I quit. Even though I love the Robotech franchise I just can't deal with this travesty any longer. I'm going to keep a few of the models to make some dioramas, but I'll sell of the rest. Time to cut my losses and release the stress that is this crap.
I wish you all good luck and hope you get what you're owed. For giggles I'm including the message I sent to PB via the Kickstarter page.
To all involved in the RRT project,
You win.
I give up. I'm selling off the portion of my pledge I received and I'm going to stop monitoring the kickstarter. You have destroyed my love of Robotech with this project and I'm too tired to keep going. If you ever do produce Wave 2 I'd like for it to be delivered, laterally, into Kevin S's sphincter, sans lubrication, so that perhaps he might get a tiny taste of what he's put the backers of this project through. I don't actually have an address for that, but I'm certain you can work it out. Given the way this project has progressed you might need to hire a project manager for that, however.
In summation; feth you guys, all you've created with this project is a steaming pile of rage on top of a steaming pile of offal.
I'm sorry to hear you finally hit the end of your rope, and worse, that their mismanagement has had such a terrible impact on an IP you have passion for, DM.
I refuse to let their bullgak damage my appreciation for the show and novels, but I can absolutely see where you're coming from.
Damned funny all the same, so even if they don't give a feth, thanks for sharing it.
While it's sad to see you done, I can't say I blame you.
Sadly, I think that this is the general response PB are hoping for. That people become so tired of the grind, that they just write it off as a loss. The scale debate numbers, as a percentage of the GenCon debate, showed they're well on their way, as does the lack of commentary both here and on Kickstarter Comments. Since the bannings on their FB, it's not even as if the number of positive posts has increased. The PB Forums generate almost zero discussion. BGG generates even less.
It'll be interesting to see if they follow through on their latest promises for next week, or if that too will be another fizzled meh that breeds the apathy that they seem to want.
Same sentiments: sorry to hear, wish you the best, did you / could you file with FTC and the AG?
I believe darkminstrel is "stagnant life" over on the KSC, based on their most recent posts here and there. And as in the KS Update, he's been banging the FTC/AG/BBB drum almost as hard as you have. So I think that it's a given they've already done that.
Morgan Vening wrote: I believe darkminstrel is "stagnant life" over on the KSC, based on their most recent posts here and there. And as in the KS Update, he's been banging the FTC/AG/BBB drum almost as hard as you have. So I think that it's a given they've already done that.
That was clueless on my part... makes sense in hindsight. Me being all paranoid of not letting them get away without filing got the better of me.
<edit> saying "almost" is very kind... but I think it is untrue, the links posting I feel is a necessity to see any justice come out of this travesty.
I'll save you guys the trouble of opening the update email:
In development. Things are brewing on this front on several different levels. Oh, and please note that we’ll have the SDF-1, the Armored Valkyrie, and all three modes of the YF-4 on display at AdeptiCon. And, of course, we’ll share them online too. The couple of announcements we had secretly hoped to make there will have to wait, as details are yet to be finalized.
So nothing new.
EDIT: To be fair, they are working on a number of other projects. Projects that are more core to their business of RPG, so that is understandable.
Still, it's now end March, any production push would take at least 6 months to realise, so we can kiss 2016 goodbye, I think. Hey ho, 2017.
Talizvar wrote: Looking around, I am seeing much less said about this game, it does appear to be dying rapidly.
AFAIK, its stone, cold, dead already. I have not heard any positive talk about the game for at least a year. No reviews, no AARs, no painting logs. Nothing but the endless complaints and talk of legal action against PB. Even if by some miracle PB does eventually fulfill their promises and produces a Wave 2, IMO the game will never recover from the death blow dealt by their mismanagement, lies and the bottomless rage they generated towards the game.
mdauben wrote: [IMO the game will never recover from the death blow dealt by their mismanagement, lies and the bottomless rage they generated towards the game.
It's really just the lies that killed the game. Fethups, people understand. Constantly lying about fethups creates bottomless rage.
JohnHwangDD wrote: It's really just the lies that killed the game. Fethups, people understand. Constantly lying about fethups creates bottomless rage.
Astute observation.
I think I never wished for a group of people to be out of a job before.
Again, it is less about a temper tantrum of not getting my toys... the lies, taking my money, the entitlement, the paternal monologues... gets my dander right up.
face it, what killed this game was how we the backers, who made this game possible were treated by PB mainly Kevin, since nothing is done without his approval, he treated the backers like garbage, like low-lifes, like scum and he did so knowingly. and probably with a smile on his face saying us ingrates should be blessed he even decided to do the game.
Have there been any pictures of this Armoured Valkyrie? This thread has pretty much killed my interest in the Robotech game unless I see it for £30 on eBay but as luck would have it, I find myself in need of an unseen Crusader for Battletech and my understanding is that the Crusader was basically the Armoured Valkyrie..
Anyway a stealth update came in and they posted pics of a more complete SDF-1. So I guess the counter needs to reset?
The SDF-1 look good from far, but far from good. But that's my bias talking. Anyway:
It's not great. But it is something.
Anyhow it turns out PB didn't turn off directory browsing for their public server, so I found these.. I take it these aren't new pics, but anyone seen them before?
Seen the glaug-eldaire (it's a 3D print in several assembled pieces - see the Feb update from last year for the breakdown, it was originally posted Dec of 2013), but I don't remember seeing the female suits.
I'd commend them on the SDF-1, but it's been almost 3 years since this thing was supposedly "98% done". And of course, the shoulder cannons are split right down the middle (and the left one looks warped at that). In the end, this was one piece I didn't put money up for, and I'm glad I didn't - at best it's a desk toy, and not keen about the detail.
I do wonder, however, how tall it is. From the prior update, I guessed as tall as a valk model - this looks, maybe, 5" tall?
The Glaug Eldare was from Update 122, eleven days earlier, the first time we got an indepth look at a physical item (121 had a low res picture showing a Valk in a battlefoam bag), on literally the last day of the original schedule.
The Monster was shown by Wayne, in typical roundabout fashion, by linking to CritToHit's gallery in Update 136, which will be two years old Tuesday. Because taking your own photos, where you could use lighting, and the like to put the best foot forward, is an alien concept.
The Glaug Eldare was from Update 122, eleven days earlier, the first time we got an indepth look at a physical item (121 had a low res picture showing a Valk in a battlefoam bag), on literally the last day of the original schedule.
The Monster was shown by Wayne, in typical roundabout fashion, by linking to CritToHit's gallery in Update 136, which will be two years old Tuesday. Because taking your own photos, where you could use lighting, and the like to put the best foot forward, is an alien concept.
I notice in the critical hit pictures there's also a Gnerl fighter (prototype). And I know somewhere along the way they've shown the Max in disguise prototype. They had this crap back in March of 2014 and they STILL haven't finished it? Good-freaking-grief.
I am so glad, that i didn´t have pledged for this one.
It not only looks like a pre 80s toy, it is handsculpted the 80s way.
It just looks crooked and cobbled together.
It is nopthing more than a kitbash, and anyone, that says, that this looks cool and awesome would be just satisfied by anything.
I really hope wave 2 isn´t handsculpted as this piece of sh.t
Not to derail the discussion in progress with my extremely-late-to-the-party observations, but I finally got my hands on a RRT Valkyrie (I just needed one for a project) and have been attempting to assemble it. I picked up one of the "con promo" kits Miniatures Market was practically giving away in their last sale (just one sprue with enough parts to make 2 models in one mode and an ad for the game), and holy hell assembly is a nightmare. So many fiddly, tiny pieces that barely fit together.
Please tell me the real kit came with instructions. I'm not exactly inexperienced, but I think I had an easier time putting together my KD Watcher and Lonely Tree without instructions than these.
Also, that SDF-1 looks absolutely hideous, and something tells me it looks even worse from other angles.
JohnHwangDD wrote: If you want instructions for the Valks, you need to go online.
The mono-pose KD kits are generally easy. But tell me, did you build your Phoenix without any instructions?
I got about 2/3 of the way through the little hands before I had to get help from online. I can tell they really learned from the early kits when I got to the lonely tree. There's a daunting number of chains and straps but they all only fit in one place.
Back on topic: I really do like the female suits, but if this print is based on how the parts are expected to be laid out, they appear to have the same problem the Valkyries have: every single part being bisected vertically. Makes the sprues nice and flat, but every piece needs a whole lot of liquid green stuff to make it look decent.
OK, just checking. I built my stuff with just (Bandai & Arii) box art references. Some of the Valk arms needed a little work to fit properly, but nothing I hadn't seen before.
For the FPAs, they look OK, and I don't care that much about the bisected pieces - being round in cross-section, there aren't really any good alternatives at this scale, short of a solid part, which is likely infeasible for injection plastic.
JohnHwangDD wrote: If you want instructions for the Valks, you need to go online.
The mono-pose KD kits are generally easy. But tell me, did you build your Phoenix without any instructions?
I got about 2/3 of the way through the little hands before I had to get help from online. I can tell they really learned from the early kits when I got to the lonely tree. There's a daunting number of chains and straps but they all only fit in one place.
Back on topic: I really do like the female suits, but if this print is based on how the parts are expected to be laid out, they appear to have the same problem the Valkyries have: every single part being bisected vertically. Makes the sprues nice and flat, but every piece needs a whole lot of liquid green stuff to make it look decent.
Look, pal, bisecting every piece vertically is the only way to do these miniatures and preserve the fantastic, almost quantum, detail! Anything else you've seen from another manufacturer, that does not involve vertical bisection, is strictly a figment of your imagination. Or they were crappy miniatures with almost no detail whatsoever.
That SDF-1 looks like it was scratch built from plasticard. It kind of reminds me of some heavy gear models in a way. I hope they have someone go over it with some putty to touch it up.
No, that can't be right. If you don't think it's the best thing ever, then that's because someone other than Kev forgot to wipe all the 'mouth-water' from the model and the lens of the camera before taking the shot!
My issue is, why, if they have these models to take to adepticon, are we having to frakking wait until AFTER adepticon to see them?
Oh wait thats right we dont matter since they already HAVE our money. Better to show it to suckers, i mean customers, they haven't gotten money from first.
Stormonu wrote: Anyone want to take bets on a Friday update with YF-4's? Put me down for "not until Gencon 2017"
If there's not one tonight, I don't think we'll see one until next Friday. PB don't seem to have the technical know-how to do one "on the go", and Adepticon starts tomorrow. Depending on how much they're carting, it may already be too late, but the convention only being 2? hours away might allow for one, though I'm not holding my breath.
I think at the latest, they should be posting an Update Monday, if not Sunday night. But as I said in the first para, I'm really not expecting one until next Friday. Because *Palladi-reasons*. The only faith I currently have in Palladium's running of this project is that they'll fail to reach relatively low expectations. If it were an newcomer that had continued at this low a standard, I'd have made the assumption by now that they just don't want a career in gaming. That it's a company that keeps pushing the "30+ years" thing, continues to be a source of amusement.
jaymz wrote: My issue is, why, if they have these models to take to adepticon, are we having to frakking wait until AFTER adepticon to see them?
Oh wait thats right we dont matter since they already HAVE our money. Better to show it to suckers, i mean customers, they haven't gotten money from first.
I sort of understand that companies like to make 'big reveals' at conventions.
But here's the thing, in this case. Practically nobody that goes there is going to get excited over seeing these.
The people who would actually be interested, who they NEED to be excited over these, are the backers and they should be posting it as an update.
Whelp, it's more than they've shown (aside from the SDF-1) in 13 months, so fair enough, hopefully they can deliver some non-crappy pics in an update soon, followed by a detailed breakdown of where everything else is.
And while I'm wishing for things I won't get, I'd also like a pony.
Forar wrote: Whelp, it's more than they've shown (aside from the SDF-1) in 13 months, so fair enough, hopefully they can deliver some non-crappy pics in an update soon, followed by a detailed breakdown of where everything else is.
And while I'm wishing for things I won't get, I'd also like a pony.
It looks like they finally started using a better printing company for their prints (and I know which based on the green material). I'm going to get a firsthand look tomorrow and I'll try and get some decent non-cellphone pics.
paulson games wrote: It looks like they finally started using a better printing company for their prints (and I know which based on the green material). I'm going to get a firsthand look tomorrow and I'll try and get some decent non-cellphone pics.
That would be helpful, thanks .
Why is this not on the KS Page? Well, Palladium. They've already have our money, so why bother?
"Wave 2. Not this year, looking into other plastic materials for part count reduction. Have done 0 work on resin bases and objective markers Besides computer drawings. The SDF has great detail looks good. They have 1 on sprue also."
Automatically Appended Next Post: Basically PB will use the reduce parts count as an excuse for why it's taking so long to get wave two out. That's there out in fulfilling the KS terms. So get ready for the long haul.
Wow. Another entire year written off, we've gone from a 7 month delivery target to 55 months, and that's with like 25-30 more aspects that need 'proof of life' shown.
I wonder if adding another 9-21 months to the estimate will be enough to spur some more backers to action?
Not that it necessarily should, but some people have expressed being on the fence over the last few months. Adding 3-7 entire quarters is... not good news, to put it mildly.
By the time they get to a point that Wave 2 could be a reality, we'd all probably have cheap enough 3D printers we could self-print those 3D renders that the China factory couldn't seem to use.
On a side note, for all of you guys who said the Robotech minis sucked to build?
A while back, a friend and I had gone in on BattleFront's "Open Fire" Flames of War starter. We finally started building, him the British / Americans, me the Germans. He built some of the models, and I had expressed some skepticism over how badly some of the Shermans came out, with these huge, visible hull gaps running down the length of model. He's an experienced modeler, so it was something of a "WTF?" moment seeing the result. Naturally, I took one of the Shermans to see if I could do any better.
It turns out that the Shermans are very poorly molded and designed. They're simply awful to build, with horrible cut lines and shrink / warp that makes it really hard to get a crisp build out of them. I got a marginally better build out of it. One side closed up pretty good, but there's still a clearly visible gap on the other side.
Still not nearly as good as the Robotech minis, though. Those, built up far cleaner, worst case being micro hairline gaps and misalignment in the bisected parts. Even my Gerwalk / Battloid arms came out OK, because you can't even see how fethed-up the fit started after you work it to fix it.
The Battlefront Shermans? They're like those fething Valkyrie arms all the fething time. If I had to assemble the Brit / American stuff, I'd be fuming.
So the next time you start bitching about how gakky the Robotech minis are, just know that the grass isn't necessarily greener on the other side.
It's worth remembering that the original Open Fire! set was Battlefront's first-ever HIPS kit, and it definitely shows. I believe it was mentioned that they tried to take a traditionally sculpted master and turn it into a sprue and bad things ensued (so PB isn't lying when they say it can be tricky).
Where the narrative diverges from PB is that Battlefront went back and re-did them with proper CAD tooling and their plastic kits ever since have been pretty straight-forward to assemble. The worst I think was, again, their first steps with CAD where the T-34 has some mildly daft attachment points, but the models otherwise assemble fine. They relatively recently re-did Open Fire! with the text "We'll start the war from here!" on the box including the improved models but dropping the mini-rulebook in favor simplified rules.
After figuring out the absolutely ridiculous amount of clamping and filling to assemble the original Shermans though, the new models are vastly superior and worth far more than the rulebook. So yes, it's dumb that they didn't offer to buy back existing stock of the horrid models so that people don't have that awful experience, but at least they were self-aware enough to realize that the quality was not there and go back and fix it.
Anyone want to take odds on PB doing that with...any of their products?
I'd believe that. It's some very bad things there, although the V-1 mega objective is not bad. The PAK-40 is stupidly fragile.
I believe we have the pre-resculpt set, because the Sherman is just awful to build. Really awful. And yeah, the tiny text in the A5 rulebook does no good, although the quickstart A5 rulebook is workable.
If we could straight up swap our "Open Fire" starter for something that doesn't suck to build and has streamlined, rules, that'd be a real treat. But we're more than halfway through the armor build, so it's probably quite a bit too late.
As for the Robotech dumpster fire gakshow, I'd like them to first deliver the Wave 2 stuff before they try to "fix" anything. Indeed, I'm afraid they're trying to preemptively "fix" ND's Wave 2 stuff, which is why it's even later.
____
OK, that is how a Sherman kit should be laid out! Unlike the things that we are building.
Yeah, Battlefront went back to fix a poorly-done product, but the key word in there that PB should be paying attention to is definitely "done"; they're not even to that lofty bar yet.
Still, the original Open Fire Shermans are definitely a good example of things going horribly wrong when the process isn't done right. Had I not bought another later-designed plastic kit at the same time I probably would have given up on the idea of starting into 15mm WW2; as you know the models are just THAT bad. However, that would have then kept me from WW3 which would have been a shame as the M1A1 I just put together nearly fell together. In fact I think I've assembled all but one of their plastic kits and they've all been easy to work with.
So companies CAN make terrible design mistakes and recover, but perhaps not so much the one in this case.
Based on my experience with the BF Sherman being easily the worst HIPS modern kit I've assembled, I plan to support PSC where possible.
I don't believe PB has the cash flow and profits that Battlefront has, and that would make a big difference if PB were halfway competent. Heck, if PB were just competent...
JohnHwangDD wrote: Based on my experience with the BF Sherman being easily the worst HIPS modern kit I've assembled, I plan to support PSC where possible.
I don't believe PB has the cash flow and profits that Battlefront has, and that would make a big difference if PB were halfway competent. Heck, if PB were just competent...
A friend of mine attending Adepticon, who has an eye for model quality, said regarding the new RRT models, " The green models are spectacular. I was really impressed. ". So it seems maybe they HAVE learnt something.
But "hatorz advocate", these are 3D prints (which most people were excited by, back when we were seeing them digitally, and the EO2013 PPP's), and still have to go through layout and molding (we saw what they did to the Phalanx for example). So I wouldn't get that excited over the final product until we see them.
And it also doesn't excuse Palladium's handling of the project, their lengthy silences, or dismissive attitudes. As Cypher mentioned on the previous page, backers can apparently write off 2016. And if someone at PB is willing to write off 8 months, it's a fair bet you can probably write off 16. They stick to unattainable schedules all the time (Heroes of Humanity is still listed as shipping "March 2016" in the latest PBWU). So, making a concession that a release date is unattainable, even that far out, means you should extend it much further. Meaning GenCon 2017 is the probable target date for the relaunch. I wonder what portion of backers/early adopters will still be giving a rat's crap at that point.
Of course, it wouldn't shock me at all if PB produced print runs of some models for sale, well before completion of Wave 2, "backers first" be damned. Maybe that might be a way to rejuvenate interest amongst buyers, but I can see it infuriating backers, even if Wave 1.5 shipping was offered (and like with FFP's Shadows of Brimstone, I don't think PB could afford shipping costs out of pocket). So the question will be, can PB turn around public perception in time. Else, they're just pissing in the wind.
The BF starter Shermans were known to be terribad. As stated, somewhat forgivable as a first attempt, and they had, for later plastics, gotten it more together.
As for the VF-4... In the first place it wasn't what I'm in this for. They just keep missing what their target audience is looking for, even when the target audience had told them. It's just frustrating.Why prioritize on the VF-4 or even the SDF-1 when it's the Supers, Armoured, Zentradi and MAC II that people want to see? It's not even as if the VF-4 has a base model to work off, the Supers and Armoured are the ones that had the base models.
To drive home the point further, DP9 recently posted photos of actual test pops of their starter plastics and they look ok (not great), and at the same time announced that due to corrections needed they will push back deliveries slightly. And basically got a "meh, go ahead, just sort things out and get the crack to us." I can't even imagine that PB would do that, or the roasting they would get.
Adepticon this year looks to have some good miniature gaming showcase, hopefully PB would actually walk around to see what the rest of the world is doing. But frankly my hope for that isolationist, jingoistic bunch is not very high.
While an interesting aside that there is (was?) a minis game with worse figures to build, I don't see how that's really relevant. I mean, sure, it's important to those who want to play that game, but I don't recall anyone sensible drawing a line in the sand about this being the worst set of minis ever released in the history of mankind.
Just that they're bad.
And there are presumably a lot of bad minis out there!
"Man, these tanks were gak to put together" makes me feel empathy for those who did struggle with them, and glad that the company managed to improve things with a further release.
And as noted by Morgan and others, the gakky figures are just part of the puzzle. The silence, the ever expanding delays, the passive aggressive/petulant treatment of backers ('they're mean so we're not showing anything!'), etc, all fit together to illustrate how badly they're screwing themselves and us over.
What I have left sits in the closet in a box, unlikely to be built or played with, but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in them seeing things through, in making good on their promises that were so easily shared when the money was flowing during the campaign and pledge manager periods. And part of that remaining vested interest is in them actually following through. There's been some 'omg the game is dead / no it's not I totally saw someone glance at one of the boxes' discussion over the years, and the emphasis here is on *years*. How many people think that releasing Wave 1 in 2014 and Wave 2 in 2017 or 2018 is anything resembling a winning strategy?
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, I'm not looking for anyone to actually defend the practice, simply to illustrate that these issues are parts of the whole, and that does make it a bit of a shifting series of issues. Okay, fine, maybe they might actually manage to improve the piece counts, but at the cost of taking half a decade to release more models? Would X-Wing have been nearly as popular if FFG took 4 years to release wave 2?
Hearing the reports that they're still working on the piece breakdowns (as their chosen excuse) just raises the obvious question of 'at what cost?' The backers/community already know that the pieces are fiddly to build, so just fething ship something already. Those who hated building wave 1 aren't going to be won back if wave two takes 5 years to arrive, and those that are fine with the figures will eat them up regardless.
It exemplifies how they seem to continually take the wrong lessons from situations. People are mean? No information at all! (note: many were 'mean' or frustrated because of the lack of information). The parts count is a point of contention? Then we must take *years* to try to resolve it, abandoning anything resembling a sensible release schedule to trim off a few pieces! Oh, people want info again? Let's dump 20 pages of crap on them that doesn't actually inform so much as just throw people under the bus and declare ourselves philosopher kings that brought anime to America and then saved it!
It's almost impressive how dedicated they are to misreading, misjudging, and fething things up.
Forar wrote: How many people think that releasing Wave 1 in 2014 and Wave 2 in 2017 or 2018 is anything resembling a winning strategy?
The answer is simple: It isn't.
I can think of no system, barring one, that can sustain a development cycle where successful waves of releases were measured not in weeks or months but in years. Certainly no modern system that I can think of in current circulation has a release schedule that has new stuff arriving half a decade later. At most, a few months, usually because the company is releasing something else, then a product line gets some updates.
The only exception I can think of is Ancients/ Napoleonic gaming, for which it is a niche and one that the core gamers are so into the entire historical period that they are willing to deal with the long cycles.
The thing is, so what if PB did deliver Wave 2? From a game system perspective, RRT is a dead end system. Their first story/ campaign arc is complete -- the Macross Saga items are done, and there's little or no room for sideways expansion there. If PB wanted to keep the RRT line alive, they need to go into the Masters and Invid Invasion, and as far as I know, there has not been anything other than wistful thinking on PB's part on those things.
Given their track record, it'd take another decade for just one of the story arc to complete, and to round off the whole basic story would take what, a full 30 years from 2014? Firstly, I'm going to be retired hopefully, and I really hope I got better things to do than put together fiddly minis. Second, I'm NOT taking bets to see if PB can live that long. The product strategy is simply not in place, and this one, I actually will cheerfully say both PB and ND didn't seem to have thought the whole thing through. Without that in place, the longevity of the game system is totally suspect. Well not suspect, there isn't one.
So all I'm waiting for now is for the physical minis to show up, and then faff off to do some other stuff with my spare time. There's simply no future in this system -- I'm just waiting to collect what's owed to me is all.
The biggest hurdle PB face is that although Wave 2 may have the vaunted reduced parts count, the basic core set is still untouched and as I see it they will not have funds to revisit andcorrect that situation. So what doe sthat mean.
Basically, stop arsing about fiddling with wave 2, just get the plastic crack out to the backers. For better or worse we will just have to eat it up.
Then if they still have the heart and will to do so relaunch RTT but on a smaller scale, by which I mean model count. I would even suggest abandon 1/285 and go to 1/144 or similar and try to get a deal with existing Japanese manufacturers of RT kits to be offered as discounted prices or forming a range of small starter sets - manufacturing sorted in one deal. As for the rules revisit them and add more detail ( ie make them "advanced" wiith true hit locations etc - potentially link up with the rpg rulesets?
Lets face it as it srands RTT is a dead duck, you are not going to get many new takers outside of the KS backers who want to drop their gaming dollars on the starter sets even now at massive discounts. So a new radical approach is needed.
As backers we get what we paid for, PB gets to wash its hands of those "pesky kids" and can go back to the safe cocoon of the PB fanbois community
Which raises the further question of what incentive there is for PB to continue the charade?
Avoid backers pursuing litigation? Get the AG/FTC off their backs? Yeah, but if they can make due with 'progress' in the form of five new prototypes a year they can do this for another half decade without breaking a sweat.
Hey, on that monster, is it my imagination or is one of the barrels drooping, and looks like it's made from a different material?
Overall, this does look like an attempt to shut up AG/BBB complaints, but is more lateral movement than forward, since we know the 3D renders these were made from can't be used by the factory to produce similar HIPS models.
Forar wrote:Which raises the further question of what incentive there is for PB to continue the charade?
My feel is yeah, pretty much. My opinion is that PB really does want to finish off the KS, but it's approaching the work as though it's one of their PB books. Which means plenty of promises and eventually a delivery. Eventually.
The other side of the coin is that they face harsher penalties if they just declare a no-show. The legalities have more or less caught up with fraudulent crowd-funding and I think certain circles are just looking for something to scapegoat. Having a high-profile KS, a niche company that nobody would really miss, and a big sum of money is a big target board. Stringing things along creates a moving target, harder to hit.
Stormonu wrote:Hey, on that monster, is it my imagination or is one of the barrels drooping, and looks like it's made from a different material?
Most likely warpage of the barrel. That's quite normal on resins and plastics -- I've even seen a warped barrel on a GW plastic kit, so it does happen.
Hey, on that monster, is it my imagination or is one of the barrels drooping, and looks like it's made from a different material?
Oh, it's definitely not your imagination. Personally, if I was displaying these, I wouldn't show it as is. I'm not sure if it's warping as Lynx suggests, or if it's just poorly attached at the base of the barrel. Using the line tool in paint, it seems like the barrel itself is straight, from tip to base. And there's a substantial crack just behind the three grooves where the barrel widens.
But there's definitely something for putting your best foot forward. Same with the still horribly bisected Gnerl. If you're going to have these on display, get a real modeller to assemble, fill, and paint, to show the best possible outcome. On a side note, have they showed the open cockpit Miriya before? I don't recall seeing it. I do shudder to think how many parts that'd be though.
Overall, this does look like an attempt to shut up AG/BBB complaints, but is more lateral movement than forward, since we know the 3D renders these were made from can't be used by the factory to produce similar HIPS models.
Yup. And as you suggest, there's no real evidence that this is progress. It's definitely nice to see physical prints of the otherwise unseen mecha (<- Ha! Battletech joke!), but there's nothing to say this isn't just the physical model equivalent of Palladium printing off 4 pages of a 30 page document they've been sitting on for over a year. We've been told that Ninja Division handed over the last of the digital sculpts early last year, or late the year before. Have they been modified since, or is this just PB finally getting around to having them made, in an attempt to "show progress".
As for why they'd go through this charade, Lynx has the right of it. *IF* the information is true that PB not only don't have the funds to complete, but the financial cupboard on that front is literally bare (ie, there's a difference between needing $600K and having $450K, and needing $600K and having $0), then on top of any fines levied, just refunding the backers would bankrupt them. And the cost to complete is significantly less than the cost to refund.
And people will go to extraordinary lengths to keep their jobs, especially jobs they enjoy. Kevin himself doesn't appear to be the kind of man that'd take admitting failure lightly, especially with his legacy at stake. Stringing things along, in hope of a miracle, is probably the best they can hope for at this point, *IF* that's the case. So staving off the wolves is the go-to move. And the simplest means of doing that is showing something that could be construed as "new work".
As for why they'd go through this charade, Lynx has the right of it. *IF* the information is true that PB not only don't have the funds to complete, but the financial cupboard on that front is literally bare (ie, there's a difference between needing $600K and having $450K, and needing $600K and having $0), then on top of any fines levied, just refunding the backers would bankrupt them. And the cost to complete is significantly less than the cost to refund.
Assuming that our assumptions are true -- PB has insufficient funds to pay for Wave 2 (assumption: because they over-committed on Wave 1), what canPB do?
1. The logical "out" is to admit this to the backers and propose either to do the rest as a resin upgrade: Super and Armoured as resin upgrades, MAC as resin, potentially Zentradi stuff still in plastic,
Pros: Things can move on and the KS can deliver, albeit in a different form from what was originally promised. In general, I find Americans to be forgiving when honesty is utilized.
Cons: Let's be honest here, PB will get roasted and sued -- they burnt that goodwill a long time back. And the pre-requisite here is that Kevin will swallow his pride and admit a mistake. Help me out here, I can't even remember a single instance where he admitted to a mistake before.
Probability: Slim to none.
=====
2. The next logical "out" is to wait till sales numbers provide enough money to proceed, or for funding to otherwise appear.
Pros: Well they do have stock and it's just a matter of waiting.. and if PB is going to plow some book money to make the shortfall it might be faster.
Cons: We might have to wait a while. As neutral as we can get, RRT sales are pretty much tanked in the distributor and retail level. People in those chains would be leery of taking on more product. Direct sales might help but... odds are not good.
Probability: Better than slim to none, but still fairly low
Two addendum: The first is, I'm not sure why they won't take out a loan to get things going again. Are things so bad there that no loans are available?
Two.. ah I'll just spin it off as another option.
=====
3. Start another Crowdfunding! Push RRT: Southern Cross or (more likely) RRT: Invid Invasion/ Sentinels. Use the money to get Wave 2 AND the new RRT done!
Pros: Actually RRT: Sentinels does sound interesting...
Cons: ... but nobody is going to fall for that one. The sickening part is that while I do get the sense that Kevin is wary of (official) crowdfunding now, he may still be convinced it's a great idea to proceed on this.
Probability: I hate to say this, but ehh... it does sound like something PB would do.
=====
4. Just keep stalling, until people gives up.
Pros: Effort not too much, not much cost.
Cons: Those BBB and lawyer letters are starting to pile, eventually there's going to be a breach.
Probability: eh, it's already happening.
=====
Overall, it just looks like PB went with 4, but let's be a bit honest here: they are spending way more effort than needed for a stalling tactics. They actually went to all the trouble to get an SDF-1 done up and assembled for display at a con! You and I know they could have just fibbed something easier to get by.
I think PB is just stalling till funds show up. Either through RRT sales, or if/ when they decide to push book funds into this (or a loan). My concern -- and a great sign that the shark has jumped -- is if they go and do another crowd-funding for RRT: Sentinels or Southern Cross. That'd really be the one that torps them good.
Stormonu wrote:Hey, on that monster, is it my imagination or is one of the barrels drooping, and looks like it's made from a different material?
Most likely warpage of the barrel. That's quite normal on resins and plastics -- I've even seen a warped barrel on a GW plastic kit, so it does happen.
Not that normal these days. The material itself is quite stable, but has to be processed correctly. GW having warped barrels is something that I would expect from them these days. It's down to pressurising your converter too much. GW ask their converter how much it'll cost to produce the frames for their latest iteration of SM toy soldiers. Converter says $0.25/shot, GW says too expensive, make it $0.22, maybe gets haggled up to $0.23. Converter can't make enough money at that, so re-optimises the process to speed it up. Process is now on a knife-edge, probably runs OK for an hour or more, but then the cooling water itself gets hot in a closed-loop system. The mould doesn't cool enough, the plastic is still warm when it comes out of the mould, and twists or warps as it's ejected or when it hits the ground.
People complain that their model is damaged, replacements issued, or the line gets cancelled due to poor sales.
The speeds at which plastic can be formed are much better understood these days than in the 80's. [where sink marks and ejector pin marks were much more common, but I can't recall ever getting a twisted or stretched aerial on a mk1 Rhino.
If the converter isn't over-padding the cost in the first place, and knows what they are doing - especially the production staff - then these things are completely removable.
I am not trying to belittle the efforts here at all but I think more thought was put into all these scenarios than what PB is contemplating now I am sure.
Conrad Turner wrote:Not that normal these days. The material itself is quite stable, but has to be processed correctly.
Thanks for the info, it's always good to know a bit more.
Having said that, I used GW as an example as GW tends not to have that particular problem -- most of their stuff comes out fine, but that's also because they are quite smart as to not put long, spindly objects in their sprue. The few times they did, the odds of warping becomes much higher.
Talizvar wrote:I am not trying to belittle the efforts here at all but I think more thought was put into all these scenarios than what PB is contemplating now I am sure.
Heh yeah the irony is there. Thing is, PB isn't totally stupid. They just have a utterly warped perspective. I'm fairly sure they thought about these at some point, the problem is that their perspective is so utterly alien that they don't behave rationally.
Assuming that our assumptions are true -- PB has insufficient funds to pay for Wave 2 (assumption: because they over-committed on Wave 1), what canPB do?
1. The logical "out" is to admit this to the backers and propose either to do the rest as a resin upgrade: Super and Armoured as resin upgrades, MAC as resin, potentially Zentradi stuff still in plastic,
Pros: Things can move on and the KS can deliver, albeit in a different form from what was originally promised. In general, I find Americans to be forgiving when honesty is utilized.
Cons: Let's be honest here, PB will get roasted and sued -- they burnt that goodwill a long time back. And the pre-requisite here is that Kevin will swallow his pride and admit a mistake. Help me out here, I can't even remember a single instance where he admitted to a mistake before.
Probability: Slim to none.
PB blew their chance to be honest a long time ago, if they try to be honest now it will ruin them entirely, what few fan friends they have left will shun them.
2. The next logical "out" is to wait till sales numbers provide enough money to proceed, or for funding to otherwise appear.
Pros: Well they do have stock and it's just a matter of waiting.. and if PB is going to plow some book money to make the shortfall it might be faster.
Cons: We might have to wait a while. As neutral as we can get, RRT sales are pretty much tanked in the distributor and retail level. People in those chains would be leery of taking on more product. Direct sales might help but... odds are not good.
Probability: Better than slim to none, but still fairly low
Two addendum: The first is, I'm not sure why they won't take out a loan to get things going again. Are things so bad there that no loans are available?
Two.. ah I'll just spin it off as another option.
PB has nothing set aside and any sales they have are barely keeping the company afloat, the fact they are even reducing their presence at conventions is testament to that, pretty soon PB will be filing for Bankruptcy protection, sadly they will not get as much as they hope to get, as to a loan, they are trying to get loans from people, banks will not touch them due to lack of collateral.
3. Start another Crowdfunding! Push RRT: Southern Cross or (more likely) RRT: Invid Invasion/ Sentinels. Use the money to get Wave 2 AND the new RRT done!
Pros: Actually RRT: Sentinels does sound interesting...
Cons: ... but nobody is going to fall for that one. The sickening part is that while I do get the sense that Kevin is wary of (official) crowdfunding now, he may still be convinced it's a great idea to proceed on this.
Probability: I hate to say this, but ehh... it does sound like something PB would do.
all PB will get from another round of crowdfunding is more headaches and a whole slew of people warning others away.
Overall, it just looks like PB went with 4, but let's be a bit honest here: they are spending way more effort than needed for a stalling tactics. They actually went to all the trouble to get an SDF-1 done up and assembled for display at a con! You and I know they could have just fibbed something easier to get by.
I think PB is just stalling till funds show up. Either through RRT sales, or if/ when they decide to push book funds into this (or a loan). My concern -- and a great sign that the shark has jumped -- is if they go and do another crowd-funding for RRT: Sentinels or Southern Cross. That'd really be the one that torps them good.
PB is hoping to get funds to keep their lights on.
JohnHwangDD wrote: It turns out that the Shermans are very poorly molded and designed. They're simply awful to build, with horrible cut lines and shrink / warp that makes it really hard to get a crisp build out of them. I got a marginally better build out of it. One side closed up pretty good, but there's still a clearly visible gap on the other side.
I'm surprised to hear that. I've never put together any of the BF plastic Shermans, but the plastic Panthers and StuGs I've got all went together perfectly. No gaps or molding issues.
JohnHwangDD wrote: It turns out that the Shermans are very poorly molded and designed. They're simply awful to build, with horrible cut lines and shrink / warp that makes it really hard to get a crisp build out of them. I got a marginally better build out of it. One side closed up pretty good, but there's still a clearly visible gap on the other side.
I'm surprised to hear that. I've never put together any of the BF plastic Shermans, but the plastic Panthers and StuGs I've got all went together perfectly. No gaps or molding issues.
It was specifically the ones in the original Open Fire! set which make Palladium look like the paragons of plastic engineering. The new ones are excellent kits, though PSC is definitely a viable option for those who prefer them. However, other than pointing out that competition is better for consumers than exclusive licenses held by disinterested companies, there's not much relevance to the topic at hand here.
One interesting on-topic thing is "who has the legitimate rights to miniatures games?" I know that PB had to market this as an outgrowth of the RPG because that's what their license allows. Is that because a "real" miniatures game might conflict with another license held by another company? If so, does anyone think they might be interested in PB potentially poisoning the well for any future product this hypothetical company might develop? Doubt it's a viable avenue to be pursued, since this hypothetical company is keeping an extremely low profile, but the value of their rights is being damaged so perhaps they would seek redress with Harmony Gold, which in turn makes them get off the sofa to slap PB into actually doing something?
JohnHwangDD wrote: It turns out that the Shermans are very poorly molded and designed. They're simply awful to build, with horrible cut lines and shrink / warp that makes it really hard to get a crisp build out of them. I got a marginally better build out of it. One side closed up pretty good, but there's still a clearly visible gap on the other side.
I'm surprised to hear that. I've never put together any of the BF plastic Shermans, but the plastic Panthers and StuGs I've got all went together perfectly. No gaps or molding issues.
As above, the current set is probably on par with a 70s Airfix kit, so there shouldn't be any issues. Same with any of their newer stuff. Still, I'll prefer PSC for armor.
However, other than pointing out that competition is better for consumers than exclusive licenses held by disinterested companies, there's not much relevance to the topic at hand here.
One interesting on-topic thing is "who has the legitimate rights to miniatures games?"
Exactly.
My point in sharing was simply that that model was worse to build than Palladium's Valks, which have issues with the arms going into the body, not that competition is good and licensing is bad.
I assume that the RPG tie is required because someone holds the scale models license, separate from the RPG gaming license.
Krinsath wrote: One interesting on-topic thing is "who has the legitimate rights to miniatures games?" I know that PB had to market this as an outgrowth of the RPG because that's what their license allows. Is that because a "real" miniatures game might conflict with another license held by another company? If so, does anyone think they might be interested in PB potentially poisoning the well for any future product this hypothetical company might develop? Doubt it's a viable avenue to be pursued, since this hypothetical company is keeping an extremely low profile, but the value of their rights is being damaged so perhaps they would seek redress with Harmony Gold, which in turn makes them get off the sofa to slap PB into actually doing something?
I don't believe there is such a company.
Personally, Occam's Razor would indicate that the reason PB tied this in with their existing RPG licence was to save them the costs of acquiring another licence. Not because someone else already had the licence and was doing nothing about it. Although I could also see HG allowing PB to make this 'extension' to their existing product to get another company off their feet about doing a proper miniatures game [and probably doing a better job than PB - which may make HG sit up and take notice].
However, on the premise that there is such a company, they ought to be mad as all heck right about now. In the time PB have been "working really hard, honestly, guys" company 'B' will have had the time to have developed better models, better rules, and probably have already solved the scale equation. Maybe they will even drop a bombshell and have a full range of product in the stores in time for Christmas [beating PB by several months or more.] This would of course have been from a standing start compared to PB's running start but falling over their own feet every step of the way. It's just unfortunate at this time that everyone but PB have realised that PB have been going to the toilet in that pool for years.
Krinsath wrote: One interesting on-topic thing is "who has the legitimate rights to miniatures games?" I know that PB had to market this as an outgrowth of the RPG because that's what their license allows. Is that because a "real" miniatures game might conflict with another license held by another company?
I don't believe there is such a company.
However, on the premise that there is such a company, they ought to be mad as all heck right about now.
If there were such a company, they didn't do jack gak before the RRTKS, so feth those guys. If they had announced mid-KS that they would be launching a scale range of 1/100 HIPS Macross models, I probably woudn't have split in on the RRTKS. Their inaction is their fault.
Krinsath wrote: One interesting on-topic thing is "who has the legitimate rights to miniatures games?" I know that PB had to market this as an outgrowth of the RPG because that's what their license allows. Is that because a "real" miniatures game might conflict with another license held by another company?
I don't believe there is such a company.
However, on the premise that there is such a company, they ought to be mad as all heck right about now.
If there were such a company, they didn't do jack gak before the RRTKS, so feth those guys. If they had announced mid-KS that they would be launching a scale range of 1/100 HIPS Macross models, I probably woudn't have split in on the RRTKS. Their inaction is their fault.
there is no Company, this all stems from a court order which does not allow HG to issue any more licenses (in other words they are stuck with the licenses they currently have and can issue no others), they have a license for RPG so they can still do RPG whether PB sticks with it or not, if HG issues a license for a miniature game which they did not have, they would revoke all rights to anything dealing with the mecha from Robotech Macross, furthermore there is currently an issue in regards to the Robotech movie, Sony wanted to do the story, but the mecha they want to use, HG does not have the rights too, but HG is still persisting on a right of distribution and such of all things Macross in the US, which the other companies are not giving up so Sony will not be making a Robotech movie anytime soon, all they paid for was the option from HG.
furthermore on IP rights in accordance with Japanese Law the rights HG is toting are going to expire and the whole mess will become public domain, except for names and such, but the mecha designs will be.
PB has but a short while to get wave 2 out or they will never bother with the game since the mecha will show up everywhere.
its hard to say, but the thing of it is, anybody could sue HG now for the rights to do mecha from the original show and win, but no one will cause it costs money. right now the only thing protected by copyright and or trademark is the story and the names and places and such from the story. as to images and even mecha designs HG has already lost some cases even, but like I said people and or companies are not bothering since it will cost them money to fight it in court on a property that is not as big as most would think.
@JohnHwangDD - That's funny. As much as we've clashed over assembling the PB models, I have the Open Fire set and don't recall having much issues with the shermans (at least, not as much as I was fuming at the PB models). I remember the pac guns giving me some concern, but not the shermans. And I know the set I got was before the revised one.
Krinsath wrote: One interesting on-topic thing is "who has the legitimate rights to miniatures games?" I know that PB had to market this as an outgrowth of the RPG because that's what their license allows. Is that because a "real" miniatures game might conflict with another license held by another company?
I don't believe there is such a company.
However, on the premise that there is such a company, they ought to be mad as all heck right about now.
If there were such a company, they didn't do jack gak before the RRTKS, so feth those guys. If they had announced mid-KS that they would be launching a scale range of 1/100 HIPS Macross models, I probably woudn't have split in on the RRTKS. Their inaction is their fault.
I don't think there is any company with such a license.
I think Yune heard "game" and sent the two guys who brought it to them over to Palladium.
That fits in with what we know.
No, I approached HG on my own and was told that I needed to go through PB as they had the rpg license.
Whatever Tom was doing was his own separate thing, initially he was trying to do stuff with 1/100 scale models then later wanted to partner up and use my minis which I never agreed to. He was never involved with my project or the creation of the miniatures I was working on. He did a really irritating job of trying to inject himself into things where he was never asked to involved, they kept him on with RRT because we was willing to do volunteer work for free.
I had to ask him to take down my photos that he'd re-posted on his blog as he was using them to make it appear as though he was a partner or co-developer in my effort, which he had never had any association with. He also tried to wedge himself into discussions with PB which there was no need, the only people I needed to deal with at that time was Kevin and Tommy Yune. Given that Kevin had no experience with any sort of miniature design it really muddied the waters and unfortunately they relied on a lot of bad info that didn't come from me. It seems that Kevin prefers to side with advice from his inner circle despite what people with tangible experience tell him. As a result he gets pulled in too many directions at once and that's probably why the project is in it's current state.
Tom may have been involved with introducing ND to Palladium? (I don't know for certain as that was several months after I'd dealt with PB and been cut loose)
*Sigh*, the "what might have been" makes me wonder. Do you still have those photos anywhere? I'm curious about what your take would have looked like.
If the rights ever came up in the future Paulson, would you be willing to look at doing minis or has this whole KS tainted any desire to ever deal with this IP/KS/backers?
These are buried deep in the old thread, I originally started on this stuff in 2010 so it's been a while. These were some of the prototypes that I presented to PB & HG all the way back at the beginning. They aren't perfect as there's some minor tweaks that needed to be made before they would have seen production but they were pretty close to finished. I sculpted each of the destroids, Sean did the Zentraedi. I also completed 3d sculpts for the Veritechs but I didn't get them printed at the time I left the project. I'm not going to repost all of the pics but here's a few.
The painting and color photos were done by Winterdyne Studios (and totally kick butt).
Spoiler:
As for working with PB in the future? No way in hell. Kevin completely burned that bridge last time we spoke when he insulted my integrity and business. This KS crashing and burning is all on him and he's earned every bit of it.
paulson games wrote: Tom may have been involved with introducing ND to Palladium? (I don't know for certain as that was several months after I'd dealt with PB and been cut loose)
Thanks, Paulson - Warhammer/Tomahawk is my favorite destroid, BTW.
As for doing the figures, I appreicate and understand the response, but I meant sepearate and without PB's involvement - i.e., they lost the game rights and it was up for grabs. Though it sounds like this IP is burnt enough it's not worth approaching even in that case.
Even if PB somehow lost their license I think it'll remain toxic. People have always disliked how HG controlled the IP, then PB's efforts haven't endeared themselves with anyone and just made things much worse. Even if it were to get new ownership (which is near impossible) I don't think this one can ever be restored to what people had hoped it'd be. Because of all the difficulties and mismanagement I think the game will continue to flounder around on discount shelves for a while and never take flight beyond the initial offerings of the KS. The later generations simply don't have the sales strength to outshine the Macross arc, there's certainly fans that like them but if the Macross arc can't make it as a successful product the later arc's won't stand a chance.
IMO the well has been tainted far too deeply, nobody wants to deal with the legal mess, it's a stale and aging IP. PB has managed to scorch what little remaining good will there was with the fans. Robotech's potential was entirely fueled by nostalgia which was already wearing thin and anything that remained was crushed by the attitude of PB. There are so many better options and properties to pursue, anything made since the turn of the century would be far more relevant with the gaming crowd. The greater portion of the gaming market wasn't even born until 15-20 years after Robotech aired, they don't connect with it and the way HG/PB treats the fan base only serves to further erode an already limited pool of buyers.
Hey guys just curious if anyone here might have a spare Gencon Miriya or Max they would be willing to sell or know where I could find one, thanks. I can't find any for sale anywhere!
The update dropped into my mailbox earlier, I thought someone else would have added it here.
Basically Kevin didn't go to Adepticon, was sick. Relevant KS update as follows:
We’re happy that so many of you came to our booth at AdeptiCon and saw the SDF-1, Armored Valkyrie and YF-4 pieces we had on display. As Wayne may have mentioned to some of you, we recently got some tooling quotes for Wave Two, and we’re discussing piece breakdown with the manufacturer. More to come as things continue to percolate on this front on several different levels.
....
Yes, that was a stupid long time for "tooling quotes" to be gotten. We're not going to see stuff in 2016 even at the most positive, I think.
Yeah, 2016 is right out. According to someone who attended Adepticon, Chuck himself admitted wave 2 wouldn't be shipping this year (which yes most of us are completely unsurprised to hear, it's more surprising that someone associated with PB even said it aloud).
Far as I know there wasn't an RRT tournament at the convention, just NMI running demos.
Jefffar wrote: Wave 2 not coming this year doesn't mean they aren't trying the relaunch this year.
But it does shoot any effort to relaunch in the foot.
So they get to pick from excessive tardiness or rampant stupidity. Yay for options!
I'd still like to see a single set of sprue layouts before I'll concede the first half (at least) of 2017 as a write off too. Because as much as they may not want to admit it, the 10 months from start of PPP to starting delivery was them busting their asses and prioritizing RRT over pretty much everything. Now, I can't see them prioritizing RRT over anything. And if they miss GC2017, making two straight years without anything new (no, promo figs don't count), then what's the point? I can't imagine sales of the existing product SKU's are doing gangbusters. That's just not the way the hobby works.
Anyway, my bet's on excessive tardiness. While I can see them being silly enough to relaunch with nothing new to add, I feel betting on inertia (and the first seven words on Newton's First Law) is the safer bet. Anyone willing to wager an internet cookie the other way?
I don't think a relaunch this year would work without wave two. If Kevy thinks using what little KS funds are left to make more limited metal miniatures will save rrt, then he's wrong and is really out of touch. If he does try this year it'll be a wonk, wonk event. No one will care.
Cypher-xv wrote: I don't think a relaunch this year would work without wave two. If Kevy thinks using what little KS funds are left to make more limited metal miniatures will save rrt, then he's wrong and is really out of touch. If he does try this year it'll be a wonk, wonk event. No one will care.
Well, he'd need to be very careful IMO in using Kickstarter funds for a relaunch. Because spending money on stuff that is not for the completion of the Kickstarter project, but in support of the retail aspect of the product, would be bordering on misuse of funds. Unless there's some compelling argument to the contrary, this could be problematic.
Joyboozer wrote: It wouldn't matter what he used the funds on, Kickstarter don't care.
That does seem to be the case. But they're not the only authority on the matter. And while it doesn't seem like those other agencies seem to give a rat's posterior at this point, that might not always be the case.
I am curious if there'll be a tipping point for Kickstarter though. While they may feel that they need to protect creators to keep the creators coming in/back, it's hard to regain confidence from the public when you lose it. I know more than a few people who have soured off Kickstarter (and to a lesser extent, crowdsourcing in general) because they feel they're not protected. While I still back projects, I've noticed that both the money I spend on a project is significantly less, as is the frequency, and/or it's for established product expanding it's lines (in on Kingdom Builder and Xenoshyft, for example). Sure, KS has the market share cornered at the moment, but complacency at the top is as sure a killer as a serious competitor.
Gamers tend to respond and get excited by product "momentum".
This product line seems to be gathering moss, nothing new to sell at a 'con gets noticed.
I see no "new" fan-base being generated here... or at least nothing worth noting.
Let us assume this is the typical PB project where it WILL get done... just it may take a decade.
It is then a race of rabid fans finding other ways to get their models and for the more casual fan base to lose interest.
Somewhere in the middle are those who give up out of frustration or are wrestling with the: "they have my gosh-darn money!".
We have electronic calendars, set the egg-timer for one year at a time on repeat and rage each time then (week before Gencon seems about right).
This is my temptation because the only punishment Kevin understands is silence or a legal battle: silence is "cheaper".
I am thinking restricting to posting the legal links and the Forar timers is all the KS pages need.
I would check-in here on occasion because you are fun folk.
Talizvar wrote: Gamers tend to respond and get excited by product "momentum".
This product line seems to be gathering moss,
"Gathering moss?" That would suggest something unintended is growing from the dead husk.
More like mummifying in place.
Valid correction.
Let us not forget nothing else is allowed to "grow" due to a useless IP holder preventing Macross ever getting outside of Japan.
Or doing anything with it.
Not looking forward to Anime North, I feel like I need to give Kevin a piece of my mind... he needs it.
Talizvar wrote: Gamers tend to respond and get excited by product "momentum".
This product line seems to be gathering moss,
"Gathering moss?" That would suggest something unintended is growing from the dead husk.
More like mummifying in place.
Valid correction.
Let us not forget nothing else is allowed to "grow" due to a useless IP holder preventing Macross ever getting outside of Japan.
Or doing anything with it.
Not looking forward to Anime North, I feel like I need to give Kevin a piece of my mind... he needs it.
Kevin needs somebody's mind, he's smoked out of his own - but we'd hate to see you waste it.
So, it looks like PB have crapped the bed on timing again.
Adepticon finished a week ago, and no KS Update. And the PBWU is very light on details. "Oh, but everyone is sick!" would be the go to excuse. Except firstly, someone from PB should have put this up early in the week before everyone got sick. And secondly, from the PBWU, "Everyone has been trying to work through it. I have been writing and juggling all kinds of work, Chuck has been continuing to draw, Wayne and Alex are editing away...". So it's not like they're all been bedridden and are not working. And it's not like a real Update would be that difficult. The last one was 10 pictures and 148 words (or almost half the number of words Kevin said about everyone being sick).
On RRT, it's the same usual pablum. That things are percolating, and there's plenty of stuff happening on the business end. They didn't include their standard "But we can't tell you because it's super secret and you'll just have to take our word for it!", but that doesn't stop Kevin from failing to give anything resembling specifics.
In other news, the PBWU also finally removed the timeframe on it's "Schedule of 2016 Releases for the First 6 Months". Because with January 22nd's Update listing 8 non-Rifter products to be completed before mid-year, and them allegedly being on track to finish two of them, it looked kind of silly. And I wouldn't count Palladium out there either. Heroes of Humanity, back in that Jan 22 Update was going to ship in February, so, about 5 weeks from the time of Kevin writing it. It's now second week of April, and we get "April release (Tentative. It might slip into the first week or two of May). In final production.". So, about 5 weeks from the time of Kevin writing it. I think it's entirely likely they'll go 1 for 8, and while less likely, I don't consider it impossible for them to go 0 for 8, and get the coveted goose egg. Cause we all know how KevCo love their geese.
But, what else can we expect from someone who wrote
I have two New Year resolutions: The first is to get myself back into the habit of posting Murmurs from the Megaverse® on a much more regular basis, like a minimum of 2 or 3 a week to keep you guys informed on some of the things going on behind the scenes, our thoughts, plans and murmurings. The other is to get a truck load of product out this year. From Rifts® and Robotech® to Palladium Fantasy® and Splicers®, and more.
Glad to see his commitment to the latter, is as strong as his commitment to the former. For the record, he did two the first week, one the second week, and one more in the next six weeks.
Seriously, I don't know why he bothers with timeframes, schedules or promises. Does he truly believe what he says? Or is he intentionally trying to pull one over on his fanbase? After years, if not decades, of this repetition, I honestly don't know which one is sadder.
Finally, for those people who still give a rat's posterior, apparently the Savage Rifts Kickstarter goes live Tuesday. Or at least the announcement of when it'll go live. Or something. So, what was due around Christmas 2015 from it's initial announcement on April 2015 (9 months!) is still several months at least, away.
Morgan Vening wrote: Finally, for those people who still give a rat's posterior, apparently the Savage Rifts Kickstarter goes live Tuesday. Or at least the announcement of when it'll go live. Or something. So, what was due around Christmas 2015 from it's initial announcement on April 2015 (9 months!) is still several months at least, away.
"I'll buy that for a dollar"
Literally.
Should we be posting the legal links and the "Forar's Outrageous Clock of Doom" (FOCD for short)?
But I am sure PB will not be involved much... ( ).
It IS for RPG's so PB will want to see this through right? right?
Who am I kidding?
This isn't even funny anymore.
I can only imagine the Savage Rifts comment section will be a thing to behold.
Note: I am NOT advocating people joining for a buck just to gak up their comments. I have nothing against Pinnacle, and despite my ongoing ire at PB I have fond memories of the Rifts setting and the adventures my friends and I had, even if we needed to shore up the rules across page after page of errata.
But this long with this many geeks and this much frustration? I can only imagine a dumpster fire brewing. Even if PB have little to say or do with the campaign or product aside from providing the source material, after watching Robotech Academy crash and burn, I can only imagine there'll be some who decide that getting their voice heard at any cost is worth 'contributing' to the backer and funding count (even if they pull both by the end).
Again, I'm seriously not advocating anything, but one would have to be blind to overlook the potential gakstorm that could easily crop up here. You don't alienate potentially thousands of fans and not see blowback here and there. Doubly and triply so given that they don't seem to have any interest in providing substantial information on PB's own KS, and have undergone an effort to cleanse their FB page of the unbelievers.
Basically I foresee potential for Pinnacle to get caught in the crossfire, despite not doing anything wrong themselves.
On the other hand, I had to laugh the other day. I backed the "Thunderbirds 1965" KS to produce the first completely new episode of "Thunderbirds" since the original series was shot.
Stretch goals pushed it up to all 3 episodes based on the old vinyl records. Original delivery date was supposed to be in time for last Christmas and there are already backers whining that it's taken too long and nothing is going to be delivered.
I mean, come on, do they really think PB are the ones behind that too? or that they can practically triple the workload and still get it done in the same timeframe?
I know it's kind of a pickle and eggs comparison, but we must be looking at the two ends of the spectrum here. PB still has people defending them after such a long wait - especially during the "Crisis of Silence" TM that us backers went through until recently, and TB1965 have people crying foul after 3 months despite having ensured that the work was much more than originally budgeted for in the delivery date.
I think I need to go have a lie down. My head hurts from chasing the logic from what is ostensibly the same group of people - KS backers.
Albertorius wrote: Pinnacle is actually a very cool company with a long and proven record, and I wish them the best for Savage Rifts.
That said, I can't in good conscience give them money for that project, because I know that a part will go to the Kevster.
problem is it doesn't matter if Pinnacle is ok or not, the factor is Kevin, if he has approval rights and so on then this whole mess could get dragged on for years, (Pinnacle working on page 2 of book wants to change word, sends to Kevin for approval, 8 weeks later Kevin tells them soon and he will be doing some editing of it.)
now those familiar with how Kevin and Palladium work tell me this will not happen with a straight face.
More like Pinnacle writes book in couple of months, sends to Kev for approval, Kev says he has a couple of minor corrections before publication, Kev spends 3 years re-writing entire project at a rate of one word each day, then puts out book with himself as only credited author.
More like Pinnacle writes book in couple of months, sends to Kev for approval, Kev says he has a couple of minor corrections before publication, Kev spends 3 years re-writing entire project at a rate of one word each day, then puts out book with himself as only credited author.
Tell me I'm wrong!
You're wrong; you have overlooked the one day a year he will put into working on the RTTKS, which will stretch it out edits on SR for an additional two years.
Actually, if anything RTT will probably shorten the SR one as it gives them an excuse to ignore producing actual work for this project more regularly.
More like Pinnacle writes book in couple of months, sends to Kev for approval, Kev says he has a couple of minor corrections before publication, Kev spends 3 years re-writing entire project at a rate of one word each day, then puts out book with himself as only credited author.
Tell me I'm wrong!
also another option except Pinnacle is not a writer and probably has lawyers too.
Morgan Vening wrote: Finally, for those people who still give a rat's posterior, apparently the Savage Rifts Kickstarter goes live Tuesday.
Should we be posting the legal links and the "Forar's Outrageous Clock of Doom" (FOCD for short)?
Absolutely not.
We should be singing their praises to the heavens, so that Rifts pulls in the maximum revenue possible.
Then, once it finishes, we should make a fethton of legal noise to compel Palladium to complete Robotech Wave 2.
Then Palladium can take the Rifts money to finish Robotech, just like the took Robotech money to finish Rifts.
If you want your gak, help Palladium kick that can down the road.
____
ETA - I am seriously thinking the best strategy for a Robotech backer is to toss a buck in and White Knight the feth out of things to drown out any negative comments as quickly and loudly as possible. I may well do this to protect my Robotech "investment"
I'd actually buy Savage Worlds Rifts if it came out, but the problem is we know it won't because of Kevin's laziness (I'd be willing to bet the Pinnacle crew's been sitting on a finished manuscript since August, waiting for Kev to give it the OK to go, and sadly if he ever does look, he'll rewrite into crap).
The only way it will ever get published is if Pinnacle pulls a "Radar" from M*A*S*H, with big Kev being Col. Blake being handed the paperwork to sign...
Kevin is not going to waste time and money on something that will not make him money if he gets anything it will going into his RPG books where he is at least making a few cents.
n815e wrote: Does anyone believe that if Kevin became flush with cash that we'd see any movement on RRT? We'd see a lot of rpg books get published.
That's a given. Kevin's love is RPG, so that's natural.
However, he's well aware of heckling so he'd at least put a token to it.
Let's put it this way. Robotech isn't a love for them; it's a source of money that uses existing RPG material and little extra effort from PB. Rifts is where the money is really coming in from, amongst their RPG lines.
The RRT game is first, unfamiliar territory and second, requires much more effort than what PB usually spends on community engagement for a product line, even Rifts. If you think about it, every successful miniatures game plays a constant engagement game with its community, either via direct interactions, or constant product releases. PB is neither inclined or set up to do this.
EDIT: Oh incidentally, Hasegawa is putting out a 1/4000 movie SDF-1.
Forar wrote: I can only imagine the Savage Rifts comment section will be a thing to behold.
Note: I am NOT advocating people joining for a buck just to gak up their comments..
Eh, just link this and the previous PB thread to wherever's appropriate, and let the backers make their own conclusion. Some will think that Palladium won't be an issue, some will.
Has Pinnacle worked on a project with PB before? Some licensors are fine to work with (eg. Ghostbusters), some aren't (eg. AvP).
Oh, there's no fething way I'm interested in backing them substantially. I don't even find time for RPGs I actively like, let alone backing for more of them.
It was purely commentary on the likelihood of the comments being a dumpster fire from irate RRT backers, nothing to do with lamenting a potential participation level.
Well, 1210m/ 4000 = 0.3025m = 30.25 cm... so yeah, that works out to be about a foot.
Do bear in mind this is a plastic kit, so putting it together would/ should be more complex than PB's offering -- I think. Well worth the effort though.
At this point maybe Palladium should consider giving away free starters at conventions as a loss-leader (its a sunk cost anyway and at this point keeping copies of the game warehoused is probably going to cost them more than they will make in profits) or with the purchase of $x of expansion product. Might help inject some new blood into the game and if done properly with an OP effort it could generate enough interest and sales in the game that they could actually raise the money (as well as the motivation) toget out wave 2.
Well, they had a 30% off coupon at Gencon 2015, the first Gencon that the product was available, and have had a few fairly steep discounts to date on their store (though shipping just kills any savings, and CSI has had similar prices with much more reasonable shipping, at least within the US).
Which isn't to disagree with you, more to say that I wouldn't be shocked if this year saw a 40% or 50% sale.
Speaking as someone who works conventions 2-3 times a year, if you pack up a truck full of product and lug it to a convention center within the same city, you really want to sell out as much as possible so there's less to repack and lug home, so I can only imagine that this applies by an order of magnitude more when crossing states with that stuff on a multi-hour journey.
And yes before someone in the US points it out, Michigan to Indianapolis isn't that far a drive (Google Maps claims around 4 hours), that's still a decent hike to lug a pallet or three of gak to have most of it not sell.
Of course we drove from Toronto, and that 8-9 hours (with food stops and bathroom breaks) was a bit more of an adventure. Also, probably part of the reason I'm thinking of flying if I can attend next year.
Well, 1210m/ 4000 = 0.3025m = 30.25 cm... so yeah, that works out to be about a foot.
Do bear in mind this is a plastic kit, so putting it together would/ should be more complex than PB's offering -- I think. Well worth the effort though.
In this case you know what you're getting into, though ^_^
Well, 1210m/ 4000 = 0.3025m = 30.25 cm... so yeah, that works out to be about a foot.
Do bear in mind this is a plastic kit, so putting it together would/ should be more complex than PB's offering -- I think. Well worth the effort though.
In this case you know what you're getting into, though ^_^
This situation makes me sad. I'm mad at PB for this kickstarter, but I really like Pinnacle and SW. I think a SW Rifts would be really great (and far more playable than Kevin's rules), but I'm worried PB will turn it into a clusterfeth whose delivery is dragged out for years.
On the one hand, I'd like to encourage Pinnacle to make a great product. On the other, I want to see PB punished for their lousy treatment of this KS and their overall poor business sense. PB doesn't deserve any more money until they finish this fiasco - and hopefully go out of business doing so.
In the end, I guess I'll just have to watch this from the sidelines, and if it ever actually hits retail, grab a cheap copy - *maybe*. I'm not going to do a $1 on the KS to put in my 2 cents; I'm sure there will be plenty others frothing and ready to do just that, like what happened on the Robotech Academy KS.
But if anybody asks, I'm going to warn them not to invest with anything involving Palladium Books.
Oddly, I think the Savage Worlds system would work well for Rifts and Kevin's "style" of gaming: he does not let his own rules get in the way of HIS story.
I think Kevin will not care one bit of how the rules are applied.
BUT you can guess Pinnacle will not have any say on the layout or what "fluff" is decided on to go into the pared-down books.
Yep, this could take years folks!
You know I am so negative I like it when I am wrong.
I don't follow PEG, but damn, that kind of justification looks familiar. Less "poor victimized us", but just as much "totally not our fault, and it's actually a blessing in disguise!".
That Olympus Inc redo is peculiar. Howver, I have a lot more trust in PEG than PB, haven't been disappointed by the former yet.
I find myself wondering why SW Rifts is going the KS route. I'm also curious what caused it to miss the Christmas deadline - whether it was a Pinnacle or PB thing, and if the date might have slipped because they changed to set up a KS release.
Stormonu wrote: That Olympus Inc redo is peculiar. Howver, I have a lot more trust in PEG than PB, haven't been disappointed by the former yet.
I find myself wondering why SW Rifts is going the KS route. I'm also curious what caused it to miss the Christmas deadline - whether it was a Pinnacle or PB thing, and if the date might have slipped because they changed to set up a KS release.
I will bear your recommendation in mind.
I am beginning to associate RPG publishers with used car salesmen and politicians.
Lots of pics. They look nice. But they're 3D prints, and I'll hold out any enthusiasm until I see something that shows progress (as these could easily have been untouched since ND handed them over early last year/late the year before.
How they show up on sprue, is the real test. And until they can show that, I'm not holding my breath waiting.
And that it's two weeks after the fact, isn't particularly great, but "better than nothing" seems to be a Palladium credo.
But to reiterate, I think they look pretty cool, even if the poop swoop still looks ridiculous.
Well, I have to admit the 3D prints look good, but I'm not holding my breath we'll ever see any progress *beyond* 3D prints of all the models. At best, if they somehow deliver, it'll be somewhere around Gencon 2017?
Hopefully, they've thought ahead about having different heads for the Armored VT and an option for closed shoulder missile pods.
Stormonu wrote: Well, I have to admit the 3D prints look good, but I'm not holding my breath we'll ever see any progress *beyond* 3D prints of all the models. At best, if they somehow deliver, it'll be somewhere around Gencon 2017?
Hopefully, they've thought ahead about having different heads for the Armored VT and an option for closed shoulder missile pods.
Yeah, an option would be nice. Rather than the compulsory "You can have them open or closed, but the second one has to be the other type.".
Given how many pieces the Spartan was, that noone thought "Hey, if we articulate* the missile doors, people will be able to do just the variation they want", is the kind of mindset that is behind the reason why this project is in the shape it's in.
* And if they didn't want to articulate it, ie have a fully varied hinge mechanism, they could have at least had two sets of doors that slotted in, one closed, one open. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see easy options that increase modelling value.
Stormonu wrote: Well, I have to admit the 3D prints look good, but I'm not holding my breath we'll ever see any progress *beyond* 3D prints of all the models. At best, if they somehow deliver, it'll be somewhere around Gencon 2017?
Hopefully, they've thought ahead about having different heads for the Armored VT and an option for closed shoulder missile pods.
Yeah, an option would be nice. Rather than the compulsory "You can have them open or closed, but the second one has to be the other type.".
Given how many pieces the Spartan was, that noone thought "Hey, if we articulate* the missile doors, people will be able to do just the variation they want", is the kind of mindset that is behind the reason why this project is in the shape it's in.
* And if they didn't want to articulate it, ie have a fully varied hinge mechanism, they could have at least had two sets of doors that slotted in, one closed, one open. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see easy options that increase modelling value.
And it doesn't take a brain scientist to work out you can put a circular recess in the sides and corresponding circles at the hinge points of the doors so people can glue them in at whatever angle they choose.
However, that goes against what people have been screaming about ever since they got their hands on the first models - reducing the parts count. PB heard, and they're doing their very best to do that.
On the other hand, it should be impossible to close those doors. Given how thick they are, if you close them, they'll crush the warheads of those missiles and blow your own arms off with the detonations.
No, if you look at their comments, they call out Rick by name. It's someone else... Cypher perhaps? Pretty sure it's another Dakka'ite, or at least someone I've seen on a variety of forums.
Well, 3D prints just proves they have 3D models that can be printed.
We kinda need all the other stuff done too or we wait since PB would not pay for a 2nd,3rd or 4th shipment.
I wonder, they could just throw the 3d models on shapeways and say they are available to backers and "whoops sorry" we cannot make production dies...
There is just no knowing of what PB will spit out at some point or at what time they will do so.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmmm, only some 275 comments on my end on Kickstarter.
I must be slipping.
Step it up Talizvar! You and Forar have to keep up Canada's rep online; a grave and solemn responsibility.
And yeah, "tooling quotes" is (not surprisingly) vague. Are these "order of magnitude" quotes wherein it's still prospective or do they actually have parts breakdown and the quotes are for the project directly?
In case any of you were waiting with bated breath for the latest PB updates, basically the latest email is a rehash of the photo update in KS. So no other info.
He was so devastated by PB's bungling that he never backed another project...
Holy cow, 3,000 comments on Robotech...
Isn't that Rick? Lots of Dakka quotes in the comments at least so, Hi Person-Who-Is-Probably-Who-Forar-Says-Isn't-Rick!
that isn't me, i'm the guy Forar said who is me, also i'm the guy who mentioned this isn't the first time or even first month or year PB has told us they are talking to the die cutters, so its amazing how many sheeples believe PB like what they said is new.
Asterios wrote: ...this isn't the first time or even first month or year PB has told us they are talking to the die cutters, so its amazing how many sheeples believe PB like what they said is new.
I am kinda at the stage to say "does it matter? really?".
Unless the AG and FTC is keeping track of the meaningful updates, it has little relevance.
"Sheeples"? After a couple years wait there is no adequate name for the various stages of denial we are all in.
I wanted to clear up a little confusion: Fabled Environments is the name of the company publishing Olympus, Inc. They have a license from Pinnacle to create official licensed material for Savage Worlds. Like all our licensees who request it, we boosted the signal on their crowdfunding project by sharing it on our news page. Fabled Environments has a great history with 3 funded and fulfilled Kickstarters prior to Olympus Inc, so I hope you'll all check it out and consider supporting them.
I also figured I'd give you a headsup on how we're coming with Savage RIFTS®. To sum up what I originally said here in our forums:
Palladium has been great to work with on the RIFTS® for Savage Worlds project. Evil Beagle's pre-existing relationship with them got us off to a great start.
At this point the books are in final editing and layout. The text for the books—the hard part of the approval process—has already been approved.
Based on prior experience we don't anticipate any delays before the books go to press, other than the usual errata we try to catch and fix before the final print versions are done.
This isn't our first rodeo when it comes to licensed products. I encourage new folks to check out our RPGs for The Sixth Gun, Lankhmar, Space 1889, Solomon Kane, and Pirates of the Spanish Main for a "resume" of sorts, and we have licenses for Flash Gordon, The Goon, The Fear Agent, and Motobushido for Savage Worlds, which are in various stages of production. Like Palladium, we own the IP for a large setting (Deadlands), going strong for 20 years, which has been licensed to other companies including Alderac Entertainment Group, Visionary Comics, and <redacted video game and movie and tv producers>.
We can't wait to show you more about Savage RIFTS®--but please try to be patient. Those who back the Kickstarter will have their PDFs by June!
I won't be able to pop into Dakka Dakka often, so if you have any other concerns, feel free to email me at PEGJodi@gmail.com.
I wanted to clear up a little confusion: Fabled Environments is the name of the company publishing Olympus, Inc. They have a license from Pinnacle to create official licensed material for Savage Worlds. Like all our licensees who request it, we boosted the signal on their crowdfunding project by sharing it on our news page. Fabled Environments has a great history with 3 funded and fulfilled Kickstarters prior to Olympus Inc, so I hope you'll all check it out and consider supporting them.
I also figured I'd give you a headsup on how we're coming with Savage RIFTS®. To sum up what I originally said here in our forums:
Palladium has been great to work with on the RIFTS® for Savage Worlds project. Evil Beagle's pre-existing relationship with them got us off to a great start.
At this point the books are in final editing and layout. The text for the books—the hard part of the approval process—has already been approved.
Based on prior experience we don't anticipate any delays before the books go to press, other than the usual errata we try to catch and fix before the final print versions are done.
This isn't our first rodeo when it comes to licensed products. I encourage new folks to check out our RPGs for The Sixth Gun, Lankhmar, Space 1889, Solomon Kane, and Pirates of the Spanish Main for a "resume" of sorts, and we have licenses for Flash Gordon, The Goon, The Fear Agent, and Motobushido for Savage Worlds, which are in various stages of production. Like Palladium, we own the IP for a large setting (Deadlands), going strong for 20 years, which has been licensed to other companies including Alderac Entertainment Group, Visionary Comics, and <redacted video game and movie and tv producers>.
We can't wait to show you more about Savage RIFTS®--but please try to be patient. Those who back the Kickstarter will have their PDFs by June!
I won't be able to pop into Dakka Dakka often, so if you have any other concerns, feel free to email me at PEGJodi@gmail.com.
welcome Jodi and wish you luck, but like you said this is not your first rodeo when it comes to licensed products, but this is your first rodeo when it comes to working with Kevin Siembieda and Palladium Books, if ND could talk i'm sure they would not have anything nice to say especially since they cut off any and all connection from PB as soon as they could.
I wanted to clear up a little confusion: Fabled Environments is the name of the company publishing Olympus, Inc. They have a license from Pinnacle to create official licensed material for Savage Worlds. Like all our licensees who request it, we boosted the signal on their crowdfunding project by sharing it on our news page. Fabled Environments has a great history with 3 funded and fulfilled Kickstarters prior to Olympus Inc, so I hope you'll all check it out and consider supporting them.
I also figured I'd give you a headsup on how we're coming with Savage RIFTS®. To sum up what I originally said here in our forums:
Palladium has been great to work with on the RIFTS® for Savage Worlds project. Evil Beagle's pre-existing relationship with them got us off to a great start.
At this point the books are in final editing and layout. The text for the books—the hard part of the approval process—has already been approved.
Based on prior experience we don't anticipate any delays before the books go to press, other than the usual errata we try to catch and fix before the final print versions are done.
This isn't our first rodeo when it comes to licensed products. I encourage new folks to check out our RPGs for The Sixth Gun, Lankhmar, Space 1889, Solomon Kane, and Pirates of the Spanish Main for a "resume" of sorts, and we have licenses for Flash Gordon, The Goon, The Fear Agent, and Motobushido for Savage Worlds, which are in various stages of production. Like Palladium, we own the IP for a large setting (Deadlands), going strong for 20 years, which has been licensed to other companies including Alderac Entertainment Group, Visionary Comics, and <redacted video game and movie and tv producers>.
We can't wait to show you more about Savage RIFTS®--but please try to be patient. Those who back the Kickstarter will have their PDFs by June!
I won't be able to pop into Dakka Dakka often, so if you have any other concerns, feel free to email me at PEGJodi@gmail.com.
Best of luck, but unless I see the words " we understand some of you have misgivings about backing a project involving Palladium Books, but don't worry, there is absolutely, 100% no way they have enough input to cause problems or delays" I'm not backing.
I'm actually interested in a Savaged Rifts, but seeing as it will be released not too log after the KS anyway, I'll buy the pdf when it's actually out.
KS and anything related with Kevin Siembieda? No, thank you, never again. No matter what is it or who's doing it.
I'm interested in a Savage Rifts, but I just don't trust a Kickstarter that has any involvement with PB at all. Sadly, I'll be waiting for the retail version - here's to hoping it won't be long and wish PEG the best of luck.
I wanted to clear up a little confusion: Fabled Environments is the name of the company publishing Olympus, Inc. They have a license from Pinnacle to create official licensed material for Savage Worlds. Like all our licensees who request it, we boosted the signal on their crowdfunding project by sharing it on our news page. Fabled Environments has a great history with 3 funded and fulfilled Kickstarters prior to Olympus Inc, so I hope you'll all check it out and consider supporting them.
I also figured I'd give you a headsup on how we're coming with Savage RIFTS®. To sum up what I originally said here in our forums:
Palladium has been great to work with on the RIFTS® for Savage Worlds project. Evil Beagle's pre-existing relationship with them got us off to a great start.
At this point the books are in final editing and layout. The text for the books—the hard part of the approval process—has already been approved.
Based on prior experience we don't anticipate any delays before the books go to press, other than the usual errata we try to catch and fix before the final print versions are done.
This isn't our first rodeo when it comes to licensed products. I encourage new folks to check out our RPGs for The Sixth Gun, Lankhmar, Space 1889, Solomon Kane, and Pirates of the Spanish Main for a "resume" of sorts, and we have licenses for Flash Gordon, The Goon, The Fear Agent, and Motobushido for Savage Worlds, which are in various stages of production. Like Palladium, we own the IP for a large setting (Deadlands), going strong for 20 years, which has been licensed to other companies including Alderac Entertainment Group, Visionary Comics, and <redacted video game and movie and tv producers>.
We can't wait to show you more about Savage RIFTS®--but please try to be patient. Those who back the Kickstarter will have their PDFs by June!
I won't be able to pop into Dakka Dakka often, so if you have any other concerns, feel free to email me at PEGJodi@gmail.com.
I wish this company the best.
Brave or foolish I am uncertain when dealing with PB.
They are "distracting" PB so I am uncertain if I should shake my fist at them: "damn you!" So PB gets money out of this... protest or promote in the forlorn hope RRT sees some of the money?
"Not one cent from me until wave2.", which may be never: it all depends on PB.
Actually was rather cool to drop by here in this den of negativity...
PEG must have received a heads up about how rrt went down and now she's here to get a reading of what they might be in for next week.
PEG-Jodi good luck with your campaign but as long as PB is involved I won't participate. Kevin likes to blame everyone including his own customers for his failings. If that charlatan didn't owe me miniatures I wouldn't bother with them.
Palladium has been great to work with on the RIFTS® for Savage Worlds project. Evil Beagle's pre-existing relationship with them got us off to a great start.
So far.
Based on prior experience we don't anticipate any delays before the books go to press, other than the usual errata we try to catch and fix before the final print versions are done.
Man...this sentence shows a lack of understanding of just what kind of person KS is.
Personally I thonk that launching a KS is all about optimism and being positive and that is obvious from Jodi's message.. Therefore I wish PEG all the luck in their enterprise and just hope they have everything for the initial launch nailed down and signed off by PB - which I really do expect is the case.
I think their problems may come if the KS is successful and they need sign off on new content, that is where Kevin and his obsessive micro management may lead to delays and we know from experience he cannot help himself and has to do it. Then we all also know it will never, never be his fault, when issues and delays arise.
If nothing else it will be a nice diversion from checking on the PB train wreck that is RTT
Yeah, best of luck to PEG, thanks for checking in, but at this point it's on the verge of being academic. Warning them about PB when they've been in touch with PB for, what, a year or more on this, is not going to change active plans.
So the campaign will launch next week and we'll see how it goes, and then they'll either deliver on time (if I might recommend one thing, Jodi, it's a *very* conservative delivery estimate; falling behind on this one will risk being painted with the same brush PB has gotten a shellac'ing with) or not.
I always loved the setting and hated many of the mechanics, so best of luck possibly fixing much of those matters, but if I were to ponder getting in on that it'll probably be at retail.
Perhaps I'll glance at it, back for a buck if the conversation is interesting, but unfortunately the PB taint will keep me from backing substantially.
Yes, the setting made for a good anything goes sandbox.
It would be nice to see a better mechanic make it work.
After our little RRT kickstarter I am ready to condemn by association however.
I wonder what discussions they had around that topic?
Looks like they didn't miss it.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I watched Delta ep. 1 the other day. IMO, the "Magical Girl" Sailor Sentai are just too much.
I mostly agree, so far, even though Macross' tech level would most certainly allow most/all of what's shown with a big enough of a budget. But Walkure left me mostly cold (the final song is at least catchy) and the female MC already annoys me. Worldbuilding looks cool so far, it's nice to see variants of the classic zent mechas, and the second episode warmed me up a tad more to it.
On the one hand, warily optimistic. On the other, I've seen Kawamori's latest attempts at directing.
For me the problem is that the show opens hard with the mech loader, and then goes a full 180 with a magical girl singing team.
Mech-wise, the next-gen VF-1 and Zent stuff looked great. The not-SAAB Drakken does nothing for me - I find it a terrible design. I keep hoping for a Sturmvogel II successor.
So, a game question. Are Zent Artillery critical for a good Zent list at 300 points? How many are too many? What is the optimum load-out for Artillery Pods? Light, heavy, particle Beams? Thoughts?
How about the RDF Destroids the Spartan and the missile pod one?
I only have one box of each and was thinking of picking up some more.
JohnHwangDD wrote: OK, Mike, how does that relate to Robotech / Macross? Maybe move it to Game Design?
We are at a bit of a crossroads on what to do with Robotech as a largely unsupported game.
He offers for free, an alternative rule-set if people wish to play outside of a PB sanctioned IP: sounds like a viable "restart" to me. Those using models as "unseen" for Battletech... as you were.
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Easy E wrote: So, a game question. Are Zent Artillery critical for a good Zent list at 300 points? How many are too many? What is the optimum load-out for Artillery Pods? Light, heavy, particle Beams? Thoughts?
I found good utility putting two "normal" missile pods with scout pod groups.
They are more flexible in mid-range combat.
<edit>Sorry, missed the "critical" question: Two artillery groups could be a bit much but would be great for giggles one time...
I like to spam scout groups with the two artillery pods attached, it is a well rounded selection and you can bring some pods back as they do their job shielding them.
I managed recently to have enough together for a proper artillery group, I am still wrapping my brain around the blast weapons but it gets very ugly for clearing cover AND hitting your target.
I do not see much use for particle beams: the extended distance / cost is not all that compelling... I put some together to try however.
Remember though: every pod that is not a normal one (life is cheap) can get you more command points.
Getting a scout pod in the group is huge for helping out your artillery.
I tend to like to play city combat and it is distressing how many buildings go "poof!!!" (3X MD points for those guys or they are useless cover).
How about the RDF Destroids the Spartan and the missile pod one?
I like the Tomahawks for their long range utility (beware the pod kickline!) plus, they look really cool.
I outfit my Spartans with the gun pods for a bit more punch, speaking of that, they give the hurt a bit more to pod kicklines so good for a more "cramped" game (3X MD for buildings or do not bother!).
Oh, the missile pods are just rude, I see them as a must when I get some Gnerls on the table.
Speaking of that, through just bad luck, I had not got to use the "Rifleman / Defender" much so cannot comment on those guys other than they look swell?
I only have one box of each and was thinking of picking up some more.
I personally tried to get everything I could to fill out a squad choice and allow for add-ons.
The missile pod Phalanx I have a 4 man group and an extra two with magnet/swappable missile pods so I can choose either.
The Zent. pods I did 6 normal pods and 2 blast... I will see if I feel I need more.
The Veritechs are really good to have but my goodness the work involved.
Two squadrons of 4 are 24 models.
Anyway, happy to see the interest, I have enjoyed playing, only Palladium Books themselves detract from it.
JohnHwangDD wrote: @Tal - thanks for clarifying. Technically, it should go in Game Design, but if it's the rare post, eh, no biggie.
I look at it more as a way to try to coerce others into playing a game he likes.
Free samples until he can find out where you live and corner you into a game...
Yeah, I have a few games he can play test for me too! Us Game design Dregs tend to mob up on a guy like zombies at a science convention.
Thanks for the thoughts on the extra units. I have two starter sets and a box of the Spartans/Phalanx and artillery Pods now. I haven;t even cracked them open to try assembling them yet, mostly because I am still working on my All Quiet on the Martian Front stuff. Apparently I like dead games.
Another Question. Did PD release con specific models of Miriya in female Power Arm,or and the Zent IC in Male Power Armor for the Zents?
Easy E wrote: Another Question. Did PD release con specific models of Miriya in female Power Arm,or and the Zent IC in Male Power Armor for the Zents?
They released the female and male power armor as characters, nothing to say they cannot be used as normal troops.
Same with the guardian mode only super Valk.
Some enterprising people made molds of those.
Getting hold of the armored Valk. is proving to be a problem.
A few people are finding ways to complete their collection.
Stormonu wrote: Ok, I've heard this mentioned before and I just want to know if it is what I think it is - but what is a Zhent Kickline and why is it so fearsome?
It's the act of surrounding an enemy model (usually one that's a ranged combat specialist) with battlepods, so that the model is unable to fire, and in the case of RDF, protects the battlepods from being shot at. Doing this also has the advantage of making the Battlepods much more survivable to their targets as well. A Battlepod has 5MDC. A GU-11 (6MDC) or a missile (9MDC) kills one. But if the Destroid is forced into an engagement, their damage potential is more limited than it once was.
Kicks are the only non-conditional close combat attack that Battlepods are capable of (Body Block would move the enemy, Jump Kick requires CP and still adds to the kickline concept, and Stomp is very conditional). And the damage isn't a significant drop. A kick does 3MDC damage, their particle cannons do 4MDC. So for a small drop in offence, you dramatically increase their defence. And with Life is Cheap, you don't even prohibit your Glaug shooting the crap out of the target.
As the movement rules explictily state you can't move through an enemy unit, that means three Battlepods can lock up regular Destroid easily (two if there's other obstacles or models nearby). So the goal is, lock up all the shooty units with Battlepods, and just trade off kicking each other to pieces.
I can't say as to how effective that is (as I've never played), but people who have, do say it seems like the strongest option for Zen vs RDF, as a shooting war seems to HEAVILY favor RDF. Especially as with a 10" move (5 + Leap), their 18" guns start to look even less attractive.
Stormonu wrote: Ok, I've heard this mentioned before and I just want to know if it is what I think it is - but what is a Zhent Kickline and why is it so fearsome?
You kinda stunble into it which is the funny thing.
At some point you will be close enough to a bunch of pods and decide to assault them (they are only pods right?).
Now work out the bonuses for each model you are caught in melee with (3MD base, then being "outnumbered" +1 strike bonus for each friendly model in base to base) .
Pods tend to be rather plentiful.
They have no arms but they can kick.
A Veritech dies like a dog in short order (since they can fly, you could escape but I find the first round of kicking is enough for a smoking wreck).
It's one of those boogeyman that people say happened in ONE game and so things were broken. I've played many more games than most people and I've never had more than a couple instances of Hand to Hand. The reason and rhyme of doing a kickline is for such a tiny and specific case as to be ridiculous. Then again you probably know how quickly people pick up on one thing they see as a flaw and make it a huge issue but then have never played the game themselves but become sudden experts. When that who thing came out I did a lot of head shaking.
Can it happen? Yes. If you are in range to move 3 or more Battlepods into Hand to Hand you are better off not moving and using the Accurate on the main guns and the Focus fire attribute to fire the secondaries for free. You have a better chance of killing the unit outright with no damage in return. The only reason to get into Hand to Hand is if you fear that on the next activation the other player has units nearby that can blow up your pods.
And wouldn't keeping your mecha in close pairs defuse the kick-line considerably by preventing it from surrounding the target with only a trio of battlepods?
I agree with Mike that shooting is superior in most instances.
Close formation makes it all the more tempting to just stand and fire.
At the time I thought melee would be fun and after having some cover shot out from under me I figured "why the heck not?... Ouch!".
I would also say it is not always a sure thing to kill a destroid in one round of fire so melee can mitigate what damage it can do (hth is less than it's shooting in most cases.
Thanks, sounds kinda like I expected. If it's something that rarely, if ever, comes up that's not so bad. From the mentions I'd heard earlier, it had sounded like a common tactic.
However, all the H-t-H moves in RRT (and the RPG) are a head-scratcher. I only recall one scene in Macross where that happens, in the fight with Breetai. I honestly don't remember any H-t-H mecha combat until Mospeada, where a good bit of the Invid had claws and such.
Stormonu wrote: Thanks, sounds kinda like I expected. If it's something that rarely, if ever, comes up that's not so bad. From the mentions I'd heard earlier, it had sounded like a common tactic.
However, all the H-t-H moves in RRT (and the RPG) are a head-scratcher. I only recall one scene in Macross where that happens, in the fight with Breetai. I honestly don't remember any H-t-H mecha combat until Mospeada, where a good bit of the Invid had claws and such.
there are several instances of H-T-H combat in the show, mostly between Destroids and Valkyrie and Zentraedi troopers.
Stormonu wrote: However, all the H-t-H moves in RRT (and the RPG) are a head-scratcher. I only recall one scene in Macross where that happens, in the fight with Breetai. I honestly don't remember any H-t-H mecha combat until Mospeada, where a good bit of the Invid had claws and such.
What about when Isamu and Guld are brawling?
But, yeah, Guld eventually says "feth this" and fething shoots Isamu...
I am still hoping some one in the Maryland area is interested in playing a game. I have both UEDF and zentradei and have yet to play a game due to lack of people interested.
I seem to recall it coming up a couple of times when people reported doing some demo'ing, but that could've been tied at least in part due to the demo areas being smaller than standard.
It's hard to get away from your opponent's brutal kick line if the table itself isn't big enough to get much distance without flying off it.
This also brings up what has been one of many eternal eye rolls of the game; if HtH is so useless, why the feth is so much book and card space dedicated to it? If it's so great, it can become silly if extrapolated too highly like that.
I imagine its utility (or lack thereof) will also come down to other factors like the table itself. If there's sufficient intervening terrain to let the Pod groups get close enough to engage like that, sure, it could be messy. Big open shooting galleries, less so. Opponent has blast missiles? That could get even uglier.
Not to be 'that guy', but Mike if I'm not mistaken haven't most of your 'many games' been against yourself? Let's not pretend that playing both sides is entirely the same thing as two opponents with differing play styles/approaches. If you did find a regular opponent (of equal skill, playing soft against the kids isn't the same thing either), I cheerfully retract.
That said, I don't recall hearing a report of it at the Adepticon tournament or the PB Open House tournament, where prizes were on the line and presumably players would be at least somewhat more inclined to play competitively, if still with good sportsmanship.
So perhaps it really was overly hyped over a 'theorycrafted' concern rather than one that is likely to end up in actual gameplay. One of those considerations that were pondered while we waited for actual info.
There's less of them these days because the community seems to be mostly non-existent and has moved on. "If a game fails in the stores, does it make a sound?" Probably not one that can be heard over the clatter of dice and shuffling of cards from the tables full of X-Wing and Magic players.
That said, I don't recall hearing a report of it at the Adepticon tournament or the PB Open House tournament, where prizes were on the line and presumably players would be at least somewhat more inclined to play competitively, if still with good sportsmanship.
they had prizes? first I heard of that. first I heard of PB even giving out prizes.
That said, I don't recall hearing a report of it at the Adepticon tournament or the PB Open House tournament, where prizes were on the line and presumably players would be at least somewhat more inclined to play competitively, if still with good sportsmanship.
they had prizes? first I heard of that. first I heard of PB even giving out prizes.
They definitely had prizes. Don't recall the exact details but I remember the champion posting a pic of some trophies he won.
Pretty sure Adepticon had 'em too, but with only 9 or 10 participants it didn't exactly get a flurry of chatter about it.
Note: I never said they were GOOD or valuable prizes, but I do remember there being comments on some prize support in general.
Forar wrote: I seem to recall it coming up a couple of times when people reported doing some demo'ing, but that could've been tied at least in part due to the demo areas being smaller than standard.
It's hard to get away from your opponent's brutal kick line if the table itself isn't big enough to get much distance without flying off it.
This also brings up what has been one of many eternal eye rolls of the game; if HtH is so useless, why the feth is so much book and card space dedicated to it? If it's so great, it can become silly if extrapolated too highly like that.
I imagine its utility (or lack thereof) will also come down to other factors like the table itself. If there's sufficient intervening terrain to let the Pod groups get close enough to engage like that, sure, it could be messy. Big open shooting galleries, less so. Opponent has blast missiles? That could get even uglier.
Not to be 'that guy', but Mike if I'm not mistaken haven't most of your 'many games' been against yourself? Let's not pretend that playing both sides is entirely the same thing as two opponents with differing play styles/approaches. If you did find a regular opponent (of equal skill, playing soft against the kids isn't the same thing either), I cheerfully retract.
That said, I don't recall hearing a report of it at the Adepticon tournament or the PB Open House tournament, where prizes were on the line and presumably players would be at least somewhat more inclined to play competitively, if still with good sportsmanship.
So perhaps it really was overly hyped over a 'theorycrafted' concern rather than one that is likely to end up in actual gameplay. One of those considerations that were pondered while we waited for actual info.
There's less of them these days because the community seems to be mostly non-existent and has moved on. "If a game fails in the stores, does it make a sound?" Probably not one that can be heard over the clatter of dice and shuffling of cards from the tables full of X-Wing and Magic players.
So you want to go off on Hand to Hand...... Seems an awfull lot of effort and concern over something so small in the game....
1. Utility.....why so many options if it is useless.
A. I never said it was useless....just very uncommon. When you have something that can do more damage shooting there are few cases or reasons to do HTH.
B. You know why there are so many options so why ask? In case you forgot I will answer though. It was directly imported from the RPG and kept that way to keep a connection to the RPG and also for the "cool" factor.
C. The game was also built by RPG players who have no idea how Minis games work or should work.
2. Games
A. I've had about 10 solo games and 4 games with other players. Only in a few times did we have any Hand to Hand because it is VERY limited by circumstances as to when it should and can be used. Most of the time it is Spartans hunting targets.
Since you jumped in......how many games have you played so far and how many kicklines have you witnessed? I've to this day only heard of ONE game where this happened and how people built it up to be an apocalyptic event.
Now in Nodal Wars those 8 options I've reduced to 4 and it makes more sense. I've also turned my back on RRT pretty much completely and stay informed for the sake of sating my love of Robotech.
"Go off"? I presented thoughts as to why the idea might have stuck in some people's head. Effort and concern? No more or less than the other pertinent details of this ongoing gakshow as I recall them (and my memory is plenty fallible).
You seem to be taking that whole post as 'calling you out', but the one point where I note you having limited experience against other people was the only segment aimed directly to you. It was a generic response to like 3 different posts, which perhaps I should've noted with @signals.
10 solo games? A single mind will not come up with the creative/unexpected responses that dedicated game testing requires. 4 games with a human opponent is a sampler. 14 games is certainly more than most of us have played, but let's not consider it some spectacular feat of expertise. The kind of data necessary to get a representative example would be hundreds, thousands, or more (across a much larger pool of people), and with your scientific background I'd have thought you'd know that. It's not a slight, it's a fact that you need a HUGE pile of data to get representative information. It doesn't mean your experiences aren't valuable, but while it's certainly more informed than pure 'theorycrafting' (which has a place), it's not like you were buried in the game. The people who attended the Open House tournament (all 12 or so of them?) probably got just as many 1 on 1 games in across a single day as you've ever played.
You're awfully defensive on the matter, and I have no idea why. Aside from the point that having limited games (especially without opponents) doesn't generate remotely the same data that multiple opponents will, it's entirely academic to me. How many games have I played? Zero. How many kicklines have I observed? Zero. That's why I referenced "theorycrafting", which as a wargamer you are most surely familiar with, but I can draw the concept out in crayon if you like. Frankly, I'm surprised the number is that low, I thought you'd gotten in far more.
My statements were what they were, and I'm not sure why you seem to huffy over it. If something is important/valuable, but people think it unfun or less than reflective of the game they were sold on, that's noteworthy. If it's not that big a deal, then why dedicate so much time/space/effort to it? We went over this a dozen times; because "PBlol" and so they could shoehorn more "RPG" into RRT, but that doesn't make it any more sensible.
Which comes around nicely to the point that it ISN'T being played, so instead of getting defensive over a non-issue, perhaps it's worth recognizing *why* people were under that impression and how it might've been done differently?
Oh, wait, you've already said you did it differently?
Then why the feth do you care if people dislike RRT's HtH system? You've already (partially?) abandoned it!
That said, I don't recall hearing a report of it at the Adepticon tournament or the PB Open House tournament, where prizes were on the line and presumably players would be at least somewhat more inclined to play competitively, if still with good sportsmanship.
they had prizes? first I heard of that. first I heard of PB even giving out prizes.
They definitely had prizes. Don't recall the exact details but I remember the champion posting a pic of some trophies he won.
Pretty sure Adepticon had 'em too, but with only 9 or 10 participants it didn't exactly get a flurry of chatter about it.
Note: I never said they were GOOD or valuable prizes, but I do remember there being comments on some prize support in general.
heard about some kind of trophy and/or certificate and what I had heard from their MA's was that prize support was non-existent unless the MA's foot the bill on them. (in fact they keep losing MA's because of that.)
Forar wrote: "Go off"? I presented thoughts as to why the idea might have stuck in some people's head. Effort and concern? No more or less than the other pertinent details of this ongoing gakshow as I recall them (and my memory is plenty fallible).
You seem to be taking that whole post as 'calling you out', but the one point where I note you having limited experience against other people was the only segment aimed directly to you. It was a generic response to like 3 different posts, which perhaps I should've noted with @signals.
10 solo games? A single mind will not come up with the creative/unexpected responses that dedicated game testing requires. 4 games with a human opponent is a sampler. 14 games is certainly more than most of us have played, but let's not consider it some spectacular feat of expertise. The kind of data necessary to get a representative example would be hundreds, thousands, or more (across a much larger pool of people), and with your scientific background I'd have thought you'd know that. It's not a slight, it's a fact that you need a HUGE pile of data to get representative information. It doesn't mean your experiences aren't valuable, but while it's certainly more informed than pure 'theorycrafting' (which has a place), it's not like you were buried in the game. The people who attended the Open House tournament (all 12 or so of them?) probably got just as many 1 on 1 games in across a single day as you've ever played.
You're awfully defensive on the matter, and I have no idea why. Aside from the point that having limited games (especially without opponents) doesn't generate remotely the same data that multiple opponents will, it's entirely academic to me. How many games have I played? Zero. How many kicklines have I observed? Zero. That's why I referenced "theorycrafting", which as a wargamer you are most surely familiar with, but I can draw the concept out in crayon if you like. Frankly, I'm surprised the number is that low, I thought you'd gotten in far more.
My statements were what they were, and I'm not sure why you seem to huffy over it. If something is important/valuable, but people think it unfun or less than reflective of the game they were sold on, that's noteworthy. If it's not that big a deal, then why dedicate so much time/space/effort to it? We went over this a dozen times; because "PBlol" and so they could shoehorn more "RPG" into RRT, but that doesn't make it any more sensible.
Which comes around nicely to the point that it ISN'T being played, so instead of getting defensive over a non-issue, perhaps it's worth recognizing *why* people were under that impression and how it might've been done differently?
Oh, wait, you've already said you did it differently?
Then why the feth do you care if people dislike RRT's HtH system? You've already (partially?) abandoned it!
Going off on something, even as a response, trying to prove that it is a problem, trying to point out people who say it is not there their experience is limited while having ZERO experience on the subject yourself? I can think of a few words for that......
Like I said, making mountains out of molehills. Regardless, I'm moving on from RRT.
Relating what people have shared/said, as best I can recall it, is not "going off".
If you really think it is, that says more about you than it does about me. I freely admit I may have mis-remembered something, but you're reading way more into my original response than was present.
People (in the past) said the 'kickline' was a big deal, in theory or reality. I presented reasons that might have been the case. You could have just said "man, HtH in RRT is a mess, I did it better" and dropped the mic. No need to take things so personally.
Well, out of interest sake, I refuse to play with myself, so have not gone solo.
I promised myself that with chess: I hate it when I outsmart myself.
I got in 6 first time games with others (demos etc.).
Then a second game in with 2 players who took an interest.
A friend who is very patient, I got to play some 5 games with him.
So 13 games in all.
No expert by any stretch, I should discount a couple games because we house-ruled a couple things to see if it would play better (games with my friend).
The "myth" of the kickline for me was the surprise of stumbling into it thinking it would not be a big deal.
I must admit the swiftly evaporating cover surprised me more.
Never mind early-on when I started playing, Mike pointed out that Veritech's fly in all modes...
Well, there is enough frustration to go around.
PB is rather exceptional at twisting reality so "moving-on" is difficult since they keep claiming it all is OK, just have a little patience.
Lying turkeys they are.
Mike1975 wrote: sorry, just tired of "experts" who have not even played....
I never played, but then again not complaining about the H-T-H kick rules either, but do see the humour of a row of pods doing the Can-Can down the street.
Mike1975 wrote: sorry, just tired of "experts" who have not even played....
I never played, but then again not complaining about the H-T-H kick rules either, but do see the humour of a row of pods doing the Can-Can down the street.
I agree the label conveys far more vivid imagery than the actual gaming tactic.
The bloody things are all legs!
Run for your lives!
Makes you want to play "Pin the garter on the pod".
Somewhere, somebody's probably made a video of those battlepods, particle cannons interlocked and dressed in Minmei dresses doing a can-can as a Ricke Hunter battleoid tries to dodge through the line without getting whacked...."It's the Protoculture Revolution!"
Someone needs to make a soccer scenario with Battlepods vs. Phalanxes, though - that'd be damn hilarious.
Sell like hot cakes, that's optimistic.
I call shenanigans, he didn't show the lead up to the second dumpster, I reckon that was actually Wayne's office, that guy broke into Palladium Books!
Light are off, nobody's working, definitely PB.
Even with the terrible sprue set up I'd keep the minis and lack of forethought I can't bring myself to throw away any model. Even badly designed ones. I still feel that whoever made all those separations and the ok'd them should not be in this industry.
Cypher-xv wrote: Even with the terrible sprue set up I'd keep the minis and lack of forethought I can't bring myself to throw away any model. Even badly designed ones. I still feel that whoever made all those separations and the ok'd them should not be in this industry.
I don't think whoever made those separations IS in the industry. They're used to dealing with regular plastics, and having them suitable for gaming doesn't even appear to be on the list of things that they considered. Or, it was instruction from above, to have it "only be done that way".
As for being OK'd, well, we know the three parties responsible for that. Going up the chain...
- The first refuses to speak on the matter, and has otherwise distanced themselves from the project
- The second thinks they're awesome, and "could only be done that way", and is lead by someone who admits they don't give a crap about any aspect of the industry except RPG's
- The third obviously has zero interest in getting the best out of the property, only in keeping control of the property, yet allegedly sticks their fingers into every aspect, delaying things significantly.
There are a couple of mixed hobby stores around me. One is mostly cards and boardgames, the other is mixed boardgames/minis with a smattering of cards, plus a pile of others that mix and match, but those are the two I end up at the most.
Especially if comics are involved, that can lead to some extremely diverse product lines on the same shelves.
I think he meant a flgs... most make their money on mtg, pokemon, FFG lcgs, etc. They also sell 40k, used video games, etc.. However if you ask most flgs, they will tell you they make their money on card games like mtg. It is cheap for them, brings folks in with the hefty support, etc.
He seems like a video gamer, so that's probably why he called it a card shop.
n815e wrote: Yeah, around here we call them hobby shops or gaming shops. I have never heard them called card shops.
But I get it.
Funny, one of the biggest gaming supply shops in the area here is "J&J's Cards and Collectables".
Talking to the owners, they managed to sell around 8 starter boxes of RRT but oddly, 20 some boxes of the destroids (Battletech anyone?).
They do not hold games there but wow the product!
They are down the road (walking distance) from two Universities and a College so product tends to fly off the shelves (with prices being stupid low).
It allows them the enviable position to dictate terms with many suppliers, GW in particular is comical: they really do not know what to do to "force" them to do what they want.
I had the "pleasure" of hearing the odd discussion with GW of supply they had to give or lose shelf space.
Playmobile and Lego take up about 1/4 of the store.
1/8th is collectable figures (sports, super heroes, star wars).
1/8th is board and non-collectable card games (all the "classic" home games and new like Zombicide etc.).
1/4 is tabletop wargames and their supplies (GW, X-wing/Armada, Attack Wing, Ral Partha, Privateer Press, Malifaux... and many more).
1/8th is collectable cards / "stuff" (Magic, Pokémon, hero-clicks, sports cards, sleeves).
1/8th is RPG games and all the supporting stuff (Pathfinder is a big one, D&D...).
It is a very nice rounding out of "hobby" where the whole family can go in and find something (my wallet hurts every time I set foot in there).
Anyway, this place is my gold standard for hobby supply, the lack of gaming space hurts but they also do online sales so they need to keep a bit of a warehouse.
As someone who's probably played this game more than anyone on this thread (I've played 100's of games already)...I've seen this "kick line" only occur once in the 100 or so games I've played. The strategy is so situational and requires too many things to go in the zentraedi's favor that it really isn't all that viable. HTH is a last resort for Pods as their shooting is better. Additionally, having all your pods in HTH means your Glaug is vulnerable to attack...since he could lose his screening units, etc. Destroids do more damage in HTH than pods because they have more options. Also, people forget that you can still share and roll with damage much easier in HTH...as none of the attacks prevent those actions. So really the damage output is abysmal. Lastly, if you can weather the initial blows and you have an available CP...you can simply walk (or fly) out of combat against pods...as they can't lock you in a close combat (no hands = no grab attack). Their lack of hands means they can't stop you from escaping. HTH combat is only really good if you have a mecha that has hands and can wield a club. Spartans are the best and most dangerous HTH mechs (they get bonuses to their HTH damage among other things). HTH has it's place in the game for tactical/ strategic purposes...but it isn't something that the zentraedi player will seek out unless they are completely new to the game or are suicidal with their units. Shooting is always the best option for Zentraedi and building a zentraedi list in the attempt to "try" the kick line really isn't that great of a list and can easily be picked apart by a solid UEDF list/ player.
Forar wrote: I seem to recall it coming up a couple of times when people reported doing some demo'ing, but that could've been tied at least in part due to the demo areas being smaller than standard.
It's hard to get away from your opponent's brutal kick line if the table itself isn't big enough to get much distance without flying off it.
This also brings up what has been one of many eternal eye rolls of the game; if HtH is so useless, why the feth is so much book and card space dedicated to it? If it's so great, it can become silly if extrapolated too highly like that.
I imagine its utility (or lack thereof) will also come down to other factors like the table itself. If there's sufficient intervening terrain to let the Pod groups get close enough to engage like that, sure, it could be messy. Big open shooting galleries, less so. Opponent has blast missiles? That could get even uglier.
Not to be 'that guy', but Mike if I'm not mistaken haven't most of your 'many games' been against yourself? Let's not pretend that playing both sides is entirely the same thing as two opponents with differing play styles/approaches. If you did find a regular opponent (of equal skill, playing soft against the kids isn't the same thing either), I cheerfully retract.
That said, I don't recall hearing a report of it at the Adepticon tournament or the PB Open House tournament, where prizes were on the line and presumably players would be at least somewhat more inclined to play competitively, if still with good sportsmanship.
So perhaps it really was overly hyped over a 'theorycrafted' concern rather than one that is likely to end up in actual gameplay. One of those considerations that were pondered while we waited for actual info.
There's less of them these days because the community seems to be mostly non-existent and has moved on. "If a game fails in the stores, does it make a sound?" Probably not one that can be heard over the clatter of dice and shuffling of cards from the tables full of X-Wing and Magic players.
I cannot believe anyone has played 100's of games of RRT. Most wargamers don't play 100's of games of anything let alone a game that doesn't even have a semi-complete product line.
It does sound suspect. I'd be more than curious who his 100 opponent(s) were. Also, someone whose played numerous games is well aware of the system's shortcomings, and I'd be interested to hear opinions in that area. (Though I have to admit, the chance of me ever playing RRT is at about the chance of there being a Wave 3 delivered).
Anyways, I see the SW Rifts funded already. I'll be curious to see that one deliver, and to what level the funding reaches.
J&J used to have table space, way back in the day, along with a lot of comics and wider selection of hobby models. But they have figured out where the money is and have adjusted.
Stormonu wrote: It does sound suspect. I'd be more than curious who his 100 opponent(s) were. Also, someone whose played numerous games is well aware of the system's shortcomings, and I'd be interested to hear opinions in that area. (Though I have to admit, the chance of me ever playing RRT is at about the chance of there being a Wave 3 delivered).
Anyways, I see the SW Rifts funded already. I'll be curious to see that one deliver, and to what level the funding reaches.
well he never said 100 opponents just 100's of games, me I've played several other type of games hundreds of times but mostly with the same handful of people.
Given that wave one only started getting into hands roughly a year and a half ago, let's say 500'ish days, a game every 2 or 3 days does seem like a lot, but we lack further context. Were a bunch of them fast demos with a few models per side? I could see someone doing convention or store demo's playing "dozens of games" in a weekend, but at a skirmish scale, not 300+ points per side as is the alleged Standard. Maybe they're just fast players? A 'Standard Malifaux game is supposed to be like an hour or two, but my friends and I could take 3 or 4+ because it was a mixed game and social gathering.
Not that it really matters either way. 50, 100, 200, leagues or Pick Up Games or tournaments or demos, it's still infinitely more table time than I've put into it.
Given the raw hours for assembly I guess it seems a bit extreme unless RRT is like the only game that person played for the last 18 months, but it really could go either way.
Given that wave one only started getting into hands roughly a year and a half ago, let's say 500'ish days, a game every 2 or 3 days does seem like a lot, but we lack further context. Were a bunch of them fast demos with a few models per side? I could see someone doing convention or store demo's playing "dozens of games" in a weekend, but at a skirmish scale, not 300+ points per side as is the alleged Standard. Maybe they're just fast players? A 'Standard Malifaux game is supposed to be like an hour or two, but my friends and I could take 3 or 4+ because it was a mixed game and social gathering.
Not that it really matters either way. 50, 100, 200, leagues or Pick Up Games or tournaments or demos, it's still infinitely more table time than I've put into it.
Given the raw hours for assembly I guess it seems a bit extreme unless RRT is like the only game that person played for the last 18 months, but it really could go either way.
here are some pros and cons you forgot:
Pro: could play a quick game with his kids or Significant other every now and then.
Con: you forgot to take into effect build time, even for a small skirmish game (which is not a good medium to judge what will and will not work), it would take days and or weeks to build the troops required.
I didn't actually forget the con. I just didn't feel the need to anal retentively mention every last little... wait, never mind.
Yeah. Totes forgot it. You got me there. Have a cookie.
Edit: but then there's the counterpoint that maybe he tested with other minis, or printed out standees like Mike, or who knows what other factors were present.
well he never said 100 opponents just 100's of games, me I've played several other type of games hundreds of times but mostly with the same handful of people.
That was what I meant by opponent(s), mainly I suspect it was a small pool of folks, maybe tournament-style games (thus several in one day), possibly even including solo/theorycraft games.
Hell, in my state, I thinks there's only 25 people total that went into this game. I've only ever heard of one other person in my area who had interest in this - they went in on the kickstarter and had sold their pledge/minis a few months before I talked to them. There was also supposed to be a RRT game/tournament at Coastcon not too far from me back in March/April, but I heard from my sources (who run the Con), nobody showed up to play. Everyone else I normally game with won't even touch this game - and a lot of them used to be pretty heavy into Battletech, or even Heavy Gear.
I know about a half dozen people that backed RRT and not one of them have played a game to date. (The only RRT models I've seen being used at all are being used with battletech). Everyone pretty much built 2-3 models and were like "feth this" and just tucked the rest in a closet along with piles of their other abandoned KS games. It seems in my experience people get really excited about a KS project but that cools off massively by the time it arrives and they are more interested in other newer things.
With KS stuff I'm also in that boat, I backed all of the Zombicide campaigns quite heavily and I've only ever played a few games of the first season. On season 2, 3, & Black Plague I barely opened the box to look at the contents before I said "meh" and put it on the shelf despite spending $300+ on each of those releases. I also backed Sedition Wars and Bloodrage with equal measures of KS excitement, but I haven't played a single game of either.
I'm sure there's a few people out there who have built all their RRT stuff and are trying to game with it but I think that's a small minority of the backers. There doesn't seem to be many centralized groups of players, the assembly time is daunting and after 2-3 years time there's been a lot of new other brands of shiny products for people to chase after.
Swabby wrote: I cannot believe anyone has played 100's of games of RRT. Most wargamers don't play 100's of games of anything let alone a game that doesn't even have a semi-complete product line.
I call shenanigans on those games. You have to understand the cap'n is a fan friend who defends everything palladium does on the PB boards. An just like Kevin they aren't afraid to over exaggerate the truth. Like how nmi and Liam do.
I have had a playable minimum of Robotech minis built since January, 2015. In the 15+ months since then, if I were serious about playing, 7+ games monthly would be 100+ total, so 100 games is not an infeasible amount to have played, not by any stretch of the imagination.
Also, the entire boxed set can be built in a few weeks, definitely. It's just a question of priorities.
In my case, playing RRT hasn't been a priority. But I could. Any time. I could.
paulson games wrote: I'm sure there's a few people out there who have built all their RRT stuff and are trying to game with it but I think that's a small minority of the backers.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I have had a playable minimum of Robotech minis built since January, 2015. In the 15+ months since then, if I were serious about playing, 7+ games monthly would be 100+ total, so 100 games is not an infeasible amount to have played, not by any stretch of the imagination.
But the statement in question was "hundredS", plural. 200+ games makes that 12+ games monthly, or 3+ per week, without fail, maybe more after accounting for build time.
There are things I love that I don't want to do a dozen times per month, every month, for a year and a half straight.
It's feasible in the sense that a truly committed massive super fan *could* do it, but ONE GUY doing it doesn't make a community. It's an extreme of the bellcurve, a single data point, an interesting tidbit (if it's even true).
On further thought I'm guessing that by "games played" he's including demo time, though I'm not sure I'd say I played "a dozen games of RRT" if I were using 2 VT's versus a half dozen Pods to demo for people who may or may not ever bother to touch the game again.
Not to say he is, just that it's the kind of thing that could even remotely make sense with the 200+ figure he alluded to. On second glance, it doesn't stand up without either a revision of the numbers or manipulation of the particulars.
As we said in the last update, we are gearing up for more Robotech® RPG Tactics™, starting with material that will be made available on DriveThruRPG.com. Meanwhile, we are supporting all kinds of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ events at StrategiCon. More on that in the next update.
I am pointedly trying not to troll them, but I have pointed out that RRT started off as rainbows and sunshine as well.
I swear, if I come back at the end of the year and see people saying "oh Palladium is involved, of course it's late, blah blah blah" I may just go on a trolling spree that involves nothing but making them eat their words from today.
Lots of people who think PEG has a handle on things and that there's no way PB could do anything to change that.
I feel that this is sorely lacking in imagination, but best of luck to 'em.
If nothing else it's kinda win/win, because it'd be plenty hilarious to see a non-PB company make a giant pile of money off a property that PB seems to struggle to keep the lights on with. Sort of a vindication that the setting holds appeal (or at least nostalgia for some) but the adherence to mechanics from a quarter century or more ago is holding them back.
People pondering if this will break 1 or 2 million seem crazy (and to be smoking Kicktraq like the GOOD stuff), but hey, go ahead, rake in a giant pile of cash while the PB crew just stare at the screens. "They paid us HOW MUCH for the licensing rights? They are making WHAT per day?!?"
JohnHwangDD wrote: I have had a playable minimum of Robotech minis built since January, 2015. In the 15+ months since then, if I were serious about playing, 7+ games monthly would be 100+ total, so 100 games is not an infeasible amount to have played, not by any stretch of the imagination.
But the statement in question was "hundredS", plural. 200+ games makes that 12+ games monthly, or 3+ per week, without fail, maybe more after accounting for build time.
There are things I love that I don't want to do a dozen times per month, every month, for a year and a half straight..
2 or 3 weekly? Back when I was single and played a ton of 40k in my spare time, I got in that many games. Easily.
Lotsa trust in PEG it looks like, and in most cases I would agree they seem to know what their doing.
But statements like "This is like dealing with any other IP" clearly shows they have no clue what's in store for them.
Also, that they've already run out of KS stretch goals and are scrambling to add more does not inspire confidence (**takes an over-the-shoulder look**). I hope they remember their mantra "we're a small group, working only part-time." and stick to it.
I'll admit I was thinking about buying into this when it came out to retail, but after reading this review: http://mostunreadblogever.blogspot.ca/2016/04/tommys-take-on-savage-rifts-players.html ; I'm not sure the way this stretches the SW rules is what I'm looking for. After all, I mainly wanted it to see how I might be able to tweak the Robotech RPG rules to a SW format. I might be better off doing my own thing.
As we said in the last update, we are gearing up for more Robotech® RPG Tactics™, starting with material that will be made available on DriveThruRPG.com. Meanwhile, we are supporting all kinds of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ events at StrategiCon. More on that in the next update.
Do we have a snooze emoji?
Actually, I found the RRT part quite interesting, in an "I don't believe they're continuing with this farce" way. With regards the first, it's only been just over ten months since Conventional Forces were promised to backers. "The good news is that we are currently putting the finishing touches on the squad sizes, point costs and related rules and special abilities for these vehicles and Micronian infantry. These stats and info will be posted next week for your reference and to assist you with rounding out your squadrons and platoons." Posted Update 182, June 14th, 2015
Or, if they're referring to the Wave 2 rules and force orgs, then it's only been 8 months. "We will be posting the following in the weeks ahead: -Actual cards for Wave Two game pieces. -Force Organization Charts." Posted Update 186, August 27th, 2015.
Of course, that comes literally directly under "As stated, we’re shooting to release RRT Wave Two around the end of 2015 or sometime in the first quarter of 2016.", so we know what their time management skills and/or promises are worth.
As for the second part, regarding Strategicon, I'd like to know what "all kinds of RRT at Strategicon" means. A cursory search finds a modelling tutorial, four specifically demonstration games, and one possible competitive event. I say possible, because it's the only event not explicitly stating it's a demo game. Though it's only listed as running two hours, and starts Friday 8pm. Speaking of time, there seems to be some significant timing clashes. The Modelling Tutorial starts at 1pm Friday, and runs for 2 hours. The first demo starts at 2pm Friday, and runs for two hours. The second demo starts at 3pm, and runs for two hours. Then the final two demos, and the potential event, all start Friday at 8pm, with the event and one demo going 2 hours, and the other demo going 4. And that'd all be well and good if PB had a crack crew running things properly. But it appears to be one guy, running all six events. If he doesn't have a decent supporting staff, I don't see how it's not going to be a mess of conflicting issues, especially if there is anything more than token interest in any of the events. There are three other regular RPG events (two Robotech and one Rifts). And that appears to be it for Palladium product lines, after Ctrl-F searching for "robotech", "tactics", "RRT" "rifts" and "palladium".
So, at Strategicon a typically strong showing by RRT Tactics. Regardless, this'll be used by PB as evidence that they've not gone a year without an RRT event.
Anyways,GenCon Event Registration opens up in just over two weeks, so we can see just how focused they are on events there. I'm not expecting much. Then again, I'm not expecting anything.
I'll also note from the PBWU, it seems clear that of the 8 books (Rifters not withstanding) that PB were hoping to put out by mid-year, it's looking more and more like it's gonna be just the one (plus another, maybe, which was split off from the first). That they still seem to believe they can do an additional four books (Disavowed, Atlanteans, Haunted Tech and Garden of the Gods) in the following 4-5 months (depending on when they count Summer as ending), continues to speak to their delusions of adequacy. Hey, it's possible, but they've literally been saying that Heroes has been a week from completion, since like February. They definitely live in their own little time/space bubble.
I'll admit I was thinking about buying into this when it came out to retail, but after reading this review: http://mostunreadblogever.blogspot.ca/2016/04/tommys-take-on-savage-rifts-players.html ; I'm not sure the way this stretches the SW rules is what I'm looking for. After all, I mainly wanted it to see how I might be able to tweak the Robotech RPG rules to a SW format. I might be better off doing my own thing.
If you're not familiar with Mekton or Silhouette, you might want to take a look at those. Both work pretty well right out of the tin for that kind of game, although each has its own appeal.
I'll admit I was thinking about buying into this when it came out to retail, but after reading this review: http://mostunreadblogever.blogspot.ca/2016/04/tommys-take-on-savage-rifts-players.html ; I'm not sure the way this stretches the SW rules is what I'm looking for. After all, I mainly wanted it to see how I might be able to tweak the Robotech RPG rules to a SW format. I might be better off doing my own thing.
If you're not familiar with Mekton or Silhouette, you might want to take a look at those. Both work pretty well right out of the tin for that kind of game, although each has its own appeal.
At that rate, why not TCRRT using the old HG Tactical rules? Plenty of crunch there!
I'll admit I was thinking about buying into this when it came out to retail, but after reading this review: http://mostunreadblogever.blogspot.ca/2016/04/tommys-take-on-savage-rifts-players.html ; I'm not sure the way this stretches the SW rules is what I'm looking for. After all, I mainly wanted it to see how I might be able to tweak the Robotech RPG rules to a SW format. I might be better off doing my own thing.
If you're not familiar with Mekton or Silhouette, you might want to take a look at those. Both work pretty well right out of the tin for that kind of game, although each has its own appeal.
At that rate, why not TCRRT using the old HG Tactical rules? Plenty of crunch there!
TC? I'm not catching the reference.
He's talking about rules for an RPG there, so I'd say that for that purpose both rulesets work very well.
Ah, ok ^_^. Well, you don't actually need to do that in either if the systems. You'd just need to stat up some mechas. It works pretty much right out of the box in both cases. I've GMed multiple Macross campaigns using both Mekton (once) and SilCORE (twice), and I only needed to stat up vehicles, basically.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I have had a playable minimum of Robotech minis built since January, 2015. In the 15+ months since then, if I were serious about playing, 7+ games monthly would be 100+ total, so 100 games is not an infeasible amount to have played, not by any stretch of the imagination.
But the statement in question was "hundredS", plural. 200+ games makes that 12+ games monthly, or 3+ per week, without fail, maybe more after accounting for build time.
There are things I love that I don't want to do a dozen times per month, every month, for a year and a half straight..
2 or 3 weekly? Back when I was single and played a ton of 40k in my spare time, I got in that many games. Easily.
3 letters: S. E. X.
40k has a slightly larger fanbase. Think you could've managed it with this community/game? Think 18 months of pushing pods and VT's/Destroids around the table would hold the same appeal as... however many millions of figures GW has released?
Swabby wrote: I cannot believe anyone has played 100's of games of RRT. Most wargamers don't play 100's of games of anything let alone a game that doesn't even have a semi-complete product line.
Believe it. I've played this game with a small player group regularly since it was released. I usually play 3-4 games a month...sometimes more.
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Joyboozer wrote: He does go from 100s to 100 in the same sentence.
I said hundred or so...which means at least 100 possibly more. That still equals 100s. But nice attempt at nitpicking.
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Stormonu wrote: It does sound suspect. I'd be more than curious who his 100 opponent(s) were. Also, someone whose played numerous games is well aware of the system's shortcomings, and I'd be interested to hear opinions in that area. (Though I have to admit, the chance of me ever playing RRT is at about the chance of there being a Wave 3 delivered).
Why do people instantly suspect my claim as false? How long has this game been out to the general population? If you have a regular play group playing that many games is easy. In the beginning we'd play 150pt games and could get about 6 or 7 of those games in quite regularly as we were learning the game.
Joyboozer wrote: He does go from 100s to 100 in the same sentence.
I said hundred or so...which means at least 100 possibly more. That still equals 100s. But nice attempt at nitpicking.
Sorry to nitpick, but no, "100+" and "100s" aren't the exact same thing. One (at least in my experience) means "Over 100" and the other means "Two hundred or more". If someone asked "how long have you been bitching about RRT on the internet" and I said "hundreds of days" and it was actually 120 (we all know it's a lot more but I'm making an example, please keep up), that's not actually "hundreds".
Your exact quote was " (I've played 100's of games already)"
Plural means multiple. Multiple hundreds means... 200+
But yes, playing smaller scale games rapid fire back to back makes a lot more sense. Thank you for clarifying.
And yes, obviously it's still infinitely more games than most of us have played. Thank you for weighing in on the 'kickline concern', good to put that one to bed. That said, I seem to recall that the question that started this whole thing was simply asking what it was, not as to how effective it was. Nobody here (that I recall) stated it WAS, factually, a terrifying tactic. Simply that it had been commented on in the past and the joke had built from there. Much like the "Pod hiding behind a lamp post" debate.
Given that wave one only started getting into hands roughly a year and a half ago, let's say 500'ish days, a game every 2 or 3 days does seem like a lot, but we lack further context. Were a bunch of them fast demos with a few models per side? I could see someone doing convention or store demo's playing "dozens of games" in a weekend, but at a skirmish scale, not 300+ points per side as is the alleged Standard. Maybe they're just fast players? A 'Standard Malifaux game is supposed to be like an hour or two, but my friends and I could take 3 or 4+ because it was a mixed game and social gathering.
Not that it really matters either way. 50, 100, 200, leagues or Pick Up Games or tournaments or demos, it's still infinitely more table time than I've put into it.
Given the raw hours for assembly I guess it seems a bit extreme unless RRT is like the only game that person played for the last 18 months, but it really could go either way.
No Hyperbole. In the beginning we'd only play with about 150pts of stuff. Those games take maybe 30 minutes tops. Especially if you lose your key models quickly. This has been the only game I've played regularly now since I stopped playing 40k. It's the only wargame I currently play. Assembly time for me is no different than how much time I spent assembling 40k models. Robotech models are fiddly, but that's about it. They are stupidly easy to assemble for an experienced modeler. Try assembling a FW titan....then you'll truly have a sense of how easy Robotech figs are to assemble compared to that. Bottom line is that I can easily say I've played more legitimate games of Robotech than any of the people on here.
I call shenanigans on those games. You have to understand the cap'n is a fan friend who defends everything palladium does on the PB boards. An just like Kevin they aren't afraid to over exaggerate the truth. Like how nmi and Liam do.
Dude you don't even know me. I'm not a fan friend of Kevin or PB. I don't even know the guy. Do you even play this game? If not, then your comment is dumb. Like you even know anything about this game other than complain about it. That's easy any and all off us have complained about it. I don't think you'll see me singing PB's praises about how they are handling this game.
CaptKaruthors wrote: Try assembling a FW titan....then you'll truly have a sense of how easy Robotech figs are to assemble compared to that.
Given that a Titan is a $250 US model that's like a foot tall (from the pics I've seen), yes, I'd imagine they are quite challenging to build.
Not exactly a glowing comparison to a $5 figure 1.5 inches tall, you know.
Bottom line is that I can easily say I've played more legitimate games of Robotech than any of the people on here.
And you're familiar enough with this thread to know that it's not exactly an awe inspiring feat for most of us, right?
Hell, I can go play a couple of games this weekend and say the same thing about most of the thread (other than you, obviously).
If you have a solid core of super fans around that are into getting a game or two per week for over a year, awesome. Nobody is challenging your appreciation (the particulars seemed off but you have clarified). Truly you have won at Robotech® RPG Tactics™! WITNESS HIM!!!
Sorry to nitpick, but no, "100+" and "100s" aren't the exact same thing. One (at least in my experience) means "Over 100" and the other means "Two hundred or more".
Your exact quote was " (I've played 100's of games already)"
Plural means multiple. Multiple hundreds means... 200+
But yes, playing smaller scale games rapid fire back to back makes a lot more sense. Thank you for clarifying.
And yes, obviously it's still infinitely more games than most of us have played. Thank you for weighing in on the 'kickline concern', good to put that one to bed. That said, the question that started this whole thing was simply asking what it was, not as to how effective it was. Nobody here (that I recall) stated it WAS, factually, a terrifying tactic. Simply that it had been commented on in the past and the joke had built from there.
JFC. Really? Ok....for the people that need to nitpick I've played more than 100 games easily...150? Maybe...but then again...I'm not really counting them. I didn't realize I had to justify the number of games I've played and that it had to reach some sort of benchmark number for my comments to warrant merit. The bottom line is: I've played way more games of Robotech than any of you...so when I speak about it...I'm in a better position to know what I'm talking about in regards to the game itself than any of you. Maybe Mike can speak about the game more than I since he helped test the rules...but I can definitively say that actual games played versus other people...I have more experience.
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Given that a Titan is a $250 US model that's like a foot tall (from the pics I've seen), yes, I'd imagine they are quite challenging to build.
Not exactly a glowing comparison to a $5 figure 1.5 inches tall, you know.
My point is that a robotech model to an experience modeler isn't that big of a deal...and isn't all that difficult to assemble.
And you're familiar enough with this thread to know that it's not exactly an awe inspiring feat for most of us, right?
Hell, I can go play a couple of games this weekend and say the same thing about most of the thread (other than you, obviously).
If you have a solid core of super fans around that are into getting a game or two per week for over a year, awesome. Nobody is challenging your appreciation (the particulars seemed off but you have clarified). Truly you have won at Robotech® RPG Tactics™! WITNESS HIM!!!
I'm well aware of how this thread goes. You have a large segment of people talking about a game they don't even play. They legitimately complain about the handling of the game, sure (all gripes about the handling of this game are legit)...but other than that. They don't play it. So they talk about a game they don't play. Which is odd. :shrug:
Stormonu wrote: Also, that they've already run out of KS stretch goals and are scrambling to add more does not inspire confidence (**takes an over-the-shoulder look**). I hope they remember their mantra "we're a small group, working only part-time." and stick to it.
From the creator:
Creator Shane Hensley about 16 hours ago
Two more things that will bear repeating. This Kickstarter is obviously going well and we are super excited. We are *still* a tiny company, however, and everyone but me works part-time. That means it may occasionally take a while to answer questions and the like. But we will get to 'em. Thanks for understanding. We have more Stretch Goals ready but given the response we have to adjust a bit and make sure we can finish everything we promise with the size of the team we have. Yes, you guys and gals have increased our budget, but that doesn't mean the core team can write / paint any faster. Delivering *great* stuff on time is important to us, and it *kills* us when we slip.
That said, we'll have an update tonight that will address at least the next couple.
Thanks!
Followed by this in the first update;
Stretch Goals
Now...you're really here for new Stretch Goals, aren't you?
We came up with the rest of the goals but not the amounts since we didn't know what kind of response we were going to get. We're also very conscious about only listing stuff we know we can handle and won't interfere with getting all the print books we're working on done in the time we said we would.
So please give us until early afternoon tomorrow and we'll show you what we've got coming. I will tell you this though...
Woof!
Roar!
Ka-THUNK! Ka-THUNK! Ka-THUNK!
So apparently they have more, they just need to price them out. Which is kind of a 'behind the scenes' thing that most campaigns don't admit out loud, but whatever, they're setting a record for their campaigns and it's only the start of the second day, so I'm guessing they usually have time to more fluidly/naturally roll these kinds of things out.
CaptKaruthors wrote: I'm well aware of how this thread goes. You have a large segment of people talking about a game they don't even play. They legitimately complain about the handling of the game, sure (all gripes about the handling of this game are legit)...but other than that. They don't play it. So they talk about a game they don't play. Which is odd. :shrug:
They manage to deliver the remaining ~thousand dollars worth (Canadian) of models they owe my friends and I, and it'll become a footnote.
Owing thousands of people hundreds of thousands of figures is kind of a pertinent detail here.
Also:
CaptKaruthors wrote: [My point is that a robotech model to an experience modeler isn't that big of a deal...and isn't all that difficult to assemble.
Uh, we have some *very* experienced modelers in here who have complained about the assembly issue. I admit to being a modeling novice, but unless you're declaring the entirety of this thread a bunch of minis noobs, you might want to slow your roll there, big guy. Being King Gak of RRT doesn't mean you're the only person here who has assembled an extensive figure library in the thread.
Building one was annoying, building a dozen was obnoxious, building all 300+ figures they were supposed to send me would've been a vastly more arduous ordeal. Though that's now a non-issue as I sold off most of mine and probably have around 50 or fewer left from the ~200 they sent in Wave One.
My friends have around 350 figures worth laying around between them, so if we ever actually decide to play, we won't be lacking for material.
Though I suspect it'd be played ironically at this point.
Given that wave one only started getting into hands roughly a year and a half ago, let's say 500'ish days, a game every 2 or 3 days does seem like a lot, but we lack further context. Were a bunch of them fast demos with a few models per side? I could see someone doing convention or store demo's playing "dozens of games" in a weekend, but at a skirmish scale, not 300+ points per side as is the alleged Standard. Maybe they're just fast players? A 'Standard Malifaux game is supposed to be like an hour or two, but my friends and I could take 3 or 4+ because it was a mixed game and social gathering.
Not that it really matters either way. 50, 100, 200, leagues or Pick Up Games or tournaments or demos, it's still infinitely more table time than I've put into it.
Given the raw hours for assembly I guess it seems a bit extreme unless RRT is like the only game that person played for the last 18 months, but it really could go either way.
No Hyperbole. In the beginning we'd only play with about 150pts of stuff. Those games take maybe 30 minutes tops. Especially if you lose your key models quickly. This has been the only game I've played regularly now since I stopped playing 40k. It's the only wargame I currently play. Assembly time for me is no different than how much time I spent assembling 40k models. Robotech models are fiddly, but that's about it. They are stupidly easy to assemble for an experienced modeler. Try assembling a FW titan....then you'll truly have a sense of how easy Robotech figs are to assemble compared to that. Bottom line is that I can easily say I've played more legitimate games of Robotech than any of the people on here.
I call shenanigans on those games. You have to understand the cap'n is a fan friend who defends everything palladium does on the PB boards. An just like Kevin they aren't afraid to over exaggerate the truth. Like how nmi and Liam do.
Dude you don't even know me. I'm not a fan friend of Kevin or PB. I don't even know the guy. Do you even play this game? If not, then your comment is dumb. Like you even know anything about this game other than complain about it. That's easy any and all off us have complained about it. I don't think you'll see me singing PB's praises about how they are handling this game.
Capt. Karuther's didn't know which post to respond too since they all are the same but this one will do, for starters I say the models are gak and garbage and I'm willing to bet i have assembled a whole lot more of these models then you have, as to FW Titans, been there done that , I have built a few of those and such and they are much easier then some of these gak that is called RRT mainly the Guardian and Batteloid, as to simplicity of building? I can knock out a 10-man Dark Angels Squad faster then I can knock out a couple of these Veritech units. the RRT stuff is irritating and irksome it is garbage and gak, so don't come lying to me cause i'm not buying it. also unlike you I have shown some of my work, where is your RRT models you have assembled? any pictures? or you just full of hot air like most PB fanbois ?
Also I can honestly say these are the most ungratifying and most difficult models I have ever assembled and that is coming from someone who has made thousands upon thousands of models (that means more then a couple thousands, not over a thousand.
CaptKaruthors wrote: My point is that a robotech model to an experience modeler isn't that big of a deal...and isn't all that difficult to assemble.
"A" Robotech model? You are absolutely right. But how many do you need to assemble to play? OTOH, I don't think they are that hard to assemble. I think the piece count and the actual pieces are stupid, and that unless you devote a lot of work to hide its defects the result is less than ideal.
They manage to deliver the remaining ~thousand dollars worth (Canadian) of models they owe my friends and I, and it'll become a footnote.
Owing thousands of people hundreds of thousands of figures is kind of a pertinent detail here.
Yeah, we all know that. We figured that out 120 pages ago. I'm talking about the comments regarding game play. Meh.
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Capt. Karuther's didn't know which post to respond too since they all are the same but this one will do, for starters I say the models are gak and garbage and I'm willing to bet i have assembled a whole lot more of these models then you have
Yeah, I was wondering when you'd show up to comment...LOL. I'm not debating on the quality of models. Overall, Robotech models fall somewhere in the middle. I've built tons of models too, so great I guess? But I've assembled far worse models...and for an experienced modeler...they are average difficulty at best. Overly tedious for no reason? Sure. But that doesn't mean the model is hard to assemble.
as to FW Titans, been there done that , I have built a few of those and such and they are much easier then some of these gak that is called RRT mainly the Guardian and Batteloid, as to simplicity of building?
I would say a titan is far more complex to assemble...lots of sanding, test fitting, gap filling, adding support anchors to the torsos, etc. Again, you aren't going to get any arguments on how many fiddly pieces there are to RTT models. But they aren't hard to assemble.
I can knock out a 10-man Dark Angels Squad faster then I can knock out a couple of these Veritech units.
So can any 12 year old that's been playing 40k for any significant amount of time. Marines are stupid easy to assemble. Those kits are geared that way for novice builders. Again, RTT models may be a challenge to a 12 year old novice...and in fact, is one of my personal gripes about the accessibility of the game for younger players. There's nothing I can do about that though. However, any experienced modeler looking at them will have no issues...if they are interested in the game. It's not that hard. Time consuming, yes...but that does not equal difficult.
the RRT stuff is irritating and irksome it is garbage and gak, so don't come lying to me cause i'm not buying it. also unlike you I have shown some of my work, where is your RRT models you have assembled? any pictures? or you just full of hot air like most PB fanbois ?
LOL. Lower your heart rate internet hero. What specifically am I lying about? That my claim that an expert modeler will have no problems assembling PB models? Or are you simply annoyed because I don't agree with your position? In the spectrum of all the models out there...Robotech models fall in the middle for difficulty. You make it sound like they are impossible. Also, I have posted many pictures of my models during actual games. They are widely accessible on the Robotech forums, on the unofficial RTTFB page, and some on PB forums. If you'd actually spend more time looking at that than attempting to engage in a flame war with me anytime I post on this thread...you might notice.
Also I can honestly say these are the most ungratifying and most difficult models I have ever assembled and that is coming from someone who has made thousands upon thousands of models (that means more then a couple thousands, not over a thousand.
Good for you. That's your opinion. In MY opinion these models are fiddly for a novice...but not all that challenging for an experienced modeler...and any experienced modeler interested in playing the game will have no problems getting their models assembled. What PB should have done was make the models in the starter box simpler to begin with. The other box sets could have kept the fiddliness that they have now...but to get a wider range of people interested their focus should have been on accessibility and that starts with simpler models for the novices. But that ship has sailed. No use complaining about it now.
CaptKaruthors wrote: My point is that a robotech model to an experience modeler isn't that big of a deal...and isn't all that difficult to assemble.
"A" Robotech model? You are absolutely right. But how many do you need to assemble to play? OTOH, I don't think they are that hard to assemble. I think the piece count and the actual pieces are stupid, and that unless you devote a lot of work to hide its defects the result is less than ideal.
For a basic 150pt game...not all that many. You could always play with one core force card in the beginning as well which means for UEDF that's 4 models if destroids..or 12 if you are playing Veritechs. For Zentraedi that would 7-12 models depending on what core card you chose.
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Uh, we have some *very* experienced modelers in here who have complained about the assembly issue. I admit to being a modeling novice, but unless you're declaring the entirety of this thread a bunch of minis noobs, you might want to slow your roll there, big guy.
The models are overly fiddly, yes. But not difficult. Two different things. That annoys some people greatly. Some slightly. But none-the-less...the actual process of assembling them isn't hard for an experienced modeler. If you have 300 zentraedi battle pods, 300 vertiechs to assemble...yeah that's daunting...that's because it's 300 models. I could say assembling 300 hormagaunts or 300 orks is equally daunting. At that point, it's less about the difficulty of the model...but the mundane repetition. I still have 50 battle pods still needing assembly, but I don't see myself building them soon. Not because they are fiddly or difficult..but I don't envision myself needing that many. I play 300pt games mostly. I don't need that many pods.
I call shenanigans on those games. You have to understand the cap'n is a fan friend who defends everything palladium does on the PB boards. An just like Kevin they aren't afraid to over exaggerate the truth. Like how nmi and Liam do.
[Dude you don't even know me. I'm not a fan friend of Kevin or PB. I don't even know the guy. Do you even play this game? If not, then your comment is dumb. Like you even know anything about this game other than complain about it. That's easy any and all off us have complained about it. I don't think you'll see me singing PB's praises about how they are handling this game.
]
Yes I have played the game. It's fun an all but I'm not going to put much more effort into RRT, not anymore. The whole battlepod conga line is silly. So yes I do know what I'm talking about. By the way stay classy guy. I'm sure calling people or their post dumb is why papa Kevin loves you. Please continue to defend PBs honor.
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