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I understand this idea is vile heresy and Exterminatus is already in progress, but what does depress me after my first reading of the 6th edition Codex: Space Marines is the question, what can Sisters do that Marines can't do better? Now Tac Marines only cost two points more than a
Battle Sister, have the same armor & weapons, Chapter Tactics that give SRs at least as good as White Dwarf codex Faith (Witchhunters-style Faith, where any Sisters unit could do any of five things, would be a different story), and they have +1 WS, S, T, and I.
I understand there's such a thing as codex creep and Sisters chronically get left behind, but I really want to ask all the expert players in this thread, what can Sisters do better than 6th edition Marines, and how do we use that to our advantage when the Ecclesiarchy calls on us to bring those prideful, non-Emperor worshipping jarheads back into line?
AP1 Spam. No army does it better than us. Considering how many PA, TDA and MC models are on the table, that's good.
Also, Celestine. No one has a better warlord.
Our troops may not be as cheap, they may not be as cool, but we have clever tricks.
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That's the thing I always say when describing Sisters to others, especially those who never fought them before and are a bit gobsmacked at how much pain I can put out in an unassuming package.
Sisters do not do flashy or spectacular things. But they reliably do it. They are not a sports car, but the ol' reliable.
Underestimation is a big deal for SOB. All of our units are underestimated and that is just death.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, how many other 48" AP1 guns are there?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/10 16:18:04
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Sisters did get a downgrade with the SM codex being cheaper per figure. As others have pointed out, there are still unique things that SM's simply cannot do.
Big 2:
Celestine
Exorcists
The rest:
Doms -- Gotta be salamanders to be as good
Seraphim -- Noone beats for twin linked duel flamer
Rets -- Rending heavy bolters. Yea, SM chapters haven't figured out that one yet. Suckers!
DCA/Crusader -- Grey Knights may have these, but with the creepy old man in the unit, ours is WAY better.
I'll give you that SM's have a lot of cool stuff in that codex, but sisters aren't out for the count quite yet.
I'm going to be asking a lot of questions in the future, most of them answered by this thread and just seeking confirmation. I just want to make sure I'm well informed before I drop coin on these ladies.
Soooo.... Seraphim squads, 10 strong, 2 hand flamers, 1 superior. Still a good choice? And what do you give as far as other equipment to the superior and what not?
Celestine...solo or in a unit. What type of unit would you run her in?
Celestine with Seraphim for added protection, solo if you must (say low points game).
Seraphim in 10 are good, but expensive. Superior benefits from melta-bombs or an Eviscerator. I don't usually arm her for CC, but to take out tanks more easily.
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I have been running Celestine solo recently. She's good with Seraphim, but sometimes you can just run her alone and she's still good.
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pretre wrote: I have been running Celestine solo recently. She's good with Seraphim, but sometimes you can just run her alone and she's still good.
The big boon from runningvwith the Seraphim is that they give her Hit & Run so she can't get tarpitted. Without hit and run you either have to wait for her to chew through whatever your fighting or hope she goes down fast and then reappears ASAP.
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Lost the first game because I could not blow up a land raider. This was the first time i've ever had that happen. I must have rolled a 3 on 2d6 about 5 times with melta weapons. When the dice decided to turn to chaos, Watch out!
The second game was against a mostly foot eldar. He had a wraithknight character that was his general and the highlight of the game was when Celestine tanked like 20 S6+ shots, got charged by the wraithknight and killed it before she could get stomped. It was the difference in the game and gave me the win in a VERY close game.
The third game was against tau and I slaughtered him. Good rolling on my part and bad (for the most part) on his. My highlight was that after he killed off the doms I had a rhino on his side of the field that served no purpose, so I tank shocked him and amazingly enough routed a unit of fire warriors off the field. Good stuff.
WAR!
That was a great match! The Landraider should have died many times.... If it had, you would have won... My son the Tau player wanted to bury the dice after that game... LOL
"If you don't know the Dog, don't yank his chain.."
Ah, yes, even in the new Codex, good ol' Guilliman still doesn't let his Tac squads take a pair of meltas like our Battle Sisters, and the Marines have no equivalent to Dominions (even Sternguard vets max out at two special weapons), let alone the Exorcist.
But they get heavy flamers way cheaper than we do! Fire's our thing!
Yes, Celestine is awesome. But -- I know this sounds weird -- I have a strange aversion to special characters.....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/11 02:12:25
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
SisterSydney wrote: But -- I know this sounds weird -- I have a strange aversion to special characters.....
You're far from the only one. It's not uncommon for a player to prefer a generic over a SC. I am one such person.
In regards to the Sisters specifically, the best way to run your Canoness (I assume it'd be a Canoness anyway) is to put her with some HB Rets. Along with a Simulacrum, this makes it highly likely that they'll pass their faith check and get rending. Also gives them a powerful protector, and makes whatever combi weapon you may have given her rending too.
Though as helpful as our generic Canoness is in this role, the sad truth is that she's still much outclassed by special characters. So if you want to be as competetive as you can, then specials are probably the way to go. But if you're set on taking a generic, then go for it.
Edit: on a related note, I've been tempted recently to give my Canoness an Eviscerator and a Rosarius alongside her combi weapon. I know I really shouldn't but damn it, I want a more badass Canoness. Guess I could periodically do that loadout just for fun.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/11 03:03:07
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
That was a great match! The Landraider should have died many times.... If it had, you would have won... My son the Tau player wanted to bury the dice after that game... LOL
After that game he may want to.... except for his commanders dice from his armor/feel no pain rolls. That thing tanked 3 turns of 3 exorcists blasting away at him before dropping!
In regards to the Sisters specifically, the best way to run your Canoness (I assume it'd be a Canoness anyway) is to put her with some HB Rets. Along with a Simulacrum, this makes it highly likely that they'll pass their faith check and get rending. Also gives them a powerful protector, and makes whatever combi weapon you may have given her rending too.
I still like the idea of priests being around the units over a Canoness. Seems like pilgrims, missionaries and priests should be plentiful around a sisters convent given all of the relics laying around. Its truly a shame that confessors and priests are so awful right now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/11 12:52:17
war wrote: I still like the idea of priests being around the units over a Canoness. Seems like pilgrims, missionaries and priests should be plentiful around a sisters convent given all of the relics laying around. Its truly a shame that confessors and priests are so awful right now.
It would also help if the clergy had mobs of Frateris Militia rabble to whip into a hate-crazed suicidal frenzy of killingness.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
war wrote: I still like the idea of priests being around the units over a Canoness. Seems like pilgrims, missionaries and priests should be plentiful around a sisters convent given all of the relics laying around. Its truly a shame that confessors and priests are so awful right now.
It would also help if the clergy had mobs of Frateris Militia rabble to whip into a hate-crazed suicidal frenzy of killingness.
Or Redemptionists! I miss my mobs of redemptionists. I still have probably 60 or so that I use for allied guard.
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I remember there were "chapter approved" rules floating around for Zealots, Redemptionists, whatever -- but does GW still approve those? If so, where do you FIND them?
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
SisterSydney wrote: I remember there were "chapter approved" rules floating around for Zealots, Redemptionists, whatever -- but does GW still approve those? If so, where do you FIND them?
Chances are they are not really approved anymore since they reference C:WH. You can find them on the web with a bit of scouring. GW offered to mail me a photocopy years ago.
The Zealot rules were nowhere near as cool as the Redemptionist rules in Codex: Chapter Approved though.
edit: Come to think of it, I have the White Dwarf (physical copy) in my Swap Shop thread if you wanted it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/11 18:06:53
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So been playing around and (presuming my local meta goes with my line of thinking on SoB-BT allies) I've kinda got a fun idea for a 1000 point Black Templar ally for my Sisters.
My logic is that my current list is a mobile, mechanized force that mainly lacks in the straightforward punch department. What I really need is something to slam forward and get stuck in while my Sisters set up firing lanes, hunt tanks or combine fire on another target. In short, I need a big, distracting beatstick. So here's my thinking:
Black Templar ally:
HQ Emperor's Champion
Troops
10 Initiates w/ CCW in Land Raider Crusader
Elites
5 Vanguard vets with Storm Shields and a mix of power swords and axes
Heavy
Land Raider
1000 points even, and it gives me two big AV14 boxes of pain full of sword-wielding maniacs.
You are aware that codex:black templars is obsoleted by codex: space marines (6th ed) right? That list looks to me like the old book. I might be wrong though, I don't own either.
(Also, those don't really add anything that synergises with sisters other than 3+ saves...)
I collect:
Guard - 2k of mostly infantry
DA - 2k of deathwing, 2k of other bits (no vehicles)
Sisters - mostly converted/proxy because I'm waiting for therange to go plastic.
Tau - 2k with no riptides because I can.
That's the new book. Old book didn't have vanguard.
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Nobody_Holme wrote: You are aware that codex:black templars is obsoleted by codex: space marines (6th ed) right? That list looks to me like the old book. I might be wrong though, I don't own either.
(Also, those don't really add anything that synergises with sisters other than 3+ saves...)
It is the new book. I have it here.
And it does synergize in giving more of a forward assault element, as well as heavy armor. While I primarily run a list that is very mobile (through rhinos) and effective at short to mid-range shooting (bolters and melta), what it lacks is an assault, or more specifically, counter assault unit. The Templar add a mobile assault threat that can be used to pry enemies out of cover or deal with an opponent's melee elements while providing some hefty armor at a relatively low points cost.
I'd suggest repentia walking up behind the sisters if you want to deter assaults.
Sisters may not be outstanding in assaults, but they usually stick out at least one round, and if you can't overwatch the repentia then oh dear me that's 10 girls swinging eviscerators. Not much out there that can handle that damage, and you didn't pay 1K points to have them there, so you can bring out sisters AV13 spam instead of a pair of raiders.
Personal taste, or me being dumb? (And I don't want to criticise your BT allies, I just really don't see what it gives you that the sisters can't do for you, unlike, say, podding iron hands giving the sisters a distraction, or massed cover-providing guardsmen charging forwards, for example)
I collect:
Guard - 2k of mostly infantry
DA - 2k of deathwing, 2k of other bits (no vehicles)
Sisters - mostly converted/proxy because I'm waiting for therange to go plastic.
Tau - 2k with no riptides because I can.
war wrote: Sisters did get a downgrade with the SM codex being cheaper per figure. As others have pointed out, there are still unique things that SM's simply cannot do.
Big 2:
Celestine
Exorcists
The rest:
Doms -- Gotta be salamanders to be as good
Seraphim -- Noone beats for twin linked duel flamer
Rets -- Rending heavy bolters. Yea, SM chapters haven't figured out that one yet. Suckers!
DCA/Crusader -- Grey Knights may have these, but with the creepy old man in the unit, ours is WAY better.
I'll give you that SM's have a lot of cool stuff in that codex, but sisters aren't out for the count quite yet.
Well, doms can be done with RG, and flame-goodness with salamandars, but honesty in my two games against SoB so far, I underestimated Exo's potential and didnt focus it down first, and got decimated for it.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Nobody_Holme wrote: I'd suggest repentia walking up behind the sisters if you want to deter assaults.
Sisters may not be outstanding in assaults, but they usually stick out at least one round, and if you can't overwatch the repentia then oh dear me that's 10 girls swinging eviscerators. Not much out there that can handle that damage, and you didn't pay 1K points to have them there, so you can bring out sisters AV13 spam instead of a pair of raiders.
Personal taste, or me being dumb? (And I don't want to criticise your BT allies, I just really don't see what it gives you that the sisters can't do for you, unlike, say, podding iron hands giving the sisters a distraction, or massed cover-providing guardsmen charging forwards, for example)
Well, this is big-picture thinking, hardly any solid tactical planning going on to fill immediate needs. I mean, I've got a 4k game with pure Sisters this weekend (fun times!) and I've got the models, so it isn't like I -need- these BT allies to hit some competitive level. They are mostly a means to expand my army without the expense of more Sisters (as my collection is at about the level I'm happy with), and it gives me some fresh wrinkles to play with and new options for larger games. And it is an expansion that keeps with fluff.
That said, as far as Sisters in assaults, I do have two squads of Repentia, but they rarely see a lot of action given their slowness and the fact that they have the big glowing 'shoot and hit us' sign on them. I will be breaking them out for my big game this weekend though, mostly to lay in wait and tangle with whatever threatens my lines, so my opinion may very well be blown away in mere days. While my Sisters are great at sticking out in assaults, the low WS and T means that they lose battles of attrition in a hurry, break and their low I means relatively easy sweeps. I don't like risking my scoring units for 'tie them up for the Repentia' when I could ally in something that can reliably wade into melee and wreck some faces with minimal support.
They would be ok at that if they were a bit more survivable. As it stands pretty much anything can murder them in the shooting phase or assault phase (due to init)
Automatically Appended Next Post: most expensive infantry in the 'codex' and also the easiest to kill
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/12 14:24:30
I could see Repentia having use on a board that had a lot of LOS blocking terrain as something as an ambush force. But since I play a very mobile game, static elements that only hope for something to come by are a little against my plans.
As far as I've found, Repentia are good to be used either as a single, oft small-to-mid sized squad for use as a counter assault squad inside your own lines, OR, 3 mid-to-max sized squads to charge the enemy lines with other immediate threats.
And tomorrow, I am rolling into a 4000 point game, good times. I'll either be up against Blood Angels or Eldar, but that is as far as I know. Not exactly like I can really manage my list, as 4000 points is pretty much the highest limit of what I can take, so what I am taking is:
Considering how many 
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can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
