUY A MOUSE PAD BEFORE THEY DOUBLE IN PRICE!"

Amusingly, Dream Pod 9 actually did worse (if possible...) than PB in this same area; the Pod simply quit making - - all - - of their RPG titles for a couple of years (around 2006-2008 IIRC) about a decade ago to focus on playing at being Hollywood moguls.

Ever since a constant theme with the folks in Pod-land has been wondering why the company and associated titles have so little industry exposure, let alone long term popularity amongst gamers, while continuing to depend almost exclusively on word of mouth advertising (because hey, it's free, er, cheap).

_
_

Morgan Vening wrote:

 n815e wrote:
NMI or whomever is moderating the fb page is only hurting PB by allowing that behavior. It makes PB look worse, not better.

Seems like Alundra's posts that people are referring to, have been retracted. At least there's no posts by them in the current thread.

Maybe they realized it did make them look worse?

No, Alundra's posts are still there.

I do not see any under the latest weekly update.

jaymz wrote:
I do not see any under the latest weekly update.

Because it's a new update. The comments are in the ones after it.

Has anyone tried posting in the new update? Did they turn off all comments for it? If so, making them face reality might have had an effect as they might have gotten tired of trying to erase the truth on a daily basis on top of their normal 18 hour work day 6 days a week that produces little to nothing of note.

jaymz wrote:
Ill be sure to hit your booth fanexpo saturday

Awesome! I hope to be there in the morning and probably most of the afternoon, but I've got tickets to see Trevor Noah in Niagara that evening, so I won't be there the entire day, sadly.

Look for a tall guy in an N7 Mass Effect hoodie at the booth, and you'll have found me!

Edit: there's a pile of comments on the Newsletter link now, just took time. And boy, a bunch of them are pretty negative, I foresee another sweep coming.

Also also, if someone can't see Alundra's comments at all, it's possible they have blocked you personally. When you block someone on FB (or they block you), neither of you can see the other's comments. That said, it seems they haven't commented on this link yet, their last one I see was from the Feb 12th link. But I'm sure a real gem will drop on the new one soon enough.

Ruh, roh. One of the MA ambassadors spoke against palladium on their forums;
http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=97&t=150447

"So, I was surprised to hear that there was going to be a tournament in my backyard, without any involvement from myself, but I figured that PB knew I was having surgery on the 16th, and knew I could not attend OrcCon that weekend.
I did reach out to a couple of friends that went, and just read their email- not one RRT event, not one game seen.
When I am well enough to talk again I will try to find out what happened, but this was inexcusable to me.

As far as MA's and organized play, the biggest stumbling block was getting approval- I turned it over to Jake, another coordinator, a while back."

It will be interesting to see the reaction to that.


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Btw the "Total members 11873" for PB forums is total bs because even if you leave or are banned nimmy wont allow your account to be deleted. That way they can artificially keep the member number high. If youre banned nimmy scrambles your password somehow so you cant log back in.

My thought somebody registered with PB for 76 players to attain prize support, didn't show for event, pockets prize support for personal win.

However what they fail to realize is that the joke is on them, nobody will ever want to play Robotech so any prize support minis are in fact useless.

 stanman wrote:
My thought somebody registered with PB for 76 players to attain prize support, didn't show for event, pockets prize support for personal win.

However what they fail to realize is that the joke is on them, nobody will ever want to play Robotech so any prize support minis are in fact useless.

That is not a bad theory at all.

It makes PB look a little less inept/malicious/deceptive.

OK, what sort of "prize support" are we talking about for an event with 76+ participants?

A "free" starter box of RRT?

Hoo boy!

 FacelessMage wrote:

 stanman wrote:
My thought somebody registered with PB for 76 players to attain prize support, didn't show for event, pockets prize support for personal win.

However what they fail to realize is that the joke is on them, nobody will ever want to play Robotech so any prize support minis are in fact useless.

That is not a bad theory at all.

It makes PB look a little less inept/malicious/deceptive.

Well... the latter two out of the three, if that's the case. If they provided prize support for 76+ player tournament, without doing even the most cursory checks, then inept still applies. A small tournament, I could MAYBE see slipping under the radar. As I and others have done, it did not take much effort to find zero evidence that the tournament was happening. And claiming it'd be twice as big as both Adepticon and POH combined? An investigation that took longer than Kevin adding the entry to the PBWU would have shown something fishy.

But if PB got taken by someone promising something well in excess of what they were capable, and managed to screw Palladium out of their hard earned resources and left Kevin feeling like he'd been ripped off? Well irony is payback's twin sister. She's a bitch too.

I see in the latest PBWU, they're still looking for someone, anyone, to run an RRT tournament at GenCon. And still incorrectly giving a timeframe. " In order to get into the Gen Con Games Pre-Registration and the onsite program book, Gen Con needs ALL game information by Mid-February.". It's March 14th according to GenCon. So, another 3 weeks of begging using the standard "carnival barker" approach that they do for their sales. Get it now! Only available for a limited time! Limited being subjective!

Im sure one of their volunteers or staff before complained about how hard it was to get any prizes out of Kevin. And knowing what Kevin is like Im more inclined to believe that he made the whole thing up in anticipation of something he was going to do, then never got around to it.

Much like when he plans what books he'll release each year. 'Absolutely Ill get Mechanoids out this year'.

The scary thing about the thought process a person like Kevin has is:
He is wondering why the person holding the event is not putting up the prizes.
A person should be pleased to provide these items to gain favor with Kevin.
Sometimes people just have no clue, does Kevin have to do everything himself?
When PB has to operate an office with all the lights off to save power, these fans have no idea what resources they are asking of him.
He has long days being bugged by people asking for guidance and it gets longer having to sort out what people did wrong, just handle it!

You know this is the actual experience I have had with fun people like this?
It is all about him.
Short term only.
Supporting his product is NOT the same as supporting him.

But this is the "conjecture" negativity that sour's many forum reader's experiences.
BUT it really is very confusing when dealing with a narcissist: it borders on self destructive in it's self interest.
Until all that is understood, it continues to be a surreal experience.

 stanman wrote:
My thought somebody registered with PB for 76 players to attain prize support, didn't show for event, pockets prize support for personal win.

However what they fail to realize is that the joke is on them, nobody will ever want to play Robotech so any prize support minis are in fact useless.

Funny thing is I was talking about this very same thing happening to someone the other day.

This popped up on my youtube feed this weekend along with the part II. The RPG and tactics stuff is about 5 minutes in.




Good news! Tommy Yune says Palladium is communicating alot better with customers! It's too bad that no one told us backers; that meaningful communication must has some sort of stealth field engaged for the past year. I'm not sure if that is just spin to present this POS situation in some fake better light or, less likely, he is somehow completely oblivious of the real state of this project. I was a bit disappointed that no one took his to task about that comment in the Q&A but it seemed like the few folks there (lots of empty seats/rows in the videos) were only interested in the live action movie. The presentation in the second video is about half devoted to talking about deceased folks that worked on the franchicise; the franchise is old and stale enough that the obituaries constitute a significant part of the updates.

As long as the check cashed, HG doesn't care.

Watching the video: There's a slide that says "Now shipping!" Boy, does that ever need a bunch of asterisks and caveats attached to it!

 Forar wrote:
Watching the video: There's a slide that says "Now shipping!" Boy, does that ever need a bunch of asterisks and caveats attached to it!

In their "defense", that was the last time there was any news that actually affected customers. Since then, it's been nothing but smoke and mirrors regarding the rest of the rewards except for one or two long gone instances.

Is HG willfully ignorant, doesn't care or has PB really pulled the wool over their eyes on RRT?

does anybody else feel like the reason the crowd is so very little or very thin is they only allowed those would not say anything negative about HG and their license holders during the interview? that whole session felt rehearsed.

That insinuation sounds... concerning.

Seems kevin wax on and on poetically but can't be bothered to tells us anything.

My reaction went: "Da feth?"

Basically nobody in the license chain is even interested, are they?

evilsmurf wrote:
Im sure one of their volunteers or staff before complained about how hard it was to get any prizes out of Kevin. And knowing what Kevin is like Im more inclined to believe that he made the whole thing up in anticipation of something he was going to do, then never got around to it.

Much like when he plans what books he'll release each year. 'Absolutely Ill get Mechanoids out this year'.

Actually, I am one of the guys that vet the events that get prize support, or "swag", and Kevin is very, very generous in sending out Swag to promote real games.
He may have faults, but supporting people promoting his games are not one of them! I have not had any complaints of not enough swag from anyone that got sent it in the last few years.


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Asterios wrote:
does anybody else feel like the reason the crowd is so very little or very thin is they only allowed those would not say anything negative about HG and their license holders during the interview? that whole session felt rehearsed.

Long Beach Comic Expo is a very small event.
I almost spit out my beverage when he said Kevin "is very self aware of their release schedule".

zyanitevp wrote:

evilsmurf wrote:
Im sure one of their volunteers or staff before complained about how hard it was to get any prizes out of Kevin. And knowing what Kevin is like Im more inclined to believe that he made the whole thing up in anticipation of something he was going to do, then never got around to it.

Much like when he plans what books he'll release each year. 'Absolutely Ill get Mechanoids out this year'.

Actually, I am one of the guys that vet the events that get prize support, or "swag", and Kevin is very, very generous in sending out Swag to promote real games.
He may have faults, but supporting people promoting his games are not one of them! I have not had any complaints of not enough swag from anyone that got sent it in the last few years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:
does anybody else feel like the reason the crowd is so very little or very thin is they only allowed those would not say anything negative about HG and their license holders during the interview? that whole session felt rehearsed.

Long Beach Comic Expo is a very small event.
I almost spit out my beverage when he said Kevin "is very self aware of their release schedule".

Actually that expo has a rather fair showing of all 50 slots being filled, this way all can attend all things in the show, and yet only 3 (was there more?) showed up for Tommy Yune's speech., also why did Kevin mention 76 participants at an even that never took place and no one ever showed up to? did he lie? also why have other MA's and those still in good standing have stated that the lack of prize support is what is hurting the MA program ?

but back to my other question what happened with Orccon ? did he lie to us? or did someone fail to properly vet an event? since that would be you, that would mean one of you are at fault so is it you or Kevin ?

zyanitevp wrote:


Actually, I am one of the guys that vet the events that get prize support, or "swag", and Kevin is very, very generous in sending out Swag to promote real games.
He may have faults, but supporting people promoting his games are not one of them! I have not had any complaints of not enough swag from anyone that got sent it in the last few years.

Well, that leads to an obvious question - are you aware if there was there any prize support/"swag" sent to Stratgicon for the game that did not materialize? I'm trying to get a sense if Kevin thinks the events mentioned are the real deal (and what proof they're thusly going off) or if he's just making a checklist of Cons and "yep, we can say there'll be games there" (which, with listing Coastcon, I am inclined to believe the latter).

I would suspect "someone" told Kevin a "bunch" of people were going to the convention but the numbers may have been conjecture estimating from what he was told.
If what was presented was not completely truthful (to Kevin), it could very well be the result we had of no games and scratching our heads on why the statement was made at all.
I would claim many things of Kevin but a full fabrication/lie without some kernel of truth to it I would not expect (he is too fearful of being caught for that).

 Talizvar wrote:
I would suspect "someone" told Kevin a "bunch" of people were going to the convention but the numbers may have been conjecture estimating from what he was told.
If what was presented was not completely truthful, it could very well be the result we had of no games and scratching our heads on why the statement was made at all.
I would claim many things of Kevin but a full fabrication/lie without some kernel of truth to it I would not expect (he is too fearful of being caught for that).

well that is the thing if we have a large event like that there should be prize support, so that would entail zyanitevp vetting the even to make sure it existed to have prize support sent, so either zyanitevp lied to Kevin or is lying to us, or Kevin lied to us, so i'm curious which is it? and wanted the response from zyanitevp himself.

A) Zzyanitevp said he is *one of* the people who vets prize support.

B) I don't think it's come up here, but he has also said that he was undergoing surgery around that time frame, hence finding out about this after the fact.

C) Welcome to Dakka, zyanitevp. Interesting to see the cross pollination between the forums growing.

 Forar wrote:
A) Zzyanitevp said he is *one of* the people who vets prize support.

B) I don't think it's come up here, but he has also said that he was undergoing surgery around that time frame, hence finding out about this after the fact.

C) Welcome to Dakka, zyanitevp. Interesting to see the cross pollination between the forums growing.

A: yet if the event was happening in his own backyard you would assume he would be the one vetting it?
B: yet someone who knew nothing of what was going on in his own backyard? so odds are Kevin was lying? so that brings up the question of why ? why did Kevin Lie about some big event involving his company in a most public statement?

Apparently you missed the quoted post last page. Let me post it again:

"So, I was surprised to hear that there was going to be a tournament in my backyard, without any involvement from myself, but I figured that PB knew I was having surgery on the 16th, and knew I could not attend OrcCon that weekend.
I did reach out to a couple of friends that went, and just read their email- not one RRT event, not one game seen.
When I am well enough to talk again I will try to find out what happened, but this was inexcusable to me.

As far as MA's and organized play, the biggest stumbling block was getting approval- I turned it over to Jake, another coordinator, a while back."

It seems to me that this whole convention mixup was probably a miscommunication. To me, there are things to nail PB on regarding this project and a convention tournament that didn't materialize is not one of them. It is getting back to the Rick days of attacking them for every little thing, seeing malicious intent where there is only ineptness and losing focus on what matters.

Speaking of Rick, why see a conspiracy for every little thng?
I can't imagine that the Robotech panel at any anime convention has a large attendance.
The demographic for Robotech fans is late thirties to early fifties -- not the target group for anime conventions. It's going to be thin on the ground there to start. Not every fan our age spends lots of time on forums or keeping up with the details of Robotech. You would think that someone would ask them where Shadow Chronicles' sequels are or why they can't be bothered to do anything with the property or why is Kevin not getting wave 2 out. But most of them are unaware or don't care or don't want to be rude.

 Forar wrote:
Apparently you missed the quoted post last page. Let me post it again:

"So, I was surprised to hear that there was going to be a tournament in my backyard, without any involvement from myself, but I figured that PB knew I was having surgery on the 16th, and knew I could not attend OrcCon that weekend.
I did reach out to a couple of friends that went, and just read their email- not one RRT event, not one game seen.
When I am well enough to talk again I will try to find out what happened, but this was inexcusable to me.

As far as MA's and organized play, the biggest stumbling block was getting approval- I turned it over to Jake, another coordinator, a while back."

and I repeat in his statement he stated PB always sent good prize support which goes against anything and everything said and being said by past and current MA's and attendees, furthermore if something involved my job was going on in my backyard I would know about it, so that would indicate it was not happening so one would construe that Kevin made a very public lie about an event involving his product, so it would beg one to wonder why ?

 n815e wrote:
It seems to me that this whole convention mixup was probably a miscommunication. To me, there are things to nail PB on regarding this project and a convention tournament that didn't materialize is not one of them. It is getting back to the Rick days of attacking them for every little thing, seeing malicious intent where there is only ineptness and losing focus on what matters.

Speaking of Rick, why see a conspiracy for every little thng?
I can't imagine that the Robotech panel at any anime convention has a large attendance.
The demographic for Robotech fans is late thirties to early fifties -- not the target group for anime conventions. It's going to be thin on the ground there to start. Not every fan our age spends lots of time on forums or keeping up with the details of Robotech. You would think that someone would ask them where Shadow Chronicles' sequels are or why they can't be bothered to do anything with the property or why is Kevin not getting wave 2 out. But most of them are unaware or don't care or don't want to be rude.

not conspiracy especially when you consider that those who play along get free goodies at end of thing.

Rick, please back down, no reason to be so hostile. Even if prize support was given out, I can't see that as anything more than a positive - it'll go to *someone* who will use it (cuz they ain't reselling it on e-bay )

But I do believe we would all like to know if someone did vet the event to ensure it was being run (some sort of paperwork), or if someone just casually mentioned it Kevin or even if it was some desperation to make it look like the game wasn't dead. I'd also be curious what sort of prize support would have potentially gone out, as I didn't think PB did do prize support, from past talk about MA's having to supply all their own stuff.

For OrcCon/Stratigicon, it looks like someone *planned* to have an event, but because of circumstances it fell through. It'd be interesting to know what proof of life there is behind the others.

If the Coastcon one is for real, I'd like to drop by, maybe even get a game in with someone, as up until that announcement, I wasn't aware anyone else in the state was a backer besides me. At this time, nobody else in my area will even touch it or is interested in it.

 Stormonu wrote:
Rick, please back down, no reason to be so hostile. Even if prize support was given out, I can't see that as anything more than a positive - it'll go to *someone* who will use it (cuz they ain't reselling it on e-bay )

But I do believe we would all like to know if someone did vet the event to ensure it was being run (some sort of paperwork), or if someone just casually mentioned it Kevin or even if it was some desperation to make it look like the game wasn't dead. I'd also be curious what sort of prize support would have potentially gone out, as I didn't think PB did do prize support, from past talk about MA's having to supply all their own stuff.

For OrcCon/Stratigicon, it looks like someone *planned* to have an event, but because of circumstances it fell through. It'd be interesting to know what proof of life there is behind the others.

If the Coastcon one is for real, I'd like to drop by, maybe even get a game in with someone, as up until that announcement, I wasn't aware anyone else in the state was a backer besides me. At this time, nobody else in my area will even touch it or is interested in it.

oh I don't think any prize support was sent out, and don't think any of the MA's or such knew about such an event other then what Kevin wrote, maybe he thought it would attract others to show up and get games started from thin air.

my Point is why did Kevin so Publicly lie about something that could have been verified?

 warboss wrote:
This popped up on my youtube feed this weekend along with the part II. The RPG and tactics stuff is about 5 minutes in.




Good news! Tommy Yune says Palladium is communicating alot better with customers! It's too bad that no one told us backers; that meaningful communication must has some sort of stealth field engaged for the past year. I'm not sure if that is just spin to present this POS situation in some fake better light or, less likely, he is somehow completely oblivious of the real state of this project. I was a bit disappointed that no one took his to task about that comment in the Q&A but it seemed like the few folks there (lots of empty seats/rows in the videos) were only interested in the live action movie. The presentation in the second video is about half devoted to talking about deceased folks that worked on the franchicise; the franchise is old and stale enough that the obituaries constitute a significant part of the updates.

At this point isn't Yune's job the same as Simbieda's - to milk a zombie IP for as long as possible to avoid getting a real job?

I actually find the Con thing quite funny - it seems to be the case of Kevin opening his mouth before doing any fact checking, as seems to be his operating mode. Who wiill he throw under the bus this time for the fiasco I wonder?

 Stormonu wrote:
I actually find the Con thing quite funny - it seems to be the case of Kevin opening his mouth before doing any fact checking, as seems to be his operating mode. Who wiill he throw under the bus this time for the fiasco I wonder?

oh you know hes gonna toss someone under that bus.

I gotta agree with the posts above. Rick, your tin foil hat is on too tight. How would HG discriminate against unhappy fans of Robotech? Facial recognition software looking for scowls? TSA xray machines that measure the volume of your wallet looking for the missing $140-500 spent on undelivered RRPGT rewards? A poster of Kevin Siembieda holding Wave 1 boxes that is actually a trap and if you spit on it or try to burn the effigy then you're excluded? Sorry but the robotech fan base, like the staff assigned to it, is growing old and even dying and nothing concrete that is new and exciting is being added to the IP. I'm disappointed that no one other than a mild joke about delays took HG to task about the (at best) blatant inaccuracies to (at worst) lies being told about the RPG products and spin of Tactics vapor-rewards... but that doesn't mean that there is a conspiracy at the door of the room involving the con organizers since they would control security. It's HG during covering their own asses and the asses of one of their most loyal licensors during a panel Q&A at a small con that they go to because it's local to them, not because it's important like SDCC.

As for Zzyan somehow being a part of the great conspiracy when he has said he wasn't involved and has expressed his disappointment with Palladium both here on an open forum as well as in their own walled garden of bliss, I don't think it's fair for you to lump him into it all. He's an MA and it's likely at times he probably has defended the indefensible (it's probably in their terms and conditions! Lol) but I don't see that at all with the current situation.

 warboss wrote:
I gotta agree with the posts above. Rick, your tin foil hat is on too tight. How would HG discriminate against unhappy fans of Robotech? Facial recognition software looking for scowls? TSA xray machines that measure the volume of your wallet looking for the missing $140-500 spent on undelivered RRPGT rewards? A poster of Kevin Siembieda holding Wave 1 boxes that is actually a trap and if you spit on it or try to burn the effigy then you're excluded? Sorry but the robotech fan base, like the staff assigned to it, is growing old and even dying and nothing concrete that is new and exciting is being added to the IP. I'm disappointed that no one other than a mild joke about delays took HG to task about the (at best) blatant inaccuracies to (at worst) lies being told about the RPG products and spin of Tactics vapor-rewards... but that doesn't mean that there is a conspiracy at the door of the room involving the con organizers since they would control security. It's HG during covering their own asses and the asses of one of their most loyal licensors during a panel Q&A at a small con that they go to because it's local to them, not because it's important like SDCC.

As for Zzyan somehow being a part of the great conspiracy when he has said he wasn't involved and has expressed his disappointment with Palladium both here on an open forum as well as in their own walled garden of bliss, I don't think it's fair for you to lump him into it all. He's an MA and it's likely at times he probably has defended the indefensible (it's probably in their terms and conditions! Lol) but I don't see that at all with the current situation.

oh HG discriminates by giving gifts to those who ask nice questions

never said zzyan was part of the conspiracy was trying to get a higher up MA to agree that Kevin lied.

(fun double post wiped)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
I actually find the Con thing quite funny - it seems to be the case of Kevin opening his mouth before doing any fact checking, as seems to be his operating mode. Who wiill he throw under the bus this time for the fiasco I wonder?

oh you know hes gonna toss someone under that bus.

Well, that or the very idea will get Chuck Cunningham'd.

 Stormonu wrote:
I actually find the Con thing quite funny - it seems to be the case of Kevin opening his mouth before doing any fact checking, as seems to be his operating mode. Who wiill he throw under the bus this time for the fiasco I wonder?

I'd say the severity of the difference between the reality of the situation (ZERO attendees, no preparation/organization for the event this year, was there anything at all last year?) and his fantasy (the BIGGEST EVAR!! robotech tourney and HUUUGE!! 1,000pt tournies last year!) indicates more than just fact checking. It's a complete lack of fact checking side by side with Carnival barker style exaggerations (i.e. step right up, step right up, to see the most stupendous, superlificous, amaaaaaazing game of the century!) that Kevin is known for. I can't see how such a giant rift (pun intended) between reality and fantasy could exist due to just a simple miscommunication as spun on the official forums by a white knight or just a lack of fact checking as you're offering. It's just too much and follows previous missteps too closely.

Merijeek wrote:
(fun double post wiped)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
I actually find the Con thing quite funny - it seems to be the case of Kevin opening his mouth before doing any fact checking, as seems to be his operating mode. Who wiill he throw under the bus this time for the fiasco I wonder?

oh you know hes gonna toss someone under that bus.

Well, that or the very idea will get Chuck Cunningham'd.

are you saying Jeff was Chuck Cunningham'd ?

I will vouch for zyan in regards to his own experience and sincerity so lets cut the guy some slack since he just had some serious surgery. If he says he is unhappy woth this mess and is going to tey and find out what he can then i believe him and will leave it at that.

jaymz wrote:
I will vouch for zyan in regards to his own experience and sincerity so lets cut the guy some slack since he just had some serious surgery. If he says he is unhappy woth this mess and is going to tey and find out what he can then i believe him and will leave it at that.

jaymz nothing against zyan, it was all about getting him to admit Kevin lied and lied spectacularly also Jaymz who do you think Kevin is going to throw under the bus for his lie ?

Merijeek wrote:

Well, that or the very idea will get Chuck Cunningham'd.

Or maybe Dave GamersonGames'ed if Kevin goes with the amnestic disassociative state angle to explain why what he advertised had no basis in what actually was going to happen.

He cant admit something when he knows nothing about the event in question rick. Thats the point.

As for who. Does it matter at this point? Whether he lied or spouted off wantonly about something he had no facts on, the fact is it makes him and the company look spectacularly inept, incompetent, and clueless.

Which for me is excellent to see.

 Talizvar wrote:
I would suspect "someone" told Kevin a "bunch" of people were going to the convention but the numbers may have been conjecture estimating from what he was told.

Well, we do know for a fact that Palladium's allowable margin of error regarding complex things like numbers and dates is over 98%. See RRPGT, almost every RPG book release for decades, and now this convention's reported statistics.

jaymz wrote:
He cant admit something when he knows nothing about the event in question rick. Thats the point.

As for who. Does it matter at this point? Whether he lied or spouted off wantonly about something he had no facts on, the fact is it makes him and the company look spectacularly inept, incompetent, and clueless.

Which for me is excellent to see.

considering the event took place in his own backyard and he knew nothing about it and even stated he was surprised he knew nothing about it, indicates there was no truth in Kevin's words, and considering I highly doubt Kevin will ever give him a response and later down the road Zyan will just turn into another one of those traitorous backstabbing MA's who didn't breath in Kevin's farts long enough to become a true believer in all of Kevin's lies.

and yes it does matter, why Kevin lied at this point about this incident since there is more here then can be said. but later down the line you will look back on this and say I should have seen it coming.

Instead of hinting rick, share with the class or shut the hell up.

jaymz wrote:
Instead of hinting rick, share with the class or shut the hell up.

can't and i'm sure you know why the hell not Jaymz.

No i dont rick because all ypu ever do is hint at this and hint at that with vague reasons of "you can't" if you cant then shut up.

jaymz wrote:
No i dont rick because all ypu ever do is hint at this and hint at that with vague reasons of "you can't" if you cant then shut up.

say what you will suck up. but then again maybe if you listened to Kevin more closely you would have seen a pattern forming, but hard to listen when your head was so far up his rear wasn't it ?

Rick, I've listened to everything you've had to say. Much of it is valid. Much of it is fear mongering. But you've devolved into petty name calling and I would like it if you would shut the frell up or share with the class what you know.

There comes a point where every revolutionary chooses to support the revolution or tries to take leadership. You're yelling too loud to be a mere foot-soldier.

darkminstrel wrote:
Rick, I've listened to everything you've had to say. Much of it is valid. Much of it is fear mongering. But you've devolved into petty name calling and I would like it if you would shut the frell up or share with the class what you know.

There comes a point where every revolutionary chooses to support the revolution or tries to take leadership. You're yelling too loud to be a mere foot-soldier.

oh don't get me wrong i'm in the back seat on this one, or merely an observer and try to steer or point out certain things when and where I can.

darkminstrel wrote:
Rick, I've listened to everything you've had to say. Much of it is valid. Much of it is fear mongering. But you've devolved into petty name calling and I would like it if you would shut the frell up or share with the class what you know.

There comes a point where every revolutionary chooses to support the revolution or tries to take leadership. You're yelling too loud to be a mere foot-soldier.

Supposedly he's limited by whatever lawsuit results he had. If that is so I would really question even talking about RRT on a public forum in any capacity.

 Mike1975 wrote:

darkminstrel wrote:
Rick, I've listened to everything you've had to say. Much of it is valid. Much of it is fear mongering. But you've devolved into petty name calling and I would like it if you would shut the frell up or share with the class what you know.

There comes a point where every revolutionary chooses to support the revolution or tries to take leadership. You're yelling too loud to be a mere foot-soldier.

Supposedly he's limited by whatever lawsuit results he had. If that is so I would really question even talking about RRT on a public forum in any capacity.

Let's not start up that unfounded rumor again in 2016 especially since Rick has been holding up his end of the put up or shut up bargain. Lets leave the imminent and utter legal destruction of Palladium as a thing we shared in prior years just like hope of wave two delivery.

Asterios wrote:
oh don't get me wrong i'm in the back seat on this one, or merely an observer and try to steer or point out certain things when and where I can.

I would say that if you are unwilling or unable to speak clearly it is best to move-on to topics where you can.
The vague hints are irritating to others.
I appreciate how much you had been vocal about this raw deal we have with wave 2 but hints without confirmation are pretty useless to me (or anyone else).
You are acting like the kid who bought someone a gift and just cannot help dropping hints... show some self control.

Heh. I remember some extensive discussion about how obnoxious it was when people would go to PB's offices and get to see things. They were sworn to secrecy on the details, but oooh, they were just bubbling over to talk about not being able to talk about the things they probably shouldn't even be mentioning knowing of or seeing!

... so here we are, Rick. You've become one of 'them'. It was annoying when people did it in support of the splendorous art/titles/models/whatever they saw, and it's annoying now.

I guess this at least indicates that he isn't under an actual NDA or other compelling legal gag order, because have actual MA's and Forum Admin from PB in here (along with WRRD and who knows who else),and it wouldn't shock me if others perused by or were at least kept aware of the chatter.

Because otherwise, it looks an awful lot like tiptoeing towards a line that one isn't supposed to cross (if there were an actionable piece of contract or other litigation backing it up). If that's not there, speak up. If it is, or you just don't feel like sharing with the class, then kindly drop it.

As for 'getting an admission of a lie', for feth's sake, this is getting out of hand. Kindly stop demanding things of people they have said repeatedly they knew nothing about.

Just because it's a reasonable SOP to read between the lines on PB's paper thin reassurances doesn't mean that everything Z or Jeffar or whomever says here needs to get put through an interrogation.

We've been called the most negative thread on Dakka, and isn't not undeserved, but this is getting a bit far out there even for us.

Just chill.

Well, at least we got a couple months of quiet on the Legal Ricknami.

(MOD NOTE - Yes, I'm reusing this post, from earlier today, in a different thread!)

GENERAL IN THREAD WARNING TIME!

There are very few rules here - but we must insist that everyone follow them.

After all, this what everyone agreed to do when they signed up here.

RULE #1 - STAY POLITE.

RULE #2 - STAY ON TOPIC.

IF certain topics or certain users cause you to be unable to follow the rules, do not post!

WARNINGS and SUSPENSIONS are the next steps!

Delete weird quote post

Sorry not sure what happenef
D

Morgan and I were joking about how many pages PB has used on updates and still managed to say nothing of value to the backers, so I got curious.

According to Google Docs, if you include titles and bodies of text (but not signatures), the 17 updates since we last got info nearly a year ago, if copied to said document, occupy 68 pages of space (12 point font, larger for titles and subtitles), consist of 20,994 words (this includes copy/paste like the conventional forces descriptions and giant lists like what is contained in the tiers, but if they're going to fill space with that crap, I'm happy to include it), and consists of 118,214 characters (97,859 characters excluding spaces).

To tell us nothing. Literally, in the year(ish) since we last saw Proof of Life for wave 2.

Perhaps we should we compile this and submit it to the Hugos?

It's definitely a work of fiction!

 Forar wrote:
Morgan and I were joking about how many pages PB has used on updates and still managed to say nothing of value to the backers, so I got curious.

According to Google Docs, if you include titles and bodies of text (but not signatures), the 17 updates since we last got info nearly a year ago, if copied to said document, occupy 68 pages of space (12 point font, larger for titles and subtitles), consist of 20,994 words (this includes copy/paste like the conventional forces descriptions and giant lists like what is contained in the tiers, but if they're going to fill space with that crap, I'm happy to include it), and consists of 118,214 characters (97,859 characters excluding spaces).

To tell us nothing. Literally, in the year(ish) since we last saw Proof of Life for wave 2.

Perhaps we should we compile this and submit it to the Hugos?

It's definitely a work of fiction!

Funny enough, if you get rid of the fluff for Nodal Wars, they wrote more on having zero progress than I've written in less time on an entire new system. SMH

 Mike1975 wrote:

 Forar wrote:
Morgan and I were joking about how many pages PB has used on updates and still managed to say nothing of value to the backers, so I got curious.

According to Google Docs, if you include titles and bodies of text (but not signatures), the 17 updates since we last got info nearly a year ago, if copied to said document, occupy 68 pages of space (12 point font, larger for titles and subtitles), consist of 20,994 words (this includes copy/paste like the conventional forces descriptions and giant lists like what is contained in the tiers, but if they're going to fill space with that crap, I'm happy to include it), and consists of 118,214 characters (97,859 characters excluding spaces).

To tell us nothing. Literally, in the year(ish) since we last saw Proof of Life for wave 2.

Perhaps we should we compile this and submit it to the Hugos?

It's definitely a work of fiction!

Funny enough, if you get rid of the fluff for Nodal Wars, they wrote more on having zero progress than I've written in less time on an entire new system. SMH

To add to that, I think Rick's drafted, printed and played with his own copies of Wave 2 - and moved on to other generations in the time they've wasted telling us they're doing nothing. The Palladium ability to dither is unsurpassed!

A human being can be conceived, develop, be born, and taught the ability to independently locomote and communicate in the time Palladium has fully developed nothing with regards to ANY wave 2 rewards since funding.

 warboss wrote:
A human being can be conceived, develop, born, and be taught the ability to independently locomote and communicate in the time Palladium has fully developed nothing with regards to ANY wave 2 rewards since funding.

I can attest to that, yes.

 warboss wrote:
A human being can be conceived, develop, born, and be taught the ability to independently locomote and communicate in the time Palladium has fully developed nothing with regards to ANY wave 2 rewards since funding.

And if we're talking about realistic completion (rather than starting progress), you can probably add "complete elementary school, graduate, earn a degree, get married, have children, grow old, and die of natural causes" to that list.

But they'll tell backers what's happening, when everything's ironed out, and there are no possible complications that could make it a "negative experience". Only good news from Kevin "Upbeat" Siembeda.

So I guess if I call PB to update my address since I moved for the off-chance of receiving wave2 it will be a rather awkward moment?
"Yes sir, we will update your <giggle> address for when <snicker> we ship... wave 2 to you <coughs and covers phone, hysterical joker-like laughter then a hang-up>"

I have it on good authority (lots of practice) that one can make a jerking-off motion on the phone without the party on the other end noticing.

(Not recommended during video chats)

Merijeek wrote:
I have it on good authority (lots of practice) that one can make a jerking-off motion on the phone without the party on the other end noticing.

(Not recommended during video chats)

I'm just going to say I would absolutely put money on Palladium staff not being able do to things at once.

WIP

Joyboozer wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
I have it on good authority (lots of practice) that one can make a jerking-off motion on the phone without the party on the other end noticing.

(Not recommended during video chats)

I'm just going to say I would absolutely put money on Palladium staff not being able do to things at once.

So we need to listen out for their voice getting louder then softer in a rhythmic manner, then

Guys...let's be fair here.

They would not make such mocking gestures and overtones to their customers as that would require them to live in this reality to realize that something is wrong. In Palladia, everything is happy fluffy bunnies and unicorns and rainbows that flow directly from KS. They would note down your information diligently, advising you how good it was you updated it now so that you didn't miss out on your rewards when Wave 2 starts shipping really, really soon. Like, this is probably as late as you could have updated it as it's going out so soon.

The gestures at this point would be local to the caller's phone I believe...

Or in my case, inside it. When I hear information like that, the mocking laugh of "Carry On" star Sid James comes to mind.

Guys, we need to not get confused with the KS comments page vs. here.
Alpharius has a duty to ensure we keep it to PG-13 or better... plus you are tempting me too much to fall on the wrong side of that.
Plus now I REALLY do not want to call PB for the update of address: I would not be able to keep a straight face or tone.

Found this cute little article about how some kickstarters that rather than fail, just never end or fade away:
http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/10/the-ugly-afterlife-of-crowdfunding-projects-that-never-ship-and-never-end/

 Talizvar wrote:

Found this cute little article about how some kickstarters that rather than fail, just never end or fade away:
http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/10/the-ugly-afterlife-of-crowdfunding-projects-that-never-ship-and-never-end/

Thanks for the link. Yeah, Palladium is probably praying that everyone just slowly forgets about the project while they keep slowly draining the funds left for ongoing expenses until nothing is left. We're a few days away from a full year without any real updates; a full year of only filler "updates" with vague promises and a complete lack of any real details or god forbid actual proof of life along with a healthy dose of sales pitches for other stuff until folks complained to kickstarter.

Someone on the comments page posted a link to PB's site where the notification of the Wave 1/2 split occured. Interestingly, the reason behind it was that Wave 1 could be released "in spring" and then Wave 2 "in the fall", or about 6 months apart.

I REALLY find it suspicious that a whole year has now passed since Wave 1 came out (I think its now closer to 18 months?). With the utter silence on Wave 2 it just keeps pointing that something has gone so horribly wrong - not just general PB laziness and foot-dragging, but that this thing is dead in the water for other reasons (finances?) and we will never see it.

Course, I think I've been saying that for the past 6 months, but this find just seems to throw more credence to the "There will be no Wave 2, ever".

Jaymz has already confirmed PB is out of money.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Jaymz has already confirmed PB is out of money.

But while Jaymz seems like a reasonable guy, and I don't have any reason to doubt him, it's hardly "confirmation". Especially as the source he's heard it from hasn't been revealed (and shouldn't, at least not by Jaymz, without the source's permission.

You can assign credibility there, and I give it more than I give a lot of other claims, both for and against. But it's not PROOF.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Jaymz has already confirmed PB is out of money.

But while Jaymz seems like a reasonable guy, and I don't have any reason to doubt him, it's hardly "confirmation". Especially as the source he's heard it from hasn't been revealed (and shouldn't, at least not by Jaymz, without the source's permission.

You can assign credibility there, and I give it more than I give a lot of other claims, both for and against. But it's not PROOF.

True.

Of course, what Jaymz has had to say is the only thing that fits observable fact.

Latest PBWU is up.

Not even a mention of Tactics in even the vaguest "We're working on it, promise!" way.

Only bits I found interesting, is that they're still trying to rope some fool into running an RRT tournament, and they don't seem to proofread or edit their cut and pastes.
"Gen Con needs ALL game information by Mid-February."
Now, it's mid March, according to GenCon. So someone might assume that they just mistyped the date. But they've shifted it three times already (initially Jan 31, Feb 10, Feb 14, and now Mid Feb)

I find it interesting that they've announced shipping of Heroes of Humanity in March, but as of yet haven't finalized a price or page count. I mean the current speed of printing doesn't mean it will necessarily be a holdup, but it does seem weird as a publishing outsider, that significant changes (page counts by PB tend to be in the 16 page divisible range) are being left so late. That's potentially a crapload of stuff to add/subtract in the final moments, and could lead to a serious error in editting or layout. But from what I know, that'd be nothing new for Palladium.

Also, finally banned from the Palladium Facebook page. Honestly surprised it took them so long. I mean, I haven't been profane, or directly insulting, but that didn't stop many others from being punted weeks ago.

We're officially less important than the new RiftsTM BagTM. It got a big early and prominent mention (available now! buy it!) whereas the remaining missing robotech products relegated to a couple of vague words in one sentance.

As for the multiple dates, there may be a kernel of truth in there twisted as always to Palladium's immediate needs/benefit. Back when I was going to gencon (admittedly last in 2007ish), there were multiple dates. The date for prereg opening (or going back many years pre-internet for getting into the prereg book), the date for getting your badge reimbursed, the date for getting into the onsite book, the date for getting onto the onsite TV screens, etc.

My info above is admittedly out of date but they did mention last year that they were as a company being charged a large amount for each table in the minis area (maybe because they didn't register early enough to get comped or because they weren't "fan run" but rather corporate games) which was one of the reasons (mentioned iirc only once or twice) for having minis games in the RPG room for which they apparently didn't have to pay or at least pay as much. The usual oft repeated "reason" was because they wanted to supposedly keep everything together but either Palladium or the MA in charge of the games mentioned the cost issue once or twice. The roving dates might have something to do with the above as well.

I was just grousing to a friend on the way PB keeps digging its hole deeper, and he commented that at this rate they'd reach China that way. Maybe that's how they intend to reduce shipping costs.

 warboss wrote:
We're officially less important than the new RiftsTM BagTM. It got a big early and prominent mention (available now! buy it!) whereas the remaining missing robotech products relegated to a couple of vague words in one sentence.

Well, at least they moved on from the "dice bag(!!)(tm)"
I will echo my comment from the KS page that Forar may have to add a new element to the "clock" of how many days since PB stopped mentioning wave2.
From their BBB replies to me, they figure we are not "out of pocket" (anyone who ordered anything to do with a starter kit) due to retail value of what was received.

So how does that fly when they weren't SELLING us anything?

We invested in a project due to the promise of receiving certain 'rewards'. They can't have it both ways, either we backed a project and we are still due certain rewards no matter the retail value of whatever we got so far, or it was a pre-order and they owe us refunds to those that want it [or to everyone if that means they no longer have the funds to do anything more]

And of course, they can't use that wishy-washy defence with me. [paid $140, received at best $5 worth decal sheet. And they think that's not "out of pocket"?

@Conrad: Note my weasel clause in brackets:
"(anyone who ordered anything to do with a starter kit)."

The good thing is afterward the FTC had "clarified" things in their lawsuit and made it clear rewards had to be given or refunded.

I am on the hook for about $140 on backerkit orders so I keep pounding on them for that: it is the clearest means of separation I have of an unfulfilled order.

@Conrad: In your case, it's more like it fits "in the pocket". :(

@Lynx: We'll know if that is their genius plan for cost savings on shipping if they put out a call for volunteers to undertake the perilous Journey to the Center of the EarthTM to help deliver it for free.

Hey guys, I just wanted to let you know I've been here for just over 100 pages and I thought I should celebrate some sort of anniversary or something.

*party hats and balloons*
Yay! I still don't have Wave 2 or any hope of a refund!
*kazoo noises*

Solidarity fist bump.

Celebratory mix of emoticons representing the rollercoaster of this KS:

Guess Kevin wants in on the celebrations. He just posted another update about his writing and... Geese! Yay




Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's on the FB page.

I'll have to see if it's the same thing as on the new murmur.

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=150507

New murmur just in time for the 1 year anniversary of the last real update on the remaining rewards... and it's focused on Canadians (both Homo genus and avian). They do however make mention of participating at various panels at Anime North. Perhaps that would be a good time for dakka attendees to politely but firmly press them for a non-vague jazz hand answer to why they have completely ignored showing ANY progress for over a year at that point. The firmly comes in when they reply with the typical "we can't tell you everything but we're working SOOOOOO hard" and not accepting that as a valid answer and pointing out that showing nothing is not acceptable and indicates no real work towards completing rewards in response. I'm not talking about name calling, raising voices, accusations of crimes, threats of governmental enforcement, or disrupting the panel etc. but rather factually bringing up their verifiable complete inability to live up to the expectations and promises that they chose to set during the Q&A portion of the panel. Let the rest of the panelist (if there are any besides Palladium) know about what their fellow panelists are up to or, more correctly, NOT up to. Getting it on a cell phone video and posting it up on youtube for the rest of us would be much appreciated as well. Multiple folks politely but firmly asking them about different failed aspects (no progress or real communication by one person, refusal to offer refunds after 3 years of delays by another, etc). Palladium has no power to kick anyone out of the room let alone the con and I'm not suggesting anything of the sort but publicly and firmly (but politely) making them face and address their failures would be worth a shot especially if folks are going there anyways.

I will be there Saturday.
I am not shy.
I will see what they open themselves up to for questioning.
I honestly figure nothing of substance will happen with it other than maybe make Kevin lose it.
If anything it may make him lose his taste for public appearances.
I think he is banking on the non-confrontational Canadian.
Oh well, just mention 2013 estimated delivery and no concrete information for a year now on wave 2.
I have other things to do there however and do not need to get kicked out due to making "the guest of honor" upset.

I just want to observe in case they claim "we were so busy" when if the 2013 appearance was any indication, no they really weren't

I wish you better luck than I had at Gencon. Admittedly, I didn't exactly bend over backwards to get attention, but while a couple of volunteers were generally pretty eager to approach anyone in earshot, Kevin and others working the booth were generally happy just chatting in a small group whenever I passed by, or not present, though it's possible our schedules just weren't aligning well at the time.

Oh well, I stand behind having put more effort in reaching out to them than they've apparently put into Wave 2, you gents can see what you can find out this year, and hey, hopefully next year I'll be at Gencon again, and we currently have no reason to believe that this gakshow will be wrapped up in the next 17 months, so perhaps I'll get a chance to ask them then.

Surely they'd interrupt their conversation for the opportunity to reassure one of their backers if asked politely?

Given the recent re-emergence of the Geese phenomenon, I wonder why the rest of you haven't caught on to why Kev is so happy to mention them.

1/ They don't raise criticism and spoil his perfect vision of the world.

But mainly

2/ He is one himself. Content to fly above the noise down below and relieve himself on anyone lower than him. [which of course means everyone, because surely no-one could be flying higher than Kev, right!]

That explains a lot.jajaja

 Conrad Turner wrote:
Given the recent re-emergence of the Geese phenomenon, I wonder why the rest of you haven't caught on to why Kev is so happy to mention them.
1/ They don't raise criticism and spoil his perfect vision of the world.
But mainly
2/ He is one himself. Content to fly above the noise down below and relieve himself on anyone lower than him. [which of course means everyone, because surely no-one could be flying higher than Kev, right!]

I suspect he views the geese much like his customers:
We make a lot of noise but we keep coming back for handouts.
They may have their own pecking order, but he is the one with the food and that is why they hang around.
They live a life so divorced from his own, they look cute through a window but you would certainly not want to get close.
He would feel no obligation to feed them if they no longer amuse him.

<sigh> I want my money or PB closed, the models are a forlorn hope.

 Talizvar wrote:
I suspect he views the geese much like his customers:
We make a lot of noise but we keep coming back for handouts.
They may have their own pecking order, but he is the one with the food and that is why they hang around.
They live a life so divorced from his own, they look cute through a window but you would certainly not want to get close.
He would feel no obligation to feed them if they no longer amuse him.

<sigh> I want my money or PB closed, the models are a forlorn hope.

Yeah, I suspect Palladium views that their ideal customers would be much like the geese. They'll sqawk lowdly but immediately eat up practically anything you throw to them and you can scare them away quickly when inconvienent. They'll of course be back to eat more whenever you feel like throwing them scraps again but until then you can just ignore them from inside the office.

If you do end up questioning Kevin and friends at Anime North, please get it on video even if it is just shaky hand cam. If it's good enough for Blair Witch and Cloverfield, it's good enough to capture a shaky glimpse of a flustered Wonderful Wizard of Ozaddium trying to weasel out of his responsibilities.

Took them two weeks to respond, but surprisingly they did!
-----------------
Regarding your Inquire:

Can you please show me evidence that you are
working towards producing Wave 2? Your "word" is not evidence.

As stated before, per Update # 186,
"The digital files and programs used for the 3D
sculpts were incompatible with the programs
necessary for manufacturing. The manufacturer has
had to recreate all the digital files, virtually
from scratch, using the 3D sculpts as references.
This process has been complicated by the
specifications and limitations of the
manufacturing process. Which in turn, has led to
long, ponderous periods of discussion, redesigns,
changes, corrections and a lot of parts to retain
the detailed game pieces everyone wanted. There
were many other challenges and issues in other
areas that also had to be addressed, all of them
taking time and valuable resources.
We have not been able to show you physical work
as of yet, because we are exploring different
possible solutions to the piece count issue,
sprue layouts, etc. This should provide a
different end result and different number of
pieces and a different final look. Until we nail
that all down, I’m afraid there is nothing new to
physically show at this time."

When we have more information that we can share, we will post it online.

Can you please explain why you are unwilling to
refund backerkit funds when they are not part of
the Kickstarter and constitute a pre-order for product?

BackerKit is a pledge manager, NOT a store, nor a
platform for pre-orders. The additional funds
added in BackerKit, if any, are NOT purchases or
pre-orders. The rewards and add-ons you are able
to select in BackerKit are exactly the same ones
available during the primary funding period, and
are indistinguishable from them. Delivery of
those rewards is governed by the same rules as
any other Kickstarter backer rewards. The backer
is pledging funds toward the creation of the
project, with the expectation of receiving the
stated rewards if and when the project is
completed. This is entirely unlike a pre-order or
purchase for an item which has already been
manufactured and is available for retail sale.
The pledge manager acts as an extension of the
Kickstarter project, NOT as a store or an avenue to place pre-orders.
------------
So I responded asking for any information as to the status of the project, not just showing me pics of models but ANYTHING. I'm sure you guys have seen all the new names popping up on the project comments page saying how upset they are. It's been so long but people are beginning to wake up. I know at least 3 guys from my MWO group have filed, possibly more. The tide is turning...

OFFS, just admit it's never coming you pathetic weasels!

 warboss wrote:
If you do end up questioning Kevin and friends at Anime North, please get it on video even if it is just shaky hand cam. If it's good enough for Blair Witch and Cloverfield, it's good enough to capture a shaky glimpse of a flustered Wonderful Wizard of Ozaddium trying to weasel out of his responsibilities.

I will see what I can do.
I will not really have a partner in crime to record it... I am not letting my wife and kids view the man-child hissy fit I am expecting.
Maybe Jaymz will assist since I plan to meet him.
Please note this is not my main reason for being there and I honestly expect to not get much out of used car salesman Kevin.
I assume you expect him to twist in the wind, no, he will just get angry and claim I am "being unreasonable" and a heckler... the trick is to remain calm.
I fully expect he has gone through this scenario a hundred times in his head since he is all about being blameless.
We shall see.

Now jeffer and Tom Roach will warn their God. Be careful you don't get kicked out Talisvar.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Now jeffer and Tom Roach will warn their God. Be careful you don't get kicked out Talisvar.

You can't get kicked out for asking a fact based question politely but firmly during the Q&A, no matter how uncomfortable it will make the slimeballs on the stage. If they give the typical pass the buck "we can't show you everything but we're working SOOOOoOOO hard!" response, you simply point out that the other extreme of showing nothing in progress and having nothing to show for all that work is not necessary; there are plenty of reasonable options available for the past YEAR between the two extremes. You then walk away. Victoriously pimp walking away after dropping the mic are entirely optional but not recommended.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:

I will not really have a partner in crime to record it... I am not letting my wife and kids view the man-child hissy fit I am expecting.
Maybe Jaymz will assist since I plan to meet him.
Please note this is not my main reason for being there and I honestly expect to not get much out of used car salesman Kevin.
I assume you expect him to twist in the wind, no, he will just get angry and claim I am "being unreasonable" and a heckler... the trick is to remain calm.
I fully expect he has gone through this scenario a hundred times in his head since he is all about being blameless.
We shall see.

I fully expect a slimey non-commital used car salesman promise about snake oil delivery right after you take him to task about a full year of used car salesman snake oil "updates". It's what they do... but it'll be nice to get the Q and the resultant A on video to show exactly how bad they are. As I've said multiple times and you posted above, the key is to be polite but firm and to respond to the typical slimeball buck passing with a reasonable fact based retort. I'll frankly be surprised if there will be alot of folks at the panel (both fans and/or con staff). If my experience is anything, they'll probably have one or two folks running inbetween multiple panel rooms checking up on things that have little to no interest in the exact topic being discussed. If they see you're being reasonable about the issues both in your tone yet firm (but not disruptive or angry), they'll have no reason to do anything no matter what shade of color Kevin and friends turn. You ask your question, let them dig their hole, and then kick some dirt over them by responding factually... and walk away.

I will gladly accompany you and record it to boot Tal

 Talizvar wrote:

I fully expect he has gone through this scenario a hundred times in his head since he is all about being blameless.
We shall see.

Actually, I'd be more inclined to believe the opposite - he hasn't thought about it as no one would dare shatter his illusion that everything is going EXACTLY to his expected timetable and being worked on to the fullest extent of his ability.

jaymz wrote:
I will gladly accompany you and record it to boot Tal

Ooooh! Can I have the little blacked-out rectangle over my eyes to preserve my anonymity?

Maybe Kevin will run away from the panel stage and hold up a con guide to cover his face from the camera like a politician caught sending genitalia pics to teenagers.... Nah, that would require him to be capable of shame.

pity enough can't go to the point the only questions being asked is where is wave 2, that would definitely wake them up, can see it now,

1st Question: Mr. Siembieda me and many others would like to know where wave 2 is on the RRT KS project?

response: we are working diligently on it, next person

next questor: Mr. Siembieda to re address first questors question, where is wave 2 and proof of its existance?

response: like I said we are working on it and it is so awesome when you will see it it will blow your mind. next person?

Next Questor: Mr. Siembieda you have failed to give an adequate answer to the first 2 people and have basically given the middle finger to all your backers in that they want to know what is up with wave 2.

Response: I don't need to put up with this lynch mob you will get it when you get it.

no more questions since how many would waste time to go talk to him at an anime convention?

 Talizvar wrote:

jaymz wrote:
I will gladly accompany you and record it to boot Tal

Ooooh! Can I have the little blacked-out rectangle over my eyes to preserve my anonymity?

I cant edit but my daughter might.

In keeping with tradition, it shouldn't be a single black bar, but a bar clearly made up of dozens of other bars.

Hollow rectangle. On the bottom of the screen put "Rest of bar to be delivered in 2013201420152016".

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Now jeffer and Tom Roach will warn their God. Be careful you don't get kicked out Talisvar.

I'm not sure what my religious beliefs have to do with this thread. I know they certainly have nothing to do with this Kickstarter or Palladium Books.

You think you could play dumb more convincingly.

Well, THEY have MY money and a reasonable query on how long one is to endure waiting before a product is sent since it has been TWO YEARS since the estimated delivery date and ONE YEAR of no meaningful updates of WAVE TWO progress. Since they are so certain of NO REFUNDS they only other option is delivery or a full disclosure failure (sorry, option 3 is to promise delivery FOREVER). Never mind the kickstarter IS NOT A STORE has been debunked in regards to rewards.

Yep, think I have it all covered.

I found this thread on Warseer of someone actually painting stuff! Gasp!

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?416847-Comission-Robotech

Wait, commission? Someone is being paid to paint Robotech. So someone is spending *more* money to get Robotech painted!

Looks good, tho.

In case some of you want this.

https://www.hlj.com/product/BANN05211/Act

It's hell of expensive, but if you MUST have a MACII, then yeah. And since this is Bandai, we're almost certainly going to get it when the release date comes around.

UPDATE!

Short version, blurry postage stamp (233x303 pixel) of a metal cast of the SDF1 resin, that was sculpted a long time ago, and they forgot to show backers.

Also, SOME backers are mean, and shouldn't say that Wave 2 is not happening. End of message.

So, there, haterz. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it. They're promising that they're working on it, and here's an inferior photo to "prove" it.

If it gets restocked, there's always this..

https://www.hlj.com/product/BAN966791/Sci

1/200 Destroid Monster kit.

yeah, it's nice they show *something*, but at this point I'm suspicious this was A) way back from 2013 and hasn't been touched then, B) stands the height of a Valkyrie miniature and C) they think they can have it by Adepticon (haven't they learned anything about throwing out dates they have no intention of keeping?)

I really do wonder who did the sculpt - it looks rather plain

 Stormonu wrote:

I really do wonder who did the sculpt - it looks rather plain

The one eyed lowest bidder/fan friend who apparently can only afford an analog motorola flip phone to take pictures.

There's no bar too low that Palladium can't fail to clear.

That picture actually pisses me off even more. The sculpt looks mediocre at best and the resolution is so grainy it makes me think they knew the sculpt was gakky and purposely took it lowres to fool us. I mean, what kind of camera now has THAT as a default resolution

Also, tried looking up the exif data to see when this photo was taken but it's been wiped apparently

Sining wrote:
That picture actually pisses me off even more. The sculpt looks mediocre at best and the resolution is so grainy it makes me think they knew the sculpt was gakky and purposely took it lowres to fool us. I mean, what kind of camera now has THAT as a default resolution

Also, tried looking up the exif data to see when this photo was taken but it's been wiped apparently

Only the best for the valued backers from a modern company like Palladium!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If it gets restocked, there's always this..

https://www.hlj.com/product/BAN966791/Sci

1/200 Destroid Monster kit.

I've had that on order since the RRT Kickstarter ended. It's fetch.

Stop trying to make fetch happen. It won't... just like wave 2.

Exactly.

No new information, horribly grainy pic they admit is old and unfinished, number of likes currently 27.
I'd post a slow clap gif, but don't think any of them deserve to be associated with Palladium.

Morgan Vening wrote:
UPDATE!

Short version, blurry postage stamp (233x303 pixel) of a metal cast of the SDF1 resin, that was sculpted a long time ago, and they forgot to show backers.

Also, SOME backers are mean, and shouldn't say that Wave 2 is not happening. End of message.

So, there, haterz. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it. They're promising that they're working on it, and here's an inferior photo to "prove" it.

This is what irks me. First, they forgot to show the model of the second most iconic mecha of the series to the fans who bought into this because of the models. Que question: Do they even know their target audience?

Second: If it's done so damn long ago, why hadn't they cast up some of it by now? If they are working so hard, things like resin casting something that's near completion is relatively straight-forward, especially since they have known contacts with good casting companies. I can forgive some of this because in a project, it's easy to get tunnel-visioned and forget about some stuff... but usually, a properly customer-focused company will look for low-hanging fruits to entertain its customers from time to time.

Palladium kept using the phrase "strategic planning" and "many irons in the fire", but I don't think they understand the words that are coming out of their mouths. Someone need to go educate them that:

Strategic planning with no eventual and reasonable translation into operational implementation is useless.

Having many irons in the fire is fething useless if none of them are ever taken out for finishing to completion.

EDIT: The one thing I took in the Update is that somewhere, somehow, the actions of the "haterz" are finally getting through to Palladium that they felt they need to do an update specifically to counter. Even that.. seriously, PB is ran on a delayed reaction mode timer?

Strategic Planning means they are working hard on this new fangled computer game thingy called "Command and Conquer"

And it does not matter how many irons you have in the fire, UNLESS YOU LIGHT THE FIRE!

I invested in that SDF-1 model. For some strange reason I thought it would be great to paint up and make a diorama box for the wall. You know; have a Valk flight wing and a few battlepods in a custom frame with neon coloured lexan rods mounted to simulate laser fire, and a nice printed space background with the battle fortress placed to simulate scale.

Yeah, planned that years ago. Haven't started on the box since I don't know if I'll be alive when they finally release wave 2.

anyone find it odd that their major excuse and that of their white knights on the hold up was getting sculpts approved thru HG, and yet for some reason HG approved this monstrosity that can be barely made out to be the SDF-1 (it is supposed to be the SDF-1 right?).

Yeesh...

Hey, guys. Wayne here.

I know it’s been a while without much info, and I’m sorry about that. Part of it is that I’ve been busy and distracted, but mostly it’s that phone calls and strategy meetings don’t often produce anything for me to show you. I’ll try to do better, but I know I’ve said that before so I don’t want to make any promises.

Oh boy...

It was only recently pointed out to me that you all have never seen the physical piece before. We saw the finished sculpt a long time ago, but frankly, all we at Palladium got to see was a low-resolution photo of the traditionally sculpted piece, with bits of different materials here and there, and some parts missing (because they would later be duplicated in manufacturing). It really wasn’t much to look at, and we didn’t want anyone to get the wrong impression of the final product. I realize that what I’m showing you here isn’t a very good photo either (and even more parts are missing from this pic), and that is partly why I’m trying to get some samples made to photograph. I’ll update you on that as soon as I can.

So...it might be a while?

I also want to say this. Some angry and frustrated backers have decided that Wave Two is never coming, that we’re not working on it, and that we’ve moved on and forgotten about it and you guys. And of course, now that they’ve decided that’s the way things are, they’ve been stating it as fact as loudly and as often as they can. Don’t you believe it. It’s not true at all. I know it is frustrating that we haven’t been able to show you much here lately, but that doesn’t mean there’s nothing going on. We are determined to deliver Wave Two as soon as we can, and we are still working to do just that.

The devil is in those pesky 'details' though, isn't it?

So I finally looked at the "update".
"Underwhelming" barely covers it.
I do have to say it really would have been easier for them to have posted nothing.
Wayne's apologies are at least more straightforward that Kevin's evasive ones.

Useless.
Uninformative.
Offal.

Moving on.

Asterios wrote:
anyone find it odd that their major excuse and that of their white knights on the hold up was getting sculpts approved thru HG, and yet for some reason HG approved this monstrosity that can be barely made out to be the SDF-1 (it is supposed to be the SDF-1 right?).

I think it is safe to say that nobody puts stock in what HG does or expects anything resembling quality from the current "team".
They are a certainly a road block to Palladium getting things done. I believe that HG is even less productive than PB and things probably sit on Yune's desk waiting for him to wake up from his 8 hour daily nap time. Perhaps, under all the doodles of furry versions of Robotech characters that he has strewn across his desk, he might find some approval waiting from Kevin S. and, heck, there's always tomorrow to take a look. Why not pay a visit to McKeever's work space to see what he isn't doing? Then they can scoot on over to Frank Agrama's office togehter and -- in between calls with Frank's lawyers about some foreign criminal activity and political scandals -- they can try to justify to him why he still pays them a salary.

Two awfully sedentary companies compound the problem.

 n815e wrote:

Asterios wrote:
anyone find it odd that their major excuse and that of their white knights on the hold up was getting sculpts approved thru HG, and yet for some reason HG approved this monstrosity that can be barely made out to be the SDF-1 (it is supposed to be the SDF-1 right?).

I think it is safe to say that nobody puts stock in what HG does or expects anything resembling quality from the current "team".
They are a certainly a road block to Palladium getting things done. I believe that HG is even less productive than PB and things probably sit on Yune's desk waiting for him to wake up from his 8 hour daily nap time. Perhaps, under all the doodles of furry versions of Robotech characters that he has strewn across his desk, he might find some approval waiting from Kevin S. and, heck, there's always tomorrow to take a look. Why not pay a visit to McKeever's work space to see what he isn't doing? Then they can scoot on over to Frank Agrama's office togehter and -- in between calls with Frank's lawyers about some foreign criminal activity and political scandals -- they can try to justify to him why he still pays them a salary.

Two awfully sedentary companies compound the problem.

so you are saying HG approved that monstrosity they are calling the SDF-1 in that picture?

Are you claiming that they didn't?

HG also approved the models that we've gotten so far.

 n815e wrote:


so you are saying HG approved that monstrosity they are calling the SDF-1 in that picture?

When it comes to dealing with other folks IP that he's licensed, Kevin wouldn't dare do/show anything without ensuring he was ironclad protected from being sued. So yeah, I'm sure HG approved this featureless, wrong-angled abomination.

Hell, the matchbox SDF-1 from the 80's is far better than this (semi-WIP) piece of shyte.

(Edit - dammit, can't fix the quote, which came from Asterios now)

Once again I see a bunch of new names popping up in the KS update comments saying how upset they are. I really hope that they follow the links and actually file. Wayne is completely out of touch if he thinks this one pitiful gesture is going to quell any upset.

More promises to update, if history proves anything, equates to another few months of silence and platitudes.

Someone pass me the lube, this is beginning to hurt.

Just close your eyes and think of Rifts™® England™® Book™® Two™®.

Merijeek wrote:
Just close your eyes and think of Rifts™® England™® Book™® Two™®.

Some interesting plot hooks and reboots of legendary characters but the interior art in there REALLY took a turn for the worse for the product line. The cover was much more D&D than rifts but very nice nevertheless.

@warboss:

<-- the joke
(you)

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@warboss:

<-- the joke
(you)

Thanks for the link. I'll admit that my turn of the century English feminine sexual inneudo knowledge base is lacking.

 warboss wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
Just close your eyes and think of Rifts™® England™® Book™® Two™®.

Some interesting plot hooks and reboots of legendary characters but the interior art in there REALLY took a turn for the worse for the product line. The cover was much more D&D than rifts but very nice nevertheless.

I think England was one of my least favourite world books. It was heavy on the fluff, granted, but the adventure hooks just didn't really grab me.

I mean.... leaf armour? MAGIC LEAF ARMOUR!?

Also the Arthurian stuff never really caught our eye. Atlantis and Africa (the WB's that preceded and followed it) had considerably more impacts in our games at least.

Well my BBB complaint has timed out with no response from PB so ill now be proceeding with the small claims court. I'll post up my evidence pack and so forth when I'm ready to go on with it.

 Forar wrote:

 warboss wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
Just close your eyes and think of Rifts™® England™® Book™® Two™®.

Some interesting plot hooks and reboots of legendary characters but the interior art in there REALLY took a turn for the worse for the product line. The cover was much more D&D than rifts but very nice nevertheless.

I think England was one of my least favourite world books. It was heavy on the fluff, granted, but the adventure hooks just didn't really grab me.

I mean.... leaf armour? MAGIC LEAF ARMOUR!?

Also the Arthurian stuff never really caught our eye. Atlantis and Africa (the WB's that preceded and followed it) had considerably more impacts in our games at least.

You're just an ignorant Canadian savage. Do you know no Tennyson? As he said, "Leaves are but the oak's plate and maile".

Duh.

winterdyne wrote:Well my BBB complaint has timed out with no response from PB so ill now be proceeding with the small claims court. I'll post up my evidence pack and so forth when I'm ready to go on with it.

Keep us updated on how it goes and the possible work around of likely not being physically present for the case works.

Merijeek wrote:

 Forar wrote:

I mean.... leaf armour? MAGIC LEAF ARMOUR!?

Also the Arthurian stuff never really caught our eye. Atlantis and Africa (the WB's that preceded and followed it) had considerably more impacts in our games at least.

You're just an ignorant Canadian savage. Do you know no Tennyson? As he said, "Leaves are but the oak's plate and maile".

Duh.

Don't tell Forar but I think he's just jealous that his colonial commonwealth overlords got the leaf armor and not RiftsTM: CanadaTM Eh?TM. First they came for their leaves and next it'll be flanel!

@Forar: I liked Atlantis but not so much Africa. I wasn't really happy with how the whole four horsemen thing turned out overall (and frankly can't even remember the details at the moment). It was a big silly build up and then a massive letdown just like the Coalition Wars series of books.

Oh, those were just the content that bookended England, which I happened to like more.

My actual favourites were, based on the ones I've actually kept;

Triax (Book 5)
Coalition War Campaign (Book 11)
Psyscape (Book 12)

There were others that I appreciated for fluff or crunch reasons (Juicer Uprising, New West, Federation of Magic), even if I didn't use them all that often for characters myself.

Hell, my forum handle stems from the first Rifts character I ever played, made using a class and other stuff from Triax.

Two decades ago as of sometime this year, if I'm not mistaken.

 Forar wrote:
Oh, those were just the content that bookended England, which I happened to like more.

My actual favourites were, based on the ones I've actually kept;

Triax (Book 5)
Coalition War Campaign (Book 11)
Psyscape (Book 12)

There were others that I appreciated for fluff or crunch reasons (Juicer Uprising, New West, Federation of Magic), even if I didn't use them all that often for characters myself.

Hell, my forum handle stems from the first Rifts character I ever played, made using a class and other stuff from Triax.

Two decades ago as of sometime this year, if I'm not mistaken.

Triax is absolutely my favorite as well. I was really excited in an irrational sort of way when Triax 2 came out (knowing that the decade inbetween was not.. um... kind to the creativity and talent of Palladium) but it was just a letdown, especially the art and robot designs (my favorite part of Triax 1). Outside of Robotech, the Triax designs were my fav pieces of art from Kevin Long. If I had to list the other favs, I'd say in no particular order after the first:

Triax 1, Original/Revised Sourcebook, Vampire Kingdoms, Rifts Conversion Manual 1, Phase World, and Underseas. Close but not quite (again in no particular order) would be Wormwood, the second Triax expansion sourcebook (the one with the Brodkil empire covered in depth, NOT Triax 2), and Rifts Japan (which would have been in the top 6 if not for the art).

Morgan Vening wrote:
UPDATE!
Short version, blurry postage stamp (233x303 pixel) of a metal cast of the SDF1 resin, that was sculpted a long time ago, and they forgot to show backers.
Also, SOME backers are mean, and shouldn't say that Wave 2 is not happening. End of message.
So, there, haterz. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it. They're promising that they're working on it, and here's an inferior photo to "prove" it.

Joyboozer wrote:
No new information, horribly grainy pic they admit is old and unfinished, number of likes currently 27.
I'd post a slow clap gif, but don't think any of them deserve to be associated with Palladium.

Ayup - when only a low percentage of folks even comment in the first place on any particular forum, that there is inevitably still those who'll ''like'' information they may not even have read gets more than a little tiresome.
That a number of those ''liking'' such dross actually believe in it or have no problem with it, whether they always vocally defend it or not, does not imply nice things about our shared species.

Plus of course such examples (is a handful an outpouring?) of ''obvious devotion'' can apparently have a considerable effect in helping to prop up by a company for years, or at least be used as indicators (justifications?) of ''we must not be doing anything wrong''.

 darkminstrel wrote:
Once again I see a bunch of new names popping up in the KS update comments saying how upset they are.

Something I find personally amusing (not about how the backers have been treated, mind) is that I've seen at least two folks make comments against Palladium, yet at the same time they're somehow perfectly okay with another company *cough*DP9*cough* pulling the same kind of stunts either now or in the past.

It was a rather a mind-bending WTF..?! realization for me when those names finally sunk in; folks are inconsistent, because you know, they're people and all, but still.

_
_

Well, you see, DP9 isn't yet 3 years in like Palladium... Tho I do like how people are defending DP9 shorting product (while announcing all new Jovian Chronicles stuff that appeared out of nowhere), and not allowing refunds for changing the deal.

As I see it, Palladium is still promising that they'll deliver everything. Eventually.

DP9 is definitely shorting backers, while promising to deliver the balance only a few months late.

From a basic delivery standpoint, Palladium having delivered 30%, and promising to deliver 100% beats DP9 having delivered nothing and promising to deliver at most 90%.

We'll see how this pans out, but I know for a fact that I've got some RRT models in hand and built...

Sorry, a DP9 in hand beats Wave 2 in the bush.

Uh, Robotech Wave 1 is in hand. DP9 hasn't delivered anything.

DP9 have delivered 74 man hours per day from one guy for months. You can't argue with that kind of commitment. Also fewer gears than were promised but these things happen...

I'm not a backer for Heavy Gear, but didn't they allow people to reallocate funds, change up pledge manager stuff, and order pewter versions of the one they'd be unable to buy plastic kits for? I remember someone mentioning they had lined up a considerable number of ways they were trying to make good on the matter.

I don't know how incredible/mouth watering that specific mech or design was, but if a KS said "hey guys, our currency dropped by like 20% in the last year, we're in the weeds without some changes", I think I'd be pretty understanding of what is entirely out of their control/an act of god/etc.

I definitely wouldn't equate "we're working, and have stuff to show, and apologize for issues beyond our control" to " *silence for 12 months* ".

But again, I'm not a backer, so if there are intricacies or extenuating aspects to this, I'm open to hearing about it.

 plastictrees wrote:
DP9 have delivered 74 man hours per day from one guy for months. You can't argue with that kind of commitment. Also fewer gears than were promised but these things happen...

I think someone needs to ask Kevin how many hours he's pouring into Robotech each and every day. I bet he'll tell you it's way more than that each day. 400 days a year. And that's just Kevin alone.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Uh, Robotech Wave 1 is in hand. DP9 hasn't delivered anything.

Palladium delivered less than half of the rewards promised one full year late (more if you weren't in NA) and is on track to deliver nothing for the subsequent two after that. Until DP9 is a year late, it's not a fair comparison.

Life isn't fair, that's a given. Just because Palladium is more gak, doesn't give the Pod a pass when they feth up.

 Forar wrote:

I definitely wouldn't equate "we're working, and have stuff to show, and apologize for issues beyond our control" to " *silence for 12 months* ".

But again, I'm not a backer, so if there are intricacies or extenuating aspects to this, I'm open to hearing about it.

That about covers it. The only thing I'd add is that they knew they'd have to pay in USD for production and saw the $CAD tanking for months but chose to do nothing about it (like transfer it to USD). That part was in their control even if the actual value of the currency wasn't.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Life isn't fair, that's a given. Just because Palladium is more gak, doesn't give the Pod a pass when they feth up.

Correct... but that doesn't make your comparison any more valid. The kickstarters were separated iirc by almost 2 years; that should factor into any reasonable comparison of progress when discussing product in hand.

DP9 looks good. Next to Palladium, that is.

That's not saying much, when you think about it...

 plastictrees wrote:
DP9 have delivered 74 man hours per day from one guy for months. You can't argue with that kind of commitment.

When Kevin or his supporters make that kind of claim it's obviously complete BS - because their word has demonstrably and so very obviously been the total opposite of reality even before their Kickstarter.
How is that reality any different for any other company with a similarly checkered past, who're all the time saying the exact same words, and expecting everyone to believe the statement based on nothing more than that unsupported word alone.

The point I was trying to make had not much to do with any KS in particular, but rather how one company can operate in a shady fashion yet still garner support from folks who're somehow simultaneously against another company operating in the exact same manner.

 Forar wrote:
I'm not a backer for Heavy Gear, but didn't they allow people to reallocate funds, change up pledge manager stuff, and order pewter versions of the one they'd be unable to buy plastic kits for? I remember someone mentioning they had lined up a considerable number of ways they were trying to make good on the matter.

It was offered (albeit at a small increment) because the Pod went with a strict no refunds policy, even if folks did not want any product other than the models that were cut.
The main page for the DP9 KS states no refunds will (ever) be offered, but I can't tell and don't remember if it stated that before/during/since the campaign or if that was an edit around the time of the update announcing that two (2) unlocked models would be cut.

Basically the reasoning given, as no clear explanation was/has been offered, is that the majority of the monies pledged was already spent on molds whose final quote was higher than expected on top of unexpected extreme currency fluctuations.
There is also a question in the minds of a few as to what use the up to ~$15K saved by not making a sixth mold is intended or if that was to large extent subsumed by the CAD fluctuation, but as yet there has been no company response (With none expected).


Again, I was not trying to equate one KS with another, just observing the similarities between supporters and detractors of these two companies when considered as part of a larger picture.
As for the rest of your question, probably best to skim through the dedicated HG KS thread here on dakka.

_
_

 HudsonD wrote:
DP9 looks good. Next to Palladium, that is.

That's not saying much, when you think about it...

That's pretty much the Pod's entire story... at least we're not Palladium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Life isn't fair, that's a given. Just because Palladium is more gak, doesn't give the Pod a pass when they feth up.

Correct... but that doesn't make your comparison any more valid. The kickstarters were separated iirc by almost 2 years; that should factor into any reasonable comparison of progress when discussing product in hand.

OTOH, it's obvious that Palladium diverted Robotech money to fund RIFTS, just as the Pod diverted at least $15k of HG monies to fund Jovian Chronicles.

 Smilodon_UP wrote:

The point I was trying to make had not much to do with any KS in particular, but rather how one company can operate in a shady fashion yet still garner support from folks who're somehow simultaneously against another company operating in the exact same manner.

I'm not sure if that's about me but, if so, I'd say that my difference in opinion on how the two kickstarters have progressed is because suck isn't binary but rather a spectrum. It mildly sucks that DP9 is running 6+ months late and are only delivering 90% of the sculpts promised with no recompense for backers losing out on a pair of models per sweetspot pledge... but it majorly sucks that palladium delivered a third of the sculpts and only half the models one year late and there is no sign of the rest 2.5 years post funding. Neither is good but one is a hellavu lot worse IMO. This is of course comparing just the kickstarters and not the stupid and/or shady things both companies have done pre-KS over the decades. The severity of the reaction should be proportional to the initial action.

To be fair, if you would just go back a page, you would see Palladium's latest "progress" with the SDF-1 promised for Wave 2. Just sayin'.

I find there are too many variables to compare for a proper "apples to apples" comparison of how good or bad a job a company does on a KS.
I am not terribly familiar with DP9's KS but if they communicate something went wrong, that is good.
To give options when they cannot do as promised, is also a good thing (as long as they are "viable" alternatives).
To receive some kind of "meaningful" communication at least makes the customer feel engaged rather than the guessing game we have with PB.

I have seen it played out time and time again: companies and people will make errors or mess-up royally, what really shows what they are made of is how they handle it and try to make good with their customers. Or how others just look at what is expedient for them...

While it's never going to be a perfect apples to apples comparison, HG seems to be dealing with problems vastly more transparently than RRT.

It might be a complete gakshow. Dropping one model might be the end of days and completely ruin the game for some people, but at least they're talking about it.

I wouldn't be happy to hear that the Super VTs were being skipped to save money, or something like that, but as we've pointed out repeatedly here, Updates aren't just for good news. Admitting to massive problems and presenting good faith efforts to resolve them (even if they don't please every last backer) is infinitely preferable to having massive problems and being silent for an entire year.

Whether or not their resolution chosen pleases 100% of their backers, the fact they've admitted to problems and are trying to offer choices within their control to placate as many backers as possible is a stance I'd have been much happier to see from PB than the forced cheerfulness and 'golly gee how did we forget to show off this pic we've had for ages?' bull that landed last week.

Also, the pedant in me would like to note that we received 70/97 figures per Battle Cry, making it much closer to 2/3 by raw quantity (though admittedly that's ignoring add ons, which some I know went into heavily, such as our long suffering Decal recipient).

 Talizvar wrote:
I find there are too many variables to compare for a proper "apples to apples" comparison of how good or bad a job a company does on a KS.
I am not terribly familiar with DP9's KS but if they communicate something went wrong, that is good.
To give options when they cannot do as promised, is also a good thing (as long as they are "viable" alternatives).
To receive some kind of "meaningful" communication at least makes the customer feel engaged rather than the guessing game we have with PB.

I have seen it played out time and time again: companies and people will make errors or mess-up royally, what really shows what they are made of is how they handle it and try to make good with their customers. Or how others just look at what is expedient for them...

They've done an ok job with communication overall and have even been good at times (whether or not folks like the actual content of what they're communicating is another story). They could have commented on the ongoing currency issue during the full year+ in between funding and their proposed delivery date; instead they chose to finally say "Houston, we have a problem..." two months after they were supposed to have delivered all rewards. I suppose during the intervening 15 months they were crossing their fingers, lighting candles at church, and pinky swearing to never delay again in the future hoping that things would change in the present but they didn't and backers end up paying (the admittedly minor) price. They communicated open and honestly a few months late but that's still better than Palladium's never several years in regarding most of the sculpts.

Shrug. I'm one of those who think DP9 is doing a decent job, so I'm biased. And I'm not saying DP9 is doing a decent job relative to PB, I'm just saying they are doing a decent job.

Their decision to drop a couple of models from the box, to me is ok. The problem was understandable -- currency depreciation. Some of you may not feel it but for us non-US folks who buy into plasticrack, it's a real problem.. my currency went from 1.2 to 1.4+ to the greenback and that, along with all the shipping cost jumps, curtained buying.

So they made the decision to drop stuff, and yeah they chose to drop something and tell us after the fact. I'm ok with that because.. well, it's a business not a democracy. They are running the show and I expect them to make rational decisions, with information that isn't based on bias (like mine would be). What they chose to drop, from what I can see, were non-fatal and were fairly niche anyway.

Could they have handled the decision making differently? Sure, they could have offered the backers a vote, and then sure, we could tally up and then make a call... but basically the vote would have been rigged and we'd have been given an illusion of choice anyway.

(For a quick reason why the vote would have been rigged: They're not going to get rid of basic units nor popular units that will benefit them in terms of economics of scale. They won't shoot a whole faction either. So the only things available to get dropped were things that were niche or fringe anyway. So it's just an illusion of choice.)

Comms are ok, especially closer to the end now with much more manufacturing niceties; previously they had shots of in-progress, which PB could have done similarly. Now they have shots of molds with obvious HGB stuff in it. Believable, yes? We see proof that they are moving into manufacturing. To me is good enough, to others is not. Shrug, C'est la Vie.

 Forar wrote:
While it's never going to be a perfect apples to apples comparison, HG seems to be dealing with problems vastly more transparently than RRT.

Or, you know, actually dealing with it. At all.

Back to Robotech (and apologies my part in the side track discussion of another anime robot minis kickstarter)...

For all you 3D printer knowledgeable folks, does anyone know of a source for tiny (roughly 1/1250 scale or <1cm) zentraedi mecha? I was thinking of making some flight stands for my Halo Zentraedi fleet and was hoping something like that (whether plastic, resin, metal, or shapeways) existed. I know they have tiny RDF/UEDF mecha as part of the larger expensive SDF kits and I've found some tiny human mecha but I don't think I've ever seen teeny tiny Zentraedi models. I'd be mounting them 1-3 per 2cm square base so they need to be tiny.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Forar wrote:

Also, the pedant in me would like to note that we received 70/97 figures per Battle Cry, making it much closer to 2/3 by raw quantity (though admittedly that's ignoring add ons, which some I know went into heavily, such as our long suffering Decal recipient).

Thanks for the clarification (no sarcasm). I thought the amount received was lower proportionately but I guess Palladium will have to excuse my error given that I pledged for them so many years earlier (sarcasm).

 Smilodon_UP wrote:
Something I find personally amusing (not about how the backers have been treated, mind) is that I've seen at least two folks make comments against Palladium, yet at the same time they're somehow perfectly okay with another company *cough*DP9*cough* pulling the same kind of stunts either now or in the past.

I think its rather unfair to compare the problems the DP9 HG kickstarter, and the problems with the PB RRPGT kickstarter.

No argument that the DP9 issue is a problem of their own making, but they owned up to it. Yeah, they had to drop two of the plastic figures they promised as stretch goals, but that's only two figures out of the still generous number in most of the backer packages and their delays are measured in months, not years. Personally, I'd rather they drop two figures rather than go out of business trying to include them. Also, no one seems to be in any doubt that DP9 will still fulfill their promised pledge packages (minus two figures). They continue to post updates on their progress, including digital renderings of most/all the figures and recently actual photographs of the finished steel molds.

PB on the other hand has repeatedly lied, blamed other people, refused to post substantive updates and just ignored their backers to the point where most people have accepted that PB will never complete the Wave 2 fulfillment.

Big difference in my eyes. YMMV of course.

So, it's likely that sometime between April and June we'll get another Simbieda epic ramble about how much he loves everyone and wants to restart the discussion on a good, healthy, and forgiving note.

Will we be getting a new thread at that point?

Merijeek wrote:
So, it's likely that sometime between April and June we'll get another Simbieda epic ramble about how much he loves everyone and wants to restart the discussion on a good, healthy, and forgiving note.

Will we be getting a new thread at that point?

I proposed a third thread a few weeks ago when the "relaunch" occurs as this one is getting long in the tooth but that relaunch, like reward completion, keeps moving further off in the distance. The relaunch/love fest apology will likely be the two slices of bread on the massive gak sandwich that tells us the next problem that totally isn't their fault but we valued backers have to pay the price. The only thing that remains to be seen is exactly what combination of one to all of the following it will contain:

1) We're shipping to multipe waves to stores first for months before any backers get their stuff (ala the AVP kickstarter)

2) We're just flat out not making certain models and you'll just have to deal with it; if you're lucky we'll give you a choice on crap you don't want more of (ala the HG kickstarter)

3) We're delaying the completion officially to 2017 (ala the... well.. this Robotech kickstarter)

4) China/Ninja Division/Geese/Harmony Gold supposedly screwed us over and we're just going to give you nothing while staying silent for years (ala the Ice Age Mammals kickstarter)

5) Screw this... we're going out of business and legally absolving us from your rewards (ala the Defiance Games kickstarter)

I'm curious how many bad habits this one kickstarter can accrue.

@warboss - I think #2 is a very distinct possibility, due to how DP9 appears to be getting away with it.

Quite frankly, losing the Jotun Valks wouldn't be the worst thing... Same with the VF-4s and drones. I doubt many would miss them. Especially for how bad the drones look.

As long as we get the Armored / Super / Strike Valks, MPA & FPA, and Monster, that would be fine. Plus alternate cards for the named characters.

OTOH, drop the Monster, and I'll be getting out the torches & pitchforks!

 warboss wrote:
I'm curious how many bad habits this one kickstarter can accrue.

Gah! Do they not have enough bad habits as it is?
They had plenty prior to this KS, never mind developing new ones!
You know, I am shocked how low an opinion I have of a bunch of people that are employed and are not known recreational drug users.
Shocking I tell you!

Well, the Hotlead gaming weekend coming up on the 18th in my (approximate) area.
I wonder how many RRT starter kits will be at the "bring and buy"?
http://www.hotlead.ca/
Anyone going, let me know... maybe we can play RRT... hehehehe

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@warboss - I think #2 is a very distinct possibility, due to how DP9 appears to be getting away with it.

Quite frankly, losing the Jotun Valks wouldn't be the worst thing... Same with the VF-4s and drones. I doubt many would miss them. Especially for how bad the drones look.

As long as we get the Armored / Super / Strike Valks, MPA & FPA, and Monster, that would be fine. Plus alternate cards for the named characters.

OTOH, drop the Monster, and I'll be getting out the torches & pitchforks!

Yeah, the VF-4, Jotun, and remaining experimental zentraedi bits should be one of the first to go (along with remaining custom bases if any and the objective markers like the tuna). They weren't really in the show (except for a few seconds in a single episode if that). After that, I'd say get rid of special characters and just turn them all into a single sprue of a couple of variant bits that you add onto a standard model of the same type (so Roy Fokker just gets a variant cockpit canopy x3 for example). After that, I'd say the various space non-transforming stuff like lancers and ghosts even though they also were in a few episodes. Next up and a last resort would be the VEF/trainer combo kit; while the trainer was the focus in a few episodes, the VEF was just a quicky shot like the above but I'd personally give it priority simply for being an iconic veritech variant over the lancer and ghost. Anything more than that and I'd say they'd be cutting off their nose to spite their face. YMMV. I would point out that I would be getting some of the above in my wave 2 shipment so I'm not just cherry picking stuff I didn't order or don't care about.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Uh, Robotech Wave 1 is in hand. DP9 hasn't delivered anything.

I shouldn't try to make jokes while I'm sick. I think I may have pulled something doing so.

 Talizvar wrote:
Gah! Do they not have enough bad habits as it is?
They had plenty prior to this KS, never mind developing new ones!

I suppose that's what they mean when they claim that the old dog Palladium is indeed capable of learning new tricks... but they just end up picking up equally irresponsible habits for new mediums instead of learning from their previous mistakes. Eh, a year to several years late on almost every RPG book so a a year to several years late on almost every crowdfunding and minis project as well. Progress, Palladium style.

 warboss wrote:

Spoiler:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@warboss - I think #2 is a very distinct possibility, due to how DP9 appears to be getting away with it.

Quite frankly, losing the Jotun Valks wouldn't be the worst thing... Same with the VF-4s and drones. I doubt many would miss them. Especially for how bad the drones look.

As long as we get the Armored / Super / Strike Valks, MPA & FPA, and Monster, that would be fine. Plus alternate cards for the named characters.

OTOH, drop the Monster, and I'll be getting out the torches & pitchforks!

Yeah, the VF-4, Jotun, and remaining experimental zentraedi bits should be one of the first to go (along with remaining custom bases if any and the objective markers like the tuna). They weren't really in the show (except for a few seconds in a single episode if that). After that, I'd say get rid of special characters and just turn them all into a single sprue of a couple of variant bits that you add onto a standard model of the same type (so Roy Fokker just gets a variant cockpit canopy x3 for example). After that, I'd say the various space non-transforming stuff like lancers and ghosts even though they also were in a few episodes. Next up and a last resort would be the VEF/trainer combo kit; while the trainer was the focus in a few episodes, the VEF was just a quicky shot like the above but I'd personally give it priority simply for being an iconic veritech variant over the lancer and ghost. Anything more than that and I'd say they'd be cutting off their nose to spite their face. YMMV. I would point out that I would be getting some of the above in my wave 2 shipment so I'm not just cherry picking stuff I didn't order or don't care about.

I'm basically agreed with all of that, although I'd probably be OK with the names just getting a generic Valk / FPA model and a special card. The Strike / Super / VEF / trainer bits can be on a sprue and packed with the existing Valks, Armored needs to be its own kit, but fortunately, it's basically a Destroid, so not too complex. So 2 sprues to cover all of the Valk whatnots. Then still need a sprue for the MPAs, another sprue for the FPAs, and a couple sprues for the Monster. So that's a half-dozen new sprues to cover the several things that people will want most.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm basically agreed with all of that, although I'd probably be OK with the names just getting a generic Valk / FPA model and a special card. The Strike / Super / VEF / trainer bits can be on a sprue and packed with the existing Valks, Armored needs to be its own kit, but fortunately, it's basically a Destroid, so not too complex. So 2 sprues to cover all of the Valk whatnots. Then still need a sprue for the MPAs, another sprue for the FPAs, and a couple sprues for the Monster. So that's a half-dozen new sprues to cover the several things that people will want most.

The problem is, from a purely business point, the first thing to be cut would be the Monster (after cutting character models for the reasoning I give below). While I understand you've got a personal jonesing for it, it'd make sense.

From what I've seen of the scale, the Monster is going to be at least 2 sprues, probably at least 3, and not unreasonably 4. For argument's sake, I'll use three. And lets assuming a similar MSRP calculation to what they've already done.

The existing models are at most, two distinct sprues per. Battleoid and Guardian/Fighter, Destroid 1 and Destroid 2. Some, like BP and BPArty are singular.

So that means the fixed costs of a single sprue box is X, a dual sprue box is 2X, and a Monster is 3X. Now, as the MSRP of the Monster is twice that (for the most part) of a normal box, it could essentially count as 1.5X.

But then you need to take into account relative rarity. While it's most definitely a showpiece mecha, that works against it. While most players might purchase a squad of any other thing (AValk, SValk, Jotun, etc), they might purchase more. But few people are going to want to own more than a single Monster, and a significant if minority portion won't want any. That it was an addon may or may not work against it. We don't know how many were pre-ordered. If it were significant, then nullifying it is harder. But if it was only several hundred, then you're looking at needing to sell several thousand at retail just to pay for the cost of producing it.

From what I can see, the order of completion would be
AValks (single sprue most desired, not a BC unit, but one that should sell signifcantly, making number purchased new, vs dead weight to backers, a good point),
SValk (dual sprue most desired),
Lancer/Ghost (if they're smart, they'd do them on the same sprue, as it'd make it cheaper to punch, and they'd just have to deal with backers who paid for one, and not the other, easily handled if they do it as snapaways.),
Jotun/YF-4/VEF1D (progressively less niche, progressively more expensive),
Monster,
Character Models (because they'd be lucky to sell enough at Conventions to ever get back the costs required to make them, unless they try to get around Konsclusives, which let's face it, is an expectation at this point).

For the Zen,
FPA (single sprue, most desired)
MPA (single sprue, second most desired of remaining)
Gnerls (only to satisfy BC issues)
Zent Inf (SHOULD be able to do single sprue, 3 poses per, but I don't count on PB to do it right)
Glaug Eldare (same issues as the Monster, less sprues, but likely less interest).
Character Models for the same reason.

The thing is, I think a lot of people put money into the Monster, because it is the visual centerpiece. Consider how many 40k players own (Knight) Titans, for example.

Also, the number of symmetrical parts on the Monster actually brings the tooling cost down. The Monster can be done as 2 tools (hull / arms+legs+guns), but they'd have to throw 2 sets of arms+legs+guns sprues in each box.

Remember, most of the intent is to capture things from the anime. That means Valks, Pods, Destroids & PAs. Not Jotuns and Drones.

As above, the Characters don't require any tooling. They only require printing, which is pennies.

I'm sorta expecting PB to just throw up their hands at some point. Maybe offer store credit or discounts off of Rifts books. Or give away the left over core sets.

But converting the character models to a single add-on sprue that just offers customizable bits is a pretty smart idea.

I agree that making a small add-on sprue coupled with an existing model kit is the way to go. GW has been doing that for years. The character veritechs should be simple. Some hand, leg and arm alternatives and a different decal sheet.

Ctaylor wrote:I'm sorta expecting PB to just throw up their hands at some point. Maybe offer store credit or discounts off of Rifts books. Or give away the left over core sets.

But converting the character models to a single add-on sprue that just offers customizable bits is a pretty smart idea.

That's my thought too.
Kevin: "Here kiddies, have a Kickstarter Grab Bag filled with refrigerator art and Coalition coffee mugs. We'll even throw in a free Rifter so you can check out our other product lines, 'cuz we know once you see them, you'll gotta have 'em."

Talizvar wrote:I agree that making a small add-on sprue coupled with an existing model kit is the way to go. GW has been doing that for years. The character veritechs should be simple. Some hand, leg and arm alternatives and a different decal sheet.

Characters would be the one thing I wouldn't miss. We already have the stat cards and the minis are too small to get any decoration cut into them that would be worthy of being distinct. Best bet does seem to go to just throw in the existing models sprues, a card and some decals/paint guides.

Though I don't expect we will EVER see Wave 2 at this point, PB announcing they're cutting the monster in order to finish the rest of line would just be the topping to this disaster.

I think this is setting the bar too high. Remember that Kevin thinks that we've already gotten more than what we put in based on their inflated msrp. Maybe they'll offer credit for the add-ons that weren't produced, but I don't expect them to offer anything for the outstanding battlecry/showdown/reckless sets.

 Ctaylor wrote:
I'm sorta expecting PB to just throw up their hands at some point. Maybe offer store credit or discounts off of Rifts books. Or give away the left over core sets.

But converting the character models to a single add-on sprue that just offers customizable bits is a pretty smart idea.

 Stormonu wrote:

Talizvar wrote:I agree that making a small add-on sprue coupled with an existing model kit is the way to go. GW has been doing that for years. The character veritechs should be simple. Some hand, leg and arm alternatives and a different decal sheet.

Characters would be the one thing I wouldn't miss. We already have the stat cards and the minis are too small to get any decoration cut into them that would be worthy of being distinct. Best bet does seem to go to just throw in the existing models sprues, a card and some decals/paint guides.

Though I don't expect we will EVER see Wave 2 at this point, PB announcing they're cutting the monster in order to finish the rest of line would just be the topping to this disaster.

At this point though, I don't think PB can do any of these changes without a significant backlash. While some people seem to have a hate-on for DP9 (and I'm not arguing it's not justified, I read the other Dakka thread), this is really the first issue the Heavy Gear Kickstarter itself has had (other than the relatively minor delay), and they were reasonably upfront about the issue (could have been handled better, but wasn't handled horribly), have been fairly decent about showing the process to backers, and seem close to fulfillment, May being the last date given.

Contrast that with the PB Kickstarter, where they've been promising rainbows and roses for years, and a fairly systematic destruction of any goodwill. Any changes, particularly unilateral ones, is likely to be met much more harshly at this point. Even something that several years ago, might have been accepted, like removing character models. Especially given that 343 backers backed exclusively for a Rick Hunter model. Telling them that they could have had a regular Veritech 18+ months ago, but were strung along on wishful thinking and promises Wave 2 would be done, but now, well, screw them, PB don't want to pay for the mold.

The opportunity for PB to do anything but fulfill what was initially promised (or alternately, offer refunds), is well passed. Too many promises made, too many promises broken, too much time has passed. Some people would accept the unilateral change, but I think enough others wouldn't. And triggering the "If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards" part of the T&C. And that'd (IMO) result in sufficient numbers of backers wanting to put the refund clause into effect, that it'd sink it. Because while I don't necessarily think there's a majority who are completely done with the project at this point, there's at least a significant minority who are, and I don't think PB could afford that.

Morgan Vening wrote:
Especially given that 343 backers backed exclusively for a Rick Hunter model. Telling them that they could have had a regular Veritech 18+ months ago, but were strung along on wishful thinking and promises Wave 2 would be done, but now, well, screw them, PB don't want to pay for the mold.

I could see a pewter or resin add-on blister pack thrown in a regular Veritech pack for the character, Super, Armored and scout/trainer variants as the easiest "cop-out" but the various Zent models will not be as pleasant a thing to work around. The larger models desperately need to be "normal" plastic though it might have a shot as resin.

One can only hope those boys at PB have a clue and while they are "exploring their options" they can run with some ideas of their fanbase to get them out of whatever hole they fell into.

If they had to get rid of anything they can lose the lancer and zent experimental stuff. I'd rather keep the vf-4 and ghost. I'd rather have everything so please stop giving Kevin's mini spy's ideas that they can take back to their lord and savior. They'll probably present it as their idea.

At this point, even delivering what was promised -- to the letter -- would not generate much goodwill. At best, it can be said that the KS finally delivered.

Drop anything, irregularities, more delays, say something wrong on social media.. basically PB dug itself into a hole where everything they can do, including deliver, would be condemned by someone somewhere somewhen.

They said they want to do a relaunch, which... is up to them. But the rep of the game is basically soured, so it'd be twice as difficult. And they hadn't demonstrate much ability to learn from past mistakes.

So, Miniature Market has some RRT stuff at over 50% off MSRP.

I really want to get some of those ONE star reviewed destroids! None of the others have an actual review.

Morgan Vening wrote:

Zent Inf (SHOULD be able to do single sprue, 3 poses per, but I don't count on PB to do it right)

problem is there are 2 types of infantry units too.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
If they had to get rid of anything they can lose the lancer and zent experimental stuff. I'd rather keep the vf-4 and ghost. I'd rather have everything so please stop giving Kevin's mini spy's ideas that they can take back to their lord and savior. They'll probably present it as their idea.

I do no mind giving them ideas as long as it can move them forward... being able to give models a pass however I would not agree to.

They have the capability to build these models, it just may not be the same way as wave 2 due to "reasons".
But because of some type of financial crisis, the feet are truly dragging.

 warboss wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
So, it's likely that sometime between April and June we'll get another Simbieda epic ramble about how much he loves everyone and wants to restart the discussion on a good, healthy, and forgiving note.

Will we be getting a new thread at that point?

I proposed a third thread a few weeks ago when the "relaunch" occurs as this one is getting long in the tooth but that relaunch, like reward completion, keeps moving further off in the distance. The relaunch/love fest apology will likely be the two slices of bread on the massive gak sandwich that tells us the next problem that totally isn't their fault but we valued backers have to pay the price. The only thing that remains to be seen is exactly what combination of one to all of the following it will contain:

1) We're shipping to multipe waves to stores first for months before any backers get their stuff (ala the AVP kickstarter)

2) We're just flat out not making certain models and you'll just have to deal with it; if you're lucky we'll give you a choice on crap you don't want more of (ala the HG kickstarter)

3) We're delaying the completion officially to 2017 (ala the... well.. this Robotech kickstarter)

4) China/Ninja Division/Geese/Harmony Gold supposedly screwed us over and we're just going to give you nothing while staying silent for years (ala the Ice Age Mammals kickstarter)

5) Screw this... we're going out of business and legally absolving us from your rewards (ala the Defiance Games kickstarter)

I'm curious how many bad habits this one kickstarter can accrue.

well some interesting points of fact on your points

#1 that would violate their backers first pledge, but on the other hand all those who voted yes on the GenCon vote gave up their rights to being first, and considering PB declared all those who do not vote gave approval too, that removes them from the pledge too, so only those who expressly did not give PB permission would have to have their product delivered first if at all.

#2 that will still violate the terms of the agreement unless those who have purchased said items agree to a refund or replacement, or PB refunds for said items.

#3 thats already a given.

#4 the first part is wrong Kevin screwed them (look at all the other licenses HG has given out that don't even have half these problems), they can stay silent, but they will eventually have to account for things, it all depends on how long the bulk of the backers will wait.

#5 doubt Kevin wants to do that since he would lose his beloved Rifts, and still be held liable to kickstarter backers as is being shown on the All Quiet on the Martian Front where the backers are considered creditors, so after the company is dissolved by the courts the backers would get some form of retribution (unlike what some have said) and they would not be at the tail end of the disbursement of any funds (like others have said), but an equal creditor like all other companies and banks PB owes money too.

if PB declares Bankruptcy all property of the company and/or anything tied to the company will be auctioned off by court sanctioned order and the funds from said auction divided amongst the creditors.

Of course these options would 'violate agreements/pledges', we're talking about hypothetical options for going off the plotted course to make things work with reduced or minimal resources, if they were so inclined (they're not, obviously).

How important those things (getting things before retail, getting every single model, etc) were to people would be a backer to backer choice. Obviously some of the 5k+ would love any choice they made, some would hate it, many would be apathetic, etc.

Whatever people thought personally, it's an interesting (purely academic) pondering to think how they might do or have done things differently.

Declaring things like "people who voted one way gave up rights" is obnoxious, doubly so on a pondered hypothetical.

Yeah, #5 is not going to happen. PB declaring bankruptcy will bring out all of the claimants, and they will rip Kevin a new one in court. The ensuing legal fees will drive him to personal bankruptcy if he doesn't immediately put PB into receivership. Don't think that there aren't a number of backers who wouldn't enjoy using the legal system as a cudgel to make a well-deserved example of Kevin.

#2 is very likely, as the Pod is totally getting away with changing the deal *and* No Refunds. That is precisely the sort of thing that Kevin likes to see.

The pod iirc is also under the newer tou unlike pb

 Forar wrote:

Declaring things like "people who voted one way gave up rights" is obnoxious, doubly so on a pondered hypothetical.

obnoxious or not its the truth, the voters set precedent, for PB to sell the items before delivering to those backers, and that will be one way PB gets an out and such, but then thats if PB ever comes up with the money to finish wave 2 to which at this point it is looking less and less likely.

What it all comes down to is the backers of this project are a lazy bunch and very apathetic who will let others do the work while they do nothing, and this is what Kevin is counting on, until you backers gather in force and do something, you will get nothing.

It doesn't set gak. They were asked their opinion on one thing, and they gave it. It was a poll, not a suicide pact. Anyone who voted yes may have been overly generous to PB on the matter, but it in no way would count as some sort of legally binding anything, let alone giving up a 'right'.

IF pb wanted to progress in some fashion that required feedback from the community, they would need to obtain it anew. New issue, time has passed, new poll or survey or whatever. Obviously they don't, or if they might they haven't found their hand forced in that direction yet, but as fellow gamers let's try to show a little imagination here.

Can people not have an academic discussion about "What If" scenarios?

And if backers weren't ready to file, they weren't ready to file. Blaming other backers as somehow negligent for not acting how you wanted them to, when you wanted them to, is quite self centered.

Whether the legal tsunami became a legal wading pool, or whatever it was that happened that you'll reference obliquely but not confront directly, that was their choice to make then, and as seen in this thread and the KS comments, more do make every so often.

 Forar wrote:
It doesn't set gak. They were asked their opinion on one thing, and they gave it. It was a poll, not a suicide pact. Anyone who voted yes may have been overly generous to PB on the matter, but it in no way would count as some sort of legally binding anything, let alone giving up a 'right'.

IF pb wanted to progress in some fashion that required feedback from the community, they would need to obtain it anew. New issue, time has passed, new poll or survey or whatever. Obviously they don't, or if they might they haven't found their hand forced in that direction yet, but as fellow gamers let's try to show a little imagination here.

Can people not have an academic discussion about "What If" scenarios?

And if backers weren't ready to file, they weren't ready to file. Blaming other backers as somehow negligent for not acting how you wanted them to, when you wanted them to, is quite self centered.

Whether the legal tsunami became a legal wading pool, or whatever it was that happened that you'll reference obliquely but not confront directly, that was their choice to make then, and as seen in this thread and the KS comments, more do make every so often.

my point is if people are expecting things to be done, they will be waiting awhile, backers have to do something to get something done and do it in force, as to the other point you would be surpirsed what is considered legal precedence.

Asterios wrote:

What it all comes down to is the backers of this project are a lazy bunch and very apathetic who will let others do the work while they do nothing.

What specific avenues do backers have to seek recompense?

 darkminstrel wrote:

Asterios wrote:

What it all comes down to is the backers of this project are a lazy bunch and very apathetic who will let others do the work while they do nothing.

What specific avenues do backers have to seek recompense?

as a single backer, nothing short of a lawsuit, as a mass of backers, filing with the FTC and Michigan AG's office, these are the avenues open to backers.

The Robotech FB group (which I think it run by HG) posted a review of RRT.

It's sort of funny, considering that HG has done next-to-nothing to promote the game, which you would think would be in their best interest.

But perhaps use it as an opportunity to let HG know how happy you are with the handling of this project. Tell them that you think PB is doing a great job and that you are very glad they have delivered so timely and given wonderful communication.

 n815e wrote:
The Robotech FB group (which I think it run by HG) posted a review of RRT.

It's sort of funny, considering that HG has done next-to-nothing to promote the game, which you would think would be in their best interest.

But perhaps use it as an opportunity to let HG know how happy you are with the handling of this project. Tell them that you think PB is doing a great job and that you are very glad they have delivered so timely and given wonderful communication.

Here's the link, as there's quite a few results that pop up for "Robotech".

And yeah, it's a pretty hostile commentary. They don't seem to have PBFB's banhammer, at least for the moment. Majority of posts are what you'd expect, mostly from the usual suspects, but a few new (or at least infrequent) posters are in there.

The review is generally positive, though. But as one of the commenters said, it's strange for Harmony Gold* to promote it, this long after release, given the current hostile environment the project is in. But given what I know about HG and their similarity to PB in just not understanding how to deal with the public (among other flaws), I'm not really surprised.

* It's claiming to be the "Official Robotech Page", but that doesn't seem definitive like it is on some social media sites (ie, Twitter Verified). I think it is, but it wouldn't shock me if it was fan run.

I dunno, I keep being told I should be "happy" with what little we got and that all that money I put in should be worth the price of some of the product being more than a gleam in someone's eye.

Plus, if HG was all that interested, they only have to wander over to this fine discussion here or the even more hair-raising discussions on the kickstarter.

I have copies of my list from the backerkit and the resulting email. Everyone should file those away since you lose those I could see PB saying "what orders?" the two or three years from now...

 Talizvar wrote:
I dunno, I keep being told I should be "happy" with what little we got and that all that money I put in should be worth the price of some of the product being more than a gleam in someone's eye.

Plus, if HG was all that interested, they only have to wander over to this fine discussion here or the even more hair-raising discussions on the kickstarter.

I have copies of my list from the backerkit and the resulting email. Everyone should file those away since you lose those I could see PB saying "what orders?" the two or three years from now...

That's a good idea and thanks. I've screen capped my backerkit order page proving what I ordered in case Palladium is lucky enough that Backerkit goes out of business and takes the info down with them at some point. I'm sure they'd see that as a great boon being "unable" to prove who ordered what so they can't ship anything until they're sure. That sort of "we don't want to short anyone an item so we can't ship anyone anything for years" thinking would follow their current "we can't show everything so we'll show nothing" (lack of) updates.

http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/dust-studios-to-be-at-gama-trade-show-with-ninja-division/

It appears Ninja Division has partnered up with yet another troubled kickstarter IP. First there was Robotech for a year, then AVP for a few months, and now the Dust franchise. I'm really not sure what they're thinking with all those moves. Are they the gaming equivalent of the naive girl who always falls for the bad boy that she knows will treat her like crap no matter how many times it ends badly? I suppose they see Defiance games as the partner/fish that got away...

Ninja Division is a publishing company, like FFG and CMoN. ND publishes Super Dungeon Explore and a variety of other games, so this isn't that much of a surprise.

Paolo needs a publisher and distribution for Dust, like what FFG previously provided and what BF claimed they would provide. Given that he's not moving to PVC for CMoN, ND seems like the "best" fit at the moment. While Warlord Games would have been a "better" fit for their HIPS production capabilities, obviously, it wouldn't work from an IP standpoint due to WG publishing BA as a direct competitor in the 28mm WW2 space.

Given ND's experience with CMoN and Prodos for RK & AvP, respectively, I can assume that ND's relationship with Dust will be at arm's length and strictly contractual.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Given ND's experience with CMoN and Prodos for RK & AvP, respectively, I can assume that ND's relationship with Dust will be at arm's length and strictly contractual.

From what I heard about the Relic Knights issues, they were squarely on ND's feet. As for AVP, they didn't learn their lesson about partnering with questionable companies known for CURRENT ongoing failures... and they ended up backing out after only a few months after the failure predictably to all but them continued. And now they stepped into yet another ongoing mess with Dust. It doesn't matter it's arm length or contractual... so were the deals apparently with AVP and Robotech and they bailed on both (and rightfully so). It's silly they decided to wade into another knee deep pig pen of issues voluntarily.

Relic Knights was published by CMoN, who squelched both SDE and RK in favor of the AQ and WoK lines that they developed in-house specifically to compete with SPM, having already collected the RK KS funds.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Relic Knights was published by CMoN, who squelched both SDE and RK in favor of the AQ and WoK lines that they developed in-house specifically to compete with SPM, having already collected the RK KS funds.

After ND allegedly screwed up the production which led to a year and a half delay IIRC. From what I heard (from an admittedly CMON centric source) is that there was alot of acrimony behind the scenes because of the screw ups. If they did indeed cost CMON both in reputation and money (and I can't recall a CMON involved screw up since McVey and ND), why shouldn't CMON come out with another product to fill that same niche if ND split off taking the original IP with them?

We'll never know which came first on RK, but I'm sure that nobody was happy.

Just as we aren't happy. This week's update is out.

Highlight:

"We are working our collective keisters off on several fronts and making some good progress. The upcoming books are going to be awesome. When I wasn’t writing or coordinating work for a number of upcoming products, Wayne and I were working on convention prep, advertising, approvals, communications with artists and licensors, and exploring a variety of business areas. In short, very busy but feeling like we are getting a heck of a lot done. Read on.:

Any guesses on RRT content?

Yep, just hoping if they do not talk about it, it will go away.

I love folks who can spin their wheels doing nothing of value and believe they are "working their keisters off" - not. I've been stuck with too many of those sob's at my own job. PB has proved time and again they can't change and see nothing wrong with their failure to produce - well, anything.

It is all a matter of perspective, I am sure they have to "work" harder than they ever had before. Since the world is smaller and they have more competition. Plus their efforts look that much less compared to other similar product. Plus they are unable to control their own press so it is hard to say "we are awesome" without it seeming like a joke.
I am sure modern day technology can really be hard on those who have their heads stuck in the 80's.

Yup, less said about wave 2, the snark ratchets up proportionately, in my case anyway.

Heads stuck in the 80s? More like heads stuck up their butts...

The world has moved on, but these game companies rarely change once they get a taste of success. GW radically overhauling with 40k3, WFB6 and AoS is almost unheard of.

I got an actual reply letter from the MI AG! My filing was done just before the end of 2015 and Kevin didn't take it upon himself to respond untill the 2nd of this month.

Was his response the same Cut-n-Paste we've seen in all of his other responses to the BBB and such?

Just saw Miniature Market latest sale, Looks like if a shop marks down Robotech down to half off, it sales OK..

http://www.miniaturemarket.com/ssearch?q=robotech

I got rid of my unopened copy by using it as payment for having an old buddy help me move...

Not filing against Palladium because I feel they will be bankrupt long before it would ever see their day in court.

But I did ask my FLGS owner who is traveling to GAMA this week, if there was a Palladium panel to ask about the

Robotech Kickstarter in hopes of a Mob response..

The sale is nice to see, the heavy weapon pods I might get (6 left!).
What is up with the Spartan/Phalanx Destroids kit?
$24.79 but they have 20+ kits... you would think they would want to price to sell.
I picked up a couple starter sets from $60 to $70 so the pricing makes me feel pretty good so-far.

I really hope there is some kind of response to the question rather than crickets...

 warboss wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Given ND's experience with CMoN and Prodos for RK & AvP, respectively, I can assume that ND's relationship with Dust will be at arm's length and strictly contractual.

From what I heard about the Relic Knights issues, they were squarely on ND's feet. As for AVP, they didn't learn their lesson about partnering with questionable companies known for CURRENT ongoing failures... and they ended up backing out after only a few months after the failure predictably to all but them continued. And now they stepped into yet another ongoing mess with Dust. It doesn't matter it's arm length or contractual... so were the deals apparently with AVP and Robotech and they bailed on both (and rightfully so). It's silly they decided to wade into another knee deep pig pen of issues voluntarily.

ND is still distributing AVP.

http://sodapopminiatures.com/alien-vs-predator

 Alpharius wrote:
Was his response the same Cut-n-Paste we've seen in all of his other responses to the BBB and such?

Pretty much. I'm actually thinking of filing a small claims case vs PB using the retail amount that he's been throwing in our faces. It's three times what I paid for in my entire pledge but he seems to think that those numbers are valid...I'll use them.

Sining wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Given ND's experience with CMoN and Prodos for RK & AvP, respectively, I can assume that ND's relationship with Dust will be at arm's length and strictly contractual.

From what I heard about the Relic Knights issues, they were squarely on ND's feet. As for AVP, they didn't learn their lesson about partnering with questionable companies known for CURRENT ongoing failures... and they ended up backing out after only a few months after the failure predictably to all but them continued. And now they stepped into yet another ongoing mess with Dust. It doesn't matter it's arm length or contractual... so were the deals apparently with AVP and Robotech and they bailed on both (and rightfully so). It's silly they decided to wade into another knee deep pig pen of issues voluntarily.

ND is still distributing AVP.

http://sodapopminiatures.com/alien-vs-predator

and they are definitely not tying up with Dust, beyond sharing a booth (and got enough concerned emails to issue a statement saying so)


Ninja Division


11 March at 23:30 ·
..

First off, thank you to the fans and followers of Ninja Division and Dust for your enthusiastic response to the announcement that DUST Tactics would be presenting with Ninja Division at the upcoming Game Manufacturers Association meeting in Las Vegas. However, as reported, Ninja Division is not in partnership or a publishing relationship with DUST TACTICS at this time, nor have we had any discussions to this point about such a relationship. Due to a misunderstanding, Ninja Division had hoped to share some space at the show with Paolo and team, as lovers of his rich worlds and miniatures.
Thank you to everyone who reached out to us, we are sorry if we have caused any confusion, and look forward to meeting our retail and distribution partners in Las Vegas!