Jancoran-- Can you say a little more about using the 4x HF Rets? I am in the process of acquiring the models to try it and I'm curious how you use them, deploy them, accompany them up the board, and which targets you find most/least validating.
PanzerLeader-- Similarly, can you expand on you Inquisitor/Servo Skulls package? I have some Inquisition models from way back, some Stormtroopers and a Chimera, no skulls, but some Assassins... I'd like to start toying with allied Inquisition stuff. What's the leverage you get with the skulls?
War Kitten-- I know a guy selling about 1500 worth of Sisters, base-coated black. Not the most optimized selections for this edition's meta, but a good starting point for an army, maybe $700+ at retail that he'll probably price at half that.
So servo skulls provide you with one big benefit and one little benefit. The little benefit is that they reduce the scatter of any blast weapon targeted within 12" of the skull by a d6, meaning that any blast weapons you have become super accurate when they only scatter d6-BS. The down side is the skull is automatically destroyed whenever an enemy unit moves within 6" of it so you can really only use this rule once, maybe twice, before the skull is gone.
The big benefit is that enemy units cannot infiltrate or scout move within 12" of a skull. The skulls are placed before deployment and go anywhere on the table outside of the enemy's deployment zone. So you can place the skulls 0.1 inches outside your opponents deployment zone and prevent them from infiltrating inside their own deployment zone and within their entire table half of no man's land. This is huge since infiltration is no longer optional. In Dawn of War, you thus automatically force any units with infiltrate into reserve and in Hammer/Anvil and Vanguard they can start on the board but pretty far back. As long as you cover the dead space on your side of the table with models and LOS, you can stop all infiltration.
They also cannot scout within 12". Against scouting armies, I deploy them the same way. This prevents them from coming forward and prevents them from shuffling around inside their zone. Depending on who deploys first, you have a couple of options to extend the table. If they deploy centrally, deploy in the corners with your ranged shooting to put the maximum table space between you and put your short ranged stuff in reserves. They have to move up and you get a mini-alpha strike when your melta comes in. If they deploy with a refused flank, deploy on the opposite flank and force them to fight towards the middle on your terms.
I find skulls give me a ton of options and the entire set up is a steal at 34 points. If I have points left, I give the inquisitor the liber hersius so he can give my CCS scout to help support the dominions or I give him the psyocculum to make their plasma gun BS10 against psykers.
Of course, but in the current rule book, it doesn't say they MAY deploy using infiltrate- it says:
"Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed. If both sides have Infiltrators, the players roll-off and the winner decides who goes first, then alternate deploying these units."
So, did they remove the option to deploy like a regular unit for units that have infiltrate?
AKA, are you REQUIRED to set them up after both sides have deployed (or hold them in reserves, in which case they Outflank), where in older editions you had a choice to infiltrate or not?
Example- is it legal in the current edition for a space marine scout squad to deploy with the rest of the army during deployment (not use Infiltrate), or are they required to set up after both sides have deployed using infiltrate rules (or Outflank later obviously)?
Using Servo Skulls (or other anti-infiltrating items) in the correct setup/deployment could then mean that any units with the infiltrate USR would be REQUIRED to be held in reserve and come in Outflanking, if they aren't allowed to be deployed NOT using the infiltrate USR.
Lets pretend that there are enough skulls to prevent deployment in their own DZ, as well as anywhere else on the table. In this scenario, are all units with at least one model with the Infiltrate USR REQUIRED to be held in reserves, and thus outflank?
There is nothing in the rule book that I see anywhere that allows a unit with Infiltrate to set up without using infiltrate, aka if you can cover the board with skulls or units with LOS/close enough, you can force all of the opponents infiltrating units to be out-flankers.
I'm laughing at Scout Snipers needing to walk in from a board edge and not be able to shoot effectively until Turn 3+
And on a related note, I don't see that Outflank is optional either, so IF you force a unit with infiltrate to be held in reserves, they will be REQUIRED to come in on either the left or right board edge (as there is no longer an option for out-flankers to come on your board edge in the 7th ed book)
Are you sure? It used to be for sure, but this is the wording for outflank-
"When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves."
doesn't say they MAY outflank, it says when they arrive from reserves, they do this.
Lol, I need to stop hijacking this thread with this rules debate.
Btothefnrock wrote: Are you sure? It used to be for sure, but this is the wording for outflank-
"When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves."
doesn't say they MAY outflank, it says when they arrive from reserves, they do this.
Lol, I need to stop hijacking this thread with this rules debate.
So the short answer is:
Infiltrators must deploy last, meaning skulls can block or limit their on table placement options.
Infiltrators may be placed in reserves. Once in reserves, they may outflank or they may enter the table normally from the owning player's edge. This also means that when deploying normally (i.e. without skulls as a consideration) you may place infiltrators into reserves or outflank reserves after seeing your opponent's normal deployment.
there is another place inthe rules where it clearly states you choose and announce to your opponent while deploying them in reserve WHETHER they will outflanking etc...
Rules debates on outflank aside, you can see the massive utility those little skulls give you against a variety of opponents. Board control starts during deployment and those 9 points of skulls give you a great head start.
I tend to play mostly foot Sisters (with some vanilla Marine allies), and my regular opponent tends to play foot Orks.
I'm not a huge fan of sitting in my deployment zone trying to gun down the Orks before they reach and obliterate my squads in melee, because I know it's not fun to spend the game charging across the table and getting whittled down but being mostly unable to do anything. Because of its unexpected killiness in the first game I used them in, my Battle Conclave is primary target number one for any of my mom's shooty units like Lootas, so typically it doesn't last to turn 2 when I field it.
I also play low-points games of 750 to 1000 points to make the matches go faster, on a table 4 feet by 4 feet.
Is there a way to build my army to deal with mobs of Orks up close? Would equipping my Battle Sister Squads with a flamer and heavy flamer be effective enough? How about trying to get Penitent Engines into melee?
If you don't want to crush the Orks from range but still want to be able to deal with them up close, absolutely take Flamers and Heavy Flamers in your squads. You'll get a couple kills in overwatch every time you're charged, not to mention the kills you'll get if you're close enough the turn before they get to charge.
I have the fairly unpopular opinion that penitent engines can be pretty good when used properly, plus I love the model and the fluff behind them. If you want to use them, go for it. Be warned though, because they're open-topped anything with high enough strength to penetrate your armor can explode it. That said, dual Heavy Flamers mean you'll get a bunch of kills before you charge or if they charge you, then those things are just brutal in CC. I love them and basically always include a squad of 3 in my list.
I tend to play mostly foot Sisters (with some vanilla Marine allies), and my regular opponent tends to play foot Orks.
I'm not a huge fan of sitting in my deployment zone trying to gun down the Orks before they reach and obliterate my squads in melee, because I know it's not fun to spend the game charging across the table and getting whittled down but being mostly unable to do anything. Because of its unexpected killiness in the first game I used them in, my Battle Conclave is primary target number one for any of my mom's shooty units like Lootas, so typically it doesn't last to turn 2 when I field it.
I also play low-points games of 750 to 1000 points to make the matches go faster, on a table 4 feet by 4 feet.
Is there a way to build my army to deal with mobs of Orks up close? Would equipping my Battle Sister Squads with a flamer and heavy flamer be effective enough? How about trying to get Penitent Engines into melee?
I tend to play mostly foot Sisters (with some vanilla Marine allies), and my regular opponent tends to play foot Orks.
I'm not a huge fan of sitting in my deployment zone trying to gun down the Orks before they reach and obliterate my squads in melee, because I know it's not fun to spend the game charging across the table and getting whittled down but being mostly unable to do anything. Because of its unexpected killiness in the first game I used them in, my Battle Conclave is primary target number one for any of my mom's shooty units like Lootas, so typically it doesn't last to turn 2 when I field it.
I also play low-points games of 750 to 1000 points to make the matches go faster, on a table 4 feet by 4 feet.
Is there a way to build my army to deal with mobs of Orks up close? Would equipping my Battle Sister Squads with a flamer and heavy flamer be effective enough? How about trying to get Penitent Engines into melee?
I don't tailor my armies, but there are several things I take in SOB lists which help a lot with orks.
Dominions with Melta in Repressors (covers anti-horde and anti-tank)
Repressors with Heavy Flamers (if allying with a Drop Pod force) or Heavy Bolters (in a bastion, if in a pure force)
Battle Sisters with Melta/Flamer or Heavy Flamer in Repressor
BSS Blob with Priests, Jacobus and/or Celestine. Wear down those Orks. Rerollable 3+/5++ is a real pain to orks. Hit and Running out, shooting them again and then staying in on their turn is an even bigger pain.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Example TAC Pure SOB List that would do fine with Orks:
Celestine - 135
Jacobus - 100
4 Priests with Litanies and 2 Power Mauls - 145
19 SOB with HF/F - 243
5 BSS with Melta/F in Repressor - 150
5 Dom with 4 Melta in Repressor with Laud - 190
5 Dom with 4 Melta in Repressor with Laud - 190
5 Dom with 4 Melta in Repressor - 180
Exorcist - 125
Exorcist - 125
6 Rets with 4 HB and Simulacrum - 122
Bastion with 2 Void Shields and Ammo Dump - 150
1850
I tend to play mostly foot Sisters (with some vanilla Marine allies), and my regular opponent tends to play foot Orks.
I'm not a huge fan of sitting in my deployment zone trying to gun down the Orks before they reach and obliterate my squads in melee, because I know it's not fun to spend the game charging across the table and getting whittled down but being mostly unable to do anything. Because of its unexpected killiness in the first game I used them in, my Battle Conclave is primary target number one for any of my mom's shooty units like Lootas, so typically it doesn't last to turn 2 when I field it.
I also play low-points games of 750 to 1000 points to make the matches go faster, on a table 4 feet by 4 feet.
Is there a way to build my army to deal with mobs of Orks up close? Would equipping my Battle Sister Squads with a flamer and heavy flamer be effective enough? How about trying to get Penitent Engines into melee?
I know you said Foot sisters, but Mechanised is the way to go imo. A unit of Battle Sisters with 2x Flamers in a Rhino is nasty to Orks - drive up to them, and Flame out of the hatch. Then let them charge you and eat 2x Flamers in overwatch. They'll glance the Rhino out, but on your next turn (assuming you pass your Pinning test...) you then activate your Act of Faith for Preferred Enemy and unload another 2x flame templates as well as rapid-fire bolt guns. If anything is left alive, they charge you again to eat more flamers in overwatch. Get some Dominion Squads with Meltaguns or Exorcists so you can S8 those T4 mega-nobs and insta kill them, as well as easily deal with any Kans, Dreads, Trukks or Wagons you might see.
Retributors and/or a Command Squad with Heavy Bolters are not too shabby against mobs of Boyz either.
I tend to play mostly foot Sisters (with some vanilla Marine allies), and my regular opponent tends to play foot Orks.
I'm not a huge fan of sitting in my deployment zone trying to gun down the Orks before they reach and obliterate my squads in melee, because I know it's not fun to spend the game charging across the table and getting whittled down but being mostly unable to do anything. Because of its unexpected killiness in the first game I used them in, my Battle Conclave is primary target number one for any of my mom's shooty units like Lootas, so typically it doesn't last to turn 2 when I field it.
I also play low-points games of 750 to 1000 points to make the matches go faster, on a table 4 feet by 4 feet.
Is there a way to build my army to deal with mobs of Orks up close? Would equipping my Battle Sister Squads with a flamer and heavy flamer be effective enough? How about trying to get Penitent Engines into melee?
I know you said Foot sisters, but Mechanised is the way to go imo. A unit of Battle Sisters with 2x Flamers in a Rhino is nasty to Orks - drive up to them, and Flame out of the hatch. Then let them charge you and eat 2x Flamers in overwatch. They'll glance the Rhino out, but on your next turn (assuming you pass your Pinning test...) you then activate your Act of Faith for Preferred Enemy and unload another 2x flame templates as well as rapid-fire bolt guns. If anything is left alive, they charge you again to eat more flamers in overwatch. Get some Dominion Squads with Meltaguns or Exorcists so you can S8 those T4 mega-nobs and insta kill them, as well as easily deal with any Kans, Dreads, Trukks or Wagons you might see.
Retributors and/or a Command Squad with Heavy Bolters are not too shabby against mobs of Boyz either.
Jancoran wrote: To be fair, in that event, they wouldnt be in range of much. After all the Flamers follow the "other stuff" close behind and wait for their chance...
Bike orks should hang out at 18" most of the time. Unless your playing them dumb like me.
well except for then, right. Lol. Though in our last game you hardly had a choice to do otherwise given the mission so that wasn't entirely your fault. It was just playing to the mission.
On the topic of battling Orks, I played a game for a campaign yesterday against them.
The opponent was a experienced hobbyist but a new player.
Spoiler:
We played a thousand points, maelstorm of war.
He fielded something of the following:
Warboss, with the lucky stick and probably some kind of cc weapon he never got to use 2x 10 boys with 4+ armour in a truck with a nob with PK.
8 bikers
6 nob flashgitz
7 lootas
Battlewagon
I played:
Cannoness, 2 Bolt pistols, Book of st. lucius (campaign character)
2x 5 BSS flamer, HF, rhino
2x 5 Dominons, 4 melta, Rhino, one Laud Hailer
5 Retributers, 4 HF, rhino
2 Exorcists, 1 HKM
We played the mission that you start with one objective and you get one more every turn. (up to 6)
I got first turn, He never played sisters and did not expect me to go forward so aggressively. My dominions blew up his Battlewagon, One exorcist and both dominion rhinos shot at the flashgitz kiling 3.
Didn't get my objective but got first blood.
In his turn his bikers got a great roll and shot up one of my exorcists from the side, due to his good rolling and me leaving my flank exposed. He killed one dominion squad with some ork boys, the flashgitz charged the other group but failed to do anything. I managed to do one wound in return but he made Ld check.
In my second turn I managed to kill all his lootas with my retributers and got one objective card (don't remember what it was )
My Dominions lost combat by one and managed to escape the slaughter. (The fled into my cannonesses bubble so next turn they would rally automaticly)
In his turn, he really wanted my retributers dead while also claiming four objectives. (supremacy) In doing so he exposed one of his trucks to my shooting next turn while overcommitting his ork boys and warboss in charging my retributers. He tried a long distance charge but six died due to overwatch. He didn't make his charge.
In my turn I could easily flame both his boy squads to death because all his models were bunched up. (Not spreading them out during consolidation)
His exposed truck was blown up by my dominions.
After that I could systematically kill his units, after six turns one biker survived. In the end it was 22 vs 5 points. (I got 10 points in my last turn)
All in all it was a fun game, not just for me, for him too. I helped him a lot with the rules and he learned a lot about what not to do when facing flamers.
Whats wrong with that? I used to play Fantasy with my mother all the time. Now I live with my girlfriends instead and play 40k with them, because Tyranids and Necrons are cooler than Skaven and Dwarves since AoS happened.
Sorry for the delay... thanks for great comments, Jancoran and PanzerLeader!
I took 2000 points against Ultramarines yesterday and did well. I did try the Heavy Flamer Rets in a Rhino and sent them after his Centurions thinking to force lots of saves, but he had them on all 3 levels of a building which weakened the templates (that may be a house rule-- templates affect only one level of a structure). They should have had a different target... maybe hold them in the rear or in cover as a counter against deep strikers.
He had Calgar, 1 Tac with a Rhino and Cypher, Scout Snipers, Drop Pod Sternguard, Drop Pod Ironclad Dred, GravCents, a Thunderfire Cannon, Legion of the Damned, and a Vindicare.
I had Uriah w/ 20-strong BSS, a 10-strong BSS, 3x Melta Doms in Immos, 2x Exos, the HF Rets in Rhino, 2x 5-strong BSS squads for objective management, Celestine, and 2x Seraphim.
We played the Maelstrom mission with decreasing objectives and I went first. I actually had some terrible rolling and some lazy errors: the Doms failed to Ignore the enhanced cover on the Centurions, giving 3+ cover saves against all the melta; the Seraphim failed to Shred until late in the game and the Rets failed to Rend at all (even with 3 Laud Hailers!); I forgot Uriah's enhanced saves for the big squad. I also failed to deploy the 10 BSS... I had stolen their Rhino to give the HF Rets a ride to the battle, but forgot to actually dismount them out of the case to footslog it... they came on with my turn 3 reserves. I also reserved 1 Immo with Doms, but on that diagonal battlefield, they didn't have a great chance to flank anything (I rolled my own short edge).
I poured a lot of fire into the Centurions (on the advice of a Chaos player who had faced this army before), but they soaked it up all game and I never did get the last one. The Doms and Seraphim on one flank got Cypher and the Tac squad; he dropped his Sternguard behind me, but Uriah's big blob wore them down; his Dred and the empty upgraded Drop Pods did quite a bit of damage to my backfield, including an Exo, but never claimed any objectives; his GravCents and Thunderfire Cannon took down Doms and Rets midfield; the other Seraphim got the Assassin, and my reserve Doms just grabbed objectives.
At the end, he had Calgar, one Centurion, half his Legion, a couple of Sternguard, the Dred, Scouts, and his Thunderfire Cannon; I had the remnants of three squads, 1 Immo (he popped the other 5 hulls), Uriah and a priest, and Celestine (take 2). We called it after turn 4 before it turned into me running away to avoid being tabled by the Thunderfire Cannon-- I had 10 points to his 2. I ultimately won it despite many errors and dreadful AoF rolls due to having more units on the board early when there were lots of scorable objectives, and then being more mobile late in the game when the objectives started to wear thin. He held 2 objectives all game, but I danced around the other 4 as the cards dictated. He had me outgunned and probably would have tabled me if it had gone beyond turn 5.
Canoness
2x Sisters in Rhino
3x Dominions with Melta
2x Exorcist
1x Avenger Strike Fighter
1x Marauder Destroyer Super-heavy flyer
1x Vindicare Assassin
Why the Marauder Destroyer? Well FW was allowed for the tournament and I rarely get to use it. I'm sure everyone will be surprised!
(And it's not like it's very dangerous)
Well, back from the tournament.
Round #1 - Dark Angels/White Scars biker hell /w Dark Shroud
We did a modified Maelstrom/Scouring mission, basically using tacticabl objective cards and normal objectives being worth 1,2,2,3,3,4 points.
I place all my objectives close to the edges to split him up and get some use out of my dominions outflanking. Of course his objectives are centre-ish and he gets all the high-value ones!
My dominions/exorcists did their thing and deleted his command squad and most of the other bikes. In the end he only had Khan, a Chapter Master and a few bikes.
But because I only got cards for the objectives in the centre (with no way to get there) I lost pretty badly on points.
He did learn that bikes, even ones with 2+ cover saves, don't like Dominions though.
Vindicare only immobilised his Darkshroud then got shot at by some bikes with bolters and promptly failed the first 3 saves he needed to take.
My Marauder Destroyer dropped his bombs on bikes and even killed a few. But mostly flew around looking badass.
Round #2 - Imperial Guard tank army with aegis defense line
He deployed close to his edge spread out behind his defense line, I won the roll to go first so I scouted up with the dominions. He failed to seize.
It was pretty much over turn 1. My dice were HOT. Blew up his Pask-punisher Warlord and 2 other Leman Russes with my 3 dominions. Vindicare blew up his Hydra. Exorcists blew up 2 Chimeras.
He was left with some scraps of infantry scrambling out of the wrecks of most his vehicles, failed his reserve rolls in turn 2 and in my turn 3 I tabled him.
Marauder Destroyer bombed some infantry but didn't have much targets when it came on.
Round #3: - 4 Knightts + Culexus Assassin
Tournament allowed forgeworld units but each unit was Unique. So he had 1 normal knight (A Warden I think) and 3 different FW Knights: Castigator, Atrophos en Acheron.
A tough matchup to be sure. I messed up my deployment and infiltrated my vindicare too far away. He then infiltrated his Culexus close to my Dominions, preventing them to scout close but out of LoS of the Knights.
Table Quarters deployment, so basically, the match consisted of me retreating slowly and giving up units while whittling down his knights. Flyers did their bit but the game ended on turn 6 (random game length) with 2 knights down, 1 at 1 HP and 1 at full.
He had the formation that gave his knights better shields etc..
Close call when he charged 2 dominions that had survived a previous charge+combat somehow and fled. I then rolled 2 sixes for overwatch, penetrated twice (the knight was at 1 HP) and he saved both :(
At the end I just had my canoness and 4 sisters huddled in the corner of my deployment zone and my 2 flyers.
Marauder Destroyer fired 8 missiles and his cannons at the rear end of the Castigator, hit everything and then I proceeded to fail every armour penetration roll. And the missiles are ordnance to boot! He then did bomb 2 knights and finished one off by pure luck of glances.
Vindicare took pot shots at Knights but was foiled by the shields. He did make my opponent sweat tho, but his 1 HP knight was just too lucky... I also forgot about him for 2 turns.
Since the mission was a modified Relic-type mission with tac cards he only won by a slight margin. Only having 4 big units (the Culexus died early and easily) doesn't make it easy to take objectives and/or relics!
MacPhail wrote:Sorry for the delay... thanks for great comments, Jancoran and PanzerLeader!
I took 2000 points against Ultramarines yesterday and did well. I did try the Heavy Flamer Rets in a Rhino and sent them after his Centurions thinking to force lots of saves, but he had them on all 3 levels of a building which weakened the templates (that may be a house rule-- templates affect only one level of a structure). They should have had a different target... maybe hold them in the rear or in cover as a counter against deep strikers.
Centurions are the perfect target for melta-minions - 2+ save, no invulnerable, and thus reliant on cover against AP1 weapons? If only they were T4...
Mr Morden wrote:liking this one as a potential Sisters model
MacPhail wrote:Sorry for the delay... thanks for great comments, Jancoran and PanzerLeader!
I took 2000 points against Ultramarines yesterday and did well. I did try the Heavy Flamer Rets in a Rhino and sent them after his Centurions thinking to force lots of saves, but he had them on all 3 levels of a building which weakened the templates (that may be a house rule-- templates affect only one level of a structure). They should have had a different target... maybe hold them in the rear or in cover as a counter against deep strikers.
Centurions are the perfect target for melta-minions - 2+ save, no invulnerable, and thus reliant on cover against AP1 weapons? If only they were T4...
Mr Morden wrote:liking this one as a potential Sisters model
I place all my objectives close to the edges to split him up and get some use out of my dominions outflanking.
Brilliant. Why do I not think of these things? I often place one or more in cover so my HB Rets can camp it, and I like having a couple of 60-point minimum BSS squads to do the same with inconveniently located objectives far from the action, but I think you're on to something.
Thorned_Lily wrote: If you don't want to crush the Orks from range but still want to be able to deal with them up close, absolutely take Flamers and Heavy Flamers in your squads. You'll get a couple kills in overwatch every time you're charged, not to mention the kills you'll get if you're close enough the turn before they get to charge.
I have the fairly unpopular opinion that penitent engines can be pretty good when used properly, plus I love the model and the fluff behind them. If you want to use them, go for it. Be warned though, because they're open-topped anything with high enough strength to penetrate your armor can explode it. That said, dual Heavy Flamers mean you'll get a bunch of kills before you charge or if they charge you, then those things are just brutal in CC. I love them and basically always include a squad of 3 in my list.
Cool. Glad to hear at least someone finds Penitent Engines useful. I doubt I'll field 3 until the plastics come out (someday...) because the first one I tried to build is the only model that I had to take a long break from, after barely containing the angry urge to throw it through the nearest window during construction. I finally built both of mine by giving no thought to aesthetic beauty and cramming as much Green Stuff as I needed into the gaps, combined with gobs of GW's craptastic superglue (I like GW's superglue because I can peel it off my fingers once it dries by running the fingers under a warm tap and applying soap periodically while scraping with a thumbnail).
I tend to play mostly foot Sisters (with some vanilla Marine allies), and my regular opponent tends to play foot Orks.
I'm not a huge fan of sitting in my deployment zone trying to gun down the Orks before they reach and obliterate my squads in melee, because I know it's not fun to spend the game charging across the table and getting whittled down but being mostly unable to do anything. Because of its unexpected killiness in the first game I used them in, my Battle Conclave is primary target number one for any of my mom's shooty units like Lootas, so typically it doesn't last to turn 2 when I field it.
I also play low-points games of 750 to 1000 points to make the matches go faster, on a table 4 feet by 4 feet.
Is there a way to build my army to deal with mobs of Orks up close? Would equipping my Battle Sister Squads with a flamer and heavy flamer be effective enough? How about trying to get Penitent Engines into melee?
I don't tailor my armies, but there are several things I take in SOB lists which help a lot with orks.
Dominions with Melta in Repressors (covers anti-horde and anti-tank)
Repressors with Heavy Flamers (if allying with a Drop Pod force) or Heavy Bolters (in a bastion, if in a pure force)
Battle Sisters with Melta/Flamer or Heavy Flamer in Repressor
BSS Blob with Priests, Jacobus and/or Celestine. Wear down those Orks. Rerollable 3+/5++ is a real pain to orks. Hit and Running out, shooting them again and then staying in on their turn is an even bigger pain.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Example TAC Pure SOB List that would do fine with Orks:
Celestine - 135
Jacobus - 100
4 Priests with Litanies and 2 Power Mauls - 145
19 SOB with HF/F - 243
5 BSS with Melta/F in Repressor - 150
5 Dom with 4 Melta in Repressor with Laud - 190
5 Dom with 4 Melta in Repressor with Laud - 190
5 Dom with 4 Melta in Repressor - 180
Exorcist - 125
Exorcist - 125
6 Rets with 4 HB and Simulacrum - 122
Bastion with 2 Void Shields and Ammo Dump - 150
1850
I'm not a fan of tailoring my list to a particular opponent in principle, but it gets kinda hard to justify that viewpoint to my inner powergamer when my mom is the only person I've played 40k against for the past decade, and ever since Allies came back in 6th, she's pretty much only played Orks and keeps her list almost identical from game to game. And that's a situation that's likely to continue for the foreseeable future.
Repressors aren't really an option for me, since they're resin models from FW and I just don't want to deal with that in general. I do like the idea of a large squad of Battle Sisters led by a Priestess though, and have wanted to field a squad of 20 Sisters ever since I saw that one picture of such a unit in the Witch Hunters codex. I might stick my one power maul Superior in there.
GoonBandito wrote: I know you said Foot sisters, but Mechanised is the way to go imo. A unit of Battle Sisters with 2x Flamers in a Rhino is nasty to Orks - drive up to them, and Flame out of the hatch. Then let them charge you and eat 2x Flamers in overwatch. They'll glance the Rhino out, but on your next turn (assuming you pass your Pinning test...) you then activate your Act of Faith for Preferred Enemy and unload another 2x flame templates as well as rapid-fire bolt guns. If anything is left alive, they charge you again to eat more flamers in overwatch. Get some Dominion Squads with Meltaguns or Exorcists so you can S8 those T4 mega-nobs and insta kill them, as well as easily deal with any Kans, Dreads, Trukks or Wagons you might see.
Retributors and/or a Command Squad with Heavy Bolters are not too shabby against mobs of Boyz either.
The Foot Sisters thing is both an aesthetic issue, and the result of a very not-fun game I played once.
The aesthetic part is that I prefer the looks of infantry to the looks of tanks (it goes into video games too - in Planetside 2 I'd rather fight on foot than hop in a tank or aircraft. I make an exception for the ATVs since they're just transport vehicles, and I always swap to Third-Person view on them so I can see my character).
The bad experience was my first game with a fully mechanized list on both sides. It felt very boring to just move tanks around and wait for other tanks and heavy weapons units to pop them open with weapons fire. It turned me off of vehicles altogether for some months, but eventually someone suggested that although mechanized lists were seemingly out of the picture for me, I might consider using combat tanks like the Exorcist or Predator. Which I tried, and it was pretty fun. I've also tried taking Immolators and having the infantry go on foot while the Immolators provide fire support.
Exorcists are my favored way of dealing with Meganobz.
Btothefnrock wrote: Heavy flamers wreck orks. Shoot them at the bikes, watch him remove models. haha
My mom never liked the Bikes. She's a big fan of just charging across the field and letting shootas and choppas rip. Simple, brutal, effective.
She and my dad met at the strategy club at their college, playing games like Axis and Allies.
I come from a family of gamer nerds.
My dad would play too, but he's a bit obsessive about collecting and experimenting, and doesn't have the money to collect 40k models the way he knows he would (especially now that he'll probably have some fairly serious ongoing medical bills for the rest of his life (stage 4 colon cancer, if you were wondering)). Also he doesn't enjoy building or painting miniatures.
Pouncey wrote: Repressors aren't really an option for me, since they're resin models from FW and I just don't want to deal with that in general. I do like the idea of a large squad of Battle Sisters led by a Priestess though, and have wanted to field a squad of 20 Sisters ever since I saw that one picture of such a unit in the Witch Hunters codex. I might stick my one power maul Superior in there.
Just convert repressors. I've got a thread if you're interested.
Pouncey wrote: Repressors aren't really an option for me, since they're resin models from FW and I just don't want to deal with that in general. I do like the idea of a large squad of Battle Sisters led by a Priestess though, and have wanted to field a squad of 20 Sisters ever since I saw that one picture of such a unit in the Witch Hunters codex. I might stick my one power maul Superior in there.
Just convert repressors. I've got a thread if you're interested.
It's gonna have to wait a long time. We've got our house up for sale and as a result, all of my WH40k stuff is packed into boxes because having it strewn throughout two rooms and a hallway was not particularly appealing. Plus the storage shelves in the hallway were easy to bump into.
And when I say all my WH40k stuff, I mean ALL of it. Glue, paint, books, and every single model which is not in my glass display case I use for minis that don't go anywhere else. Some of those models I'm not even sure how I'm going to get to the new place, because they are ridiculously delicate, because they're Arco-Flagellants I made from Dark Elf Witch Elf models, with various Ecclesiarchy-looking stuff glued to the end of the whips, half of which are glued to a dagger hand with the dagger cut off. Or something. It's been a while.
Mallich wrote: @ Furyou Miko: It's broken for me too. I did a quick search and I think that it's this character. Correct, Morden?
Yep - no idea why its not working - can ee it fine on mine..........ah well. They have a nice not Farseer as well.
On the main subject of the topic - looking at Kauyon some potentially useful bits and pices if you are happy yo include Allies>
The White Scars list allows you take them with the usual interesting WS Chapter rules but also BOTH normal and White scar relics.
The Hunters Eye caught my eye - cheap non weapon artefact that gives the model +1 BS and alsp any unit he is part of Ignores Cover - perhaps useful with retributors?
Just another heads-up for Sisters players: the Immolator kit is now being shown as Sold Out and no longer available worldwide. This will be the first time a core kit for us has become unavailable since the digital codex. Doesn't seem like a positive development.
the_Armyman wrote: Just another heads-up for Sisters players: the Immolator kit is now being shown as Sold Out and no longer available worldwide. This will be the first time a core kit for us has become unavailable since the digital codex. Doesn't seem like a positive development.
And it is our only non-fw full plastic kit to boot.
Time for dread or time for salvation only time will tell
the_Armyman wrote: Just another heads-up for Sisters players: the Immolator kit is now being shown as Sold Out and no longer available worldwide. This will be the first time a core kit for us has become unavailable since the digital codex. Doesn't seem like a positive development.
Steel thy self against doubt and have faith!
Pray my brothers and sisters for deliverance and vindication!...and plastic kits...so many plastic kits...
the_Armyman wrote: But remember, if you buy an Exorcist, the Immo kit comes as standard. Maybe that's GW's dastardly plan
It's similar to the Rhino/Razorback for Marines. The Razorback kit makes both, yet we have a separate Rhino kit just the same. Maybe it's a similar case?
the_Armyman wrote: But remember, if you buy an Exorcist, the Immo kit comes as standard. Maybe that's GW's dastardly plan
It's similar to the Rhino/Razorback for Marines. The Razorback kit makes both, yet we have a separate Rhino kit just the same. Maybe it's a similar case?
Nah, I was being silly. An Exorcist is more analogous to a Predator, not a Razorback. I doubt they'll keep making Exorcists if they don't keep making Immos. It's just the matter that they still have Exorcists in stock atm. As soon as those are gone, Exorcists are extinct, too.
Here is a rough approximation of my opponents list:
Spoiler:
White Scars Gladius
Demi Company #1
Khan on Bike
2x Tac squads, 10 marines, grav cannon, melta, rhino
1x Tac squad, 5 marines, melta, drop pod
5x bikes, 2x grav
1x devs, 5 marines, 2x grav cannon, rhino
Demi Company #2
Chaplain on Bike
2x Tac squads, 10 marines, grav cannon, melta, rhino
1x Tac squad, 5 marines, melta, rhino
1x mm bike
1x devs, 5 marines, 2x grav cannon, rhino
Aux #1
3x5 close combat scouts
Inquisitor w/ 3x skulls
Mission was ITC #5 (Big Guns (4 objectives), Maelstorm, Warlord, Line Breaker, High Ground) and Vanguard Deployment.
Turned into a tactically interesting game. We both had servo skulls for opposite reasons. I wanted to deny scouting, he wanted to preserve the freedom to go where he wanted. I put my skulls along the length of his deployment zone, about a quarter inch out to prevent any forward movement. His went in a couple of random places. The objectives essentially ended up along both short board edges, 2 on each side. I rolled up -1 to enemy reserves for a warlord trait which ended up being great.
I deployed first and started everything on the board except the three dominions who outflanked. He null deployed and outflanked everything. I used turn one and two to redeploy everything into the center of the board and took just a couple of pot shots at his drop pod that came down deep in his deployment zone. It landed outside of contest range for either objective so it wasn't a big priority and I wanted to get everything off the short edges so he couldn't effectively strike me with his grav cannons and melta (18" threat range for full BS fire the turn they move on in the Rhinos).
He ended up piece mealing in over turns 2-4 and I got an early lead in maelstorm. I focused on killing of his 4 heavies and keeping mine central, out of range and able to use their 48"+ range to support either side. His mass obsec gave him a good chance of winning big guns except he overcommitted to the objective that gave him line breaker and I was able to clear him off two of them to tie objectives and win on bonus points.
Very happy with the lists damage output. The artillery company formation is awesome.
He null deployed and outflanked everything. I used turn one and two to redeploy everything into the center of the board and took just a couple of pot shots at his drop pod that came down deep in his deployment zone. It landed outside of contest range for either objective.
Should have killed the drop pod turn 1, he would have lost by having no models on the table at the end of the turn.
He null deployed and outflanked everything. I used turn one and two to redeploy everything into the center of the board and took just a couple of pot shots at his drop pod that came down deep in his deployment zone. It landed outside of contest range for either objective.
Should have killed the drop pod turn 1, he would have lost by having no models on the table at the end of the turn.
The pod had 5 marines in it that were hidden by some ruins from the exorcists and the wyverns didn't get them. Poor rolling on the wound on my part and good saves on his. Sorry that wasn't clear enough before.
The Wyverns are already TL and ignores cover. Did the orders really make the Manticore that much better?
Couple of things:
(1) The formation has a rule called "Target Priority." This lets you twin-link all the formations shooting at a single target declared at any point in the shooting phase provided the target is within 18" of a unit with a vox caster. The CCS was essentially able to twin-link itself and the manticore every turn thanks to its vox caster. Not as good for the wyverns except the heavy bolters now get twin-linked if shooting the same target. The big benefit is that you can declare it at any point, so you can use meltas or exorcists to open transports and then twin-link against the contents if you need to.
(2) It lets me separate the Wyverns into 2 units which helps ton against MSU builds. It also increases their survivability.
(3) Suppressive Fire to give any of those units pinning is a nice touch. The ability to shoot the manticore as S10, twin-linked, Ignore Cover, d3 large blast is fantastic though. The S10 plus the range makes it much more versatile and useful than the veteran squad it replaced.
(4) It lets you cover the biggest gap in the Sisters codex (barrage) with a very minimum tax (really just a 40 point enginseer). An allied detachment requires the HQ + 1 Troop and gives you just a single heavy. Going double CAD requires the second troop as well. Its just an incredibly point efficient formation.
The Wyverns are already TL and ignores cover. Did the orders really make the Manticore that much better?
Couple of things:
(1) The formation has a rule called "Target Priority." This lets you twin-link all the formations shooting at a single target declared at any point in the shooting phase provided the target is within 18" of a unit with a vox caster. The CCS was essentially able to twin-link itself and the manticore every turn thanks to its vox caster. Not as good for the wyverns except the heavy bolters now get twin-linked if shooting the same target. The big benefit is that you can declare it at any point, so you can use meltas or exorcists to open transports and then twin-link against the contents if you need to.
(2) It lets me separate the Wyverns into 2 units which helps ton against MSU builds. It also increases their survivability.
(3) Suppressive Fire to give any of those units pinning is a nice touch. The ability to shoot the manticore as S10, twin-linked, Ignore Cover, d3 large blast is fantastic though. The S10 plus the range makes it much more versatile and useful than the veteran squad it replaced.
(4) It lets you cover the biggest gap in the Sisters codex (barrage) with a very minimum tax (really just a 40 point enginseer). An allied detachment requires the HQ + 1 Troop and gives you just a single heavy. Going double CAD requires the second troop as well. Its just an incredibly point efficient formation.
Ah I see now. Thanks for the clarification. Does look pretty sweet now
So after seeing the Kauyon and Mont'ka books, I don't want a new Sisters codex. I just want some cool bonus relics, warlord traits and a few formations in a campaign book. I really like the current book and I think just a couple of formations to boost our lower end units would be terrific. A splash release is also probably the best hope for keeping the AS alive. What do you guys think?
PanzerLeader wrote: So after seeing the Kauyon and Mont'ka books, I don't want a new Sisters codex. I just want some cool bonus relics, warlord traits and a few formations in a campaign book. I really like the current book and I think just a couple of formations to boost our lower end units would be terrific. A splash release is also probably the best hope for keeping the AS alive. What do you guys think?
They Could and Should have done this in the Shield of Baal - perfect opportunity to do so.......................
PanzerLeader wrote: So after seeing the Kauyon and Mont'ka books, I don't want a new Sisters codex. I just want some cool bonus relics, warlord traits and a few formations in a campaign book. I really like the current book and I think just a couple of formations to boost our lower end units would be terrific. A splash release is also probably the best hope for keeping the AS alive. What do you guys think?
I've been saying for years I don't want another codex. GW's current crop of writers are terrible, and they'd just butcher existing fluff to shoehorn in some new, atrocious-looking models to butcher the existing aesthetic. A campaign book with some formations would suit me just fine. Though, if I'm being honest, I wouldn't pay $75 for a dozen pages of text.
At this point I'd settle for some Formations, production of oop models, the immolator kit back, and a Sister Superior model with plasma pistol and power sword (not that I need it anymore.)
So, I'm gonna rematch the deamonette player this Wedsneday, and was wondering what you guys thought of my list (1,500 point game)
Spoiler:
HQ/Warlord:
Uriah “Hobo Jac” Jacobus -100 points
Troops:
19 Sisters of Battles with one Heavy Flamer, one Simulacrum Imperialis, one Veteran Sister with Condemnor Boltgun, Power Sword -290 points
4 Sisters of Battles with one Heavy Flamer, one meltagun, one Simulacrum Imperialis, one Veteran Sister with Bolt Pistol, Power Sword -125 points
Dedicated Transport-Immolator with Storm Bolter, Twin-Linked Multi-Melta -65 points
Priest with Book of St. Lucius, Power Maul, Bolt Pistol -46 points
Heavy Support:
Exorcist -125 points
Exorcist -125 points
4 Retributors with Heavy Bolters, Veteran Retributor with plasma pistol, power sword -140 points
Priest with Plasma Pistol and Power Maul -55 points
Lord of War: Cerastus Knight Acheron -415 points
I can expect him to have two Daemon Princes, a Keeper of Secrets, and however many daemonettes and Heralds he has points for after that (two or three big blobs iirc.) Also all the psyker shenanigans.
PanzerLeader wrote: So after seeing the Kauyon and Mont'ka books, I don't want a new Sisters codex. I just want some cool bonus relics, warlord traits and a few formations in a campaign book. I really like the current book and I think just a couple of formations to boost our lower end units would be terrific. A splash release is also probably the best hope for keeping the AS alive. What do you guys think?
I've been saying for years I don't want another codex. GW's current crop of writers are terrible, and they'd just butcher existing fluff to shoehorn in some new, atrocious-looking models to butcher the existing aesthetic. A campaign book with some formations would suit me just fine. Though, if I'm being honest, I wouldn't pay $75 for a dozen pages of text.
I hadn't considered that, but it's a damned good point.
After the new Necrons, it's pretty clear that revamped models aren't always a good thing. Even if we get something that might be considered an improvement, like Dark Eldar (in my eyes, it's an improvement, I'm sure at least some DE players would disagree), it would probably end up being very different.
Maybe I should learn to use a Dremel to hollow out the head area and do the head swaps I want that way... Then learn to pin so I can add tails.
The current models look good, the only reason I really want plastics is for easy conversions. But you're right, they'll probably end up butchering the aesthetic instead of just making a plastic version of what already exists, which would be very bad. : (
Hoitash wrote: So, I'm gonna rematch the deamonette player this Wedsneday, and was wondering what you guys thought of my list (1,500 point game)
Spoiler:
HQ/Warlord:
Uriah “Hobo Jac” Jacobus -100 points
Troops:
19 Sisters of Battles with one Heavy Flamer, one Simulacrum Imperialis, one Veteran Sister with Condemnor Boltgun, Power Sword -290 points
4 Sisters of Battles with one Heavy Flamer, one meltagun, one Simulacrum Imperialis, one Veteran Sister with Bolt Pistol, Power Sword -125 points
Dedicated Transport-Immolator with Storm Bolter, Twin-Linked Multi-Melta -65 points
Priest with Book of St. Lucius, Power Maul, Bolt Pistol -46 points
Heavy Support:
Exorcist -125 points
Exorcist -125 points
4 Retributors with Heavy Bolters, Veteran Retributor with plasma pistol, power sword -140 points
Priest with Plasma Pistol and Power Maul -55 points
Lord of War: Cerastus Knight Acheron -415 points
I can expect him to have two Daemon Princes, a Keeper of Secrets, and however many daemonettes and Heralds he has points for after that (two or three big blobs iirc.) Also all the psyker shenanigans.
Too many toys. PP/PS on the Rets (take a Simulacrum and extra girl instead). Saves you 3.
Priest should have the Litanies of Faith, not BoSL. Costs you 10.
Condemnor and PS on the BSS is really not worth it. Saves you 20?
Skip the SB on the Immolator. Saves you 5?
Simulacrum on 4 girls, with PS is also a waste. Saves you 20?
38 points left over.
Take another sister on the Blob of BSS, a priest and a bolt pistol. That should do it if my math is right.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I'm not sold on an Acheron, but let us know how it goes.
I'm a sucker for having a physical book with everything I need in it so I'd love for a printed hardcover version of our codex. I think we could use some small tweaks to our units too, notably the repentia and penitent engines but I feel the engines suffer with dreadnaughts so maybe its not an engine thing but a core walker rules thing. Repentia suffer from poor assault rules and delivery methods of which a Land raider just isn't efficient and rhinos... rhino.
Formations would be awesome as well as a Decurion style detachment would be fun to play with. I love the current immolater kit so hopefully it doesn't change. Plastic sisters would be amazing to have obviously. For me it's based on pricing, the pewter models are just far too expensive even though I really do think they still look good. I have a 500 point sister army (with spares so I can probably squeeze maybe 750) and I just couldn't justify continuing to grow it at the current price of models. Sadly for now it'll just be allying to larger IoM forces to do bigger matches.
All things considered though I'd be ok with a campaign book to bring us into 7th. I doubt they'd do one without releasing some plastic sisters though cause they can't honestly expect sales on the current pewter line at it's prices.
I intend to use 1 or 2 converted models as Priestesses, and along with a not-Inquisitor (no specific character, just a custom character that's not an Inquisitor but using Inquisitor rules because they're close enough) with Power Armor, a Storm Bolter, and a Thunder Hammer I could probably get away with calling a Power Maul if I need to save some points or want to strike at Initiative, stick that whole mess in either a Sisters of Battle or a Salamanders Chapter Tactics Space Marine unit.
My question is, what are some good wargear loadouts for Sisters of Battle Priestesses? I have access to a decent variety of Imperial parts for a variety of weapons.
I'm assuming you mean as a Ministorum Priest, so either with Plasma Guns in a Battle Sister Squad (to make use of the Preferred Enemy Act of Faith), stock standard as Zealot (Fearless/Hatred) providers for a squad when you are short on points, or with Power Axes/Eviscerators to provide AP2 in melee. If you are using them in a dedicated melee squad, then the Litanies of the Faith relic is a must have so you are not relying on Ld7 to activate the War Hymns.
Power Maul could be an option, especially if you are running 3 of them - the third one gets the Maul so you can use the Smash War Hymn for S5 AP2 at I3.
Hoitash wrote: So, I'm gonna rematch the deamonette player this Wedsneday, and was wondering what you guys thought of my list (1,500 point game)
Spoiler:
HQ/Warlord:
Uriah “Hobo Jac” Jacobus -100 points
Troops:
19 Sisters of Battles with one Heavy Flamer, one Simulacrum Imperialis, one Veteran Sister with Condemnor Boltgun, Power Sword -290 points
4 Sisters of Battles with one Heavy Flamer, one meltagun, one Simulacrum Imperialis, one Veteran Sister with Bolt Pistol, Power Sword -125 points
Dedicated Transport-Immolator with Storm Bolter, Twin-Linked Multi-Melta -65 points
Priest with Book of St. Lucius, Power Maul, Bolt Pistol -46 points
Heavy Support:
Exorcist -125 points
Exorcist -125 points
4 Retributors with Heavy Bolters, Veteran Retributor with plasma pistol, power sword -140 points
Priest with Plasma Pistol and Power Maul -55 points
Lord of War: Cerastus Knight Acheron -415 points
I can expect him to have two Daemon Princes, a Keeper of Secrets, and however many daemonettes and Heralds he has points for after that (two or three big blobs iirc.) Also all the psyker shenanigans.
Too many toys. PP/PS on the Rets (take a Simulacrum and extra girl instead). Saves you 3.
Priest should have the Litanies of Faith, not BoSL. Costs you 10.
Condemnor and PS on the BSS is really not worth it. Saves you 20?
Skip the SB on the Immolator. Saves you 5?
Simulacrum on 4 girls, with PS is also a waste. Saves you 20?
38 points left over.
Take another sister on the Blob of BSS, a priest and a bolt pistol. That should do it if my math is right.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I'm not sold on an Acheron, but let us know how it goes.
I agree with this. I'm not sold on taking the big sister blob as well. I don't think it lets you kill enough, especially against demonette hordes. Let me know about the Acheron specifically though.
well the blob sisters aren't necessarily going to kill as much as they are going to stand dangerous units in place for a very long time (when properly equipped of course).
There is great value to taking the strengths of an enemy away from them, and sometimes that is all you have to do to win. Have we not all seen armies who use "deathstars" who would be quite frustrated by a unit that simply holds them in place and disallows them from scoring nor from doing real damage?
It's something to think about. I won more tournaments with Sisters of Battle than any other army for some reason (8 Best overall and twice that for Best General just with them). Blob Sisters were at least half of those wins. The game has changed dramatically since the blob sisters I used, but the basic tenet does still remain: Taking away the enemy strength is a mighty blow indeed. Sometimes you don't have to be stronger when the game starts. you just have to be in the right place at the right time when it ends.
Jancoran wrote: well the blob sisters aren't necessarily going to kill as much as they are going to stand dangerous units in place for a very long time (when properly equipped of course).
There is great value to taking the strengths of an enemy away from them, and sometimes that is all you have to do to win. Have we not all seen armies who use "deathstars" who would be quite frustrated by a unit that simply holds them in place and disallows them from scoring nor from doing real damage?
It's something to think about. I won more tournaments with Sisters of Battle than any other army for some reason (8 Best overall and twice that for Best General just with them). Blob Sisters were at least half of those wins. The game has changed dramatically since the blob sisters I used, but the basic tenet does still remain: Taking away the enemy strength is a mighty blow indeed. Sometimes you don't have to be stronger when the game starts. you just have to be in the right place at the right time when it ends.
=)
This is true. I just don't think deathstars are a common part of the meta anymore, especially those without access to Hit & Run. In this particular case, knowing he will be fighting multiple demonette units, I think the blob is a bigger liability than asset.
Jancoran wrote: well the blob sisters aren't necessarily going to kill as much as they are going to stand dangerous units in place for a very long time (when properly equipped of course).
There is great value to taking the strengths of an enemy away from them, and sometimes that is all you have to do to win. Have we not all seen armies who use "deathstars" who would be quite frustrated by a unit that simply holds them in place and disallows them from scoring nor from doing real damage?
It's something to think about. I won more tournaments with Sisters of Battle than any other army for some reason (8 Best overall and twice that for Best General just with them). Blob Sisters were at least half of those wins. The game has changed dramatically since the blob sisters I used, but the basic tenet does still remain: Taking away the enemy strength is a mighty blow indeed. Sometimes you don't have to be stronger when the game starts. you just have to be in the right place at the right time when it ends.
=)
This is true. I just don't think deathstars are a common part of the meta anymore, especially those without access to Hit & Run. In this particular case, knowing he will be fighting multiple demonette units, I think the blob is a bigger liability than asset.
How so? I need the dakka and since it's kill points there's no transport VP's for him to grab, and my power armour might keep me alive for at least one turn.
...I probably shoulda mentioned it was kill points sooner; the daemonette, ork/csm, and eldar player in my group aren't big on objectives.
Jancoran wrote: well the blob sisters aren't necessarily going to kill as much as they are going to stand dangerous units in place for a very long time (when properly equipped of course).
There is great value to taking the strengths of an enemy away from them, and sometimes that is all you have to do to win. Have we not all seen armies who use "deathstars" who would be quite frustrated by a unit that simply holds them in place and disallows them from scoring nor from doing real damage?
It's something to think about. I won more tournaments with Sisters of Battle than any other army for some reason (8 Best overall and twice that for Best General just with them). Blob Sisters were at least half of those wins. The game has changed dramatically since the blob sisters I used, but the basic tenet does still remain: Taking away the enemy strength is a mighty blow indeed. Sometimes you don't have to be stronger when the game starts. you just have to be in the right place at the right time when it ends.
=)
This is true. I just don't think deathstars are a common part of the meta anymore, especially those without access to Hit & Run. In this particular case, knowing he will be fighting multiple demonette units, I think the blob is a bigger liability than asset.
How so? I need the dakka and since it's kill points there's no transport VP's for him to grab, and my power armour might keep me alive for at least one turn.
...I probably shoulda mentioned it was kill points sooner; the daemonette, ork/csm, and eldar player in my group aren't big on objectives.
\\
I might be misunderstanding the question?
A blob is a hard kill point to earn. 3+ saves (re-rolled when in melee with a Priests Hymn) and 6+ invul saves, Zealots (because: priests) and they take up space for you.
As for objectives, if your fellow players don't play normal missions, they are going to be in trouble when an actual tournament occurs. Lol. But I suppose all my comments center around tournament play where objectives are the great balancing factor for many armies. Missions do a LOT for balance.
Side note: Transports count as kill points and are a lot easier to give up than a blob.
But again I am not 100% sure I am understanding the thrust of your question so everything I just typed might not make any sense. Lol.
A lot of people were against the blob, so I was just curious why.
The people I hang out with are way too busy/lazy/fluff-oriented for tourneys, but since you mentioned it the one time I beat the eldar player it was by holding an objective with a Sister and priest while kiting his wraithguard with St. Celestine.
Hoitash wrote: A lot of people were against the blob, so I was just curious why.
The people I hang out with are way too busy/lazy/fluff-oriented for tourneys, but since you mentioned it the one time I beat the eldar player it was by holding an objective with a Sister and priest while kiting his wraithguard with St. Celestine.
Well done.
"acceptable losses" is a concept we Adepta Sororitas fans must embrace.
As for the blob, I'll let you in on a secret: anything unorthodox will be met with cold stares and unfriendly commentary most of the time. here are a few things I like about blobs though (not to try and sell them to you as the second coming or anything but it isn't as if they completely lack virtue)
1. Blobs are by definition very hard to shoot dead. it isn't that you can't damage them. Its the sheer amount of effort it takes. effort takes time. Time is a commodity in 40K games.
2. Zealot priests in the unit make it immovable. Nothing better when you want to be on an objective and the enemy has to kill ALL of you just to do it. Objective Secured? Even better and becaue the blob is so big, they can force the point of enemy contact AWAY from the objective while being on it themselves just by scattering their front "layer"
3. If you have 10 Sisters of Battle... and you have ten more... then what you really have is an extremely sturdy rhino with a TON of firing points and a lot of guns affixed to it. So if Dakka really is the goal, what's better than a Rhino that starts with 10 bolters attached and fires them all on the move? When you tilt your head slightly to the left, things can look much different!
4. Lets assume the entirety of the enemy force cannot be fixated on the blob. That is the case in a majority of games. In that situation, every turn that ticks away makes it geometrically less likely the enemy will EVER kill the entire thing. Time simply becomes the enemy.
5. 3+ re-rollable saves in melee is just insane. Even as bad as Sisters of Battle are in close combat, if they rush in and re-roll to hits (Zealot), re-roll to wounds (Priest) and in future rounds use the Preferred Enemy Act of Faith if necessary, those numbers do add up to real damage. Now Daemonettes are rough. i'll grant you that. What I don't know is how the Sisters of Battle aren't using their pistols (and a lot of them) and then charging with all those re-rolls... Even Daemonettes wont like it, even though they go first. People forget that Sisters of Battle have pistols now and a Priest makes using them worthwhile.
So just consider it. They won't go down in history as the most powerful thing in the multiverse, but they will probably surprise you with their utility.
When I run Jac as my HQ, I go blob; I like the 5+ invul and the joys of Zealot (and Jac's shotgun cuz it's what a shotgun should be.)
The real question is if the blob will pan out as opposed to seraphim with flamers (stupid deep strike misroll) though in that regard i question having the exorcists...
...For that matter, I could be a complete jerk and bring an Avenger Strike Fighter instead (dance daemonettes, dance to the might of the Imperium's version of an A-10!)
Jancoran wrote: well the blob sisters aren't necessarily going to kill as much as they are going to stand dangerous units in place for a very long time (when properly equipped of course).
There is great value to taking the strengths of an enemy away from them, and sometimes that is all you have to do to win. Have we not all seen armies who use "deathstars" who would be quite frustrated by a unit that simply holds them in place and disallows them from scoring nor from doing real damage?
It's something to think about. I won more tournaments with Sisters of Battle than any other army for some reason (8 Best overall and twice that for Best General just with them). Blob Sisters were at least half of those wins. The game has changed dramatically since the blob sisters I used, but the basic tenet does still remain: Taking away the enemy strength is a mighty blow indeed. Sometimes you don't have to be stronger when the game starts. you just have to be in the right place at the right time when it ends.
=)
This is true. I just don't think deathstars are a common part of the meta anymore, especially those without access to Hit & Run. In this particular case, knowing he will be fighting multiple demonette units, I think the blob is a bigger liability than asset.
How so? I need the dakka and since it's kill points there's no transport VP's for him to grab, and my power armour might keep me alive for at least one turn.
...I probably shoulda mentioned it was kill points sooner; the daemonette, ork/csm, and eldar player in my group aren't big on objectives.
Kill points does change the math a little. Assuming he's running about 45 to 60 demonettes (plus summoning), that's still a rough match up though. The rest of your army might be tied up in trying to kill his supporting units. If you decide to run with the blob, I'd probably double down and add a second one. Without objectives, one of the biggest drawbacks is automatically negated and you can focus on board control. I'd go with a core of Celestine, Jacobus, 2x priests, 2x 20 sisters and a Librarius Conclave with Tiggy and 2x ML 2 librarians. That costs about 1150 points, but it gives you two really tough kill points and lots of divination to make them better. The Full BS overwatch power here would be particularly good. Then I'd add supporting exorcists and dominions to taste.
Jancoran wrote:
Hoitash wrote: A lot of people were against the blob, so I was just curious why.
The people I hang out with are way too busy/lazy/fluff-oriented for tourneys, but since you mentioned it the one time I beat the eldar player it was by holding an objective with a Sister and priest while kiting his wraithguard with St. Celestine.
Well done.
"acceptable losses" is a concept we Adepta Sororitas fans must embrace.
As for the blob, I'll let you in on a secret: anything unorthodox will be met with cold stares and unfriendly commentary most of the time. here are a few things I like about blobs though (not to try and sell them to you as the second coming or anything but it isn't as if they completely lack virtue)
1. Blobs are by definition very hard to shoot dead. it isn't that you can't damage them. Its the sheer amount of effort it takes. effort takes time. Time is a commodity in 40K games.
2. Zealot priests in the unit make it immovable. Nothing better when you want to be on an objective and the enemy has to kill ALL of you just to do it. Objective Secured? Even better and becaue the blob is so big, they can force the point of enemy contact AWAY from the objective while being on it themselves just by scattering their front "layer"
3. If you have 10 Sisters of Battle... and you have ten more... then what you really have is an extremely sturdy rhino with a TON of firing points and a lot of guns affixed to it. So if Dakka really is the goal, what's better than a Rhino that starts with 10 bolters attached and fires them all on the move? When you tilt your head slightly to the left, things can look much different!
4. Lets assume the entirety of the enemy force cannot be fixated on the blob. That is the case in a majority of games. In that situation, every turn that ticks away makes it geometrically less likely the enemy will EVER kill the entire thing. Time simply becomes the enemy.
5. 3+ re-rollable saves in melee is just insane. Even as bad as Sisters of Battle are in close combat, if they rush in and re-roll to hits (Zealot), re-roll to wounds (Priest) and in future rounds use the Preferred Enemy Act of Faith if necessary, those numbers do add up to real damage. Now Daemonettes are rough. i'll grant you that. What I don't know is how the Sisters of Battle aren't using their pistols (and a lot of them) and then charging with all those re-rolls... Even Daemonettes wont like it, even though they go first. People forget that Sisters of Battle have pistols now and a Priest makes using them worthwhile.
So just consider it. They won't go down in history as the most powerful thing in the multiverse, but they will probably surprise you with their utility.
Blobs are good and have a place. I agree with everything you're saying here. For the purposes of building a TAC list, I think the advantages of an MSU build outweigh the advantages of a blob. Part of it might be my experience with big units though. I've been building TAC lists since 3rd edition marines that needed to be capable of killing multiple big units and I've always included lots of blast or high ROF weapons for that reason. At Killadelphia in May I beat a two blob sister list and at the last LVO I beat a 150+ model green tide with my TAC list. Blobs require a lot of planning to take advantage of their strengths in objective missions.
GoonBandito wrote: I'm assuming you mean as a Ministorum Priest, so either with Plasma Guns in a Battle Sister Squad (to make use of the Preferred Enemy Act of Faith), stock standard as Zealot (Fearless/Hatred) providers for a squad when you are short on points, or with Power Axes/Eviscerators to provide AP2 in melee. If you are using them in a dedicated melee squad, then the Litanies of the Faith relic is a must have so you are not relying on Ld7 to activate the War Hymns.
Power Maul could be an option, especially if you are running 3 of them - the third one gets the Maul so you can use the Smash War Hymn for S5 AP2 at I3.
Yes I do mean that, sorry. I should've been clearer. Sorry again.
Plasma guns, while I have tons of them left over from Space Wolves kits, might be a bit iffy fluffwise, but certainly possible (annoyingly, the in-universe commander of my force has a strong dislike for plasma guns due to their tendency to overheat and critically injure or kill the users. It's especially annoying because of how useful plasma weapons are, but he can always be persuaded to use weapons he might not normally consider when the benefits are worth it)
Short on points is likely to happen, as my opponent and I play very slowly due to constantly having to look up rules due to her poor memory and my inability to accurately remember specific phrasing and orders of words, so we play small points games around 750 to 1000 points so each game doesn't take a week. (a couple of hours every night or two, not playing constantly) So stock would certainly help there.
Power axes are certainly fluffy for these particular characters, due to there being a nice piece of art with one of them wielding a power axe. They'll use just about any weapon though, they've used power mauls, a pair of power fists to hug people to death in a big shower of gore, laspistols, bolt pistols, chainswords, pretty much anything they can wield, they'll end up trying at some point in the fluff. Eviscerators would probably be too pricey though, considering the small points limits. I could stick them with a Battle Conclave and hope they withstand the ridiculous amount of firepower my opponent always pours into my Battle Conclaves until every last model is eradicated. She has an understandable terror of Battle Conclaves after watching one with 6 DCAs, 4 Crusaders, Jacobus, accompanied by a 10-strong Repentia squad, clashing with her big Honor Guard squad, Chapter Master, and a Tactical squad in a multi-combat in the middle of the battlefield in my first game with the WD dex in 2011. As for how that battle went, the Chapter Master was the sole survivor on the Space Marine side, and took something like 17 No Retreat! saves, promptly biting the dust himself. I think I lost a Crusader or two and a few Repentia. And that was the first (and only) round of combat.
I could theoretically run a third. There are three of the characters in existence, but the third is generally far away from any fighting, fulfilling a different purpose that I'm just not going to go into. She could show up at some point. Power maul bitz are a problem there though, GW seems to make almost none of them in their plastic kits.
I should point out that I often think things through by typing or talking them out. It used to annoy one of my friends every time I would say, "I dunno why that is..." and then proceed to type out an explanation of why that is. Admittedly, he didn't know that I came up with that explanation as I was typing it, all he saw was the finished message.
135-Retributors 4x Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod 135-Retributors 4x Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod 135-Retributors 4x Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod
What are your guys thoughts on it?
For as up close and personal as this list, you need some kind of assault threat. Otherwise you're extremely vulnerable once on the ground. Since you're already playing with the BA book, I'd look at adding some death company or Mephiston. I'd be willing to drop the third retributor squad to do it.
So I had some time to mess around in Army Builder. Here is an alternate idea for you to consider:
Flesh Tearer Strike Force Chaplain, Angel's Wing 5 Scouts 6 Death Company, Powerfist, Jump Packs Command Squad, 3x Melta Gun 5x Drop Pod
This lets you land a first wave of 3 pods (ideally BA command + retributors) supported by the 2 dominion squads. You then have the multi-tool BSS squads for later in the game as needed. I've really been enjoying the utility provided by a HF/melta gun set up lately. You also have a mini assault bomb of chaplain, DC, and Celestine that can only be snap shoted at when they deep strike in. Just an idea. I think the big thing is that you need an assault element to make this type of pod army work.
The blob kept one Prince at bay and the Acheron nearly wiped out a blob of daemonettes and the Keeper, but I didn't have the Strength to take out the Princes in CC when they Iron Arm-ed, and guess who had Invisibility (the Keeper.)
So besides only having 2.5 hours to play, my real weakness I think was the Exorcists. They inflicted a couple wounds and otherwise did nothing.
At the end of the game I still had the small squad of Sisters in their immo, half the blob, one Exorcist, and the Acheron. An Iron Armed Prince would eventually kill everything, so in the end the result was pretty clear.
Next time I'm ditching the Exorcists for the Avenger. He has psyker shenanigans, so it's only fair I get flyer shenanigans to balance it out (and maybe try to have an objective-based game.)
This is why Celestine is good with Jacobus for the blob.
You tie up a Prince in CC. Then you H&R out, shoot him, tie one or more up again, rinse repeat.
Exorcists can be hit and miss, but in general they do a good job.
It sounds more like you need to practice the list though rather than just change for your opponent. The best way to learn and get better is to practice with one list until you know it back and forth.
pretre wrote: This is why Celestine is good with Jacobus for the blob.
You tie up a Prince in CC. Then you H&R out, shoot him, tie one or more up again, rinse repeat.
Exorcists can be hit and miss, but in general they do a good job.
It sounds more like you need to practice the list though rather than just change for your opponent. The best way to learn and get better is to practice with one list until you know it back and forth.
True. Although if I bring Celestine I lose the 5+ invul, and that came in really handy during the fight.
pretre wrote: This is why Celestine is good with Jacobus for the blob.
You tie up a Prince in CC. Then you H&R out, shoot him, tie one or more up again, rinse repeat.
Exorcists can be hit and miss, but in general they do a good job.
It sounds more like you need to practice the list though rather than just change for your opponent. The best way to learn and get better is to practice with one list until you know it back and forth.
True. Although if I bring Celestine I lose the 5+ invul, and that came in really handy during the fight.
You can still make Jacobus your warlord if you have Celestine.
pretre wrote: This is why Celestine is good with Jacobus for the blob.
You tie up a Prince in CC. Then you H&R out, shoot him, tie one or more up again, rinse repeat.
Exorcists can be hit and miss, but in general they do a good job.
It sounds more like you need to practice the list though rather than just change for your opponent. The best way to learn and get better is to practice with one list until you know it back and forth.
True. Although if I bring Celestine I lose the 5+ invul, and that came in really handy during the fight.
You can still make Jacobus your warlord if you have Celestine.
I really don't like that new rule so I pretend it doesn't exist, and I am prepared to suffer for it.
pretre wrote: This is why Celestine is good with Jacobus for the blob.
You tie up a Prince in CC. Then you H&R out, shoot him, tie one or more up again, rinse repeat.
Exorcists can be hit and miss, but in general they do a good job.
It sounds more like you need to practice the list though rather than just change for your opponent. The best way to learn and get better is to practice with one list until you know it back and forth.
True. Although if I bring Celestine I lose the 5+ invul, and that came in really handy during the fight.
You can still make Jacobus your warlord if you have Celestine.
I really don't like that new rule so I pretend it doesn't exist, and I am prepared to suffer for it.
pretre wrote: This is why Celestine is good with Jacobus for the blob.
You tie up a Prince in CC. Then you H&R out, shoot him, tie one or more up again, rinse repeat.
Exorcists can be hit and miss, but in general they do a good job.
It sounds more like you need to practice the list though rather than just change for your opponent. The best way to learn and get better is to practice with one list until you know it back and forth.
True. Although if I bring Celestine I lose the 5+ invul, and that came in really handy during the fight.
You can still make Jacobus your warlord if you have Celestine.
I really don't like that new rule so I pretend it doesn't exist, and I am prepared to suffer for it.
I'm confused by this. Jacobus and Celestine are both HQ's. So it isn't as if you're pulling any shenanigans by making one or the other the Warlord. Am I missing a page here?
Well Jacobus should also have leadership 10... he's the fearless ultra hobo priest giving 5++ because he is that crazy in love with the big E. And didn't he used to have Ld 10 in the WD dex?
Hoitash wrote: In the previous edition the HQ with the highest Leadership became your Warlord. Now you can pick. I think that's dumb, so I don't bother.
I guess? But there's even a funny book about a Commissar that is anything but the bravest. So I mean... there's fluff to back it up!
I respect the hell out of your fluffy thinking, but it is such a small issue and the codex DOES default to him a Warlord trait for a reason. Clearly the codex is giving him explicit permission to be one!
Further, St. Celestine was described previously as kind of a "answer to their prayers" kind of a thing, kind of like how the Sanguinor is. So there's the fluff there also...
Fair enough on all counts, although just Celestine would feel weird. Maybe drop the exo's for her and a squad of seraphim with hand flamers? If I don't deep strike they should get a chance to burninate something.
Uriah “Hobo Jac” Jacobus -100 points
St Celestine - 135
Priest with Litanies of Faith -45 points
Priest with Power Maul - 40
Troops:
19 Sisters of Battles with one Heavy Flamer, one Simulacrum Imperialis, -248 points
4 Sisters of Battles with one Heavy Flamer, one meltagun - 80 points
Dedicated Transport-Immolator with Twin-Linked Multi-Melta -60 points
Heavy Support:
Exorcist -125 points
Exorcist -125 points
6 Retributors with Heavy Bolters, Simulacrum-102 points
Hoitash wrote: Fair enough on all counts, although just Celestine would feel weird. Maybe drop the exo's for her and a squad of seraphim with hand flamers? If I don't deep strike they should get a chance to burninate something.
Well they are angels, like her. So they could alight down with her. I dont play with Exorcists that often (they can impress but... in the end...) so dropping one for almost any reasons seems fine to me. I love the look of them and they make great centerpieces but...
PanzerLeader wrote: That's actually a good sign. They usually do painting guides shortly before a release.
]
There's some for all sorts of factions right now.
True. But in the last two books alone they've released Raven Guard, White Scars, Tau, Assassins and AM. Forgeworld added some Eldar madness too. Chaos is getting a splash campaign over advent with rumors for a full release in early 2016. I'm trying to be optimistic that including Sisters in such mundane things shows that they'll try to keep the line alive at least as a small, idea for allied detachment faction.
At the very least it shows that GW isn't actively trying to ignore the Sisters and distance themselves from their existence. It would seem by doing this they are at least willing to acknowledge that they are still an army within the universe and they aren't trying to let them slip into obscurity.
Either that or they know how badly we want any sort of attention and they derive some sick pleasure out of watching us squirm for even the slightest crumb that they will be giving us a proper release. Knowing GW this is likely the case,
Automatically Appended Next Post: Lol flutterpie you posted as I was typing, it seems we share a mind on the "gw throwing us a scrap cause they know we just eat it up like starving street children"
the_Armyman wrote: That video would have been fething hilarious if the model he used would have been a new, multipart plastic Sister. Brix would have been shat.
That would have been the most amazing under the radar sneak peak "announcement" they could have done. As it is a kept watching the video diligently to see if I could spot the way he was holding it and judge how much it weighed. My thinking was that if it looked really light then maybe it was a plastic cast of the existing seraphim model which still would have been enough to get me excited.
I am both nervous and excited by this news at the same time. Sadly I feel the immo kit is still an amazing kit as is and if they were to re-release I would hope that it could have been one of the kits that stayed the same.
What do you guys think the removal of the immo kit means? If it means anything at all of course.
Inevitable_Faith wrote: I am both nervous and excited by this news at the same time. Sadly I feel the immo kit is still an amazing kit as is and if they were to re-release I would hope that it could have been one of the kits that stayed the same.
Why would they re-release it? It's just an upgrade sprue to the current Rhino chassis. They have chosen to let it go OOP.
What do you guys think the removal of the immo kit means? If it means anything at all of course.
My guess, and this is only a guess, is that the last time they shot a run of Immo sprues, they fully believed that some of the metal models would have gone OOP by now. The fact that the Immo is gone first seems to be an awkward situation and a rather obvious indication of their intentions for the line.
pretre wrote: Unlikely that they would have destroyed the master for it.
I'm sure they haven't. However, a modern manufacturing company usually has a pretty sophisticated stock managment system that let's them schedule potential issues when it comes to stock shortfalls. A plastic box gets a low inventory flag, they work it into the production schedule before it goes missing from the "shelves."
However, production schedules also take into account the profitability of a run, and if they can make more money producing y-product rather than z-product (taking into account z-product is for a line of metal minis with no physical codex), I can totally see why the Immolator was allowed to go OOP.
Again, it's speculation but well within the realm of possibility. We'll know when the first metal mini for the SoB goes OOP. That will be the deathknell.
To completely end the faction in the game, GW would have to not only remove the models from their webstore, but also remove the rules from the Black Library website. That wouldn't even end the faction necessarily since the models and rules would continue to float around. Not only that, but with so many 3rd party models, you can easily build a plastic SoB army. Unless GW issues an edict that the rules are no longer valid or 8th edition is so wildly different than what came before, we could just continue to play an unsupported faction. How different is that really from what's going on today.
Well the reality is theres a lot of history behind the Sisters of Battle and they are actually fantastic looking on the table in my opinion.
The one thing this always makes me want to do is go to bigger venues. I get asked all the time to attend in order to "prove" this or that but the reality is, I don't give a damn about most of the people who think I owe it to them.
But when you start talking about nuking an entire franchise, I get nervous, and I actually want to go kick a bunch of ass at those bigger venues just to bring awareness up on them.
When you look at Tournament results, tjhey don't mean much unless there's an even number of every codex present and even then only if decent generals ran all of them.
Sisters of Battle need a good general to lead them and a good list and we'd need a lot of them to impact the meta. I see the volume of posters here and think: What could happen if ten of us committed to a group trip to represent the Sisters of Battle at Bay Area Open? One or two won't do it. We need 10-15 for it to be fair. But consider what might happen if, as happened at the Elvensword Ambassadorial Tournament, the Adepta Sororitas made it to the finals? or just a couple in the top ten?
Games Workshop might notice or at least their employees. And the torch might burn just a tiny bit brighter. And maybe more people would try them... and that is the kind of thing that GW DOES respond to.
Anywho, Just musing about it. Twould be so cool to organize 10-15 Sisters of Battle players to make a swing at it.
the_Armyman wrote: . We'll know when the first metal mini for the SoB goes OOP. That will be the deathknell.
Multiple metal minis for SOB have gone out of print. Several each year.
You're correct, but there has always been enough to allow you to create every codex unit. We are now hitting a tipping point: the Immo is gone and the next metal mini that goes OOP will create gaps in the list.
To completely end the faction in the game, GW would have to not only remove the models from their webstore, but also remove the rules from the Black Library website. That wouldn't even end the faction necessarily since the models and rules would continue to float around. Not only that, but with so many 3rd party models, you can easily build a plastic SoB army. Unless GW issues an edict that the rules are no longer valid or 8th edition is so wildly different than what came before, we could just continue to play an unsupported faction. How different is that really from what's going on today.
The end of official support is the death knell; the dreaded fate of the Squats Yes, no GW police are going to come into your house and seize your minis or wipe the Internet clean of references to SoB. But, it's not hard to see a future where Sisters are removed from the webstore entirely as their line of available minis dwindles.
It's all speculation right now, but when the radio goes silent, voices will fill the silence. Maybe the Immo shows up on the website tomorrow and we can have a good chuckle at my silliness for suggesting otherwise!
The end of official support is the death knell; the dreaded fate of the Squats Yes, no GW police are going to come into your house and seize your minis or wipe the Internet clean of references to SoB. But, it's not hard to see a future where Sisters are removed from the webstore entirely as their line of available minis dwindles.
It's all speculation right now, but when the radio goes silent, voices will fill the silence. Maybe the Immo shows up on the website tomorrow and we can have a good chuckle at my silliness for suggesting otherwise!
But it goes beyond the models. The rules would have to be pulled as well. If GW is offering rules and no models, that means someone else will be profiting from the sale of alternate models. That's one of the few things that GW has shown an unwillingness to tolerate.
It's even easier to pull the Sisters codex off the shelf than other codexes, isn't it? A few clicks with a mouse button by the BL website admin and it's gone.
Its an electronic intellectual property with almost no cost to them to fix or change it. So There is no bonus for them to cancel it. Its a product they can continue to "support" with little effort. I see no reason to tick off an enormous chunk of people when you can sort of quietly just give them some formations at some point and call it a day. No big production runs need be done and they already know you can get the models elsewhere so why not let another company do it for a while until they actually have something solid to offer on the Sisters of Battle side? I think its a no lose for them to leave it in play.
Jancoran wrote: Its an electronic intellectual property with almost no cost to them to fix or change it. So There is no bonus for them to cancel it. Its a product they can continue to "support" with little effort. I see no reason to tick off an enormous chunk of people when you can sort of quietly just give them some formations at some point and call it a day. No big production runs need be done and they already know you can get the models elsewhere so why not let another company do it for a while until they actually have something solid to offer on the Sisters of Battle side? I think its a no lose for them to leave it in play.
Are we both talking about the same company? Games workshop, right? If they don't offer the models for sale, it doesn't exist anymore.
For what it's worth, I brought this up at my GW store last week.
The staffer said it wasn't a terrible sign... if there is a release on the calendar, including way down the line, they make an effort to deplete stock on hand. They don't want to have to eat whatever they couldn't sell through, so they're letting it dwindle; that's why they didn't recast the whole line of multiple poses last time around, just the minimum models to build an army. He figured if they are relaunching the old models in plastic, it would probably require new molds to be made (the others are 20+ years old). If there are new models in the pipeline, they'll want to launch them to an empty shelf if they can sell through what they've got, and it will need to be timed with other releases.
He said philosophically they don't intend to repeat what they did with the Squats (of course, they are a business-- anything could happen, bottom line, etc.), and emphasized that the mention in the recent Blood Angels canon is a very good sign. His inference is that they are on the development calendar somewhere in the future. He wouldn't go so far as to say versatile plastics, flyers, formations, etc... but that would be the trend. Not sure what to make of it all, but I'll keep playing them. I've got about 2000 points with a winning record and a lot of work to do on them, so I'll just keep painting and dispensing the Emperor's justice until something changes.
Back to Jancoran's idea though, we should try to get a good showing at the same tournament. I made it to 20 overall at the LVO last year, but one person doing it will be written off a an aberration.
MacPhail wrote:For what it's worth, I brought this up at my GW store last week.
The staffer said it wasn't a terrible sign... if there is a release on the calendar, including way down the line, they make an effort to deplete stock on hand. They don't want to have to eat whatever they couldn't sell through, so they're letting it dwindle; that's why they didn't recast the whole line of multiple poses last time around, just the minimum models to build an army. He figured if they are relaunching the old models in plastic, it would probably require new molds to be made (the others are 20+ years old). If there are new models in the pipeline, they'll want to launch them to an empty shelf if they can sell through what they've got, and it will need to be timed with other releases.
Anything is possible, this is the great and mysterious GW, after all. But the Immo was not at the top of my list for things that needed redesigned.
PanzerLeader wrote:Back to Jancoran's idea though, we should try to get a good showing at the same tournament. I made it to 20 overall at the LVO last year, but one person doing it will be written off a an aberration.
Start a thread or Facebook group and start getting some commitments! I'd commit, but I have the double drawbacks of both not being willing to travel for a tournament and not being a particularly great tactical mind. Besides, I have a reputation to uphold, and I'd hate for some of you to get to know me and realize I'm not an donkey-cave
Well it certainly would be MORE worthwhile to go if we had a posse.
I just think that would be an incredibly fun idea. I would ACTUALLY bother going to one of these majors if we could adequately represent the Sisters of Battle at it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PanzerLeader wrote: Back to Jancoran's idea though, we should try to get a good showing at the same tournament. I made it to 20 overall at the LVO last year, but one person doing it will be written off a an aberration.
BTW: 20th is totally respectable, but people need to see several do it.
One of the things about these tournament standings is that so much of it is just opportunity. It simply is true that there ARE more Space Marine factions present to knock out the would be challengers. So they will always appear near the top just by dent of their numbers. The Eldar are kind of an abberation because until the Wraith Knight was officially and truly broken (Gargantuan? Really guys?) after the Wave serpent had been truly broken before that (seriously guys?) who was doing anything with Eldar really?
But with 15 Adepta Sororitas Generals it gives us more opportunities to knock out the competition and that will naturally place more of us top side but more critically, we simply have more chances and will appear more frequently than ever and that might make a few people take notice of what we are doing.
I dunno. I'm serious. I would totally posse up. So let's get some kind of a vote going on who WOULD do this IF we got ten people to commit? Maybe we can go straight to the organization that runs it and say "hey look, would you be down for making sure these players got tickets if we can ensure that the Adepta Sororitas get represented 15 times?".
Its called an "enabling excuse." Get with the program.
But I like Jancoran's idea of targeting the BAO for a showing. I've played several Frontline events now and all have been worth the time, money, and travel. Who all would be tentatively interested?
Sadly It's completely out of the realm of possibility for me to make any major event as much fun as the idea sounds.
The pessimistic side of me says that despite any tourney showing GW will do whatever the heck GW wants to do, that seems to be their business model after all.
The optimistic side of me however wishes any of you gathering together for a tourney the best of luck and wishes you the top 15 positions to prove that sister players are present and worth catering to.
Either way I'm equally torn on the recent news of the oop immo kit as being a sign of exciting news to come as much as it's a bad omen for the future of our beloved sisters. GW has been such a tease with this army to date that I no longer know what to think.
The tournament group sounds cool, the only thing really stopping me is 1. the cross country trip, 2. I'm not THAT good, and 3. the fact that at least one of you is scratching your head over who I am. Best of luck for what ever group you get together though!
On a related note though, I'm looking at the new Valkyrie/vendetta formation for my sisters. In part because I don't have drop pods, but still want to try my sisters air mobile. (I already have three Valkyries and two vendettas.)
This isn't pointed out, but roughly:
Two retributer squads in Valkyries,
Dominions in repressors,
5 girl squads in repressors and vendettas
command squad 2/multimelta (or regular melta) in a vendetta
leaving one free Valkyrie.
Does this seem doable? It's more expensive points wise than drop pods, and can't come on first turn, but the flyers add their own fire-power and provide some AA fire. Plus the formation helps mitigate a bad scatter. (If I'm remembering correctly.)
Mmmpi wrote:The tournament group sounds cool, the only thing really stopping me is 1. the cross country trip, 2. I'm not THAT good, and 3. the fact that at least one of you is scratching your head over who I am. Best of luck for what ever group you get together though!
On a related note though, I'm looking at the new Valkyrie/vendetta formation for my sisters. In part because I don't have drop pods, but still want to try my sisters air mobile. (I already have three Valkyries and two vendettas.)
This isn't pointed out, but roughly:
Two retributer squads in Valkyries,
Dominions in repressors,
5 girl squads in repressors and vendettas
command squad 2/multimelta (or regular melta) in a vendetta
leaving one free Valkyrie.
Does this seem doable? It's more expensive points wise than drop pods, and can't come on first turn, but the flyers add their own fire-power and provide some AA fire. Plus the formation helps mitigate a bad scatter. (If I'm remembering correctly.)
Don't let relative skill levels bother you. The seeding always works that you play at least 66% of your games against players of roughly equal skill. If we go in an organized group, there will be t-shirts and good "team building" events (alcohol imbibing optional but recommended). You make the weekend an event worth the trip.
I like the flyer idea. Make sure you get some kind of reserve manipulation in there as well as something durable to survive a turn of shooting.
deviantduck wrote:I'll see you in the finals at LVO, Panzerleader.
Less and less Sisters are staying in stock, I'm not a fan.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry, on an unrelated note:
Here is my 7th edition codex for Adepta Sororitas/Sisters of battle.
It has the return of the Redemptionists as well as Martyrs as well as 2 new Special characters (Though they have been referenced in the fluff before)
It contains a Decurion/Gladius strike force type formation to keep the Sisters up to date.
It is an update to one I posted here a few months ago and incorporates a lot of the feed back from that endeavor.
It also includes a completely reworked Faith system.
So... maybe we can get a group to NOVA 2016? I missed the last two being in the wrong country, but I brought the angry nuns to ATC this year and I'm all about t shirts.
deviantduck wrote: If all goes well i'll be doing LVO, Adepticon, BAO, and NOVA next year. As well as any small ITC tourney within 10 hours of St Louis.
A lot would have to go well for me, as Im on the west coast, to make that tour. But I suppose if I started saving now I might be able to.
So we're looking at myself, Jancoran, and Deviant as a starting core? Maybe talljosh depending on venue. I might have to start an FB group to organize this then.
PanzerLeader wrote: So we're looking at myself, Jancoran, and Deviant as a starting core? Maybe talljosh depending on venue. I might have to start an FB group to organize this then.
I'm super down for NOVA, LVO/BAO/west coast would be a bit of a stretch, I grew up in CA but I'm gone 6+ months every year for work so traveling across the country might not go over too well with my wife.
So we're talking about organizing for one of the following:
Adepticon 2016 (March in the Chicago area)
BAO 2016 (traditionally a July event in the SF/Oakland area)
NOVA 2016 (traditionally Labor Day in Washington D.C.)
LVO 2017 (traditionally February in Vegas)
The goal is to get lots 10+ AS players in force. I recommend joining the FB group so we can get a more focused discussion rolling. I will definitely make sure we have kick ass shirts for wherever we go.
So we're talking about organizing for one of the following:
Adepticon 2016 (March in the Chicago area)
BAO 2016 (traditionally a July event in the SF/Oakland area)
NOVA 2016 (traditionally Labor Day in Washington D.C.)
LVO 2017 (traditionally February in Vegas)
The goal is to get lots 10+ AS players in force. I recommend joining the FB group so we can get a more focused discussion rolling. I will definitely make sure we have kick ass shirts for wherever we go.
Well I mean we can organize for multiple of them too. I dont see a good reason why we cant use it as a hub for getting Sisters of Battle players to move in hordes together. Twould be very cool.
PanzerLeader, permission is permission, forgiveness isn't guaranteed. I got permission for ATC and it was like eight days before being gone for another six months. So NOVA I can definitely do, Adepticon is a maybe, and the best coast is a probably not for me.
Headed to the Facebook group now. Stoked to see this come to life, it would be awesome to get a bunch of SoB players together.
Working on some Sob Lists, but at the same time, I'd be very tempted to use my Gladius instead.... (dohhh) Nah, If I made it out, I would run sisters regardless... Just need to playtest a bunch more and find a better list.
We should post a few lists up to see what we are working with!
Hey guys I just wanted to share my army and list here and then ask a small question. So my 500 point list is:
Canoness, Rosarius, Eviscerator
BSS, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Immo
BSS, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Immo
Retributors, Heavy Boltersx4
This has been a fun list to play with and has done quite well for me against the other local small lists but I'm considering some options to expand upon it. I was looking at possible allies and was maybe thinking of throwing in some assassins to get me to 750. Anyone have any opinion on this? I was thinking perhaps a Vindicare and then adding a girl to each squad to max out the transport cap of the immo and possibly some upgrades to squeak out to 750. I know number of bodies will be an issue at that point but I'm relunctant to try and find more SoB models cause they get very expensive fast. Any thoughts? And I know some of you guys have been sharing your beautiful army shots on here so I figured I'd throw mine in too, more pics are on my project log linked in my sig if you want to see more. Thank you in advance for your advice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Celestine is godly at low points levels.
Swapping the canoness for Celestine and getting a bastion with some more girls for your ret squad would be pretty nasty for most opponents. If you have extra points, grab some seraphim who are pretty okay at low points levels.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Celestine is godly at low points levels.
Swapping the canoness for Celestine and getting a bastion with some more girls for your ret squad would be pretty nasty for most opponents. If you have extra points, grab some seraphim who are pretty okay at low points levels.
I second two exorcists. They add a ton of value for a measly 250 points.
Another vote for two exorcists, if you're willing to pick up the models (or an acceptable counts-as, I see a lot of whirlwinds). I actually don't like the exorcist too much, just due to the random number of shots per turn, but I can't deny they're very powerful when you're not rolling 1's constantly. Especially at that level of points, just their potential is enough to force your opponent to take notice of them. I personally love the model, but it's a royal pain to put together and comes with no instructions at all.
Thank you for the advice everyone. I had considered looking at exorcists, I was looking at converting the Space marine Stalker tank, as it looks pretty cool and has 6 barrels to show 6 possible exorcist shots, into a couple as I'm really not a fan of the pipe organ model (sorry fans, it's just not to my tastes).
I would love to run seraphim however their cost is quite high (as are all of the SoB models that I'm trying to avoid buying now, still hoping for plastic one day). But if a good deal comes up on ebay or kijiji I may consider it.
As for changing my cannoness to a Celestine I'm going to hold off on that for now. While I think running a living saint would be cool I just don't want to buy models to replace what I already have as opposed to getting things to grow the army.
I know melta doms are fantastic. I managed to scrounge up 2 but I'm still two short. It also appears that the immo kit is gone and I only have the two, it's a shame because I do love the immo kit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thank you for the compliments on my force btw, I'm fairly satisfied with them, they look good on the tabletop. Of course they aren't award winning by any stretch but it's what I can do for now.
Inevitable_Faith wrote: Thank you for the advice everyone. I had considered looking at exorcists, I was looking at converting the Space marine Stalker tank, as it looks pretty cool and has 6 barrels to show 6 possible exorcist shots, into a couple as I'm really not a fan of the pipe organ model (sorry fans, it's just not to my tastes).
I would love to run seraphim however their cost is quite high (as are all of the SoB models that I'm trying to avoid buying now, still hoping for plastic one day). But if a good deal comes up on ebay or kijiji I may consider it.
As for changing my cannoness to a Celestine I'm going to hold off on that for now. While I think running a living saint would be cool I just don't want to buy models to replace what I already have as opposed to getting things to grow the army.
I know melta doms are fantastic. I managed to scrounge up 2 but I'm still two short. It also appears that the immo kit is gone and I only have the two, it's a shame because I do love the immo kit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thank you for the compliments on my force btw, I'm fairly satisfied with them, they look good on the tabletop. Of course they aren't award winning by any stretch but it's what I can do for now.
Cost is going to be a constant struggle as a Sisters player. The great thing about metal models is that as long as they're intact, they're easy to strip and start all over again, so eBay auctions are less of a gamble than with plastic or resin armies.
Although they no longer sell Immolator kits, buying an Exorcist kit will also get you the Immo sprue. Since you need Exos to build your army, you'll still have parts left over to convert basic Rhinos into Immos. Might be something to consider for the near future while the Exos are still available on the GW store.
Also, your army is beautiful. Great work and it's always awesome to see people taking the time to paint their army as they go
Thank you very much for your insight and kind words armyman. It's a very fun army to paint, you get the best of cloth textures and metal armor all in one model. I'll be keeping an eye on ebay to see if anything juicy pops up but this will definitely be a slow burn army as I have other army projects on the go so adding too much more will likely be in the event that a good deal drops in my lap.
A Canoness with the Mantle of Ophelia and a Rosarius makes a good, safe bet for your Warlord while you send Celestine off to assassinate 3+ or lower enemies. So for bigger games, Celestine doesn't actually invalidate your existing HQ.
I don't have my phone with me at the moment. The mantle of Ophelia is the eternal warrior relic correct? or is it the re-roll armour saves relic? I always jump around between those two, never sure which one would be best. It's situational I suppose, depending on the AP of your opponents weapons.
Mantle of Ophelia gives EW, Cloak of St. Aspira gives the rerolls. In my experience the Mantle is better, but as you say it's situational.
I face Space Wolves a lot, so rerolls don't help much. Failing even a single reroll means I'm smushed and I rarely get to take my armor save. So I get the 4+ Rosarius save, or a 6+ rerollable SoF save, and failure means death. With Rosarius and EW I take the 4+ but have to fail three before I'm dead. I'll take that every time.
If I was against orks or something else with a lot of no or high AP dice coming at me, I'd probably say the rerollable 3+ is best
Yeah that's my view of it too, depending on the opponent one may be better than the other. For a TAC list though EW is never a bad thing to have. I'll definitely be looking into adjustments to fit it in. Thanks everyone.
The Mantle of Ophelia and a Rosarius are an auto-take on a Cannoness imo. If you can get her into combat alongside a Priest (with the Litanies of Faith so you can't fail the War Hymn check) she's absurdly tanky for her stat line and cost (even if you factor in the cost of the Priest). A re-rollable 4+ with EW can go a long way.
A Cannoness built like that with an Eviscerator, and some Priests buddies also make a great plug and play into allied units. Particularly effective with Guard blobs or Space Marines, to provide either cheap or tough ablative wounds respectively.
GoonBandito wrote: The Mantle of Ophelia and a Rosarius are an auto-take on a Cannoness imo. If you can get her into combat alongside a Priest (with the Litanies of Faith so you can't fail the War Hymn check) she's absurdly tanky for her stat line and cost (even if you factor in the cost of the Priest). A re-rollable 4+ with EW can go a long way.
A Cannoness built like that with an Eviscerator, and some Priests buddies also make a great plug and play into allied units. Particularly effective with Guard blobs or Space Marines, to provide either cheap or tough ablative wounds respectively.
For the price of a Canoness (65) with Mantle (25), Rosarius (15) and Eviscerator (30), you could just take Celestine and get a lot more utility.
GoonBandito wrote: The Mantle of Ophelia and a Rosarius are an auto-take on a Cannoness imo. If you can get her into combat alongside a Priest (with the Litanies of Faith so you can't fail the War Hymn check) she's absurdly tanky for her stat line and cost (even if you factor in the cost of the Priest). A re-rollable 4+ with EW can go a long way.
A Cannoness built like that with an Eviscerator, and some Priests buddies also make a great plug and play into allied units. Particularly effective with Guard blobs or Space Marines, to provide either cheap or tough ablative wounds respectively.
For the price of a Canoness (65) with Mantle (25), Rosarius (15) and Eviscerator (30), you could just take Celestine and get a lot more utility.
Until she insta dies to S6. Don't get me wrong, Celestine is generally a far better option but if you are taking a Canoness for whatever reason that's how you build her since it gives you something that Jacobus or Celestine don't have.
I'd never shell out for an Eviscerator on a Canoness. It's just way too many points. Power Mauls are almost as effective unless you're sending her against vehicles.
GoonBandito wrote: The Mantle of Ophelia and a Rosarius are an auto-take on a Cannoness imo. If you can get her into combat alongside a Priest (with the Litanies of Faith so you can't fail the War Hymn check) she's absurdly tanky for her stat line and cost (even if you factor in the cost of the Priest). A re-rollable 4+ with EW can go a long way.
A Cannoness built like that with an Eviscerator, and some Priests buddies also make a great plug and play into allied units. Particularly effective with Guard blobs or Space Marines, to provide either cheap or tough ablative wounds respectively.
For the price of a Canoness (65) with Mantle (25), Rosarius (15) and Eviscerator (30), you could just take Celestine and get a lot more utility.
Until she insta dies to S6. Don't get me wrong, Celestine is generally a far better option but if you are taking a Canoness for whatever reason that's how you build her since it gives you something that Jacobus or Celestine don't have.
Furyou Miko wrote: I'd never shell out for an Eviscerator on a Canoness. It's just way too many points. Power Mauls are almost as effective unless you're sending her against vehicles.
Eh, AP4 just bounces off most things. At least at AP2 you can actually threaten something with her. I think its worth it.
Furyou Miko wrote: I'd never shell out for an Eviscerator on a Canoness. It's just way too many points. Power Mauls are almost as effective unless you're sending her against vehicles.
Eh, AP4 just bounces off most things. At least at AP2 you can actually threaten something with her. I think its worth it.
Then one would think a Power Axe would be better off. S5 instead of S6, and doesn't have armourbane, but is still AP2. Just 10pts cheaper (iirc)
Power Axe only makes you S4 (since Sisters are S3 base), which makes you struggle to wound things I find. Priests help with War Hymns giving you re-rolls To Wound, but I still find the Eviscerator more useful. Plus its a huge-arse chainsword which wins in my book
GoonBandito wrote: Power Axe only makes you S4 (since Sisters are S3 base), which makes you struggle to wound things I find. Priests help with War Hymns giving you re-rolls To Wound, but I still find the Eviscerator more useful. Plus its a huge-arse chainsword which wins in my book
That's right. I always think that Power Axes give +2S and Power Mauls give +1. Whoops!
My reasoning for the eviscerator is in line with GoonBandito. In my mind the canoness will never necessarily be a melee beast but atleast with the eviscerator she holds a better chance. S4 on at I1 is underwhelming even if it is AP2. S6 is much more reliable to wound and even allows you to threaten MC, I've killed a hive tyrant and carnifex before. Armourbane is also awesome, one could substitute with a melta bomb but I had one match vs. Astra militarum where the multiple attacks of the evescerator allowed me to blow up two squadded tanks in one charge. More attacks vs vehicles, even at S6+armourbane is more reliable in my mind rather than a single S8 meltabomb since most vehicles are 10 on the rear. Even if you roll poorly on the vehicle damage table and don't explode it you can still HP it out.
I say if you can spare the 10 extra points to take the eviscerator over the power axe+melta bomb then it's points well spent. You know assuming you run a canoness anyways, which it seems many think is not good points-wise. YMMV but I like my Canoness, she's done some awesome stuff once she makes her 4+ rosaries saves.
My canoness doesn't do CC.
Mine is more of a support character. I play her up to a 1000 points. She is equiped with 2 bp and the book of st. lucius. for 70 points she gives a nice bonus while I spent the points I saved on my units
Interesting idea, I'm curious as I don't have my phone here with me for the dex but can she be equipped with dual hand flamers or inferno pistols? Maybe one of each?
I like mine with dual Inferno Pistols, riding with the melta-'minions.
GoonBandito wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote: I'd never shell out for an Eviscerator on a Canoness. It's just way too many points. Power Mauls are almost as effective unless you're sending her against vehicles.
Eh, AP4 just bounces off most things. At least at AP2 you can actually threaten something with her. I think its worth it.
See, if you're going to go for a stabby Canoness, I don't think you should go for half measures. If she's stabby, she should have at the very least two CCWs, rerolls to wound from a Priest and +1 attack from a nearby Sacred Standard. With I4, that way she's smacking around Marines simultaneously and dropping them to I1 left, right and centre, which gives the rest of the blob or the Repentia or whatever she's riding with a fighting chance.
I find concussive to be a mere afterthought of a rule in general. It has no effect on things that have only 1W and most things I fight that have multiple wounds in combat are either:
A) Going to trounce me with or without being I1
B) Already I1 due to power fist or equivalent
C) Already lower I such as fighting Necron Overlord.
I think in all my games I've only ever seen concussive affect one of my opponents. It's kind of up there with soul blaze for me as a mediocre USR.
Furyou Miko wrote: I like mine with dual Inferno Pistols, riding with the melta-'minions.
GoonBandito wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote: I'd never shell out for an Eviscerator on a Canoness. It's just way too many points. Power Mauls are almost as effective unless you're sending her against vehicles.
Eh, AP4 just bounces off most things. At least at AP2 you can actually threaten something with her. I think its worth it.
See, if you're going to go for a stabby Canoness, I don't think you should go for half measures. If she's stabby, she should have at the very least two CCWs, rerolls to wound from a Priest and +1 attack from a nearby Sacred Standard. With I4, that way she's smacking around Marines simultaneously and dropping them to I1 left, right and centre, which gives the rest of the blob or the Repentia or whatever she's riding with a fighting chance.
Oh, I always make her stabby. I just prefer her to be S6 AP2 rather than S5 AP4 and +1 Attack.
RE concussive - it's an awesome rule to have on ranged weapons (and is yet another reason why Grav Guns are so stupidly good). Knocking say a Wraithknight down to I1 before you charge something in is huge - an Imperial Knight might actually win combat against a Wraithknight then lol. It's less useful on Melee weapons sure, but its not like its a poke in the eye with a burnt stick. Space Marine Captains with the Burning Blade, Monstrous Creatures of almost all types, Imperial Assassins and Eldar/Dark Eldar are all high initiative so making them attack at the same time as or even after you is still nice. A kitted out Cannoness with Priest support is tanky enough to survive multiple rounds in a challenge vs all those things too, so Concussive does come into play.
I suppose part of my issue with using concussive is my two main sources for getting it, my canoness and my dark apostle, never have EW so when they go against big scary things that they'd like to drop to I1 they tend to get splatted before it becomes useful. I'll start putting EW on my canoness but there's really no way for me to make my poor Dark Apostle have it. Burning brand of Skalathrax is what he's best with for now then IMO.
New Sisters of Battle player here -- main army is Orks. Trying to understand the pulse of this codex i.e. what units are considered good, bad, and ugly... is there a page or series of pages in this thread where all of that is addressed? Tough to read thru all 177 pages...
Nairul wrote: New Sisters of Battle player here -- main army is Orks. Trying to understand the pulse of this codex i.e. what units are considered good, bad, and ugly... is there a page or series of pages in this thread where all of that is addressed? Tough to read thru all 177 pages...
Our special characters are both very good. Celestine always, Uriah a bit more situational.
Our Troops are basic, but hardy. Min-sized squads with melta and flamer/HF in Immolators are standard.
Our FA are extrememly good. Doms with all meltas in Immos are terrifying. Min-sized Seraphim with hand flamers are great harassing units.
Avoid our Elites when list building Our HS is strong and fills the long-ranged fire support role very well. Either 3 Exorcists or 2 Exorcists and Retributors are both great choices.
Nairul wrote: New Sisters of Battle player here -- main army is Orks. Trying to understand the pulse of this codex i.e. what units are considered good, bad, and ugly... is there a page or series of pages in this thread where all of that is addressed? Tough to read thru all 177 pages...
Our special characters are both very good. Celestine always, Uriah a bit more situational.
Our Troops are basic, but hardy. Min-sized squads with melta and flamer/HF in Immolators are standard.
Our FA are extrememly good. Doms with all meltas in Immos are terrifying. Min-sized Seraphim with hand flamers are great harassing units.
Avoid our Elites when list building Our HS is strong and fills the long-ranged fire support role very well. Either 3 Exorcists or 2 Exorcists and Retributors are both great choices.
Thanks for the breakdown. I've read similar assessments elsewhere, so its nice to hear someone on Dakka corroborate. Six questions:
1) Since you seem to be okay with min-sized squad... When considering dedicated transports, should Immolator always get priority over Sororitas Rhino then? I was nervous that the Immolator doesnt have any Fire Points... so I guess the strategy is to let opponent destroy the Immolator and emergency disembark?
2) Lots of people say the only way to make Sisters competitive is to Ally them with another imperium army. Confirm/Deny? If confirm, who are best allies?
3) Based on your assessment, it looks like the Purge Squadron and Angelic Host formations could be competitive. Are either must-have?
4) What about Canoness and Sororitas Command Squad?
5) What about Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave?
6) Everyone says Priests are good. Should an 1850 Sisters list include the maximum 5 priests?
Nairul wrote: New Sisters of Battle player here -- main army is Orks. Trying to understand the pulse of this codex i.e. what units are considered good, bad, and ugly... is there a page or series of pages in this thread where all of that is addressed? Tough to read thru all 177 pages...
Our special characters are both very good. Celestine always, Uriah a bit more situational.
Our Troops are basic, but hardy. Min-sized squads with melta and flamer/HF in Immolators are standard.
Our FA are extrememly good. Doms with all meltas in Immos are terrifying. Min-sized Seraphim with hand flamers are great harassing units.
Avoid our Elites when list building Our HS is strong and fills the long-ranged fire support role very well. Either 3 Exorcists or 2 Exorcists and Retributors are both great choices.
Thanks for the breakdown. I've read similar assessments elsewhere, so its nice to hear someone on Dakka corroborate. Six questions:
1) Since you seem to be okay with min-sized squad... When considering dedicated transports, should Immolator always get priority over Sororitas Rhino then? I was nervous that the Immolator doesnt have any Fire Points... so I guess the strategy is to let opponent destroy the Immolator and emergency disembark?
2) Lots of people say the only way to make Sisters competitive is to Ally them with another imperium army. Confirm/Deny? If confirm, who are best allies?
3) Based on your assessment, it looks like the Purge Squadron and Angelic Host formations could be competitive. Are either must-have?
4) What about Canoness and Sororitas Command Squad?
5) What about Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave?
6) Everyone says Priests are good. Should an 1850 Sisters list include the maximum 5 priests?
1) Rhinos should be the weapon of choice. You can fire out of them which plays big early on when you want to maximize firepower and make the enemy work to get at yours. There is nothing he Immolator does that a guy popping out the top of a rhino cant do when you're done surging on the enemy.
2) Deny. Having said that: good allies, Drop Space Marines do and I suppose Skittari.
3) No idea whether they make a difference.
4) No one likes the command squad. Canoness is fine.
5) Conclave is amazeballs.
6) i dont max Priests out but three does the trick usually for a blob squad.
Thanks for the breakdown. I've read similar assessments elsewhere, so its nice to hear someone on Dakka corroborate. Six questions:
1) Since you seem to be okay with min-sized squad... When considering dedicated transports, should Immolator always get priority over Sororitas Rhino then? I was nervous that the Immolator doesnt have any Fire Points... so I guess the strategy is to let opponent destroy the Immolator and emergency disembark?
2) Lots of people say the only way to make Sisters competitive is to Ally them with another imperium army. Confirm/Deny? If confirm, who are best allies?
3) Based on your assessment, it looks like the Purge Squadron and Angelic Host formations could be competitive. Are either must-have?
4) What about Canoness and Sororitas Command Squad?
5) What about Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave?
6) Everyone says Priests are good. Should an 1850 Sisters list include the maximum 5 priests?
My take:
1) Rhinos for Battle Sister Squads, Immolators for Dominions Squads. The reason for Immos over Rhinos on Dominions squads is that you'll want to be shooting all 4 Meltaguns to make the most use out of the Act of Faith, which means you're gonna have to disembark anyway. Unless points are so tight you can't afford them, you may as well take an Immolator for the extra firepower in that case. Of course if Repressors are available to you (from Imperial Armour 2: Second Edition), use them where you have the points instead - they solve the problem of having to disembark to get your full firepower from the Dominions since Repressors have the extra fireports.
2) Sisters are a perfectly viable (if somewhat limited in composition) army by themselves. But they also ally well with any other Imperium of Man army. Imperial Knights are the most obvious, bringing you a Super Heavy Walker, but Space Marines and Guard offer things that Sisters don't have (namely strong melee, fliers, heavy armour and/or bulk expendable bodies in the case of Guard). Drop Pods filled with Melta Dominions or Heavy Flamer Retributors are also a very nice thing.
3) Unfortunately those Formations are technically Apocalypse Only. Sucks, since they're hardly over the top compared to current formations but that's the breaks. If your gaming group allows to you use them, the Purge Squadron could be interesting. I've never used them though.
4) The poor Canoness is a much maligned choice. I like using her, mostly because I think her model is kickarse, but also because she can be surprisingly tough in close combat when backed up by Priests. She is most certainly fighting an uphill battle compared to other choices and codexs though. Sororitas Command Squads can be a sneaky way to get a unit of Heavy Flamers or Heavy Bolters into a list when your Heavy Support slots are full, albeit they miss out on the Rending Act of Faith. But the most important use of a Sororitas Command Squad is to field the greatest model GW has ever made - Sister Dialogus.
5) Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclaves are good, namely for the combination of Crusaders tanking for Death Cult Assassins supported by Priests. I personally prefer to run those models allied in from Codex: Inquisition in a Henchmen Warband though since then you also get Inquisitors with all the neat tools they bring, as well as Land Raiders to assault out of.
6) Priests are an amazing force multiplier for close combat - if you plan on using a squad for Close Combat, get a Priest in there. Preferably two of them in fact for multiple War Hymns, with one carrying the Litanies of Faith relic so you auto-pass the War Hymn checks. This applies to allies too - Guard Blobs or Space Marine CC units get huge buffs from Priests. You could use them just to add Fearless to squads so you don't have to worry about Morale checks, but I personally find that just gets a little too pricey - far better to mechanise up in transports imo.
Nairul wrote: New Sisters of Battle player here -- main army is Orks. Trying to understand the pulse of this codex i.e. what units are considered good, bad, and ugly... is there a page or series of pages in this thread where all of that is addressed? Tough to read thru all 177 pages...
Our special characters are both very good. Celestine always, Uriah a bit more situational.
Our Troops are basic, but hardy. Min-sized squads with melta and flamer/HF in Immolators are standard.
Our FA are extrememly good. Doms with all meltas in Immos are terrifying. Min-sized Seraphim with hand flamers are great harassing units.
Avoid our Elites when list building Our HS is strong and fills the long-ranged fire support role very well. Either 3 Exorcists or 2 Exorcists and Retributors are both great choices.
Thanks for the breakdown. I've read similar assessments elsewhere, so its nice to hear someone on Dakka corroborate. Six questions:
1) Since you seem to be okay with min-sized squad... When considering dedicated transports, should Immolator always get priority over Sororitas Rhino then? I was nervous that the Immolator doesnt have any Fire Points... so I guess the strategy is to let opponent destroy the Immolator and emergency disembark?
2) Lots of people say the only way to make Sisters competitive is to Ally them with another imperium army. Confirm/Deny? If confirm, who are best allies?
3) Based on your assessment, it looks like the Purge Squadron and Angelic Host formations could be competitive. Are either must-have?
4) What about Canoness and Sororitas Command Squad?
5) What about Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave?
6) Everyone says Priests are good. Should an 1850 Sisters list include the maximum 5 priests?
1) Rhinos should be the weapon of choice. You can fire out of them which plays big early on when you want to maximize firepower and make the enemy work to get at yours. There is nothing he Immolator does that a guy popping out the top of a rhino cant do when you're done surging on the enemy.
2) Deny. Having said that: good allies, Drop Space Marines do and I suppose Skittari.
3) No idea whether they make a difference.
4) No one likes the command squad. Canoness is fine.
5) Conclave is amazeballs.
6) i dont max Priests out but three does the trick usually for a blob squad.
Thanks. For Dedicated Transports, you seem to have a different assessment than the_Armyman who seems to prefer Immolators... who's in the right!?
Nairul wrote: New Sisters of Battle player here -- main army is Orks. Trying to understand the pulse of this codex i.e. what units are considered good, bad, and ugly... is there a page or series of pages in this thread where all of that is addressed? Tough to read thru all 177 pages...
Our special characters are both very good. Celestine always, Uriah a bit more situational.
Our Troops are basic, but hardy. Min-sized squads with melta and flamer/HF in Immolators are standard.
Our FA are extrememly good. Doms with all meltas in Immos are terrifying. Min-sized Seraphim with hand flamers are great harassing units.
Avoid our Elites when list building Our HS is strong and fills the long-ranged fire support role very well. Either 3 Exorcists or 2 Exorcists and Retributors are both great choices.
Thanks for the breakdown. I've read similar assessments elsewhere, so its nice to hear someone on Dakka corroborate. Six questions:
1) Since you seem to be okay with min-sized squad... When considering dedicated transports, should Immolator always get priority over Sororitas Rhino then? I was nervous that the Immolator doesnt have any Fire Points... so I guess the strategy is to let opponent destroy the Immolator and emergency disembark?
2) Lots of people say the only way to make Sisters competitive is to Ally them with another imperium army. Confirm/Deny? If confirm, who are best allies?
3) Based on your assessment, it looks like the Purge Squadron and Angelic Host formations could be competitive. Are either must-have?
4) What about Canoness and Sororitas Command Squad?
5) What about Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave?
6) Everyone says Priests are good. Should an 1850 Sisters list include the maximum 5 priests?
1) I prefer Rhinos for my BSS squads so I can fire out the top hatch. I find that is more valuable to me at 35 points than an extra heavy weapon but no fire points at 70 points.
2) You don't strictly speaking need allies. That said, I prefer to ally in Astra Militarum to add some barrage elements into the army to cover a gap in the Sisters codex. Love the Artillery Company formation out of Mont'ka. Blood Angels or regular marines to get some pods and a proper assault element can also be good.
3) Nope. Definitely not a requirement. Between myself and Jancoran, I think we've won over 50 tournament games this edition with Sisters and placed consistently in the top 10% without ever fielding either.
4) Canoness can be a good utility HQ. Command squads are not worth it.
5) Battle Conclave is great but you need to build a list that supports it.
6) Depends on the army. I never use them because I run MSU and they don't provide a ton of value. If you have blob squads they are great.
Nairul wrote: Thanks. For Dedicated Transports, you seem to have a different assessment than the_Armyman who seems to prefer Immolators... who's in the right!?
Neither is wrong, they are both good. That being said, the Repressor is better than both of them, if your local area allows Forgeworld. Repressors take sisters from good to great.
I prefer Immos over Rhinos because I'd rather fire a twin-linked MM at a greater range than be forced to roll up to within 6-12" to fire a single melta. Also, an Immo's MM is useful from Turn 1 and, unlike a Rhino, is a legitimate threat rather than just a nuisance.
I don't know how revolutionary of a tactic it is, but I prefer a Beta or Gamma strike tactic. Turn 1 is maneuver if I think an opponent is going to sit back, or it's a less agressive 6" redeploy to counter incoming threats. Using reserves manipulation, I aim to get my Doms in all at once. Then on Turn 2 or 3, when I'm in position and the enemy is within 12", I go all in. 6" move on Immos, everyone dismounts, burn my Acts of Faith, Celestine breaks cover from her squad, and I look to cripple the enemy in a single turn of shooting or utterly crush a single flank.
Thanks. For Dedicated Transports, you seem to have a different assessment than the_Armyman who seems to prefer Immolators... who's in the right!?
UNless youre going to hang back with the Dominion which you typically aren't. the Immolator is either moving in which case snap firing OR its only moving 6" because it has rroved in which case two can fire out of it (better than twin linked) OR dropping people off and firing (but that's 1 of the three options and the tank probably isn't going to be allowed more than one shot in a game where you're moving up).
Thanks. For Dedicated Transports, you seem to have a different assessment than the_Armyman who seems to prefer Immolators... who's in the right!?
UNless youre going to hang back with the Dominion which you typically aren't. the Immolator is either moving in which case snap firing OR its only moving 6" because it has rroved in which case two can fire out of it (better than twin linked) OR dropping people off and firing (but that's 1 of the three options and the tank probably isn't going to be allowed more than one shot in a game where you're moving up).
so Rhinos is my OPINION.
I think in the end you can't really go wrong with either. I tend to run 4-6ish immolators in my lists, 2-3 dominion squads with 2-3 squads of battle sisters. I tend to disembark the sisters to shotgun 1 thing all to hell(and then die) and let my tank go do it's own thing, which you can't do in a rhino. Basically I figure the if i'm within 12" anyway I'm getting out regardless and with an immolator that gives me 3 melta shots instead of 2. TL is not as good as 2 melta but it does help mitigate the snapshooting and the longer range means more target choice even if you only have a 31% chance to hit.
In the end I think it comes down to which thing you want to die first. I choose for my infantry to die and tanks to live so I pick Immospam. If you're strategy requires more longevity for your troops rhinos are the better choice.
Shandara wrote: Melta-Immolators also give a squad a chance to kill 2 targets when coming out of outflank reserve.
Sure, but that's mitigated somewhat by the fact that you MUST expose the Dominion to do more and there are a lot of times when you wont wish to... I don't know... It's a judgement call obviously but I got away from immolators and I vascilate back and forth on it but I mostly like Rhinos. With the same extra point you save you can do damage elsewhere if that is the concern, right?
Shandara wrote: Melta-Immolators also give a squad a chance to kill 2 targets when coming out of outflank reserve.
This is why pretre converted me to Repressors. Better survivability for the girls and the tank can still contribute against infantry and light vehicles.
Shandara wrote: Melta-Immolators also give a squad a chance to kill 2 targets when coming out of outflank reserve.
This is why pretre converted me to Repressors. Better survivability for the girls and the tank can still contribute against infantry and light vehicles.
3 problems here, 1. unless you spend 20 hours a day scouring the web for them, you'll be lucky to even get a chance to bid on a repressor 2. It also costs ALLLL the money, and 3. Most tournaments will only let you take 1 due to forgeworld stuff being unique 0-1
Shandara wrote: Melta-Immolators also give a squad a chance to kill 2 targets when coming out of outflank reserve.
This is why pretre converted me to Repressors. Better survivability for the girls and the tank can still contribute against infantry and light vehicles.
3 problems here, 1. unless you spend 20 hours a day scouring the web for them, you'll be lucky to even get a chance to bid on a repressor 2. It also costs ALLLL the money, and 3. Most tournaments will only let you take 1 due to forgeworld stuff being unique 0-1
1 and 2. Convert them from Immolators. It is what a lot of people are doing now.
3. Most tournaments I go to are ITC and allow them as many as you want.
Shandara wrote: Melta-Immolators also give a squad a chance to kill 2 targets when coming out of outflank reserve.
This is why pretre converted me to Repressors. Better survivability for the girls and the tank can still contribute against infantry and light vehicles.
3 problems here, 1. unless you spend 20 hours a day scouring the web for them, you'll be lucky to even get a chance to bid on a repressor 2. It also costs ALLLL the money, and 3. Most tournaments will only let you take 1 due to forgeworld stuff being unique 0-1
1 and 2. Convert them from Immolators. It is what a lot of people are doing now.
3. Most tournaments I go to are ITC and allow them as many as you want.
Huh, I guess it IS just adepticon with the FW rule. I thought it got carried from ITC too. My mistake.
As for conversions, I hate converting things. for STRICT wysiwyg I have a tendency to just glue guns to people foreheads. If that's a skill you have though the repressor is pretty darn solid.
Shandara wrote: Melta-Immolators also give a squad a chance to kill 2 targets when coming out of outflank reserve.
This is why pretre converted me to Repressors. Better survivability for the girls and the tank can still contribute against infantry and light vehicles.
3 problems here, 1. unless you spend 20 hours a day scouring the web for them, you'll be lucky to even get a chance to bid on a repressor 2. It also costs ALLLL the money, and 3. Most tournaments will only let you take 1 due to forgeworld stuff being unique 0-1
I really like the Ramshackle versions. If I was building a new sisters army, that's the way I would go. Regarding Repressors: I'm surprised no one has made a simple resin conversion kit for the Rhino yet.
Personally I use Immolators, all of them the multimelta variety, but if I had more vehicles available I'd probably run a mix. I only own 3 Immolators, so until they're restocked I'm stuck with that. Dominions I like in the immolator so that there's that one last shot if they failed to bring down something I really needed to kill, or a chance to kill something else. Besides that I generally put boots on the ground by turn 3 at the latest anyway, so after that point I've still got some guns rolling around rather than empty boxes.
As far as forgeworld is concerned, my local shop allows no forgeworld whatsoever so repressors aren't an option for me either way. Doesn't bother me as I prefer running a pure codex force with no allies, even if it does put limitations on my army.
Welcome to the club! Always glad to have a new sisters player. Even if the dialogues still haunts my dreams.
Saint Celestine, Dominons and Exorcists. With a little bit of Rets and Seraphim thrown in. Only take minimum basic squads, IMO. 5 girls, a combi, a flamer, a heavy flamer in a MM Immolator. That's the way always run them and i like it but find your own thing.
I say Immolators for the basic troops, Repressors for everything else (Dominions and Repressors) If your group doesnt allow forge world I would say Immolators for everyone.
Avoid: Cannoness, Command squads, the entire elite section.
As much as i like repentia i don't personally use them, that roll is best filled by Battle conclave. That being said, repentia with a priest will murder almost any knight they meet if they can get there.
Celtic Strike wrote: Welcome to the club! Always glad to have a new sisters player. Even if the dialogues still haunts my dreams.
Saint Celestine, Dominons and Exorcists. With a little bit of Rets and Seraphim thrown in. Only take minimum basic squads, IMO. 5 girls, a combi, a flamer, a heavy flamer in a MM Immolator. That's the way always run them and i like it but find your own thing.
I say Immolators for the basic troops, Repressors for everything else (Dominions and Repressors) If your group doesnt allow forge world I would say Immolators for everyone.
Avoid: Cannoness, Command squads, the entire elite section.
As much as i like repentia i don't personally use them, that roll is best filled by Battle conclave. That being said, repentia with a priest will murder almost any knight they meet if they can get there.
Thanks for your response. I'd appreciate feedback on this 1850 list, which I've tried to design as a well-balanced army.
Troops (465pts) Battle Sister Squad (155pts)
2x Battle Sister, Battle Sister with Flamer, Battle Sister with Heavy Flamer
Immolator
Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Multi-Melta
Sister Superior
Bolt Pistol, Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs
Battle Sister Squad (155pts)
2x Battle Sister, Battle Sister with Flamer, Battle Sister with Heavy Flamer
Immolator
Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Multi-Melta
Sister Superior
Bolt Pistol, Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs
Battle Sister Squad (155pts)
2x Battle Sister, Battle Sister with Flamer, Battle Sister with Heavy Flamer
Immolator
Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Multi-Melta
Sister Superior
Bolt Pistol, Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs
Fast Attack (450pts) Dominion Squad (170pts)
4x Dominion with Meltagun
Dominion Superior
Bolt Pistol, Boltgun
Immolator
Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Multi-Melta
Dominion Squad (170pts)
4x Dominion with Meltagun
Dominion Superior
Bolt Pistol, Boltgun
Immolator
Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Multi-Melta
Seraphim Squad (110pts)
2x Seraphim, Seraphim with Two Hand Flamers, Seraphim with Two Hand Flamers
Seraphim Superior
Chainsword, Bolt Pistol, Melta Bombs
Heavy Support (375pts) Exorcist (125pts)
Exorcist (125pts)
Exorcist (125pts)
Imperial Knights: Codex (2015) (AdM Adeptus Mechanicus War Convocation)
Imperial Knights: Codex (2015) (Imperial Knights part) (425pts)
Knight Crusader (War Conv.) (425pts)
Rapid-fire Battle Cannon w/ Heavy Stubber, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod
Looks fine to me, but I would suggest a few minor tweaks:
Perhaps think about using two regular Flamers rather than a Flamer/Heavy Flamer on the Battle Sister Squads. My reasoning for this is that due to how the shooting sequence changed in 7th Edition, you now have to fully resolve the shooting of each different weapon types separately. Meaning models you kill from the Heavy Flamer mean less potential hits you can cause with the template from the regular Flamer. Two regular Flamers you will get to place both templates at once, and 'double up' on hits. It's a trade off between more possible hits, or having 1 better Strength/AP on of the templates I guess.
Also maybe consider a Combi-Flamer on the Superiors if you want a Combi-Weapon, rather than a Combi-Melta. With all the other high strength shooting I'd feel reasonably confident in dropping them in favour of more template goodness, especially since the Preferred Enemy Act of Faith synergies nicely with weapons that can cause lots of hits in the first place (ie template weapons).
Seraphim Superior should have two Bolt Pistols rather than Chainsword/Bolt Pistol since you'll still get the extra attack in melee but also another bolt pistol shot in the shooting phase.
I think that Knight Crusader is meant to be in an Oathsworn Knight Detachment too btw, not an Adeptus Mechancicus War Convocation (that's the formation that includes a bunch of Ad Mech and Skitarii units all cross sharing rules and stuff lol). Possibly think about using a Knight Warden or Knight Paladin instead too, since I personally think a Strength D Melee is worth more than some extra shooting (plus they're cheaper). It gives you a better option against death star style units with good invulnerable saves anyway.
GoonBandito wrote: Looks fine to me, but I would suggest a few minor tweaks:
Perhaps think about using two regular Flamers rather than a Flamer/Heavy Flamer on the Battle Sister Squads. My reasoning for this is that due to how the shooting sequence changed in 7th Edition, you now have to fully resolve the shooting of each different weapon types separately. Meaning models you kill from the Heavy Flamer mean less potential hits you can cause with the template from the regular Flamer. Two regular Flamers you will get to place both templates at once, and 'double up' on hits. It's a trade off between more possible hits, or having 1 better Strength/AP on of the templates I guess.
That does not apply to templates. The rulebook reads: "If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template type, resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above, determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template. Once the number of hits from all templates has been determined, roll To Wound as normal."
@ Nairul: Its a good list. If you dropped the Seraphim and some of the random upgrades (i.e. Superior Combi-Meltas, Melta bombs, etc) you could fit in a third unit of dominions. I'd do this personally. Celestine is a small enough model that she doesn't need an escort. Just use LOS blocking terrain and vehicles to hide her until she's close enough to engage.
I'm also of the opinion now that for my BSS squads, the flamer is not worth it. They often end up in spots where I need them to engage a light vehicle/transport while they camp objectives. I've switched to a melta gun/heavy flamer load out and its been working really well for me. Just something to consider. It makes those squads more versatile which is something I want in my few OBSEC units that end up flung to winds covering objectives.
PanzerLeader wrote: @ Nairul: Its a good list. If you dropped the Seraphim and some of the random upgrades (i.e. Superior Combi-Meltas, Melta bombs, etc) you could fit in a third unit of dominions. I'd do this personally. Celestine is a small enough model that she doesn't need an escort. Just use LOS blocking terrain and vehicles to hide her until she's close enough to engage.
That's an interesting take, but I'm not sure if I'm convinced. Why then do most lists running Celestine put her in a minimum squad of Seraphim and Deep Strike them?
PanzerLeader wrote: @ Nairul: Its a good list. If you dropped the Seraphim and some of the random upgrades (i.e. Superior Combi-Meltas, Melta bombs, etc) you could fit in a third unit of dominions. I'd do this personally. Celestine is a small enough model that she doesn't need an escort. Just use LOS blocking terrain and vehicles to hide her until she's close enough to engage.
That's an interesting take, but I'm not sure if I'm convinced. Why then do most lists running Celestine put her in a minimum squad of Seraphim and Deep Strike them?
I think you'll find it's down to preference. Doms are probably one of the best units in the game, point-for-point in their role. However, Seraphim are pretty damn good, too. And they help to mix things up a bit in FA if you don't like rollin' Doms all day, err day. However, if you do go with Seraphim, do not DS them. I deploy them like normal, and then use them as area denial. Not many infantry units want to risk getting within that 20" bubble of templatey death. Celestine can stay with them either to tank some firepower or stay safe, and then break off to deal with a completely different threat as needed.
PanzerLeader wrote: @ Nairul: Its a good list. If you dropped the Seraphim and some of the random upgrades (i.e. Superior Combi-Meltas, Melta bombs, etc) you could fit in a third unit of dominions. I'd do this personally. Celestine is a small enough model that she doesn't need an escort. Just use LOS blocking terrain and vehicles to hide her until she's close enough to engage.
That's an interesting take, but I'm not sure if I'm convinced. Why then do most lists running Celestine put her in a minimum squad of Seraphim and Deep Strike them?
I think you'll find it's down to preference. Doms are probably one of the best units in the game, point-for-point in their role. However, Seraphim are pretty damn good, too. And they help to mix things up a bit in FA if you don't like rollin' Doms all day, err day. However, if you do go with Seraphim, do not DS them. I deploy them like normal, and then use them as area denial. Not many infantry units want to risk getting within that 20" bubble of templatey death. Celestine can stay with them either to tank some firepower or stay safe, and then break off to deal with a completely different threat as needed.
Hmm that puts things into perspective. In truth I <3 Doms and would love to run more of them. I felt the need to run Seraphim just because I thought they were a necessary bubble for Celestine. Now that you guys are telling me I don't even need Seraphim for her, it's making me wonder if Celestine is even the proper HQ choice for this list? Would a cheap Canoness be more appropriate?
You can run the cheap cannonness or Celestine equally well. If you take Celestine, you get a bully assault unit that clears objectives of MEQs and provides some decent counter attack options.
With the cannonness you get points to upgrade other units and buff the rest of your force. You can have decent shenanigans by rolling on the command table traits and buffing your army from inside a rhino.
Personally I run Celestine by herself. Her melee abilities help against fast, shooty units that she can catch and run down. She also adds nice assault phase options. I've never run an escort for her and she's done just fine. I even held a green tide at bay with her for four full game turns once between barrage shooting and her hit and run abilities.
Concerning multiple templates from different template weapons. I think the rules are unfortunately very ambiguous and I do see the reasoning behind both interpretations but the wording that makes me lean towards heavy flamers and flamers working "at the same time" is the wording that Nairul quoted. I know the argument could be made that it's templates separated by weapon type as ShaneTB stated but with the whole "generic vs specific" thing you could also argue this rule supercedes the "pick a weapon part. Truthfully this really comes down to at what point the template rules jump into the sequence of shooting rules.
Either way having a flamer and heavy flamer fire together is hardly OP, you still roll to wound with their respective strength so it doesn't make either of them stronger. And on a personal note I find it hard to "forge the narrative" that my flamer sister would politely stand by and wait for her Heavy flamer sister to roast some baddies before she fires her flamer. No opponent I've ever fought has contested this interpretation of the rules and I make sure to bring it up before the match because it's part of my list and I don't want any confusion about it when I fire. All my opponents so far have even agreed with this interpretation stating it sounds logical and fair.
At any rate it's a good discussion to bring up with your regular opponents and see what people think. Not everyone is out to knock down your army and deny you any possible advantage you may be able to get.
Inevitable_Faith wrote: Concerning multiple templates from different template weapons. I think the rules are unfortunately very ambiguous and I do see the reasoning behind both interpretations but the wording that makes me lean towards heavy flamers and flamers working "at the same time" is the wording that Nairul quoted. I know the argument could be made that it's templates separated by weapon type as ShaneTB stated but with the whole "generic vs specific" thing you could also argue this rule supercedes the "pick a weapon part. Truthfully this really comes down to at what point the template rules jump into the sequence of shooting rules.
The Template rule doesn't say anything that overrides the general shooting sequence. What appears to have happened is that the Template rule was copied and pasted from the 6th Edition rulebook, where you did resolve all weapons at once, and probably not clarified to reflect 7th Edition's new shooting sequence of resolve all weapons of 1 type at a time.
As a comparison, the Blast rule also mentions how you resolve multiple shots with the Blast rule in a similar way to Templates - in that you do each shot one at a time and add it all up at the end. But again, you still have to abide by the Shooting Sequence of selecting and resolving differently named weapons. Otherwise you would have say a Leman Russ Eradicator being able to fire its Nova Cannon (a large blast) and both of its Plasma Cannon sponsons (small blasts) all at once. That's clearly not how it works now in 7th Edition.
And on a personal note I find it hard to "forge the narrative" that my flamer sister would politely stand by and wait for her Heavy flamer sister to roast some baddies before she fires her flamer. No opponent I've ever fought has contested this interpretation of the rules and I make sure to bring it up before the match because it's part of my list and I don't want any confusion about it when I fire. All my opponents so far have even agreed with this interpretation stating it sounds logical and fair.
At any rate it's a good discussion to bring up with your regular opponents and see what people think. Not everyone is out to knock down your army and deny you any possible advantage you may be able to get.
Well its no different from your Boltgun Sisters standing around while your Bolt Pistol Superior takes a shot, or the Boltgun having to wait to fire until all the Heavy Bolters have shot. It's a game with abstract rules, so of course these things 'weird' things are going to come up. Not to get all YMDC, but the reason they changed the shooting sequence to work like this in 7th Edition was because you could exploit (deliberately or accidentally) the wounding mechanic in 6th Edition to inflicts wounds on models outside of a weapon's range - Say you had a Plasma Pistol firing alongside Boltguns. You rolled all your To Wounds, then told the opponent to start with the Boltgun wounds. They removed models as appropriate until they got to the Plasma Pistol wound, which is now getting assigned to a model that was standing outside the Plasma Pistol's range - too bad if that was some important model you placed at the back of the squad that suddenly cops a Plasma round to the face from way outside a Plasma Pistol's range. Having to completely resolve shooting of each weapon type stopped this, because now when you get to the Plasma Pistol you can't even fire it in the first place since you're out of range (ie shoot the Pistol first...). Did Template and Blast weapons get a bit of an indirect nerf from this? Sure, but that's the breaks.
I don't have my rulebook with me right now but isn't there a statement in there that a weapon can't assign wounds to anything outside it's range? That means your plasma pistol example couldn't happen in this edition, the shot would be lost cause the bolt gun rounds took out all the models in its range. The other option would then be to have the pistol shot resolve first and then have the boltgun rounds resolve after since they have the longer range, assuming you didn't rapid fire them of course lol.
The same could be applied to templates. Say you have a unit of five models you fire at. 3 of the five are in range of your templates and with multiple templates you net 6 hits, you roll to wound and get 4 wounds. Assuming the first three models fail their armor save the 4th wound is lost because it can't be assigned to a model within the weapons range. If one model made its save then you'd have the extra wound as a safety net to get a second chance to kill it anyways. The exploit you explained could have been fixed without nerfing templates and blasts ability to net a generous amount of hits. It's not like flamers are OP anyways and need something like this to tone them down, especially considering the whole purpose of template and blast is to inflict multiple hits on bunched models, this really hurts the main purpose of these weapons. The wording on invisibility really hurts their intended use as well.
The reason why weapon groups hurts templates more than any other weapon though is that in one interpretation firing the first template reduces the effectiveness of every template after it, with the arbitrary caveat that as long as all the templates share the exact same weapon name then they can stack wounds because reasons, whereas templates of different names can not. Same shooting phase, same unit firing, same template, different weapon name so you get penalized. This makes no sense to me. Same goes for blast weapons, why shouldn't they stack as long as they are being fired from the same unit? Weapon groups doesn't hurt RoF weapons as strongly because you will always get your number of shots regardless, a heavy bolter always shoots 3 times. The only time a different weapon group would hurt the heavy bolter is if the regular bolters killed the enemy unit before you could fire the HB, in which case who cares? A dead unit is a dead unit.
I fully understand what you're saying though GoonBandito, though I don't remember reading the blast template stuff you mention except under the barrage rules, I'll have to re-check my core book, I've never used multiple different blast weapons in one unit before. As I said I understand the argument for both sides and I believe they both have validity to them, stacking the templates is just the interpretation my gaming group has taken because it makes sense to us and we haven't found that it breaks the game at all. Nothing wrong if your group does it differently at all.
TLDR: I understand fuzzy/generalized rules writing and screw-ups of copy/paste rules not interacting properly with new rules (GW books are rife with these all over the place) but it doesn't make sense to me that you should be punished on your possible number of hits with a template or a blast weapon simply because the weapon has a different name than the other weapon in the unit that also fires template or blast. if they had the same name then they'd get more hits for no other reason than that they share a name.
Btw I mean none of this in a harsh tone GoonBandito, I respect your opinion on this matter and am just really curious about this matter and how it works as I feel it greatly effects how one would be a sisters army, particularly the BSS. WHat do you think GW's RAI on this subject is? Do you think this is an oversight on their part?
Inevitable_Faith wrote: Btw I mean none of this in a harsh tone GoonBandito, I respect your opinion on this matter and am just really curious about this matter and how it works as I feel it greatly effects how one would be a sisters army, particularly the BSS. WHat do you think GW's RAI on this subject is? Do you think this is an oversight on their part?
lol its fine I would prefer it if you could fire all template weapons at once, but unfortunately the rules are just not written like that. However, I personally don't think it matters too much in the grand scheme of things with regards to Battle Sister squads. Ok, so maybe you can't stack a flamer/heavy flamer on each other but that just means you get to save 5pts and take another regular flamer instead. Or swap to a more jack of all trades squad and take a Heavy Flamer/Meltagun.
As far as GW's RAI, I have no doubt that they didn't even think of the implication for different template/blast weapons when they changed the shooting sequence rules for 7th. To be kinda fair, I can't think off too many other units that would find themselves equipped with multiple, different template weapons anyway - Blood Angels still had their old codex when 7th came out, so couldn't take Heavy Flamers on Tactical Squads. Imperial Guard Hellhounds/Bane Wolves and Guard Veteran/Command Squads are probably the only ones I can think of.
PanzerLeader wrote: You can run the cheap cannonness or Celestine equally well. If you take Celestine, you get a bully assault unit that clears objectives of MEQs and provides some decent counter attack options.
With the cannonness you get points to upgrade other units and buff the rest of your force. You can have decent shenanigans by rolling on the command table traits and buffing your army from inside a rhino.
Personally I run Celestine by herself. Her melee abilities help against fast, shooty units that she can catch and run down. She also adds nice assault phase options. I've never run an escort for her and she's done just fine. I even held a green tide at bay with her for four full game turns once between barrage shooting and her hit and run abilities.
I like to run celestine with seraphim where possible. seraphim are solid, they have enough shots to roast light infantry and hurt TEQs and mass Krak grenades do reasonably well against rear 10 vehicles.
Celestine is still great by herself though. I did a tournament yesterday, she was 1 FNP roll away from toasting an invisible 3 wound Marneus Calgar.
While the Flamer/Heavy Flamer rules debate has been informative, I've decided to just run Heavy Flamer/Melta Gun as suggested, with a combi-melta on my superior. =)
PanzerLeader wrote: You can run the cheap cannonness or Celestine equally well. If you take Celestine, you get a bully assault unit that clears objectives of MEQs and provides some decent counter attack options.
With the cannonness you get points to upgrade other units and buff the rest of your force. You can have decent shenanigans by rolling on the command table traits and buffing your army from inside a rhino.
Personally I run Celestine by herself. Her melee abilities help against fast, shooty units that she can catch and run down. She also adds nice assault phase options. I've never run an escort for her and she's done just fine. I even held a green tide at bay with her for four full game turns once between barrage shooting and her hit and run abilities.
I like to run celestine with seraphim where possible. seraphim are solid, they have enough shots to roast light infantry and hurt TEQs and mass Krak grenades do reasonably well against rear 10 vehicles.
Celestine is still great by herself though. I did a tournament yesterday, she was 1 FNP roll away from toasting an invisible 3 wound Marneus Calgar.
Seraphim are an ok unit. They just don't contribute to the overall army as much as a third unit of dominions the way I run my sisters. I don't need help with anti-infantry or light vehicles. I generally need the meltas to assist against MCs and GMCs/SHs. Between the 7 heavy flamer templates I normally run and the artillery tracks from my allied formation, Seraphim just don't have a place.
+1 Celestine solo. I've ran her with Seraphim but never really got much out of them; on her own she gets ignored and does damage, especially against players that don't know her capabilities. She's just a low cost, fast, nasty and hard hitting mini that can be hidden very easily and crush MEQs all day.
PanzerLeader wrote: You can run the cheap cannonness or Celestine equally well. If you take Celestine, you get a bully assault unit that clears objectives of MEQs and provides some decent counter attack options.
With the cannonness you get points to upgrade other units and buff the rest of your force. You can have decent shenanigans by rolling on the command table traits and buffing your army from inside a rhino.
Personally I run Celestine by herself. Her melee abilities help against fast, shooty units that she can catch and run down. She also adds nice assault phase options. I've never run an escort for her and she's done just fine. I even held a green tide at bay with her for four full game turns once between barrage shooting and her hit and run abilities.
I like to run celestine with seraphim where possible. seraphim are solid, they have enough shots to roast light infantry and hurt TEQs and mass Krak grenades do reasonably well against rear 10 vehicles.
Celestine is still great by herself though. I did a tournament yesterday, she was 1 FNP roll away from toasting an invisible 3 wound Marneus Calgar.
Seraphim are an ok unit. They just don't contribute to the overall army as much as a third unit of dominions the way I run my sisters. I don't need help with anti-infantry or light vehicles. I generally need the meltas to assist against MCs and GMCs/SHs. Between the 7 heavy flamer templates I normally run and the artillery tracks from my allied formation, Seraphim just don't have a place.
The main benefit is they increase the mileage you get out of Celestine, they SHREQ hordes and they are cheap compared to domis, 120ish to almost 200 for a kitted out domi squad. Makes them perfect for 1500 pts. 1850 I'd take 3 domi squads no doubt. I also only run 1 sister squad with flamers so the tacs/scouts murder is great.
Inevitable_Faith wrote: Btw I mean none of this in a harsh tone GoonBandito, I respect your opinion on this matter and am just really curious about this matter and how it works as I feel it greatly effects how one would be a sisters army, particularly the BSS. WHat do you think GW's RAI on this subject is? Do you think this is an oversight on their part?
lol its fine I would prefer it if you could fire all template weapons at once, but unfortunately the rules are just not written like that. However, I personally don't think it matters too much in the grand scheme of things with regards to Battle Sister squads. Ok, so maybe you can't stack a flamer/heavy flamer on each other but that just means you get to save 5pts and take another regular flamer instead. Or swap to a more jack of all trades squad and take a Heavy Flamer/Meltagun.
As far as GW's RAI, I have no doubt that they didn't even think of the implication for different template/blast weapons when they changed the shooting sequence rules for 7th. To be kinda fair, I can't think off too many other units that would find themselves equipped with multiple, different template weapons anyway - Blood Angels still had their old codex when 7th came out, so couldn't take Heavy Flamers on Tactical Squads. Imperial Guard Hellhounds/Bane Wolves and Guard Veteran/Command Squads are probably the only ones I can think of.
I'm fairly certain they don't think of the implications of more than a few of the rules they write. I had an issue with tonights game where we couldn't find any mention of the effects to passengers when a skimmer transport jinks, shouldn't that be something that would have been covered? At any rate these things are just stuff you gotta talk to with your gaming group. Going to a tournament I'm certain the tournament would have addressed the issue beforehand and posted their interpretation of it so you can build your list around this knowledge. In casual play hopefully you just have a great gaming group who's ok with making the rules work for everyone as best they can.
Totally off-topic btw but I thought it was a funny story to share anyways. Did a game with 4 friends tonight (3v2 3500 points a side) and so we ordered pizza. Pizza guy shows up and sees our models on the shelves and informs us he and a couple buddies play warhammer too. He wrote his number on the receipt for us to give him a call next time we play so hopefully he can get a game in too. You meet new players under the strangest circumstances sometimes lol.
I quite enjoy using Celestine as a tank for a Repetia squad. Sit her at the front of it, Look Out, Sir! anything that'll instant death her onto the Mistress, and laugh maniacally as everyone calls me insane for fielding Repentia.
That's... debatable. It's an Act of Faith, so you'd think it would. But the catch is, when you use it, she's dead, and so arguably not actually in the unit she was formerly attached to. IIRC she's not in it when she resurrects and has to explicitly move into coherency.
And as for RAI, I'm honestly not sure what they intended here. So you could play that one either way, I think, though maybe someone's caught a specific piece of wording I missed.
The honest truth about the whole Sisters as Allies thing is that no, the Sisters do not need allies to be competitive...
... but they are very good at making other armies more competitive.
A 497 point Allied Detachment of Sisters provides a ridiculous force multiplier in the form of Celestine, five Priests (one with Litanies), a throwaway ObSec squad and four scouting meltaguns.
If you throw an extra 40-75 points for a transport for the Dominions on there, it's even stronger... I don't know what other armies would put in a Repressor, but you can buy one for your compulsory BSS as well and let anything you like ride around in it (what else has enough special guns you'd want in a FAV13 box with 5-8 fire points though?)
Skitarii Rangers can take 3 Special Weapons per 10. Drive by's with 3 Arc Rifles would be pretty neato.
The big one is Devastator Centurions though. Imagine 3 White Scar's Grav Cents alongside an HQ with the Ignores Cover relic, driving around in an AV13 transport with enough Firepoints for them to all fire out...
Oh wait, its got the same rule as a Rhino in that it can't carry Bulky models, so no you can't! Stick with Inquisitorial Chimera's for Devastator Centurions lol.
So I have a question for you guys, how do you outfit your canoness? Because I played 2 games today experimenting with different canoness builds, and both times she was damn near useless. I gave her inferno pistols in both setups cause she was going with dominions and then I tried 2 different melee setups, 2 different relic set-ups and she just died without doing anything both times.
ERJAK wrote: So I have a question for you guys, how do you outfit your canoness? Because I played 2 games today experimenting with different canoness builds, and both times she was damn near useless. I gave her inferno pistols in both setups cause she was going with dominions and then I tried 2 different melee setups, 2 different relic set-ups and she just died without doing anything both times.
Well... Her Act of Faith is useful. The Eternal Warrior Relic is really a must for her. I would take her as a points saver if Celestine isn't your jam (and she should be your jam immediately).
She is probably best with a Power Maul. While this will be debated I am sure, she IS Init 4 which at least elevates hr to "not entirely useless" status in close combat. Her STR is a real detriment and so you have to compensate to even DO wounds. It seem to me a given that if she's fighting at all that she may not get a second chance to impact the fight and so I'd take my chances with Concussion dealing wounds so that maybe her sacrifice won't be in vain next round when the character she was trying to solo gets free to do its level best on the rest of the squad. Also, concussion at STR 5 can actually get a Wraith Knight to swing slower as an added bonu on subsequent turns. So while her Sergeant screams her death rattles, the Canoness can be busy maybe possibly saving folks for next round or at least giving them some attacks at the ame time worst case. So Power Maul with eternal Warrior would be my vote. Skip the pistol.
Never really got much mileage out of the Cannoness, Celestine and Jacobus are just awesome respectively, so I can't justify running her. Even kitted out she just hasn't been effective for me.
By the time you have spent points trying to make the Cannoness useful you have spent close to what Jackie Boy and Celestine cost and yet they are heads and shoulders better then a generic Cannoness. If you really want to take her bring a Aegis defense line with a quad gun and have her man it with BS 5 (plus you can park an exo or two behind it to get a cover save)
MrFlutterPie wrote: By the time you have spent points trying to make the Cannoness useful you have spent close to what Jackie Boy and Celestine cost and yet they are heads and shoulders better then a generic Cannoness. If you really want to take her bring a Aegis defense line with a quad gun and have her man it with BS 5 (plus you can park an exo or two behind it to get a cover save)
I used to do that when our meta went flyer heavy. It... wasn't as useful as I had hoped.
Another option I've found useful is a Bastion with quad gun for your Retributors to camp. If you have the gun sticking the Canoness there isn't a bad idea, if your set on bringing her.
I require Two Canoness's just because I like Dominion and take like 6 squads whenever possible. The Canoness is cheap enough to take for the CAD's. Voila. Instantly you have a beat-tastic amount of meltaguns and flamers to spread the cleansing love of the Emperor to all your harshest critics. Hehehe.
Inquisition Detachment:
Ordo Xenos w/ 3 Servo Skulls
hmm... Exorcists are cool... but.... More Dominion in Repressors? Even better.
As for six points... Meltabomb for sure.
Its just a preference for range really. I like the ability to put firepower out across multiple range bands and the 48" band of the exorcists complements the artillery and makes it easier to spread the board when I need to. Dominions are great, but I find the 12" range of the meltas limiting at times.
Inquisition Detachment:
Ordo Xenos w/ 3 Servo Skulls
hmm... Exorcists are cool... but.... More Dominion in Repressors? Even better.
As for six points... Meltabomb for sure.
Its just a preference for range really. I like the ability to put firepower out across multiple range bands and the 48" band of the exorcists complements the artillery and makes it easier to spread the board when I need to. Dominions are great, but I find the 12" range of the meltas limiting at times.
yip. Sounds good. aAnd sometimes they go off like a crazy popcorn maker so its pretty fun whjen that happens. When it doesnt...most expensive STR 8 shot ever. Lol.
Btw, In battlescribe you can't put a LH on a repressor. But I see Panzerleader do this in his lists. Is Battlescribe outdated?
@ERJAK:
About two pages back we had a long discussion about what works for whom. I use her as a cheap support character in small point games (up to a 1000 points)
I do this so I can spent more points on my units.
L1ttle wrote: Btw, In battlescribe you can't put a LH on a repressor. But I see Panzerleader do this in his lists. Is Battlescribe outdated?
@ERJAK:
About two pages back we had a long discussion about what works for whom. I use her as a cheap support character in small point games (up to a 1000 points)
I do this so I can spent more points on my units.
I mistakenly assumed any Sisters vehicle could buy upgrades off the vehicle equipment list in the Codex. Whoops. back to the drawing board.
I actually like the Canoness. Mine died for the first time last week, to Jaws of the World Wolf no less.
I always kit her with Eternal Warrior and a Rosarius, then I'll play around with weapons depending on points level and who I'm playing. Not to say I specifically list tailor, but I'll make different decisions if I'm playing a fluffy game vs more competitive. FWIW I think Inferno Pistols are hot garbage because melta is already short on range, I'm not going to take something even shorter. I'll pretty much always choose plasma over inferno, if I'm going with a powerful pistol on her.
I never put her with Dominions. They're a suicide squad, at least when I run them, and I'm not going to give up warlord for free on turn 1. I stick her with a regular Sisters squad, or when I'm forced to take Elites for certain scenarios/tournaments I'll stick her with whatever Elite choice I've made. She makes a great tank for Repentia, and on the few occasions that Celestians manage to do something she's actually pretty good there, but like I said generally her escorts are basic Sisters unless event rules dictate I have something else to choose from.
I will say that I like Celestine a lot, and if Jacobus wasn't so hideous I really like his rules, but for local events we're almost always restricted to no special/named characters and no forgeworld so I'm left with use a Canoness or don't play at all.
I don't like sticking her with regular Battle Sisters because they are WS3 which means there's a lot more incoming attacks that the Canoness has to deal with (assuming you were able to keep her out of a challenge so she can tank for the unit). WS4 is really the main reason why I run her with Celestians (lol).
Though lately I've been preferring to stick her and some Ministorum Priests in a Black Templar Crusader Squad. I don't normally play anything non-competitive, but giving a bunch of Marines re-rolls To Hit, Wound and Saves is pretty fun. The Marines act as her bodyguards while she dishes out the AP2 from her Eviscerator.
I'm trying to get my head around unit matchups and target priority and I think the Sororitas threadizens here can help. Since most of our lists are built around some pretty common core units, I'm interested to survey the players gathered here.
I find that there's a threshold where my confidence expires in committing a certain unit to a certain task. I think I know the basics... flame templates vs. open-topped or anything jinking, meltas vs. medium armor and MEQ/TEQ, etc. I think a great example is a recent game where I sent my melta Dominions against a unit of Centurions in cover. My opponent's reputation in our group was essentially "watch out for his grav-cents" and I'd never faced them before, so I sent what I thought was my toughest unit, my scouting melta Doms. But because the target was T5 with 2 wounds, I couldn't auto-kill them with S8 melta, and he snuffed my Doms and their transport before they took a single model off the board. Looking back, I maybe should have tried to grind those wounds off from a distance with Exorcists instead, or just abandon that objective and try to stay out of range. I find myself in similar situations regularly as a newer player... I don't make the right call as to where to commit my strength.
So I'm hoping people can help me create a rough sketch of "what goes where." What's the point of diminishing returns in terms of melta vs. AV? Do I always send melta Doms after AV12, but ignore AV 14 in favor of something more attainable? At what point should Exorcists target infantry instead of vehicles? How do MCs/GMCs fit into the equation? What about Acts of Faith and when (shooting vs. assault, at what range) to use them? What's the utility of Rending and Shred when it comes to Rets and Seraphim respectively?
My list is fairly predictable: F/HFBSS Rhino squads with lots of bolter shots. Melta Doms in MM Immos. HB Rets with Simulacrum. Seraphim with hand flamers and Celestine. Multiple Exorcists. Occasionally a Jacobus foot blob or a unit of HF Rets in a Rhino.
My opponents are most commonly Marines / Chaos Marines + Demons, followed by Tyranids, Eldar/Dark Eldar, and Tau, all with pretty conventional all-comers builds. Our group doesn't have Orks or Guard at the moment.
I'm hoping to craft some basic guidelines along the line of "against Army A, I send Unit X against Unit Y, unless they are absent or in cover, in which case I look for Unit Z or grab an objective." I know it isn't that simple and the answer is always "it depends," but when facing an unfamiliar force (Tyranids are essentially a mystery to me), I want to have at least a vague starting point. Thanks!
MacPhail wrote: I'm trying to get my head around unit matchups and target priority and I think the Sororitas threadizens here can help. Since most of our lists are built around some pretty common core units, I'm interested to survey the players gathered here.
I find that there's a threshold where my confidence expires in committing a certain unit to a certain task. I think I know the basics... flame templates vs. open-topped or anything jinking, meltas vs. medium armor and MEQ/TEQ, etc. I think a great example is a recent game where I sent my melta Dominions against a unit of Centurions in cover. My opponent's reputation in our group was essentially "watch out for his grav-cents" and I'd never faced them before, so I sent what I thought was my toughest unit, my scouting melta Doms. But because the target was T5 with 2 wounds, I couldn't auto-kill them with S8 melta, and he snuffed my Doms and their transport before they took a single model off the board. Looking back, I maybe should have tried to grind those wounds off from a distance with Exorcists instead, or just abandon that objective and try to stay out of range. I find myself in similar situations regularly as a newer player... I don't make the right call as to where to commit my strength.
So I'm hoping people can help me create a rough sketch of "what goes where." What's the point of diminishing returns in terms of melta vs. AV? Do I always send melta Doms after AV12, but ignore AV 14 in favor of something more attainable? At what point should Exorcists target infantry instead of vehicles? How do MCs/GMCs fit into the equation? What about Acts of Faith and when (shooting vs. assault, at what range) to use them? What's the utility of Rending and Shred when it comes to Rets and Seraphim respectively?
My list is fairly predictable: F/HFBSS Rhino squads with lots of bolter shots. Melta Doms in MM Immos. HB Rets with Simulacrum. Seraphim with hand flamers and Celestine. Multiple Exorcists. Occasionally a Jacobus foot blob or a unit of HF Rets in a Rhino.
My opponents are most commonly Marines / Chaos Marines + Demons, followed by Tyranids, Eldar/Dark Eldar, and Tau, all with pretty conventional all-comers builds. Our group doesn't have Orks or Guard at the moment.
I'm hoping to craft some basic guidelines along the line of "against Army A, I send Unit X against Unit Y, unless they are absent or in cover, in which case I look for Unit Z or grab an objective." I know it isn't that simple and the answer is always "it depends," but when facing an unfamiliar force (Tyranids are essentially a mystery to me), I want to have at least a vague starting point. Thanks!
Its a math probelm.
6 T5 wounds requires how many STR 8 AP 1 shots to reliably kill? Well you have to hit first. 5 out of 6 will kill so you probably need 7 hits. It takes about 11 shots to get 7 hits completely reliably. So you need to bring 11 meltas to the party. if they have COVER saves, say a 5+, the number goes up.
Your problem wasn't WHAT you brought. It was how many. We are an army without plasma so that is the reality. Thats why three Dominion squads in Rhinos is a winning proposition.
Your Exorcists can average 11 shots a round with three of them. So if you have three, that would also work eventually.
Your problem wasn't WHAT you brought. It was how many. We are an army without plasma so that is the reality.
That makes good sense. I do tend to run 2-3 Doms and 2 Exos... I feel like my collection is best suited for 1500, but we usually play 2k. I'm planning to add a White Scars grav biker contingent to add some speed and punch. This might be the best way ultimately to deal with Centurions. EDIT: I just posted this army list in the thread where I was getting some good advice on balancing the two forces: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/676644.page
I want to adapt a list for when my turn against the Tyranids comes up, but I'm not even sure what's called for. I know going after synapse is good, but beyond that I'm not sure if I should be hunting MCs with melta or flaming little bugs. Tau and Eldar are even more cryptic...
This has been a great thread, thanks all for contributing to it. I'm new to the Sisters of Battle (not to 40k) after having dug up my old 4th ed witch hunters codex/collection again. The scene I play in is competitive and I'd like to run with the big kids while using the Bolter Babes. I realize there's a certain amount of fluff involved in selecting sisters, which is awesome, but for you tournament players, when you look at the gladius strike force which does the exact same thing sisters do for cheaper with better stats and doctrines, what do you do to bring the game back into your favor?
What follows is an attempt to use allies to maximize the strength of the sisters, i.e. cheap power armor mechanized obsec units by combining it with allies which provide combat power, ignores cover fire, and long range fire power.
I am interested in Panzerleader's list based on the amount of AV 13 found there in (also I really recommend trying to get one of those wyverns up to a basilisk. You have not lived until you drop an ignores cover earthshaker shell on a raven wing command squad). Do you find it worth doubling the cost of a rhino when your sides/rear are no better off? This is especially relevant in the days of D/grav/warp spider/scat-bike spam.
If you (you all, of course) find AV 13 to be the tipping point (AV 12 chimeras for 65 are not so hot), do you think saturating is a good idea? In addition, there is 0 CC power in your list aside from Celestine, who's a pretty fragile little flower thanks to no EW. My point is this: The adamantine lance or Baronial court gives you 18 AV 13 HP with a ward (either 3+ or a 4+ rr) plus combat power and either long range firepower or some extra hulk-smash.
So 15 points for upgrades on the BSS, or 20 if you drop the book, netting a flamer per squad. I suppose you could cut one repressor squad in favor of either a fancy knight or bigger sisters squads/better guns, but packing 3 knights and 6 AV 13 tanks seems kinda nice.
If you drop a knight, you can pick up 2 melta dom squads in repressors, which might be solid as it gives your opponent something to deal with on T1 aside from the knights.
Another thought I had (sorry for being so wordy...) is the vindicator from the SM and DA dex. In units of 3, they can sac 2 shots to nab an appocalyptic s10 ap2 ignores cover shot, which is beast mode. The problem is that they can't use this if one is shaken/stunned. Enter the Armored Task Force and Hammer of Caliban, both of which let you mitigate the fragility of the vindicators by either ignoring shaken/stunned or sticking a land raider (ride for the conclave?) in the front to soak the hits. So you run up the field with doms, the caliban squadron, and buckets of repressors, you have lots of LoS blocking vehicles, many ignores cover threats, and a shocking amount of AV 13.
Lastly, would a typhoon missile launcher Ravenwing support squadron: fast, hardy, long range S8 AP3 missiles.
I like what you're trying, but I think you need more punch. I would drop a couple of the BSS repressor squads and try to get doms in there somewhere. Also, you need special weapons for the squads.
Ether wrote: This has been a great thread, thanks all for contributing to it. I'm new to the Sisters of Battle (not to 40k) after having dug up my old 4th ed witch hunters codex/collection again. The scene I play in is competitive and I'd like to run with the big kids while using the Bolter Babes. I realize there's a certain amount of fluff involved in selecting sisters, which is awesome, but for you tournament players, when you look at the gladius strike force which does the exact same thing sisters do for cheaper with better stats and doctrines, what do you do to bring the game back into your favor?
What follows is an attempt to use allies to maximize the strength of the sisters, i.e. cheap power armor mechanized obsec units by combining it with allies which provide combat power, ignores cover fire, and long range fire power.
I am interested in Panzerleader's list based on the amount of AV 13 found there in (also I really recommend trying to get one of those wyverns up to a basilisk. You have not lived until you drop an ignores cover earthshaker shell on a raven wing command squad). Do you find it worth doubling the cost of a rhino when your sides/rear are no better off? This is especially relevant in the days of D/grav/warp spider/scat-bike spam.
If you (you all, of course) find AV 13 to be the tipping point (AV 12 chimeras for 65 are not so hot), do you think saturating is a good idea? In addition, there is 0 CC power in your list aside from Celestine, who's a pretty fragile little flower thanks to no EW. My point is this: The adamantine lance or Baronial court gives you 18 AV 13 HP with a ward (either 3+ or a 4+ rr) plus combat power and either long range firepower or some extra hulk-smash.
So 15 points for upgrades on the BSS, or 20 if you drop the book, netting a flamer per squad. I suppose you could cut one repressor squad in favor of either a fancy knight or bigger sisters squads/better guns, but packing 3 knights and 6 AV 13 tanks seems kinda nice.
If you drop a knight, you can pick up 2 melta dom squads in repressors, which might be solid as it gives your opponent something to deal with on T1 aside from the knights.
Another thought I had (sorry for being so wordy...) is the vindicator from the SM and DA dex. In units of 3, they can sac 2 shots to nab an appocalyptic s10 ap2 ignores cover shot, which is beast mode. The problem is that they can't use this if one is shaken/stunned. Enter the Armored Task Force and Hammer of Caliban, both of which let you mitigate the fragility of the vindicators by either ignoring shaken/stunned or sticking a land raider (ride for the conclave?) in the front to soak the hits. So you run up the field with doms, the caliban squadron, and buckets of repressors, you have lots of LoS blocking vehicles, many ignores cover threats, and a shocking amount of AV 13.
Lastly, would a typhoon missile launcher Ravenwing support squadron: fast, hardy, long range S8 AP3 missiles.
So I'll try to cover as much as possible:
(1) I like double wyverns because it lets me spread the artillery across the board. The orders range is really tight (12", 6" to get the effect of the relic) and the wyverns aren't reliant on orders. With a basilisk at almost double the cost, I'd be forced to clump the tanks very tightly to get consistent ignores cover on both which makes it hard to spread the board against mobile assault armies or avoid multiple hits from blast markers. Wyverns also tend to consistently generate more hits against small units and I've found the ignore cover S10 is good enough against Ravenwing command squads when combined with the other ignore cover fire power in the list.
(2) AV13 is great. Immunity to S6 fire on the front is huge, especially against lists like tyranid FMCs and scat bike spam when you need to survive turn one and they deploy first. I was already paying for Immolators before so it was a marginal upgrade cost. The extra 3 firepoints are also huge to maximize the use of special weapons.
(3) My list thrives on denying scout/infiltrate moves and then destroying from long range. I've got six units that shoot significant firepower at 48"+ and lots of melta for when the enemy closes in. Celestine is more than sufficient for bullying non-assault specialists and cleaning up units like warp spiders.
(4) I personally have never lost to a list with more than 1 knight. There might be some luck involved in that, but mostly I don't think you can properly support more than one knight at 1850 and below. I also think 1 knight provides plenty of options to your list and is a decent investment by itself. If you go to a single knight and drop one BSS squad, you'd be able to add in 3 dominion squads in repressors, 1 exorcist and add specials to your BSS squads with some points to spare still. That would actually net you two additional AV 13 platforms and some heavy flamers/melta guns to clear away drop podding marines.
Hey guys, so, not *exactly* tactics, but a fellow Sisters player won best painted at LVO last weekend, and since this is the Sisters thread, wanted to send a well deserved congrats to Obi and his amazing, amazing SoB army. Here is a link:
talljosh85 wrote: Hey guys, so, not *exactly* tactics, but a fellow Sisters player won best painted at LVO last weekend, and since this is the Sisters thread, wanted to send a well deserved congrats to Obi and his amazing, amazing SoB army. Here is a link:
Alright, so I've drawn a Tau opponent for my 2000 point game this weekend. I'm not sure what his army looks like exactly... my first time against Tau this edition, and my first game against this opponent (he's known to me as a guy who fields a tough army, is up on his rules, doesn't pull his punches, and is a fair-minded and good-natured opponent). I know his army is pretty up-to-date, he's got the new Tau books, and I've seen plenty of suits across the room during other games (but not, I think, the big Lord of War suit).
This will also be my first game integrating White Scars grav bikers with my Sisters. I got some solid advice in another thread on this forum on that build:
Any general advice on fighting Tau? I know to try to identify and eliminate marker lights and to try to get into melee if it doesn't mean getting destroyed by overwatch. Any thoughts on the juiciest targets for melta and grav with ignore cover, and whether better to scout or outflank? Do I want to hit & run on my turn even if it means more overwatch, or just stay stuck in? If I draw second turn, should I use scout moves to advance or grab cover? Which units or guns should I absolutely try to steer clear of? And do I want a terrain heavy table, or at least some dense avenues of approach to block his LoS at range?
Scout or Outflank is dependent on who deploys first in my experience. I wouldn't use H&R against Tau personally unless they did something crazy and tried to lock a character-killer with fire warriors. XD
LoS blocking is much more useful than cover saves - cover saves give you movement penalties, and you want to be in close... and he can get ignores cover super-easily.
Be careful of using Outflank or any Reserves against Tau - Tau can get Interceptor all over the place (look out for Broadsides, Riptides and Stormsurges especially with the Early Warning Override upgrade) which means they can shoot your units that come out of reserve in your own movement phase. I'm not saying don't use Reserves at all, but just pay attention to what, if anything, has Early Warning Overrides and use your Reserves carefully.
Also probably expect Deep Striking Crisis Suits to pop in next to your Exorcists with Fusion Blasters (ie Tau Melta guns).
Take a close look at his army and see what his ideal ranges are. Most Tau like to shoot between 18" and 36". I would try to go first and scout into an advantageous position to control the board and set up a strike against a key target like a riptide.
If you go second, look for LOS blocking terrain. Avoid reserves if he has lots of interceptor.
Great advice! Sounds like if I get to go first, I scout across the table and go after his suits with melta and grav, but if I go second I use my scout moves to grab some LoS blocking positions and wait. If he's loaded up on early warning, I should limit my reserves and scout everything instead, but if he doesn't, I should carefully outflank some melta Doms or grav bikers to get at those long range suits.
Sounds like I shouldn't assault unless it's an obvious target isolated from the rest of his force based on the overwatch support, but if I do charge, H&R is less enticing than usual. I was thinking that getting into assault after a turn or two of short-range shooting would save me from being outranged and shot to pieces from across the table, but maybe that isn't the case?
Thanks for giving me specific upgrades to watch for... I'll study up on Tau suit varieties. Any formations I should anticipate? There was a lot of chatter about a stealth cadre when those new books were released, but I don't know which formations actually proved themselves.
MacPhail wrote: Great advice! Sounds like if I get to go first, I scout across the table and go after his suits with melta and grav, but if I go second I use my scout moves to grab some LoS blocking positions and wait. If he's loaded up on early warning, I should limit my reserves and scout everything instead, but if he doesn't, I should carefully outflank some melta Doms or grav bikers to get at those long range suits.
Sounds like I shouldn't assault unless it's an obvious target isolated from the rest of his force based on the overwatch support, but if I do charge, H&R is less enticing than usual. I was thinking that getting into assault after a turn or two of short-range shooting would save me from being outranged and shot to pieces from across the table, but maybe that isn't the case?
Thanks for giving me specific upgrades to watch for... I'll study up on Tau suit varieties. Any formations I should anticipate? There was a lot of chatter about a stealth cadre when those new books were released, but I don't know which formations actually proved themselves.
There are a lot of good tau formations. Just take a few minutes to review the rules for the ones he fields before starting the game. I saw a bunch of different ones being fielded at LVO and don't think there is a particular "best one" or "must include."
The best thing to do against Tau is to try and isolate his units and assault them on favorable terms. Depending on the list he brings, you actually have a fairly level shooting match between 18" and 30". You can stay in that range band to avoid rapid fire from Fire Warriors and the like. Suits don't get more shots as you close so you want to try and concentrate on one flank and roll up the side rather than engaging the length of his line.
Not a Sisters player, but I just had an idle thought that got me wondering.
How would Sisters of Battle take on an Avatar of Khaine?
My understanding is that the majority of their anti-big-thing weapons are melta, but the Avatar is completely immune to melta (and flamers) due to Molten Body.
I mean, would you just pelt it with bolters and hope it dies to volume of fire, or what?
Robin5t wrote: Not a Sisters player, but I just had an idle thought that got me wondering.
How would Sisters of Battle take on an Avatar of Khaine?
My understanding is that the majority of their anti-big-thing weapons are melta, but the Avatar is completely immune to melta (and flamers) due to Molten Body.
I mean, would you just pelt it with bolters and hope it dies to volume of fire, or what?
Exorcist Missiles - S8 AP1
Although its never a good idea to play a 7.5 Power Codex like Eldar unless you have the same edition Codex
Robin5t wrote: Not a Sisters player, but I just had an idle thought that got me wondering.
How would Sisters of Battle take on an Avatar of Khaine?
My understanding is that the majority of their anti-big-thing weapons are melta, but the Avatar is completely immune to melta (and flamers) due to Molten Body.
I mean, would you just pelt it with bolters and hope it dies to volume of fire, or what?
I would probably just ignore it. The Avatar's relatively slow and his damage output is minimal against MSU sisters. Better to kill the more efficient support choices and play the mission.
If I had to deal with the avatar, a blob of 20 Sisters with priest will do a decent amount of damage between bolter fire and a round of krak grenades in assault with preferred enemy.
Robin5t wrote: Not a Sisters player, but I just had an idle thought that got me wondering.
How would Sisters of Battle take on an Avatar of Khaine?
My understanding is that the majority of their anti-big-thing weapons are melta, but the Avatar is completely immune to melta (and flamers) due to Molten Body.
I mean, would you just pelt it with bolters and hope it dies to volume of fire, or what?
I don't think it would be a deal breaker honestly. Killing the Avatar isn't exactly a priorityu target in most games. He's slow. So kill everything else if you find yourself in that situation I suppose. Been an ice age since I saw an Avatar which is a shame.
Quick battle report on the Tau matchup this weekend: Purge the Alien on a Dawn of War board resulted in a 9-4 loss, but I'm taking it as more of a draw because we only made it 3 turns and my opponent was genuinely distressed at the prospect of a 4th. It was 6-4 on kill points, but he got First Blood, Slay the Warlord (Khan was right up in his face) and Linebreaker (with his late-arriving Flyer).
My Army is posted above, Sisters + White Scars. His army, best I can remember: Aun'va w/ a bodyguard that includes a Crisis and some other dudes, Shadownsun with dual fusion attached to a unit of Pathfinders, a big Sniper Drone unit, a Fire Warrior squad with an attached IC, 2 squads of Kroot infiltrators, 2 Piranhas with fusion, a Riptide with burst cannon, 3 Broadsides with railguns and an attached IC in a Crisis suit with a bunch of drones, a Hammerhead with railgun, and a SunShark bomber. His basic design was that between the attached ICs and the buff bubbles, he was firing 3 (sometimes 4) times with each Fire Warrior, Kroot, and Sniper Drone, depending on range. He typically dropped 40-60 dice for each unit's shooting, including overwatch, forcing a ton of saves.
He went first and deployed on the slightly more dense side of the table, with lots of 3-story ruins. He stacked Sniper Drones and Pathfinders on the upper levels, Fire Warriors and Piranhas to one side, Broadsides to the other, with the Riptide and Hammerhead in the center. Kroot were strung out in two lines in front. He had some interceptor, but not a ton, so I reserved a squad of grav bikers and an Immolator Dom squad. I loaded the rest of my deployment heavily on his left flank with the Fire Warriors and Piranhas, hoping to get there quickly and turn the flank while avoiding the bigger suits. I failed to seize, so I used my scout moves to advance a little, but focused on limiting his LoS.
He took hull points off the Exorcists at range with the Hammerhead, but nothing else could punch their front armor, and the Doms got the Hammerhead before it could finish the job. If we'd played more turns, the Exos would have had near-immunity and would have finished doubling out the Broadsides. The Doms, both the ones I scouted and the ones I outflanked, survived the whole game; they got the Hammerhead and both Piranhas, and one group even hopped back in their immobilized ride to deny kill points because my opponent was really struggling with popping my tanks. The BSS Rhino got hung up in a choke point behind an immobilized Piranha. The Rhino Rets made it to the far side and took out some of the Fire Warriors with their Heavy Flamers, but didn't survive overwatch to get in to combat. All in all, the rush of armor was more than he could easily deal with and I feel like I only needed one more turn to get well into his lines.
The White Scars were interesting... they crossed the table more slowly than they might have because I tried to grab cover along the way, not for the saves, but to limit the number of incoming shots. The two small squads both got wiped out by the Broadsides before they could do anything, one as it crossed the table, and the other as it arrived from reserves (I gambled on interceptor and lost). The bike command squad with Khan and the Librarian soaked up the first turn of regular shooting from 5 units, plus more than 100 marker-enhanced overwatch shots, and only lost the 4 grav bikes... FNP is amaaaaazing. Khan, the Librarian, and the Apothecary swept a squad of Kroot, survived another full turn of regular fire from 3 units, and died to another 100+ shots in overwatch on my second turn. Had even one of them made it into combat with the Fire Warriors, they would have substantially reduced the amount of fire that tore up the approaching Sisters and it might have been a much different game.
Some other observations... I never jinked because he never almost denied my armor saves; only a few precision shots from the Sniper Drones did so. What got me was the volume of saves he was able to force. His squad of 13 Fire Warriors with their attached IC and the 12" buff from Aun'Va laid down 52 S5 shots against my T5 bikes, and only FNP got me across the table. Sniper Drones did the same with 36 shots at even longer range. Looking back, I shouldn't have bothered seeking cover or LoS blocking, and I shouldn't have reserved anything. Everything should have blitzed full speed: Scout + Move + Turbo-Boost/Flat Out, despite having second turn. This would have put more units in charge distance for turn 2 so the grav command wouldn't have to soak hundreds of shots by themselves. I was worried about giving up grav gun shots at full BS by jinking and went looking for cover to avoid it, but I never should have hoped to shoot them in turn 1 in the first place; they should have been sprinting for the end zone and forcing him to divide his fire or prioritize certain targets.
Thoughts on the army list... I won't take Celestine again; getting her in a T5 squad would have been nice, but she can't keep up if the bikers make a scout move, so she got left behind (although she eventually assaulted the Sniper Drones, but didn't have time to finished them). Better that her points go for extra bikes. My backfield objective campers had no objectives to camp, but the extra 15 points worth of storm bolters starting mowing down Kroot at 24", and they didn't give up a VP, so I think they might have earned their points in later turns. I think I'm in the market for more Rhino hulls and more bikes; his biggest issue was forcing saves on T5 bikes and trying to pop lots of AV13 and AV11 armor with a 6+ save. If I'd moved a little faster and more boldly, I'd have gotten close enough to disrupt his supporting overwatch.
Anyway, thanks for the excellent advice. My opponent said I'd put the fear into him and gotten deeper into his lines than anyone, and he's undefeated in his last several games in our group.
Two quick thoughts: (1) how'd he grab line breaker with the flyer? It can't score unless in hover which he can't do the turn he arrives from reserves. (2) Scout confers to attached ICs so Celestine could have scouted up with the bikes.
MacPhail wrote: Thoughts on the army list... I won't take Celestine again; getting her in a T5 squad would have been nice, but she can't keep up if the bikers make a scout move, so she got left behind
She can? Scout only requires one model in the unit for the whole unit to be able to redeploy, and since she's Jump Infantry she also moves 12" along with the bikes
Cool, so my mistake there. The last thing I read was about how Khan gives scout to White Scars models on bikes or in transports, and it sunk in that she was excluded. She would have been able to tank some wounds on her 2+ and dish out some hurt in assault; they definitely would have survived overwatch to make their second assault. Noted for next time! I also screwed up movements on some transports, not moving far enough on scout/flatout moves. Between all of those, I should be able to tighten up the rush quite a bit for my next game.
MacPhail wrote: Cool, so my mistake there. The last thing I read was about how Khan gives scout to White Scars models on bikes or in transports, and it sunk in that she was excluded. She would have been able to tank some wounds on her 2+ and dish out some hurt in assault; they definitely would have survived overwatch to make their second assault. Noted for next time! I also screwed up movements on some transports, not moving far enough on scout/flatout moves. Between all of those, I should be able to tighten up the rush quite a bit for my next game.
So based on what you've said, can you squeeze a TFC into your list? I think that would actually solve your problem by forcing the Tau player to spread the board and diluting his overwatch.
A TFC would need to dislodge something, maybe Jacobus now that I've seen the need to test Celestine with the bikers again. I could also run my Exorcists as Whirlwinds with the Suppression Force and leave the S8 to the scouting Doms. Also, I'd need to acquire the model.
Whirlwinds in a suppression force would do the trick as well. I'd drop Jacobus to make it happen in your current list. A S5, AP4 barrage is pretty deadly for Tau. Do you have enough models to run 3 whirlwinds to pick up pinning and shred?
Yep, I can use a couple of old-style Rhinos to get me there for now... I'm going to add to my Rhino motor pool at some point. Six hulls go out pretty much every game and I always wish for one more. I built turrets to run up to 4 Immolators and 3 Missile-somethings (Exorcists, Whirlwinds). I just need a few more hulls, and I'm going to want extras for some Rhinos/Razorbacks to share with the White Scars. Eventually I want 9 white Rhinos with doors, top plates, and turrets of both colors to share between Sisters and White Scars.
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points in my last turn)
