What are the options ("Ranged Weapons, Melee Weapons, Runts & Squigs, Orky Know-wots and/or Gifts of Gork and Mork list") for the Painboy and the Warboss?
Are Skorchas unchanged?
Cost points for the Buggies? Is it true that the unit is 1-5 and gets outflank? Do Wartrakks still exist?
In Nobz and MaNZ mobs which is the cost for the Killsaw upgrade and for the Waaagh! Banner? As well, what is a Boss Nob in those units?
Kill bolt, 18 inch str 10 ap 2 beam? Love it.
Vomit: Str 7 AP2 template, love it.
Da Krunch: Str2D6 Large Blast, if you roll a over 10 you hit everything twice at str 10. Love it.
Teleporting 30 strong mobs around the table. Love it.
Weird boyz taking up my precious HQ slots, not so loving it.
BooBoo wrote: What are the optinons ("Ranged Weapons, Melee Weapons, Runts & Squigs, Orky Know-wots and/or Gifts of Gork and Mork list") for the Painboy and the Warboss?
Are Skorchas unchanged?
Cost points for the Buggies? Is it true that the unit is 1-5 and gets outflank? Do Wartrakks still exist?
In Nobz and MaNZ mobs which is the cost for the Killsaw upgrade and for the Waaagh! Banner? As well, what is a Boss Nob in those units?
Twinlinked shootas, Kombi Shootas
Klaw or Big Choppa
bike, Cybork, Boss pole, Gitfinda
Some surgical grot, otherwise ammo runt or attack squig
Relics have been covered already
5 point drop on buggies, yes upto 5, yes outflank.
Skorcha same cost as before
trakk is a 5 point upgrade
Kill saw is 10 points for the pair for mega nobz, replaces both weapons.
Waagh is double that.
Boss Nob is literally nothing more than unit leader (no stat differences to normal nob)
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deffrekka wrote: How many pts is mega armour for the hq's, and can painboys get mega armour?
Same as warboss used to pay, no mega painboyz sorry.
herpguy wrote: Wow so Ghaz lost his invul (except for once per game), and his special Waaagh that makes all units fearless and used to give a guaranteed 12" charge to everybody and he's still the SAME PRICE???? Wow this is such a disaster.
Inb4 'sky is falling' etc, for serious guys, do these changes look fun to you? There could be hidden power combos, sure, but as someone else put it, this book is suppost to be fun, and it looks like its anything but.
We're probably in the minority, Dakkamite. Nothing strikes me as particularly interesting about any of the new rules, and I've read pretty much this entire thread. It all just seems so milk-toasty and uninspired.The changes are over-complicated (really, more random tables?) or just simply baffling.
I hate to be saying this but after CSM and now this I think I'm finally done with 40K.
herpguy wrote: Not to mention all warbosses are now chumps in combat due to not being able to get an invul.
Pfft, a Warboss will still wipe the floor with 90% of Space Marine Captain-alikes without EW and will still frighten MC's, especially now their S10 stomp is one attack. With cybork body you get some defence, and depending on the cost of lucky stixx they could make War bosses a real winner.
herpguy wrote: Wow so Ghaz lost his invul (except for once per game), and his special Waaagh that makes all units fearless and used to give a guaranteed 12" charge to everybody and he's still the SAME PRICE???? Wow this is such a disaster.
herpguy wrote: Wow so Ghaz lost his invul (except for once per game), and his special Waaagh that makes all units fearless and used to give a guaranteed 12" charge to everybody and he's still the SAME PRICE???? Wow this is such a disaster.
Uhhh, about that... you may have been cheating.
Thats what he did in the 5th edition ruleset. 100% chance to run 6" and then be allowed to 100% charge 6"
Personally, I love how the 6+ FNP rumour was actually true... It just replaces our 5++ cybork body!
Please don't tell me it costs 5 points.
1.Any changes to ammo runts, oilers, orderlies?
2.Are mek toolz still the same?
3.Do FnP from Painboyz and Cyborg body stack?
4.Anything other then a bike, that can save a warboss from S10 instant kills?
How would you build a warboss? It seems mega armour or bikes are the ways to go...
So how much does Ghaz cost, for something that has no invulnerable save apparently. Does he have any special rules at like all? Just continually allows Waagh?
Thanks again, mate. A couple of quick questions, if you've got the time and you aren't sick of being interrogated.
Do grot mobs still have to take a slaver for every ten models?
Can the mekboy be assigned to a unit of kans at the start of the game? Does he confer any benefits to a non-vehicle unit he joins?
Can battlewagons chosen as a transport take a killcannon?
Can you confirm that all of the following are heavy support choices: flash gitz, lootas, killa kans, deff dreds, gorka/morkanaut, battlewagon, big gunz?
herpguy wrote: Not to mention all warbosses are now chumps in combat due to not being able to get an invul.
Pfft, a Warboss will still wipe the floor with 90% of Space Marine Captain-alikes without EW and will still frighten MC's, especially now their S10 stomp is one attack. With cybork body you get some defence, and depending on the cost of lucky stixx they could make War bosses a real winner.
With bikerbosses now with only a 4+ save (and a 6+ FnP....) they will be killed very easily by anything. Warbosses aren't only for that very rare chance your warlord gets in a challenge with your enemy's. 99% of the time I found myself only being able to use the 5++ in combat with bikerbosses.
herpguy wrote: Wow so Ghaz lost his invul (except for once per game), and his special Waaagh that makes all units fearless and used to give a guaranteed 12" charge to everybody and he's still the SAME PRICE???? Wow this is such a disaster.
Uhhh, about that... you may have been cheating.
Thats what he did in the 5th edition ruleset. 100% chance to run 6" and then be allowed to 100% charge 6"
Personally, I love how the 6+ FNP rumour was actually true... It just replaces our 5++ cybork body!
Please don't tell me it costs 5 points.
It does, sorry.
MaRV wrote:Thank you for your patience and for sharing
1.Any changes to ammo runts, oilers, orderlies?
2.Are mek toolz still the same?
3.Do FnP from Painboyz and Cyborg body stack?
4.Anything other then a bike, that can save a warboss from S10 instant kills?
How would you build a warboss? It seems mega armour or bikes are the ways to go...
once per game, reroll to hit, to fix, fnp in that order for each type of grot.
5+ to fix, or 3+ for the relic version
Nope, each states a fixed value
Prayer.
My builds are currently all Freeboota themed, but probably arent competitive. (Mega armour, relic shoota, relic hat, relic stikk, git finda. 145 points, 2+ rerollable, 6 shots, 2 warlord traits, BS3 stationary). Relic Bike boss is good but is stuck with a 4+ save, not that nice.
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:Does mega armor still grant slow and purposefull ?
I like the kanz panic rule. Make sence and it makes me laugh thinking of a grot still getting scared inside a garbage kan.
Melcavuk wrote: Kill bolt, 18 inch str 10 ap 2 beam? Love it.
Vomit: Str 7 AP2 template, love it.
Da Krunch: Str2D6 Large Blast, if you roll a over 10 you hit everything twice at str 10. Love it.
Teleporting 30 strong mobs around the table. Love it.
Weird boyz taking up my precious HQ slots, not so loving it.
Bro,
Are painboyz more or less expensive than they were before, and do they confer 5+ FNP to the entire unit they join?
Hollismason wrote:So how much does Ghaz cost, for something that has no invulnerable save apparently. Does he have any special rules at like all? Just continually allows Waagh?
Same cost, is eternal warrior. His warlord trait makes boyz within 12 inches fearless in a waaagh. Only one waaagh per game unless you are running a specific formation (which ghaz isnt in, so irrelevant sorry)
office_waaagh wrote:Thanks again, mate. A couple of quick questions, if you've got the time and you aren't sick of being interrogated.
Do grot mobs still have to take a slaver for every ten models?
Can the mekboy be assigned to a unit of kans at the start of the game? Does he confer any benefits to a non-vehicle unit he joins?
Can battlewagons chosen as a transport take a killcannon?
Can you confirm that all of the following are heavy support choices: flash gitz, lootas, killa kans, deff dreds, gorka/morkanaut, battlewagon, big gunz?
Yes, must every 10.
Infantry or Artillery only, no benefits other than being another special weapon really
Yes, but it drops their capacity to 12
Mek gunz (not big gunz ) but yes, all heavy supports, its a crowded slot.
Melcavuk wrote: Kill bolt, 18 inch str 10 ap 2 beam? Love it.
Vomit: Str 7 AP2 template, love it.
Da Krunch: Str2D6 Large Blast, if you roll a over 10 you hit everything twice at str 10. Love it.
Teleporting 30 strong mobs around the table. Love it.
Weird boyz taking up my precious HQ slots, not so loving it.
Bro,
Are painboyz more or less expensive than they were before, and do they confer 5+ FNP to the entire unit they join?
To reliably cast the WC 2 power we'll have to throw 4-6 dice off a unit that only generates 2 naturally. Can you elaborate on the mechanic that lets them get more war charges?
You mentioned they have to take a physic test or take a wound. Is that leadership on a 7? Do weirdboys still have 2 wounds each?
You also mentioned they got cheaper. What is their new price and upgrade cost?
Toburk wrote: To reliably cast the WC 2 power we'll have to throw 4-6 dice off a unit that only generates 2 naturally. Can you elaborate on the mechanic that lets them get more war charges?
You mentioned they have to take a physic test or take a wound. Is that leadership on a 7? Do weirdboys still have 2 wounds each?
You also mentioned they got cheaper. What is their new price and upgrade cost?
Generates 1 WC for ever 10 models with 'ere we go within 12"
Personally if I roll a Weirdboy I'd be hoping for the Teleport power, or the beam. In the case of the Teleport its only a single warp charge which is nice.
Melcavuk wrote: Personally if I roll a Weirdboy I'd be hoping for the Teleport power, or the beam. In the case of the Teleport its only a single warp charge which is nice.
Melcavuk wrote: Personally if I roll a Weirdboy I'd be hoping for the Teleport power, or the beam. In the case of the Teleport its only a single warp charge which is nice.
Can you give the weirdboy any equipment? Armor or anything? Also, you've got PM...
Melcavuk wrote: Personally if I roll a Weirdboy I'd be hoping for the Teleport power, or the beam. In the case of the Teleport its only a single warp charge which is nice.
Can you give the weirdboy any equipment? Armor or anything? Also, you've got PM...
He has no equipment options, his only option is to up his mastery lvl.
Man, the heavy support slot is going to be HIGHLY contested. Between Big Gunz, Lootaz, and the good ol Battlewagons, they're really not going to be any room there a all.
On one hand, I'm sad to see fearless go. On the other.... it'll be nice to have a mob of 30 boyz go to ground in a ruin, or be able to flee from a pointless combat (weapons are useless!).
The return of the old Waagh is nice... but whats the point? A 'competitive' ork army shoots.
All in all, it looks like we just got Tyranided. Its the same thing as our last book.
I have to agree with Nameless, aside from Mob Rule getting worse for mobs (marginally and only by 6th/7th standard) and a few other things (shoota boyz going UP in cost) I'm happy.
A set of good relics, useful tankbustas, good warlord traits, etc. I fell this boom will be a good mid-tier dex and fun!
Still annoying Heavy Support is crowded (even more so now with 2 new units and 1 moved to it), however nothing too bad.
I, for one, can't wait to get back to my orks after 2-3 years of them sitting on a shelf while I played Daemons n' stuff. Soopa shooy mek lists all da way!
Horde orks are still pretty darn great, especially with the ork warband FOC. 9 units of 20 boyz come out to 1485 points if I'm not mistaken and that includes 2 special weapons and a PK nob too. Add weirdboys if you want to have a proper psychic phase or add painboys if you want FNP in some of those units.
Multiple FOC dread mob sounds crazy good as well. Morkanauts giving 5++ saves to all of our deff dreads and units of 6(!) killa kanz... And all of that can have IWND too!
(Mega)nob armies, I'm not too sure about. I love the idea of killsaw meganobz, but I'm not sure what I'd run them in: battlewagons are pretty expensive, but durable, trukks are cheap but will get blown to bits.
If you want to run a nob biker army, you still can but they won't have objective secured. If you want to spam warbikerz, flash gitz, hell, any unit that isn't a troop just use multiple FOC! Fill your mandatory troops with gretchin and you're good to go.
Toburk wrote:Does Zag have his old statline for a warboss stat line? What is his new point cost? And badrukk's points cost too if you could.
Mr.Omega wrote:Sorry because I think I missed it, but with Blitza Bommers how do their bombs work now? Still have to roll on the ran-dumb table?
Also I heard something about Burna Bommers getting AP2 from a bird in this thread, is that true? What's the stats on their bombs and missiles?
1 Less Wound, 1 Less Toughness than a Warobss, 5 Points more.
110 for Badrukk.
Blitza Bombs: 2D6, on a 2 you crash, 3 you and your target take a str 9 AP 2, otherwise you hit, with 12 meaning you can shoot your guns aswell. (str 7 AP2, large blast armour bane, one use only)
Burna Bombs str 5 AP4 large blast ignore cover. Skorcha Missiles str 5 AP4 small blast ignores cover.
Painboys inside Mek Gunz Units will be pretty nice. Since its artillery the unit takes hits at the guns T7, so put your spare grot infront they are now T7, FNP shields for the unit.
Is it possible to take one Big Gun, just the two grot gunners, then add a megaboss, a KKF Big mek, a normal mek, and a Painboy for a silly Ork "deathstar" that takes shooting at T7, 5++, 5+FNP with cheap extra wounds, can still be able to shoot the big gun, and still not be majority toughness 2 for close combat?
1.A maxed out burna bommer now cost 190pts, will it get cheaper?
2.A maxed out blitza-Bommer cost 140pts, will it get cheaper?
3.Are killsaws available to a warboss (with or without mega armour)?
4.Other then the mega armoured nobs/meks are there other new models in the dex?
5:The 6 new ork objectives should be in the codex, what do we need to do to win?
1. No invulnerable saves in CC. Most nids dont either, but then most nids that would care are w4+ and/or t6. Their version of FnP is the normal 4+.
2. 3/7 ork psychic powers are Roll-to-Hit witchfires on a BS2 model. A model with no options, no save, and who has no other psychic support to generate more WC. Whoopie
3. We have no way to give our units any sort of save at a reasonable cost. We are supposed to compensate with more bodies, but our best choice went up in cost. Some would argue they needed the increase, I would disagree.
4. Still no power weapons. Big choppas cant puncture power armor or even Fire Warrior armor. Still have power klaws, but they continue to have their issues. Nobz cant get Eavy Armor without the whole unit upgrading to Eavy Armor, so less chance your nob will survive even against a SMTac Sgt.
5. Still no reliable anti AV14. The Tankhammer is AP3, no shooting above S8 unless you get REAL lucky with a Shokk Attack gun. Anti MC is still pretty much just power klaws, only now we cant get invulnerable saves in CC so very unlikely they will be swinging.
6. Killa Kanz taking LD checks. Nuff said.
Let me be clear: I already preorderd the warboss edition. I love my orks. Put a gun to my head and force me to give up all my armies but one, and I will be keeping my orks. Lets just say after the update my Nids got that Im not really happy to see another army get basically no love.
Yeah. they repackaged a book from 7 years ago and resold it to us at nearly double the cost.
It does nothing to fix the fact that we are assault army in a shooting game. Or the fact that a space marine will shoot the tar out of you, then beat you in the assault (if you ever get there). Or to fix the fact we have no good way to kill heavily armored vehicles from range... in a shooting game.
The only strategy we have left, is the same one we've always had. Don't die. Flood the table in boyz and weather 5-6 turns of picking models up. Win if you're still on objectives.
1.A maxed out burna bommer now cost 190pts, will it get cheaper?
2.A maxed out blitza-Bommer cost 140pts, will it get cheaper?
3.Are killsaws available to a warboss (with or without mega armour)?
4.Other then the mega armoured nobs/meks are there other new models in the dex?
5:The 6 new ork objectives should be in the codex, what do we need to do to win?
Im loving this QnA
1) If we include red paint job 10 points less
2) If we are including red paint job, same cost
3) Nope
4) Not that I can see
5) They are: Shoot an enemy unit off the board, Kill the enemy warlord in a challenge with your warboss, destroy an enemy unit in your assault phase (more units gone, more points), Turbo boost 3 vehicles (or bike units), secure a random objective (roll a D6), Charge more than 10 inches.
From what om gathering it doesnt excite me that much. Our assualt range got better but we lost ramshackle and bw are more expensive.
My initial reaction is, well thats not what i was expecting. Anyone else feel like they were going to make Orks stronge almost across the board? Im still figuring it out but im not that happy and weve only been waiting for a new codex for how long...
been following all day since i put in my preorder. am i getting this right
so big meks and wierdboys dont take force org slot?
painboss is now hq instead of nob-charector upgrade?
by any chance did they give us an av bump on our flyers?
thanks
Dinamarth wrote: Sorry if I missed it but any info on Grotsnik? Does he allow the purchase of army-wide Cybork armor?
Nope, he's just... a slightly mental painboy really. Gives fearless and rampage. No other perks really.
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forgotten ghosts wrote: been following all day since i put in my preorder. am i getting this right
so big meks and wierdboys dont take force org slot?
painboss is now hq instead of nob-charector upgrade?
by any chance did they give us an av bump on our flyers?
thanks
Big meks and Weird boys do take HQ slots. Mek (smaller ones) dont.
Painboy is a HQ No.
The orks will IMHO get a boost: cheaper units (except shootaboyz), painboyz as ICs, 5++ from KFF, rerolls on a 2+ save, faster and bigger assault units, better Waaargh!...
We may not what to get "stuck in" as much as we want to get "dug in", but the orks are looking to me to become an army, that can outlive their opponents (hope) .
1. Reading the upcoming WD, it sounds like a battlewagon has 4HP, is this correct?
so they baited us with some cool Heavy Supports, the 'Ere we go rule, 5++ KFF, built up our dreams
And now they crush them with the death of the Mob Rule, more expensive Shoota Boyz, cutting many of the cool things from the previous codex, adding mostly random or useless stuff that wont work, all that and more...
They really forged a big narrative all over our faces
I've been trying to follow this thread but as I'm not an ork player it gets kind of confusing. Can someone break it down for me. What's the good, what's the bad and what's the blah?
Power level?
Fluffy?
Anything else?
MaRV wrote:The orks will IMHO get a boost: cheaper units (except shootaboyz), painboyz as ICs, 5++ from KFF, rerolls on a 2+ save, faster and bigger assault units, better Waaargh!...
We may not what to get "stuck in" as much as we want to get "dug in", but the orks are looking to me to become an army, that can outlive their opponents (hope) .
1. Reading the upcoming WD, it sounds like a battlewagon has 4HP, is this correct?
Yup, 4 HP
Rumblebee wrote:Could I use the specific ork detachment and then also use the normal rules detachment in the same game?
Yes, its just a new type of detachment but follows all of the detachment rules found in the 40K corebook. Essentially you could have a battleforged army with an Ork Horde Detachment and 2 Combined Arms detachments.
I honestly don't know what to do with my army now. I just started building it at the tail end of 6th, and I was set up more or less for a mixed fore of trukks and battlewagon rush that I guess is like a hybrid speed freakz. Does anyone else feel like the codex is being pushed more towards MSU-style units or specialized high cost units (trukk boyz, flash gitz in trukks/morkanaughts/wagons, burnas in morkanaughts, etc.)? Is that what I should start purchasing for? It seems like IC's are a lot more integral now with the relics wargear options, even if warbosses are more or less nerfed in CC without an invul.
MWHistorian wrote: I've been trying to follow this thread but as I'm not an ork player it gets kind of confusing. Can someone break it down for me. What's the good, what's the bad and what's the blah?
Power level?
Fluffy?
Anything else?
I'd say respectable mid tier. Its no tau but it doesnt seem tyranid to me.
I like it, I think alot of the unit choices are fun, you can work a theme with the wargear options.
its not the boost people were hoping for but I find it to be a solid codex.
Stashgordon36 wrote: Maybe GW leaked this fake codex to be extremely brutal and cunning before the good one hits next weekend...
That would assume they gave a living feth about Orks.
They don't.
If it's not Eldar, Tau or Imperial it is there as target practice for those factions.
I'm sure i can come up with a reasonably effective Ork armylist under the new rules, but from what i've seen it'll be more like playing a more random, green IG army..
streamdragon wrote: Yeah guys, totally chill! I mean it's not like people have listed known issues or anything!
It definitely seems our characters will be in some trouble when challenged due to the lack of invulns. Thankfully warbosses are pretty tough so they should be able to survive what other characters can dish out and then just instant kill them with a PK. Nobs I would hesitate to accept challenges with - you'll need the bosspole to keep the unit in check, so why risk losing it fighting just one 'umie? Shooting shouldn't be as big of a problem, just use LO,S! a lot.
I don't think anybody was saying this new book was flawless, but it's what we have now and crying about it certainly won't help anyone. Just give it some time, we haven't even seen everything yet. Good lists will emerge. Until then, let's try to stay positive and figure out ways around the weaknesses we have.
MWHistorian wrote: I've been trying to follow this thread but as I'm not an ork player it gets kind of confusing. Can someone break it down for me. What's the good, what's the bad and what's the blah? Power level? Fluffy? Anything else?
I'd say respectable mid tier. Its no tau but it doesnt seem tyranid to me.
I like it, I think alot of the unit choices are fun, you can work a theme with the wargear options.
its not the boost people were hoping for but I find it to be a solid codex.
This is how I'm feeling about the codex, it's pretty much the same thing as the 4th ed. one. I've got the feeling you could mix the rules of this new 'dex and the old one and get something fairly balanced, which I might do once I get my hands on the new book. Most of the changes don't work great with 7th ed. but probably would have been fine in 6th.
Thanks Melcavuk for answering all these questions, good thing you got your hands on that codex! Have a good one.
Ugh. Of all the changes I am least excited about (and there's NOTHING that excites me about these changes), losing the ability to take 'eavy armor on my nobs in squads is the one that really burns me up.
1) Who the feth cares, GW? The nob has a 4+ save? Big Whoop!
2)It's not like people bought, assembled, and modeled nobs to have eavy armor or anything. I mean, ork players don't care what their models look like.
3). We ADDED the ability to take combi-shootas, so why WOULDN'T we drop another option? I mean, you can't just ADD an option. You have to lose one.
I'm also really, really, really, really annoyed about the loss of options to make bikes, dreads, and nobs into troops based on your HQ choices. First, it just screws over everybody who had done so in the last codex. Second, it really seems like GW is flipping us off and saying, "Didn't think you liked Unbound, did you? Well, your precious army isn't legal without it, now, stupid!".
Again, dropping an option is just fething stupid. If you want to sell more models, add more options. I swear, it's like the model-makers at GW are frantically trying to bail out the sinking ship while the rules writers keep drilling holes in the hull. For the most part, all they had to do was NOT FETH UP the codex. Drop some points values, fix a few units with stupid rules limitations, and give it a new coat of paint. NOPE. Let's monkey about in there some more. It's like a painboy rooting around in a brain pan.
MWHistorian wrote: I've been trying to follow this thread but as I'm not an ork player it gets kind of confusing. Can someone break it down for me. What's the good, what's the bad and what's the blah?
Power level?
Fluffy?
Anything else?
I'd say respectable mid tier. Its no tau but it doesnt seem tyranid to me.
I like it, I think alot of the unit choices are fun, you can work a theme with the wargear options.
its not the boost people were hoping for but I find it to be a solid codex.
Compare it to the 4th ed codex
Fearless mobs of orks (shootas cheaper)
5++ save for higher end units and HQs cheap reliable transports with a great way to protect the unit inside (Ramshackle exploded with str 3 inside and had a 1/3 chance of not exploding at all!)
the only thing that codex lacked were a couple of supporting units
well now we got a couple of supporting units, all crammed in the HS slot, but the best units of the ork codex got DESTROYED
and in comparison to the Nids codex, people actually found good ways to play that one, so yeah, this is wors then the Nids
Delevarius wrote: so they baited us with some cool Heavy Supports, the 'Ere we go rule, 5++ KFF, built up our dreams
And now they crush them with the death of the Mob Rule, more expensive Shoota Boyz, cutting many of the cool things from the previous codex, adding mostly random or useless stuff that wont work, all that and more...
They really forged a big narrative all over our faces
Mob rule works much like the old fearless did in 4th edition. Fearless has just changed a lot since then, so it seems different. Mob rule now means that if you fail the leadership test, you are still rather likely to lose a couple models but not fall back at all. But not being fearless means you can go to ground, or escape things you can't hurt in CC.
Shoota boyz have long been regarded as an extremely cost efficient troop choice, and often a no-brainer upgrade vs slugga/choppa boyz. Now they cost one point more. And finally nobz in boyz units can take kombi weapons.
Yes, I will miss Wazdakka, and Zagstruk's charge from deepstrike, and some of the FOC changes.
Waaagh going back to old school fleet (run then charge) is big. The relics are cheap and fun. Ork psykers are far better than they used to be. Lots of the more specialist units are cheaper- storm boyz, biker boyz, lootas, normal nobz, buggies, deff koptas. Lot of upgrades seem to be cheaper as well- killkannons are half price, weapon upgrades on buggies and deffkoptas seem to all be free to swap around. Wider access to AP2 shooting.
What is the wording for allocating wounds from the new mob rule? I think you said random?
That is going to take forever to properly apply RAW.
1-Need to take a morale or pinning test.
2-Roll for leadership
3-Fail
4-Roll on Mob Rule table
5-Bosspole (does using the bosspole still cause a wound?)
6-Re-roll Mob Rule table
7-Roll D6 to see how many S4 hits are taken
8-Roll to see how many hits are converted to wounds
9-Separate the mob into groups of 6 and assign them a number 1-6
10-Roll to see which group has the wound assigned to it. Re-roll if the result has not been assigned to a group
11-Assign each of the models in the group a number 1-6
12-Roll to see which model takes the wound. Return to Step 10 if result has not been assigned to a model
13-Roll for the models armour save
14-Roll FNP if applicable
15-Remove model if it is taken as a casualty
16-Repeat Steps 9-15 until all wounds have been assigned
Da Butcha wrote: I'm also really, really, really, really annoyed about the loss of options to make bikes, dreads, and nobs into troops based on your HQ choices. First, it just screws over everybody who had done so in the last codex. Second, it really seems like GW is flipping us off and saying, "Didn't think you liked Unbound, did you? Well, your precious army isn't legal without it, now, stupid!".
You can just run multiple FOCs now and get the same result. You'll lose objective secured on your nob bikerz, warbikerz and deff dreads, but it can still work. Fill your mandatory troops with gretchin and you're done - but if you're gonna do that, use the rulebook FOC, you'll only need 2 mobs of grotz per detachment that way.
As for the bosspole rule question, I wouldn't be surprised if GW just made it so the wounds are allocated to the boyz closest to the nob with the bosspole. If a unit includes multiple bosspoles, the ork player gets to decide which one is used for the roll. Casualties are removed closest to the nob, but the unit has to remain in coherency. Fixed?
Thanks for your time, Melcavuk! I really appreciate you answering all these questions.
The thing Ill miss the most is the Bosspole reroll to leadership
I ran a Trukk army, and for LD from shooting I had the bosspole save me more time that I can count
now a trukk squad when failing a morale check will only be ok on a roll of a 2-3, and that will most likely kill the nob
bunch of stuff already covered so we can keep the repeat questions down.
HQs listed as
Zagstruk Grotsnik Mek is a slotless HQ, 1 per actual HQ bought
Big Mek does not change FoC Painboy Warboss does not change FoC Weirdboy. Badrukk is a HQ (3+, 5++, str 7 AP2 assault 3 gun) , Badrukk has the rules listed for Da Rippa, but it is not listed in his wargear
Snikrot is not HQ, Snikkrot an elite (doesnt take a slot if taken with Kommandos) (shrouded on arrival, you pick an edge to outflank dont roll)
No Wazdakka
No Zogwort.
Ghaz is a LOW now, can take runts/squigs, stats look unchaged
D6 Warlord Trait 1 Prophet of the Waaagh!: Mork (or possibly Gork) has chosen this Warlord for greatness, and every Ork under his command knows it.
The Warlord gains the Waaagh! special rule. If the Warlord already has the Waaagh! special rule then, in addition to the usual effects, all friendly models with the ’Ere We Go! special rule gain the Fearless special rule when he calls a Waaagh!, until the start of their next turn.
2 Bellowing Tyrant: This Warlord is an unholy terror, a roaring lunatic whose every (very loud) word is law.
The Warlord, and all friendly units with the Orks Faction within 12" of him, re-roll failed Morale checks and Pinning tests.
3 Like a Thunderbolt!: This Warlord is a master of the all-out, no-holds-barred, headlong charge into battle.
The Warlord, and all friendly units with the Orks Faction within 12" of him, can re-roll all the dice when determining Run moves or charge range.
4 Brutal but Kunnin’: This Warlord has a sneaky streak a mile wide and knows just where to hit his foes.
The Warlord can re-roll one failed To Hit or To Wound roll each turn.
5 Kunnin’ but Brutal: The Warlord knows when to roll with a punch, and can shrug off the hardest blows.
The Warlord can re-roll one failed armour or invulnerable saving throw each turn.
6 Might is Right: Made of muscle and aggression, this Warlord is the embodiment of the Orks’ warlike nature.
The Warlord receives +1 to the Strength characteristic on his profile.
Buggys don't get new weapons, do get Grot Riggers at 10 points.
Not seen anything about FNP at all yet.
Grot riggers don't just work for IWND on 'nauts, any vehicle that has them, but cost per vehicle seems to differ. 20 to put them on a 'naut. BW don't seem to have the option.
Looks to be a lot more options with selecting wargear for meks
"A Big Mek may take items from the Mek Weapons, Melee Weapons, Runts & Squigs, Orky Know-wots and/or Gifts of Gork and Mork lists."
Mob rule is replaced by the D6 roll, yes.
Kustom Mega Slugga is a thing.
A Big Mek with mega armour can take one of the following
- Tellyport blasta Tellyporta blasta is the back mouned thing I've been describing and seems... uh, situational at best? Very short range weapon but causes instant death on a 6 wound. Rolling a 6 on AP causes a penetrating hit regardless of AV.
- Kustom force field
- Shock attack gun roll of double 6 is vortex!!!
- KFF can be combined with mega armour and bikes, Shock attack gun seems to be combinable with bikes.
- Git finda on SAG mek?
Relics: Gifts of Gork and Mork
Da Dead Shiny Shoota 6 shots twinlinked shoota, rolls of 1 hit one of your own units
Da Finkin’ Kap gives your warlord an additional trait from the strategic list.
Da Fixer Upperz
Da Lucky Stikk
Headwoppa’s Killchoppa is a +2 str, AP5, rending choppa that beheads on a roll of 6 (insta death).
Warboss Gazbag’s Blitzbike has an AP3 deff gun on it
Mob Chart D6 Result
1 If the unit is locked in combat, it passes the Morale check or Pinning test. If the unit is not locked in combat, it fails.
2-3 If the unit includes one or more Ork characters (including Independent Characters), it suffers D6 Strength 4 AP- hits, and is then treated as if it had passed the Morale check or Pinning test.
4-6 If the unit has 10 or more models, it suffers D6 Strength 4 AP- hits, and is then treated as if it had passed the Morale check or Pinning test. The hits are Randomly Allocated. If the unit has fewer than 10 models, it fails the Morale check or Pinning test.
Boss Pole gives Reroll on the mob chart.
Stompa in as super heavy
Battle Wagon up 20 points.
Killkannon still lowers transport on BW
Attack squig nerfed to 1 reroll in melee per turn
Tankbustas can shoot at whatever they like, and Bustas and Burnas can take dedicated trukks
Kommandos get Stealth, no point hike
Ramshackle got clobbered.. 6+ save when you take a pen, if successful downgrade to glance
Buggies in units of 5, gained outflank and a minor point decrease.
Rule for planks is a little complicated. If you get out of open topped and declare a charge, add 2 to the charge range
Deffrolla gains AP4 and loses half the hits
Lootas Heavy Support and cheaper (5 points less per squad)
Kans come in 6 packs, NO twin guns, NO Troop choice option, have special morale rule
If you take an Ork Warband detachment, you can Waaaagh every turn after the first
Weirdboys gain a Warp Charge point if there are 10 or more models with the 'ere we go rule (Pretty much any Ork from what I've seen) in 12" but has to take a psychic save or take a hit.
Power of the Waaagh! and Daemonlogy disciplines.
Can be upgraded to Psyker level 2.
Ork psychic powers are all cool. Either high strength, or teleport, large blast etc.
Primaris power is Frazzle (Blast witchfire).
'Eadbanger is now a focussed witchfire.
Warpath is a self blessing
Da jump is what used to be 'ere we go.
Killbolt is a beam attack.
Power vomit is a template witchfire.
Da Krunch is a barrage witchfire.
Cheap IWND on vehicles (5 points on Kans, 10 on dreds)
Painboy is IC, so put him where you need him, can take a bike.
Dedi transports available for burnas and tank bustas now
Warboss/Bigmek Mega Armor Kit is a thing
Ork boys cost 1 less point, but Shoota is 1 pt ugrade now
The HQ Mek (not Big Mek) has Boy statline
Pain Boys can not get 'Eavy Amor?
Zzap gun 2D6, gets hot on a 1-3 if you roll 11 or 12
adamsouza wrote: bunch of stuff already covered so we can keep the repeat questions down.
Spoiler:
HQs listed as
Zagstruk Grotsnik Mek is a slotless HQ, 1 per actual HQ bought
Big Mek does not change FoC Painboy Warboss does not change FoC Weirdboy. Badrukk is a HQ (3+, 5++, str 7 AP2 assault 3 gun) , Badrukk has the rules listed for Da Rippa, but it is not listed in his wargear
Snikrot is not HQ, Snikkrot an elite (doesnt take a slot if taken with Kommandos) (shrouded on arrival, you pick an edge to outflank dont roll)
No Wazdakka
No Zogwort.
Ghaz is a LOW now, can take runts/squigs, stats look unchaged
D6 Warlord Trait 1 Prophet of the Waaagh!: Mork (or possibly Gork) has chosen this Warlord for greatness, and every Ork under his command knows it.
The Warlord gains the Waaagh! special rule. If the Warlord already has the Waaagh! special rule then, in addition to the usual effects, all friendly models with the ’Ere We Go! special rule gain the Fearless special rule when he calls a Waaagh!, until the start of their next turn.
2 Bellowing Tyrant: This Warlord is an unholy terror, a roaring lunatic whose every (very loud) word is law.
The Warlord, and all friendly units with the Orks Faction within 12" of him, re-roll failed Morale checks and Pinning tests.
3 Like a Thunderbolt!: This Warlord is a master of the all-out, no-holds-barred, headlong charge into battle.
The Warlord, and all friendly units with the Orks Faction within 12" of him, can re-roll all the dice when determining Run moves or charge range.
4 Brutal but Kunnin’: This Warlord has a sneaky streak a mile wide and knows just where to hit his foes.
The Warlord can re-roll one failed To Hit or To Wound roll each turn.
5 Kunnin’ but Brutal: The Warlord knows when to roll with a punch, and can shrug off the hardest blows.
The Warlord can re-roll one failed armour or invulnerable saving throw each turn.
6 Might is Right: Made of muscle and aggression, this Warlord is the embodiment of the Orks’ warlike nature.
The Warlord receives +1 to the Strength characteristic on his profile.
Buggys don't get new weapons, do get Grot Riggers at 10 points.
Not seen anything about FNP at all yet.
Grot riggers don't just work for IWND on 'nauts, any vehicle that has them, but cost per vehicle seems to differ. 20 to put them on a 'naut. BW don't seem to have the option.
Looks to be a lot more options with selecting wargear for meks
"A Big Mek may take items from the Mek Weapons, Melee Weapons, Runts & Squigs, Orky Know-wots and/or Gifts of Gork and Mork lists."
Mob rule is replaced by the D6 roll, yes.
Kustom Mega Slugga is a thing.
A Big Mek with mega armour can take one of the following
- Tellyport blasta Tellyporta blasta is the back mouned thing I've been describing and seems... uh, situational at best? Very short range weapon but causes instant death on a 6 wound. Rolling a 6 on AP causes a penetrating hit regardless of AV.
- Kustom force field
- Shock attack gun roll of double 6 is vortex!!!
- KFF can be combined with mega armour and bikes, Shock attack gun seems to be combinable with bikes.
- Git finda on SAG mek?
Relics: Gifts of Gork and Mork
Da Dead Shiny Shoota 6 shots twinlinked shoota, rolls of 1 hit one of your own units
Da Finkin’ Kap gives your warlord an additional trait from the strategic list.
Da Fixer Upperz
Da Lucky Stikk
Headwoppa’s Killchoppa is a +2 str, AP5, rending choppa that beheads on a roll of 6 (insta death).
Warboss Gazbag’s Blitzbike has an AP3 deff gun on it
D6 Result
1 If the unit is locked in combat, it passes the Morale check or Pinning test. If the unit is not locked in combat, it fails.
2-3 If the unit includes one or more Ork characters (including Independent Characters), it suffers D6 Strength 4 AP- hits, and is then treated as if it had passed the Morale check or Pinning test.
4-6 If the unit has 10 or more models, it suffers D6 Strength 4 AP- hits, and is then treated as if it had passed the Morale check or Pinning test. The hits are Randomly Allocated. If the unit has fewer than 10 models, it fails the Morale check or Pinning test.
Stompa in as super heavy
Battle Wagon up 20 points.
Killkannon still lowers transport on BW
Attack squig nerfed to 1 reroll in melee per turn
Tankbustas can shoot at whatever they like, and Bustas and Burnas can take dedicated trukks
Kommandos get Stealth, no point hike
Ramshackle got clobbered.. 6+ save when you take a pen, if successful downgrade to glance
Buggies in units of 5, gained outflank and a minor point decrease.
Rule for planks is a little complicated. If you get out of open topped and declare a charge, add 2 to the charge range
Deffrolla gains AP4 and loses half the hits
Lootas Heavy Support and cheaper (5 points less per squad)
Kans come in 6 packs, NO twin guns, NO Troop choice option, have special morale rule
If you take an Ork Warband detachment, you can Waaaagh every turn after the first
Weirdboys gain a Warp Charge point if there are 10 or more models with the 'ere we go rule (Pretty much any Ork from what I've seen) in 12" but has to take a psychic save or take a hit.
Power of the Waaagh! and Daemonlogy disciplines.
Can be upgraded to Psyker level 2.
Ork psychic powers are all cool. Either high strength, or teleport, large blast etc.
Primaris power is Frazzle (Blast witchfire).
'Eadbanger is now a focussed witchfire.
Warpath is a self blessing
Da jump is what used to be 'ere we go.
Killbolt is a beam attack.
Power vomit is a template witchfire.
Da Krunch is a barrage witchfire.
Cheap IWND on vehicles (5 points on Kans, 10 on dreds)
Painboy is IC, so put him where you need him, can take a bike.
Dedi transports available for burnas and tank bustas now
Warboss/Bigmek Mega Armor Kit is a thing
Ork boys cost 1 less point, but Shoota is 1 pt ugrade now
Thanks for this, now we can playtest these rules and do some armybuilding!
Being half asleep/ awake am I right that under 7th ed rules you can take as many detachments as you want?
On that basis could you take 2 standard FoC worth of stuff provided you had 1 HQ and 2 troops per FoC? In doing so that would be totally legit or is it frowned upon?
I was thinking of having a "warboss" FoC and a "dreadmob" FoC (all using standard ork dex) fluffy and attempting not to cheese but with so many walkers and so much dakka (and still want some big gunz) unsure how else it could be fit in,
There are some things that got clear cost reductions like bikes and deffkoptas, plus the old big guns of all things. There is also the cheese, like re-rolling 2+ armour saves. New mob rule seems to benefit trukk boyz, but the trukks now will deal 150% as many wounds in the explosion as they previously did.
All in all, I feel this codex is a clear downgrade from the old one, with no quality or inspiration present. Just as was feared and foretold. GW is clearly shoveling out product as fast a possible.
rtb02 wrote: Being half asleep/ awake am I right that under 7th ed rules you can take as many detachments as you want?
On that basis could you take 2 standard FoC worth of stuff provided you had 1 HQ and 2 troops per FoC? In doing so that would be totally legit or is it frowned upon?
I was thinking of having a "warboss" FoC and a "dreadmob" FoC (all using standard ork dex) fluffy and attempting not to cheese but with so many walkers and so much dakka (and still want some big gunz) unsure how else it could be fit in,
thanks in advance!
In 7th ed. Unbound you could take an army of pure Gretchin if you wanted. So your lists would be completely legit.
rtb02 wrote: Being half asleep/ awake am I right that under 7th ed rules you can take as many detachments as you want?
On that basis could you take 2 standard FoC worth of stuff provided you had 1 HQ and 2 troops per FoC? In doing so that would be totally legit or is it frowned upon?
I was thinking of having a "warboss" FoC and a "dreadmob" FoC (all using standard ork dex) fluffy and attempting not to cheese but with so many walkers and so much dakka (and still want some big gunz) unsure how else it could be fit in,
thanks in advance!
Yup, you can take as many detachments as you have points for. A lot of people are trying to house rule it so you can can only use 1 Combined Arms detachment, but that is hogwash, and will become more ludicrous with every new codex and detachment released.
Rules say you can, and don't feel bad about doing it.
Yup, you can take as many detachments as you have points for. A lot of people are trying to house rule it so you can can only use 1 Combined Arms detachment, but that is hogwash, and will become more ludicrous with every new codex and detachment released.
Rules say you can, and don't feel bad about doing it.
Allowing only one detachment would hamstring orks even more than the codex already will
Otherwise unchanged, according to a certain ork drunk on cider
that doesnt mean he is a lord of war thou there must done somethign to make he in the leagues of a titan is he a giganture creature
He is listed as Lord of War choice. Taking him does not use a HQ slot, your opponent gets +1 to seize and taking wounds off him grants victory points. That's all there is to it.
This is what I don't get. Ghazzghul is THAT awesome that the opponent should have extra victory points from killing him?
That being said, combined with the Warlord Trait that allows you to re-roll failed Saves, along with the Waaaaagh! every turn (assuming Ghaz still has a 2++ during Waaagh!) that could be... impressive.
streamdragon wrote: Yeah guys, totally chill! I mean it's not like people have listed known issues or anything!
It definitely seems our characters will be in some trouble when challenged due to the lack of invulns. Thankfully warbosses are pretty tough so they should be able to survive what other characters can dish out and then just instant kill them with a PK. Nobs I would hesitate to accept challenges with - you'll need the bosspole to keep the unit in check, so why risk losing it fighting just one 'umie? Shooting shouldn't be as big of a problem, just use LO,S! a lot.
I don't think anybody was saying this new book was flawless, but it's what we have now and crying about it certainly won't help anyone. Just give it some time, we haven't even seen everything yet. Good lists will emerge. Until then, let's try to stay positive and figure out ways around the weaknesses we have.
If it were not for Waagh!, Warbosses would be a waste of points. Challenges? Try monstrous creatures, Force Weapons or any other ID route; you can either decline the challenge and your boss sits around with his dakka up his fungus, or you can accept and pray to mork and gork that your opponent's dice just completely crap the bed. No option for invulnerable saves on characters is insane. Is there another non-Tyranid (because they're at least MCHQ slots!) army that can't protect its leaders like this? I honestly can't think of one:
SM of all kinds: Iron Halo
Tau: Shield Generators/Drones
Eldar: Rune Armor
Necrons: Phase Shifter
D. Eldar: Shadow Field
AM: Rosarius
SoB: Rosarius
CSM: Dark Aura
Chaos Daemons: Daemonic Aura
Did I miss anyone? A Painboy in with your Warboss has become an auto-include if you want him to have a chance of doing anything. Are painboys tough? Pretty sure they're T4 W2 like a nob? Good luck with that. Precision shots is a thing as well, though thankfully rarer than it used to be.
Nobs are basically bosspole bitches. Like you said you can't really use them for fear of them dying; so now my glorious Ork leader who should be wanting to get stuck in is hiding in the back, hoping he can smack his buddy with a bosspole. Narrative Forged! So Cinematic! Waaagh! indeed!
Saying "Just fill up FoCs with Grotz!" is a cop-out. It's basically attempting to handwave away serious issues with the book and pretend that Grots will solve it. They won't. They're basically a tax on your other units at this point, since a unit of 10 grots won't reliably do anything other than die, most likely giving up VP in the process. Goody.
This book is far from flawless; I think it's units with no flaws are the exceptions, rather than the rules, given so many units had flaws that needed correcting. Guess how many of them saw those corrections. Because the information so far suggests pretty much 0 of them. Did we get some good stuff? Sure, we did. The new Mek Gunz answer some of the armies overall issues like Skyfire, so I'm sure we'll see tons of them. Did we get anything close to the update that people were hoping for, after 3 frelling editions? If you answer yes, you have exceedingly low expectations. Congrats I guess.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Toburk wrote: There are some things that got clear cost reductions like bikes and deffkoptas, plus the old big guns of all things. There is also the cheese, like re-rolling 2+ armour saves. New mob rule seems to benefit trukk boyz, but the trukks now will deal 150% as many wounds in the explosion as they previously did.
All in all, I feel this codex is a clear downgrade from the old one, with no quality or inspiration present. Just as was feared and foretold. GW is clearly shoveling out product as fast a possible.
Let's be clear on a few things:
Re-rolling 2+ armor saves isn't cheese, because so many things can and will ignore 2+ armor saves. This isn't like Invulnerable save rerolls, or cover saves against armies with no Ignores Cover options.
New Mob Rule doesn't benefit anyone, really. You used to be fearless above 10; you no longer are. Hell, have we even confirmed that it still increases LD based on model count? Or are we stuck with LD 7 on Boyz unless you stick an IC into the group?
I just feel like GW is fixing all the wrong parts (again, like seeing a painboy for your missing leg and getting a kustom shoota arm).
Winning Ork armies focus on shooting! Let's make more shooty models, then have Adam Troke tell you that Orks can win with shooting, not just melee!
Buggy models are ancient. Let's not produce any new model, and let you take more of them!
Let's make more units be able to take Trukks, so we can sell more! Now let's make them more dangerous to use!
We created Unbound armies so that you can field the army you want! We also reduced the options in Battleforged armies to reduce your ability to do so!
Ork characters were having trouble surviving in close combat, so we reduced their invulnerable saves!
We are going to tell you how badass Ghazghull is, and then make him less impressive!
It's not that I'm totally disappointed in this release. I like all of the new models, and I will be buying them. But I'm just dismayed by GW's utter inability to look at their game, diagnose what is weak or failing with it, and replace those parts. The last codex wasn't bad. Neither was the one before it. But it could easily have been made better with some focused changes, and then you could have added on new models like appetizers and dessert. Instead, random changes! Waaagh!
streamdragon wrote: Yeah guys, totally chill! I mean it's not like people have listed known issues or anything!
It definitely seems our characters will be in some trouble when challenged due to the lack of invulns. Thankfully warbosses are pretty tough so they should be able to survive what other characters can dish out and then just instant kill them with a PK. Nobs I would hesitate to accept challenges with - you'll need the bosspole to keep the unit in check, so why risk losing it fighting just one 'umie? Shooting shouldn't be as big of a problem, just use LO,S! a lot.
I don't think anybody was saying this new book was flawless, but it's what we have now and crying about it certainly won't help anyone. Just give it some time, we haven't even seen everything yet. Good lists will emerge. Until then, let's try to stay positive and figure out ways around the weaknesses we have.
If it were not for Waagh!, Warbosses would be a waste of points. Challenges? Try monstrous creatures, Force Weapons or any other ID route; you can either decline the challenge and your boss sits around with his dakka up his fungus, or you can accept and pray to mork and gork that your opponent's dice just completely crap the bed. No option for invulnerable saves on characters is insane. Is there another non-Tyranid (because they're at least MCHQ slots!) army that can't protect its leaders like this? I honestly can't think of one:
SM of all kinds: Iron Halo
Tau: Shield Generators/Drones
Eldar: Rune Armor
Necrons: Phase Shifter
D. Eldar: Shadow Field
AM: Rosarius
SoB: Rosarius
CSM: Dark Aura
Chaos Daemons: Daemonic Aura
Did I miss anyone? A Painboy in with your Warboss has become an auto-include if you want him to have a chance of doing anything. Are painboys tough? Pretty sure they're T4 W2 like a nob? Good luck with that. Precision shots is a thing as well, though thankfully rarer than it used to be.
Nobs are basically bosspole bitches. Like you said you can't really use them for fear of them dying; so now my glorious Ork leader who should be wanting to get stuck in is hiding in the back, hoping he can smack his buddy with a bosspole. Narrative Forged! So Cinematic! Waaagh! indeed!
Saying "Just fill up FoCs with Grotz!" is a cop-out. It's basically attempting to handwave away serious issues with the book and pretend that Grots will solve it. They won't. They're basically a tax on your other units at this point, since a unit of 10 grots won't reliably do anything other than die, most likely giving up VP in the process. Goody.
This book is far from flawless; I think it's units with no flaws are the exceptions, rather than the rules, given so many units had flaws that needed correcting. Guess how many of them saw those corrections. Because the information so far suggests pretty much 0 of them. Did we get some good stuff? Sure, we did. The new Mek Gunz answer some of the armies overall issues like Skyfire, so I'm sure we'll see tons of them. Did we get anything close to the update that people were hoping for, after 3 frelling editions? If you answer yes, you have exceedingly low expectations. Congrats I guess.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Toburk wrote: There are some things that got clear cost reductions like bikes and deffkoptas, plus the old big guns of all things. There is also the cheese, like re-rolling 2+ armour saves. New mob rule seems to benefit trukk boyz, but the trukks now will deal 150% as many wounds in the explosion as they previously did.
All in all, I feel this codex is a clear downgrade from the old one, with no quality or inspiration present. Just as was feared and foretold. GW is clearly shoveling out product as fast a possible.
Let's be clear on a few things:
Re-rolling 2+ armor saves isn't cheese, because so many things can and will ignore 2+ armor saves. This isn't like Invulnerable save rerolls, or cover saves against armies with no Ignores Cover options.
New Mob Rule doesn't benefit anyone, really. You used to be fearless above 10; you no longer are. Hell, have we even confirmed that it still increases LD based on model count? Or are we stuck with LD 7 on Boyz unless you stick an IC into the group?
Thank you so much for putting my frustrations into a legible and coherent format.
I think that after playing with the codex a few times people will see that it is a definite upgrade. Waaagh is hugely upgraded! The old waaagh is now ere we go and can be used each and every turn. If you don't understand why this alone makes the new codex way better than the old something is wrong with you. The new waaagh is what every other assault army has wanted and has not gotten. we can run and then assault... What is not to love about that? The new mob rule is kind of a nerf but honestly it needed it. Tons of fearless mobs was almost silly. Now mob rule is actually a benefit to the smaller mobz. Everything got CHEAPER! well except boyz. Now we can take as many ard boyz squads as we want. so we can actually buy a save for our boyz mobz! This is a huge upgrade!!!! Mek gunz are awesome, flash gitz awesome, gorkamorka naughts awesome, buggies are awsomer! 5 outflanking heavy flamers??? Good luck surviving that anything! Now with the stompa in our actual codex it will be pretty hard for anyone to tell you that you can't use it. Maybe you cant use your regular codex entries then (looking at you riptide!) There are so many good things about this codex. The only reason that people are upset is that the lists that dominated 5th are not viable in 7th. Well that is the way that it goes. That is the goal of GW they want you to buy a new army full of new units!
rothrich wrote: I think that after playing with the codex a few times people will see that it is a definite upgrade. Waaagh is hugely upgraded! The old waaagh is now ere we go and can be used each and every turn. If you don't understand why this alone makes the new codex way better than the old something is wrong with you. The new waaagh is what every other assault army has wanted and has not gotten. we can run and then assault... What is not to love about that? The new mob rule is kind of a nerf but honestly it needed it. Tons of fearless mobs was almost silly. Now mob rule is actually a benefit to the smaller mobz. Everything got CHEAPER! well except boyz. Now we can take as many ard boyz squads as we want. so we can actually buy a save for our boyz mobz! This is a huge upgrade!!!! Mek gunz are awesome, flash gitz awesome, gorkamorka naughts awesome, buggies are awsomer! 5 outflanking heavy flamers??? Good luck surviving that anything! Now with the stompa in our actual codex it will be pretty hard for anyone to tell you that you can't use it. Maybe you cant use your regular codex entries then (looking at you riptide!) There are so many good things about this codex. The only reason that people are upset is that the lists that dominated 5th are not viable in 7th. Well that is the way that it goes. That is the goal of GW they want you to buy a new army full of new units!
I would agree with the post above. I think all the doomsayers need to take a deep breath and calm themselves. This is just a game after all. Perhaps play a game or 2 or at least watch a couple of battle reports before you cash in your chips.
On second thought, go ahead and cash in your chips, I am sure you will find players who will take models off your hands at steep discounts. Be sure and PM me if you are looking to unload some of your models!
Toburk wrote: There are some things that got clear cost reductions like bikes and deffkoptas, plus the old big guns of all things. There is also the cheese, like re-rolling 2+ armour saves. New mob rule seems to benefit trukk boyz, but the trukks now will deal 150% as many wounds in the explosion as they previously did.
All in all, I feel this codex is a clear downgrade from the old one, with no quality or inspiration present. Just as was feared and foretold. GW is clearly shoveling out product as fast a possible.
Let's be clear on a few things:
Re-rolling 2+ armor saves isn't cheese, because so many things can and will ignore 2+ armor saves. This isn't like Invulnerable save rerolls, or cover saves against armies with no Ignores Cover options.
It's not cheese, but it's the best this codex seems to get. I love how they just had to make sure that the model was removed from the table if it fails the re-rolls too.
Nothing that was broken was fixed. Things that worked were broken. Some things got minor inconsequential cost changes (lol @ lootas). While the new waagghh is good, it is now in a rather sub-par codex rather than in the codex were it would have been welcome.
Toburk wrote: There are some things that got clear cost reductions like bikes and deffkoptas, plus the old big guns of all things. There is also the cheese, like re-rolling 2+ armour saves. New mob rule seems to benefit trukk boyz, but the trukks now will deal 150% as many wounds in the explosion as they previously did.
All in all, I feel this codex is a clear downgrade from the old one, with no quality or inspiration present. Just as was feared and foretold. GW is clearly shoveling out product as fast a possible.
Let's be clear on a few things:
Re-rolling 2+ armor saves isn't cheese, because so many things can and will ignore 2+ armor saves. This isn't like Invulnerable save rerolls, or cover saves against armies with no Ignores Cover options.
It's not cheese, but it's the best this codex seems to get. I love how they just had to make sure that the model was removed from the table if it fails the re-rolls too.
Nothing that was broken was fixed. Things that worked were broken. Some things got minor inconsequential cost changes (lol @ lootas). While the new waagghh is good, it is now in a rather sub-par codex rather than in the codex were it would have been welcome.
I'm neither super enthusiastic nor super disappointed, but I think we should wait until we played a few games with the new Codex before claiming it's the best or the worst Codex ever made.
Some things have improved and others have worsen, but so many have changed that we will need some time to figure out how to play with Orks in 7th edition.
Also, let's be honest: nobody will ever be perfectly happy about any Codex: GW will always produce them NOT exactly as any of us would like them to.
That's normal, and should be expected.
But I don't think there's any reason to panic.
As far as I am concerned, I am a bit disappointed they've removed Wazdakka, but I could use the model I made for him as a Warboss on that new bike relic now.
What about my 17 other warbikers? I can still field them, in a Battleforged or Unbound army, so I'm fine with it. They're not scoring units but they are still full of dakka, and that's all that matters to me!
While the overall power level seems to have stayed constant or dropped a little, at least the internal balance has been fixed a bit.
Grots and slugga boys are now worth taking instead of shoota boys.
Rokkits are generally worthwhile compared to Big Shootas. If I'm reading it right, Tankbustas are now 2 points less than Lootas, so they are comparable in effectiveness.
Dreads got better compared to Kans.
Battlewagons are no longer no-brainer choices.
Zzapp Guns are almost as good as Kannons.
All aircraft now seem to be roughly on a par.
Kommandos are at least semi-viable now.
Bikers seem like a good choice compared to Nob Bikers.
Big Meks on Bikes have some purpose.
Did Deffkoptas get a nerf to their stats (losing the extra wound maybe) or are they insanely good value now?
Perfect Organism wrote: While the overall power level seems to have stayed constant or dropped a little, at least the internal balance has been fixed a bit.
Grots and slugga boys are now worth taking instead of shoota boys.
Rokkits are generally worthwhile compared to Big Shootas. If I'm reading it right, Tankbustas are now 2 points less than Lootas, so they are comparable in effectiveness.
Dreads got better compared to Kans.
Battlewagons are no longer no-brainer choices.
Zzapp Guns are almost as good as Kannons.
All aircraft now seem to be roughly on a par.
Kommandos are at least semi-viable now.
Bikers seem like a good choice compared to Nob Bikers.
Big Meks on Bikes have some purpose.
Did Deffkoptas get a nerf to their stats (losing the extra wound maybe) or are they insanely good value now?
Deffkoptas got no nerfs. Just free changes to rokkits.
The relic that allows the re-rolls for to-hit, to-wound, and saves removes the model if it fails three re-rolls in a turn.
So even if you make all the FNP rolls that come after the failed armour saves, it will still kill the warboss/bigmek even if you only use the re-rolls for armour saves.
So, if (and that's a big if) the information I've cobbled together is correct, it looks like Tankbustas got better in several minor ways which might make them a lot more viable:
They took a 20% points drop.
They no longer compete with Lootas in the Elite slot.
They have easy access to a Mek to keep their vehicle repaired.
They can take a transport (not sure what... just a trukk or can they get a BW?)
Bomb squigs are slightly better.
Painboy gives them some option for survivability.
Slight improvement with the new Glory Hogs.
On the other hand, we have several better options for handling vehicles now; Mek Guns, Blitza Bommas, Deffkoptas or just spamming rokkits all seem pretty viable.
And I don't think you can just turn Tankbustas into Meks anymore. You take Meks as slotless HQ choices, limit of 1 per Big Mek you have. Painboys will definitely be all over, but each Painboy is an HQ slot not going to a Big Mek or Warboss.
I look forward to 10 point Tankbustas and Tankhammers being AP3, but overall I think you're putting too many eggs in that AV10 open-topped basket.
How much is a little mek now anyway? Do they still have the option to take a rokkit or big shoota?
It seems like they expect you to put meks in your mek guns units, but I don't see why you would. Ld 7, I guess, but for a few more points you can get a Big Mek who offers proper leadership.
Does anybody has the Chaos Codex at hand and can number a couple of units or characters which are good in CC?
I think that, with the lost of any viable invulnerable save, Orks characters do not stand any chance to actually punch a fight against any other good CC units/characters, so the option seems to ally with Chaos and let them play in that field. Unorky, sure, but I still do not understand losing Cybork bodies to the worhtless 6+ FnP.
I will be modelling Chaos characters as Ork-count as and use those rules.
streamdragon wrote: And I don't think you can just turn Tankbustas into Meks anymore. You take Meks as slotless HQ choices, limit of 1 per Big Mek you have.
You never could swap a tankbusta for a mek. That was one of the reasons they were inferior to lootas. So being able to take any meks at all is an improvement. If Meks are the same cost as before and they have rokkits and the rokkits are 5 points less than before (like every other rokkit option seems to be), then it's pretty much like getting free mek's tools on one tankbusta.
streamdragon wrote: And I don't think you can just turn Tankbustas into Meks anymore. You take Meks as slotless HQ choices, limit of 1 per Big Mek you have.
You never could swap a tankbusta for a mek. That was one of the reasons they were inferior to lootas. So being able to take any meks at all is an improvement. If Meks are the same cost as before and they have rokkits and the rokkits are 5 points less than before (like every other rokkit option seems to be), then it's pretty much like getting free mek's tools on one tankbusta.
Ha, whoops. Burnas and Lootas could so I guess I just assumed Tank Bustas could also. I still think your Meks will generally be busy in places besides Tankbustas (or at least, Tankbustas in a trukk). Regular Meks can't get KFF or SAG, so putting a regular Mek with the Mek Gunz might be a better option than wasting the SAG on your Mek Gunz. (Depending on the particular choice of Gunz, I guess).
Perfect Organism wrote: So, if (and that's a big if) the information I've cobbled together is correct, it looks like Tankbustas got better in several minor ways which might make them a lot more viable:
They took a 20% points drop.
They no longer compete with Lootas in the Elite slot.
They have easy access to a Mek to keep their vehicle repaired.
They can take a transport (not sure what... just a trukk or can they get a BW?)
Bomb squigs are slightly better.
Painboy gives them some option for survivability.
Slight improvement with the new Glory Hogs.
On the other hand, we have several better options for handling vehicles now; Mek Guns, Blitza Bommas, Deffkoptas or just spamming rokkits all seem pretty viable.
rothrich wrote: I think that after playing with the codex a few times people will see that it is a definite upgrade. Waaagh is hugely upgraded! The old waaagh is now ere we go and can be used each and every turn. If you don't understand why this alone makes the new codex way better than the old something is wrong with you. The new waaagh is what every other assault army has wanted and has not gotten. we can run and then assault... What is not to love about that? The new mob rule is kind of a nerf but honestly it needed it. Tons of fearless mobs was almost silly. Now mob rule is actually a benefit to the smaller mobz. Everything got CHEAPER! well except boyz. Now we can take as many ard boyz squads as we want. so we can actually buy a save for our boyz mobz! This is a huge upgrade!!!! Mek gunz are awesome, flash gitz awesome, gorkamorka naughts awesome, buggies are awsomer! 5 outflanking heavy flamers??? Good luck surviving that anything! Now with the stompa in our actual codex it will be pretty hard for anyone to tell you that you can't use it. Maybe you cant use your regular codex entries then (looking at you riptide!) There are so many good things about this codex. The only reason that people are upset is that the lists that dominated 5th are not viable in 7th. Well that is the way that it goes. That is the goal of GW they want you to buy a new army full of new units!
After reading the leaks and summing it all up I can actually agree with this after a few deep breaths, we lost some kewl things and characters but gained alot too. The whole issue with 6th was that you couldnt get into assault with boyz anymore, "assault is dead". Well with run/assault and ere we go we can do that again. Boarding planks on wagons are going to be a huge deal (with wagons being more survivable), a wagon loaded with a painboy and 'Ard boyz could be a scary thing again and we can bring multiples. On Waaagh! turn thats an average assault distance of 24 1/2 inches! (6 for vehicle, 6 for guys getting out, 3.5 for run, 7 for assault distance rolled + 2" for boarding plank) Does no one else think this is awesome? And if thraka still gives us the auto 6 (idk if he does) that gives us a distance of 27 inches! And thats before the reroll of 'ere we go. You say they didnt address the issue and the issue for me was not being able to get there and now I feel I can get there. Hell even if Im not in a transport my average assault distance 18 1/2 inches before the reroll. If yall are mad because you dont see an auto win button go play one of the net lists and be done with it. Buy your victories with Transcendent c'tans and eldar titans and feel awesome about yourself. If you wanna have to think your game through then stop bitching, stop yelling at your mom for meat loaf, and come get in the thick of it.
streamdragon wrote: Yeah guys, totally chill! I mean it's not like people have listed known issues or anything!
It definitely seems our characters will be in some trouble when challenged due to the lack of invulns. Thankfully warbosses are pretty tough so they should be able to survive what other characters can dish out and then just instant kill them with a PK. Nobs I would hesitate to accept challenges with - you'll need the bosspole to keep the unit in check, so why risk losing it fighting just one 'umie? Shooting shouldn't be as big of a problem, just use LO,S! a lot.
I don't think anybody was saying this new book was flawless, but it's what we have now and crying about it certainly won't help anyone. Just give it some time, we haven't even seen everything yet. Good lists will emerge. Until then, let's try to stay positive and figure out ways around the weaknesses we have.
If it were not for Waagh!, Warbosses would be a waste of points. Challenges? Try monstrous creatures, Force Weapons or any other ID route; you can either decline the challenge and your boss sits around with his dakka up his fungus, or you can accept and pray to mork and gork that your opponent's dice just completely crap the bed. No option for invulnerable saves on characters is insane. Is there another non-Tyranid (because they're at least MCHQ slots!) army that can't protect its leaders like this? I honestly can't think of one:
SM of all kinds: Iron Halo
Tau: Shield Generators/Drones
Eldar: Rune Armor
Necrons: Phase Shifter
D. Eldar: Shadow Field
AM: Rosarius
SoB: Rosarius
CSM: Dark Aura
Chaos Daemons: Daemonic Aura
Did I miss anyone? A Painboy in with your Warboss has become an auto-include if you want him to have a chance of doing anything. Are painboys tough? Pretty sure they're T4 W2 like a nob? Good luck with that. Precision shots is a thing as well, though thankfully rarer than it used to be.
Nobs are basically bosspole bitches. Like you said you can't really use them for fear of them dying; so now my glorious Ork leader who should be wanting to get stuck in is hiding in the back, hoping he can smack his buddy with a bosspole. Narrative Forged! So Cinematic! Waaagh! indeed!
Saying "Just fill up FoCs with Grotz!" is a cop-out. It's basically attempting to handwave away serious issues with the book and pretend that Grots will solve it. They won't. They're basically a tax on your other units at this point, since a unit of 10 grots won't reliably do anything other than die, most likely giving up VP in the process. Goody.
This book is far from flawless; I think it's units with no flaws are the exceptions, rather than the rules, given so many units had flaws that needed correcting. Guess how many of them saw those corrections. Because the information so far suggests pretty much 0 of them. Did we get some good stuff? Sure, we did. The new Mek Gunz answer some of the armies overall issues like Skyfire, so I'm sure we'll see tons of them. Did we get anything close to the update that people were hoping for, after 3 frelling editions? If you answer yes, you have exceedingly low expectations. Congrats I guess.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Toburk wrote: There are some things that got clear cost reductions like bikes and deffkoptas, plus the old big guns of all things. There is also the cheese, like re-rolling 2+ armour saves. New mob rule seems to benefit trukk boyz, but the trukks now will deal 150% as many wounds in the explosion as they previously did.
All in all, I feel this codex is a clear downgrade from the old one, with no quality or inspiration present. Just as was feared and foretold. GW is clearly shoveling out product as fast a possible.
Let's be clear on a few things:
Re-rolling 2+ armor saves isn't cheese, because so many things can and will ignore 2+ armor saves. This isn't like Invulnerable save rerolls, or cover saves against armies with no Ignores Cover options.
New Mob Rule doesn't benefit anyone, really. You used to be fearless above 10; you no longer are. Hell, have we even confirmed that it still increases LD based on model count? Or are we stuck with LD 7 on Boyz unless you stick an IC into the group?
Melcavuk, thank you ever so much for patiently answering everyones questions!
I was at my local GW store this afternoon picking up a copy of WDW when the manager mentions that the codex was going to drop in 10 minutes. So, I wait around for the codex to drop and pre-ordered the Warboss Edition as soon as the link was up on the GW site. I leave the GW store as happy as a dog in a fire hydrant factory secure in the knowledge that I just made my first limited edition purchase from GW and that I'm the proud new owner of the much vaunted Warboss Edition Ork Codex. I spend the next few hours running errands, all the while imaging what manner of Orky goodness awaited me within the precious pages of this mighty tome.
Then I came home ... eagerly came here to DakkaDakka to read this thread ... and my mood went from one of joy and elation, to one of disbelief, sadness and eventually anger.
After waiting for an updated codex through three editions and six years, GW graces us with this abomination. WTFGW?
Now I feel like a fething idiot after having pre-ordered the Warboss Edition this afternoon. GW, may the fleas of a thousand Sqigs infest your crotch!
Orks are my only army and have been so since the beginning of 3rd edition. I won't give up on them now despite the pile of Sqiggoth Gak GW is trying to pass off as our new codex. My love of our beloved Greenskins is too strong and I'll WAAAGH! on in spite of GW.
... END OF RANT, RETURNING TO OUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED PROGRAMMING ...
streamdragon wrote: Yeah guys, totally chill! I mean it's not like people have listed known issues or anything!
It definitely seems our characters will be in some trouble when challenged due to the lack of invulns. Thankfully warbosses are pretty tough so they should be able to survive what other characters can dish out and then just instant kill them with a PK. Nobs I would hesitate to accept challenges with - you'll need the bosspole to keep the unit in check, so why risk losing it fighting just one 'umie? Shooting shouldn't be as big of a problem, just use LO,S! a lot.
I don't think anybody was saying this new book was flawless, but it's what we have now and crying about it certainly won't help anyone. Just give it some time, we haven't even seen everything yet. Good lists will emerge. Until then, let's try to stay positive and figure out ways around the weaknesses we have.
If it were not for Waagh!, Warbosses would be a waste of points. Challenges? Try monstrous creatures, Force Weapons or any other ID route; you can either decline the challenge and your boss sits around with his dakka up his fungus, or you can accept and pray to mork and gork that your opponent's dice just completely crap the bed. No option for invulnerable saves on characters is insane. Is there another non-Tyranid (because they're at least MCHQ slots!) army that can't protect its leaders like this? I honestly can't think of one:
SM of all kinds: Iron Halo
Tau: Shield Generators/Drones
Eldar: Rune Armor
Necrons: Phase Shifter
D. Eldar: Shadow Field
AM: Rosarius
SoB: Rosarius
CSM: Dark Aura
Chaos Daemons: Daemonic Aura
Did I miss anyone? A Painboy in with your Warboss has become an auto-include if you want him to have a chance of doing anything. Are painboys tough? Pretty sure they're T4 W2 like a nob? Good luck with that. Precision shots is a thing as well, though thankfully rarer than it used to be.
Nobs are basically bosspole bitches. Like you said you can't really use them for fear of them dying; so now my glorious Ork leader who should be wanting to get stuck in is hiding in the back, hoping he can smack his buddy with a bosspole. Narrative Forged! So Cinematic! Waaagh! indeed!
Saying "Just fill up FoCs with Grotz!" is a cop-out. It's basically attempting to handwave away serious issues with the book and pretend that Grots will solve it. They won't. They're basically a tax on your other units at this point, since a unit of 10 grots won't reliably do anything other than die, most likely giving up VP in the process. Goody.
This book is far from flawless; I think it's units with no flaws are the exceptions, rather than the rules, given so many units had flaws that needed correcting. Guess how many of them saw those corrections. Because the information so far suggests pretty much 0 of them. Did we get some good stuff? Sure, we did. The new Mek Gunz answer some of the armies overall issues like Skyfire, so I'm sure we'll see tons of them. Did we get anything close to the update that people were hoping for, after 3 frelling editions? If you answer yes, you have exceedingly low expectations. Congrats I guess.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Toburk wrote: There are some things that got clear cost reductions like bikes and deffkoptas, plus the old big guns of all things. There is also the cheese, like re-rolling 2+ armour saves. New mob rule seems to benefit trukk boyz, but the trukks now will deal 150% as many wounds in the explosion as they previously did.
All in all, I feel this codex is a clear downgrade from the old one, with no quality or inspiration present. Just as was feared and foretold. GW is clearly shoveling out product as fast a possible.
Let's be clear on a few things:
Re-rolling 2+ armor saves isn't cheese, because so many things can and will ignore 2+ armor saves. This isn't like Invulnerable save rerolls, or cover saves against armies with no Ignores Cover options.
New Mob Rule doesn't benefit anyone, really. You used to be fearless above 10; you no longer are. Hell, have we even confirmed that it still increases LD based on model count? Or are we stuck with LD 7 on Boyz unless you stick an IC into the group?
Melcavuk, thank you ever so much for patiently answering everyones questions!
I was at my local GW store this afternoon picking up a copy of WDW when the manager mentions that the codex was going to drop in 10 minutes. So, I wait around for the codex to drop and pre-ordered the Warboss Edition as soon as the link was up on the GW site. I leave the GW store as happy as a dog in a fire hydrant factory secure in the knowledge that I just made my first limited edition purchase from GW and that I'm the proud new owner of the much vaunted Warboss Edition Ork Codex. I spend the next few hours running errands, all the while imaging what manner of Orky goodness awaited me within the precious pages of this mighty tome.
Then I came home ... eagerly came here to DakkaDakka to read this thread ... and my mood went from one of joy and elation, to one of disbelief, sadness and eventually anger.
After waiting for an updated codex through three editions and six years, GW graces us with this abomination. WTFGW?
Now I feel like a fething idiot after having pre-ordered the Warboss Edition this afternoon. GW, may the fleas of a thousand Sqigs infest your crotch!
Orks are my only army and have been so since the beginning of 3rd edition. I won't give up on them now despite the pile of Sqiggoth Gak GW is trying to pass off as our new codex. My love of our beloved Greenskins is too strong and I'll WAAAGH! on in spite of GW.
... END OF RANT, RETURNING TO OUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED PROGRAMMING ...
Before you wage Waaagh! on GW, playtest the rules! Might be better than you think.
I was at my local GW store this afternoon picking up a copy of WDW when the manager mentions that the codex was going to drop in 10 minutes. So, I wait around for the codex to drop and pre-ordered the Warboss Edition as soon as the link was up on the GW site. I leave the GW store as happy as a dog in a fire hydrant factory secure in the knowledge that I just made my first limited edition purchase from GW and that I'm the proud new owner of the much vaunted Warboss Edition Ork Codex. I spend the next few hours running errands, all the while imaging what manner of Orky goodness awaited me within the precious pages of this mighty tome.
Then I came home ... eagerly came here to DakkaDakka to read this thread ... and my mood went from one of joy and elation, to one of disbelief, sadness and eventually anger.
After waiting for an updated codex through three editions and six years, GW graces us with this abomination. WTFGW?
Now I feel like a fething idiot after having pre-ordered the Warboss Edition this afternoon. GW, may the fleas of a thousand Sqigs infest your crotch!
Orks are my only army and have been so since the beginning of 3rd edition. I won't give up on them now despite the pile of Sqiggoth Gak GW is trying to pass off as our new codex. My love of our beloved Greenskins is too strong and I'll WAAAGH! on in spite of GW.
... END OF RANT, RETURNING TO OUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED PROGRAMMING ...
Just cancel your preorder until other people playtest and review it.
BooBoo wrote: Does anybody has the Chaos Codex at hand and can number a couple of units or characters which are good in CC?
I think that, with the lost of any viable invulnerable save, Orks characters do not stand any chance to actually punch a fight against any other good CC units/characters, so the option seems to ally with Chaos and let them play in that field. Unorky, sure, but I still do not understand losing Cybork bodies to the worhtless 6+ FnP.
I will be modelling Chaos characters as Ork-count as and use those rules.
I think Chaos Terminators are pretty much the best close combat unit they have.
Compared to Meganobs:
Relentless instead of S&P.
Cheaper.
Can take Lightning Claws and have decent initiative.
Only one wound each, but free 5+ Invulnerable.
Can get FNP with Mark of Slaanesh and the Icon of Excess, but more expensive than a Painboy. Alternatively, can get +1 T or 4+ Invulnerable.
Leadership 9, can get +1 Leadership or Fearless.
Combi-flamer is inferior to Kombi-skorcha, but Combi-melta is pretty sweet.
Fewer attacks, no furious charge unless you pay for an expensive upgrade.
Can take a Land Raider as a DT or Deep Strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Matt.Kingsley wrote: I must have missed it somewhere, how did rokkits get buffed? I seen it mentioned several times now and I can't find how they were buffed.
I think Chaos Terminators are pretty much the best close combat unit they have.
Compared to Meganobs:
Relentless instead of S&P.
Cheaper.
Can take Lightning Claws and have decent initiative.
Only one wound each, but free 5+ Invulnerable.
Can get FNP with Mark of Slaanesh and the Icon of Excess, but more expensive than a Painboy. Alternatively, can get +1 T or 4+ Invulnerable.
Leadership 9, can get +1 Leadership or Fearless.
Combi-flamer is inferior to Kombi-skorcha, but Combi-melta is pretty sweet.
Fewer attacks, no furious charge unless you pay for an expensive upgrade.
Can take a Land Raider as a DT or Deep Strike.
Thanks a lot for the reply, Perfect Organism. What about their HQ's? Anything worthwile taking in CC from your point of view?
I think Chaos Terminators are pretty much the best close combat unit they have.
Compared to Meganobs:
Relentless instead of S&P.
Cheaper.
Can take Lightning Claws and have decent initiative.
Only one wound each, but free 5+ Invulnerable.
Can get FNP with Mark of Slaanesh and the Icon of Excess, but more expensive than a Painboy. Alternatively, can get +1 T or 4+ Invulnerable.
Leadership 9, can get +1 Leadership or Fearless.
Combi-flamer is inferior to Kombi-skorcha, but Combi-melta is pretty sweet.
Fewer attacks, no furious charge unless you pay for an expensive upgrade.
Can take a Land Raider as a DT or Deep Strike.
Thanks a lot for the reply, Perfect Organism. What about their HQ's? Anything worthwile taking in CC from your point of view?
This is an ork thread not a chaos thread y'all can take the chaos noise to tactics. Stay on topic.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: I must have missed it somewhere, how did rokkits get buffed? I seen it mentioned several times now and I can't find how they were buffed.
Same rules, cheaper cost.
Ah, ok. So it isn't an extra buff to Tankbustas. Either way, I'm liking how the 'bustas are looking, I may actually take them!
Deunstephe wrote: Before you wage Waaagh! on GW, playtest the rules! Might be better than you think.
You're right, but from what I've gathered from reading this thread since the codex dropped, we've got our work cut out for us.
The points drops are great, but the nerfs and omissions have me concerned. It seems that while we get a break in points costs, we're doing so at the expense of survivability. It seems that when you compare units from the last edition/codex to their equivalents in the new edition/codex, larger units are required to attain the same level of survivability (ex: Warbikers, Stormboyz). What this means to me is that in order to attain the same level of survivability, I have to increase the size of these units, hence pay more money to buy more models. This seems to be especially true due to the changes in the Morale, FNP, KFF and Save rules. Also, the changes in our HQ units is troubling in that we won't be able to protect our troops as effectively as we could last edition/codex.
With the changes to Cybork body MANZ have no invul save now? Do they still have inbuilt Cybork from Mega armor? Point change for Manz? Otherwise they weren't that good but got nerfed....
BooBoo wrote: Thanks a lot for the reply, Perfect Organism. What about their HQ's? Anything worthwile taking in CC from your point of view?
Chaos Lord is like a marine captain without an Iron Halo or Chapter Tactics, but significantly cheaper and comes with Fearless.
The Chaos Relics are pretty rubbish, but the generic options are fairly good. You can get a 4+ invulnerable for the points difference with a marine captain, then upgrade it to a 3+ with Mark of Tzeentch for the cost of a Storm Shield on a captain.
You can put him on a bike, but he doesn't make bikers troops and chaos bikers aren't as great as loyalist ones. There are also options for other mounts, including a Jetbike. With Mark of Nurgle on a bike you get to T 6.
Sorcerers have weaker stats than Lords, but can offer buffs (they get Telepathy and Biomancy) and have access to similar options.
Daemon Princes are very scary, but suffer from also being rather vulnerable. T 5 with a 5+ Invulnerable and only a few weak options for defensive upgrades unless you get lucky with Biomancy.
Some characters can make normally elite units troops. The only actually good choice for CC is a Lord with the Mark of Nurgle, who gets you Plague Marines. Basic Chaos Space Marines aren't a terrible melee unit though, so they will do fine as an alternative (or you could have 'Super Runts' to count as Chaos Cultists).
Not sure about the special characters. I understand that Abaddon is an absolute beast.
With the changes to Cybork body MANZ have no invul save now? Do they still have inbuilt Cybork from Mega armor? Point change for Manz? Otherwise they weren't that good but got nerfed....
According to Melcavuc, the only option to get invulnerable saves throughout the army would be the KFF (against shooting only), Badrukk, who has his own, and Ghazghkull 2++ save for one turn. Other than that, there is nothing. I think they remain the same points as before. Got some options, though, bosspoles, Waaagh! banners, killsaws.
I wonder if making Ghaz a lord of war is an indication that maybe perhaps GW is considering bringing some Primarchs back, or perhaps give an option for 30k guys to play crusade fluff games with their Primarch's.
H.B.M.C. wrote: You people have added 20 pages since yesterday. Can we get a summary of some sort?
Orks got Tyranided. We lost almost everything that was decent, some uselessness got even more useless or straight up removed, Big Gunz are about the only real major boon we got.
Well, I'm not quite willing to make a sky is falling statement... I'm getting it... Orks are my primary at 8k painted. I enjoyed fielding a Kan wall. I'm pissed about the wagon F but hey... We knew something was going to get it...
I'll give it several months but I did buy dropzone commander in a rage drunk last night (hah).
Im selling my ork army. Warboss, 6 trukks, 2 Bws, 6 bikes, 30 slugga boys, 90 shoota boyz, 3 lootas, 6 deffkoptas, 8-10 nobs. Screw GW and warhammer. Is this an over reaction, maybe but this game is just spiralling down the toliet. 7th is a joke.
So Orks got a special FOC all to themselves. Kinda wish they'd thought of that before they did the 'Nids book. Base it around Synapse Creatures (eg. each Synapse HQ you bring gives you 3 Troops (1 Compulsory), 1 Elite, 1 FA and 1 HS. And you just keep adding Synapse). Or something like that.
TableTopJosh wrote: Im selling my ork army. Warboss, 6 trukks, 2 Bws, 6 bikes, 30 slugga boys, 90 shoota boyz, 3 lootas, 6 deffkoptas, 8-10 nobs. Screw GW and warhammer. Is this an over reaction, maybe but this game is just spiralling down the toliet. 7th is a joke.
H.B.M.C. wrote: You people have added 20 pages since yesterday. Can we get a summary of some sort?
Orks got Tyranided. We lost almost everything that was decent, some uselessness got even more useless or straight up removed, Big Gunz are about the only real major boon we got.
Actually, it's worse than that. Tyranids can stave off Instincive Behavior by staying within synapse, but there's no way around the far more punishing Ork morale table. Couple that with one of the worst army-wide LD ratings in the game and you have what sounds like a broken combination.
What was ramshackle before in the old codex? did it change from if your Truk is destoryed or explodes, it either Kareen, Kaboom or Kerrunch? imo the new ramshackle is better. The old ramshackle only had a positive effect if the trukk exploded, and with the new damage table that isn't happening very often for me, but now every pen i get delt can degrade to a glance. With the old rule if my trukk got destroyed it was gone, but now there's a one in 6 chance i can turn ignore an explode or imobilised result. Maybe I'm missing something but that seems better to me
Deffkoptas (cheaper).
Flash Gitz (much better shooting for a minor decrease in survivability).
Tankbustas (cheaper, access to painboy).
Mek Guns (cheaper, more options).
Bikers (cheaper, lost standard cover save but gained better one when turbo-boosting, access to painboy).
Weirdboys (actually useful powers, cheaper, force weapon).
Buggies (cheaper, outflank).
Deffdreads (cheaper).
Kommandos (Stealth).
Stormboys (much cheaper, although not quite as good as before).
Blitza Bomma (more reliable, AP 2, seems to be Large Blast now).
Badrukk (cheaper and Independent Character).
Nerfed:
Biker Nobs (nerfed cybork bodies, upgrades more expensive).
Shoota Boys (more expensive, no longer Fearless over 10 models).
Battlewagons (more expensive).
Burnas (slightly more expensive).
Killa Kans (assuming they didn't get cheaper).
Dakkajet (no massive bonus to shooting during Waaagh!).
Not sure about:
Slugga Boys (got worthless Stikkbombs, but at least they were free, possibly benefit from Waaagh!, Boarding Planks, etc. but loss of Fearless might hurt).
Warboss (less effective in combat, but offers a decent buff with the Waaagh!).
Trukks (cheaper, mostly better upgrades but new ramshackle is pointless).
Lootas (slightly cheaper, but in a more valued slot and suffer from battlewagon points increase).
Meganobs (seem pretty similar, i.e: quite good).
Burna Bomma (seems to have no real role if Blitza Bomma has a Large Blast).
Grots (tiny discount, but not sure how their morale works now).
Big Mek (lost cybork body, KFF nerfed, SAG slightly better, can take SAG/KFF and a bike now, new weapon option).
Painboy (seems to have more options than Dreadmob Painboss, available in standard list, slightly cheaper, but -1 Leadership?)
Zaggstrukk (seems a waste of a HQ slot, but rules are OK).
Grotsnik (does he still have to move towards the enemy, is he tougher than a painboy?)
We gained:
Warlord Traits (good).
Gifts of Gork & Mork (good).
New Formation / Detachment options (weak).
Gork/Morkanaught (weak).
We lost:
Wazzdakka (but he was a pretty rubbish choice and any miniature you converted can be used for a biker Warboss / Big Mek).
Zogwort (sucks).
Options for moving stuff around the FOC (sucks).
HBMC, it's probably not all as bad as "tyranided". However, a lot of our old go to rules have been gutted, and a lot of our new rules are feel particularly weak right now.
Some examples Bikes losing 4+ smoke cloud cover, Kans do morale checks, KFF no longer affects anyone outside of embarked vehicles but only the vehicle, mob rule is gonewith new version of Mob Rule seeming weak and unreliable, Ramshackle doesn't do much of anything, Points increases in strange locations with weird point decreases other places.
Generally, the codex seems all over the board, with very little to latch on to in terms of exciting design. It's feeling lack luster, uninspired, and very murky in terms of feel and direction.
adamsouza wrote: bunch of stuff already covered so we can keep the repeat questions down.
HQs listed as
Zagstruk Grotsnik Mek is a slotless HQ, 1 per actual HQ bought
Big Mek does not change FoC Painboy Warboss does not change FoC Weirdboy. Badrukk is a HQ (3+, 5++, str 7 AP2 assault 3 gun) , Badrukk has the rules listed for Da Rippa, but it is not listed in his wargear
Snikrot is not HQ, Snikkrot an elite (doesnt take a slot if taken with Kommandos) (shrouded on arrival, you pick an edge to outflank dont roll)
No Wazdakka
No Zogwort.
Ghaz is a LOW now, can take runts/squigs, stats look unchaged
D6 Warlord Trait 1 Prophet of the Waaagh!: Mork (or possibly Gork) has chosen this Warlord for greatness, and every Ork under his command knows it.
The Warlord gains the Waaagh! special rule. If the Warlord already has the Waaagh! special rule then, in addition to the usual effects, all friendly models with the ’Ere We Go! special rule gain the Fearless special rule when he calls a Waaagh!, until the start of their next turn.
2 Bellowing Tyrant: This Warlord is an unholy terror, a roaring lunatic whose every (very loud) word is law.
The Warlord, and all friendly units with the Orks Faction within 12" of him, re-roll failed Morale checks and Pinning tests.
3 Like a Thunderbolt!: This Warlord is a master of the all-out, no-holds-barred, headlong charge into battle.
The Warlord, and all friendly units with the Orks Faction within 12" of him, can re-roll all the dice when determining Run moves or charge range.
4 Brutal but Kunnin’: This Warlord has a sneaky streak a mile wide and knows just where to hit his foes.
The Warlord can re-roll one failed To Hit or To Wound roll each turn.
5 Kunnin’ but Brutal: The Warlord knows when to roll with a punch, and can shrug off the hardest blows.
The Warlord can re-roll one failed armour or invulnerable saving throw each turn.
6 Might is Right: Made of muscle and aggression, this Warlord is the embodiment of the Orks’ warlike nature.
The Warlord receives +1 to the Strength characteristic on his profile.
Buggys don't get new weapons, do get Grot Riggers at 10 points.
Not seen anything about FNP at all yet.
Grot riggers don't just work for IWND on 'nauts, any vehicle that has them, but cost per vehicle seems to differ. 20 to put them on a 'naut. BW don't seem to have the option.
Looks to be a lot more options with selecting wargear for meks
"A Big Mek may take items from the Mek Weapons, Melee Weapons, Runts & Squigs, Orky Know-wots and/or Gifts of Gork and Mork lists."
Mob rule is replaced by the D6 roll, yes.
Kustom Mega Slugga is a thing.
A Big Mek with mega armour can take one of the following
- Tellyport blasta Tellyporta blasta is the back mouned thing I've been describing and seems... uh, situational at best? Very short range weapon but causes instant death on a 6 wound. Rolling a 6 on AP causes a penetrating hit regardless of AV.
- Kustom force field
- Shock attack gun roll of double 6 is vortex!!!
- KFF can be combined with mega armour and bikes, Shock attack gun seems to be combinable with bikes.
- Git finda on SAG mek?
Relics: Gifts of Gork and Mork
Da Dead Shiny Shoota 6 shots twinlinked shoota, rolls of 1 hit one of your own units
Da Finkin’ Kap gives your warlord an additional trait from the strategic list.
Da Fixer Upperz
Da Lucky Stikk
Headwoppa’s Killchoppa is a +2 str, AP5, rending choppa that beheads on a roll of 6 (insta death).
Warboss Gazbag’s Blitzbike has an AP3 deff gun on it
Mob Chart D6 Result
1 If the unit is locked in combat, it passes the Morale check or Pinning test. If the unit is not locked in combat, it fails.
2-3 If the unit includes one or more Ork characters (including Independent Characters), it suffers D6 Strength 4 AP- hits, and is then treated as if it had passed the Morale check or Pinning test.
4-6 If the unit has 10 or more models, it suffers D6 Strength 4 AP- hits, and is then treated as if it had passed the Morale check or Pinning test. The hits are Randomly Allocated. If the unit has fewer than 10 models, it fails the Morale check or Pinning test.
Boss Pole gives Reroll on the mob chart.
Stompa in as super heavy
Battle Wagon up 20 points.
Killkannon still lowers transport on BW
Attack squig nerfed to 1 reroll in melee per turn
Tankbustas can shoot at whatever they like, and Bustas and Burnas can take dedicated trukks
Kommandos get Stealth, no point hike
Ramshackle got clobbered.. 6+ save when you take a pen, if successful downgrade to glance
Buggies in units of 5, gained outflank and a minor point decrease.
Rule for planks is a little complicated. If you get out of open topped and declare a charge, add 2 to the charge range
Deffrolla gains AP4 and loses half the hits
Lootas Heavy Support and cheaper (5 points less per squad)
Kans come in 6 packs, NO twin guns, NO Troop choice option, have special morale rule
If you take an Ork Warband detachment, you can Waaaagh every turn after the first
Weirdboys gain a Warp Charge point if there are 10 or more models with the 'ere we go rule (Pretty much any Ork from what I've seen) in 12" but has to take a psychic save or take a hit.
Power of the Waaagh! and Daemonlogy disciplines.
Can be upgraded to Psyker level 2.
Ork psychic powers are all cool. Either high strength, or teleport, large blast etc.
Primaris power is Frazzle (Blast witchfire).
'Eadbanger is now a focussed witchfire.
Warpath is a self blessing
Da jump is what used to be 'ere we go.
Killbolt is a beam attack.
Power vomit is a template witchfire.
Da Krunch is a barrage witchfire.
Cheap IWND on vehicles (5 points on Kans, 10 on dreds)
Painboy is IC, so put him where you need him, can take a bike.
Dedi transports available for burnas and tank bustas now
Warboss/Bigmek Mega Armor Kit is a thing
Ork boys cost 1 less point, but Shoota is 1 pt ugrade now
The HQ Mek (not Big Mek) has Boy statline
Pain Boys can not get 'Eavy Amor?
Zzap gun 2D6, gets hot on a 1-3 if you roll 11 or 12
Kannons and Lobbas unchanged
Honestly, not as bad as many people in this thread are making out. Sure, it isn't what many were hoping for, but decent relics and traits plus some solid choices in elites other than nob bikerz and lootas. Trukk Boyz and the other small units will actually gain from Mob Rule.
Then again, maybe I didn't have my hopes as high as others did. Still, I don't think it is fair to say we were nid'd, at least not at this still VERY early stage.
Manz are not terminators, so never had an inbuilt inv save, or any option to get one short of having grotsnik
Most incorrect. Mega-Armored Nobs used to have Medi-squigs. These were internal to their mega-armor and gave them, in addition to their 2+ save, an additional, subsequent, unmodified 4+ save vs. each wound. MANZ used to out-FNP anyone! This was a wonderful opportunity for GW, who was reviving all sorts of old things, like the Bubble Chukka, Tractor Kannon, etc. to revive something historical about Orks which would make their 'terminators' different from the Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines.
Unlike the 'true Terminators', you could have left Mega-Armored Nobs with only the Power Klaw option, and Slow and Purposeful rather than Relentless, and no Deep Striking, but given them back their medi-squigs, in the form of a 4+ FNP. This would make them distinct from termies, while keeping the 'no invulnerable saves' mantra that GW seemed to have adopted for some reason on Orks.
That's right. The race which re-invents Force Fields again and again, and uses them to crush people, and trap air around asteroids, etc, still can't figure out how to make an actual force field for armor.
This is why I think a lot of us are disappointed. I don't see the codex as unplayable, or 'tyranidded', or the new whipping boy. I see tons of potential, squandered and unrealized. I see incoherent changes and additions:
Long-standing (but not unchanged) background has orks being fond of projectile weapons, since they are very loud, and a bit dubious of a lot of energy weapons, which don't make satisfyingly loud noises. This is reflected with the Kannon and Lobba, and the Kilkannon and boomgun, and reiterated with Forgeworld with the Big Lobba, SupaKannon, Flakk Gun, Boom Gun, Mega-gatler, Krusha Kannon, Bursta Kannon, etc.
Then, GW produces new models, and doesn't update ancient projectile weapons, but produces 4 energy weapons. WTF?
But wait, the energy weapons hearken back to the glorious days of old! Waaaagh! Does the bubble chukka entrap things in force fields? Nope, it crushes them. What about the lifta-droppa? Nope, we dropped it. What about the Pulsa Rokkit? Nope, not in the book.
They can't get their act together. Some stuff is awesome (Pain boys where you want them!) Other stuff is dumb (transport walker with huge bay doors isn't an assault vehicle). Other stuff seems randomly odd (nobs can have heavy armor, unless they are in a unit without it, in which case they can't).
HBMC, it's probably not all as bad as "tyranided". However, a lot of our old go to rules have been gutted, and a lot of our new rules are feel particularly weak right now.
Some examples Bikes losing 4+ smoke cloud cover, Kans do morale checks, KFF no longer affects anyone outside of embarked vehicles but only the vehicle, mob rule is gonewith new version of Mob Rule seeming weak and unreliable, Ramshackle doesn't do much of anything, Points increases in strange locations with weird point decreases other places.
Generally, the codex seems all over the board, with very little to latch on to in terms of exciting design. It's feeling lack luster, uninspired, and very murky in terms of feel and direction.
Just my opinion.
This is a pretty good summary of how I feel. I was pretty optomistic with seeing some of the new stuff and the rumors, and I would honestly be OK with most of the changes, except that stupid as moral table thingy.
wow, dont tell me some persons are really selling their army cause they don't like what they heard about a book that have yet to release. That's simply stunning
HBMC, it's probably not all as bad as "tyranided". However, a lot of our old go to rules have been gutted, and a lot of our new rules are feel particularly weak right now.
Some examples Bikes losing 4+ smoke cloud cover, Kans do morale checks, KFF no longer affects anyone outside of embarked vehicles but only the vehicle, mob rule is gonewith new version of Mob Rule seeming weak and unreliable, Ramshackle doesn't do much of anything, Points increases in strange locations with weird point decreases other places.
Generally, the codex seems all over the board, with very little to latch on to in terms of exciting design. It's feeling lack luster, uninspired, and very murky in terms of feel and direction.
Just my opinion.
This is a pretty good summary of how I feel. I was pretty optomistic with seeing some of the new stuff and the rumors, and I would honestly be OK with most of the changes, except that stupid as moral table thingy.
Top of my reasons for not liking the release at the moment is the new mob rule chart. Right below that is Shoota boyz going up in price, and then lastly, the bloated heavy support section and what feels like an overall nerf to every aspect of battle wagons. I also would like to cry about making Kans take morale checks because it just feels insulting. Do ANY other walkers take morale checks?
streetsamurai wrote: wow, dont tell me some persons are really selling their army cause they don't like what they heard about a book that have yet to release. That's simply stunning
streetsamurai wrote: wow, dont tell me some persons are really selling their army cause they don't like what they heard about a book that have yet to release. That's simply stunning
TableTopJosh wrote: Im selling my ork army. Warboss, 6 trukks, 2 Bws, 6 bikes, 30 slugga boys, 90 shoota boyz, 3 lootas, 6 deffkoptas, 8-10 nobs. Screw GW and warhammer. Is this an over reaction, maybe but this game is just spiralling down the toliet. 7th is a joke.
Give me a link to your stuff, I'll gladly buy it off you cheap!
Right on cue....another army book is on it's way and it OBVIOUSLY SUCKS DONKEY BALLS before anyone really has a chance to see it or play it.......just like the Tau book sucked donkey balls when it came out.....or the eldar book sucked donkey balls when it came out...or how tyranids would never EVER win a game when their book came out...or how space marines sucked donkey balls when they came out and even how the Astra Militarum (Imperial guard) sucked balls when they came out.
I sense a theme....it seems the theme is every books sucks donkey balls until people start using it. BTW, if you biggest complaint boils down to "The exact army I've been playing forever is not as awesome as it's always been" I have zero sympathy for you....armies change with every book, get over it and make a new awesome army.
pretty sure the tau were immediately reviewed as pretty damn nasty. Eldar were only immediately reviewed bad purely because the wraithknight doesnt have a stock invul. Tyranids ARE bad, and space marines were viewed bad because theyre the only codex to be actually BALANCED where nothing screams broken or useless like every other codex.
Orktavius wrote: Right on cue....another army book is on it's way and it OBVIOUSLY SUCKS DONKEY BALLS before anyone really has a chance to see it or play it.......just like the Tau book sucked donkey balls when it came out.....or the eldar book sucked donkey balls when it came out...or how tyranids would never EVER win a game when their book came out...or how space marines sucked donkey balls when they came out and even how the Astra Militarum (Imperial guard) sucked balls when they came out.
I sense a theme....it seems the theme is every books sucks donkey balls until people start using it. BTW, if you biggest complaint boils down to "The exact army I've been playing forever is not as awesome as it's always been" I have zero sympathy for you....armies change with every book, get over it and make a new awesome army.
There is no way to make everyone happy, if GW gave away free rulebooks with the codex and a free Battlewagon kit with every codex release some people would complain that they wanted a different model.
I'm not necessarily super excited for the codex, but on the other hand I'm excited my favorite army is getting some updates, good or bad it's something.
Manz are not terminators, so never had an inbuilt inv save, or any option to get one short of having grotsnik
Most incorrect. Mega-Armored Nobs used to have Medi-squigs. These were internal to their mega-armor and gave them, in addition to their 2+ save, an additional, subsequent, unmodified 4+ save vs. each wound. MANZ used to out-FNP anyone! This was a wonderful opportunity for GW, who was reviving all sorts of old things, like the Bubble Chukka, Tractor Kannon, etc. to revive something historical about Orks which would make their 'terminators' different from the Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines.
Unlike the 'true Terminators', you could have left Mega-Armored Nobs with only the Power Klaw option, and Slow and Purposeful rather than Relentless, and no Deep Striking, but given them back their medi-squigs, in the form of a 4+ FNP. This would make them distinct from termies, while keeping the 'no invulnerable saves' mantra that GW seemed to have adopted for some reason on Orks.
That's right. The race which re-invents Force Fields again and again, and uses them to crush people, and trap air around asteroids, etc, still can't figure out how to make an actual force field for armor.
This is why I think a lot of us are disappointed. I don't see the codex as unplayable, or 'tyranidded', or the new whipping boy. I see tons of potential, squandered and unrealized. I see incoherent changes and additions:
Long-standing (but not unchanged) background has orks being fond of projectile weapons, since they are very loud, and a bit dubious of a lot of energy weapons, which don't make satisfyingly loud noises. This is reflected with the Kannon and Lobba, and the Kilkannon and boomgun, and reiterated with Forgeworld with the Big Lobba, SupaKannon, Flakk Gun, Boom Gun, Mega-gatler, Krusha Kannon, Bursta Kannon, etc.
Then, GW produces new models, and doesn't update ancient projectile weapons, but produces 4 energy weapons. WTF?
But wait, the energy weapons hearken back to the glorious days of old! Waaaagh! Does the bubble chukka entrap things in force fields? Nope, it crushes them. What about the lifta-droppa? Nope, we dropped it. What about the Pulsa Rokkit? Nope, not in the book.
They can't get their act together. Some stuff is awesome (Pain boys where you want them!) Other stuff is dumb (transport walker with huge bay doors isn't an assault vehicle). Other stuff seems randomly odd (nobs can have heavy armor, unless they are in a unit without it, in which case they can't).
Ok, to rephrase then
Meganobz in the current codex (not the one about to come out) do not and had no option bar Grotsnik for, invulnerable saves...
Ancient ork codex are ancient. Awesome, to be sure, but ancient.
The person i was responding to seemed to be under the impression the 4th ed codex MANz had them.
I guess many peoples problem with it (mine included) is that it made some pretty unnessesary changes without adding too much. I think it is too early to claim that its terrible, but its not looking too good as most if not all of the viable lists in the old codex have been nerfed in one way or another when they wernt that strong to begin with.
I can kind of see what they were trying to do with a lot of this stuff...
Most of the units which got buffed were the weakest choices (with the exception of Deffkoptas) while the ones which got nerfed were generally the strongest (except Burna Boys and Killa Kans). So there seems to be a genuine effort to make the units balanced against each other. What upsets me is that we seem to have been shifted towards the middle of the last codex rather than the upper end of it, so overall effectiveness has dropped in an army which was already struggling.
The changes to Cybork Body keep it consistent with other armies rules (cybernetics give FNP 6+, only force fields and the like give invulnerable) which I appreciate, but they dropped the ball by not reducing the cost of CB to reflect it's weakened effectiveness and not giving access to a reasonable selection of effective force fields.
The new Mob Rule, I actually like. It means that orks don't run away as much, but also aren't immune to morale. Unfortunately, it wasn't compensated for with an overall buff.
All the new energy weapons would have been a great chance to give us special rules we could really use, like Haywire, Strikedown, Graviton, Lance, etc. Instead we get random Strength on pretty much everything.
Overall, it seems like a very conservative codex. It's sticking close to the last release, not bringing much new to the table, not changing play styles much, not shifting the balance of power in the meta at all. I doubt any non-ork players are going to be upset by anything here.
I hate to sound like a dick, oh wait no i dont. Ork players have been crying and sobbing for YEARS over how old their book is and how their last one was an "artistic re-print", but now they finnally get some new stuff and it's all "the sky is falling! the sky is falling!" Don't get me wrong I'm and IG player who was dreading thIG rumors but guess what? I bought it, read it, and made it work and so did my Nid friend and so did my SM firend and so will my Ork friend... stop stressing out and enjoy the hobby for feth sake... it's just a game and games change. BTW i think Orks are gonna be a power house, assaulting the same turn you run? Sounds like they're getting a lil' bit of 5th back.
Well guys, you heard them. We can't complain. Better back it up and be happy with whatever life gives you. After all, there's staving children is africa who would be happy to get a new ork codex
Luke_Prowler wrote: Well guys, you heard them. We can't complain. Better back it up and be happy with whatever life gives you. After all, there's staving children is africa who would be happy to get a new ork codex
I doubt it. You can't eat codices.
Also, I believe these leaks are technically illegal.
Luke_Prowler wrote: Well guys, you heard them. We can't complain. Better back it up and be happy with whatever life gives you. After all, there's staving children is africa who would be happy to get a new ork codex
+1000! 40k is only a game for pessimists who hate life! Everyone who was ever optimistic about anything in this game deserves to be strapped to a chair and beaten with hammers!
PuddlePirate wrote: I hate to sound like a dick, oh wait no i dont. Ork players have been crying and sobbing for YEARS over how old their book is and how their last one was an "artistic re-print", but now they finnally get some new stuff and it's all "the sky is falling! the sky is falling!" Don't get me wrong I'm and IG player who was dreading thIG rumors but guess what? I bought it, read it, and made it work and so did my Nid friend and so did my SM firend and so will my Ork friend... stop stressing out and enjoy the hobby for feth sake... it's just a game and games change. BTW i think Orks are gonna be a power house, assaulting the same turn you run? Sounds like they're getting a lil' bit of 5th back.
Yup, a game made for having fun. Doesn't matter if you don't find it fun, suck it up and continue on! What do you think this is, a game? How dare you not like something!
I have read everything in this thread, and i must say orks look promising its gonna be fun smashn da humis!
All the vehicles got a huge boost with grot riggers.
Weirdboyz got definitely boosted, boys are stronger, and if your affraid of ICs dying from a lack of an invul just stick em in a mob of boyzs. New Waaagh is great. New mob rule just means i might lose one more ork getting in but they will stick around longer once they are in combat.
rothrich wrote: I think that after playing with the codex a few times people will see that it is a definite upgrade. Waaagh is hugely upgraded! The old waaagh is now ere we go and can be used each and every turn. If you don't understand why this alone makes the new codex way better than the old something is wrong with you. The new waaagh is what every other assault army has wanted and has not gotten. we can run and then assault... What is not to love about that? The new mob rule is kind of a nerf but honestly it needed it. Tons of fearless mobs was almost silly. Now mob rule is actually a benefit to the smaller mobz. Everything got CHEAPER! well except boyz. Now we can take as many ard boyz squads as we want. so we can actually buy a save for our boyz mobz! This is a huge upgrade!!!! Mek gunz are awesome, flash gitz awesome, gorkamorka naughts awesome, buggies are awsomer! 5 outflanking heavy flamers??? Good luck surviving that anything! Now with the stompa in our actual codex it will be pretty hard for anyone to tell you that you can't use it. Maybe you cant use your regular codex entries then (looking at you riptide!) There are so many good things about this codex. The only reason that people are upset is that the lists that dominated 5th are not viable in 7th. Well that is the way that it goes. That is the goal of GW they want you to buy a new army full of new units!
I would agree with the post above. I think all the doomsayers need to take a deep breath and calm themselves. This is just a game after all. Perhaps play a game or 2 or at least watch a couple of battle reports before you cash in your chips.
On second thought, go ahead and cash in your chips, I am sure you will find players who will take models off your hands at steep discounts. Be sure and PM me if you are looking to unload some of your models!
I get what your saying about knee-jerk reactions, but I don't see how someone getting rid of the army they spent so much time and attention on because they feel it not worth it is ever a good thing.
Its not even that they changed things so much, its just that its clearly a very lazy effort, much like tyranids. You can tell its not a priority for them, they dident put the thought of the space marine codex in it, or throw stuff on the wall to see what sticks like tau. It was a product that they couldn't put off anymore, produced it, and are done and moved on to the next project without much of a second thought.
And the thing that really burns me, I mean really, is that 2 months from now they are going to have the balls to charge you for dataslates that equate to being able to take nobs again and kans/dreads as troops, that they will expect you to pay 5 to 10 dollars extra for.
Yup, a game made for having fun. Doesn't matter if you don't find it fun, suck it up and continue on! What do you think this is, a game? How dare you not like something!
Incorrect. It is a game made for selling models as that is clearly the best part of the Hobby according to GW. Whether or not you have "fun" after purchasing a complete army and aging out of the tween new player demographic they covet is irrelevant.
If they're over 15 points, they didn't get *buffed* as I keep reading, because w/o exhaust cloud they're fragile as all hell (4+ armour is called the worst save in the game for good reason) and have gak leadership and a fast flee speed.
And no, losing half your accuracy for a 3+ cover is not an improvement over all your accuracy and 4+ cover!
Edit: Also, feth what they did to trukks. That gak is not cool.
If they're over 15 points, they didn't get *buffed* as I keep reading, because w/o exhaust cloud they're fragile as all hell (4+ armour is called the worst save in the game for good reason) and have gak leadership and a fast flee speed.
And no, losing half your accuracy for a 3+ cover is not an improvement over all your accuracy and 4+ cover!
Edit: Also, feth what they did to trukks. That gak is not cool.
I hear that. I actually get annoyed when people try to say that Snap Shots don't matter for Orks as a whole, when it really, really does. From their perspective, I can see that no longer hitting on 3 or 2 is a huge hit, but when we can only hit on 2 of the 6 sides normally, and now only hit on 1 side just to stay alive, is a pain in the arse. *sigh* Makes me the sad grot.
If they're over 15 points, they didn't get *buffed* as I keep reading, because w/o exhaust cloud they're fragile as all hell (4+ armour is called the worst save in the game for good reason) and have gak leadership and a fast flee speed.
And no, losing half your accuracy for a 3+ cover is not an improvement over all your accuracy and 4+ cover!
Edit: Also, feth what they did to trukks. That gak is not cool.
How is a 4+ armor save the worse in the game? 5+ and 6+ are so bad that you often don't even get to use them and the few situations you do the chances of passing are low anyway. I will agree that it often over priced and far to many heavy weapons flat out ignore it. Losing the exhuast cloud save for a better jink save only when turbo-boosting really sucks, but at least it lets you get your biker boyz into melee in one piece barring ignore cover weapons.
How is a 4+ armor save the worse in the game?[...] I will agree that it often over priced and far to many heavy weapons flat out ignore it.
Because its overpriced and far too many heavy weapons flat out ignore it.
Also, Warbikers are pretty gak at melee for what they cost. Their old strengths were dakka and durability to heavy weapons. Now, they might be better dakka than before (assuming dakkaguns still the same?), but they're definitely not durable in the slightest, and even with their cheaper price I can't see them doing very much before getting blasted off of the table.
Edit: Also, enough with the hipsters parroting "sell me your army" and "hurr durr the sky is falling amirite". This codex looks like it has legitimate issues. They failed to fix a lot (not all) of the problems Orks had, whilst giving us many 'fixes' that we didn't want. People who are unhappy with what they see are right to be so, and your a bunch of dicks for saying that they are not.
How is a 4+ armor save the worse in the game?[...] I will agree that it often over priced and far to many heavy weapons flat out ignore it.
Because its overpriced and far too many heavy weapons flat out ignore it.
Also, Warbikers are pretty gak at melee for what they cost. Their old strengths were dakka and durability to heavy weapons. Now, they might be better dakka than before (assuming dakkaguns still the same?), but they're definitely not durable in the slightest, and even with their cheaper price I can't see them doing very much before getting blasted off of the table.
Edit: Also, enough with the hipsters parroting "sell me your army" and "hurr durr the sky is falling amirite". This codex looks like it has legitimate issues. They failed to fix a lot (not all) of the problems Orks had, whilst giving us many 'fixes' that we didn't want. People who are unhappy with what they see are right to be so, and your a bunch of dicks for saying that they are not.
Fair enough on the 4+ armor save though I would not say it the worse just that it OK at best and ignored to often at worse. It a shame since I was actually looking forward to starting up a ork army depending on how the book turned out, but the leaks made me reconsider and I canceled a rather large per-order. If someone is unhappy with a codex update they have every right to be upset, they are the one who invested the time and money into their army and they have every right to sell or shelve it if they wish without being made fun of.
The thing i don't really get with all of this is the relative randomness of all the changes that where made. While some of the stuff fixed really lacking units like Kommandos, Flash Gitz, and Tankbustas, most of the changes feel more like making changes for the sake of saying they made something different like the unique FOC for Orkz when you can just do a double FOC and get all the other much needed FOC slots for 1 additional HQ and troop. Who is gonna make a list that they need more than 6 troops and 2 HQs but not bother to take 3 more elite/fast/heavy slots?
I think this new dex has stuff to work with but honestly i feel like they made ideas for changes for each unit and just rolled dice to see which changes to each unit to make. Trukks got nerfed/changed because trukk lists where OP or that ramshackle was an uninteresting mechanic? I get that GW wants to sell plastic so they might nerf the current meta stuff to sell new things but honestly they don't really seem to have any reasoning or direction for a lot of these changes.
Vankraken wrote: The thing i don't really get with all of this is the relative randomness of all the changes that where made. While some of the stuff fixed really lacking units like Kommandos, Flash Gitz, and Tankbustas, most of the changes feel more like making changes for the sake of saying they made something different like the unique FOC for Orkz when you can just do a double FOC and get all the other much needed FOC slots for 1 additional HQ and troop. Who is gonna make a list that they need more than 6 troops and 2 HQs but not bother to take 3 more elite/fast/heavy slots?
I think this new dex has stuff to work with but honestly i feel like they made ideas for changes for each unit and just rolled dice to see which changes to each unit to make. Trukks got nerfed/changed because trukk lists where OP or that ramshackle was an uninteresting mechanic? I get that GW wants to sell plastic so they might nerf the current meta stuff to sell new things but honestly they don't really seem to have any reasoning or direction for a lot of these changes.
I felt the same way regarding the Tyranid update, how is it forging a narrative or fun when your units are either running off the table or eating themselves? These table mechanics can make some really lopsided matches especially if you are having a bad luck streak. Also from fluff view what I read why would orks start punching each other when the enemy is right there to fight? Game wise the old mob rule was simple and good, just needed tweaks for small elite squads, but otherwise I feel it represented what happens when large numbers of orks fight together would work.
Dakkamite wrote: Also, Warbikers are pretty gak at melee for what they cost. Their old strengths were dakka and durability to heavy weapons. Now, they might be better dakka than before (assuming dakkaguns still the same?), but they're definitely not durable in the slightest, and even with their cheaper price I can't see them doing very much before getting blasted off of the table.
Seven bikers and a biker painboy now is only one point more expensive than eight bikers in the last codex and I'd much rather have 4+ armour and 5+ FNP than 4+ armour and 4+ cover. Plenty of things ignore cover and medium armour, almost nothing ignores FNP on a T5 model and you can stack it with a saving throw.
Bikers might not have got as good as you would expect, extrapolating from Space Marines and Eldar, but they clearly got better than they were before.
Including 2 variants of 'naut there's 9 heavy support choices having fast kanz or elite dreads or dedicated 'nauts would help alleviate the issue. I understand why theyre heavy but force selection for those of us that don't like dual foc or unbound is going to be a mare.
YourIntestines wrote: The cybork bodies hit nobs very hard, although they were probably in need of downgrading.
This is coming from a thorough advocate of nobs.
if anything, I felt Nobz were in need of upgrading. Their only saving grace was the Biker/Painboy combo. They are still pretty useless since they didn't get really ANYTHING new to add to survivability. We now just feel less bad about them dying due to their slight point decrease.
Again, this is all assuming anything be said thus far is true.
i hope all the cry babies do sell their orks, orkses don't cry. period.
i play green tide, and I'm praise mork!! happy.
i think alot of this stems from people wanting their existing playstyle or even current list, to survive an edition change (or 3 in this case) or only get buffed. no company will ever make money doing that.
adapt guys, its not all about having powerbuilds, its about building power, about taking the good and trimming off the fat (SKIN THAT SQUIG!!)
some armies don't have much fat, some get to play however they want to, and still be really good. some of us dont, but it makes us better players in general to take the fatty slab of meat, and make a ribeye out of it.
I've played orks and chaos since 3rd, but i love these guys.
i learned a hard lesson at the beginning of 6th, when the two chaos books were released. i flipping out pissed!!! gw had ruined my armies!!! t5 princes, nerfs to bloodcrushers and letters, no character in the csm book at all, and on and on and on. but you know what, i made it work, i play tested and theory crafted, chit chatted, and made the books work.
now I'm literally crushing people at our group, no holds barred body slams. no mercy. and i love it.
so for this thread, pick up your choppas, start your battlewagons, and WWAAAAAAAAAAAAGH FOR THE WAAAAAAAAAGHH GODZ!!!!!!!!
YourIntestines wrote: The cybork bodies hit nobs very hard, although they were probably in need of downgrading.
This is coming from a thorough advocate of nobs.
if anything, I felt Nobz were in need of upgrading. Their only saving grace was the Biker/Painboy combo. They are still pretty useless since they didn't get really ANYTHING new to add to survivability. We now just feel less bad about them dying due to their slight point decrease.
Again, this is all assuming anything be said thus far is true.
Possibly the people near you take more ordinance. I've seen a Nob mob mow down a BA battleline twice their points cost, losing only 2 models.
YourIntestines wrote: The cybork bodies hit nobs very hard, although they were probably in need of downgrading.
This is coming from a thorough advocate of nobs.
if anything, I felt Nobz were in need of upgrading. Their only saving grace was the Biker/Painboy combo. They are still pretty useless since they didn't get really ANYTHING new to add to survivability. We now just feel less bad about them dying due to their slight point decrease.
Again, this is all assuming anything be said thus far is true.
Possibly the people near you take more ordinance. I've seen a Nob mob mow down a BA battleline twice their points cost, losing only 2 models.
I play nothing but Tau, MEQs, and Eldar. Sometimes I see a Necron player, but its rare. So yeah, nothing but Plates and Str 8 weaponry heading my way constantly. My Nobz only lived if they were on bikes. I never, ever, EVER flootslog. It frustrates me to no end, because I have plenty of Nob models, and I want to run them so bad. But doing so would be such a waste of points that I'd never see earn even a single point back.
I mean, even today, a jackass brought a Knight with him to our friendly game. Didn't even have the courtesy to ask if he could use it. I literally had nothing to stop it. At all. My Deff Kopters managed to wound it one time when they came off reserves behind it. 1 wound. Its these sorts of things we needed tools for this book, to actually be able to topple these virtually unwoundable units. I'm just tired of Orks having such unreliable anything. Our access to Str 8 weapons are so far and wide between, and usually only ONE model out of a large squad can even take it.
Just...uhg. I want to KRUMP! And I'm always the one getting KRUMPED!
Now that Badrukk is an IC, where would be a good place to put him? He seems like a good option for commanding a battery of Kustom Mega Kannons; his weapon is similar, he works best when standing still (assuming he still has a gitfinda) and he mitigates their terrible leadership. Also, a space pirate with a battery of energy cannons is pretty cool.
A character with a gitfinda on a bike only gets the benefit when firing Heavy, Ordinance and Salvo weapons, right? Do we have anything that falls under those categories except the Shokk Attack Gun?
I'm going to convert a SAG bike mek regardless of how effective it is. Just the fact that it's possible is fantastic. I'm thinking some kind of sidecar to support the SAG and a cage on the back of the bike for snotlings. Need to find some suitable snot models.
zachwho wrote: i hope all the cry babies do sell their orks, orkses don't cry. period.
i play green tide, and I'm praise mork!! happy.
i think alot of this stems from people wanting their existing playstyle or even current list, to survive an edition change (or 3 in this case) or only get buffed. no company will ever make money doing that.
adapt guys, its not all about having powerbuilds, its about building power, about taking the good and trimming off the fat (SKIN THAT SQUIG!!)
some armies don't have much fat, some get to play however they want to, and still be really good. some of us dont, but it makes us better players in general to take the fatty slab of meat, and make a ribeye out of it.
I've played orks and chaos since 3rd, but i love these guys.
i learned a hard lesson at the beginning of 6th, when the two chaos books were released. i flipping out pissed!!! gw had ruined my armies!!! t5 princes, nerfs to bloodcrushers and letters, no character in the csm book at all, and on and on and on. but you know what, i made it work, i play tested and theory crafted, chit chatted, and made the books work.
now I'm literally crushing people at our group, no holds barred body slams. no mercy. and i love it.
so for this thread, pick up your choppas, start your battlewagons, and WWAAAAAAAAAAAAGH FOR THE WAAAAAAAAAGHH GODZ!!!!!!!!
I agree with learning to adapt to changes to an extent, though if the army is no longer enjoyable for you to play then should you force yourself to make it work? Also the name calling is unnecessary, 40k is an expensive hobby with a huge time investment and nothing hurts more then having the feeling that the investment was ruined. People selling off the armies they once loved and possibly leaving the hobby altogether is never a good thing.
zachwho wrote: i hope all the cry babies do sell their orks, orkses don't cry. period.
i play green tide, and I'm praise mork!! happy.
i think alot of this stems from people wanting their existing playstyle or even current list, to survive an edition change (or 3 in this case) or only get buffed. no company will ever make money doing that.
adapt guys, its not all about having powerbuilds, its about building power, about taking the good and trimming off the fat (SKIN THAT SQUIG!!)
some armies don't have much fat, some get to play however they want to, and still be really good. some of us dont, but it makes us better players in general to take the fatty slab of meat, and make a ribeye out of it.
I've played orks and chaos since 3rd, but i love these guys.
i learned a hard lesson at the beginning of 6th, when the two chaos books were released. i flipping out pissed!!! gw had ruined my armies!!! t5 princes, nerfs to bloodcrushers and letters, no character in the csm book at all, and on and on and on. but you know what, i made it work, i play tested and theory crafted, chit chatted, and made the books work.
now I'm literally crushing people at our group, no holds barred body slams. no mercy. and i love it.
so for this thread, pick up your choppas, start your battlewagons, and WWAAAAAAAAAAAAGH FOR THE WAAAAAAAAAGHH GODZ!!!!!!!!
Itz wun of dem chaos krazies finkin dey Orkz agin. Tell ur skull krazy god dat hez not orky enuf to join da boyz.
I think a lot of the fustration is that the Ork book had some really glaring weaknesses and it pigeonholed Orkz into a more narrow playstyle to try and overcome the glaring handicap a 4th edition assault army has in a shooting focused edition. Instead of fixing a lot of the major problems and giving some clear game plan and synergy between units, everything feels like its a jumbled mess of randomness that didn't really lock down the major issues and it weakened some of the things that worked for Orks (when your book is one of the worst competitive books in use its hard to justify throwing around a lot of nerfs). Its hard to feel good about Stormboyz having a run that will kill 14% of the unit or Killa Kanz having moral checks when Kanz and Stormboyz where not a problem in 6th edition and in the case of Stormboyz greatly underperformed. There is some value to be mined from this new dex (not sure if we will find gold but maybe some silver or a few gems) but when your kinda the punching bag of the 40k meta its hard to feel like GW thought these changes through. If Ork formations come out later with some pants on head brokenly OP rules then it will all make sense.
zachwho wrote: i hope all the cry babies do sell their orks, orkses don't cry. period.
i play green tide, and I'm praise mork!! happy.
i think alot of this stems from people wanting their existing playstyle or even current list, to survive an edition change (or 3 in this case) or only get buffed. no company will ever make money doing that.
adapt guys, its not all about having powerbuilds, its about building power, about taking the good and trimming off the fat (SKIN THAT SQUIG!!)
some armies don't have much fat, some get to play however they want to, and still be really good. some of us dont, but it makes us better players in general to take the fatty slab of meat, and make a ribeye out of it.
I've played orks and chaos since 3rd, but i love these guys.
i learned a hard lesson at the beginning of 6th, when the two chaos books were released. i flipping out pissed!!! gw had ruined my armies!!! t5 princes, nerfs to bloodcrushers and letters, no character in the csm book at all, and on and on and on. but you know what, i made it work, i play tested and theory crafted, chit chatted, and made the books work.
now I'm literally crushing people at our group, no holds barred body slams. no mercy. and i love it.
so for this thread, pick up your choppas, start your battlewagons, and WWAAAAAAAAAAAAGH FOR THE WAAAAAAAAAGHH GODZ!!!!!!!!
^ this, without the "cry babies" though
I understand the frustration of some here and there, but please, give it at least a try before selling your beloved army learn from facts and experience, then decide ... please don't rush to conclusions
zachwho wrote: i hope all the cry babies do sell their orks, orkses don't cry. period.
i play green tide, and I'm praise mork!! happy.
i think alot of this stems from people wanting their existing playstyle or even current list, to survive an edition change (or 3 in this case) or only get buffed. no company will ever make money doing that.
adapt guys, its not all about having powerbuilds, its about building power, about taking the good and trimming off the fat (SKIN THAT SQUIG!!)
some armies don't have much fat, some get to play however they want to, and still be really good. some of us dont, but it makes us better players in general to take the fatty slab of meat, and make a ribeye out of it.
I've played orks and chaos since 3rd, but i love these guys.
i learned a hard lesson at the beginning of 6th, when the two chaos books were released. i flipping out pissed!!! gw had ruined my armies!!! t5 princes, nerfs to bloodcrushers and letters, no character in the csm book at all, and on and on and on. but you know what, i made it work, i play tested and theory crafted, chit chatted, and made the books work.
now I'm literally crushing people at our group, no holds barred body slams. no mercy. and i love it.
so for this thread, pick up your choppas, start your battlewagons, and WWAAAAAAAAAAAAGH FOR THE WAAAAAAAAAGHH GODZ!!!!!!!!
Itz wun of dem chaos krazies finkin dey Orkz agin. Tell ur skull krazy god dat hez not orky enuf to join da boyz.
I think a lot of the fustration is that the Ork book had some really glaring weaknesses and it pigeonholed Orkz into a more narrow playstyle to try and overcome the glaring handicap a 4th edition assault army has in a shooting focused edition. Instead of fixing a lot of the major problems and giving some clear game plan and synergy between units, everything feels like its a jumbled mess of randomness that didn't really lock down the major issues and it weakened some of the things that worked for Orks (when your book is one of the worst competitive books in use its hard to justify throwing around a lot of nerfs). Its hard to feel good about Stormboyz having a run that will kill 14% of the unit or Killa Kanz having moral checks when Kanz and Stormboyz where not a problem in 6th edition and in the case of Stormboyz greatly underperformed. There is some value to be mined from this new dex (not sure if we will find gold but maybe some silver or a few gems) but when your kinda the punching bag of the 40k meta its hard to feel like GW thought these changes through. If Ork formations come out later with some pants on head brokenly OP rules then it will all make sense.
Agreed with most of this though I feel waiting for some DLC to "fix" your army is not a good thing. I think most people just want an army that is fitting to the background, internally balanced and fun to play. Surely this is not too much to ask when a new codex comes out?
Archon_Zarbyrn wrote: If someone is unhappy with a codex update they have every right to be upset, they are the one who invested the time and money into their army and they have every right to sell or shelve it if they wish without being made fun of.
That parts not directed at you btw.
I wouldn't abandon Orks just yet, but... this is a thread full of Ork players, known for their dedication to what is most certainly the best faction in the game, and yet we have lots of grumbling and even some supposed army sales.
That said... if your like me, and already think "d3 victory points" edition is pretty crappy as is, maybe getting Orks isn't a great idea.
Vankraken wrote: The thing i don't really get with all of this is the relative randomness of all the changes that where made. While some of the stuff fixed really lacking units like Kommandos, Flash Gitz, and Tankbustas, most of the changes feel more like making changes for the sake of saying they made something different like the unique FOC for Orkz when you can just do a double FOC and get all the other much needed FOC slots for 1 additional HQ and troop. Who is gonna make a list that they need more than 6 troops and 2 HQs but not bother to take 3 more elite/fast/heavy slots?
I think this new dex has stuff to work with but honestly i feel like they made ideas for changes for each unit and just rolled dice to see which changes to each unit to make. Trukks got nerfed/changed because trukk lists where OP or that ramshackle was an uninteresting mechanic? I get that GW wants to sell plastic so they might nerf the current meta stuff to sell new things but honestly they don't really seem to have any reasoning or direction for a lot of these changes.
This very much sums it up. A lot of changes seem to have happened because change. Trukks were nerfed because... well gak, Ramshackle was the best part of the codex IMO, so feth knows why they did this to it. New FoC in "lol what FoC" edition for reasons.
Whats the change to Kommandos? From what I've seen, they got stealth and are otherwise identical. This is an improvement only in the technical sense - thats still a pretty gak unit. Ditto for tankbustas - I've only seen first blood vehicle kill = 2 VP, and a dedicated trukk transport. The latter is less of an improvement and more of a "why the hell did they not have this?". If the cheaper rockets thing is across the board and they're 10 points, they're possibly not bad at all though.
Dakkamite wrote: Also, Warbikers are pretty gak at melee for what they cost. Their old strengths were dakka and durability to heavy weapons. Now, they might be better dakka than before (assuming dakkaguns still the same?), but they're definitely not durable in the slightest, and even with their cheaper price I can't see them doing very much before getting blasted off of the table.
Seven bikers and a biker painboy now is only one point more expensive than eight bikers in the last codex and I'd much rather have 4+ armour and 5+ FNP than 4+ armour and 4+ cover. Plenty of things ignore cover and medium armour, almost nothing ignores FNP on a T5 model and you can stack it with a saving throw.
Bikers might not have got as good as you would expect, extrapolating from Space Marines and Eldar, but they clearly got better than they were before.
I'm looking at them in isolation, without that Biker Painboy they're crap - unless of course thats a squad upgrade and not an IC. At 18 points each for the loss of exhaust cloud, compared biker to biker with the old warbikers they're worse in my opinion.
With that out of the way, they do become nice with the Painboy attached - because I'd take 5+ FNP over 4+ cover too especially on cheaper bikes. But then again, the Painboy biker is one less painboy someplace else.
Our access to Str 8 weapons are so far and wide between, and usually only ONE model out of a large squad can even take it.
What about the new buggies? Cheaper, cheaper rocket upgrade (free?), and more per squad, and outflanking - most of the benefits of deffkoptas (which assumably lost 4+ cover), trading T5 W2 4+ for AV10 and none of their terrible morale issues.
Or those Mek Guns. Those are good, if we had more stuff like this the Ork codex wouldn't be such a letdown.
Edit:
zachwho wrote: i hope all the cry babies do sell their orks, orkses don't cry. period.
adapt guys, its not all about having powerbuilds, its about building power, about taking the good and trimming off the fat (SKIN THAT SQUIG!!)
Not this gak again. Some players just want a fun codex that plays how Orks are suppost to play. I couldn't give two squigs about "power slamming" my opponents with some new combo. Any argument that assumes that this is the intended goal of the players its directed at is inherently flawed.
Dakkamite wrote: I'm looking at them in isolation, without that Biker Painboy they're crap - unless of course thats a squad upgrade and not an IC. At 18 points each for the loss of exhaust cloud, compared biker to biker with the old warbikers they're worse in my opinion.
You get 40% more bikers for your points. That's 40% more survivability and 40% more killing power.
Under the best possible circumstances, exhaust cloud gave you a 100% boost to survivability. But that was only when you were being shot with weapons of AP 4 or better which didn't have Ignores Cover.
So we traded being 100% better at one specific thing sometimes for being 40% better at almost everything all the time. I'd call that at least a fair exchange. On top of that, we also got 3+ cover when Turbo-Boosting.
The only issue I see if that Deffkoptas were already superior and just got even better, so you only really want bikes now for the ability to put a biker HQ with them.
Dakkamite wrote: I'm looking at them in isolation, without that Biker Painboy they're crap - unless of course thats a squad upgrade and not an IC. At 18 points each for the loss of exhaust cloud, compared biker to biker with the old warbikers they're worse in my opinion.
You get 40% more bikers for your points. That's 40% more survivability and 40% more killing power.
Under the best possible circumstances, exhaust cloud gave you a 100% boost to survivability. But that was only when you were being shot with weapons of AP 4 or better which didn't have Ignores Cover.
So we traded being 100% better at one specific thing sometimes for being 40% better at almost everything all the time. I'd call that at least a fair exchange. On top of that, we also got 3+ cover when Turbo-Boosting.
The only issue I see if that Deffkoptas were already superior and just got even better, so you only really want bikes now for the ability to put a biker HQ with them.
Yeah, BigMek on bike is useful in the bike squad with a KFF, especially on the relic bike, Painboy on bike is also a good fit for the squad.
You can still jink with the bikes, and dropping to snap shots for orks isnt as big a loss as it is to other races.
I've had several armies that I've sold recently eldar waveserpent
spam. i didn't like the play style.
but I've never sold anything i loved, well except my blood crushers, i still regret that. i wish i still had them.
iI'm just trying to say, give this some time, let it sink in, lets find the ribeye together!! remember the pain from a burn is only temporary, but the cool ass scar is forever.
if you dont love the orks, then by all means sell away. but if you love these bald headed freaks, give it some time!
Does the extended Turbo-Boost on the relic bike affect the whole squad or just the character?
Tankbustas are now thirteen points and still no more effective at hunting tanks? Apart from the fact they are elite, they don't seem to offer much.
Do I have it right that Deffkoptas are 30 points with any of the gun options? It seems that a big problem for many ork units will be that Deffkoptas do their job better. Do they get access to killsaws?
Dakkamite wrote: I'm looking at them in isolation, without that Biker Painboy they're crap - unless of course thats a squad upgrade and not an IC. At 18 points each for the loss of exhaust cloud, compared biker to biker with the old warbikers they're worse in my opinion.
You get 40% more bikers for your points. That's 40% more survivability and 40% more killing power.
Under the best possible circumstances, exhaust cloud gave you a 100% boost to survivability. But that was only when you were being shot with weapons of AP 4 or better which didn't have Ignores Cover.
So we traded being 100% better at one specific thing sometimes for being 40% better at almost everything all the time. I'd call that at least a fair exchange. On top of that, we also got 3+ cover when Turbo-Boosting.
The only issue I see if that Deffkoptas were already superior and just got even better, so you only really want bikes now for the ability to put a biker HQ with them.
They also got a hell of a lot more vulnerable to pie-plates, losing 83% of models under the template instead of 42%, and having more models under it too because of bigger squads. Because thats what I'm worried about - the lasguns, bolters, and other small arms can be dealt to with mobility. Gigantic, long range S7+ AP4+ pie plates cannot, and will kill more bikes than ever. And each plate dropped on the bike is a lot of dead points, not pie plates that aren't 'dropped on something more valuable' as I often see tossed about.
Lloyld wrote: There is no way to make everyone happy, if GW gave away free rulebooks with the codex and a free Battlewagon kit with every codex release some people would complain that they wanted a different model.
And somehow you think your comments here invalidate the criticisms levelled at the Ork Codex thus far? We've got people giving us information of what's in the Codex, we can use our reading comprehension skills to make judgements and comparisons with the last Ork Codex... but we're not allowed to do this because... what?
Goresaw wrote: Man, the heavy support slot is going to be HIGHLY contested. Between Big Gunz, Lootaz, and the good ol Battlewagons, they're really not going to be any room there a all.
On one hand, I'm sad to see fearless go. On the other.... it'll be nice to have a mob of 30 boyz go to ground in a ruin, or be able to flee from a pointless combat (weapons are useless!).
The return of the old Waagh is nice... but whats the point? A 'competitive' ork army shoots.
All in all, it looks like we just got Tyranided. Its the same thing as our last book.
This is one thing Im actually glad to have back. I still rush for assaults, because it feels orky. Orks can do a lot in melee, but we just have to get there. And with us being able to cover more ground, that helps a boat load. Especially with Trukk Boyz with their extra +2 inches with boarding planks. I just wish Orks had better tools to chip away at some heavier targets and didn't have to feel so reliant on just the single PK per mob. :(
I've had several armies that I've sold recently eldar waveserpent
spam. i didn't like the play style.
but I've never sold anything i loved, well except my blood crushers, i still regret that. i wish i still had them.
iI'm just trying to say, give this some time, let it sink in, lets find the ribeye together!! remember the pain from a burn is only temporary, but the cool ass scar is forever.
if you dont love the orks, then by all means sell away. but if you love these bald headed freaks, give it some time!
Ah, sorry my bad hard to tell the tone in a message, I totally agree with you though on giving yourself some time to work with the changes before up and selling or shelving an army. That being said what aspects of the new book do you feel most excited about?
can you tell me what orks are supposed to play like? what it is that makes them fun? maybe for you, but not for me and everyone else.
i think orks should be powerslamming other armies, and i fully plan to. you telling me I'm flawed for my perception is well, you know flawed.
Everyone has their own idea of how Orks *should* play - and as many posts in this thread have shown, the new codex is not living up to expectations.
Only one of us presumes to tell others how they should be playing and what the proper means of enjoying the game is. The other thinks that all ork players should be adapting to the codex to powerslam their opponents.
Theres nothing wrong with playing like that, but there is everything wrong with assuming we all play like that, and that we are all happy to simply "adapt" and play a new way that we may not enjoy in order to win.
One thing that I don't really understand, is that GW continues to sell those 1-click collections, some of them with really high price tag.
When you start looking for models on the new website, what you first see are collections of a few $100 at least, and even above $1000 for some of them (like the new Split-Grin Bad Moons collection)
it gives to me a strange feeling, that 40k is an "elite" game, for people who got the cash, while I would have thought that the "target" are teenagers who usually don't have that kind of money to spend
this feeling is strengthen by the cost of some of the new Ork releases: 'Orkanaut almost as expensive as Stompa, Flash Gitz twice as expensive as Nobz but much less flexible in terms of pose and apparently not as much leftover bits, Mek Gunz twice as expensive as the Big Gunz, though yes they are bigger, but they don't have that much bits left to help you make a 2nd one
I do sincerely hope that some new boxes will come up quickly, with interesting rebates (battleforce and megaforce type of deal would be great)
nflagey wrote: One thing that I don't really understand, is that GW continues to sell those 1-click collections, some of them with really high price tag.
When you start looking for models on the new website, what you first see are collections of a few $100 at least, and even above $1000 for some of them (like the new Split-Grin Bad Moons collection)
it gives to me a strange feeling, that 40k is an "elite" game, for people who got the cash, while I would have thought that the "target" are teenagers who usually don't have that kind of money to spend
this feeling is strengthen by the cost of some of the new Ork releases: 'Orkanaut almost as expensive as Stompa, Flash Gitz twice as expensive as Nobz but much less flexible in terms of pose and apparently not as much leftover bits, Mek Gunz twice as expensive as the Big Gunz, though yes they are bigger, but they don't have that much bits left to help you make a 2nd one
I do sincerely hope that some new boxes will come up quickly, with interesting rebates (battleforce and megaforce type of deal would be great)
I never did understand why they don't at least have the one-clicks be a discount even something small like 10-20% off. Heck, often when I see the one-click bundles I feel less like buying from them, but when they do actually deals like the 3 eldar War Walkers bundle then I feel like buying.
ok dakkamite, i like you man. wish we could play over some beer and hot wings.
I'm personally excited about the ability to change our foc, and take 9 troops. objective secured is important. and AND burnas in a dedicated trukk!!!! I'm so excited, and i just can't hide it!!!
zachwho wrote: ok dakkamite, i like you man. wish we could play over some beer and hot wings.
I'm personally excited about the ability to change our foc, and take 9 troops. objective secured is important. and AND burnas in a dedicated trukk!!!! I'm so excited, and i just can't hide it!!!
Just when you thought the green tide list had a lot of boyz before, now you can have almost 300 orks in the troops slot alone. Though painting that many models seems... extreme.
zachwho wrote: ok dakkamite, i like you man. wish we could play over some beer and hot wings.
I'm personally excited about the ability to change our foc, and take 9 troops. objective secured is important. and AND burnas in a dedicated trukk!!!! I'm so excited, and i just can't hide it!!!
Just when you thought the green tide list had a lot of boyz before, now you can have almost 300 orks in the troops slot alone. Though painting that many models seems... extreme.
Shogun
adamsouza wrote: bunch of stuff already covered so we can keep the repeat questions down.
HQs listed as
Zagstruk Grotsnik Mek is a slotless HQ, 1 per actual HQ bought
Big Mek does not change FoC Painboy Warboss does not change FoC Weirdboy. Badrukk is a HQ (3+, 5++, str 7 AP2 assault 3 gun) , Badrukk has the rules listed for Da Rippa, but it is not listed in his wargear
Snikrot is not HQ, Snikkrot an elite (doesnt take a slot if taken with Kommandos) (shrouded on arrival, you pick an edge to outflank dont roll)
No Wazdakka
No Zogwort.
Ghaz is a LOW now, can take runts/squigs, stats look unchaged
D6 Warlord Trait 1 Prophet of the Waaagh!: Mork (or possibly Gork) has chosen this Warlord for greatness, and every Ork under his command knows it.
The Warlord gains the Waaagh! special rule. If the Warlord already has the Waaagh! special rule then, in addition to the usual effects, all friendly models with the ’Ere We Go! special rule gain the Fearless special rule when he calls a Waaagh!, until the start of their next turn.
2 Bellowing Tyrant: This Warlord is an unholy terror, a roaring lunatic whose every (very loud) word is law.
The Warlord, and all friendly units with the Orks Faction within 12" of him, re-roll failed Morale checks and Pinning tests.
3 Like a Thunderbolt!: This Warlord is a master of the all-out, no-holds-barred, headlong charge into battle.
The Warlord, and all friendly units with the Orks Faction within 12" of him, can re-roll all the dice when determining Run moves or charge range.
4 Brutal but Kunnin’: This Warlord has a sneaky streak a mile wide and knows just where to hit his foes.
The Warlord can re-roll one failed To Hit or To Wound roll each turn.
5 Kunnin’ but Brutal: The Warlord knows when to roll with a punch, and can shrug off the hardest blows.
The Warlord can re-roll one failed armour or invulnerable saving throw each turn.
6 Might is Right: Made of muscle and aggression, this Warlord is the embodiment of the Orks’ warlike nature.
The Warlord receives +1 to the Strength characteristic on his profile.
Buggys don't get new weapons, do get Grot Riggers at 10 points.
Not seen anything about FNP at all yet.
Grot riggers don't just work for IWND on 'nauts, any vehicle that has them, but cost per vehicle seems to differ. 20 to put them on a 'naut. BW don't seem to have the option.
Looks to be a lot more options with selecting wargear for meks
"A Big Mek may take items from the Mek Weapons, Melee Weapons, Runts & Squigs, Orky Know-wots and/or Gifts of Gork and Mork lists."
Mob rule is replaced by the D6 roll, yes.
Kustom Mega Slugga is a thing.
A Big Mek with mega armour can take one of the following
- Tellyport blasta Tellyporta blasta is the back mouned thing I've been describing and seems... uh, situational at best? Very short range weapon but causes instant death on a 6 wound. Rolling a 6 on AP causes a penetrating hit regardless of AV.
- Kustom force field
- Shock attack gun roll of double 6 is vortex!!!
- KFF can be combined with mega armour and bikes, Shock attack gun seems to be combinable with bikes.
- Git finda on SAG mek?
Relics: Gifts of Gork and Mork
Da Dead Shiny Shoota 6 shots twinlinked shoota, rolls of 1 hit one of your own units
Da Finkin’ Kap gives your warlord an additional trait from the strategic list.
Da Fixer Upperz
Da Lucky Stikk
Headwoppa’s Killchoppa is a +2 str, AP5, rending choppa that beheads on a roll of 6 (insta death).
Warboss Gazbag’s Blitzbike has an AP3 deff gun on it
Mob Chart D6 Result
1 If the unit is locked in combat, it passes the Morale check or Pinning test. If the unit is not locked in combat, it fails.
2-3 If the unit includes one or more Ork characters (including Independent Characters), it suffers D6 Strength 4 AP- hits, and is then treated as if it had passed the Morale check or Pinning test.
4-6 If the unit has 10 or more models, it suffers D6 Strength 4 AP- hits, and is then treated as if it had passed the Morale check or Pinning test. The hits are Randomly Allocated. If the unit has fewer than 10 models, it fails the Morale check or Pinning test.
Boss Pole gives Reroll on the mob chart.
Stompa in as super heavy
Battle Wagon up 20 points.
Killkannon still lowers transport on BW
Attack squig nerfed to 1 reroll in melee per turn
Tankbustas can shoot at whatever they like, and Bustas and Burnas can take dedicated trukks
Kommandos get Stealth, no point hike
Ramshackle got clobbered.. 6+ save when you take a pen, if successful downgrade to glance
Buggies in units of 5, gained outflank and a minor point decrease.
Rule for planks is a little complicated. If you get out of open topped and declare a charge, add 2 to the charge range
Deffrolla gains AP4 and loses half the hits
Lootas Heavy Support and cheaper (5 points less per squad)
Kans come in 6 packs, NO twin guns, NO Troop choice option, have special morale rule
If you take an Ork Warband detachment, you can Waaaagh every turn after the first
Weirdboys gain a Warp Charge point if there are 10 or more models with the 'ere we go rule (Pretty much any Ork from what I've seen) in 12" but has to take a psychic save or take a hit.
Power of the Waaagh! and Daemonlogy disciplines.
Can be upgraded to Psyker level 2.
Ork psychic powers are all cool. Either high strength, or teleport, large blast etc.
Primaris power is Frazzle (Blast witchfire).
'Eadbanger is now a focussed witchfire.
Warpath is a self blessing
Da jump is what used to be 'ere we go.
Killbolt is a beam attack.
Power vomit is a template witchfire.
Da Krunch is a barrage witchfire.
Cheap IWND on vehicles (5 points on Kans, 10 on dreds)
Painboy is IC, so put him where you need him, can take a bike.
Dedi transports available for burnas and tank bustas now
Warboss/Bigmek Mega Armor Kit is a thing
Ork boys cost 1 less point, but Shoota is 1 pt ugrade now
The HQ Mek (not Big Mek) has Boy statline
Pain Boys can not get 'Eavy Amor?
Zzap gun 2D6, gets hot on a 1-3 if you roll 11 or 12
Mostly witchfires.
A 18" S 10 Beam (WC 2).
An AP 2 template (WC 2 again).
Couple of blasts (one is the primaris, the other is random S)
A focussed witchfire which causes a wound if the target fail a toughness test (between rolling to hit and a rather weak effect, can't see that being used much).
Plus a couple of blessings. One of which teleports the weirdboy and his unit, the other one boosts close combat ability.
Melcavuk, I have another question for you: do Meganobz still use 2 spots in transport? even in the 'Orkanaut?
And the following question has been asked, not sure it has been answered: what about Stormboyz assaulting flyers? was that just crazy rumor/wishlisting?
nflagey wrote:Melcavuk, I have another question for you: do Meganobz still use 2 spots in transport? even in the 'Orkanaut?
And the following question has been asked, not sure it has been answered: what about Stormboyz assaulting flyers? was that just crazy rumor/wishlisting?
Theyre bulky so yes.
No assaulting flyers
zachwho wrote:he's back!!
points cost and upgrades the same on Trukks?
30 points flat. Not at my codex atm so cant list off upgrade costs
I do believe the two most buffed units in the new codex are Deffkopters and Lobbas, due to their substantial cost reductions.
Ironically, Deffkopters still have their ancient metal models, and Lobbas aren't in the new mek gun kits.
The slight drop on tankbustas' ppm is likely due to the fact they can only glance vehicles to death with their shooting as it's AP3, same with Lootas, and Deffcoptas now that I think about it.
None of our common weapons can destroy a vehicle in any way other than glancing it to death. We're even more reliant on Power Klaws to do the heavy lifting now.
zachwho wrote: ok dakkamite, i like you man. wish we could play over some beer and hot wings.
I'm personally excited about the ability to change our foc, and take 9 troops. objective secured is important. and AND burnas in a dedicated trukk!!!! I'm so excited, and i just can't hide it!!!
So you like throwing expensive units into an vehicle that still just as easily results in mass conflagration? I'm not cool with that.
you didn't ask me what you were cool with. you asked what i was excited about. i have no idea what you're cool with. do you like pringles? I'm cool with them.
Tankbusta bomb is now a melta bomb, not sure if thats different from before (str 8 AP1, unwieldy, armourbane does seem an advantage on the old "krak but 2D6 armour pen). They derfinately have the tank hunter special rule listed in their special rules. they definately got a 2 point decrease, can take a trukk, and get 2 VP for first blood if they blow up a tank.
Kommandos got move through cover, stealth and infiltrate.
I think buggies + deffkoptas + kommandos + stormboyz + super-fast boyz assaulting out of trukkz or wagons, are going to make for a really, really nasty Ork army that is in your face on Turn 2 wherever you are on the battlefield.
I don't usually play Orks myself, but my son does, and I think he'll be beating me regularly once he has a couple of games under his belt with the new codex.
Melcavuk wrote: Oooh, missed something./ Tankbustas got Tank Hunter along with their 2 point decrease? thats good right?
That's really good.
EDIT: Melta Tankbusta bombs is gravy, but probably not really needed. Any vehicle getting assaulted by tankbustas was incredibly dead anyway. Makes them better against monstrous creatures though?
With tank hunter, melta bombs, a price decrease and a trukk the Tankbustas seem pretty reasonable anti tank now. Especially since tank hunter works in melee too (armour bane with rerolls to pen and AP1)
Melcavuk wrote: Tankbusta bomb is now a melta bomb, not sure if thats different from before (str 8 AP1, unwieldy, armourbane does seem an advantage on the old "krak but 2D6 armour pen). They derfinately have the tank hunter special rule listed in their special rules. they definately got a 2 point decrease, can take a trukk, and get 2 VP for first blood if they blow up a tank.
Kommandos got move through cover, stealth and infiltrate.
Snikrot causes fear.
Great news for the bustas, I knew all these efforts building them will pay!
Do Kommandos get Tankbusta bomb?
They have been carrying mines and explosives for years without any way to use them...
Damn tankbustas are sweet. So tempted to convert myself several mobs if only to try and get a vehicle first blood...
Either way, I see myself adding a few mobs of 'bustas to my orks...
Melcavuk wrote: Kommados can take burnas as one of their special weapons, however they can only take 2 in a mob.
Stupid me they always could.
Well so they are pretty the same lads then.
If they definitively do not want them to have bombs or any sort
(well these mines and dynamites are not frag grenades!) they should redo the models,
even if I like the actual ones.
I kinda feel like converting my old Kommando Nob (the current metal one) into a tankbusta nob, just cause I like the model so much. Dunno how I'd do it, though.
I am actually really pumped. They didn't ruin the army for me and most of the supposed "ruinings" people are complaining about are responses to the shift in the FOC.
No bikers or deff dredds at Troop? Are you really surprised? It wasn't necessary this edition for one single reason: Unbound.
As much as we (or at least a fairly large percentage of we) dislike the mechanic, it is the way to go if you are putting a biker list or deff dredd list on the table. People have said a few times they need to wait for the Kult data slate or a dredd slate to get to field their army. WHat you need is the ability to properly communicate and discuss the issue with your friends. Pining away for something that is unlikely to ever see the light of day isn't the best choice.
Have a frank discussion with your playmates. Tell them you want to use bikers or dreads like last edition. Tell them it isn't a power play, just a desire to run the army you have or have always wanted.
Biker and Dredd lists are exactly what unbound was designed to allow. THinking they would make it redundant with specific allocations for such armies is unreasonable. Though this isGW, so there is a fairly high chance that unreasonable choices will occur!
So all our old armies are not worthless? Don't know about you guys but Im just looking at my army and it makes no sense any more.
My Nobz who were considered troops are now fighting for space with my kommandos.
My Lootaz are now fighting for a spot with other heavies.
My Big Mek with KFF cant cover the blob of Shootas and Kans I have.
My Deff Dread ( troop)has no spot in the army because it is already full.
Now I am confused:
Is Big mek and Mek same thing now? Is my Big Mek still considered HQ or is he a normal Mek now? How many Meks /Big Meks can I have?
Who will take Lootaz now since they are heavies? they are in competition with Flash Gitz + Kans + Battlewagons.
The Nobz get Bikes but their upgrade is more expensive than it is to give a bike to a character?
HQ now is only Warboss and Painboy? or am i wrong? Wyrdboyz and Meks are are not HQ?
Do i have to follow 3 HQ and 3 Troops or can i stick to 2Hq and 2 Troops?
Am I right the new codex compels us to be a shooty army now?
since all can take heavy armor (ard boyz) that means it will be compulsory to get this upgrade in the future? since Orks have become such a squishy army.
What good is cybork bodies upgrade now? and how do i get access to it?
can some one please answer these questions for me? I am going crazy here :(
Does Kustom Force Field still measure from OUTSIDE the hull in which the Mek resides? E.g. can we still get 5++ saves for battlewagons in a 6" radius from a Big Mek's KFF inside a vehicle?
TedNugent wrote: Does Kustom Force Field still measure from OUTSIDE the hull in which the Mek resides? E.g. can we still get 5++ saves for battlewagons in a 6" radius from a Big Mek's KFF inside a vehicle?
TedNugent wrote: Does Kustom Force Field still measure from OUTSIDE the hull in which the Mek resides? E.g. can we still get 5++ saves for battlewagons in a 6" radius from a Big Mek's KFF inside a vehicle?
Musibatkhan wrote: So all our old armies are not worthless? Don't know about you guys but Im just looking at my army and it makes no sense any more.
My Nobz who were considered troops are now fighting for space with my kommandos.
My Lootaz are now fighting for a spot with other heavies.
My Big Mek with KFF cant cover the blob of Shootas and Kans I have.
My Deff Dread ( troop)has no spot in the army because it is already full.
Now I am confused:
None of the above are necessarily an issue unless you are using a single FOC. Well the big mek is.
The KFF can still cover cans and troops, just in a 6" bubble around the mek. Put him in the middle of the unit, let the mans bases touch his bubble and just have a few guys in front of him to grind through. Other than barrage weapons, casualties are removed from the closest models to the shooter. Saves are taken by those models. Make sure they are covered and the enemy needs to kill all of the models with KFF saves first. If you have 10 guys out of 30 with KFF saves and they are closest to the shooters, it doesn't matter that the rest are not covered.
Is Big mek and Mek same thing now? Is my Big Mek still considered HQ or is he a normal Mek now? How many Meks /Big Meks can I have?
No. Big Mek takes an HQ slot and Meks are the same as they were in loot and burn units. You can take one of them per HQ.
Who will take Lootaz now since they are heavies? they are in competition with Flash Gitz + Kans + Battlewagons.
Not really. They do totally different jobs. A unit of lootas is still a great choice.
The Nobz get Bikes but their upgrade is more expensive than it is to give a bike to a character?
Supposedly nobs on bikes are the same price as 4th edition.
HQ now is only Warboss and Painboy? or am i wrong? Wyrdboyz and Meks are are not HQ?
Read the rumors more closely, this has been stated a dozen times over the last 20 pages.
Do i have to follow 3 HQ and 3 Troops or can i stick to 2Hq and 2 Troops?
No, you can use the regular.
Am I right the new codex compels us to be a shooty army now?
Waagh and Here we go pretty makes us a good assault army. Better than last edition when you add boarding planks to the trukks and wagons.
since all can take heavy armor (ard boyz) that means it will be compulsory to get this upgrade in the future? since Orks have become such a squishy army.
For almost double the price? No, I think not. With the increase in vehicles for 7th, you are less likely to see the sort of horde destroying massed infantry that was in 6th and parts of 5th. You will be fine with the supposedly squishy orks. Stay strong.
What good is cybork bodies upgrade now? and how do i get access to it?
can some one please answer these questions for me? I am going crazy here :(
Cybork did take a hit right in the join. Characters can get it but it is just a FNP 6+ now apparently.
Musibatkhan wrote: Is Big mek and Mek same thing now? Is my Big Mek still considered HQ or is he a normal Mek now? How many Meks /Big Meks can I have?
Big Mek and Mek are different units. Big Mek is a normal HQ choice. Mek is a special HQ choice which doesn't take up a slot but is limited to one per other HQ choice. You could take two big meks and two meks in a combined arms detachment, or a warboss, a big mek and two meks, etc.
Musibatkhan wrote: Who will take Lootaz now since they are heavies? they are in competition with Flash Gitz + Kans + Battlewagons.
People who want long-range, static firepower which is effective against a wide range of targets.
Musibatkhan wrote: The Nobz get Bikes but their upgrade is more expensive than it is to give a bike to a character?
Yes.
Musibatkhan wrote: HQ now is only Warboss and Painboy? or am i wrong? Wyrdboyz and Meks are are not HQ?
Warboss, Painboy, Weirdboy and Big Mek are all standard HQ choices.
Musibatkhan wrote: Do i have to follow 3 HQ and 3 Troops or can i stick to 2Hq and 2 Troops?
You can choose whichever you like.
Musibatkhan wrote: Am I right the new codex compels us to be a shooty army now?
No, it gives several options for getting into combat more quickly.
Musibatkhan wrote: since all can take heavy armor (ard boyz) that means it will be compulsory to get this upgrade in the future? since Orks have become such a squishy army.
Painboys might well be better than eavy armour for larger units. Possibly better than the old KFF too, for footsloggers.
Musibatkhan wrote: What good is cybork bodies upgrade now? and how do i get access to it?
Very little and through the 'orky know wats' wargear section.
Musibatkhan wrote: So all our old armies are not worthless? Don't know about you guys but Im just looking at my army and it makes no sense any more.
My Nobz who were considered troops are now fighting for space with my kommandos.
Did you really take more than a single squad of Kommandos anyway? They're both cheaper too.
My Big Mek with KFF cant cover the blob of Shootas and Kans I have.
You only need to cover the front rank and the Kans close in front. This is not particularly difficult and now Big Meks can take a Bike + KFF, and we can get the KFF from Morkanauts.
My Deff Dread ( troop)has no spot in the army because it is already full.
Take a combined arms detachment for an extra HS slot.
Now I am confused:
Is Big mek and Mek same thing now? Is my Big Mek still considered HQ or is he a normal Mek now? How many Meks /Big Meks can I have?
1) No.
2) Big Mek HQ, normal Mek slotless.
3) 0-3 Big Meks (as each is 1 HQ slot) and presumably 0-3 Meks.
Who will take Lootaz now since they are heavies? they are in competition with Flash Gitz + Kans + Battlewagons.
We'll still be seeing plenty of Lootas, they're cheaper and still one of the best S7 output units in the game.
The Nobz get Bikes but their upgrade is more expensive than it is to give a bike to a character?
Yeah, sucks, but anyone that succumbed to that tiresome Deathstar craze was no 'kunnin Ork anyway.
HQ now is only Warboss and Painboy? or am i wrong? Wyrdboyz and Meks are are not HQ?
They all are, but Meks (not Big Meks) work like Techmarines and are slotless.
Do i have to follow 3 HQ and 3 Troops or can i stick to 2Hq and 2 Troops?
No, from what I've seen Besides I believe the former gives you bonuses but you only need to take an extra troops choice.
Am I right the new codex compels us to be a shooty army now?
All armies are best made shooty, and not all of our melee units are bad.
since all can take heavy armor (ard boyz) that means it will be compulsory to get this upgrade in the future? since Orks have become such a squishy army.
Almost certainly not. More Boys is better than toys most of the time.
What good is cybork bodies upgrade now? and how do i get access to it?
PhillyT wrote: I am actually really pumped. They didn't ruin the army for me and most of the supposed "ruinings" people are complaining about are responses to the shift in the FOC.
No bikers or deff dredds at Troop? Are you really surprised? It wasn't necessary this edition for one single reason: Unbound.
As much as we (or at least a fairly large percentage of we) dislike the mechanic, it is the way to go if you are putting a biker list or deff dredd list on the table. People have said a few times they need to wait for the Kult data slate or a dredd slate to get to field their army. WHat you need is the ability to properly communicate and discuss the issue with your friends. Pining away for something that is unlikely to ever see the light of day isn't the best choice.
Have a frank discussion with your playmates. Tell them you want to use bikers or dreads like last edition. Tell them it isn't a power play, just a desire to run the army you have or have always wanted.
Biker and Dredd lists are exactly what unbound was designed to allow. THinking they would make it redundant with specific allocations for such armies is unreasonable. Though this isGW, so there is a fairly high chance that unreasonable choices will occur!
As soon as you start with unbound you will have to write a house rule as thick as a phonebook deciding what is ok and what is OP.
Good luck trying to convince a TO that your unbound list is actually not at all Power gaming.
As soon as you start with unbound you will have to write a house rule as thick as a phonebook deciding what is ok and what is OP.
Good luck trying to convince a TO that your unbound list is actually not at all Power gaming.
If their list is unreasonable, don't play it.
Tell them ahead of time what you want to do and see what they think.
Astra Millitarum violate the regular force organization chart like no other army. The FOC shouldn't be a restriction unless you force it.
Use the biker boss from IA8 to get bikes as troops. Use the dredd mob list for dredd heavy lists (and allies to get some of the things not listed.
If your group doesn't allow FW, tell them to go play Magic because they are leeching the fun out of a glorified board game and need better hobbies.
) but yes, all heavy supports, its a crowded slot.
.
Otherwise not much change.
Most incorrect. Mega-Armored Nobs used to have Medi-squigs. These were internal to their mega-armor and gave them, in addition to their 2+ save, an additional, subsequent, unmodified 4+ save vs. each wound. 
