Their trait already encourages DA to be a boring gunline, and this is doubling down on that. But dull as it may be, they'll be good at it.
Maybe? It ups double tap range.
which makes your hellblastrs double tapping at 18 inches range. (your bolt rifler intercessors if they're on the move as well) potentially pretty good.
cole1114 wrote: So pretty much all the dangels stuff has supposedly leaked. I dunno if I can post it all but there's some neat stuff. Couple examples (not the full thing, because again I dunno if it's ok to post it all) below.
Spoiler:
Doctrine
Whilst the Devastator Doctrine is active, the range characteristic of all Heavy and Rapid Fire weapons equipped on DARK ANGELS units with this ability is increased by 6", and the range characteristic of all Assault and Pistol weapons equipped on Dark Angels units with this ability is increased by 3"
Litany
If this litany is inspiring, then when a friendly DARK ANGELS INFANTRY unit that is within 6" of this unit and did not ADVANCE or FALL BACK this turn is chosen to shoot with, models in that unit can shoot with ranged weapons as if their unit had remained stationary.
a range buff for devestatore doctrine? that's actually intreasting. It's not gonna be game breaking but could be pretty useful.
They also get a 2CP stratagem to let a deathwing unit deepstrike within 6" of a ravenwing unit, and outside of 6" of an enemy unit. And a bunch more stuff.
Sick. Where are you seeing these? PM me if you can't post
There's a lot of stuff in here that makes playing dangels in *wildly different ways* more viable. I actually really love this super doctrine, because it's the first one we've seen that might actually be worth eventually moving past.
Looks like most of the new stuff is focused on death wing and raven guard. thats good, as a lot of DA players have been feeling it's not very well focused this edition
BrianDavion wrote: Looks like most of the new stuff is focused on death wing and raven guard. thats good, as a lot of DA players have been feeling it's not very well focused this edition
Sadly, i don't think this is going to be enough to make my all Deathwing army from 3rd viable again.
cole1114 wrote: So pretty much all the dangels stuff has supposedly leaked. I dunno if I can post it all but there's some neat stuff. Couple examples (not the full thing, because again I dunno if it's ok to post it all) below.
Spoiler:
Doctrine
Whilst the Devastator Doctrine is active, the range characteristic of all Heavy and Rapid Fire weapons equipped on DARK ANGELS units with this ability is increased by 6", and the range characteristic of all Assault and Pistol weapons equipped on Dark Angels units with this ability is increased by 3"
Litany
If this litany is inspiring, then when a friendly DARK ANGELS INFANTRY unit that is within 6" of this unit and did not ADVANCE or FALL BACK this turn is chosen to shoot with, models in that unit can shoot with ranged weapons as if their unit had remained stationary.
a range buff for devestatore doctrine? that's actually intreasting. It's not gonna be game breaking but could be pretty useful.
They also get a 2CP stratagem to let a deathwing unit deepstrike within 6" of a ravenwing unit, and outside of 6" of an enemy unit. And a bunch more stuff.
Sick. Where are you seeing these? PM me if you can't post
There's a lot of stuff in here that makes playing dangels in *wildly different ways* more viable. I actually really love this super doctrine, because it's the first one we've seen that might actually be worth eventually moving past.
Thanks! A very interesting read!
Hopefully we can get the same for TSons and GKs as well at some point.
With these buffs a balanced list GW, RW, DW will be quite fearsome.
It is also sporting a super doctrine which does exactly what it should.
The list will start in dev doctrine and use the improved range to lay the first strike. Then you switch to assault doctrine and use the ravenwing to drop a deathwing in easy assault range (you can do this with a dark talon too, so you have a lot of freedom where to position them). The turn 2 shooting phase and assault phase will be murderous.
Spoletta wrote: With these buffs a balanced list GW, RW, DW will be quite fearsome.
It is also sporting a super doctrine which does exactly what it should.
The list will start in dev doctrine and use the improved range to lay the first strike. Then you switch to assault doctrine and use the ravenwing to drop a deathwing in easy assault range (you can do this with a dark talon too, so you have a lot of freedom where to position them). The turn 2 shooting phase and assault phase will be murderous.
agreed. Dark Angels won't be as point and click as some marines (Iron Hands for example) but I like how they'll synergize with doctrines
Can I just ask - with the updated stratagems etc, do we still get to keep the ones in the codex like weapons of the dark age? I believe ones like killshot got FAQ’d to no longer be useable but it would be terrible to lose what is arguably our strongest stratagem...!
Atroxus wrote: Can I just ask - with the updated stratagems etc, do we still get to keep the ones in the codex like weapons of the dark age? I believe ones like killshot got FAQ’d to no longer be useable but it would be terrible to lose what is arguably our strongest stratagem...!
Killshot is gone because the new Codex: Space Marines replaced the old one.
No other marine faction has a new codex, so they can use PA content alongside their old codex.
New Dark Angels are great. Points already dropped in CA. Now, no penalty from moving for Sammael, Talonmasters, the 6 flyers, or Black Knights advancing and shooting, who can also ambush with the second warlord trait and assault first turn if necessary.
Ravenwing jumped into top 6 factions for team tournaments etc. instantly, and before next summer’s ETC we might have about 4 of the 8 players per team playing Marines, and the fifth Chaos Space Marines (Lords of Skulls or the Possessed/Talons list).
On of my buddies plays dark angels and talking it through with him, this feels like one of the better if not best doctrines so far, since even within devastator the other weapon types get a valid buff. Flamers in particular benefit nicely.
I am liking what I see from Dark Angels. My brother plays them, so I can't wait to see his Ravenwing hit the board. They will be strong as hell, but my Crimson Fists will be up to the task.
Both. They should get Primaris scale models and the statline
With GW saying no Primaris I imagine they'll get such an update in the far future.
There was actually a recent FB post were the community people said 'maybe in the future', which is more than they've said before. It will happen eventually, I'm just a bit disappointed that it it now. But it it understandable, it would be a pretty big update as they would need several new kits. Not that the GK have that many dedicated kits to begin with so it is still an update that could be done in one batch.
cole1114 wrote: So pretty much all the dangels stuff has supposedly leaked. I dunno if I can post it all but there's some neat stuff. Couple examples (not the full thing, because again I dunno if it's ok to post it all) below.
Spoiler:
Doctrine
Whilst the Devastator Doctrine is active, the range characteristic of all Heavy and Rapid Fire weapons equipped on DARK ANGELS units with this ability is increased by 6", and the range characteristic of all Assault and Pistol weapons equipped on Dark Angels units with this ability is increased by 3"
Litany
If this litany is inspiring, then when a friendly DARK ANGELS INFANTRY unit that is within 6" of this unit and did not ADVANCE or FALL BACK this turn is chosen to shoot with, models in that unit can shoot with ranged weapons as if their unit had remained stationary.
a range buff for devestatore doctrine? that's actually intreasting. It's not gonna be game breaking but could be pretty useful.
That combined with the new litany makes Hellblasters look decent again.
I don't know if it's just me but this TS preview looks very disappointing? specially if compared to GK.
No passive bonus of any kind, so most of the army still doesn't have any trait at all,
Time Flux looks decent, but doesn't really have any good target for, maybe just SoT but they are a very underwhelming unit to begin with.
The trait and relic shown are totally MEH, I have a feeling that TS will remain just a Codex Supreme Command detachment still...
deTox91 wrote: I don't know if it's just me but this TS preview looks very disappointing? specially if compared to GK. No passive bonus of any kind, so most of the army still doesn't have any trait at all, Time Flux looks decent, but doesn't really have any good target for, maybe just SoT but they are a very underwhelming unit to begin with. The trait and relic shown are totally MEH, I have a feeling that TS will remain just a Codex Supreme Command detachment still...
I'm having the complete opposite reaction, I think this looks great!
Chaos psychic apothecaries? Yes please!
Auto re-deploys? Yes please!
Auto-pass your powers while forcing failures on your enemies? That's tight!
Plus isn't everyone complaining that they're being too free with passive bonuses? Having cool abilities locked behind mechanic requirements seems like the best of both worlds.
deTox91 wrote: I don't know if it's just me but this TS preview looks very disappointing? specially if compared to GK.
No passive bonus of any kind, so most of the army still doesn't have any trait at all,
Time Flux looks decent, but doesn't really have any good target for, maybe just SoT but they are a very underwhelming unit to begin with.
The trait and relic shown are totally MEH, I have a feeling that TS will remain just a Codex Supreme Command detachment still...
the new strat is OP and will totally feth you in half.
IMAGINE taking 20 rubrics with flamers for the low low cost of 480 pts and deploying them in your opponent's face.
thats TONS OF DAMAGE and has LITTERALLY NO COUNTERS.
Except being seized, or marines deploying their "no deepstrike allowed" units or being a super fragile expensive bomb in your opponents face.....
god i hope the sons get more interesting stuff in the rest of the book.
deTox91 wrote: I don't know if it's just me but this TS preview looks very disappointing? specially if compared to GK.
No passive bonus of any kind, so most of the army still doesn't have any trait at all,
Time Flux looks decent, but doesn't really have any good target for, maybe just SoT but they are a very underwhelming unit to begin with.
The trait and relic shown are totally MEH, I have a feeling that TS will remain just a Codex Supreme Command detachment still...
I'm having the complete opposite reaction, I think this looks great!
Chaos psychic apothecaries? Yes please!
Auto re-deploys? Yes please!
Auto-pass your powers while forcing failures on your enemies? That's tight!
Plus isn't everyone complaining that they're being too free with passive bonuses? Having cool abilities locked behind mechanic requirements seems like the best of both worlds.
Auto re-deploy -> in your deployment zone which costs a warlord trait, in an army that has no way to take more then 1.
Auto-pass powers -> IF you roll a 1, on a single psychic test, and costs a relic slot which also don't come cheap.
on the passive bonuses I would agree with you if it wasn't for the constant disparity between Imperium and not Imperium, and SM keep on getting tones of passives, nobody else does, this creates a hell of a disadvantage for everybody that doesn't bath in the emperors "light", really being on the receiving end it sucks
also this just noticed that you're a DA player, so I can feel a very strong bias given that you KNOW that tomorrow you'll be reviewing all your PASSIVE abilities that apparently are a problem if anybody else gets...
deTox91 wrote: I don't know if it's just me but this TS preview looks very disappointing? specially if compared to GK.
No passive bonus of any kind, so most of the army still doesn't have any trait at all,
Time Flux looks decent, but doesn't really have any good target for, maybe just SoT but they are a very underwhelming unit to begin with.
The trait and relic shown are totally MEH, I have a feeling that TS will remain just a Codex Supreme Command detachment still...
I'm having the complete opposite reaction, I think this looks great!
Chaos psychic apothecaries? Yes please!
Auto re-deploys? Yes please!
Auto-pass your powers while forcing failures on your enemies? That's tight!
Plus isn't everyone complaining that they're being too free with passive bonuses? Having cool abilities locked behind mechanic requirements seems like the best of both worlds.
Auto re-deploy -> in your deployment zone which costs a warlord trait, in an army that has no way to take more then 1.
Auto-pass powers -> IF you roll a 1, on a single psychic test, and costs a relic slot which also don't come cheap.
on the passive bonuses I would agree with you if it wasn't for the constant disparity between Imperium and not Imperium, and SM keep on getting tones of passives, nobody else does, this creates a hell of a disadvantage for everybody that doesn't lick the emperors toes, really on the receiving end it sucks
also this just noticed that you're a DA player, so I can feel a very strong bias given that you KNOW that tomorrow you'll be reviewing all your PASSIVE abilities that apparently are a problem if anybody else gets...
Good to know my argument is invalid not on it's merits but based on the army I play.
deTox91 wrote: I don't know if it's just me but this TS preview looks very disappointing? specially if compared to GK.
No passive bonus of any kind, so most of the army still doesn't have any trait at all,
Time Flux looks decent, but doesn't really have any good target for, maybe just SoT but they are a very underwhelming unit to begin with.
The trait and relic shown are totally MEH, I have a feeling that TS will remain just a Codex Supreme Command detachment still...
the new strat is OP and will totally feth you in half.
IMAGINE taking 20 rubrics with flamers for the low low cost of 480 pts and deploying them in your opponent's face.
thats TONS OF DAMAGE and has LITTERALLY NO COUNTERS.
Except being seized, or marines deploying their "no deepstrike allowed" units or being a super fragile expensive bomb in your opponents face.....
god i hope the sons get more interesting stuff in the rest of the book.
I mean, no, Rubrics are not going to be deadly deep strike alpha strikers with full units of warpflamers. If you're taking a huge rubric blob, taking just a few warpflamers is a much better idea. Scarab Occults also have that keyword, yes?
The disappointing thing in my eyes is that it's by detachment, and I'm assuming, highly keyword-based. Buffs, strats, relics, etc will only work in-cult. So it's kind of like when other armies get a single bonus strat, relic, and WL trait for their subfaction...except we also don't get to choose our subfaction trait, its always the same, and it's a pretty not awesome one because it could have literally just been built into the rules for the faction.
I'll see what the full leaks are. The stuff they previewed seems good. Just doesn't seem like a huge power boost overall for the faction, nor does it really give me what I was excited for, which was for my dang exalted sorcerors to not all be totally identical.
If any army needed the friggin' "1CP for extra relics no limits" stratagem it's Tsons. Relics and traits is the only way we can differentiate our characters...
A lazy article light on substance. Book could still be great for TS, and I hope there are some powerful stratagems, but the bundle system is a bit of a pain.
Hey, at least it tells us GW is keeping it consistent and even-steven with these army wide no soup bonuses.
If you're space marines, you get army-wide -1AP on various guns and weapons, and some other small bonus rules like ignoring all to-hit modifiers, rerolling 1s with all heavy weapons, causing 1 extra damage to vehicles with all heavy weapons, stuff like that. You know, fun little bonuses so if you take a Land Raider with the faction CSM, and a land raider with the faction Imperial Fists, the IF land raider kills the CSM land raider before it reaches half-HP.
If you're chaos space marines, you get access to YOUR CHOICE of a bonus warlord trait, relic, stratagem and psychic power. Giving you not nearly as many as you'd get if you played a loyalist space marine chapter with a supplement, but hey. Lets not get crazy.
deTox91 wrote: I don't know if it's just me but this TS preview looks very disappointing? specially if compared to GK.
No passive bonus of any kind, so most of the army still doesn't have any trait at all,
Time Flux looks decent, but doesn't really have any good target for, maybe just SoT but they are a very underwhelming unit to begin with.
The trait and relic shown are totally MEH, I have a feeling that TS will remain just a Codex Supreme Command detachment still...
the new strat is OP and will totally feth you in half.
IMAGINE taking 20 rubrics with flamers for the low low cost of 480 pts and deploying them in your opponent's face.
thats TONS OF DAMAGE and has LITTERALLY NO COUNTERS.
Except being seized, or marines deploying their "no deepstrike allowed" units or being a super fragile expensive bomb in your opponents face.....
god i hope the sons get more interesting stuff in the rest of the book.
I mean, no, Rubrics are not going to be deadly deep strike alpha strikers with full units of warpflamers. If you're taking a huge rubric blob, taking just a few warpflamers is a much better idea. Scarab Occults also have that keyword, yes?
The disappointing thing in my eyes is that it's by detachment, and I'm assuming, highly keyword-based. Buffs, strats, relics, etc will only work in-cult. So it's kind of like when other armies get a single bonus strat, relic, and WL trait for their subfaction...except we also don't get to choose our subfaction trait, its always the same, and it's a pretty not awesome one because it could have literally just been built into the rules for the faction.
I'll see what the full leaks are. The stuff they previewed seems good. Just doesn't seem like a huge power boost overall for the faction, nor does it really give me what I was excited for, which was for my dang exalted sorcerors to not all be totally identical.
If any army needed the friggin' "1CP for extra relics no limits" stratagem it's Tsons. Relics and traits is the only way we can differentiate our characters...
i was being sarcastic, the stratagem is "alright" at best. Scarab occults sadly dont have the rubric keyword. Honestly, i wont pass any judgment until i see the whole rules. As it standsm with the cults being detachment-bound, it feels like the codex received the drukhari treatment (lets split the codex in multiple parts for fluff reasons). At least units wont be cult-exclusive (i hope).
deTox91 wrote: I don't know if it's just me but this TS preview looks very disappointing? specially if compared to GK.
No passive bonus of any kind, so most of the army still doesn't have any trait at all,
Time Flux looks decent, but doesn't really have any good target for, maybe just SoT but they are a very underwhelming unit to begin with.
The trait and relic shown are totally MEH, I have a feeling that TS will remain just a Codex Supreme Command detachment still...
the new strat is OP and will totally feth you in half.
IMAGINE taking 20 rubrics with flamers for the low low cost of 480 pts and deploying them in your opponent's face.
thats TONS OF DAMAGE and has LITTERALLY NO COUNTERS.
Except being seized, or marines deploying their "no deepstrike allowed" units or being a super fragile expensive bomb in your opponents face.....
god i hope the sons get more interesting stuff in the rest of the book.
How?
You have to deploy more than 9 inches away and flamers have an 8 inch range. Seems absolutely worthless, I'd rather just have the warp bolters.
deTox91 wrote: I don't know if it's just me but this TS preview looks very disappointing? specially if compared to GK.
No passive bonus of any kind, so most of the army still doesn't have any trait at all,
Time Flux looks decent, but doesn't really have any good target for, maybe just SoT but they are a very underwhelming unit to begin with.
The trait and relic shown are totally MEH, I have a feeling that TS will remain just a Codex Supreme Command detachment still...
the new strat is OP and will totally feth you in half.
IMAGINE taking 20 rubrics with flamers for the low low cost of 480 pts and deploying them in your opponent's face.
thats TONS OF DAMAGE and has LITTERALLY NO COUNTERS.
Except being seized, or marines deploying their "no deepstrike allowed" units or being a super fragile expensive bomb in your opponents face.....
god i hope the sons get more interesting stuff in the rest of the book.
How?
You have to deploy more than 9 inches away and flamers have an 8 inch range. Seems absolutely worthless, I'd rather just have the warp bolters.
I mean imagine doing this with flamers vs Tau?
**Laughs in Tau Pulse Rifle supported by a Cadre*
This isn't regular plays by the rules deep strike, they're getting nu-marine bs deployment phase deep strike. So if they have turn 1 they can just walk up and shoot.
WhiteDog wrote: Morden saying he'll bite while almost every post he make on this forum has some form of whine about DA.... This topic is getting ridiculous.
Oh look a one line post whining about someone posting something - yeah well done Mate- thats constructive and of course yet again completly inaccurate as before someone else was weeping about how super hard done by Dark Angels are (an army I play and collect no less) we were happily discussing Tau, GSC and Deathguard.
But hey - maybe you if you try really hard you will find the ability to post something actually useful, relevant and aboce all accurate......
Actually talking about the topic - so Time Flux works on characters - is it likely that any of the named TS characters will get that Cult keyword.
Tide of Shadows seems very powerful for GK? Anything that gives a -1 tends to be good? Assume it works on vehicles as well?
WhiteDog wrote: Morden saying he'll bite while almost every post he make on this forum has some form of whine about DA.... This topic is getting ridiculous.
Oh look a one line post whining about someone posting something - yeah well done Mate- thats constructive and of course yet again completly inaccurate as before someone else was weeping about how super hard done by Dark Angels are (an army I play and collect no less) we were happily discussing Tau, GSC and Deathguard.
But hey - maybe you if you try really hard you will find the ability to post something actually useful, relevant and aboce all accurate......
Actually talking about the topic - so Time Flux works on characters - is it likely that any of the named TS characters will get that Cult keyword.
Tide of Shadows seems very powerful for GK? Anything that gives a -1 tends to be good? Assume it works on vehicles as well?
If you've figured out a cool trick to make it so that a character loses a model from its unit and then has a model on the battlefield to make it an eligible target for Time Flux, let me in on that.
All my characters are single model units, and so if they die, I can't use Time Flux on them because they're not on the battlefield anymore.
WhiteDog wrote: Morden saying he'll bite while almost every post he make on this forum has some form of whine about DA.... This topic is getting ridiculous.
Oh look a one line post whining about someone posting something - yeah well done Mate- thats constructive and of course yet again completly inaccurate as before someone else was weeping about how super hard done by Dark Angels are (an army I play and collect no less) we were happily discussing Tau, GSC and Deathguard.
But hey - maybe you if you try really hard you will find the ability to post something actually useful, relevant and aboce all accurate......
Actually talking about the topic - so Time Flux works on characters - is it likely that any of the named TS characters will get that Cult keyword.
Tide of Shadows seems very powerful for GK? Anything that gives a -1 tends to be good? Assume it works on vehicles as well?
If you've figured out a cool trick to make it so that a character loses a model from its unit and then has a model on the battlefield to make it an eligible target for Time Flux, let me in on that.
All my characters are single model units, and so if they die, I can't use Time Flux on them because they're not on the battlefield anymore.
WhiteDog wrote: Morden saying he'll bite while almost every post he make on this forum has some form of whine about DA.... This topic is getting ridiculous.
Oh look a one line post whining about someone posting something - yeah well done Mate- thats constructive and of course yet again completly inaccurate as before someone else was weeping about how super hard done by Dark Angels are (an army I play and collect no less) we were happily discussing Tau, GSC and Deathguard.
But hey - maybe you if you try really hard you will find the ability to post something actually useful, relevant and aboce all accurate......
Actually talking about the topic - so Time Flux works on characters - is it likely that any of the named TS characters will get that Cult keyword.
Tide of Shadows seems very powerful for GK? Anything that gives a -1 tends to be good? Assume it works on vehicles as well?
Um... we all just saw this. Let's play nice while we sort it out.
First things first, Detachments are dedicated to Cults. This implies any unit that's part of that detachment is part of that Cult. Maybe there's restrictions for named characters, but it seems like any unit can be part of any Cult.
Second, it says you get access to additional Psychic Powers / WTs / Relics for belonging to a Cult. If this is true, we will be seeing a lot more.
Third, Time Flux won't work on characters. It works on units, all TS characters are single model units. If one dies, it's not a vlid target for a Psychic Power.
I've been playing a Daemon Primarch list that includes Ahriman and 2 Exalted Sorcerers in a Supreme Command Detachment. They're already pretty tough, being able to redeploy them anywhere on the board would be huge. I'd give one the Capricious Crest and shadow Magnus just for the rerolls.
GW saying that Grey Knights might get primaris in the future but that they have no plans to share right now isn't a confirmation that they'll get primaris, it's corporate-speak for keeping their options open while still saying no.
As for the Thousand Sons, well, I guess I'll just have to see what the full cult rules do. The current previews from today seem kinda sparse. Interesting, sure, but it doesn't feel like there's a lot going on, and splitting the content across the 9 cults makes me think that it'll be pretty dilute. We'll be getting "plenty" of rules in aggregate, but you'll really only be able to make use of a fraction of them in reality--much like the CSM bonuses from Faith and Fury, some 85% of which you couldn't use even if you could use the other 15%.
Just from looking at the few rules that they have released, I'm debating between Cult of Time and Cult of Change, since that relic looks pretty sweet and the psychic power doesn't look half bad either. Combine it with Temporal Manipulation and you have both halves of an apothecary. And hey, if you're using it on Terminators you're getting multiple wounds out of the deal. Not that I have any Scarab Occult Terminators in my army/collection.
Benionin wrote: GW saying that Grey Knights might get primaris in the future but that they have no plans to share right now isn't a confirmation that they'll get primaris, it's corporate-speak for keeping their options open while still saying no.
Well, it's more that it's a long, long time away I assume. Like five years.
So the Cults of the Thousand Sons rule doesn't do anything except restrict the availability of the new psychic powers and warlord traits? Fantastic.
I especially like how it effectively limits the availability of the new psychic powers to 1 cast per turn per detachment. Nice of them to do that - wouldn't want Thousand Sons being able to cast too many powers.
But something's still missing. I don't think we've seen anything that randomly blows up your own guys yet. 7 powers left to reveal though...
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: So the Cults of the Thousand Sons rule doesn't do anything except restrict the availability of the new psychic powers and warlord traits? Fantastic.
I especially like how it effectively limits the availability of the new psychic powers to 1 cast per turn per detachment. Nice of them to do that - wouldn't want Thousand Sons being able to cast too many powers.
But something's still missing. I don't think we've seen anything that randomly blows up your own guys yet. 7 powers left to reveal though...
It doesn't restrict access to the existing powers, just powers associated to the other cults.
Were you mad when Fists couldn't use the Ravenguards psychic powers too?
So with Sorcerous Facade you can slingshot a second unit of Brayhorn Tzaangors into the enemy's face turn 1, after you've DMC'd the first one. Not too shabby.
Perfidious Tome looks deceptively good. Most people kill CP generation relics on sight if they can, but the chance for your opponent to gain CP could be just enough bait to let something live. Unless I am mistaken, competitive chaos lists are already taking a supreme command detachment of thousand sons so this ends up just slotting right in with minimal opportunity cost.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: So the Cults of the Thousand Sons rule doesn't do anything except restrict the availability of the new psychic powers and warlord traits? Fantastic.
I especially like how it effectively limits the availability of the new psychic powers to 1 cast per turn per detachment. Nice of them to do that - wouldn't want Thousand Sons being able to cast too many powers.
But something's still missing. I don't think we've seen anything that randomly blows up your own guys yet. 7 powers left to reveal though...
It doesn't restrict access to the existing powers, just powers associated to the other cults.
Were you mad when Fists couldn't use the Ravenguards psychic powers too?
Except that's not even remotely the same thing?
Fists and RG are a Chapter the same as TS, not as a cult, both IF and RG got a 9~ or however many spells each, not 1 per Detachment
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: So the Cults of the Thousand Sons rule doesn't do anything except restrict the availability of the new psychic powers and warlord traits? Fantastic.
I especially like how it effectively limits the availability of the new psychic powers to 1 cast per turn per detachment. Nice of them to do that - wouldn't want Thousand Sons being able to cast too many powers.
But something's still missing. I don't think we've seen anything that randomly blows up your own guys yet. 7 powers left to reveal though...
It doesn't restrict access to the existing powers, just powers associated to the other cults.
Were you mad when Fists couldn't use the Ravenguards psychic powers too?
Except that's not even remotely the same thing?
Fists and RG are a Chapter the same as TS, not as a cult, both IF and RG got a 9~ or however many spells each, not 1 per Detachment
So in this cool new release that lets you build new things using subfactions of a subfaction you're saying it's bad that the subfaction's subfaction didn't individually get as many rules as other subfactions?
Because basically you're arguing that by not giving the cults the same level of content as the SM Chapters GW is doing you a disservice. That doesn't track as reasonable imo.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: So the Cults of the Thousand Sons rule doesn't do anything except restrict the availability of the new psychic powers and warlord traits? Fantastic.
I especially like how it effectively limits the availability of the new psychic powers to 1 cast per turn per detachment. Nice of them to do that - wouldn't want Thousand Sons being able to cast too many powers.
But something's still missing. I don't think we've seen anything that randomly blows up your own guys yet. 7 powers left to reveal though...
It doesn't restrict access to the existing powers, just powers associated to the other cults.
Were you mad when Fists couldn't use the Ravenguards psychic powers too?
Except that's not even remotely the same thing?
Fists and RG are a Chapter the same as TS, not as a cult, both IF and RG got a 9~ or however many spells each, not 1 per Detachment
So in this cool new release that lets you build new things using subfactions of a subfaction you're saying it's bad that the subfaction's subfaction didn't individually get as many rules as other subfactions?
Because basically you're arguing that by not giving the cults the same level of content as the SM Chapters GW is doing you a disservice. That doesn't track as reasonable imo.
Imperium - Space Marines - Ravegaurd vs
Chaos - Chaos Space Marines - Thousand Sons
Yep - if GW gave indivdual Companies special stuff you would have a point
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: So the Cults of the Thousand Sons rule doesn't do anything except restrict the availability of the new psychic powers and warlord traits? Fantastic.
I especially like how it effectively limits the availability of the new psychic powers to 1 cast per turn per detachment. Nice of them to do that - wouldn't want Thousand Sons being able to cast too many powers.
But something's still missing. I don't think we've seen anything that randomly blows up your own guys yet. 7 powers left to reveal though...
It doesn't restrict access to the existing powers, just powers associated to the other cults.
Were you mad when Fists couldn't use the Ravenguards psychic powers too?
Except that's not even remotely the same thing?
Fists and RG are a Chapter the same as TS, not as a cult, both IF and RG got a 9~ or however many spells each, not 1 per Detachment
So in this cool new release that lets you build new things using subfactions of a subfaction you're saying it's bad that the subfaction's subfaction didn't individually get as many rules as other subfactions?
Because basically you're arguing that by not giving the cults the same level of content as the SM Chapters GW is doing you a disservice. That doesn't track as reasonable imo.
I'm not comparing cults to chapters, I'm comparing chapter to chapter, pretty simple.
While everybody has access to 9x of something, TS in any given game have access to 1x of the pool of new rules because of the cults limitation, I'd be happy to remove the cults and get access to all the spells and stats as anybody else Ofc any new rule is welcome, but it's also pretty natural to compare what individual factions get, and atm what TS got (from what was seen) is OK but not exciting, and pretty limitating in what can be used because of the cult limitation
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: So the Cults of the Thousand Sons rule doesn't do anything except restrict the availability of the new psychic powers and warlord traits? Fantastic.
I especially like how it effectively limits the availability of the new psychic powers to 1 cast per turn per detachment. Nice of them to do that - wouldn't want Thousand Sons being able to cast too many powers.
But something's still missing. I don't think we've seen anything that randomly blows up your own guys yet. 7 powers left to reveal though...
It doesn't restrict access to the existing powers, just powers associated to the other cults.
Were you mad when Fists couldn't use the Ravenguards psychic powers too?
Except that's not even remotely the same thing?
Fists and RG are a Chapter the same as TS, not as a cult, both IF and RG got a 9~ or however many spells each, not 1 per Detachment
So in this cool new release that lets you build new things using subfactions of a subfaction you're saying it's bad that the subfaction's subfaction didn't individually get as many rules as other subfactions?
Because basically you're arguing that by not giving the cults the same level of content as the SM Chapters GW is doing you a disservice. That doesn't track as reasonable imo.
Except TS are not treated as a CSM subfaction, and are locked out of the vast majority of csm options.
The cult is silly when all it does is give you one OPTION for a spell, a warlord trait and a relic. It effects up to 3 models, assuming you even want to take them all and not just the basic ones.
Given that the duplicity spell is yet another of having the same spell as someone else, except worse so it cancels out our army trait is adding insult to injury.
The cults COULD have been meaningful, but instead they are a further tax, giving you a choice of 1 out of 9, where everyone else just gets 6.
Tyranids got the same, CWE too, Drukhari and harleys got less.
CSM got more than one trait and one relic per legion, but they didn't get the more than a dozen or so stratagems (per legion) that will be given to TS, nor did they get any powers.
Imperium - Space Marines - Ravegaurd vs
Chaos - Chaos Space Marines - Thousand Sons
Yep - if GW gave indivdual Companies special stuff you would have a point
Except 1) It's Chaos-CSM-Thousand Sons-Cults and 2) You're making my point for me, this is the equivalent of company-level support for Chapters, hence my confusion at people being salty about it.
While everybody has access to 9x of something, TS in any given game have access to 1x of the pool of new rules because of the cults limitation, I'd be happy to remove the cults and get access to all the spells and stats as anybody else
Except they also have access to the base powers, traits, and relics they already got. So they're getting additional options on top of what already existed. And like you said if you're comparing them chapter to chapter, this means that TS has 9 permutations on their existing rules, which is more than could be said for RG or DA or whatever you fancy. I don't get how you see being able to stack new powers and strats on top of what you already have as limiting. Wanting access to all 9 sets seems unrealistic imo .
The cult is silly when all it does is give you one OPTION for a spell, a warlord trait and a relic. It effects up to 3 models, assuming you even want to take them all and not just the basic ones.
Given that the duplicity spell is yet another of having the same spell as someone else, except worse so it cancels out our army trait is adding insult to injury.
The cults COULD have been meaningful, but instead they are a further tax, giving you a choice of 1 out of 9, where everyone else just gets 6.
1) Show me where in the preview they said there was only one power, trait, and strat per cult.
2) Someone else having a better version of a rule does not make that rule inherently bad
3) How is this a tax? You get to stack new powers and rules! What is this magic 6 you're talking about? The psychic disciplines others get? The ones TS already had? So you'd only be satisfied if this release entailed 54 new powers?
One extra spell, relic WL-trait and Strat is literally what came with the <Khorne>, <Slaanesh>, etc... keyword in the original CSM dex before Vigilus started charging a pre-game CP for these type of “more-access-keywords”.
My issue is that in PA everybody gets new traits/relics/stratagems. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems DA and GK get new special rules giving them army wide bonuses. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: My issue is that in PA everybody gets new traits/relics/stratagems. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems DA and GK get new special rules giving them army wide bonuses. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Again I'm confused as to how this mechanic is restricting. Are you saying they should have access to all the cult's stuff? Be just like the other factions and have a flat new powers and strats handout?
What specifically about this makes it restricting and inferior to other rulesets?
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Previously, your army(like Death Guard) did not have subfactions. You have them now.
Why you got them, who knows. Probably the fact that one of the most popular questions is about "what happened to the Cults after the Heresy!".
Probably the fact that one of the most popular questions is about "what happened to the Cults after the Heresy!".
Yeah, that question is going to linger, because given the list of cults was Corvidae, Pavoni, Pyrae, Athanaeans, Raptora (plus the things that aren't really cults- Jackal, Scarab, Ruin and Blindness)
yet the list of cults in this book is this:
Those are the Cults of Prophecy, Time, Mutation, Scheming, Magic, Knowledge, Change, Duplicity and Manipulation.
Presumably the Pavoni are now just called the mutation cult, and the Corvidae are now just 'Prophecy...'
but notably the Pyrae (Fire), Athanaean (Telepathy), Raptora (TK shields), and the Order of Ruin (world ending, represented by the character Ignis in Ahriman's trilogy), etc. aren't part of this list.
So mostly these seem to not be the cults people were asking about.
------
As far as the complaints about the cults go, it seems pretty obvious. In the HH books, these cults fought together on the same battlefield, bearing their particular abilities to bear-- a unit of Raptora would hold the line with shields while a squad of Pyrae moved up and burned things and a Corvidae scouted ahead. The structure presented suggests you can't do that with these new cults. Hence... dissatisfaction.
This is a real shame for TSons. Having to pick a cult for each detachment is a limitation. Having to pay 3cp to access additional relics is a limitation. Not having access to additional warlord traits at 1cp each is a limitation.
If characters or units could be given a subfaction each these new options could open doors for some fantastic play.
TSons are a cognitive exercise of an army, decent TSons players will make use of these new additions. However it is a real shame that limitations have been placed on other factions who are not marines.
If these new rules had more flexibility TSons would be able to play a hard counter to marines, but they would need the higher mental applitude that psy heavy armies require over the current castle/run and gun that current marine armies have.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: My issue is that in PA everybody gets new traits/relics/stratagems. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems DA and GK get new special rules giving them army wide bonuses. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Again I'm confused as to how this mechanic is restricting. Are you saying they should have access to all the cult's stuff? Be just like the other factions and have a flat new powers and strats handout?
What specifically about this makes it restricting and inferior to other rulesets?
Suppose you want one of the new relics. Suppose you want one of the new warlord traits. Suppose they're not from the same Cult. Not only can't you take them both on the same character you can't even take them both in the same detachment. And the effects look to be largely locked by Cult keyword too. Did all the other armies get these kinds of restrictions on their new PA content?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: My issue is that in PA everybody gets new traits/relics/stratagems. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems DA and GK get new special rules giving them army wide bonuses. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Again I'm confused as to how this mechanic is restricting. Are you saying they should have access to all the cult's stuff? Be just like the other factions and have a flat new powers and strats handout?
What specifically about this makes it restricting and inferior to other rulesets?
Suppose you want one of the new relics. Suppose you want one of the new warlord traits. Suppose they're not from the same Cult. Not only can't you take them both on the same character you can't even take them both in the same detachment. And the effects look to be largely locked by Cult keyword too. Did all the other armies get these kinds of restrictions on their new PA content?
Sisters have that with Orders. Space Marines have that with Chapters. Did you think those were restrictions too? And to be honest that might not even be a good comparison, we still don't know if they're getting a doctrines/rites equivalent on top of Cults.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
T'omb wrote: This is a real shame for TSons. Having to pick a cult for each detachment is a limitation. Having to pay 3cp to access additional relics is a limitation. Not having access to additional warlord traits at 1cp each is a limitation.
If characters or units could be given a subfaction each these new options could open doors for some fantastic play.
TSons are a cognitive exercise of an army, decent TSons players will make use of these new additions. However it is a real shame that limitations have been placed on other factions who are not marines.
If these new rules had more flexibility TSons would be able to play a hard counter to marines, but they would need the higher mental applitude that psy heavy armies require over the current castle/run and gun that current marine armies have.
Where are you getting these CP costs? The article makes no mention of it.
It is based on the assumption that Thousand Sons will not see an update to their basic "additional relics" stratagem, or that they will not get a 1Cp stratagem for additional warlord traits alongside the cults.
Which I find...unlikely. I think we will get both, in line with the space marine codex 2.0 and various supplements.
What I do not find that is satisfactory. The ability to purchase benefits for a single model for command points /= massive enormous army-wide buffs that imperial armies have been getting for staying un-souped.
Chaos is the MOST FREQUENTLY souped faction. People have literally been taking just the HQs and none of the troops from Tsons and stapling them on to the troops from freakin' nurgle daemons for ages now. If GW is really going to be attacking the soup problem with Carrots rather than Sticks, chaos armies should be getting the largest carrots of anyone for staying monofaction. Instead, it just seems like Tsons are getting the same thing everyone else has gotten out of PA....but divided by 9 for some reason, AND limited to monofaction lists? That's just super lazy, especially in the same book where they've handed GK and DA exactly what they needed to be competitive outside of soup lists.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: My issue is that in PA everybody gets new traits/relics/stratagems. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems DA and GK get new special rules giving them army wide bonuses. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Again I'm confused as to how this mechanic is restricting. Are you saying they should have access to all the cult's stuff? Be just like the other factions and have a flat new powers and strats handout?
What specifically about this makes it restricting and inferior to other rulesets?
Suppose you want one of the new relics. Suppose you want one of the new warlord traits. Suppose they're not from the same Cult. Not only can't you take them both on the same character you can't even take them both in the same detachment. And the effects look to be largely locked by Cult keyword too. Did all the other armies get these kinds of restrictions on their new PA content?
Sisters have that with Orders. Space Marines have that with Chapters. Did you think those were restrictions too? And to be honest that might not even be a good comparison, we still don't know if they're getting a doctrines/rites equivalent on top of Cults.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
T'omb wrote: This is a real shame for TSons. Having to pick a cult for each detachment is a limitation. Having to pay 3cp to access additional relics is a limitation. Not having access to additional warlord traits at 1cp each is a limitation.
If characters or units could be given a subfaction each these new options could open doors for some fantastic play.
TSons are a cognitive exercise of an army, decent TSons players will make use of these new additions. However it is a real shame that limitations have been placed on other factions who are not marines.
If these new rules had more flexibility TSons would be able to play a hard counter to marines, but they would need the higher mental applitude that psy heavy armies require over the current castle/run and gun that current marine armies have.
Where are you getting these CP costs? The article makes no mention of it.
You're being extremely disingenuous here. You bloody well know that comparing a 1KSons cult to a Chapter, Order or Craftworld is not right. What this seems to be giving is the equivelant of the Specialist Detachments in Vigilus, only without having to pay the CP to get the keyword (at least I hope they don't have to pay the CP to get the keyword), which means that in any given game a 1KSons army will only ever have acces to 3 of the 9 sets of abilities and because they come in sets there's no picking and choosing. Would have worked much better if it had been like the strats Space Marines got in PA2 where you can make a Librarian, Chaplain, Techmarine, etc... into a better version.
As for those CP costs, you do know they have a codex with generic stratagems for extra relics (but not Warlord Traits) already, right?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: My issue is that in PA everybody gets new traits/relics/stratagems. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems DA and GK get new special rules giving them army wide bonuses. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Again I'm confused as to how this mechanic is restricting. Are you saying they should have access to all the cult's stuff? Be just like the other factions and have a flat new powers and strats handout?
What specifically about this makes it restricting and inferior to other rulesets?
Suppose you want one of the new relics. Suppose you want one of the new warlord traits. Suppose they're not from the same Cult. Not only can't you take them both on the same character you can't even take them both in the same detachment. And the effects look to be largely locked by Cult keyword too. Did all the other armies get these kinds of restrictions on their new PA content?
Sisters have that with Orders. Space Marines have that with Chapters. Did you think those were restrictions too? And to be honest that might not even be a good comparison, we still don't know if they're getting a doctrines/rites equivalent on top of Cults.
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
T'omb wrote: This is a real shame for TSons. Having to pick a cult for each detachment is a limitation. Having to pay 3cp to access additional relics is a limitation. Not having access to additional warlord traits at 1cp each is a limitation.
If characters or units could be given a subfaction each these new options could open doors for some fantastic play.
TSons are a cognitive exercise of an army, decent TSons players will make use of these new additions. However it is a real shame that limitations have been placed on other factions who are not marines.
If these new rules had more flexibility TSons would be able to play a hard counter to marines, but they would need the higher mental applitude that psy heavy armies require over the current castle/run and gun that current marine armies have.
Where are you getting these CP costs? The article makes no mention of it.
Dark angels, a subfaction of space marines, (going by current rumours) and GKs, a subfaction of space marines, both get:
- Rules that affect all units, all the time (unless you choose otherwise).
- All of their stratagems can be used in the same game (if you bring their relevant units.
- Their relics and warlord traits can be mixed and matched as you see fit.
TS, a subfaction of CSM, get:
- A "psychic discipline" that's 9 powers but also only 1 per detachement.
- No interchangeability at all between the cult specific relics, warlord traits, and (possibly) stratagems; which are also dictated by your choice in the previously mentioned "discipline" or vice versa.
By choosing 1 WT, psychic power, or relic. You automatically lock out 90% of all the cult rules we get with NO interchangeability whatsoever. Tell me, what book has that kind of restrictions?
I wonder what all the people crapping on the GK preview think of the book now? DA & TS got the short end of the stick, but to be fair they (GKs) were in the worst spot to begin with.
MiguelFelstone wrote: I wonder what all the people crapping on the GK preview think of the book now? DA & TS got the short end of the stick, but to be fair they (GKs) were in the worst spot to begin with.
Dark angels have some amazing things lined up if rumours are true.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: My issue is that in PA everybody gets new traits/relics/stratagems. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems DA and GK get new special rules giving them army wide bonuses. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Again I'm confused as to how this mechanic is restricting. Are you saying they should have access to all the cult's stuff? Be just like the other factions and have a flat new powers and strats handout?
What specifically about this makes it restricting and inferior to other rulesets?
Suppose you want one of the new relics. Suppose you want one of the new warlord traits. Suppose they're not from the same Cult. Not only can't you take them both on the same character you can't even take them both in the same detachment. And the effects look to be largely locked by Cult keyword too. Did all the other armies get these kinds of restrictions on their new PA content?
Sisters have that with Orders. Space Marines have that with Chapters. Did you think those were restrictions too? And to be honest that might not even be a good comparison, we still don't know if they're getting a doctrines/rites equivalent on top of Cults.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
T'omb wrote: This is a real shame for TSons. Having to pick a cult for each detachment is a limitation. Having to pay 3cp to access additional relics is a limitation. Not having access to additional warlord traits at 1cp each is a limitation.
If characters or units could be given a subfaction each these new options could open doors for some fantastic play.
TSons are a cognitive exercise of an army, decent TSons players will make use of these new additions. However it is a real shame that limitations have been placed on other factions who are not marines.
If these new rules had more flexibility TSons would be able to play a hard counter to marines, but they would need the higher mental applitude that psy heavy armies require over the current castle/run and gun that current marine armies have.
Where are you getting these CP costs? The article makes no mention of it.
You're being extremely disingenuous here. You bloody well know that comparing a 1KSons cult to a Chapter, Order or Craftworld is not right. What this seems to be giving is the equivelant of the Specialist Detachments in Vigilus, only without having to pay the CP to get the keyword (at least I hope they don't have to pay the CP to get the keyword), which means that in any given game a 1KSons army will only ever have acces to 3 of the 9 sets of abilities and because they come in sets there's no picking and choosing. Would have worked much better if it had been like the strats Space Marines got in PA2 where you can make a Librarian, Chaplain, Techmarine, etc... into a better version.
As for those CP costs, you do know they have a codex with generic stratagems for extra relics (but not Warlord Traits) already, right?
Those limitations already existed, I'm not sure how this release makes them better or worse. Yet the dude's citing them as if they're new and problematic. That's what I'm not getting.
Not sure how I'm being disingenuous. Having their own codex doesn't make them more snow-flakey than any chapter or order or craftworld. Heck half this forum thinks armies like DA and SW shouldn't even get their own books, so I'm not sure why an army who only had two unique units to their name only 3-4 years ago suddenly should get the SM treatment and have it's own internal subfactions broken out into full chapter-equivalent rulesets.
I'm not saying they don't deserve it, I wish every army had as much customization options as SM. I just don't understand why that was the expectation.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: My issue is that in PA everybody gets new traits/relics/stratagems. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems DA and GK get new special rules giving them army wide bonuses. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Again I'm confused as to how this mechanic is restricting. Are you saying they should have access to all the cult's stuff? Be just like the other factions and have a flat new powers and strats handout?
What specifically about this makes it restricting and inferior to other rulesets?
Suppose you want one of the new relics. Suppose you want one of the new warlord traits. Suppose they're not from the same Cult. Not only can't you take them both on the same character you can't even take them both in the same detachment. And the effects look to be largely locked by Cult keyword too. Did all the other armies get these kinds of restrictions on their new PA content?
Sisters have that with Orders. Space Marines have that with Chapters. Did you think those were restrictions too? And to be honest that might not even be a good comparison, we still don't know if they're getting a doctrines/rites equivalent on top of Cults.
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
T'omb wrote: This is a real shame for TSons. Having to pick a cult for each detachment is a limitation. Having to pay 3cp to access additional relics is a limitation. Not having access to additional warlord traits at 1cp each is a limitation.
If characters or units could be given a subfaction each these new options could open doors for some fantastic play.
TSons are a cognitive exercise of an army, decent TSons players will make use of these new additions. However it is a real shame that limitations have been placed on other factions who are not marines.
If these new rules had more flexibility TSons would be able to play a hard counter to marines, but they would need the higher mental applitude that psy heavy armies require over the current castle/run and gun that current marine armies have.
Where are you getting these CP costs? The article makes no mention of it.
Dark angels, a subfaction of space marines, (going by current rumours) and GKs, a subfaction of space marines, both get:
- Rules that affect all units, all the time (unless you choose otherwise).
- All of their stratagems can be used in the same game (if you bring their relevant units.
- Their relics and warlord traits can be mixed and matched as you see fit.
TS, a subfaction of CSM, get:
- A "psychic discipline" that's 9 powers but also only 1 per detachement.
- No interchangeability at all between the cult specific relics, warlord traits, and (possibly) stratagems; which are also dictated by your choice in the previously mentioned "discipline" or vice versa.
By choosing 1 WT, psychic power, or relic. You automatically lock out 90% of all the cult rules we get with NO interchangeability whatsoever. Tell me, what book has that kind of restrictions?
Theeee same books that don't let my Dark Angels use Ravenguard psychic powers? TS get their baseline 6 (or however many) powers plus another of 9 the player gets to choose from. How is that bad or unfair? To me it sounds like whinging about not being able to make cross-cult wombo combos.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: My issue is that in PA everybody gets new traits/relics/stratagems. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems DA and GK get new special rules giving them army wide bonuses. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Again I'm confused as to how this mechanic is restricting. Are you saying they should have access to all the cult's stuff? Be just like the other factions and have a flat new powers and strats handout?
What specifically about this makes it restricting and inferior to other rulesets?
Suppose you want one of the new relics. Suppose you want one of the new warlord traits. Suppose they're not from the same Cult. Not only can't you take them both on the same character you can't even take them both in the same detachment. And the effects look to be largely locked by Cult keyword too. Did all the other armies get these kinds of restrictions on their new PA content?
Sisters have that with Orders. Space Marines have that with Chapters. Did you think those were restrictions too? And to be honest that might not even be a good comparison, we still don't know if they're getting a doctrines/rites equivalent on top of Cults.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
T'omb wrote: This is a real shame for TSons. Having to pick a cult for each detachment is a limitation. Having to pay 3cp to access additional relics is a limitation. Not having access to additional warlord traits at 1cp each is a limitation.
If characters or units could be given a subfaction each these new options could open doors for some fantastic play.
TSons are a cognitive exercise of an army, decent TSons players will make use of these new additions. However it is a real shame that limitations have been placed on other factions who are not marines.
If these new rules had more flexibility TSons would be able to play a hard counter to marines, but they would need the higher mental applitude that psy heavy armies require over the current castle/run and gun that current marine armies have.
Where are you getting these CP costs? The article makes no mention of it.
You're being extremely disingenuous here. You bloody well know that comparing a 1KSons cult to a Chapter, Order or Craftworld is not right. What this seems to be giving is the equivelant of the Specialist Detachments in Vigilus, only without having to pay the CP to get the keyword (at least I hope they don't have to pay the CP to get the keyword), which means that in any given game a 1KSons army will only ever have acces to 3 of the 9 sets of abilities and because they come in sets there's no picking and choosing. Would have worked much better if it had been like the strats Space Marines got in PA2 where you can make a Librarian, Chaplain, Techmarine, etc... into a better version.
As for those CP costs, you do know they have a codex with generic stratagems for extra relics (but not Warlord Traits) already, right?
Those limitations already existed, I'm not sure how this release makes them better or worse. Yet the dude's citing them as if they're new and problematic. That's what I'm not getting.
Not sure how I'm being disingenuous. Having their own codex doesn't make them more snow-flakey than any chapter or order or craftworld. Heck half this forum thinks armies like DA and SW shouldn't even get their own books, so I'm not sure why an army who only had two unique units to their name only 3-4 years ago suddenly should get the SM treatment and have it's own internal subfactions broken out into full chapter-equivalent rulesets.
I'm not saying they don't deserve it, I wish every army had as much customization options as SM. I just don't understand why that was the expectation.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: My issue is that in PA everybody gets new traits/relics/stratagems. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems DA and GK get new special rules giving them army wide bonuses. Ok fine.
In addition to their new traits/relics/stratagems, TS get new special rules that do nothing except make harder for them to use their new traits/relics/stratagems. Why?
Only loyalist marines get army wide mono-faction bonuses as a reward for making GW so much money. Ok I understand that. But why go through the trouble of adding this new mechanic to TS that does nothing but punish and restrict? Were TS going to be too powerful otherwise? Couldn't they have better used that space for an expanded name generator or something?
Again I'm confused as to how this mechanic is restricting. Are you saying they should have access to all the cult's stuff? Be just like the other factions and have a flat new powers and strats handout?
What specifically about this makes it restricting and inferior to other rulesets?
Suppose you want one of the new relics. Suppose you want one of the new warlord traits. Suppose they're not from the same Cult. Not only can't you take them both on the same character you can't even take them both in the same detachment. And the effects look to be largely locked by Cult keyword too. Did all the other armies get these kinds of restrictions on their new PA content?
Sisters have that with Orders. Space Marines have that with Chapters. Did you think those were restrictions too? And to be honest that might not even be a good comparison, we still don't know if they're getting a doctrines/rites equivalent on top of Cults.
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T'omb wrote: This is a real shame for TSons. Having to pick a cult for each detachment is a limitation. Having to pay 3cp to access additional relics is a limitation. Not having access to additional warlord traits at 1cp each is a limitation.
If characters or units could be given a subfaction each these new options could open doors for some fantastic play.
TSons are a cognitive exercise of an army, decent TSons players will make use of these new additions. However it is a real shame that limitations have been placed on other factions who are not marines.
If these new rules had more flexibility TSons would be able to play a hard counter to marines, but they would need the higher mental applitude that psy heavy armies require over the current castle/run and gun that current marine armies have.
Where are you getting these CP costs? The article makes no mention of it.
Dark angels, a subfaction of space marines, (going by current rumours) and GKs, a subfaction of space marines, both get:
- Rules that affect all units, all the time (unless you choose otherwise).
- All of their stratagems can be used in the same game (if you bring their relevant units.
- Their relics and warlord traits can be mixed and matched as you see fit.
TS, a subfaction of CSM, get:
- A "psychic discipline" that's 9 powers but also only 1 per detachement.
- No interchangeability at all between the cult specific relics, warlord traits, and (possibly) stratagems; which are also dictated by your choice in the previously mentioned "discipline" or vice versa.
By choosing 1 WT, psychic power, or relic. You automatically lock out 90% of all the cult rules we get with NO interchangeability whatsoever. Tell me, what book has that kind of restrictions?
Theeee same books that don't let my Dark Angels use Ravenguard psychic powers? TS get their baseline 6 (or however many) powers plus another of 9 the player gets to choose from. How is that bad or unfair? To me it sounds like whinging about not being able to make cross-cult wombo combos.[/spoiler]
Look at it this way, grey knights are the perfect analogue to thousand sons, both self contained books with no sub forces.
Grey knights get a new army wide rule they can move through alongside a swathe of new psychic powers and relics they can access as they please.
Thousand sons get 1 warlord trait, 1 relic and 1 power out of 9 sets. They are locked out of the other 8 in each detachment.
MiguelFelstone wrote: I wonder what all the people crapping on the GK preview think of the book now? DA & TS got the short end of the stick, but to be fair they (GKs) were in the worst spot to begin with.
Dark angels have some amazing things lined up if rumours are true.
Most of them are Deathwing and Ravenguard related, and i don't see either them of them that great. Don't get me wrong, i welcome the DW changes but don't think it's enough to make them competitive (maybe Knights+Talon?). To be honest however i havne't played DA since third so i've probably missed a few things.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: Theeee same books that don't let my Dark Angels use Ravenguard psychic powers? TS get their baseline 6 (or however many) powers plus another of 9 the player gets to choose from. How is that bad or unfair? To me it sounds like whinging about not being able to make cross-cult wombo combos.
You realize that Dark Angels, like Thousand Sons, are a standalone codex right? What you describe is equivalent to Thousand Sons not getting access to Night Lords psychic powers, which of course don't exist because Night Lords are Chaos Space Marines. What's happening is more equivalent to Dark Angels losing their Doctrine benefits in exchange for a rule forcing them to choose a company for each detachment and then locking each of their new relics and warlord traits to a specific company.
Things I'm still curious about:
1. Is Ahriman locked to a specific Cult? (guessing no) Does choosing a Cult prevent you from taking Magnus or Ahriman? (guessing yes)
2. Does the Cult specific power replace Smite as rumored? (guessing yes) If so, do all the psykers of a given Cult have to replace Smite with the Cult specific power? (guessing also yes) And if so, can the Cult specific power be cast multiple times a turn? (guessing no)
Dudeface wrote: Grey knights get a new army wide rule they can move through alongside a swathe of new psychic powers and relics they can access as they please.
Thousand sons get 1 warlord trait, 1 relic and 1 power out of 9 sets. They are locked out of the other 8 in each detachment.
At least whats been previewed GKs got the most buffs, but honestly out of the three who needed it more? I said be honest.
Time Flux looks decent, but doesn't really have any good target for, maybe just SoT but they are a very underwhelming unit to begin with
Dunno. With the chance to bring back full wounds taking 10 of them for ~340 points is quite a lot of AP2 and with that spell - decent durability. And they bring their own sorcerer and its a 5 to cast...
AND you can take a second detachment with that relic to try to guarantee you a 9.
Dudeface wrote: Grey knights get a new army wide rule they can move through alongside a swathe of new psychic powers and relics they can access as they please.
Thousand sons get 1 warlord trait, 1 relic and 1 power out of 9 sets. They are locked out of the other 8 in each detachment.
At least whats been previewed GKs got the most buffs, but honestly out of the three who needed it more? I said be honest.
It's not the number/scale of buffs but the limitations of options.
Time Flux looks decent, but doesn't really have any good target for, maybe just SoT but they are a very underwhelming unit to begin with
Dunno. With the chance to bring back full wounds taking 10 of them for ~340 points is quite a lot of AP2 and with that spell - decent durability. And they bring their own sorcerer and its a 5 to cast...
AND you can take a second detachment with that relic to try to guarantee you a 9.
I’m actually in doubt if the relic works with that as it states “unmodified 9+”, just as I’m not sure how this relic works with changing opponents dice and rerolls, let’s say you have a caster at 1w, you manifest a power with a roll of 6 and 1 and I change your 1 to a 6 so you peril and die...can you then reroll the natural 6 so you’d not peril? Also can you reroll the 1 if I changed your result of 6 into 1? I have a feeling this relic will require a faq
If GW ever got round to making a 40K movie, it would just be some chaos followers sitting in the corner of a dimly lit bar, drinking and complaining.
Currently, it still looks like this is the most interesting of the PA books so far. Will be great to see DA and GK elevated in competitiveness. Tsons don't look as strong, but since GW sees chaos as a soup list for now, they aren't going to give them significant buffs. I would like to see chaos get mono chapter bonuses, but that is not the way GW sees it currently, not sure why.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Seems like TSons players are more unhappy now than if they got nothing at all...?
Imho yes, mind you that’s just me, getting nothing means that at some point in the future you’ll get something and it might be good, getting something mediocre (might not be as bad, opinion based on what was seen) means that you indeed got something and given the very slow release cycle also means you won’t see anything else for 1+ years.
Add to that that this is the “Psychic Awakening” and as an one trick pony psychic phase army you’d think that’s your time to shine, and the fact that sadly everything ends up being benchmarked against space marines (since the amazing cool rules they keep on getting) and there you go you have a whole lot of underwhelmed TS players
Theeee same books that don't let my Dark Angels use Ravenguard psychic powers? TS get their baseline 6 (or however many) powers plus another of 9 the player gets to choose from. How is that bad or unfair? To me it sounds like whinging about not being able to make cross-cult wombo combos.
Your comparison makes zero point zero sense. You are either being deliberately disingenuous or just plain don't understand the conversation being held here.
No one is saying Thousand sons need access to psychic powers of other armies but how about their own?
You know what would be an actual comparisson? Dark angels being able to use either Deathwing rules (stratagems, doctrine, ...) or ravenwing rules, but not both within one given game. Hopefully that sounds ridiculous to you because it does to me!
NinthMusketeer wrote: Seems like TSons players are more unhappy now than if they got nothing at all...?
Well, not entirely. New rules mean new lists means refreshing games. And we're not even sure what we're getting apart from what's been previewed.
That being said; if I see other armies getting ultra-fancy powers that are both very useful (One of the GKs tides is as useful if not more so than all is dust) while my army gets niche gak that doesn't even affect all units, then you bet I'm going to be miffed.
Dudeface wrote: Grey knights get a new army wide rule they can move through alongside a swathe of new psychic powers and relics they can access as they please.
Thousand sons get 1 warlord trait, 1 relic and 1 power out of 9 sets. They are locked out of the other 8 in each detachment.
At least whats been previewed GKs got the most buffs, but honestly out of the three who needed it more? I said be honest.
It's not the number/scale of buffs but the limitations of options.
I was speaking in generalities. I agree.
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NinthMusketeer wrote: Seems like TSons players are more unhappy now than if they got nothing at all...?
I think they were excited about the early leaks/info, and the realization it doesn't change much for them can be quite disappointing.
Dudeface wrote: Grey knights get a new army wide rule they can move through alongside a swathe of new psychic powers and relics they can access as they please.
Thousand sons get 1 warlord trait, 1 relic and 1 power out of 9 sets. They are locked out of the other 8 in each detachment.
At least whats been previewed GKs got the most buffs, but honestly out of the three who needed it more? I said be honest.
It's not the number/scale of buffs but the limitations of options.
I was speaking in generalities. I agree.
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NinthMusketeer wrote: Seems like TSons players are more unhappy now than if they got nothing at all...?
I think they were excited about the early leaks/info, and the realization it doesn't change much for them can be quite disappointing.
Some of this new stuff looks nice and will fill some holes, but the largest problem TS have is that they have no traits to improve their stats, at a time when loyalists basically have 4 (2 part chapter trait, doctrines, super doctrine bonus.) People were hoping we'd get some, or get powers/strats that were strong enough to compensate for the lack of them. But we're not getting that.
Some of this new stuff looks nice and will fill some holes, but the largest problem TS have is that they have no traits to improve their stats, at a time when loyalists basically have 4 (2 part chapter trait, doctrines, super doctrine bonus.) People were hoping we'd get some, or get powers/strats that were strong enough to compensate for the lack of them. But we're not getting that.
Considering a strat, relic, wl trait, and spell per cult we have seen 4 out of 36 things.
Some of this new stuff looks nice and will fill some holes, but the largest problem TS have is that they have no traits to improve their stats, at a time when loyalists basically have 4 (2 part chapter trait, doctrines, super doctrine bonus.) People were hoping we'd get some, or get powers/strats that were strong enough to compensate for the lack of them. But we're not getting that.
Considering a strat, relic, wl trait, and spell per cult we have seen 4 out of 36 things.
Soup within TS is also not restricted by these.
I think, for whatever reason, GW is content with chaos being the "soup faction" which.... kinda makes sense in a way. deamon summoning etc has always been a bit of a thing for chaos o the idea of running CSMs along chaos demons etc is pretty deeply engrained in the DNA of chaos. it sucks I agree but, I'm just trying to figure out their logic here
I think chaos players should just do what I do, and realize they will get a million books, but little will actually change for them as a result of such. Really keep the bar so low that any buffs will be a gift and you'll be better served. I think GW has shown they have no understanding or real care for chaos aside from selling them all of the books. Not trying to be snarky here just trying to speak honestly. I really feel bad for the chaos players who get the worlds smallest baby steps but spread out over so many publications.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I think chaos players should just do what I do, and realize they will get a million books, but little will actually change for them as a result of such. Really keep the bar so low that any buffs will be a gift and you'll be better served. I think GW has shown they have no understanding or real care for chaos aside from selling them all of the books. Not trying to be snarky here just trying to speak honestly. I really feel bad for the chaos players who get the worlds smallest baby steps but spread out over so many publications.
The part I find amusing is stuff like the model of the year poll. Chaos did really very well in the results, showing off a rather high degree of popularity..
If they had rules to match, they'd sell by the bucket.
Some of this new stuff looks nice and will fill some holes, but the largest problem TS have is that they have no traits to improve their stats, at a time when loyalists basically have 4 (2 part chapter trait, doctrines, super doctrine bonus.) People were hoping we'd get some, or get powers/strats that were strong enough to compensate for the lack of them. But we're not getting that.
Considering a strat, relic, wl trait, and spell per cult we have seen 4 out of 36 things.
Soup within TS is also not restricted by these.
Yes, but we can see from these things that they aren't super powerful. They are average to above average, which is nice. So they aren't going to make up the overall power gap. We're still gonna have to wait for trait overhaul's or some other sort of extra layer of special rules that Chaos marines of all stripes need if they are going to measure up to loyalists.
This is in line with what I was expecting maybe a little better. So far nothing previewed looks like absolute crap and that is something. I could see using any of the preview stuff. But there are lots of missing details. I will reserve judgment until I see full rules.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I think chaos players should just do what I do, and realize they will get a million books, but little will actually change for them as a result of such. Really keep the bar so low that any buffs will be a gift and you'll be better served. I think GW has shown they have no understanding or real care for chaos aside from selling them all of the books. Not trying to be snarky here just trying to speak honestly. I really feel bad for the chaos players who get the worlds smallest baby steps but spread out over so many publications.
The part I find amusing is stuff like the model of the year poll. Chaos did really very well in the results, showing off a rather high degree of popularity..
If they had rules to match, they'd sell by the bucket.
chaos did more then well, it's constantly topped the model of the year polls ever since it started. at the very least you can argue that "models as art" are some of the prefered models out there.
that said each of the model of the year winners are single display models you're not likely to buy repeats of (ok I'm sure someone has a company strong army of noise marines made out of the noise marine model out there but yeah not common) So could it be that the rank and file of chaos isn't all that popular?
maybe, however I suspect a lot of people where buying things like the MK IV and MK 3 kit for chaos before the new CSM kit came out so the figures may have been a bit... wonky
deTox91 wrote: I don't know if it's just me but this TS preview looks very disappointing? specially if compared to GK.
No passive bonus of any kind, so most of the army still doesn't have any trait at all,
Time Flux looks decent, but doesn't really have any good target for, maybe just SoT but they are a very underwhelming unit to begin with.
The trait and relic shown are totally MEH, I have a feeling that TS will remain just a Codex Supreme Command detachment still...
the new strat is OP and will totally feth you in half.
IMAGINE taking 20 rubrics with flamers for the low low cost of 480 pts and deploying them in your opponent's face.
thats TONS OF DAMAGE and has LITTERALLY NO COUNTERS.
Except being seized, or marines deploying their "no deepstrike allowed" units or being a super fragile expensive bomb in your opponents face.....
god i hope the sons get more interesting stuff in the rest of the book.
How?
You have to deploy more than 9 inches away and flamers have an 8 inch range. Seems absolutely worthless, I'd rather just have the warp bolters.
I mean imagine doing this with flamers vs Tau?
**Laughs in Tau Pulse Rifle supported by a Cadre*
This isn't regular plays by the rules deep strike, they're getting nu-marine bs deployment phase deep strike. So if they have turn 1 they can just walk up and shoot.
And if they don't, they get deleted. Seems pretty meh to me.
Some of this new stuff looks nice and will fill some holes, but the largest problem TS have is that they have no traits to improve their stats, at a time when loyalists basically have 4 (2 part chapter trait, doctrines, super doctrine bonus.) People were hoping we'd get some, or get powers/strats that were strong enough to compensate for the lack of them. But we're not getting that.
Considering a strat, relic, wl trait, and spell per cult we have seen 4 out of 36 things.
Soup within TS is also not restricted by these.
I think, for whatever reason, GW is content with chaos being the "soup faction" which.... kinda makes sense in a way. deamon summoning etc has always been a bit of a thing for chaos o the idea of running CSMs along chaos demons etc is pretty deeply engrained in the DNA of chaos. it sucks I agree but, I'm just trying to figure out their logic here
I've been getting the feeling that's how gw views chaos as well. Which is gak. Plenty of csm players want to be able to run their legion as a pure army just like loyalist players and it doesn't fit the fluff of some of the legions.
It always makes me feel dirty just giving my Night Lords marks.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: I don't mind if they are soup, I mind that their infantry isn't competitive.
One thing that they could do for CSMs is borrow from slaves to darkness. and give CSM characters a aura tied to their mark, that effects all units within X inches with the mark. Do something like that and you could pump the CSM power level up
I’m actually in doubt if the relic works with that as it states “unmodified 9+”, just as I’m not sure how this relic works with changing opponents dice and rerolls, let’s say you have a caster at 1w, you manifest a power with a roll of 6 and 1 and I change your 1 to a 6 so you peril and die...can you then reroll the natural 6 so you’d not peril? Also can you reroll the 1 if I changed your result of 6 into 1? I have a feeling this relic will require a faq
Depends on wording ofreroll. It it doesn't specify failed fair go. Orks often command reroll cast roll to smaller. Or even succesfull charge into longer one.
So, the way I see it is that these are interesting and potentially open up a lot of options for Thousand Sons.
What I am pessimistic about, is how much of an auto take something like a supreme command detachment in a soup list might become, and, I am a tad annoyed at the implied “whole detachment = 1 cult” rule. Granted, it could get OP real fast if you could mix and match and that in 40k the Cults don’t really work together that much, other than to further their own goals/ruin their allies goals, but, with other armies not being restricted if they mix and match sub-factions in 1 detachment, it feels a little harsh at first.
Really hoping we get a full set of leaks like we saw with the DA stuff asap.
Sadly I don't think the cults qualify as a proper subfaction, normally all subfaction have their own passive abilities that they bring to the table, cults do nothing, also TS are not a faction on their own big enough that should have proper subfaction in it at all.
They'll just dilute the content of the release making it very iffy to access the few really good bits that might come out. Let's say you want to play your Rubrics and teleporta them around, that's cult of duplicity, then when they die you'd want to bring some back to life, well you can't that's cult of time, then you'd want that new relic that's yet another cult so you need yet another detachment. I can foresee many cases where the bundle spell/trait/relic will have one of these 3 be very good and the other too be very average so to access one you'll take a hit on the other. Also somehow it all makes the army very not synergistic with itself, in the fluff would really a cult of time member refuse to cast spells on cult of change member? We really didn't need in-army segregation.
If we'd got exactly the same things but cults where never even mentioned, I bet everybody would be much more happy.
BrianDavion wrote: eh before this book was annoucned 1K sons fans where outright saying they wanted rules for the varying cults. can't make everyone happy I guess
The Sorcerers, should've been cult locked, the rubrics should be interactable regardless off cult. The rivalries are betwwen ther sorceres, not their undying underlings.
You know, if you had told me in 2002 that in 18 years Thousand Sons would have separate rules for each of their Cults and that space marine squads would have 2 wounds each and would only be able to take bolters I'd have laughed in your face. Then I would have said wtf is a Cult.
Except we don't really get cults
We get a bunch of spells, relics and warlord traits segregated to spesific combos, while all not having any army wide rule effecting anything other than our HQs. (it technically also effects shamans, rubrics and scarabs, but effectively doesn't as the range does not matter for them, and mini smites are often a trap cast causing more risks than rewards.)
Any word on data cards for the stuff the traitor legions got in faith and fury? I'd much rather pay $15 for the strategems than $40 and it would be nice to have maelstrom cards for the new tactical objectives.
BrianDavion wrote: eh before this book was annoucned 1K sons fans where outright saying they wanted rules for the varying cults. can't make everyone happy I guess
There is a slight difference between what was wanted - Either each sorcerer could have different cults with little support (i.e. the 1 relic, trait & spell), or the army gets 1 cult with multiple spells/relics/traits opened up (although this was unlikely) vs unlocking 1 trait, 1 spell and 1 relic for the whole army.
BrianDavion wrote: eh before this book was annoucned 1K sons fans where outright saying they wanted rules for the varying cults. can't make everyone happy I guess
There is a slight difference between what was wanted - Either each sorcerer could have different cults with little support (i.e. the 1 relic, trait & spell), or the army gets 1 cult with multiple spells/relics/traits opened up (although this was unlikely) vs unlocking 1 trait, 1 spell and 1 relic for the whole army.
Detachment it seems. So equilavent to special detachments ig, orks etc have except no cp cost so better in that.
Cults should be compared to Deathwing and Ravenwing
Both are elements of a Marine Chapter/Legion which are themselves sub factions of Marines/Chaos Marines which are subfactions of Imperium and Chaos respectively.
BrianDavion wrote: eh before this book was annoucned 1K sons fans where outright saying they wanted rules for the varying cults. can't make everyone happy I guess
There is a slight difference between what was wanted - Either each sorcerer could have different cults with little support (i.e. the 1 relic, trait & spell), or the army gets 1 cult with multiple spells/relics/traits opened up (although this was unlikely) vs unlocking 1 trait, 1 spell and 1 relic for the whole army.
Detachment it seems. So equilavent to special detachments ig, orks etc have except no cp cost so better in that.
We know nothing about the cost or restrictions on pledging a detachment to a cult. If they are, indeed "just free real estate" then they're a decent buff (especially alongside a few more stratagems, something Tsons kind of need as their strats are very much focused on the AOS models they were trying to push Tsons players to buy in the book). Rumor prior to the release however was that this bonus required you to not bring any allies besides Daemons summoned out of the Thousand Sons codex.
That puts this more in line with Doctrines, Tides of the Warp and Rituals of Faith. Which, owing to the fact that those are all free army-wide rules that you just get at the start of your game and these are all replacements for other rules you could have used (Traits, Powers, Strats etc) would make this by far the weakest "no soup bonus" that GW has released.
This is kind of like - remember when Ork players were disappointed with the "decurion" they got in the updated Waagh Ghazghkull book in 7th? It wasn't because the rules were the worst thing ever, it was because they were orders of magnitude weaker than what other armies had gotten and seemed very low effort, and we knew at the time that this was GW washing their hands of the orks and declaring they were now even-steven with other factions.
At this point, everyone is reacting based on very incomplete information and their own assumptions. If this is just a straight buff, a mini-subfaction tactics thing for tsons - well, fine. I think that would work pretty much the same as the Eldar stuff out of PA1 - a fairly flat increase in power to the already powerful lists and units the Tsons have which will boost their competitive win percentage without doing much at all to help the army in casual play. Tsons stats will still be reflective of the performance of Ahriman+3DPs stapled on to a soup list. Whatever the most powerful cult for a supreme command detachment made up of 4 characters is, that's what will get played.
Based on the "but why no mad about eldar" thread, that buff wasn't super popular among eldar players or eldar detractors, because it basically made the problem units in the codex more obnoxious to deal with without really giving much of a reason to take the underperformers. The rich just got richer.
Personally, I welcome anything that lets me differentiate between my...god, six, incredibly different looking sorceror models. As of right now they're all locked in to bolt pistol/force staff and the only way to make them different is powers, mobility options, and relics/traits, so more of those is always better.
Spreelock wrote: Hey, has anyone got Grey Knights stuff summarized? They seem to have good potential from the rules so far.
So far, we know:
Tides of the Warp: Grey Knights gain one of the following army-wide special rules if your army only has the GREY KNIGHTS keyword. These last all game, and can be changed via a psychic power (we don't know the WC cost). Players are assuming the change takes place immediately after the cast in the psychic phase but we have not seen the text of the rule.
1) Reroll 1s to wound with attacks made by Nemesis weapons in the fight phase
2) Add 1 to Strength and Damage of all Psi weapons fired by Infantry models
3) All units gain the benefit of cover. Units on or within terrain are -1 to hit with shooting attacks
4) The psychic power Smite deals 1 additional mortal wound
Grey knights will get 6 additional psychic powers. Swapping the Tides is one of them. Empyrean Domination is another one: WC7, gain 1 Command Point.
Grey Knights will also get additional stratagems. We know 2: Empyric Surge. WC1, use after a GREY KNIGHTS unit manifests a psychic power. All other GREY KNIGHTS units within 6" gain +1 to cast.
Another stratagem we know is 1CP, use when a unit deploys on the board after using the Teleporter datasheet ability (So, all units that can natively deep strike, not units that have to use the stratagem to deep strike). That unit can be placed over 3" away instead of over 9" away, but cannot charge.
GK also have new relics. Presumably 6. We know 1: Replaces Nemesis Warding Stave. When an enemy psyker manifests within 18" of the bearer, it perils on any roll of doubles.
And finally they have 6 new chaplain litanies. Unknown whether they get the base codex ones as well. We know 1: Recitation of Projection. All GREY KNIGHTS units within 6" of the chaplain add 6" to the maximum range of their bolt and psi weapons.
Apparently, I was shocked too. I had no idea they were a thing either, let alone seen one.
I'm actually more shocked they have Librarians. When you have a faction 100% comprised of psykers it seems a bit odd to still have a unit whose only notable feature is 'psyker'.
Librarians have the specific role of keeping track of what's going on for the after-action report, and lore-keeping, as well as battlefield psychic duties. Also, they're part of the Chapter High Command (including Company Captains, Reclusium, Apothecarium, and Forge Masters).
I'm actually more shocked they have Librarians. When you have a faction 100% comprised of psykers it seems a bit odd to still have a unit whose only notable feature is 'psyker'.
I'm actually more shocked they have Librarians. When you have a faction 100% comprised of psykers it seems a bit odd to still have a unit whose only notable feature is 'psyker'.
Yeah, I always thought that was silly.
It's double silly because they're identical to regular SM librarians rules-wise except that their smites are worse and they have access to 6 powers instead of 54.
...God, every time I type out that one faction has access to 54 psychic powers and it's not any of the like 4 factions that are the dedicated psychic ones...
The dark angel's update seems more or less as Valarak said it would be, and I'm trying to temper my initial reaction. Additional range is pretty weird, not necessarily unwelcome, Given that plasma has a shorter range than most other heavy weapons. The issue is that it seems like GW is doubling down on the DA castle, which has not been successful in this entire edition, and a little extra range is not going to fix that. On the bright side though, at least we get to start in our favored doctrine, which is more than the BA got.
I'll withhold judgment on the Deathwing raven wing thing until we get more info (probably this Friday or Saturday), because it seems like DA might have a fix for what's wrong with termies, getting them into the fight, but that will depend on warlord traits and relics.
There's been a list of rumours, that so far have been accurate (also from valrak). The deathwing and ravenwing had pretty good load-out of traits and stratagems, most notably relic banners. I've been a little disappointed about super-doctrine being a range buff, but that's welcome since Dark Angels are more suited for gunline army. As a long-term Dark Angels player, i've been so hyped about this release, that I even started considering Grey Knights army for my next project.
The range buff is great in the current meta since DA will outrange their counterparts in marine "mirror" matches.
It's also great for Ravenwing since it allows them to remain out of range of opponents while harassing (or in the case of Talonmasters, dumping insane amounts of dakka - one of the rumored relics gives a Talonmaster BS 2+ and +6 extra range).
Overall, it looks like DA will be able to play a very strong deny game against other marine armies, and will be able to play a stronger board control game than previously.
abyrn wrote: The range buff is great in the current meta since DA will outrange their counterparts in marine "mirror" matches.
It's also great for Ravenwing since it allows them to remain out of range of opponents while harassing (or in the case of Talonmasters, dumping insane amounts of dakka - one of the rumored relics gives a Talonmaster BS 2+ and +6 extra range).
Overall, it looks like DA will be able to play a very strong deny game against other marine armies, and will be able to play a stronger board control game than previously.
Which kind of suites their lore. Stoic warriors being extremely tactical and outplaying opponents while the DW and RW act as the mobile hammer and anvil.
Latro_ wrote: So dark angels successor chapters with the range buff can have 33" bolters and 15" flamers....
Flamers are 8" range, 8+3+3... Regardless, Blood Angels successors did not get access to the successor trait system in the Space Marine Codex. Dark Angels successors will undoubtedly be the same--so this will not be possible.
Why is their super doctrine called Relentless Hunt? What does shooting people from farther away have to do with being relentless or hunting? Wouldn't it have made more sense to call it Relentless Shooters or Shooty Hunt?
From the Great Beasts of Caliban to their nefarious Fallen brothers, the Dark Angels have always been shooty in shooting their quarry.
abyrn wrote: The range buff is great in the current meta since DA will outrange their counterparts in marine "mirror" matches.
It's also great for Ravenwing since it allows them to remain out of range of opponents while harassing (or in the case of Talonmasters, dumping insane amounts of dakka - one of the rumored relics gives a Talonmaster BS 2+ and +6 extra range).
Overall, it looks like DA will be able to play a very strong deny game against other marine armies, and will be able to play a stronger board control game than previously.
Which kind of suites their lore. Stoic warriors being extremely tactical and outplaying opponents while the DW and RW act as the mobile hammer and anvil.
I like it!
Stoic warriors, being tactical by...standing still, outplaying opponents by...getting more rules than them for not doing anything.
This is my favorite space marine player take. I hope that there is someone out there who won a game without moving a single model after the marine supplements came out and thought
abyrn wrote: The range buff is great in the current meta since DA will outrange their counterparts in marine "mirror" matches.
It's also great for Ravenwing since it allows them to remain out of range of opponents while harassing (or in the case of Talonmasters, dumping insane amounts of dakka - one of the rumored relics gives a Talonmaster BS 2+ and +6 extra range).
Overall, it looks like DA will be able to play a very strong deny game against other marine armies, and will be able to play a stronger board control game than previously.
Which kind of suites their lore. Stoic warriors being extremely tactical and outplaying opponents while the DW and RW act as the mobile hammer and anvil.
I like it!
Stoic warriors, being tactical by...standing still, outplaying opponents by...getting more rules than them for not doing anything.
This is my favorite space marine player take. I hope that there is someone out there who won a game without moving a single model after the marine supplements came out and thought
abyrn wrote: The range buff is great in the current meta since DA will outrange their counterparts in marine "mirror" matches.
It's also great for Ravenwing since it allows them to remain out of range of opponents while harassing (or in the case of Talonmasters, dumping insane amounts of dakka - one of the rumored relics gives a Talonmaster BS 2+ and +6 extra range).
Overall, it looks like DA will be able to play a very strong deny game against other marine armies, and will be able to play a stronger board control game than previously.
Which kind of suites their lore. Stoic warriors being extremely tactical and outplaying opponents while the DW and RW act as the mobile hammer and anvil.
I like it!
Stoic warriors, being tactical by...standing still, outplaying opponents by...getting more rules than them for not doing anything.
This is my favorite space marine player take. I hope that there is someone out there who won a game without moving a single model after the marine supplements came out and thought
"heh. Get outplayed."
Yes. A true tactical genius (hurr) chooses his battles wisely so he has won before the first shot is fired.
abyrn wrote: The range buff is great in the current meta since DA will outrange their counterparts in marine "mirror" matches.
It's also great for Ravenwing since it allows them to remain out of range of opponents while harassing (or in the case of Talonmasters, dumping insane amounts of dakka - one of the rumored relics gives a Talonmaster BS 2+ and +6 extra range).
Overall, it looks like DA will be able to play a very strong deny game against other marine armies, and will be able to play a stronger board control game than previously.
Which kind of suites their lore. Stoic warriors being extremely tactical and outplaying opponents while the DW and RW act as the mobile hammer and anvil.
I like it!
Stoic warriors, being tactical by...standing still, outplaying opponents by...getting more rules than them for not doing anything.
This is my favorite space marine player take. I hope that there is someone out there who won a game without moving a single model after the marine supplements came out and thought
"heh. Get outplayed."
Need some pepper with all that salt hombre? God forbid I try to tie the lore to my rules.
abyrn wrote: The range buff is great in the current meta since DA will outrange their counterparts in marine "mirror" matches.
It's also great for Ravenwing since it allows them to remain out of range of opponents while harassing (or in the case of Talonmasters, dumping insane amounts of dakka - one of the rumored relics gives a Talonmaster BS 2+ and +6 extra range).
Overall, it looks like DA will be able to play a very strong deny game against other marine armies, and will be able to play a stronger board control game than previously.
Which kind of suites their lore. Stoic warriors being extremely tactical and outplaying opponents while the DW and RW act as the mobile hammer and anvil.
I like it!
Stoic warriors, being tactical by...standing still, outplaying opponents by...getting more rules than them for not doing anything.
This is my favorite space marine player take. I hope that there is someone out there who won a game without moving a single model after the marine supplements came out and thought
abyrn wrote: The range buff is great in the current meta since DA will outrange their counterparts in marine "mirror" matches.
It's also great for Ravenwing since it allows them to remain out of range of opponents while harassing (or in the case of Talonmasters, dumping insane amounts of dakka - one of the rumored relics gives a Talonmaster BS 2+ and +6 extra range).
Overall, it looks like DA will be able to play a very strong deny game against other marine armies, and will be able to play a stronger board control game than previously.
Which kind of suites their lore. Stoic warriors being extremely tactical and outplaying opponents while the DW and RW act as the mobile hammer and anvil.
I like it!
Stoic warriors, being tactical by...standing still, outplaying opponents by...getting more rules than them for not doing anything.
This is my favorite space marine player take. I hope that there is someone out there who won a game without moving a single model after the marine supplements came out and thought
"heh. Get outplayed."
Well let's break this down:
-Proper deployment is a HUGE tactical element
-He never said nor implied nothing would move
-He referenced RW and DW serving different roles to support the castle
So what were you responding to? It wasn't his post, you must have misquoted.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Seems like TSons players are more unhappy now than if they got nothing at all...?
Imho yes, mind you that’s just me, getting nothing means that at some point in the future you’ll get something and it might be good, getting something mediocre (might not be as bad, opinion based on what was seen) means that you indeed got something and given the very slow release cycle also means you won’t see anything else for 1+ years.
Add to that that this is the “Psychic Awakening” and as an one trick pony psychic phase army you’d think that’s your time to shine, and the fact that sadly everything ends up being benchmarked against space marines (since the amazing cool rules they keep on getting) and there you go you have a whole lot of underwhelmed TS players
That makes sense. Though we haven't seen everything yet--there could still be some juicy bits in there!
abyrn wrote: The range buff is great in the current meta since DA will outrange their counterparts in marine "mirror" matches.
It's also great for Ravenwing since it allows them to remain out of range of opponents while harassing (or in the case of Talonmasters, dumping insane amounts of dakka - one of the rumored relics gives a Talonmaster BS 2+ and +6 extra range).
Overall, it looks like DA will be able to play a very strong deny game against other marine armies, and will be able to play a stronger board control game than previously.
Which kind of suites their lore. Stoic warriors being extremely tactical and outplaying opponents while the DW and RW act as the mobile hammer and anvil.
I like it!
Stoic warriors, being tactical by...standing still, outplaying opponents by...getting more rules than them for not doing anything.
This is my favorite space marine player take. I hope that there is someone out there who won a game without moving a single model after the marine supplements came out and thought
"heh. Get outplayed."
I'd say it's more like outboxing, using a reach advantage in combination with speedier elements to set the pace and limit your opponent's options. By having a castle with better than space marine normal range, that can support their short-range units from relative safety. If the leaks are correct we could be looking at a DA castle with a 4+ invul and a 5+ FnP, which could be a tough nut to crack. The castle will be as mobile as any marine formation thanks to Azrael and the fact that most of the DA shooting will be rapid-fire.This is while wielding weapons specifically designed to kill other marines. That's what I imagine they are going for, whether or not they pull it off depends on how good the buffs to Deathwing and Ravenwing are.
abyrn wrote: The range buff is great in the current meta since DA will outrange their counterparts in marine "mirror" matches.
It's also great for Ravenwing since it allows them to remain out of range of opponents while harassing (or in the case of Talonmasters, dumping insane amounts of dakka - one of the rumored relics gives a Talonmaster BS 2+ and +6 extra range).
Overall, it looks like DA will be able to play a very strong deny game against other marine armies, and will be able to play a stronger board control game than previously.
Which kind of suites their lore. Stoic warriors being extremely tactical and outplaying opponents while the DW and RW act as the mobile hammer and anvil.
I like it!
Stoic warriors, being tactical by...standing still, outplaying opponents by...getting more rules than them for not doing anything.
This is my favorite space marine player take. I hope that there is someone out there who won a game without moving a single model after the marine supplements came out and thought
"heh. Get outplayed."
I'd say it's more like outboxing, using a reach advantage in combination with speedier elements to set the pace and limit your opponent's options. By having a castle with better than space marine normal range, that can support their short-range units from relative safety. If the leaks are correct we could be looking at a DA castle with a 4+ invul and a 5+ FnP, which could be a tough nut to crack. The castle will be as mobile as any marine formation thanks to Azrael and the fact that most of the DA shooting will be rapid-fire.This is while wielding weapons specifically designed to kill other marines. That's what I imagine they are going for, whether or not they pull it off depends on how good the buffs to Deathwing and Ravenwing are.
All the new rules are leaked. We know what DW and Ravenwing are getting, and honestly, a shiny nickel says competitive DA lists are going to look incredibly similar to competitive RG lists. You might have one unit of Ravenwing using the free turn 1 charge warlord trait as a disruption unit, but the rest of the army is gonna be a huge blob of marines that will move if and only if they can't win by sitting on the objectives in their DZ and blowing the opponent off the table.
Space Marines have been fundamentally changed from a mostly mechanized army to a gunline, and the army of players that used to gak on Tau for only playing in a single phase of the game are now applauding rules that allow them to never ever ever have to leave their deployment zone, and get extra rules for making the "tactical" decision of standing still.
The people who thought a fire warrior was unfun bs for standing in the DZ plunking away with a 30" range S5 gun now have 36" range S4 Ap-1 guns with double the shots.
DW and Ravenwing seem like support elements to a really fun, cool army. Too bad instead of that they're stapled on to the most boring marines in the entire game. I am 1000% offering every DA player I play against a free 5CP if he agrees to bring no greenwing at all.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I love the fact that you can spot the people in this thread that don't actually own or play Grey Knights in 8th edition with the Chaplain shock.
now now, having a strong opinion and pushing it forward on everyone despite being largely ignorant of the topic is pretty much a modern tradtion these days
casvalremdeikun wrote: I love the fact that you can spot the people in this thread that don't actually own or play Grey Knights in 8th edition with the Chaplain shock.
now now, having a strong opinion and pushing it forward on everyone despite being largely ignorant of the topic is pretty much a modern tradtion these days
I wonder where these people were over two years ago when Grey Knights actually got Chaplains.
Ratius wrote: GSC in there too? Hmmm strangely intriguing.
Yes, and each Cult Creed will be getting additional warlord traits, relics, and stratagems! For example, the Cult of the
Four-Armed Emperor will have no less than 4 warlord traits to choose from - one for each arm! If you dedicate your detachment to the Upper Right Arm you can give your warlord a warlord trait that lets you redeploy up to D3 blips anywhere in your deployment zone!
I'm excited for new DG stuff, even if it ends up being only a few more relics and stratagems. I was going to sell my DG a few weeks ago but the LGS started an Escalation league around that time so I decided to hang onto them.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I love the fact that you can spot the people in this thread that don't actually own or play Grey Knights in 8th edition with the Chaplain shock.
now now, having a strong opinion and pushing it forward on everyone despite being largely ignorant of the topic is pretty much a modern tradtion these days
Cannot. Exalt. Enough. Times.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ikeulhu wrote: Yup, as has already been pointed out, the three armies are very thematically appropriate to the concept of pursuing a "Greater Good"
Either someone in GW is/was actually clever, or it somehow happened as a happy accident!
People like to rag on GW writing (not unjustified at times), but regardless they do have good writers and good fluff going on there. People simply wouldn't care about Warhammer fluff as much as they do if it wasn't enjoyable. And at its core that is all good writing is.
NinthMusketeer wrote: People like to rag on GW writing (not unjustified at times), but regardless they do have good writers and good fluff going on there. People simply wouldn't care about Warhammer fluff as much as they do if it wasn't enjoyable. And at its core that is all good writing is.
Yeah, I am mostly just poking fun, as in all honesty the fluff is what hooked and kept me interested in the setting since the days of 1st edition Space Hulk. I never played an actual game of 40k until 8th edition, and it was the video games and Black Library that really lead to my love of the setting.
Too bad extra relics and warlord traits aren’t very useful since only space marines are able to just spend CP on a 1:1 basis to take more of each. I fail to see how either are considered “more content” when you’re restricted to 1 warlord trait and generally 2 relics. If these aren’t atleast the same as existing TS options then they’re basically doa.
Kirasu wrote: Too bad extra relics and warlord traits aren’t very useful since only space marines are able to just spend CP on a 1:1 basis to take more of each. I fail to see how either are considered “more content” when you’re restricted to 1 warlord trait and generally 2 relics. If these aren’t atleast the same as existing TS options then they’re basically doa.
More options are a power upgrade, just horizontally rather than vertically. Easier to customize to a specific playstyle, build or gimmick. It isn't as powerful in an absolute sense, but its a healthier approach to game design. (in a way that trading CP for more abilities isn't). Though at this point its reached the point of bloat, rather than a healthy selection of options.
As is often the case, it comes back to GW needing to cap CP generation and setting standards for what can be done with them. 'A single reroll' was the standard for a single CP in the core rules, and that means jack squat now, because there are hundreds of ways of getting rerolls just by taking units you'd take anyway.
Kirasu wrote: Too bad extra relics and warlord traits aren’t very useful since only space marines are able to just spend CP on a 1:1 basis to take more of each. I fail to see how either are considered “more content” when you’re restricted to 1 warlord trait and generally 2 relics. If these aren’t atleast the same as existing TS options then they’re basically doa.
Kirasu wrote: Too bad extra relics and warlord traits aren’t very useful since only space marines are able to just spend CP on a 1:1 basis to take more of each. I fail to see how either are considered “more content” when you’re restricted to 1 warlord trait and generally 2 relics. If these aren’t atleast the same as existing TS options then they’re basically doa.
Sisters as well.
only if you define "DOA" as "not immediatly breaking the meta and gaining a 70% win rating"
Kirasu wrote: Too bad extra relics and warlord traits aren’t very useful since only space marines are able to just spend CP on a 1:1 basis to take more of each. I fail to see how either are considered “more content” when you’re restricted to 1 warlord trait and generally 2 relics. If these aren’t atleast the same as existing TS options then they’re basically doa.
Sisters as well.
Kind of makes you want to question the whole "just wait for the new codex then you'll get rules to bring your faction up to marines level " line doesn't it?
Argive wrote: Hope we will get far more horizontal upgrades and far less vertical must have upgrades and re-rolls everything type stuff in the long run.
Yeah I'd much rather gw bring marines down a peg than bring everyone else up to their level. 8th is killy enough already.
Kirasu wrote: Too bad extra relics and warlord traits aren’t very useful since only space marines are able to just spend CP on a 1:1 basis to take more of each. I fail to see how either are considered “more content” when you’re restricted to 1 warlord trait and generally 2 relics. If these aren’t atleast the same as existing TS options then they’re basically doa.
Sisters as well.
Kind of makes you want to question the whole "just wait for the new codex then you'll get rules to bring your faction up to marines level " line doesn't it?
How's so? Flrst codex after marines have both multiple relic, extra warlord trait and superior melta all introduced in marine codex. Makes sense same come to other 2.0 codexes
Kind of makes you want to question the whole "just wait for the new codex then you'll get rules to bring your faction up to marines level " line doesn't it?
Which was always non-sense.
A) It’s improbable all factions would get a new Codex, since it seems unlikely even a handful of them would get a miniature-release comparable to the current wave of Marines (and Sisters). Maybe 1 or 2 more factions might get that treatment in 2020.
B) It’s unlikely the strength of Marines was intentional, even IF all factions were to get a new book. Past balance-screw-ups weren’t.
C) IF Marine-strength was intentional and GW wanted to raise all armies to “Marine” strength, it seems silly to discount PA as the way to do it. PA clearly brought things like Blood Angels and Dark Angels in line, so the idea that “PA Tyranids aren’t (yet) at Marine levels, because it’s not their (speculatively assumed) 2.0 Codex” don’t really make sense. Why would GW, if the intended plan was to raise the game strength of all armies, not use the PA books for that purpose, given how these books explicitly give rules to everyone in a short period?
D) If all armies were to get a new Codex and all armies were upped to Marine-Levels of output and reliability, the game would be dead, as the coin flip of who starts would decide far too many games (unless TOs go even more out of their way to comp. the game with even more ludicrous terrain and LoS houserules, and even those don’t faze Imperial Fists, etc....
If people wanna ride GW’s latest rules-writing screw-up to crush people at the FLGS or the LVO, cool. That’s basically been the definition of “playing competitively” for decades. But all the apologist conspiracy theories about how the Marine-game-balance-desaster was somehow “intentional” just seems odd.
Kirasu wrote: Too bad extra relics and warlord traits aren’t very useful since only space marines are able to just spend CP on a 1:1 basis to take more of each. I fail to see how either are considered “more content” when you’re restricted to 1 warlord trait and generally 2 relics. If these aren’t atleast the same as existing TS options then they’re basically doa.
Sisters as well.
Kind of makes you want to question the whole "just wait for the new codex then you'll get rules to bring your faction up to marines level " line doesn't it?
How's so? Flrst codex after marines have both multiple relic, extra warlord trait and superior melta all introduced in marine codex. Makes sense same come to other 2.0 codexes
The Sisters got some good stuff but not marines level broken. Which is good. We don't need an arms race. Unless you like two turn games.
Kirasu wrote: Too bad extra relics and warlord traits aren’t very useful since only space marines are able to just spend CP on a 1:1 basis to take more of each. I fail to see how either are considered “more content” when you’re restricted to 1 warlord trait and generally 2 relics. If these aren’t atleast the same as existing TS options then they’re basically doa.
Sisters as well.
only if you define "DOA" as "not immediatly breaking the meta and gaining a 70% win rating"
Or, the actual definition he's using of something your would never use because it requires to trade away something that's already better.
A hundred new warlord traits would change nothing unless they are better than the existing ones when you are limited to, because only they best matters.
And when you mix the fact TS apperantly only get replacement, with no add ons, and to top it off they are limited to highly spesific bundles-we are not going to see TS move away from "supcom only", as efficiently the army gained nothing.
Kirasu wrote: Too bad extra relics and warlord traits aren’t very useful since only space marines are able to just spend CP on a 1:1 basis to take more of each. I fail to see how either are considered “more content” when you’re restricted to 1 warlord trait and generally 2 relics. If these aren’t atleast the same as existing TS options then they’re basically doa.
Sisters as well.
only if you define "DOA" as "not immediatly breaking the meta and gaining a 70% win rating"
Or, the actual definition he's using of something your would never use because it requires to trade away something that's already better.
A hundred new warlord traits would change nothing unless they are better than the existing ones when you are limited to, because only they best matters.
And when you mix the fact TS apperantly only get replacement, with no add ons, and to top it off they are limited to highly spesific bundles-we are not going to see TS move away from "supcom only", as efficiently the army gained nothing.
I was refering to sisters, a codex I have and am happy with, I'm withholding judgement on 1k sons until we get the full picture. (seriously, you're proably right that 1k sons isn't going to be all that amazing but for all we know there's some brokenly OP stuff in there that'll make iron hands look like 8th edition grey knights) but sisters I feel are in a pretty good place. they've got some weaknesses but the army over all seems to synergize pretty well
Kirasu wrote: Too bad extra relics and warlord traits aren’t very useful since only space marines are able to just spend CP on a 1:1 basis to take more of each. I fail to see how either are considered “more content” when you’re restricted to 1 warlord trait and generally 2 relics. If these aren’t atleast the same as existing TS options then they’re basically doa.
Sisters as well.
BA didn't get the 1:1 relic strat either. As we are playing with two books right now and the first was written without the knowledge that a second will come out later, I guess GW just don't want to change any existing strats. I would bet that it will be the same for DA, GK and SW later on.
it'd be easy eneugh to make the change in errata if they so choose. but from GW's POV it'd be a lot of work for minimal gain. It's the type of thing local play groups though can and should house rule.
Kirasu wrote: Too bad extra relics and warlord traits aren’t very useful since only space marines are able to just spend CP on a 1:1 basis to take more of each. I fail to see how either are considered “more content” when you’re restricted to 1 warlord trait and generally 2 relics. If these aren’t atleast the same as existing TS options then they’re basically doa.
Sisters as well.
BA didn't get the 1:1 relic strat either. As we are playing with two books right now and the first was written without the knowledge that a second will come out later, I guess GW just don't want to change any existing strats. I would bet that it will be the same for DA, GK and SW later on.
PA isn't codex though. When BA codex 2.0 comes it's there. Of course that could be a while but then again might not. It's marines.
Kirasu wrote: Too bad extra relics and warlord traits aren’t very useful since only space marines are able to just spend CP on a 1:1 basis to take more of each. I fail to see how either are considered “more content” when you’re restricted to 1 warlord trait and generally 2 relics. If these aren’t atleast the same as existing TS options then they’re basically doa.
Sisters as well.
only if you define "DOA" as "not immediatly breaking the meta and gaining a 70% win rating"
Or, the actual definition he's using of something your would never use because it requires to trade away something that's already better.
A hundred new warlord traits would change nothing unless they are better than the existing ones when you are limited to, because only they best matters.
And when you mix the fact TS apperantly only get replacement, with no add ons, and to top it off they are limited to highly spesific bundles-we are not going to see TS move away from "supcom only", as efficiently the army gained nothing.
I was refering to sisters, a codex I have and am happy with, I'm withholding judgement on 1k sons until we get the full picture. (seriously, you're proably right that 1k sons isn't going to be all that amazing but for all we know there's some brokenly OP stuff in there that'll make iron hands look like 8th edition grey knights) but sisters I feel are in a pretty good place. they've got some weaknesses but the army over all seems to synergize pretty well
Given that nobody but Marines is getting any passive army wide buff and "spend 2 CP to give this forever aura to this character" type of things, it's literally impossible that TS will get anything broken, you could print the strongest stratagem in the history of WH40k and still a one off trick would never compare to 5/6 passive game long effects sadly.
Damn buying this DA/GK codex will really feel bad for TS players, which is the thing that probably annoys me the most, I don't care that they are getting all the cool rules, but just print them in their own DA supplement instead of forcing NPC factions to buy marine staff for subpar rules that you'll get to see side by side in the same book
deTox91 wrote: Given that nobody but Marines is getting any passive army wide buff and "spend 2 CP to give this forever aura to this character" type of things, it's literally impossible that TS will get anything broken, you could print the strongest stratagem in the history of WH40k and still a one off trick would never compare to 5/6 passive game long effects sadly.
The Flesh Change (2 CP): Replace all enemy ADEPTUS ASTARTES models with Rubric Marines (pg. 9).
Kirasu wrote: Too bad extra relics and warlord traits aren’t very useful since only space marines are able to just spend CP on a 1:1 basis to take more of each. I fail to see how either are considered “more content” when you’re restricted to 1 warlord trait and generally 2 relics. If these aren’t atleast the same as existing TS options then they’re basically doa.
Sisters as well.
only if you define "DOA" as "not immediatly breaking the meta and gaining a 70% win rating"
Or, the actual definition he's using of something your would never use because it requires to trade away something that's already better.
A hundred new warlord traits would change nothing unless they are better than the existing ones when you are limited to, because only they best matters.
And when you mix the fact TS apperantly only get replacement, with no add ons, and to top it off they are limited to highly spesific bundles-we are not going to see TS move away from "supcom only", as efficiently the army gained nothing.
I was refering to sisters, a codex I have and am happy with, I'm withholding judgement on 1k sons until we get the full picture. (seriously, you're proably right that 1k sons isn't going to be all that amazing but for all we know there's some brokenly OP stuff in there that'll make iron hands look like 8th edition grey knights) but sisters I feel are in a pretty good place. they've got some weaknesses but the army over all seems to synergize pretty well
Given that nobody but Marines is getting any passive army wide buff and "spend 2 CP to give this forever aura to this character" type of things, it's literally impossible that TS will get anything broken, you could print the strongest stratagem in the history of WH40k and still a one off trick would never compare to 5/6 passive game long effects sadly.
Damn buying this DA/GK codex will really feel bad for TS players, which is the thing that probably annoys me the most, I don't care that they are getting all the cool rules, but just print them in their own DA supplement instead of forcing NPC factions to buy marine staff for subpar rules that you'll get to see side by side in the same book
Sisters got army wide mono faction buffs. But yeah a contrast and compare makes it seem a little cringe worthy, if GW put the statement out saying they expect chaos to soup hence don't get mono faction bonuses that would help, but be pr suicide probs.
deTox91 wrote: Given that nobody but Marines is getting any passive army wide buff and "spend 2 CP to give this forever aura to this character" type of things, it's literally impossible that TS will get anything broken, you could print the strongest stratagem in the history of WH40k and still a one off trick would never compare to 5/6 passive game long effects sadly.
The Flesh Change (2 CP): Replace all enemy ADEPTUS ASTARTES models with Rubric Marines (pg. 9).
*spawn.
Also, the great rubricae, all spawn get replaced with rubric marines under the casters controll.
Spoletta wrote: All the PA until now gave only horizontal buffs (except for marines), i don't know why people are expecting something different this time.
eh, it's just the same continuous amazement that GW is looking to buff the power of all loyalist marine factions by about 25% while keeping everyone else the same when they teased "something for everyone" out of this book series.
Honestly, besides their couple of very strong HQs, Thousand Sons are in an identical spot to something like GK. Their biggest strength was the fact that they could opt to not take any marines at all while still being technically the Thousand Sons faction (thanks to cultists/tzaangors/daemon princes). And, also like GK, their chapter tactic could have literally just been written in to the stats of their psychic powers, and you even get powers where GW purposefully reduces them to account for the existence of the chapter tactic so you get nothing (for example: The newly revealed Thousand Sons psychic power that is the same as the orks "Da Jump", the same warp charge cost, but it's 6" lower range because Tsons chapter tactic is +6" range on psychic powers).
They're 1W astartes that are mini-psykers, as expensive as primaris marines, with a gimmick that's massively overshadowed by the new Doctrine buffs.
"Rubrics are as expensive as primaris because they get those sweet AP-2 boltguns! Oh, it's turn 2.....all the intercessors have AP-2 boltguns too...rats."
It kind of abstractly sucks from some kind of xenos perspective, where you've got all these fancy marine rules that are better versions of all your gimmicks, but it's really crazy where you're sitting there looking at two units that are EXACTLY the SAME, and exactly the same level of non-functional, and GW recognizes that and buffs one while in the exact same book leaving the other alone.
Because rules balance patches being sold in fething 40$ hardback books just isn't enough - you have to buy a codex, AND a chapter approved for your points changes, AND a campaign book to have all your stratagems and relics and such, AND an eventual codex 2.0 (3.0 for CSM :^) ) if you want corrected functional chapter tactics that work on your vehicles.
Kirasu wrote: Too bad extra relics and warlord traits aren’t very useful since only space marines are able to just spend CP on a 1:1 basis to take more of each. I fail to see how either are considered “more content” when you’re restricted to 1 warlord trait and generally 2 relics. If these aren’t atleast the same as existing TS options then they’re basically doa.
Sisters as well.
BA didn't get the 1:1 relic strat either. As we are playing with two books right now and the first was written without the knowledge that a second will come out later, I guess GW just don't want to change any existing strats. I would bet that it will be the same for DA, GK and SW later on.
PA isn't codex though. When BA codex 2.0 comes it's there. Of course that could be a while but then again might not. It's marines.
Uhh God do you really think they will further clog the scedule with yet more Marine Codexes after all these not Marine Supplements ? Its very annoying they did not sort stuff like the 1 CP= 1 relic in these. But then if they had been actual supplements we would not be having this discussion..........
"Da jump" is a 6-inch range in the Ork codex. The spell T-Sons from Cult of Duplicity is *Identical* in every way to Da Jump. Except T-Sons also get the +6 inch cast on top of it. The Thousand Son variant, in this case, is straight better due to the range bonus.
Also, Rubrics are the tiniest hair cheaper than Primaris marines per model. 16ppm as opposed to 17. Inbuilt +1 to save against D1 weaponry, a psyker in every squad with spell access, and a not insubstantial invulnerable (5++) that also increases against D1 weaponry. To go along with those *sweet* ap-2 guns. What else precisely do they need to be decent? I have played against the new marine codex a few times (salamanders and raven guard) and the Rubrics were the star of the show both games.
Not saying they are going to win me tourneys (though they have in fact done that in some regional tourneys I am aware of) but they are not scrubs on the table by any stretch of the imagination.
Unless you have a copy of the Ritual of the Damned speaking to "buffed" rubrics is difficult, we haven't seen the strats, or even the full list of Cults. we have seen 1 Cult in full (Duplicity) and 3 things each from different cults. This is far, far, FAR too early to be making such assumptions.
Mr Morden wrote: Uhh God do you really think they will further clog the scedule with yet more Marine Codexes after all these not Marine Supplements ? Its very annoying they did not sort stuff like the 1 CP= 1 relic in these. But then if they had been actual supplements we would not be having this discussion..........
Sooner or later yes. Do you really think they will stop doing new codexes forever?
Of course if they stop doing marine codexes that will also mean no more non-marine codexes. Or do you think they will be doing new eldar codex mark 5 while blood angels still in mark 1 codex?-) As if.
Ahriman21 wrote: the_scotsman;
Also, Rubrics are the tiniest hair cheaper than Primaris marines per model. 16ppm as opposed to 17. Inbuilt +1 to save against D1 weaponry, a psyker in every squad with spell access, and a not insubstantial invulnerable (5++) that also increases against D1 weaponry. To go along with those *sweet* ap-2 guns. What else precisely do they need to be decent? I have played against the new marine codex a few times (salamanders and raven guard) and the Rubrics were the star of the show both games.
Also they are forced to take a force weapon that bumps the squad costs by 8 points making them more expensive if you compare units, have 6" less range on the guns (12 compared to DA) half the wounds, half the attacks and also one gun less as the sorcerer has only a pistol.
They are not bad mind you, but very far from the point efficiency of Intercessor marines
Ahriman21 wrote: the_scotsman;
Also, Rubrics are the tiniest hair cheaper than Primaris marines per model. 16ppm as opposed to 17. Inbuilt +1 to save against D1 weaponry, a psyker in every squad with spell access, and a not insubstantial invulnerable (5++) that also increases against D1 weaponry. To go along with those *sweet* ap-2 guns. What else precisely do they need to be decent? I have played against the new marine codex a few times (salamanders and raven guard) and the Rubrics were the star of the show both games.
Also they are forced to take a force weapon that bumps the squad costs by 8 points making them more expensive if you compare units, have 6" less range on the guns (12 compared to DA) half the wounds, half the attacks and also one gun less as the sorcerer has only a pistol.
They are not bad mind you, but very far from the point efficiency of Intercessor marines
The only other thing Rubrics should get is move and shoot as stationary for bolters.
Said Primaris tackling Rubrics in cover have a 50/50 of killing one. With spell the rubrics can kill an Intercessor in cover. This assumes both units double tap. So you're down to range considerations.
Ahriman21 wrote: the_scotsman;
Also, Rubrics are the tiniest hair cheaper than Primaris marines per model. 16ppm as opposed to 17. Inbuilt +1 to save against D1 weaponry, a psyker in every squad with spell access, and a not insubstantial invulnerable (5++) that also increases against D1 weaponry. To go along with those *sweet* ap-2 guns. What else precisely do they need to be decent? I have played against the new marine codex a few times (salamanders and raven guard) and the Rubrics were the star of the show both games.
Also they are forced to take a force weapon that bumps the squad costs by 8 points making them more expensive if you compare units, have 6" less range on the guns (12 compared to DA) half the wounds, half the attacks and also one gun less as the sorcerer has only a pistol.
They are not bad mind you, but very far from the point efficiency of Intercessor marines
The only other thing Rubrics should get is move and shoot as stationary for bolters.
Said Primaris tackling Rubrics in cover have a 50/50 of killing one. With spell the rubrics can kill an Intercessor in cover. This assumes both units double tap. So you're down to range considerations.
This I assume is with normal bolters, how does the killing of rubric in cover change if we consider the stalker bolt rifle at AP -3 that negates all is dust? is it roughly the same given that it halves the shots?
Ahriman21 wrote: the_scotsman;
Also, Rubrics are the tiniest hair cheaper than Primaris marines per model. 16ppm as opposed to 17. Inbuilt +1 to save against D1 weaponry, a psyker in every squad with spell access, and a not insubstantial invulnerable (5++) that also increases against D1 weaponry. To go along with those *sweet* ap-2 guns. What else precisely do they need to be decent? I have played against the new marine codex a few times (salamanders and raven guard) and the Rubrics were the star of the show both games.
Also they are forced to take a force weapon that bumps the squad costs by 8 points making them more expensive if you compare units, have 6" less range on the guns (12 compared to DA) half the wounds, half the attacks and also one gun less as the sorcerer has only a pistol.
They are not bad mind you, but very far from the point efficiency of Intercessor marines
Squad of Rubrics (with aspiring, in ten man) is 168.
Squad of intercessors (10 man) is 170.
Obviously the Rubrics at that squad size will spend 10 points and get a Soul Reaper for sure. Makes the squad 178 and more then makes up for the loss of a bolter for its cost.
So its not as cut and dry though I agree that Intercessors due to the overlapping stacking traits + angels of death gets out of hand I have found that my Rubrics trade *Very* well with Intercessors as of the new marine book.
So Dark Angels can get 6" charges now. Gotta love how GW nerfs the charge from DS then gives it back to SM. Meanwhile Tyranids are stuck with the at best 8" charge with reroll.
This I assume is with normal bolters, how does the killing of rubric in cover change if we consider the stalker bolt rifle at AP -3 that negates all is dust? is it roughly the same given that it halves the shots?
5 IH stalkers do 1.3 regardless of cover.
8 inferno bolter shots do 1.3 to marines in cover. A soul reaper does 1.2 on its own.
Give rubrics move and shoot with bolters and they're golden.
Ahriman21 wrote: I have seen no marine player using Stalker Bolt Rifles.
Oh boi c'mon down to where I play and lose all your sorcerers with a QUICKNESS lol.
Why ya'll comparing stalker dmg to Rubricae? They only get shot at when our sorcs die
I don't think Intercessors with stalker bolt rifles can shot characters? It's just the free bolter replacement 36" Heavy 1 S4 -2 D2, unless there's some RG shenanigan that turns basic troops into snipers that I don't remember
The way GW is doing rules releases is quite possibly the worst it’s ever been. They have to get rid of the physical book restrictions on consolidating/upgrading rules as I am not convinced we will see a round 2 of books (and the cycle just starts anew anyway).
Even after last years chapter approved we still had unique rules in chapter approved 2017 for gsc. It’s insane.
Even after last years chapter approved we still had unique rules in chapter approved 2017 for gsc. It’s insane.
I'm pretty sure they're considered to be superseded in the same way that the new marine codex replaces the old version. 3/4 of the GSCCA rules are identical to the codex, and they re-used the stratagem name of the 4th with a similar effect.
That’s why I mentioned last years and 2017s. Not this years chapter approved. It was before they got a codex and were the only army with rules in both chapter approved 2018 and 2017.
deTox91 wrote: Given that nobody but Marines is getting any passive army wide buff and "spend 2 CP to give this forever aura to this character" type of things, it's literally impossible that TS will get anything broken, you could print the strongest stratagem in the history of WH40k and still a one off trick would never compare to 5/6 passive game long effects sadly.
The Flesh Change (2 CP): Replace all enemy ADEPTUS ASTARTES models with Rubric Marines (pg. 9).
*spawn.
Also, the great rubricae, all spawn get replaced with rubric marines under the casters controll.
We all know the first strat would only work I they were TS Loyalists Chapters. So need a <Keyword> for some random SM chapter for it to work.
Then, for Great Rubric, you have to roll a d6 for each spawn. 1, it just dies. 2-5 it becomes a Rubric Marine, and on a 6 it becomes a Sorceror.
So GW just previewed "Malecious volleys" on their facebook as part of RotD. This bodes poorly for the TS if the rules GW chose to previwe was the one we've had for months already -.-
VladimirHerzog wrote: So GW just previewed "Malecious volleys" on their facebook as part of RotD. This bodes poorly for the TS if the rules GW chose to previwe was the one we've had for months already -.-
Jokes on you, this is a sneaky preview for Rubikes, the new Thousand Sons BIKER keyword unit!
....or it's a super, super, impossibly lazy copy-paste copy-pasted into a rules preview by someone who hasn't played the game in ages and picked a random rule to preview.
PiñaColada wrote: Rubikes? Seems we've finally found the foil to the leaked SM nu-bikes!
my dog that works for gw said they were like sweet centaurs but with rubric marines as the torso and a bike as the body. And they've got twin warp bolters for arms.
PiñaColada wrote: Rubikes? Seems we've finally found the foil to the leaked SM nu-bikes!
my dog that works for gw said they were like sweet centaurs but with rubric marines as the torso and a bike as the body. And they've got twin warp bolters for arms.
Great, now you have gone and made it so I actually kind of want to see this happen
Well somebody at GW is really having fun #TSDontDeserveNiceThings
Edit: I stand partially corrected, the start they previewed now is not bad, 1CP rubric or SoT shoot twice if they didn’t move, a 10 man SoT squad suddenly is becoming appealing
To be fair, now they're showing an "Infernal Fusillade" strat which is real good. 1CP shoot twice with RF weapons using a rubric or SOT unit if they stood still
Ahriman21 wrote: I have seen no marine player using Stalker Bolt Rifles.
Oh boi c'mon down to where I play and lose all your sorcerers with a QUICKNESS lol.
Why ya'll comparing stalker dmg to Rubricae? They only get shot at when our sorcs die
I don't think Intercessors with stalker bolt rifles can shot characters? It's just the free bolter replacement 36" Heavy 1 S4 -2 D2, unless there's some RG shenanigan that turns basic troops into snipers that I don't remember
Its a generic strat
Target Sighted (3 CP): At the start of the shooting phase, pick a squad of INTERCESSORS. Until the end of the phase, that squad's stalker bolt rifles gain the ability to snipe Characters and cause mortal wounds on a wound roll of 6+
I just want DG to have access to some of the new CSM units.
Disco lords and venom crawlers. The giant ticks scream nurgle (and no, i don't want to have to take a detachment of non-DG) even if pure DG is considered crap.
It's actually a really good strat and I'm guessing several people are going to try out max sized squads of rubricae or even SOT now (big blobs of SOT are also a decent target for that healing spell)
PiñaColada wrote: To be fair, now they're showing an "Infernal Fusillade" strat which is real good. 1CP shoot twice with RF weapons using a rubric or SOT unit if they stood still
That's fairly spicy combined with the telemeport strat they also previewed.
Nothing screams "8th edition 40k" like winning the roll for first turn so you get to spend 2cp to teleport your rubrics up, shoot as if you were 1" away, and then shoot again.
Yep, that right there is a power boost for sure. A really fething obnoxious power boost.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PiñaColada wrote: It's actually a really good strat and I'm guessing several people are going to try out max sized squads of rubricae or even SOT now (big blobs of SOT are also a decent target for that healing spell)
Tougher to get SoTs that didn't move tho. Rubrics have that baked in with the dedeploy strat if you go first. Shoot twice for 1cp isn't nearly as bonkers if it's turn 3 on a squad of SoTs.
It's real powerful but it's also boosting rubricae and SOT so if it means we start seeing more thousand sons armies and fewer of their characters just sprinkled into supreme command detachments then I'm all for it
Edit: Yeah SOT are more difficult to use the strat with on their first turn obviously but if you plonk them down in cover on an objective then they might actually feel pretty useful (since their CC is pretty gak anyways, they might as well just stand still and fire)
PiñaColada wrote: It's real powerful but it's also boosting rubricae and SOT so if it means we start seeing more thousand sons armies and fewer of their characters just sprinkled into supreme command detachments then I'm all for it
Edit: Yeah SOT are more difficult to use the strat with on their first turn obviously but if you plonk them down in cover on an objective then they might actually feel pretty useful (since their CC is pretty gak anyways, they might as well just stand still and fire)
Yeah, any boost that only benefits rubrics is nice in my book. I just dislike how my Thousand Sons army is 100% the army with the biggest gulf between its "won first turn" and "lost first turn" performance - and this is yet another strat combo that works a billion times better if you go first than not.
mostly the problem is with units highly dependent on psychic buffs. A strat that lets you start the game with a power up if you go second would be amazing for the health of tsons armies.
That's fairly spicy combined with the telemeport strat they also previewed.
Nothing screams "8th edition 40k" like winning the roll for first turn so you get to spend 2cp to teleport your rubrics up, shoot as if you were 1" away, and then shoot again.
Yep, that right there is a power boost for sure. A really fething obnoxious power boost.
Agreed.
I dislike that certain factions get abilities that simply break the core rules of the game. The most obnoxious recently for me are; "deploy closer than 9 brooo" and "deploy on turn 1 man, tacticz".
I also dislike it when certain factions have literally no answer to these obnoxious combos. Makes for a pretty boring game when I have to sit and watch my opponent do cool things and I just remove models. It'd be nice if GW added a bit of back and forth to every faction. There needs to be some consolidation of the stratagems and allowance for counter-play IMO.
That's fairly spicy combined with the telemeport strat they also previewed.
Nothing screams "8th edition 40k" like winning the roll for first turn so you get to spend 2cp to teleport your rubrics up, shoot as if you were 1" away, and then shoot again.
Yep, that right there is a power boost for sure. A really fething obnoxious power boost.
Agreed.
I dislike that certain factions get abilities that simply break the core rules of the game. The most obnoxious recently for me are; "deploy closer than 9 brooo" and "deploy on turn 1 man, tacticz".
I also dislike it when certain factions have literally no answer to these obnoxious combos. Makes for a pretty boring game when I have to sit and watch my opponent do cool things and I just remove models. It'd be nice if GW added a bit of back and forth to every faction. There needs to be some consolidation of the stratagems and allowance for counter-play IMO.
playing against marins with more unit deployed outside their deployment than in it feels awesome , what do you mean? Even better if the marine player has the audacity to complain that my elves have invulnerable saves and -1 to hit
In my defense I wasn't declaring strong feelings so much as confessing to my colossal ignorance. So Grey Knights have Chaplains in 8th? What's the fluff on that? Does anyone take them?
That's fairly spicy combined with the telemeport strat they also previewed.
Nothing screams "8th edition 40k" like winning the roll for first turn so you get to spend 2cp to teleport your rubrics up, shoot as if you were 1" away, and then shoot again.
Yep, that right there is a power boost for sure. A really fething obnoxious power boost.
Agreed.
I dislike that certain factions get abilities that simply break the core rules of the game. The most obnoxious recently for me are; "deploy closer than 9 brooo" and "deploy on turn 1 man, tacticz".
I also dislike it when certain factions have literally no answer to these obnoxious combos. Makes for a pretty boring game when I have to sit and watch my opponent do cool things and I just remove models. It'd be nice if GW added a bit of back and forth to every faction. There needs to be some consolidation of the stratagems and allowance for counter-play IMO.
I mean, tbf, none of those break core rules of the game. There's nothing in the core rules that says Over 9", it's just what GW had been (mostly) limiting factions to. And there have been situations that worked out like that previously but in your favor - like when they culled all turn 1 deep strike from the game EXCEPT for da jump (and I think there were like 2 more powers that worked like that or something)
But there are way too many things like that at this point. I feel like I need to employ some kind of massive turn 1 casualty reducing rule, just to force some kind of maneuver or something before we start removing models by the bucket load.
Fog of War: All shooting attacks declared in the first battle round suffer -2 to hit. All charge rolls made during the first turn subtract -2 from the result.
That's fairly spicy combined with the telemeport strat they also previewed.
Nothing screams "8th edition 40k" like winning the roll for first turn so you get to spend 2cp to teleport your rubrics up, shoot as if you were 1" away, and then shoot again.
Yep, that right there is a power boost for sure. A really fething obnoxious power boost.
Agreed.
I dislike that certain factions get abilities that simply break the core rules of the game. The most obnoxious recently for me are; "deploy closer than 9 brooo" and "deploy on turn 1 man, tacticz".
I also dislike it when certain factions have literally no answer to these obnoxious combos. Makes for a pretty boring game when I have to sit and watch my opponent do cool things and I just remove models. It'd be nice if GW added a bit of back and forth to every faction. There needs to be some consolidation of the stratagems and allowance for counter-play IMO.
I mean, tbf, none of those break core rules of the game. There's nothing in the core rules that says Over 9", it's just what GW had been (mostly) limiting factions to. And there have been situations that worked out like that previously but in your favor - like when they culled all turn 1 deep strike from the game EXCEPT for da jump (and I think there were like 2 more powers that worked like that or something)
But there are way too many things like that at this point. I feel like I need to employ some kind of massive turn 1 casualty reducing rule, just to force some kind of maneuver or something before we start removing models by the bucket load.
Fog of War: All shooting attacks declared in the first battle round suffer -2 to hit. All charge rolls made during the first turn subtract -2 from the result.
I like the sentiment, but given that space marines can just reroll everything without any cosideration to modifiers, unlike every other faction in the game, that would actually just make them better.
Maybe it should just be that weapon ranges are halved during T1? And then curb down a bit on abilities that are basically guaranteed T1 charges and tougher restrictions on amount of "scout move" type deployment
That's fairly spicy combined with the telemeport strat they also previewed.
Nothing screams "8th edition 40k" like winning the roll for first turn so you get to spend 2cp to teleport your rubrics up, shoot as if you were 1" away, and then shoot again.
Yep, that right there is a power boost for sure. A really fething obnoxious power boost.
Agreed.
I dislike that certain factions get abilities that simply break the core rules of the game. The most obnoxious recently for me are; "deploy closer than 9 brooo" and "deploy on turn 1 man, tacticz".
I also dislike it when certain factions have literally no answer to these obnoxious combos. Makes for a pretty boring game when I have to sit and watch my opponent do cool things and I just remove models. It'd be nice if GW added a bit of back and forth to every faction. There needs to be some consolidation of the stratagems and allowance for counter-play IMO.
I mean, tbf, none of those break core rules of the game. There's nothing in the core rules that says Over 9", it's just what GW had been (mostly) limiting factions to. And there have been situations that worked out like that previously but in your favor - like when they culled all turn 1 deep strike from the game EXCEPT for da jump (and I think there were like 2 more powers that worked like that or something)
But there are way too many things like that at this point. I feel like I need to employ some kind of massive turn 1 casualty reducing rule, just to force some kind of maneuver or something before we start removing models by the bucket load.
Fog of War: All shooting attacks declared in the first battle round suffer -2 to hit. All charge rolls made during the first turn subtract -2 from the result.
Yeah bring back the option for night fighting. (My support of this has nothing to do with my playing Night Lords).
PiñaColada wrote: To be fair, now they're showing an "Infernal Fusillade" strat which is real good. 1CP shoot twice with RF weapons using a rubric or SOT unit if they stood still
feth, yes. And what's even better? Not part of a cult so our options for more stuff is expanded.
PiñaColada wrote: To be fair, now they're showing an "Infernal Fusillade" strat which is real good. 1CP shoot twice with RF weapons using a rubric or SOT unit if they stood still
That's fairly spicy combined with the telemeport strat they also previewed.
Nothing screams "8th edition 40k" like winning the roll for first turn so you get to spend 2cp to teleport your rubrics up, shoot as if you were 1" away, and then shoot again.
Yep, that right there is a power boost for sure. A really fething obnoxious power boost.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PiñaColada wrote: It's actually a really good strat and I'm guessing several people are going to try out max sized squads of rubricae or even SOT now (big blobs of SOT are also a decent target for that healing spell)
Tougher to get SoTs that didn't move tho. Rubrics have that baked in with the dedeploy strat if you go first. Shoot twice for 1cp isn't nearly as bonkers if it's turn 3 on a squad of SoTs.
Err, well, I guess. They're going to be unsupported with rerolls unless you can warptime a flying caster. 78 IB shots kills a lot, but nowhere near its points. Then you'll lose 1/4 your army next turn.
That's fairly spicy combined with the telemeport strat they also previewed.
Nothing screams "8th edition 40k" like winning the roll for first turn so you get to spend 2cp to teleport your rubrics up, shoot as if you were 1" away, and then shoot again.
Yep, that right there is a power boost for sure. A really fething obnoxious power boost.
Agreed.
I dislike that certain factions get abilities that simply break the core rules of the game. The most obnoxious recently for me are; "deploy closer than 9 brooo" and "deploy on turn 1 man, tacticz".
I also dislike it when certain factions have literally no answer to these obnoxious combos. Makes for a pretty boring game when I have to sit and watch my opponent do cool things and I just remove models. It'd be nice if GW added a bit of back and forth to every faction. There needs to be some consolidation of the stratagems and allowance for counter-play IMO.
I mean, tbf, none of those break core rules of the game. There's nothing in the core rules that says Over 9", it's just what GW had been (mostly) limiting factions to. And there have been situations that worked out like that previously but in your favor - like when they culled all turn 1 deep strike from the game EXCEPT for da jump (and I think there were like 2 more powers that worked like that or something)
But there are way too many things like that at this point. I feel like I need to employ some kind of massive turn 1 casualty reducing rule, just to force some kind of maneuver or something before we start removing models by the bucket load.
Fog of War: All shooting attacks declared in the first battle round suffer -2 to hit. All charge rolls made during the first turn subtract -2 from the result.
I like the sentiment, but given that space marines can just reroll everything without any cosideration to modifiers, unlike every other faction in the game, that would actually just make them better.
I believe BA, even after PA3, do not have that rule and still reroll failed hitroll. So only codex SM chapter masters can reroll all rolls. This makes me think that GW has understood that giving full reroll to SM is just a bad design.
Dynas wrote: So Dark Angels can get 6" charges now. Gotta love how GW nerfs the charge from DS then gives it back to SM. Meanwhile Tyranids are stuck with the at best 8" charge with reroll.
I kinda understand your point, but the 6" charges is not open to dark angels but only to deathwing, meaning only to terminator. This makes a big difference since DW units are too expensive for what they do.
PiñaColada wrote: To be fair, now they're showing an "Infernal Fusillade" strat which is real good. 1CP shoot twice with RF weapons using a rubric or SOT unit if they stood still
feth, yes. And what's even better? Not part of a cult so our options for more stuff is expanded.
PiñaColada wrote: To be fair, now they're showing an "Infernal Fusillade" strat which is real good. 1CP shoot twice with RF weapons using a rubric or SOT unit if they stood still
That's fairly spicy combined with the telemeport strat they also previewed.
Nothing screams "8th edition 40k" like winning the roll for first turn so you get to spend 2cp to teleport your rubrics up, shoot as if you were 1" away, and then shoot again.
Yep, that right there is a power boost for sure. A really fething obnoxious power boost.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PiñaColada wrote: It's actually a really good strat and I'm guessing several people are going to try out max sized squads of rubricae or even SOT now (big blobs of SOT are also a decent target for that healing spell)
Tougher to get SoTs that didn't move tho. Rubrics have that baked in with the dedeploy strat if you go first. Shoot twice for 1cp isn't nearly as bonkers if it's turn 3 on a squad of SoTs.
Err, well, I guess. They're going to be unsupported with rerolls unless you can warptime a flying caster. 78 IB shots kills a lot, but nowhere near its points. Then you'll lose 1/4 your army next turn.
Do you really figure theyd be far up? I figure at max ill be like 10" from my DZ. If I dont have a daemon prince (AND ILL HAVE ONE) ill just advance an esorc.
And probably drop prescience. Heck, maybe votlw, but probably not.
And I wont be buying a 20 man squad to try and pull this off, ill just have the 10 man squad I would already. If I win first turn they get to jump right into an advantageous spot and double shoot some nerds turn 1.
Particularlt if its a unit my opponent thinks is reasonably in the backfield and I can reach out and boop them like some hellblasters or aggressors or something that could be nasty.
That's fairly spicy combined with the telemeport strat they also previewed.
Nothing screams "8th edition 40k" like winning the roll for first turn so you get to spend 2cp to teleport your rubrics up, shoot as if you were 1" away, and then shoot again.
Yep, that right there is a power boost for sure. A really fething obnoxious power boost.
Agreed.
I dislike that certain factions get abilities that simply break the core rules of the game. The most obnoxious recently for me are; "deploy closer than 9 brooo" and "deploy on turn 1 man, tacticz".
I also dislike it when certain factions have literally no answer to these obnoxious combos. Makes for a pretty boring game when I have to sit and watch my opponent do cool things and I just remove models. It'd be nice if GW added a bit of back and forth to every faction. There needs to be some consolidation of the stratagems and allowance for counter-play IMO.
I mean, tbf, none of those break core rules of the game. There's nothing in the core rules that says Over 9", it's just what GW had been (mostly) limiting factions to. And there have been situations that worked out like that previously but in your favor - like when they culled all turn 1 deep strike from the game EXCEPT for da jump (and I think there were like 2 more powers that worked like that or something)
But there are way too many things like that at this point. I feel like I need to employ some kind of massive turn 1 casualty reducing rule, just to force some kind of maneuver or something before we start removing models by the bucket load.
Fog of War: All shooting attacks declared in the first battle round suffer -2 to hit. All charge rolls made during the first turn subtract -2 from the result.
Are there any factions other than GSC that can deploy closer than 9"?
I thought being all sneaky was supposed to be their 'thing'?
Apparently 8ft superhumans in tank-like armour are sneakier than bald civilians with a little purple tinge. I mean, there's a literal dreadnaught chassis type machine that is apparently so quiet, so damn sly it can sneak up on you. How?!
I just don't get it. It feels like one faction can do everything the others are known for but better. To the point where GW are now breaking their own self imposed restrictions (no DS within 9" for example) to better serve this faction.
I can see it now. There'll be a new Chapter, the 'Hungry Bois', known for a hunger more ravenous than Tyranids. They consume even daemons and Necrons. Their doctrine 'everlasting hunger' gives them full charge rerolls, +2 attacks in combat and the ability to move again via stratagem and psychic power after deep striking. The 'Ooligan' Chapter - known for their love of combat and lack of manners will have a doctrine that gives them squads of 30 man units, +3" to all movement, advance and charge rolls and complete moral immunity.
Pre SM codex v2 chapter masters used to have "reroll all failed hit roll" and with the SM v2 they got "reroll hit roll", except for BA chapter masters.
The not-scout Marines with no DS bubble effectively took an ability on one Cult character and made it part of a troop choice for marines.
On top of that, they also get a Strategem to shoot at DS units, can DS turn 1 (where as the clever wording of a Strategem allowed GSC to do it before, now faq'd), and can place units up the boards, instead of giving them a scout move.
Seems like they've effectively done everything GSC do better. Except Rocksaws..... Just wait.
Anyway, the TS stuff looks alright, if not a bit disappointing overall. I kind of wish there was more to see confirmed. I hope it's not like with the BoB stuff where they showed off the worst stuff for Tyranids.
Pre SM codex v2 chapter masters used to have "reroll all failed hit roll" and with the SM v2 they got "reroll hit roll", except for BA chapter masters.
Back to the stupidity of having the same units in way too many different codexes for GW to bother keeping track.
Pre SM codex v2 chapter masters used to have "reroll all failed hit roll" and with the SM v2 they got "reroll hit roll", except for BA chapter masters.
IIRC the difference is that the old one didn't allow you to reroll if your profile says you hit on 3+ and your dice land a 3, but the enemy has a rule giving you -1 to hit, right? Else I can't really see the difference, except if you want to farm for 6 for a special rule maybe?
IIRC the difference is that the old one didn't allow you to reroll if your profile says you hit on 3+ and your dice land a 3, but the enemy has a rule giving you -1 to hit, right?
Else I can't really see the difference, except if you want to farm for 6 for a special rule maybe?
It was explained to me (and i may be getting this wrong) that the difference is that in situations of - to hit, the all rolls includes the numbers that fail to hit by the - to hit number exactly. because in the rules a hit that would miss due to the minus doesn't count as a failed hit roll. thus scenarios when -1 or even minus 2 can happen, they get a cleaner shot than other armies... nevermind the fact not every army can get such a sweeping reroll in general on the "failed" hit scale.
That's fairly spicy combined with the telemeport strat they also previewed.
Nothing screams "8th edition 40k" like winning the roll for first turn so you get to spend 2cp to teleport your rubrics up, shoot as if you were 1" away, and then shoot again.
Yep, that right there is a power boost for sure. A really fething obnoxious power boost.
Agreed.
I dislike that certain factions get abilities that simply break the core rules of the game. The most obnoxious recently for me are; "deploy closer than 9 brooo" and "deploy on turn 1 man, tacticz".
I also dislike it when certain factions have literally no answer to these obnoxious combos. Makes for a pretty boring game when I have to sit and watch my opponent do cool things and I just remove models. It'd be nice if GW added a bit of back and forth to every faction. There needs to be some consolidation of the stratagems and allowance for counter-play IMO.
I mean, tbf, none of those break core rules of the game. There's nothing in the core rules that says Over 9", it's just what GW had been (mostly) limiting factions to. And there have been situations that worked out like that previously but in your favor - like when they culled all turn 1 deep strike from the game EXCEPT for da jump (and I think there were like 2 more powers that worked like that or something)
But there are way too many things like that at this point. I feel like I need to employ some kind of massive turn 1 casualty reducing rule, just to force some kind of maneuver or something before we start removing models by the bucket load.
Fog of War: All shooting attacks declared in the first battle round suffer -2 to hit. All charge rolls made during the first turn subtract -2 from the result.
Are there any factions other than GSC that can deploy closer than 9"?
I thought being all sneaky was supposed to be their 'thing'?
Apparently 8ft superhumans in tank-like armour are sneakier than bald civilians with a little purple tinge. I mean, there's a literal dreadnaught chassis type machine that is apparently so quiet, so damn sly it can sneak up on you. How?!
I just don't get it. It feels like one faction can do everything the others are known for but better. To the point where GW are now breaking their own self imposed restrictions (no DS within 9" for example) to better serve this faction.
I can see it now. There'll be a new Chapter, the 'Hungry Bois', known for a hunger more ravenous than Tyranids. They consume even daemons and Necrons. Their doctrine 'everlasting hunger' gives them full charge rerolls, +2 attacks in combat and the ability to move again via stratagem and psychic power after deep striking. The 'Ooligan' Chapter - known for their love of combat and lack of manners will have a doctrine that gives them squads of 30 man units, +3" to all movement, advance and charge rolls and complete moral immunity.
And despite being their own codex with their own units and identity you'll insist they're not really a seperate army. you'd have a lot better a time understanding 40k if you realized that as far as GW is concerned "if it has it's own codex, it is it's own faction"
Do you really figure theyd be far up? I figure at max ill be like 10" from my DZ. If I dont have a daemon prince (AND ILL HAVE ONE) ill just advance an esorc.
And probably drop prescience. Heck, maybe votlw, but probably not.
And I wont be buying a 20 man squad to try and pull this off, ill just have the 10 man squad I would already. If I win first turn they get to jump right into an advantageous spot and double shoot some nerds turn 1.
Particularlt if its a unit my opponent thinks is reasonably in the backfield and I can reach out and boop them like some hellblasters or aggressors or something that could be nasty.
No, I think you've got the right idea. I was just cautioning people running away with thoughts of some juggernaut gambit.
Even if it's just what they've previewed GKs are in a massively better place than they were, and any GK players who are complaining obviously haven't been playing too long. We've got spells, stratagems and relic to be announced.
Pre SM codex v2 chapter masters used to have "reroll all failed hit roll" and with the SM v2 they got "reroll hit roll", except for BA chapter masters.
IIRC the difference is that the old one didn't allow you to reroll if your profile says you hit on 3+ and your dice land a 3, but the enemy has a rule giving you -1 to hit, right?
Else I can't really see the difference, except if you want to farm for 6 for a special rule maybe?
Modifiers apply after all re-rolls. Previously if you hit on a 3+, re-roll failed hits only ever allowed you to re-roll 1's and 2's regardless of modifiers. Now you can re-roll those dice that you know will miss after the modifiers are applied, and has proven to be especially powerful against negative to hit modifiers and units with abilities that go off on 6's to hit, like Infiltrators who auto wound on 6's to hit.
Even if it's just what they've previewed GKs are in a massively better place than they were, and any GK players who are complaining obviously haven't been playing too long. We've got spells, stratagems and relic to be announced.
Oh I'm super happy with what we've seen for Thousand Sons! It's already boosts
buddha wrote: My only hope for DG is that we get access to Disco Lords.
I would drop that hope.
.
Agreed.
The one thing I really want to see DG get is Disgustingly Resilient on the 'generic' chaos models that are Death Guard (characters and whatnot). Its really ridiculous for a member of the legion to become easier to kill as they gain rank and power.
It'd be nice on the vehicles too. I get cultists not having it, but all the members of the Legion should have it.
If Death Guard gain access to Lords Discordant, then they'd be like the Chaos Lord and Sorcerer in the book - bog standard rules, no Disgustingly Resilient, all because there is a Lord Discordant miniature, but not a Death Guard Lord Discordant miniature.
I mean, tbf, none of those break core rules of the game. There's nothing in the core rules that says Over 9", it's just what GW had been (mostly) limiting factions to. And there have been situations that worked out like that previously but in your favor - like when they culled all turn 1 deep strike from the game EXCEPT for da jump (and I think there were like 2 more powers that worked like that or something)
There's huge differences between da jump and reserves that can come on t1 and units that can be deployed 9" from enemy dz before game starts. DUCY?
Nurglitch wrote: So Grey Knights have Chaplains in 8th? What's the fluff on that? Does anyone take them?
GK have had Chaplains since at least 2004, in the fluff. If GK Chaplains actually get 6 brand new Litanies and some of them improve either successful charge rate, survivability or increase AP shooting, then 1 Chaplain could be a near auto-include then.
Nurglitch wrote: So Grey Knights have Chaplains in 8th? What's the fluff on that? Does anyone take them?
GK have had Chaplains since at least 2004, in the fluff. If GK Chaplains actually get 6 brand new Litanies and some of them improve either successful charge rate, survivability or increase AP shooting, then 1 Chaplain could be a near auto-include then.
I DIIIID need a reason to buy that awesome terminator chappy mini
And despite being their own codex with their own units and identity you'll insist they're not really a seperate army. you'd have a lot better a time understanding 40k if you realized that as far as GW is concerned "if it has it's own codex, it is it's own faction"
That's completely irrelevant. My opinions on whether different coloured Marines should have their own codex or not factors no way into my point that you referenced. My point is that it's poor game design and awful narratively when a walking tank supersoldier is both literally in the game and narratively more sneaky than a faction of insidious humans known for being particularly sneaky. As I said - its also poor game design when they can counter all the sneaky shenanigans of GSC without effort or sacrifice.
Jidmah wrote: In previous edition, GK librarian were more powerful than regular librarians, more on the level of Tigurius or Farseers. Not every GK is a librarian.
I get that, it's just the whole "every Grey Knight is the equivalent of a Space Marine Librarian" shtick.
Jidmah wrote: In previous edition, GK librarian were more powerful than regular librarians, more on the level of Tigurius or Farseers. Not every GK is a librarian.
I get that, it's just the whole "every Grey Knight is the equivalent of a Space Marine Librarian" shtick.
they're not, keep in mind your average GK needs to work with an entire squad of battlebrothers to be as effective as a single libby
Squad psykers are (I would say) a degree lower than your average (in 7th it would have been "level 1") librarian.
All of the Grey Knights are psychic to a degree, but only the ones in roles of real prominence have "Substantial" singular power. It was addressed in the second Ahriman novel. The Apprentice to Ahriman was fighting 3 Grey Knights and said that their essence wasn't a 1-1 exchange for a Psyker. It was a gestalt from them being together which gave them their power.
So its interesting when addressing how the GK's work in comparison to Psykers of notable power.
Yeah. Even in normal Marine chapters there are different ranks (and assumed proficiencies / strengths) of Librarians, from basic Lexicaniums to Chief Librarians.
Also, the Librarius itself has a role in the chapter for communications, etc... and "normal" Grey Knights probably aren't doing day-to-day Librarius-work, despite being Psykers, just as normal Tactical Marines probably aren't doing the work of Lieutenants or some such, even though both Tac Marines and Lieutenants can shoot bolters. There is still a functional separation in the chapter.
Jidmah wrote: The fluff of Eldrad and Tigurius being equals has been around fora very long time though. I thought that Kairos would be above them though.
Comic book rules are most definitely in force here. Each character is exactly as powerful as the current story requires them to be.
Well tigurius is marine. Others non imperial npc. No surprise there
You don't see even a shred of irony repeating that NPC claim at every opportunity?
Presumably not, because typically on the internet the term "NPC" tends to mean a secondary, generally disposable character who isn't the focal point/protagonist of the narrative. It's only in the more fringe political corners where you see the definition altered to mean someone who is less of a human because they make statements that sound similar to common tropes.
I do wonder what the "official wording" of the deny test is going to be. "automatically passed" i assume means you just...deny the test, guaranteed, but it is slighly weird wording when you're talking about what's basically a roll-off rather than a test at a static goal.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Who this madman was who somehow had a full copy of the dark angel rules and was willing to risk the wrath of the GW secret police hitmen to bring us the rules days early but somehow did not have the GK and Tsons rules to leak, I don't know. Oh well, hopefully soon enough.
"Echoes of Awakening" is evidently the last fluff section in Ritual of the Damned.
I'd be more hyped, expecting something related to the Lion (which is still could be), but the whole event is "Psychic Awakening" so it could also be nothing.
We need to remember that the events of this campaign have all happened. They are events that have taken place previously in the fluff.
As we know the Lion isn't back in the most chronologically advanced fluff we should not expect his return (or any other Primarch that has not been mentioned in current fluff).
Based on that I think we'll not get a Primarch until either the end of it or until it has concluded. Perhaps the final book will be chronologically "new" events in the "present"? If not that then we'll have to wait for a new campaign for a new Primarch.
In terms of "big" lore characters we could see - Ghazzy has been rumoured and is big in Ork lore, The Silent King has been mentioned repeatedly and is a big deal for Necrons, Ragnar is expected for SW (though I'm not sure if he's been "Primarisified" according to current lore) - not sure who else is likely?
"Echoes of Awakening" is evidently the last fluff section in Ritual of the Damned.
I'd be more hyped, expecting something related to the Lion (which is still could be), but the whole event is "Psychic Awakening" so it could also be nothing.
I'm hopeful, I don't think we'll get a miniature for him anytime soon, but if he shows up at the end of the book and does something awesome (like beat up Magnus), I think that would make this a really fun PA. He then disappears we get to wonder what he is up to until a later supplement. It moves the DA story forward and adds some new aspects into the DA story which has gotten a bit stale and predictable.
the list isn't a "most powerful psykers ever" list, the list is "some of the community teams favorite psykers"
Or are people not allowed to like Ultramarines?
"Echoes of Awakening" is evidently the last fluff section in Ritual of the Damned.
I'd be more hyped, expecting something related to the Lion (which is still could be), but the whole event is "Psychic Awakening" so it could also be nothing.
I'm hopeful, I don't think we'll get a miniature for him anytime soon, but if he shows up at the end of the book and does something awesome (like beat up Magnus), I think that would make this a really fun PA. He then disappears we get to wonder what he is up to until a later supplement. It moves the DA story forward and adds some new aspects into the DA story which has gotten a bit stale and predictable.
Or get beaten up by Magnus.
... But Ofc i know you space marines always expect the win as granted, that's how mama GW thought you
So other than that
33 pages DA 10 pages GK 10 pages TS
An Actual Englishman wrote: We need to remember that the events of this campaign have all happened. They are events that have taken place previously in the fluff.
As we know the Lion isn't back in the most chronologically advanced fluff we should not expect his return (or any other Primarch that has not been mentioned in current fluff).
Based on that I think we'll not get a Primarch until either the end of it or until it has concluded. Perhaps the final book will be chronologically "new" events in the "present"? If not that then we'll have to wait for a new campaign for a new Primarch.
In terms of "big" lore characters we could see - Ghazzy has been rumoured and is big in Ork lore, The Silent King has been mentioned repeatedly and is a big deal for Necrons, Ragnar is expected for SW (though I'm not sure if he's been "Primarisified" according to current lore) - not sure who else is likely?
Big E is probably the only person confirmed to know the lion is still alive, so even if people saw the lion in action, it would be a leap to figure out he is still alive and this isn't some psychic manifestation. There is a lot of weird gak going on in the galaxy thanks to the citrix maledictum, like the emperors flaming sword cleaving the enemies of man. A psychic manifestation that takes the form of a dead primarch coming to assist his children in their hour of need would probably not even be the weirdest thing that happened on the planet of sorcerers.
Still, I'm fully convinced that I'm probably wrong, but it's fun to dream even if only for a day or two.
the list isn't a "most powerful psykers ever" list, the list is "some of the community teams favorite psykers"
Or are people not allowed to like Ultramarines?
No need for shade, read the rest of the thread - he admitted his mistake like 10 posts ago.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grimgold wrote: Big E is probably the only person confirmed to know the lion is still alive, so even if people saw the lion in action, it would be a leap to figure out he is still alive and this isn't some psychic manifestation. There is a lot of weird gak going on in the galaxy thanks to the citrix maledictum, like the emperors flaming sword cleaving the enemies of man. A psychic manifestation that takes the form of a dead primarch coming to assist his children in their hour of need would probably not even be the weirdest thing that happened on the planet of sorcerers.
Still, I'm fully convinced that I'm probably wrong, but it's fun to dream even if only for a day or two.
Lol I mean can you see it? Really? GW just like "Suckers, here's the L L L L L LIIIIIOOONNNNNNNN RAAWAWWWRRRR!!!" C'mon man. It ain't happening - not now at least.
E - Looks like TS get 5 Cults (assuming 1 per page) with a Relic, WL Trait and maybe 1 or 2 Psychic powers for each? 1 Page of stratagems, dayumm. #Magnusdidsomethingwrong
Or get beaten up by Magnus.
... But Ofc i know you space marines always expect the win as granted, that's how mama GW thought you
Magnus is a low tier primarch, he got beat by Russ, who in turn got beat by the Lion, so any outcome except for the lions victory would be surprising. Magnus is also a shard of his former self and got beat by Logan Grimnar, which sets the bar for beating Magnus pretty low.
Magnus is a low tier primarch, he got beat by Russ, who in turn got beat by the Lion.
Who in turn struggled against a half-marine.
A half marine chosen by all four gods of chaos in order to finish what horus had started, whom the lion could barely bring himself to fight because it was effectively his father figure.
Wait, why are there point values when CA 2019 just came out a few months ago?
And I liked GK better when their name stemmed from their armor color being smoked by the hellish fires they dared wade into, not the shiny knights-in-shining armor rewrite they got.
A half marine chosen by all four gods of chaos in order to finish what horus had started, whom the lion could barely bring himself to fight because it was effectively his father figure.
Sounds like an excuse. If chaos can boost marines to primarch levels CSM should be a tad better than they currently are!
Magnus is a low tier primarch, he got beat by Russ, who in turn got beat by the Lion.
Who in turn struggled against a half-marine.
I would point out that Luther was akin to Horus. If Horus got buffed enough by Chaos to take down the emperor then Luther could be bumped to handle the Lion.
"Echoes of Awakening" is evidently the last fluff section in Ritual of the Damned.
I'd be more hyped, expecting something related to the Lion (which is still could be), but the whole event is "Psychic Awakening" so it could also be nothing.
I'm hopeful, I don't think we'll get a miniature for him anytime soon, but if he shows up at the end of the book and does something awesome (like beat up Magnus), I think that would make this a really fun PA. He then disappears we get to wonder what he is up to until a later supplement. It moves the DA story forward and adds some new aspects into the DA story which has gotten a bit stale and predictable.
Or get beaten up by Magnus.
... But Ofc i know you space marines always expect the win as granted, that's how mama GW thought you
So other than that
33 pages DA 10 pages GK 10 pages TS
As expected
sure except examining the DA pages..
of those 33 pages
10 are the phobos stuff,
7 are updated datasheets for old units (stuff like the new hand weapon options for intercessors etc)
1 is the angels of death rule,
1 is the vanguard warlord traits
1 is the Obscuration Librarius Disipline
So once you get that out of the way it's 13 pages of new content, and of those 13 I think some of it is fluff.
I would point out that Luther was akin to Horus. If Horus got buffed enough by Chaos to take down the emperor then Luther could be bumped to handle the Lion.
Chaos really should this more often, they would have beaten the Imperium long time ago. Some random CSM gets level-boost and defeats Guilliman. And Imagine if they'd give that to Abaddon, he would be unstoppable!
"Echoes of Awakening" is evidently the last fluff section in Ritual of the Damned.
I'd be more hyped, expecting something related to the Lion (which is still could be), but the whole event is "Psychic Awakening" so it could also be nothing.
I'm hopeful, I don't think we'll get a miniature for him anytime soon, but if he shows up at the end of the book and does something awesome (like beat up Magnus), I think that would make this a really fun PA. He then disappears we get to wonder what he is up to until a later supplement. It moves the DA story forward and adds some new aspects into the DA story which has gotten a bit stale and predictable.
Or get beaten up by Magnus.
... But Ofc i know you space marines always expect the win as granted, that's how mama GW thought you
So other than that
33 pages DA 10 pages GK 10 pages TS
As expected
sure except examining the DA pages..
of those 33 pages
10 are the phobos stuff,
7 are updated datasheets for old units (stuff like the new hand weapon options for intercessors etc)
1 is the angels of death rule,
1 is the vanguard warlord traits
1 is the Obscuration Librarius Disipline
So once you get that out of the way it's 13 pages of new content, and of those 13 I think some of it is fluff.
I wish I got 7 pages of updated data sheets of old units, how's that's not new content, that literally would be more worth then the pages TS are getting right now
the whole primaris thing in my opinion...
