Dunklezahn wrote: Guardians viable en masse? You're obviously reading different rumors to me.
Guardians being BS4 is largely irrelevant if that 40kapoc post is accurate as it would appear they kept their pistol range firearms. The statistically average move and charge is 13", i hope the fluff references the fact Guardians are never issued more than a single magazine because in battle none of them ever live long enough to fire twice....
Im reading the rumors that says that a squad of (20) Guardians will kill a squad of 10 MEQs in one go. With 2 Scatter lasers they will also get twin linked overwatch quite often.
Shame if the Falcon is still an HS choice. Seeing as we haven't got this new transport that was rumoured (there would be a model out if we had) the Falcon would have been an ideal choice for a dedicated transport, giving more option for small aspect squads and freeing up the crowded HS slot at the same time.
Capamaru wrote: Well three glances still kill you so you aren't greatly postponing the inevitable...Not being able to assault out of it still makes it crap.
If I can go 18", get a 3+ cover save, reduce penetrating hits down to glances, still fire my weapon and next turn leap out with dire avengers or whatnot and shoot then I'll be happy.
This codex does seem to have a worrying number of good HS choices! Fire Prisms have got a boost, Dark Reapers have got a boost, War Walkers now have an invulnerable save I believe (should be fast attack damn it) and then there's the Wraithlord and Wraithknight!
For a race that supposedly relies on speed I hope the Fast Attack options are better, Vypers have got a slight boost, I hope Hawks have got a significant boost.
You planning on swinging the arse end of your 115pt Serpent toward the enemy are you? Their guns have a 12" range, your "90pt" Guardians (who are really 200+pts after Serpent) are going to get out, fire 1 shot that kills 3-4 marines assuming no cover and then explode into a pile of gore because they are point blank and made of paper.
Good luck spamming those Iranna, if you bring your entire troop contingent to bear you may even kill a whole tactical squad before your entire scoring force is wiped out.
Staying 12" range makes guardians just as worthless as they are now.
Putting Guardians in a transport does seem a waste, I'd use Dire Avengers in that situation. I'm still not sure where I'd use Guardians, any improvements they've got...have also gone to Dire Avengers.
Im reading the rumors that says that a squad of (20) Guardians will kill a squad of 10 MEQs in one go. With 2 Scatter lasers they will also get twin linked overwatch quite often.
At 12", for 180pts, good luck getting your guardians within 12" of anything. I play massed Guardians now, Ulthwe are the craftworld i chose, but i'm under no illusions that they aren't a god awful waste of points. For 180pts you get a full tactical squad plus weapons and a rhino. Half your guys will be dead from Bolter fire before you even get your first shot off.
The "standard" gun of 40k for better or worse is the boltgun, and those can be move and fired at twice your range and kill you on a 3.
Exactly Shami, the Avengers are tougher, better ranged, higher leadership and have the same kill power and can do it from out of charge range.
About the above.. oh must be totally impossible getting to shoot at anything with guardians... so the dire avengers can get to shoot at the marines then? Makes perfect sence. I guess I'll go buy avengers instead then since guardians wont EVER reach shooting range at anything..
Gravity wrote: About the above.. oh must be totally impossible getting to shoot at anything with guardians... so the dire avengers can get to shoot at the marines then? Makes perfect sence. I guess I'll go buy avengers instead then since guardians wont EVER reach shooting range at anything..
And now, luckily, Dire avengers are double the price they were - this is great news!
The Avengers with armour that works against basic weapon fire and with a 50% greater range than their Guardian colleagues, yes. The Guardians who can get danced by Shoota Boyz who cost 2/3 less per head? No.
On a very good day if you try and jam massed Guardians down your enemies throat (Which is so fluff destroying as to cause me physical pain) you may get a single shot.
A model with a 24" range rapid fire is going to get 3-4 shots on you before you get your first one (1-2 at long range and a double tap) Avengers will take 1-2 depending on their run roll and will definitely fire before the double tap.
Why is it fluff destroying when the fluff says Eldar is desperate and arms regular citizens with guns to fight? I can't see the fluff destruction fielding many guardians.
Im reading the rumors that says that a squad of (20) Guardians will kill a squad of 10 MEQs in one go. With 2 Scatter lasers they will also get twin linked overwatch quite often.
At 12", for 180pts, good luck getting your guardians within 12" of anything. I play massed Guardians now, Ulthwe are the craftworld i chose, but i'm under no illusions that they aren't a god awful waste of points. For 180pts you get a full tactical squad plus weapons and a rhino. Half your guys will be dead from Bolter fire before you even get your first shot off.
The "standard" gun of 40k for better or worse is the boltgun, and those can be move and fired at twice your range and kill you on a 3.
Exactly Shami, the Avengers are tougher, better ranged, higher leadership and have the same kill power and can do it from out of charge range.
What MEQ codex is that? 10 Tacticals will kill ~1.5 Guardians/per shooting phase when not in double tap range. Guardians will also get run and shoot further increasing their threat range. The Scatter lasers will kill ~1.5 MEQs each turn so even outside of the 12" range a guardian squad kills more points of MEQs than the MEQs kill of guardians...
A major factor that many people are forgetting about Guardians is that with a Shrouding Warlock, terrain, and a Scatter Laser they are actually tough enough to take a few hits and can reliably lay the hurt down on an opponent. Normal move, +run, -and- then shoot. Twin-linking shurikens with BS4 on a single Scatter Laser hit and AP2 on a 6 to wound. While not perfect (nothing ever is) I am happy with the buffs given to them.
Out of everything that I have seen the only thing that worries me are banshees. Wraithblades seem to have taken their job and seem to do it infinitely better, but that is solely due to being tough (which is the defining characteristic of a close-combat unit in 6th edition).
Also, has anyone else considered the "Falcon-Punch" yet? Flat outing a Falcon with Guide and Crystal Targeting Matrix on it behind a Leman Russ (or other suitably expensive tank) turn one or two in order to destroy it and completely throw the opponents plans into disarray. It would admittedly be a bit of an expensive gimmick, but the psychological effect would be priceless. With Holo-Fields the Falcon will have a 3+ cover save to boot.
All in all color me extremely excited. Very few true nerfs and many, many, many more buffs all said.
Also if Rangers have been nerfed (can only be made Pathfinders by the new character?) then Guardians may be better backfield objective holders in comparison. Despite their lack of range they have the heavy weapon plus Warlock buffing.
Fielding Guardians is fine, that's in line with the fluff, they make up most of the Eldar fighting force. Giving them assault pistols, bad armour and making kamikazi runs their go-to tactic is the problem.
They are a desperate and dying race who give the vast majority of their troops a weapon they need to run headlong through several volleys of weapon fire before they can even fire it... They have to be close enough to be set on fire to shoot. Eldar advanced technology seems to equate in GW's mind to "short weapon range". It's no wonder the DE developed Splinter tech if Catapults are what they had to hand.
If you have a precious resource like Eldar lives and you are forced to use them in battle without much training you keep them back from the thick of the fighting to support, not in front of your actual armoured trained soldiers like a meat shield.
Frankly I'm starting to miss the days they could get Lasguns...
Why not deploy them defensively, as in behind breat-works/Aegis Defense Lines?
It appears this may be their role now. I can see them being used in heavy terrain and with a warlock backing them up and the potential for two weapon-platforms, it would seem they would be best in defense as I can hardly imagine why or how they could be used offensively.
One thing that I've not seen mentioned in depth is the autarch.
I an on playing a reserve/flyer heavy list, with some swooping hawks. The reserve rolls will remain important, but does anyone know anything about the rumour of making an aspect into troops? Non scattering hawks as troops would be awesome. Anyone got anything for me?
I doubt we are going to see much of 20 man guardian blobs in competitive except for maybe one blob that could advance as a "you either shoot us or we wreck your " unit. Truth is now we have too many juicy options now that just makes 180 points seem less tantalizing, but I like my units to fly or be in the backfield with some gusto!
Is it jsut me or did anyone else notice the veil of tears buff? 2d6 x2? That is only a 24" max range of hitting! I am also going to experiment adding a farseer with the laughing mantle to the squad to make it one hard as hell to hit unit...till yo get into combat that is
tedurur wrote: What MEQ codex is that? 10 Tacticals will kill ~1.5 Guardians/per shooting phase when not in double tap range. Guardians will also get run and shoot further increasing their threat range. The Scatter lasers will kill ~1.5 MEQs each turn so even outside of the 12" range a guardian squad kills more points of MEQs than the MEQs kill of guardians...
DAngles codex, ie the 6th ed Marine standard.
Your maths is *way* off.
10 Marines armed with only boltguns will score:
10 Shots
6.66 Hits
4.44 kills
A BS4 Scatter laser will score:
4 shots
2.66 hits
2.22 Wounds
0.74 Marine kills
That tells quite a different story.
We don't know anything for sure Rohan, the people we have supposedly posting actual rules could still be trolling but we're close enough to release for them to have a lot of traction.
Belly wrote: One thing that I've not seen mentioned in depth is the autarch.
I an on playing a reserve/flyer heavy list, with some swooping hawks. The reserve rolls will remain important, but does anyone know anything about the rumour of making an aspect into troops? Non scattering hawks as troops would be awesome. Anyone got anything for me?
I think that was just a rumour, it seems quite unfluffy to me. I don't think Eldar really prioritize aspects like that.
GTKA666 wrote: I doubt we are going to see much of 20 man guardian blobs in competitive except for maybe one blob that could advance as a "you either shoot us or we wreck your " unit. Truth is now we have too many juicy options now that just makes 180 points seem less tantalizing, but I like my units to fly or be in the backfield with some gusto!
Is it jsut me or did anyone else notice the veil of tears buff? 2d6 x2? That is only a 24" max range of hitting! I am also going to experiment adding a farseer with the laughing mantle to the squad to make it one hard as hell to hit unit...till yo get into combat that is
The mantel removes IC so you can stick him into a squad...
tedurur wrote: What MEQ codex is that? 10 Tacticals will kill ~1.5 Guardians/per shooting phase when not in double tap range. Guardians will also get run and shoot further increasing their threat range. The Scatter lasers will kill ~1.5 MEQs each turn so even outside of the 12" range a guardian squad kills more points of MEQs than the MEQs kill of guardians...
DAngles codex, ie the 6th ed Marine standard.
Your maths is *way* off.
10 Marines armed with only boltguns will score:
10 Shots
6.66 Hits
4.44 kills
A BS4 Scatter laser will score:
4 shots
2.66 hits
2.22 Wounds
0.74 Marine kills
That tells quite a different story.
We don't know anything for sure Rohan, the people we have supposedly posting actual rules could still be trolling but we're close enough to release for them to have a lot of traction.
Ok, so what you meant when you said that "you get a full tactical squad+a rhino+weapons" was that weapons = one flamer and that you get the worst MEQ for that price.
Anyway, now you are comparing a 90pts unit to a 180pts unit on planet flat i.e no cover. A 20 Guardian squad would not come without a warlock which would give them a 3++ save. On top of that they would have 2 scatters....
But anyway, enough with that. Lets focus on more fun things
The haywire lance and the haywire laser weapons don't have the haywire USR?
Edit: Gotcha, they're actually the laser lance and scatter laser, nevermind.
I really like the idea of using an Avatar with the Crushing Blow and Fire Hail exarch powers. With Fleet and Battle Trance, he can really sprint down the table now, popping off a couple BS10 melta shots here and there. But this is assuming he's still an MC, and I don't see that in his rules?
You planning on swinging the arse end of your 115pt Serpent toward the enemy are you? Their guns have a 12" range, your "90pt" Guardians (who are really 200+pts after Serpent) are going to get out, fire 1 shot that kills 3-4 marines assuming no cover and then explode into a pile of gore because they are point blank and made of paper.
Good luck spamming those Iranna, if you bring your entire troop contingent to bear you may even kill a whole tactical squad before your entire scoring force is wiped out.
Staying 12" range makes guardians just as worthless as they are now.
I don't know where you're getting "spammed" or "abused to hell" from, but it's rather hyperbolic.
I said staple, meaning they will feature in almost all of my games. Bread is a staple food in Britain, doesn't mean it's all people will eat.
Now, you're missing some details:
Yes, the unit will most likely end up being ~200-250pts including the Wave Serpent tax.
However, the 12" range isn't so much of an issue when you can disembark 6", run and then shoot. Furthermore, with Vectored Engines the Wave Serpent can swing it's back armour around after shooting, leaving it nowhere near as vulnerable. Also, with Star Engines that Serpent can move 24" and still fire 2 weapons. Range should not be an issue come turn 2.
With an attached warlock the squad gets very usable. With at least guaranteed Shrouding from him and the abundance of cover they should be getting a 3+ cover save most of the time.
With guardians being a whole 4pts cheaper than DA, with almost identical stats and a potential better save, I will most certainly be using them.
I would be surprised to see reapers in 10 man units, I would imagine 3-5 still being the unit size.
I am looking forward to actually wanting to put my avatar on the board. Even with the rumoured drop to his invuln save, the extra stats and fleet plus warrior skills means he should be a much more attractive option. Plus an ML3 stock Farseer with wargear to lower the warp charge on his powers means that 2 Seers is no longer essential it would seem.
I'm not that well versed on Eldar fluff, but wouldn't an Aspect Warrior have been around for much longer than, say, a Space Marine? So wouldn't he more experienced in the art of whatever s/he's doing?
Even a Guardian would have been around for thousands of years, so wouldn't it make sense if he was better than a trained normal soldier?
The thing that people seem to miss is that BS isn't just natural abilty, advanced sightings/targetting systems and just shear amount of shots can make up for alot .
As to the Guardians still ahveing a 12 inch range, that won't change them much from what they are currently, no mater how much more punch they have been upgraded to.
Always amazes me how GW aproach a problem with a codex/army book, ignore the Gamers and just think of something completly random and tell everyone how great it is.
If they where a mechanic and you took your car in with a stuffed battery they would put on a sports muffler and spoiler kit and tell you it is much better. The battery however would still be stuffed.
Guardians know kung fu nowadays since on their spare time they practice shooting at pottery and breaking staff with naked hands.
I have the following question thought. If a unit of dire avengers is embarked in a serpant that has a twin linked bs4 scatter laser do they get the twin linked effect if the serpant shoots first with the scatter laser and hits?
Capamaru wrote: Guardians know kung fu nowadays since on their spare time they practice shooting at pottery and breaking staff with naked hands.
I have the following question thought. If a unit of dire avengers is embarked in a serpant that has a twin linked bs4 scatter laser do they get the twin linked effect if the serpant shoots first with the scatter laser and hits?
Has it got firepoints?, if so most probably based on the rumours I have read so far
All this debate over Guardians being WS/BS is pointless. It is what it is. Also, the Black Guardians of Ulthwe used to be WS or BS 4. As was pointed out, Eldar live far longer than monkeigh and follow many paths. Who knows? Maybe GW has progressed the story and fluff in some way.
Im reading the rumors that says that a squad of (20) Guardians will kill a squad of 10 MEQs in one go. With 2 Scatter lasers they will also get twin linked overwatch quite often.
At 12", for 180pts, good luck getting your guardians within 12" of anything. I play massed Guardians now, Ulthwe are the craftworld i chose, but i'm under no illusions that they aren't a god awful waste of points. For 180pts you get a full tactical squad plus weapons and a rhino. Half your guys will be dead from Bolter fire before you even get your first shot off.
The "standard" gun of 40k for better or worse is the boltgun, and those can be move and fired at twice your range and kill you on a 3.
Exactly Shami, the Avengers are tougher, better ranged, higher leadership and have the same kill power and can do it from out of charge range.
What MEQ codex is that? 10 Tacticals will kill ~1.5 Guardians/per shooting phase when not in double tap range. Guardians will also get run and shoot further increasing their threat range. The Scatter lasers will kill ~1.5 MEQs each turn so even outside of the 12" range a guardian squad kills more points of MEQs than the MEQs kill of guardians...
Are scatter lasers not heavy?, you wont be able to shoot and run with them based on the rumoers so far.
Check your fellow posters in favour of Guardians Iranna, those are both exactly what was said.
Your paying 200+ points for a single shot, after which the scoring part and 120pts of the unit is toast. You cannot in all seriousness expect a 10man unit with the durability of guardians to survive after dropping within 12" of the enemy, it's a suicide run.
Ok, so what you meant when you said that "you get a full tactical squad+a rhino+weapons" was that weapons = one flamer and that you get the worst MEQ for that price.
Anyway, now you are comparing a 90pts unit to a 180pts unit on planet flat i.e no cover. A 20 Guardian squad would not come without a warlock which would give them a 3++ save. On top of that they would have 2 scatters....
No i'm comparing it to 180pts of guardians, 20 guardians is 180pts not 90pts and if those marines get 2 shots and a double they sustain 17.6 casualties before they get in catapult range. Assuming the Warlock has been buffed to 3++ he saves the unit from 2 wounds before he expires and takes all his buffs with him. Your also likely weighing in at 200+pts including Warlock and even more with scatters. If they do have a Warlock it lets say they have cover, that's what, 12 dead guardians and 2 break tests before they shoot instead? Add in cover and unless it's the Warlock you're losing speed on difficult terrain.
Also, the worst MEQ? it's a standard 6th ed tactical marine, don't try and bill them as bad value.
A pure shooting unit with a 12" range is bad by any measure you choose to make. There is practically no troop unit in the game that unit is going to win a firefight with over the course of a game. They carry practically zero threat until they get close enough to get slapped in the face. Were they 50pts for 10 you could afford such a distraction, at almost double that it's just not a valid option. Your opponent has 2-3 turns of firing before he has to even think about them. You've completely surrendered initiative to the enemy and have to chase him around.
Im reading the rumors that says that a squad of (20) Guardians will kill a squad of 10 MEQs in one go. With 2 Scatter lasers they will also get twin linked overwatch quite often.
At 12", for 180pts, good luck getting your guardians within 12" of anything. I play massed Guardians now, Ulthwe are the craftworld i chose, but i'm under no illusions that they aren't a god awful waste of points. For 180pts you get a full tactical squad plus weapons and a rhino. Half your guys will be dead from Bolter fire before you even get your first shot off.
The "standard" gun of 40k for better or worse is the boltgun, and those can be move and fired at twice your range and kill you on a 3.
Exactly Shami, the Avengers are tougher, better ranged, higher leadership and have the same kill power and can do it from out of charge range.
What MEQ codex is that? 10 Tacticals will kill ~1.5 Guardians/per shooting phase when not in double tap range. Guardians will also get run and shoot further increasing their threat range. The Scatter lasers will kill ~1.5 MEQs each turn so even outside of the 12" range a guardian squad kills more points of MEQs than the MEQs kill of guardians...
Are scatter lasers not heavy?, you wont be able to shoot and run with them based on the rumoers so far.
I think the fluff justification for the guardian buff is that they are thousands of years old so even being part time soldiers have built up a lot of combat experience.
Unfortunately, this fluff doesn't translate well to the professional soldiers of the craftworlds as they now have the same WSBS & I as the civilian soldiers.
Dunklezahn wrote: Check your fellow posters in favour of Guardians Iranna, those are both exactly what was said.
Your paying 200+ points for a single shot, after which the scoring part and 120pts of the unit is toast. You cannot in all seriousness expect a 10man unit with the durability of guardians to survive after dropping within 12" of the enemy, it's a suicide run.
Ok, so what you meant when you said that "you get a full tactical squad+a rhino+weapons" was that weapons = one flamer and that you get the worst MEQ for that price.
Anyway, now you are comparing a 90pts unit to a 180pts unit on planet flat i.e no cover. A 20 Guardian squad would not come without a warlock which would give them a 3++ save. On top of that they would have 2 scatters....
No i'm comparing it to 180pts of guardians, 20 guardians is 180pts not 90pts and if those marines get 2 shots and a double they sustain 17.6 casualties before they get in catapult range. Assuming the Warlock has been buffed to 3++ he saves the unit from 2 wounds before he expires and takes all his buffs with him. Your also likely weighing in at 200+pts including Warlock and even more with scatters. If they do have a Warlock it lets say they have cover, that's what, 12 dead guardians and 2 break tests before they shoot instead? Add in cover and unless it's the Warlock you're losing speed on difficult terrain.
Also, the worst MEQ? it's a standard 6th ed tactical marine, don't try and bill them as bad value.
A pure shooting unit with a 12" range is bad by any measure you choose to make. There is practically no troop unit in the game that unit is going to win a firefight with over the course of a game. They carry practically zero threat until they get close enough to get slapped in the face. Were they 50pts for 10 you could afford such a distraction, at almost double that it's just not a valid option. Your opponent has 2-3 turns of firing before he has to even think about them. You've completely surrendered initiative to the enemy and have to chase him around.
Yes, DAMEQs are worse than vanilla and SW... WTF would I place the warlock in front of the unit? He gives shrouded to the whole unit so the whole squad will have a 3++ save vs bolters. 20 Guardians will have 2 weapon platforms you are only calculating with 1 scatter laser....But as I said, its pointless to arguee in hyperbole land so this will be my last comment on the guardian issue.
tedurur wrote: What MEQ codex is that? 10 Tacticals will kill ~1.5 Guardians/per shooting phase when not in double tap range. Guardians will also get run and shoot further increasing their threat range. The Scatter lasers will kill ~1.5 MEQs each turn so even outside of the 12" range a guardian squad kills more points of MEQs than the MEQs kill of guardians...
DAngles codex, ie the 6th ed Marine standard.
Your maths is *way* off.
10 Marines armed with only boltguns will score:
10 Shots
6.66 Hits
4.44 kills
A BS4 Scatter laser will score:
4 shots
2.66 hits
2.22 Wounds
0.74 Marine kills
That tells quite a different story.
We don't know anything for sure Rohan, the people we have supposedly posting actual rules could still be trolling but we're close enough to release for them to have a lot of traction.
I like the new guardians, let me present a scenario...
11 Guardians with scatter laser in a wave serpent move up, guardians get out and shoot at MEQ.
As you've said the scatter laser will do 0.74, guardians are now twin-linked with no need for psychic powers.
Of the initial 22 shots 14.67 will hit, of the rerolled shots 4.89 will hit for a total of 19.56 hits.
Now for wounding taking into account the new rules for shuriken weapons:
Of the 19.56 hits 3.26 will end up being a 6 so autowounds no save, and the marines will have to take saves against 6.52 wounds, of which they won't save 2.17.
So in total that is 0.74+3.26+2.17 = 6.17 dead marines. If you add in a warlock with the -1 to armour save that becomes 7.56 dead marines accounting for his extra shuriken pistol shot.
Real world accounting for everything including chance to fail psychic power and deny the witch it is: 0.74+3.41+2.17 so wounds 6.32 wounds with a 52% chance it will be boosted to 7.56 wounds.
Dire Avengers on the other hand are 4 pts more expensive, have the ranged bonus, no scatterlaser, same bs and cannot take warlocks in the squad.
So their mathhammer is 16 hits, 4.47 wounds base, adding in an exarch with 2x catapults and bladestorm if it's still there it's 26.17 hits, 7.26 wounds.
So if guardians get the power off they do .3 more wounds than bladestorming DA, if not they do 0.94 less wounds.
Price wise 12 guardians plus wave serpent is 223 pts +15 for scatterlaser (238)
11 guardians plus warlock and WS is 249 pts + 15 for scatterlaser (264)
12 DA plus wave serpent is 271 pts
11 DA plus exarch is 291 pts (if bladestorm is the same price as last codex)
So It seems base guardians in a wave serpent is more point efficient than dire avengers with exarch for killing space marines, funnily enough vanilla DA is the least efficient. Of course this is all mathhammer so YMMV
Also don't forget the upgrade that allows vehicles to swivel after shooting now.
Dunklezahn wrote: Check your fellow posters in favour of Guardians Iranna, those are both exactly what was said.
Your paying 200+ points for a single shot, after which the scoring part and 120pts of the unit is toast. You cannot in all seriousness expect a 10man unit with the durability of guardians to survive after dropping within 12" of the enemy, it's a suicide run.
I'm confused: What single shot?
3+ cover sounds quire durable to me in all honesty. Even 5+ cover is still okay.
Capamaru wrote: Guardians know kung fu nowadays since on their spare time they practice shooting at pottery and breaking staff with naked hands.
I have the following question thought. If a unit of dire avengers is embarked in a serpant that has a twin linked bs4 scatter laser do they get the twin linked effect if the serpant shoots first with the scatter laser and hits?
Has it got firepoints?, if so most probably based on the rumours I have read so far
I don't think WS will have fire points but what if avengers disembark and the serpant shoots at an enemy unit before the dire avengers
Hm, flak missiles for the Reapers might be fun. I'll have to go check out my basement and see if I actually kept the small horde of the things I ended up with. (I bought someone's bitz years ago... dang thing had something like 20 reaper bodies in it. No guns, but lots of bodies.)
Dunklezahn wrote: Check your fellow posters in favour of Guardians Iranna, those are both exactly what was said.
Your paying 200+ points for a single shot, after which the scoring part and 120pts of the unit is toast. You cannot in all seriousness expect a 10man unit with the durability of guardians to survive after dropping within 12" of the enemy, it's a suicide run.
I'm confused: What single shot?
3+ cover sounds quire durable to me in all honesty. Even 5+ cover is still okay.
Iranna.
I think he means you'll only get one round of shooting off.
The 10 x Reaper squad will make me a very happy player if we get it.
*Says the man who has still got 4 squads of them from 3rd ed when they were troops *
3+ cover sounds quire durable to me in all honesty. Even 5+ cover is still okay.
Iranna.
That assumes you've been able to drop into a position where you can fire your 12" range gun at the desired target *and* still be in cover without bunching up too badly and without allowing someone with an 8" range plus 6" move flamer to slaughter the entire unit. It also assumes you pass any psi test you may have to make and that they are immune to things like runic weapons, that your transport isn't damage along the way or your enemy aren't Eldar or Tau, Slaaneshi, or that they don't just charge you...
You are having to make the stars align to get any versatility out of the unit and while if you can pull all those things together they are okay, it's too many caveats to make them useful. Those Guardians are dead next turn, only difference is the flavor.
Use Avengers and you remove the charge threat, the flamer threat and any AP5 or worse cover ignoring threat, the risk of failing psi checks and you have more place you can stand and still attack your desired target. They are simply a better unit fulfilling the same battlefield role.
Crimson wrote: So how are people feeling about Storm Guardians now as they have buffed stats and can take two power swords?
That depends on if you can assault out of a Serpent and if the potential to throw -1 WS on people with psi powers is true. With both those things they might be okay if they are cheap but if they have to stand around outside for a turn 6-18" from the enemy they are going to get hosed even with a Shroud-Lock. They have the same problems as Defenders, they have to get close and are far too vulnerable to basic weapons and stuff like flamers.
You're probably better off paying more and getting Wraithblades.
Gods, looks like we're gonna drag up every panzee whine from the last 15 years. It's pretty obvious that most Eldar players secretly really want to play Marines.
The only pooh unit right now is banshees... Scorpions might be able to make it walking into assault, harlies are kinda the same with the veil power getting
nicer: (veil of teirs: blessing, every enemy shooting on the fateseer and his unit has to roll 2d6 x 2 to see if they are within range. if they are not they
cannot decide to shoot on a different target) and wraithblades can deliver quite a punch since they are tough as nails.
Do we know what the banshee mask does and if the exarch two hand weapon is AP2? If they are not able to assault out of a serpant then they will collect
lord_blackfang wrote: Gods, looks like we're gonna drag up every panzee whine from the last 15 years. It's pretty obvious that most Eldar players secretly really want to play Marines.
Well that's just wrong. I would probably rate Space Marines second last on my list of armies that I'd play, with Eldar at the top. The fluff bores me and the units bore me. I'd take our old codex over the new space marine codex any day, which makes it even more awesome now that we have a new codex that will kick SM players ass.
Does anyone know what the banshee mask does in this edition? It's unclear in the rules leak. Since jain-zar's mask in minus 5 in/ws on the enemy when she charges, perhaps something similar for a regular banshee mask? At 15 points each, this may be workable. Also, executioner is now ap2 (yay)
lord_blackfang wrote: Gods, looks like we're gonna drag up every panzee whine from the last 15 years. It's pretty obvious that most Eldar players secretly really want to play Marines.
I'm sorry for wanting Banshees to actually reach combat. You know, be a functional unit.
They could even do something like say the banshee mask disallows overwatch. It would still be flipping hard to get them into combat but it would be a step in the right direction.
The -5 I on the charge is kind the same with the previous ability they had with their initiative going up to 10 (maybe going before GK quicksilver). Exarch being AP2 is nice since she does most of the killing but the abilities suck... why wouldn't she want to attack on a challenge and gain a +3 inv save?
Capamaru wrote: The -5 I on the charge is kind the same with the previous ability they had with their initiative going up to 10 (maybe going before GK quicksilver). Exarch being AP2 is nice since she does most of the killing but the abilities suck... why wouldn't she want to attack on a challenge and gain a +3 inv save?
shamikebab wrote: They could even do something like say the banshee mask disallows overwatch. It would still be flipping hard to get them into combat but it would be a step in the right direction.
This would be a good start. There is even a precedent for it with the chaos dirge caster. I would also like to see a rule or upgrade that lets them assault from a vehicle, either an assault ramp for the wave serpent or an ability or exarch power for the unit.
On a side note, does the battle focus ability (run and shoot) do the same thing for every unit that has it or do different units get different bonuses from it?
Capamaru wrote: The -5 I on the charge is kind the same with the previous ability they had with their initiative going up to 10 (maybe going before GK quicksilver). Exarch being AP2 is nice since she does most of the killing but the abilities suck... why wouldn't she want to attack on a challenge and gain a +3 inv save?
If you were fighting an incredibly good ccIC, she can basically challenge him so he can't kill your normal banshees with his ap2 or 3 weapon then she can either go for the disarm to take away his weapon bonus or if he has more than 1 weapon she can use saving grace to deny him wounds for combat resolution. At ws 5 a good few IC will be hitting on 4s some on 3s and then wounding on 3s or 2s. So say 4 attacks 2 hit, 2 wound she has to make 2 3++ which isn't too hard. Personally I would just go for the kill with disarm unless it was some high toughness MC
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Good points by people concerning guardians, but what the game needs is a spinal tap turn it up to 11 option for the really elite, elite units! Otherwise, everybody will be running around with BS4, and where's the fun in that!
What's a spinal tap?
It's referring to a movie that came out in 1984. "This Is Spinal Tap" was a movie about a British heavy metal band of the same name making a come back tour in America. The scene below explains the "turn it up to 11" that he was talking about....
Not trying to derail the thread, just answering the question.
lobos wrote: Indeed S 7 will pen a lot of side armour with a lucky roll AP1 on a six.
Always was a fun toy for cowering MEQ behind cover.
Guys, remember the FAQ already has an errata for the Nightspinner's weapon reducing it to STR 6.
The FAQ appears to refer to the support weapon battery version of the weapon as given in the back of the book. The 'rumours' give this profile correctly. I'd say the Nightspinner looks likely to get S8 against vehicles.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Good points by people concerning guardians, but what the game needs is a spinal tap turn it up to 11 option for the really elite, elite units! Otherwise, everybody will be running around with BS4, and where's the fun in that!
What's a spinal tap?
It's referring to a movie that came out in 1984. "This Is Spinal Tap" was a movie about a British heavy metal band of the same name making a come back tour in America. The scene below explains the "turn it up to 11" that he was talking about....
Not trying to derail the thread, just answering the question.
Thank you for explaining! And for the hilarious clip
From what I've seen, they're basically 16pts a model, come with scatterless deepstrike, skyleap and the grenade pack, which now ignores cover and changes size by how many Hawks there are... at 5 it's a 3" S4 AP 4 blast, at 6+ its a Large blast.
I'd say definitely got better, though they compete hard with how much Spiders and Shining Spears have got better too.
Not to mention the flyers are Fast Attack, too. Looks like a lot of hard choices for Heavy and Fast Attack - I love when codex have multiple options per slot that are viable. I am so excited.
Considering what they have done for reapers, spears, hawks, scorpions and spiders the least they could have done is given banshees the ability to function properly, especially as almost every eldar player owns them.
Does anybody know if there are any characters we can attach to Banshees to give them Outflank? We'd still need cover to reach combat effectively, and it wouldn't be the BEST fix...but it seems the better fixes are not in GWs plan.
Khaine wrote: Considering what they have done for reapers, spears, hawks, scorpions and spiders the least they could have done is given banshees the ability to function properly, especially as almost every eldar player owns them.
Khaine wrote: Considering what they have done for reapers, spears, hawks, scorpions and spiders the least they could have done is given banshees the ability to function properly, especially as almost every eldar player owns them.
I'm always at a loss of why GW makes rules that causes units to be non-functional in the game. You would think they realize that banshees are completely awful and give them anything to make them usable again. Unfortunately so many units are added to books that just plain suck, I don't understand it from a game design perspective yet I've learned to expect it.
There is no reason to have obviously horrible units, it's just lazy writing.. just no way to change it. Could have made it so Banshees treat all vehicles as assault vehicles and there, they function again.. even if not very well considering it's not an assault edition.
shamikebab wrote: Well it is meant to be Eldar's strength. If they were any lower then the random psychic powers would just cripple Eldar.
Well Warlocks did get nerfed, you can take conceal always but the rest of the abilities are random and you get 1 shot at rolling it and hoping to roll a 4, and you know for a fact that warlock is going to get gunned down as fast as possible if he can reduce marine armour. I'm not overly pleased with it as you cant rely on them getting good powers that work with your list, and the psyker defense is gone as far as shutting down enemy powers. You get half the powers with a Farseer every game, but more then half the fate powers are junk.
I too am thinking that more Warlocks might be required to spread the powers around the army. Does anyone know if they are still restricted on the units they can join?
I too am thinking that more Warlocks might be required to spread the powers around the army. Does anyone know if they are still restricted on the units they can join?
I5 yes, 2W no. According to the leaked data for the seer council.
17 guardians with a scatterlaser plus a warlock with -1 to armour save will kill a 10 man taq squad in 1 round of shooting for 203 pts, thats a kill worth 160 pts
If you don't have the warlock it takes 20 to kill 9.65 so 1 marine might be left he might not and the cost is 195 pts.
Now the only problem is getting them in range I'm thinking 11 in a wave serpent with a warlock will be very good for clearing objectives late game, if you see my post further up 11 plus a warlock can do 6 to 7 marine deaths on average in 1 turn of shooting, this along with the added survivability of wave serpents will cement guardians with a warlock in a wave serpent as my troop of choice.
I too am thinking that more Warlocks might be required to spread the powers around the army. Does anyone know if they are still restricted on the units they can join?
Except that Warlocks don't autocast anymore and are ld8 according to the rumors. Leak says they can only join guardian units or seer council. Spiritseers join wraith units. No restrictions mentioned on Farseers.
I believe powers are rolled before deployment so yes.
Otherwise you have little to no way of making a constructive plan for your warlocks and their squads. Which, as the most psyker heavy army in the game (probably), would be stupid.
I assume as well now that powers are random, warlocks are only picked as an add on to the farseer or other HQ like the necron royal court and not as squad leaders.
That way you get to roll all their powers and then assign them to units.
rohansoldier wrote: I assume as well now that powers are random, warlocks are only picked as an add on to the farseer or other HQ like the necron royal court and not as squad leaders.
That way you get to roll all their powers and then assign them to units.
That's pretty good imo, especially as the powers are much better than previously, randomness aside. They could do with being 30 points though.
Edit: The number 4 power is very dangerous, it will hit 4+ and 2+ save so hard.
I think on foot I'd rather have DA for the longer range and better armor, but then Guardians can take heavy weapon platforms and have warlocks with them.
In transports I think it's a toss up. 12" range is so bad though.
Bikes are prob better than both... and I don't mind the old models so much. I do mind the old flight stands.
I have to admit that I'm excited that I'll be able to use my 5 foot Warlocks again if these rumors are true. That and one squad of Guardians will seed its way back into my lists it seems. :-)
The first thought that came to my mind when hearing spiritseers join wraithguard is they need to make some more spiritseer models. With only one available and heavily investing in wraith armies with this release I see a lot of Warlocks or Farseers proxying as spiritseers.
PalmerC wrote: The first thought that came to my mind when hearing spiritseers join wraithguard is they need to make some more spiritseer models. With only one available and heavily investing in wraith armies with this release I see a lot of Warlocks or Farseers proxying as spiritseers.
Similar to the Necron's Cryptek-shortage (model-wise).
An odd move. I don't really get why they didn't beef up the Farseer model with another variant head and one or two variant staffs to make it a Farseer/Spiritseer combined-kit.
I honestly don't see a problem with proxy spiritseers as the fluff fits that a Spiritseer is just a specialized Farseer.
Even with the casting requirement on the Warlocks, the availablity of more powerful abilities and then spreading them out to the army far outweights their new ability to fail to provide the bonus some of the time...
...also their head will explode the first time they peril...but that's just FUN!
No, a spiritseer is only protected by finecast rune armor. Standard rune armor is insufficient. This armor is expensive for the eldar and costs 2x as many resources to construct.
Looks to me like the main difference is the Spiritseer carrier a Witch Staff whilst Warlocks carry blades. Easy enough to convert if you have staff bits.
I think the head on the SS is a big difference as it looks like all the wraiths etc. If you could get your hands on the SS head bit and the wraithbone for the back lots of cool conversions could be done with the existing farseer and warlock models I think.
Kirasu wrote: No, a spiritseer is only protected by finecast rune armor. Standard rune armor is insufficient. This armor is expensive for the eldar and costs 2x as many resources to construct.
Really? Wow, that is a lot of resources. Sounds like the eldar might have to construct additional pylons.
steinerp wrote: It will be gimmicky but if the points are right an autarch with the laughing god mantle on a jetbike has real potential.
I think the real winner of the HQ section is Illic as long as he has the independant character rule. Being able to infiltrate anywhere and sniping characters from 120" away is insane let alone bringing in a squad of pathfinders who precision shot on a 5+. Pesky Herald of Tzeentch with grimoire? GONE. DA Banner got you down? GONE. Baron hiding out in DE beastpack? GONE. Coteaz creating a no deepstrike pocket? GONE. Ethereal/Fireblade/Tau Commander handing out too may perks GONE...
If he can join other units then there is the ultimate delivery system for banshees wraithblades/guard.
steinerp wrote: It will be gimmicky but if the points are right an autarch with the laughing god mantle on a jetbike has real potential.
I think the real winner of the HQ section is Illic as long as he has the independant character rule. Being able to infiltrate anywhere and sniping characters from 120" away is insane let alone bringing in a squad of pathfinders who precision shot on a 5+. Pesky Herald of Tzeentch with grimoire? GONE. DA Banner got you down? GONE. Baron hiding out in DE beastpack? GONE. Coteaz creating a no deepstrike pocket? GONE. Ethereal/Fireblade/Tau Commander handing out too may perks GONE...
If he can join other units then there is the ultimate delivery system for banshees wraithblades/guard.
Unless he has a rule like the vinidcare a simple 2plus LOS will fix most of that, best bet is to snipe characters (and the banners for sure) and special/heavy weapons. Plus if you are anywhere like 120inches away, thats a big table and should have a lot of line of sight blocking terrain on it!.
He does sound good if used correctly though but its still a single shot
steinerp wrote: It will be gimmicky but if the points are right an autarch with the laughing god mantle on a jetbike has real potential.
I think the real winner of the HQ section is Illic as long as he has the independant character rule. Being able to infiltrate anywhere and sniping characters from 120" away is insane let alone bringing in a squad of pathfinders who precision shot on a 5+. Pesky Herald of Tzeentch with grimoire? GONE. DA Banner got you down? GONE. Baron hiding out in DE beastpack? GONE. Coteaz creating a no deepstrike pocket? GONE. Ethereal/Fireblade/Tau Commander handing out too may perks GONE...
If he can join other units then there is the ultimate delivery system for banshees wraithblades/guard.
From what I read banshees remain craps, since acrobatics does nothing new , WS does not become an assault vehicle and on top of that banshees seem to have lost grenades :-(
Capamaru wrote: From what I read banshees remain craps, since acrobatics does nothing new , WS does not become an assault vehicle and on top of that banshees seem to have lost grenades :-(
Capamaru wrote: From what I read banshees remain craps, since acrobatics does nothing new , WS does not become an assault vehicle and on top of that banshees seem to have lost grenades :-(
But at least they got those fantastic new plastic miniatures... oh wait. nm
Oh they are elite. They just require the right scenario:
Be 13" or less from a unit of Armor 3+ models.
It be your turn.
Have a power boost your strength or allow you to re-roll failed wounds of some type.
Have your opponent forget that Overwatch exists.
Always kill more models than your opponent so you don't run like hell.
So essentially phil has buffed all the other aspects considerably (-dragons), while banshees are essentially the same, but one point less and without grenades
Khaine wrote: So essentially phil has buffed all the other aspects considerably (-dragons), while banshees are essentially the same, but one point less and without grenades
Yes, correct. Am I the only one that suspects somebody walked over to Phil after he was done with the Banshees, redacted everything he did to make them useful...nodded and pointed to his big GW badge...and walked away?
Khaine wrote: So essentially phil has buffed all the other aspects considerably (-dragons), while banshees are essentially the same, but one point less and without grenades
Looks that way. Nobody has mentioned the now 10 man Dark Reaper squad that apparently has str8 ap3 regular shots and flakk skyfire ammo. I'm sure somebody will park 30 of these on a Skyshield Landing Pad to get the 4++ for the "Come at me Brah" lulz....
The dark reapers are going to be paying extra points on top of their not inconsiderable starting cost to be able to use krak or flakk. Don't assume it's all free on a 30pt model.
Hulksmash wrote: The dark reapers are going to be paying extra points on top of their not inconsiderable starting cost to be able to use krak or flakk. Don't assume it's all free on a 30pt model.
Alright updated my list of Raziel/Souba info, up to the Elite section now. Gonna be working on it all day as the info takes time to reorganize and "translate" all this info.
Don't think spiders changed all that much either did they? In fact, aren't they slower? Or does their jetpack have a 12" movement rule somewhere?
I'm just happy scorpions got improved. Karrandras will be near unkillable with a unit of scorpions. Only wish there was some way to make aspects troops as elites and heavy are both going to be very difficult to choose between.
Except their Masks no longer increase their initiative, they lower the opponent's. So you're at best going at the same time when you charge through terrain. That's terrible for a T3 4+ unit - even before you count them getting shot at before assaulting.
Why are people complaining about Banshees without knowing what they do yet?
For all we know the Banshee Mask acts as grenades (like it used to), disallows Overwatch (makes flavorful sense), and acts like Jain Zar's mask and lowers the enemy's WS as well (increases Banshee survivability). All wild guesses, of course.
Nvs wrote: Don't think spiders changed all that much either did they? In fact, aren't they slower? Or does their jetpack have a 12" movement rule somewhere?
I'm just happy scorpions got improved. Karrandras will be near unkillable with a unit of scorpions. Only wish there was some way to make aspects troops as elites and heavy are both going to be very difficult to choose between.
I think Warp Spiders are just different.
Being jetpack infantry now means they move 6" and are allowed an assault move of 6". This is for all jetpack infantry but they still have their Warp Generator listed in their wargear.
We could be looking at either 6" move and 2D6" assault move OR
6" move and 6"+2D6" assault move which would be seem totally crazy BUT actually bring them back to a similar level as before. 24" potential range just spread out differently through the phases.
Absolutionis wrote: Why are people complaining about Banshees without knowing what they do yet?
For all we know the Banshee Mask acts as grenades (like it used to), disallows Overwatch (makes flavorful sense), and acts like Jain Zar's mask and lowers the enemy's WS as well (increases Banshee survivability). All wild guesses, of course.
Because the leaks are saying acrobatic is just counter attack, and Banshee Mask is -5I while Jain Zar Mask is -5I and -5WS. Even if all this is wrong ...
They still die to shooting before getting into combat.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Good points by people concerning guardians, but what the game needs is a spinal tap turn it up to 11 option for the really elite, elite units! Otherwise, everybody will be running around with BS4, and where's the fun in that!
What's a spinal tap?
It's referring to a movie that came out in 1984. "This Is Spinal Tap" was a movie about a British heavy metal band of the same name making a come back tour in America. The scene below explains the "turn it up to 11" that he was talking about....
Not trying to derail the thread, just answering the question.
Exactly what I meant! I've long argued that the best of the best need that 11 option. Where's GW's credibility in this matter?
Anyway, back OT. Are Rangers are good in this edition? Got a load to sell!
Sadly the Banshees portray the problem that has plagued GW forever. The designers don't really play the game like everyone else does. If they did, they'd notice that the inherent problem for fragile short ranged Space Elves is the delivery method. If you can't assault out of transports or you can't infiltrate near the enemy while being fleet, or you're not otherwise ridiculously fast like 6"+D6"+12" for cavalry last edition, you're simply never going to see combat.
You don't fix Banshees by giving them a one or two points price reduction. You fix them by buffing the Wave Serpent or the Falcon with assault ramps or like someone suggested give them a special rule that allows them to treat transports as assault vehicles. It's not like Banshees are some uber beatstick unit from hell even when they do make it into combat, and we're (still) supposed to believe they can shrug off one shooting phase of firepower and an overwatch. It's just bad.
Many of the Aspect Warriors are from over a decade old editions where specialised combat units like that could function because transports worked for assault units. The whole unit concept (glasscannon assault unit that requires a transport) has been dead for years but Phil Kelly just hasn't noticed.
I'm not fond of the internal balance of this codex from the sound of things. Not only is heavy support way, way too crowded, but basically all of the other special slots (fast attack and elites) is filled with unfixed garbage. By garbage I mean elf units that suffer from elf problems while the designers are too lazy to fix them. The same problems plague Dark Eldar too. Even that army is played for the vehicles and some of them (Venoms) can't be gotten without attached pointy eared gimps. The Guardian / Dire Avenger debate isn't even close, the Guardians win by a mile because their firepower is most of the time better but they come with a ton more wounds for the same price and thus perform the objectives role better.
I hope those craftworld specific books contain in-game rules that fix the force organisation log jams and hopefully add some other special rules to make the army more interesting. I don't think anything's changed so far.
I can't believe Acrobatic is just counter attack, they'd just give them counter attack surely? Are there any other examples in 6th of GW giving a unit an existing rule but renaming it?
Therion wrote: Sadly the Banshees portray the problem that has plagued GW forever. The designers don't really play the game like everyone else does. If they did, they'd notice that the inherent problem for fragile short ranged Space Elves is the delivery method. If you can't assault out ot transports or you can't infiltrate near the enemy while being fleet, or you're not otherwise ridiculously fast like 6"+D6"+12" for cavalry last edition, you're simply never going to see combat.
The whole unit concept (glasscannon assault unit that requires a transport) has been dead for years but Phil Kelly just hasn't noticed.
It really does seem that way. You would think that once in awhile they would walk into the game room at Nottingham HQ and just watch how their consumers are actually playing the game. Or heaven forbid play a game against one of the visitors. See what they have fun doing and not doing. Simple anecodotal evidence would go a long way.
shamikebab wrote: I can't believe Acrobatic is just counter attack, they'd just give them counter attack surely? Are there any other examples in 6th of GW giving a unit an existing rule but renaming it?
Not straight up, usually its a combo. Like the rule DA got that gave Stubborn and PE Chaos Space Marines.
shamikebab wrote: I can't believe Acrobatic is just counter attack, they'd just give them counter attack surely? Are there any other examples in 6th of GW giving a unit an existing rule but renaming it?
I wouldn't be shocked if it gave them Counter-Attack and the ability to assault after running.
Therion wrote: Many of the Aspect Warriors are from over a decade old editions where specialised combat units like that could function because transports worked for assault units. The whole unit concept (glasscannon assault unit that requires a transport) has been dead for years but Phil Kelly just hasn't noticed.
I'm not fond of the internal balance of this codex from the sound of things. Not only is heavy support way, way too crowded, but basically all of the other special slots (fast attack and elites) is filled with unfixed garbage.
Kinda agree......as much as I like what they've done to Guardians and the Vehicles, I feel that Aspects have got the short end again. I mean, I like Fire Dragons ok even with the points boost but for their job (Serpent deployed anti-tank), but they're competing too much with Wraithguard now:
Dragons: 110pts base for 5 models, T3 s8 ap1 melta
Wraithguard: 160pts base for 5 models, but T6 s10 ap1 and scoring.
Banshees on jetbikes or replace swooping hawks with swooping Banshes would be absolutely terrifying. That would be a unit i would like to see.
As it is, Harlies do it better and have better rules currently.
Lets just wait and see how the rules come out. I stocked up on Spiders as the FA choices outside of the new fliers was all i had room for. I am excited to see the new rules.
Darge wrote: Alright updated my list of Raziel/Souba info, up to the Elite section now. Gonna be working on it all day as the info takes time to reorganize and "translate" all this info.
Ha ha the Avatar being able to take fire hail and shoot twice with his melta gun/sword at bs10 effectively hitting on 2's with a reroll kinda invalidates taking fire dragons now. He alone outperforms their roll and so much more.
I'm really excited to hear about the state the Scorpions are now in - my favorite Aspect and Phoenix Lord, now with the whole "infiltrating issue' of past editions solved!
Plus, I can now field this guy to complete the theme (thanks redfinger!):
[/img]
(I'm glad the Wraithlord is still T8 too!)
I don't think I'll be gettng a Wraithknight Scorpion version made though...
Just peeked at the new codex and I have to confirm that banshees are not able to assault. They won't be good even this edition except I missed something.
Dark reapers otoh seem great. I'm not sure about Illic, wounding on 4+ (sniper) doesn't seem reliable.
I know that everyone is going on about guardians in wave serpents and all....
Isn't a more important consideration that Eldar finally have access to BS4 S8 shooting in the troop slot?
Who cares if they can kill things from a WS when you get BS4 EML or BL shots in troops with the power of the "stay the hell away from me" run/shoot shuricats?
Gwyidion wrote: I know that everyone is going on about guardians in wave serpents and all....
Isn't a more important consideration that Eldar finally have access to BS4 S8 shooting in the troop slot?
Who cares if they can kill things from a WS when you get BS4 EML or BL shots in troops with the power of the "stay the hell away from me" run/shoot shuricats?
I think you are right, actually i think if Warlocks can cast powers on units they have not joined, i think the main use Guardians will see is as a BS4 missile launcher and wound bunker for the warlocks.
How long have Guardians (regular ones, not the Black Guardians Ulthwe had) been described as conscripted civilians in the fluff? I'm pretty sure it was in the 3rd ed codex, but I have no idea about if it came about earlier.
With the change to WS/BS 4 I'm wondering if they're dumping that bit of fluff in favor of Guardians being trained soldiers, just not aspect warriors.
shamikebab wrote: I can't believe Acrobatic is just counter attack, they'd just give them counter attack surely? Are there any other examples in 6th of GW giving a unit an existing rule but renaming it?
From the Chaos Daemon codex, there's the Blade of Blood which have Bloodlust, which is Rampage. Though this is maybe not the exact same thing as Bloodlust more precisely gives Rampage to the bearer of the blade, but it's close.
Gwyidion wrote: I know that everyone is going on about guardians in wave serpents and all....
Isn't a more important consideration that Eldar finally have access to BS4 S8 shooting in the troop slot?
Who cares if they can kill things from a WS when you get BS4 EML or BL shots in troops with the power of the "stay the hell away from me" run/shoot shuricats?
I agree, They're great backfield objective holders now that can add quite a punch from afar. Two scatters lasers or starcannons at BS4 makes them pretty mean and versatile. The added conceal-lock can also give your opponents a big headache trying to get them off the board.
Other than that PL's have gotten pretty damn brutal with the new exarch powers. Asurmen's 3 warlords traits, inv save and str5 ap2 at I. 7 weapon makes him alsmost as mean as Karandras, I. 7 str 8 powerfist with assassination. Oh and Fuegan's added str. and A. for each lost wound is will bring on a lot of hurt too, almost makes FnP a hindrance. ^^
Just read the spoilers for the Wave Sepent. So let me get this straight. To justify the massive cost of our weak transports they gave us a gimmick of a shield instead of the desperately needed assault upgrade. Guess you've gotta make sure the cash cow marines keep the "only ones with assault vehicles" status.
I cringe at the thought of how stupidly expensive our weapons and equipment are going to be. Going to be good to know Kelly can still fire up that random number generator for determining points cost.
I think that wave serpent are actually good. Serpent shield downgrades penetrating hits on a 2+. You have a nice weapon just in case you don't need the shield anymore with a huge range (60"). Might be useful if it is down to 1HP and unloaded its passengers. Certainly it now is the most durable transport of the game. Not even land raider are this reliable.
Eldarcannon wrote: I think that wave serpent are actually good. Serpent shield downgrades penetrating hits on a 2+. You have a nice weapon just in case you don't need the shield anymore with a huge range (60"). Might be useful if it is down to 1HP and unloaded its passengers. Certainly it now is the most durable transport of the game. Not even land raider are this reliable.
They have the same problem they had with the old version. Downgrading a hit doesn't help since HP still kill you.
Mr.Church13 wrote: Just read the spoilers for the Wave Sepent. So let me get this straight. To justify the massive cost of our weak transports they gave us a gimmick of a shield instead of the desperately needed assault upgrade. Guess you've gotta make sure the cash cow marines keep the "only ones with assault vehicles" status.
I cringe at the thought of how stupidly expensive our weapons and equipment are going to be. Going to be good to know Kelly can still fire up that random number generator for determining points cost.
I'm thinking that they want to leave assaulting from transports a feature of Dark Eldar in order to make sure there are enough differences.
Mr.Church13 wrote: Just read the spoilers for the Wave Sepent. So let me get this straight. To justify the massive cost of our weak transports they gave us a gimmick of a shield instead of the desperately needed assault upgrade. Guess you've gotta make sure the cash cow marines keep the "only ones with assault vehicles" status.
How exactly are marines the only one with assault vehicles??
Mr.Church13 wrote: Just read the spoilers for the Wave Sepent. So let me get this straight. To justify the massive cost of our weak transports they gave us a gimmick of a shield instead of the desperately needed assault upgrade. Guess you've gotta make sure the cash cow marines keep the "only ones with assault vehicles" status.
How exactly are marines the only one with assault vehicles??
Besides forge world they are. Other armies have open topped. Which is worlds different.
And I fully agree with the guy who said that the pens to glance is not good enough. It does not give it anywhere near a landraiders survive ability. To be fair though it shouldn't because that LR costs way more.
Also, while I'm late to the party, I saw people talking about BS4 Guardians. I always picture how it is pictured within Dark Heresy (I think?).
Instead of BS3 or 4, it is BS33 or 37. Work's in 10's to be more accurate.
So perhaps a Conscript has BS21 rounding to 2.
A Guardsman has BS28, so goes to 3.
Veterans have 36 rounding to 4.
Untrained Eldar are 35, worse than a veteran Guard, but due to only having a 1-10 scale they are 4.
Then Trained Eldar are 44. Nearly 5, but not quite good enough.
Then any specialist Eldar are 54.
Edit:
Also it looks like we are still doomed to die to Heldrakes. Granted we can kill them 2nd turn now but RIP Dark Reapers / Wraiths ANYTHING.
Mr.Church13 wrote: Just read the spoilers for the Wave Sepent. So let me get this straight. To justify the massive cost of our weak transports they gave us a gimmick of a shield instead of the desperately needed assault upgrade. Guess you've gotta make sure the cash cow marines keep the "only ones with assault vehicles" status.
How exactly are marines the only one with assault vehicles??
Besides forge world they are. Other armies have open topped. Which is worlds different.
Well it lets you assault out of them, that's pretty much the selling feature of an assault vehicle. Sure there are negatives to open topped but the positive far out weighs it.
Gwyidion wrote: I know that everyone is going on about guardians in wave serpents and all....
Isn't a more important consideration that Eldar finally have access to BS4 S8 shooting in the troop slot?
Who cares if they can kill things from a WS when you get BS4 EML or BL shots in troops with the power of the "stay the hell away from me" run/shoot shuricats?
I agree, They're great backfield objective holders now that can add quite a punch from afar. Two scatters lasers or starcannons at BS4 makes them pretty mean and versatile. The added conceal-lock can also give your opponents a big headache trying to get them off the board.
Other than that PL's have gotten pretty damn brutal with the new exarch powers. Asurmen's 3 warlords traits, inv save and str5 ap2 at I. 7 weapon makes him alsmost as mean as Karandras, I. 7 str 8 powerfist with assassination. Oh and Fuegan's added str. and A. for each lost wound is will bring on a lot of hurt too, almost makes FnP a hindrance. ^^
Exactly, I imagine getting something like 3 bare bones units of them if i can put a heavy gun and a Warlock on them for under 150 or 160 points (guns would really need to make a difference, either some reliable anti tank or something like a 3 shot long range plasma equivalent). The lock would buff my other units. If the lock can only cast spells on them, then they are useless.
We aren't. I think that was largely the point. I dont know any Eldar player that doesnt have quite a few of these so i think GWs idea was "You own enough now stop using them and buy this".
Eldarcannon wrote: I think that wave serpent are actually good. Serpent shield downgrades penetrating hits on a 2+. You have a nice weapon just in case you don't need the shield anymore with a huge range (60"). Might be useful if it is down to 1HP and unloaded its passengers. Certainly it now is the most durable transport of the game. Not even land raider are this reliable.
They have the same problem they had with the old version. Downgrading a hit doesn't help since HP still kill you.
It's different, and I think it's worse than before. Before with Melta hits you had .167 chance to glance and .333 chance to pen. Now you have .778 chance to glance and .139 chance to pen. Combined each time a Melta hits (or anything else with +D6 on armor pen), you went from .5 chance to lose an HP to .917 chance to lose an HP. Less pens doesn't really matter when you're still dead anyway.
Vs Str 9 you go from .167 glance / .333 pen to .583 glance / .083 pen.
Vs Str 10 you go from .167 glance / .333 pen to .722 glance / .111 pen.
Verdict: Number of pens goes down, number of glances dramatically increases. I prefer the old version, as I'm remembering tons of times in 6th where that extra one or two HP gone means my units don't make it to the destination.
Puscifer wrote: Just curious... what are the Harlies like now?
I've got 30 old school harlies and I want to put them to good use.
They are rather interesting now. The shadow seer became a psycher lvl 1 and veil of tears is: roll a 2d6x2 and if they harlies are not seen, then you cant fire at another unit. So we have a 24" gap now!
Point cost are the same, nothing about the master, while the death jest is the same.
Just because a Guardian is a civilian now doesn't mean they didn't go through the path of the warrior at some point in their life. The exarchs are the warriors which are "lost" and remain in the same path forever. You can successfully be a dark reaper and then go study Pottery at the Temple of Pottery, it's all the same thing to the Eldar just a new path.
So to say Guardians are conscripts like an imperial conscript is a bit false.
Eldarcannon wrote: I think that wave serpent are actually good. Serpent shield downgrades penetrating hits on a 2+. You have a nice weapon just in case you don't need the shield anymore with a huge range (60"). Might be useful if it is down to 1HP and unloaded its passengers. Certainly it now is the most durable transport of the game. Not even land raider are this reliable.
They have the same problem they had with the old version. Downgrading a hit doesn't help since HP still kill you.
It's different, and I think it's worse than before. Before with Melta hits you had .167 chance to glance and .333 chance to pen. Now you have .778 chance to glance and .139 chance to pen. Combined each time a Melta hits (or anything else with +D6 on armor pen), you went from .5 chance to lose an HP to .917 chance to lose an HP. Less pens doesn't really matter when you're still dead anyway.
Vs Str 9 you go from .167 glance / .333 pen to .583 glance / .083 pen.
Vs Str 10 you go from .167 glance / .333 pen to .722 glance / .111 pen.
Verdict: Number of pens goes down, number of glances dramatically increases. I prefer the old version, as I'm remembering tons of times in 6th where that extra one or two HP gone means my units don't make it to the destination.
did you also take into account the fact that WS get a 4+ or 3+ cover save now? Yes you have to pay for it , but if you don't pay for it your either strapped for points or a complete
O and don't forget that you would rather have your WS wrecked and become LOS blocking terrain, instead of blowing up and cooking what is inside.
Puscifer wrote: Just curious... what are the Harlies like now?
I've got 30 old school harlies and I want to put them to good use.
They are rather interesting now. The shadow seer became a psycher lvl 1 and veil of tears is: roll a 2d6x2 and if they harlies are not seen, then you cant fire at another unit. So we have a 24" gap now!
Point cost are the same, nothing about the master, while the death jest is the same.
They Still have the Troupe Master, he was labeled as Master Mime though, which i understand was confusing given the Master Mime is another Harlequin Unit all together.
Also Harlequin Whips are supposed to be Kisses, damn germans.... XP
Eldarcannon wrote: I think that wave serpent are actually good. Serpent shield downgrades penetrating hits on a 2+. You have a nice weapon just in case you don't need the shield anymore with a huge range (60"). Might be useful if it is down to 1HP and unloaded its passengers. Certainly it now is the most durable transport of the game. Not even land raider are this reliable.
They have the same problem they had with the old version. Downgrading a hit doesn't help since HP still kill you.
I think they're quite good, as was said they are now the hardest transport in the game to destroy. It's going to be pretty hard to get a hit through a 4+ jink save if they move when upgraded with holofields, if they move flat out that's down to a 3+. If you fail the 3+ you still have an 83.3% chance to drop it down to a glance.
It will take 9 lascannon shots from a BS4 unit to take a HP off a WS moving flat out with holofields, and it will take 71 shots to pen it let alone get an immobilized or explode result. That means 27 shots to down it.
Even if you don't flat out it still takes 6 shots to take a HP off and 50 shots to pen, that is ridiculously good and I will gladly pay 115pts + holofields for that security.
For comparison a Land raider takes 6 shots to take a HP off and 12 shots to get a pen and it cost 250 points, how can people say wave serpents are going to die easily?
Dont remember seeing many comments yet on War Walkers. Now with a BS 4 I see this as a significant buff to the war walker squadron equiped with scatter lasers?
Alright Got the entire Army List up, gonna take a Break for awhile(my gfs getting mad at me for not paying attention to her XP) I should have the Weapon profiles and Psychic Powers up later today.
Puscifer wrote: Just curious... what are the Harlies like now?
I've got 30 old school harlies and I want to put them to good use.
They are rather interesting now. The shadow seer became a psycher lvl 1 and veil of tears is: roll a 2d6x2 and if they harlies are not seen, then you cant fire at another unit. So we have a 24" gap now!
Point cost are the same, nothing about the master, while the death jest is the same.
They Still have the Troupe Master, he was labeled as Master Mime though, which i understand was confusing given the Master Mime is another Harlequin Unit all together.
Also Harlequin Whips are supposed to be Kisses, damn germans.... XP
lol knew that, just meant the the master is still nothing special and I will forever regard him as an unnecessary point addition.
They're survivable. Unless they get assaulted. Cus, you know, a skimmer screaming down the battlefield is most vulnerable to some infantry guy punching it.
Quark wrote: Verdict: Number of pens goes down, number of glances dramatically increases. I prefer the old version, as I'm remembering tons of times in 6th where that extra one or two HP gone means my units don't make it to the destination.
This is certainly true but the unit won't die in the explosion and you will be able to shoot at full BS next turn. Moreover wave serpents are less prone to be one shot killed by some lucky guy. Melta infantry units, like fire dragons or combi-melta sternguard, will probably destroy a land raider in one turn. A wave serpent instead has better chances to survive.
PalmerC wrote: Dont remember seeing many comments yet on War Walkers. Now with a BS 4 I see this as a significant buff to the war walker squadron equiped with scatter lasers?
War Walkers got a bit better, 60 pts base now but thats with 2 Shuriken Cannons and a Force field(5++ save) included in the cost.
They can still be taken in squadrons of three, have all the same weapon options.
Scatter Lasers now have a special rule called Laser Lock that they shoot first, if at least one shot hits every other model in the unit gets twin link on all of their weapons.
They also can take Eldar Missile Launchers with Anti Air Rockets so they can by used as AA platforms (I have a feeling Scatter Laser + Missile Launcher will be even better now with 4 S6 shots now with Laser Lock and then being able to change out ammo Types on the Missile Launcher being able to handle hordes light armor and flyers.
Also with a 5++ Save and Scout they can get into a good forward position hopefully with cover and can remain pretty stationary and control large sections of the board with 36" range guns
It will take 9 lascannon shots from a BS4 unit to take a HP off a WS moving flat out with holofields, and it will take 71 shots to pen it let alone get an immobilized or explode result. That means 27 shots to down it.
Who cares. A wave serpent that has already moved is probably where it needed to be. That it died after getting there is pretty trivial.
They lost survivability when it comes to getting there in the first place. For example, when you go second and don't get any kind of Jink save.
It will take 9 lascannon shots from a BS4 unit to take a HP off a WS moving flat out with holofields, and it will take 71 shots to pen it let alone get an immobilized or explode result. That means 27 shots to down it.
Who cares. A wave serpent that has already moved is probably where it needed to be. That it died after getting there is pretty trivial.
They lost survivability when it comes to getting there in the first place. For example, when you go second and don't get any kind of Jink save.
If you go second and are not in cover you missplayed or your initiative got seized.
WW's have become 50% more expensive now, before it was 40 pnts for a WW with dual SC, now it's 60 pnts. However, now they get free +5 inv. save, fleet and battletrance. Interesting, very interesting.
It will take 9 lascannon shots from a BS4 unit to take a HP off a WS moving flat out with holofields, and it will take 71 shots to pen it let alone get an immobilized or explode result. That means 27 shots to down it.
Who cares. A wave serpent that has already moved is probably where it needed to be. That it died after getting there is pretty trivial.
They lost survivability when it comes to getting there in the first place. For example, when you go second and don't get any kind of Jink save.
WW's have become 50% more expensive now, before it was 40 pnts for a WW with dual SC, now it's 60 pnts. However, now they get free +5 inv. save, fleet and battletrance. Interesting, very interesting.
Depends on how much the upgrade weapons cost.
Also, fleet + battle trance means they can move to position during movement phase, shoot you and then run back with reroll.
The fact is the wave serpent still cant survive anything in melee. It's definitely much better than battlewagons and that mess of a transport that tau have to deal with though.
WW's have become 50% more expensive now, before it was 40 pnts for a WW with dual SC, now it's 60 pnts. However, now they get free +5 inv. save, fleet and battletrance. Interesting, very interesting.
For 20+ points they have become more survivable and more flexible in moving. O! and BS4? YES PLEASE! I see no downside to the point increase.
War walkers are great. I did not have the opportunity to carefully read laser lock. If it's what i suppose (the model gets rerolls, not the unit) they are good. BS4, 8 strenght 6 shots at 36" for 70 points. They are just a little tougher for a little more points and some nice tricks.
I'm still considering about mixed loadouts to take advantage from scatterlock. Maybe eml + laser?
WW's have become 50% more expensive now, before it was 40 pnts for a WW with dual SC, now it's 60 pnts. However, now they get free +5 inv. save, fleet and battletrance. Interesting, very interesting.
For 20+ points they have become more survivable and more flexible in moving. O! and BS4? YES PLEASE! I see no downside to the point increase.
Not to mention anti-air missiles at BS4 in droves (although the unit likely does become expensive that way)
WW's have become 50% more expensive now, before it was 40 pnts for a WW with dual SC, now it's 60 pnts. However, now they get free +5 inv. save, fleet and battletrance. Interesting, very interesting.
For 20+ points they have become more survivable and more flexible in moving. I see no downside to the point increase.
They also gained open topped though, and in my experience as a Deldar player, 10 all round open topped vehicles with 5++ survive literally nothing. It could prove to be a nerf.
WW's have become 50% more expensive now, before it was 40 pnts for a WW with dual SC, now it's 60 pnts. However, now they get free +5 inv. save, fleet and battletrance. Interesting, very interesting.
For 20+ points they have become more survivable and more flexible in moving. O! and BS4? YES PLEASE! I see no downside to the point increase.
Not to mention anti-air missiles at BS4 in droves (although the unit likely does become expensive that way)
Not if you TL the sucker with laser lock (what ever it is). I think we are going to see a lot of SL/EML or BL combos out there for more AT fire powa.
@khaine- In my experience most people can;t get to my WW unless they either have DL(something equivalent) or they just try to ignore them since they could never reach them in the backfield.
It's a big nerf. Most of the time you were getting a 5+ cover save anyway, so the 5++ doesn't help much, and now you're way more likely to die to a a random heavy bolter or autocannon.
But at least you'll still get that 5++ against the swarms of Tau SMS.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: It's a big nerf. Most of the time you were getting a 5+ cover save anyway, so the 5++ doesn't help much, and now you're way more likely to die to a a random heavy bolter or autocannon.
But at least you'll still get that 5++ against the swarms of Tau SMS.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: It's a big nerf. Most of the time you were getting a 5+ cover save anyway, so the 5++ doesn't help much, and now you're way more likely to die to a a random heavy bolter or autocannon.
But at least you'll still get that 5++ against the swarms of Tau SMS.
its not nerfing. It is balancing.
THIS. War walkers and fire dragons were our only under-priced units, so they fixed them.
And then replaced them with new under-priced units like warp spiders
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: It's a big nerf. Most of the time you were getting a 5+ cover save anyway, so the 5++ doesn't help much, and now you're way more likely to die to a a random heavy bolter or autocannon.
But at least you'll still get that 5++ against the swarms of Tau SMS.
its not nerfing. It is balancing.
THIS. War walkers and fire dragons were our only under-priced units, so they fixed them.
And then replaced them with new under-priced units like warp spiders
What they have done for the Warp Spiders brings tears of joys to my eyes. I had a list that themed mainly Warp spiders and now.....it is veeeerrrrryyyyyyy probable that it is going to be used. Just switched up ofc to allow the new swag units in
The twin-link for the laser light has to be for the squad. Or it'd be pointless.
Assuming it is for the squad (like has been indicated) Vypers, Walkers, and Guardians are insane. You actually don't need guide anymore for these units. Vyper's costing around 60pts each (after adding a second cannon) and then add one scatter laser so maybe 190 for the squad putting out 4 St6 BS4 shots and 15 TL-St6 BS4 shots that ignore armor on a 6 to wound. That's pretty impressive. Same thing for Warwalkers which can outflank.
Darge wrote: Alright Got the entire Army List up, gonna take a Break for awhile(my gfs getting mad at me for not paying attention to her XP) I should have the Weapon profiles and Psychic Powers up later today.
I might have missed some discussion on this in the preceding 146 pages from this topic, but has anyone noticed how improved GJB are... and they have gotten a BS increase, Ancient Doom, And Battle Focus plus a 5 point decrease in points!?
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The Spiritseer wrote: Well GW shipped my Codex and Cards today. ETA on FedEx says tomorrow. Awesome!
was there an email or something? I haven't received any word mine has shipped.
I don't see how some people are complaining about WS survivability, saying things like if you don't go first or tau have markerlights makes them useless is just asking too much. The whole point of the Eldar is speed and fire power with advanced technology, the WS can now move 24 inches at cruising speed, get +1 to it's cover save and has a 60 inch range high strength ignore cover shot that you should be using on those pesky pathfinders. It's like saying Land raiders should be way cheaper because of all the lance weaponry in some armies making their AV14 vehicle av12. That's where a bit of strategy and planning comes in to play i.e. the part of the game that makes it fun.
Now if you're talking about lack of assault capability or lack of improvement to banshees that's ok but there may be something we're missing in regards to them.
Hulksmash wrote: The twin-link for the laser light has to be for the squad. Or it'd be pointless.
Assuming it is for the squad (like has been indicated) Vypers, Walkers, and Guardians are insane. You actually don't need guide anymore for these units. Vyper's costing around 60pts each (after adding a second cannon) and then add one scatter laser so maybe 190 for the squad putting out 4 St6 BS4 shots and 15 TL-St6 BS4 shots that ignore armor on a 6 to wound. That's pretty impressive. Same thing for Warwalkers which can outflank.
Sisters of battle do the same shenanigan with their heavy bolters and it does not work all that well for them. Plus they do it cheaper.
So St5 is the same as stregth 6? And they have the ability to move and fire at full capacity? And they are immune to St3 weapons? A 5++ is the same a 6++? And they can outflank? and 12 Shots are totally the same thing as 19? And Warwalkers need to take a test to get the ignore armor? And the Retributors are twin-linked?
Hulksmash wrote: The twin-link for the laser light has to be for the squad. Or it'd be pointless.
Assuming it is for the squad (like has been indicated) Vypers, Walkers, and Guardians are insane. You actually don't need guide anymore for these units. Vyper's costing around 60pts each (after adding a second cannon) and then add one scatter laser so maybe 190 for the squad putting out 4 St6 BS4 shots and 15 TL-St6 BS4 shots that ignore armor on a 6 to wound. That's pretty impressive. Same thing for Warwalkers which can outflank.
Sisters of battle do the same shenanigan with their heavy bolters and it does not work all that well for them. Plus they do it cheaper.
Umm, Not so much. It works out quite well for Rets. A Retri-Bastion runs about 180 or so and puts out only 15-18 S5 AP4 shots that only ignore an armor save on a 4+ for the squad and then a 6 to wound. A little different and it still works great. Another strength and no 'activation roll' is better.
Autarch Fiallathandirel wrote: I don't see how some people are complaining about WS survivability, saying things like if you don't go first or tau have markerlights makes them useless is just asking too much. The whole point of the Eldar is speed and fire power with advanced technology, the WS can now move 24 inches at cruising speed, get +1 to it's cover save and has a 60 inch range high strength ignore cover shot that you should be using on those pesky pathfinders. It's like saying Land raiders should be way cheaper because of all the lance weaponry in some armies making their AV14 vehicle av12. That's where a bit of strategy and planning comes in to play i.e. the part of the game that makes it fun..
115pt base + 15 pts for holofield + weapon upgrades + contents to take it in the first place. Biggest issue: If you get near assault, you're dead which is what they eventually have to do to get the contents out. Compare that cost to the cost of a pile of jetbikes that can move even faster, shoot twin link psuedo rending, and don't have to get out to score.
I see Waveserpents more as Wraith unit delivery systems. Not much else is worth putting in them honestly. Scorpions can almost walk across the field, Banshees aren't worth their points, bikes and foot guardians are better than mounted guardians or dire avengers and while I like Fire Dragons they don't feel as required in this book. But maybe them and Wraith units only
Hulksmash wrote: I see Waveserpents more as Wraith unit delivery systems. Not much else is worth putting in them honestly. Scorpions can almost walk across the field, Banshees aren't worth their points, bikes and foot guardians are better than mounted guardians or dire avengers and while I like Fire Dragons they don't feel as required in this book. But maybe them and Wraith units only
Hulksmash wrote: I see Waveserpents more as Wraith unit delivery systems. Not much else is worth putting in them honestly. Scorpions can almost walk across the field, Banshees aren't worth their points, bikes and foot guardians are better than mounted guardians or dire avengers and while I like Fire Dragons they don't feel as required in this book. But maybe them and Wraith units only
I am not putting 5 wraiths in a WS
Yeah, the Overlord will probably get mad that you're consorting with Eldar.
Hulksmash wrote: I see Waveserpents more as Wraith unit delivery systems. Not much else is worth putting in them honestly. Scorpions can almost walk across the field, Banshees aren't worth their points, bikes and foot guardians are better than mounted guardians or dire avengers and while I like Fire Dragons they don't feel as required in this book. But maybe them and Wraith units only
Meh when the cost of the serpent will be damn near the cost of a unit of wraithguard you might as well fully go foot. if you are running wraithguard there is no reason not to make them troops and good all out outside of slaughtering you wallet.
Sorry, just seeing a lot of potential based on the rumors. I'm not going to drag down the thread with trying to explain how important disruption can be or the multitude of new avenues a lot of these rumors are opening up.
I'll simply be content to say the WS has a place. Wraith units of 5 in Wave Serpents have a place. Foot Wraith isn't the only Wraith anymore. And that doesn't touch on the rest of the codex full of what appears to be awesome. Though the rumors could be wrong or missing important sentences. We'll have to see.
Correct though if you can attach a warlock to them still then you may want to do 5+ warlock. It really depends on the fine print of how the warlock powers are worded and purchased/rolled for. they could be awesome now or they could be worse off then before. So far from the rumors/leaks it looks like they are too unpredictable to be worth it.
BlueDagger wrote: Correct though if you can attach a warlock to them still then you may want to do 5+ warlock. It really depends on the fine print of how the warlock powers are worded and purchased/rolled for. they could be awesome now or they could be worse off then before. So far from the rumors/leaks it looks like they are too unpredictable to be worth it.
Someone has posted the picture of the Warlock entry: they can no longer be attached to Wraith units. the WD battle report screwed that up (most likely it was done with an early version of the rules, or the Eldar player didn't bother to check).
Mr.Church13 wrote: Just read the spoilers for the Wave Sepent. So let me get this straight. To justify the massive cost of our weak transports they gave us a gimmick of a shield instead of the desperately needed assault upgrade. Guess you've gotta make sure the cash cow marines keep the "only ones with assault vehicles" status.
I cringe at the thought of how stupidly expensive our weapons and equipment are going to be. Going to be good to know Kelly can still fire up that random number generator for determining points cost.
If you're so unhappy with everything Eldar, why not put your stuff up for sale on Ebay? Hopefully cheap
And for the sake of argument, Open Topped should count as assault vehicles.
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Alpharius wrote: I'm really excited to hear about the state the Scorpions are now in - my favorite Aspect and Phoenix Lord, now with the whole "infiltrating issue' of past editions solved!
Plus, I can now field this guy to complete the theme (thanks redfinger!):
[/img]
(I'm glad the Wraithlord is still T8 too!)
I don't think I'll be gettng a Wraithknight Scorpion version made though...
Unfortunately it just inspired me to make a Dark Reaper Wraithknight that is holding both of its Wraithcannons horizontally, like a gigantic twin-linked beast of a gun.
Unfortunately it just inspired me to make a Dark Reaper Wraithknight that is holding both of its Wraithcannons horizontally, like a gigantic twin-linked beast of a gun.
xxvaderxx wrote: Any one knows how much are the wraiths with ap2 flamer?. Can the whole unit take them or just one guy?.
160 pts for 5, pretty sure d-scythes are free? also has to be the whole unit, all wraith cannons or all d-scythes.
D-scythes are +10 ppm, and you do have to replace the whole unit's weapons with them.
Ah thanks for clearing that up, I wasnt sure my self. Good news I'll have the Weapon entries up sonn, trying to figure out how to organize them right now, thinking of list multiple organization spots ei. Haveing the normal heavy weapons group but also having a laser weapon group that has bright lances, scatter lasers, in addition to lasblasters ect.
Unfortunately it just inspired me to make a Dark Reaper Wraithknight that is holding both of its Wraithcannons horizontally, like a gigantic twin-linked beast of a gun.
xxvaderxx wrote: Any one knows how much are the wraiths with ap2 flamer?. Can the whole unit take them or just one guy?.
160 pts for 5, pretty sure d-scythes are free? also has to be the whole unit, all wraith cannons or all d-scythes.
D-scythes are +10 ppm, and you do have to replace the whole unit's weapons with them.
Thats a shame, then you are into the 210 points before the 110+ points transport. Way too much im afraid, they would certainly cream what ever you point them to, but 330+ for that is a bit much. And 5 mega deadly shots dont do enough damage, unless you use it as tank hunters.
Hulksmash wrote:The twin-link for the laser light has to be for the squad. Or it'd be pointless.
Assuming it is for the squad (like has been indicated) Vypers, Walkers, and Guardians are insane. You actually don't need guide anymore for these units. Vyper's costing around 60pts each (after adding a second cannon) and then add one scatter laser so maybe 190 for the squad putting out 4 St6 BS4 shots and 15 TL-St6 BS4 shots that ignore armor on a 6 to wound. That's pretty impressive. Same thing for Warwalkers which can outflank.
Laser Lock is per model sadly, now that I think about it its really not going to come up that much as very few models have the weapons to make use of it. Walkers would need to run 1 Scatter and 1 other weapon, Cannons don't match the range band and Missiles don't really have the same targets. It would have been amazing on the Wraithknight, but sadly unless there is some special rule I have missed the Wraithknight is still limited to firing 2 weapons which means you are probably best to just run it naked.
Gangrel767 wrote:I might have missed some discussion on this in the preceding 146 pages from this topic, but has anyone noticed how improved GJB are... and they have gotten a BS increase, Ancient Doom, And Battle Focus plus a 5 point decrease in points!?
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The Spiritseer wrote: Well GW shipped my Codex and Cards today. ETA on FedEx says tomorrow. Awesome!
was there an email or something? I haven't received any word mine has shipped.
Yeah Jetbikes are one of the major highlights in the codex, which just makes the lack of a new model hurt more. They were already probably the best Eldar scoring unit (aside from the Wraithguard blob) and they dropped in price, got BS4 and WS4 and a better weapon. The Warlock powers just put icing on the cake, if you get the +1 armour save power then you have 2+ saves on models which can grab objectives from 48" away which is insane and crucially even the Primaris helps them out quite a bit, 3+ cover is very nice as well.
The biggest thing I'm starting to realise is that this codex can almost stand on its own without psychic buffs. BS4 everywhere makes a huge difference.
Gangrel767 wrote:I might have missed some discussion on this in the preceding 146 pages from this topic, but has anyone noticed how improved GJB are... and they have gotten a BS increase, Ancient Doom, And Battle Focus plus a 5 point decrease in points!?
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The Spiritseer wrote: Well GW shipped my Codex and Cards today. ETA on FedEx says tomorrow. Awesome!
was there an email or something? I haven't received any word mine has shipped.
Email with tracking information.
megatrons2nd wrote:
The Spiritseer wrote: Well GW shipped my Codex and Cards today. ETA on FedEx says tomorrow. Awesome!
Awesome news. Taking a sick day tomorrow, right?
No. FedEx arrives late to my house anyway.
Shandara wrote:
The Spiritseer wrote: Well GW shipped my Codex and Cards today. ETA on FedEx says tomorrow. Awesome!
What!? GW shipping _before_ release? What trickery is this.
It isn't the first time. I had this happen before, like with Vampire Counts. It might have aided that I ordered within an hour of preorders going up and it was just the Codex and Cards. No kits.
xxvaderxx wrote: And 5 mega deadly shots dont do enough damage, unless you use it as tank hunters.
Yeah, and at that point Fire Dragons are better for the role. The Wraiths will do a number on pretty much any Tyranid MC you can find, at least...
So sad, i love the models, but the life of me i cant find them a decent role. May be 2 or 3 units with swords and axes (like 3 swords 2 axes) and rush them up front. Force your opponent to deal with them or be cut into pieces?. Thats about 280 points transport included, more affordable.
Hulksmash wrote: Sorry, just seeing a lot of potential based on the rumors. I'm not going to drag down the thread with trying to explain how important disruption can be or the multitude of new avenues a lot of these rumors are opening up.
I'll simply be content to say the WS has a place. Wraith units of 5 in Wave Serpents have a place. Foot Wraith isn't the only Wraith anymore. And that doesn't touch on the rest of the codex full of what appears to be awesome. Though the rumors could be wrong or missing important sentences. We'll have to see.
Exactly with all these new additions to existing units (Bar howling banshees ) this is turning out to be a great addition to the 6th edition game. I can honestly say from what I've seen so far I am extremely pleased with it, when I heard the WS was 115 pts base I thought it was crazy but now that I see the rules it's points balanced. SS have become really good as have guardians I can see myself fielding a 1.5k to 2k army consisting of a farseer, PL/Avatar, seer council, SS, fire dragons, maybe harlequins along with guardians, dire avengers in WS, perhaps a unit of rangers to camp an objective, dark reapers, a squad of war walkers and whatever else I can afford in that range. I've always wanted to field a mostly food list with well defined roles and nice rules. It seems that is what we are getting.
Only thing I am torn with is do I field the avatar or do I field Illic (in my harlie army) with his pathfinder retinue with some guardians on the side or even more rangers (12pts ea has me excited)!
If these rumours are true, then infiltrating Striking Scorpions just got viable, now with the addition of fleet, it could be possible to get into combat by turn two (is it possible to assault on turn 1? I forget).
That is how i was fielding my scorps anyway, pending cover and set up. Im very happy with thenrumors thusnfar and am happy i picked up more regular wraithgurad.
prob won't work this way, but it'd be funny to troll someone.
mantle autarch and 120" rifle tucked in a corner
autarch w/ wings
3x max jetbikes
3x 10 swooping hawks
2x outflank warwalkers
- Reserve all but hawks and autarchs
- Skyleap turn one to enter reserves with the hawks and autarch
- Turn 2 give a -2 to your reserves to keep everything off the table, bomb with hawks and scatterless DS into a corner out of range, fire the sniper rifle for Lulz,
- Turn 3 skyleap hawks, stop reserves again, fire rifle again for lulz.
- Turn 4-5 land/bring in everything at strategic locations and scalpel off units that need it using the +2 reserves.
So are Vypers worth using now they have BS4? The codex entry looks pretty much identical to before, although we don't have weapon points yet. The Shuriken buff could be interesting for them.
I'm not too sold on the Avatar. It went up by 40pts for +4 init and Fleet, but dropped the invuln to 5++ which effectively cancels out the extra wound. The Exarch powers might be useful if they don't cost any extra, but I'm not sure it has the survivability it needs.
Also can anyone confirm if Starcannons were buffed to Heavy 3 Blast like I'm sure I've read somewhere?
Khaine wrote: So essentially phil has buffed all the other aspects considerably (-dragons), while banshees are essentially the same, but one point less and without grenades
often Phil Kelly makes grievous errors. Heldrakes, DE venoms, Chaos Possessed/mutilators, and Mandrakes all speak to this.
BlueDagger wrote: prob won't work this way, but it'd be funny to troll someone.
- Reserve all but hawks and autarchs
- Skyleap turn one to enter reserves with the hawks and autarch - Turn 2 give a -2 to your reserves to keep everything off the table, bomb with hawks and scatterless DS into a corner out of range, fire the sniper rifle for Lulz,
- Turn 3 skyleap hawks, stop reserves again, fire rifle again for lulz.
- Turn 4-5 land/bring in everything at strategic locations and scalpel off units that need it using the +2 reserves.
You'd auto-lose due to having no units on the table at the end of turn 1 (or also if you lost too many fragile Hawks).
BlueDagger wrote: prob won't work this way, but it'd be funny to troll someone.
- Reserve all but hawks and autarchs
- Skyleap turn one to enter reserves with the hawks and autarch - Turn 2 give a -2 to your reserves to keep everything off the table, bomb with hawks and scatterless DS into a corner out of range, fire the sniper rifle for Lulz,
- Turn 3 skyleap hawks, stop reserves again, fire rifle again for lulz.
- Turn 4-5 land/bring in everything at strategic locations and scalpel off units that need it using the +2 reserves.
You'd auto-lose due to having no units on the table at the end of turn 1 (or also if you lost too many fragile Hawks).
The mantle autarch stays on the board waaaay out of range in cover.
I find it amusing that people are ready to write the Eldar off without having seen the book or played some games with them. Enough with the Chicken Little comments (" The sky is falling!")
Nocturnus wrote: I find it amusing that people are ready to write the Eldar off without having seen the book or played some games with them. Enough with the Chicken Little comments (" The sky is falling!")
You see this more than once in every thread. In fact, someone posted about 10-15 pages back he had all of his stuff on swap shop, writing them off completely before ANY rules came out, just a picture of a wraithknight.
xxvaderxx wrote: Am i the only one loving the Bikes? WS/BS 4 T4 sv3+ Eldar bike at 17 points per model?.
They're like marines!
Does any one know how much the shuriken cannon upgrade costs?
To the above poster, forget the psiker, 10 bikes can reliably shot 20 rending shots plus hit with 10 hammer what ever at I10, plus get 20 st3 strikes, all before the MEQs swing.
It's easy to see why people are passionate about it though. If something doesn't meet your ascetic for how you want your army to be, and you've already invested countless hours and $$$ into it, it can be upsetting to see a complete 180 degree turn from the direction a lot of people wanted. For example, aspect warrior armies might have a right to be annoyed given the years they've waited for, lets say, new warp spider models?
Nocturnus wrote: I find it amusing that people are ready to write the Eldar off without having seen the book or played some games with them. Enough with the Chicken Little comments (" The sky is falling!")
You see this more than once in every thread. In fact, someone posted about 10-15 pages back he had all of his stuff on swap shop, writing them off completely before ANY rules came out, just a picture of a wraithknight.
I remember that post! Hopefully I can score some cheap Eldar off Ebay now...
So I'm wondering, did harlies get better or worse now that they've got their old Veil of tears rule back? There's a slight nerf now that you can fail your psychic test though.
Nocturnus wrote: I find it amusing that people are ready to write the Eldar off without having seen the book or played some games with them. Enough with the Chicken Little comments (" The sky is falling!")
It was the same with Tau, people were writing everything off. Now they seem to be pretty powerful
From what I've seen so far this update looks good to me, another strong 6th edition codex with several viable options and good internal balance (excluding Banshees it seems sadly)
All the new rules from these rumours seem very, very good indeed. Not only are they pretty awesome, but I just like the way they work. Having a "pool" of Exarch Powers, for example, is an easy and effective way of doing it.
deathmagiks wrote: It's easy to see why people are passionate about it though. If something doesn't meet your ascetic for how you want your army to be, and you've already invested countless hours and $$$ into it, it can be upsetting to see a complete 180 degree turn from the direction a lot of people wanted. For example, aspect warrior armies might have a right to be annoyed given the years they've waited for, lets say, new warp spider models?
Fair enough. I was referring to people QQ'ng about the rules. A lot of my Eldar are the wonderful Jes Goodwin models that were the first released. I would love to see new Warp Spiders, though the originals are still better than some of the crap they're releasing nowadays. I've played Eldar since Rogue Trader, so I've spent the time and money on them. I can understand being frustrated by what you've read, but tossing in the towel without even trying them out? Seems kind of silly IMHO.
I wish they at least moved some of the Heavy support units, into elites or something.
I'd really like to take some Night Spinners, but they are competing with Fire Prisims and Warp Hunters. Or the Arty into Elites, and maybe the Night Spinners into FA. Or being able to Squadron them. Something, haha.
There's always going to be kneejerk reactions to things. Especially when you don't like what you see. For example, I'm upset by the Avatar losing a 4++, even though I've never played one. I'm annoyed about the Wraithknight, even though I play Ulthwe. But then again, I was annoyed when I started eldar and I wanted to run a necromancer list, but hated the color yellow. Or having to paint a damn rainbow for all my aspect warriors lol.
But some people adapt, some people complain, and some people give up. For the latter, there's always Necrons.
Nocturnus wrote: I find it amusing that people are ready to write the Eldar off without having seen the book or played some games with them. Enough with the Chicken Little comments (" The sky is falling!")
It was the same with Tau, people were writing everything off. Now they seem to be pretty powerful
From what I've seen so far this update looks good to me, another strong 6th edition codex with several viable options and good internal balance (excluding Banshees it seems sadly)
Can't wait to read the codex.
And while I have yet to face the new Tau, I think they scare me more than any other army. I agree about the balance and multiple, viable builds that seem to be in the Eldar book. Nice to see there are still some level headed folks about
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deathmagiks wrote: There's always going to be kneejerk reactions to things. Especially when you don't like what you see. For example, I'm upset by the Avatar losing a 4++, even though I've never played one. I'm annoyed about the Wraithknight, even though I play Ulthwe. But then again, I was annoyed when I started eldar and I wanted to run a necromancer list, but hated the color yellow. Or having to paint a damn rainbow for all my aspect warriors lol.
But some people adapt, some people complain, and some people give up. For the latter, there's always Necrons.
Lol don't get me wrong, I complain. Probably more than I should. I use it for humor, but I'm sure my friends get tired of it every now and then. Or always.
But let's be honest, you don't pick a T3 majority army if you want to have it easy.
Popenfresh wrote: So I'm wondering, did harlies get better or worse now that they've got their old Veil of tears rule back? There's a slight nerf now that you can fail your psychic test though.
I think it's a good thing. As much as I like Stealth+Shrouding, I missed the old "you can't see me" when it went away and I'm glad it's coming back.
Also thank you for mentioning that it's the old rule. I just caught upon the last 7ish pages and kept seeing people getting excited over the "new" Shadowseer rule, and I was waiting til I got caught up to mention they basically just took away that errata and added a psychic test .
Popenfresh wrote: So I'm wondering, did harlies get better or worse now that they've got their old Veil of tears rule back? There's a slight nerf now that you can fail your psychic test though.
I think it's a good thing. As much as I like Stealth+Shrouding, I missed the old "you can't see me" when it went away and I'm glad it's coming back.
Also thank you for mentioning that it's the old rule. I just caught upon the last 7ish pages and kept seeing people getting excited over the "new" Shadowseer rule, and I was waiting til I got caught up to mention they basically just took away that errata and added a psychic test .
Now all they have to do is errata the DE codex . Sadly because of the DE....the Harlies cant run and shoot :(
I'm puzzled by the Wraithknight's weapon loadouts. There apparently is no rule allowing it to fire more than two weapons, so actually pretty much all loadouts in the featured pictures are completely stupid. In WD battlereport Glenn says he gave the knight two scatter lasers, as they allow re-roll for the suncannon if the lasers (plural!) hit... except you actually can't fire them...
deathmagiks wrote: Lol don't get me wrong, I complain. Probably more than I should. I use it for humor, but I'm sure my friends get tired of it every now and then. Or always.
But let's be honest, you don't pick a T3 majority army if you want to have it easy.
QFT. I play Eldar of both varieties. And we all complain somewhat. I just don't think it's as bad as the naysayers are making it out to be. Try it then decide. Yes it sucks that Banshees appear to be untouched and somewhat useless. Phil always seems to include a few crappy units in every codex he writes. Looking at you Mandrakes, Warp Talons, Talos... Maybe that's how he "balances" his armies....
deathmagiks wrote: Lol don't get me wrong, I complain. Probably more than I should. I use it for humor, but I'm sure my friends get tired of it every now and then. Or always.
But let's be honest, you don't pick a T3 majority army if you want to have it easy.
-Shrike- wrote: Disarm Bjorn the Fell-Handed. Isn't he a character? Feel free to ignore me if I'm wrong.
Or a daemon prince.
Or the swarmlord.
Or just say feth it, and play a game against a pre-heresy army, and watch the rage. You have just under a 50% chance to strip ANGRON of BOTH his chainaxes, because they only have 1 profile.
/rant
... I really hope I'm raging for nothing, and this ability is appropriately costed. If it costs less than 15pts
deathmagiks wrote: Lol don't get me wrong, I complain. Probably more than I should. I use it for humor, but I'm sure my friends get tired of it every now and then. Or always.
But let's be honest, you don't pick a T3 majority army if you want to have it easy.
Unless you're Imperial Guard with 6 Vendettas.
LOL. If I played someone who ran that, I'd punch him in the neck.
lokust2501 wrote: I'd argue since the Harlequins don't follow the paths of the craftworld Eldar, the battle trance rule wouldn't necessarily be appropriate for them.
Crimson wrote: I'm puzzled by the Wraithknight's weapon loadouts. There apparently is no rule allowing it to fire more than two weapons, so actually pretty much all loadouts in the featured pictures are completely stupid. In WD battlereport Glenn says he gave the knight two scatter lasers, as they allow re-roll for the suncannon if the lasers (plural!) hit... except you actually can't fire them...
... Holy crap you're right, that does diminish the value of the wraithknight pretty significantly.
Popenfresh wrote: So I'm wondering, did harlies get better or worse now that they've got their old Veil of tears rule back? There's a slight nerf now that you can fail your psychic test though.
I think it's a good thing. As much as I like Stealth+Shrouding, I missed the old "you can't see me" when it went away and I'm glad it's coming back.
Also thank you for mentioning that it's the old rule. I just caught upon the last 7ish pages and kept seeing people getting excited over the "new" Shadowseer rule, and I was waiting til I got caught up to mention they basically just took away that errata and added a psychic test .
Now all they have to do is errata the DE codex . Sadly because of the DE....the Harlies cant run and shoot :(
They need to errata the DE so Drazhar can stand toe to toe with Karrandras
Overall I'm pretty happy with what I see. My only complaints are:
1.) Troops are still a mess because it just doesn't seem possible to use guardians effectively.
2.) No way to move aspects (I was really liking the compulsory troop rumor).
3.) Wraithknight isn't the god on the battlefield I was expecting it to be.
4.) No plastic scorpions.
shamikebab wrote: I cannot believe GW would be that stupid, there must be something that lets them fire more than two....surely?
Nope.
Now I'm wondering whether this was intended or if it is a mistake.
Well, at least this (again) goes against the theory that GW gives new expensive kits great rules so that everyone would rush to buy them...
Well...to be fair 2 of the 3 version it can take suffer very little if at all.
suncannon and shield you will be shooting a scatter laser and the suncannon meaning your only missing out on 1 heavy weapon.
the sword and board guy can still shoot both heavy weapons on his shoulders.
its really the dual wraith lances that get screwed.......
but then are they "balancing" at saying shooting two str 10 ap 2 shots at 36" range is good enough? I really wanted to at least scatter laser for twin link....but alas...
The warlock preview before said its only the runes of battle powers so no divination for warlocks?, interesting.
How many points for jetbikes?, and is the seer council still viable?
What does fortune do now?
Anybody?
Runes of Battle has Destructor and everything else was Blessing/Maladiction I think. Oddl enough Runes of Fate has way more offensive powers, which seems backwards but whatever. It has Eldritch Storm, which is now has Fleshbane and Haywire so isn't completely terrible, a focused witchfire power which does 3 hits which wound on 2+ but allow armour (which can carry over to a second model of your choice if you kill the first target) and Mind War, which is the same as before except if the Seer loses the rolloff he drops the WS/BS 1, draws and Farseering winning the opponent drops to WS/BS1 in addition to the difference taken as wounds.
Warlocks would be insanely broken if they could get Divination, it would make Farseers completely pointless because you could get re-rolls to hit with every squad. Yeah they are Runes of Battle only, but imo its by probably the most powerful psychic chart/lore so far, incredibly flexible and largely buff/debuff based (which is far more important than damage dealing psychic powers).
Jetbikes are amazing, they drop 5pts to 17pts each and are now WS4 BS4 with a more dangerous main weapon (and the Cannon is better as well). Expect them to be the mainstay troop unit for the codex, if you can get them a Warlock with the +1 save psychic power they are crazy, 2+ saves on a unit that can move 48" a turn. Even the default power helps them out as well, 3+ cover with Shrouding is pretty nice.
My initial reaction is that the Council as an individual unit isn't viable at all anymore. The most important thing to note is that Farseers no longer unlock Warlocks, you get a unit of up to 10 Warlocks per detachment that do not take up an HQ slot, but since they now work like Wolf Guard again you will always be stripping out Warlocks to add to Jetbikes and other units and you can't get any more than 10. Essentially you would be crippling your army just to run a single block of Warlocks, which reduces the effectiveness of their powers.
Fortune is power number 5 on the Runes of Fate chart. It is Warp Charge 2 (Seers can get a 15pt upgrade which can drop Warp Charge 2 to Warp Charge 1 if they turn off their Rune Armour for a turn) and now allows any friendly unit (i.e no Eldar restrictions which is silly) to re-roll all failed saving throws and Deny the Witch rolls.
@Theorius. Unfortunately the Lances are by FAR the best loadout. The Sword and board loadout is hilariously bad, you pay 5pts get a 1 re-roll to hit in assault and a 5++ and give up BOTH S10 AP2 guns, if anything that loadout should reduce the cost of the Wraithknight. The Suncannon is nice but it is 40pts, which is terribly costed - a Suncannon and the Lance should be costed more or less the same (one is a powerful anti tank gun, one is a powerful anti infantry gun) and the 5++ is significantly worse than a S10 AP2 gun. Heres hoping its an oversight, but I'm not crossing my fingers. I am correct in thinking that MCs can't even snapfire their 3rd/4th weapons?
@Theorius. Unfortunately the Lances are by FAR the best loadout. The Sword and board loadout is hilariously bad, you pay 5pts get a 1 re-roll to hit in assault and a 5++ and give up BOTH S10 AP2 guns, if anything that loadout should reduce the cost of the Wraithknight. The Suncannon is nice but it is 40pts, which is terribly costed - a Suncannon and the Lance should be costed more or less the same (one is a powerful anti tank gun, one is a powerful anti infantry gun) and the 5++ is significantly worse than a S10 AP2 gun. Heres hoping its an oversight, but I'm not crossing my fingers. I am correct in thinking that MCs can't even snapfire their 3rd/4th weapons?
The sword and board is indeed utterly idiotic; you're actually paying to make the model worse. I still think the suncannon and shield + single scatterlaser is the way to go. It is ridiculously overcosted, but at least it will be absolute terror to the marine armies. And If I'm including model of that size, I want it to be individually as powerful as possible, no matter the cost. Two heavy wraithcannons just don't suffice. A warwalker with two brightlances can accomplish pretty much same firepower.
Carthuun wrote: I'm hearing per weapon upgrades for War Walkers are pretty cheap, like single digit cheap. If that's true, that's amazing.
Yeah the weapon options have dropped in cost quite a bit, notably the Bright Lance which was the most expensive is now the same cost as Scatter Lasers and Starcannons (the EML is the most expensive now). But yeah Walkers are 60pts base with 2 Cannons and BS4, pay 5pts per weapon to upgrade to Bright Lance, Scatter Laser or Starcannon, 15pts for Missiles (and 10pts on top of that to get Flakk ammo). Serpents weapons are the same deal (they just can't get Flakk). Wraithlords are also interesting now, they are 120pts base with no heavy weapons, but can get a sword (master crafted +1S) and 2 heavy weapons. So the super cheap 120pt Scatter Laser/Shuriken Cannon loadout is gone, but the 155pt EML/Bright Lance loadout changes to a 165pts 2 x Bright Lance/Scatter/Shuriken + Sword loadout which is definitely better (weapons are two singles btw, not twin linked, which as the only reason people didn't run 2 Lances before).
Alright! Weapons section is complete. All the new weapon profiles have been added(from Raziel's list at least) Might not be able to get Psychic Powers done till tomorow, but I might get relics added in later tonight.
Darge wrote: Alright! Weapons section is complete. All the new weapon profiles have been added(from Raziel's list at least) Might not be able to get Psychic Powers done till tomorow, but I might get relics added in later tonight.
Just wanted to express my appreciation with what you're doing here. I for one dislike the chaos and lack of organisation on the 4chan boards and it's so much easier and simpler the way you're doing it here. Thanks a lot!
@H.B.M.C. 2 Shuriken Cannons, Scout, Fleet, Ancient Enemy, Battle Focus (run/shoot etc), Power Field (5+ invulnerable), AV10 all round, Open topped, 2HP. They also get full access to the vehicle upgrades, so you can run Holo Fields on them as well for +1 cover if you wanted to (and can use Starengines to make them run faster lol). Its worth noting that Serpents also have full access to the vehicle upgrades, so you can run Serpents with Holos as well now (which would be 3+ cover when moving flat out, dropping all pens to glances on a 2+).
" unit. Truth is now we have too many juicy options now that just makes 180 points seem less tantalizing, but I like my units to fly or be in the backfield with some gusto!
*
mouhahahah
[/img]
brings tears of joys to my eyes. I had a list that themed mainly Warp spiders and now.....it is veeeerrrrryyyyyyy probable that it is going to be used. Just switched up 
