Skerr wrote:
No sure of cc wraithguard is fluffy but it would be cool non the less.

The fluff is arbitrary. It's purpose is to serve the miniature releases. Pretty soon it won't be "New CC Wraithguard", it'll be "CC Wraithguard have always existed, we just never showed them before".

To be fair, I've always wondered why there weren't CC Wraithguard.

They would be obscenely useful, what with the "soulless construct" idea.

 CrazyBones wrote:
What's the latest rumor for release? Early 2014?

Mid to late 2013, based on Hasting's schedule:
40k + FB Daemons (First codex in 2013)
Dark Angels
Tau
Eldar

Also, some rumors from Stickmonkey.

From Stickmonkey @ BOLS:

Eldar Miniatures (alongside the codex)
Farseer
2 Aspect Characters
2 other characters (Either HQs or Unit Upgrade characters)
New Aspect (plastic)
Wraithguard (plastic)
New Eldar tank
New Eldar Bomber

Eldar Miniatures (outside the codex)
New Flyer
Guardian Jetbikes - Shining Spears combo-box
2 existing Aspects moved to plastic
Avatar (new model, bigger than a Dreadnought)
Warp Gate (Terrain kit)

 Vhalyar wrote:
Eldar Miniatures (alongside the codex)
Farseer
2 Aspect Characters
2 other characters (Either HQs or Unit Upgrade characters)
New Aspect (plastic)
Wraithguard (plastic)
New Eldar tank
New Eldar Bomber

Eldar Miniatures (outside the codex)
New Flyer
Guardian Jetbikes - Shining Spears combo-box
2 existing Aspects moved to plastic
Avatar (new model, bigger than a Dreadnought)
Warp Gate (Terrain kit)

As foretold in the prophesy...

208263530941100 The Avatar of Khaine RE b09 Len_A 11 cc
208284511450206 Eldar Wraithguard / Cataphracts PL a14 Len_C 02 cc
208284711550201 Eldar Sky Chariots / Shining Spears PL a15 Len_C 02 cc
208285011450208 Eldar Warpspiders / Everguard PL a14 Len_C 02 cc
208285230150200 Eldar Black Warden RE c01 Len_C 02 cc
208297830180402 Phoenix Lord Kyme'doc, The Planetwister RE c01 XianD 04 cc
208281811450202 Eldar Eldritch Raiders PL a14 Len_C 02 cc
208282112050207 Eldar Webway Gate PL a20 Len_C 02 cc
208283411250206 Eldar Phoenix Lord Nuadhu, The Fireheart / Alean Vyper PL a12 Len_C 02 cc
208283512050200 Eldar Spirit Warrior PL a20 Len_C 02 cc
208283911550202 Eldar Dragon Riders PL a15 Len_C 02 cc
208286130150208 Eldar Fire Dragon Xentarch RE c01 Len_C 02 cc
208286230150207 Eldar Dire Avenger Xentarch RE c01 Len_C 02 cc
208286330150206 Eldar Howling Banshee Xentarch RE c01 Len_C 02 cc
208286430150205 Eldar Striking Scorpion Xentarch RE c01 Len_C 02 cc

The things I want for my eldar are an assault vehicle or an open toppped transport. . It would make banshees viable again. And I really want to keep the ability to just choose fortune and guide...I don't want to be reduced to hoping for a lucky roll on some daft table...

Thats it and I'll be happy

 Kanluwen wrote:
To be fair, I've always wondered why there weren't CC Wraithguard.

They would be obscenely useful, what with the "soulless construct" idea.

They are very much a construct with a soul.

They are not soulless, being powered by a soul, and speaking, etc

Stickmonkey's rumours make more sense.
CW Eldar jetbike was designed BEFORE DE jetbike, the latter being just a variation. So a new CW Eldar jetbike release seems a given to me.
CC wraithguard? Because new plastic kits usually feature 2 variants, and Iyanden also needs cc troops.

 Vhalyar wrote:

 CrazyBones wrote:
What's the latest rumor for release? Early 2014?

Mid to late 2013, based on Hasting's schedule:
40k + FB Daemons (First codex in 2013)
Dark Angels
Tau
Eldar

I can't speak for FB, but why would Daemons get a new 40k Codex? Their codex is newer than any of the other codexs listed below it AND they got a huge bump from WD. That doesn't really make much sense to me...

I think thats cause they are winning alot of tournaments and lots of CSM players bring them as allies New CSM codex=New Daemons codex I guess

 felixander wrote:

 Vhalyar wrote:

 CrazyBones wrote:
What's the latest rumor for release? Early 2014?

Mid to late 2013, based on Hasting's schedule:
40k + FB Daemons (First codex in 2013)
Dark Angels
Tau
Eldar

I can't speak for FB, but why would Daemons get a new 40k Codex? Their codex is newer than any of the other codexs listed below it AND they got a huge bump from WD. That doesn't really make much sense to me...

Because if they redo Fantasy Daemons they also redo 40k Daemons. GW doesn't redo armies based on who needs it the most, otherwise Bretonnia and Wood Elves would be top priorities, but they are not.

High Elves are also somewhere in this list, either before or after DA if I remember what Hasting said. The only thing he didn't say if the releases are mini-updates in White Dwarf or full-blown releases, so there's some ambiguity there.

 Vhalyar wrote:

 CrazyBones wrote:
What's the latest rumor for release? Early 2014?

Mid to late 2013, based on Hasting's schedule:
40k + FB Daemons (First codex in 2013)
Dark Angels
Tau
Eldar

I think it's more likely that they'll have 4 codices ready to release.

Whether they do or not will depend on sales, if the first one or two do really well no more releases, if they do badly then the others will come out

It's all about generating a steady revenue stream for their institutional investors

Do too well on year and they expect it every year.......

If they redo the Guardians, I might actually play Eldar. Most likely they'll be stuck with that same, terrible kit.

 ShatteredBlade wrote:
If they redo the Guardians, I might actually play Eldar. Most likely they'll be stuck with that same, terrible kit.

What's wrong with them? The kit isn't that bad either, with some basic head swaps or arm changes you can make a dynamic enough squad.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 Mantle wrote:
Another idea on the zentarch is if they look all fancy and HQ like they could be a type of autarch that only specialized in one aspect and therefore make that aspect troops.

That's also known as an Exarch, sorry to burst your bubble, Autarchs have mastered all aspects so you can't have an autarch specializing in one.

Ahh, I haven't picked up my eldar codex in years so I'm a little rusty on the background.

 Mantle wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 Mantle wrote:
Another idea on the zentarch is if they look all fancy and HQ like they could be a type of autarch that only specialized in one aspect and therefore make that aspect troops.

That's also known as an Exarch, sorry to burst your bubble, Autarchs have mastered all aspects so you can't have an autarch specializing in one.

Ahh, I haven't picked up my eldar codex in years so I'm a little rusty on the background.

I thought the consensus was that they were the Phoenix Lords with a new name (the Eldar word for PL)?

@KrootHawk, I like the design of the jetbike but I was hoping they would redo the guardian model, I've never liked the helmets!

In a nutshell:

Aspect Warriors are Eldar that took up a certain "craft". It's a passing phase (passing in Eldar lifetimes).
Exarchs are Aspect Warriors who couldn't move onto anything else and are stuck in that path. They're temple-guardians.
Autarchs are former Aspect Warriors that have dabbled in a variety of aspects and now are pretty much a General of the military.
Phoenix Lords are reincarnating special characters.
Xentachs are something new. Any 'concensus' is pure speculation because GW can and will retcon all they want.

Plus Xentarchs could very well just be the new word for Exarch.

I hope not. Exarch sounds much cooler than Xentarch in my opinion.

 Far Seer wrote:
I hope not. Exarch sounds much cooler than Xentarch in my opinion.

"Xentarch" sounds like a way to turn the Eldar into the Xeriously Force. Which, while not exactly matching the modern GW aesthetic in actuality, sure seems to match it in spirit.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Stickmonkey's rumours make more sense.
CW Eldar jetbike was designed BEFORE DE jetbike, the latter being just a variation. So a new CW Eldar jetbike release seems a given to me.
CC wraithguard? Because new plastic kits usually feature 2 variants, and Iyanden also needs cc troops.

Maybe.

But if the recent CSM release is anything to go buy, it would seem that GW's first priority is to have all "new units" covered with the initial release wave (likely to avoid another "Tervigon'/"Chapterhouse issue")

Whatever else already exists in the line (CSM Cult Marines, Eldar Jetbikes etc..) can probably take a backseat.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Whatever else already exists in the line (CSM Cult Marines, Eldar Jetbikes etc..) can probably take a backseat.

Except maybe Warlock jetbike kits =D

I am with you on warlock bikes as well as farseer bikes.

Anyone seen the chapter house conversions in person? I think their pretty cool myself and am thinking of getting them.

Not a big fan of the Chapterhouse ones. $15 for an upgrade kit on a $15 model? Eek. I'm way too cheap for that.

xentarchs could be used in the same way tau work. Exarch is the "squad leader" upgrade, while the Xentarch is the "Shas'ui" upgrade

I got the CHS kit, but the bike parts look too fiddly for me to dive in yet. I think I'll save them for an Autarch jetbike.

The Farseer figure looks great though, both torsos. And, there are almost enough parts to make a Warlock with the spares.

Seconded: Chapterhouse riders look ace, but jetbike parts are not enough to make the old jetbike look good, but I use other bikes anyway, so no problem.

Hello,

IMHO the eldar need a total revamp. The concept that Gav Thorpe worked out for them back in 3rd ed, just doesnt work. Its not a bash on Thorpe, we could go on and on about that. He is a GREAT creative writer, but his game rules are a little lacking...

But, anyway..

Fix Fire dragons, give them 3+ save and drop the melta bombs...they are a shooting unit. Half the time when they pop a tank in HTH, they take enough casualties to make them almost worthless...

Make the AVATAR AWESOME!!! I remember paying 300 pts under 2nd ed and he was nigh unstoppable!! Now he dies to GROT BLASTERS!!!! Its a game of dice, and whoever can force the opponenet to make and fail enough saves, wins the day... Make him INVULNERABLE to any weapon strength less than his toughness.

Give the farseers the ablility to pick their psychic powers...walking into a battle with the wrong powers is stupid...( Well Farseer Ausi, your fighting Orks, so take some psychic powers that target one or two characters...that should work!! )

Crank up the range of the Shuriken Catapult to 24" Back in the day it was superior to the Bolter and just chewed through units. When a unit of guardians or dire avengers rolls up on an opposing unit, they either destroy them utterly by combining firepower of multiple units or the avengers or guardians die the next round from the retaliation..Either way, its not a very sporting way to play..Its not that eldar players want ULTIMATE DOMINATION, more like..give our boys a chance without having to gang up on my opponent..

And I agree with a number of other posters...The eldar need an assault vehicle. Having to leave my Banshees out in the open for an entire round and just hoping and praying that my opponent has bad luck is again not a very sporting way to play..

Now, I really hope those rumors of Dragon Knights are true...Ive been holding onto units since 2nd ed!!

Anybody else have some feedback?

Well in 2nd we paid a lot more for everything. Space Marines were 30 points each and are now ~16. So using that as a standard of measurement the Avatar has stayed on that 300 point track. But YES he is supposed to be Khaine incarnate, yet he has the same Toughness/Strength as Mephiston... I'd say T7 with 2+/3++ and 4+ FNP and cost him absurdly high. He's slow and is unable to hide inside of squads like most megakillers can.

You make some fine points Felix..

I think we both agree, the Eldar need a boost and the current Avatar just doesnt cut it.

I would like to point out the Eldar Corsair list from FW "Fall of Mymeara".

That list is AWESOME!!! The corsairs use Jetpacks and 24" str 3 lasblasters. They also have access to the Warp Hunter...36" D-cannons using the large blast template!!

They play like the Eldar in BFG---like trying to net guppies in a fish tank.

Check out the list...thats what eldar should be like!!

Andyman

Well CW can use the Warp Hunter too! And yeah it's awesome but I think it's a great representation of the Corsairs, having extremely varying weaponry. I would like to see the CW codex to be similar but obviously different. I love aspect warriors and just wish they were all viable.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

As foretold in the prophesy...

It's a stretch to say that these rumors match, actually. There's a bit of overlap, but not that much.

I was thinking about the warpspider everguard kit. We know what both are, yet I can't see how you could make a kit that uses the same parts to make separate units.

This is how it was described by Kirby, who put out the rumor before the huge-likely-fake list.

Eldar Warpspiders/Everguard

5 per box

Spiders: whole squad looks like the old exarch, no huge weapon, helmets smaller, but same shape, wrist blades, two small spinner weapons on rod mount from the back. Spider web like straps on the chest that hold the backpack (doesn’t look as broad as the old version), running, jumping and slightly cowering poses, exarch has extra pair of weapons on the cover, don’t remember the back pictures

Everguard: aspect warrior body with runes on the chest, same collar as warpspiders but no mandible arcs and gas masks, different more warlock-like face plate and small arc at back of the head, double bladed two-handed spears, very dynamic models, jets from the side/underside of the backpack, squad leader has larger head-arc, mantle hangs over the backpack, flies in the wind

Everguards were only seen in what... a single picture? Wouldn't be surprising if their concept was massively updated to something compatible with Warp Spiders. Especially if they are jump infantry.

Where are people seeing the upcoming release of the models? As in pictures

overlordweasel wrote:
Where are people seeing the upcoming release of the models? As in pictures

There are no pictures.

 Vhalyar wrote:

overlordweasel wrote:
Where are people seeing the upcoming release of the models? As in pictures

There are no pictures.

...yet!

There is a fair amount of Wishlisting though!

 felixander wrote:
Well in 2nd we paid a lot more for everything. Space Marines were 30 points each and are now ~16. So using that as a standard of measurement the Avatar has stayed on that 300 point track. But YES he is supposed to be Khaine incarnate, yet he has the same Toughness/Strength as Mephiston... I'd say T7 with 2+/3++ and 4+ FNP and cost him absurdly high. He's slow and is unable to hide inside of squads like most megakillers can.

Those sort of stats are crazy. Like 400+ points to balance crazy. An Avatar is effectively a Greater Daemon, so look at those for inspiration. Something far closer to S7 T6 4 wounds with 2/3+ and 4++. He is big and has his shining spear, but his major power would be an inspiring presence to nearby Eldar, giving things like Fearless and Furious Charge.

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
Give the farseers the ablility to pick their psychic powers...walking into a battle with the wrong powers is stupid...( Well Farseer Ausi, your fighting Orks, so take some psychic powers that target one or two characters...that should work!! )

It's a mechanic of 6th edition. Best get used to it.

MajorWesJanson wrote:

 felixander wrote:
Well in 2nd we paid a lot more for everything. Space Marines were 30 points each and are now ~16. So using that as a standard of measurement the Avatar has stayed on that 300 point track. But YES he is supposed to be Khaine incarnate, yet he has the same Toughness/Strength as Mephiston... I'd say T7 with 2+/3++ and 4+ FNP and cost him absurdly high. He's slow and is unable to hide inside of squads like most megakillers can.

Those sort of stats are crazy. Like 400+ points to balance crazy. An Avatar is effectively a Greater Daemon, so look at those for inspiration. Something far closer to S7 T6 4 wounds with 2/3+ and 4++. He is big and has his shining spear, but his major power would be an inspiring presence to nearby Eldar, giving things like Fearless and Furious Charge.

They are indeed "tots cray-cray" but compare him to a Bloodthirster:

Now I know that comparing things across Codex isn't fair as things differ between them for balance... but deal with it.

Compared to my proposed (not really well thought out, just ideas wordvomited out) Avatar, the Bloodthirster is -1T, -1i, and -1Sv/-1invulnSv but has Demonic Flight (which is HUGE advantage and costs 60 points alone), +1A and Furious Charge. The Avatar has the Inspiring Aura, Molten Body, FnP and a meltagun over him. I think the 60 points for the flight evenly trades for the Sv increases (if not against the Avatar). Let's pretend the initiative and attacks characteristics even out. Meaning that you add on +1T (+20), Inspiring Aura(+20), Molten Body(+15), FnP (+20) and Meltagun (let's trade this for Furious Charge). That's (generically speaking) ~350. Woop?

 -Loki- wrote:

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
Give the farseers the ablility to pick their psychic powers...walking into a battle with the wrong powers is stupid...( Well Farseer Ausi, your fighting Orks, so take some psychic powers that target one or two characters...that should work!! )

It's a mechanic of 6th edition. Best get used to it.

I don't know, if they really wanted to pimp the fluff of Eldar being the best psykers in the galaxy, maybe they'd get some sort of way to choose or at least re-roll their powers. Especially since, fluffwise, Eldar never really go into a fight at all if they're not prepared and almost sure it'll turn out well. They should have some way of having their psykers be better, wheether that comes from better powers, more powers, or more reliably getting the powers you want.

Nope, you may be able to see a thousand years into the future but you would have no idea what psychic powers you've been trained to use..

That's what Primaris powers are for, but I wouldn't find it surprising if Eldar had a way of mucking with the tables. If every army should have some form of gimmick, that would fit as their version of CSM's chaos boons.

I would LOVE an farseer in a (vyper-like) chariot. It just has something about it... swooping around the battlefield and psyking units up to superhuman (sorry, they're Eldar so they are already) levels... I won't have enough HQ slots!

In second edition Vypers could Transport a single model, right? I think that'd be sick if they at least brought that back =P

Indeed, they did have the "Fighting Platform". And yes, they were awesome!! But back then under 2nd ed, we got to pick our powers and oftentimes, the purchased characters were better than the named characters in the codex.

Yeah guys, I think the new Eldar codex will be well written and yes they will get some cool new units, but lets be honest with each other...Unless the Shuriken Catapult is upgraded, the army will still play the same way...gang up on my enemy and overwhelm him with firepower. Now, I know thats the name of the game in general..force your opponent to fail his saves by massing wounds on him, I just hate seeing the look in my opponents eyes when 2 10 strong DA units roll up and blast his marines into smithereens. It seems to be a little too much of a "pendulum" (spelling?) army. Its either ALL or NOTHING.

If you will notice..the codex that have been obviously written for 6th ed ( DE, Crons, GK and of course CSM ) have been what I like to call either the "Steamroller" or "Snowball" lists. The crons and gk are steamrollers and the csm and de are snowballs. Steamrollers start and finish strong. Snowballs start mediocre and get better as the game progresses. The Eldar need to be a steamroller made out of a bullet train. They should use SPEED and FIRPOWER to win games. To have restricted their basic trooper to a 12" range and average BS just goes counter to the whole design philosophy. The Dark Eldar are a great example of effective precision firpower. Give that back to the Eldar. We dont want a mirror image of the DE codex, just make the units that are designed to shoot effective at shooting. And make the hand to hand unit effective as well. They dont have to be overpowering, just give them a fighting chance.

Just a few thoughts..

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
Yeah guys, I think the new Eldar codex will be well written and yes they will get some cool new units, but lets be honest with each other...Unless the Shuriken Catapult is upgraded, the army will still play the same way...gang up on my enemy and overwhelm him with firepower. Now, I know thats the name of the game in general..force your opponent to fail his saves by massing wounds on him, I just hate seeing the look in my opponents eyes when 2 10 strong DA units roll up and blast his marines into smithereens. It seems to be a little too much of a "pendulum" (spelling?) army. Its either ALL or NOTHING.

Dire Avengers are actually fine where they are. No other troop in the game has a 2-3 Shot Assault Weapon at 18". Guardians, not so much. If the whispers of Corsairs bleeding into Craftworld are true, Guardians may get their lasblasters back and that'll be fine.

Eldar have always been about mass quantities of shots both big and small. Old Starcannons fired three AP2 shots. Scatter lasers and Warp Spider rifles shoot six str6 shots. Dark Reapers fire two missiles each with their launchers. The Sun
Pretty much everything in the army fires two shots. In the case of the Spider Exarch or the Hawk Exarch, they fire a million shots. Everything that doesn't fire multiple shots either is a pistol/sidearm or has funky rules (Vibro, Distortion, Lance, Prism Focus, etc)

I've always seen Eldar as the army of "Their Arrogance is only matched by their Firepower".
Orks have tons of bodies what fire a lot of shots and miss most. Tyranids have a lot of expendable bodies, some of them with guns. Imperial Guard have lots of bodies with heavy weapon backup.
Eldar fill the niche of small number of bodies with multiple and/or quality shots.

 Absolutionis wrote:
Dire Avengers are actually fine where they are. No other troop in the game has a 2-3 Shot Assault Weapon at 18"

Devilgants, which would give you a hit per 6.6 points spent vs Dire Avengers hit per 9 points spent. And the niche of small number of models doesn't work out so great at 3 toughness with a non-MEQ save.

I think Dire Avengers were fine in 5th, but the Rapid Fire buff really hurt them. They no longer can harass Rapid Fire armies, and will take a serious beating before being able to respond in turn.

Ork big shootas are 3 shot
Ork Shootas are 2 shot

Both are assault.

Ork Shoota Boyz are BS2 AP6. They're meant to miss in large numbers.

Tyranid Devilgaunts are BS3 AP- on a body with a 6+ save. They're meant to be average and they're great for it.

Dire Avengers are BS4, fire AP5 shots, and are on a body with a 4+ save (they get an armor save against bolters). They're as accurate as a troop could be and their role is to pour out tons of bullets.

Their niche in the game is fine. They just need to be updated to be able to stand up to the power creep.

 Absolutionis wrote:
Ork Shoota Boyz are BS2 AP6. They're meant to miss in large numbers.

Tyranid Devilgaunts are BS3 AP- on a body with a 6+ save. They're meant to be average and they're great for it.

Dire Avengers are BS4, fire AP5 shots, and are on a body with a 4+ save (they get an armor save against bolters). They're as accurate as a troop could be and their role is to pour out tons of bullets.

Their niche in the game is fine. They just need to be updated to be able to stand up to the power creep.

Yeah that's a pretty terrible comparison.

Shoota boys are also WS4/T4/A2 Furious Charge and cost HALF as much. Meaning they can dish out more damage in melee and have twice the number of bodies.

Termagaunts easily get Fearless and unlock a MC as a troops choice who will on average pump out 40+ more of those lil' beasties. Oh and did I mention how cheap they are? For the price of 5 DA you can get 12 Gaunts.

However, all of these comparisons are a Specialist Army to a horde army, so neither of the arguments carry complete truth.

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
but lets be honest with each other...Unless the Shuriken Catapult is upgraded, the army will still play the same way...gang up on my enemy and overwhelm him with firepower.

You say that as though that was not how the Eldar have played since their earliest days. Way back in 2nd edition, my entire strategy was "utilize Eldar speed to keep my army in cover and keep my opponent unaware of my plans, then suddenly converge on whatever it was I needed to destroy, destroy it, and then let my army spread out again." Complaining about Eldar ganging up on the enemy strikes me as a bit like complaining about Orks being numerous but unskilled.

 felixander wrote:

 Absolutionis wrote:
Ork Shoota Boyz are BS2 AP6. They're meant to miss in large numbers.

Tyranid Devilgaunts are BS3 AP- on a body with a 6+ save. They're meant to be average and they're great for it.

Dire Avengers are BS4, fire AP5 shots, and are on a body with a 4+ save (they get an armor save against bolters). They're as accurate as a troop could be and their role is to pour out tons of bullets.

Their niche in the game is fine. They just need to be updated to be able to stand up to the power creep.

Yeah that's a pretty terrible comparison.

Shoota boys are also WS4/T4/A2 Furious Charge and cost HALF as much. Meaning they can dish out more damage in melee and have twice the number of bodies.

Termagaunts easily get Fearless and unlock a MC as a troops choice who will on average pump out 40+ more of those lil' beasties. Oh and did I mention how cheap they are? For the price of 5 DA you can get 12 Gaunts.

However, all of these comparisons are a Specialist Army to a horde army, so neither of the arguments carry complete truth.

Taken in a vacuum, yes, this is a poor comparison.

However, if you would read the conversation, it makes sense.

It was a response to FarseerAndyman's concern that Eldar are about large amounts of shots. And they are. They fire lots of decent-quality bullets with good accuracy. That is their niche in the 40k game.

The rest of what you're talking about is irrelevant.

As a final aside, Devilgaunts (Termies with devourers) are 10pt. We weren't talking about naked Termagaunts.

 -Loki- wrote:

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
Give the farseers the ablility to pick their psychic powers...walking into a battle with the wrong powers is stupid...( Well Farseer Ausi, your fighting Orks, so take some psychic powers that target one or two characters...that should work!! )

It's a mechanic of 6th edition. Best get used to it.

Cinematic!

GW Intern: "Hey guys, I looked in every thesaurus on earth like you asked me to, and none of them have 'cinematic' as a synonym of 'random'. Maybe we should take this into account in the next-" BLAM "HERESY!"

codemonkey wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
Give the farseers the ablility to pick their psychic powers...walking into a battle with the wrong powers is stupid...( Well Farseer Ausi, your fighting Orks, so take some psychic powers that target one or two characters...that should work!! )

It's a mechanic of 6th edition. Best get used to it.

Cinematic!

GW Intern: "Hey guys, I looked in every thesaurus on earth like you asked me to, and none of them have 'cinematic' as a synonym of 'random'. Maybe we should take this into account in the next-" BLAM "HERESY!"

I was going to question whether GW had interns, then I realized unpaid labor is right up their alley.

As for DA price, the thing is the upgrades to Eldar troops are too expensive.
For example, you count Space Marine TAC at 16 points and Dire Avenger at 12. But even at 10 guys strong with Exarch (which is free for IoM) and Bladestorm (for the arguments sake let's say it equals CT and ATSKNF and possibly grenades) and you're looking at 14+. At 5 guys it's 16+.
If they gave us cheaper / free Exarch (even at full unit) and a discount for powers it would go a long way of balancing the unit price. Plus even smaller units could retain their special abilities and not just be vehicle upgrades.
Add 12 points for sergeant and 15 points for split fire to Long Fangs and suddenly they are not as horribly priced. We have this xenos tax on all our units.

Devastator is a marine with heavy weapon. Assault marine is just a marine with a jumppack.
I don't want this for Eldar units. Giving them all unique skills is the way to go but at those horrible prices the difference between the aspecs is mostly the gun / armour and nothing else.

Good Morning Fellas,

I love the comparisons back and forth.

In regard to the Shuriken Catapult, I guess what Im trying to say is this...

Make the weapon effective in regards to how the army is to be played. If they are a hand to hand army then continue with the short range and overwhelming numbers of average shots ( guardians ) or if they are a shooty army then give it an 18" range just like the DA version and make the DA version 24" rapid fire.

The whole thrust of the discussion is "Make the army effective at what it is supposed to do."

I can just hear the Warseers discussing the forthcoming battle....

"Muster the bakers and carpenters to pilot our most prescious war machines, call forth the Howling Banshees...those Carnifex need to be dispatched and by the way..Make sure the Avatar puts on his bullet proof vest, those termagants are just deadly accurate.."

The army book was written by Gav Thorpe..now we could go on and on about his rules, but he just missed the mark. And Phil Kelley had to follow the mould. The design philosophy under 3rd, 4th and 5th was ineffective. They should play like the Eldar play in BattleFleet Gothic...Fast, lots of accurate firepower and when you finally get ahold of them they just fall apart.

So hopefully Phil will have been given a little more liberty to fix the list. The DE list is terrific and if he follows that path, the Eldar should be pretty good.

I thought Phil Kelly had been quoted as saying he didn't want to be 'the eldar guy' and that he wouldn't be doing the next eldar codex.

Although, since I play Eldar, chaos and space woves...I'd quite like him to...

Phil Kelly has to write the Eldar Codex.
Imagine if we got someone like Cruddace and our codex was made completely unplayable. Sadtime.
Imagine if we had Ward write it and we became so broken it wasn't fun to play anymore. Saddertime.
Imagine if Phil Kelly wrote our codex again and we had an awesome but balanced book (again) that would allow us to play specific craftworlds and have variable styles of play. Megaawesomefuntime.

I'm gonna start a "Make Phil Kelly Write the Next Eldar Codex, Promptly" fund.

PredaKhaine wrote:
I thought Phil Kelly had been quoted as saying he didn't want to be 'the eldar guy' and that he wouldn't be doing the next eldar codex.

Although, since I play Eldar, chaos and space woves...I'd quite like him too...

I think it was right after the DE got released, and he was saying he wanted to do something different next time.

Which he did, In CSM.

With a bit of luck we'll get him back for Eldar and gods willing Orks.

Orks as written by Ward - could be ....um.... interesting..*cough*. He ballsed up OaG for fantasy because he didn't like them.

Orks as written by Cruddace - 50/50 chance of a workable codex, but i'm not holding my breath...

 felixander wrote:
I'm gonna start a "Make Phil Kelly Write the Next Eldar Codex, Promptly" fund.

Who or what do I need to give money to to make this happen?

So...

Are there any actual recent/new rumors to discuss in here?

If not, this looks to be moved to 40K General pretty soon.

Here some anonymous email received by natfka, so take these rumours with the usual extra precautions:

A couple notes that you might find interesting:
As of 03/01/2013

- Autarchs take Paths. These represent completed paths they have walked and are tied to the various aspects. By taking a path you make the respective aspect warrior a troop choice (the exception are reapers who just become scoring)

- Overall point cost reduction (guardians see it the most, aspect warriors see it the least, but are instead a fair margin better with only a minor cost decrease for two of the schools).

- new special rule that influence how howling banshees interact in combat. It's current iteration really makes them feel like glass cannons that are amazing at what they're designed to do.

-Seer councils have brotherhood of psykers (the farseers still cast their own abilities in addition, but two farseers together cast more than 2 farseers separately)

- in general, aspect warriors are hyper focused and hyper successful if used properly
- No new aspect
- 2 new flyers
- lots of units get access to skyfire
- new tank (on falcon chasis)
- Avatar is buffed a lot
- Two new special characters
- exarchs are all really good in duels in different ways
- farseers are still awesome psykers
- warlocks improve deny the witch.
- falcon/wave serpent point reduction
- way to make some of the craftworld specific lists
- additional rules for allying with dark eldar
- expanded fluff on the war in heaven

I'm gonna put good money on Dark Reapers being the new Terminators with TH/SS. Dunno why, I just see it being so.

- additional rules for allying with dark eldar

Aaaand here's where we can, with complete and utmost certainty, call FAAAAKE. Move along, everyone.

Why's that? Why wouldn't Eldar ally with Dark Eldar?

 Snrub wrote:
Why's that? Why wouldn't Eldar ally with Dark Eldar?

We've had three 6th edition Codexes so far and it's painfully obvious that GW is actively avoiding any allies-specific rules, even between CSM and Daemons, which used to be a single army not so long ago. The only reasonable explanation is that they are leaving the door open to remove allies come 7th edition. Ergo, any rumour claiming special provisions for allies is clearly fabricated.

Hmm ok that makes sense. I thought you were calling false from a fluff perspective not a rules one.

 lord_blackfang wrote:


We've had three 6th edition Codexes so far and it's painfully obvious that GW is actively avoiding any allies-specific rules, even between CSM and Daemons, which used to be a single army not so long ago. The only reasonable explanation is that they are leaving the door open to remove allies come 7th edition. Ergo, any rumour claiming special provisions for allies is clearly fabricated.

That would be a fair point if GW didn't have a long history of changing design focus partway through editions.

 insaniak wrote:
That would be a fair point if GW didn't have a long history of changing design focus partway through editions.

Don't worry, I'm already stockpiling some righteous indignation for when the new GK come out and have special rules for buffing their allied SM and IG, while CSM/CD for the most part can't even use each others' teleport homers. But I don't expect it to happen quite so soon.

On the other hand they took great pains to cram CSM Codex and WoC armybook so full with new daemons, that the old distinction becomes almost obsolete and makes adding special daemon ally rules not helpfull selling these as distinct armies.

In the end this new rumour set stands opposed to your speculations. Even if your speculations make more sense than natfka rumours.

- Overall point cost reduction (guardians see it the most, aspect warriors see it the least, but are instead a fair margin better with only a minor cost decrease for two of the schools).

- new special rule that influence how howling banshees interact in combat. It's current iteration really makes them feel like glass cannons that are amazing at what they're designed to do.

- No new aspect

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
Why's that? Why wouldn't Eldar ally with Dark Eldar?

We've had three 6th edition Codexes so far and it's painfully obvious that GW is actively avoiding any allies-specific rules, even between CSM and Daemons, which used to be a single army not so long ago. The only reasonable explanation is that they are leaving the door open to remove allies come 7th edition. Ergo, any rumour claiming special provisions for allies is clearly fabricated.

I dunno. It's not that unbelievable, provided you don't assume it to simply be "beneficial rules".

It could be a further list of what can and cannot ally, or how they use the allies matrix in the Dark Eldar and Eldar lists.
I could easily see something like:
Rangers and Harlequins can be used in Dark Eldar Cabal lists with no penalties and Craftworld Eldar lists with no penalties, but suffer penalties in Wych Cults or Haemonculi Covens.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
Why's that? Why wouldn't Eldar ally with Dark Eldar?

We've had three 6th edition Codexes so far and it's painfully obvious that GW is actively avoiding any allies-specific rules, even between CSM and Daemons, which used to be a single army not so long ago. The only reasonable explanation is that they are leaving the door open to remove allies come 7th edition. Ergo, any rumour claiming special provisions for allies is clearly fabricated.

I dunno. It's not that unbelievable, provided you don't assume it to simply be "beneficial rules".

It could be a further list of what can and cannot ally, or how they use the allies matrix in the Dark Eldar and Eldar lists.
I could easily see something like:
Rangers and Harlequins can be used in Dark Eldar Cabal lists with no penalties and Craftworld Eldar lists with no penalties, but suffer penalties in Wych Cults or Haemonculi Covens.

Maybe even that Psykers impose greater penalties for DE (or are not allowed to be taken at all, at least in Vect lists) or claryfying that all eldar ARE in fact Eldar for the purposes of psychic powers. It would be fun if Pathfinders could be taken more easily for DE armies, or if certain DE units could be taken more easily in Eldar armies (IE, if you are using 2+ guardian units in your list, then DE units may be taken as allies at a 2 for 1 slot allowance, since Guardian use means the Craftworld is under attack, and nearby DE tend to drop their business to aid craftworlds under direct attack.) Still hoping for Maidenworld rules.

I'm still firmly under the belief that GW would be better off making a supplement book that gave fluff for various types of army combos allowed under the Allies system. I think it would make a considerable amount of money, even if it was little more than paint schemes, modelling ideas, fluff bits, and so on. "Inducted Guardsmen" for instance, outlining the organization and cooperation between units of guardsmen used solely by the Ordo Malleus. "Eldar Corsairs," for a list of Eldar and Dark Eldar units that would appear in a typical Corsair raiding party, and examples of head swaps, model adjustments, and other substitutions to smooth out the edges of DE models and "slightly spike up" CE models. Or a "Witch hunter task force" of Sisters of Battle and Black Templars. Will it be just as obsolete as any other book the second the next Codex come out? Sure. But since its a hobby book more than a rule book, it could have continued value for some time.

Though for that matter I think it would make a great series of articles in White Dwarf. Added value for practically no work, and they could keep the series going for the entirety of 6e.

It could also be something simple like: DE models in CWE units do not benefit from Eldar powers.

It looks reasonable, its just the thing about allying with DE makes me think this is fake.

From a rules perspective or fluff one TH? Rules wise, maybe, depends on what it actually turns out to be, they already share Harlequins, as others have noted could be restrictions, limitations on powers etc, of course it might be they can literally add units into the list without the requirement of an allied force. Scary, but it wouldn't surprise me, if a step back to the old GK days.

Of course fluff wise it is fine to have them as alies, Dark Eldar and Eldar are nothing like Asur and Druchii in their relations. Its more of a general avoidance, but I suspect a Farseer would let an entire Human world burn to save a Dark Eldar life as much as he/she would for a Eldar one.

As to the points reduction, I pretty much expected it, seems a sly way to increase army size without a huge overhaul to the armies. Doesn't come across immediately as a huge change, in fact we take it as a positive for how much we can field now and happily add more figures to our current list. Win win for GW.

Re the DE Ally thing: It may have to do with the fact that Harlequins are in both books, and maybe that Harlequins from either detachment may be treated as both Eldar and Dark Eldar models, and may use allied transports.

If the allying rule change is true, I also expect it to be a restriction or have a drawback. Alternatively something along the lines of Harlequins count as both Eldar and Dark Eldar regardless of which slot they used, or Dark Eldar count as Eldar for X rules. (Fluff wise, do Craftworld Eldar still see Dark Eldar as Eldar?)

Just listing off thoughts now:
I hope the Autarch Paths is true, I would love to be able to field a pure Aspect Warrior army of any aspect (or build a force centered on one).

As much as I hate the concept of Eldar being playable as a hoard/blob, we do need something to pack numbers sometimes. We have a specialist for everything, and guardians seem to be a specialist cannon fodder.
I'd be very glad if the do end up having put more into buffing units than reducing their costs. We're a dying race, fewer numbers suit us better.

I hope these special rules are giving the banshees some options rather than just a flat "you get this" (same with other Aspects). What we had for a brief time before the errata where banshees had power weapons, not power swords, was beautiful. Their core role didn't change, but how you implemented it on could.

Only 2 new flyers, 1 tank and 2 characters seems odd, though I suppose it doesn't rule out new none-aspect units (such as the alternate wraithguard)

Particularly if unit powers are still tied in to their Exarch, I'd be glad to see a boost in the challenge ability.

Pyro-Druid wrote:
(Fluff wise, do Craftworld Eldar still see Dark Eldar as Eldar?)

Yes, very much so. It's not like Imperium vs Chaos at all. Eldar see Dark Eldar as the brother that dropped out of school, joined a gang, and started doing drugs; they don't approve of their brother's actions, but they're still kin and will gladly obliterate gallons of humans to ensure their survival. Dark Eldar are less altruistic towards their Craftworld kin, but will take the opportunity to 'convert' their bro to their point of view through pain and threats... it's a much more altruistic mercy than what they usually give their victims. Also, DE tend to sacrifice other Eldar regardless of if they're Craftworld or not.

...I guess technically it's more like the Craftworld Eldar is the older brother that got beat out of the gang, stopped doing drugs, went to school, and became a lawyer. Occasionally, the stuck-up older brother has to bail the little mischievous darker brother out of trouble because he's still kin.

Quark wrote:
If true, the guardians thing worries me. They're not expensive, they have a terrible weapon. Especially after the rapid fire rule change. 12" assault scares absolutely no one. But hey, let's make a blob troop for the race that is supposed to treat every life as sacred.

They could just change the fluff to make the Eldar horribly class-conscious, with the Guardians as the poor white trash or peasant levies, intended to die in droves while the better folk survive unscathed. Because that's pretty much how it plays out. It'd make sense too, since the Eldar already treat every other form of sentient life as scum unfitting of their notice, so having their upper crust extending that attitude to the plebs of their own race is just a short leap of logic away. It'd also be more interesting than the current Eldar background, and would give them internal tensions and detail as a people that I feel they've always been lacking.

 Absolutionis wrote:

Pyro-Druid wrote:
(Fluff wise, do Craftworld Eldar still see Dark Eldar as Eldar?)

Yes, very much so. It's not like Imperium vs Chaos at all. Eldar see Dark Eldar as the brother that dropped out of school, joined a gang, and started doing drugs; they don't approve of their brother's actions, but they're still kin and will gladly obliterate gallons of humans to ensure their survival. Dark Eldar are less altruistic towards their Craftworld kin, but will take the opportunity to 'convert' their bro to their point of view through pain and threats... it's a much more altruistic mercy than what they usually give their victims. Also, DE tend to sacrifice other Eldar regardless of if they're Craftworld or not.

...I guess technically it's more like the Craftworld Eldar is the older brother that got beat out of the gang, stopped doing drugs, went to school, and became a lawyer. Occasionally, the stuck-up older brother has to bail the little mischievous darker brother out of trouble because he's still kin.

Thanks for clarifying that for me, I had wondered for a while and never got around to searching. Guess that makes the whole Ynnead, God of the Dead, plan a lot harder to pull off.

It still shoots all prior eldar fluff to hell... brink of extinction means not many left alive, hence the necessary extreme devotion to paths... even guardians are supposed to match scout marines in abilities but even more precious in life due to each craftworld having 200-500,000 members... Even if they got someone to write codex who would just come up with new stuff, introducing a meat-shield moniker to guardians would be like saying tyranids arent as hungry as they used to be... just doesnt work or make a lick of sense

Rob I think your numbers are off. The Craftworld Eldar are a dying species, but there are still billions (if not.trillions) of them left. Dwindling does not mean small, it just means decreasing.

From an anonymous email to Darnok over at Warseer:

Every 3-4 months, as an independent retailer, we get a list of items that must be stocked. These are changed in advanced so we don't order old stock, and to give us a change to sell off old stock before new items turn up. The last one in about October / November added a few basic Marine items but dropped Tau Battlesuits, which would tie in with concepts of new battlesuits and new Tau for Spring / Easter.

Yesterday I got the new list, which had a lot of changes in the Fantasy sections. I no longer have to stock High Elves Spearmen, Wood Elves, Bret Knights or Dwarf Warriors. It can therefore be reasonably speculated that these core troop choices will be relaunched in the next 6 - 8 months. The only change in 40k was I no longer have to stock any Eldar (not even DA or Guardians).

I know its not radical or ground breaking and gives no specific dates, but the Bret / Wood /Dwarf news I think is a bit new.

even if a quarter of the reported new units come out I'll have to start yet another army

Larry Vela over at BOLS wrote:-New Eldar "large tank" is being worked on (not the same as the new falcon variant)
-Guardian/Storm Guardian combo plastic box
-Guardian jetbikes/Shining Spear combo box

Aha, you found the thread. I was looking for it earlier and got distracted.

It is easy for me to find rumour threads I started

If they simply unlocked the option to make Aspect Warriors scoring, I'd happily play the codex as is.

Hopefully there will be some new models I can use with older editions. I am remarkably happy with how good a simple Guardian "becomes" when using 2nd edition rules versus the current rules.

 Kroothawk wrote:

- Autarchs take Paths. These represent completed paths they have walked and are tied to the various aspects. By taking a path you make the respective aspect warrior a troop choice (the exception are reapers who just become scoring)

So I could actually bring a Stormwind?!

I just hope they do something to offset the short range of the shuriken catapult. My friend who just picked up Eldar "for fluff reasons" might not last long otherwise.

Why not just can the entire idea of guardians? You could still leave in some fluff reference to how occasionally civilian eldar are conscripted if the craftworld is under direct attack, but there doesn't need to be two units dedicated to it. More than that, actually since all the vehicles are supposedly driven by guardians. But they don't need to be an actual unit. Gav has come out, years ago, and said that he regrets the entire focus on and expansion of the guardians in the 3rd ed codex. It didn't make sense 15 years ago, and it's still dumb. Just drop them entirely from the book, but include a troops choice of corsairs-- they can use the same miniatures. I mean, how often in the background do we hear about these corsairs? And they aren't represented in any codex outside of FW. That's dumb.

I'm optimistic about the book. Really Eldar have been stagnant since 3rd ed. It got worse when the craftworld book was replaced by the 4th ed codex and all the craftworlds lost their flavor and special abilities. Hopefully with a return to the background driven game play we have seen this edition (at least for Dark Angels) some of that will return. I'm not so much worried about them being a power army, but they are just so bland and undifferentiated right now. Even their background is a mess- it hasn't been updated when it is crucial to the background of the entire universe.

Eldar weren't my first army, but I've had them since I could roll on the disruption table with my rangers and pathfinders were an elite choice. I just want to see a diversity of rules and the ability to really make a unique army, regardless of how powerful it is. I am hoping this one falls on the Dark Angels side of the fence, not the Chaos Space Marines side-- another army that has been really languishing since midway through third edition. At least armories are starting to make a comeback. With that in mind, the initial rumors seem spot on with what I would hope would happen with the army. The newer rumours, less so. GW has to realize that nothing will expand the player base like a really successful Eldar Codex though.

The Craftworlds didn't lose their special abilities. You can still run Seer Council, Wraithguard Troops, Jetbike Troops, Pathfinders, and tons of Aspect Warriors. Court of the Young King is the only thing you can't run.

Really, GW did the thing they should have done with all the Space Marine lists and just consolidated every Eldar Craftworld into one codex.

 Absolutionis wrote:
The Craftworlds didn't lose their special abilities. You can still run Seer Council, Wraithguard Troops, Jetbike Troops, Pathfinders, and tons of Aspect Warriors. Court of the Young King is the only thing you can't run.

Really, GW did the thing they should have done with all the Space Marine lists and just consolidated every Eldar Craftworld into one codex.

What about my Ranger Disruption Table? Huh? HUH? That rule was fun for everyone!

Don't agree at all.

Ulthwe lost black guardians, which was a major part of their background and playing style

Alaitoc lost the disruption table and the abilities of pathfinders were seriously nerfed by moving them from elites to troops, which I didn't understand since there was already an outcast troops choice... rangers.

Biel Tan? Seriously? They could take aspect warriors as troops. Oooo I guess they can take dire avengers as troops now. Be still my heart. Major nerf, made the army literally unplayable- not from a balance perspective it just literally wasn't possible.

There was way more to the craftworld lists than what you mentioned. Also... in the third edition codex, all Craftworld eldar were consolidated into one codex... funnily enough called 'Craftworld Eldar'. So, don't really understand your point there. Even in one codex they had far more dimension than they do now.

As much as I hate it, GW will probably stop releasing new space marines every 10 minutes when they stop being able to cash in so easily doing it. Look at the work they put in on DE, and I still get the feeling that financially that wasn't even a fraction of the money Space Wolves brought in, who got what, like 2 new plastic kits?

 Silverthorne wrote:
Don't agree at all.
As much as I hate it, GW will probably stop releasing new space marines every 10 minutes when they stop being able to cash in so easily doing it. Look at the work they put in on DE, and I still get the feeling that financially that wasn't even a fraction of the money Space Wolves brought in, who got what, like 2 new plastic kits?

Indeed, two kits, with two more released a couple years laterish. Plus metal characters, were a few of those. GW will always be able to rake in cash from Marines though, from the sci-fi prospective they're a great entry point.

While I really want a new Eldar book I expect Craftworld specific rules just as we go Chaos Legion rules, or more specifically I'm not expecting them. Think I'll at least be happy to be able to play my Eldar like I could in 5th as 6th just seemed to kill some of the fun for them. Toss in the more gear centricness of CSM/DA and some better pricing/rules and I guess I would be happy. Of course more would be nice.

yeah,
Dark/Craftworld Combined Codex!

Panic...

 Panic wrote:
yeah,
Dark/Craftworld Combined Codex!

Panic...

Huh?

Why? DE just got their codex.

Unless... I'm missing something here?

Wait, what? It would make more sense to delete Guardians completely from the new codex, when GW could simply up the range of their Catapults back to 24" like 2nd edition and then keep them as part of the army list? That's insanity.

In other things:

Other than Guardian squads having integrated heavy weapon platforms, the 2nd edition Eldar codex was by far the best Eldar Codex, for options, balanced points costs, fluff etc.

The 4th edition codex is second best, if only because the unbalanced points values for some of the units in the 3rd ed/Craftworld books, along with the huge nerf to Shuriken Catapult/Cannon ranges (which obviously still exists), bent everything far too much against the Eldar player.

The 4th ed isn't not the best, but when some of the units got their points costs nearly halved from 3rd edition, and players still think they are worthless, it's a pretty telling factor.

If Eldar had been given anywhere near the material Space Marines have gotten over the years, they wouldn't even need a new book.

Hoping there arent any huge structure changes in the book.
Just seems i go with a weird or unusual army list an it them becomes illegal within a year lol.

Currently like playing my wraithguard list, more so with all the draigo wing armies still about.

Just swap guardians for corsairs, use the same models change the rules. Guardians are clunky, rules wise, they don't really make sense within the larger background either. It would be like it the primary troop choice for Imperial Guard was a mob of civilians with improvised weapons. Do they see action? Sure, probably a fair bit-- but there isn't a need to represent that in the game. Meanwhile corsairs are the primary actual combatant of Eldar if you go off the background-- especially in terms of which eldar you are most likely to be in a scuffle with. But they aren't represented at all- whereas guardians, who shouldn't really be deployed outside of major, existential crises, are. It's an easy fix, just change the rules to make them corsairs, they can use the same models, but take different upgrades and have 'storm' and 'defender' in the same squad.

Corsairs aren't really a Craftworld combatant. Sure, Craftworlders make use of them just as they make use of Dark Eldar and Exodites. On the actual field, though, when marshalled by Autarchs and guided by seer councils, the outcasts play a marginal role.

However, large quantities of Guardians doesn't make sense in most of the fluff, least of all the most recent. Guardians seem to be used extensively in large scale conflicts (we're talking game scales somewhere when you start thinking "maybe we should play Epic instead").
However, there are still a couple of Craftworlds and that one larger Craftworld that use them quite a bit due to being in a pressed situation...

Panic: GW is in the process of fleshing out the fluff of the various Eldar factions and the technology and society of the lesser factions are moving away from the Craftworlders. There is no indication what so ever that GW will merge them now. However, the part about more rules regarding alliance between the two does go against the credibility of the rumour since GW already has a pretty good foundation (at least in their eyes) for alliances - however, I could see that Incubi would lower the alliance quality be an actual rule.

IMHO, the simplest way to make Guardian's more viable and fluff accurate is to increase the range on their weapons (e.g. 18") and emphasise their support role. So don't allow 20-man squads (so they don't simply get used as meatshields), and promote them alongside heavy (brightlance etc.) and support (d-cannon etc.) weapons; additionally, shield emplacements, like those from DoW could help here.

I think simply cheapening them with their weak armour and weapons would simply put them into a meatshield role.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Wait, what? It would make more sense to delete Guardians completely from the new codex, when GW could simply up the range of their Catapults back to 24" like 2nd edition and then keep them as part of the army list? That's insanity.

In other things:

Other than Guardian squads having integrated heavy weapon platforms, the 2nd edition Eldar codex was by far the best Eldar Codex, for options, balanced points costs, fluff etc.

The 2nd edition Codex: Eldar was the most broken codex ever released by GW for any edition of the game, and guardians with shuricats in that book were probably the single best basic troop type ever. It certainly was the book that really established Eldar, but balance is not a word that should ever be used in connection with that book.

The 2nd edition Codex: Eldar was the most broken codex ever released by GW for any edition of the game

I highly doubt that.

As a curiosity, have there been any recent codecies with a 0-1 requirement for any non-special-character units? Perhaps bringing that back with a flavorfully "rare" unit would satisfy the desire for a 'cheap' unit and a flavorfully uncommon unit.

Then again, I want to call it now. GW is going to release a new 'updated' Guardians box, they'll be super cheap, shuriken catapults will be worthless, but they'll get superamazing lasblasters. All the Eldar players that have Guardians with catapults? Worthless. Buy more Guardian boxed sets so you can use lasblasters.

Unlikely, since the old OLD guardians already came with lasguns/blasters..

GW wouldn't want us to use them again!

Yeah, but who actually has those anymore?

Then again, they brought back Stranglewebs and Splinter Guns for the Tyranids.

Of course they brought them back so fething useless no-one would ever take them, so why worry..

Funnily enough, I currently use old dark Eldar warriors as my couple of Guardian squads in my pirate-themed force, using their splinter rifles to represent "Guardians with Lasguns" even though they use Catapult stats, as an ode to 2nd edition (most of the other models in my army are 2nd edition sculpts).

 gorgon wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Wait, what? It would make more sense to delete Guardians completely from the new codex, when GW could simply up the range of their Catapults back to 24" like 2nd edition and then keep them as part of the army list? That's insanity.

In other things:

Other than Guardian squads having integrated heavy weapon platforms, the 2nd edition Eldar codex was by far the best Eldar Codex, for options, balanced points costs, fluff etc.

The 2nd edition Codex: Eldar was the most broken codex ever released by GW for any edition of the game, and guardians with shuricats in that book were probably the single best basic troop type ever. It certainly was the book that really established Eldar, but balance is not a word that should ever be used in connection with that book.

Erm... no. While I don't think the 2nd ed Codex: Eldar was balanced by any stretch of the imagination (see Warp Spiders), the most broken codex in GW history is easily the 2nd Edition Space Wolf codex.

For some reason Termies with CML and Ass-cannons at the same time keep surfacing in my memory...

I played Eldar in 2nd, Dark Reapers, D cannons, Wraithguard and Warpspiders with Eldrad. It was a very potent army indeed.

But then I remember fighting RandyMcStab's Ultramarines with Marneus Calgar on Combat Drugs and a muthaluvin Terminator Librarian with a displacer field, aegis and some other stuff that just would not die... at all.


And yes, space wolves were even more daft, famously one major tournament was won by an all cyclone terminator army that pie plated it's opposition off the table in turn 1.

I've did that to an Ork army once.

Turn 1 - Cyclone fires. Half of the Ork army vanishes.
Turn 2 - What turn two?

I just hope... HOPE that the new 'dex would allow for an all Harliquin Army.

Bring back the Solitaire.

Rogue Trader was even worse... Battle Cannon mounted on an Ork bike. Or firing ALL missiles from a CML at once... you ended up with a car tyre sized template.

Some of the Chaos lords I went up against with Eldar were not friendly either - although knocking displacer field wearing models off the board was hilarious.

For a new codex, I would like to see my Shining Spears either get better for their cost (or) cheaper, and for my Guardians to get a longer range on their catapults. That's it, really.

Hell, an improvement on all Catapult ranges would be a pretty big benefit that would affect foot Guardians, Guardian Jetbikes, Shining Spears, Vypers, and all Eldar tanks, so I would just take that and be a damn happy player!

Just upping normal Catapults to 18" and Avenger catapults to 24" would be a simple and very effective change. Though I woldn;t mind a higher range on my Shuriken Cannons, though. Even 36" would be damn cool.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
For a new codex, I would like to see my Shining Spears either get better for their cost (or) cheaper, and for my Guardians to get a longer range on their catapults. That's it, really.

Hell, an improvement on all Catapult ranges would be a pretty big benefit that would affect foot Guardians, Guardian Jetbikes, Shining Spears, Vypers, and all Eldar tanks, so I would just take that and be a damn happy player!

Just upping normal Catapults to 18" and Avenger catapults to 24" would be a simple and very effective change. Though I woldn;t mind a higher range on my Shuriken Cannons, though. Even 36" would be damn cool.

Personally, I think shuricats should be 24" S4 AP5 Rapid Fire with Rending. Give Dire Avengers Relentless.

 Morachi wrote:
Rogue Trader was even worse... Battle Cannon mounted on an Ork bike. Or firing ALL missiles from a CML at once... you ended up with a car tyre sized template.

As far as I recall, both of those were still present in second edition - the former as an Ork Special character who knocked himself backwards when he fired the cannon (Wazdakka).

So, who really wants the Solitaire to return with blind grenades and the rest of her old abilities?

The Eldar codex may not have been the most OP of its time but, imo, the Solitaire was the most OP model of its day.


Personally, I'm really hoping for something like the Craftworld Eldar book but a little better balanced.

On-Topic-
Any idea of when we would be seeong the new Eldar?

We talking about August or closer to November-December?

 gorgon wrote:
The 2nd edition Codex: Eldar was the most broken codex ever released by GW for any edition of the game, and guardians with shuricats in that book were probably the single best basic troop type ever. It certainly was the book that really established Eldar, but balance is not a word that should ever be used in connection with that book.

How is that even possible? At the time of release it was the only Codex, so how could it be unbalanced when there was nothing for it to be balanced with. Sure, there were "army lists" but most of them were originally written for Rogue Trader and only slightly modified for the army lists that came with 2nd Ed. Or are you talking about internal balance? Because again, compared to the army lists that were around at the time, it was waaaaaay more balanced.

 Shandara wrote:
Unlikely, since the old OLD guardians already came with lasguns/blasters..

GW wouldn't want us to use them again!

 Absolutionis wrote:
Yeah, but who actually has those anymore?

Then again, they brought back Stranglewebs and Splinter Guns for the Tyranids.

I do!

 Captain Avatar wrote:
So, who really wants the Solitaire to return with blind grenades and the rest of her old abilities?

The Eldar codex may not have been the most OP of its time but, imo, the Solitaire was the most OP model of its day.

Nuh-uh. Whilst the Solitaire was insane, it was the equipment in that version that was most OOP, not the actual characters.

Anyway, it would be easy to bring back the Solitaire and have them perfectly fluffy. I'd start with Lelith Hesperax's stats and start from there. Very easy to make a fluffy, awesome, but non-overpowered character if you consider Lelith reasonable.

so hoping this turns out to be true!

The eldar need a revamp to be 6th edition competitive and this looks like it could be it!

Plastic wraithguard? Hmm, looks like it could be time to get myself a unit...

 whembly wrote:

 Panic wrote:
yeah,
Dark/Craftworld Combined Codex!

Panic...

Huh?

Why? DE just got their codex.

Unless... I'm missing something here?

Some would argue that the Dark Eldar codex is unplayable now, at least not the way it was intended to when it was released November 2010.

Looking foward to plastic Wraithguard, those guys are way too expensive right now

 Fifty wrote:
How is that even possible? At the time of release it was the only Codex, so how could it be unbalanced when there was nothing for it to be balanced with.

Second. The Wolves came first.

And if we're fair, not much was 'balanced' in 2nd Ed. Be it WS7 Genestealers or Heavy-Flamer Template Warp Spiders, so many things can ruin the enemy side with very little effort.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Fifty wrote:
How is that even possible? At the time of release it was the only Codex, so how could it be unbalanced when there was nothing for it to be balanced with.

Second. The Wolves came first.

And if we're fair, not much was 'balanced' in 2nd Ed. Be it WS7 Genestealers or Heavy-Flamer Template Warp Spiders, so many things can ruin the enemy side with very little effort.

As a veteran of 2nd edition, H.B.M.C. speaks truth here.

The Space Wolves codex was first, then it was Eldar.

However, lest we forget the crazy codex of the Orks at that time; I;ve seen more Ork players in 2nd edition wipe themselves out (or at least heavily contribute) due to the crazy random nature of their rules. Their Pulsa Rockets were wicked, and if the player rolled fortunately, armies sat on their can for turns while the Orks mopped up. And yes, Space Wolf terminators were the OP unit of that time until later clarifications were rendered late in the edition.

However, with a potential 6th edition Eldar 'dex on the rise, I look forward to it as currently, their points-scale is way out of wack with current units. Wouldn't mind seeing the Warlocks actually become combat-casters like they should have been instead of a buff for a unit it was attached to. Not sure what Swooping Hawks could be used for other than air-intercept abilities and strafing/bombing?

Anyway, hopeful to see more on them and hope they do them correctly (big hope I know)....

Huh, second, so it is. I would still say my point is pretty valid. Funny how 18 years can play tricks with your memory though.

 Fifty wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
The 2nd edition Codex: Eldar was the most broken codex ever released by GW for any edition of the game, and guardians with shuricats in that book were probably the single best basic troop type ever. It certainly was the book that really established Eldar, but balance is not a word that should ever be used in connection with that book.

How is that even possible? At the time of release it was the only Codex, so how could it be unbalanced when there was nothing for it to be balanced with. Sure, there were "army lists" but most of them were originally written for Rogue Trader and only slightly modified for the army lists that came with 2nd Ed. Or are you talking about internal balance? Because again, compared to the army lists that were around at the time, it was waaaaaay more balanced.

I played competitively during 2nd ed. At the 1997 U.S. GT, 5 of the top 10 in both battle points and overall scoring were Eldar, including the overall winner and top BP scorer. That year the U.S. champ played the Canadian champ -- who played Eldar -- at Games Day. I hazard to guess it'd have been more like 7 or 8 out of 10 if you let today's powergamers at that codex. Heck, the next year the returning champ brought an all Harlequin force and won again, albeit not as easily.

There wasn't much in that codex that wasn't good, and IIRC Exarches, Warp Spiders, jetbikes and shuricat Guardians were probably the brightest stars. Shuricat Guardians in small squad sizes under 100 pts (believe it was 96 pts for 6 @ 16 pts each) were just silly, as units under 100 pts gave up no VPs unless killed to the last man in that scoring system, which was huge. Meanwhile they each pumped out a sustained fire die at S4 and a hefty -2 save mod. Mowed down SM like a John Deere attacking bluegrass.

Pulsa Rokkit Orks could probably compete, but note that you're also talking about one extreme build versus the variety of things the Eldar could throw at you. Umpteen assault cannon Wolf Guard SWs also get an honorable mention here, but again, that's one build. Also note that those were the first 3 codices released. Balance got better in the later codices.

I can understand why an Eldar player would wax nostalgic over that codex, because it came off like a labor of love by Rick P. and company. And certainly it captured the idea of Eldar having the best tech, because they certainly did even if it didn't make any sense in terms of game balance, LOL. But it was clearly far out of balance with the stuff that came later like IG, UM, Angels of Death, Tyranids, etc.

Edit: Getting this back on topic, IMO they should look to the 2nd ed codex for the right flavor and feel moreso than the 3rd ed. Craftworld subdex. I would have liked to see what Phil Kelly would have come up with had he not been writing the 4th ed. book in the era of stripped-down army lists as championed by Alessio. The new CSM book is solid if unspectacular, but I *really* like the DA and Daemon books, so I'm anxious to see how Eldar turn out.

I admit: TL;DR

IMHO, after reading the first post.. Eldar need a simplified codex, not a codex with more do-dads. Adding more units will result in a combination of the following effects:

1a. Multiple units competing in the same niche. Regardless of how many specialist units the writers add, there will be one or two units that excell in their chosen niche and the rest will be consigned to the shelf-space of doom. The eldar ALREADY have this problem. Adding more units is a case of exacerbating what is already very unwieldy.

1b. Given GW's track record... Units that are receiving new kits generally have product-moving rules. This means that the majority of the legacy specialists can keep each other company of the shelf-space of doom so they don't get lonely.

2. Units equipped with core-rule breaking abilities in a ham-fisted attempt to make units unique. This causes game balance problems across codexes.

3. The more units you add, the poorer the codex transitions across game editions, as units with fiddly rules are most affected by core game mechanic revamps. Granted, we have just started in a new edition, so the Eldar may get their time in the sun - however, it is equally likely that they'll get eclipsed by the following codecies and suffer another long night.

I started playing 40k with Eldar years ago, so I am looking forward to this new codex.

 Alkasyn wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Panic wrote:
yeah,
Dark/Craftworld Combined Codex!

Panic...

Huh?

Why? DE just got their codex.

Unless... I'm missing something here?

Some would argue that the Dark Eldar codex is unplayable now, at least not the way it was intended to when it was released November 2010.

REALLY?

I'm curbstomping with my list now. Even when the deamon release... DE ain't 'fraid of Daemons.

I think the key that many DE players are missing in 6th is that now you can PREMEASURE! That's an epically awesome "function". You just need to know the possible range of your enemy (stay away from the high volume of shots) and position your army in range.

EDIT: Solitarie ought to come back... with Mephiston -ish rules. But I wanna take a whole army of them NOW!

 keezus wrote:
I admit: TL;DR

IMHO, after reading the first post.. Eldar need a simplified codex, not a codex with more do-dads. Adding more units will result in a combination of the following effects:

1a. Multiple units competing in the same niche. Regardless of how many specialist units the writers add, there will be one or two units that excell in their chosen niche and the rest will be consigned to the shelf-space of doom. The eldar ALREADY have this problem. Adding more units is a case of exacerbating what is already very unwieldy.

1b. Given GW's track record... Units that are receiving new kits generally have product-moving rules. This means that the majority of the legacy specialists can keep each other company of the shelf-space of doom so they don't get lonely.

2. Units equipped with core-rule breaking abilities in a ham-fisted attempt to make units unique. This causes game balance problems across codexes.

3. The more units you add, the poorer the codex transitions across game editions, as units with fiddly rules are most affected by core game mechanic revamps. Granted, we have just started in a new edition, so the Eldar may get their time in the sun - however, it is equally likely that they'll get eclipsed by the following codecies and suffer another long night.

I agree. Only add material to units that already exist, rather than more units. Make the Eldar more fun to play.

One thing I think would be interesting, even if it's just to look neat? Allow Dark Reapers to take Shuriken Cannons across their whole squad. It wouldn't be terribly effective versus reaper launchers, but would look cool.

 keezus wrote:

1b. Given GW's track record... Units that are receiving new kits generally have product-moving rules. This means that the majority of the legacy specialists can keep each other company of the shelf-space of doom so they don't get lonely.
.

I'd like to introduce you to my friends Mutilator and Warp Talon...

If we're talking about giving Shuriken Cannons out, then we really need the option for a DA exarch to take one. With the recent faq ruling about allocating wounds and range, atm the Boys in Blue can only kill out to 18"; allowing an attached exarch to take a Shurikan would be both fluffy and increase their effectiveness.

They can borrow them from the Dark Reapers. Not like anyone there is using them...

 AegisGrimm wrote:

 keezus wrote:
I admit: TL;DR

IMHO, after reading the first post.. Eldar need a simplified codex, not a codex with more do-dads. Adding more units will result in a combination of the following effects:

1a. Multiple units competing in the same niche. Regardless of how many specialist units the writers add, there will be one or two units that excell in their chosen niche and the rest will be consigned to the shelf-space of doom. The eldar ALREADY have this problem. Adding more units is a case of exacerbating what is already very unwieldy.

1b. Given GW's track record... Units that are receiving new kits generally have product-moving rules. This means that the majority of the legacy specialists can keep each other company of the shelf-space of doom so they don't get lonely.

2. Units equipped with core-rule breaking abilities in a ham-fisted attempt to make units unique. This causes game balance problems across codexes.

3. The more units you add, the poorer the codex transitions across game editions, as units with fiddly rules are most affected by core game mechanic revamps. Granted, we have just started in a new edition, so the Eldar may get their time in the sun - however, it is equally likely that they'll get eclipsed by the following codecies and suffer another long night.

I agree. Only add material to units that already exist, rather than more units. Make the Eldar more fun to play.

One thing I think would be interesting, even if it's just to look neat? Allow Dark Reapers to take Shuriken Cannons across their whole squad. It wouldn't be terribly effective versus reaper launchers, but would look cool.

Agreed.

Though I'd like to see the Shrieker Ammunition redesigned to make it's lethality something similar to the Dark Eldar Stinger of old. I like the thought of the Dire Avenger Exarch with the cannon though as it fits somewhat with their aspect a bit.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 keezus wrote:

1b. Given GW's track record... Units that are receiving new kits generally have product-moving rules. This means that the majority of the legacy specialists can keep each other company of the shelf-space of doom so they don't get lonely.
.

I'd like to introduce you to my friends Mutilator and Warp Talon...

Burning Chariot of Tzeentch would also like a word.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 keezus wrote:

1b. Given GW's track record... Units that are receiving new kits generally have product-moving rules. This means that the majority of the legacy specialists can keep each other company of the shelf-space of doom so they don't get lonely.
.

I'd like to introduce you to my friends Mutilator and Warp Talon...

Burning Chariot of Tzeentch would also like a word.

As would the Nephilim, Dark Talon and LS Vengeance...

Pyrovore.

OT: Eldar were not the top of the tech tree in second edition. Space Marines were.

And the guys looking at Shurikien Catapults with rose tinted glasses are forgetting that Jams meant losing the next TWO turns of shooting.

I hope CWE get a good, balanced code. I have been playing since day one of RT and to me they are the quintessential 40k army.

 Souleater wrote:
Pyrovore.

OT: Eldar were not the top of the tech tree in second edition. Space Marines were.

And the guys looking at Shurikien Catapults with rose tinted glasses are forgetting that Jams meant losing the next TWO turns of shooting.

I hope CWE get a good, balanced code. I have been playing since day one of RT and to me they are the quintessential 40k army.

Jams were largely irrelevant since you could field about two Guardians for every tactical marine. It was still roughly twice the firepower in terms of volume, and the shuricat had a glorious -2 save mod. There is no argument for tactical SMs with bolters over Guardians with shuricats -- the shuricat Guardians were that dominant, and tacticals that bad. If you're going to talk about Terminators and assault cannons, different thing.

Odd. As somebody playing Nids against Eldar back then I hardly found one in six of their guns falling silent for two turns to be 'irrelevant'.

True, their firepower was higher but as you say a large part of that was due to a higher number of very squishy bodies. The actual rate of fire averaged out at 1.5 shots per turn (not counting the second missed turn of shooting)

Perhaps my memory is tricking me but didn't SM get to fire twice to full range if they didn't move back then? I confess I might be confusing that with another edition, possibly RT.

I used to play regularly against eldar in 2nd edition using orks at the time and they were pretty brutal (the player was very good though).

I still have a copy of that codex and some things in it I would love to see back in some shape or form in the next one (I play eldar now).

One of those would be warp spiders using the flame template. Perhaps strength 4, ap -, template with rending and/or instant death?

That would be a unit I would pay 22pts per model for!

Can't see GW doing it though. Maybe add the rending to the current rules but not putting the template back in.

rohansoldier wrote:
I used to play regularly against eldar in 2nd edition using orks at the time and they were pretty brutal (the player was very good though).

I still have a copy of that codex and some things in it I would love to see back in some shape or form in the next one (I play eldar now).

One of those would be warp spiders using the flame template. Perhaps strength 4, ap -, template with rending and/or instant death?

That would be a unit I would pay 22pts per model for!

Can't see GW doing it though. Maybe add the rending to the current rules but not putting the template back in.

I -might- play them if they had rending...

But probably not.

I love the current Warp Spiders. I could see them getting Rending if their price stayed the same, otherwise I think they just need a slight points drop and they're fine.

 Souleater wrote:
Odd. As somebody playing Nids against Eldar back then I hardly found one in six of their guns falling silent for two turns to be 'irrelevant'.

True, their firepower was higher but as you say a large part of that was due to a higher number of very squishy bodies. The actual rate of fire averaged out at 1.5 shots per turn (not counting the second missed turn of shooting)

Perhaps my memory is tricking me but didn't SM get to fire twice to full range if they didn't move back then? I confess I might be confusing that with another edition, possibly RT.

That is correct. Also, let us not forget about range modifiers for short and long range spending on the weapons used.

A tactic of mine was using a Veteran Tactical squad, and once in short-range, draw pistols for the +2 mod coupled with the BS of 5, made for some blistering shooting.

Storm Bolters, I believe, had one or two sustained fire dice and the Assault Cannon had 3. Dreadnought Missile launchers had Salvo-fire which allowed for 1 sustained fire die (thier multi-meltas could be used as heavy flamers as a firing-mode option). So marines, even costing about 30 points per model back then, could match firepower with anyone. Eldar Guardians at that time were probably the only squad in that codex that could actually number 10 models in the squad. The aspects only reached to around 7, so they were very different. The eldar had higher movement rates for the most part despite their crazy wargear and psychic powers.

Just a though, but shouldn't the first post be updated with the newest rumours on page 13? I know the title has, but it seems to have been overlooked in the actual post.

Am I the only person deeply saddened by not a single mention of an transport able to effectively transport assault troops? They'd have to basically break the game mechanics to make an Eldar assault squad viable in 6th Edition(well, except for Harlies).

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Am I the only person deeply saddened by not a single mention of an transport able to effectively transport assault troops? They'd have to basically break the game mechanics to make an Eldar assault squad viable in 6th Edition(well, except for Harlies).

Same here. Another option could be to buff existing CC units in a way that they become viable without a transport, like the harlies are now. I'm thinking of a buff for Shining Spears.

I have a two-part solution to help transport Harlies and Banshees...

Add Venoms to the Eldar book.

Make it so a squadron of two Venoms can transport 10 Eldar...

 Nivoglibina wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Am I the only person deeply saddened by not a single mention of an transport able to effectively transport assault troops? They'd have to basically break the game mechanics to make an Eldar assault squad viable in 6th Edition(well, except for Harlies).

Same here. Another option could be to buff existing CC units in a way that they become viable without a transport, like the harlies are now. I'm thinking of a buff for Shining Spears.

Even easier they can just change Banshee's Acrobatics to allow them to treat all vehicles as assault vehicles. However that doesn't solve the fact that they hit like a wet noodle now . It is more likely that Banshees will stay bleh and a new CC option will be introduced.

Harlees have always been fine on foot. It's unlikely we will get that buffed.

If anything, I want them to buff scorpions, mildly. I don't know how, but as it is, offensively, they're basically weaker, slower assault marines. I really like the look of them on the table, but they are a little underwhelming. I would love to run an army with scorpions & spiders as the main focus.

Hmmm... a rule that the Banshees open the doors and start clambering out as the vehicle is still in motion would certainly be interesting...

Eldar are supposed to be agile right? They should have the ability to assault out of a vehicle.

That would make Banshees, Scorpions, Storm Guardians and Phoenix Lords relevant and worth buying, or like me if you already have them, take them off the shelf and blow off the dust.

If that's all the new codex changed I'd still be ...ok... with it.

Seeing the rumor for guardians going down in price makes me happy, I just hope that somehow they get some better range on their weapons. Having hoards of them for a cheaper price, backing up some of the aspects and a few wraithlords would be nice.

Scorpiodragon wrote:
Seeing the rumor for guardians going down in price makes me happy, I just hope that somehow they get some better range on their weapons. Having hoards of them for a cheaper price, backing up some of the aspects and a few wraithlords would be nice.

That's the opposite of nice! The codex should reflect the fluff, which would involve the smallest role possible for Guardians in order to preserve civilian Eldar lives!

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

Scorpiodragon wrote:
Seeing the rumor for guardians going down in price makes me happy, I just hope that somehow they get some better range on their weapons. Having hoards of them for a cheaper price, backing up some of the aspects and a few wraithlords would be nice.

That's the opposite of nice! The codex should reflect the fluff, which would involve the smallest role possible for Guardians in order to preserve civilian Eldar lives!

This. Lots of this. They should be limited almost to manning Weapons Platforms exclusively, but given more platforms per squad. NOT massed troops to bubblewrap other "more valuable" units. Hopefully the mention of Stormwind (limited Aspect Warrior squads being able to be taken as troops) is accurate to correct this.

I disagree with this, Guardians are used in the front lines because there aren't enough Eldar military around to do all the fighting, they have to use conscripts/militia to share the load. Whilst Guardians aren't supposed to fight they have too.

On the table that means low point troops, it's up to you and your roleplaying to use them carefully or as cannon fodder. There will always be some disconnect between the game and the fluff, otherwise Space Marines would be T6 and IG show up dead.

Obviously Biel Tan and Ulthwe are special cases at either end of the spectrum and I'd like to see the new book should make them both viable but I think Guardians with decent rifles would be a great support unit.

 RandyMcStab wrote:
I disagree with this, Guardians are used in the front lines because there aren't enough Eldar military around to do all the fighting, they have to use conscripts/militia to share the load. Whilst Guardians aren't supposed to fight they have too.

Sure, as a worst case scenario they will throw guardians out there. Not every battle in 40k is a desperate attempt of defense. If it's a planned attack they will use aspect warriors and guardians in the form of support weapons and vehicle pilots. They don't just throw 60 civilians out there to protect their Fire Dragons.

 BlueDagger wrote:

 RandyMcStab wrote:
I disagree with this, Guardians are used in the front lines because there aren't enough Eldar military around to do all the fighting, they have to use conscripts/militia to share the load. Whilst Guardians aren't supposed to fight they have too.

Sure, as a worst case scenario they will throw guardians out there. Not every battle in 40k is a desperate attempt of defense. If it's a planned attack they will use aspect warriors and guardians in the form of support weapons and vehicle pilots. They don't just throw 60 civilians out there to protect their Fire Dragons.

If the Farseer or Autacrh deems it so, then yes they can and will. The nature of the Eldar's motives typically revolve around their Seers and the ability to change the threads of certain timelines. Certain battles call for different tools for the job and this can be one of many in which they may use depending on what they are trying to achieve.

Every Craftworld surely uses them differently depending on the nature of their objectives.

Saim-Hann uses bikers, who are by the way, Guardian troops; though their military structure has them divided into various clans that have their own autonomy and are semi-independent, their vanguard units are almost exclusively guardian bike-troops.
Shining Spears are their elite units and are used in a support or vanguard role.

Biel-Tan is the exact opposite, where aspects are the majority of forces. This is not due to a population issue but rather a doctrine where most of their inhabitants pursue the path of the warrior aspect. Guardians are used as support units for most of this craftworld's operations.

However, with all this being said, basically, Guardian troops' roles will vary from one extreme to the other depending on what governs the craftworld in question.

As stated above, removing Guardians from the fighting forces of the Eldar using a "thematic" perspective would also remove any Jetbikes other than Shining Spears, as normal jetbikes and Vypers are piloted by Guardians.

Wow. A lot of wishlisting in a rumors thread. Interesting.

In reality, all the Eldar book needs are a couple points reductions here and there, specifically to our transports, and then the book is really ok.

I don't think anyone that has really analyzed the 6ed codexes can really expect that Eldar will fundamentally shift with regards to either current structure or rules. We'll likely get some points balancing, some new toys and thats about it.

Oh and Mastery Level 4 Eldrad. Because if they don't I'll just quit 40k completely.

Defenestratus wrote:
Wow. A lot of wishlisting in a rumors thread. Interesting.

In reality, all the Eldar book needs are a couple points reductions here and there, specifically to our transports, and then the book is really ok.

I don't think anyone that has really analyzed the 6ed codexes can really expect that Eldar will fundamentally shift with regards to either current structure or rules. We'll likely get some points balancing, some new toys and thats about it.

Oh and Mastery Level 4 Eldrad. Because if they don't I'll just quit 40k completely.

I think that after the new Daemons book turned them into a horde army, the possibility for huge changes is definitely there. I don't think it's incredibly likely, but definitely possible. I'm really curious how they are going to make the Eldar unique, though. Every other recent army seems to be taking what the Eldar do best and doing it better.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

I think that after the new Daemons book turned them into a horde army, the possibility for huge changes is definitely there. I don't think it's incredibly likely, but definitely possible. I'm really curious how they are going to make the Eldar unique, though. Every other recent army seems to be taking what the Eldar do best and doing it better.

I sincerely hope that they leave Eldar as an elite, specialist army. I will sell them in a heart beat if they become a horde army, just like I did with my Daemons. There are enough horde armies as is, I think.

Regarding wishlisting: yeah, that's what most Eldar threads degenerate to. Think it's a combination of having a fairly established fluff that the rules do not reflect well, rather large player base, and a very old codex.

ThirdUltra wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:

 RandyMcStab wrote:
I disagree with this, Guardians are used in the front lines because there aren't enough Eldar military around to do all the fighting, they have to use conscripts/militia to share the load. Whilst Guardians aren't supposed to fight they have too.

Sure, as a worst case scenario they will throw guardians out there. Not every battle in 40k is a desperate attempt of defense. If it's a planned attack they will use aspect warriors and guardians in the form of support weapons and vehicle pilots. They don't just throw 60 civilians out there to protect their Fire Dragons.

If the Farseer or Autacrh deems it so, then yes they can and will. The nature of the Eldar's motives typically revolve around their Seers and the ability to change the threads of certain timelines. Certain battles call for different tools for the job and this can be one of many in which they may use depending on what they are trying to achieve.

Every Craftworld surely uses them differently depending on the nature of their objectives.

Saim-Hann uses bikers, who are by the way, Guardian troops; though their military structure has them divided into various clans that have their own autonomy and are semi-independent, their vanguard units are almost exclusively guardian bike-troops.
Shining Spears are their elite units and are used in a support or vanguard role.

Biel-Tan is the exact opposite, where aspects are the majority of forces. This is not due to a population issue but rather a doctrine where most of their inhabitants pursue the path of the warrior aspect. Guardians are used as support units for most of this craftworld's operations.

However, with all this being said, basically, Guardian troops' roles will vary from one extreme to the other depending on what governs the craftworld in question.

Recently established Eldar canon by Gav Thorpe has Alaitoc, the ranger-oriented craftworld, use 0 rangers during actual mission and 0 guardians at any point in the mission when conducting both a clean-up mission against orks as well as when capturing a chaos relic from humans. It's only during a desperate defence of the craftworld itself that there's Guardians present.

Saim-Hann don't use Guardians in their standard engagements, they use clansmen. Besides, Saim-Hann are barely craftworlders, just don't tell them I said so.

Biel-Tan goes to extremes. Path of the Warrior is a path the Biel-Tan return to time and again and being the largest craftworld they have a truly impressive amount of shrines. Ulthwé are the ones completely different, being constantly in battle they, and one or two of the smaller craftworlds, are the only ones constantly in a desperate situation where the shrines just can't supply enough soldiers. Guardians as troops only exist because of Ulthwé fluff, I believe (just like Wraiths as troops exist due to Iyanden.)

AegisGrimm wrote:As stated above, removing Guardians from the fighting forces of the Eldar using a "thematic" perspective would also remove any Jetbikes other than Shining Spears, as normal jetbikes and Vypers are piloted by Guardians.

Vypers are more special than being simply guardians. Also, you'd not need to remove them from the force for fluff, only make them less common with an Ulthwé character to move them to Troops.

 Mahtamori wrote:

Recently established Eldar canon by Gav Thorpe has Alaitoc, the ranger-oriented craftworld, use 0 rangers during actual mission and 0 guardians at any point in the mission when conducting both a clean-up mission against orks as well as when capturing a chaos relic from humans. It's only during a desperate defence of the craftworld itself that there's Guardians present.

The mission against the Orks did have rangers present. The character from the novel Path of the Outcast is there with other rangers.

Saim-Hann don't use Guardians in their standard engagements, they use clansmen. Besides, Saim-Hann are barely craftworlders, just don't tell them I said so.

Biel-Tan goes to extremes. Path of the Warrior is a path the Biel-Tan return to time and again and being the largest craftworld they have a truly impressive amount of shrines. Ulthwé are the ones completely different, being constantly in battle they, and one or two of the smaller craftworlds, are the only ones constantly in a desperate situation where the shrines just can't supply enough soldiers. Guardians as troops only exist because of Ulthwé fluff, I believe (just like Wraiths as troops exist due to Iyanden.)

Guardians as troops existed from long ago even before Ulthwe's Black Guardians. They were the mainstay of the old 2nd edition Epic armies, where Aspect Warriors were the specialist infantry squads. At company level combat and above, the Guardians and Guardian manned tanks and jetbikes were the mainstay of Eldar forces. However, a 40K game scale is small enough scale that an all Aspect Warrior force is feasible, portraying a very pinpoint surgical strike by special forces.

The problem is that from 3rd edition onwards, Guardians were nerfed to the point of not having much else to do other than be ablative meat shields for other units or a weapon platform. They need to be restored to having a role of their own, and that needs to have the crippling short range of the shuriken catapult addressed. Normal Guardians are not equipped to be assaulting, so giving them an assault weapon is rather pointless.

The issue with the Eldar Codex is more than just minor bells and whistles tinkering. One problem is the specialist Aspect Warriors often needing babysitting or the benefit of psychic powers to be able to perform their job. That is not synergy. Synergy is getting more than the sum of their parts. In other words, 2+2 = 5. If a unit cannot perform its supposed specialist role reliably unless backed up, that is a disadvantage that should be lowering cost.

The other problem is the whole issue of GW randomly spouting off about how advanced and sophisticated Eldar technology is, only to then give something that works only if the stars and moon align, and then overcosting it as if it would always be useful. Other armies then end up over time, over other Codex releases, either taking similar rules or have rules negating the Eldar rules, so that in effect Eldar technology ends up performing worse. Examples: No assault vehicles. Reason given from several editions ago: they have sealed compartments and internal viewscreens (i.e. the illusion of "advanced tech" ends up yielding a worse result). Another example: Bright Lances. It performs better only in a specific case, and worse in others despite all the hype about it being such an advanced laser weapon. Then Black Templars ended up getting something that negated the Lance rule, meaning the Bright Lance performed worse than a lascannon and at best only equalled.

In the past 3rd edition Gav Thorpe Codex, fusion guns were made worse than melta guns. Thankfully that has been changed back, but it was one more bit of the pattern of making Eldar tech worse while spouting off words like "elegant", "advanced", "sophisticated". Sort of the same goes with the eclipsing of the Eldar in the realm of psychic powers, or the inability of Aspects to do things unless the Exarch is holding their hand (like Scorpions infiltrating). It is almost as if the developers had some kind of aversion to giving them anything actually better than humans, which goes completely against the Eldar background and concept of being an advanced race that makes up with lack of numbers with superior tech and psychics..

 BlueDagger wrote:

 RandyMcStab wrote:
I disagree with this, Guardians are used in the front lines because there aren't enough Eldar military around to do all the fighting, they have to use conscripts/militia to share the load. Whilst Guardians aren't supposed to fight they have too.

Sure, as a worst case scenario they will throw guardians out there. Not every battle in 40k is a desperate attempt of defense. If it's a planned attack they will use aspect warriors and guardians in the form of support weapons and vehicle pilots. They don't just throw 60 civilians out there to protect their Fire Dragons.

Somehow the idea of a civilian manning battle equipment costing a gazzilion eldollars doesn't seem right to me....

Think of them as being like the National Guard.

Civilians with military hardware (though not generally top-of-the-line new shinies) and some training.

A lot of countries have an equivalent i think, where civilians do a brief tour of military service or are reservists.

 Ascalam wrote:
Think of them as being like the National Guard.

Civilians with military hardware (though not generally top-of-the-line new shinies) and some training.

A lot of countries have an equivalent i think, where civilians do a brief tour of military service or are reservists.

Well Greeks are a dying race and we do a year of service in the army and I happened to be driving a tank... Now all I need to do is make my ears longer and find a way to live 1000+ years ....

Couldn't Falcons, Vypers, etc be driven by people on the Path of the Pilot?

I mean, can't we have an aspect that is about driving/flying combat vehicles?

Using Guardians in desperate times I understand. But the rest of the time aren't they going to be more of a hinderance to the Aspect Warriors? Not obeying orders as quickly, probably a little jumpy, etc

I would have thought that a technologically sophisticated race would give their Territorial Army/National Guard long range guns and good body army to keep them safely out the way of the enemy. They would look more like Tau Fire Warriors, I think.

Iracundus wrote:
In the past 3rd edition Gav Thorpe Codex, fusion guns were made worse than melta guns. Thankfully that has been changed back, but it was one more bit of the pattern of making Eldar tech worse while spouting off words like "elegant", "advanced", "sophisticated". Sort of the same goes with the eclipsing of the Eldar in the realm of psychic powers, or the inability of Aspects to do things unless the Exarch is holding their hand (like Scorpions infiltrating). It is almost as if the developers had some kind of aversion to giving them anything actually better than humans, which goes completely against the Eldar background and concept of being an advanced race that makes up with lack of numbers with superior tech and psychics..

I somewhat disagree about the Exarchs, but more because I don't think the Exarch should be an optional upgrade. From the fluff, at least as Gav presented it in Path of the Warrior, it sounds like the Exarch always accompanies his shrine into battle. They should come standard with the squad like a SM Veteran Sergeant. I do agree that the Exarch powers you buy should continue to affect the squad if the Exarch dies, though.

 Souleater wrote:
Couldn't Falcons, Vypers, etc be driven by people on the Path of the Pilot?

I mean, can't we have an aspect that is about driving/flying combat vehicles?

Star Eagles, mentioned in fluff at one point or another and brought up as a possibility in one of the rumor threads over the last few years.

Taken from the 40k release thread: Hastings confirmed a few things, we have already heard:

75hastings69 wrote:Eldar, new flier, characters and a new uber wraith guard thingy.
(...)

Hastings, thanks for your rumours, any chance we will see updated jetbikes for the Eldar release and/or plastic Wraithguard?

Yes.

So are Eldar Flyer, Jetbikes, Wraithguard and Uber Wraithguard Thingy? Or are the Wraithguard and the Uber Wraithguard Thingy the same thing?

Not the same thing, there's a huge wraith guard construct type thing (similar to tau) IIRC it has two builds (shooty & cc), also IIRC the actual wraith guard have some kind of CC build option.

Gotta love it. Every army must have something on a 120mm base now. So for eldar it has to be a giant wraith construct. Wraithlords are T8 now. What's this thing going to be? T10? More likely wraithlords will get nerfed to T6 so the new thingy can have T8 all to itself. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Nah. Perplexingly it'll be a vehicle (with 3 HP), and go against the Riptide/Dreadknight trend. And WL's will go down to T7 because they were really powerful in 3rd Ed and the dev team probably still think that's a thing.

Oooooh. Didn't think about the vehicle angle. I can see it now. Failing wraithsight will cause it to glance itself. Joy.

 Arschbombe wrote:
Gotta love it. Every army must have something on a 120mm base now. So for eldar it has to be a giant wraith construct. Wraithlords are T8 now. What's this thing going to be? T10? More likely wraithlords will get nerfed to T6 so the new thingy can have T8 all to itself. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

I wouldn't expect the Wraithlord to keep it's T8 anyway, as other models that had T8 have gotten it reduced. T7, I could see.

 Sasori wrote:

I wouldn't expect the Wraithlord to keep it's T8 anyway, as other models that had T8 have gotten it reduced. T7, I could see.

Ok. Let's see if I am doing this right.

If Wraithlords go to T7 I will burn all of my Eldar models in big heap!!! I will post a video of the conflagration on you tube and mail the charred remains to Mr. Kirby in protest for ruining my life!!!! Then I will find some small mammals to torture until the rage has passed.

How's that? Is that good? Too ragey? Not ragey enough?

 Arschbombe wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

I wouldn't expect the Wraithlord to keep it's T8 anyway, as other models that had T8 have gotten it reduced. T7, I could see.

Ok. Let's see if I am doing this right.

If Wraithlords go to T7 I will burn all of my Eldar models in big heap!!! I will post a video of the conflagration on you tube and mail the charred remains to Mr. Kirby in protest for ruining my life!!!! Then I will find some small mammals to torture until the rage has passed.

How's that? Is that good? Too ragey? Not ragey enough?

Even if a Drop also consisted of a bump in attack power, and an invulnerable save, which it sorely needs?

I'm sitting on 8 Wraithlords and about 80 Wraithguard... Lucky for me they are now relegated to being part of a Warhost display force. The rules don't matter much anymore - even less given I still have all my 2nd Edition stuff if I want to have a game.

 Morachi wrote:
I'm sitting on 8 Wraithlords and about 80 Wraithguard...

I prefer chairs, but hey man, to each his own I guess?

 Morachi wrote:
I'm sitting on 8 Wraithlords and about 80 Wraithguard... Lucky for me they are now relegated to being part of a Warhost display force. The rules don't matter much anymore - even less given I still have all my 2nd Edition stuff if I want to have a game.

I can beat you on Wraithlords (11) but you beat me by miles on Wraithguard (20)

I do have over 30 Harlequin jetbikes though. I bet there are not many who can top that.

Bring on the Eldar just started up an eldar army so all good
really wish they would give the gaurdins a longer range weapon than 12" pitaful for 8pts each

75hastings69 wrote: there's a huge wraith guard construct type thing (similar to tau)

H.B.M.C. wrote:Nah. Perplexingly it'll be a vehicle (with 3 HP), and go against the Riptide/Dreadknight trend.

"Huge wraithguard thing like the Tau have" doesn't sound like a tank
And GW likes trends, still seaching for a monster option for Bretonnia and a spell chart for dwarfs

 Bolognesus wrote:

 Morachi wrote:
I'm sitting on 8 Wraithlords and about 80 Wraithguard...

I prefer chairs, but hey man, to each his own I guess?

Yeah, with all those pointy bits, it is kinda like having a GW style Pineapple reminder around.

Funny that the Harlequin Jetbikes came up, I had an offer for about that number in canopies, but i'm still waiting to see what comes of the new Eldar Jetbikes before modeling the newer style Harlies on them (if there is a way). I do however have 20 Corsair Jetbikers sitting alongside 72 of the regular kind... actually there are about 140 Jetbikes in the army, so replacing them all with new models is simply out of the question :/

The argument over T8 has confounded me since the wraithlord first was introduced. No one complains about the armor value of dreadnoughts being too high at 12 yet even if something was T10 that would ONLY make it as hard to damage as an AV13/14 vehicle which isn't anything out of the ordinary.

In vehicle terms a wraithlord is easier to wound than a dreadnought since its armor value would only be 11/12. As if wraithlords have been scary in the past 10 years..

Not to mention facing Venerable dreads (AV13) in close combat is just painful for most xenos infantry.

Unless you're talking scarabs or haywire grenades. As a ghost army enthusiast I'd like to see them stay T8 but if they get an option for a better armor save or an invulnerable save I'll take T7 or 6. Mostly I want tjem to be able to carry a support weapon.

I get excited whenever someone bumps this thread. :-(

Alright guys,

I took a look at the Tau Codex yesterday at my FLGS -- the owner was ringing it into his register and i happened to see one that just happened to land open on the counter....

All I have to say is that with the abundance of TAU Markerlight capability taking away -- thats right , completely takes away all cover saves with two markerlight hits, the ELDAR had better change to a series of INVULNERABLE saves if they want to have a chance.

To make the HOLOFIELD a COVER save is JUST STUPID>>>

You know the Holo Field isn't a cover save right?

 pretre wrote:
You know the Holo Field isn't a cover save right?

One would hope that it is +2 cover save in the new codex ( not a rumour, just wıshlıstıng) so a 3+ saved flyıng wave serpents

"Holo-Fields" have nothing to do with cover saves. Holo-Fields are the upgrade that force your opponent to roll twice on vehicle damage and take the lowest.
The Wave Serpent's "Energy Field" has nothing to do with cover saves either.

 Gavin Thorne wrote:
Unless you're talking scarabs or haywire grenades. As a ghost army enthusiast I'd like to see them stay T8 but if they get an option for a better armor save or an invulnerable save I'll take T7 or 6. Mostly I want tjem to be able to carry a support weapon.

Just make 'em immune to poison... That's all.

 pretre wrote:
You know the Holo Field isn't a cover save right?

It is on Harlequins.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 pretre wrote:
You know the Holo Field isn't a cover save right?

It is on Harlequins.

That's Veil of Tears, Shadowseer specific. They have a Holo-suit that gives them the invuln save.

Holo-fields could use a redesign in the 6th edition world, and improved cover saves is one idea. It just means instead of being really bad, they're good unless you're fighting Ignores Cover units.

just give all eldar 4++ so Eldar can just muahahahahahahha till we find out our fortune is gone :(.

 Kirasu wrote:
The argument over T8 has confounded me since the wraithlord first was introduced. No one complains about the armor value of dreadnoughts being too high at 12 yet even if something was T10 that would ONLY make it as hard to damage as an AV13/14 vehicle which isn't anything out of the ordinary.

If you exceed a Wraithlord's toughness with an anti-tank weapon, the Wraithlord doesn't loose weapons or attacks, doesn't stop walking, and doesn't explode. It's not just that it's T8, it's that unlike comparable vehicles, they stay as effective whilst also having a save against many things that hit the Strength to start to hurt it.

So, it's not JUST T8 in a system without Fantasy's new "6's wound everything" chart.

GTKA666 wrote:
... till we find out our fortune is gone :(.

That is going to be the hardest thing to let go, unless it happens to be the Primaris power in the Eldar psy tree. I STILL always try to run at least one Farseer rocking codex powers just for Fortune alone.

sorry folks, that came off kinda nerd rage-ish
i meant to say the holo fields on harlequins..
give them invulnerable saves to represent the shifting nature of holo tech..

I honestly can't imagine Wraithlords are enough of a threat to merit a Toughness-nerf..........

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 pretre wrote:
You know the Holo Field isn't a cover save right?

It is on Harlequins.

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
sorry folks, that came off kinda nerd rage-ish
i meant to say the holo fields on harlequins..
give them invulnerable saves to represent the shifting nature of holo tech..

Eldar Harlequins already have an innate 5+ invulnerable save. It's not a cover save.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I honestly can't imagine Wraithlords are enough of a threat to merit a Toughness-nerf..........

agreed, but this IS GW we're talking about.....and marines must always win

 TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I honestly can't imagine Wraithlords are enough of a threat to merit a Toughness-nerf..........

agreed, but this IS GW we're talking about.....and marines must always win

Yep, now that we know Space Marine are after Eldar, we can safely bet that there will be negating effects like the Bright Lance / Machine Spirit rubbish happen all over again. Or Smurfs get their own Jetbikes with Eldar-esque movement... or perhaps a bunch of crazy Psychic powers?

Call me Jaded, but I blame history.

 Morachi wrote:

 TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I honestly can't imagine Wraithlords are enough of a threat to merit a Toughness-nerf..........

agreed, but this IS GW we're talking about.....and marines must always win

Yep, now that we know Space Marine are after Eldar, we can safely bet that there will be negating effects like the Bright Lance / Machine Spirit rubbish happen all over again. Or Smurfs get their own Jetbikes with Eldar-esque movement... or perhaps a bunch of crazy Psychic powers?

Call me Jaded, but I blame history.

same here, look what they did to the necrons... warriors at a 4+ save now? ridiculous

Isnt the veil of shadows a cover save?

maybe its been a while since ive dusted off my codex..

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
Isnt the veil of shadows a cover save?

maybe its been a while since ive dusted off my codex..

Now it gives you shroud and stealth... only if you buy the shadowseer in the harlie squad.

I'm happy to read about the Webway Portal and the changes to the Farseers council.
Reading about the Black Warden makes me wish they'd give the player the option to buy guardians +1 BS or WS.
Then I'd be able to field an Ulthwe Strike Force army again.

 Morachi wrote:


Yep, now that we know Space Marine are after Eldar, we can safely bet that there will be negating effects like the Bright Lance / Machine Spirit rubbish happen all over again. Or Smurfs get their own Jetbikes with Eldar-esque movement... or perhaps a bunch of crazy Psychic powers?

Call me Jaded, but I blame history.

History tends to support your theory. I remember being so excited about the Void Raven when it came out. It was fast, fragile and shooty. The most fantastic thing to add to my twelve year old DE force.

Then SM got the Stormraven. Which was just as fast...but could shoot a weapon...and had more weapons...better weapons....better missiles...better armour...transport capacity and assault ramp....

I get that SM are meant to be good, and I know the SR costs a chunk of points but they just shouldn't be able to match every Xeno race at everything.

OT: I'm really looking forward to the CWE codex, even if I can't afford to start a new army.

 Souleater wrote:

 Morachi wrote:


Yep, now that we know Space Marine are after Eldar, we can safely bet that there will be negating effects like the Bright Lance / Machine Spirit rubbish happen all over again. Or Smurfs get their own Jetbikes with Eldar-esque movement... or perhaps a bunch of crazy Psychic powers?

Call me Jaded, but I blame history.

History tends to support your theory. I remember being so excited about the Void Raven when it came out. It was fast, fragile and shooty. The most fantastic thing to add to my twelve year old DE force.

Then SM got the Stormraven. Which was just as fast...but could shoot a weapon...and had more weapons...better weapons....better missiles...better armour...transport capacity and assault ramp....

I get that SM are meant to be good, and I know the SR costs a chunk of points but they just shouldn't be able to match every Xeno race at everything.

OT: I'm really looking forward to the CWE codex, even if I can't afford to start a new army.

...Your DE flier does still look 1000x cooler, if it's any help?

Ok because Arrathon didn't i will.

 Arrathon wrote:
Unsure if it is in some Eldar spot, But i found this just seconds ago .. Eldar are indeed coming

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/04/breaking-news-eldar-model-pic-plastic.html#more

... not sure whether to be excited or not about this... can't see too clearly. What's the piece in the bottom left? The proportions look nice though, and I'm a sucker for flowy robes blowing in a breeze... Thumbs up?

Heres a bigger picture





The bit down bottom left appears to be part of his robe. It looks like they've repurposed the Yerial scuplt for the farseer.

Looks legit to me. Just had a look at the image and it does indeed have all the odds and sods related to a Farseer (inc/ Ghost Helm). The base looks pretty nifty to with the Eldrich runes on it.

Guess its going to be the first non-metal Farseer in my army... suppose the rest will be singing, "One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't belong..."

Yep, that's definitely a Farseer. Awesome find. Looks monopose, but that's usually for the best for one-of models. Plenty of pieces make plastic models tolerable.

That base looks awful, though. It'll have to go.

 Morachi wrote:
Guess its going to be the first non-metal Farseer in my army... suppose the rest will be singing, "One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't belong..."

Just be happy that they seem to be skipping Finecast for this release so far.

Oh I am elated it isn't Finecast - just having a laugh at the tonne of metal i've got laying around.

 Absolutionis wrote:
Just be happy that they seem to be skipping Finecast for this release so far.

You want to put money on that?

 Breotan wrote:

 Absolutionis wrote:
Just be happy that they seem to be skipping Finecast for this release so far.

You want to put money on that?

If I did, it'd be like a double loss.

Either way, every new Finecast release for recent lines (Tau and Daemons and Spikymarines) has been an HQ choice. At least the Generic Farseer will be plastic.

There's been a single sprue plastic HQ for them, too, hasn't there? I expect this to be more of the same.

 Morachi wrote:
Oh I am elated it isn't Finecast

Ain't that the truth.

More models like this are needed (not 1 out of 3 new releases, but 3 out of 3). They are simply fantastic. The Aspiring Champ model that came out for CSM's is great, and my all-time fav is easily the WFB Nurgle Champ with the big axe. The Sorcerer should've been plastic. The heralds should'a been plastic. The other Tau special char should've been plastic.

More plastic minis!

 Absolutionis wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 Absolutionis wrote:
Just be happy that they seem to be skipping Finecast for this release so far.

You want to put money on that?

If I did, it'd be like a double loss.

Either way, every new Finecast release for recent lines (Tau and Daemons and Spikymarines) has been an HQ choice. At least the Generic Farseer will be plastic.

Mutilators?

Gotta agree with you there H. That Nurgle champ is damn spiffy. I'm also quite partial the Saurus Oldblood. That's another fine looking 1sprue plastic model.

I don't think Mutilators count. I mean... just look at 'em.

I'll be getting the new Farseer, even though I've got Eldrad and 3 others already painted. I do like the older style helmet combined with the newer style. Plastic is always welcome over metal and Finecast as well.

Definitely looking forward to seeing a new codex in June.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Morachi wrote:
Oh I am elated it isn't Finecast

Ain't that the truth.

More models like this are needed (not 1 out of 3 new releases, but 3 out of 3). They are simply fantastic. The Aspiring Champ model that came out for CSM's is great, and my all-time fav is easily the WFB Nurgle Champ with the big axe. The Sorcerer should've been plastic. The heralds should'a been plastic. The other Tau special char should've been plastic.

More plastic minis!

Agreed on the Nurgle Champ. The Savage Orc big boss is also amazing. I have to say I'm decidedly meh about the Farseer. I know there's only a few poses they can use, but I much prefer the aesthetics of the metal ones released in 2006, not to say that photos of it assembled wont chane my mind.

Updated the first post. But we will soon need a new one, as most info is quite old and speculative, the thread being 9 months old.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Morachi wrote:
Oh I am elated it isn't Finecast

Ain't that the truth.

More models like this are needed (not 1 out of 3 new releases, but 3 out of 3). They are simply fantastic. The Aspiring Champ model that came out for CSM's is great, and my all-time fav is easily the WFB Nurgle Champ with the big axe. The Sorcerer should've been plastic. The heralds should'a been plastic. The other Tau special char should've been plastic.

More plastic minis!

If we're going down that route, the commander battlesuit should have been plastic, too. And fully poseable. Makes no sense as a mono-pose Finecast model with no options (you apparently don't get any other weapons with it besides the two special issue guns and a plasma rifle, you need to cannibalize bits from the crisis suits).

That's what I don't like about these plastic blisters: they're all mono-pose models with no options. And the new ones are all priced at $20-25 each, the same as the multi-part plastic SM commander, even though that old-ass commander is a much better kit. One of the main advantages of producing in plastic is that you can offer extra bits and options, different poses, etc. If you're not going to offer that then you would really be better off just casting them in metal or resin (not Finecast) so you can at least get a better-detailed sculpt. GW plastics aren't that bad, but even GW's best plastic kits still aren't as detailed as metal/resin can be.

Anyway, I'm curious to see what the new Eldar flyer looks like. I'm expecting it to be ugly as feth, but I'd like to be surprised.

Looking at the sprue, and how the parts go together, the farseer looks to be a plastic version of this guy:

Typically speaking, most Eldar kits are pretty decent. The only ones I can think of that looked like they were dropped on their face at birth were the "Striking Bunnies" as the 2nd incarnation of Striking Scorpions and the "Rabbitseer" with the spear and twin Ghost Helm fins.

Generally i've been very very happy with the way all of the Eldar range have turned out. My wallet is crapping broken glass right now though, just when the Warhost looked like there wasn't anything else to add... this little gem pops up.

As long as the 6th Ed Codex reflects the awesomeness of the models, I will at least have a shred of faith left in GW's capability to produce something somewhat unique. I've yet to find any other product out there even close to the Eldar miniature range (3rd party addons such as Chapter House not-withstanding).

Farseer looks like a good sculpt, if not exactly groundbreaking. Love the base, just wish they'd lose the Pharoh's beard on the helmet; don't like it on the Avenger exarch, just doesn't seem to fit the Eldar aesthetic, and it's no better here.

So very pleased to see a solid indication that my Eldar are going to get updated soon; waited a long time

thank feck its plastic
sorry to say that gw plastics are better models than there finecast and cant see any reason why finecast exsists

but hope to see more eldar stuff as not long started an eldar army just hope to hell they ditch all the aspect warriors in finecast I know its a dream lol

bit81 wrote:
thank feck its plastic
sorry to say that gw plastics are better models than there finecast and cant see any reason why finecast exsists

but hope to see more eldar stuff as not long started an eldar army just hope to hell they ditch all the aspect warriors in finecast I know its a dream lol

Absolutely, its been a nightmare trying to find a few Shining Spears and Howling Banshees in metal (to flush out a couple of units) as I can only buy Finecast now... and at direct prices only. I pray that I don't have to buy a single Finecast product ever, I may even consider having any model that is, recast in another material just for durability purposes (something that melts/bends in the car for longer than 10 mins isn't "fine" by any standards). At least my metal stuff is just pretty hot to handle

Still keen as beans to see what this giant walker is going to look like.

I am curious though, the moment I saw the sprue for the Farseer, I noted down the numbers and tried to compare them to the rumoured ones in this thread on page 10 or something. Couldn't find a matchup, but then again they may be for different purposes... that and this thread had no mention of a new Farseer model until today.

Cool, looks like a decent model. Can get a good idea of what that will look like complete. Also like the base(a few ideas for that already) . Will probably get one possibly two as looks like it will be easy to model this guy on a jet bike.

Above all , its not finecast !

But good to see some hard evidence that Eldar are finally on the way. Certainly has increased my excitement level. No doubt when I show this to my missues I'll get the eye roll and the tut., followed by the, cool and the slightly interested response.

@Morachi, I managed to bag a few units off ebay that are all metal(brand new in and out of box) one unit has a fine layer primer of white on it. Most of them came in at under or near retail price, but they aren't finecast, so in my eyes worth paying nearly the same.

 Morachi wrote:
As long as the 6th Ed Codex reflects the awesomeness of the models

I wouldn't hold my breath, honestly. They actually made Tau worse than they were before, and I didn't even think that was possible. The new units didn't really add much (even the flyer is overpriced crap), nothing got buffed that really needed it, and what little that worked actually got unnecessarily nerfed. I expect the Eldar codex to be a similar copy/paste job with gakky flyers and nerfs handed out to units that didn't need it.

But hey, at least you might get some good models out of it. Tau didn't even really get much in that department, besides the pathfinders and broadsides (overpriced and now useless in-game since they're now ineffective at what they were designed to do).

Well, to be fair, they can't make it much worse really. Hell if they just dropped the points costs on the decent models that would make life easier.

The issue at the moment is that alot of the models just don't have their niche anymore or are just so outdated they're a points sink - return on investment is almost nill, leading to a pyrrhic victory at best if used. Vypers, Banshees, Scorpions, Guardians, etc just to name a few.

Synergy has always been the way to play Eldar, and by Synergy I don't mean 2+2 = 4, synergy should be 2+2 = 5 (someone here said that and I thought that it was a fantastic analogy).

At the moment some of the best units in the game come directly from IA:11; Specifically the Nightwing, Hornet, Wasp, Warp Hunter and even to an extent the Corsairs... IMO what Guardians should aspire to be!

I guess we have that to fall back on if they snuff the bejesus out of the Eldar rules update.

Is it possible this is the GD model? as it doesn't seem to have many options?

I haven't been following GD news so if this has alreayd been debuncted ignore me

If it is, i'm keen on buying it from someone who doesn't want theirs for collector purposes

 Sgt.Roadkill wrote:
Is it possible this is the GD model? as it doesn't seem to have many options?

I haven't been following GD news so if this has alreayd been debuncted ignore me

If that is true.
Deep hurting. :(

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Morachi wrote:
As long as the 6th Ed Codex reflects the awesomeness of the models

I wouldn't hold my breath, honestly. They actually made Tau worse than they were before, and I didn't even think that was possible. The new units didn't really add much (even the flyer is overpriced crap), nothing got buffed that really needed it, and what little that worked actually got unnecessarily nerfed. I expect the Eldar codex to be a similar copy/paste job with gakky flyers and nerfs handed out to units that didn't need it.

But hey, at least you might get some good models out of it. Tau didn't even really get much in that department, besides the pathfinders and broadsides (overpriced and now useless in-game since they're now ineffective at what they were designed to do).

This is simply not true. Tau have been given a plethora of options now, and are a very strong codex compare to all of the 6th edition books. 2 markerlights to ignore cover? Cheap outflanking sniper scoring units? The riptide? You may not be happy with their release, but it's a stretch to say they got nerfed.

^ Think he's talking about the current meta for 6th, which is marines with guard allies.

Tau might have gotten better against eldar and other armies that lack AV 13/14, but for tournament purposes they're not competitive outside of a select few units. Kroot and broadsides took the biggest hit, two of the most popular units with the old book. Broadsides could reliably nail a tank, dead. Kroot could hold up assaults for a little while and act as general line infantry/ meatshield. Not so much anymore. The main issue is that they aren't really all that good at shooting in the new book when they should be the best army at shooting in the game, bar none.

Anyway, the new eldar farseer looks great, really looking forward to the Eldar finally being released. It's been far too long and they still have a crappy early 4th edition codex which wasn't even all that competitive back in 4th, and downright laughable in 5th/ 6th. This is the single most annoying thing about GW, they have a glacial release schedule when it comes to rules. If you're going to be paying all this money for an army you don't want to wait a decade between codexes and get completely ignored for an entire edition or two while the 7th or 8th marine codex gets spammed in your face.

I played eldar a lot back in 2nd and 3rd edition, when they kicked ass.

Happy memories of mowing down marines with starcannons (or in 2nd edition, shuriken catapults!) and holofield falcons annoying the hell out of everyone.

Now do the numbers at the top of the sprue, does it correspond to the release rumours that were given months ago with the product code?

If so, then both rumours could be legit.

Already checked. There is no Farseer listed in the rumours anyway. Even if there was however, the number patterns dont match up. So given that bit of food for thought, we may see new Eldar product that isnt listed in the rumours, or even less than is currently listed...

I like the plastic Farseer. I plan to buy one even though I don't collect Eldar.

He might come in handy in a 40K skirmish style game like Inquisimunda or as an ally in 40K.

While he doesn't come with a plethora of options, plastic has the saving grace of being easy to convert.

Interestingly, I just noticed that both the sprue and the copyright on the packaging are attributed to 2012. I guess it further supports how much of the line was already finished and just waiting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
New Rumor from Faeit212:

In this first we have a very reliable source chiming in on the Eldar. Please remember that these are still rumors, and in fact any information all the way up until codex in hand is considered to be so.

via an anonymous source from the Faeit 212 inbox
Eldar are indeed coming.

Path system has been revamped. Autarchs take paths that are now fixed in point cost (before they became more expensive the more you took) but do not make their aspect troops.

Instead it allows corresponding aspects to be taken as compulsory troops.

Ergo, the Path of the Striking Scorpions would allow you to take up to two striking scorpions as troops.

If you also took the path of Swooping Hawks you could take up to two Swooping Hawks as troops or one and one.

Guardians are a lot cheaper and have more options for special weapons.

New transport for dire avengers / weapon platform (with no transport capacity).

And lots of new goodies.

If tau are the long range shooting army, eldar are a mix with potential units in short, mid and long range

Long range comes almost exclusively from heavy support, however so you need to create a mix it seems.

Aspects are still hyper focused and saw a very small decrease in points except fire dragons.

Haters will hate, but rumors are rumors.

I don't think i will have a problem with the costs being the same on aspect warriors (since eldar shouldn't be horde army anyway).

What i wish is that, i just dont put more then half of the codex away as "thrash" options and make them actually usefull at what they do.

Following the GW pattern, this plastic Farseer should cost $30. The first Plastic singles were...$13-$15. Then the CSM Champ was $20. Then the Herald of Nurlge was $25. All equally unimpressive for plastic kits. All could be packaged with options directly from the codex as there is such an emphasis on accurate representation on models all over the rule book. Especially when acquiring an extra witchblade is difficult. How about an alternate head option? Side arm options? Nope. Every plastic farseer will look the same out of the blister. This plastic kit is superior to the old metal or finecast farseers how, exactly? It will cost more, so tell me, how is this product better.

 EYEofTERROR wrote:
Following the GW pattern, this plastic Farseer should cost $30. The first Plastic singles were...$13-$15. Then the CSM Champ was $20. Then the Herald of Nurlge was $25. All equally unimpressive for plastic kits. All could be packaged with options directly from the codex as there is such an emphasis on accurate representation on models all over the rule book. Especially when acquiring an extra witchblade is difficult. How about an alternate head option? Side arm options? Nope. Every plastic farseer will look the same out of the blister. This plastic kit is superior to the old metal or finecast farseers how, exactly? It will cost more, so tell me, how is this product better.

Light, durable, easy to convert, easy to assemble?

Fireblade is $20, so I'd expect the same for the Farseer. Most the other prices seem to have stabilized as well. Tanks are $60, large MCs are $85, Fliers are $65-75 (I think the DA flier sales were somewhat poor, so maybe GW decided $65 was a better price point). 10 man Infantry at $35. 3 Pack bikes at $50. Terminator type boxes at $60.

I CANT WAIT!!!

Not for the new plastic Farseer, I cant wait for the Codex.

Ive collected since Rogue Trader and I have an extensive collection. I hung onto my Exodite models from 2nd ed. And My D-cannons have been collecting dust for over a year now.

Unless there are some SWEET plastic new units, I am happy with just getting a GOOD codex.

So stoked for the new release!! Come onnnnnnnn more wraith stuff.

 warpspider89 wrote:
So stoked for the new release!! Come onnnnnnnn more wraith stuff.

There's little doubt that the "big creature" on an oval base is going to be a Wraith thing of some sort. Let's hope it doesn't involve anything that looks like Mechagodzilla, baby carriers, or some chariot that GW shoehorned in.

I'm starting to get excited now.
I've never given up with the Eldar codex but I'm struggling at the moment either in friendly games or comp. Since 6th came out I have less options now than I used to have. I'll be glad just to get something different and something new.

You saw it here first!

Anyone else think it's funny that this leak alone disproves almost all of the rumors we've had so far?

 EYEofTERROR wrote:
This plastic kit is superior to the old metal or finecast farseers how, exactly? It will cost more, so tell me, how is this product better.

Well, not being Finecast will make it superior in and of itself.

I hear you about the lack of options. But the thing is, I'm not sure it's possible to do multi-pose/multi-option Farseers and make them look good. They need swirling robes/capes, and to an extent movement of the fabric implies position o the body. Position of the body should also be implied by the objects in hand- a farseer holding a sword should not stand in the same posture as one holding a spear. So while it could be cool to have something with the versatility of the Empire Wizard kit, I'm not sure Farseers have enough variety to them to warrant that much detail. And so I think a monopost plastic kit, if reasonably priced, would be just fine.

Believe me, I give GW a lot of flack. But honestly if the worst Eldar players have to contend with is an HQ moving from Finecast to plastic, I say they're doing pretty well.

I wonder if the flat plastic bit by his base is to mount him on some kind of platform.

 JOHIRA wrote:

I hear you about the lack of options. But the thing is, I'm not sure it's possible to do multi-pose/multi-option Farseers and make them look good. They need swirling robes/capes, and to an extent movement of the fabric implies position o the body. Position of the body should also be implied by the objects in hand- a farseer holding a sword should not stand in the same posture as one holding a spear.

To be fair, unless they're in a super actiony pose like they're thrusting a spear into someone or slashing with their sword it's not hard to envision them using the weapon as a focus for channeling their powers.

To me that was one of the most disappointing bits of the Grey Knight Terminator kits. There's no real options for the appearance of Grey Knights using their weapons as foci rather than just as weapons.

I wonder if the flat plastic bit by his base is to mount him on some kind of platform.

It looks like it is. If you notice, there's a hole in the base proper which does not have a match on the Farseer himself.

I dislike the current trend by GW of integral textured bases.

I like them, Beisdes as long as the feet are not part of the model, it is fine.

They could have included an option or two in the place of such a base, though. If GW wants to get into the scenic bases business, they ought to make a couple of polystyrene scenic bases sprues or something. Now that would be great, and something they're actually in a uniquely qualified position to pull off. Also, it'd be a great thing to upsell folks on, as well as easily taking a substantial chunk of money which now goes to third parties. Even GW's plastic prices tend to lie a bit under others' resin price range, mostly.

Prediction based on other codex releases so far:

One or two new super units that cost an arm and a leg (ala Heldrake, Riptide)

Popular units will be nerfed, unpopular units will be left alone/buffed.

GW makes money by making new units great, popular units bad....

 Bolognesus wrote:
They could have included an option or two in the place of such a base, though. If GW wants to get into the scenic bases business, they ought to make a couple of polystyrene scenic bases sprues or something. Now that would be great, and something they're actually in a uniquely qualified position to pull off. Also, it'd be a great thing to upsell folks on, as well as easily taking a substantial chunk of money which now goes to third parties. Even GW's plastic prices tend to lie a bit under others' resin price range, mostly.

Just a bit of devil's advocation here:
In most of the cases, there's not a huge problem if you go from the scenic base to a standard base. There's a few where it's a problem(the plastic Saurus immediately springs to mind) but the rest are fairly okay.

I have never been so happy ever. SUPER excited for this figure.

 Dash2021 wrote:
Prediction based on other codex releases so far:

One or two new super units that cost an arm and a leg (ala Heldrake, Riptide)

Popular units will be nerfed, unpopular units will be left alone/buffed.

GW makes money by making new units great, popular units bad....

again i see this I hear this, then i see things like mutilators, warptalons, the new tau flyers, the DA flyer etc etc.... so NO time for a new mantra people...

every dex in 6th SO FAR is balanced against each other... we haven't seen wards first effort yet but then again....

and lets be honest those "popular" units tend to be the only choice in the slots they are in that are worth taking, so a small knock down for them the units that dont get used because they are rubbish get a buff and they are left rather even, making for more choices in those slots... see above examples of units that aren't great, so its not all perfect BUT if GW wanted quicker cash cows, ever codex would have had them rather than just the 2 you mentioned and every new unit would be BS crazy......

lets add to this the Heldrakes terror days are nigh over, as every codex in this edition has ways of dealing with it, or ally in Tau.... a Broadside team will make VERY short work of them....

Neronoxx wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Morachi wrote:
As long as the 6th Ed Codex reflects the awesomeness of the models

I wouldn't hold my breath, honestly. They actually made Tau worse than they were before, and I didn't even think that was possible. The new units didn't really add much (even the flyer is overpriced crap), nothing got buffed that really needed it, and what little that worked actually got unnecessarily nerfed. I expect the Eldar codex to be a similar copy/paste job with gakky flyers and nerfs handed out to units that didn't need it.

But hey, at least you might get some good models out of it. Tau didn't even really get much in that department, besides the pathfinders and broadsides (overpriced and now useless in-game since they're now ineffective at what they were designed to do).

This is simply not true. Tau have been given a plethora of options now, and are a very strong codex compare to all of the 6th edition books. 2 markerlights to ignore cover? Cheap outflanking sniper scoring units? The riptide? You may not be happy with their release, but it's a stretch to say they got nerfed.

No, they aren't a strong codex. They're pretty firmly stuck in "mediocre", like the other 6th edition codices. No, Tau did not get "a plethora of options", if anything options were lost because of the plethora of unnecessary nerfs they got. No, it's not a "stretch" to say they got nerfed because I need only compare it to the last codex, which was already gak to begin with, to tell you they did.

The only way anything you said would have made sense is if, in the bizarre alternate dimension you live in:

S8 is actually better than S10 at destroying heavy armor, what broadsides were designed for and what they've been good at until now.
(It's also wise to take away a shooting army's ability to destroy heavy armor at range, mitigating one of the only strengths they had.)
S3 with no bonus attacks, stealth that only works if the board is covered in forest terrain (most aren't, and good luck at tournaments), and weak guns that require you to sacrifice movement in order to use them at all are awesome for assault troops. It's also totally worth spending 15 points on a leader for said assault troops that basically doesn't provide any buffs or real benefit whatsoever.
18 points for BS3, S3, Ld 6 infantry with one wound and one whole attack at I6 with S5 guns is an amazing value, especially in a slot where they have to compete with flyers.
On that note, expensive flyers with weak armor and S5 weapons is totally strong compared to other flyers.
Stealth suits are still worth using even though they compete for slots with crisis suits that can be outfitted to do what they do, and better.
It's worth paying about 200 points for a giant bullet magnet Gundam with either 12 S6 shots or a single S9 large blast template, both of which have a chance of backfiring and wounding the Gundam.
The hammerhead submunition is totally worth paying 5 points for even though it was barely ever used when it was a regular function of the weapon. The hammerhead is also worthy of the title "gunship" when it has weak S5 weapons and has lost the ability to move as a fast vehicle so that it can actually use them in addition to its main gun.
Sky rays are awesome because you can finally use them as anti-air for a whole six shots and then do absolutely jack feth for the rest of the game.
Expensive characters that don't offer any kind of FOC manipulation and kinda suck at what they're designed to do are actually good.
Not providing buffs to an army's crappy troops so that they stop being crappy, or shifting other crappy units to troops to make up for it (like stealth/crisis suits or even pathfinders via the aforementioned non-existant FOC manipulation) makes them "a strong codex".

Seriously, the only thing, the only thing that got better with this codex, was the removal of 1+ restrictions (which was a given) and the piranha got a slight price drop...but it's still bad, and especially when it competes for slots with the new flyer, which as bad as it is might as well be mandatory because this is the flyers edition and you need them. Oh, and we technically kinda had neat missile drones for about five minutes before GW shut that down (an issue that was worth fixing before the codex even got into people's hands, but as of the time I'm writing this they still haven't addressed the fact that the multi-tracker technically can't be taken because it has no points cost listed on page 95 with the other support systems, despite being listed as a support system earlier on in the book). The Tau codex was a disappointment and anyone who says otherwise is simply deluding themselves. And that's the last I have to say about it.

MajorWesJanson wrote:

 EYEofTERROR wrote:
This plastic kit is superior to the old metal or finecast farseers how, exactly? It will cost more, so tell me, how is this product better.

Light, durable, easy to convert, easy to assemble?

Personally I don't like how weightless plastic infantry feel. Especially when I'm paying $20 for a single model, makes me feel even more like I'm being ripped off.

"Durable"? More durable than fething metal? lol, maybe plastic is preferable for the people who apparently like to throw their models at the wall as hard as they can while waiting for their opponent to finish his turn, or are just the clumsiest fething people alive and somehow always drop them all on the floor every single time they sit down to play, but personally I never had that problem because I handle my models by the base and don't leave models dangling half-off the table edges, so I say metal is just fine if you aren't careless and stupid.

"Ease of conversion" wouldn't be an issue if the kit was varied enough that you could produce several types of models with it. The SM commander costs the same as the other plastic characters and has way more extra bits, options, etc. The plastic farseer, Tau fireblade, etc. all pretty much go together in one way and can only be customized if you pull out a knife and sculpting putty. Personally I don't think that's a really good selling point anyway, I mean imagine if someone tried to sell you on a car with poor stock performance because aftermarket modification is way easier than normal. Even if its true, I would expect the vehicle to be perfectly fine for the price I'm expected to pay for it even if I don't plan on modding it out. These plastic models aren't fine if the one pose they go in looks goofy or you don't like the idea that your overpriced plastic character will look exactly the same as everyone else's with the only differences being minor things like hand/head swaps.

As for "ease of assembly", if you don't know how to glue an infantry-sized metal model together, that at most never comes in more than 4-5 parts on average, then you should probably find another hobby before you hurt yourself. Modeling is hard, bring a helmet.

That said, I wouldn't mind the plastic characters if they at least had more realistic price points. The WHF plastics all started at about $13-15, reasonable for what you get. At $20+ like all the 40k and newer characters I expect a little bit more for my money. I expect them to at least take full advantage of plastic production and make full-on kits loaded with options. In this case it seems like they're cheaping out yet again, because if they offered a kit like the SM commander to every race then they would be taking up far more shelf space than what the blister packs do.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Morachi wrote:
As long as the 6th Ed Codex reflects the awesomeness of the models

I wouldn't hold my breath, honestly. They actually made Tau worse than they were before, and I didn't even think that was possible. The new units didn't really add much (even the flyer is overpriced crap), nothing got buffed that really needed it, and what little that worked actually got unnecessarily nerfed. I expect the Eldar codex to be a similar copy/paste job with gakky flyers and nerfs handed out to units that didn't need it.

But hey, at least you might get some good models out of it. Tau didn't even really get much in that department, besides the pathfinders and broadsides (overpriced and now useless in-game since they're now ineffective at what they were designed to do).

This is simply not true. Tau have been given a plethora of options now, and are a very strong codex compare to all of the 6th edition books. 2 markerlights to ignore cover? Cheap outflanking sniper scoring units? The riptide? You may not be happy with their release, but it's a stretch to say they got nerfed.

No, they aren't a strong codex. They're pretty firmly stuck in "mediocre", like the other 6th edition codices. No, Tau did not get "a plethora of options", if anything options were lost because of the plethora of unnecessary nerfs they got. No, it's not a "stretch" to say they got nerfed because I need only compare it to the last codex, which was already gak to begin with, to tell you they did.

The only way anything you said would have made sense is if, in the bizarre alternate dimension you live in:

S8 is actually better than S10 at destroying heavy armor, what broadsides were designed for and what they've been good at until now.
(It's also wise to take away a shooting army's ability to destroy heavy armor at range, mitigating one of the only strengths they had.)
S3 with no bonus attacks, stealth that only works if the board is covered in forest terrain (most aren't, and good luck at tournaments), and weak guns that require you to sacrifice movement in order to use them at all are awesome for assault troops. It's also totally worth spending 15 points on a leader for said assault troops that basically doesn't provide any buffs or real benefit whatsoever.
18 points for BS3, S3, Ld 6 infantry with one wound and one whole attack at I6 with S5 guns is an amazing value, especially in a slot where they have to compete with flyers.
On that note, expensive flyers with weak armor and S5 weapons is totally strong compared to other flyers.
Stealth suits are still worth using even though they compete for slots with crisis suits that can be outfitted to do what they do, and better.
It's worth paying about 200 points for a giant bullet magnet Gundam with either 12 S6 shots or a single S9 large blast template, both of which have a chance of backfiring and wounding the Gundam.
The hammerhead submunition is totally worth paying 5 points for even though it was barely ever used when it was a regular function of the weapon. The hammerhead is also worthy of the title "gunship" when it has weak S5 weapons and has lost the ability to move as a fast vehicle so that it can actually use them in addition to its main gun.
Sky rays are awesome because you can finally use them as anti-air for a whole six shots and then do absolutely jack feth for the rest of the game.
Expensive characters that don't offer any kind of FOC manipulation and kinda suck at what they're designed to do are actually good.
Not providing buffs to an army's crappy troops so that they stop being crappy, or shifting other crappy units to troops to make up for it (like stealth/crisis suits or even pathfinders via the aforementioned non-existant FOC manipulation) makes them "a strong codex".

Seriously, the only thing, the only thing that got better with this codex, was the removal of 1+ restrictions (which was a given) and the piranha got a slight price drop...but it's still bad, and especially when it competes for slots with the new flyer, which as bad as it is might as well be mandatory because this is the flyers edition and you need them. Oh, and we technically kinda had neat missile drones for about five minutes before GW shut that down (an issue that was worth fixing before the codex even got into people's hands, but as of the time I'm writing this they still haven't addressed the fact that the multi-tracker technically can't be taken because it has no points cost listed on page 95 with the other support systems, despite being listed as a support system earlier on in the book). The Tau codex was a disappointment and anyone who says otherwise is simply deluding themselves. And that's the last I have to say about it.

MajorWesJanson wrote:

 EYEofTERROR wrote:
This plastic kit is superior to the old metal or finecast farseers how, exactly? It will cost more, so tell me, how is this product better.

Light, durable, easy to convert, easy to assemble?

Personally I don't like how weightless plastic infantry feel. Especially when I'm paying $20 for a single model, makes me feel even more like I'm being ripped off.

"Durable"? More durable than fething metal? lol, maybe plastic is preferable for the people who apparently like to throw their models at the wall as hard as they can while waiting for their opponent to finish his turn, or are just the clumsiest fething people alive and somehow always drop them all on the floor every single time they sit down to play, but personally I never had that problem because I handle my models by the base and don't leave models dangling half-off the table edges, so I say metal is just fine if you aren't careless and stupid.

"Ease of conversion" wouldn't be an issue if the kit was varied enough that you could produce several types of models with it. The SM commander costs the same as the other plastic characters and has way more extra bits, options, etc. The plastic farseer, Tau fireblade, etc. all pretty much go together in one way and can only be customized if you pull out a knife and sculpting putty. Personally I don't think that's a really good selling point anyway, I mean imagine if someone tried to sell you on a car with poor stock performance because aftermarket modification is way easier than normal. Even if its true, I would expect the vehicle to be perfectly fine for the price I'm expected to pay for it even if I don't plan on modding it out. These plastic models aren't fine if the one pose they go in looks goofy or you don't like the idea that your overpriced plastic character will look exactly the same as everyone else's with the only differences being minor things like hand/head swaps.

As for "ease of assembly", if you don't know how to glue an infantry-sized metal model together, that at most never comes in more than 4-5 parts on average, then you should probably find another hobby before you hurt yourself. Modeling is hard, bring a helmet.

That said, I wouldn't mind the plastic characters if they at least had more realistic price points. The WHF plastics all started at about $13-15, reasonable for what you get. At $20+ like all the 40k and newer characters I expect a little bit more for my money. I expect them to at least take full advantage of plastic production and make full-on kits loaded with options. In this case it seems like they're cheaping out yet again, because if they offered a kit like the SM commander to every race then they would be taking up far more shelf space than what the blister packs do.

"Careless and stupid"? Wow, talk about over reaction.