Tank_Dweller wrote: Do we know how the chaos minis compare size wise to the existing range... i'm just wondering if new stuff for existing armies will blend or not.
pretre wrote:Considering it explicitly says you cheated to do it, you'd be hard pressed to pull this off in any competitive setting. Most events have rules against cheating.
RAW it doesn't say you cheated. It says you are "branded a cheat".
Which is funny, because using Fateweaver to change the result to a result of your choice is actually RAW legal and basically guarantees a win every time.
Fun times.
tjkopena wrote:
Then, offer your opponent a bribe (this can be anything you want to offer). If your opponent accepts your bribe, the chosen effect takes place – otherwise, nothing happens. Players are free to haggle over the offered bribe, or propose a counter-offer...
"I want that unit to flee from the table. Bribe? I will bribe you with your own teeth, in your mouth."
Delicate Swarm wrote:Do we know if GW is okay? Has someone checked on them?
The last couple of games were "Grandma calling you the wrong name." But its getting to be like when Grandma puts her cat in the freezer, and you need to decide if Grandma need help, or if that's just, like, her "cat freezer."
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: Am I missing something here, or is this new "warhammer" literally just running and charging at the enemy with pretty much zero subtlety?
It's like 10-15% of last edition.
Warhammer: Lobotomy Edition
I know they continue to tell us that they're a model company first and a games company second, but this is ridiculous.
I've been playing just with the starter set and been pleasantly surprised by the subtlety, or strategy so far. Gets a lot better i think with more and different figures. Not a lot of magic and shooting in the starter set, but a lot of special abilities.
And of course, Khorne should be running screaming at the enemy
Mikhalia, can you take a peek at the fluff section and see if the eternal shoot bolts of lightning and are armored in sigmarite? See my above post for why.
Condensing much fluff: When the old world exploded all that was left was it's molten core, and Sigmar clinging to it as it hurtled through the heavens. Over thousands of years, it cools, It still floats near Sigmars land/plane that he rules. They refer to the metal from the last bit of the old world now as 'Sigmarite'. Grungi and Sigmar forge the armor from it. Mortals heroes are saved from death and their souls are reforged to become the Stormcast Elementals. Much reference to "lightning and magic" in their souls/veins. Descending via lightnight bolts, etc. These guys are basically the divine counterpoint to chaos. Their entire theme seems to be lightning.
but no reference to "bolters" or really shooting lightning. The winged guys have a ranged attack of throwing their magical lightning enfused hammers, the guys with double handed weapons hit really hard on a 6 to hit, doing two mortal wounds. Messed me up bad last game The fluff is they hit with a lightning/thunder effect.
They are really trying for the Stormcast Eternals to be the holy/mystical warriors of the worlds. Fluff is ok for me. Models are beautiful.
buddha wrote: This isn't a game without points, formations, or some way to level opponents. That's like saying you can play monopoly but you can just take as many properties as you want. Also money. And pieces. So buy multiple monopoly boxes. o.0
A much better comparison is Chainmail by Garry Gygax, the predecessor to D&D, which used(and had rules for) miniatures.
The campaign nature of sigmar means GW wants its players to follow a story and pay for that content, OR to build their own stories to play.
buddha wrote: This isn't a game without points, formations, or some way to level opponents. That's like saying you can play monopoly but you can just take as many properties as you want. Also money. And pieces. So buy multiple monopoly boxes. o.0
A much better comparison is Chainmail by Garry Gygax, the predecessor to D&D, which used(and had rules for) miniatures.
The campaign nature of sigmar means GW wants its players to follow a story and pay for that content, OR to build their own stories to play.
So I can pay to buy the models AND then pay repeatedly to buy the rules to use those models each game.
-or-
Build my own stories with no basis or guidelines for a fair story.
Sounds awesome.
I maintain GW knew they couldn't sell these rules, that's why they're free. Just like they knew they could never get a clean rules for bases, hence why GW tries to ignore them in favor of the worst measuring rule in existence.
pretre wrote:Considering it explicitly says you cheated to do it, you'd be hard pressed to pull this off in any competitive setting. Most events have rules against cheating.
RAW it doesn't say you cheated. It says you are "branded a cheat".
Which is funny, because using Fateweaver to change the result to a result of your choice is actually RAW legal and basically guarantees a win every time.
Fun times.
tjkopena wrote:
Then, offer your opponent a bribe (this can be anything you want to offer). If your opponent accepts your bribe, the chosen effect takes place – otherwise, nothing happens. Players are free to haggle over the offered bribe, or propose a counter-offer...
"I want that unit to flee from the table. Bribe? I will bribe you with your own teeth, in your mouth."
Delicate Swarm wrote:Do we know if GW is okay? Has someone checked on them?
The last couple of games were "Grandma calling you the wrong name." But its getting to be like when Grandma puts her cat in the freezer, and you need to decide if Grandma need help, or if that's just, like, her "cat freezer."
oh good god lol
Funny that people are even discussing the fateweaver/skaven combo allready. Unfortunately, if you try to roll 2d6, you can't get a 13. Changing the result of one of the dice won't do it either.
What I don't is how nowhere in the rules does it give any kind of limitations on heroes. I can legally field an army of 15 Grimgors . How on earth did GW overlook this? Like, not including points was bad enough, but simply stating that you can't have more than one named hero in an army surely isn't that hard?!
Funny that people are even discussing the fateweaver/skaven combo allready. Unfortunately, if you try to roll 2d6, you can't get a 13. Changing the result of one of the dice won't do it either.
Doesn't matter. The dice are immaterial. He can change the result of a roll to the result of his choice. "I rolled a 7, but the table has a 13. I choose that result instead. I win. GG"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote: What I don't is how nowhere in the rules does it give any kind of limitations on heroes. I can legally field an army of 15 Grimgors . How on earth did GW overlook this? Like, not including points was bad enough, but simply stating that you can't have more than one named hero in an army surely isn't that hard?!
_Tim?
The mistake here is thinking GW cared, at all, about the rules. They didn't.
What I want to know is how people are playtesting the Oldhammer Warscrolls, they don't seem to have the little "stat rose" thing that tells you how many wounds they have, what their armour is etc. Am I missing something?
Yodhrin wrote: What I want to know is how people are playtesting the Oldhammer Warscrolls, they don't seem to have the little "stat rose" thing that tells you how many wounds they have, what their armour is etc. Am I missing something?
Maybe update your adobe? They're showing up for me.
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote: What I don't is how nowhere in the rules does it give any kind of limitations on heroes. I can legally field an army of 15 Grimgors . How on earth did GW overlook this? Like, not including points was bad enough, but simply stating that you can't have more than one named hero in an army surely isn't that hard?!
_Tim?
They didn't overlook it. They want to sell you 15 Grimgors....
I typed out several snarky responses to this bait, but I've decided I'm going to actually try and make an effort to convey my view on this, even though I fully expect to be rewarded with a series of "get over it, lulz" and "lighten up broskie!" posts.
....
For you this kind of "mandated fun" isn't a problem, because if you enjoyed that kind of humour as part of your gaming experience anyway nothing has really changed for you, or if it has changed it's not in a way that causes you any trouble. For folk like myself, or for just generally socially awkward or shy people(who, you might have noticed, are fairly prevalent in geekdom), it's a genuine impediment. Just as, for you, lack of a ramp into a building causes no problems, but is a fairly big deal for a wheelchair user.
This is a serious reply, not snark. You're right. They don't care about you or people with ASD. But don't take it personally - they don't care about the tournament players either (more of them) or people who want a more "adult" pick up game (as in people who bring 1500-or-2k-point armies to the FLGS or Local GW or Club for a pick up game. They care about one thing - sales and dollars. This game is designed very much for the atmosphere of being sold in the (over-)excited atmosphere of a GW store, with "Unbound Everywhere, all the time" for the rules and ease of pick up and play with whichever models you like, etc.
Ultimately though, you, ASD, Tournament Players, people like me - we're not important. It's designed to sell Sigmarines and starter sets and the odd box off the shelf to the new players who walk in.
It's not the end, though - or it doesn't have to be. You can still play 3rd-8th edition, or KoW, or the ShieldWolf game. You'll just have to deal with the fact that you're welcome to play this new game, but they don't care about your individual foibles. Like being a leftie in a right-handed world.
Me? I'm planning to buy two sets because I like the look of the models, and will use them in KoW - and might occasionally play Age of Silliness with close friends in my own home. Other than that, my main concern is that they don't discontinue too much of the WHFB range before I can get hold of the last models I want to buy. Now I'm off to a local gaming forum to see if people are flogging off thir WHFB armies in despair.
Funny that people are even discussing the fateweaver/skaven combo allready. Unfortunately, if you try to roll 2d6, you can't get a 13. Changing the result of one of the dice won't do it either.
Doesn't matter. The dice are immaterial. He can change the result of a roll to the result of his choice. "I rolled a 7, but the table has a 13. I choose that result instead. I win. GG"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote: What I don't is how nowhere in the rules does it give any kind of limitations on heroes. I can legally field an army of 15 Grimgors . How on earth did GW overlook this? Like, not including points was bad enough, but simply stating that you can't have more than one named hero in an army surely isn't that hard?!
_Tim?
The mistake here is thinking GW cared, at all, about the rules. They didn't.
That 's how you see the rules. It's obvious to me that you choose from the possible result of d6 dice and some would argue that changing the dice would count as applying modifier to the roll, which you can't do with screaming bell.
Yodhrin wrote: What I want to know is how people are playtesting the Oldhammer Warscrolls, they don't seem to have the little "stat rose" thing that tells you how many wounds they have, what their armour is etc. Am I missing something?
Maybe update your adobe? They're showing up for me.
Don't use adobe, seems it was some weird interaction between Firefox and Sumatra Reader, they work fine if I download them.
buddha wrote: This isn't a game without points, formations, or some way to level opponents. That's like saying you can play monopoly but you can just take as many properties as you want. Also money. And pieces. So buy multiple monopoly boxes. o.0
A much better comparison is Chainmail by Garry Gygax, the predecessor to D&D, which used(and had rules for) miniatures.
The campaign nature of sigmar means GW wants its players to follow a story and pay for that content, OR to build their own stories to play.
As somebody who payed both Chainmail and its successor, Swords and Spells (a D&D supplement) I can tell you have no clue what you are talking about. Chainmail included a very complex points based system and was incredibly balanced.
To compare AoS to Chainmail is to mock a highly advanced and well developed war game system. Chainmail would run circles around AoS. I'm disgusted that the two would be uttered in the same breath.
Yodhrin wrote: Wow. I'm actually a bit surprised so many people find the idea of a game system that requires you to behave like a five year old appealing.
Yeah... makes me wonder what their actual target demographic is. At 14, i would have hated this stuff even more than i do now, simply because of being more concerned with not being embarrassingly immature etc.
buddha wrote: This isn't a game without points, formations, or some way to level opponents. That's like saying you can play monopoly but you can just take as many properties as you want. Also money. And pieces. So buy multiple monopoly boxes. o.0
A much better comparison is Chainmail by Garry Gygax, the predecessor to D&D, which used(and had rules for) miniatures.
The campaign nature of sigmar means GW wants its players to follow a story and pay for that content, OR to build their own stories to play.
As somebody who payed both Chainmail and its successor, Swords and Spells (a D&D suppliment) I can tell you have no clue what you are talking about. Chainmail included a very complex points based system and was incredibly balanced.
To compare AoS to Chainmail is to mock a highly advanced and well developed war game system. Chainmail would run circles around AoS. I'm disgusted that the two would be uttered in the same breath.
Nah man, you don't get it. Back then, man, like, we were telling stories!
I typed out several snarky responses to this bait, but I've decided I'm going to actually try and make an effort to convey my view on this, even though I fully expect to be rewarded with a series of "get over it, lulz" and "lighten up broskie!" posts.
....
For you this kind of "mandated fun" isn't a problem, because if you enjoyed that kind of humour as part of your gaming experience anyway nothing has really changed for you, or if it has changed it's not in a way that causes you any trouble. For folk like myself, or for just generally socially awkward or shy people(who, you might have noticed, are fairly prevalent in geekdom), it's a genuine impediment. Just as, for you, lack of a ramp into a building causes no problems, but is a fairly big deal for a wheelchair user.
This is a serious reply, not snark. You're right. They don't care about you or people with ASD. But don't take it personally - they don't care about the tournament players either (more of them) or people who want a more "adult" pick up game (as in people who bring 1500-or-2k-point armies to the FLGS or Local GW or Club for a pick up game. They care about one thing - sales and dollars. This game is designed very much for the atmosphere of being sold in the (over-)excited atmosphere of a GW store, with "Unbound Everywhere, all the time" for the rules and ease of pick up and play with whichever models you like, etc.
Ultimately though, you, ASD, Tournament Players, people like me - we're not important. It's designed to sell Sigmarines and starter sets and the odd box off the shelf to the new players who walk in.
It's not the end, though - or it doesn't have to be. You can still play 3rd-8th edition, or KoW, or the ShieldWolf game. You'll just have to deal with the fact that you're welcome to play this new game, but they don't care about your individual foibles. Like being a leftie in a right-handed world.
Me? I'm planning to buy two sets because I like the look of the models, and will use them in KoW - and might occasionally play Age of Silliness with close friends in my own home. Other than that, my main concern is that they don't discontinue too much of the WHFB range before I can get hold of the last models I want to buy. Now I'm off to a local gaming forum to see if people are flogging off thir WHFB armies in despair.
I get that, it just doesn't make any sense to me. They can do the whole "unbound erry day", "enthusiasm" kick in their stores with games that have points and rules that don't make groups of people uncomfortable, I know that for a fact because I used to attend exactly those kinds of events when I was a wee kid. They could have included points, or even just some basic balancing mechanism like having a Warscroll specify the size of the unit, and they could push all the shouty-shouty nonsense as suggested ways to play in their usual gushing WD editorials or the 96-page fluff & extras booklet.
It's hard not to take it personally when it very much appears that their intent was to write the rules in such a way as to say "you're not welcome here" to anyone who doesn't fit their idea of the perfect walking wallet...sorry, "hobbyist", with total and utter disregard for people who're not neurotypical(or even just folk who're a bit shy).
Why not put in that minimal extra effort and sell your game to more people?
buddha wrote: This isn't a game without points, formations, or some way to level opponents. That's like saying you can play monopoly but you can just take as many properties as you want. Also money. And pieces. So buy multiple monopoly boxes. o.0
A much better comparison is Chainmail by Garry Gygax, the predecessor to D&D, which used(and had rules for) miniatures.
The campaign nature of sigmar means GW wants its players to follow a story and pay for that content, OR to build their own stories to play.
As somebody who payed both Chainmail and its successor, Swords and Spells (a D&D suppliment) I can tell you have no clue what you are talking about. Chainmail included a very complex points based system and was incredibly balanced.
To compare AoS to Chainmail is to mock a highly advanced and well developed war game system. Chainmail would run circles around AoS. I'm disgusted that the two would be uttered in the same breath.
Nah man, you don't get it. Back then, man, like, we were telling stories!
Yeah, when we combined the chainmail fantasy rules for large battles in the world where we ran our D&D campaigns (until Swords and Spells came along and we upgraded to a better rules set).
Man, these kids today don't have a clue what has gone before. I dug out a copy of 2E Batlesystem today because somebody mentioned it here and gleefully swooned at the elegance of those rules. There's a lot of old stuff that can work well for a thing still. Battlesystem was designed to convert anything with a 2E statblock to a Battlesystem statblock with ease, and I can convert any monster or humanoid to 2E statblocks because I did it for more than a decade.
Edited to add, I need to make me some lawn terrain boards so I can tell these kids to get off it!
For those arguing about the fate weaver screaming bell combo. It doesn't work because fate weaver choose the dice roll result. Not the table result. So choose whatever dice roll result you want (options 1-12) the compare you results to the table.
Red Viper wrote: Anyone find chaos dwarfs? I thought they'd be in chaos warriors, but only saw the hellcannon.
Nope.
No pigmies, Dogs of War or Nippon either.
Lying bisterds.
I saw a reference to the halfling hot pot catapult but I didn't see anything for lumpin croop's band, regular halfling archers, or spearmen either. Did I miss those or are they gone as well?
Yodhrin wrote: Seriously, this game is written pretty transparently for GW staff to run on the Sunday kids-only game, where whichever team yells "WAAAGH!" the loudest gets first turn, and the rules/balance don't actually matter because they let kids put down whatever models they have and make up rules as they go along to try and make every single Little Timmy feel like a special snowflake.
Oh I see. So wounds are the new points. Hey johnny, let's play a 100 wound game. OK, I'll bring my bloodthirster worth 14 wounds, a chaos sorceror worth x, some marauders at one a piece, and some knights. Great and I will bring an orc warboss on a boar worth six, two goblin shaman worth 3 each, and 10 black orcs worth two each, and twenty orcs, and twenty goblins with arrows.
Now all we have to do is weed out the unbalanced units that inevitably make it into GW games and we can have some sembiance of balance.
This notion some people have (that something without point values can't be considered a game) is absurd. There are plenty of very good miniature games that don't have point values. If you think a game has to have points, you have a very limited view of what a miniature game is, probably from thinking that GW is the entire world of miniature gaming.
If you know the game rules, you should be able to tell pretty easily if two forces are balanced. If you know all the rules for the stuff in both armies, and you aren't sure which army is going to win the game, then they are balanced enough. Play the game.
It does make pickup games a little more difficult, and tournaments even more so. But for pickup games, you can always do what people do with other games that don't have points (or a likelyhood of finding a player for a pickup game). You bring two armies with you to the store, and ask if anyone wants to get a game in with one of those armies. Let them pick which one to use, then play. Problem solved.
This new statblock format, plus point values, plus movement/resolution/army comp rules like from warhammer fantasy editions past and I think this could have been a great 9th edition.
Skip sudden death. We measure from the base. Dont worry about the distance parts of the model moves if you are just rotating the model on it's center. Especially on round bases this makes sense.
This was much, much easier and better
So things got better if you actively and intentionally ignored the rules.
Yeah. Sounds like a winner there!
SJM wrote: So obviously it is better to be mounted on a War boar, but as I understand it, there are no points.... so if your warboss is on a war boar he is better but is the same value as the Warboss on foot?
Yup.
Balance is for losers. Just play for fun!!!
This message brought to you by the Dakka Casual Gaming Mafia - 'Age of Sigmar is proof that we were right all along!'
Albino Squirrel wrote: This notion some people have (that something without point values can't be considered a game) is absurd. There are plenty of very good miniature games that don't have point values. If you thing a game has to have points, you have a very limited view of what a miniature game is, probably from thinking that GW is the entire world of miniature gaming.
If you know the game rules, you should be able to tell pretty easily if two forces are balanced. If you know all the rules for the stuff in both armies, and you aren't sure which army is going to win the game, then they are balance enough. Play the game.
It does make pickup games difficult, and tournaments even more so. But you can always do what people do with other games that don't have points (or a likelyhood of finding a player for a pickup game). You bring two armies with you to the store, and ask anyone if they want to get a game in with one of those armies. Let them pick which one to use, then play. Problem solved.
A game where every model is different stat wise, ruleswise and model count wise needs points. This game has shallow history behind it so using scenarios is impossible.
History games and more realistic games can indeed be without points because variations among troops is usually minimal.
In fantasy it is kind of important to know how many goblins a stegadon is roughly worth. Because without detailed back story information or rules telling us we have no real idea. The only way you can get a balanced game is by playing games to find out how units compare and then getting an idea this way. But have fun doing that with hundreds if unit types.
Name a wargame that has more than 50 unit types with drastically different rules and does not have a balancing system? You will not find one easily that is for sure and there is a reason for that.
GW was just being lazy and thought they would make anybody willing to play this play test it themselves.
Albino Squirrel wrote: This notion some people have (that something without point values can't be considered a game) is absurd. There are plenty of very good miniature games that don't have point values. If you thing a game has to have points, you have a very limited view of what a miniature game is, probably from thinking that GW is the entire world of miniature gaming.
If you know the game rules, you should be able to tell pretty easily if two forces are balanced. If you know all the rules for the stuff in both armies, and you aren't sure which army is going to win the game, then they are balance enough. Play the game.
It does make pickup games difficult, and tournaments even more so. But you can always do what people do with other games that don't have points (or a likelyhood of finding a player for a pickup game). You bring two armies with you to the store, and ask anyone if they want to get a game in with one of those armies. Let them pick which one to use, then play. Problem solved.
A game where every model is different stat wise, ruleswise and model count wise needs points. This game has shallow history behind it so using scenarios is impossible.
History games and more realistic games can indeed be without points because variations among troops is usually minimal.
In fantasy it is kind of important to know how many goblins a stegadon is roughly worth. Because without detailed back story information or rules telling us we have no real idea. The only way you can get a balanced game is by playing games to find out how units compare and then getting an idea this way. But have fun doing that with hundreds if unit types.
Name a wargame that has more than 50 unit types with drastically different rules and does not have a balancing system? You will not find one easily that is for sure and there is a reason for that.
GW was just being lazy and thought they would make anybody willing to play this play test it themselves.
Yea, I'm curious as to what "plenty of very good miniature games that don't have point values" are.
I have more miniatures and games than most hobby stores and I'm drawing a blank.
Albino Squirrel wrote: This notion some people have (that something without point values can't be considered a game) is absurd. There are plenty of very good miniature games that don't have point values. If you think a game has to have points, you have a very limited view of what a miniature game is, probably from thinking that GW is the entire world of miniature gaming.
Could you recommend a few? I've played regularly more than just GW games over the years (spear and shield, star trek combat sim, heavy gear, shockforce, b5 fleet action, vor the maelstrom, D&D minis, Star Wars minis, and x-wing to name a few non-GW ones) and I can't think of any. Are you confusing miniatures games with board or card games that happen to use minis like descent?
Games Workshop reminds you that Konrad von Carstein will never threaten to stab you and, in fact, cannot speak. In the event that Konrad von Carstein does speak, Games Workshop urges you to disregard his advice.
Coyote81 wrote: For those arguing about the fate weaver screaming bell combo. It doesn't work because fate weaver choose the dice roll result. Not the table result. So choose whatever dice roll result you want (options 1-12) the compare you results to the table.
I don't understand the people who argue for the combo, it makes no sense to work that way. If the combo works then you can just set d3 mortal wounds to a infinite number too. I think it's pretty easy to see that you only choose from dice result.
Funny that people are even discussing the fateweaver/skaven combo allready. Unfortunately, if you try to roll 2d6, you can't get a 13. Changing the result of one of the dice won't do it either.
Doesn't matter. The dice are immaterial. He can change the result of a roll to the result of his choice. "I rolled a 7, but the table has a 13. I choose that result instead. I win. GG"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote: What I don't is how nowhere in the rules does it give any kind of limitations on heroes. I can legally field an army of 15 Grimgors . How on earth did GW overlook this? Like, not including points was bad enough, but simply stating that you can't have more than one named hero in an army surely isn't that hard?!
_Tim?
The mistake here is thinking GW cared, at all, about the rules. They didn't.
Rofl, whatever. But if you can change the result of a dice to a 7, why not change it to "You owe me Pizza!" or "all your models are mine now!"? Either is as valid as "7" since none of the 3 are a result you can actually get on a D6. Are we really to the point that people are serious about arguing "RAW" about a joke about skaven trying to get a 13 on 2d6? Naw, don't answer, of course there are people who would do that
TalonZahn wrote: Yea, I'm curious as to what "plenty of very good miniature games that don't have point values" are.
I have more miniatures and games than most hobby stores and I'm drawing a blank.
They exist...
But they tend to be historicals. Force on Force, for instance, doesn't use points. Warlord Games was originally angling toward that with their games until player outcry convinced them to switch (note the difference between Black Powder and Bolt Action). The people who play such games tend to encourage players to come up with interesting scenarios.
That works great in some instances. And you can have great games when doing so if a given scenario isn't poorly-designed. But pick-up games don't work so well.
mikhaila wrote: Rofl, whatever. But if you can change the result of a dice to a 7, why not change it to "You owe me Pizza!" or "all your models are mine now!"? Either is as valid as "7" since none of the 3 are a result you can actually get on a D6. Are we really to the point that people are serious about arguing "RAW" about a joke about skaven trying to get a 13 on 2d6? Naw, don't answer, of course there are people who would do that
He has to scream "YOU OWE ME A PIZZA" first though, before you owe him a pizza. Says so right in the rules.
TalonZahn wrote: Yea, I'm curious as to what "plenty of very good miniature games that don't have point values" are.
I have more miniatures and games than most hobby stores and I'm drawing a blank.
They exist...
But they tend to be historicals. Force on Force, for instance, doesn't use points. Warlord Games was originally angling toward that with their games until player outcry convinced them to switch (note the difference between Black Powder and Bolt Action). The people who play such games tend to encourage players to come up with interesting scenarios.
That works great in some instances. And you can have great games when doing so if a given scenario isn't poorly-designed. But pick-up games don't work so well.
Fubar as well.
But yes historical games aren't all mean;t to be a fight to the death win like gamey games. You fight to the scenario usually or for a particular mission in an uneven environment. In AoS you simply plonk your crap in front of theirs and kill. In a brawl you NEED points.
Historical and games modeled after historical are the games that do well without points.
warboss wrote: Could you recommend a few? I've played regularly more than just GW games over the years (spear and shield, star trek combat sim, heavy gear, shockforce, b5 fleet action, vor the maelstrom, D&D minis, Star Wars minis, and x-wing to name a few non-GW ones) and I can't think of any. Are you confusing miniatures games with board or card games that happen to use minis like descent?
Historical games don't need to have points, as long as the unit rules accurately reflect their real effectiveness and you only play historical scenarios. If you know what forces fought in a real battle you don't need point costs, you just put those units on the table and see if you can do better than the real outcome of that battle. And even if you're making your own scenarios you still have real-world army composition as a guide to what forces are appropriate and many units are roughly equivalent across various armies so you can just say "everyone gets X of this, Y of that, etc".
Of course in a scifi or fantasy game, where you don't have real history as a guide, not including points is just hilarious incompetence.
Yodhrin wrote: Wow. I'm actually a bit surprised so many people find the idea of a game system that requires you to behave like a five year old appealing.
Yeah... makes me wonder what their actual target demographic is. At 14, i would have hated this stuff even more than i do now, simply because of being more concerned with not being embarrassingly immature etc.
Depends on the players. We had 6 people laughing about all the silly rules and signing up for our first tournament tonite. The stuff was funny to us because we've played so long and know the fluff behind a lot of it. We aren't taking the game serious, so its funny. But we'll still pull out armies and play. Ages ranged 20 to 54 in the group, 3 of them have played in multiple GT's every year for a decade.
At the same time, we discussed how to do a points system for AoS, and are planning to run tournaments for KOW2. So I think it's more of a mindset, or history with the game, than an age for who will enjoy it.
Now as to who GW is aiming this at? No Fething clue. That would mean figuring out how they think. I'd have to guess 10 to 16 range to attract new players, but it's only a guess. Even 10 year olds like a fair game.
TalonZahn wrote: Yea, I'm curious as to what "plenty of very good miniature games that don't have point values" are.
I have more miniatures and games than most hobby stores and I'm drawing a blank.
They exist...
But they tend to be historicals. Force on Force, for instance, doesn't use points. Warlord Games was originally angling toward that with their games until player outcry convinced them to switch (note the difference between Black Powder and Bolt Action). The people who play such games tend to encourage players to come up with interesting scenarios.
That works great in some instances. And you can have great games when doing so if a given scenario isn't poorly-designed. But pick-up games don't work so well.
Like others said, before and after me though, historicals aren't a good comparison. They are mostly built around set forces of a battle or time period. So I will agree there.
WHFB, is not historical. The AoS box, and any other starter from GW, might work with scenarios out of the box. From there on, it just falls apart all over the place.
Couple that with his suggestion that players should know what every army has, uses, or is capable of is asinine at best. I have a wall of books for dozens of systems containing hundreds, to thousands, of units/models/etc. and I'm still amazed at some of the crap people come up with in games.
Red Viper wrote: Anyone find chaos dwarfs? I thought they'd be in chaos warriors, but only saw the hellcannon.
Nope.
No pigmies, Dogs of War or Nippon either.
Lying bisterds.
I saw a reference to the halfling hot pot catapult but I didn't see anything for lumpin croop's band, regular halfling archers, or spearmen either. Did I miss those or are they gone as well?
Listening very carefully, i noticed that the words "current" and "sold by the website" were used quite a bit. Even then, this was a pretty big project. I've got all 439 pages printed out at the shop.
Maybe we can petition for a 10th realm where all the models with no rules live now?Unobtania?
Oh, wait, i used too many real vowels.......Unybtynya.....
wana10 wrote: Between the grail vow and greasus and probably more to come i'm liking some of what i'm seeing in a "that's ridiculous i love it' kind of way.
Not in a game sort of way but it does make for good comedy.
edit* Arrowstorm! once per game peasant bowman can quadruple their shots if they number more than 20!
Seriously, this game is written pretty transparently for GW staff to run on the Sunday kids-only game, where whichever team yells "WAAAGH!" the loudest gets first turn, and the rules/balance don't actually matter because they let kids put down whatever models they have and make up rules as they go along to try and make every single Little Timmy feel like a special snowflake.
The problem is that "style" of game is only appealing to children, or bored adults looking to have a bit of a laugh very occasionally. You can't build an actual sodding game system around it; you're supposed to dumb-down the actual game system for those kinds of events, to give kids a chance to pick up the rules at their own pace and enjoy themselves while they build up a proper army over time. Without that trajectory, that sense that you're actually doing something with your hobby time rather than just playing a slightly more formal version of you and your mates running about the wooded part of the school playground yelling "pchew, pchew" and pretending to be Aliens vs Predator, on what basis do they expect people to keep buying after the first couple of weeks? They cannot seriously believe this crap is going to net them a big enough increase in volume to make up for the fact that lots of folk who would previously have bought a couple of hundred models will now be getting bored & walking away after only buying a couple of boxes, can they?
Also: dear sweet merciful Christ the fluff, the terrible, terrible fluff
I opened the first PDF for the first faction I'm a fan of in the Old World, the Empire, and I'm greeted by; "In fair Sigmaron the free people of humanity gather, preserving heraldry and cultural traditions from civilisations ground beneath the weight of unceasing strife." ...
Going by the comments; are there really that many people who enjoy making a tit out of themselves in public? Because that's what is happening when one grown-a** man reaches menacingly across a game table and exclaims "WAAAAAARRR!" in a silly voice. That kind of thing might be funny when it's a guy you know doing it spontaneously for a bit of a laugh, but the idea of doing that kind of thing in every game I play against any random person at a local club actually sounds like a profoundly socially uncomfortable experience to me.
Since you got a bit of flack for this and some other comments I just felt inclined to chime in and say I agree very much with your points in this post.
The fluff is just, yeah, I can't even start to read it. I have a fairly high tolerance for cheesy sci-fi, fantasy or horror tropes, but some of the "Sigmarines of Sigmar clad in Sigmarite from Mt.Sigmarion" gak just makes even the most uncomfortable Primarch-adulation passages in HH books seem mild.
I think the worst part of all this is that even though they've been clear with "This is not 9th edition, this is an entirely new game", it's IMPOSSIBLE to feel that way with how things went. Silly games with silly rules can be fun, it's just that it feels like they took WHFB and just dropped all this gak into it, rather than manage a clear disconnect between the two games. I'm not sure how they could have done that, but maybe, just maybe, a bit of open-ness about what was going to happen would have prepared everyone for what was coming and let us judge it on its own merits.
Anyway, this is all irrelevant to me since I don't play WHFB. It just makes me a bit sad for some reason, not sure why.
GW has shot themselves in the foot on this one. They are toast.
You sure? It is $250 here in NZ... if it is also 250 USD then I will be happy, because for the first time we will not be getting more ripped off than anyone else haha.
Like others said, before and after me though, historicals aren't a good comparison. They are mostly built around set forces of a battle or time period. So I will agree there.
You asked for miniatures games that didn't use points. I provided an example and a half. You didn't indicate interest in anything beyond a lack of points.
*shrug*
On another note, others have asked about the target demographic. At least one of them is fairly easy. You can't really play WFB 8th without investing ridiculous amounts of money. For instance, building a completely inadequate Dark Elf army consisting of sixty fully-dressed core troops, a melee character, and a sorceress character, will set you back roughly $240. That's in addition to the rules and army book. With AoS, that entry-cost issue is completely upended. One character model, one box of spears, and one box of crossbows, is a playable army for roughly $85. And the rules are free. That's a *much* lower bar to entry for the new player. And if the player decides that she's interested in dwarves, then instead of buying a brand new dwarf army, he can buy a single box of dwarves to add to her Dark Aelf army instead of buying an entire new army.
That right there is one of the target demographics.
mikhaila wrote: A...
How to balance armies? Well, I have no Fething Clue yet. But i'm getting to work on it and the first tournament at my shop is next Sunday.
Did you play a(n) official scenario with suggested number and type of models/side in addition to terrain layout?
Sorry If I missed your commenting if you noted that.
$250 bucks....Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand thank GW for COMPLETELY pricing me out of your new game.
There has been lots of talk on this thread about jumping the shark...GW has jumped, flambé and eaten the shark. Then regurgitate thus said shark and ate it again.
mikhaila wrote: A...
How to balance armies? Well, I have no Fething Clue yet. But i'm getting to work on it and the first tournament at my shop is next Sunday.
Did you play a(n) official scenario with suggested number and type of models/side in addition to terrain layout?
Sorry If I missed your commenting if you noted that.
Yep, we've played some of the scenarios, and two of the guys had fun with a small Lizardmen vs Skaven game. Loved seeing the doomwheel run over a weapon team on its way towards the enemy
Third_Age_of_Baggz wrote: $250 bucks....Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand thank GW for COMPLETELY pricing me out of your new game.
There has been lots of talk on this thread about jumping the shark...GW has jumped, flambé and eaten the shark. Then regurgitate thus said shark and ate it again.
GW
Half that (and take 20% or more off if you use a discounter) and you're closer.
Scheduled a tournament for next weekend...working on format.
First Rule: No summoning Dear lord, you can summon so much stuff so easily in some armies. Makes sense in some ways. If you have the models you could have just set them on the board, so this is just like reserves.
But in any scenario where you try for balance, bringing in some extra bloodletters and greater demons is a tad over the top
Guys....im sad. I feel sorry for WHFB players.
You bros have my sympathy. I mean really. Pts would have been great and could have made this a great GREAT game.
But now......it just cant be really. The rules are not that bad, it encourages building your own army. and an army of heroes could have been cool.
But NOPE.
Nope.................
Maybe I should buy a carnosaur before it disappears, I always liked that model
Yodhrin wrote: Wow. I'm actually a bit surprised so many people find the idea of a game system that requires you to behave like a five year old appealing.
Yeah... makes me wonder what their actual target demographic is. At 14, i would have hated this stuff even more than i do now, simply because of being more concerned with not being embarrassingly immature etc.
Depends on the players. We had 6 people laughing about all the silly rules and signing up for our first tournament tonite. The stuff was funny to us because we've played so long and know the fluff behind a lot of it. We aren't taking the game serious, so its funny. But we'll still pull out armies and play. Ages ranged 20 to 54 in the group, 3 of them have played in multiple GT's every year for a decade.
At the same time, we discussed how to do a points system for AoS, and are planning to run tournaments for KOW2. So I think it's more of a mindset, or history with the game, than an age for who will enjoy it.
Now as to who GW is aiming this at? No Fething clue. That would mean figuring out how they think. I'd have to guess 10 to 16 range to attract new players, but it's only a guess. Even 10 year olds like a fair game.
In that setting it does sound like it could be kind of fun. I think part of the negativity I feel is caused by how I expected a re-booted warhammer instead of a party game o_O Then again it is possible for a party game to be competitive too, so I guess I shouldn't dismiss it just on that alone (plus a game doesn't have to be competitive to have value, obviously!!).
The Sigmarite "Chapters" managed to simultaneously jump the shark and take the biscuit.
From Page 181.
I find the "silly" rules not much of an issue. They are limited to a few warscrolls in each faction, with most aligned to special characters you barely see. It is also clear to see that they are very tongue in cheek, the idea of rules lawyers dancing to gain an advantage is fun in itself.
I get that, it just doesn't make any sense to me. They can do the whole "unbound erry day", "enthusiasm" kick in their stores with games that have points and rules that don't make groups of people uncomfortable, I know that for a fact because I used to attend exactly those kinds of events when I was a wee kid. They could have included points, or even just some basic balancing mechanism like having a Warscroll specify the size of the unit, and they could push all the shouty-shouty nonsense as suggested ways to play in their usual gushing WD editorials or the 96-page fluff & extras booklet.
It's hard not to take it personally when it very much appears that their intent was to write the rules in such a way as to say "you're not welcome here" to anyone who doesn't fit their idea of the perfect walking wallet...sorry, "hobbyist", with total and utter disregard for people who're not neurotypical(or even just folk who're a bit shy).
Why not put in that minimal extra effort and sell your game to more people?
Ok, I deal with those who have ASD professionally every day. I'll tell you this with a straight face. Do not take it personally. I understand the self-focused nature of ASD (and the internet), and I can also recognise that you seem to be intellectually able to understand things that you may not be able to on an emotional level. They simply do not care. That's not a personal attack towards you on their part. It's indifference and it's a very different thing. I do not have ASD, but I do have an aversion to acting like a fethwit in public. They also don't care about me. But I understand that it's not personal. GW corporate essentially have no idea that you nor I even exist and would neither blink, celebrate or weep if you or I died tomorrow - it's pretty much a definition of impersonal. As individuals, we're not important. Neither you nor I will play the new game in a store. Assuming that you have friends who you're able to game with, then you're welcome to either act like a fethwit in private, or skip that aspect of the new rules entirely. Alone with the other obvious options of just playing something else. Not every game has to be for all of us, of course - and this is no exception.
Don't hold your ASD as making you anything more or less special here than someone who is left-handed or sight impaired. They don't care and won't make allowances for it. Much like the world at large does not care and will generally make only token allowances for it outside of specialist venues and organisations. That's far from the worst of their indifference of course - When was the last time you saw an official GW paintjob painted as a non-caucasian? How many women and non-whites are there in human armies (IG/AM) of the 40th millennium compared to, say the British Army, US Armed forces or the IDF?
Getting back to AoS, I'd suggest that Tournament and competitive players are a comparatively bigger slice of the money pie, and they're pretty blatantly showing that they don't care about them, either. "Tournament Gamers" are not important enough in the context of their comparatively low-selling fantasy genre for them to care about. "ASD Gamers" are are not important enough in the context of their comparatively low-selling fantasy genre for them to care about. This game is aimed at the walk-ins and the new players, and adheres very strongly to the "churn through young teenagers" demographic that has been their target for nigh on 20 years now - as well as "figure collectors" who don't care about the actual games.
Don't get me wrong. I wish they'd included points as well, and the lack of same means I'll be playing far less than I would otherwise (I'll probably have a go with it since the rules are free - which is very telling in and of itself!). I think it's stupid that they did not include points, but I recognise that they (think) they know their market, and are aiming their game very hard at that market.
I looked all over and i can't figure out how the armies are setup balance wise. My best guess so far would be: I take 6 units, you take 6 units, of anything. ???
buddha wrote: This isn't a game without points, formations, or some way to level opponents. That's like saying you can play monopoly but you can just take as many properties as you want. Also money. And pieces. So buy multiple monopoly boxes. o.0
A much better comparison is Chainmail by Garry Gygax, the predecessor to D&D, which used(and had rules for) miniatures.
The campaign nature of sigmar means GW wants its players to follow a story and pay for that content, OR to build their own stories to play.
As somebody who payed both Chainmail and its successor, Swords and Spells (a D&D supplement) I can tell you have no clue what you are talking about. Chainmail included a very complex points based system and was incredibly balanced.
To compare AoS to Chainmail is to mock a highly advanced and well developed war game system. Chainmail would run circles around AoS. I'm disgusted that the two would be uttered in the same breath.
Sure Chainmail had a rudimentary point system, upon which many future point systems were based. I have no idea how you can consider its points system complex. It was very reasonable and straight forward, to reflect medieval armies that were very straightforward.
My point wasn't that Chainmail didn't have points, it was that you created scenario-based play (or at least, we did), a miniature based game that eventually led to campaign-based RPGs.
I think of of AoS as a campaign based, story driven miniature game, revolving around key skirmishes between heroes, rather than a miniature war game. And before you jump all over me, I don't even like this kind of thing, certainly not enough to make it my main fame or to play through a campaign. If GW makes boxes with good value in models, and they're great models, I'll buy them for that, and *occasionally* play AoS, but I'll never make it through a campaign or buy a campaign set that has no models.
What I want is a large scale, high model count scifi war game, though scenarios (not campaigns) in that setting are interesting to me. I don't want fantasy or historical, so it would be impossible, no matter how great the game, for AoS to grab me.
I saw a reference to the halfling hot pot catapult but I didn't see anything for lumpin croop's band, regular halfling archers, or spearmen either. Did I miss those or are they gone as well?
Listening very carefully, i noticed that the words "current" and "sold by the website" were used quite a bit. Even then, this was a pretty big project. I've got all 439 pages printed out at the shop.
Maybe we can petition for a 10th realm where all the models with no rules live now?Unobtania?
Oh, wait, i used too many real vowels.......Unybtynya.....
Is the hot pot catapult still available for sale then up until yesterday? It's listed in the empire list (admittedly in the counts as appendix) but the rest of the halflings that I thought went away at the same time weren't. It just seems odd that they'd mention one and not the other since both were OOP to my knowledge.
If you were determined to make it work, you'd need to make force orgs a thing and no special characters.
Then you'd need to take the really big game changers, things like Bloodthirsters, Tomb Kings on Necrosphinx, and probably anything with 12 wounds or more and put them in a Lords of War type category.
(Seriously, Royal Warsphinx are great. 12+ wounds and take half damage? All for the same "points cost" as a regular tomb prince on foot!)
Then you would need to take anything that hits and wounds on 4's or better and move them into an elite category.
Everything else is probably just fine as core troops tend to balance out.
So like, you might have a format of say..
2/50/25/1
2 Characters, 50 general wounds, 25 elite wounds, and 1 lord of war which can be added to any category.
At first I was afraid, I was petrified... Thinking however could I play without points on my side... I spent oh so many nights thinking how could they go so wrong, I grew strong, realized points doesn't mean anything at all!
And now Sigmars back, from outer space, I find him here smashing orks upin their face. I would have changed my stupid list, I would have made you rebalance yours if I had known for just one second you'd play 100 monstrous creatures or more!
First impression is that this game sucks, no balance what so ever and with stupid rules that either shouldn't be there at all or make no sense.... So if I talk to Konrad I get to re-roll 1s to hit, if he talks back I get to re-roll all to hit? So... people with paranoid schizophrenia have an advantage over people who don't?
This is a kids game, not to be taken serious at all and not to be played by anyone above the age of 12 as they should be smart enough to graduate to a more complicated product like 40K.
I can just take 30 large monsters, if you have 90 models or more I can set the Sudden Death to kill your weakest unit, run every model I have into that unit and win through sudden death. I might have 180+ wounds vs your 100+ or you could have 600+ wounds if you brought 100 MCs.
I guess it's too early to tell how this will play out but I think the game is pretty much dead from a competitive side of view as it is right now. If we want any semblance of balance we are going to have to create our own ruleset. Since Fantasy is pretty much dead already I don't think anyone will bother past the first year.
I honestly believe GW just killed off the entire Fantasy franchise with this move. It's a kids game to allow kids to play with whatever they own and nothing more as of yet.
I think of of AoS as a campaign based, story driven miniature game, revolving around key skirmishes between heroes, rather than a miniature war game.
Mordheim and Necromunda did this. Empire of the Dead and Deadzone do this. Frostgrave and Open Combat will do this.
Unless I missed something in the rules about campaigns and evolving units/characters, this is just something you're making up and throwing up as a defense for a poorly thought out, bare-bones ruleset. There is nothing in AoS that makes it any more 'campaign based' or 'story driven' than any other game on the market, apart from the fact that GW didn't bother to put points in the game, so now players have to spend time before a game hashing out what each player can bring that won't make the game unfair/not fun.
This release has stopped me from buying anything from GW (and I have a completely massive collection). It shows me they have no judgment left and Im not risking buying more products.
I think of of AoS as a campaign based, story driven miniature game, revolving around key skirmishes between heroes, rather than a miniature war game.
Mordheim and Necromunda did this. Empire of the Dead and Deadzone do this. Frostgrave and Open Combat will do this.
Unless I missed something in the rules about campaigns and evolving units/characters, this is just something you're making up and throwing up as a defense for a poorly thought out, bare-bones ruleset.
I'm describing AoS, not defending it. I don't think it's inaccurate. Did you miss the part where I said that this isn't my kind of game?
MadCowCrazy wrote: At first I was afraid, I was petrified...
Thinking however could I play without points on my side...
I spent oh so many nights thinking how could they go so wrong, I grew strong, realized points doesn't mean anything at all!
And now Sigmars back, from outer space, I find him here smashing orks upin their face. I would have changed my stupid list, I would have made you rebalance yours if I had known for just one second you'd play 100 monstrous creatures or more!
First impression is that this game sucks, no balance what so ever and with stupid rules that either shouldn't be there at all or make no sense.... So if I talk to Konrad I get to re-roll 1s to hit, if he talks back I get to re-roll all to hit? So... people with paranoid schizophrenia have an advantage over people who don't?
This is a kids game, not to be taken serious at all and not to be played by anyone above the age of 12 as they should be smart enough to graduate to a more complicated product like 40K.
I can just take 30 large monsters, if you have 90 models or more I can set the Sudden Death to kill your weakest unit, run every model I have into that unit and win through sudden death. I might have 180+ wounds vs your 100+ or you could have 600+ wounds if you brought 100 MCs.
I guess it's too early to tell how this will play out but I think the game is pretty much dead from a competitive side of view as it is right now. If we want any semblance of balance we are going to have to create our own ruleset. Since Fantasy is pretty much dead already I don't think anyone will bother past the first year.
I honestly believe GW just killed off the entire Fantasy franchise with this move. It's a kids game to allow kids to play with whatever they own and nothing more as of yet.
I totally agree about the "kids" comments. Crazy that GW would limit their target audience this way!
I just preordered the Kings of War 2.0 rulebook. Looks like it will be given in pdf form the day before this releases, and they'll be adding in armies for all fantasy factions. I'll be switching over with my chaos dwarfs! Was already using the Mantic models for my K'daai anyway
Kirasu wrote: This release has stopped me from buying anything from GW (and I have a completely massive collection). It shows me they have no judgment left and Im not risking buying more products.
Be fair though -- you've been pretty down on GW already, and it's not like you were happy with their releases, AoS or otherwise.
I think of of AoS as a campaign based, story driven miniature game, revolving around key skirmishes between heroes, rather than a miniature war game.
Mordheim and Necromunda did this. Empire of the Dead and Deadzone do this. Frostgrave and Open Combat will do this.
Unless I missed something in the rules about campaigns and evolving units/characters, this is just something you're making up and throwing up as a defense for a poorly thought out, bare-bones ruleset.
I'm describing AoS, not defending it. I don't think it's inaccurate. Did you miss the part where I said that this isn't my kind of game?
I did. I suppose I'm wrong in saying that you're defending the game, but then I guess I'm saying you're description is actually inaccurate. There's nothing here apart from the starter scenarios that indicate the game has any story driven components than what players make themselves, but I can do that for any games I play already - heck, I do that regularly on my blog! See the intro story to the All Quiet AAR. And a 'campaign based, story driven miniature game' sounds more akin to PP's RPG, or DnD 4th edition, both of which have more than four pages of rules and allows players to actually create an ongoing story with more detail.
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote: What I don't is how nowhere in the rules does it give any kind of limitations on heroes. I can legally field an army of 15 Grimgors . How on earth did GW overlook this? Like, not including points was bad enough, but simply stating that you can't have more than one named hero in an army surely isn't that hard?!
_Tim?
This is intended because some Datascrolls tell you to use previously legal models as Special Characters (example being a Master Necromancer on Abyssal Terror, the Vampire Counts scrolls tell you to use them as Arkhan the Black)
MadCowCrazy wrote: I guess it's too early to tell how this will play out but I think the game is pretty much dead from a competitive side of view as it is right now. If we want any semblance of balance we are going to have to create our own ruleset. Since Fantasy is pretty much dead already I don't think anyone will bother past the first year.
I am pretty sure that GW did not intend for AoS to be a competitive, list-building war game in any way.
Though I'm sure it will be adapted as such.
The real question is how many copies they sell at launch, how well expansions do, and how well it sells a few years from now.
Thunderfrog wrote: If you were determined to make it work, you'd need to make force orgs a thing and no special characters.
Then you'd need to take the really big game changers, things like Bloodthirsters, Tomb Kings on Necrosphinx, and probably anything with 12 wounds or more and put them in a Lords of War type category.
(Seriously, Royal Warsphinx are great. 12+ wounds and take half damage? All for the same "points cost" as a regular tomb prince on foot!)
Then you would need to take anything that hits and wounds on 4's or better and move them into an elite category.
Everything else is probably just fine as core troops tend to balance out.
So like, you might have a format of say..
2/50/25/1
2 Characters, 50 general wounds, 25 elite wounds, and 1 lord of war which can be added to any category.
I get that, it just doesn't make any sense to me. They can do the whole "unbound erry day", "enthusiasm" kick in their stores with games that have points and rules that don't make groups of people uncomfortable, I know that for a fact because I used to attend exactly those kinds of events when I was a wee kid. They could have included points, or even just some basic balancing mechanism like having a Warscroll specify the size of the unit, and they could push all the shouty-shouty nonsense as suggested ways to play in their usual gushing WD editorials or the 96-page fluff & extras booklet.
It's hard not to take it personally when it very much appears that their intent was to write the rules in such a way as to say "you're not welcome here" to anyone who doesn't fit their idea of the perfect walking wallet...sorry, "hobbyist", with total and utter disregard for people who're not neurotypical(or even just folk who're a bit shy).
Why not put in that minimal extra effort and sell your game to more people?
Ok, I deal with those who have ASD professionally every day. I'll tell you this with a straight face. Do not take it personally. I understand the self-focused nature of ASD (and the internet), and I can also recognise that you seem to be intellectually able to understand things that you may not be able to on an emotional level. They simply do not care. That's not a personal attack towards you on their part. It's indifference and it's a very different thing. I do not have ASD, but I do have an aversion to acting like a fethwit in public. They also don't care about me. But I understand that it's not personal. GW corporate essentially have no idea that you nor I even exist and would neither blink, celebrate or weep if you or I died tomorrow - it's pretty much a definition of impersonal. As individuals, we're not important. Neither you nor I will play the new game in a store. Assuming that you have friends who you're able to game with, then you're welcome to either act like a fethwit in private, or skip that aspect of the new rules entirely. Alone with the other obvious options of just playing something else. Not every game has to be for all of us, of course - and this is no exception.
Don't hold your ASD as making you anything more or less special here than someone who is left-handed or sight impaired. They don't care and won't make allowances for it. Much like the world at large does not care and will generally make only token allowances for it outside of specialist venues and organisations. That's far from the worst of their indifference of course - When was the last time you saw an official GW paintjob painted as a non-caucasian? How many women and non-whites are there in human armies (IG/AM) of the 40th millennium compared to, say the British Army, US Armed forces or the IDF?
Getting back to AoS, I'd suggest that Tournament and competitive players are a comparatively bigger slice of the money pie, and they're pretty blatantly showing that they don't care about them, either. "Tournament Gamers" are not important enough in the context of their comparatively low-selling fantasy genre for them to care about. "ASD Gamers" are are not important enough in the context of their comparatively low-selling fantasy genre for them to care about. This game is aimed at the walk-ins and the new players, and adheres very strongly to the "churn through young teenagers" demographic that has been their target for nigh on 20 years now - as well as "figure collectors" who don't care about the actual games.
Don't get me wrong. I wish they'd included points as well, and the lack of same means I'll be playing far less than I would otherwise (I'll probably have a go with it since the rules are free - which is very telling in and of itself!). I think it's stupid that they did not include points, but I recognise that they (think) they know their market, and are aiming their game very hard at that market.
Hmm, perhaps I should have gone for distinct sentences, but my intent was actually to distinguish between the "perfect walking wallet" bit(which was in reference to style of play etc) and the "disregard for the non-neurotypical" bit with the comma. I don't believe GW are intentionally attempting to exclude autistic people from their games, just that they're trying to format this game in such a way as to clearly convey their...perhaps disdain is too strong a word, but along those lines, for tournament/casual-competitive types, and in the process through their as you say total indifference have made things more difficult for people like myself or those with other social disorders.
I did. I suppose I'm wrong in saying that you're defending the game, but then I guess I'm saying you're description is actually inaccurate. There's nothing here apart from the starter scenarios that indicate the game has any story driven components than what players make themselves, but I can do that for any games I play already - heck, I do that regularly on my blog! See the intro story to the All Quiet AAR. And a 'campaign based, story driven miniature game' sounds more akin to PP's RPG, or DnD 4th edition, both of which have more than four pages of rules and allows players to actually create an ongoing story with more detail.
Hey, the mechanics are too simple for me, too, although I would argue that the rules actually include all the other stuff, like warscrolls, etc. By the same metric, people consider 40k codex releases as art o the rules.
I'm sure I read somewhere (perhaps it was only rumor?) that the ongoing revenue plan is to advance a story line (in the form of more scenarios/campaigns).
Incidentally, here is another revenue model theory -- to tap the 40k superfan, making and marketing models they'll buy in addition to their 40k stuff. Vertical markets, and all.
I feel like this has two ways of ending:
1) they realize that "they dun goof" and do what they did with 40k 6th and pump out a new version of 8th (8.5?) to make up for it
Hey, the mechanics are too simple for me, too, although I would argue that the rules actually include all the other stuff, like warscrolls, etc. By the same metric, people consider 40k codex releases as art o the rules.
I'm sure I read somewhere (perhaps it was only rumor?) that the ongoing revenue plan is to advance a story line (in the form of more scenarios/campaigns).
Incidentally, here is another revenue model theory -- to tap the 40k superfan, making and marketing models they'll buy in addition to their 40k stuff. Vertical markets, and all.
I've seen the rules on the warscrolls, and like I said earlier, they seem to be more akin to the activities that the children's librarian would run at the library I worked at - albeit with more facial hair and talking to your miniatures than may be socially comfortable, so who knows?
It was just a rumor about the ongoing storyline, likely fueled by the 'battleplans' included in the starter set. But aren't starter specifics scenarios sort of GW's method of getting people to play with the usually unbalanced included miniatures?
And the last theory makes sense - the new rules do bring down the necessary miniature count by a lot (well, depending on who you're playing) and now 40k players no longer have to look over to the table next to them in the GW store and feel fear and confusion at the sight of square bases. But at the same time, isn't it also likely that any 40k player could easily transition his 40k funds over to AoS purchases? And in that case, isn't GW hurting itself by a sort of auto-cannibalization?
wana10 wrote: What about using the old army comp with wounds instead of points?
however many wounds
up to 25% can be heroes/wizard
at least 25% must be core
up to 25% can be elite
up to 25% can be lord of war?
You still run into Chaos Warrior vs Goblin syndrome.
If I have to take 30 goblins, and your only tax is 30 chaos warriors, that really sucks for me.
It's why I think "Core" needs redifined as things that have base hit and wound stats of no better than 4's or maybe 5's, with maybe an exception for ogres.
Kirasu wrote: This release has stopped me from buying anything from GW (and I have a completely massive collection). It shows me they have no judgment left and Im not risking buying more products.
Be fair though -- you've been pretty down on GW already, and it's not like you were happy with their releases, AoS or otherwise.
Incorrect, ask Mikhaila. I put in a larger order beginning of the year despite not being happy with GW
It boggles my mind that people are still trying to figure out a way to adapt this into a tournament/pick-up tier game?
WHY? Why not just play 8th edition fantasy in tournaments and pick-ups? Like it makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever why anyone would bother going through the house-rule hell of trying to "balance" a game that is unequivocally built from the ground up to NOT be a serious tactical game. Age of Sigmar is literally in the same genre of games as Trouble, Mouse-Trap and Perfection.
PuddlePirate wrote: Can anyone tell me how cannons work now? I've looked all over to find out what that star thing is and simply can't find it.
the star means it a variable number and relates to the chart immediately below. in the case of cannons how effective they are is linked to how many crew remain alive and nearby.
Hmm, perhaps I should have gone for distinct sentences, but my intent was actually to distinguish between the "perfect walking wallet" bit(which was in reference to style of play etc) and the "disregard for the non-neurotypical" bit with the comma. I don't believe GW are intentionally attempting to exclude autistic people from their games, just that they're trying to format this game in such a way as to clearly convey their...perhaps disdain is too strong a word, but along those lines, for tournament/casual-competitive types, and in the process through their as you say total indifference have made things more difficult for people like myself or those with other social disorders.
I agree with you - they've been pretty explicit in recent years about their disdain for competitive gaming, and this really is an explicit "FU" to that aspect of the gaming scene. It's like the slow slide that Jervis has made over the last decade, writ so large now that it is the final paragraph of the 4-page rule booklet, written as The Most Important Rule - essentially being "roll a D6".
PuddlePirate wrote: Can anyone tell me how cannons work now? I've looked all over to find out what that star thing is and simply can't find it.
The star simply means that the damage from a cannon is based on the crew remaining.
MISSILE WEAPONS Range Attacks To Hit To Wound Rend Damage
Cannon Ball 40" ✹ 4+ 2+ -2 D6
Crew Table is right below.
So basically, a cannon with three crew makes 2 shots that hit on 4's, wound on 2's, reduces saves by -2, and does d6 wounds per cannonball.
Crew are also separate from the warmachine, which has 5 wounds. Each have their own stats, and the crew can abandon the cannon now and go do melee things if they want. Engineers let you reroll misses. Cannons still pretty stronk.
wana10 wrote: What about using the old army comp with wounds instead of points?
however many wounds
up to 25% can be heroes/wizard
at least 25% must be core
up to 25% can be elite
up to 25% can be lord of war?
You still run into Chaos Warrior vs Goblin syndrome.
If I have to take 30 goblins, and your only tax is 30 chaos warriors, that really sucks for me.
It's why I think "Core" needs redifined as things that have base hit and wound stats of no better than 4's or maybe 5's, with maybe an exception for ogres.
chaos warriors are 2 wounds though. so there would be half as many of them as single wound goblins.
still not perfect to be sure but a starting point at least.
this idea would also rely on a dropping of the sudden death rules. or perhaps switching them to be based on wound total instead of model total. so if you want to go for sudden death that's fine but all of a sudden you're taking a quarter less wounds which would then affect the ratio for everything else
It's not all bad though since my paranoid schizophrenia now help me win games! Yay!
Saw this over on 4Chan...
10. Nothing in the Scenery warscrolls compendium describes it in such a way that doesn't make it a legal army. A perfectly legal move would be to plop a warscroll-represented building down, claim the Endure Sudden Death condition, and win by default. If your opponent argues that your building ALONE is not a legal army, take a unit of Tomb Swarms to do the same. If your opponent nominates the Tomb Swarm for Endure, burrow them and never resurface. Guaranteed victory. Normally, this would result in a Major Victory if you have no models on the table, but since the building is explicitly your model, well...
11. By taking Fateweaver and a Screaming Bell, you can instantly win the game Turn 1. Just ring the bell, have Fateweaver set the roll to 13, instant win. There's not even any argument about it. It just happens.
What's reallly, really sad to me (other than blowing up the Old World, of course ) , is that Age of Sigmar has a lot of ideas which would have been really good in Warhammer Fantasy Battles:
Liberal use of multiple wounds to more units to represent durability.
Monsters with variable statblocks based on wound levels.
Command units with benefits that varied by army, or even by unit, rather than a single rule for all champions, musicians, and standardbearers.
Creative rules writing for war machines (I really like the Doom Diver redirection ability, and the 'You're next, tubby!' rule).
Relocating special rules to the models, rather than the 'Universal Special Rules', which allows the introduction of new rules for new units.
Rules for weapon reach, which give 'fighting in rank' like benefits, but also allow disordered troops with reach weapons (like, say, whips) to participate.
Free rules! Accepting the idea that you don't charge for information, but for production. If you want to buy the lovely, full-cover, bound rules, you can, but you can also download 'em at home!
Accepting the necessity of rebalancing an edition at one go. Not that this game is balanced, but all of the rules for all of the armies are out there right now.
So many of those things are either fresh ideas, or, at least, new to GW. They put in the work to make an entirely new edition and sat down and wrote all of it out for every army, then gave it to us for free!
And then, of course, gave us this. Where the humans that fled to Sigmar's refuge (which was never mentioned before) have lived there for thousands of years, but haven't changed their technology, or their fashions, and still are obsessed about their former world, but, y'now, not so obsessed that they wouldn't fight with orruks against skaven, even though they're still calling skaven skaven after thousands of years, but have changed the name for Orcs. Where there's no game distinction, whatsover, between placing down 3 ogres, or 30 ogres, or 3 Orruk Warbosses or 3 Bloodthirsters. Where you have to measure the tips of the weapons to fight, so the poor knight with his lance raised can't fight as well as the guy with it lowered. Where they want you to buy, assemble, and paint expensive models, then let someone wedge their models onto the base to get into 'fighting range'.
They were brave enough to rethink the whole game, and diligent enough to rewrite the whole thing, but dumb enough to put out this thing. What a colossal waste.
They came so close to making what actually looks like a quite fun if rather simplistic fantasy skirmish game but in typical GW fashion buggered it up.
Looking at some of the fundamentals of the game it actually has a lot of potential. The turn structure is interesting and should help prevent the old falling asleep whilst your opponent moves everything that used to plague some larger games (ever seen a MSU O&G or Skaven army?). Though I can't for the life of me work out the Battleshock system. Where is the bravery stat the rules mention? EDIT: Disregard this, my pdf reader was playing silly buggers.
The new stat line is in my opinion a wonderful thing. Though I should state that since I've read the KoW rules (1st ed still waiting for the 2nd ed kickstarter stuff obviously) and played quite a bit of Bolt Action I've become a big fan of simple stat lines.
But the lack of army balancing is worrying. Even for a game that is meant to be simply throwing some models on a table and rolling some dice balance of some description is needed. I guess GW are leaving this up to the players but that will just lead to WAAC types turning up with whatever the unit limit is of whatever the most overpowered unit in the game is. I don't care about having a points system but ensuring that armies aren't hideously unbalanced should be a massive part of the game. Even if it's just something like 0-1 support choice (cavalry, elite infantry, monsters, heroes etc) for every 2 core choices (basic infantry or in the case of brets KOTR) that would be better than nothing.
Then there's the sudden death rules. Stupid and pointless, I will be ignoring them. If they really want to keep it simple just set a turn limit and use a victory point system.
However in spite of my gripes about how the game ends and the complete lack of balance I will atleast give the new rules a go. There's enough potential that it's worth playing and seeing what works and what needs changing.
RoninXiC wrote: Wow.. I already said that I believe this to be the worst rules in the history of Tabletop.
And Im 100% certain that there will never be again a worse system... ever.
Still better than <The RPG That Shall Not Be Named>.
I think this looks like crap. There is some appeal there as something to be read - a parody of a tabletop game rulebook - but it strikes me less as a real game that real people would play than social media bait.
I like the rule that let's you make up your own special rules. Here's one I've invented.
When a human infantry unit has taken casualties, during the Battleshock phase, the owning player may shout in a panicky voice, "Run away! Run away!" and in a different panicky voice, "Other left! Other left!" when rolling for models lost to Battleshock. The lost models are then added back to the unit, as confused troops run towards the action instead of away from it.
While logic isn't a thing with gw, I'm failing to understand why they include update rules for special characters that shouldn't exist in any way considering the events that transpired before age of sigmar. This was their chance to wipe the slate clean of characters that don't have a plastic new model and come up with new ones. If forge the narrative is a thing for playing with rules you must act out or vocalize sounds, the. Forging the narrative of not playing with characters that are beyond the realm of the dead
MadCowCrazy wrote: It's not all bad though since my paranoid schizophrenia now help me win games! Yay!
Saw this over on 4Chan...
10. Nothing in the Scenery warscrolls compendium describes it in such a way that doesn't make it a legal army. A perfectly legal move would be to plop a warscroll-represented building down, claim the Endure Sudden Death condition, and win by default. If your opponent argues that your building ALONE is not a legal army, take a unit of Tomb Swarms to do the same. If your opponent nominates the Tomb Swarm for Endure, burrow them and never resurface. Guaranteed victory. Normally, this would result in a Major Victory if you have no models on the table, but since the building is explicitly your model, well...
11. By taking Fateweaver and a Screaming Bell, you can instantly win the game Turn 1. Just ring the bell, have Fateweaver set the roll to 13, instant win. There's not even any argument about it. It just happens.
Again, fateweaver combo is not possible, cause you choose a single dice roll , 13 is not possible with 2d6. It's saying I would choose 100 for my d3 mortal wound roll.
infinite_array wrote: And the last theory makes sense - the new rules do bring down the necessary miniature count by a lot (well, depending on who you're playing) and now 40k players no longer have to look over to the table next to them in the GW store and feel fear and confusion at the sight of square bases. But at the same time, isn't it also likely that any 40k player could easily transition his 40k funds over to AoS purchases? And in that case, isn't GW hurting itself by a sort of auto-cannibalization?
Speaking as a 40k superfan, who knows many like-minded 40k superfans -- that extra $125 is just going to be on top of a 40k spend, in the same way that buying WMH or Infinity models, or multiple boxes of Space Hulk had any impact on the core 40k models that I want to build armies with. The only way it would decrease the 40k spend is if it were actually a better game (a likelihood of zero, I think), or if you could use the models in 40k.
Essentially, I'm just buying it for the models because I think they're cool, and I might play a couple of games for laughs or, if the game is actually fun, because we finished 40k early or if two of us are both waiting for different gaming partners for the night to arrive.
Not very flattering for AoS or Fantasy, I'll be the first to admit, but it occurred to me that it's a great strategy for GW to get a few bucks out of me without much work. Of course, the Sigmarites having the Space Marine aesthetic (or at least the "heroic paladin aesthetic") helps that immensely.
The more I read through the more I love these statblocks. So long as they had points and some semblance of balance I'd love to see this style of unit entry make its way to 40k.
Pariah-Miniatures wrote: While logic isn't a thing with gw, I'm failing to understand why they include update rules for special characters that shouldn't exist in any way considering the events that transpired before age of sigmar. This was their chance to wipe the slate clean of characters that don't have a plastic new model and come up with new ones. If forge the narrative is a thing for playing with rules you must act out or vocalize sounds, the. Forging the narrative of not playing with characters that are beyond the realm of the dead
There must be loads of players who have metal or (God forbid) Finecast special character figures, who would not want to throw them away because not included in the new game.
I think it is a good move by GW to include these characters. They should be congratulated.
I don't like the shouting rules but that can always be ignored. It's good in a game for 10 year olds.
wana10 wrote: What about using the old army comp with wounds instead of points?
however many wounds
up to 25% can be heroes/wizard
at least 25% must be core
up to 25% can be elite
up to 25% can be lord of war?
You still run into Chaos Warrior vs Goblin syndrome.
If I have to take 30 goblins, and your only tax is 30 chaos warriors, that really sucks for me.
It's why I think "Core" needs redifined as things that have base hit and wound stats of no better than 4's or maybe 5's, with maybe an exception for ogres.
Chaos warriors have two wounds goblins have one so your 30 goblins is actually only 15 warriors of chaos.
Nagash, Hand of Dust ....you literally hide a dice in one of your hands and your opponent has to guess which one it is in...this is so dumb.....so dumb
Somewhere hidden in these scrolls is rock, paper, scissors....i bet it's there....
All Chaos Wizards know summon everything...and only need a 6 to summon 10 lesser demons!?! That's a below average roll for god sake....can you say blatant money grab. Oh yeah its a skirmish game..yeah right, its a pay to win game now.
Again, fateweaver combo is not possible, cause you choose a single dice roll , 13 is not possible with 2d6. It's saying I would choose 100 for my d3 mortal wound roll.
Even if we accept the premise that Fateweaver's ability only works on a single die out of the 2D6 (which is grammatically incorrect, "Dice" is plural, and Oracle of Eternity works on a single "dice" roll - singular roll of plural dice), the rule says you may choose the result, it does NOT say the result must be one legitimately obtainable normally through the use of six-sided dice
- roll 2D6, get a 1 and a 4, "choose the result" of the 1 to be a 9, total is 13, instant win. the nine is the "result of my choosing" as dictated by the rule
Again, fateweaver combo is not possible, cause you choose a single dice roll , 13 is not possible with 2d6. It's saying I would choose 100 for my d3 mortal wound roll.
Even if we accept the premise that Fateweaver's ability only works on a single die out of the 2D6 (which is grammatically incorrect, "Dice" is plural, and Oracle of Eternity works on a single "dice" roll - singular roll of plural dice), the rule says you may choose the result, it does NOT say the result must be one legitimately obtainable normally through the use of six-sided dice
- roll 2D6, get a 1 and a 4, "choose the result" of the 1 to be a 9, total is 13, instant win. the nine is the "result of my choosing" as dictated by the rule
If you don't choose from the possible results of the dice, then you might as well say your d3 mortal wound be 10000000000000000000000 wound and use 6 sided dice with value 100-600 because the rule only say you use a d6.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
wana10 wrote: The screaming bell disallows modifiers. How is the fateweaver changing the result not modifying the dice roll?
Because they would argue that you only set the roll to a number and not adding modifiers to it(+1/-1)
I had a rude realization: not even D&D forces you to "roleplay" things in real life. I feel that for someone who wants to play some serious, not-comical fantasy, it'll be like expecting to watch Jurassic Park but the T-rex is Barney the Dinosaur.
Really looking forward to trying this after mikhaila's very positive impressions. Will obviously ignore the stupid special rules for shouting or doing funny voices should it come up in a game.
To the people comparing this to children's games or very simple board games: really? I'm sure you realize that having a few silly rules (like the aforementioned yelling special rules) don't cancel out the complexity of the rest of the game, right? The core rules plus the Warscrolls look like they create a reasonably complex system, certainly far above any children's game I've played and on par with many other miniature games. it's way less complex than 8th obviously, but that doesn't mean much since those rules were some of the most complex out there.
So.. reading the Skaven Doombell.. it seems the only way to get thirteen would be to have doctored one of your dice to a seven.. thus the cheater line.
Xyxox wrote: Has anybody else noticed the the single largest and most visible wargames miniature company has just become the biggest laughingstock in the entire industry?
I think that might be a bit premature. If this thing sells like hotcakes - GW will be the ones laughing last, no matter what all us old grognards say.
Dakka really isn't representative of the GW playerbase as a whole. I know plenty of players who don't even know what Dakka -is-, nor do they bother with gaming forums or whatnot. It will be interesting to see after a couple months what the reaction is, how sales are, and how GW responds to those level of sales. If the game flops - we could see a stiff drop-off, and with changes this radical, I wouldn't be surprised if GW has 'back up plans' or a 'plan B' in-mind. Maybe they don't, I dunno. If the game takes off - will 40K get the same treatment with its 8th edition?
Other folks might be laughing now, but the -real- important laughs will be in a few months when we see the results of this release.
I feel very flat. That's the only way I can describe it I think. It's just weird. The ridiculous shouting rules have basically killed the last of my enthusiasm.
Nagash, Hand of Dust ....you literally hide a dice in one of your hands and your opponent has to guess which one it is in...this is so dumb.....so dumb
.
Sooooo....
Instead of having you roll a dice and telling you to roll a 4+ for a single special ability of a single special character.... they have you put a dice in a hand, and let your opponent pick.
50/50 either way.
Why are people so butt-hurt by things like this? If you don't like it - just roll a d6 and on a 4+ you succeed. It's not rocket-science.
Don't like the 'character' type abilities? Don't do them. Tell your opponent it's stupid. If your opponent is someone you know, chances are they will agree, or just not care. Then you move on with your game.
Some people are really trying too hard to be negative-nancies here.
Nagash, Hand of Dust ....you literally hide a dice in one of your hands and your opponent has to guess which one it is in...this is so dumb.....so dumb
.
Sooooo....
Instead of having you roll a dice and telling you to roll a 4+ for a single special ability of a single special character.... they have you put a dice in a hand, and let your opponent pick.
50/50 either way.
Why are people so butt-hurt by things like this? If you don't like it - just roll a d6 and on a 4+ you succeed. It's not rocket-science.
Don't like the 'character' type abilities? Don't do them. Tell your opponent it's stupid. If your opponent is someone you know, chances are they will agree, or just not care. Then you move on with your game.
Some people are really trying too hard to be negative-nancies here.
So you think having to spend two hours negotiating how and what is going to be in the game, house rules, clarifications and what is an even battle is the foundation For a good game? Okay gw fanboy ...keep white knighting and making excuses for reasons to let them off the hook. I'm a 25year veteran and I am finally walking away. I will use what minis I have as proxy in other game systems... that is what I dont unload. I have nearly $ 10k in minis and I will be spending not one more Cent on whfb
Does anyone know what it means in a warscroll when a unit has a * in place of a number for a stat? All of the bloodthirsters have a * for their movement profile...
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Does anyone know what it means in a warscroll when a unit has a * in place of a number for a stat? One of the bloodthirsters has a * for its movement profile...
I think it means it's variable and there's a chart showing how it changes when they take wounds.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Does anyone know what it means in a warscroll when a unit has a * in place of a number for a stat? One of the bloodthirsters has a * for its movement profile...
I think it means it's variable and there's a chart showing how it changes when they take wounds.
Damn, you're right.
Anyway, Don't know how feel yet. Looks VERY easy to play but ONLy with friends who aren't pricks. No points/way to organize and balance armies in anyway is just something I cannot comprehend.
WHFB drew me into the Warhammer universe around 25 years ago, back when WHFB was the main game and people had a few space marines on the side for small games of Rogue Trader/40k. The depth of history and wealth of background had me hooked. I've read large numbers of books set in the WHFB universe, classics such as the Konrad Saga and Beasts in Velvet, and once spent two hours poring over a map of The Empire, reading about the different provinces and wondering which I would like to paint my minis as. Throughout my life, picking up old White Dwarfs or re-reading worn and dog-eared books was like visiting an old friend.
I am going to employ Mokusatsu, 'to kill with silent contempt' for AoS, and move on.
quickfuze wrote: So you think having to spend two hours negotiating how and what is going to be in the game, house rules, clarifications and what is an even battle is the foundation For a good game?
What kind of friends do you have that it takes two hours to say "let's not use Special Characters, they are silly"?
So you think having to spend two hours negotiating how and what is going to be in the game, house rules, clarifications and what is an even battle is the foundation For a good game? Okay gw fanboy ...keep white knighting and making excuses for reasons to let them off the hook. I'm a 25year veteran and I am finally walking away. I will use what minis I have as proxy in other game systems... that is what I dont unload. I have nearly $ 10k in minis and I will be spending not one more Cent on whfb
If you don't like this new system... don't play it.
Simply continue to play WHFB 3-8 (whichever your group prefers), or KoW. Selling your models off seems a bit of a /ragequit reaction. Especially since we knew they were going to be changing the status quo in a radical way for some time. Cool off and come back to it in a week. (Not AoS - your model collection).
quickfuze wrote: So you think having to spend two hours negotiating how and what is going to be in the game, house rules, clarifications and what is an even battle is the foundation For a good game?
What kind of friends do you have that it takes two hours to say "let's not use Special Characters, they are silly"?
But you can't do that, some units got squatted, like Heralds on Steeds, some of them you *HAVE* to use a special character warscroll, for a Herald on Palanquin, you *HAVE* to use Epidemius.
Skulltaker on juggy and chariot is gone though.... So much gone...
You know, when you're the subject of a joke, even a spiteful, offensive joke, you always have two options: you can fly off the handle, rage and scream and generally add to the misery of yourself and everyone around you, or you can laugh and roll with it, because what's done is done and not giving a feth is the best way to disarm someone who's trying to rile you up.
A lot of people in this community are failing spectacularly to pick the correct option.
Not very flattering for AoS or Fantasy, I'll be the first to admit, but it occurred to me that it's a great strategy for GW to get a few bucks out of me without much work. Of course, the Sigmarites having the Space Marine aesthetic (or at least the "heroic paladin aesthetic") helps that immensely.
I don't mind the 'make it simple' approach - in fact I prefer my rules pretty simple - but somehow you'd still expect there's a game left to play. I'm looking at this and I see no reason to pick it up, except a few decent models. The rules are half of the box, IMO - why pick up a two-player game, if the "game" part consists of putting a few models on table, then doing a chicken dance around it?
However, I'm interested to see what happens if the AoS ever makes it to the 2nd edition - if they re-introduce some of the core mechanics, it might become a decent game.
It depends on whether it's fun or not. Mikhala seemed to think the game itself was fun and the flaws were more with the lack of balancing. If the game is fun, then it's fun, after all.
Instead of having you roll a dice and telling you to roll a 4+ for a single special ability of a single special character.... they have you put a dice in a hand, and let your opponent pick.
50/50 either way.
Why are people so butt-hurt by things like this? If you don't like it - just roll a d6 and on a 4+ you succeed. It's not rocket-science.
No, it's not. Which is why GW should have been capable of doing it themselves. You should never add a rule without knowing what that rule is meant to accomplish. Magic has used similar rules, but the rule done right makes it more than a different way of doing a coin flip - in the case of Master of Predicaments, the fact that picking an expensive card and your opponent guessing wrong gives you a bigger reward than picking a cheap card and your opponent guessing wrong encourages making an informed choice on both sides instead of the optimal play being pure randomness to avoid being predicted by your opponent.
I just can't believe the amount of stupid in the Daemons PDF *ALONE* Like, Skulltaker literally cannot die, he can keep rerolling failed saves... Gee, that's not broken at all? is it?
Generic Heralds with banners/steeds are gone. You can't use a herald of nurgle on palanquin, you have to use Epidemius.
Kairos can just change a result to anything you choose, Okay, my 36 attack die are all sixes. Skulltaker uses all 6's on his attack roll. He scores 3 mortal wounds per 6.
You have to dance to get the bonus for the Masque... You have to seduce a model... This is fething stupid...
EDIT: BTW, the guy who just used Minister of Predicaments from MTG as an example of regular design, that was a guest designed card specifically for M15, designed by David Sirlin, not by Wizards RnD. These new abilities are more closely compared to the MTG set Unhinged or Unglued... which aren't tournament legal BTW.
It would seem that GW have forgotten that many people still do play at LGS, and I doubt anyone is willing to look stupid just for a +1 bonus...
So you think having to spend two hours negotiating how and what is going to be in the game, house rules, clarifications and what is an even battle is the foundation For a good game? Okay gw fanboy ...keep white knighting and making excuses for reasons to let them off the hook. I'm a 25year veteran and I am finally walking away. I will use what minis I have as proxy in other game systems... that is what I dont unload. I have nearly $ 10k in minis and I will be spending not one more Cent on whfb
First off - you're making stuff up. Nowhere did I say anything about 'negotiating'. Even if I had, I doubt it would take 'two hours' to 'negotiate' anything. More like 10 minutes. When I play, I try to play with like-minded people. That being the case, 'negotiation' shouldn't take long. If I am 'negotiating' with someone after two hours, we certainly are not 'like-minded', and I would have moved on by then.
Secondly - nothing in my post was directed toward an 'even foundation' for the game. I just think there are bigger problems than 'fluff' requirements for a handful of special characters. Some of those requirements are silly. Most of them take less than two seconds, and require minimal effort for some in-game benefit. If you really feel 'dumb' doing them, then don't. Or simply ask your opponent if you can skip the requirement. My guess is most people would shrug and say 'let's get on with the game already'.
Thirdly - I was not 'white-knighting'. If that's the only response you have, I have to wonder if you bothered reading my post at all. There's -plenty- with this release to be alarmed about, but the crying in this thread about some of the 'fluff' mechanics is just silly. "OMG! I have to hide a dice in one hand and my opponent has to pick!" It's the same as rolling a d6 and succeeding on a 4+. Seriously - what is the big deal? If that's the biggest complaint some folks have, then I don't think the game is as bad as they make it out to be. There are -much- larger fish to fry.
Fourthly - I am sad to hear that you're walking away - without even trying a single game. With all that money in figs, and all those years invested, I would think spending a few hours trying the system (without spending a penny) wouldn't be a whole lot to ask. But apparently, that's too much for you and some of the others in this thread. To you and others like that - all we can do is wave.
But the bottom line is - this is the direction WHFB is going - with, or without you. You can sit in a thread in a forum and rage, you can give the game a shot, or you can move on. Those are just a few of your options. Sadly, GW doesn't care what you do, and most people on this forum don't care what you do, either. You're rightfully disappointed, as many of us are... but some of the things people rant about are just nonsensical. It really has such a miniscule effect on the game I don't understand how it really even matters.
But that's just me. Good luck to you in whatever game you pursue!
I was really positive about this, but having spent a morning reading the demon and goblin scrolls, I'm out.
Gutted, was hoping I could get rid of my Cryx, forget WM and get into this. I know you can just not do the stupid bits, but the rules are all a bit vague, there's honestly been no playtesting by the looks of it.
Hope it brings some younger people into the game, as it's clearly looking for the next generation of tabletop gamer
Except, you know, he CAN'T keep re-rolling saves as you can't re-roll a re-roll.
Kairos can only change a single dice roll per game, so only 1 of those 36 attack dice rolls is a 6.
You can easily ignore the silly 'dance/seduce' rules if you want, just tell your opponent you don't want either of you to look like a pair of twits.
I'll give you that the loss of banner heralds is annoying. I'm annoyed that I've lost Heirotitans for Tomb Kings. However there's no need to use hyperbole to make everything seem worse than it actually is...
At least Elves lost the dreaded BOTWD. That's got to be a plus for daemons .
PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote: I just can't believe the amount of stupid in the Daemons PDF *ALONE* Like, Skulltaker literally cannot die, he can keep rerolling failed saves... Gee, that's not broken at all? is it?
Generic Heralds with banners/steeds are gone. You can't use a herald of nurgle on palanquin, you have to use Epidemius.
Kairos can just change a result to anything you choose, Okay, my 36 attack die are all sixes. Skulltaker uses all 6's on his attack roll. He scores 3 mortal wounds per 6.
You have to dance to get the bonus for the Masque... You have to seduce a model... This is fething stupid...
EDIT: BTW, the guy who just used Minister of Predicaments from MTG as an example of regular design, that was a guest designed card specifically for M15, designed by David Sirlin, not by Wizards RnD. These new abilities are more closely compared to the MTG set Unhinged or Unglued... which aren't tournament legal BTW.
It would seem that GW have forgotten that many people still do play at LGS, and I doubt anyone is willing to look stupid just for a +1 bonus...
You may want to read the rules. Skulltakers do die because you only reroll a dice only once.
Kairos 's rule say you do it for a single dice roll, if you group multiple dice into a single roll, then it's your interpretation of the rules
Except, you know, he CAN'T keep re-rolling saves as you can't re-roll a re-roll.
Kairos can only change a single dice roll per game, so only 1 of those 36 attack dice rolls is a 6.
You can easily ignore the silly 'dance/seduce' rules if you want, just tell your opponent you don't want either of you to look like a pair of twits.
I'll give you that the loss of banner heralds is annoying. I'm annoyed that I've lost Heirotitans for Tomb Kings. However there's no need to use hyperbole to make everything seem worse than it actually is...
At least Elves lost the dreaded BOTWD. That's got to be a plus for daemons .
Show me in the Age of Sigmar rules where you can't keep rerolling.
Chaos lost Skarbrand too,
And the one that hurts more is the loss of Kugath... I mean REALLY!!?!?!
Except, you know, he CAN'T keep re-rolling saves as you can't re-roll a re-roll.
Kairos can only change a single dice roll per game, so only 1 of those 36 attack dice rolls is a 6.
You can easily ignore the silly 'dance/seduce' rules if you want, just tell your opponent you don't want either of you to look like a pair of twits.
I'll give you that the loss of banner heralds is annoying. I'm annoyed that I've lost Heirotitans for Tomb Kings. However there's no need to use hyperbole to make everything seem worse than it actually is...
At least Elves lost the dreaded BOTWD. That's got to be a plus for daemons .
Show me in the Age of Sigmar rules where you can't keep rerolling.
Chaos lost Skarbrand too,
And the one that hurts more is the loss of Kugath... I mean REALLY!!?!?!
@PlaguelordHobbyServices
The first page of the rule , under tools of war. "You can never reroll a dice more than once."
No, it's not. Which is why GW should have been capable of doing it themselves. You should never add a rule without knowing what that rule is meant to accomplish. Magic has used similar rules, but the rule done right makes it more than a different way of doing a coin flip - in the case of Master of Predicaments, the fact that picking an expensive card and your opponent guessing wrong gives you a bigger reward than picking a cheap card and your opponent guessing wrong encourages making an informed choice on both sides instead of the optimal play being pure randomness to avoid being predicted by your opponent.
There is literally no difference between you trying to 'predict' which hand I hide a dice in, or trying to 'predict' what a dice will roll, or what side a coin will land on. The odds are 50/50. Unless you can read minds, that is. Most coins have two sides. Most players have two hands. Most d6s have six sides and you have the same 50/50 chance to roll a 4-6 than you do a 1-3. What this mechanic is meant to accomplish is pretty obvious to me: a 50/50 chance to succeed at a given task. Nothing more, nothing less.
The mechanic is simple, really takes no more time than rolling the die, and is resolved and folks move on. If someone is so blatantly offended by this - simply roll the die instead, though it still baffles me how this simple mechanic is so offensive in the first place.
There's a long list of issues with this release, and this issue ranks right up there with 'I don't like the new logo!'. It's nonsensical and has no bearing on the game itself.
Except, you know, he CAN'T keep re-rolling saves as you can't re-roll a re-roll.
Kairos can only change a single dice roll per game, so only 1 of those 36 attack dice rolls is a 6.
You can easily ignore the silly 'dance/seduce' rules if you want, just tell your opponent you don't want either of you to look like a pair of twits.
I'll give you that the loss of banner heralds is annoying. I'm annoyed that I've lost Heirotitans for Tomb Kings. However there's no need to use hyperbole to make everything seem worse than it actually is...
At least Elves lost the dreaded BOTWD. That's got to be a plus for daemons .
Show me in the Age of Sigmar rules where you can't keep rerolling.
Chaos lost Skarbrand too,
And the one that hurts more is the loss of Kugath... I mean REALLY!!?!?!
It's on the first page... Please read the rules before condemning them.
Now I've read the warscrolls. Some of the humour made me chuckle (just a little)
If I was 9 years old I could get into this game for a few weeks maybe. Otherwise it's a game you could play a couple of times for laughs .
Anyone remember MTG Unglued? Seems like a miniature model version of that.
And yet we'll no doubt see people taking it uber seriously and trying to develop points and a tournament system....
:-(
They're treating their now probably former customers like children...
You know what made Fantasy so appealing at least in my view? There wasn't some generic "good guy" race that you could pick and paint up whatever random colors you wanted to... Fantasy had no space marines, and it was better for it.
Before this gak I was at least interested in the game, they just needed to fix two things, the magic rules, and model costs... But GW keeps acting like it costs more to make less... 10 dudes on tiny square bases shouldn't cost dang near $80... no more so than 5 dudes should cost $60, it was exploitation at it's worst.
I feel sorry for people who've spent thousands of dollars on large armies. GW didn't deserve your money because now they're treating you like children. Newsflash GW, children don't want to play your game, Literally, I've seen people interested in your models, but they look at the price tag and they immediately say "You're joking... There's no way I'm paying that much money for this" And they're right. They can play similar, better games at half the investment cost. From actual companies who care about game balance.
Seriously, this is a gigantic fethstorm and I expect there to be some mass exodus. Sure, the models are nice and all, but they aren't going to be used for AoS, that's for sure. Already seen a Sigmarite converted into a space marine, that's the true use for these models. Conversion bait.
No, it's not. Which is why GW should have been capable of doing it themselves. You should never add a rule without knowing what that rule is meant to accomplish. Magic has used similar rules, but the rule done right makes it more than a different way of doing a coin flip - in the case of Master of Predicaments, the fact that picking an expensive card and your opponent guessing wrong gives you a bigger reward than picking a cheap card and your opponent guessing wrong encourages making an informed choice on both sides instead of the optimal play being pure randomness to avoid being predicted by your opponent.
There is literally no difference between you trying to 'predict' which hand I hide a dice in, or trying to 'predict' what a dice will roll, or what side a coin will land on. The odds are 50/50. Unless you can read minds, that is. Most coins have two sides. Most players have two hands. Most d6s have six sides and you have the same 50/50 chance to roll a 4-6 than you do a 1-3. What this mechanic is meant to accomplish is pretty obvious to me: a 50/50 chance to succeed at a given task. Nothing more, nothing less.
I know, that's why I said what I did. If you have two rules that both do exactly the same thing in different ways, get rid of one of them. That's just good game design.
They (GW) and We (the gamers) NEED new blood or the hobby will die -its no use trying to keep selling to an ageing and declining number of people who want to play with toy soldiers - we need young people to join the game.
IF AOS accomplishes this then great - there are so many games to accomodate us old folks......
On the subject of silliness - have you played Magic - I remember plenty of coin tossing, chucking cards in the air and other fun before you even get to Unglued. Was that "just for kids"?
Call me a defender if you will, but I see no point falsely complaining about rules you've interpreted incorrectly or not fully understood.
And I doubt there'll be a 'Max Exodus'. Most people will just continue playing 8th and not care.
@ Mr Morden
Yes. Once you reach 18/21 (depending on where you live) it's unacceptable to have fun with silly things. All fun from then on must be serious. Twister and Charades are kids games because they're silly... just ignore the fact that Twister was invented as a game for adults and more adults probably play charades than kids...
Azazelx wrote: It depends on whether it's fun or not. Mikhala seemed to think the game itself was fun and the flaws were more with the lack of balancing. If the game is fun, then it's fun, after all.
On a slightly cynical note, Mikhala is financially invested in selling the game (unless he managed to get out those 80 copies of the game he pre-ordered). It would be very poor business sense to tell everyone it's crap, don't buy it, I'm not casting any aspersions on his character and I'm sure he did have fun...it's just obviously everyone in the world has different views on fun (some people even think Russell Brand is funny, go figure!).
Personally I loved the WFB world, I started collecting in 1985 and despite dabbling in 40K it has always been fantasy for me, at some point I have had between 3'000 and 12'000 points of every army GW has ever produced....then about 8 years ago the first of my 3 kids came along, the missus went to part time work and all my GW stuff got ebayed for more essential child related stuff. A year ago the missus went back to full time work so I decided to get back into the hobby. I was stunned at the cost of the miniatures, especially the single packaged ones, what happened to 5 miniatures for £2.50? And how many miniatures did I need in a Skaven army in a 3000 point army!? (Still remember when they were chaos Ratmen).
I decided to look at alternatives and on a skirmish level for painting purposes Godslayer, Arcworlde, Mierce etc....some were a swing and a miss, others brilliant. When I heard that WFB might be coming out in a skirmish form I was really excited, I loved the Chaos warbands from the Realm of Chaos era, unfortunately I am really disappointed how it has turned out. I love the data sheets, even the dumbing down of the rules I can appreciate for my 8 year old....it just the lack of structure (house rules aside), I cannot get past whole unorganised mess of it all. Yes, I can afford to go and buy 10 Bloodthirsters, but I always preferred a balanced theme based army it's just more enjoyable for both players. I had put aside quite a lot of money to get a decent sized skirmish force for Wood elves, Bretonnians, Dark Elves and Warriors of Chaos, but I think I'm going to stick to Mierce's Darklands for my skirmish games...and I'll see what in my 5000point Forgeworld chaos dwarf army can be used in KoW2 when the book comes out shortly.
Just to confirm, yes I do have a sense of humour, shouting out random crap whilst playing with toy soldiers is just not my Idea of fun...unless I've been drinking, but then everything is funny when I'm slightly intoxicated (apart from Russell Brand, he's still not funny even then).
Well if my local GW is anything to go by there were a hell of a lot of people pre-ordering the box when the doors first opened this morning. Many were very excited by the "daft" rules as well.
Whether those box set sales translate into a healthy community for AOS is an entirely different matter.
Mr Morden wrote: On the subject of silliness - have you played Magic - I remember plenty of coin tossing, chucking cards in the air and other fun before you even get to Unglued. Was that "just for kids"?
And there was a reason why WotC removed all the silly rules.
And yet we'll no doubt see people taking it uber seriously and trying to develop points and a tournament system....
:-(
There's already at least one thread here on Dakka of folks talking about army-building rules creation, and surely points-cost ideas will be soon to follow.
I would -expect- some folks to try to figure out a 'tournament system'. I know that Mik in this thread, a store-owner, is holding a tournament next weekend, so I am assuming he'll be using some sort of tournament system, too, even if it is one he might cobble together on his own.
People take all sorts of things 'seriously'. There are people who take Pokemon and Yughi-oh seriously. One person's joke is another person's passion.
Mine was the same, it was heaving and they had to replace the copies of white dwarf on the new releases shelf twice in the first 15 minutes. People seemed siked.
xowainx wrote: Mine was the same, it was heaving and they had to replace the copies of white dwarf on the new releases shelf twice in the first 15 minutes. People seemed siked.
Coventry here, and you Sir?
It was actually great to see a buzz in the store. A big 8th edition battle today and then AOS games start tomorrow.
I know, that's why I said what I did. If you have two rules that both do exactly the same thing in different ways, get rid of one of them. That's just good game design.
Ah, gotcha. Either go strictly with the dice, or strictly with the coin-flip, or strictly with the 'pick a hand'.
I don't necessarily agree that has anything to do with 'good game design', but that's probably for another thread. My bad for misunderstanding your original reply, Alex. My apologies.
Just to confirm, yes I do have a sense of humour, shouting out random crap whilst playing with toy soldiers is just not my Idea of fun...unless I've been drinking, but then everything is funny when I'm slightly intoxicated (apart from Russell Brand, he's still not funny even then).
This is perhaps the most annoying thing for me out of all the reactions to reactions; I find slapstick comedy incredibly cringeworthy but think Frankie Boyle is hilarious, others will wet themselves watching Three Stooges or Paul Blart but find Frankie crude and entirely unfunny - everyone knows people have different tastes and senses of humour, but in this case a few folk seem to be willfully ignoring that so they can brand anyone who thinks these amateur dramatics "rules" are daft and/or cringe-inducing and/or childish as dour, humourless automata.
If as some are suggesting this does end up being popular, well, I guess that's that then. I'll be in the corner rereading fluff from when GW weren't a joke and weeping for the future of humankind(and the future of 40K).
Solidcrash wrote: Oh my god! 20 page overnight!! Now it is impossible for me to read 200 missing page...
Any good bit please put it all in first page so I won't miss anything please?
I don't think I remember the last time a Fantasy thread hit 200
I think the only thing interesting that came up was the scenery. Which, I think, like the rest of the models kick ass. I'm quite certain I'll buy it & paint it (I am a terrain junkie), but I have no idea what I'll do with it, as it doesn't really fit the scifi meme. Maybe some ancient ruins of an abandoned Eldar homeworld or something. At least it looks kind of at home with Citadel Woods...
Mr Morden wrote: On the subject of silliness - have you played Magic - I remember plenty of coin tossing, chucking cards in the air and other fun before you even get to Unglued. Was that "just for kids"?
And there was a reason why WotC removed all the silly rules.
After my time - I remember it being fun......as this looks to be - but different strokes.
Personally more than in touch with my inner child....
The company that gave us Space hulk, Necromunda, Mordheim, Epic 40k, BFG Blood Bowl et al has been reduced to people shouting the loudest across the table, as part of the rules
GW have well and truly burnt their bridges with me. Like Obi Wan Kenobi, I will remember Anakin Skywalker as the good, decent, brave, and honourable man, and not the evil machine he became.
That's how I feel right now. The game I loved for 25 years has been reduced to this cluster feth!!
I you love 40k, PLEASE DON'T BUY THIS GAME. I know some people will be tempted by the models, but if the models sell well, GW will think they're on to a winner with this approach and 40K will be next for the AOS treatment.
Dakka members: what is KOW? Talk to me, please. Because right now I'm all ears. I need something to get me away from this AOS cluster feth!!!
I know people are focused on the free warscrolls because they are the bit we have in our hands and what ties our old minis tot he new game.
here is the thing, those rules, to me, are a big red flag that you really are not supposed to use your old minis in this game, its just a troll on those who want to. (itself a poor choice when those being trolled are, you know, paying customers)
Having seen the size of the minis in the new boxset, none of them are the same scale as the old ones, the new chaos stuff would look ridiculous next to the existing ones. They are so big I don't even think the old style scenery (houses and so on, anything with a door) will look right. I suspect that moving forwards, everything will be the new scale, they look, to my eyes, clser to the 35mm scale of the fallen Frontiers game by Scale75 than they do to GW standard heroic we are used to.
Mr Morden wrote: On the subject of silliness - have you played Magic - I remember plenty of coin tossing, chucking cards in the air and other fun before you even get to Unglued. Was that "just for kids"?
And there was a reason why WotC removed all the silly rules.
After my time - I remember it being fun......as this looks to be - but different strokes.
Personally more than in touch with my inner child....
Surprisingly a lot of people didn't like tearing up or tossing their valuable card collection. Or betting them against a friend. Weird, I know.
Also surprising is a lot of people don't like the idea of shouting and dancing in public spaces.
Dakka members: what is KOW? Talk to me, please. Because right now I'm all ears. I need something to get me away from this AOS cluster feth!!!
KOW is the mantic fantasy game. They are releasing the free rules for version 2.0 on July 10th. No it is not a coincidence, I've not played it, but I do know that it has been in beta a while with actual players involved in the testing and so on with direct input to mantic on how to make the game as good as it can be.
They also have official rules for 'other manufacturers armies' either in the pipeline or already on their website.
The company that gave us Space hulk, Necromunda, Mordheim, Epic 40k, BFG Blood Bowl et al has been reduced to people shouting the loudest across the table, as part of the rules
GW have well and truly burnt their bridges with me. Like Obi Wan Kenobi, I will remember Anakin Skywalker as the good, decent, brave, and honourable man, and not the evil machine he became.
That's how I feel right now. The game I loved for 25 years has been reduced to this cluster feth!!
I you love 40k, PLEASE DON'T BUY THIS GAME. I know some people will be tempted by the models, but if the models sell well, GW will think they're on to a winner with this approach and 40K will be next for the AOS treatment.
Dakka members: what is KOW? Talk to me, please. Because right now I'm all ears. I need something to get me away from this AOS cluster feth!!!
Ironically I would say the opposite - its going back to its roots in terms of the humour........they also gave us Paranoia IIRC?
Wow, the models do have to be seen in person, absolutely stunning.
After hearing the run down from staff, things are a bit clearer and I will give it a chance I suppose. Although it was a bit awkward as soon as the first person asked if there were any points or composition guidelines. The game is definitely advertised as a more relaxed game and opinions were mixed in the shop, everyone loves the models, the fluff is a good start but everyone has the same concerns. Discussing it there though did quell them a bit but as its been said before, only time will tell.
Agreeing with your opponent. I will see how this goes, most people in my local GW are pretty sound so I doubt anyone will pull any cheese and expect a game.
The new terrain and the rules for them sound awesome, teleporting shenanigans and golden archway dragon traps brah!
The posters outside the shop and the big artwork spread, lawdy lawd.
The face of someone when I told them about Konrads rule....priceless.
I'm bit annoyed this weeks WD sold out almost instantly (on the UK webstore at least) - I am about to leave to go on hols for a week, so wont have a chance to get to store to grab one
Free rules AND a free miniature in one issue, who would have thought that would sell well?
Does anyone know if they are likely to do reprint/restock? has an issue ever been this popular before?
The company that gave us Space hulk, Necromunda, Mordheim, Epic 40k, BFG Blood Bowl et al has been reduced to people shouting the loudest across the table, as part of the rules
GW have well and truly burnt their bridges with me. Like Obi Wan Kenobi, I will remember Anakin Skywalker as the good, decent, brave, and honourable man, and not the evil machine he became.
That's how I feel right now. The game I loved for 25 years has been reduced to this cluster feth!!
I you love 40k, PLEASE DON'T BUY THIS GAME. I know some people will be tempted by the models, but if the models sell well, GW will think they're on to a winner with this approach and 40K will be next for the AOS treatment.
Dakka members: what is KOW? Talk to me, please. Because right now I'm all ears. I need something to get me away from this AOS cluster feth!!!
Welcome to Kings of War, where no one will bat an eye if you use your old Warhammer models (or any other models) to play it. Where it is fairly balanced, tactical, and is a true massive fantasy battle wargame. Rules are free, too.
There's no also stopping anyone from playing the old Warhammer World using KoW rules. Give it a try. The more players playing KoW, the more opponents we have.
On topic, any clearer photos of the terrain? They look amazing although I don't think they'd fit the board I'm making. I wish they'd look more like European architecture, but then again GW is trying to make their stuff less generic.
Dakka members: what is KOW? Talk to me, please. Because right now I'm all ears. I need something to get me away from this AOS cluster feth!!!
KOW is the mantic fantasy game. They are releasing the free rules for version 2.0 on July 10th. No it is not a coincidence, I've not played it, but I do know that it has been in beta a while with actual players involved in the testing and so on with direct input to mantic on how to make the game as good as it can be.
They also have official rules for 'other manufacturers armies' either in the pipeline or already on their website.
The company that gave us Space hulk, Necromunda, Mordheim, Epic 40k, BFG Blood Bowl et al has been reduced to people shouting the loudest across the table, as part of the rules
GW have well and truly burnt their bridges with me. Like Obi Wan Kenobi, I will remember Anakin Skywalker as the good, decent, brave, and honourable man, and not the evil machine he became.
That's how I feel right now. The game I loved for 25 years has been reduced to this cluster feth!!
I you love 40k, PLEASE DON'T BUY THIS GAME. I know some people will be tempted by the models, but if the models sell well, GW will think they're on to a winner with this approach and 40K will be next for the AOS treatment.
Dakka members: what is KOW? Talk to me, please. Because right now I'm all ears. I need something to get me away from this AOS cluster feth!!!
Ironically I would say the opposite - its going back to its roots in terms of the humour........they also gave us Paranoia IIRC?
Yes, GW had some humour back in the day, but when it came to making rules, they never abandoned ship like this lot.
The company that gave us Space hulk, Necromunda, Mordheim, Epic 40k, BFG Blood Bowl et al has been reduced to people shouting the loudest across the table, as part of the rules ...
That's how I feel right now. The game I loved for 25 years has been reduced to this cluster feth!!
That's exactly how I feel. Put simply, if you're any kind of wargamer at all, then you're simply not the target for this game.
It's incredible how they could have fallen so far. No points values or balancing mechanism? Doing a dance when you are rolling dice? Give me a fething break.
I don't think any long-term wargamer could have imagined quite how bad this could be.
The company that gave us Space hulk, Necromunda, Mordheim, Epic 40k, BFG Blood Bowl et al has been reduced to people shouting the loudest across the table, as part of the rules ...
That's how I feel right now. The game I loved for 25 years has been reduced to this cluster feth!!
That's exactly how I feel. Put simply, if you're any kind of wargamer at all, then you're simply not the target for this game.
It's incredible how they could have fallen so far. No points values or balancing mechanism? Doing a dance when you are rolling dice? Give me a fething break.
I don't think any long-term wargamer could have imagined quite how bad this could be.
Pacific, have you ever had a faithful family pet, like a dog or a cat, that lived for 20 years or something? And then the day came you had to take it to the Vet because it was too ill, and you didn't want to see it suffer...
Funny how this idiocy makes me want to completly stop buying 40k as well, not because of fear that similar rules might make it there (40k could actualy use a simplified though balanced ruleset like that as it's not like it would loose any tactical options anyway, unlike whfb) but thanks to how off putting the company is now for me. Not talking about pennies either, this month I already bought an Imperial Knight and Glottkin to convert into Nurgle knight also Helldrake and Forgefiend to mix and match. Last month it was skeletons, Grave Guard, Hexwraiths and 4 VC characters. I was going to order at least $200 equivalent of Empire next few weeks.
But good riddance I guess, the waac is gone with his "I want to think instead of pushing models off the table while making up a story" bs.
BlaxicanX wrote: It boggles my mind that people are still trying to figure out a way to adapt this into a tournament/pick-up tier game?
WHY? Why not just play 8th edition fantasy in tournaments and pick-ups? Like it makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever why anyone would bother going through the house-rule hell of trying to "balance" a game that is unequivocally built from the ground up to NOT be a serious tactical game. Age of Sigmar is literally in the same genre of games as Trouble, Mouse-Trap and Perfection.
Like, someone explain this phenomenon to me.
Exactly this, also anyone who wants actual wargame should boycott this garbage and if you want models for 40k, Sanguinary Guard looks better anyway.
A lot of people defending Age of Silly because narrative are probably the same people that rejected kings of war because 8th was "more detailed and therefore more narrative" and how they loved personality to their armies.
Move on, nothing to salvage here. Good game to play and mock for an hour of bs while drunk but that's it, for normal play it's either old editions or alternate rulesets and the more people ignore Ark of Stupid and play those, the higher the chance to find a game and that GW will fix this crap. Not counting on that last thing though lol.
I think they're really trying to aim for the board game crowd on this. And I think it's a legitimate move: board games are big right now, and I could've done the same if I believe just fixing the mistakes in WHFB just won't cut it.
That still doesn't excuse the poor rules.
Imagine what if they did this with 40k? What would the general reaction be?
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: People laugh at Steve the Warboss's rubbish rumours, but right now, I'd my right arm for those rumours to be true, because this mess is far worse...
God Almighty, I'd settle for a Mat Ward ruleset right now!!!
NO NO NO! You take those filthy words back right now!
I may be forced to play a few games of AoS with mates. So I withold some of my prior judgement until I have played. But, sweet mother! the old minis suffer in comparison to the new Custodes and the Bloody Blood Bloods. They are giants.
I am literally that guy who said he wasn't going to buy it because it looked rubbish and when the day came ordered it anyway. Expect I'm probably not alone. The box is just too pretty and the Khorne models are some of the best they've ever done in my opinion - discounting the stupid giant satan thing, anyway. They've won me over with the warscrolls for the existing range too, some thought has gone into them (if not the balancing side of life).
I'm also really interested in this 94 page fluff book just to see if it's any good or a load of old cobblers. Bah, I've got more money than sense.
heartserenade wrote: I think they're really trying to aim for the board game crowd on this. And I think it's a legitimate move: board games are big right now, and I could've done the same if I believe just fixing the mistakes in WHFB just won't cut it.
That still doesn't excuse the poor rules.
Imagine what if they did this with 40k? What would the general reaction be?
If thats the case they are still failing to grasp what their business is.
heartserenade wrote: I think they're really trying to aim for the board game crowd on this. And I think it's a legitimate move: board games are big right now, and I could've done the same if I believe just fixing the mistakes in WHFB just won't cut it.
That still doesn't excuse the poor rules.
Imagine what if they did this with 40k? What would the general reaction be?
If thats the case they are still failing to grasp what their business is.
That's what happens if you don't do market research.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: People laugh at Steve the Warboss's rubbish rumours, but right now, I'd my right arm for those rumours to be true, because this mess is far worse...
God Almighty, I'd settle for a Mat Ward ruleset right now!!!
NO NO NO! You take those filthy words back right now!
I may be forced to play a few games of AoS with mates. So I withold some of my prior judgement until I have played. But, sweet mother! the old minis suffer in comparison to the new Custodes and the Bloody Blood Bloods. They are giants.
I don't say this lightly, but I miss the Mat Ward days
So I've given the KoW rules a wee read, and I know I'm making the switch. Will still be using my GW models, though. Mantic's are... not to my taste (apart from their undead, they are quite nice.)
I'll only get worried about the "silly" rules, when I hear someone playing the WOW-cardgame actually crying LEEEEROY JENKINS when he plays the card. I think in a normal gaming circle, and even during pickup games, it can be understood that theese rules are the rulewriters attempt at beeing funny, and tongue in cheek, nothing more, nothing less.
That said, the lack of any kind of balancing mechanic is just stupid:
Winning clearly isn't the goal of any game, even if you enjoy it. The fun part is either overcomming an equal enemy, or seeing your modells act in a way which is conductive to a good narrative (meaningfull conflict would be the buzzword here). A decently balanced game benefits all gamers, the casuals, the pros, the roleplayers and the beer and pretzel crowd.
If you first have to spend time to figure out how both sides can stand on equal footing, then that's plain and simple a oversight of the game-designers.
Funny that people are even discussing the fateweaver/skaven combo allready. Unfortunately, if you try to roll 2d6, you can't get a 13. Changing the result of one of the dice won't do it either.
Doesn't matter. The dice are immaterial. He can change the result of a roll to the result of his choice. "I rolled a 7, but the table has a 13. I choose that result instead. I win. GG"
.
Or simply roll 2D12 or 2D20,...what?!..., nowhere does it says that you must roll 2D6's, it just says rolls 2 dices, and as far as i know nowhere in the rules does it says that you are limited only to D6's, while it does indeed tells you to use D6's when rolling for stuff, there is no rule that says " you cannot use any other kind of dices", just like this rule says "roll 2 dices" and not "roll 2D6's"...
See?, thats GW forging a narrative with your arse...
Funny that people are even discussing the fateweaver/skaven combo allready. Unfortunately, if you try to roll 2d6, you can't get a 13. Changing the result of one of the dice won't do it either.
Doesn't matter. The dice are immaterial. He can change the result of a roll to the result of his choice. "I rolled a 7, but the table has a 13. I choose that result instead. I win. GG"
.
Or simply roll 2D12 or 2D20,...what?!..., nowhere does it says that you must roll 2D6's, it just says rolls 2 dices, and as far as i know nowhere in the rules does it says that you are limited only to D6's, while it does indeed tells you to use D6's when rolling for stuff, there is no rule that says " you cannot use any other kind of dices", just like this rule says "roll 2 dices" and not "roll 2D6's"...
See?, thats GW forging a narrative with your arse...
Read the rules, please. D6 is the default, on the first page. But if you want to roll d6 with vaule over 6, then that's another story.
Or simply roll 2D12 or 2D20,...what?!..., nowhere does it says that you must roll 2D6's, it just says rolls 2 dices, and as far as i know nowhere in the rules does it says that you are limited only to D6's, while it does indeed tells you to use D6's when rolling for stuff, there is no rule that says " you cannot use any other kind of dices", just like this rule says "roll 2 dices" and not "roll 2D6's"...
See?, thats GW forging a narrative with your arse...
It's no wonder GW had to simplify rules, even with just 4 pages you still it up.
Page one of the main rules says it uses D6.
Admittedly it doesn't say it doesn't use other kinds of dice... but then the same could be said for 40k. 40k doesn't say you can't use other dice, it just says almost all dice rolls are made with D6s.
heartserenade wrote: I think they're really trying to aim for the board game crowd on this.
Disagree though. If we hold up the board game comparison, imagine playing Risk where A starts with 40 countries and B with 5. Not a very fun-promising game.
heartserenade wrote: I think they're really trying to aim for the board game crowd on this.
Disagree though. If we hold up the board game comparison, imagine playing Risk where A starts with 40 countries and B with 5. Not a very fun-promising game.
Depends if those 5 countries include Australia. Once someone holes up in Australia, they aren't going anywhere
quickfuze wrote: So you think having to spend two hours negotiating how and what is going to be in the game, house rules, clarifications and what is an even battle is the foundation For a good game?
What kind of friends do you have that it takes two hours to say "let's not use Special Characters, they are silly"?
Some obscure polynesian languages are surprisingly verbiose.
I feel so bad for the WHFB players right now. Ridiculously silly 'rules' on the warscrolls, no points values or other effective balancing mechanism, and the main rules reduced to 4 pages. I never would have expected this level of oversimplification. I'm a 40k player and I would be very upset if that suffered the same treatment. (Ive often considered Fantasy, but that's not going to happen now.)
I'm very confused about GW's motivation in this. It's clear that this is intended as an entry game for children, and there was a gap in the market for that, but fething this is beyond. I remember playing Heroquest and Space Crusade as a child. Those were fantastic entry games and were incredibly detailed and mature compared to this absurdity.
And why on earth couldn't they keep the main Fantasy rules alive alongside AoS? Maybe as a free download if they don't want to stock the books. Call it Advanced Warhammer or something? That way everyone is kept happy and they have a broader potential customer base. Surely the point of an entry game is to generate interest in the more complex rules systems that have better longevity.
It was so exciting to graduate to Advanced Heroquest and 40k, and that provided GW with a loyal long term customer. Through various feth-ups and poor business decisions (ending bitz, raising prices, what they did to White Dwarf, Finecast, the end of specialist games, Aos, etc etc etc) they have basically lost that loyal custom. I haven't bought anything in ages now. I WAS planning to buy some Fantasy minis for conversions, but now I will not because I don't want to endorse AoS.
heartserenade wrote: I think they're really trying to aim for the board game crowd on this. And I think it's a legitimate move: board games are big right now, and I could've done the same if I believe just fixing the mistakes in WHFB just won't cut it.
I've seen a lot of statements like this:
"They're trying to lure 40k players / narrative gamers / casual players / people who love board games"
Well, that's all me. I've got a decent 40k Chaos army, I only really play with a small group of mates, and we are certainly not competitive. I probably spend more money on buying new board games than I do on Warhammer truth be told! I was hoping this new Fanatsy Warhammer game would be my gateway back into it all, after play 15 or so years ago.
Instead I am feeling totally jaded about everything GW right now. I can't imagine buying anything with their name on at the moment, and I may jsut have to stop playing and back away. This idiocy is just making me so angry and sad at the wasted opportunity and goodwill.
I mean, Bloodsecrator? What sort of fethed up nonsense is that word and model?
This is like the Highlander: Endgame of tabletop wargames. You go in with the lowest of expectations, realise immediately that it's even worse, then try to wrap your brain around all these creative new ways of sucking ass. Rationally you know it's some really funny gak, but despite yourself you're too invested to laugh.
If the zaniness is a well-concidered part of the game then it'll be awkward, embarrasing and (mostly) unfunny. If it's them trolling fans of the established game/setting then it's just GW adding insult to injury. Either way, what the hell.
I don't see any reason to try and make this game work as a replacement for Warhammer. Just switch to another system or use one of the older editions. Or write your own game from scratch.
heartserenade wrote: I think they're really trying to aim for the board game crowd on this.
Disagree though. If we hold up the board game comparison, imagine playing Risk where A starts with 40 countries and B with 5. Not a very fun-promising game.
No, it's Risk with no rules for who starts with what. Who would even agree to play at 40:5?
Of course, GW's main failing for the past decade has been in assuming that players are reasonable people and they keep pushing this angle despite all evidence to the contrary. You people don't seem to grasp that the entire game is "opponent's permission". Even with the points system, you couldn't actually field any particular force against me if I didn't let you. By doing away with points, they did away with this insane notion you have that you can force me to play something I don't want to, just because it's "official".
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Page one of the main rules says it uses D6.
Admittedly it doesn't say it doesn't use other kinds of dice... but then the same could be said for 40k. 40k doesn't say you can't use other dice, it just says almost all dice rolls are made with D6s.
Good grief people, of all the things to criticize here... All of GW's rulesets are positively defined rulesets; only those things you are allowed to do are defined, nothing else is permitted. Until other dice are *specified* you roll D6's.
(I do applaud you for finding the one thing that's not actually an ambiguity or example of poor/no balance, though )
Bull0 wrote: I am literally that guy who said he wasn't going to buy it because it looked rubbish and when the day came ordered it anyway.
Not me. I talked a lot of gak when the leaks came in, but I was still prepared to change my mind if, indeed, it all came together in the end like the GW fanboys said it would after the rest of the rules came out. Now that the warscrolls are up and things are even worse than I could have possibly imagined, I wouldn't even spend a penny on those models second hand. I honestly wouldn't let you give them to me, I don't want to touch this or any other WHF product ever again, and not only that but I'm panicking now because I'm quit heavily invested in 40k and don't want to see all that go to waste when GW inevitably pulls this gak over there.
I'd sooner write the god-damned rules myself than suffer the embarrassment of trying to play a game with this garbage. 7th can't be that hard to fix.
Going to get drunk with my mates and then try this. KOW for 'serious' play all the way. AoS sounds good for a giggle.
Having read through the rules and the warscrolls I don't believe the silly actions are anywhere near as big a part of the game as people are making out. They are only on a very small number of scrolls for iinstance. They look fairly easy to leave out, though, and as I don't intend to play this 'seriously' its not going to be a problem. That said, if everyone has had a few...
I wonder if I can mount a small speaker in Konrad's base and record something stupid for him to say?
Bull0 wrote: I am literally that guy who said he wasn't going to buy it because it looked rubbish and when the day came ordered it anyway.
Not me. I talked a lot of gak when the leaks came in, but I was still prepared to change my mind if, indeed, it all came together in the end like the GW fanboys said it would after the rest of the rules came out. Now that the warscrolls are up and things are even worse than I could have possibly imagined, I wouldn't even spend a penny on those models second hand. I honestly wouldn't let you give them to me, I don't want to touch this or any other WHF product ever again, and not only that but I'm panicking now because I'm quit heavily invested in 40k and don't want to see all that go to waste when GW inevitably pulls this gak over there.
I'd sooner write the god-damned rules myself than suffer the embarrassment of trying to play a game with this garbage. 7th can't be that hard to fix.
Yeah, I share most of your concerns to be honest, I just really want those nice Khorne models.
heartserenade wrote: I think they're really trying to aim for the board game crowd on this.
Disagree though. If we hold up the board game comparison, imagine playing Risk where A starts with 40 countries and B with 5. Not a very fun-promising game.
I'm going to steal a post from Warseer as Harry, and Nigel Stillman, sums up my one of my main issues with AOS very well.
Army lists, points and balance .... Army lists, points are not just about balance, competative or tournament play. They are about enjoyment of the game.
Let me just share this with you ....
"By means of the lists it is possible to work out armies of a fixed points value, which, when set against each other should result in battles where the outcome is decided by the players skill". This is surely key to the enjoyment of playing and indeed winning. I want to be able to say 'well played mate' when I loose. Without balance two good friends trying to play a fair game are going to be saying to one another ... 'sorry mate, that looked about balanced but you never stood a chance'.
"Army lists fulfil another important function, in that the existence of a list defines the 'personality' of an army". Oh! Sir! suits you sir! I want to play against characterful armies .... tightly themed armies ... a thing of beauty on the table .... not some mish mash of units collected from across all the ranges.
"providing a useful template around which to build an army" Yes! Thats what i'm talking about. We don't just collect stuff at random, We collect stuff in sets ... that fit together. We collect them in numbers to fill out slots in lists. We collect stuff to have everything in a set. They do not seem to understand the first thing about boys collecting toys???
and here is my favorite bit ......
Should you wish to pack up your army, travel to some distant place, set up your troops on a far flung table and challenge all-comers to a game of Warhammer Fantasy Battle, now you can do so in the true and certain knowledge that even if the enemy cannot speak your language they will probably be quite at ease about the composition of your army" What a beautiful notion that is ... I **** you not it brings a tear to my eye.
Where did those quotes come from? Our Lord, Nigel Stillman Warhammer Armies 3rd edition.
Silent Puffin? wrote: I'm going to steal a post from Warseer as Harry, and Nigel Stillman, sums up my one of my main issues with AOS very well.
Army lists, points and balance .... Army lists, points are not just about balance, competative or tournament play. They are about enjoyment of the game.
Let me just share this with you ....
"By means of the lists it is possible to work out armies of a fixed points value, which, when set against each other should result in battles where the outcome is decided by the players skill". This is surely key to the enjoyment of playing and indeed winning. I want to be able to say 'well played mate' when I loose. Without balance two good friends trying to play a fair game are going to be saying to one another ... 'sorry mate, that looked about balanced but you never stood a chance'.
"Army lists fulfil another important function, in that the existence of a list defines the 'personality' of an army". Oh! Sir! suits you sir! I want to play against characterful armies .... tightly themed armies ... a thing of beauty on the table .... not some mish mash of units collected from across all the ranges.
"providing a useful template around which to build an army" Yes! Thats what i'm talking about. We don't just collect stuff at random, We collect stuff in sets ... that fit together. We collect them in numbers to fill out slots in lists. We collect stuff to have everything in a set. They do not seem to understand the first thing about boys collecting toys???
and here is my favorite bit ......
Should you wish to pack up your army, travel to some distant place, set up your troops on a far flung table and challenge all-comers to a game of Warhammer Fantasy Battle, now you can do so in the true and certain knowledge that even if the enemy cannot speak your language they will probably be quite at ease about the composition of your army" What a beautiful notion that is ... I **** you not it brings a tear to my eye.
Where did those quotes come from? Our Lord, Nigel Stillman Warhammer Armies 3rd edition.
Very true. Points values and decent lists isn't just about competitive play or tournament play, it's about being able to put down a playable game where the outcome isn't determined in the army selection phase.
It doesn't matter how "reasonable" players might be, if you have no reference to the value of different units, you have no starting point for determining what might work for a game.
I find points values important even for narrative games. What if you're trying to forge the narrative of a desperate last stand against unfathomable odds? You don't want the game to last 2 turns with your the last standers being wiped out almost instantly because that's boring. You also don't want to go too far the other way and have the last standers actually winning them game Without points for a reference and/or a lot of past experience all you can hope to do is somewhat randomly put units down and forge the narrative of "something random happens".
Something you can easily house rule to ignore.
House-ruling points takes a lot more work, though.
Probably less work than house-ruling against existing points written into a rulebook. Getting a tourny to accept that an Eldar Wraithknight should probably be closer to 1200 points than the 400 points it is quoted in the rulebook is near impossible, all things considered. Points from scratch might be easier to swallow for people.
Alpharius wrote: It really does look like AoS is really going to help boost GW's Mantic's sales, doesn't it?
At least one company in Nottingham will be happy!
Latest Mantic newsletter is encouraging pre-orders of the KoW rulebook as they expect to sell out of the first print run due to (paraphrasing here) "a sudden increase in interest... for some reason"
It occurred to me this afternoon that with all the proposed attempt to create tournament friendly house rules, the one way this game would work is to follow the card game precedent, and run it as a blind draft...
Basically, everyone provides a pool of minis, you pile up all the corresponding warscrolls, shuffle them up, and deal them out randomly to each player. Possibly set a cap - each player gets 10 scrolls, you use 7 of those 10 to make your list, sort of thing.
Obviously, it would rely on players not minding other people using their stuff... But it would help counter the inherent issues in list building without having to balance anything.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Very true. Points values and decent lists isn't just about competitive play or tournament play, it's about being able to put down a playable game where the outcome isn't determined in the army selection phase.
It doesn't matter how "reasonable" players might be, if you have no reference to the value of different units, you have no starting point for determining what might work for a game.
I find points values important even for narrative games. What if you're trying to forge the narrative of a desperate last stand against unfathomable odds? You don't want the game to last 2 turns with your the last standers being wiped out almost instantly because that's boring. You also don't want to go too far the other way and have the last standers actually winning them game Without points for a reference and/or a lot of past experience all you can hope to do is somewhat randomly put units down and forge the narrative of "something random happens".
All I know is that this weekend I'm bringing 7 dark elf assassins to the table. Sudden death rules, assassination, pick your VIP and I'll murder it.
The art of the Dwarf with the weird fire dragon thing looked badass. I really like the models and art, the rules are the let down. It's irritating, could've been really cool with some points and less of the weird rules.
I'm thinking it's only a matter of time until they decide to Sigmar 40K, so taking the timing thing into account I will be putting my Dark Angels up on eBay. I'm keeping my Ork Boyz as it looks like those will be usable with Mantic's Warpath game and of course my Empire, O&G, Dwarf, and Lizardman armies will beplayed under KoW rules, so no need to sell them off.
Check the pic with the massive battle between khorne, with the bloodthirsters everywere, you can spot retributors with halberds and axes and hero looking guy with a big sword, also in the back are some BIG angel dudes, I must have them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: HOLY a pet griffon thing HHHNNNNNNGGG
Riquende wrote: So James Hewitt (ex-Mantic community manager) goes to work at GW designing rules, this happens, and now Mantic can expect a boost to KoW sales.
Check the pic with the massive battle between khorne, with the bloodthirsters everywere, you can spot retributors with halberds and axes and hero looking guy with a big sword, also in the back are some BIG angel dudes, I must have them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: HOLY a pet griffon thing HHHNNNNNNGGG
I think the angel dudes are just normal angel dudes, GW can be kinda bad at photoshopping perspective in these army shots. They seem to be armed with spears in lieu of hammers, tho.
I'm seeing a lot of people saying that this is more of a 'skirmish' game than Warhammer was, but the only recommendation for army sizes I've seen from GW says 'around a hundred miniatures per side', which doesn't seem that small (smaller than WFB, granted).
There are people who keep defending funny rules in this game, and criticizing people who dislike funny rules in this game.
Disliking funny rules in this game doesn't make you a humorless git. Maybe disliking funny rules in ALL games, but in one? No.
I play Munchkin. It has a good amount of funny rules. The basic game is $25 and requires no preparation. You can, but are in no way required to, buy non-random expansions which give you more cards, which also require no preparation. 3-5 people can play this game for $25 total, and the only setup time is shuffling two decks of cards. The game is perfect for silly rules. It's inexpensive; it's quick to pick up; it requires no time investment other than playing the game. On top of that, the game is actually complex, as many cards affect gameplay (some cards affect rules, others give you special rules, etc.). If your opponent isn't in the mood for silliness, your $25 investment and the time spent unwrapping the box is wasted until you find another opponent (or someone's mood shifts).
AoS is a poor choice, to me, for a game with silly rules. Being able to play the game requires a substantial investment of time and money (and even if you are using your old models, you had to buy, assemble, and paint those--even if it wasn't for this game). There's never been anything preventing the players who want to be a bit silly from being silly. If I wanted to yell "Waaagh!" when I charged my orcs, I could have. But the game itself didn't present that as a requirement for the person who wanted to buy, assemble, and paint a unit of orcs. It didn't tell the person who wanted to buy and paint and assemble Settra to plan on awkward games, since kneeling loses the game. The guy who carefully packs away dozens of painted models to transport them to the club but who doesn't feel like playing against the grunting, braying Beastman player might get to pack them all back up and go home.
Being a miniature wargame, AoS already imposes substantial burdens of cost and time on the player. Layering silly rules requirements on some models as well is a poor choice. If this was a free side-game in White Dwarf, awesome! Drop some silly rules on us! But even though this is a free ruleset, it is a core ruleset that still uses models you need to buy, paint and assemble.
Of course we can ignore or modify those rules. You've always been able to ignore or modify rules you didn't like----until you meet another player who has a different set of ignored or modified rules. Imposing a requirement of negotiating each game with each new player also seems burdensome for an expensive, time-consuming hobby.
*And for the person who thinks these rules are funny, I would point you to Wulfrik the Wanderer. His 'funny' rules:
Issue your opponent with a challenge of your own – you can be as mocking, rude or insulting as you dare; if your opponent rises to the bait and they change expression, even so much as crack a smile or a glimmer of shock, Wulfrik’s challenge is successful and you can re-roll failed hit rolls for any attacks he makes this phase against enemy Heroes.
So, by the rules, be as 'insulting as you dare'. The person who buys Wulfrik now has a special rule that he may not get to benefit from, or a special rule that may alienate his opponents, and it's official! How "funny"!
Requiring the player to actually issue a challenge might have been funny. Giving them a rules benefit for amusing OR shocking their opponent---not so much.
Any success for AOS = 40k getting the same treatment.
It's definitely not that simple.
Agreed.
40k hasn't been in a slump for years, if not decades. At worst you might get a rule in the Ork book requiring you to yell "WAAAAGH!" when Waaghing your Boys, but that would likely be the extent...
Any success for AOS = 40k getting the same treatment.
It's definitely not that simple.
I think GW already has plans in the pipeline to Sigmar 40K. I also do not believe there will be anything to stop them from Sigmarring 40K short of a dismal failure for AoS.
got a good look at the Krazy Khorne Kastle in the trailer. I'm not going to be able to "resist" that one if it is in fact a kit. Looks like it might be a new warhammer fortress style jobby with towers and walls rather than the 40k-type big moulded ones?
Check the pic with the massive battle between khorne, with the bloodthirsters everywere, you can spot retributors with halberds and axes and hero looking guy with a big sword, also in the back are some BIG angel dudes, I must have them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: HOLY a pet griffon thing HHHNNNNNNGGG
I think the angel dudes are just normal angel dudes, GW can be kinda bad at photoshopping perspective in these army shots. They seem to be armed with spears in lieu of hammers, tho.
Might be but I sure do love that alternate scheme, they look like the celestial marble colour armoured guys which is the force I wanna do and those prosecutors with spears look quite striking. Reminds of Archangel Imperius from Diablo and thats something that pleases me greatly.
shooty sigmarites (from Adeptus Astartes on facebook)
These Sigmarites are growing on me
Well bloody resist it!!!
Any success for AOS = 40k getting the same treatment.
I would be perfectly happy with this if it had points and FOC - that seems to be the only thing wrong with it from my pov - I am not keen on 7th ed since we got stuck with the "magic phase" and other inovations.
Any success for AOS = 40k getting the same treatment.
It's definitely not that simple.
I think GW already has plans in the pipeline to Sigmar 40K. I also do not believe there will be anything to stop them from Sigmarring 40K short of a dismal failure for AoS.
The whole reason why they did this is that Fantasy has been in a huge slump.
40k, while declining a bit, isn't in such poor shape that a single kit from the Fantasy range outsells the entirety of their 40k range.
There are people who keep defending funny rules in this game, and criticizing people who dislike funny rules in this game.
Disliking funny rules in this game doesn't make you a humorless git. Maybe disliking funny rules in ALL games, but in one? No.
By the sem token - liking these elements does not make you a mindless 5year old child as other posters have been implying. Its a question of what you like and do not like - so people are or are not going to agree.
Well bloody resist it!!! Any success for AOS = 40k getting the same treatment.
I would be perfectly happy with this if it had points and FOC - that seems to be the only thing wrong with it from my pov - I am not keen on 7th ed since we got stuck with the "magic phase" and other inovations.
And since the rules are all in free PDFs now it will be easy for them to add that stuff later - I see the legacy warscrolls as a temporary measure to be honest to stop people from completely losing their gak over their old models becoming "unplayable" or whatever. I'm giving GW a lot of credit there though, it's just as likely the warscrolls will all go offline next week once the game ships and they'll tell us all to get fethed. Time will tell
I saw a reference to the halfling hot pot catapult but I didn't see anything for lumpin croop's band, regular halfling archers, or spearmen either. Did I miss those or are they gone as well?
Listening very carefully, i noticed that the words "current" and "sold by the website" were used quite a bit. Even then, this was a pretty big project. I've got all 439 pages printed out at the shop.
Maybe we can petition for a 10th realm where all the models with no rules live now?Unobtania?
Oh, wait, i used too many real vowels.......Unybtynya.....
Is the hot pot catapult still available for sale then up until yesterday? It's listed in the empire list (admittedly in the counts as appendix) but the rest of the halflings that I thought went away at the same time weren't. It just seems odd that they'd mention one and not the other since both were OOP to my knowledge.
From reading the scrolls, i suspect this was some of the old timers writing them. Jeremy Vetock comes to mind, as he always loved the fun part of WFB, especially giants stuffing enemy generals down trousers. The hot pot was extremely cool, he probably wanted to make sure it wasn't forgotton
Da Butcha wrote: *And for the person who thinks these rules are funny, I would point you to Wulfrik the Wanderer. His 'funny' rules:
Issue your opponent with a challenge of your own – you can be as mocking, rude or insulting as you dare; if your opponent rises to the bait and they change expression, even so much as crack a smile or a glimmer of shock, Wulfrik’s challenge is successful and you can re-roll failed hit rolls for any attacks he makes this phase against enemy Heroes.
So, by the rules, be as 'insulting as you dare'. The person who buys Wulfrik now has a special rule that he may not get to benefit from, or a special rule that may alienate his opponents, and it's official! How "funny"!
Requiring the player to actually issue a challenge might have been funny. Giving them a rules benefit for amusing OR shocking their opponent---not so much.
As I said somewhere else: "Hurl racial slurs at your opponent, if he reacts you win!"
A lot of these rules seem to promote behaviour that'd get you kicked out of a store if played to the hilt.
Games Workshop just missed the boat on a couple key things. One of those things is clear communication to their customers. "I know you've just invested hundreds of dollars in our End Times books and the Fantasy system. Let us tell you why we are making this change, how we will support you in the future, and what our goalsare with the new launch". It's basic customer communication, built on market research...which they don't do (at least not under Tom Kirby.
I love the new model style. I just have to think that spending some time doing research would have helped them make the rules and introduce the game in a much better way. Talk with current players about what they like the most; talk with your target audience about why they don't play....and look for combinations that you can build on. You'd probably find that people loved the fluff, didn't like movement trays, thought the cost of entry was too high, and the system for resolving conflicts was too complicated. If that were the case, it would lead you to a very different game than AoS.
The goofy benefits on some cards are a minor part of this for me. The biggest issue is the lack of understanding that one of the basic needs of their core customers is that games be fair and balanced. I really expected them to copy a Warmachine style model....or even copy over the 40K rules with adaptation for Magic and Unit Model Count (to mimic rank).
One of my friends is calling this Games Workshop's "New Coke". He could be right. Maybe I'll get another shot at the CEO application sooner than I thought!
Were there any rumours of no points or balance system? If not how on earth did GW keep that quiet? Surely some staff members have been disgruntled over this?
As for the new Stormcast Eternal archers and character, I love them. They even look great when mixed in with Empire units such as flagellants and War Altars.
I gotta wonder if so many who want to use aos models for 40k realize the scale is very different.. beyond true scale Marines (which still doesn't make sense since the armor is wildly different) this is a big flop for cross game marketing too
If GW would have just put points or some other clear balancing mechanic in place, I think this release would have gone over much better - and possibly sold better too, though of course that remains to be seen!
Alpharius wrote: If GW would have just put points or some other clear balancing mechanic in place, I think this release would have gone over much better - and possibly sold better too, though of course that remains to be seen!
This:
They treated vets well with the compendium's covering most old models, even a lot of characters that we had assumed would be squatted. But the lack of any points is proving to be a very alienating matter for a lot of WHFB players.
Nagash, Hand of Dust ....you literally hide a dice in one of your hands and your opponent has to guess which one it is in...this is so dumb.....so dumb
Somewhere hidden in these scrolls is rock, paper, scissors....i bet it's there....
All Chaos Wizards know summon everything...and only need a 6 to summon 10 lesser demons!?! That's a below average roll for god sake....can you say blatant money grab. Oh yeah its a skirmish game..yeah right, its a pay to win game now.
Summoning makes sense in the basic game. If i own a block of plaugebearers i can toss it on the battlefield at setup, or i can save it to summon in later. No big deal.
It is only when we think of limiting the amount of troops that summoning seems bat gak crazy.
First rule i put on my "how the feth do i run tournaments" list was 1) No summoning.
Kirasu wrote: I gotta wonder if so many who want to use aos models for 40k realize the scale is very different.. beyond true scale Marines (which still doesn't make sense since the armor is wildly different) this is a big flop for cross game marketing too
The scale is identical.
Those Khorne-cultists fit right in with a group of Dark Vengeance Cultists. Slap a Backpack on the Khorne Warriors to make them Berzerkers, or steal their helmets and bits for CSM/Berzerker kits. The plastic Fleshhound is identical in scale to the finecast ones.
It's just that the Sigmar Marines are huge, but presumably they are meant to be Centurion/near-Dreadnought-huge.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote: So.. reading the Skaven Doombell.. it seems the only way to get thirteen would be to have doctored one of your dice to a seven.. thus the cheater line.
A bit naughty GW.
Making a set of dice for a friend. One has all 6's, the other has all 7's. We will pull them out in the first big megabattle we run, claim victory for the skaven in high squeaky voices. Then nobly offer to play the rest of the game out even though we just won.
Alpharius wrote: If GW would have just put points or some other clear balancing mechanic in place, I think this release would have gone over much better - and possibly sold better too, though of course that remains to be seen!
This:
They treated vets well with the compendium's covering most old models, even a lot of characters that we had assumed would be squatted. But the lack of any points is proving to be a very alienating matter for a lot of WHFB players.
GW gave us everything we need to play AoS and use all our old models for free. This should tell you that they know full well that they can't expect another dime from existing players. They've cut their losses and dropped the entire Fantasy community like the hot, rotten potato it is. Which was the smartest move from GW in the last... I dunno, 20 years? I don't know whether they will succeed in attracting a new player base, but there sure as heck wasn't any point in trying to salvage the old one.
Making a set of dice for a friend. One has all 6's, the other has all 7's. We will pull them out in the first big megabattle we run, claim victory for the skaven in high squeaky voices. Then nobly offer to play the rest of the game out even though we just won.
Went into my local GW today and had a good close look at the models, they are amazing... and have preordered the box for my two eldest boys.. the eldest taking the Sigmar fellas, the middle one Khorne.. seems a good way to provide a game they don't need me to watch over them constantly to help with rule issues ala 40K.
Also nice to note the terrain is plastic, a normal release as far as the Manager knows, not limited.
It took me awhile to figure it out ANY possible reason for GW to do this, but I think I've got it now. This is GW's response to power gaming. Why was Fantasy Battle so expensive? As a lot of people pointed out earlier, you "had" to have big blocks of troops to make them effective. There was a discussion earlier in this thread about how you needed 2 or 3 IOB boxes to have a sword master block of troops that was an effective size. But that isn't true, if you aren't trying to make the most competitive army the sword master's were fine as they were. The biggest problem with 40k right now is that IF you or your opponent want to, they can abuse the heck out of their codex to make a broken army.
There is no power gaming, or broken abuse if there is no balance. It's the biggest hail mary I have ever seen, and I have no idea if it will work or not. Old players have a right to be mad because until GW clarifies some things it's quite a mess, but I think with free rules, don't knock it till you try it.
CatMines wrote: It took me awhile to figure it out ANY possible reason for GW to do this, but I think I've got it now. This is GW's response to power gaming. Why was Fantasy Battle so expensive? As a lot of people pointed out earlier, you "had" to have big blocks of troops to make them effective. There was a discussion earlier in this thread about how you needed 2 or 3 IOB boxes to have a sword master block of troops that was an effective size. But that isn't true, if you aren't trying to make the most competitive army the sword master's were fine as they were. The biggest problem with 40k right now is that IF you or your opponent want to, they can abuse the heck out of their codex to make a broken army.
There is no power gaming, or broken abuse if there is no balance. It's the biggest hail mary I have ever seen, and I have no idea if it will work or not. Old players have a right to be mad because until GW clarifies some things it's quite a mess, but I think with free rules, don't knock it till you try it.
You know that all of that you listed above was due to GW pushing higher model counts as the 'path to victory' though, right?
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Don't forget "Everyone who likes AoS are kids/mentally slowed" (Yes, people have said that), Thraxas.
That's awesome, people are saying that?
Don't get me wrong, i hate the loss of WFB.
But i'm liking Age of Sigmar more and more.
But I'm 54 with a couple of degrees in Mathematics, so instead of 'kid and slowed' can i just try to be 'Immature"?
I can do Immature easily.
I spotted that, a poster used some very discriminatory and offensive language. Thankfully the poster either saw sense and edited it or it was modded for being bang out of order. I do not believe that was aimed at you H.B.M.C, there was a very offensive post.
My take on AOS:
Love the miniatures.
Unsure about the rules, will have to give them a number of games.
Is it the end of WHFB? Possibly, at least as we knew it. But it will take time to see if enough veterans stick around and new blood takes up the game.
I think it is clear that WHFB was not selling like GW wanted it to, so they went off on a massive tangent for the new game.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I didn't say people who like this game are children. I said that the game is for children.
Except Wulfrik, who is for passive-aggressive jackasses.
GW wrote:The Gift of Tongues: At the start of
the combat phase, Wulfrik can issue an
indelicate challenge in his foe’s tongue
if there is an enemy Hero within 3".
Issue your opponent with a challenge
of your own – you can be as mocking,
rude or insulting as you dare; if your
opponent rises to the bait and they change
expression, even so much as crack a smile
or a glimmer of shock, Wulfrik’s challenge
is successful and you can re-roll failed hit
rolls for any attacks he makes this phase
against enemy Heroes.
Any success for AOS = 40k getting the same treatment.
It's definitely not that simple.
I think GW already has plans in the pipeline to Sigmar 40K. I also do not believe there will be anything to stop them from Sigmarring 40K short of a dismal failure for AoS.
Yep, it's going to happen.
Last night as i was grooming my mustache and talking to Konrad, Sigmar came to me and let me in on the next step GW will be taking:
-The Adeptus Mechanicus mess with the wrong ancient technology and break time
-Warhammer 30k invades Warhammer 40k -Horus comes back and kills both the Emperors
-Necrons and Blood Angels interbreed. Not really part of the main story, but GW will leak the sex tape.
-Orks use a Super Traktor Beam to crash every planet in the Humieverse together.
-We get a 14 book long set of Slipcased Hardcovers for "Da Ender Times" that blows up the 40k universe.
Finally, when 30-40k is dead, all existing models get Warscrolls for Age of sigmar. Sigmar of course gets all the space marines, but they have to paint their armor gold. Half the chapters rebel and join chaos to keep their original colors. Half the traitor legions join Sigmar so they can get spiffy gold paint. The space wolves go off and marry into the Ogors since they have similar cultures.
So I'm calm, collected, friendly and generally a great opponent. Then Wulfrik gets within 3" of an enemy and I suddenly scream "Eat gak and die witch flaps!", and, because my opponent is obviously taken aback, I get re-rolls?
I could very easily see them following the Hordes/Warmachine model, and turning 40k into a nearly-identical twin of AoS so that you can play one against the other, or include models from both games in your army...
Played some smaller games down at my local today, and I have to say I am quite surprised, its not all bad, and it has alot of potential, but really, really needs some points costs in there, with points costs and house rules, it would be pretty decent; not on par with many of the other wargames out there, but decent.
The sudden death victories are awful though, easily abusable, and ought to just be ignored. The silly 'jump up and down and scream' rules should go, and things like being behind cover should give you the save modifier, etc, but the general mechanics to the game itself seem tolerable.
With a 'high caliber' company like GW, we shouldn't have to do any of this, and if this style transfers to 40k, then, well, I don't know if I will ever be able to touch another GW model.
I feel for the fantasy players, having everything snatched away like this, but if you aren't too bitter, try it, it's kinda entertaining in a quirky way, and has potential to be good, balance is the key issue atm.
Albino Squirrel wrote: This notion some people have (that something without point values can't be considered a game) is absurd. There are plenty of very good miniature games that don't have point values...
A game where every model is different stat wise, ruleswise and model count wise needs points. This game has shallow history behind it so using scenarios is impossible.
History games and more realistic games can indeed be without points because variations among troops is usually minimal.
In fantasy it is kind of important to know how many goblins a stegadon is roughly worth. Because without detailed back story information or rules telling us we have no real idea. The only way you can get a balanced game is by playing games to find out how units compare and then getting an idea this way. But have fun doing that with hundreds if unit types.
Name a wargame that has more than 50 unit types with drastically different rules and does not have a balancing system? You will not find one easily that is for sure and there is a reason for that.
GW was just being lazy and thought they would make anybody willing to play this play test it themselves.
Well, I don't dispute that THIS game should have point values. Not because the stats are very different. You have to hit, to wound, and armor save which are all between 3+ and 6+. Only four different possible values which scale linearly. Then you have number of attacks and number of wounds which can vary a lot, and movement rate. The thing that makes it seem pretty hard to me to come up with a good scenario and forces is all the special abilities and how they can stack.
Anyway, my issue was with people saying that the definition of being a game requires point values. It doesn't. Black Powder and Hail Caesar are great games without points and with a wide variety of troop capabilities. Same with Tomorrow's War. And it isn't too hard to come up with good scenarios for those games.
Albino Squirrel wrote: And it isn't too hard to come up with good scenarios for those games.
So rather than having a points system, you have a scenario system which places limits (artificial or otherwise) on the units both players can take. In other words, the same effect via a different method. You're still adding structure/limits where there currently are none. You do see that, don't you?
OR, just have a points system, which covers all the bases and doesn't require you to write specific scenarios.
CatMines wrote: It took me awhile to figure it out ANY possible reason for GW to do this, but I think I've got it now. This is GW's response to power gaming. Why was Fantasy Battle so expensive? As a lot of people pointed out earlier, you "had" to have big blocks of troops to make them effective. There was a discussion earlier in this thread about how you needed 2 or 3 IOB boxes to have a sword master block of troops that was an effective size. But that isn't true, if you aren't trying to make the most competitive army the sword master's were fine as they were. The biggest problem with 40k right now is that IF you or your opponent want to, they can abuse the heck out of their codex to make a broken army.
There is no power gaming, or broken abuse if there is no balance. It's the biggest hail mary I have ever seen, and I have no idea if it will work or not. Old players have a right to be mad because until GW clarifies some things it's quite a mess, but I think with free rules, don't knock it till you try it.
You know that all of that you listed above was due to GW pushing higher model counts as the 'path to victory' though, right?
I guess your right about that, and even the new rules still encourage larger unit sizes (I've seen a couple units that have bonuses at 30+). It's still a step in... a direction. Maybe not the right one. I just can't imagine any other reason for GW to do this.
