I thought it would be better to have a tactics thread where the OP wasn't entirely self promotion to a defunct website (Instead I have added a small self promotion of an Aeldari Discord server at the end ). Now we have some new psychic powers and custom Craftworlds in Psychic Awakening it seems appropriate to start a new thread which I will try to update the OP of on a regular basis as I always keep up to date on Craftworld news.
Instead of unit analysis I thought it would be useful to list various locations of datasheets and rules for Craftworlds in the OP.
Craftworld Traits: Quick breakdown/categorisation of which traits effect what, unless stated in brackets this effects any unit with the <Craftworlds> keyword all the time:
Spoiler:
If an ability is Bold then you may only select that ability.
If an ability has a colour then it is an original Craftworld that may have more than one ability and also allows for a unique Craftworld specific relic, unique Craftworld specific Stratagems and some named Characters may already be assigned one of these Craftworlds as their keyword.
If a word is in CAPS it is referring to that specific keyword found on a units datasheet.
Melee Children of Khaine (Only ASPECT WARRIOR)
Hunters of Ancient Relics (Within 3" of Objective marker)
Savage Blades (When charged, has charged or performed heroic intervention)
Vengeful Blades (Only against CHAOS)
Shooting Saim-Hann (Only BIKER)
Biel-Tan (Only Shuriken weapons)
Hail of Doom (Enemy within 12") (Only Shuriken weapons)
Superior Shurikens (Only Shuriken weapons)
Shooting & Melee Expert Crafters
Martial Citizenry (Only GUARDIAN)
Masterful Shots
Mobile Fighters (On turn it Disembarked transport)
Wrath of the Dead (Only WRAITH CONSTRUCT)
Psychic Children of Prophecy
Movement including Charging movement Saim-Hann Children of the Open Skies (Only FLY)
Headstrong
Strike and Fade (Better in 9th due to changes to FLY keyword)
Saving throws/Savings wounds Alaitoc (Only when Enemy is over 12" away)
Iyanden (Only units with damage chart)
Ulthwe Diviners of Fate
Masters of Concealment (Only when Enemy is over 12" away)
Students of Vaul (Only VEHICLE)
Warding Runes (Only against Mortal Wounds)
Totally agree that the old thread isn't much help anymore and a fresh thread might help us in this SM world.
I've got a wraith host that I'm trying to find a way to work with the new traits. Wrath of the dead is a given but I'm not sure for the second one. Ignore cover is my go to but I'm not convinced as AP isn't a problem for this army. Also should I make it an actual wraith host and if so what detachment?
I've got a vanguard of:
spirit seer,
5 x d-scythes,
5 x W-cannon,
5 x Axes,
1 Wave Serpent: 3x shuriken's, VE,
And a Supreme command of:
1 Wraith seer: D-cannon,
1 spirit seer,
1 Warlock,
Wraith Knight: 2 x HWC, 2 x star cannons,
I can add another WS and a Farseer, 2 warlocks and an Auarch If needed.
kryczek wrote: Totally agree that the old thread isn't much help anymore and a fresh thread might help us in this SM world.
I've got a wraith host that I'm trying to find a way to work with the new traits. Wrath of the dead is a given but I'm not sure for the second one. Ignore cover is my go to but I'm not convinced as AP isn't a problem for this army. Also should I make it an actual wraith host and if so what detachment?
I've got a vanguard of:
spirit seer,
5 x d-scythes,
5 x W-cannon,
5 x Axes,
1 Wave Serpent: 3x shuriken's, VE,
And a Supreme command of:
1 Wraith seer: D-cannon,
1 spirit seer,
1 Warlock,
Wraith Knight: 2 x HWC, 2 x star cannons,
I can add another WS and a Farseer, 2 warlocks and an Auarch If needed.
Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated.
I'm having quite a bit of fun playing Wraithblades with Axe+Boards using Wrath of the dead + headstrong. Granted i'm not quite all-in on the wraith idea.
Going from your list i would suggest making your supreme command detachment Ynnari. You'd be able to pop a 5++ on your wraithknight with Shield of Ynnead.
Also, wraithseers with The lost shroud are super tanky HQs that can still buff your non-Ynnari wraiths since the spells aren't <craftworld> bound.
I play at 1750 and this is a list i've had a lot of fun with :
Spoiler:
Battalion : Wrath of the dead + Headstrong
Spiritseer
Warlock skyrunner
3x dire avengers
10x wraithblades with shield
1 hemlock
Supreme command : Ynnari
The yncarne
Wraithseer with D-cannon
Yvraine
In regards to Autarchs are they good enough competitively or is it just better to have another seer? A warlord (for regaining CP) Autarch Skyrunner with Laser Lance and the Shimmerplume seems a solid choice?
Cheers @VladimirHerzog I've been running quickened and protected wraith axes for a while and they hit like a train with a psytronome if theyre Iyanden. But I only have 5.
I haven't even looked at Ynnari to be honest. With this and vigilus I've got enough to play with just now. Also I don't have any of the 3. I like the list though.
@korlandril I've tried and tried with autarchs to no real joy. With my group finally outlawing index option's across the board I don't see any reason to take them outside of real special circumstances.
All in on Wraiths sounds and looks nice, but is tactically a bad idea. Skew lists stand and fall on their matchups, and if you come across a list that handles wraiths well, you're done for. They're quite common too, right?
I do think there's something to be said for a chunk of wraith units in a list, and I do think the new craftworld traits help them - but I'd take expert crafters every time, then either ignore or give cover depending on your priorities. Wraith lords kept cheap with one weapon to maximise rerolls, same for Wraithseers, and a wraith bomb backed up by Wraithseer enliven, Spiritseer invuln swap and ghoststep make a very tanky brick to throw though your opponent's window that can't really fail its charge.
Expert Crafters leans heaviily into MSU, and Wraith units can fit that profile, whilst also allowing things like vibro cannons, war walkers, CHEs, to profit.
kryczek wrote: I've tried and tried with autarchs to no real joy. With my group finally outlawing index option's across the board I don't see any reason to take them outside of real special circumstances.
Why would they outlaw index option's? That's not right we have models with this equipment I'm sure index rules are still valid everywhere else...
Aside from weapon options isn't the regen CP ability is worth including an Autarch? I've seen lists that make use of the harlequin warlord trait that gets you CP from your opponent using CP is this trait that much better than the Autarch?
grouchoben wrote: All in on Wraiths sounds and looks nice, but is tactically a bad idea. Skew lists stand and fall on their matchups, and if you come across a list that handles wraiths well, you're done for. They're quite common too, right?
I do think there's something to be said for a chunk of wraith units in a list, and I do think the new craftworld traits help them - but I'd take expert crafters every time, then either ignore or give cover depending on your priorities. Wraith lords kept cheap with one weapon to maximise rerolls, same for Wraithseers, and a wraith bomb backed up by Wraithseer enliven, Spiritseer invuln swap and ghoststep make a very tanky brick to throw though your opponent's window that can't really fail its charge.
Expert Crafters leans heaviily into MSU, and Wraith units can fit that profile, whilst also allowing things like vibro cannons, war walkers, CHEs, to profit.
Yeah, small wraiths are super fun to paly but not top tier. To function they basically need a supreme command of warlocks/spiritseer to buff them up as much as possible. I think expert crafters + masters of concealment is better on long range, backfield support. Wraithlords seem perfect for it. I quite like wrath of the dead because of how well it synergizes with our close-range wraiths + hemlock where the cover wont really apply since the enemy will easily get into 12" from them. Masters of concealement is good if you go second and you play on maps with little terrain so you can protect your wraiths without needing to stick them all in a ruin.
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kryczek wrote: Cheers @VladimirHerzog I've been running quickened and protected wraith axes for a while and they hit like a train with a psytronome if theyre Iyanden. But I only have 5.
I haven't even looked at Ynnari to be honest. With this and vigilus I've got enough to play with just now. Also I don't have any of the 3. I like the list though.
@korlandril I've tried and tried with autarchs to no real joy. With my group finally outlawing index option's across the board I don't see any reason to take them outside of real special circumstances.
The ynnari "chapter tactic" is pretty much garbage since they got updated. its all about the warlord traits, relics and Yncarne/Yvraine.
An ynnari wraithseer is super hard to take down because it has :
T8
12W
3+
5++
5+++
Halve damage
(either heal 1 per battle round or get 1 reroll of hit/wound per battle round + regen Cps on 5+)
And he can dish out quite a bit of damage in close combat
And you can make him a bit more expensive and give him the big D-cannon to melt tanks through walls.
Its a super fun model to play. Mine managed to tank 2 turns of admech shooting + melee before going down to weight of fire. (granted my harlequins and wraiths maanged to stop quite a bit of shooting to help him out).
Right now, the Yncarne + Wraithseer are my favorite models in 40k.
In regards to Autarchs are they good enough competitively or is it just better to have another seer? A warlord (for regaining CP) Autarch Skyrunner with Laser Lance and the Shimmerplume seems a solid choice?
usually the Autarch is geared with a Banshee Mask, which given how silly overwatch has got is almost a requirement. think its omission from the Codex was a mouse slip whilst copy/pasting
Turnip Jedi wrote: ... think its omission from the Codex was a mouse slip whilst copy/pasting
I wish that were the case, but if you look at the models available, none come with a banshee mask. We've only got Yriel (Autarch on foot w. star glaive), Autarch with wings, fusion pistol, mandiblasters and power sword and the Skyrunner Autarch with EITHER laser lance or fusion gun.
The lack of options in the Codex is very clearly intentional based on the options just those 3 kits have.
But hopefully those extra options remain available even after Index stuff becomes "Legends" as the viability of a Skyrunner Autarch WITHOUT Banshee mask drops pretty starkly, IMO
Turnip Jedi wrote: ... think its omission from the Codex was a mouse slip whilst copy/pasting
I wish that were the case, but if you look at the models available, none come with a banshee mask. We've only got Yriel (Autarch on foot w. star glaive), Autarch with wings, fusion pistol, mandiblasters and power sword and the Skyrunner Autarch with EITHER laser lance or fusion gun.
The lack of options in the Codex is very clearly intentional based on the options just those 3 kits have.
But hopefully those extra options remain available even after Index stuff becomes "Legends" as the viability of a Skyrunner Autarch WITHOUT Banshee mask drops pretty starkly, IMO
-
well there is that too (of course I foolishly looked at all the models available and stuck a Scourge head (i think) on mine, actual Banshee heads being a right pita to remove)
Hopefully Legends only affects rules with no models (warboss on bike) but lets us use wargear that aren't in the codex? Like banshee mask autarch or blaster archon
Turnip Jedi wrote: ..of course I foolishly looked at all the models available and stuck a Scourge head (i think) on mine, actual Banshee heads being a right pita to remove)
Turnip Jedi wrote: ..of course I foolishly looked at all the models available and stuck a Scourge head (i think) on mine, actual Banshee heads being a right pita to remove)
Mine too!
I'm waiting for Legends to drop so i know what loadout will be worth kitbashing for my autarch. Was it announced if it was going to be part of CA 2019, or a standalone release?
In regards to Autarchs are they good enough competitively or is it just better to have another seer? A warlord (for regaining CP) Autarch Skyrunner with Laser Lance and the Shimmerplume seems a solid choice?
That is how I run my Autarch and he is pretty solid. He can buff a number of units while Guide is only one unit per turn. CP regen is a handy bonus and with a Laser Lance, he makes a decent countercharge unit. Shimmerplume helps keep him alive a bit longer if you do need to commit him. He is not a powerhouse unit but he is definitely solid.
Having said that, I don't know if there will be so much call for one if you take Expert Crafters. With built-in rerolls, you don't need him so much, particularly if you are running MSU. I plan to experiment with this and a couple of extra Warlocks with Runes of Fortune instead.
Having said that, I don't know if there will be so much call for one if you take Expert Crafters. With built-in rerolls, you don't need him so much, particularly if you are running MSU. I plan to experiment with this and a couple of extra Warlocks with Runes of Fortune instead.
He's still solid gold as a harasser and anti parking lot unit.
I still like the Autarchs rerolls when using Expert Crafters. It means you are rerolling all 1s and one 2 for a unit in the aura which, depending on unit size, is pretty much as good as Guide.
Also, with MSU Expert Crafters, the other HQ options become less appealing. Protect, Conceal, and Quicken have a lot less impact on MSU units so Jinx is the only Runes of Battle power you really need. The same goes for Farseers using Guide and Fortune, you only really want Doom, plus Executioner is decent.
The Autarch has always been geared towards buffing multiple units rather than one big one like the Psykers, so fits MSU better. I am concerned about possibly losing the banshee mask and Melta/Reaper off the Skyrunner though (especially after I sawed a metal Banshee Exarch in half to make mine!).
Were you working on a new thread? You could post what you had and get it copied into the OP.
I already messaged him to say he could send me anything and I'd add to the OP. I'm happy to add anything in OP that is beneficial if someone wants to provide it.
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Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I still like the Autarchs rerolls when using Expert Crafters. It means you are rerolling all 1s and one 2 for a unit in the aura which, depending on unit size, is pretty much as good as Guide.
Also, with MSU Expert Crafters, the other HQ options become less appealing. Protect, Conceal, and Quicken have a lot less impact on MSU units so Jinx is the only Runes of Battle power you really need. The same goes for Farseers using Guide and Fortune, you only really want Doom, plus Executioner is decent.
The Autarch has always been geared towards buffing multiple units rather than one big one like the Psykers, so fits MSU better. I am concerned about possibly losing the banshee mask and Melta/Reaper off the Skyrunner though (especially after I sawed a metal Banshee Exarch in half to make mine!)m
I agree, I don't think Expert Crafters makes Autarch not worth taking, it just stacks nicely with the Autarchs rerolls. Surely they'll release MPPK Autarch soon with all options at some point...
Expert Crafters MSU makes defensive psychic stuff less efficient but offensively there is a great many things that can be taken instead. A lot of the debuffs from Runes of Battle and Runes of Fate can really stack up to unpick opponents units. There is so much utility there.
I feel that since experts crafter, farseers are less necessary than warlocks/spiritseers. The runes of battle just offer a wider variation of options compared to runes of fate when all your units already get rerolls.
I played autarch on foot with reaper cannon babysitting 3x3 MSU reaper squads. With expert crafters it made the entire detatchement much more reliable! No need for guide or doom and focus fire on a single thing.
I don't play the bike variant but if he looses his banshee mask/reaper options I don't think I will run him if he's the same points. He'd need a drastic decrease/buff.. The relics/traits are very meh and a cheap warlock/SS with a trait would achieve the same thing with more utility for cheaper IMO. I also think we wont see much of autarchs if they get stripped of their options.
The codex entries are very very luck lustre.. This is spit balling and wish listing but if he could pick an exarch power on top of a WL trait, I think he could turn into a nifty beat stick. I would probably look at Maugan ra/asurmen or AOK instead to run them up the board with big blobs of stormies/DA. Unfortunately everything is hella expansive.
VladimirHerzog wrote: I feel that since experts crafter, farseers are less necessary than warlocks/spiritseers. The runes of battle just offer a wider variation of options compared to runes of fate when all your units already get rerolls.
maybe but a MW power and a buff power per turn and far more reliable casts and deny still has a place
I think you are right, I feel there isn't as strong need for guide/doom anymore. Those two really lend themselves to max blobs/focus firing on single target.
Its certainly not a big deal if either guide or doom fails if you're running MSU expert crafters. Its opened up the seers to other spells like mind war/fortune/smite executioner.
Argive wrote: I think you are right, I feel there isn't as strong need for guide/doom anymore. Those two really lend themselves to max blobs/focus firing on single target.
Its certainly not a big deal if either guide or doom fails if you're running MSU expert crafters. Its opened up the seers to other spells like mind war/fotune/smite executioner.
I think DOOM is always helpful if you're running pure craftworld, but have been running sans Guide for a long time. the 3x3 reapers and autarch with launcher have done work in my games, and now they're even better. Hopefully they will get a post-ynnari points adjustment.
I am a big fan of the MSU and Expert Crafters, though it is debatable if this list is truly MSU. It does synergize with Expert Crafters and Masters of Concealment.
This kind of list does change the Farseer usage. The model is now MW delivery. Between the Farseer and Yvraine, they average 8 MW per psychic phase. Them, add in two of the Hemlocks using Smite as well. The CP will most likely be used for Feigned Retreat and to be able to cast a third psychic power.
The list is exceptionally small and I tweaked it from running a small battalion to running the Outrider with Hornets. I found my DA not overly useful and that this build front loads an additional 14 shots. With the Hornet speed and range, I can still sit on objectives and help block out my backfield (ITC missions). The list has done well with Old School, and can get Gangbusters, or the secondaries netting points for causing wounds to high wound, high power level units. Recon is final secondary I am finding easy to score as well.
I have not been able to play against the new Marines outside of Ultramarines, so I anticipate those lists to be exceptionally difficult. The low model count also ensures I can get through each game within time (from what I can control).
Because of Expert Crafters and Doom, I feel comfortable with the low CP count.
Overall, I'd be happy with a 3-2 record. I don't get to play nearly as much as I'd like to, so I am injecting a bit of reality.
Argive wrote: Its certainly not a big deal if either guide or doom fails if you're running MSU expert crafters.
Maybe, but Doom is still invaluable for non-MSU units. And since 100% MSU armies are not the best (you need some unit with substance), I still think Farseers are needed.
And if you are going the Warlock route, a Farseer is needed for the Seer Council strat.
Otoh, I'm loving the synergy of Autarch with Expert Crafters. Reroll all 1s to hit, plus an extra non-1 reroll is very close to having Guide on just about every unit. Freeing my Farseer up to cast Fortune on a unit of Spears or a WK
Op in Phoenix Rising there's also rules for custom Exarch powers, you might wanna add that for completions sake.
Also, should we build towards a unit evaluation?
Argive wrote: Its certainly not a big deal if either guide or doom fails if you're running MSU expert crafters.
Maybe, but Doom is still invaluable for non-MSU units. And since 100% MSU armies are not the best (you need some unit with substance), I still think Farseers are needed.
And if you are going the Warlock route, a Farseer is needed for the Seer Council strat.
Otoh, I'm loving the synergy of Autarch with Expert Crafters. Reroll all 1s to hit, plus an extra non-1 reroll is very close to having Guide on just about every unit. Freeing my Farseer up to cast Fortune on a unit of Spears or a WK
-
Dont get me wrong doom is still super valuable but its no longer so clutch that it makes or brrakes the shooting/psychic phase imo. You still wana cast it/bring it but it doesnt cripple you if you fail so much.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: Op in Phoenix Rising there's also rules for custom Exarch powers, you might wanna add that for completions sake.
Also, should we build towards a unit evaluation?
Thanks I updated, I'm happy to build towards unit evaluation for sure.
Could do a tier system as well, tier 1 most competitive, tier 2 average, tier 3 not competitive?
I'm personally not a huge fan of tier systems, with Eldar even more so, as so much depends on psychic phase and synergies and there's a lot of divergent opinions. I personally for example rate the guardian bomb really highly, others can't make it work. Is it tier 1 or garbage?
I'll have a write down tomorrow afternoon on the units i feel comfortable rating, can't be bothered to do that on a phone though
A bit of a fun experimental list, making use of a deathstar of serpents surrounding asurman waiting to get popped to lose an avenger or two to pop the exarch power for +1 to hit and wound.
The custom traits allow the avengers to make marines make 4+ saves even in cover.
Asurman makes the avengers tougher to take out and gives a bit of counter charge.
The psykers do what they do, making all that shuriken fire more efficient.
I think relying on Avenging Strikes is not a very good idea. The chances you only lose one or two Dire Avengers is very low, the chances you lose most if it not all are more likely so you have a very under strength unit benefiting from the power. A better power might be Bladestorm as losing the 4++ Exarch power is fine in this case with Asurmen buff.
Korlandril wrote: Yeah I understand. I would prefer a short write up or even bullet points for each unit then?
If you're going to do this, you should make the focus be competitively minded. It is a tactics thread after all.
I think it’s good to have input on the competitive scene, but it’s also good to take a more general look at units when doing reviews. Competitive play tends more towards binary calls. A unit is either hot or not. And some things like ITC rules and missions can VASTY change which one it is. There is also the meta issue; what you expect to face at a tournament is not necessarily the same thing you will find down at your FLGS.
So someone who’s just getting into the game and is looking for advice on how to put the units together from their Start Collecting box to play at the shop might need a different answer than someone doing tournament prep. A well-rounded review will also stand up better over time. If you write a competitive review when the meta is knight lists screened with guardsmen, you might have different view on units then when Iron Hand marine lists are taking top tables (Just random examples, replace with what the FotM is).
Lots of people play this game in lots of different ways. While those who take the time to come here and read tactics tend to be those who are looking to up their game, some are just looking to get started.
Dire Avengers A cheap Troop choice when taken as a 5-man squad while still with some good capability. 5+ overwatch, 4+ save. Always take an Exarch for a free extra wound.
Exarch Powers:
Tier 1:
Battle Fortune: Good power for tanking AP shots on the Exarch, makes the squad overall tougher overall
Bladestorm: As it benefits the whole squad the strongest offensive power available
Shredding Fire: Most ideal for MSU Dire Avengers with Exarch with dual ASC
Tier 2:
Defend: Only benefits the unit when being attacked in melee
Avenging Strikes: Though the benefits are very nice for this power they only turn on after losing at least one model
Martial Adapt: Nice benefits for the Exarch but outshone by other powers
Tier 3:
Stand Firm: OK power but not as good as others listed
Cpt. Icanus wrote: I'm personally not a huge fan of tier systems, with Eldar even more so, as so much depends on psychic phase and synergies and there's a lot of divergent opinions. I personally for example rate the guardian bomb really highly, others can't make it work. Is it tier 1 or garbage? I'll have a write down tomorrow afternoon on the units i feel comfortable rating, can't be bothered to do that on a phone though
Autarch Warlock Guardians/Rangers Fire prism/Night spinner War walkers Dire Avengers Swooping hawks Scorpions Wraith guard/ Wraith baldes
Tier 3:
Storm Guardians AOK Phoenix Lords (all of them rlly..) Support weapons Falcons Vypers Banshees/Fire Dragon Wraithlords
Tier 4.
Wraith Knight
Very simplistic but Essentially went by grading my tiers by: Efficiency, duality, utility.
I think this approximation is close but any one of T2/T3 could be interchangeable imo depending if you build for it. Essentially if your army compromises of 80% Tier 1 units and then some T2 units you cant go wrong.
I tried going by popular opinion rather then my own bias for the most part. For example I really rate Support weapons and think they are strong Tier 2 pick even before master crafters.
See this is the thing. Expert crafter vibro cannons are definitely not down in tier 3 anymore. I think that's objectively the case - but they do drop right off in other craftworlds.
Similarly, I never leave home without 2 squads of msu storm guardians with 2 fusion in each squad. With crafters they put out very reliable damage, and aren't ashamed to just point them both at intercessors or the like and delete 2. 76pts, a great price imo, if they have a serpent to hide in. That's more subjective though, I get people relegating them to tier 3. But 2 for me no doubt.
grouchoben wrote: See this is the thing. Expert crafter vibro cannons are definitely not down in tier 3 anymore. I think that's objectively the case - but they do drop right off in other craftworlds.
Similarly, I never leave home without 2 squads of msu storm guardians with 2 fusion in each squad. With crafters they put out very reliable damage, and aren't ashamed to just point them both at intercessors or the like and delete 2. 76pts, a great price imo, if they have a serpent to hide in. That's more subjective though, I get people relegating them to tier 3. But 2 for me no doubt.
I agree for the most part. But most people think stormies are bottom tier so I went by popular consensus.
I want to run a foot dar list with a lot of storm guardians 2x20 -with 2 fusion a pop and an AOK/asurmen plus 3x10 DAs to control the middle of the board whilst using expert crafter spearheads to zone out and screen the rest of the battle field. I just am a slow ass modeller and painter so that day is some times away lol. Also Im always drawn to bottom tier stuff to make it work and surprise my enemies. Nobody at my FLGC expected vibro cannons..
Edit: I noticed I didn't include the WK in the list.. quite frankly totally forgot it exists its so inefficient... He can have a tier all to himself Updated.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: I'm personally not a huge fan of tier systems, with Eldar even more so, as so much depends on psychic phase and synergies and there's a lot of divergent opinions. I personally for example rate the guardian bomb really highly, others can't make it work. Is it tier 1 or garbage?
I'll have a write down tomorrow afternoon on the units i feel comfortable rating, can't be bothered to do that on a phone though
Autarch
Warlock
Guardians/Rangers
Fire prism/Night spinner
War walkers
Dire Avengers
Swooping hawks
Scorpions
Wraith guard/ Wraith baldes
Tier 3:
Storm Guardians
AOK
Phoenix Lords (all of them rlly..)
Support weapons
Falcons
Vypers
Banshees/Fire Dragon
Wraithlords
Tier 4.
Wraith Knight
Very simplistic but Essentially went by grading my tiers by: Efficiency, duality, utility.
I think this approximation is close but any one of T2/T3 could be interchangeable imo depending if you build for it.
Essentially if your army compromises of 80% Tier 1 units and then some T2 units you cant go wrong.
I tried going by popular opinion rather then my own bias for the most part. For example I really rate Support weapons and think they are strong Tier 2 pick even before master crafters.
I'd put naked wraithlords at tier 2 for being dirt cheap (85pt) T8 bodies that provide board control while being inefficient for your opponent to remove. I'd also put the scorpion superheavy grav-tank at tier 2 as it demolishes just about any list that's not horde.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: I'm personally not a huge fan of tier systems, with Eldar even more so, as so much depends on psychic phase and synergies and there's a lot of divergent opinions. I personally for example rate the guardian bomb really highly, others can't make it work. Is it tier 1 or garbage? I'll have a write down tomorrow afternoon on the units i feel comfortable rating, can't be bothered to do that on a phone though
Autarch Warlock Guardians/Rangers Fire prism/Night spinner War walkers Dire Avengers Swooping hawks Scorpions Wraith guard/ Wraith baldes
Tier 3:
Storm Guardians AOK Phoenix Lords (all of them rlly..) Support weapons Falcons Vypers Banshees/Fire Dragon Wraithlords
Tier 4.
Wraith Knight
Very simplistic but Essentially went by grading my tiers by: Efficiency, duality, utility.
I think this approximation is close but any one of T2/T3 could be interchangeable imo depending if you build for it. Essentially if your army compromises of 80% Tier 1 units and then some T2 units you cant go wrong.
I tried going by popular opinion rather then my own bias for the most part. For example I really rate Support weapons and think they are strong Tier 2 pick even before master crafters.
I'd put naked wraithlords at tier 2 for being dirt cheap (85pt) T8 bodies that provide board control while being inefficient for your opponent to remove. I'd also put the scorpion superheavy grav-tank at tier 2 as it demolishes just about any list that's not horde.
I think generally speaking if we're looking at a ruthless min maxing where our concern is Efficiency, duality, utility one would pick T2 units over a WL if the rest of the roster was filled by T1 units. Or more to the point the Wraith seer being a defacto better WL.. Hence it living in T3. There are just better options like walkers/night spinners. (I think he should be T2 also tbh… I drop additional 10-20 points on mine with glaives and SC for extra potency and its probably one of my favourite kits..)
I have omitted all of the FW options and focused n codex entries.. I'd be happy to add them. However with my limited experience of only using wraithseers and spectres(Both of which which I rate as T2 units) I can only go by theory hammer paper exercise so I feel like I should refrain judgement.. Also id need to give the index xenos imperial armour another glance as I'm very rusty on the units.
CAVEAT: CA 2019 points adjustment pre orders are a week out so this may well impact the choices in terms of efficiency.
That shows my issues with tier lists. It's just not that simple. I'd never rate Reapers as T1 anymore outside MSU expert crafters.
I guess everyone has a nit pick about every other person's list (and that is m8stly a good thing!).
Tier lists aren't a good assessment of how units or an army works.
I respect that it can be easy to list things in tiers and I also respect that everyone has different ways they like to play the game, but the best way to assess how good a unit is, is based on whether they see play in the competitive scene or not. It's not a simple "hot or not", you can see how much a certain unit appears in competitive lists because there are always "techs" that make appearances in some lists.
Once you get the competitive units out of the way, you can discuss the potential of units that are semi-competitive and so on.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Tier lists aren't a good assessment of how units or an army works.
I respect that it can be easy to list things in tiers and I also respect that everyone has different ways they like to play the game, but the best way to assess how good a unit is, is based on whether they see play in the competitive scene or not. It's not a simple "hot or not", you can see how much a certain unit appears in competitive lists because there are always "techs" that make appearances in some lists.
Once you get the competitive units out of the way, you can discuss the potential of units that are semi-competitive and so on.
But what you are suggesting here is tier lists? If we categorise by competitive, semi-competitive, not competitive that's the tier list in this case
That's why I'm thinking an individual unit analysis on the most competitive way to run a unit like my Dire Avenger example would be better?
Tyranid Horde wrote: Tier lists aren't a good assessment of how units or an army works.
I respect that it can be easy to list things in tiers and I also respect that everyone has different ways they like to play the game, but the best way to assess how good a unit is, is based on whether they see play in the competitive scene or not. It's not a simple "hot or not", you can see how much a certain unit appears in competitive lists because there are always "techs" that make appearances in some lists.
Once you get the competitive units out of the way, you can discuss the potential of units that are semi-competitive and so on.
But isn't that a Tier List in itself?
Units that see competetive play Units that get teched in Units that don't see comp play Units that are considered trash
Not every Tier List has to be 100% accurate, but I still think that such a list would help newcommers get a general idea on which unit is fieldable in what environment
Edit: Meh, Korlandil beat me to it Sneaky Striking scorpion is obiously faster than a Tough-as-Nails Ork boy
Of course I am suggesting a tier list, and I didn't state otherwise. Tier lists are not a good assessment of how units or an army work. Tier lists are fundamentally based on the competitive meta and the listing should reflect that rather than stating something is Tier 1, 2, 45, etc.
Your way is fine to an extent (korlandril), but has absolutely no reasoning as to why you've tiered them this way. Stating what something does or saying not as good as X isn't sound reasoning.
Edit: In addition, you'd ideally want to pair individual unit analysis with maths/stats and their synergies with other units, and differentiate between what is tier 1 for a Crimson Hunter and what is tier 1 for a Dire Avenger.
Dire Avengers A cheap Troop choice when taken as a 5-man squad while still with some good capability. 5+ overwatch, 4+ save. Always take an Exarch for a free extra wound.
I don't think there needs to be a description of the units rules, or for every power/ability to be covered. How about something like:
Unit: Dire Avengers
Tournament stats: (I'm not sure what form these actually take!)
Ways to play them: (people post how they run the unit, and all the ideas are listed) eg...
I run them as 58pts for a 5 man unit with an Exarch with 2x Catapults, and the Shredding Fire Exarch power. This configuration is cheap to fill out a battalion. It's fast with good firepower for it's cost, but isn't very durable, so I like to run them in Wave Serpents.
I'm a mad cat who likes to run a full unit of 10 with the Avenging Strikes Exarch power in a Wave Serpent. The plan is for my Serpent to get blown to bits, taking an Avenger or two with it, so that the squad gets +1 to hit and wound!
Slight tweak to the list (ITC format). I got in a few more games with this list (dealing with resin quality of FW minis halted the progress of my additional 2 Hornets). Played against Admech, Ultramarines, and Iron Hands. Right now, the list demonstrated resiliency and offensive firepower to take on all but the Iron Hands. The exact same Centurion unit in an Ultramarine vs Iron Hand army was shocking. The Iron Hands were more resilient. Combined with 3 Leviathan Dreadnoughts, I felt like I was playing a completely different game. A single Leviathan one shots a Wave Serpent or flier once in range. I effectively had only one turn avoiding range (turn 1).
Iron Hands aside, I felt confident against the other armies. I still have not faced the other new Marine supplements, so that is definitely a challenge.
Lessons learned is the army can hit quite hard in turns one and two, and can wrack points quickly. Against the Ultramarines, I earned 10 points to my opponent's 1 on turn one and we called the game. I think playing aggressively to one flank/center has worked very well as opposed to attacking a wide front. Using a Wave Serpent to assault a very shooty unit who can't fall back and shoot is an important option (Admech Robots). Also of note is the mortal wounds two psykers can put out. In one phase, I got very good rolls and put out 14 MW from Yvraine and the Farseer. The Farseer, effectively has two rerolls in the psychic phase (warlord trait) and sometimes can fish for the super smite. Time the Executioner for when a unit has a model with one or two wounds remaining in order to get the additional d3 mortal wounds. With all the fast moving units, it is not difficult to ensure the characters are not the closest target. Finally, the Nightspinners did work very well for their points.
Expert Crafters is an excellent trait and Masters of Concealment played well over multiple occasions, although there were units who ignored cover, so not quite as useful, but still good.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Teir lists are a bit subjective, if there are stats available that reflect a units use in competitive games, then include that in the unit review.
Dire Avengers A cheap Troop choice when taken as a 5-man squad while still with some good capability. 5+ overwatch, 4+ save. Always take an Exarch for a free extra wound.
I don't think there needs to be a description of the units rules, or for every power/ability to be covered. How about something like:
Unit: Dire Avengers
Tournament stats: (I'm not sure what form these actually take!)
Ways to play them: (people post how they run the unit, and all the ideas are listed) eg...
I run them as 58pts for a 5 man unit with an Exarch with 2x Catapults, and the Shredding Fire Exarch power. This configuration is cheap to fill out a battalion. It's fast with good firepower for it's cost, but isn't very durable, so I like to run them in Wave Serpents.
I'm a mad cat who likes to run a full unit of 10 with the Avenging Strikes Exarch power in a Wave Serpent. The plan is for my Serpent to get blown to bits, taking an Avenger or two with it, so that the squad gets +1 to hit and wound!
This would work, and as for tournament stats, you could easily list the frequency of said unit appearing in ITC lists for the past year and how many units were taken. Maybe state that they're a troop tax for CP etc. Not every unit that is taken are taken because they're good, it's because they're cheap filler units!
So I've had the crazy idea of running both avatars, Khaines and Ynneads, in the same list. I think this is allowed so long as they are not in the same detachment.
Initially I thought of going with hordes of Guardians to screen them, as they would be fearless, but I decided that they weren't durable enough. Instead I'm going to try screening with Wave Serpents and Ynnari Wraithseers:
Ynnari Supreme Command:
Yncarne
Wraithseer, 5+++ and half all damage relic.
Wraithseer, 5+++ WL trait and -1 to hit relic.
Craftworlds Battalion: Masters of Concealment and Master Crafters
Avatar
Farseer
5x Avengers, shredding Fire
5x Avengers, shredding Fire
5x Avengers, shredding Fire
5x Avengers, shredding Fire
The super tough Wraithseers and Wave Serpents have to be taken out before the avatars can be shot, which hopefully gives the Prisms and Crimson Hunter a free ride.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: So I've had the crazy idea of running both avatars, Khaines and Ynneads, in the same list. I think this is allowed so long as they are not in the same detachment.
Initially I thought of going with hordes of Guardians to screen them, as they would be fearless, but I decided that they weren't durable enough. Instead I'm going to try screening with Wave Serpents and Ynnari Wraithseers:
Ynnari Supreme Command:
Yncarne
Wraithseer, 5+++ and half all damage relic.
Wraithseer, 5+++ WL trait and -1 to hit relic.
Craftworlds Battalion: Masters of Concealment and Master Crafters
Avatar
Farseer
5x Avengers, shredding Fire
5x Avengers, shredding Fire
5x Avengers, shredding Fire
5x Avengers, shredding Fire
The super tough Wraithseers and Wave Serpents have to be taken out before the avatars can be shot, which hopefully gives the Prisms and Crimson Hunter a free ride.
AOK is not a named character as per an FAQ. As such he can take warlord traits.
Not sure how others feel but im on the side of the fence where i see this is a CWE tactica thread.. The moment you put in ynnari detatchement it becomes ynarri soup.
Any tactical discussion imvolving ynmari should in my opinion move to ynnari tactica thread.
AOK is not a named character as per an FAQ. As such he can take warlord traits.
Not sure how others feel but im on the side of the fence where i see this is a CWE tactica thread.. The moment you put in ynnari detatchement it becomes ynarri soup.
Any tactical discussion imvolving ynmari should in my opinion move to ynnari tactica thread.
I thought I'd read something saying AOK couldn't have WL traits once upon a time.
I'm not sure which thread a list which combines more than one faction should go, but Ynnari are so rarely used it's not likely to be an issue often
The super tough Wraithseers and Wave Serpents have to be taken out before the avatars can be shot, which hopefully gives the Prisms and Crimson Hunter a free ride.
I'm pretty sure the wraithseers being characters make them unable to screen for the AoK?
Other than that, i 100% support playing the yncarne + Wraithseer in a supreme command, loads of fun and it taxes the opponent on their decision making (with the yncarne being able to navigate the whole map easily).
Sarigar wrote: Assuming the Hemlock or weapons points do not change, I swap out a Hemlock for a CHE, giving me 3 CHE and 2 Hemlocks.
With Hawkeye and Expert Crafters, the points increase is still a near auto take.
Yep. Its just now you get less of anything else you might want to take in a hard core competitive scene. (Yaaaaaay.. ?) I can maybe see an argument being made for hemlocks being more common sight now as the point gap has decreased. But still think CHE with hawkeye and crafters is just tooo good.
Sarigar wrote: Assuming the Hemlock or weapons points do not change, I swap out a Hemlock for a CHE, giving me 3 CHE and 2 Hemlocks.
With Hawkeye and Expert Crafters, the points increase is still a near auto take.
Yep. Its just now you get less of anything else you might want to take in a hard core competitive scene. (Yaaaaaay.. ?)
I can maybe see an argument being made for hemlocks being more common sight now as the point gap has decreased. But still think CHE with hawkeye and crafters is just tooo good.
Each list will be different, but I literally swapped a Hemlock for a third CHE. Previous Airwing: 2 CHE, 3 Hemlock. New Airwing: 3 CHE, 2 Hemlock. I acknowledge the obvious that there is an extra 15 points needed, but I just went from a 952 point Airwing to a 948 point Airwing. It may impact others more significantly, but it was a very minor adjustment, personally.
Sarigar wrote: Assuming the Hemlock or weapons points do not change, I swap out a Hemlock for a CHE, giving me 3 CHE and 2 Hemlocks.
With Hawkeye and Expert Crafters, the points increase is still a near auto take.
Yep. Its just now you get less of anything else you might want to take in a hard core competitive scene. (Yaaaaaay.. ?)
I can maybe see an argument being made for hemlocks being more common sight now as the point gap has decreased. But still think CHE with hawkeye and crafters is just tooo good.
Each list will be different, but I literally swapped a Hemlock for a third CHE. Previous Airwing: 2 CHE, 3 Hemlock. New Airwing: 3 CHE, 2 Hemlock. I acknowledge the obvious that there is an extra 15 points needed, but I just went from a 952 point Airwing to a 948 point Airwing. It may impact others more significantly, but it was a very minor adjustment, personally.
Don't blame you. The CHE is just head over heels better than anything else in the codex.
So does the benefits of CHEs and Hemlocks outweigh the fact of having so many flyers in a list? If the flyers are ignored and ground forces focused won't this end badly?
Flyer spam was a top table list in tournament play for a reason and also the reason behind people's eyes rolling back in their head every time you tell them that you play Eldar.
I've had one game where I used to run 4 in which m y opponent did remove all of my non fliers. It can happen, but I find it extremely uncommon to the point I am not deterred by the rule.
I lose a Grotesque with these changes. That is of course if there are not other changes.
I do fear that the Hemlock will get a point increase along with all of our better units. Will be curious how much it worsens our chances against the new 30k meta.
bullyboy wrote: I know that the CHE hasn't been nerfed enough to stop me from getting one now to complement my 2 Hemlocks.
100%. 15 points is nothing really and you can easily re-work a list to find 45 points.
That said, there is also the potential that we might see some weapons cost changes. If so, the Starcannon could be one of them which would further bump the cost up.
bullyboy wrote: I know that the CHE hasn't been nerfed enough to stop me from getting one now to complement my 2 Hemlocks.
100%. 15 points is nothing really and you can easily re-work a list to find 45 points.
That said, there is also the potential that we might see some weapons cost changes. If so, the Starcannon could be one of them which would further bump the cost up.
Ohh brother.... I really hope they don't do this. Making weapon options available to an entire army go up because one unit is soo damn good with it is sooo stupid..
They really need data sheets having separate point costs for their war gear again... This is getting stupid. A BL or SC on a CHE, is not worth the same points as a BL on a bloody squad of guardians or a Vyper or a wraithlord.
Yeah, they did that for the CHE on the WH community website and I had to do a double take to understand what they were on about. I don't think I ever consider the base cost of a model without wargear.
Phoenix Rising FAQ up. Force will is now changed to add 2 to a psychic test for another seer til end of phase, and withdraw for warp spiders dictates that they must be within 1" of a unit to use it.
Force Will is quite good now since many Eldar powers are higher on the casting side, especially getting that Jinx off.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyranid Horde wrote: Yeah, they did that for the CHE on the WH community website and I had to do a double take to understand what they were on about. I don't think I ever consider the base cost of a model without wargear.
Well you have to since the CHE can take brightlances instead of starcannons.
Argive wrote: Faq - if anyone also had ideas about running a bad ass conclave. Well thats not happening
its a shame as its a decent power in a void, its just outside of the Yncarne, and maybe Cat Lady we just don't have the combat monster to take it over Smite
Argive wrote: Faq - if anyone also had ideas about running a bad ass conclave. Well thats not happening
its a shame as its a decent power in a void, its just outside of the Yncarne, and maybe Cat Lady we just don't have the combat monster to take it over Smite
I'm pretty sure the runes of fortune are only acessible by Craftworld psykers, no?
Argive wrote: Faq - if anyone also had ideas about running a bad ass conclave. Well thats not happening
its a shame as its a decent power in a void, its just outside of the Yncarne, and maybe Cat Lady we just don't have the combat monster to take it over Smite
I'm pretty sure the runes of fortune are only acessible by Craftworld psykers, no?
I suspect that might be the case, dont have my book to hand but sounds about the correct level of fun policing the xenos get lumped with (would also be cool on the Wraithseer but seems being dead make you forget the power all other pskjers have )
I thought I found a workaround and use the Iyanden warlord trait to turn an autarch into a psycher... It would actgualy make Iyanded a viable detatchement potentialy... Alas it does not give the keryword.
I dont ever invision taking or casting the power over ghostwalk or protect/jinx. You'd just smite with any of the seers units anyway. Very disappointing. Clearly the fearsome conclave full of T3 2W models clocking in at 500 points was ruining the meta..
Focus Will affects all the powers that a psyker casts now right? So a farseer gets +2 to 2 powers, Eldrad gets it to 3 powers. With his built in bonus, Focus WIll, and the Seer Council strat Eldrad can get +4 to cast! I think this might be the best Rune of Fortune power.
I really don't think they needed to change Withdraw on Warp Spiders, it was really nice how it was.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Focus Will affects all the powers that a psyker casts now right? So a farseer gets +2 to 2 powers, Eldrad gets it to 3 powers. With his built in bonus, Focus WIll, and the Seer Council strat Eldrad can get +4 to cast! I think this might be the best Rune of Fortune power.
I really don't think they needed to change Withdraw on Warp Spiders, it was really nice how it was.
Eldrad is locked onto ulthwe and doesnt get any traits outside of the ulthwe ones.
Eldrad is locked onto ulthwe and doesnt get any traits outside of the ulthwe ones.
? Focus Will is available to any Craftworld.
I think it makes Seer Councils much more viable. With the Children of Prophecy craftworld trait, Focus Will, and the Seer Council Strat, the lowest you can roll for a psy test is 7. That means you are guaranteed to successfully cast, unless you get denied.
Edit: I made an Aspect Warrior heavy list that I really want to be good
Autarch Skyrunner, Laser Lance, -1 to be hit relic, +1W and 6+++ WL Trait
Farseer Skyrunner, Doom, Executioner, Smite
Warlock Skyrunner, Focus Will, Protect/Jinx
Wave Serpent, Spirit Stones, Twin Scatter Laser
-5x Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire
-5x Fire Dragons, Exarch, Swiftstep
Wave Serpent, Spirit Stones, Twin Scatter Laser
-5x Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire
-5x Fire Dragons, Exarch, Swiftstep
Wave Serpent, Spirit Stones, Twin Scatter Laser
-5x Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire
-4x Dark Reapers, Exarch, Rapid Shot
Wave Serpent, Spirit Stones, Twin Scatter Laser
-5x Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire
-3x Dark Reapers, Exarch, AML, Rapid Shot
-3x Dark Reapers, Exarch, AML, Rapid Shot
3x Shining Spears, Exarch, Star Lance, Skilled Rider
3x Shining Spears, Exarch, Star Lance, Skilled Rider
3x Shining Spears, Exarch, Star Lance, Skilled Rider
So, MSU of the Aspect Warriors that can actually pack a punch. Master Crafters will be doing good work.
Mixing different units in the Serpents spreads out my threats, and lets me take casualties on the Avengers if they blow up.
I'm not sure if I should drop one of the Shining Spear units and use the points to upgrade the Serpents with Star Cannons, Chin Cannons and CTM. The Scatter Lasers may be useful for hordes.
Eldrad is locked onto ulthwe and doesnt get any traits outside of the ulthwe ones.
? Focus Will is available to any Craftworld.
I think it makes Seer Councils much more viable. With the Children of Prophecy craftworld trait, Focus Will, and the Seer Council Strat, the lowest you can roll for a psy test is 7. That means you are guaranteed to successfully cast, unless you get denied.
Edit: I made an Aspect Warrior heavy list that I really want to be good
Autarch Skyrunner, Laser Lance, -1 to be hit relic, +1W and 6+++ WL Trait
Farseer Skyrunner, Doom, Executioner, Smite
Warlock Skyrunner, Focus Will, Protect/Jinx
Wave Serpent, Spirit Stones, Twin Scatter Laser
-5x Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire
-5x Fire Dragons, Exarch, Swiftstep
Wave Serpent, Spirit Stones, Twin Scatter Laser
-5x Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire
-5x Fire Dragons, Exarch, Swiftstep
Wave Serpent, Spirit Stones, Twin Scatter Laser
-5x Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire
-4x Dark Reapers, Exarch, Rapid Shot
Wave Serpent, Spirit Stones, Twin Scatter Laser
-5x Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire
-3x Dark Reapers, Exarch, AML, Rapid Shot
-3x Dark Reapers, Exarch, AML, Rapid Shot
3x Shining Spears, Exarch, Star Lance, Skilled Rider
3x Shining Spears, Exarch, Star Lance, Skilled Rider
3x Shining Spears, Exarch, Star Lance, Skilled Rider
So, MSU of the Aspect Warriors that can actually pack a punch. Master Crafters will be doing good work.
Mixing different units in the Serpents spreads out my threats, and lets me take casualties on the Avengers if they blow up.
I'm not sure if I should drop one of the Shining Spear units and use the points to upgrade the Serpents with Star Cannons, Chin Cannons and CTM. The Scatter Lasers may be useful for hordes.
[/spoiler]
Sorry I misunderstood what you were trying to do with Eldrad. I think got focus will confused with the psychic trait and thought you were trying to give Eldad +2 to cast from that.
Interesting list, almost a brigade
Id go for tempest launcher and rain of death on at least one of the reapers for extra duality.
I hadn't actually noticed how close it was to a brigade! I'll have to see if I can make it one, but it might require too many compromises. I've not tested it yet, probably next week.
I did test out the last list I posted against the new Sisters:
Spoiler:
Ynnari Supreme Command:
Yncarne Wraithseer, 5+++ and half all damage relic. Wraithseer, 5+++ WL trait and -1 to hit relic.
Craftworlds Battalion: Masters of Concealment and Master Crafters
Avatar Farseer
5x Avengers, shredding Fire 5x Avengers, shredding Fire 5x Avengers, shredding Fire 5x Avengers, shredding Fire
Wave Serpents, Fire Prisms, and Crimson Hunters are all reliable units that performed as expected. Masters of Concealment is very good on all of these, giving a 5+ against AP-3 anti tank guns, and a 3+ vs Heavy Bolters that couldn't find a better target. Master Crafters is great too, Prisms rely on Linked Fire a lot less with it. I continue to be impressed by Dire Avenger Exarchs with Master Crafters and Shredding Fire, they reliably remove models from the table (although the 4++ saves most of the sisters were getting put a dampener on that). The Farseer was killing more sisters than anyone else thanks to Executioner and Smite, Doom wasn't much good against all the MSU.
The Avatar of Khaine, bless him, did not impress. He chopped an Immolator in half (suffering MWs from the explosion), then spent some time hitting T3 models with 4++ 's. He died to random bolters and CC attacks, I brought him back to life for 3CP, rolled a 1 for the number of wounds, used a CP reroll, rolled another 1 He doesn't really have any tricks that justify his points cost, and is too slow to be able to pick his own fights. He was the least impressive of my 4 monsters, 2 of which cost half as many points.
Slightly off topic Ynnari stuff:
Spoiler:
The Ynnari Supreme Command detachment was very good. They had the same problem with T3, 4++ that everything else did, but they were really upsetting my opponent. Those Wraithseers are tough as nails! They lasted longer than the Avatars they were screening for! They did well at screening though, preventing any serious shooting going at the Avatars, which meant they had to be dealt with in CC. AOK went down to basic Sisters, the Yncarne required the attention of Saint Celestine. She failed to do the job on the first attempt, died on the counter attack, then came back to life and finished the job. What was really great was that my opponent spent 2 turns trying NOT to kill anything in his shooting phase, so that the Yncarne couldn't teleport away from the combat
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Those Wraithseers are tough as nails! They lasted longer than the Avatars they were screening for! They did well at screening though, preventing any serious shooting going at the Avatars
wraithseers are characters, can they screen for avatars?
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Those Wraithseers are tough as nails! They lasted longer than the Avatars they were screening for! They did well at screening though, preventing any serious shooting going at the Avatars
wraithseers are characters, can they screen for avatars?
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Those Wraithseers are tough as nails! They lasted longer than the Avatars they were screening for! They did well at screening though, preventing any serious shooting going at the Avatars
wraithseers are characters, can they screen for avatars?
From THE BIG FAQ 2 2018:
An enemy Character with a Wounds characteristic of less than 10 can only be chosen as a target in the Shooting phase if it is both visible to the
firing model and it is the closest enemy unit to the firing model. Ignore other enemy Characters with a Wounds characteristics of less than 10
when determining if the target is the closest enemy unit to the firing model.
I think that's still the most up to date character targeting rules.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Those Wraithseers are tough as nails! They lasted longer than the Avatars they were screening for! They did well at screening though, preventing any serious shooting going at the Avatars
wraithseers are characters, can they screen for avatars?
Yes, as they have more than 9 wounds.
uh, i thought the >10 wounds only applied to the target, not to the "characters dont block other characters" part of the rul TIL, and i lost one too many yncarne because i missread.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Those Wraithseers are tough as nails! They lasted longer than the Avatars they were screening for! They did well at scAn enemy Character with a Wounds characteristic of less than 10 can only be chosen as a target in the Shooting phase if it is both visible to the
firing model and it is the closest enemy unit to the firing model. Ignore other enemy Characters with a Wounds characteristics of less than 10 when determining if the target is the closest enemy unit to the firing model.
thats the part i never realised was wordde this way
You pay a premium with the avatar for his ignore morale aura, which your list doesn't need. Asurman is expensive but is a decent beatstick, especially with empower for 1-2 d3 mortals a round, and will give all the avengers a 4++ so makes them more survivable too. The 50 points nearly gets you a warlock for empower if you want to go with the mortals.
Review of CA'19, you can just make out all of the points for Eldar if you squint a bit.
Aside from what we already know about CH (up 10-15 points), most other changes are smallish adjustments down. Can confirm no change for Avatar. Some notable ones compared to last CA I've listed below:
Dark reapers down 3
Shining Spears down 4
Fire Prisms down 14
Falcon down 10
Wraithguard down 6 points for D-Scythe and 5 for Wraithcannon
Wraithblade with Ghostaxes down 10 points (axe and shield went down 6 and 4 points respectively)
Scorpions 9ppm Banshees 11ppm
Wraithknight down another 30 points
Scattershield (for the WK) down 15 points (I think, its a bit blocked in video).
Shimmershield (for DA Exarch) down 5 points (Also a bit blocked so not 100% on that)
Warlocks (both conclave and individual) and also Spiritseers, all down by 10 ppm.
Warlock skyrunner down 5.
Wraithlord down 5.
Autarch with Swooping Hawk wings down 5.
Vypers and War Walkers both down 5ppm.
Twin Eldar Missile Launcher down 5.
Vibrocannon down 5.
Twin brightlance possibly down 5, really hard to see.
Fire Dragons down 2 points. Fuegan down 15. Asurmen down 25. Eldrad up 10 points. (edit - sorry Wave Serpents no change, that was last year)
Theres probably more but my eyes are getting a bit sore from squinting and blurry writing. They've added all of the points entries in the codex, even those which are the same as the codex, which is nice, but makes it tough to double check all the new changes in this particular book
Considering every other army got point drops and/or are awaiting buffs in Psychic Awakening, Wraithknight remains pretty much where it was before, perhaps a little closer to par-for-the-course. I still think there are better choices for big mobile punchy units in that price bracket for Eldar. Shining spears are looking juicy again at just 30ppm for example.
Time will tell, but I don't see anything jumping out at me as meta-redefining. Crimson Hunter Exarchs will still be great considering the buff they got in PA. I'm continuing to edit my post with more changes so stay tuned.
I think with the other drops to wraith units (unit of 5 axe/shield is now 50pts less), the wraithknight might be squeezed into a role. With suncannon, shield, 2 starcannons, it comes in at 386pts.
Thinking of a Supreme Command with Spiritseer and 5 Axe/shield wraithblades in serpent, 2 wraithseers, wraithknight. Give the detachment Wrath of the Dead (reroll failed wounds of 1) and one other trait (maybe Savage Blades) and have some fun.
Interesting. I seen rumours wk down 45 for sword and board... I got my ca on pre-order so will jidt have to wait to get all the points. Im sure there will be some more hidden changes for obscure stuff no one spotted.
Well stone me. After checking through the CA points via some you-tube vids, I've found that I've just saved nearly 200 pts across my wraith host collection and can now get nearly all of it for 2k
Big winners are Wraithblades with axe and shield and d-scythe guard as well.
I'm delighted with CA so far and PA certainly helped but this has convinced me armies will be able to compete against SM. Maybe not across the board but in the main.
kryczek wrote: Well stone me. After checking through the CA points via some you-tube vids, I've found that I've just saved nearly 200 pts across my wraith host collection and can now get nearly all of it for 2k
Big winners are Wraithblades with axe and shield and d-scythe guard as well.
I'm delighted with CA so far and PA certainly helped but this has convinced me armies will be able to compete against SM. Maybe not across the board but in the main.
Im looking forward to getting my book/new points.
With the new PA rules there's certainly new build and perhaps a brigade build is now doable
I wonder if any of the war gear has changed. I was really hoping for troops and AOK decrease. AOK still being 220 is criminal... :(
Argive wrote: Interesting. I seen rumours wk down 45 for sword and board... I got my ca on pre-order so will jidt have to wait to get all the points. Im sure there will be some more hidden changes for obscure stuff no one spotted.
yep, I believe it's broken down as WK down 30pts, shield down 15pts.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kryczek wrote: Well stone me. After checking through the CA points via some you-tube vids, I've found that I've just saved nearly 200 pts across my wraith host collection and can now get nearly all of it for 2k
Big winners are Wraithblades with axe and shield and d-scythe guard as well.
I'm delighted with CA so far and PA certainly helped but this has convinced me armies will be able to compete against SM. Maybe not across the board but in the main.
yep, I ran axe and shield before, now I'm saving 50pts with them.
Argive wrote: Interesting. I seen rumours wk down 45 for sword and board... I got my ca on pre-order so will jidt have to wait to get all the points. Im sure there will be some more hidden changes for obscure stuff no one spotted.
yep, I believe it's broken down as WK down 30pts, shield down 15pts.
Unfortunately its the Shimmershield (Dire Avenger Exarch shield) that went down 15, but the Scattershield of the WK did go down 5 points.
Bottom right corner is the wargear, it's a bit blocked by their stupid logo unfortunately but you can see the Scattershield (for the WK) at 15 points down from 20 pretty clearly. The Shimmershield for DA Exarchs is partially blocked but looks like a 5 to me.
The line blocked out by the video bar is the Avatar @ 220 points btw.
Bottom right corner is the wargear, it's a bit blocked by their stupid logo unfortunately but you can see the Scattershield (for the WK) at 15 points down from 20 pretty clearly. The Shimmershield for DA Exarchs is partially blocked but looks like a 5 to me.
The line blocked out by the video bar is the Avatar @ 220 points btw.
You are wrong with what you initially said in your previous post, the shimmer shield did not go down 15.
To clarify :
Shimmershield was 10 now is 5.
Scatter shield was 30 now is 15.
Titanic ghost glaive is no change at 30.
Wraithknight base went down 30.
Wraithknight with titanic ghost glaive and scatter shield is now 330pts.
Bottom right corner is the wargear, it's a bit blocked by their stupid logo unfortunately but you can see the Scattershield (for the WK) at 15 points down from 20 pretty clearly. The Shimmershield for DA Exarchs is partially blocked but looks like a 5 to me.
The line blocked out by the video bar is the Avatar @ 220 points btw.
You are wrong with what you initially said in your previous post, the shimmer shield did not go down 15.
To clarify :
Shimmershield was 10 now is 5.
Scatter shield was 30 now is 15.
Titanic ghost glaive is no change at 30.
Wraithknight base went down 30.
Wraithknight with titanic ghost glaive and scatter shield is now 330pts.
Ah right, I must have just looked at the codex. Like I said I just skimmed through it, and comparing 3 books to dig out all the changes wasn't something I wanted to spend the time checking twice, especially wargear.
Anyways at this rate WK will be back to its 7th ed price by next year.
Just saved nearly 150 points on my WG spam list, fun times ahead.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Does anyone know how he legends stuff is going to work? Are we definitely losing Autarch Skyrunners with Banshee masks and Fusion/Reaper Launcher?
from what we know so far : If the unit isnt in the codex (or FW index), its going into legends.
This means that our autarch on bike and autarch with warp jump gen are both gone once legends hits.
What isn't 100% clear : IF a unit is in a codex but its got index wargear options, will these options be relegated to legends (basic autarch with banshee mask)
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: The Skyrunner is in the codex though (I think warp jump is too). It's the index wargear options I'm wondering about.
yeah, my bad, i had a brainfart with the skyrunner. I just checked and the warp jump isnt in the codex (no currently in production model...).
Yeah, im curious about index wargear since it would also affect my blaster archon for my drukhari. My guts are telling me that anything index is gonna be removed.
If youre meme-ing like in the other post (stompa OP omg) youre in tehe wrong post.
Its pretty clear to me that the wraithknight is better than the stompa pts for pts. I'd much rather have 2 knights than 1 stompa.
It was intended to imply that the WK is overcosted, but nowhere near as overcosted as the Stompa. At least our big(-ish) bad isn't too far outside the realm of reasonable.
That said, now that I think about it, the Revenant might be the closer analogue. Don't recall it's rules off the top of my head.
Kebabcito wrote: What's the eldar meta now? aren't SP and DR too nerfed?
They are both getting points drops so they might be playable again. I've always loved the shinging spear models (love medieval combat) and I think they could be pretty good. I've never used dark reapers but, like fire dragons, they have always seemed too squishy for me. I'm looking forward to the points drops for all the wraith units as I have ~2500pts of units, and with masters of concealment their points will match their toughness, then when you get close you can just smoosh everything.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Recently played a 1250pt game with my buddy where I only had 2 wraithlords mixed with other units, and they tanked all of his antitank first turn and still got to combat on my turn. Just converted up a wraithseer so im excited to see how a wraithseer + 3 wraithlord (just swords) spearhead will fare. Only 370 points and going down!
Vibro cannons seem a bargain now at 35 points, good range and damage when spammed, should be good against marine units like aggressors too by denying advance.
The seven I've got ready to paint have moved to the top of my painting backlog.
Kebabcito wrote: What's the eldar meta now? aren't SP and DR too nerfed?
Spears and Reapers got a big enough boost from PA with their Exarch traits to see play in tournament lists again, especially Spears. Coupling that with points drops for both units means they're probably pretty viable.
Reapers are gonna compete against Fire Prisms which I believe have been reduced in points too.
With CA coming out it's hard to tell exactly what will make the meta lists but it's likely to be largely the same as currently seen: flyers!
You can outrange most of that ignoring LOS stuff for the most part though with the option to stick an extra 6" on the squad's weapon range. Add fire and fade into the mix and your opponent has a very hard time removing them.
Bharring wrote: The Wraithlord continues to be the lesser stompa; less powerful, less cost, and less overcosted.
ok?
I think wraithlords are even more attractive now that they got a small pts drop, theyre dirt cheap for the durability they bring.
I'm gonna start testing out a spearhead of starcannon wraithlords with expert crafters + masters of concealment
I'm personally considering dual AMLs with Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots.
yeah ive seen a lot of people play with AMLs, i just dont find them good enough, i'd much rather get the higher rate of fire of cannons(theyre cheaper too).
i feel like getting your long range wraithlords to a 2+ is really important to keep them alive but i can also see that marines in cover are a pain in the ass to shift.
Tyranid Horde wrote: You can outrange most of that ignoring LOS stuff for the most part though with the option to stick an extra 6" on the squad's weapon range. Add fire and fade into the mix and your opponent has a very hard time removing them.
Eh? Thundefire cannon is the main culprit right now, and it has a 60" range. One cannon using its 1cp strat will nuke 3.69 reapers per turn, before any doctrine or chapter shenanigans. Which SM army doesn't have at least one TFC in it right now?
I guess you might be able to dance around the identical range-bands of eliminators and reapers using fire and fade, but realistically that seems quite unlikely in most cases, given eliminiators' top-tier deployment options. If they want to reach your back board they can, in all but one of the deployment maps. I think you're just kinda wrong on this one.
Wraithlord Spearhead does sound like it has potential. 2 Wraithseers and 3 Wraithlords is only 440pts with no upgrades. Seems very reasonable for 54 T8 wounds to run at people with.
I think for Dark Reapers to work it's either a squad of 10 that fire and fades out of LoS, and gets at least a -2 to hit, plus cover for a 2+ Sv. Or 3x3 with fast shot Exarchs that are more expendable.
Bharring wrote: The Wraithlord continues to be the lesser stompa; less powerful, less cost, and less overcosted.
ok?
I think wraithlords are even more attractive now that they got a small pts drop, theyre dirt cheap for the durability they bring.
I'm gonna start testing out a spearhead of starcannon wraithlords with expert crafters + masters of concealment
I'm personally considering dual AMLs with Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots.
yeah ive seen a lot of people play with AMLs, i just dont find them good enough, i'd much rather get the higher rate of fire of cannons(theyre cheaper too).
i feel like getting your long range wraithlords to a 2+ is really important to keep them alive but i can also see that marines in cover are a pain in the ass to shift.
My reasoning is more to do with the Marine matchups being vs IF or IH. IH flyers will get within 12” of the Wraithlords, so you won’t be getting the cover bonus, whereas IF just flat out ignore cover on everything. In regards to RG and WS, they will probably be up in your lines turn 1 and 2 as well, so you won’t be getting much use of the trait.
That said, it’ll be good vs every other faction.
As for the AML, I think it’s more because I’ve started to move away from flyers, so I need a bit more higher strength fire power. The fact that it can double up to kill hordes is also a boon.
I've recently been testing a Spirithost Supreme Command in my competitive list that includes a dual heavy wraithcannon Wraithknight with Masters of Concealment and Expert Crafters. Depending on the matchup, I will often go with Divergence or Ghost Walk on one of my spiritseers. The Wraithknight becomes pretty durable with a 2+/4++/5+++ and interacts surprisingly well with the Haemy and the vexator mask.
I've been trying to develop a counter to the assault cent and positioning a haemy behind a buffed up WK with talos flanking it allows for a significant amount of board control.
The shooting dmg output has been onpar with my unit of 6 skyweavers netting around 7-14 wounds.
My current list consists of a POF Coven Battalion with 6 Talos, big squad of wracks, and 2 minimum squads. Flayed skull spearhead with triple dissies, and I have been swapping out my Harlies Vanguard with 6 skyweavers, 2x DJ, Solitaire, and Shadowseer for the CW supreme command with the WK.
What is nice, is that the list essentially nullifies small arms fire. I have only gotten 3 games in thus far with this iteration of my list, but it's looked promising. To be fair, I've only gone against White Scars, Space Wolves, and the old traditional Chaos Daemons list.
My reasoning is more to do with the Marine matchups being vs IF or IH. IH flyers will get within 12” of the Wraithlords, so you won’t be getting the cover bonus, whereas IF just flat out ignore cover on everything. In regards to RG and WS, they will probably be up in your lines turn 1 and 2 as well, so you won’t be getting much use of the trait.
That said, it’ll be good vs every other faction.
As for the AML, I think it’s more because I’ve started to move away from flyers, so I need a bit more higher strength fire power. The fact that it can double up to kill hordes is also a boon.
its true that more and more factions have ways to ignore cover nowadays, its probably a meta call between the two.
as a drukhari player, i love my dissies, i see starcannons as their equivalent. The fact that AMLs only have ap -2 is turning me off from them, at least bright/dark lances have stronger AP. Overall i find that theres just too many D6's on the AML, and i love consistency.
Automatically Appended Next Post: so the bonesinger is relegated to legends after getting a pts drop in the latest CA.. seems strange?
As i feared, index wargear options are also gone, so no mode banshee mask autarch for us.
so the bonesinger is relegated to legends after getting a pts drop in the latest CA.. seems strange?
As i feared, index wargear options are also gone, so no mode banshee mask autarch for us.
Ouch, that's a real kick in the nuts on both counts, but especially the mask. Does this leverage a squad of banshees though, given their new low price, just for their overwatch ability? I know noone likes the idea of aspect chaff, but it is where we are: scorpions and banshees are now cheap enough to bring, and can pack a little punch.
Yeah it's a huge kick int he balls. My foottarch backline support does not feel viable now.. 70pts for a re-roll 1's aura is very weak sauce... Not sure If I will even bother buildig/converting any more autarchs now.
They should have put autarch on foot into legends as well seeing as it ain't got a model... Ehh fething GW....
TBH im more salty about the boneinger. Was really excited with 55pts! Thought about making some cool brigades and wraith/vehicle builds...
Its ok.. the WK went down 30 pts (yaaaaaaayyyyy.....!!!!) -_-
Argive wrote: Yeah it's a huge kick int he balls. My foottarch backline support does not feel viable now.. 70pts for a re-roll 1's aura is very weak sauce... Not sure If I will even bother buildig/converting any more autarchs now.
They should have put autarch on foot into legends as well seeing as it ain't got a model... Ehh fething GW....
TBH im more salty about the boneinger. Was really excited with 55pts! Thought about making some cool brigades and wraith/vehicle builds...
Its ok.. the WK went down 30 pts (yaaaaaaayyyyy.....!!!!) -_-
Yeh I was all up for adding my Bonesinger into a Spearhead of Wraithlords etc, but, now… Yeh... :(
That said, dropping my Autarch and the Bonesinger will now give me a fair few points to play around with!
The loss of wargear options is unfortunate, but I think Autarch Skyrunners are still a decent HQ choice. Thier buffs and damage output are more reliable than a Farseers, as they don't require psy tests, and they're a more durable Warlord. The Mark of the Incomparable Hunter WL trait isn't worth it anymore, but An Eye On Distant Events lets them ignore overwatch again. Fates Messenger is also decent, taking them up to 7W with a 6+++.
Warlocks have had a massive boost recently with their 10pts discount and the addition of Focus will and Ghostwalk powers. Using the Seer Council strat Lets you Focus Will on a 5+ to give a Farseer +3 to cast for when you really need your powers to work. if you don't need the boost then they still have good old Protect/Jinx.
I'd stopped using Quicken as it wasn't reliable enough to commit to in the movement phase, but I may give it a go now with a Focus Will Warlock to force it through.
A Focus Will Warlock + Eldrad using Seer Council, and Unparalleled Mastery strats makes possibly the most powerful Psyker in the game. 4 powers, 1 with +3 to cast and 3 with +4 to cast, plus Farseer rerolls. Feels right.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can anyone confirm that Warlock Skyrunner Conclaves are now 48ppm? Plus 2pts for the twin shuri cats and 5pts for Spears = 55ppm?
If so I'm looking at a Supreme Command Windrider Host detachment of
Same place if you'd play where people do not like using Index. I am surprised TOs were so lenient on this before, but then before GW enforced good rules like Rule of 3 they were also fine with people spamming same opFW unit 9 times which is telling.
Same place if you'd play where people do not like using Index. I am surprised TOs were so lenient on this before, but then before GW enforced good rules like Rule of 3 they were also fine with people spamming same opFW unit 9 times which is telling.
Because index options were and are enshrined in an official FAQ flowchart.
The legends stuff is a self-contradicting community article...
Or buying second hand OOP autarch kits with the launcher...
Can't speak for what the intent was... but the FAQ is pretty clear about index Rules...
Anyway, it blows. banshee mask at least should be an option. The no model no rules that only apply to certain things is getting real old. Arent Relics basically a war gear option that gives rules... I don't see any wings on spirit seers with falochus wing being modelled or special guns/relic swords hammers any time soon. Ehh... I guess a new tournament/play "Legends" format has just been born lol.
Anyway. A suicidal phoenix gem autarch and 3x MSU spear units could become a viable tactic.
I think id just go for more psykers /MW instead especially if warlocks went back down in price. The autarch really needed to get cheaper if all he was going to do is give a poxy re-roll 1 aura and 4 attacks. Gotta wait for all the points on Saturday.
Argive wrote: The autarch really needed to get cheaper if all he was going to do is give a poxy re-roll 1 aura and 4 attacks
I think he did? Because Forceshield got cheaper a bit.
For foot and winged Autarchs, they did get cheaper because of the Force shield points change. But Skyrunner Autarchs never had Force shields, they have a free ability called Peerless Agility for their 4++. So they did not get cheaper
Considering GW are pushing these constant books out the quality control is really bad on them eg the Bonesinger differing points in Chapter approved. I wouldn't mind buying books if they were high quality but rules wise they are constantly making errors.
Not to mention they have really screwed up the Autarch so now really the Skyrunner is the only option that is competitive and without Banshee Mask it is pretty weak. There should have been a MPPK with all options but that's for another thread.
The idea of Legends is that for tournaments only models you can buy can be used, not old models from years ago that some might find very hard to get hold of. This is a good idea I think as it makes it more inclusive. I believe legend units are still usable in everything but tournaments? Unless specifically stated in tournament rules
Tyranid Horde wrote: Legends aren't matched play legal, which I think the majority of people use, not just tournament players.
Where does it say not matched play?
This is from Warhammer Community article:
The Warhammer 40,000 Legends page contains datasheets and additional wargear options, definitive profiles that will live on their own dedicated page, enabling you to unleash your treasured classics in open, narrative and matched play games, with full points provided to help you balance your games.
I wouldn't be surprised if GW have contradicted themselves in the book itself...
They are matched play legal. Hence the matched play points instead of power levels or whatever. They're only not legal if TOs says you can't bring them.
Not to mention they have really screwed up the Autarch so now really the Skyrunner is the only option that is competitive/
Cheap foot-tarch for re-rolls is used more often than biker actually. And it makes sense - you don't need to charge anything if you stick to buffing your stuff.
The Legends are suggested not being used in tournaments because their points will remain as a fixed value from now on.
On another hand been revising the CA points and i'm quite happy with the Wraithblades blades all melee options are the same and the Guard ones are even cheaper now.
Not to mention they have really screwed up the Autarch so now really the Skyrunner is the only option that is competitive/
Cheap foot-tarch for re-rolls is used more often than biker actually. And it makes sense - you don't need to charge anything if you stick to buffing your stuff.
I guess but 73pts vs 105pts the 33pts for maneuverability late game and slightly improved other stats would be more often better? Plus bigger model for bigger area of rerolls
still not convinced the geedubs aren't just making it up as they go along regarding Legends, the no model no rules thing is just plain daft as even with third party options the majority of my conversions started from a GW base (even the Chapterhouse Locks needed stock GW bikes)
if only we'd got a relic mask in the new book...(the vex mask doesn't have a model but relics are exempt, well apart from when they aren't)
Not to mention they have really screwed up the Autarch so now really the Skyrunner is the only option that is competitive/
Cheap foot-tarch for re-rolls is used more often than biker actually. And it makes sense - you don't need to charge anything if you stick to buffing your stuff.
I guess but 73pts vs 105pts the 33pts for maneuverability late game and slightly improved other stats would be more often better? Plus bigger model for bigger area of rerolls
It depends. If your backline is so overrun that he needs to run away/charge stuff it probably means your whole army is dead so even on a bike hes not going to make much impact. 4 attacks is the same as a primaris sergant.
. I always take foot tarch and hang out with reapers and stick them well in the back so he doesnt give away warlord easily. I give him falochus wing relic for that extra mobility in a pinch and save the points.
Dang I wasnt aware of that point drop. Do you guys have you books already? Supposed to be dropping at gw shop ready for pick up tomorrow
Not to mention they have really screwed up the Autarch so now really the Skyrunner is the only option that is competitive/
Cheap foot-tarch for re-rolls is used more often than biker actually. And it makes sense - you don't need to charge anything if you stick to buffing your stuff.
I guess but 73pts vs 105pts the 33pts for maneuverability late game and slightly improved other stats would be more often better? Plus bigger model for bigger area of rerolls
It depends. If your backline is so overrun that he needs to run away/charge stuff it probably means your whole army is dead so even on a bike hes not going to make much impact. 4 attacks is the same as a primaris sergant.
. I always take foot tarch and hang out with reapers and stick them well in the back so he doesnt give away warlord easily. I give him falochus wing relic for that extra mobility in a pinch and save the points.
Dang I wasnt aware of that point drop. Do you guys have you books already? Supposed to be dropping at gw shop ready for pick up tomorrow
I was thinking more for objective grabbing in later game and any other situation that arises later on?
These are points from one of the leaks from someone who got the book early no book yet for me.
Foot-tarch is worthless to me because while he is cheaper, he does NOTHING but buff units and maybe sit on an uncontested objective. I could just spend his point of more of the units he buffs
A Sky-tarch, otoh, cost less than twice a Foot-tarch and can do so, so much more. Plink shots with a Reaper launcher, move to support the right units, keep up with Spears, provides a legit melee counter assault threat, etc. Every 8E list I've ever had has at least 1, but most often 2 of them.
But I have very mobile list, always have, so a Sky-tarch fits my playstyle. YMMV if you have less mobile lists
Galef wrote: Foot-tarch is worthless to me because while he is cheaper, he does NOTHING but buff units and maybe sit on an uncontested objective. I could just spend his point of more of the units he buffs
A Sky-tarch, otoh, cost less than twice a Foot-tarch and can do so, so much more. Plink shots with a Reaper launcher, move to support the right units, keep up with Spears, provides a legit melee counter assault threat, etc.
Every 8E list I've ever had has at least 1, but most often 2 of them.
But I have very mobile list, always have, so a Sky-tarch fits my playstyle. YMMV if you have less mobile lists
-
You can give reaper launcher + mark of hunter to foot tarch and spend the spare points on the stuff hes buffing(reapers). He doesnt have to move if hes sitting back so shoots on 2+ rather than 3+.
Its a fair trade IMO. But now with wargear options gone im not sure its worth it. I have to wait and see all the points. I think lists will get a nice shake up.
On a side note, I never got the vigilus book, but i got the wraith host detatchement rules off someone. Is ther a generic strat that allows 2nd warlord trait on another character in there for everyone btw ?
Galef wrote: Foot-tarch is worthless to me because while he is cheaper, he does NOTHING but buff units and maybe sit on an uncontested objective. I could just spend his point of more of the units he buffs
A Sky-tarch, otoh, cost less than twice a Foot-tarch and can do so, so much more. Plink shots with a Reaper launcher, move to support the right units, keep up with Spears, provides a legit melee counter assault threat, etc.
Every 8E list I've ever had has at least 1, but most often 2 of them.
But I have very mobile list, always have, so a Sky-tarch fits my playstyle. YMMV if you have less mobile lists
-
You can give reaper launcher + mark of hunter to foot tarch and spend the spare points on the stuff hes buffing(reapers). He doesnt have to move if hes sitting back so shoots on 2+ rather than 3+.
Its a fair trade IMO. But now with wargear options gone im not sure its worth it. I have to wait and see all the points. I think lists will get a nice shake up.
On a side note, I never got the vigilus book, but i got the wraith host detatchement rules off someone. Is ther a generic strat that allows 2nd warlord trait on another character in there for everyone btw ?
Theres field commander that lets you give a warlord trait to a non-warlord unit but it only lets you give them the specialist detachment warlord trait
Most things have been leaked by now but i can see a couple things I havent seen mentioned:
Both twin EML & Twin BL down to 35 (not just EML)
Unfortunately single heavy weapons still at 20pts Blueegh....
Illic nightspear down to 65pts. You dont see this guy very often but wIth reaper launcher sniping autarch making an exit could be a decent sniping replacemnt/HQ slot for alitoic detatchment. (Unfortunately he does not give re-rolls)
D-cannons down to 35(45 previously) - With support platforms costing now 25(30 previously) could be interesting. Or might be worth sticking them on Wraithseers.
Quick shameless plug ... We officially launched our Chicago-based gaming group and website. Posted a competitive ITC battle report that showcases the Expert/Conceal WK I mentioned before.
Hey, really enjoying the batrep, it's well written, great photos, ITC format, my only suggestion would be more in-game photos and less showing off the amazing paint jobs. I'm just reading a good piece on GDFC about evaluating units outside of the 'making back their points' metric, glad to see this kind of content being produced. First Goonhammer, now GDFC, I'm feeling a bit spoiled!
Thanks for the feedback! And we have been writing these up for our own group edification for a while and decided last minute to post that one (then realized we didn't take photos of the game).
We will CERTAINLY do that in the future and are also going to have video batreps up shortly.
Most things have been leaked by now but i can see a couple things I havent seen mentioned:
Both twin EML & Twin BL down to 35 (not just EML)
Unfortunately single heavy weapons still at 20pts Blueegh....
Illic nightspear down to 65pts. You dont see this guy very often but wIth reaper launcher sniping autarch making an exit could be a decent sniping replacemnt/HQ slot for alitoic detatchment. (Unfortunately he does not give re-rolls)
D-cannons down to 35(45 previously) - With support platforms costing now 25(30 previously) could be interesting. Or might be worth sticking them on Wraithseers.
Thanks for the info, I think actually support weapons are already 25pts maybe from previous CA? I think all the others were in leak already too. I'd be interested to know how much warp spiders are now because the leaker mixed up points for them?
wannabmoy wrote: Quick shameless plug ... We officially launched our Chicago-based gaming group and website. Posted a competitive ITC battle report that showcases the Expert/Conceal WK I mentioned before.
wannabmoy wrote: Quick shameless plug ... We officially launched our Chicago-based gaming group and website. Posted a competitive ITC battle report that showcases the Expert/Conceal WK I mentioned before.
Great report, and great paint jobs! Also going to be looking at the wraithknight, but not sure it will replace my 2 Hemlocks.
Listening to one of the Sisters codex reviews they have something that allows you to ignore all penalties to hit so our flyers are going to be in trouble
Participated in the Maelstrom GT (ITC Event) this weekend. Not many photos but I took my mechanized Craftworld with custom traits. I played against, Imperial Fists, Astra Militarum (4 super heavies), Ultramarines, Iron Hands, and Ravenguard (with 17 Centurions). I went 4-1 and placed 5th out of 34 in battle points (so close to top 3). The one loss was against Iron Hands which was in round 4. My list only had 13 models, which made me a bit nervous. However, Expert Crafters is such a fantastic ability for this style of army. I got to go first against Astra Militarum (round 2) and Ravenguard (round 5). I only lost one unit in the first turn against Iron Hands (round 4). The list turned out to be quite resilient and very hard hitting. With the CA 2019 now released, I need to make some small changes as my Crimson Hunter Exarchswent up 15 points each. Also, with such a small model count army, I was able to set up quickly, play faster and thus ensure every game finished within time.
I’m still not convinced on full mech Eldar outside of Wave Serpent spam imh. I feel like you’re going to come up against a few Imperial Fists lists, which can take you apart pretty quickly if you focus on nothing but vehicles.
Was hoping to get some advice on building an Eldar list. I'd pretty much always wanted to run an Iyanden army since back in the day because who doesn't like alien robots? I hadn't really planned on getting any anytime soon, but I saw that Craftworld Apoc Detachment on sale the other week and just couldn't pass up the deal. So now I have the start of an Iyanden army (15x Wraightguard, 2x Wraithlords, 1x Farseer).
So the problem is, I am grossly unfamiliar with how the Eldar/Craftworld codices are doing these days.
Can anyone help me get some insight on what I may want to take/avoid in the list (other than hopefully an Iyanden list generally )? I'm not really sure what kinds of things I need to look out for to flesh this box out to a ~2k list.
Was hoping to get some advice on building an Eldar list. I'd pretty much always wanted to run an Iyanden army since back in the day because who doesn't like alien robots? I hadn't really planned on getting any anytime soon, but I saw that Craftworld Apoc Detachment on sale the other week and just couldn't pass up the deal. So now I have the start of an Iyanden army (15x Wraightguard, 2x Wraithlords, 1x Farseer).
So the problem is, I am grossly unfamiliar with how the Eldar/Craftworld codices are doing these days.
Can anyone help me get some insight on what I may want to take/avoid in the list (other than hopefully an Iyanden list generally )? I'm not really sure what kinds of things I need to look out for to flesh this box out to a ~2k list.
Much thanks in advance!
If you want to have a themed "wraith" army, i highly suggest you drop iyanden and pick a custom craftworld. I personally run my wraiths as Headstrong (+1 to charges) and wrath of the dead (wraiths rerolls wounds of 1).
i like having a 1-2 puch with my wraiths, i take half of them with the flamers and advance them up the field with some help from quicken. And i have some wraithblades with either loadouts in wave serpents to hit them on turn two.
Wraithlords are best ran either with only a sword, running up the board, or with big guns far from the fight.
Dont forget that the Hemlock wraithfighter is also a wraith unit
Aww crap. That sounds like I need to pick up one of the last Psychic Awakening books too then. Makes sense, though...the Iyanden stuff in the Codex seemed....'meh'.
I'm guessing the units on foot should probably be taken as a unit of 10?
Jin wrote: Aww crap. That sounds like I need to pick up one of the last Psychic Awakening books too then. Makes sense, though...the Iyanden stuff in the Codex seemed....'meh'.
I'm guessing the units on foot should probably be taken as a unit of 10?
the only good thing iyanden does for wraiths is give a shitton of attacks with the relic. and it helps lords/knights not degrade.
i like running them in squads of 5 because it means they fit in a wave serpent with their pocket spiritseer. if youre deepstriking/footslogging them, yeah, a 10 man squad is better.
With Psychic awakening we also got a possible +3 to the charge, which means deepstriking melee blades can actually work semi-reliably now.
Participated in the Maelstrom GT (ITC Event) this weekend. Not many photos but I took my mechanized Craftworld with custom traits. I played against, Imperial Fists, Astra Militarum (4 super heavies), Ultramarines, Iron Hands, and Ravenguard (with 17 Centurions). I went 4-1 and placed 5th out of 34 in battle points (so close to top 3). The one loss was against Iron Hands which was in round 4. My list only had 13 models, which made me a bit nervous. However, Expert Crafters is such a fantastic ability for this style of army. I got to go first against Astra Militarum (round 2) and Ravenguard (round 5). I only lost one unit in the first turn against Iron Hands (round 4). The list turned out to be quite resilient and very hard hitting. With the CA 2019 now released, I need to make some small changes as my Crimson Hunter Exarchswent up 15 points each. Also, with such a small model count army, I was able to set up quickly, play faster and thus ensure every game finished within time.
First photo is beginning of game and nearly everything is out of LOS and there are 2 Centurions in Deep Strike (round 5).
Second photo was the end of my turn two and I've destroyed two super heavy tanks (round 2).
This is great thank you. I guess because of the units you have you done need the batallion CP?
Also is this strictly mechanised? Sure you got transports but you only have two characters riding in them. It's focus is vehicles so maybe it needs another name?
CWE just won Slaaneshmas GT beating out Imperial Fists, Orks, and IH.
Four of the six GT's this past weekend included CWE in the top 4.
Twin starcannon wraithlords, night spinners, CHEs, nightwings, reapers, and vibro cannons all made an appearance. Two of the lists included a Yncarne.
Most lists took a custom craftworld with Expert Crafters/Masterful Shots. The one top 4 placing flyer spam list took Expert Crafters/Masters of Concealment instead.
Sean Nayden still doing Sean Nayden things with Biel-Tan, Sombre Sentinels, and Yncarne/Yvraine.
slave.entity wrote: CWE just won Slaaneshmas GT beating out Imperial Fists, Orks, and IH.
Four of the six GT's this past weekend included CWE in the top 4.
Twin starcannon wraithlords, night spinners, CHEs, nightwings, reapers, and vibro cannons all made an appearance. Two of the lists included a Yncarne.
Most lists took a custom craftworld with Expert Crafters/Masterful Shots. The one top 4 placing flyer spam list took Expert Crafters/Masters of Concealment instead.
Sean Nayden still doing Sean Nayden things with Biel-Tan, Sombre Sentinels, and Yncarne/Yvraine.
slave.entity wrote: CWE just won Slaaneshmas GT beating out Imperial Fists, Orks, and IH.
Four of the six GT's this past weekend included CWE in the top 4.
Twin starcannon wraithlords, night spinners, CHEs, nightwings, reapers, and vibro cannons all made an appearance. Two of the lists included a Yncarne.
Most lists took a custom craftworld with Expert Crafters/Masterful Shots. The one top 4 placing flyer spam list took Expert Crafters/Masters of Concealment instead.
Sean Nayden still doing Sean Nayden things with Biel-Tan, Sombre Sentinels, and Yncarne/Yvraine.
Alaitoc is no where in sight.
I was running vibro cannons before it was cool...
Its a welcome change. I' a bit surprised about the twin star cannon wraith lords.
Kdash wrote: I’m still not convinced on full mech Eldar outside of Wave Serpent spam imh. I feel like you’re going to come up against a few Imperial Fists lists, which can take you apart pretty quickly if you focus on nothing but vehicles.
My first game was against Imperial Fists, which was a very close game, with me winning by only two points. 4 of my 5 games were against Marines with over half the players bringing Marines (19 out of 34 players).
If not going first, maximize staying out of range as much as possible. I utilized Phantasm in two games to ensure this. I went second 3 of 5 games.
Right now, Marines of all flavors have all the tools and it does feel like it is an uphill battle facing those armies.
Participated in the Maelstrom GT (ITC Event) this weekend. Not many photos but I took my mechanized Craftworld with custom traits. I played against, Imperial Fists, Astra Militarum (4 super heavies), Ultramarines, Iron Hands, and Ravenguard (with 17 Centurions). I went 4-1 and placed 5th out of 34 in battle points (so close to top 3). The one loss was against Iron Hands which was in round 4. My list only had 13 models, which made me a bit nervous. However, Expert Crafters is such a fantastic ability for this style of army. I got to go first against Astra Militarum (round 2) and Ravenguard (round 5). I only lost one unit in the first turn against Iron Hands (round 4). The list turned out to be quite resilient and very hard hitting. With the CA 2019 now released, I need to make some small changes as my Crimson Hunter Exarchswent up 15 points each. Also, with such a small model count army, I was able to set up quickly, play faster and thus ensure every game finished within time.
First photo is beginning of game and nearly everything is out of LOS and there are 2 Centurions in Deep Strike (round 5).
Second photo was the end of my turn two and I've destroyed two super heavy tanks (round 2).
This is great thank you. I guess because of the units you have you done need the batallion CP?
Also is this strictly mechanised? Sure you got transports but you only have two characters riding in them. It's focus is vehicles so maybe it needs another name?
It would be nice to have more CP, but I wanted to run vehicles more, which excluded the battalion. In 5th edition, we called vehicle heavy lists Mechdar. This is, more or less, the same concept but tweaked for 8th edition.
So, this is the list I was considering, but, the main unit can likely be swapped out for whatever you’d personally prefer. Chances are this might take me a while to put together, so, no point in trying to hide it!
It gives 24 screening bodies and 20 4++ Dire Avenger bodies (when blobbed up with Asurmen) to sit on objectives and put out a fair amount of shots at 21” range.
It then gives me the tough Wraithlord platforms, happily using the re-rolls and ignoring cover with the Starcannons.
Finally, the Conclave. I really want to build a list around it, but it is also hard to justify it when 3 CHEs or 3 Fire Prisms are cheaper (124 points in the case of the Prisms). Or even 9 Shining Spears and 2 bare bones Serpents. I feel like, when it works even reasonably well, it will dominate games, it is just those times when it doesn’t. I mean, who doesn’t want a 3+, 3++, 5+++, re-rolling all shooting attacks, hitting on 2’s in melee, re-rolling 1’s, wounding on 2’s, re-rolling 1’s, -2 to hit vs shooting tank of a unit that can get +2 to charge on the turn it deep strikes? All eggs, in the one massive bullet magnet basket.
I've been looking at the skyrunner council, and I think one of the most important things will be getting your distribution of psychic powers correct. A couple of key points:
-If you fail to cast your key powers you lose. -The Seer Council strat requires the Warlock unit and Farseer to be the same Craftworld. -The new Runes of Fortune powers are Craftworld specific.
Bacause of this, I think you need the most important buffs to the Conclave to be on the Conclave itself, and on the Farseer of the same Craftworld, so that they can use the Seer Council strat. Protect is clearly the most important spell, and I would say quicken is next- you cannot afford to fail Quicken on a turn in which you plan around it (which you should be doing in order to stay out of DtW range). The Farseer needs to have Fortune, as that is another essential buff, but here was the lightbulb moment for me: give that Farseer Focus Will.
So the plan for the psychic phase is;
-Play "Seer Council" on the Conclave and Farseer of the Same Craftworld. -That Farseer casts Focus Will on the Conclave, then Fortune. - Use "Unparralleled Mastery" to cast the Farseers 3rd power. -The conclave then casts Protect, Jinx, and Quicken on a +3 (100% chance with Children of Prophecy).
Ignoring DtW, this gives the following odds of succesfully casting powers:
Now maybe I'm being a bit too cautious, but I wouldn't trust your lone Warlock Skyrunner to carry the Conclaves Focus Will. He's a lot squishier than the Farseer (could die to perils!), doesn't get the free reroll, and shouldn't be benefiting from the Seer Council Strat.
I also don't think the Sky Sword and Witch strike combo is a good idea. That Farseer is too important to be going near combat, and the Conclave should be using "Nimble Escape" after they attack to also be as far from the enemy as they can get. The Farseer needs to be chilling in the spot you plan to Nimble Escape to.
You need Ghostwalk on a psyker from the same Craftworld as the Conclave. Sometimes you will go second and there won't be anywhere safe to deploy the Conclave. Give it to the Warlock Skyrunner from the same detachment, or the Conclave itself.
Finally I think Masters of Concealment might be necessary as the second trait. Even with Protect, a Conclave only has a 3+ Sv, MoC takes you to 2+ outside of 12", which you should be aiming for using Nimble Escape.
I must have missed the Runes of Fortune powers being Craftworld linked… hrm. It’ll require some more thought, but first instincts are to go with Focus Will on the Conclave and give up the D6 smite, and then Ghost Walk/Quicken on the Warlock Skyrunner. This then puts Conceal on the other Warlock Skyrunner alongside any other power I want from the Runes of Fortune.
Witch Strike is an interesting idea to me, when paired with the relic sword. 2 attacks hitting on 2’s, wounding on 2’s and doing 5 damage a pop is extremely nice when paired with Jinx. The only downside is it is just 2 attacks, needs Jinx, and, for the required swap around it means I’ll have to give it up or give up Jinx.
As for combat ranges, I’m leaning more towards Savage Blades rather than Concealment, simply because I expect to be putting the Conclave into deep strike in a fair number of games. This will then require me to get up close with the Farseer in order to use the Seer Council strat, and to take advantage of Runes of Witnessing and Forewarned. If I do this, then the Farseer will likely be within 10-12” of parts of my opponents’ army (16” at max), which will cancel out the trait. There are also numerous things in the meta that ignore cover atm.
If I’m playing someone with limited ignore LoS firepower and low mobility, then I’d probably start them on the table and risk going second, but beyond that I’d be cautious of getting hit before I can buff up.
Order would be –
Seer Council strat > Focus Will on the Conclave > Protect Conclave > Enhance Conclave > Jinx > Doom > Guide Conclave > Conceal Conclave > Ghostwalk/Quicken Conclave.
I’ll likely swap out the Skysword for the Phoenix Gem. Would likely run the Ambush of Blades WL trait as well, due to often being in close and giving the Conclave’s attacks -1ap on a 5+ to hit is incredibly useful.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hrm, might be worth changing the Expert Crafters on the Dire Avengers Battalion to Masterful Shots as well, for the ignores cover - that or move the Windriders into the Spearhead
It's just occurred to me that you can't use Nimble Escape after deepstriking. That actually takes the shine off quite a lot for me because, as you say, you will be deepstriking quite often, and Nimble Escape is kind of the whole point of the Windrider Host.
Ambush of Blades never occurred to me (forgot it existed) and combos really well with Enhance, and Supreme Disdain. Nice!
I'm still not sold on Savage blades, although I see your point if you're deepstriking and can't Nimble Escape away, Hail of Doom or +1 to charge might be good options too.
Something I've seen repeated a lot is that units that get up close don't benefit from MoC or Alaitoc, which would be true if the board was only 2' wide, but often you can be close to one part of the enemies army but more than 12" from the rest.
As nice as the D6 Smite is on the Conclave I think you'd be safer going with Ghostwalk. Ambush of Blades and Enhance don't do anything if you fail that 9" charge, so the +3 to cast will be important.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You could put the Windriders in the Windrider Host Detachment to use the eye wateringly expensive Tempest of Blades strat to maximum effect.
Yeh, that interaction with deepstriking is a bit tough, but I feel like on the deepstrike charge turn I should be ok as I can get the Farseer into charge position alongside the Conclave so it’ll provide a bit of protection the following turn. I’ll prob still spend the CP on the Windrider Host, as, it’ll still provide great utility options on all the other turns.
Hail of Doom is interesting, especially if I drop Tempest of Blades as well. This might be possible in games where I deepstrike the Conclave as I’ll be saving the 2CP I’d otherwise have spent on Nimble Escape. I’m now even more tempted to drop Expert Crafters from the 2nd Battalion to put in Hail of Doom.
Not fussed about replacing D6 smite with Ghostwalk. The way I see it, I’ll either be casting Ghostwalk or Quicken on the Conclave and likely won’t ever need both, so it makes sense to put both powers on the same unit. It could work as a fall back option, but, I’ll already be casting Protect, Jinx and Enhance from the Conclave every turn anyway, so I won’t have the option to cast Ghostwalk unless I don’t cast Enhance.
Fair point on the MoC and Alaitoc thing. I guess I’m more ingrained to think about gunline castles and SM flyers being able to go wherever they need, rather than all the other armies out there that will be more spread out.
7+ charge, 6+ charge. Again, I think it comes down to what I think I’m going to have to give up to benefit from it. I feel like, over the course of an event etc, that Hail of Doom will be more beneficial than the +1 to charge, which might not even be from deepstrike.
Kdash wrote: Yeh, that interaction with deepstriking is a bit tough, but I feel like on the deepstrike charge turn I should be ok as I can get the Farseer into charge position alongside the Conclave so it’ll provide a bit of protection the following turn. I’ll prob still spend the CP on the Windrider Host, as, it’ll still provide great utility options on all the other turns.
Hail of Doom is interesting, especially if I drop Tempest of Blades as well. This might be possible in games where I deepstrike the Conclave as I’ll be saving the 2CP I’d otherwise have spent on Nimble Escape. I’m now even more tempted to drop Expert Crafters from the 2nd Battalion to put in Hail of Doom.
Not fussed about replacing D6 smite with Ghostwalk. The way I see it, I’ll either be casting Ghostwalk or Quicken on the Conclave and likely won’t ever need both, so it makes sense to put both powers on the same unit. It could work as a fall back option, but, I’ll already be casting Protect, Jinx and Enhance from the Conclave every turn anyway, so I won’t have the option to cast Ghostwalk unless I don’t cast Enhance.
Fair point on the MoC and Alaitoc thing. I guess I’m more ingrained to think about gunline castles and SM flyers being able to go wherever they need, rather than all the other armies out there that will be more spread out.
7+ charge, 6+ charge. Again, I think it comes down to what I think I’m going to have to give up to benefit from it. I feel like, over the course of an event etc, that Hail of Doom will be more beneficial than the +1 to charge, which might not even be from deepstrike.
Thanks for talking this out with me btw!
Don't mention it! I'm finding it very useful.
I think I've been taking a more conservative approach to designing a Conclave list than you are. I've been focusing on getting the best possible chance of casting the defensive and movement powers, and treating anything that boosts damage as a nice extra. Ambush of Blades does make it very tempting to upgrade Enhance to one of the "must cast" powers though. Combined with Jinx, and Supreme Disdain I make it out to be ~21 wounds to a knight.
Absolutely still take the Windrider Host!
I would agree that +1 charge is a bit dull as a trait, Hail of Doom is much more exciting. Combining it with Tempest of Blades for AP-2 Shuricats would give marines a taste of their own medicine.
You could take Ghostwalk on the Conclave as well as on the lone Skyrunner. Most of the time you will cast Protect, Jinx and Enhance with the Conclave, then Ghostwalk with the Skyrunner. You're not going to miss Smite, but on the odd time when you absolutely HAVE to make that charge, you might want the +3 to cast as an option. Especially against an opponent that can Deny and knows they need to stop Ghostwalk.
I don't have strong opinions on the rest of your list, as I've never tried the 4++ Dire avenger swarm. Only a madman would experiment with that and a Conclave at the same time
You could look at what a Brigade gets you though (plus a Supreme Command for the Conclave), you would probably get the same Wraithlords plus a horde of T3 Aspect Warriors with a couple of extra CP.
Kdash wrote: Yeh, that interaction with deepstriking is a bit tough, but I feel like on the deepstrike charge turn I should be ok as I can get the Farseer into charge position alongside the Conclave so it’ll provide a bit of protection the following turn. I’ll prob still spend the CP on the Windrider Host, as, it’ll still provide great utility options on all the other turns.
Hail of Doom is interesting, especially if I drop Tempest of Blades as well. This might be possible in games where I deepstrike the Conclave as I’ll be saving the 2CP I’d otherwise have spent on Nimble Escape. I’m now even more tempted to drop Expert Crafters from the 2nd Battalion to put in Hail of Doom.
Not fussed about replacing D6 smite with Ghostwalk. The way I see it, I’ll either be casting Ghostwalk or Quicken on the Conclave and likely won’t ever need both, so it makes sense to put both powers on the same unit. It could work as a fall back option, but, I’ll already be casting Protect, Jinx and Enhance from the Conclave every turn anyway, so I won’t have the option to cast Ghostwalk unless I don’t cast Enhance.
Fair point on the MoC and Alaitoc thing. I guess I’m more ingrained to think about gunline castles and SM flyers being able to go wherever they need, rather than all the other armies out there that will be more spread out.
7+ charge, 6+ charge. Again, I think it comes down to what I think I’m going to have to give up to benefit from it. I feel like, over the course of an event etc, that Hail of Doom will be more beneficial than the +1 to charge, which might not even be from deepstrike.
Thanks for talking this out with me btw!
Don't mention it! I'm finding it very useful.
I think I've been taking a more conservative approach to designing a Conclave list than you are. I've been focusing on getting the best possible chance of casting the defensive and movement powers, and treating anything that boosts damage as a nice extra. Ambush of Blades does make it very tempting to upgrade Enhance to one of the "must cast" powers though. Combined with Jinx, and Supreme Disdain I make it out to be ~21 wounds to a knight.
Absolutely still take the Windrider Host!
I would agree that +1 charge is a bit dull as a trait, Hail of Doom is much more exciting. Combining it with Tempest of Blades for AP-2 Shuricats would give marines a taste of their own medicine.
You could take Ghostwalk on the Conclave as well as on the lone Skyrunner. Most of the time you will cast Protect, Jinx and Enhance with the Conclave, then Ghostwalk with the Skyrunner. You're not going to miss Smite, but on the odd time when you absolutely HAVE to make that charge, you might want the +3 to cast as an option. Especially against an opponent that can Deny and knows they need to stop Ghostwalk.
I don't have strong opinions on the rest of your list, as I've never tried the 4++ Dire avenger swarm. Only a madman would experiment with that and a Conclave at the same time
You could look at what a Brigade gets you though (plus a Supreme Command for the Conclave), you would probably get the same Wraithlords plus a horde of T3 Aspect Warriors with a couple of extra CP.
Well, the Dire Avengers blob came more from needing the extra CP, so needing troops, and then picking Asurmen simply because I don’t really need another Farseer, Warlock maybe and pretty much don’t need an Autarch due to all the re-rolls I’m going to be getting anyway (that and with at least 2 different sets of Craftworld traits I’d have to juggle HQs around in order to get the re-rolls on the right units). I could drop it all for another set of 3 Storm Guardians + a HQ and something for 238 points, but, I’m not that convinced I’d be able to find something as worthwhile as the DA troop firepower.
Maybe 3 units of Storm Guardians (flood the board with them), a Wraithseer with D-Cannon, a 3rd Support Weapon Platform, a unit of 6 Windriders and a unit of 5. This leaves 12 points to give the 1st Battalion Farseer and Warlock Spears. I’d probably give this Battalion Master of Concealment (in the vain hope they might be ignored whilst the sit on objectives ) and either Children of Prophecy or Webway Warriors to potentially put all 3 big jetbike units in deepstrike for 3CP.
I’m just worried that relying on hidden Storm Guardians is going to see me just shot off objectives.
Maybe i am trying too much with the DA as well... I do tend to go for a "try everything all at once" approach far too often.
Here's a cheap Mechanized brigade I've been looking at using to provide CP for my Conclave Supreme Command:
Master Crafters + Masters of Concealment
Jetseer
Jetlock
Warlock
5x Rangers
5x Rangers
5x Rangers
5x Dire Avengers, Ex, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire
5x Dire Avengers, Ex, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire
5x Dire Avengers, Ex, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire
At 115 PTS for a falcon with starcannon and cats is a steal, yes it's not as tough as a serpent but a twin bright lance serpent is 157 PTS and has less firepower so I know which one I prefer.
kingheff wrote: At 115 PTS for a falcon with starcannon and cats is a steal, yes it's not as tough as a serpent but a twin bright lance serpent is 157 PTS and has less firepower so I know which one I prefer.
I'd splurge the extra 5 points for the CTM to keep the on the bounce accuracy, but its solidly in Razorback territory now. I may finally get back to finishing my grav tank list.
kingheff wrote: At 115 PTS for a falcon with starcannon and cats is a steal, yes it's not as tough as a serpent but a twin bright lance serpent is 157 PTS and has less firepower so I know which one I prefer.
Yeah not saying the falcon doesn't look solid now. I think falcon with ctm looks sexy right now.
I think I prefer the survivability, MW output and can hold capacity. I'll probably be running twin AML on my next outing.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Here's a cheap Mechanized brigade I've been looking at using to provide CP for my Conclave Supreme Command:
Master Crafters + Masters of Concealment
Jetseer
Jetlock
Warlock
5x Rangers
5x Rangers
5x Rangers
5x Dire Avengers, Ex, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire
5x Dire Avengers, Ex, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire
5x Dire Avengers, Ex, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire
It's fast, has decent firepower, and I don't need to deploy any squishy elves on the board if i don't want to.
I really like there this is going. The decision (for me) is to add a Spearhead or Airwing. Nightspinners are very useful (I enjoyed running 3 this past weekend at a GT). But, CHE and Hemlocks are still very good.
Another question option I have been looking at is 3 vypers with shuri cannons and twin shuri underbelly. For 136 with the CA drops, they can move 20" to get into your opponents face, throw out a decent amount of shots (stacks well with Hail of Doom) and then charge stuff to tie up some shooting. Could be really useful in my opinion. If your opponent doesn't really deal with them or ignores them because they don't do too much damage, you still have a really speedy unit to run around getting objectives.
Autarch Skyrunner, Laser Lance, -1 to be hit relic, +1W and 6+++ WL Trait Farseer, Doom, Executioner, Smite Warlock, Focus Will, Protect/Jinx
Wave Serpent, CTM, Twin Scatter Laser, Chin Cannon -5x Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire -5x Fire Dragons, Exarch, Swiftstep
Wave Serpent, CTM, Twin Scatter Laser, Chin Cannon -5x Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire -5x Fire Dragons, Exarch, Swiftstep
Wave Serpent, CTM, Twin Scatter Laser, Chin Cannon -5x Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire -3x Dark Reapers, Exarch, AML,Rapid Shot
Wave Serpent, CTM, Twin Scatter Laser, Chin Cannon -5x Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2x Cats, Shredding Fire -3x Dark Reapers, Exarch, AML, Rapid Shot -3x Dark Reapers, Exarch, AML, Rapid Shot
Fire Prism Fire Prism Fire Prism
I had two "games" but neither were much fun. I won both by getting 1st turn and using the Phantasm stratagem. With an army of 7 grav tanks you can deploy one in the middle of the deployment zone, and 3 on each flank. Then after the opponent deploys use Phantasm to move 3 tanks from one flank to the other. Going first and getting to counter deploy is harsh. On top of pulling a refused flank, Phantasm gives the ability to make sure some units are exactly where they need to be. You can move one of the Prisms to have LoS to a juicy target then link all 3, or put a Fire Dragon Serpent directly opposite a tank, then run out 17" and melt it. In both games I inflicted tons of damage on the first turn, whilst positioning to prevent any significant counter attack. My opponents lists were kind of friendly and I felt a bit bad. I'm still undecided on how good the list actually is.
Currently, when combined with CA2019, Psychic Awakening, and the Marine popularity, Craftworld vehicles are very good. So many vehicles synch very well with Expert Crafters and Masters of Concealment or the ignore cover trait (I forget the name).
Phantasm is an extremely good ability that helps me mitigate first turn massed shooting. I think your best solution is to scale the efficiency of your list to your local game scene so all can have a fun game. I just played 4 out of 5 tourney gfames against dialed Marine lists, so I have to adjust accordingly.
With that said, I have a 3 round locall event using ITC and they advised that all books are now valid. I had to tweak my list from the GT I attended last weekend and despite the CHE points increase, I see no reason to not take them.
Ok I added categories for all Craftworld traits. I could list units that have the keywords mentioned in these traits too later. It's handy to know the Support Weapons have GUARDIAN keyword but War Walkers do not for example
Yeah, it's a shame windriders and war walkers don't have the guardian keyword despite having guardian pilots.
So I'm guessing technically you could put the celestial shield strat on support weapons? Not sure you'd ever want to but I guess it's an option.
So as a question to someone coming in new to Eldar:
Are the Ghostaxe/Forceshields option for Wraithblades worth the cost? The 4++ is quite nice, and the extra AP and damage is also nice, but that -1 to Hit seems unfortunate (though it seems like it can be mitigated with some Psychic powers).
Got to play in a local tourney, War for Tots. This is the 10th year of the event where we raise money for Toys for Tots. This year, we provided $1700 from 24 players.
They used all the new stuff, so CA2019 points and updated Blood Angels were the biggest inclusions. Adjusting my list from the previous weekend GT, I went in to play against the Marine meta. Once Marines came out, the number of large model count armies greatly diminished, so I cannot be sure how my list performs against them.
Game 1 vs Tau. I literally have not played Tau in 8th edition. Add in triple Riptide and 30 drones and I now appreciate the firepower that army truly has. It simply doesn't degrade due to the drones. Against my list, he was not overly challenged and I got shot off the board.
Game 2 against Imperial Fists (same opponent and list from previous weekend). I was more prepared this time and understood the threat ranges. Combined with Hammer and Anvil deployment, he was tabled on turn 4. One thing of interest was utilizing Mind War from the Farseer with a Hemlock within 12" of the target. Another Mortal Wound generator in the list to use in a pinch.
Game 3 against Dark Angels. Sadly, they are in such a need receive a rules update. We had Dawn of War deployment and my opponent took first turn and destroyed a Nightspinner. My turn one killed a Devastator squad, 2 Predators, and a flier, ultimately resulting in tabling the Dark Angels by turn 4.
This event used ITC missions, but terrain was much more varied than some would expect. They are more themed rather than tourney style. This had minimal impact on my list.
I went last in every game and lost one Nightspinner in the first turn out of all three games. Understanding threat range and use of Phantasm is critical.
Know opposing armies. I don't own all the books and it gets to be a challenge to sit and read/watch videos on other armies. This was one factor contributing to my loss against Tau.
Craftworld Traits are very fun and useful. Expert Crafters is my auto take. Masterful Shots was useful, but I am on the fence if it is mandatory.
Hornet price adjustment and Hornet Pulse Lasers are extremely useful in this Marine meta. Work to maximize the 48" range the Hornet has to offset its fragile nature.
Regarding ITC, secondaries have become fairly clear as to what works. Butcher's Bill, Gangbusters, Recon, Old School, Big Game Hunter are the consistent points maker for my army.
Small model count army. I had 13 models again in my list and my games went about 1.5 hours, win or lose. This gives me time to relax and not hurt so much by the end of the day.
Lack of Command Points. Phantasm, Forewarning, and Lightning Fast Reflexes stratagem are my typical usages and I am out by turn two. I'd like to have more, but this is the concession to the list at the moment.Im not at the point yet with this army that I want more CP.
11 vehicles crowds the deployment zone, especially ensuring that no part of the model hangs off the table.
Got to play in a local tourney, War for Tots. This is the 10th year of the event where we raise money for Toys for Tots. This year, we provided $1700 from 24 players.
They used all the new stuff, so CA2019 points and updated Blood Angels were the biggest inclusions. Adjusting my list from the previous weekend GT, I went in to play against the Marine meta. Once Marines came out, the number of large model count armies greatly diminished, so I cannot be sure how my list performs against them.
Game 1 vs Tau. I literally have not played Tau in 8th edition. Add in triple Riptide and 30 drones and I now appreciate the firepower that army truly has. It simply doesn't degrade due to the drones. Against my list, he was not overly challenged and I got shot off the board.
Game 2 against Imperial Fists (same opponent and list from previous weekend). I was more prepared this time and understood the threat ranges. Combined with Hammer and Anvil deployment, he was tabled on turn 4. One thing of interest was utilizing Mind War with a Hemlock within 12" of the target. Another Mortal Wound generator in the list to use in a pinch.
Game 3 against Dark Angels. Sadly, they are in such a need receive a rules update. We had Dawn of War deployment and my opponent took first turn and destroyed a Nightspinner. My turn one killed a Devastator squad, 2 Predators, and a flier, ultimately resulting in tabling the Dark Angels by turn 4.
This event used ITC missions, but terrain was much more varied than some would expect. They are more themed rather than tourney style. This had minimal impact on my list.
I went last in every game and lost one Nightspinner in the first turn out of all three games. Understanding threat range and use of Phantasm is critical.
Know opposing armies. I don't own all the books and it gets to be a challenge to sit and read/watch videos on other armies. This was one factor contributing to my loss against Tau.
Craftworld Traits are very fun and useful. Expert Crafters is my auto take. Masterful Shots was useful, but I am on the fence if it is mandatory.
Hornet price adjustment and Hornet Pulse Lasers are extremely useful in this Marine meta. Work to maximize the 48" range the Hornet has to offset its fragile nature.
Regarding ITC, secondaries have become fairly clear as to what works. Butcher's Bill, Gangbusters, Recon, Old School, Big Game Hunter are the consistent points maker for my army.
Small model count army. I had 13 models again in my list and my games went about 1.5 hours, win or lose. This gives me time to relax and not hurt so much by the end of the day.
Lack of Command Points. Phantasm, Forewarning, and Lightning Fast Reflexes stratagem are my typical usages and I am out by turn two. I'd like to have more, but this is the concession to the list at the moment.Im not at the point yet with this army that I want more CP.
11 vehicles crowds the deployment zone, especially ensuring that no part of the model hangs off the table.
Wow thank you very much for the write up! I'm watching right now this ITC battle report that uses that Tau list you might find it interesting and or useful
I was looking into a brigade using a bunch of the psychic awakening boxes mainly cause they are cheap.
Custom craftworld: masters of concealment and expert crafters
Brigade
HQ:
Asurmen
Jain Zar
Warlock
- protect
- faolchu's wing
Troops:
6 x 5 Dire Avengers
- twin catapults
- shredding fire
Elites:
3 x 5 Howling Banshees
- executioners
- piercing strike
Fast Attack:
3 x 1 Vypers
- starcannons
- shuriken catapults
Heavy Support:
3 x 1 Falcons
- eldar missile launcher
- shuriken catapults
Dedicated Transport:
3 x 1 Waveserpents
- shuriken cannons
- shuriken catapults
Ulthwe
Supreme Command
Eldrad
- warlord
- guide, doom, will of asuryan
Warlock
- protect
Warlock
- protect
2000/2000 points (120 cheaper than before ca). 15 CP
What do you guys think?
Why protect on all three Warlocks? Quicken on one maybe. Will of Asuryan.... Take basically any other power. Also make use of extra powers in PA for Warlocks to replace Destructor.
I would give Wave Serpents a Starcannons and replace AML on Falcons with Star cannons as well if you can
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jin wrote: So as a question to someone coming in new to Eldar:
Are the Ghostaxe/Forceshields option for Wraithblades worth the cost? The 4++ is quite nice, and the extra AP and damage is also nice, but that -1 to Hit seems unfortunate (though it seems like it can be mitigated with some Psychic powers).
Well they are same cost as sword version now. If you want tougher less attacks but higher damage go axes, if you want more attacks go swords. If you are using psychic buffs on Wraithblades with axes I would prioritise Protect rather than Enhance, I think you are referring to, for that sweet 2+/3++. If you use a Spiritseer for this you can also make use of the Spiritseer buff in close combat
Jin wrote: So as a question to someone coming in new to Eldar:
Are the Ghostaxe/Forceshields option for Wraithblades worth the cost? The 4++ is quite nice, and the extra AP and damage is also nice, but that -1 to Hit seems unfortunate (though it seems like it can be mitigated with some Psychic powers).
I think they're quite good. A spiritseer with Protect provides sufficient buffs, but you can obviously go to town by taking a Wraith Host detachment (from the Vigilus book) or by playing Iyanden and using their special relic and stratagem. I usually play my custom craftworld, but Iyanden is quite good for wraithblades even though the craftworld trait does nothing for them.
I usually take a big unit (8 to 10) and move them up the board as quickly as possible. Sometimes I screen the wraithblades with Guardians or other disposable troops if the enemy has a powerful, fast melee threat. Wraithblades are much better if they get the charge; against most units this is overkill, but against some it is essential to have the extra attacks. Try to have another melee unit hanging around, like wraithblades with swords or a wraithlord, to come in and clear them off in case they get charged and bogged down.
If you take them you shouldn't just slot them into a random list. They're expensive and they need some support, so you really need to build your army around them.
I found that specialist detatchemnt for the invuln on wraithguard or blades is bit of a trap. You are looking at 3CP to give something 4++ for a turn.. That something is either going to be a big blob of wraith guard.. or a big blob of sword wraith blades.
Having tried it a couple times, I haven't found it worth it trying to build around the combo.
But 1 cp for detatchement and then 1 CP for extra atatcks?
Yeah that's can be sexy. Chuck in enhance and supreme disdin and blob of swords can really pump out an fair bit of Str 5 -3 attacks. 4 attacks hitting on 2's and generating extra attacks on 5's. With enhance.
However being essentially power sword damage 1 is very mediocre. They are just not killy enough for their points IMO.
I think axes, with the point drop are superior now to the blades.
Im liking Mind War + mindshock pod really good now to make sure those SM captains die.
Axes, I think, have always been superior to the swords. A big unit of axes is something you can build your list around, as they can tank and fight reasonably well against a wide range of opponents.
Swords are more niche, but if you're already investing in Spirit Host stuff to buff your axes then swords aren't a bad way to get more mileage out of those buffs. They're better in a small unit, either in a Wave Serpent or on foot supporting the axes.
Korlandril wrote: Ok I added categories for all Craftworld traits. I could list units that have the keywords mentioned in these traits too later. It's handy to know the Support Weapons have GUARDIAN keyword but War Walkers do not for example
Children of Khaine – Crimson Hunter, Crimson Hunter Exarch, Dark Reapers, Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons, Howling Banshees, Shadow Spectres, Shining Spears, Striking Scorpions, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders.
Children of Morei-heg – All Non-Single Model Units.
Children of the Open Skies – Swooping Hawks, Autarch With Wings, Characters with Faolchu’s Wing, Vypers, Wasp Assault Vehicle, Falcon, Fire Prism, Night Spinner, Wave Serpent, Scorpion, Cobra, Lynx (In normal mode), Shadow Spectres, Warp Hunters.
Children of Prophecy – Farseer, Farseer Skyrunner, Warlock, Warlock Skyrunner, Warlock Conclave, Warlock Skyrunner Conclave, Spiritseer, Bonesinger, Wraithseer, Hemlock Wraithfighter.
Diviners of Fate – Everything Except Named Characters.
Expert Crafters - Everything Except Named Characters.
Grim - All Non-Single Model Units.
Hail of Doom – All Models With Access to Shuriken Weapons, Except Named Characters.
Headstrong - Everything Except Named Characters.
Hunters of Ancient Relics - Everything Except Named Characters.
Martial Citizenry- Guardian Defenders, Storm Guardians, Support Weapons.
Masterful Shots - Everything Except Named Characters.
Masters of Concealment - Everything Except Named Characters.
Mobile Fighters - Everything Except Named Characters – Requires Transports.
Savage Blades - Everything Except Named Characters.
Strike and Fade - Everything Except Named Characters.
Students of Vaul – Falcon, Fire Prism, Night Spinner, Vyper, Lynx, Warp Hunter, Wasp Assault Walker, War Walkers, Crimson Hunter, Crimson Hunter Exarch, Hemlock Wraithfighter, Phoenix, Nightwing, Cobra, Scorpion, Vampire Hunter, Vampire Raider, Wave Serpent, Hornets, Support Weapons.
Superior Shuriken - All Models With Access to Shuriken Weapons, Except Named Characters.
Vengeful Blades - Everything Except Named Characters – Requires Vs Chaos.
Warding Runes – Everything Except Named Characters.
Webway Warriors – Everything.
Wrath of the Dead – Wraithblades, Wraithguard, Wraithlord, Wraithseer, Wraithknight, Hemlock Wraithfighter, Skathach Wraithknight.
Axes are now the clear winner, but weren't always, as Saber suggests. Blades kill nearly twice as many 1w targets, and can be buffed to resemble the axe defensive profile, at a cost. Now though, with the hefty points drop, there's not much point to them (which is why I'm not very happy with it). Axes still need the detachment, imo, to unlock 4 attacks per wraith.
Korlandril wrote: Ok I added categories for all Craftworld traits. I could list units that have the keywords mentioned in these traits too later. It's handy to know the Support Weapons have GUARDIAN keyword but War Walkers do not for example
Spoiler:
Children of Khaine – Crimson Hunter, Crimson Hunter Exarch, Dark Reapers, Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons, Howling Banshees, Shadow Spectres, Shining Spears, Striking Scorpions, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders.
Children of Morei-heg – All Non-Single Model Units.
Children of the Open Skies – Swooping Hawks, Autarch With Wings, Characters with Faolchu’s Wing, Vypers, Wasp Assault Vehicle, Falcon, Fire Prism, Night Spinner, Wave Serpent, Scorpion, Cobra, Lynx (In normal mode), Shadow Spectres, Warp Hunters.
Children of Prophecy – Farseer, Farseer Skyrunner, Warlock, Warlock Skyrunner, Warlock Conclave, Warlock Skyrunner Conclave, Spiritseer, Bonesinger, Wraithseer, Hemlock Wraithfighter.
Diviners of Fate – Everything Except Named Characters.
Expert Crafters - Everything Except Named Characters.
Grim - All Non-Single Model Units.
Hail of Doom – All Models With Access to Shuriken Weapons, Except Named Characters.
Headstrong - Everything Except Named Characters.
Hunters of Ancient Relics - Everything Except Named Characters.
Martial Citizenry- Guardian Defenders, Storm Guardians, Support Weapons.
Masterful Shots - Everything Except Named Characters.
Masters of Concealment - Everything Except Named Characters.
Mobile Fighters - Everything Except Named Characters – Requires Transports.
Savage Blades - Everything Except Named Characters.
Strike and Fade - Everything Except Named Characters.
Students of Vaul – Falcon, Fire Prism, Night Spinner, Vyper, Lynx, Warp Hunter, Wasp Assault Walker, War Walkers, Crimson Hunter, Crimson Hunter Exarch, Hemlock Wraithfighter, Phoenix, Nightwing, Cobra, Scorpion, Vampire Hunter, Vampire Raider, Wave Serpent, Hornets, Support Weapons.
Superior Shuriken - All Models With Access to Shuriken Weapons, Except Named Characters.
Vengeful Blades - Everything Except Named Characters – Requires Vs Chaos.
Warding Runes – Everything Except Named Characters.
Webway Warriors – Everything.
Wrath of the Dead – Wraithblades, Wraithguard, Wraithlord, Wraithseer, Wraithknight, Hemlock Wraithfighter, Skathach Wraithknight.
Wow thank you very much. One thing I might change when I add to OP this evening is the "except named characters" because that follows already as they don't have the custom Craftworld keyword
Korlandril wrote: Ok I added categories for all Craftworld traits. I could list units that have the keywords mentioned in these traits too later. It's handy to know the Support Weapons have GUARDIAN keyword but War Walkers do not for example
Spoiler:
Children of Khaine – Crimson Hunter, Crimson Hunter Exarch, Dark Reapers, Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons, Howling Banshees, Shadow Spectres, Shining Spears, Striking Scorpions, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders.
Children of Morei-heg – All Non-Single Model Units.
Children of the Open Skies – Swooping Hawks, Autarch With Wings, Characters with Faolchu’s Wing, Vypers, Wasp Assault Vehicle, Falcon, Fire Prism, Night Spinner, Wave Serpent, Scorpion, Cobra, Lynx (In normal mode), Shadow Spectres, Warp Hunters.
Children of Prophecy – Farseer, Farseer Skyrunner, Warlock, Warlock Skyrunner, Warlock Conclave, Warlock Skyrunner Conclave, Spiritseer, Bonesinger, Wraithseer, Hemlock Wraithfighter.
Diviners of Fate – Everything Except Named Characters.
Expert Crafters - Everything Except Named Characters.
Grim - All Non-Single Model Units.
Hail of Doom – All Models With Access to Shuriken Weapons, Except Named Characters.
Headstrong - Everything Except Named Characters.
Hunters of Ancient Relics - Everything Except Named Characters.
Martial Citizenry- Guardian Defenders, Storm Guardians, Support Weapons.
Masterful Shots - Everything Except Named Characters.
Masters of Concealment - Everything Except Named Characters.
Mobile Fighters - Everything Except Named Characters – Requires Transports.
Savage Blades - Everything Except Named Characters.
Strike and Fade - Everything Except Named Characters.
Students of Vaul – Falcon, Fire Prism, Night Spinner, Vyper, Lynx, Warp Hunter, Wasp Assault Walker, War Walkers, Crimson Hunter, Crimson Hunter Exarch, Hemlock Wraithfighter, Phoenix, Nightwing, Cobra, Scorpion, Vampire Hunter, Vampire Raider, Wave Serpent, Hornets, Support Weapons.
Superior Shuriken - All Models With Access to Shuriken Weapons, Except Named Characters.
Vengeful Blades - Everything Except Named Characters – Requires Vs Chaos.
Warding Runes – Everything Except Named Characters.
Webway Warriors – Everything.
Wrath of the Dead – Wraithblades, Wraithguard, Wraithlord, Wraithseer, Wraithknight, Hemlock Wraithfighter, Skathach Wraithknight.
Wow thank you very much. One thing I might change when I add to OP this evening is the "except named characters" because that follows already as they don't have the custom Craftworld keyword
NP and fine with me! I added it in there just as a "just in case". For example, newer Craftworlds users might not be aware that Phoenix Lords are unable to benefit from the traits.
grouchoben wrote: Axes are now the clear winner, but weren't always, as Saber suggests. Blades kill nearly twice as many 1w targets, and can be buffed to resemble the axe defensive profile, at a cost. Now though, with the hefty points drop, there's not much point to them (which is why I'm not very happy with it). Axes still need the detachment, imo, to unlock 4 attacks per wraith.
Totaly agree. The minus 1 really needs enhance and supreme disdain doesn't seem overly worth it. But at 1 CP its not too bad
I think the extra point of strength means you wounding T7 on 4s instead of 5's which is also not insignifact as with D3 damage it means they double up as vehicle killers. I think sword blades needed to come down in points also by about 5 points in order to give them a nieche. Youre essentialy paying premium for power sword attacks.
I'm playing around with ideas for axes.. Not sure which craftworld would be best. I'm consideing:
1.3x MSU headstrong + relic hunters idea ito DS - in and shift stuff of objectives and really lock them down. 2. Ulthwe vanguard - the FNP + protect would really make them a mean shield wall unit. With eldrad increase this kind of sucks. 3. Master of concealment + Wrath of the dead 4. couple units of 6 - Headstrong + Children of morai heg - In theory once you loose 3 models you get to mitigate the -1 to hit. But I actualy think chidlren of morai heg would work better with wraithguard as it does not specifiy CC attacks. So MSU wraithguard units hitting on 2s sounds aight.
Trouble is im finding traits that suit wraiths dont really work for larger detatchements. Need those battalions for dem CPs
I've been tinkering with a double battalion list with 40 dire avengers, four lots of five in serpents and two of ten in the webway. With the bladestorm exarch power, an autarch, the reroll ones to wound strat on the farseer and hail of doom they're incredibly dangerous.
They output a total of 96 shots, generating 107 hits!
Given optimal conditions they put 17 wounds on a knight, 27 wounds on the T7 3+ tank chassis, 38 wounds on marine equivalents and 69 wounds on guard equivalents. With doom and jinx on a non rotated ion shield knight they do 27 wounds.
Obviously you'd be very lucky to get everything in the range of the buffs and the enemy but I think the firepower is still very impressive and with asurman giving them a 4++ they make excellent troops, not the cheapest but very capable.
kingheff wrote: I've been tinkering with a double battalion list with 40 dire avengers, four lots of five in serpents and two of ten in the webway. With the bladestorm exarch power, an autarch, the reroll ones to wound strat on the farseer and hail of doom they're incredibly dangerous.
They output a total of 96 shots, generating 107 hits!
Given optimal conditions they put 17 wounds on a knight, 27 wounds on the T7 3+ tank chassis, 38 wounds on marine equivalents and 69 wounds on guard equivalents. With doom and jinx on a non rotated ion shield knight they do 27 wounds.
Obviously you'd be very lucky to get everything in the range of the buffs and the enemy but I think the firepower is still very impressive and with asurman giving them a 4++ they make excellent troops, not the cheapest but very capable.
Yeah but thats some 600 pts minimum.. An ulthwe blob of guardians + discipline black guardians + and doom does something very similiar but cheaper.
celestial shield will give them a 4++ 6+++ for 1 CP.
I think DA are tricky... The exarch powers have definitly pumped their viability on their own merit.
But I think even at 150pts I think Asurmen is bit of a trap. Im struggling to justiy taking him strangely enough.. The DA just seem good enough on their own.
I have been playing around on battle scribe with an ulthwe battalion of 30 DA + asurmen and eldrad as well 2x batalions of 5 msuDAs. Better shurikens and expert crafters.
All of which has the problem of no re-rolls unless you sink more points in the form of an autarch...
I think bieltan sounds the best with the innate re-roll 1's and shredding fire for DA without support or additional investment. Just keep them as MSU with shredding fire and invest points in other areas of the army.
Can also slot banshees and scropions in to benfit from Court of the young king to make a cheap assult element.
Expert crafters + master of concealment brigade with 6x MSUDA though Sounds really really interesting to me. Unfortuinately I only own 25 of the blighters so would slot in a storm guardians squad with a fusion.
slave.entity wrote: CWE just won Slaaneshmas GT beating out Imperial Fists, Orks, and IH.
Four of the six GT's this past weekend included CWE in the top 4.
Twin starcannon wraithlords, night spinners, CHEs, nightwings, reapers, and vibro cannons all made an appearance. Two of the lists included a Yncarne.
Most lists took a custom craftworld with Expert Crafters/Masterful Shots. The one top 4 placing flyer spam list took Expert Crafters/Masters of Concealment instead.
Sean Nayden still doing Sean Nayden things with Biel-Tan, Sombre Sentinels, and Yncarne/Yvraine.
Alaitoc is no where in sight.
Where are these lists posted? Particularly any non-flyer spam. Thanks!
Interesting read, but, I’ll wait to see the other parts and their explanation of their methodology before I make a judgement on it.
For example, I have no idea why the standard Crimson Hunter was omitted, and we don’t know if these ratings are an average or, best, depending on weapon loadout. Whether they are based on “stand and shoot” figures, or do they include the movement penalty for heavy weapons? Do they include options such as CTM or Spiritstones? Hornets have a defence rating of 2, but, is that an average or has an advancing Hornet with Vectored Engines and 2 Shuriken Cannons not been considered? Etc etc.
I’d argue that all 3 variants of Support Weapon and Dark Reapers would be considered Fire Support as well. Alongside Vypers, which also had a point decrease.
I’d be interested to see what kind of numbers they have for the Aeldari Codices overall.
This was the list that won an Australian GT last weekend. Everything can fire at 48", minimal points spent on upgrades, and no lynchpin unit in the army. The list also appears to handle both MEQ and horde.
That is a pretty interesting list. Not sure how well it’d perform vs another mech list though that also brings some troops to the table.
On a reasonably well setup table, I’d expect to do relatively well vs this with my Conclave list concept, as turn 1 would just be me taking shots from the Night Spinners (in theory). From turn 2, it’d be a lot more open though and would likely swing either way based on a good turn.
It is certainly mobile, but I guess it relies on just killing more things than your opponent can each turn.
I don't know what each game was, but the player went 5-0 and won the event.
If it is anywhere similar to what I have recently played against at events, Marines were likely out in significant numbers. I don't run any troop choices and had no issues in ITC events in relation to objectives.
Sarigar wrote: This was the list that won an Australian GT last weekend. Everything can fire at 48", minimal points spent on upgrades, and no lynchpin unit in the army. The list also appears to handle both MEQ and horde.
Honestly a super cool list! Interesting to see that the War Walkers have been split up into separate units, works around the secondaries well (I assume ITC?).
Tyranid Horde wrote: Honestly a super cool list! Interesting to see that the War Walkers have been split up into separate units, works around the secondaries well (I assume ITC?).
Its also to prevent overkill by AT weapons. Yeah an Executioner or a Knight will pop one with a big gun, but the rest of the shots fizzle out unless they're prescient about their allocation.
The reason for all the small units is Expert Crafters, everything else is just a bonus. It's all 48" because that's a good distance to fight marines from. I can't decide if this is more or less dull than the flyer spam we've had up till now.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: The reason for all the small units is Expert Crafters, everything else is just a bonus. It's all 48" because that's a good distance to fight marines from. I can't decide if this is more or less dull than the flyer spam we've had up till now.
I think it will be more engaging to play against, but also a lot more “click and play” as you don’t even have to worry about flyer positioning.
I like the list concept, but, I don’t like the idea of playing it vs a mobile army that can bring excellent combat units alongside reasonable-to-good anti-tank and objective holders. Or even armies that can place an extremely durable screen down.
For example, if my Warlock Conclave wraps and traps a Vibro Cannon or 2 each turn, whilst my troops hide out of LoS on objectives and I just take out the Hornets early on, all I’m giving my opponent the chance to shoot at is 3 Wraithlords, a Wraithseer and a -2 or -3 to hit Hornet squad. The Night Spinners could target my troops, sure, but, it’d take at least 3 turns to remove them all, by which point I’d hope to be in a strong points lead.
I also feel like my Thousand Sons list that did incredibly badly at the LGT could do well. Nothing like presenting this list with 30 Pink Horrors with a 6+++ screening my characters, before ramming 30 Tzaangors into the War Walkers and/or Vibro Cannons.
The amount of armies that can now deepstrike, and make a somewhat semi-reliable charge, units that can easily kill a Knight in 1 turn has been rising and rising. Not to mention the amount of 1st turn charge threats on the table as wlel. If they can kill a Knight in 1 go, they can kill 2 Eldar tanks in one go.
A good player can, and will win with this list, I just don’t expect it to be dominant.
Charging from Deep strike doesn't seem like a threat to this list, you're only going to get to whichever one or two disposable units they choose to screen with.
So nobody still entertaining the wraithknight with the point drops?
Suncannon/shield, 2 starcannons is 386pts, works well with Wrath of the Dead, plus another trait. Seems reasonable and a big target magnet.
I'm honestly debating taking a full on wraith list to a tournament
farseer and spiritseer
3x5 wraith units (axe, scythe, cannon)
2 serrpents
2 wraithlords
wraithknight
2 hemlocks
could also replace the knight with 2 prisms and a nightspinner, but doesn't look as fun
bullyboy wrote: So nobody still entertaining the wraithknight with the point drops?
Suncannon/shield, 2 starcannons is 386pts, works well with Wrath of the Dead, plus another trait. Seems reasonable and a big target magnet.
I'm honestly debating taking a full on wraith list to a tournament
farseer and spiritseer
3x5 wraith units (axe, scythe, cannon)
2 serrpents
2 wraithlords
wraithknight
2 hemlocks
could also replace the knight with 2 prisms and a nightspinner, but doesn't look as fun
I will be playing with one this week just to see.
Craftworld Traits
Expert Crafters
Masterful Shots
Spearhead
Autarch, Starglaive, Force Shield (73)
3 x Nightspinner, Twin Catapult, Doomweaver, CTM (117 each)
Fire Prism, Twin Catapult, Prism Cannon (142)
Hornet, 2 Hornet Pulse Laser (100)
Airwing
3 x Crimson Hunter Exarch, Hawkeye (176 each)
2 x Hemlock Wraithfighter, Spirit Stone (210 each)
Lord of War
Wraithknight, Scattershield, Suncannon, 2 Starcannon (386)
Total Points: 2000
Command Points: 5
Warlord Trait: Eye on Distant Events
Relic: Faolchu's Wing
bullyboy wrote: So nobody still entertaining the wraithknight with the point drops?
Suncannon/shield, 2 starcannons is 386pts, works well with Wrath of the Dead, plus another trait. Seems reasonable and a big target magnet.
I'm honestly debating taking a full on wraith list to a tournament
farseer and spiritseer
3x5 wraith units (axe, scythe, cannon)
2 serrpents
2 wraithlords
wraithknight
2 hemlocks
could also replace the knight with 2 prisms and a nightspinner, but doesn't look as fun
If i had the models id try this cincept. Bit wacky but i can see it working potentialy...
Automatically Appended Next Post: The idea is the dakka knight would be left alone as the enemy would have to focus on the sword and board knights as well as shining spears. Use fire and fade, and matchless agility to push them up the table and with ghost walk hit those juicy targets. They cannot be ignored. Its unfortunate about just 5++ but it is what it is.
bullyboy wrote: How would people rank wraith guard (as far as best loadout)? I have 5 of each build.
I really like D-Scythes. Almost as good as cannons against tough targets and twice as good against infantry. Fearsome overwatch and can be fired while Advancing. Needs a Serpent though as the limited range means the Webway is no good for these dudes.
bullyboy wrote: How would people rank wraith guard (as far as best loadout)? I have 5 of each build.
I really like D-Scythes. Almost as good as cannons against tough targets and twice as good against infantry. Fearsome overwatch and can be fired while Advancing. Needs a Serpent though as the limited range means the Webway is no good for these dudes.
DS and quicken still work right?
I think the axes are solid now. D-scythes getting a point drops made them a lot more viable for sure.
Id rate:
1. Axes
2. Wraith cannons (because range out of DS)
3. D-schythes - Lacking range out of DS. But I can se ethem being on par to cannon variants.
4. Sword wraiths - Not killy enough to justify drop in defence vs axe veriants imo.
I have used a big block of 10 Wraithguard with D Scythe on foot. Move and the stratagem for auto 6" advance. Then, cast Quicken to move and advance again puts them in range on turn 1. However, they are a big target if you don't get first turn. Overall, not an overly competitive choice, but is a unit that will garner a lot of attention away from the rest of your army.
Sarigar wrote: Cannot use Quicken after deep strike, sadly.
I have used a big block of 10 Wraithguard with D Scythe on foot. Move and the stratagem for auto 6" advance. Then, cast Quicken to move and advance again puts them in range on turn 1. However, they are a big target if you don't get first turn. Overall, not an overly competitive choice, but is a unit that will garner a lot of attention away from the rest of your army.
Yeah I tried doing the specialist detachment with wraith cannons out of DS but felt you are essentially building your whole army around a 3CP Strat to give one slightly overcosted unit a 4++ for one turn which is very low pay off....
I mean Its not too bad with DS but you need that spirit seer to be in the position where the wraiths will come down which poses problems in an of itself. Unless you take alitoic and give him the relic and drop 1 CP on webway you are looking at 6 CP to drop spirit seer and wraiths and do the invuln Strat... Which is really poor pay off lol. Your opponent will just shoot everything else and ignore the wraiths and take the pain once deployed they are pretty slow.
well, I dropped a single wraithlord for some shadow weavers, just for the extra CP and indirect (otherwise, replace the shadow weavers with either a wraithlord with shuircannon, starcannon and sword or wraithseer with starcannon)..
Definitely Wrath of the Dead but not sure on second trait. Spearhead will need to have same Craftworld traits (even if not optimal) so that Farseer can ride in serpents.
bullyboy wrote: well, I dropped a single wraithlord for some shadow weavers, just for the extra CP and indirect (otherwise, replace the shadow weavers with either a wraithlord with shuircannon, starcannon and sword or wraithseer with starcannon)..
Definitely Wrath of the Dead but not sure on second trait. Spearhead will need to have same Craftworld traits (even if not optimal) so that Farseer can ride in serpents.
Master crafters and wrath of the dead. Looks real good for wraiths. Crafters doesn't do much for for hemlocks in this scenario as you are wounding on 2s so wrath of the dead does that. .
I used the sun cannon/starcannon loadout in my last game. He did well against black legion combined with vibro cannons and falcons with starcannon.
So much of my firepower had -3 ap that I was chewing through marines.
I'm going to take him again in my next game, possibly with 15 wraithblades/guard. With fortune he becomes pretty tough to take out, especially with the bonesinger healing him. I think he had 14 wounds left at the end of turn five so I was pretty happy with him.
Against non marine lists he may not be as effective but he loves shooting power armour.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I had the masters of concealment trait in the last game armywide but didn't count it on the knight, since he still has to have 50% concealment I think or does the trait override his specific rule?
I had the masters of concealment trait in the last game armywide but didn't count it on the knight, since he still has to have 50% concealment I think or does the trait override his specific rule?
MoC is like Bolter Discipline in that it provides an entirely separate criteria for activation of a particular effect. In short, your Wraithknight gets cover so long as it meets either criteria.
ive had decent success with flamer wraithguards getting in range on turn 1.
I just use matchless agility to give them an 11" move, then quicken them for 22" of movement in total. Unless the opponent deployed all the way in the back of his deployment zone, they will usually be able to connect.
If i end up not going first, i can just phantasm to put them in a safer spot.
I had the masters of concealment trait in the last game armywide but didn't count it on the knight, since he still has to have 50% concealment I think or does the trait override his specific rule?
MoC is like Bolter Discipline in that it provides an entirely separate criteria for activation of a particular effect. In short, your Wraithknight gets cover so long as it meets either criteria.
I got in a couple games against Alpha Legion using a Wraithknight. All in all, I am not sure he was worth the 386 points. I used Suncannon, Scattershield, and 2 Starcannons. The 2d6 roll is very swingy creating target priority challenges. The rest of my list was basically vehicles and 4 fliers present immediate threats.
My opponent just didn't have enough ranged shooting to handle so many vehicles and my army is geared to remove MEQ. The Wraithknight didn't get targeted in either game. I will get a few more games in to get a better picture of the Wraithknight.
VladimirHerzog wrote: ive had decent success with flamer wraithguards getting in range on turn 1.
I just use matchless agility to give them an 11" move, then quicken them for 22" of movement in total. Unless the opponent deployed all the way in the back of his deployment zone, they will usually be able to connect.
If i end up not going first, i can just phantasm to put them in a safer spot.
Because matchless agility states 'if that unit advances this phase,' you cannot get another auto 6" advance from quicken.
Page 10 of the rulebook faq,
"Q: Are you able to Advance or Fall Back in a different phase
when moving ‘as if it were the Movement phase’ through an
ability, Relic, Stratagem etc.?
A: Unless stated otherwise, yes. Note that if you do
Advance, and the unit has already Advanced this turn,
you should roll the dice again to see how much further
the unit moves (i.e. do not use the same roll made when
the unit first Advanced this turn)."
VladimirHerzog wrote: ive had decent success with flamer wraithguards getting in range on turn 1.
I just use matchless agility to give them an 11" move, then quicken them for 22" of movement in total. Unless the opponent deployed all the way in the back of his deployment zone, they will usually be able to connect.
If i end up not going first, i can just phantasm to put them in a safer spot.
Because matchless agility states 'if that unit advances this phase,' you cannot get another auto 6" advance from quicken.
Page 10 of the rulebook faq,
"Q: Are you able to Advance or Fall Back in a different phase
when moving ‘as if it were the Movement phase’ through an
ability, Relic, Stratagem etc.?
A: Unless stated otherwise, yes. Note that if you do
Advance, and the unit has already Advanced this turn,
you should roll the dice again to see how much further
the unit moves (i.e. do not use the same roll made when
the unit first Advanced this turn)."
huh, i thought that advancing added to your movement until the end of the turn, isnt that how kraken genestealers work?
No, that's not how advance works, it is added for that phase. From the main rules:
"When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance. Roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristics of all models in the unit for that Movement phase."
If a unit advances twice in the same phase, that unit uses the same advance amount both times.
Page 9 rulebook faq.
Q: The rules for Advancing state that you roll a dice and add the
result to the Move characteristic of the models in the unit ‘for that
Movement phase’. If, for whatever reason, I am able to Advance
and then move normally with a unit in the same Movement
phase, does the number I added to the unit’s Move characteristic
when it Advanced still apply when I make the normal move with
the unit? For example, I have a unit whose Move characteristic
is 6". It Advances, and I roll a 6, adding that to its Move
characteristic to make 12". If it moves again in the same phase,
its Move characteristic is still 12", so can it move up to 12" when
making this move? A: Yes. Note that a unit cannot Advance more than once
in the same Movement phase, so the Move characteristic
of a unit can only be modified once in this manner.
Mchagen wrote: No, that's not how advance works, it is added for that phase. From the main rules:
"When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance. Roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristics of all models in the unit for that Movement phase."
If a unit advances twice in the same phase, that unit uses the same advance amount both times.
Page 9 rulebook faq.
Q: The rules for Advancing state that you roll a dice and add the
result to the Move characteristic of the models in the unit ‘for that
Movement phase’. If, for whatever reason, I am able to Advance
and then move normally with a unit in the same Movement
phase, does the number I added to the unit’s Move characteristic
when it Advanced still apply when I make the normal move with
the unit? For example, I have a unit whose Move characteristic
is 6". It Advances, and I roll a 6, adding that to its Move
characteristic to make 12". If it moves again in the same phase,
its Move characteristic is still 12", so can it move up to 12" when
making this move? A: Yes. Note that a unit cannot Advance more than once
in the same Movement phase, so the Move characteristic
of a unit can only be modified once in this manner.
Exactly "In the same phase", with quicken it is moving in the psychic phase, so a different phase
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can use the stratagem again because it is a different phase but idk if thats worth 2 cp
bullyboy wrote: So nobody still entertaining the wraithknight with the point drops?
Suncannon/shield, 2 starcannons is 386pts, works well with Wrath of the Dead, plus another trait. Seems reasonable and a big target magnet.
The points are coming down to the level where I think it worth considering. Wrath of the Dead, Expert Crafters and Masters of Concealment all look like decent traits on a Suncannon Knight.
On a HWC Knight I would definitely favour MC over WotD as a single full reroll to hit and wound each turn is probably more useful on a small number of high-powered attacks than rerolling just 1s to wound.
bullyboy wrote: So nobody still entertaining the wraithknight with the point drops?
Suncannon/shield, 2 starcannons is 386pts, works well with Wrath of the Dead, plus another trait. Seems reasonable and a big target magnet.
I'm honestly debating taking a full on wraith list to a tournament
farseer and spiritseer
3x5 wraith units (axe, scythe, cannon)
2 serrpents
2 wraithlords
wraithknight
2 hemlocks
could also replace the knight with 2 prisms and a nightspinner, but doesn't look as fun
I will be playing with one this week just to see.
Craftworld Traits
Expert Crafters
Masterful Shots
Spearhead
Autarch, Starglaive, Force Shield (73)
3 x Nightspinner, Twin Catapult, Doomweaver, CTM (117 each)
Fire Prism, Twin Catapult, Prism Cannon (142)
Hornet, 2 Hornet Pulse Laser (100)
Airwing
3 x Crimson Hunter Exarch, Hawkeye (176 each)
2 x Hemlock Wraithfighter, Spirit Stone (210 each)
Lord of War
Wraithknight, Scattershield, Suncannon, 2 Starcannon (386)
Total Points: 2000
Command Points: 5
Warlord Trait: Eye on Distant Events
Relic: Faolchu's Wing
Made a couple small tweaks to the list in order to swap out the Autarch for a Farseer. Will get a few games in today and see how the Wraithknight plays.
I'd make some changes personally (but mostly because of my collection), but i do like the concept. I'd swap the storm guardians for Avengers to ride in Falcons (don't have reapers anyway), Go suncannon knight. Swap reapers for Nightspinners. Add another warlock jetseer, and spend rest to get to 2000pts on axe wraithguard.
Got in a few more games in; 2 against Iron Warriors and 1 against Admech. The Wraithknight is a fun model, but not overly efficient in the way I built mine (Suncannon, Scattershield, 2 Starcannon). Fortune was cast on it many times and I either cast Guide on it or a Dark Reaper squad. I have not lost it in 5 games, but I also run a lot of vehicles, which draws a lot of attention away from the Wraithknight.
I don't like the 2d6 mechanic for the Suncannon. One time I roll 4 shots, another time it is 11. The inconsistency is challenging when deciding target priority as well as deciding if splitting up firing at multiple units is worth it.
I got into assault a few times and it does fairly well (I used the stomp every time). The Admech player had some type of drill transport which dealt a lot of damage to the Wraithknight, so be wary of those and just shoot it.
The Wraithknight is also quite challenging to maneuver, so getting around ruins takes more movement than I anticipated.
In the end, I won my games, but I think it has to do more with the rest of my army being efficient at destroying MEQ (the Admech player used a Bastion and had 8 of of the tank infantry models inside which I destroyed on my turn 1). This affords the list to be able to take the Wraithknight.
On a separate note, while I like the idea of the Hornet, it has not been as stellar as I would have thought. It is not bad, but I keep looking at alternative for the 100 points, such as a Vibro Cannon unit.
I think GW missed an opportunity in Vigilus book with the Wraith Host detachment. Instead of a piss poor witch staff relic, they could have had the ability to make a knight a character with specific warlord traits available to it and made a suncannon relic that mitigated the 2D6 (either making it a fixed 12 or rolling 3D6 and taking highest). Oh well, maybe too much to ask for.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I'm actually thinking about going somewhat out of left field for my custom Craftworld. It is extremely heavy wraith based (Knight, Lord, 2 hemlocks, 3x5 wraithguard). Opting for Wrath of the Dead for obvious reasons, but I'm going to go with Warding Runes for my second trait. Reason being that the army has high Toughness and good saves, but neither of those 2 attributes help vs mortal wounds which bypass the army's strength, which could strip my army of valuable wounds (it's a small number army). Now I just have to name it.
Yea i think bare bones sword and board knight is decent. ( Id take single shuri cannon so that he can fire and fade after advancing)
The heavy wraith cannons are way too expensive loadout without invuln and the sun cannon is way too swingy. If it was 4 d3 aa opposed to 2d6 i think it would make a difference.
Im goin to go way out there and say currently even if wraith cannons total was same as sun cannon knight or sword knight i'd still not take it.
Suncannon might be swingy, but you're taking it so that you get the invuln and are more active in the shooting phase. 60pts is relatively cheap for the gun.
bullyboy wrote: Suncannon might be swingy, but you're taking it so that you get the invuln and are more active in the shooting phase. 60pts is relatively cheap for the gun.
I agree. The Suncannon is a bit naff compared to most IK weapons but it is a lot cheaper. I would take Suncannon and dual starcannons and shoot at Doomed targets on the way to tap-dance on something. For under 400 points you can get something that is just a bit too fast and dangerous to ignore.
In the ever evolving list since the Psychic Awakening and CA 2019 points adjustments, I'm going to get a few games with the following. Of note, I am a big fan of Eldar vehicles due to aesthetics and am happy they have been performing well in my lists.
I am close to getting the Yncarne finished and really want to see what shenanigans can be pulled.
I've had a lot more success with multiple msu personally.
War Walkers, vibro cannons, vypers, mini-spears, wraithlords and wraithseers, backed up by a few conservatively played CHEs. Great board coverage and complex target priority too.
grouchoben wrote: I've had a lot more success with multiple msu personally.
War Walkers, vibro cannons, vypers, mini-spears, wraithlords and wraithseers, backed up by a few conservatively played CHEs. Great board coverage and complex target priority too.
I like the concept behind it. It reminds me a lot of successful Dark Eldar builds from 5th edition. With so many units across the table, it creates a lot of challenges with target priority as well as not having any lynchpin unit. It possesses a large amount of medium and high strength weapons, counter assault, and mobility. Currently, I do not have all the various models in my collection and/or unpainted to files such an army. Otherwise, I'd try it out.
Just been reading the FAQ to clarify in my own head how Quicken interacts with Matchless Agility, and found something else really intriguing:
Apparently, Swooping Hawks can drop their grenades after using Quicken, AND after Fire-And-Fading... does this mean they can potentially drop bombs 3x per turn? If so, that’s potentially amazing the the Exarch power that increases the successes to 5+ per Hawk, or am I missing something?
NuhJuhKuh wrote: Just been reading the FAQ to clarify in my own head how Quicken interacts with Matchless Agility, and found something else really intriguing:
Apparently, Swooping Hawks can drop their grenades after using Quicken, AND after Fire-And-Fading... does this mean they can potentially drop bombs 3x per turn? If so, that’s potentially amazing the the Exarch power that increases the successes to 5+ per Hawk, or am I missing something?
No according to RAW and according to the FAQ answers you can indeed be able to use the ability up to 3x times per turn (albeit it takes a bit of psyker and cp support) it can be situational and net you some free wounds in a pinch over otherwise durable units.
P.S: i personally believe RAW wise we should be able to pull a similar trick with Warp Spiders (since the ability is worded equal) with fire and fade and their warp jump generator ability.
I played a game last night vs dark Angel's, very one sided in eldar favor, but something I learned that may be of value.
6x5 man dire avenger squads swapping out the exarchs 4++ for always AP-3 running 2 catapults all surrounding asurman to keep their 4++ becomes a very tasty front line setup. Vs the enemies infantry (marines and intercessors) my dire avengers were giving more than they were taking. I really like the phonix awakining exarch swaps makes for a completely different design choice on what was just a normal option before
NuhJuhKuh wrote: Just been reading the FAQ to clarify in my own head how Quicken interacts with Matchless Agility, and found something else really intriguing:
Apparently, Swooping Hawks can drop their grenades after using Quicken, AND after Fire-And-Fading... does this mean they can potentially drop bombs 3x per turn? If so, that’s potentially amazing the the Exarch power that increases the successes to 5+ per Hawk, or am I missing something?
No according to RAW and according to the FAQ answers you can indeed be able to use the ability up to 3x times per turn (albeit it takes a bit of psyker and cp support) it can be situational and net you some free wounds in a pinch over otherwise durable units.
P.S: i personally believe RAW wise we should be able to pull a similar trick with Warp Spiders (since the ability is worded equal) with fire and fade and their warp jump generator ability.
Yes, the thing to bear in mind with this combo is the restrictions of the grenade launcher. In a perfect scenario you avg. about 10MW from a 10 Hawk sqaud, which is nice, but here are are the conditions which must be met:
- Your target needs to be pretty close, Hawks have a big movement but you need to fly over them as per rules, so they need to be within about 12-14 inches or so at the start of your turn for the first jump, to be more than one inch away after your move.
- Your target(s) need to be 10 man or larger squads so that every Hawk gets a roll each time.
- Your Hawk squad needs to be at full strength when you kick it off, or you rapidly lose value from the investment.
-Your last move will be a paltry 7 inches, which will likely leave you extremely close to the enemy, meaning that you're likely to lose your fragile squad immediately after pulling the trick.
These were the things I was thinking about when deciding whether or not to try this, and especially number 2 convinced me that it would be a waste of time. Thinking of my opponents, the only units of 10 or more models I see regularly are basically chaff things like guardsmen, Tzaangors and poxwalkers, and all that investment for a chance at 10 MW on them wasn't worth it in my book.
The strange limit on Hawks grenades was most likely a erring on the side of caution regarding MW or maybe character sniping (whilst handing out cheap Smite to nearly everyone bar the wizard race...)
But as a cheap distraction Chickens bouncing a big unit across the table whilst nibbling at units early might be fun, using Fire/Fade to get further away rather than try for the third bombing might be a thing with that reduced charge Exarch power
edit, keep forgetting its standard Exarch ability plus another for the strat, not pick two, kind of limits the above a bit
Hope folks had a great Holiday Season. I've been able to get in quite a few games as I had some time off. I played several variations of a vehicle heavy army with some Ynarri and Harlequins added. A few things I observed over the games.
-I do not run the Yncarne very well. It seems to have so much potential, but I never quite was able to pull off any Heroic Interventions, of follow on turn assaults after his `teleport` maneuver.
-All three factions have closest visible unit and a sniping type mortal wound psychic power. When all three faction models are in a single army, it creates a dangerous mortal wound battery. A Farseer, Yvraine, and Shadowseer can punish nearly anything that tries to claim the center of the table. Each model has at least two Mortal Wound generating powers and can clear out quite a bit. The biggest piece is to ensure to measure against Deny the Witch. Toss in a Hemlock and a Wave Serpent shield for additional Mortal Wound generation. I think this has been my real damage dealer.
-I have not been able to outplay a competitive Iron Hands list. It has fared too resilient. I don't see many Iron Hand armies, so I don't get to face them as much as I would like. However, I think most players are struggling to find answers against Iron Hands.
-I run a cheap Harlequin Vanguard Detachment, and Death Jesters are great for objective holding allowing me a bit more movement flexibility in a vehicle heavy list. These models can be tucked out of LOS and have the Character keyword.
-Using Expert Crafters has changed my view on CTMs. They became a nice to have if I have points to spare rather than a must have. A reroll to hit and to wound has proven to be so good. I often move Nightspinners with out fearing any real reduction in shooting.
-I have been slowly adding some Harlequin models into the army mainly because I like the models. I enjoy having a Solitaire to assist as a counter assault element or as a turn one disruption element. I think he is a bit underpointed. Of note, they probably require a lot more CP than I build into my lists. If I try to include more of them, I likely need to completely reconstructmy army to get more CP.
-Phantasm is still very strong. I've used this ability since the codex was first released and it still provides great utility. It is nearly a `fun sponge` with my opponents who are not overly familiar with its utility. I've been able to create fairly devastating turn one alpha strikes, or reposition in such away to mitigate any real damage if going second. Repositioning units after the seize the initiative roll is ridiculously good. Harlequins have a similar ability, but can move only a single unit.
-I was disappointed the the Bonesinger went to Legends. I'll get some play from him, but he will likely get shelved for good in 2020 as I expect ITC events around me to begin banning Legend units. He fit well in my list as a cheap mortal wound generator or use the new Psychic powers tree in PA. He is an Elites choice, which I have space for in my current build.
-I am now painting three support weapon batteries. They are cheap enough points wise to try them out, and appear to synergize with Expert Crafters. We shall see.
- I am seeing online a few trying out the big Warlock Conclave. It looks interesting, but I don't have the time to build and paint 9 more Warlock Skyrunners in the near term.
As far as iron hands go I have found eldar have a few good answers to them.
Banshees - no overwatch, tie their units up in cc that dont want to be there. Thunderfire guns, whirlwinds, any tank that doesn't fly will get stuck falling back and not doing anything for a turn which can change things quickly.
Halriquin bikers - 6 bikers using strat to become -2 to hit with haywire cannons should be able to blink a dreadnought and not even worry about it.
Guardian bomb - jinx+doom+guide = now you see it now you dont, especially vs t8 stuff
Asurman + many 5 man dire avenger squads - iron hands infanty i have found typically go with intercessors with the 36" range stalker bolt rifles, so your talking 5 str 5 ap-3 2dmg guns. They dont want to shoot them at 5 man dire avengers who all have a 4++ save because your taking away the 2 main advantages of that gun, namely the ap and dmg. However the avenger exarch will be able to hurt them back with 4 str 4 ap-3 1dmg guns, every one of his you kill is worth it in this situation and 6 squads of 5 properly set up with asurman can do some serious work.
Crimson hunter exarchs- 2 bright lance loadout has been doing serious work for me, I have been taking 2 of them. I am torn between giving them a 5++ save or dont count as moving to fire (so hitting on 2's) but if my opponent doesnt target them they will pop a vehicle.
These are just some things I normally take in my eldar lists that would seem to be good matchups vs iron hands. I have an iron hand player I normally play and he has had trouble with my eldar everytime. Win/lose rate is around 50/50 so I dont know what that tells you but just trying to help with what I have seen work on the tabletop.
I appreciate the reply. I use CHE extensively. I've used all the others (minus the Banshees) with mixed results. Definitely worth trying again as I have been playing a vehicle heavy list for the past two months.
Hey guys, I was hoping I could get some constructive advice on how to integrate some dark eldar into my eldar army (and how the mechanics would work). I am not a tourney player, I do enjoy playing and trying to win, but I just dont keep up with the arms race anymore. Anyhow, my eldar force focuses around a 20 man blob of guardians, I also have another 10 man squad and Ill add in squad of rangers to get my 3 troops choices. I usually run some shining spears, wave serpents and I have a unit of shooty wraithguard (also have a wraithknight, wraithlords).
Anyways, I couldnt pass up a good deal, I bought 3 venoms, the codex and a Getting Started box set for $100. My thought was to run 3 5 man squads of warriors in venoms for another battlion. It would give my more static eldar some movement and cheap objective grabbing. So my questions, do I want to use the raider? As the warrior squads are 5 man and the venoms only hold 5, what about the HQs? I would bet I just take 2 archons correct? What equipment? And I want to take the bloody rose right to give my venoms a 6+ FNP? Any advice would be appreciated. I would guess Ill get rid of the 3 bikes and possibly the raider as I want to keep my Dark Eldar force fairly cheap pointwise so I dont lose out on too many eldar models.
You may have better luck on the de section but I will put my 2 cents in.
Keep the raider. Its cheap and good. Put a disintigrator on it and call it a day.
Run black heart, they give your vehicles the 6+++. Plus they give you access to agents of vect strat.
Venoms are great, just give them 2 splinter cannons and use them as a harassment force.
Bikes are good too but I dont care for just 3, that's not enough to do much other than die. But a large squad of them with grav talons isn't very expensive and can do mortal wounds on the charge. Put a few blaster pistols in there and use them as harassment anti tank.
I run my warriors in 10 man blobs with a splinter cannon, cheap and effective. I put wyches in my venoms and keep them small and cheap, they are a great annoyance force.
The Aeldari meta has shifted slightly (better significantly if complared with 7th ed).
Have a look into the recent winner (places 1-4) armies at 40kstats.com.
Here are the lists:
Yes! Vibro Cannons and Falcons have even more life in them after the point drops that came after those lists. Expert Crafters is great for them, masters of concealment also. Here is a list I had great success with locally, though it could be improved with the loss of Jain Zar (included for a bit of the boxset theme in one game).
Let's talk about where Crimson Hunter Exarchs stand compared to Falcons, Nightwings, Wraithlords, War Walkers, and Vibro Cannons.
For the price of 2 CHE's you can take 3 missile Falcons. CHE's still seem much killier against Fly targets but against everything else their damage output is similar.
36 T7 Falcon wounds is of course much better than 24 T6 CHE wounds. -2 to hit Alaitoc CHE's are significantly weaker with all the marine re-rolls everywhere, so both Falcons and CHEs will probably be running Masters of Concealment for a base 2+ save, I think?
Falcons have been useful all edition but the PTS drop and expert crafters have pushed them over the edge, same with vibro cannons. Cheap, dependable firepower is never a bad option, falcons have the speed and flexibility of the grav tanks in their favour too, I've even managed to snipe the odd character with them against sloppy or overaggressive players.
Dire avengers in falcons are definitely the base of my lists at the moment, phoenix rises was a good buff for eldar, chapter approved was the sugar on top.
zerosignal wrote: Are Imperial Fists now a hard counter for the expert crafters/masters of concealment lists?
Are the support batteries vehicles?
Ye sit does have the vehicle keyword.
Interetsingly, it also has the Guardian keyword interestingly enough. Meaning you can use the celestial strat shield on one of them in a pinch if you have nothing else to spend CP on and want to annoy an opponent. Or black guardians if you play them as ulthwe (because you might take a cheap spearhead of these for eldrad)
I've thought going with expert crafters and masterful shots might be a good counter meta pick for a while, lots of marine successors seem to go for stealthy/master artisans too I think.
Has anyone considered running a mixed Craftworld Detachment?
The benefits being you can use relics and characters from different Craftworlds from your main detachments with the drawback that they won't benefit from Craftworld traits. Anything with abilities that don't effect <Craftworld> exclusively are good candidates like psychic powers and Phoenix Lords.
But chances are if you going ulthwe thats only because you want eldrad and black guardians and youd take a warlock for seer council anyway.
I like to run an ulthwe battalion with Eldrad + warlock, 2x 5 rangers and a 20 man Guardian unit with Shuri cannons goon squad. CO battery with a lot of utility.
I took a list of five squads of five avengers with dual wielding exarchs supported by asurman in my last game which was against custodes. All in transports, three falcons and a serpent, to keep them safe.
I'd previously used shredding fire on the exarchs but swapped that out for bladestorm. Wow, combined with hail of doom dire avengers are a bit scary to even custodes!
I'm hoping to try them against marines soon, probably of the chaos variety since no one seems to run loyalists at my local store, I think they should put in real work against marines.