It is pretty astonishing that a company like this refuses to engage in social media directly, but relies on enthusiastic customers to run it for them and then doesn't even maintain a centralized control over the various outlets.
Stormonu wrote: I've been starting work on adapting the Robotech series to the flightpath system - used by X-Wing, Star Trek Attack Wing and D&D Attack Wing.
This is a very rough draft at the moment, with only some of the Macross (UEDF and Zents) and a bit of the Invid converted. I haven't attempted to do point costs yet, nor have I had a chance for playtesting. Any opinions on what I do have I'd appreciate, though.
Forgot to post about this... I also got the idea of doing something along these lines for my minis.
Now, today we've played the first game of the Heroes of the Aturi Cluster cooperative campaign, and it was so great that I'm thinking about mixing boh ideas... so thank you very much for this
Yeah, RRT, the Tom Reidy fiasco, All Quiet on the Martian Front and the AVP KS have turned me off from any more KS. Which is a shame, because I had such a good experience with Zombicide 2 & 3.
KS's attitude (both of them) have just shown me it's too much of risk to bother with; I'll just show a little patience and wait for retail anymore.
That's quite a tabletop list you've got there. Off the top of my head, you're just missing the ice age mammals and heroquest fiascos to round out the bunch.
Reidy is Defiance Games? So he backed the Defiance KS, or Torn Armor? Or both? Also, he could have backed Imbrian Arts (Jody Siegel) for yet another KS that keeps on failing to deliver.
I almost want to know what he backs so I can run away screaming.
Yep, Reidy was the man behind Defiance Games. There's strong evidence that the Power Armor Hardsuit KS was a fraud from the start, deliberately created to pay off other debts with no intention of producing anything.
He was also contracted to do the miniatures for Torn Armor (I contacted the person behind Torn Armor for information about Defiance Games, as the backers there were preparing to work with AG - alas, we were too late as two other companies he had contracted with sued him into bankruptcy). I'm not familiar with Imbrian Arts, but it may be that could have been the other company he cheated out of funds in promising miniatures.
Reidy and Sembedia should share a jail cell together, in my opinion.
You can say there was intentional fraud on this kickstarter. I recall reading something Kevin wrote to assure his fan friends this Robotech game wasn't going to take away from PB's RPG work, even saying the Kickstarter would help pay off debts/bills and make it possible to do more RPG stuff, or words to that effect. Think it was in a murmur. Do you have that, Forar? Sure would be nice to quote in an AG and FTC complaint.
Autarch wrote: You can say there was intentional fraud on this kickstarter. I recall reading something Kevin wrote to assure his fan friends this Robotech game wasn't going to take away from PB's RPG work, even saying the Kickstarter would help pay off debts/bills and make it possible to do more RPG stuff, or words to that effect. Think it was in a murmur. Do you have that, Forar? Sure would be nice to quote in an AG and FTC complaint.
I have it somewhere. Morgan's probably got it bookmarked.
Off the top of my head, they said something to the effect of 'RRT would allow PB to pay off debts, etc, etc'. A charitable reading of that was "if this is a success, we'll pull in a ton of cash with which to pay off debts and fund stuff". A less charitable reading was "we'll pay off debts and fund other stuff with this money".
Even as a jaded soul who has zero empathy or benefit of the doubt for PB, I always read the former from it. Outright stating "we're gonna steal from these people y'all" in a public release like that is just too cartoonishly stupid. Yes, they seem very self centered and prone to stepping on their di... wangs, as a friend often points out, but announcing an intent to cheat people out of cash leading up to the point at which they ask for cash is just that step too far for me.
Glancing through Google, the wayback machine doesn't seem to have the page archived, and they updated the original "Prepare For Invasion" page at least once with info from the KS, so the exact wording I'm thinking of isn't popping out. I'll see what else I can find. I recall what you're mentioning, but haven't easily found something to cut/paste (as is the Palladium way) just yet.
Though this might at least be closer to what we're thinking of:
Why should you care?
The Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Kickstarter helps Palladium to fund the launch of a compelling and expanding game line designed specifically for Robotech® fans and gamers.
Six months of product development has produced nearly two dozen gorgeous sculptures (with more to come), a mountain of artwork, and game rules that have been play-tested by more than 100 Robotech fans and gamers to ensure we make Robotech® RPG Tactics™ everything you could want.
Once the Kickstarter reaches our funding goal, we have a host of fantastic upgrades, additional game pieces and new unit add-ons to unlock! Every Destroid. More Zentraedi mecha. More fun!
And because so much is DONE, this project should go into manufacturing within 45 days after the Kickstarter! That’s fast.
Even as a jaded soul who has zero empathy or benefit of the doubt for PB, I always read the former from it. Outright stating "we're gonna steal from these people y'all" in a public release like that is just too cartoonishly stupid. Yes, they seem very self centered and prone to stepping on their di... wangs, as a friend often points out, but announcing an intent to cheat people out of cash leading up to the point at which they ask for cash is just that step too far for me.
well if they paid off their debts thinking they had a "winner" product not realizing it was not and they had no future sales, or they used the KS money to pay for all that stock they got and sold some and used the money from the sales to pay off their debts, the issue comes down to is, their priority should have been the backers, now they could set aside money for advertising and promotional material, but it should only be about 10% of the budget until all backers received product to be on the safe side of the law, up to 20% would be pushing it into the fraud territory.
Kevin did indeed mention using the RTTKS to launch new RPG material, as part of the build up.
From the man himself from the PB Upate Feb 2013
[quote}. Robotech® RPG Tactics™ gives us a chance to work with the wonderful talent pool at Ninja Division (the creative wizards of Soda Pop Miniatures and Cipher Studios). Again, you don’t pass up an opportunity to work with talent of this caliber.
3. The success of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ could be huge for Palladium Books as a company. A successful launch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is the final piece of the puzzle to make Palladium Books® strong again. A successful launch will enable us to eliminate debt and give Palladium the resources to hire more staff and more freelance talent and do so much more for ALL our game lines. I already have a dream team of creators lined up to bring on board. They can hardly wait. The excitement is electric.
Please be assured that Palladium is a role-playing game company, first and foremost. RPGs shall always remain our primary business. In fact, the success of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ will enable us to do more of the role-playing game releases you love. There is a reason I’ve been designing and writing role-playing games for 32 years: I love them more than anything. For business and marketing reasons, I cannot reveal to you our every plan months or years in advance. I can tell you we have big plans and dozens of RPG products in the pipeline and on the drawing board. Plans that I believe can carry role-playing to new heights and new markets. In fact, I have plans to do things with role-playing games others may have not yet considered. And that’s why we can’t talk about all our plans for new systems of play, RPG products and marketing ideas. They have to remain top secret until we have the resources to make them a reality. The release of a greater number of RPG books and bold new ventures like Robotech® RPG Tactics™ will enable us to make that happen.
See nothing has really changed after three years, still the same rainbow gushing from KS.
Points of interest
The way he talks up Ninja divsion
Even then he was stressing the "role playing" side of the business was where they were and always were at
Most damning is an open admission - which he will rewrite in the PB Ministry of Truth - that he saw the KS as an opportunity to eliminate PB's debts and indirectly fund other projects - perhaps that is why Northern Gun amongst others appeared so readily after the RTTKS funded?
I guess one good thing about this colossal cluster is that I've been able to go to a local store and buy extra expansion sets for $12-15 Canadian on a whim for the last 6 months. The stock hasn't changed except for what I've taken since they put it on clearance, so I've been in no rush.
I'll have tons of variety for my Horizon Wars games
Yes, that's the "eliminate debt" verbiage I was talking about.
The success of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ could be huge for Palladium Books as a company. A successful launch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is the final piece of the puzzle to make Palladium Books® strong again. A successful launch will enable us to eliminate debt and give Palladium the resources to hire more staff and more freelance talent and do so much more for ALL our game lines. I already have a dream team of creators lined up to bring on board. They can hardly wait. The excitement is electric.
A few times people have referenced it like a tacit admission that they were going to misappropriate funds.
Again, even as a vocal critic of, well, everything they do, that always struck me more as "if this project takes off we'll have the spare resources to fund more RRT stuff and other projects yay", rather than a mustache twirling "once I pilfer those funds..." kind of sentiment.
But that's just my read on it. I can see how others might feel otherwise, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.
Edit: also, as Morgan pointed out to me in passing, the big active thread in PB's RRT subforum is gone again. Oh noes, Jefffar, what have we done this time? Please send it back to us! (I thought about going with the Taken speech, but while funnier in my head, probably isn't worth going overboard and melodramatic with)
I assume they want to hide the bad news from the world because Gen Con is coming and they're hoping to unload some of those pallets of millstones around their neck.
I guess one good thing about this colossal cluster is that I've been able to go to a local store and buy extra expansion sets for $12-15 Canadian on a whim for the last 6 months. The stock hasn't changed except for what I've taken since they put it on clearance, so I've been in no rush.
I'll have tons of variety for my Horizon Wars games
My local store is extremely slow adding stuff to clearance. They have an unchanging stock of RTT, DUST Tactics, and even Starship Troopers, all taking up shelf space at full MSRP.
Merijeek wrote: I assume they want to hide the bad news from the world because Gen Con is coming and they're hoping to unload some of those pallets of millstones around their neck.
That's my assumption as well. They first start with the quarterly STFU, peasants! pre-gencon "update" that says absolutely nothing new and then houseclean all the negativity with a round of bannings/warnings/disappearing posts on social media they control. All we need now is the fluff piece interview with Gamer Goggles and the yearly cycle will be complete.
I guess one good thing about this colossal cluster is that I've been able to go to a local store and buy extra expansion sets for $12-15 Canadian on a whim for the last 6 months. The stock hasn't changed except for what I've taken since they put it on clearance, so I've been in no rush.
I'll have tons of variety for my Horizon Wars games
My local store is extremely slow adding stuff to clearance. They have an unchanging stock of RTT, DUST Tactics, and even Starship Troopers, all taking up shelf space at full MSRP.
Merijeek wrote: I assume they want to hide the bad news from the world because Gen Con is coming and they're hoping to unload some of those pallets of millstones around their neck.
That's my assumption as well. They first start with the quarterly STFU, peasants! pre-gencon "update" that says absolutely nothing new and then houseclean all the negativity with a round of bannings/warnings/disappearing posts on social media they control. All we need now is the fluff piece interview with Gamer Goggles and the yearly cycle will be complete.
Re the PBRTT thread - I had the last post and critised their meagre offering for RTT at Gencon. I speculate dtha the old demo tables from a couple of years ago might still be in use
Also more crtitisism comparing the hyperbole shown on the last couple of PBWU about two packs of playing cards as opposed to something they received $1.4 million for.
However, I did note that The "Red Duke" chipped in on the pld Strategicon thread to announce four games he is running at Gencon
Merijeek wrote: I assume they want to hide the bad news from the world because Gen Con is coming and they're hoping to unload some of those pallets of millstones around their neck.
That's my assumption as well. They first start with the quarterly STFU, peasants! pre-gencon "update" that says absolutely nothing new and then houseclean all the negativity with a round of bannings/warnings/disappearing posts on social media they control. All we need now is the fluff piece interview with Gamer Goggles and the yearly cycle will be complete.
That shows more forethought and caring than we've seen in the past.
Kevin isn't interested in social media and remains unaware of what goes on there.
Which leads to the enthusiastic fan volunteers, who don't know how to manage social media professionally, get no direction from the company and take it as a personal affront if you criticize what they love.
Such a poor way to manage image, which translates directly into dollars.
Well, back from vacation and looking at a bunch of minis and molding supplies.
I guess all that is left to us is showing our own wave 2 progress.
I keep forgetting that any VT based unit like the Super need 3 versions each.
I suppose I should be thankful Zents don't transform.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The people in Rifts-Savage Worlds seem to be pleasing the folks there. Actually getting stuff out sooner than scheduled with good reviews.
So this is what IP licensing looks like when PB is properly hands off.
Talizvar wrote: Well, back from vacation and looking at a bunch of minis and molding supplies.
I guess all that is left to us is showing our own wave 2 progress.
I keep forgetting that any VT based unit like the Super need 3 versions each.
I suppose I should be thankful Zents don't transform.
Exactly. No vacation for me, but I worked the other day in casting the super valks bits needed. I kept in mind that my friend wants 5 supervalks in the three modes, quite a lot of pieces xD
Here are the test castings:
Today I plan to cast all bits needed for 5 supervalks, hopefully everything goes right and I can post pics tomorrow
And, in other more joyful news: jj_b has put the Gnerls in FUD three packs, for $43.50 per pack.
Talizvar wrote: Well, back from vacation and looking at a bunch of minis and molding supplies.
I guess all that is left to us is showing our own wave 2 progress.
I keep forgetting that any VT based unit like the Super need 3 versions each.
I suppose I should be thankful Zents don't transform.
Exactly. No vacation for me, but I worked the other day in casting the super valks bits needed. I kept in mind that my friend wants 5 supervalks in the three modes, quite a lot of pieces xD
Here are the test castings:
reminds me I need to assemble my Super valk fighter mode, but also have some Spartans to finish.
I guess one good thing about this colossal cluster is that I've been able to go to a local store and buy extra expansion sets for $12-15 Canadian on a whim for the last 6 months. The stock hasn't changed except for what I've taken since they put it on clearance, so I've been in no rush.
I'll have tons of variety for my Horizon Wars games
My local store is extremely slow adding stuff to clearance. They have an unchanging stock of RTT, DUST Tactics, and even Starship Troopers, all taking up shelf space at full MSRP.
Wow.. so many of you at the same time... If I were a palladium deep cover spy (*wink*), I'd be harboring some suspicions that this was a group order of sorts and not all of you individually casting somehow identical parts for personal use in your geographically separated basements and garages. Either way, good looking stuff!
When one is banned from the PB forums and the Kickstarter comments... what else do we do for RRT?
Positive action toward having a pretty game to call our own.
In regards to the suspicion of all this work happening at once: certain pieces become available, then shipping happens, then a few days or weeks to pump out the work. They would happen also around summer time so the various nasty fumes can be handled outside.
Still have no viable Armored VT yet.
My model kung-fu is much hated by my friend's 3D printer.
Talizvar wrote: When one is banned from the PB forums and the Kickstarter comments... what else do we do for RRT?
Positive action toward having a pretty game to call our own.
In regards to the suspicion of all this work happening at once: certain pieces become available, then shipping happens, then a few days or weeks to pump out the work. They would happen also around summer time so the various nasty fumes can be handled outside.
Still have no viable Armored VT yet.
My model kung-fu is much hated by my friend's 3D printer.
well my Armored I was working on was not what I would call great, about same time I cancelled my 3D design program (expensive, but good)
I guess one good thing about this colossal cluster is that I've been able to go to a local store and buy extra expansion sets for $12-15 Canadian on a whim for the last 6 months. The stock hasn't changed except for what I've taken since they put it on clearance, so I've been in no rush.
My local store is extremely slow adding stuff to clearance. They have an unchanging stock of RTT, DUST Tactics, and even Starship Troopers, all taking up shelf space at full MSRP.
Brookhurst, War House, or both?
Brookhurst. Where is war house?
War House is on WIllow in Long Beach. It's the one that feels like you're in an old-timey adult bookstore, not one of the newer "couples-friendly" stores.
Brookhurst, I'll wait for Thanksgiving. First, if I'm still interested. Second, because everything goes on sale at that time. Last year, Brookhurst moved some RTT sets - there were more on the shelf when I arrived, than when I left!
Wait a minute. In that lawsuit facebook page I see NMI listed as a member. Since I doubt hes going to sue palladium I have to wonder what his intent is there.
evilsmurf wrote: Wait a minute. In that lawsuit facebook page I see NMI listed as a member. Since I doubt hes going to sue palladium I have to wonder what his intent is there.
evilsmurf wrote: Wait a minute. In that lawsuit facebook page I see NMI listed as a member. Since I doubt hes going to sue palladium I have to wonder what his intent is there.
To report the names back to Kevin?
Not necessary, the group page lists people's names as it is, no need to be a member.
Still, good job at maintaining privacy/security there, gents. :-P
While I agree that it is an odd inclusion, trying to exclude him would be relatively pointless. He could just sign up using a fake name like Donald R. Obama and whoever is in charge has no way of verifying that person is a backer.
evilsmurf wrote: Wait a minute. In that lawsuit facebook page I see NMI listed as a member. Since I doubt hes going to sue palladium I have to wonder what his intent is there.
evilsmurf wrote: Wait a minute. In that lawsuit facebook page I see NMI listed as a member. Since I doubt hes going to sue palladium I have to wonder what his intent is there.
The most obvious spy in the world.
I think he just has a driving need to be involved in all things Palladium.
He cannot help himself.
Plus, I bet Kevin holds NMI accountable for keeping him informed on all things "interwebs" especially people getting together to sue him.
as to why NMI is allowed in the lawsuit group? its simple he is a backer to exclude him would be unamerican, and maybe even against the law (debatable) but he is still a backer so is allowed to join. that and I am not NMI. I don't kick or ban people because they do not agree with me, that would be very petty of me.
Looks really good.
A much needed UEDF unit when all the Wave 2 "unseen" Zent. units come on-line.
as to why NMI is allowed in the lawsuit group? its simple he is a backer to exclude him would be unamerican, and maybe even against the law (debatable) but he is still a backer so is allowed to join.
Not "keep your friends close, your enemies even closer"?
Plus if you did not include him it would be a slippery slope of deciding on the irritating, the opinionated or the banned as well.
warboss wrote: While I agree that it is an odd inclusion, trying to exclude him would be relatively pointless. He could just sign up using a fake name like Donald R. Obama and whoever is in charge has no way of verifying that person is a backer.
Right, but the whole conceit about it being a closed group was to keep things private.
Letting a PB forum mod into said group, and without even making them jump through the hoops to create or borrow a believable alt account, is just silly.
Sure, group owners can let whomever they want in, but if the goal was to keep their objectives and efforts on the downlow, specifically from Palladium Books, this seems like failing at the first hurdle of "not let a friend of the company we're trying to sue into the group".
Or do we now need a second PB Lawsuit group to keep things out of the first group's line of sight?
warboss wrote: While I agree that it is an odd inclusion, trying to exclude him would be relatively pointless. He could just sign up using a fake name like Donald R. Obama and whoever is in charge has no way of verifying that person is a backer.
Right, but the whole conceit about it being a closed group was to keep things private.
Letting a PB forum mod into said group, and without even making them jump through the hoops to create or borrow a believable alt account, is just silly.
Sure, group owners can let whomever they want in, but if the goal was to keep their objectives and efforts on the downlow, specifically from Palladium Books, this seems like failing at the first hurdle of "not let a friend of the company we're trying to sue into the group".
Or do we now need a second PB Lawsuit group to keep things out of the first group's line of sight?
Groupception!
Assuming the group will produce any results like the last 20 times people tried to put a lawsuit together.
One thing that always bothered me with the Super is that since RRT used strict Main Body MDC for the conversions the Super takes the same amount as the normal VT. I added 3 points to mine for my own rules.
warboss wrote: While I agree that it is an odd inclusion, trying to exclude him would be relatively pointless. He could just sign up using a fake name like Donald R. Obama and whoever is in charge has no way of verifying that person is a backer.
Right, but the whole conceit about it being a closed group was to keep things private.
Letting a PB forum mod into said group, and without even making them jump through the hoops to create or borrow a believable alt account, is just silly.
If the reason for keeping the new group closed is the same Mike had for keeping the original group closed, it wasn't because he wanted to keep it private from the general gaming populace but rather from spamming his own feed (or whatever it's called) with little pew pew toy soldier cartoon robot posts that his acquaintances, coworkers, and even employers would see.
edit: the above assumes that mike is leading the second group as well.
warboss wrote: While I agree that it is an odd inclusion, trying to exclude him would be relatively pointless. He could just sign up using a fake name like Donald R. Obama and whoever is in charge has no way of verifying that person is a backer.
Right, but the whole conceit about it being a closed group was to keep things private.
Letting a PB forum mod into said group, and without even making them jump through the hoops to create or borrow a believable alt account, is just silly.
Sure, group owners can let whomever they want in, but if the goal was to keep their objectives and efforts on the downlow, specifically from Palladium Books, this seems like failing at the first hurdle of "not let a friend of the company we're trying to sue into the group".
Or do we now need a second PB Lawsuit group to keep things out of the first group's line of sight?
Groupception!
guess you missed my earlier post, he was allowed in because he is a backer, plain and simple, all backers, regardless of who they are are allowed to join, if he is there to spy on us, he is sorely disappointed me thinks.
Merijeek wrote: Honestly, it's not like you were going to keep him out in any way, so I agree there was no point even if you weren't trying to make it...egalitarian.
However, making it a closed group still seems kind of silly to me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How about:
Simbieda Our Own Nincompoop(tm)?
well made the group open to the public but not sure how that makes a difference.
the reason it was closed is it would have those serious about the lawsuit join now there is no impetus to join and we are unable to make an accurate guess of how many are serious about joining.
Edit: due to requests have decided to make it a poll in the group since many want it closed.
I'm having an interesting talk with Kickstarter right now. Can you repost your running count please?
RRT: By The Numbers
Funded: May 20th, 2013: 1,171 days ago (3y, 2m, 14d)
Allegedly supposed to start manufacturing: early July 2013: 1,156 days ago (~3y, 0m, 30d)
Pledge manager begins: July 18th, 2013: 1,112 days ago (3y, 0m, 16d)
Pledge manager ends: September 9th, 2013: 1,059 days ago (2y, 10m, 25d). Note: as per this comment on Sept 6th, their target for FULL delivery (no waves) was still December. Again: made while still taking PM money.
Target Delivery Date: December 2013: 946 days ago (2y, 7m, 3d from the 31st, which feels awfully generous/understanding)
2 Waves announced: January 30th, 2014: 916 days ago (2y, 6m, 4d)
Wave 1 begins Manufacturing: June 12th, 2014: 783 days ago (2y, 1m, 22d), missed their original target by nearly a full year.
*Shipping allegedly begins (core boxes only, no Battle Cry tiers): August 28th, 2014: 706 days ago (1y, 11m, 6d)
*Substantial shipping actually begins (North America): October 3rd, 2014: 670 days ago (1y, 10m, 0d)
*European/Australian shipping begins: Mid January, 2015: 560 days ago (1y, 6m, 13d)
Last Wave 2 sprue breakdown renders: February 28th, 2015: 522 days ago (1y, 5m, 6d)
*ROW Shipping allegedly complete (wth?): May 13th, 2015: 448 days ago (1y, 2m, 21d). Note; a few days later was the Palladium Books Open House, during which Kevin stated that they were aiming to deliver wave two by the end of the year.
Shoddy pic of partial SDF prototype: March 3rd, 2016: 153 days ago (5m). Better pics provided 22 days later.
YF-4, Armored Battloid 3D Prints shown off: April 14th, 2016: 111 days ago (3m, 20d)
This obviously scratches the surface. I skipped the bullgak polls (Gencon sales, Scale misdirection), but noted with asterisks the shenanigans that were them taking from late August 2014 to mid May 2015 to deliver wave one. Also worth pointing out is how they took 3-4 months to go from Production of wave 1 to Substantial Delivery beginning, and yet have barely anything else to show for the nearly 26 months since said wave went into production (yes, there may have been other things to work on and sort out, but once 1 was at least done enough for factories to begin making it, surely some efforts might start going towards wave 2).
Further time could have been lost in having Kevin/Wayne/others working on packaging and shipping, but that argument loses some power when considering that according to Ninja Division, the 3D models were done and handed over in late 2014. PB continues to claim that work is vaguely being done with almost every weekly news letter, but has had a noted reduction in updates over the years, and word from Chuck Walton (whom I have spoken to by calling the PB offices directly, so even if he's not on the official payroll, clearly he's not just some dude hanging around) has allegedly been that delivery will not happen in 2016, meaning we can pretty safely add 5 months to those values above and still not have delivery.
I'm sure there's more to add, but this was built off looking over the updates and applying my usual date calculator to the differences. Give or take a few hours (perhaps a day) they should be generally accurate up to today, August 3rd, 2016.
And obviously, unless they begin production by early 2017, they risk running afoul of Chinese New Year, pushing a potential delivery back to mid 2017 or later (or never, but that's a reality of production/delivery that is well known and lamented).
Giving us a rough guideline of 4 years possibly not being enough to deliver on a project that allegedly was going to take 7 months (and they were confident enough to state might deliver in 6 or even 5).
And as we know, they've been refusing refunds since the beginning, giving backers no manner of getting out of this mess short of selling their pledge to someone else (and I think it's a safe bet that'd be a tough sell at best, given wave 2's status as vapourware).
Alpharius wrote: Wasn't there a lawsuit out there that was going to be a slam dunk but then suddenly disappeared/got settled/faded away?
Maybe it was that one?
well right now a bunch of backers are organizing against PB, question is, is it too late? will PB be brought to task or ?
Still waiting on the organizing part. If that was the case there would be someone or a few someones taking charge. Nobody seems to want that role. It's more like another place to voice discontent right now. Until someone takes a definitive stand......
Alpharius wrote: Wasn't there a lawsuit out there that was going to be a slam dunk but then suddenly disappeared/got settled/faded away?
Maybe it was that one?
I do recall someone was doing something back in January, after a protracted online campaign of threats, which was slated to destroy Palladium Books as a company.
I wonder what happened to that guy and his tidal wave of destruction.
Alpharius wrote: Wasn't there a lawsuit out there that was going to be a slam dunk but then suddenly disappeared/got settled/faded away?
Maybe it was that one?
I do recall someone was doing something back in January, after a protracted online campaign of threats, which was slated to destroy Palladium Books as a company.
I wonder what happened to that guy and his tidal wave of destruction.
Yeah, my lawyer for that case said he was more likely he could get more money out of the lemonaide stand down the road than from Kevin & Co., so I decided to drop it until I had a stronger case - or fresher lemons.
Alpharius wrote: Wasn't there a lawsuit out there that was going to be a slam dunk but then suddenly disappeared/got settled/faded away?
Maybe it was that one?
I do recall someone was doing something back in January, after a protracted online campaign of threats, which was slated to destroy Palladium Books as a company.
I wonder what happened to that guy and his tidal wave of destruction.
N815e: Edward!!!!
Love the avatar.
On the matter at hand, I think that was why I was not really bothering with the Facebook page.
I should go look and see what the "plan" is.
Usually what a lawyer would look for as being "sufficient" before they decide to have a go.
I am not opposed to exploring legal options, any longer.
It is difficult to believe this effort will lead to anything, though, considering it is being led by the very same guy who tried and failed at it.
I am not opposed to exploring legal options, any longer.
It is difficult to believe this effort will lead to anything, though, considering it is being led by the very same guy who tried and failed at it.
if you are referring to me then you have evidence to back up your claim? either way? if not then maybe you should shut it up then.
also I set the group up for the backers to organize, after group was set up I stepped down and no longer leading the charge, nor was I.
I've got a date set to go after PB now unless PB issues a full refund or delivers product or gives us information that gives me faith in the company once again, I will go after them with everything I can from a lawsuit to the FTC and the AG, and something tells me I will not be the only one or even the first one.
I was told at 2 years and my entire product has not been delivered it will show negligence on PB's part and allow a case to be opened.
I'm just waiting on a couple of factors to fall into place before I go the legal route, since i'm going to have to waste time with lawyers and courts, i'm going to make sure PB will never be able to do it again and they will no longer be able to resurrect themselves from the muck.
If PB tried this stunt on me I was ready to take them to court and even had a lawyer who would have taken the case for me and got paid on the back end after the case was resolved from the Defendants (PB).
Nuff said, since they break their word to us, and you may allow it, but not me, as to thousands, that will about cover what I spent on this game and my lawyer intends to collect his fees from them. so i'm standing my ground, you, your being used as a floor mat. If they do sell any of the robotech game at GenCon before I get my stuff, they better get a damn good lawyer cause I will do anything in my legal power to destroy an honorless cur of a company that would do such a thing. Furthermore any lawsuit I bring will only involve me and the others ready to go in, it will not involve any others. I will win, no guarantee PB will pay up, but they will have a court appointed lien against their company, which will not help them.
2 months, i'll give Palladium 2 months to put up or shut up, if they fail to provide adequate information and proof they are actually doing something, other then this nic picking they are doing, and stop with the lies, 2 months if they fail, then I will be forced to redress my problems thru the courts furthermore I'll be contacting the AG to have them look into the matter too.
Thanks, Nesbet. A campaign book is an interesting take on an expansion and maybe a good idea AFTER they come out with wave 2. Mike, did you contribute to that (whether willingly or unwittingly)? I wonder if the conventional vehicle rules will be shoehorned into that.
Autarch wrote: Wow is that actually for sale or just something they whipped up at kinkos to display at the con?
The fact that it's not traditional "Palladium Perfect Bound" or whatever the hell they call it, leads me to think it's a preview copy, not the final result.
I am not opposed to exploring legal options, any longer.
It is difficult to believe this effort will lead to anything, though, considering it is being led by the very same guy who tried and failed at it.
if you are referring to me then you have evidence to back up your claim? either way? if not then maybe you should shut it up then.
also I set the group up for the backers to organize, after group was set up I stepped down and no longer leading the charge, nor was I.
Proof? You repeatedly told us that if you got your refund then you'd keep quiet and never complain again.
We got a couple of months respite, then you started in with griping and complaining again.
You are either not keeping your word or you failed. Considering the amount of complaining, we can all guess which it is.
You set up the FB group, you determined the scope and parameters, you encouraged people to join it, but you aren't leading it?
Good for you that you tried, but after all your bluster it amounted to nothing. Your threats, your years of bombarding us with hourly posts about how you were going to destroy Palladium. Palladium is still here, you are still here trying to get people to do what you couldn't.
I am not opposed to exploring legal options, any longer.
It is difficult to believe this effort will lead to anything, though, considering it is being led by the very same guy who tried and failed at it.
if you are referring to me then you have evidence to back up your claim? either way? if not then maybe you should shut it up then.
also I set the group up for the backers to organize, after group was set up I stepped down and no longer leading the charge, nor was I.
Proof? You repeatedly told us that if you got your refund then you'd keep quiet and never complain again.
We got a couple of months respite, then you started in with griping and complaining again.
You are either not keeping your word or you failed. Considering the amount of complaining, we can all guess which it is.
You set up the FB group, you determined the scope and parameters, you encouraged people to join it, but you aren't leading it?
Good for you that you tried, but after all your bluster it amounted to nothing. Your threats, your years of bombarding us with hourly posts about how you were going to destroy Palladium. Palladium is still here, you are still here trying to get people to do what you couldn't.
and yet if we look at my posts here in this topic, it seems to be mostly pics of my stuff and making fun of PB which is my wont to do, also where did I say if I got a refund I would keep quiet? other then a full refund, not a partial refund but full amount, I still got their gak I paid for and can make fun of that.
so to further my point you have no evidence just hopes and dreams that PB who supported for ever and eve just screwed you over and not me. have fun with that.
The group is not for me, it is for those who wish to sue PB for them to organize and coordinate the efforts.
Forar wrote: To Nate's point, that screed a few posts up?
~98% recycled material.
I don't think I should need to say where it was recycled from.
Autarch wrote: Wow is that actually for sale or just something they whipped up at kinkos to display at the con?
The fact that it's not traditional "Palladium Perfect Bound" or whatever the hell they call it, leads me to think it's a preview copy, not the final result.
i'm wondering if there is even anything in the book or if it is just a front cover for the book?
warboss wrote: Thanks, Nesbet. A campaign book is an interesting take on an expansion and maybe a good idea AFTER they come out with wave 2. Mike, did you contribute to that (whether willingly or unwittingly)? I wonder if the conventional vehicle rules will be shoehorned into that.
warboss wrote: Thanks, Nesbet. A campaign book is an interesting take on an expansion and maybe a good idea AFTER they come out with wave 2. Mike, did you contribute to that (whether willingly or unwittingly)? I wonder if the conventional vehicle rules will be shoehorned into that.
Not me, but yes, fans did help.
other then some editing does PB staff even write books?
warboss wrote: Thanks, Nesbet. A campaign book is an interesting take on an expansion and maybe a good idea AFTER they come out with wave 2. Mike, did you contribute to that (whether willingly or unwittingly)? I wonder if the conventional vehicle rules will be shoehorned into that.
Not me, but yes, fans did help.
Ok, thanks. So any grapevine info from facebook on whether the conventional vehicles have switched from a freebie in 2015 that never happened to a chapter in a paid supplement in who the hell knows what year?
warboss wrote: Thanks, Nesbet. A campaign book is an interesting take on an expansion and maybe a good idea AFTER they come out with wave 2. Mike, did you contribute to that (whether willingly or unwittingly)? I wonder if the conventional vehicle rules will be shoehorned into that.
Not me, but yes, fans did help.
Ok, thanks. So any grapevine info from facebook on whether the conventional vehicles have switched from a freebie in 2015 that never happened to a chapter in a paid supplement in who the hell knows what year?
Officially? No idea. I posted my work up for free a number of times.
@Forar: If you are doing your own legal case: I know you. I would chip-in out of my hobby funds. I could be a witness but I would have to look back at some things I have written, I am unsure if anything I posted could come back to bite me in the butt for the case. You have consistently remained polite so I figure you have a better shot than most.
@Nesbet: That scenario book got me all excited for some mysterious reason. Is this some PB consideration or a printed fan made document? I WANT.
@Asterios: The doublespeak or just strange hinting just seems so bizarre: it is very hard to figure out how to place you. Either be sorry for you because you are in some strange situation that prevents clear language due to threats or law involvement OR you are going for mysterious which is... not working so great. It is like watching a monkey in a cage hurting itself trying to get out. Your own efforts in making the models for yourself is commendable, you might have to stick with that or continue to have n815e poke you with the pointy stick.
@Asterios: The doublespeak or just strange hinting just seems so bizarre: it is very hard to figure out how to place you. Either be sorry for you because you are in some strange situation that prevents clear language due to threats or law involvement OR you are going for mysterious which is... not working so great. It is like watching a monkey in a cage hurting itself trying to get out. Your own efforts in making the models for yourself is commendable, you might have to stick with that or continue to have n815e poke you with the pointy stick.
can't say me and mysterious could be used in the same sentence i'm usually very open and loud, in other words I have no shame and speak my mind, when I can.
The Curse of RobotechTM spreads. It appears Paulson Games, the sculptor/minis maker who originally approached Palladium about this project seems to have also run into possibly similar issues with his unrelated mecha kickstarter project.
I'm sorry if that is old news for some but it's news to me. I wouldn't be happy as a backer for 6mm minis but at least he's being open and honest about the issues which is the exact polar opposite of Palladium. It is a bit worrisome that he started a second company to sell the same minis (probably selling the rights/moulds/etc between paper corporate entities) to not have the existing liabilities hold over future projects. As long as he keeps communicating and showing progress, that isn't an issue though. It sucks both for him and his backers regardless.
Yeah, Mecha Front has been a work in progress for some time now. I was a backer, and remain a fan of his work.
It is, to me, an example of how things can go completely against a (legit) small company. A one man operation subcontracting things out and it gets out of hand.
i was going to post the pics of 3D primts that are on facebook, displayed at PB booth. But they were printed and designed by a fan... just as that scenarios book it seems... T__T
So the scenario book you posted a pic about is just more fan rules and nothing actually official in the pipeline? I've got nothing against fan rules (hell, I have some for Robotech on my blog even!) and a good amount of palladium stuff (tactics and RPG) starts with that but I was thinking it was one of their "raw" first drafts that they preview and even sell half finished every year at gencon.
Or maybe they're running low on chaff to send out? Yes, that would imply they're actually selling, but we know some folks buy like 10 of these things, so assuming they aren't adding much to the existing pile, I could see some things starting to dwindle over time.
How's the conversation going with Kickstarter, Meri? Were my numbers of any help? Even if not, it was a bit fun to have a more accurate/extensive list of the shenanigans built.
The only part of their Terms of Service that Kickstarter cares about is the section that stipulates they take their 5% cut off the top before dispersing the funds.
warboss wrote: The Curse of RobotechTM spreads. It appears Paulson Games, the sculptor/minis maker who originally approached Palladium about this project seems to have also run into possibly similar issues with his unrelated mecha kickstarter project.
Paulson Games is being dissolved because it is no longer a single person entity and we felt it was best to rebrand things to fit the new partnership as I'm only a partial owner now. It doesn't impact the Mecha Front line at all which is still being handled entirely by me. It's also a vastly flawed comparison to categorize my KS with Palladiums, given that I'm a single person opperation with barely a $30K budget, vs Palladium's 3 establish companies, dozen+ employees, and $1.4+million budget.
The issues have been well covered in my KS updates for some time, but apparently most people don't read those. Feel free to direct further discussion of my KS to the thread you linked to as it's completely unrelated to the Robotech thread.
Albertorius wrote: Those super poseable Spartans! Clearly the parts number was a great investment >_>
Supers look quite nice. Good work!
well technically they designed one of the Spartans to have its legs look like they are in motion with one leg having its heel point on ground and the other legs toe point on the ground, I decided not to do that since they would look goofy.
According to Morgan (who was at Gencon), their booth was smaller than last year's, and whenever he swung by, Kevin seemed more inclined to talk to other PB staff/booth volunteers than potential customers.
Obviously he can speak for himself when he finds an opportunity to log in and share.
I stopped by the booth and was not impressed. The models were not well painted and I did not see any new models. Granted I saw the SDF1 but at that size its not really for gaming as it is for show. Just paste a stupid jolly roger on a ship and give me some cardboard already.
There were some listed, but presumably those happened in the gaming areas, not necessarily at their booth itself.
I remember seeing at least 2 names for multiple events. They seemed to generally be '4 players, no experience or models necessary' introductory things, which is reasonable for a small/niche game with presumably few dedicated players. No tournament that I'm aware of. No idea if the smaller booth had the demo section set up like last year.
Not sure how many people attend, but I'm hoping to wrangle my crew into going next year.
I too would appreciate any word on what was happening with the PB booth.
At Anime North it really was a ghost town.
If not for the idle curious drawn-in by the fan held RRT table (3 people I saw over about an hour), the only other customers were the 8 odd RPG gamers with Kevin.
I saw a turn-out of some 30 people just for Beyblade where it's cartoon ended around 2005.
Actually by proportion of decades past... that may be about right.
Talizvar wrote: I too would appreciate any word on what was happening with the PB booth. At Anime North it really was a ghost town. If not for the idle curious drawn-in by the fan held RRT table (3 people I saw over about an hour), the only other customers were the 8 odd RPG gamers with Kevin. I saw a turn-out of some 30 people just for Beyblade where it's cartoon ended around 2005. Actually by proportion of decades past... that may be about right.
I expect that the forecast for the weekend called for sunshine and rainbows blown directly on Kevin's face with a 98% chance of ignoring the little criticism given during dealer's hall hours. In the next murmur, it'll likely be a rousing success with tons of folks praising the direction Palladium is taking with ignoring the $1.4 million project in favor of dollar store poker card/old Rifts CCG art hybrid products, pencils, and embroidered jackets.
I dunno, the dice bag is still tempting me.
But like many PB product, it's size may not meet my needs and expectations.
To be fair, I have been a gamer for over 3 decades so the dice collection might fill a gym bag. I do not want to go find out.
Did PB get a small booth this time? If not, I bet they will for sure next year or not show up at all. They would not have much to say at a "Gaming Convention"
Yikes! Saw who were their neighbors on the map for the show:
Catalyst Game Labs. (Battletech... soooo funny, not sure who would be "unseen" now)
Gale Force 9
Fantasy Flight Games (Oh, the contrast!)
Then Kenzer and Co (they could talk RPG with Hackmaster).
I know they have said repeatedly many times they are trying to figure out the miniature process..
After looking at Palladium web site they had older Rifts miniatures.. Realizing they are not in the
miniature business.. It doesn't take a expert to know they look like dog doo.. If the product doesn't
meet minimum quality level.. why do you think it will sale?
There is trust issues in the company not allowing people to do their job.. and that is what is killing
the company. But seeing the announcement about the poker cards did kind of cheese me off..
Thinking they are working on poker cards instead of RRT that "investors" have already paid them for to work on.
Genoside07 wrote: Thinking they are working on poker cards instead of RRT that "investors" have already paid them for to work on.
I had seen it pointed out that Savage Worlds uses a poker deck mechanic so this is their way to ride on the back of that successful KS.
Makes sense to cater to those happy few.
I think most people know that... but we just don't care as Robotech backers since they're choosing to work on that instead of making/showing progress on what we funded in 2013.
Sorry, I keep talking about "making sense" from the PB totally self-serving perspective.
Printing stuff on paper products for PB is more in their comfort zone anyway (as well they can use old stock pictures) so it is easy to see that new product coming online without the usual muti-year delay.
Oh, I have the squirrel in a cage frustration over this KS so I have tried to move on to other distractions (squirrel!!!) since hobby and frustration really should not fall in the same sentence.
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Merijeek wrote: It always makes me die a little bit inside whenever I see Jolly referring to his "good friend Kevin".
You mean Jolly R. Blackburn?
Makes sense since Jolly was producing "Shadis Magazine" which would comment on things like Kevin's RPG's: never hurts to be REALLY nice to reviewers.
The relationship would have been quite different if he was a contractor reporting to Kevin.
n815e wrote: When is the Gamer Goggles' interview getting released? I am sure we'll see hard hitting questions.
I hate to say it was an interview much like this (I know it was intended sarcasm) :
Headline: FOX News’ Jesse Watters Sits Down With Donald Trump To Ask Him The Hard Hitting Questions
The closest thing to the person being interviewed writing their own questions.
Nice!
I think I liked all the human gear for that "age" of Robotech.
The Alpha was one of my favorite toys as a kid.
Was not much of a fan of the Invid however.
Forar wrote: According to Morgan (who was at Gencon), their booth was smaller than last year's, and whenever he swung by, Kevin seemed more inclined to talk to other PB staff/booth volunteers than potential customers.
Obviously he can speak for himself when he finds an opportunity to log in and share.
Speaking for myself, now that I'm home (4hr at airport, 4hr flight, 4hr layover, 15hr flight, 3hr travel home = not fun), and have an internet connection I'm familiar with, here's my rundown.
Booth was about half the size it's been on previous years. I paced it out at 8 steps to a side (so I figure 20'x20'). It's placement also meant that while it had some due to being near Fantasy Flight, the usual zigzag motion of the crowd (where you go up one aisle to the end, and down another) was disrupted by the FFG booth. Also, unlike other "established" companies, they had no elevated signage. I went past it at least twice in my meandering without seeing it before I noticed where it was. Whereas Ninja Division, Smirk and Dagger, and Pinnacle (arguable contemporaries I'm familiar with) all stood out on every run through the dealers hall. After I noticed, I probably went past maybe 6-8 times after that.
Foot traffic wasn't bad, there was always a few people there, but I never saw it packed (but again, I didn't see it at all on Thursday). I do know that every time I went past, Kevin was deep in conversation with another staffer. Never saw him talking to customers. Don't know if he was avoiding the customers (at least until they'd been screened), or if it was just a statistical anomaly.
They only had 9 core boxes out at a time (a pile of 2x2x2 flat, with one vertical above it), so it was impossible to tell how fast they moved, unlike last year with the pallet.
I do know on Saturday when I went past, there was someone I recognized (a friend of a friend, or someone I'd played against in years past, I couldn't remember his name), was looking at the core box, and looking for one of the staffers to talk to him. The interested party recognized me, and I told him about the parts counts issue, and that it's been two years without a release with no sign of anything being done before EoY. He put the box down, and we left, splitting up when we got to Fantasy Flight (I won't wait an hour plus in line, screw that noise). I don't know if I cost them a sale or not, but I do know I cost them a potential sale. I felt pretty good about that.
Forar wrote: According to Morgan (who was at Gencon), their booth was smaller than last year's, and whenever he swung by, Kevin seemed more inclined to talk to other PB staff/booth volunteers than potential customers.
Obviously he can speak for himself when he finds an opportunity to log in and share.
Speaking for myself, now that I'm home (4hr at airport, 4hr flight, 4hr layover, 15hr flight, 3hr travel home = not fun), and have an internet connection I'm familiar with, here's my rundown.
Booth was about half the size it's been on previous years. I paced it out at 8 steps to a side (so I figure 20'x20'). It's placement also meant that while it had some due to being near Fantasy Flight, the usual zigzag motion of the crowd (where you go up one aisle to the end, and down another) was disrupted by the FFG booth. Also, unlike other "established" companies, they had no elevated signage. I went past it at least twice in my meandering without seeing it before I noticed where it was. Whereas Ninja Division, Smirk and Dagger, and Pinnacle (arguable contemporaries I'm familiar with) all stood out on every run through the dealers hall. After I noticed, I probably went past maybe 6-8 times after that.
Foot traffic wasn't bad, there was always a few people there, but I never saw it packed (but again, I didn't see it at all on Thursday). I do know that every time I went past, Kevin was deep in conversation with another staffer. Never saw him talking to customers. Don't know if he was avoiding the customers (at least until they'd been screened), or if it was just a statistical anomaly.
They only had 9 core boxes out at a time (a pile of 2x2x2 flat, with one vertical above it), so it was impossible to tell how fast they moved, unlike last year with the pallet.
I do know on Saturday when I went past, there was someone I recognized (a friend of a friend, or someone I'd played against in years past, I couldn't remember his name), was looking at the core box, and looking for one of the staffers to talk to him. The interested party recognized me, and I told him about the parts counts issue, and that it's been two years without a release with no sign of anything being done before EoY. He put the box down, and we left, splitting up when we got to Fantasy Flight (I won't wait an hour plus in line, screw that noise). I don't know if I cost them a sale or not, but I do know I cost them a potential sale. I felt pretty good about that.
well WRRD posted this on the KS forums: (me I find his comments dubious at best)
Red Duke Games about 13 hours ago
There were over 7 large games played for RRT at Gen Con. I ran 4 and they were all sold out and (I had 1 player not show up). I ran 2 - 300 point games and 2 - 400 point games. All the players who played had no experience with the game or had played some demo games previously. Every player both enjoyed the game and enjoyed the experience. Many of the players stated that the game captured the feel of the show and that they need to get more players playing the game. 6 Tables away the SDF-1 game was playing at the same time as one of mine games but we did check out the SDF-1 table and there was a large crowd watching the game. Of the past Gen-Cons I have worked with Palladium, this was one of the most positive in terms of Robotech and how much people are supporting the game.
and this:
Red Duke Games about 10 hours ago
As I would expect the responses I get are from the Anti-Fan Boys.. Also I have no reason to lie about my experiences. Gen Con was an amazing time and I played Robotech Tactics and Talked RRT at the Palladium Booth for 4 full days... I'm glad your here Rick, I really am. Your getting famous as an Anti-Fan-Boy.. I spoke with several Game Companies and they know all about you and your kind. Enjoy
and this:
Red Duke Games about 5 hours ago
@n8 I was hired by palladium to run the demo games and the big games, and I scheduled the games through Palladium. They were official Palladium Games. Prize support was provided. I didn't need any recognition for doing the games, I wanted to do them. I was listed on the games and listed in the newsletter as being at the Booth. As for the scenario book, I have been working on that for the last year and a half. As for the selling of the games some of my players had missed the kickstarter or purchased the game and wanted to learn and get a good feel of the game before buying more stuff. Most of the purchasing of the Core box and unit sets happened after discussions or demos at the booth. We were close to running out of the core box sets that PB took to the Con.
Every time I walked bybthe Palladium booth it was basically empty save for their haughty looking staff that pajd no attention to anyone who walked by or stopped even momentarily. I saw some RTT stuff on their tables, etc. but it looked like they brought very little product, if any (probably a good thing in light of the embarassment of last years pallets of unsold games). I did notice a sign that advertised a 30% off discount on all RTT product however.
Red Duke Games about 5 hours ago
@n8 I was hired by palladium to run the demo games and the big games, and I scheduled the games through Palladium. They were official Palladium Games. Prize support was provided. I didn't need any recognition for doing the games, I wanted to do them. I was listed on the games and listed in the newsletter as being at the Booth. As for the scenario book, I have been working on that for the last year and a half. As for the selling of the games some of my players had missed the kickstarter or purchased the game and wanted to learn and get a good feel of the game before buying more stuff. Most of the purchasing of the Core box and unit sets happened after discussions or demos at the booth. We were close to running out of the core box sets that PB took to the Con.
Huh, I know for a fact that a few months ago, WRRD or whatever he's calling himself these days, asked for a few people to help rite scenarios for this "upcoming" book.
Just like a lackey of PB to take all the credit for other people's hard work.
To be fair where the games are being held and where the booth is are two very different locations from what I understand.
Also it is totally possible that people who are not backers are interested in RRT but have no interest in the RPG stuff. The last time the PB booth was in the RPG area if I recall correctly and that is not the first place you would look for minis.
Also, Peter did an awesome job with the SDF-1 and I would not be surprised that he would have a lot of people checking out his display/demo/game.
They seem to bring stacks of RPG books (fairly small space they take up I admit) but if anyone took interest in buying for RRT "one of each" PB would typically have sold 1/3rd of their stock other than the starter boxes.
The company itself seems less optimistic than their fan-friends.
Hmmm.
I will applaud Red Duke's efforts demoing some games, the IP is still something I can enjoy and am desperate to not have PB ruin it for me (denial is a good start).
I may not agree him coordinating with Palladium in those efforts however is a good thing.
The comments by Red Duke about the "haters gonna hate" still seems to have a blind eye to an unfulfilled Kickstarter years late with no end in sight: much anger is justified.
I had no idea Rick was so infamous... but again, much ire toward PB is justified so someone would eventually stand out somewhere.
I like him around, he makes my anti-Palladium rants seem reasonable in comparison
I know we get into the "White Knight" discussions but comments from those folk are painful to read due to tip-toe'ing around the various landmines of Palladium behavior: they are a tough group to try to defend.
I guess Kevin's staff we can feel sorry for: they were stuck in a small box talking to Kevin for days at a time... gives me the willies just thinking about it.
Mike1975 wrote: To be fair where the games are being held and where the booth is are two very different locations from what I understand.
Also it is totally possible that people who are not backers are interested in RRT but have no interest in the RPG stuff. The last time the PB booth was in the RPG area if I recall correctly and that is not the first place you would look for minis.
I know a number of people that were not backers who were interested in the game.
When my flgs displayed some of my painted RRT miniatures in their case, non-backers wanted to talk to me about the game.
You and I both know that one of the things that killed interest is the poor handling. This could have had broad appeal, but its creators aren't interested in it.
Mike1975 wrote: Also, Peter did an awesome job with the SDF-1 and I would not be surprised that he would have a lot of people checking out his display/demo/game.
Yes, that looks really nice and he did a great job.
I can't speak for recent years but in my 15 years of going to gencon I don't recall the dealer's hall being separated into genre regions. You'd have a minis company right next to a t-shirt booth next to an rpg book only startup. The actual games though is a different story as those were geographically bunched up together (rpg rooms, minis hall, ccg hall, etc).
warboss wrote: I can't speak for recent years but in my 15 years of going to gencon I don't recall the dealer's hall being separated into genre regions. You'd have a minis company right next to a t-shirt booth next to an rpg book only startup. The actual games though is a different story as those were geographically bunched up together (rpg rooms, minis hall, ccg hall, etc).
The last few times they were at GenCon the PB booth and the gaming area were seperated by a pretty large distance. They were in different buildings. Whether that was due to cost or what I can't remember. The fact remains that the two locations are in no means close to each other.
Talizvar wrote: They seem to bring stacks of RPG books (fairly small space they take up I admit) but if anyone took interest in buying for RRT "one of each" PB would typically have sold 1/3rd of their stock other than the starter boxes.
The company itself seems less optimistic than their fan-friends.
Hmmm.
I will applaud Red Duke's efforts demoing some games, the IP is still something I can enjoy and am desperate to not have PB ruin it for me (denial is a good start).
I may not agree him coordinating with Palladium in those efforts however is a good thing.
The comments by Red Duke about the "haters gonna hate" still seems to have a blind eye to an unfulfilled Kickstarter years late with no end in sight: much anger is justified.
I had no idea Rick was so infamous... but again, much ire toward PB is justified so someone would eventually stand out somewhere.
I like him around, he makes my anti-Palladium rants seem reasonable in comparison
I know we get into the "White Knight" discussions but comments from those folk are painful to read due to tip-toe'ing around the various landmines of Palladium behavior: they are a tough group to try to defend.
I guess Kevin's staff we can feel sorry for: they were stuck in a small box talking to Kevin for days at a time... gives me the willies just thinking about it.
I highly doubt i'm as infamous as WRRD would suggest, since Palladium is the only company I have ever had any ire towards, other companies I either don't care about nor have problems with, it is only with PB but that is because i consider them thieves and con artists, but that is my opinion.
Mike1975 wrote: To be fair where the games are being held and where the booth is are two very different locations from what I understand.
Also it is totally possible that people who are not backers are interested in RRT but have no interest in the RPG stuff. The last time the PB booth was in the RPG area if I recall correctly and that is not the first place you would look for minis.
Also, Peter did an awesome job with the SDF-1 and I would not be surprised that he would have a lot of people checking out his display/demo/game.
If you're referring to the scheduled games, yes, those tend to be segregated by type. If you're referring to the vendor floor, you're completely wrong. The layout has nothing to do with game types, as evidenced by PB being between FFG and GF9.
warboss wrote: I can't speak for recent years but in my 15 years of going to gencon I don't recall the dealer's hall being separated into genre regions. You'd have a minis company right next to a t-shirt booth next to an rpg book only startup. The actual games though is a different story as those were geographically bunched up together (rpg rooms, minis hall, ccg hall, etc).
The last few times they were at GenCon the PB booth and the gaming area were seperated by a pretty large distance. They were in different buildings. Whether that was due to cost or what I can't remember. The fact remains that the two locations are in no means close to each other.
While you are correct in that point above, I'm not referring to that but rather an earlier statement you made. You said
the PB booth was in the RPG area if I recall correctly and that is not the first place you would look for minis.
There to my knowledge has never been an "rpg area" for booths in the vendor's hall going back as far as my trips to the old MECCA center in Milwaukee in the early 90's. It's assigned first come first served based on the size you want and the room available. I've never heard a mention of them grouping booths together by genre (although some related or companies choose to do that themselves if possible).
You probably just mixing up the booth situation and what happened previously wtih palladium's scheduled games (two different screw ups last year iirc). Because palladium didn't want to pony up any cash and partly because they wanted things centralized, they got their minis games assigned to their RPG game rooms... of which were very far from the vendor's hall booth.
vendor floor space is all about who is willing to pay what for what location, once upon a long long time ago there was talk of segregating the vendors area by genre but that was nixed by certain genres as a threat to any foot traffic they might get. now its all about location, you want a big space in a high traffic area, its gonna cost you. meanwhile the same space out in the boonies will cost you but a mere fraction of that.
Mike1975 wrote: To be fair where the games are being held and where the booth is are two very different locations from what I understand.
Also it is totally possible that people who are not backers are interested in RRT but have no interest in the RPG stuff. The last time the PB booth was in the RPG area if I recall correctly and that is not the first place you would look for minis.
Also, Peter did an awesome job with the SDF-1 and I would not be surprised that he would have a lot of people checking out his display/demo/game.
If you're referring to the scheduled games, yes, those tend to be segregated by type. If you're referring to the vendor floor, you're completely wrong. The layout has nothing to do with game types, as evidenced by PB being between FFG and GF9.
Which is the root of the question.....PB's locale being relatively lonely in no means automatically means that the gaming area is too. The former no one cares about and the latter is run by fans who do. Hence the difference. The point is knowing what one is like should not be taken and assumed that the other is the same way as well.
So, I have my Kickstarter pledge, I think it was the $150 one.. the core game plus a bunch of extra sprues that were free. Is there any chance I would be able to sell these to anyone? It's just collecting dust and I don't think I'll ever get around to building any of the minis much less playing.
about gencon prices.. yeah, they suck, and the more you can pay the more gencon cares about you (typical though, they're a biz after all) but you also have to have made a name for yourself or be a returning customer. Prices they gave me for 1 10x10' square booth is $1800 minimum, $2700 for a corner booth, but since I'm a noob they will only allow me to do a Entrepreneur 1 booth for $1000 unless space opens up for one of the other areas which they don't expect will happen. I'm going to be doing an Entrepreneur booth for next year, I have the funds and could (barely) afford 2 regular booths for extra space, but they said no.
A little cursory Google'ing later, but it seems Gencon isn't very open about what it costs to run a booth. If it's anything like Toronto Fan Exp/Comic Con, yeah, it'll be based on square footage and with some caveats about location (I believe it costs more for a corner booth at our events). It wouldn't surprise me to have some measure of location tier costs, but I think a lot of that is also based on size.
When I was at Gencon last year, a lot of the further / boonies booths were for smaller companies and not generally all that big. I suspect getting a small (10x10 or 100sqft seems to be a standard booth starting point, from reading their documentation about booth associated/included badges provided based on footage).
But yeah, the vendor floor (at least last year) was a mishmash. Dice were all over the place (Chessex was nowhere near Q-Workshop was nowhere near some X-Wing Compatible translucent dice, etc), Dwarven Forge was up front in a snazzy space, T-Shirts were wherever, FFG was wherever they wanted FFG to attract huge crowds that challenged the fire code, etc. I never got a sense that there was a 'minis area' on the vendor floor.
It's probably not identical, but from my experiences at the Toronto events, we're given an option at the end of one show to reserve our same spot for next year, however, that doesn't necessarily mean we'll be in the exact same location. We did that at the end of 2013's Expo, but then in 2014 they had a giant Starcraft 2 tournament that ate up a ton of space, so things got shuffled around. And then in 2015 they were shuffled some more. I get the feeling it's a sort of Tetris approach trying to make routes work and perhaps account for some massive draw 'tent pole' locations or vendors, and it seemed similar at GC.
Trying to sort out the particulars to attend next year, so hopefully I can heartily congratulate PB on finally delivering their outstanding product in person (assuming I can catch the attention of someone other than a volunteer this time)!
Forar wrote: Trying to sort out the particulars to attend next year, so hopefully I can heartily congratulate PB on finally delivering their outstanding product in person (assuming I can catch the attention of someone other than a volunteer this time)!
You can ALWAYS talk to Kevin but you cannot go into it with a frown: it will scare him off more than a cross to a vampire.
I have talked to the man twice.
I will say with confidence that unless talking to him in an RPG setting: there is little reason to talk at all.
Necros wrote: So, I have my Kickstarter pledge, I think it was the $150 one.. the core game plus a bunch of extra sprues that were free. Is there any chance I would be able to sell these to anyone? It's just collecting dust
Put it on eBay and see what happens. You won't get $150, though...
Necros wrote: So, I have my Kickstarter pledge, I think it was the $150 one.. the core game plus a bunch of extra sprues that were free. Is there any chance I would be able to sell these to anyone? It's just collecting dust and I don't think I'll ever get around to building any of the minis much less playing.
I'm still building my stuff, swear it feels like there is no end to this gak, get one batch done and got another batch to go.
that and between my pledge and some friends pledges I put enough money into this project then it was worth.
Necros wrote: So, I have my Kickstarter pledge, I think it was the $150 one.. the core game plus a bunch of extra sprues that were free. Is there any chance I would be able to sell these to anyone? It's just collecting dust and I don't think I'll ever get around to building any of the minis much less playing.
about gencon prices.. yeah, they suck, and the more you can pay the more gencon cares about you (typical though, they're a biz after all) but you also have to have made a name for yourself or be a returning customer. Prices they gave me for 1 10x10' square booth is $1800 minimum, $2700 for a corner booth, but since I'm a noob they will only allow me to do a Entrepreneur 1 booth for $1000 unless space opens up for one of the other areas which they don't expect will happen. I'm going to be doing an Entrepreneur booth for next year, I have the funds and could (barely) afford 2 regular booths for extra space, but they said no.
Is that the first year only discounted booth offer to help out the little guy that they were so proud of a few years back when they introduced it? As for robotech, good luck. You're competing with stores with dead stock and the stuff periodically hits the clearance section or equivalent discounts (both at palladium's store and elsewhere). Also, you're effectively selling a bit more than half a pledge by sculpt count (more by sheer model count) which makes it harder. Your best bet would frankly be mike's facebook group as that is where all the non-jaded folks have apparently congregated.
I'm pretty sure I've seen one of those guys at Toronto cons. If it's the one I'm thinking of, I believe he was... I want to say Khyron at Comic Con 2015 or 2014.
Also, gosh, that table looks more impressive with a MAC-II, Lancers, Super VT's in modes I'm pretty sure haven't been officially made...
Almost like having more than just a dozen models to the line really fills things out. >.>
I have created 3 new character cards for Robotech RPG tactics: Zeraal, Gorian, and Hiro. These were the final three characters to complete the set of characters from the Robotech: Battlecry video game. Additionally, you can still find the previous special characters I made as well via this link:
Also, don't forget that the organized play rules packet can still be downloaded there as well. Download the new characters and play them and let me know what you guys think. We've had some interesting games with them and using Zeraal opens up some tactical options for the Zentraedi.
A rather sad state of affairs; even those who support them have to collect or make their own from other products.
To do a little concern trolling of my own (tongue in cheek), it'd actually be kind of a shame if someone saw that table, and was excited to see all those figures. Rushing to the booth, they clamour to buy core sets and some Super VT's and FPA and just 'all' the MAC-II's...
Oh. There's just one Super VT figure out of 3. And it's $22 each. Same with the FPA. And there are no MAC-II's outside of the kits and toys and scratch builds others have made.
Just Pods and VT's and most (but not all) of the Destroids.
I got to admit, I have to give it to the guy for having the imagination and follow through to create that table. I honestly won't have thought of that, but then again, I'm more a ground guy.
I am simultaneously impressed and somewhat appalled by that setup, to be honest. It's creative and the craftsmanship is good to excellent given the limitations the material and probably cost/ time represented, but for a convention-level event, it feels very... low budget. Not trying to insult the guy(s) who put in the effort, it just feels like something you throw together for a more private gaming group for a major event, not a national-level convention.
JohnHwangDD wrote:To be fair, pretty much any time a MAC-II is on the board, it's gonna be awesome.
While I have seen much better con setups (almost always from obsessive historical gamers, god bless them!), I think you're a bit harsh on that Lynx. It's better than anything I've seen for friendly tabletop games that didn't just depend on store terrain and it's definitely above average for gencon as well from my (again somewhat outdated) experience. It's certainly not as good as it could have been if he had spent hundreds of dollars and dozens of hours on it but I think it looks quite nice and is very creative as well.
With these new pics, I decided to check out the ks comments and found this nugget (that likely some of you already know).
Jeff NMI Ruiz about 11 hours ago
All of the RRT events run at Gen Con were sponsored by Palladium and organized through the Megaversal Ambassador's program.
Events run at the booth were run by: tom Roach, mysel, Robert Shewing [sp?] and I believe Brandon Aten ran a few while i was gone.
The scenario book was written by Thomas Roache. It was written on spec and should betting submitted to Kevin
So apparently the episode scenario book is a fan production by the Roach that he's hoping (like his initial rules 4 years ago) will be picked up by Palladium.
My only objection to that game is it needed more models. The table should have been swarming with pods and veritechs. Truly representing the chaotic nature of those battles from the TV show. Still...it's awesome to see people enjoying the game.
Lynx7725 wrote: I got to admit, I have to give it to the guy for having the imagination and follow through to create that table. I honestly won't have thought of that, but then again, I'm more a ground guy.
I am simultaneously impressed and somewhat appalled by that setup, to be honest. It's creative and the craftsmanship is good to excellent given the limitations the material and probably cost/ time represented, but for a convention-level event, it feels very... low budget. Not trying to insult the guy(s) who put in the effort, it just feels like something you throw together for a more private gaming group for a major event, not a national-level convention.
JohnHwangDD wrote:To be fair, pretty much any time a MAC-II is on the board, it's gonna be awesome.
Well awesome for someone at least..
I'm just impressed that anyone went through the trouble of making a 1/285-scale (14' long) SDF-1 for RRT. At all.
Maybe that's from later in the game when a bunch have already been taken out?
Or were running low? Or decided to spend points on the MAC-II/Lancers/FPA/Gnerls (aka; shame players can't legitimately buy these...) instead of a swarm of the chaff?
I'm at work so I don't have the cards/my book on hand to stat things out, but assuming a 200-300 point game, those non-standard units would eat up a pretty good chunk of their allotment as I recall. Assuming a trio to start, the FPA's would be 100, and that Artillery squad would be a good amount as well. MAC-II with Destroid core or two (or supports, I'm counting at least 9 Destroids in one pic) would be a good number as well.
Not to tell you how it plays for builds, but if the person running it decided they wanted to play with things other than basic/command/recon pods and VT's/non-MAC destroids, while keeping it a reasonably sized game, I could see just from a few shots how that'd add up rapidly.
Well, according to PB, they don't actually take money from people who pre-order their books.
So taking money at the time of 'pre-order' (*insert 2 pages of 'omg KS isn't a pre-order' debate here*) is something they save for very special folks that support their Miniatures projects and a handful of non-Kickstarter crowdfunding endeavors.
Forar wrote: Well, according to PB, they don't actually take money from people who pre-order their books.
So taking money at the time of 'pre-order' (*insert 2 pages of 'omg KS isn't a pre-order' debate here*) is something they save for very special folks that support their Miniatures projects and a handful of non-Kickstarter crowdfunding endeavors.
I hate what is going on with society these days...
Ghostbusters movie tanks and the studio blames the fans..
Palladium doesn't work on the funded kick starter and blames the backers..
Lie and blame someone else... I just hope those people realize they will not get any more of my money..
Forar wrote: I'm pretty sure I've seen one of those guys at Toronto cons. If it's the one I'm thinking of, I believe he was... I want to say Khyron at Comic Con 2015 or 2014.
Also, gosh, that table looks more impressive with a MAC-II, Lancers, Super VT's in modes I'm pretty sure haven't been officially made...
Almost like having more than just a dozen models to the line really fills things out. >.>
If its the guy i am thinking of his name is robert shrewing. He usually dresses as a zentraedi officer. I know him and he does the odd demo in the oshawa area. He is also the guy that ran demos all of saturday and sunday at anime north for the whopping compensation of his entry to the con covered (about 100 dollars) and 50% off the one figure he bought for his 18 hours of time doing the demos and his 4 hours or so travel time over the two days.
He is a good guy and is.....a die hard robotech guy (though not necessarily palladium) and will do whatever he can to try to make rrt work.
Note the "Family Fun Pavilion" and the "Entrepreneurs' Avenue", but there isn't a "CCG lane" or "Board Game Alley" or "Sci-Fi Land".
And for those interested, Palladium is booth 823. You can see what I mean about if you go up and down, you might not get to pass PB twice, as the booths below (817, 809, 803) block one north/south passage.
Also, in years past, PB have had the double sized booth (think a combined 829/833), so it was a much smaller presence this year.
Note the "Family Fun Pavilion" and the "Entrepreneurs' Avenue", but there isn't a "CCG lane" or "Board Game Alley" or "Sci-Fi Land".
And for those interested, Palladium is booth 823. You can see what I mean about if you go up and down, you might not get to pass PB twice, as the booths below (817, 809, 803) block one north/south passage.
Also, in years past, PB have had the double sized booth (think a combined 829/833), so it was a much smaller presence this year.
looking at the map PB has a pretty decent location as in being on a main drag corner, but on the downside they are surrounded by companies that do a lot better then they do.
on a side note should I keep the Alpha's base like this or should I add grass to it? decided to stick with the paint scene since grass would look way too big against these minis.
So apparently the episode scenario book is a fan production EDITED by the Roach that he's hoping (like his initial rules 4 years ago) will be picked up by Palladium.
warboss wrote: While I have seen much better con setups (almost always from obsessive historical gamers, god bless them!), I think you're a bit harsh on that Lynx. It's better than anything I've seen for friendly tabletop games that didn't just depend on store terrain and it's definitely above average for gencon as well from my (again somewhat outdated) experience. It's certainly not as good as it could have been if he had spent hundreds of dollars and dozens of hours on it but I think it looks quite nice and is very creative as well.
I know. I appreciate the creativity and commitment to follow through on the idea. It's just that as a wargamer -- including being an obsessive historical gamer -- I know that with just a bit of material and logistical support from stores or manufacturers, that level of creativity and commitment can end up with a terrain board at a very high level.
With some money in raw material to work with and a storage solution, I can probably work up a permanent setup that has more fidelity and can easily be a centerpiece for conventions. Most miniature gamers appreciate a good looking terrain setup, and as iconic as the SDF-1 is, being able to fight ON it would have been a memorable thing for RRT players.
I just shake my head that PB apparently didn't bankroll a proper terrain project for use in conventions, instead opting for "as cheap as possible". While that's a laudable concept to pitch to consumers, it's yet another sign that PB doesn't really understand their target audience.
warboss wrote: While I have seen much better con setups (almost always from obsessive historical gamers, god bless them!), I think you're a bit harsh on that Lynx. It's better than anything I've seen for friendly tabletop games that didn't just depend on store terrain and it's definitely above average for gencon as well from my (again somewhat outdated) experience. It's certainly not as good as it could have been if he had spent hundreds of dollars and dozens of hours on it but I think it looks quite nice and is very creative as well.
I know. I appreciate the creativity and commitment to follow through on the idea. It's just that as a wargamer -- including being an obsessive historical gamer -- I know that with just a bit of material and logistical support from stores or manufacturers, that level of creativity and commitment can end up with a terrain board at a very high level.
With some money in raw material to work with and a storage solution, I can probably work up a permanent setup that has more fidelity and can easily be a centerpiece for conventions. Most miniature gamers appreciate a good looking terrain setup, and as iconic as the SDF-1 is, being able to fight ON it would have been a memorable thing for RRT players.
I just shake my head that PB apparently didn't bankroll a proper terrain project for use in conventions, instead opting for "as cheap as possible". While that's a laudable concept to pitch to consumers, it's yet another sign that PB doesn't really understand their target audience.
people PB was not behind the SDF-1 set up that is all work of Peter Pidrak, not Thomas Roache who was running the PB authorised RRT games in another location and they use Dropzone Commander buildings and map boards (not even same scale but close)for their set up, the SDF-1 was done by Peter Pidrak and had nothing to do with PB, you give PB way too much credit in displaying.
I don't think Lynx is giving PB ANY credit for that table, Asterios.
He's just saying that PB SHOULD have done that a long while ago, to a better standard, to promote the game WE gave them money for.
And in that I agree.
It's a shame that, once again, we get proof that the 'fans' * are doing more work to keep RRT alive than the 'professionals' behind it
* 'fans'. I hate that word. Short for fanatics, and sounds like all they do is blow air around - which is probably true for PB's "White Knight" brigade, but not me. I prefer "Appreciator"
Conrad Turner wrote: I don't think Lynx is giving PB ANY credit for that table, Asterios.
He's just saying that PB SHOULD have done that a long while ago, to a better standard, to promote the game WE gave them money for.
And in that I agree.
It's a shame that, once again, we get proof that the 'fans' * are doing more work to keep RRT alive than the 'professionals' behind it
* 'fans'. I hate that word. Short for fanatics, and sounds like all they do is blow air around - which is probably true for PB's "White Knight" brigade, but not me. I prefer "Appreciator"
Conrad Turner wrote: I don't think Lynx is giving PB ANY credit for that table, Asterios.
He's just saying that PB SHOULD have done that a long while ago, to a better standard, to promote the game WE gave them money for.
And in that I agree.
Agreed on all points:
- Lynx isn't creding PB for work they didn't do
- PB should have thrown a few $100s at him to make a higher-grade SDF-1 model to showcase RRT.
- Conrad has the right summary.
Personally, at this point I'd rather PB not piddle funds away for demo games and such, and instead focus on actually getting us Wave 2. I understand Lynx did that on his own initiative, and I suspect Roache's demo board was self-funded as well. I'd rather it stay that way, or else PB will find a dozen ways to squander the pittance they have left.
I think, at this point I'd even take a partial delivery, if PB would just fess up they screwed up and were out of funds. Not that I wouldn't try to get my pound of flesh from them, they have royally ticked me off with their feet-dragging and lies, but its better to have this KS declared dead than continue to drag it out even longer.
If Kevin was smart, he would offer all Robotech Kickstarter backers full credit refund on all in stock Palladium RPG books in place of wave 2.
This would allow them to continue to take their time without any looming lawsuits that get greater changes with every day passing.
MSRP verses publish cost is maybe 20% being for material already produced with money already collected ; (Collected $200 and losing $40 their cost in stock books)
so he would be coming out better in the long run if most agreed to this.
And also give them copies of free Rifts Savage PDFs as an apology.. This would not cost them anything because of digital material.
I think we will hear a bankruptcy announcement before hearing anything close to this.
Genoside07 wrote: If Kevin was smart, he would offer all Robotech Kickstarter backers full credit refund on all in stock Palladium RPG books in place of wave 2.
This would allow them to continue to take their time without any looming lawsuits that get greater changes with every day passing.
MSRP verses publish cost is maybe 20% being for material already produced with money already collected ; (Collected $200 and losing $40 their cost in stock books)
so he would be coming out better in the long run if most agreed to this.
And also give them copies of free Rifts Savage PDFs as an apology.. This would not cost them anything because of digital material.
I think we will hear a bankruptcy announcement before hearing anything close to this.
Hell no. Most people want nothing to do with the RPG.
Genoside07 wrote: If Kevin was smart, he would offer all Robotech Kickstarter backers full credit refund on all in stock Palladium RPG books in place of wave 2.
Hell no. Most people want nothing to do with the RPG.
Exactly. The last thing I want is Palladium RPG crap that I can get for pennies on the dollar via eBay.
Genoside07 wrote: If Kevin was smart, he would offer all Robotech Kickstarter backers full credit refund on all in stock Palladium RPG books in place of wave 2.
This would allow them to continue to take their time without any looming lawsuits that get greater changes with every day passing.
MSRP verses publish cost is maybe 20% being for material already produced with money already collected ; (Collected $200 and losing $40 their cost in stock books)
so he would be coming out better in the long run if most agreed to this.
And also give them copies of free Rifts Savage PDFs as an apology.. This would not cost them anything because of digital material.
I think we will hear a bankruptcy announcement before hearing anything close to this.
and what about those who do not want any of PB's other gak ? like their RPG line and such, what about those people who want what was promised? what about thsoe people who paid for something and don't want anything to do with the other thing? backers did not buy RPG stuff they bought Robotech minis and they want them.
Genoside07 wrote: If Kevin was smart, he would offer all Robotech Kickstarter backers full credit refund on all in stock Palladium RPG books in place of wave 2.
This would allow them to continue to take their time without any looming lawsuits that get greater changes with every day passing.
MSRP verses publish cost is maybe 20% being for material already produced with money already collected ; (Collected $200 and losing $40 their cost in stock books)
so he would be coming out better in the long run if most agreed to this.
And also give them copies of free Rifts Savage PDFs as an apology.. This would not cost them anything because of digital material.
I think we will hear a bankruptcy announcement before hearing anything close to this.
and what about those who do not want any of PB's other gak ? like their RPG line and such, what about those people who want what was promised? what about thsoe people who paid for something and don't want anything to do with the other thing? backers did not buy RPG stuff they bought Robotech minis and they want them.
Not getting our stuff sucks. But being continously led on suck even more. I would grudgingly take more RRT stock before RPG stock and I'd take more RRT over nothing/refund (and a refund before RPG stuff).
If the funds are gone (and they can prove they weren't misspent), can PB tell us we're out of luck and continue forward back to their old RPG tricks or do they have to offer refunds for the unfulfilled portion? I mean, KS *is* supposed to be an investment - if the declared it's tanked, must PB legally come up with refunds or is it a case that the debt is just written off? I can't exactly remember the KS terms other than "the creator must make every effort to fulfill all goals".
Some of the Gamer Goggles gencon videos are coming up on their channel over the past few days. As an example of the hard hitting type of journalism we should expect in the interview with the nefarious Kevin Siembieda, the video opens with "I forgot what I was going to ask you" and follows up with the poignant question of "You ran into a couple of delays that turned out to be blessings in disguise?"... on a kickstarter where the company watched the canadian dollar tank in value roughly 20% while they were delayed due to inappropriate digital sculpting/mould manufacturing issues but kept their money in CAD despite needing to pay the manufacturer in the US in (no shock) USD... and had to cut two different stretch goals that were funded with no replacement of those models in metal/resin despite their pre-funding promise to do exactly that in that situation. They spin in that they "added" extra bits but they didn't enlarge any sprues so the decision to cut two whole sprues/models from the rewards had no relation to how they organized the bits on the other sprues. So, yeah, a blessing in disguise with that delay. Don't get me wrong... the HG kickstarter even with the above (and the rougly one year delay) is set to deliver 90% of what they set out to a bit less than a year late and they were relatively open about the issues unlike this Robotech gak show... but it was certainly NOT a "blessing in disguise" to retract two funded stretch goals despite the leading softball question asked by the Matt. If you watch the other videos, you'll see the same softball unprepared "interview" style as well.
I'd expect given the pace that the Robotech interview will be up later today or tomorrow.
It's been tossed around a few times over the years that they could potentially try that with excess RRT product instead.
Yes, yes, yes, I'm aware that most people don't want more of it.
But PB owes the backers a big pile of RRT stuff. And they allegedly have a big pile of RRT wave 1 laying around.
If I were sitting there, and looked at the hundreds of thousands owed the backers, and the pallets of core and expansion boxes sitting on the warehouse floor collecting dust, it would make sense to at least try to work out how they could turn existing product into reduced obligations.
Yes, some backers would refuse this outright. Perhaps many. Perhaps a lot. But it would be a more realistic good faith effort to make good on what they owe us than anything else they've done for years.
This gets a lot messier when it comes to the items actually ordered from the pledge manager, granted. I doubt many (if any) backers would be willing to trade the MAC-II they've wanted for years for, I dunno, a pair of VTs more than the collection they already have.
So, again, because reading comprehension is hard for some people, I'm NOT saying this is a good or ideal or desirable outcome from the *Backers* perspective. But from *PB's* perspective, it would be a way to turn existing material into reduced obligations. And hell, free up some warehouse space, not that I imagine they have big piles of crates in every day demanding floorspace of their own, but product collecting dust isn't doing them any good. Having X,000 core boxes on hand isn't remotely useful if they're moving a paltry fraction of them per year.
Again again, I know that obviously this would be controversial, and would piss off a lot of people. It's not a perfect idea. But at this point I might accept a reasonable trade to make good on what they owe me.
Another 5 or 6 core boxes wouldn't nearly make up for what they do owe us in terms of value, but 'stuff that exists' holds some appeal over 'stuff that will probably never exist'. Not much different from accepting a refund that was for a fraction of the value, as some people do in bad investments or other situations (not that they'll even give us that much).
But we've talked about this stuff before. The only relevant detail is that... there aren't any relevant details. Seems they'll spend at least another year, probably two, probably more, possibly forever, failing to complete this.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, this thread is moving today.
Stormonu wrote: If the funds are gone (and they can prove they weren't misspent), can PB tell us we're out of luck and continue forward back to their old RPG tricks or do they have to offer refunds for the unfulfilled portion? I mean, KS *is* supposed to be an investment - if the declared it's tanked, must PB legally come up with refunds or is it a case that the debt is just written off? I can't exactly remember the KS terms other than "the creator must make every effort to fulfill all goals".
From my reading of the KS TOU, it's basically that they're expected to fulfill backer pledges, and if they can't, then they're supposed to refund what they couldn't do, or provide alternative compensation.
That said, I don't know if I've ever seen a 'partial failure' of this size. I know there've been scams and failures for some 100k+ campaigns, but does anyone know of, like, a 7 figure one that got partway out and then just declared it over?
There's the cooler one that is making people angry asking for more for shipping or whatever, and a few big ones that are still trudging along after years. I guess Ogre, and the random odds and ends they failed to produce but only a few people seem to care about (because I know it'll get brought up)?
Usually KS's seem to deliver, deliver with issues (not quite what people expected, not on time, crappy communications, whatever), or fail.
A 'partial failure' isn't something that comes up a lot, at least in the circles I've trodden on.
Forar wrote: It's been tossed around a few times over the years that they could potentially try that with excess RRT product instead.
Yes, yes, yes, I'm aware that most people don't want more of it.
But PB owes the backers a big pile of RRT stuff. And they allegedly have a big pile of RRT wave 1 laying around.
If I were sitting there, and looked at the hundreds of thousands owed the backers, and the pallets of core and expansion boxes sitting on the warehouse floor collecting dust, it would make sense to at least try to work out how they could turn existing product into reduced obligations.
Yes, some backers would refuse this outright. Perhaps many. Perhaps a lot. But it would be a more realistic good faith effort to make good on what they owe us than anything else they've done for years.
This gets a lot messier when it comes to the items actually ordered from the pledge manager, granted. I doubt many (if any) backers would be willing to trade the MAC-II they've wanted for years for, I dunno, a pair of VTs more than the collection they already have.
So, again, because reading comprehension is hard for some people, I'm NOT saying this is a good or ideal or desirable outcome from the *Backers* perspective. But from *PB's* perspective, it would be a way to turn existing material into reduced obligations. And hell, free up some warehouse space, not that I imagine they have big piles of crates in every day demanding floorspace of their own, but product collecting dust isn't doing them any good. Having X,000 core boxes on hand isn't remotely useful if they're moving a paltry fraction of them per year.
Again again, I know that obviously this would be controversial, and would piss off a lot of people. It's not a perfect idea. But at this point I might accept a reasonable trade to make good on what they owe me.
Another 5 or 6 core boxes wouldn't nearly make up for what they do owe us in terms of value, but 'stuff that exists' holds some appeal over 'stuff that will probably never exist'. Not much different from accepting a refund that was for a fraction of the value, as some people do in bad investments or other situations (not that they'll even give us that much).
But we've talked about this stuff before. The only relevant detail is that... there aren't any relevant details. Seems they'll spend at least another year, probably two, probably more, possibly forever, failing to complete this.
big problem with that option is cost of S&H lets face it I highly doubt PB could even afford to pay the Shipping costs to send out substitutes to even a small portion of the backers (say 10-20%) so even that is not an option. a refund might still be the cheaper option overall.
Swabby wrote: I fully expect that if wave 2 even partially happens we are going to see a request for more shipping money.
not sure if they could without treading into what is known as false advertising.
Forar wrote: This gets a lot messier when it comes to the items actually ordered from the pledge manager, granted. I doubt many (if any) backers would be willing to trade the MAC-II they've wanted for years for, I dunno, a pair of VTs more than the collection they already have.
I paid an extra $40 for that MAC-II. Give me my MAC-II or give me my money back.
ETA - if I'm going to take it in trade, Kevin or NMI can give me a 15 minutes in a MMA ring. I may not be as fast as I used to be, but I'll be bringing a lot of adrenaline. And considering the sheer number of people who'd want in on it, I wouldn't even care if my job was just to soften the them up for the next guy. Just watching the subsequent beatdown would be reward enough.
Asterios wrote: big problem with that option is cost of S&H lets face it I highly doubt PB could even afford to pay the Shipping costs to send out substitutes to even a small portion of the backers (say 10-20%) so even that is not an option. a refund might still be the cheaper option overall.
There is that as well. Which becomes a question of whether it's worth paying like $20 in shipping to fire off a core or two to a backer versus just refunding that backer $30 or $40. Within the US I think it might at least be possible to sort the math on that. Internationally I assume it'd fall apart without asking for more in shipping from backers, and yeah, it goes without saying that "paying them more for more stuff I don't really even want in the first place" holds even less appeal.
The idea is obviously predicated on turning stale product into reduced obligations, but the size and mass of that product and the realities of shipping make that less viable, certainly.
Unless they could find a shipping solution that would accept core boxes in payment...
And yeah, what John said. That's definitely a sticking point. When my friends and I paid in extra in the PM for Armored Battloids and MAC-II's (3 of them!) and Booster Sled Officer's Pods and whatnot, we definitely weren't looking to change that into more VT's and Pods (we've got 8 Battle Cry tiers between us, believe me, we're good for 'random chaff we don't use').
It's surely an unwieldy hypothetical. The shipping costs would probably tank it, at least for non-Americans, and it'd probably require admitting failure/fault more than they've ever shown the capacity to.
But even as an unlikely pipe dream, it'd still show more of a semblance of movement than they've managed in the last 2 years. Why not spice things up and embrace one impossible fantasy (compensation with more wave one!) over another (wave 2 ever existing!)? :-P
I would have let this KS go if I had not been stupid and bought a bunch of the wave 2 vaporware on the backerkit. I just HAD to go for MOAR shiny stuff.
I was kicking myself for not getting the Monster... not so much now but still.
In regards to those "hard hitting interviews" that is astoundingly bad.
Some notes, a bit of prep time... really guy.
I had meant to get around to seeing a few of his videos... nevermind.
I am pretty impressed how the "fans" continue to keep PB "relevant" at Gencon.
Oh well, they will be so exhausted we will probably not see anything for two weeks.
warboss wrote: Some of the Gamer Goggles gencon videos are coming up on their channel over the past few days. As an example of the hard hitting type of journalism we should expect in the interview with the nefarious Kevin Siembieda, the video opens with "I forgot what I was going to ask you" and follows up with the poignant question of "You ran into a couple of delays that turned out to be blessings in disguise?"... on a kickstarter where the company watched the canadian dollar tank in value roughly 20% while they were delayed due to inappropriate digital sculpting/mould manufacturing issues but kept their money in CAD despite needing to pay the manufacturer in the US in (no shock) USD... and had to cut two different stretch goals that were funded with no replacement of those models in metal/resin despite their pre-funding promise to do exactly that in that situation. They spin in that they "added" extra bits but they didn't enlarge any sprues so the decision to cut two whole sprues/models from the rewards had no relation to how they organized the bits on the other sprues. So, yeah, a blessing in disguise with that delay. Don't get me wrong... the HG kickstarter even with the above (and the rougly one year delay) is set to deliver 90% of what they set out to a bit less than a year late and they were relatively open about the issues unlike this Robotech gak show... but it was certainly NOT a "blessing in disguise" to retract two funded stretch goals despite the leading softball question asked by the Matt. If you watch the other videos, you'll see the same softball unprepared "interview" style as well.
I'd expect given the pace that the Robotech interview will be up later today or tomorrow.
Given everything, I suspect the only "blessing in disguise" they had was having the company start production near Gen Con so that they were able to divert said production to sell it at the con instead of shipping it first to backers as they said they would:
Heavy Gear KSFAQ wrote:These rewards will be for the models and components selected only. Final packaging and casting for retail will be completed only after the rewards due to our backers have been cast. This is to keep the total time to completion as short as possible
Okay, I think I figured out the bans and comment deletions at Kickstarter:
Basically any comments against Kickstarter gets those handed out.
I had made a comment that Kickstarter is organized in such a way it is incredibly hard to organize a legal action as backers: that post got deleted.
One other fellow claimed "Kickstarter is the new way to rip off people." and a smattering of deletions followed that trail.
It seems it is perfectly fine to direct your ire at the creator but not KS.
I should really not sound so surprised.
Ah, so that would be why my post about the RRTKS being a great success (because Kevin got $1.44M and delivered a fraction of what was promised and can continue to hold the money forever as long as he's "working on it") but I can refer to NMI as giving a Ruiz and it's fine?
Seriously guys... refunds? Kevin sending you moar wave 1 boxes? Even considering paying shipping for moar starter sets you do not want? lolmao...
The only thing I would accept as a possible compensation is to get all the 3D models of the wave 2 miniatures, to print them by myself and erase PB from my life, once and for all.
warboss wrote: Some of the Gamer Goggles gencon videos are coming up on their channel over the past few days. As an example of the hard hitting type of journalism we should expect in the interview with the nefarious Kevin Siembieda, the video opens with "I forgot what I was going to ask you" and follows up with the poignant question of "You ran into a couple of delays that turned out to be blessings in disguise?"... on a kickstarter where the company watched the canadian dollar tank in value roughly 20% while they were delayed due to inappropriate digital sculpting/mould manufacturing issues but kept their money in CAD despite needing to pay the manufacturer in the US in (no shock) USD... and had to cut two different stretch goals that were funded with no replacement of those models in metal/resin despite their pre-funding promise to do exactly that in that situation. They spin in that they "added" extra bits but they didn't enlarge any sprues so the decision to cut two whole sprues/models from the rewards had no relation to how they organized the bits on the other sprues. So, yeah, a blessing in disguise with that delay. Don't get me wrong... the HG kickstarter even with the above (and the rougly one year delay) is set to deliver 90% of what they set out to a bit less than a year late and they were relatively open about the issues unlike this Robotech gak show... but it was certainly NOT a "blessing in disguise" to retract two funded stretch goals despite the leading softball question asked by the Matt. If you watch the other videos, you'll see the same softball unprepared "interview" style as well.
I'd expect given the pace that the Robotech interview will be up later today or tomorrow.
He was actually asking for people to donate funds to pay for him to go to Gencon to produce these interviews.
He was actually asking for people to donate funds to pay for him to go to Gencon to produce these interviews.
Well, he did succeed at doing so in the past once so why not try again? If others are willing to fund your vacation with one game slots worth of work per day, why not take them up on the offer? He deserves any and all flak for his piss poor interview skills and general lack of preparation beyond packing a mic and camera...but I do admit he increased the sheer volume of interviews this year. Maybe paying patrons had specific requests about who to awkwardly stand next to in silence after asking 1-2 basic ubiquitous questions?
warboss wrote: Some of the Gamer Goggles gencon videos are coming up on their channel over the past few days. As an example of the hard hitting type of journalism we should expect in the interview with the nefarious Kevin Siembieda, the video opens with "I forgot what I was going to ask you" and follows up with the poignant question of "You ran into a couple of delays that turned out to be blessings in disguise?"... on a kickstarter where the company watched the canadian dollar tank in value roughly 20% while they were delayed due to inappropriate digital sculpting/mould manufacturing issues but kept their money in CAD despite needing to pay the manufacturer in the US in (no shock) USD... and had to cut two different stretch goals that were funded with no replacement of those models in metal/resin despite their pre-funding promise to do exactly that in that situation. They spin in that they "added" extra bits but they didn't enlarge any sprues so the decision to cut two whole sprues/models from the rewards had no relation to how they organized the bits on the other sprues. So, yeah, a blessing in disguise with that delay. Don't get me wrong... the HG kickstarter even with the above (and the rougly one year delay) is set to deliver 90% of what they set out to a bit less than a year late and they were relatively open about the issues unlike this Robotech gak show... but it was certainly NOT a "blessing in disguise" to retract two funded stretch goals despite the leading softball question asked by the Matt. If you watch the other videos, you'll see the same softball unprepared "interview" style as well.
I'd expect given the pace that the Robotech interview will be up later today or tomorrow.
He was actually asking for people to donate funds to pay for him to go to Gencon to produce these interviews.
think i would stand a better chance of getting donations to go confront Kevin about the lack of wave 2, provided it was filmed.
Seriously guys... refunds? Kevin sending you moar wave 1 boxes? Even considering paying shipping for moar starter sets you do not want? lolmao...
The only thing I would accept as a possible compensation is to get all the 3D models of the wave 2 miniatures, to print them by myself and erase PB from my life, once and for all.
Right now, that would work for me. Well, that or a meteor striking PB's wharehouse or something.
Not going to happen. If PB had the money for refunds, they'd have the money to produce wave 2(, 3, and 4.).
Not going to accept a core box for what I pledged for, It doesn't have anything in it that I wanted in the first place. I wanted the character models, SDF-1, and YF-4. Had that gone well, I'd have bought a MAC-II by now retail. But as I can't, I won't.
So far as I'm concerned, I am not impressed by them sending me the decal sheet I added in through the PM and not getting even my base pledge so far. They can <censored> send me what I <Bleep> pledged for, or they can refund me in full. If I have to send the decal sheet back, I will do - it's no <censored> good to me without the models to put them on.
Not going to happen. If PB had the money for refunds, they'd have the money to produce wave 2(, 3, and 4.).
That's not really an accurate assessment. They could conceivably have the money. And they're just too lazy/disorganized (This is so much work! And I don't wanna!), too stupid (We don't know what we're doing! What if we made them out of tapioca?), or too greedy (I want to keep most of the moneys! Must make it cheaper!), or a combination of the three, to finish it out.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think they have the money. But it's arguably possible. Given the progress they make on their RPG's (1/8 for first half 2016), the lazy/disorganized part wouldn't be a stretch.
Conrad Turner wrote: Not going to accept a core box for what I pledged for, It doesn't have anything in it that I wanted in the first place. I wanted the character models, SDF-1, and YF-4. Had that gone well, I'd have bought a MAC-II by now retail. But as I can't, I won't.
So far as I'm concerned, I am not impressed by them sending me the decal sheet I added in through the PM and not getting even my base pledge so far. They can <censored> send me what I <Bleep> pledged for, or they can refund me in full. If I have to send the decal sheet back, I will do - it's no <censored> good to me without the models to put them on.
Yeah, I can understand not wanting retail stock in exchange, especially after having seen what it actually looks like.
And while you're not the most financially put out (several people are owed thousands), you're definitely the backer that at least percentage wise, has been screwed the most (at least that we know of). "Lookit what I got for backing RRT for $100!" *waves decal sheet*. I wonder how Kevin would argue you've already gotten your money's worth (as he did to those BBB requests).
They might still have part of the money. But they still want to keep the lights on... and stringing backers instead of fulfilling a KS sure is cheaper.
Thanks for that Morgan. Best laugh I've had all week! [It's been a low week, it's true, but still, the best laugh]
I was only trying to state that:
Money for refunds = Money for production.
It is, as you say, entirely possible that they have not run out of money, but of enthusiasm and they just CBA on the rest of it.
But if I have a choice, I'd still rather have what I pledged for than a refund. I'd take either over years more wait, and if all else fails, I'd put up with local backers dancing on the ashes of PB's business.
I may just have to make a T-shirt slogan out of what you said in that last paragraph though.
n815e wrote: I guess it is indicative of where things are that NMI has begun buying models on Shapeways for the Wave 2 stuff.
How do you know this?
I would figure him of all people would hide that fact, unless some of the models shown at Gencon are his?
It may explain also how many of those creators have not seen a takedown request.
n815e wrote: I guess it is indicative of where things are that NMI has begun buying models on Shapeways for the Wave 2 stuff.
How do you know this?
I would figure him of all people would hide that fact, unless some of the models shown at Gencon are his?
It may explain also how many of those creators have not seen a takedown request yet until he gets his supposed orders.
It's PB's master plan, buy all the Shapeways stuff, send it to a printing company, and have them cut it into parts to send out to us. No Sculpting fees, and you can't sue them because they are the license holder, and the shapeways stuff is not produced with legal permissions.
Thanks guys.
Can always count on you lot to crank my paranoia up to 100.
This is something my friends would do, don't be going all sentimental on me now.
1/ PB don't want to tip their hand, so are only buying a few at a time. [so that once they have finished all the 'wave 2' pledges, they can sue and make a load of money back which will then allow them to produce more of wave 2 .... I mean 3, or is it 5?]
2/ Cutting up those models so we can glue them together is 'HARD' work, guys! [they must be making tons of mistakes and then having to wait another week to order more!]
n815e wrote: I guess it is indicative of where things are that NMI has begun buying models on Shapeways for the Wave 2 stuff.
How do you know this?
I would figure him of all people would hide that fact, unless some of the models shown at Gencon are his?
It may explain also how many of those creators have not seen a takedown request.
He posted on Mike's group that he bought some of those Gnerls.
You should take a screengrab of that, you know, for posterity... or when he cracks down on others doing the exact same thing like when he trolled the Ninja Division facebook page constantly by posting where's robotech questions on every post they made while at the same time cracking down on any dissent on Palladium's forums including asking the exact same question of Palladium.
n815e wrote: He posted on Mike's group that he bought some of those Gnerls.
Ah! My main weakness: I do not like Facebook.
I think it officially makes me an old guy... maybe even a luddite.
Thanks for the info... I am rather surprised by his admitting that.
warboss wrote: So they don't tolerate any criticism of their platform on their platform? No wonder they get along so swimmingly with Palladium!
well here is the problem, KickStarter has just put their big ole foot in their mouth, and its all because they wan't to give the illusion of control, yet do nothing, problem is they offer no other avenue of contact between backers and with several backers trying to organize a lawsuit against PB and with the KS forums being the only means of contact offered by KS, by banning such people KS is doing what is called Tortious interference (very loosely but still applicable) which is against the law, so KS has essentially made a boo boo, one that will require them to do one of two things, unban people or those imply such violations, or offer another avenue for backers to contact each other.
The guy I bought some old scale Heavy Gear minis from a few months back put it best... it isn't a message board but rather a splat board. No organization, just stream of consciousness that is very hard to follow with people throwing stuff at it to see what sticks. Add in that the OG internet nerd in me (the guy who used to carry around the netscape beta program on a 3.5" floppy) doesn't like the closed off real name website that facebook represents.
Asterios wrote: ... problem is they offer no other avenue of contact between backers and with several backers trying to organize a lawsuit against PB and with the KS forums being the only means of contact offered by KS, by banning such people KS is doing what is called Tortious interference (very loosely but still applicable) which is against the law, so KS has essentially made a boo boo, one that will require them to do one of two things, unban people or those imply such violations, or offer another avenue for backers to contact each other.
That day I got banned I thought I had a eureka moment when I realized that to contact the people within a given KS project was near impossible except through the forums and it was rather "cleverly" done.
As soon as I said anything around that line it was erase and ban.
So that seems to have hit a nerve over there.
If it as illegal thing to do... that is more interesting.
I figured Kickstarter really did not care but now I have experience a more active censoring which has cast serious doubt on me continuing with Kickstarter.
If the creator has his act together and means well, you would have no issues.
If there are problems and you are to try to take matters up with the creator: KS only wants you to do it individually not as a class action suit.
Weird. Ignorance is bliss until you find out a group is more "evil" than you thought.
warboss wrote: You should take a screengrab of that, you know, for posterity... or when he cracks down on others doing the exact same thing like when he trolled the Ninja Division facebook page constantly by posting where's robotech questions on every post they made while at the same time cracking down on any dissent on Palladium's forums including asking the exact same question of Palladium.
My first account on PB's forums got deleted for questioning NMI's behavior on the ND FB pages.
Asterios wrote: ... problem is they offer no other avenue of contact between backers and with several backers trying to organize a lawsuit against PB and with the KS forums being the only means of contact offered by KS, by banning such people KS is doing what is called Tortious interference (very loosely but still applicable) which is against the law, so KS has essentially made a boo boo, one that will require them to do one of two things, unban people or those imply such violations, or offer another avenue for backers to contact each other.
That day I got banned I thought I had a eureka moment when I realized that to contact the people within a given KS project was near impossible except through the forums and it was rather "cleverly" done.
As soon as I said anything around that line it was erase and ban.
So that seems to have hit a nerve over there.
If it as illegal thing to do... that is more interesting.
I figured Kickstarter really did not care but now I have experience a more active censoring which has cast serious doubt on me continuing with Kickstarter.
If the creator has his act together and means well, you would have no issues.
If there are problems and you are to try to take matters up with the creator: KS only wants you to do it individually not as a class action suit.
Weird. Ignorance is bliss until you find out a group is more "evil" than you thought.
yeah me thinks KS realized they are more responsible then they would like, like you said the bannings begin all of suddenly after a group organized Lawsuit was forming. not too mention could you imagine how this would look if a large class action lawsuit started against a project of this magnitude and what this game brought in and that KickStarter loves? the repercussions could pretty much kill KS and then some
Talizvar wrote: Thanks guys.
Can always count on you lot to crank my paranoia up to 100.
This is something my friends would do, don't be going all sentimental on me now.
Quick! A rush on Shapeways!!!
No problems, I enjoy making people paranoid.
Don't look now, but NMI is coming to take you away HaHa, he's coming to take you away HeeHee, Haha, HoHo, to a place where everthings always fine and you'll be happy to see those nice young people in their pretty white coats and he's coming to take you away HaHaAAAAA!
Seriously guys... refunds? Kevin sending you moar wave 1 boxes? Even considering paying shipping for moar starter sets you do not want? lolmao...
The only thing I would accept as a possible compensation is to get all the 3D models of the wave 2 miniatures, to print them by myself and erase PB from my life, once and for all.
I feel I was explicitly clear about these being hypothetical considerations that were A) imperfect and B) probably wouldn't fly anyway.
Not to get too defensive, but surely a little musing possible exit strategies PB might have was more interesting than another 20 pages of "man, PB sucks." "True that."
Kudos to those dedicated enough to make their own wave 2, but I already paid for that stuff. Paying for it again, be it Palladium or another company, holds little appeal no matter how we cut it.
If I was going to get an FPA, I'd just go to an existing mini at this point. And while on the matter, if I'm not mistaken the current recasting program going on involved doing exactly that; paying PB more money. However we slice it about saving money making copies, the starting point was hooking them up with more cash. LOL indeed.
I think it's reasonable for the backers to look at 2 years of stagnation and ponder potential alternatives, even if implausible or impossible. Wave 2 itself seems impossible, so wondering what else they might not do for us is pretty much par for the course.
Forar wrote: Kudos to those dedicated enough to make their own wave 2, but I already paid for that stuff. Paying for it again, be it Palladium or another company, holds little appeal no matter how we cut it.
Agreed... doubly so when I've got almost zero utility out of the half of my rewards that I did receive despite my efforts (one demo game with one unit each). I'll cheer on the folks that want to risk doubling down on this crappy hand we've been dealt but I won't be joining them in putting more chips on the table. You gotta know when to hold'em... know when to fold'em... know when to walk away...
Which is the other side of it. Be it as a 'public service' to avoid them doing the same thing again, or for vengeance, or whatever the reasoning, some people would be happy seeing Palladium shutter their doors.
I can't say that stance (on the revenge side) has ever held strong appeal, but if the ongoing lawsuit page pulled it off, I wouldn't shed any tears either.
But I am onboard with there being consequences for ones actions (or inaction), and them taking a big pile of cash and stringing people along for over 3 years now puts them further on the side of "feth those guys".
In my mind, the ideal solution is to get my stuff.
Based on what James and NMI have said, there is no money.
I can forgive honest mistakes, but buying up non-ks stock was a greedy gamble, quite literally a Tony Reidy-esque ponzi scheme and there should be consequences.
n815e wrote: In my mind, the ideal solution is to get my stuff.
Based on what James and NMI have said, there is no money.
I can forgive honest mistakes, but buying up non-ks stock was a greedy gamble, quite literally a Tony Reidy-esque ponzi scheme and there should be consequences.
Who is James? Also, can you take a screenshot of the comments and post them in the thread here or provide a link so we can update the first post?
It would take a lot of digging. On one of the FB groups, around a month or so ago, someone was accusing PB of spending all the money on non-RRT products and NMI, trying to defend PB, wrote that it was all spent on RRT products.
Are you sure he wasn't stumbling more towards "All the KS money spent [so far] has been spent on RRT" vs. "All the KS money has been spent [and there's nothing left]!"?
n815e wrote: It would take a lot of digging. On one of the FB groups, around a month or so ago, someone was accusing PB of spending all the money on non-RRT products and NMI, trying to defend PB, wrote that it was all spent on RRT products.
Ah, that's not the same thing then. He's plopped out the all money spent was spent on robotech line in the past. That doesn't mean he said all the money was spent. It's a perfectly slimey distinction (since it's not the same thing as spending it on the robotech REWARDS like they were supposed to) but you can't extrapolate it and then attribute that extrapolation to someone else.
edit: thanks for posting the pic with the quote above as it is good to have (not sure if you can delete your old posts on facebook or not). Since that was likely in response to an accusation about kevin spending it on something blatantly not robotech (like Rifts RPGs or worse), I don't see that as a tacit admission of the money being gone. YMMV but it's easy to just phrase something badly and have folks infer more than intended. Don't get me wrong.. I do believe that the money is gone and likely was MISPENT on dead stock for retail in a gamble by Palladium but that's not the smoking gun as far as I'm concerned.
n815e wrote: It would take a lot of digging. On one of the FB groups, around a month or so ago, someone was accusing PB of spending all the money on non-RRT products and NMI, trying to defend PB, wrote that it was all spent on RRT products.
Ah, that's not the same thing then. He's plopped out the all money spent was spent on robotech line in the past. That doesn't mean he said all the money was spent. It's a perfectly slimey distinction (since it's not the same thing as spending it on the robotech REWARDS like they were supposed to) but you can't extrapolate it and then attribute that extrapolation to someone else.
The quote, which I found and posted, seems to indicate that all of the funds were spent.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Carmen Bellaire expects to Kickstart the Rifts® board game from Rogue Heroes LLC sometime early next year. Of course, Carmen and his crew are doing all the heavy lifting. Palladium’s role is making sure the project is true to Rifts® (it is, as Carmen knows Rifts® inside and out) and approval of finished art, miniatures, design elements, text and rules. We have also pointed artists at the project. I think we are as excited to see this game launch as anyone. And what we have seen so far, wow.
NMI Ruiz (can't recall his first name) is the most infamous palladium forum mod who traditionally banned people for simply posting embarassing yet completely factual information about palladium. He's one of their biggest apologists and volunteers for them at conventions. He's also the head of the demo volunteer program for Palladium that includes Robotech yet butchered the rules at every step of the game when doing an on camera "demo" at the last palladium open house.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Some key parts from the update (in case they're not ninja'd while I read it and type this)
Of course, Carmen and his crew are doing all the heavy lifting.
Regarding the board game mentioned above.... hmm... where have I heard that line years ago? oh yeah, ninja division and robotech.
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Status Report Palladium Books is gearing up for the relaunch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and the release of Wave 2 pieces in 2017. Getting a few quotes and focusing in on a number of areas for Robotech® RPG Tactics™. This ain’t just talk. You will be seeing things beginning to appear on the Palladium Books website and DriveThruRPG (like the Wave 2 paper game pieces that went up a couple weeks ago), Wave 2 cards (first for download, then for print on demand), the RRT rules, and more, while we move toward actual physical release. Along those lines, fans we spoke with were happy to see the rough draft for a RRT scenario book and hear our plans for more Robotech® RPG sourcebooks coming in 2017. I also spoke to some folks about helping us get organized play events together. We will be offering details and hard release dates when we have them.
So wave 2 is officially a no go for 2016 straight from one end of the horse's digestive tract. In other surprising news, water is wet. Oh, and repromising the same gak they promised in the summer of 2015. Pidrak's SDF terrain looks very impressive from the back, moreso than from the front.
n815e wrote: It would take a lot of digging. On one of the FB groups, around a month or so ago, someone was accusing PB of spending all the money on non-RRT products and NMI, trying to defend PB, wrote that it was all spent on RRT products.
Ah, that's not the same thing then. He's plopped out the all money spent was spent on robotech line in the past. That doesn't mean he said all the money was spent. It's a perfectly slimey distinction (since it's not the same thing as spending it on the robotech REWARDS like they were supposed to) but you can't extrapolate it and then attribute that extrapolation to someone else.
The quote, which I found and posted, seems to indicate that all of the funds were spent.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Carmen Bellaire expects to Kickstart the Rifts® board game from Rogue Heroes LLC sometime early next year. Of course, Carmen and his crew are doing all the heavy lifting. Palladium’s role is making sure the project is true to Rifts® (it is, as Carmen knows Rifts® inside and out) and approval of finished art, miniatures, design elements, text and rules. We have also pointed artists at the project. I think we are as excited to see this game launch as anyone. And what we have seen so far, wow.
Where have we heard this before?
Notice in the Update that now all RRT is at a 40% discount? Another year we'll be at 50%.......
n815e wrote: In my mind, the ideal solution is to get my stuff.
Based on what James and NMI have said, there is no money.
I can forgive honest mistakes, but buying up non-ks stock was a greedy gamble, quite literally a Tony Reidy-esque ponzi scheme and there should be consequences.
Who is James? Also, can you take a screenshot of the comments and post them in the thread here or provide a link so we can update the first post?
Me warboss lol
Automatically Appended Next Post: Best part...they essentially threw aside a guy who had been developing a rifts board game for nearly a decade and had run it at open houses for fan friend freelancer carmen bellaires game instead...the same guy that compleyely rewrote the rrt rules because nd's rules were crap (his words) and was taking credit for the rrt conventional rules until mike pointed out over 80% was stuff he himself wrote and sent to kevin months before.
Ah, I never connected the name. I always mentally pronounced it like "jams" figuring you were a big time music fan (or alternately a marmelade afficionado!).
Wasn't the board game being peddled at the open houses a Talisman clone? That's at least what was posted a while back somewhere (probably over in NMI's hermit kingdom). I'm curious if the board game will have changed much rulewise with the switch over to Carmen.
Notice in the Update that now all RRT is at a 40% discount? Another year we'll be at 50%.......
No, I didn't. I literally stopped at what I quoted since history has shown me that nothing useful ever comes after. I did check though after you pointed it out above and in all fairness it is a "flash" sale because, golly gosh darn it, they're so excited about Robotech!
Carmen Bellaire expects to Kickstart the Rifts® board game from Rogue Heroes LLC sometime early next year. Of course, Carmen and his crew are doing all the heavy lifting. Palladium’s role is making sure the project is true to Rifts® (it is, as Carmen knows Rifts® inside and out) and approval of finished art, miniatures, design elements, text and rules. We have also pointed artists at the project. I think we are as excited to see this game launch as anyone. And what we have seen so far, wow.
Where have we heard this before?
yeah don't expect PB to try another KS, problem is its a well known entity they own so I don't think it will do so good even if KickStarter allows it. and even if they do how many will point a finger towards the failed RRT project? Savage Rifts may have worked but it was under a well known banner of delivering, unlike Carmen.
"Carmen Bellaire expects to Kickstart the Rifts® board game from Rogue Heroes LLC sometime early next year. Of course, Carmen and his crew are doing all the heavy lifting. Palladium’s role is making sure the project is true to Rifts® (it is, as Carmen knows Rifts® inside and out) and approval of finished art, miniatures, design elements, text and rules."
jaymz wrote: Who knows. I will wsit for it to go retail then wait until it goes cheap from lack of interest from those not in the ks campaign (sound familiar)
We'll probably find out sooner during the actual crowdfunding if they post a gameplay video. I would have killed for a nice red full conversion borg mini in the mid 90's but not now after this robotech debacle (the same reason I didn't even fund the SW kickstarter even for $1.00 despite wanting coherent rules for rifts for almost 25 years).
I hope that Rifts boardgame isnt the Talisman/Relic ripoff from several years ago which they got called out on. That was by Bellaire too and hes known for copying other people's stuff.
What choice did they have? They couldn't fall back on the reliable "Treachery of..." funding scheme without admitting they misspent all the money.
They wouldn't be able to secure a loan.
Poker decks only generate so much change.
They couldn't do another kickstarter under Palladium's brand.
Get sucker Carmen to sign up for complete liability and launch "his own" kickstarter!
n815e wrote: What choice did they have? They couldn't fall back on the reliable "Treachery of..." funding scheme without admitting they misspent all the money.
They wouldn't be able to secure a loan.
Poker decks only generate so much change.
They couldn't do another kickstarter under Palladium's brand.
Get sucker Carmen to sign up for complete liability and launch "his own" kickstarter!
wonders if Carmen realizes PB will hang him out to dry and then some.
Palladium Books is gearing up for the relaunch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and the release of Wave 2 pieces in 2017. Getting a few quotes and focusing in on a number of areas for Robotech® RPG Tactics™.
Hahahahahahaha, heh, ha, whew...
This ain’t just talk.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I also spoke to some folks about helping us get organized play events together.
So first it was Ninja Division, then it was the Megaversal Ambassadors, now it's 'some folks' who will be doing 'organized play' on a game that 'won't have new releases for at least 2.5-3+ years'.
Good luck with that.
We will be offering details and hard release dates when we have them.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Funny how they're willing to share info with random fans at Gencon, but backer updates haven't had substantial details in years (aside from the token yearly renders or 3D prints/prototypes). Guess giving a Scrooge McDuck money pit of cash wasn't enough, and having expectations of communication and professionalism went beyond the pale. For shame!
UPDATE: Robotech® anime is a Top Rated series on Crackle
Crackle is a rapidly growing, free, digital network that has been airing the original Robotech® episodes with tremendous fan response. The Robotech® TV series has consistently ranked as Crackle’s Number One Anime and often in the overall Top Ten, giving a new generation a chance to discover Robotech®. I wanted to share this information with you so you can binge watch Robotech® from beginning to end or catch your favorite episodes anytime. You can find great inspiration for your Robotech® games watching old episodes.
Oh, goody, people can go binge their favourite Robotech episodes! Find inspiration for their games! As long as their games and dreams would include either the (not quite) dozen figures that are at retail, or 3D modeling courses and a Shapeways account.
I'll believe it when they have more than empty promises of progress to share. But hey, at least they're (presumably) lying to our faces again. Been a while since they even did us the courtesy of that.
Edit: also, this sale being "unprecedented" is factually incorrect. CSI has had as steep and steeper sales in the past, often around Black Friday or Christmas, but occasionally out of the blue an expansion will drop to like 2/3 off (presumably as they catch sight of some stuff sitting on a shelf and decide to try to get it moving, even at a loss).
Swabby wrote: I didn't catch this from the report the first time in regards to the gencon SDF-1 game:
"! The SDF-1 was an impressive sight to see, and from all accounts, the five hour long game was epic fun"
????! 5 hours?
Just for reference, the typical gencon game "slot" is four hours. While you can go less (they did have 2 hour slots available in the last few years I went but they tended to be board games, card games, and quick demos), the typical game when I was going whether RPG or minis was four hours and ran right up until the time expired even finishing organically.
what I find interesting is why doesn't PB do the Boardgame Kickstarter themselves? could it be when the kickstarter is done they will have yet to deliver wave 2?
and for those who think the money from that project will be used for wave 2, LoL that is too funny, PB is just using Kickstarter to scam people out of more money plain and simple going for their last hurrah before declaring bankruptcy at the end of next year.
I really worry because the current miniatures they have for Rifts are really bad..
Even with someone else doing it..
Also I originally backed the RRT in the mind that only involvement Palladium had with the game
was insuring licencing for robotech, I am sure the direction Ninja Division was going would spend the most
money and get it the best result and fastest.. Then big Kevin stepped in and said how hard could it be
we can do it better and cheaper...so I can use the "extra" money to buy more cartoon movie cells..
We are exactly a year off from Gen Con.. most manufactures try to have new product release for it.
I really don't see it happening... I would gamble to say... we will see a bankruptcy instead
The scale debate seems to be over even before Kevin bothered to ask KS supporters about it. IMO it is obvious that Southern Cross and especially New Generation need to be in a larger scale. But of course this is not obvious to everyone. The real issue is, Kevin has clearly already made a decision here. It is IMO the right decision. It just kind of rankles that he's framing an attempt to explain the decision he already made as an invitation to discuss what the right decision should be.
That style is behind a lot of the troubles with this KS.
Similarly, here we have promises for all kinds of new stuff from GHQ ...
... but where is the evidence? Where are the scultps? Are they complete? If so, why not show them? If not, why not and when will the be done? If there are sculpts, are the molds ready? If so, where are the samples? Anything painted? If not, why not?
There may be very good reasons for not having any of this information to go along with the promises.
But KS backers don't know those reasons.
Explaining this sort of thing is called transparency. My take-away from Part 2 is this "re-started" conversation is probably not going to involve much transparency beyond "here's my decision and why I made it" despite the lip service to those of us who gave him so much money years ago.
Thinking over Parts 1 and 2, my overall conclusion is ...
Did anyone edit this update/these updates? I mean, someone outside of the same old confidants. My feeling is, PB continues to be a closed system and this update shows Kevin is not actually open to perspectives beyond his inner circle.
I have some Southern Cross 1/285 and it works perfectly fine.
was looking thru all those pictures on the PBWU and realised I think I have more RRT(official and not official) minis then all the ones shown in those pics
I guess one good thing about this colossal cluster is that I've been able to go to a local store and buy extra expansion sets for $12-15 Canadian on a whim for the last 6 months. The stock hasn't changed except for what I've taken since they put it on clearance, so I've been in no rush.
My local store is extremely slow adding stuff to clearance. They have an unchanging stock of RTT, DUST Tactics, and even Starship Troopers, all taking up shelf space at full MSRP.
Brookhurst, War House, or both?
Brookhurst. Where is war house?
War House is on WIllow in Long Beach. It's the one that feels like you're in an old-timey adult bookstore, not one of the newer "couples-friendly" stores.
Brookhurst, I'll wait for Thanksgiving. First, if I'm still interested. Second, because everything goes on sale at that time. Last year, Brookhurst moved some RTT sets - there were more on the shelf when I arrived, than when I left!
I'll hold out some hope for a sale, then. Funnily enough, Brookhurst's collection of DUST just disappeared, yet RTT still sits there, knitting her clearance blanket all day and undoing the stitches all night.
Are you saying War House is even seedier than Brookhurst? My wife feels more comfortable shopping at Spanky's alone than entering Brookhurst with me. The place creeps her out.
Saw a person providing links to the PB Rifts cards on the Savage Worlds: Rifts KS.
I mentioned the RRT backer issues and to "try" not to send money directly to PB.
Usual comments to not "wreck people's fun" and "this KS has nothing to do with it", then I reminded them the items are NOT KS but PB's "me too!" product.
It boils down to views of "that is your problem, don't make it mine"... fair enough I guess.
Makes me hesitant to bother with the impending board game.
I suspect with miniatures involved it will launch in a similar fashion to RRT.
I think Palladium had found the perfect niche for their work ethic: fan-boys will ignore and do many things to get what they covet.
"It is like you want them to close their doors or something, then you would NEVER get your stuff."
That is the point if they cannot keep a consumer agreement: they DESERVE to be shut down for coercing money from me and keeping it without the agreed compensation.
jaymz wrote: Taking not coercing.....as loathe as i am to say anything in palladiums favour, none of us were coerced.
well technically coerced, we were coerced with the promise of mouth watering detailed minis that PB would not be involved in except to insure the IP of the product and that the project would be handled by another company, now which game KickStarter was I talking about again I forget?
True.. although it was taken under false pretenses (98% done, coming in roughly 8-9 months, and Palladium would be hands off). Even *if* Palladium didn't actually lie but rather were simply full of gak in their promises, that level of ignorance is willful and doesn't indicate a good faith effort on their part prior to taking the money. I can google a few things online and promise folks that I'll take pics for them next year of the lunar surface after arriving on my popsicle stick and rubber band spacecraft but that doesn't mean I'm not being honest about the situation nor responsible for refunds 5 years from now when I'm still "working" on the project (yum... ice cream!).
Taken under false pretense or any other reason is still not coersion and rick you of all people should not be arguing it, especially with all you "legal expertise".
In the end we all CHOSE to give them.our money. We were not forced which is what coersion is.
Dammit now i have had to say something twice to palladiums benefit. You guys suck lol
Automatically Appended Next Post: And to add no we were not technically coerced. The word you are looking for is enticed....or duped....or lured. Not coerced.
jaymz wrote: Taking not coercing.....as loathe as i am to say anything in palladiums favour, none of us were coerced.
You are quite right the proper definition for "coercing" is by threat now that I looked.
I was meaning around the line of being told untruths for them to get what they wanted.
People are really touchy about the word "lies" but with Trump about, the new words are "strategically spread false information" or "unbound optimism".
<edit> To be fair to the candidates, Hillary would say that they had fully planned to do as promised back then but cannot seem to find evidence of them now.
I am merely making sure proper terms are used. You try to tell a judge you were coerced and you will be coerced to leave the courtroom for wasting the judges time
Hmmm...
Doing a bit of word lawyering.
There was the "threat" we would never see Robotech as a tabletop game unless the KS was supported.
But "threat" in the definition is bodily harm not being made upset we do not get our man toys.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Glad we have that word meaning clear.
I would hate to be coerced into letting this off-topic be dropped.
jaymz wrote: I am merely making sure proper terms are used. You try to tell a judge you were coerced and you will be coerced to leave the courtroom for wasting the judges time
once again it is a technicality, we wanted Robotech miniatures and the only way it seems to get them at the time was thru the RRT project (here is where the coercion part comes into play) in other words if we did not back the project we would not get the minis, it was an either/or? they basically held us up at gun point and said back this project or nothing.
thing about coercion is it is the act of forcing and or threatening someone to do something they would not do, now how many would have given PB money if they said they were in charge of the project?
