Looks over at Operation Icestorm box bought a few months ago...it might be time.

Seriously every single time it looks like the new codexes in a new edition look to be somewhat balanced Eldar come along a ruin it.

EDIT: Lol, never mind. May as well be honest; I found this on another forum. No credit for me other than sharing it lol.

Page 30, Munitorum Report, top left section;

"The Eldar have more Destroyer Weapons than anyone else - Wraithguard, Wraithknights and D-cannons are going to wreak true destructive havoc!"

Good work GW

 djones520 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
I'm loving this. Still in the rumor stages and it's the most hated army ever.

Except it isn't rumours. We've literally seen stuff from the codex in the WD.

Right, because the WD has always been a correct representation of how the army is played.

Until it's on the table, and we're seeing variations of lists and the like, this type of stuff is just silly.

We've literally seen unit entries...

I'm so tempted to rage-quit my Eldar army. Jesus Christ ..

Mymearan wrote:
I'm so tempted to rage-quit my Eldar army. Jesus Christ ..

OR

Just wait a few weeks till you get the codex and build an army that you are comfortable fielding that will fit in with your meta.

Just because you can break something doesn't mean you have to.

Mymearan wrote:
I'm so tempted to rage-quit my Eldar army. Jesus Christ ..

Noone's forcing you to spam destroyer weapons and scatter lasers, you know

I have like 3 of the old jetbikes... I guess i am gonna need more... a lot more.

Money aside this is getting really out of hand.

Well, this might be the thing that finally gets me to quit 40k. D-weapon spam is bad enough in Apocalypse, if it gets into normal games then there's really no point in playing anymore.

 Peregrine wrote:
Well, this might be the thing that finally gets me to quit 40k. D-weapon spam is bad enough in Apocalypse, if it gets into normal games then there's really no point in playing anymore.

Lets hope this isn't the case!

 koooaei wrote:

Mymearan wrote:
I'm so tempted to rage-quit my Eldar army. Jesus Christ ..

Noone's forcing you to spam destroyer weapons and scatter lasers, you know

He's still going to get "that look" when he pulls out his Eldar though. Even if he plays a banshee army. Any win he pulls from a game will be "because OP Eldar," not because of anything he did or that the opponent messed up on.

The boon of the Eldar player is to have one of the most powerful unbalanced armies of all time. The curse that comes with it, however...Doomed to forever be "just another Eldar guy" and nothing that he does will be recognized as his own skill. He is literally a puppet of his own army, only there to help the models move as they command him to move them.

Will take may Space marine army to the next tournament and a bat called Eldarhammer to hit the eldar player in the knee, probably the only advantage i will get

What's everyone's gripe with D-weapons?

Ranged D-Weapons. Close Combat D-Weapons can be mitigated somewhat. Against ranged D-Weapons there is no escape

 angelofvengeance wrote:
What's everyone's gripe with D-weapons?

They're good at everything. The wound all non-vehicle models on a 2+ regardless of toughness and inflict multiple wounds (when it matters), and they auto-pen vehicles on a 2+ and inflict D3 HP instead of one. So that LRBT is just as fragile as a land speeder, and that awesome MC is just as fragile as a grot. Even superheavies get wiped off the table against D-weapons, so forget about taking a 500+ point Baneblade or similar unit and expecting it to live.

It's even worse with Eldar because we know jetbike spam is going to be really powerful. And what's the only real weakness of it? AV 13-14. Now guess what D-weapons are really great at killing. An Eldar player is free to spend half their points on scatter laser jetbikes because anything the jetbikes can't kill is going to be insta-killed by the D-weapons.

Having access to ranged D weapons in multiple FOC/formation slots is like having access to a modern armory against 3 guys with bow and arrow. As a tournament eldar player, I'm not complaining, but the entire Internet will.

Against the upcoming Scatrider Spam, I can think of (CSM/SM) Typhon Heavy Siege Tank and AM Hellhammer off the top of my head. Both have very high AV on SH platforms and fire huge S10 AP 1 blasts with Ignores Cover.

Now, you just have to survive a hail of ranged Strength D fire to put a hole in the jetbike phalanx.

I'm glad that my local tournaments ban ranged Strength D. I don't want to use them and I don't want to face them.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
What's everyone's gripe with D-weapons?

You start a game. You deploy a land raider, or a tervigon, or even a baneblade peeking out from behind some ruins.
He shoots a D and rolls a 6. Either of those first two is gone for sure. The baneblade is probably dead.

If you're playing a moderate size game such as 1850, losing a baneblade on the top of t1 is pretty much game over, as you're now down 500ish points.

Yep. A small unit of Wraithguard with the Archon deep strike right next to your big expensive model and has a great chance of just making it go away. Unless points drastically change for WG, this is pretty significant.

Not really a problem for me as my group don't have a lot of D weapons anyways. Think at most, there's the Bloodthirster with his giant choppy 2 handed axe.

I'm hoping for the Wraithknight to be in the 400+ point range, would put it in the same cost category as the other Superheavys/ Ranged D wielders (Silver Tower/Shadowsword/Kill Bursta).

niv-mizzet wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
What's everyone's gripe with D-weapons?

You start a game. You deploy a land raider, or a tervigon, or even a baneblade peeking out from behind some ruins.
He shoots a D and rolls a 6. Either of those first two is gone for sure. The baneblade is probably dead.

If you're playing a moderate size game such as 1850, losing a baneblade on the top of t1 is pretty much game over, as you're now down 500ish points.

Also, chances are these weapons will be mounted on a particularly hard to kill platform. Wraithknights were a pain in the backside for some armies already, even without being a Gargantuan Creature immune to Instant Death, Sniper shots and with built-in FNP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Not really a problem for me as my group don't have a lot of D weapons anyways. Think at most, there's the Bloodthirster with his giant choppy 2 handed axe.

D weapons were almost nonexistant in my area, too, but it is not rare for Eldar players to have 2+ Wraithknights, not to mention other units armed with guns with the Distort rule.

So, the number of D weapons just spiked

This makes me wonder if distort weapons will be 'proper' D-weapons, or something like 'treat as Destroyer attack if you roll a 6 to hit'.

According to the post above, D Cannons, Wraithguard and Wraithknight all have the Destroyer rule which will shift the game dramatically. Bikes and Wraithguard essentially have what one needs to deal with a lot of armies: massed S6 shooting sprinkled with Destroyer weapons. However, it remains to be seen if Wraithguard can move and fire normally as we don't know the exact stats for their weapon.

Does anyone remember when Distortion Cannons were just normal heavy weapons?

They had a 32" range and left a 2" bubble that moved D6" in a random direction and killed anything it touched that didn't get out of the way. The slower the unit, the worse the get-the-hell-out-of-the-way save. One of my very first space marine squadrons had a kitbashed D-Cannon!

Did we really need that many D-weapons?

Eesh. Well, bugger my Nurgle list then. Lol, FNP against D weapons? Nope. Guess I get to experience the joy of having a codex balanced for the end of 5th in the power creep of 7th.

Hey, just like the crappy end of 4th Codex we had that carried over to 6th!

Really. D weapons. It's almost like they're desperate to shove super heavies for sales.

Putting D-Weapons on WGuards and D-Cannons will have the opposite effect. Super Heavies would become obsolete. Actually any non flying MC and vehicle would (yes even WKs).

It would be so dumb that i'm still thinking that it is all a misunderstanding of some kind. Not even GW can pull that off.

The abundance of D weapons is actually more likely to attract hordes as hordes basically don't care if it's s6 or S: D. Whereas there's no use in bringing an expensive superheavy if it's gona get erazed in one turn.

The real sad thing isn't the access to ranged D weapons...it's the fact no one will actually be able to field any of those units at a tournament. GW has inadvertently gimped the Eldar by giving them access to so many D weapons.

Here's a bunch of stuff to use, that tournaments will ban.

Suddenly, Wave Serpents don't look so bad...

 koooaei wrote:
The abundance of D weapons is actually more likely to attract hordes as hordes basically don't care if it's s6 or S: D. Whereas there's no use in bringing an expensive superheavy if it's gona get erazed in one turn.

Which they will be swiftly and efficiently dealt by mass scatter laser shots! Eldars will have access to the best solution for every problem you can throw at them.

The only good thing in all this is the nerf to wave serpents.

Spoletta wrote:
The only good thing in all this is the nerf to wave serpents.

Is there a nerf to Serpents? The only thing I've read is losing laser lock, which is hardly a nerf considering what makes the serpent so powerful currently.

 Capamaru wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
The abundance of D weapons is actually more likely to attract hordes as hordes basically don't care if it's s6 or S: D. Whereas there's no use in bringing an expensive superheavy if it's gona get erazed in one turn.

Which they will be swiftly and efficiently dealt by mass scatter laser shots! Eldars will have access to the best solution for every problem you can throw at them.

Like they used to have in 6-th, basically. Nothing new. Just getting worse, recieving more hate and homeruled, that's it.

Losing laser lock is a serious hit to WS firepower.

You know, the message of the D is to set the artist free...

This codex is a cosmic shame.

Spoletta wrote:
Losing laser lock is a serious hit to WS firepower.

Its a minor hit to WS firepower.

The scatter laser was already TL, and the shield still has the random shots to deal with, meaning in a game it could have wildly different firepower anyways turn by turn, and the range coupled with ignores cover, its status as an ObSec transport available to most infantry not occupying a slot is what makes the serpent so powerful.

Losing laser lock hurts a little, but the serpent is still incredibly strong assuming nothing else changed.

Spoletta wrote:
The only good thing in all this is the nerf to wave serpents.

So when the Eldar players scrap their 6-8 Wave Serpents and have points left over to spam out new improved Wraithknights with even longer ranged D weapons we can be thankful for that, right?

From what I see one of the 'core' blocks you can take for the mandatory is lol 3 units of bikes, a Vyper squadron, Farseer and Warlocks on bikes. Really going to be a problem considering the bike-spam armies that existed before Serpent Spam.

Wait, no.

 Blacksails wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Losing laser lock is a serious hit to WS firepower.

Its a minor hit to WS firepower.

The scatter laser was already TL, and the shield still has the random shots to deal with, meaning in a game it could have wildly different firepower anyways turn by turn, and the range coupled with ignores cover, its status as an ObSec transport available to most infantry not occupying a slot is what makes the serpent so powerful.

Losing laser lock hurts a little, but the serpent is still incredibly strong assuming nothing else changed.

Really laser lock was more or less to make the serpent a "lol im anti air" weapons platform by twinlinking that s7 ignores cover shield.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The only good thing in all this is the nerf to wave serpents.

So when the Eldar players scrap their 6-8 Wave Serpents and have points left over to spam out new improved Wraithknights with even longer ranged D weapons we can be thankful for that, right?

From what I see one of the 'core' blocks you can take for the mandatory is lol 3 units of bikes, a Vyper squadron, Farseer and Warlocks on bikes. Really going to be a problem considering the bike-spam armies that existed before Serpent Spam.

Wait, no.

Don't worry, if it is all then true they will not spam WK, they would suck in a heavy ranged D meta.

Spoletta wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The only good thing in all this is the nerf to wave serpents.

So when the Eldar players scrap their 6-8 Wave Serpents and have points left over to spam out new improved Wraithknights with even longer ranged D weapons we can be thankful for that, right?

From what I see one of the 'core' blocks you can take for the mandatory is lol 3 units of bikes, a Vyper squadron, Farseer and Warlocks on bikes. Really going to be a problem considering the bike-spam armies that existed before Serpent Spam.

Wait, no.

Don't worry, if it is all then true they will not spam WK, they would suck in a heavy ranged D meta.

Only against other Eldar players.

At this point i think the only thing that'll save the codex is an army special rule : "Eldar are dying so only get to use half the points of their opponent"

They're gona save the day faq-ing scatter lasers to actually have scatter locks.
"...we sometimes make mistakes..."

Nocturnus wrote:
Suddenly, Wave Serpents don't look so bad...

Cheese Serpents are still Cheese Serpents unless anything else has changed - the laser lock is a very minor adjustment to a hugely OP unit.

Lets hope they have fixed that with the shield range now at 6" and actually done something to help units like Banshees rather than Bikes which needed nothing really?

For all we know illic nightspear can one shot a baneblade let alone a landraider .

And besides loosing laserlock we know nothing about any nerf on the serpent. The core of min guardian units in serpents with 3 units of jet bikes will be extremely efficient even before you add anything from the support units.

What's laserlock do? I'm not familiar with it being Dark Angels/Dark Eldar/Necrons

I've always wanted to collect an Eldar jetbike army, but was waiting for the new jet bikes. Now I can do it and be labelled a massive cheese cake too!

 angelofvengeance wrote:
What's laserlock do? I'm not familiar with it being Dark Angels/Dark Eldar/Necrons

If scatter laser hits then all other shots from the other weapons became twin linked.

I can't say I am impressed with the models they just look like nothing new same basic stance for the guy with wings and bikes look OK but just not enough of a redesign or tweek. The farseer looks about the best and even that just seems a bit meh.

I am hoping for wraithblades to get a little boost maybe an extra wound or some special rule like rage or its likes.

I admit not an eldar player play dark eldar with a small amount of harlequins but always wanted to add wraithblades just needed them to have a few more attacks a squad

Well, 7th was fun while it lasted.


bye everyone!

Caederes wrote:7) Warlocks can only take Sanctic Daemonology and Runes of Battle. This might indicate that Eldar have a similar rule to Grey Knights where they can safely use Sanctic Daemonology but can never use Malefic Daemonology.

Bikes with a Warlock:
1. Move 12"
2. Gate to anywhere
3. Shoot something or turbo-boost 36"
4. Assault move 2d6"

koooaei wrote:We're slowly moving to S: D lasguns to ballance things out.

A fair destiny for the true heroes of the Imperium! Wait, if eveything had S: D, noone would be a hero...

Oh man, Supporting Fire with S: D Fire Warriors and markerlights... hmmm

Spoletta wrote:Putting D-Weapons on WGuards and D-Cannons will have the opposite effect. Super Heavies would become obsolete. Actually any non flying MC and vehicle would (yes even WKs).

Come to think of it, WSs won't even shoot their shields anymore. They'll want to keep it so they'll survive and unload their S: D cargo. Nerfing the shield firepower won't even matter!

koooaei wrote:They're gona save the day faq-ing scatter lasers to actually have scatter locks.
"...we sometimes make mistakes..."

I find it pretty hilarious that (assuming no changes) Wave Serpent spam will now die out but not due to balancing but rather due to the fact that Eldar now have access to so obscenely OP units that even the Wave Serpent becomes a "worse" point investment when compared to the bikes!

Maybe this codex was written with the 8th edition rules in mind, and once they release it will be balanced.

…I can’t believe I wrote that, even as a sarcastic joke. But I’m having flashbacks to some of the last codex of the edition balance discussions, where units that didn’t make a whole lot of sense in the last edition became more balanced under the new.

 Nevelon wrote:
Maybe this codex was written with the 8th edition rules in mind, and once they release it will be balanced.

…I can’t believe I wrote that, even as a sarcastic joke. But I’m having flashbacks to some of the last codex of the edition balance discussions, where units that didn’t make a whole lot of sense in the last edition became more balanced under the new.

Was there anything that seemed this strong that was toned down in a new edition? I mean what could they really do to tone it down?

To be honest everyone should unite and boycott this release then we might get a rules change

But hey, whatever floats a power gamers boat, they'll probably support GW no matter what so long as they can win

Suddenly, a Deathstrike Launcher seems like an acceptable investment for my Guard...

 Kanluwen wrote:
Suddenly, a Deathstrike Launcher seems like an acceptable investment for my Guard...

It will die long before it fires, mate. :(

Caederes wrote:7) Warlocks can only take Sanctic Daemonology and Runes of Battle. This might indicate that Eldar have a similar rule to Grey Knights where they can safely use Sanctic Daemonology but can never use Malefic Daemonology.

Unlikely. The Harlequin Shadowseer also had access to Sanctic Daemonology, without anything to avoid the added risk of perils. And the leaked Warlock in the Windrider datasheet didn't have any rule that might do something like that.

 Frozocrone wrote:
To be honest everyone should unite and boycott this release then we might get a rules change

But hey, whatever floats a power gamers boat, they'll probably support GW no matter what so long as they can win

The power gamer's boat will be full of jetbike purchases that will please GW.

 Zewrath wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Suddenly, a Deathstrike Launcher seems like an acceptable investment for my Guard...

It will die long before it fires, mate. :(

You'd think that, but the only time I get good rolls seems to be when I've playtested a Deathstrike.

 Wilson wrote:
Well, 7th was fun while it lasted.


bye everyone!

Same here, cancelling skittarii order and switching to 30k permanently.

 SirDonlad wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
Well, 7th was fun while it lasted.


bye everyone!

Same here, cancelling skittarii order and switching to 30k permanently.

Until they release 30K eldar with the same weapon load outs

Whoops... there doesn't seem to be anything here.

 Sillycybin wrote:
I don't understand why people say things like this. This is mainly a building, painting and casual gaming hobby for fans of the warhammer 40k universe.

Games are social contracts between two people, meaning if someone is rocking you to hard constantly, you can simply ask them to tone it down and change their list.

You could not have been seriously involved in the hobby if your willing to drop it because of a change that is rumoured to occur in one edition, of (presumably) the many that an involved fan has played.

One of the few sensible posts I've seen during my time here. +1 sir.

What if, power gamers buy a bucket load of Windrider Jetbikes and fix Scatter Lasers onto all of them, only for 8th edition to roll around and GW to say 'you know what, let's remove Relentless from Bikes and see how the fanbase reacts?'

As DE, I'm not fussed, as Orks I'm not fussed, as Marines I'm slightly fussed but I don't play White Scars so Melta is still an option (get grav from Centurions) as Nids I'm not fussed but as someone who just bought a load of Windriders? I would pay GW to see that face

 Sillycybin wrote:
Games are social contracts between two people, meaning if someone is rocking you to hard constantly, you can simply ask them to tone it down and change their list.

And then they ignore your request for any reason and keep stomping you due to superior codex.

When a game stops being fun, walking away from it forever is a perfectly reasonable response, no matter how serious your involvement has been.

 Frozocrone wrote:
What if, power gamers buy a bucket load of Windrider Jetbikes and fix Scatter Lasers onto all of them, only for 8th edition to roll around and GW to say 'you know what, let's remove Relentless from Bikes and see how the fanbase reacts?'

As DE, I'm not fussed, as Orks I'm not fussed, as Marines I'm slightly fussed but I don't play White Scars so Melta is still an option (get grav from Centurions) as Nids I'm not fussed but as someone who just bought a load of Windriders? I would pay GW to see that face

They'll move to Shuriken Cannons, which are Assault weapons

Whoops... there doesn't seem to be anything here.

Caederes wrote:
EDIT: Lol, never mind. May as well be honest; I found this on another forum. No credit for me other than sharing it lol.

Page 30, Munitorum Report, top left section;

"The Eldar have more Destroyer Weapons than anyone else - Wraithguard, Wraithknights and D-cannons are going to wreak true destructive havoc!"

Good work GW

How much does anyone want to bet that the balancing factor there will be that Wraithguards will be moved up to Extremely Bulky and not be able to use transports - so they have d weapons at short range but footslog it.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
What if, power gamers buy a bucket load of Windrider Jetbikes and fix Scatter Lasers onto all of them, only for 8th edition to roll around and GW to say 'you know what, let's remove Relentless from Bikes and see how the fanbase reacts?'

As DE, I'm not fussed, as Orks I'm not fussed, as Marines I'm slightly fussed but I don't play White Scars so Melta is still an option (get grav from Centurions) as Nids I'm not fussed but as someone who just bought a load of Windriders? I would pay GW to see that face

They'll move to Shuriken Cannons, which are Assault weapons

Well that's just ruined my day :/ Aside everything else.

BRB taking my unboxed Necron stuff back to the store and putting my money somewhere else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Naaris wrote:

Caederes wrote:
EDIT: Lol, never mind. May as well be honest; I found this on another forum. No credit for me other than sharing it lol.

Page 30, Munitorum Report, top left section;

"The Eldar have more Destroyer Weapons than anyone else - Wraithguard, Wraithknights and D-cannons are going to wreak true destructive havoc!"

Good work GW

How much does anyone want to bet that the balancing factor there will be that Wraithguards will be moved up to Extremely Bulky and not be able to use transports - so they have d weapons at short range but footslog it.

Simple, ally some DE for an Archon w/ WWP. No Scatter DS solves that issue.

Of course, GW thinks in a vacuum

 Sillycybin wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
Well, 7th was fun while it lasted.


bye everyone!

Same here, cancelling skittarii order and switching to 30k permanently.

I don't understand why people say things like this. This is mainly a building, painting and casual gaming hobby for fans of the warhammer 40k universe.

Games are social contracts between two people, meaning if someone is rocking you to hard constantly, you can simply ask them to tone it down and change their list.

You could not have been seriously involved in the hobby if your willing to drop it because of a change that is rumoured to occur in one edition, of (presumably) the many that an involved fan has played.

Like I said in a thread down in general discussion, the people who are seriously considering leaving the game, it's not just about this one dex. That's the final straw. The game is pretty hopelessly unbalanced now, and getting worse with each release again, and that, coupled with the amount of money you spend on the game is enough to drive people away.

 Sillycybin wrote:


What kind of friends do you have?

Not everyone has the luxury to game with close friends. Pick up games, leagues, and tourneys are common ways many people get games in, all of which will involve a large amount of relative strangers to acquantances.

What stops you from playing with someone else instead of them?

Not everyone has the luxury of a dozen or more opponents to choose from at any given time. If my choice is to play a person with a strong list I have no hope against, or not play that night, the fault lies with the game.

Do you live on the moon with one other person and are eternally engaged in a game of 40k for the resources necessary for survival?

Do you live on Mars with a colony of perfect 40k opponents that think exactly like you and avoid every single possibility of cheesy or overpowered builds?

Your going to tell me that the only reason you ever played 40k was to win and not for the simple pleasure of owning a beautiful army of "your dudes" who fight in the wonderous universe that is 40k?

Which is a black and white way of arguing that point. Its much more nuanced than that, and you and I both know it. The game isn't all about winning, but I think a vast majority of people would be lying if they said they enjoyed losing every single game due to factors outside of their control. The visual appeal is one aspect of the enjoyment people get from 40k, and I imagine another equally important part is playing a game where player decisions during the game lead to a close, yet satisfying win or loss, not due to some inherent power level difference in factions.

No one enjoys being punished for liking a faction that is generally sub-par, and likewise, no one enjoys being the faction everyone frowns at because its just so powerful.

I might not quit the game. But I'll be very selective about who I play.

I'll also look for people who are selling their models on the cheap. I don't support this release so shan't be directly funding GW.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Sillycybin wrote:
Games are social contracts between two people, meaning if someone is rocking you to hard constantly, you can simply ask them to tone it down and change their list.

And then they ignore your request for any reason and keep stomping you due to superior codex.

When a game stops being fun, walking away from it forever is a perfectly reasonable response, no matter how serious your involvement has been.

Why not try playing against the models first before throwing your toys out of the pram though? At the end of the day everything's down to the dice roll.

 Sillycybin wrote:
I don't understand why people say things like this. This is mainly a building, painting and casual gaming hobby for fans of the warhammer 40k universe.

Games are social contracts between two people, meaning if someone is rocking you to hard constantly, you can simply ask them to tone it down and change their list.

That makes sense, but....why is this choice being foisted upon the players? When I play a game, I want to devise a list that uses models I like, and which I think will be effective. I want to turn up, play the game against my opponent, do my best to win while they do the same*, and win or lose based on my skill.

I don't want to play some weird parallel game of tinkering with my list so it doesn't pass some vague and hazy standard of "too good", or with negotiating with my opponent so that neither of us accidentally break the game. Apart from anything else, if I'm paying GW prices for my army book plus models (plus DLC cut from the army book), I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the writers and playtesters did their job of "make sure everything is worth the points value assigned to it".


* You will notice I did not use the phrase "at all costs", so I trust nobody will use that strawman.

Naaris wrote:

Caederes wrote:
EDIT: Lol, never mind. May as well be honest; I found this on another forum. No credit for me other than sharing it lol.

Page 30, Munitorum Report, top left section;

"The Eldar have more Destroyer Weapons than anyone else - Wraithguard, Wraithknights and D-cannons are going to wreak true destructive havoc!"

Good work GW

How much does anyone want to bet that the balancing factor there will be that Wraithguards will be moved up to Extremely Bulky and not be able to use transports - so they have d weapons at short range but footslog it.

That would make sense, but... they're aren't as big as Broadsides to justify that (they're a bit teeny taller than a farseer, IIRC)
I won't expect more bulkyness

Let us put it in a way that is expressively... slightly weaker. Let us say, for arguments sake, that GW did in fact put in a rule that said only on 6's do the hits count as destroyer HITS (and the reason it would be on hits is that I have no idea how it would work on a wound roll... what you wound on a 6 but now you have to roll on the D-chart and on a 1 it was discounted...so yes, it has to be hit). The problem would still be immense if still not in the slightest weaker. It is still a Strength 10 AP 1 shot, so that still hurts like hell and will instant kill most other models, but out of those shots you will get at least 1 roll of a 6 (statistically) - which then has a 5/6 chance to decimate anything it touches. Playing with some wound shenanigans, I can tell you to take the normal shots first... and then when your HQ is all alone, or something precious is coming up, the destroyer wound comes up. The squad has always been a scalpel of decimation, now its even sharper and scarier... which to me was unnecessary.

As for bikes I can only hope that is a misprint. There is no way that something that bad could actually go through playtesting. But playing 40k for many years and my faith has somewhat... diminished.

If this is the case, I might just - quite possibly for the first time ever - flat out refuse to play with that person. It is not that I will lose, I have lost many games, it is that I will lose with quite literally no hope of winning. At least with admechlance I can win with positioning and objectives, and other means. Seeing that codex entry leaves me with dread. How some people can say that it "only kills 25-30 marines" a turn is baffling to me - being that in most games ... at max.. there will be 50 - 60 marines (I am thinking full drop pod army)

Like I said before in this thread - I have slowly moved myself to other systems that I enjoy more. I have sold all but one of my armies (my heavily converted and thematic Heresy White Scars Army... used for 40k ) and moved to companies like spartan games. They are responsive in their forums, their models are gorgeoussss, and the games are actually quite balanced and fun (specifically Firestorm armada and planetfall). I have reserved myself to almost playing 40k at least once a month, or at tournaments, but honestly even that might change.

It sucks because I love the lore, the background, and I do love the models, but again pictures say 1000 words, and those pictures quite literally break the game.

BTW for those who say that scatter lasers do not rend do not realize the powers of warlocks.. and can cause those weapons to rend. So while they do take out a majority of infantry and light tanks fairly easily, with rends and 120 shots....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
What if, power gamers buy a bucket load of Windrider Jetbikes and fix Scatter Lasers onto all of them, only for 8th edition to roll around and GW to say 'you know what, let's remove Relentless from Bikes and see how the fanbase reacts?'

As DE, I'm not fussed, as Orks I'm not fussed, as Marines I'm slightly fussed but I don't play White Scars so Melta is still an option (get grav from Centurions) as Nids I'm not fussed but as someone who just bought a load of Windriders? I would pay GW to see that face

They'll move to Shuriken Cannons, which are Assault weapons

Well that's just ruined my day :/ Aside everything else.

BRB taking my unboxed Necron stuff back to the store and putting my money somewhere else.

Pick up some spartan games you won't be disappointed. Firestorm Armada is great - nothing is better than railgunning your opponent to death as they try to broadside you - damn dirty sorylians

 Sillycybin wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Sillycybin wrote:
Games are social contracts between two people, meaning if someone is rocking you to hard constantly, you can simply ask them to tone it down and change their list.

And then they ignore your request for any reason and keep stomping you due to superior codex.

.

What kind of friends do you have that would simply ignore your request? What a purely hypothetical senario. No one in the real world would ignore such a request from someone who is going to take the time to play a game of 40 with them.

What stops you from playing with someone else instead of them?

Do you live on the moon with one other person and are eternally engaged in a game of 40k for the resources necessary for survival?

Your going to tell me that the only reason you ever played 40k was to win and not for the simple pleasure of owning a beautiful army of "your dudes" who fight in the wonderous universe that is 40k?

Are you going to come back when the codex your playing becomes top dog in a latter edition? What kind of person does this make you?

Some of us would like to play pick up games wherever we go instead of in our safe and warm coccon of friendly gaming.

Although this entire discussion makes me feel like I'm on a starship slowly leaving Earth as it descends into nuclear war. I'm off to better worlds (games) and just feel sad for those trapped behind i nthe random mushroom clouds (of gakky rules).

 Sillycybin wrote:


I don't understand why people say things like this. This is mainly a building, painting and casual gaming hobby for fans of the warhammer 40k universe.

Games are social contracts between two people, meaning if someone is rocking you to hard constantly, you can simply ask them to tone it down and change their list.

You could not have been seriously involved in the hobby if your willing to drop it because of a change that is rumoured to occur in one edition, of (presumably) the many that an involved fan has played.

Even if the above assessment about what 40k is were correct (I'd argue many people don't see 40k that way), a casual game benefits just as much as a competitive game, because swirching stuff around comes with a significant $$ cost.

Is the casual Saim-Hann eldar fan who just wants to build and paint some eldar jetbikes and then casually game with friends supposed to do extensive research into the game mechanics to the point he realizes his fluffy jetbike army utterly wrecks most other fluffy and semi-competituve armies?

Lack of balance and social contract works in a game like d&d, where 'what you play is OP/UP' means grab a sheet of paper and make a new character ccharacter, nit in 40k, where 'grqbbing a new sheet of paper' involves spending a ton of $$$ on new models, and a ton of time in building/painting them

 Sillycybin wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
Well, 7th was fun while it lasted.


bye everyone!

Same here, cancelling skittarii order and switching to 30k permanently.

I don't understand why people say things like this. This is mainly a building, painting and casual gaming hobby for fans of the warhammer 40k universe.

Games are social contracts between two people, meaning if someone is rocking you to hard constantly, you can simply ask them to tone it down and change their list.

You could not have been seriously involved in the hobby if your willing to drop it because of a change that is rumoured to occur in one edition, of (presumably) the many that an involved fan has played.

Some people ( myself included) prefer tournement play. This sort of thing ruins that.

 Sillycybin wrote:

I don't understand why people say things like this. This is mainly a building, painting and casual gaming hobby for fans of the warhammer 40k universe.

Games are social contracts between two people, meaning if someone is rocking you to hard constantly, you can simply ask them to tone it down and change their list.

You could not have been seriously involved in the hobby if your willing to drop it because of a change that is rumoured to occur in one edition, of (presumably) the many that an involved fan has played.

While you do have a point to some extent, these changes seem to really have potential to invalidate whole armies. You don't have to play anyone you don't want to, but if there is no semblance at all of balance why would you even play for fun? You can only handicap yourself so much because you are basically not even playing.

Assuming the worst: A single squad of scatter jetbikes will nearly murder an entire 30 may ork boy squad in one turn. A single squad is hardly spamming and entirely makes sense to take if someone want to run any sort of Hann themed army. D- Weapons basically mean any unit that does not get a save is has a 5/6 chance of losing multiple hull points in a single turn. A regular D-Cannon will basically eliminate any AV14 near immediately. Any landraiders or Leman Russ tanks are basically pointless. No armored company no regular marine armies using the already weak land raider to fun play. An Iydanden army is supposed to have a lot of wraith units for its fluff which means to play one it is D party. How do you make one a fun list now that doesn't auto win?

The social contract thing only goes so far. If I go with what you are saying and be an eldar player, why should I buy a codex that I have to drastically alter to utilize properly. Even if I did alter it, who am I to decide what is good or bad related to design. Even if I do have a good idea, where am I going to find players that support that idea. There comes a point where the game becomes unplayable for a person. Right now it really suffers on the competitive side. With decurion and now potentially this as well it looks to be basically screwed on the fluff side as well. Time will tell, but it is looking pretty grim.

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Sillycybin wrote:
Games are social contracts between two people, meaning if someone is rocking you to hard constantly, you can simply ask them to tone it down and change their list.

And then they ignore your request for any reason and keep stomping you due to superior codex.

When a game stops being fun, walking away from it forever is a perfectly reasonable response, no matter how serious your involvement has been.

Why not try playing against the models first before throwing your toys out of the pram though? At the end of the day everything's down to the dice roll.

So let's play a game. You roll 2D6 and pick the highest, I'll roll 10D6 and pick the highest. It's all down to the dice though, so it's fair, right?

I knew my faith would one day be rewarded: Distortion Cannon for Life!

bwahahaha!

Side note: Has anyone else pieced together that the Wraith Knight might very well be swinging his D stick at initiative 5? Suck it, Imperial Knights.

Whoops... there doesn't seem to be anything here.

DCannon4Life wrote:
I knew my faith would one day be rewarded: Distortion Cannon for Life!

bwahahaha!

Side note: Has anyone else pieced together that the Wraith Knight might very well be swinging his D stick at initiative 5? Suck it, Imperial Knights.

Have you pieced together how no one will ever want to play against eldar again? Except maybe other eldar players? So both of your Wraith Knights can suck eachother?

 Sillycybin wrote:
Where have you all been for every edition of 40k? When has this game ever been "balanced"? Why leave now when heldrakes use to dominate the skies and invisible daemon princes of "you cant shoot me" existed?

Just because something is already broken, doesnt mean breaking it more makes it the same... New codices and editions should fix the game, not ruin the fun for more people

While it's one thing to enjoy playing with your friends and expecting them to always make the noble choice, is it really too much to ask for a balanced and properly play tested product?

This isn't some free steam game with no investment or effort required afterall. This is supposed to be a wargame that just so happens to have a tournament following and players who have invested multiple thousands of dollars and decades of their life playing.

 Sillycybin wrote:
Where have you all been for every edition of 40k? When has this game ever been "balanced"? Why leave now when heldrakes use to dominate the skies and invisible daemon princes of "you cant shoot me" existed?

Do you have a list of logical fallacies you pull out and start reciting whenever someone has a bit of a moan about GW?

 Sillycybin wrote:
Where have you all been for every edition of 40k? When has this game ever been "balanced"? Why leave now when heldrakes use to dominate the skies and invisible daemon princes of "you cant shoot me" existed?

You understand that there are a) degree of broken-ness, and b) that frustration can build up over time, and that eventually there's a breaking point for people?

If you don't understand these concepts, let me know, I'll gladly explain them more.

*Edit* Dammit, Thud's response was better.

Whoops... there doesn't seem to be anything here.

 Sillycybin wrote:
Where have you all been for every edition of 40k? When has this game ever been "balanced"? Why leave now when heldrakes use to dominate the skies and invisible daemon princes of "you cant shoot me" existed?

Because it's getting worse with each release, when it should be getting better, along with prices creeping up? That not a good enough reason? On top of that there's a lot of alternatives to GW these days, made by companies who give a crap about balance, and in my opinion do much more to deserve my money than GW does. But no because it's always been unbalanced that's unreasonable...

Like Blacksails said, it builds up, and eventually it's too much for people.

 Sillycybin wrote:

 Thud wrote:

 Sillycybin wrote:
Where have you all been for every edition of 40k? When has this game ever been "balanced"? Why leave now when heldrakes use to dominate the skies and invisible daemon princes of "you cant shoot me" existed?

Do you have a list of logical fallacies you pull out and start reciting whenever someone has a bit of a moan about GW?

Ad hominem is what you are doing right now, Ironic.

No. An ad hominem argument is when you ignore the opposing argument and attack the person making it instead.

My post was not an ad hominem argument, because it did not ignore your argument, quite the opposite, it was a criticism of your argument.

Try harder. Preferably in a different thread.

 Sillycybin wrote:


Ad hominem is what you are doing right now, Ironic.

Pointing out your usage of logical fallacies is hardly an ad hominem.

D weapons on regular units goes too far. It is no longer only hurting the tourney scene like the cent star, it completely blasts any casual game involving eldar.

I'm going to wait for the exact rules and points costs, but if things stay as they are then GW officially eliminated a faction from the game.

Some people are suspecting that D-weapons will only act as Destroyer weapons on a roll of 6.

Even if that's the case, it's still pretty ridiculous. I honestly kind of feel bad for Eldar players. Codices that are too powerful are almost as bad as codices that are too weak. Almost.

Spoletta wrote:
D weapons on regular units goes too far. It is no longer only hurting the tourney scene like the cent star, it completely blasts any casual game involving eldar.

I'm going to wait for the exact rules and points costs, but if things stay as they are then GW officially eliminated a faction from the game.

As an Eldar player, this is what annoys me the most. All my favourite units, including the jetbikes I've been eagerly awaiting for years, are pretty much off limits if I actually want someone to play against me outside of a tournament. And in addition, if Eldar remains the undisputed super-cheese army, I get to look forward to potential opponents scrutinizing and feeling entitled to approve my army list before every game, so if I make my list more powerful than an undisclosed limit I get to be the douche no one wants to play. Hooray!

After gathering my thoughts I think I will play against the Eldar once just to see how good they are.

Granted, it's a lot of firepower. But how easy is it to kill T4 3+ these days?

I think GW intended to make them a bit like DEldar, fragile but hard hitting (that was my main gripe with the WS, it's hard hitting but durable).

Do I think GW know what they are doing? On paper no. Am I defending GW? No, definitely not on paper. But experience will help me form an opinion on whether to continue playing.

What if the troops have destroyer weapons, but are AP-? Many of you are over reacting to information that isn't yet clear.

Calm down.

 Sillycybin wrote:

 Thud wrote:

 Sillycybin wrote:
Where have you all been for every edition of 40k? When has this game ever been "balanced"? Why leave now when heldrakes use to dominate the skies and invisible daemon princes of "you cant shoot me" existed?

Do you have a list of logical fallacies you pull out and start reciting whenever someone has a bit of a moan about GW?

Ad hominem is what you are doing right now, Ironic.

I simply want an understanding of why people announce they are leaving this hobby for a silly reason like some new rules pop up. Apparently, given the answers I have been receiving, it is because reasonable players are incredible rare.

People are leaving because the rules are getting ridiculous... In a year or so every army will run around with D weapons on every unit and games will end on turn 3 max... I would also argue that the players leaving are more reasonable than players like you who just choose to ignore OP units and make the game fun for themselves and their friends. All units from a codex should be usable without making the game so one sided the other person has to ask you to stop using it. The hobby is just way to expensive for that... Yeah that 60$ codex you bought, could you please stop using half of it? Also could you stop using that 110$ model, its a bit too strong.... Thats not reasonable, thats just stupid.

 Cieged wrote:
What if the troops have destroyer weapons, but are AP-? Many of you are over reacting to information that isn't yet clear.

Calm down.

Does AP have any bearing on destroyer weapons?

 Cieged wrote:
What if the troops have destroyer weapons, but are AP-? Many of you are over reacting to information that isn't yet clear.

Calm down.

This could easily be the catch. Sure it would be awful for vehicles, but D weapons do not grant any AP on their own. If those things were AP- i could see them being strong but balanced (and another huge stake in the back for vehicles).

Edit: There again the 6 on the table is still there and still a problem.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Cieged wrote:
What if the troops have destroyer weapons, but are AP-? Many of you are over reacting to information that isn't yet clear.

Calm down.

Does AP have any bearing on destroyer weapons?

on anything other than a 6 AP has a bearing. if you roll a 6 on the D table no saves of any kind.

Don't the wraith weapons already have that rule on a 6 though?

Maybe we will see a minor D rule for some models? Roll on the D chart with a -1 modifier?

There are many ways that the day can still be saved, let's just wait.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nvs wrote:
Don't the wraith weapons already have that rule on a 6 though?

Right now the have ID on 6. They are always AP2.

What it would change with D is that on 6 they negate invul and cover and delete vehicles.

When do we expect actual codex leaks?

Please explain to me that a roll of a double 6 on a Wraithguard can instakill my Landraider and that AP- is somehow the redeeming factor

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
I want to say this is a cash-grabbing move on GW's part, but as the saying goes: "Never ascribe to malice that which can equaly be explained by incompetence."

Normally I'd agree but when it comes to Eldar there is definitely an agenda there, they have always had a very powerful codex(or at least able to take very powerful builds from their codex) and usually written by big Eldar fans (e.g. Phil and Gav)

If anyone is rage quitting 40k , please msg me and I will consider purchasing your army at a fair price.

At least the D part will be relatively low impact, since I imagine a lot of events are going to go with the 'No ranged D' thing.

 Thairne wrote:
Please explain to me that a roll of a double 6 on a Wraithguard can instakill my Landraider and that AP- is somehow the redeeming factor

Double six would instakill a STOMPA.

Eldar have always been one of the more powerful armies.

Any word on the Windriders armour save? I'm hoping it's a 4+.

When reality itself doesn't exist anymore, your landraider probably doesn't, either.

From a fluff perspective, it makes sense.

From a gameplay perspective, Serpents make it effective, and WWP makes it a slightly better Melta drop than they already were.

WWP wraiths were already stupid, both fluffwise and gamewise.

Basically, its just a 1/6 to ignore Cover and Invulns, and I think EW. And instead of fishing for Explodes.

Wow. That took an age to catch up. I was only offline for 12 hours

If anyone is around the southeast of England and wants a game I will always play against them. That is the point, isn't it?

I have Deathwing (with the 2+3++ on a lot of the units laser really just sting a little), Flying Elysians (good luck snap shooting and glancing me to death with your 160 shots), Armoured company (AV14 and re-roll cover save blasts) and Flesh Tearers (Fast moving and once I am in combat you had better hope you have hit and run)

That being said I do play Eldar, (4xSpiritseers, Wraithguard/Blades, 2 Serpents, Wraithknight, 2xWraithlords). I wont modify my list much I reckon, no bikes for me as it don't really fit my theme...

If someone refuses to play me then that is the kind of player I don't really want to know. I look at the big thing on the table as a challenge (be it a Knight (or 5!!!), GMC or Baneblade variant, even have a Fellblade in my local gaming group)

So bring it on...

9unit9 wrote:
Wow. That took an age to catch up. I was only offline for 12 hours

If anyone is around the southeast of England and wants a game I will always play against them. That is the point, isn't it?

I have Deathwing (with the 2+3++ on a lot of the units laser really just sting a little), Flying Elysians (good luck snap shooting and glancing me to death with your 160 shots), Armoured company (AV14 and re-roll cover save blasts) and Flesh Tearers (Fast moving and once I am in combat you had better hope you have hit and run)

That being said I do play Eldar, (4xSpiritseers, Wraithguard/Blades, 2 Serpents, Wraithknight, 2xWraithlords). I wont modify my list much I reckon, no bikes for me as it don't really fit my theme...

If someone refuses to play me then that is the kind of player I don't really want to know. I look at the big thing on the table as a challenge (be it a Knight (or 5!!!), GMC or Baneblade variant, even have a Fellblade in my local gaming group)

So bring it on...

Too bad that eldar list is now unbound.

 pretre wrote:
At least the D part will be relatively low impact, since I imagine a lot of events are going to go with the 'No ranged D' thing.

I predict they will have to revisit this unless they are prepared to start banning units wholesale. It's fairly difficult to tell someone who has a fluffy Iyanden army they can't play.

 Sarigar wrote:

 pretre wrote:
At least the D part will be relatively low impact, since I imagine a lot of events are going to go with the 'No ranged D' thing.

I predict they will have to revisit this unless they are prepared to start banning units wholesale. It's fairly difficult to tell someone who has a fluffy Iyanden army they can't play.

Not really that difficult when that fluffy Iyanden army has twenty to thirty D weapons in it. It's either that or lose serious other attendance when the first ITC event has a top 10 of Eldar.

Hollismason wrote:
Eldar have always been one of the more powerful armies.

Any word on the Windriders armour save? I'm hoping it's a 4+.

Per the WD, no stats or points have changed, just the addition of adding a Shuriken Cannon or Scatterlaser for 10 points per bike.

Hollismason wrote:
Eldar have always been one of the more powerful armies.

Any word on the Windriders armour save? I'm hoping it's a 4+.

The video in this thread shows it as having remained 3+.

As I've said before in other threads, we don't have the full amount of information yet. Also, Hanlon's razor forces me to assume incompetence on GW's part in the WD article. We get to malice if the codex comes out and the offending rules are still like this. I'm willing to be that the "Any" is a misprint and that regular Wraithguard will receive a different sort of weapon to keep them about in the same place in terms of power.

 Thud wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
D weapons on regular units goes too far. It is no longer only hurting the tourney scene like the cent star, it completely blasts any casual game involving eldar.

I'm going to wait for the exact rules and points costs, but if things stay as they are then GW officially eliminated a faction from the game.

As an Eldar player, this is what annoys me the most. All my favourite units, including the jetbikes I've been eagerly awaiting for years, are pretty much off limits if I actually want someone to play against me outside of a tournament. And in addition, if Eldar remains the undisputed super-cheese army, I get to look forward to potential opponents scrutinizing and feeling entitled to approve my army list before every game, so if I make my list more powerful than an undisclosed limit I get to be the douche no one wants to play. Hooray!

My thoughts exactly. Exalted. I used to only bring two Wave Serpents to regularly get pickup games. What now? Limits on jetbikes? Saim-Hann players are probably weeping tears of anger for the amount of cheese people will attribute to their favorite army. To everyone complaining about Eldar ITT, your complaints are valid, but think of it like this: if your army was suddenly thought of as being so cheesy that nobody in their right mind would play it, how many games would you get even if you didn't use the cheese?

Also, the blatant moneygrab on GW's part for the detachments also makes me mad. They're throwing together all of the sub-optimal units that WAAC cheesemongers didn't buy into one formation as the core. I'm better positioned than most, but I'll still need to pick up Vypers and Vaul's Wrath just to run it. For me, the detachment won't be useful unless the benefits were made of unused spirit stones.

And how many people would still complain about "the elf cheese"?

Not my idea (stole it from someone else on DakkaDakka) - but I wholeheartedly agree....

My current view of 40k. I will keep playing every now and then... but....

Hollismason wrote:
Eldar have always been one of the more powerful armies.

Any word on the Windriders armour save? I'm hoping it's a 4+.

They have a 3+ armour save, Eldar Jetbikes still provide a 3+ armour save.

9unit9 wrote:

I have Deathwing (with the 2+3++ on a lot of the units laser really just sting a little)

Ever heard of weight of fire?
That "stings a little" will average to 0.37 unsaved wounds per bike.
10 of these jetbikes, for a cost of 270pts, will kill 3.7 terminators on average due to weight of fire.
While having all the eldar perks.
Your terminators will get one round of shooting and then slog after them, never getting another shot in.
So 2 turns and you're down 250+ points and he won't have suffered a single HIT.

 Thairne wrote:
Please explain to me that a roll of a double 6 on a Wraithguard can instakill my Landraider and that AP- is somehow the redeeming factor

Ah, that's a good point. Land raiders wouldn't be winning tournaments anymore. Good catch!

Per leaks, it looks like fluffy Iyanden may not be battle forged at all. Wraiths will be Elites, almost certainly, and the new formation requires Guardians of some flavor.

So pure Spirit Host will likely be Unbound, which is even less accepted than Ranged D.

At least pure Swordwind can still do CAD (unless DAs are Elites now, but I doubt that)

Spoletta wrote:

9unit9 wrote:
That being said I do play Eldar, (4xSpiritseers, Wraithguard/Blades, 2 Serpents, Wraithknight, 2xWraithlords). I wont modify my list much I reckon, no bikes for me as it don't really fit my theme...

If someone refuses to play me then that is the kind of player I don't really want to know. I look at the big thing on the table as a challenge (be it a Knight (or 5!!!), GMC or Baneblade variant, even have a Fellblade in my local gaming group)

So bring it on...

Too bad that eldar list is now unbound.

I would assume his viewpoint of "I don't want to know you" extends to those who want more than the lipservice of balance and organization that unbound presents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cieged wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Please explain to me that a roll of a double 6 on a Wraithguard can instakill my Landraider and that AP- is somehow the redeeming factor

Ah, that's a good point. Land raiders wouldn't be winning tournaments anymore. Good catch!

Have they been? I haven't seen anyone complaining about land raider spam since 4th edition.

We seem to have taken something of a diversion there a few pages back, it'd be better all around if we perhaps took the enthralling analysis and yelling at each other elsewhere and left this thread free for the actual news/rumours people are so keen to read.

Thank you.

 pretre wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:

 pretre wrote:
At least the D part will be relatively low impact, since I imagine a lot of events are going to go with the 'No ranged D' thing.

I predict they will have to revisit this unless they are prepared to start banning units wholesale. It's fairly difficult to tell someone who has a fluffy Iyanden army they can't play.

Not really that difficult when that fluffy Iyanden army has twenty to thirty D weapons in it. It's either that or lose serious other attendance when the first ITC event has a top 10 of Eldar.

And he gets rolled by a Greentide list who doesn't care about massed Str D. I doubt very much it would lose much attendance. But, I can appreciate all the anger as most folks were praying Eldar got nerfed, but learning that may not be the case.

Here Reds8n - we have been debating it here - so if you guys want move that discussion over here

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/644658.page

Okay so it looks like i'll never play eldar players ever, lol. And gw was doing so well with skitarii, they looked balanced, unique and fun. Good things my local store will most likely just ban all this nonsense from tournaments.

Caederes wrote:
As far as Wraithguard are concerned, before you start laughing, why not check the facts?
The White Dwarf article states that all Distortion weapons are Destroyer weapons. All Wraithguard weapons are Distortion weapons as of the 6th Edition codex. Put two and two together.

While true, there's nothing that prevents them 'soft-changing' Wraithguard weaponry in the new Codex. They wield a Wraithcannon; which may well not 'count' as a D-weapon, despite the background. Just look at how Tau Broadsides' guns changed from Railcannons; or how Veterans turned into Sternguard and Vanguard for some examples of how the rules can streamline or diversify old truths.

The D-scythe is on the sprues, but there's nothing stopping them from changing the name in the Codex to 'Wraithscythe' or altering the background to say D-scythes use similar technologies to D-cannons, but not of the same magnitude.

I can quite believe the aircraft and Wraithknight get general access to D-weapons; I suspect there'll be a twist that stops Wraithguard getting 'em. Of course, that's nothing more than supposition on my part, but I'm not going to get my bionics in a twist just yet

 TheNewBlood wrote:
As I've said before in other threads, we don't have the full amount of information yet. Also, Hanlon's razor forces me to assume incompetence on GW's part in the WD article. We get to malice if the codex comes out and the offending rules are still like this. I'm willing to be that the "Any" is a misprint and that regular Wraithguard will receive a different sort of weapon to keep them about in the same place in terms of power.

 Thud wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
D weapons on regular units goes too far. It is no longer only hurting the tourney scene like the cent star, it completely blasts any casual game involving eldar.

I'm going to wait for the exact rules and points costs, but if things stay as they are then GW officially eliminated a faction from the game.

As an Eldar player, this is what annoys me the most. All my favourite units, including the jetbikes I've been eagerly awaiting for years, are pretty much off limits if I actually want someone to play against me outside of a tournament. And in addition, if Eldar remains the undisputed super-cheese army, I get to look forward to potential opponents scrutinizing and feeling entitled to approve my army list before every game, so if I make my list more powerful than an undisclosed limit I get to be the douche no one wants to play. Hooray!

My thoughts exactly. Exalted. I used to only bring two Wave Serpents to regularly get pickup games. What now? Limits on jetbikes? Saim-Hann players are probably weeping tears of anger for the amount of cheese people will attribute to their favorite army. To everyone complaining about Eldar ITT, your complaints are valid, but think of it like this: if your army was suddenly thought of as being so cheesy that nobody in their right mind would play it, how many games would you get even if you didn't use the cheese?

Also, the blatant moneygrab on GW's part for the detachments also makes me mad. They're throwing together all of the sub-optimal units that WAAC cheesemongers didn't buy into one formation as the core. I'm better positioned than most, but I'll still need to pick up Vypers and Vaul's Wrath just to run it. For me, the detachment won't be useful unless the benefits were made of unused spirit stones.

And how many people would still complain about "the elf cheese"?

There's no problem imo with regular bikes. They've always been good, and now they're about the same as ever. I doubt anyone would have a problem if you had one or two SLasers and the rest were just normal bikes, just like one or two Wave Serpents were acceptable.

Eldar thread: godsdammit why all the D weapons?
Forgeworld thread: Ooh, Warlord Titans...

Requizen wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
As I've said before in other threads, we don't have the full amount of information yet. Also, Hanlon's razor forces me to assume incompetence on GW's part in the WD article. We get to malice if the codex comes out and the offending rules are still like this. I'm willing to be that the "Any" is a misprint and that regular Wraithguard will receive a different sort of weapon to keep them about in the same place in terms of power.

 Thud wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
D weapons on regular units goes too far. It is no longer only hurting the tourney scene like the cent star, it completely blasts any casual game involving eldar.

I'm going to wait for the exact rules and points costs, but if things stay as they are then GW officially eliminated a faction from the game.

As an Eldar player, this is what annoys me the most. All my favourite units, including the jetbikes I've been eagerly awaiting for years, are pretty much off limits if I actually want someone to play against me outside of a tournament. And in addition, if Eldar remains the undisputed super-cheese army, I get to look forward to potential opponents scrutinizing and feeling entitled to approve my army list before every game, so if I make my list more powerful than an undisclosed limit I get to be the douche no one wants to play. Hooray!

My thoughts exactly. Exalted. I used to only bring two Wave Serpents to regularly get pickup games. What now? Limits on jetbikes? Saim-Hann players are probably weeping tears of anger for the amount of cheese people will attribute to their favorite army. To everyone complaining about Eldar ITT, your complaints are valid, but think of it like this: if your army was suddenly thought of as being so cheesy that nobody in their right mind would play it, how many games would you get even if you didn't use the cheese?

Also, the blatant moneygrab on GW's part for the detachments also makes me mad. They're throwing together all of the sub-optimal units that WAAC cheesemongers didn't buy into one formation as the core. I'm better positioned than most, but I'll still need to pick up Vypers and Vaul's Wrath just to run it. For me, the detachment won't be useful unless the benefits were made of unused spirit stones.

And how many people would still complain about "the elf cheese"?

There's no problem imo with regular bikes. They've always been good, and now they're about the same as ever. I doubt anyone would have a problem if you had one or two SLasers and the rest were just normal bikes, just like one or two Wave Serpents were acceptable.

Unfortunately what usually happens is:

You got 1 OP unit in the codex ---> You are that guy if you play that codex

Try asking that to any tyranid player, they got one model overshadowing all the others and the rest of the codex on an average/low level. Even if you fetch a win without using a single flyrant you still won thanks to the FOTM.

 Apologist wrote:

Caederes wrote:
As far as Wraithguard are concerned, before you start laughing, why not check the facts?
The White Dwarf article states that all Distortion weapons are Destroyer weapons. All Wraithguard weapons are Distortion weapons as of the 6th Edition codex. Put two and two together.

While true, there's nothing that prevents them 'soft-changing' Wraithguard weaponry in the new Codex. They wield a Wraithcannon; which may well not 'count' as a D-weapon, despite the background. Just look at how Tau Broadsides' guns changed from Railcannons; or how Veterans turned into Sternguard and Vanguard for some examples of how the rules can streamline or diversify old truths.

The D-scythe is on the sprues, but there's nothing stopping them from changing the name in the Codex to 'Wraithscythe' or altering the background to say D-scythes use similar technologies to D-cannons, but not of the same magnitude.

I can quite believe the aircraft and Wraithknight get general access to D-weapons; I suspect there'll be a twist that stops Wraithguard getting 'em. Of course, that's nothing more than supposition on my part, but I'm not going to get my bionics in a twist just yet

Errrr......clearly you haven't seen that picture I found.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Thud wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
D weapons on regular units goes too far. It is no longer only hurting the tourney scene like the cent star, it completely blasts any casual game involving eldar.

I'm going to wait for the exact rules and points costs, but if things stay as they are then GW officially eliminated a faction from the game.

As an Eldar player, this is what annoys me the most. All my favourite units, including the jetbikes I've been eagerly awaiting for years, are pretty much off limits if I actually want someone to play against me outside of a tournament. And in addition, if Eldar remains the undisputed super-cheese army, I get to look forward to potential opponents scrutinizing and feeling entitled to approve my army list before every game, so if I make my list more powerful than an undisclosed limit I get to be the douche no one wants to play. Hooray!

My thoughts exactly. Exalted. I used to only bring two Wave Serpents to regularly get pickup games. What now? Limits on jetbikes? Saim-Hann players are probably weeping tears of anger for the amount of cheese people will attribute to their favorite army. To everyone complaining about Eldar ITT, your complaints are valid, but think of it like this: if your army was suddenly thought of as being so cheesy that nobody in their right mind would play it, how many games would you get even if you didn't use the cheese?

I experienced this twice: the beginning of 6th when CronAir was the main power and when the 7th Ed. Necron 'dex came out. I feel your pain, it sucks. I don't even attempt to use be really bad cron list anymore because people hate them so much.

If you play orks, though, everyone loves you

Caederes wrote:

 Apologist wrote:

Caederes wrote:
As far as Wraithguard are concerned, before you start laughing, why not check the facts?
The White Dwarf article states that all Distortion weapons are Destroyer weapons. All Wraithguard weapons are Distortion weapons as of the 6th Edition codex. Put two and two together.

While true, there's nothing that prevents them 'soft-changing' Wraithguard weaponry in the new Codex. They wield a Wraithcannon; which may well not 'count' as a D-weapon, despite the background. Just look at how Tau Broadsides' guns changed from Railcannons; or how Veterans turned into Sternguard and Vanguard for some examples of how the rules can streamline or diversify old truths.

The D-scythe is on the sprues, but there's nothing stopping them from changing the name in the Codex to 'Wraithscythe' or altering the background to say D-scythes use similar technologies to D-cannons, but not of the same magnitude.

I can quite believe the aircraft and Wraithknight get general access to D-weapons; I suspect there'll be a twist that stops Wraithguard getting 'em. Of course, that's nothing more than supposition on my part, but I'm not going to get my bionics in a twist just yet

Errrr......clearly you haven't seen that picture I found.

I'm not all that surprised. When people saw that the Necron's Reanimation Protocols was only ignored by D-weapons, I mentioned something to the effect that we would see more in the future (don't remember if it was on here or another forum).

The release schedule that has been surprisingly correct so far puts a new Space Marines codex out this year, with the possibility of CSM, DA, and Tau as well. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the new power level of the game when they come out.

If D is for "D-weapon", are demolisher cannons going to become Destroyer too? If so, I would be allll for that. Heck, why not make all guns that start with the letter "D" a destroyer weapon?

 TheCustomLime wrote:
If D is for "D-weapon", are demolisher cannons going to become Destroyer too? If so, I would be allll for that. Heck, why not make all guns that start with the letter "D" a destroyer weapon?

Tyranid Devourer Termagants suddenly became very scary

 TheCustomLime wrote:
If D is for "D-weapon", are demolisher cannons going to become Destroyer too? If so, I would be allll for that. Heck, why not make all guns that start with the letter "D" a destroyer weapon?

Devourers?

Why not? It makes just as much sense as making Distortion weapons Destroyer.

 Verviedi wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
If D is for "D-weapon", are demolisher cannons going to become Destroyer too? If so, I would be allll for that. Heck, why not make all guns that start with the letter "D" a destroyer weapon?

Devourers?

D-evourers, now boasting 3 Strength D AP- shots.

Requizen wrote:


The release schedule that has been surprisingly correct so far puts a new Space Marines codex out this year, with the possibility of CSM, DA, and Tau as well. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the new power level of the game when they come out.

How long have people been saying that? When does it ever pan out?

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Why not? It makes just as much sense as making Distortion weapons Destroyer.

Distortion weapons literally teleport chunks of reality into the Warp. Sound pretty Destroyer-esque to me.

Caederes wrote:

 Apologist wrote:
I can quite believe the aircraft and Wraithknight get general access to D-weapons; I suspect there'll be a twist that stops Wraithguard getting 'em. Of course, that's nothing more than supposition on my part, but I'm not going to get my bionics in a twist just yet

Errrr......clearly you haven't seen that picture I found.

Hat firmly eaten!

Requizen wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Why not? It makes just as much sense as making Distortion weapons Destroyer.

Distortion weapons literally teleport chunks of reality into the Warp. Sound pretty Destroyer-esque to me.

And Baneblade cannons fire massive rocket propelled shells to blow the ever loving crap out of whatever they are being pointed at. A Distortion weapon may teleport a chunk out of a tank to disable it. A Baneblade cannon will just blow up the tank into a million pieces. Destroyer-weapons should be reserved for the biggest and most destructive weaponry in 40k. Sure, you can justify it in the lore but it's just bad game design to give superheavy like firepower to just regular guys such as Wraithguard.

Chad Warden wrote:

Requizen wrote:


The release schedule that has been surprisingly correct so far puts a new Space Marines codex out this year, with the possibility of CSM, DA, and Tau as well. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the new power level of the game when they come out.

How long have people been saying that? When does it ever pan out?

Also the Skitarii codex just came out and is most certainly not on this power level.

Mymearan wrote:

Chad Warden wrote:

Requizen wrote:


The release schedule that has been surprisingly correct so far puts a new Space Marines codex out this year, with the possibility of CSM, DA, and Tau as well. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the new power level of the game when they come out.

How long have people been saying that? When does it ever pan out?

Also the Skitarii codex just came out and is most certainly not on this power level.

Skitarii is to Militarum Tempestus as AdMech is to Astra Militarum. While Astra Militarum isn't a particularly OP book, it is head and shoulders stronger than Militarum Tempestus.

Well we just had Khorne Daemonkin and that changed barely anything from the equivalent units in CD and CSM, so I dont see those updated anytime soon, and if they are it would be the exact same profiles.

Chad Warden wrote:
Well we just had Khorne Daemonkin and that changed barely anything from the equivalent units in CD and CSM, so I dont see those updated anytime soon, and if they are it would be the exact same profiles.

They completely removed demonic instability. that is huge bud.

And you get free new and improved bloodthirsters that you paid no points for. That sounds significant too.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
If D is for "D-weapon", are demolisher cannons going to become Destroyer too? If so, I would be allll for that. Heck, why not make all guns that start with the letter "D" a destroyer weapon?

Dark Lances and Disintegrators...
The Dark Eldar approve of this line of thinking....

 Anglacon wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
If D is for "D-weapon", are demolisher cannons going to become Destroyer too? If so, I would be allll for that. Heck, why not make all guns that start with the letter "D" a destroyer weapon?

Dark Lances and Disintegrators...
The Dark Eldar approve of this line of thinking....

Da Gunz for da Orkz

Caederes wrote:

Errrr......clearly you haven't seen that picture I found.

Eldar: Most D weapons, best psykers, most mobile, most str 6 spam, JSJ and highly durable units.......zzzzzzzz.

What do the other armies get again?

Will D-scythes count as destroyer weapons? D weapon flamers would be incredibly scary.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Chad Warden wrote:
Well we just had Khorne Daemonkin and that changed barely anything from the equivalent units in CD and CSM, so I dont see those updated anytime soon, and if they are it would be the exact same profiles.

They completely removed demonic instability. that is huge bud.

They kept the same profiles and points costs and changed a few (very significant)special rules

The point being, if CSM are coming soon they will be exactly the same weapons, profiles and points costs as Daemonikin (so mediocre and nothing like on the power level of new Eldar).

Plot twist: In 2016 they will progress the story of 40k to the year 43k and kill of smelldar!

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Anglacon wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
If D is for "D-weapon", are demolisher cannons going to become Destroyer too? If so, I would be allll for that. Heck, why not make all guns that start with the letter "D" a destroyer weapon?

Dark Lances and Disintegrators...
The Dark Eldar approve of this line of thinking....

Da Gunz for da Orkz

Dakkagunz

How has it been confirmed that the sword will swing at initiative 1?

im quite annoyed I have been waiting for new bikes for years, so I can make a bike army, but now the rules have been announced everyone is raging.
I planed to buy two units of these before the rule leaks. Now I don't know what to do. I only have enough time and money for one army and I love Eldar, but it seems as an Eldar player I wont get any games now. iv been an Eldar player since 5th ED now I feel like i'm in a tricky situation.

People expected Eldar to get toned down. Why? Look at the Necrons book, the took out MSS on lords, the dlord joining wraiths and bumped the price up on fliers, everything else got better or stayed the same. Why would folks think after the last Cron book this would happen to eldar? GW is releasing 1 model type for this codex, new bikes, they want them to sell.

How are jetbikes used currently. The are still cheap and you can have 1 shuriken cannons per 3 bikes. No one takes the shuriken cannons and no one takes more than 3 bikes. 2x3 bikes as core, reserve them, have them hug table edges/terrain and just take objectives. Why not take 6 now with 2 shuriken cannons? Well they have ldr 8, have a larger footprint, are easier to shoot and there are better units to take that can do damage.

Now lets say we give each of those 6 bikes scatter lasers. The unit does 24 str 6 ap - shots. But the unit costs 200 pts. 24 shots hit 16 times, wounds 14 times, kills 4-5 marines. For 200 pts you could take 10 warp spiders, they have 3+ armor, shoot 20 str 6 ap 5 plus the bladestorm ap 2 wounding hits, can deep strike, can teleport and have ldr 9 as opposed to 8 and their footprint is MUCH smaller than 6 bikes. Personally am I going to trust 200 pts to ldr 8? No way. Would I make a unit of 10 with 10 scatter lasers? No, the footprint would be huge and vulnerable to blasts, they can't fight their way out of close combat (which it is easy to get them into with how big the unit would be) and I would have to justify putting a farseer in the unit just to give it ldr 10 and now it has gotten to be a 500 pt unit. You wont see any units this big. Warwalkers have 6 scatter lasers for around 210 pts which is only 10 pts more than the bikes, they dont have ldr issues to worry about, they can outflank or scout and they have a 5+ invul. Do you see warwalkers in all the net lists now- no, but if the bikes are that good why wouldnt war walkers be that good?

How do I envision people using them- I cant say, but I would simply take small squads still and give them shuriken cannons. So now I will spend 81 pts on 3 bikes with 9 str 6 shots- but remember, that same squad could have had 3, so is it really that bad? Now when I lose a model and the rest run off the board, I have spent more points that aren't used elsewhere. Personally, I still think I would rather have 5 man squads of warp spiders running around the board than 4 man squads of jetbikes with shuriken cannons, they take up less board space so they can hide more easily, they teleport around and they have hit and run so they can get out of combat. 5 spiders is 95 with 10 shots, 4 bikes is 108 with 12 shots but the bikes have more disadvantages, the only difference is they are troops.

Now am I saying bikes are bad? No of course not, I am just saying other than being troops, they arent much/any worse than several other options now. I think the only thing you will see is people taking less of the other good stuff and instead putting those points into bikes, in the end, maybe it will change the netlists a bit, they wont be better than they are now, but they wont be worse.

I can see the Scythed Hierodule making a comeback if these bikes are really everywhere. Hellstorm AP3 template sounds pretty good right now, especially with shrouded cover for the first round of attacks.

sturguard wrote:

People expected Eldar to get toned down. Why? Look at the Necrons book, the took out MSS on lords, the dlord joining wraiths and bumped the price up on fliers, everything else got better or stayed the same. Why would folks think after the last Cron book this would happen to eldar? GW is releasing 1 model type for this codex, new bikes, they want them to sell.

Because since Necrons, there have been 3 more books(Harlequin, Skitarii, and Khorne Daemonkin) which have all been fairly balanced?

The original Distortion Cannons -- you got a saving throw for getting out of the way, but it wouldn't matter how many wounds you had if you didn't. *poof*. And it was a 2" radius.

Of course, Space Marines got them too...

Red Eye- buy your bikes, it isnt that big a deal- the jetbikes arent world changing.

 Blacksails wrote:
Some people are suspecting that D-weapons will only act as Destroyer weapons on a roll of 6.

Even if that's the case, it's still pretty ridiculous. I honestly kind of feel bad for Eldar players. Codices that are too powerful are almost as bad as codices that are too weak. Almost.

worse for trying to play pick up games for fun, In the tourney scene they will be a top choice. I thougt I had it bad before trying to get games, now it'll just be plain impossible. not that I'd take more than one unit in a fun game anyway.

 Kanluwen wrote:

sturguard wrote:

People expected Eldar to get toned down. Why? Look at the Necrons book, the took out MSS on lords, the dlord joining wraiths and bumped the price up on fliers, everything else got better or stayed the same. Why would folks think after the last Cron book this would happen to eldar? GW is releasing 1 model type for this codex, new bikes, they want them to sell.

Because since Necrons, there have been 3 more books(Harlequin, Skitarii, and Khorne Daemonkin) which have all been fairly balanced?

The Skitarii look awful nasty, I dont think they are toned down. Harlequins and Daemonkin are unique releases, they are an army yes, but not a typical full codex. Most people are not going to take a full army of Harlequins, most will take a single formation.

 RED EYE JEDI wrote:
im quite annoyed I have been waiting for new bikes for years, so I can make a bike army, but now the rules have been announced everyone is raging.
I planed to buy two units of these before the rule leaks. Now I don't know what to do. I only have enough time and money for one army and I love Eldar, but it seems as an Eldar player I wont get any games now. iv been an Eldar player since 5th ED now I feel like i'm in a tricky situation.

Meh, I'm a Daemon player and still getting non-stop flak for that one summer in '08 where we utterly broke Fantasy itself...

Now I just get flak for;
- 8th edition not "fixing" Daemons enough on its own...
- Our 8th edition army book still being the most OP book in 8th... (despite how utterly dysfunctional it is with barely half the units being actually playable)
- The WD rules for Screamers/Flamers fiasco...
- 6th making Daemons brokenly OP again...
- 7th's Psychic phase + Malefic making Daemons the outright most OP thing in GW history...

Daemon, Necron & Eldar are apparently bad words to say in 40k when asking for a game.

sturguard wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

sturguard wrote:

People expected Eldar to get toned down. Why? Look at the Necrons book, the took out MSS on lords, the dlord joining wraiths and bumped the price up on fliers, everything else got better or stayed the same. Why would folks think after the last Cron book this would happen to eldar? GW is releasing 1 model type for this codex, new bikes, they want them to sell.

Because since Necrons, there have been 3 more books(Harlequin, Skitarii, and Khorne Daemonkin) which have all been fairly balanced?

The Skitarii look awful nasty, I dont think they are toned down. Harlequins and Daemonkin are unique releases, they are an army yes, but not a typical full codex. Most people are not going to take a full army of Harlequins, most will take a single formation.

Skitarii CAN be nasty, but overall they're a fairly balanced book.

sturguard wrote:
Now lets say we give each of those 6 bikes scatter lasers. The unit does 24 str 6 ap - shots. But the unit costs 200 pts. 24 shots hit 16 times, wounds 14 times, kills 4-5 marines. For 200 pts you could take 10 warp spiders, they have 3+ armor, shoot 20 str 6 ap 5 plus the bladestorm ap 2 wounding hits, can deep strike, can teleport and have ldr 9 as opposed to 8 and their footprint is MUCH smaller than 6 bikes. Personally am I going to trust 200 pts to ldr 8? No way. Would I make a unit of 10 with 10 scatter lasers? No, the footprint would be huge and vulnerable to blasts, they can't fight their way out of close combat (which it is easy to get them into with how big the unit would be) and I would have to justify putting a farseer in the unit just to give it ldr 10 and now it has gotten to be a 500 pt unit. You wont see any units this big. Warwalkers have 6 scatter lasers for around 210 pts which is only 10 pts more than the bikes, they dont have ldr issues to worry about, they can outflank or scout and they have a 5+ invul. Do you see warwalkers in all the net lists now- no, but if the bikes are that good why wouldnt war walkers be that good?

Warp Spiders can't jink. Warp Spiders aren't obsec. Warpspiders are shorter range. Also, 200 points gets you 7 Jetbikes with Scatter which is 28 S6 AP6 Shots.

Also, you can't take 40-60 Warp Spiders.

DCannon4Life wrote:
How has it been confirmed that the sword will swing at initiative 1?

I don't think it has. The closest info we have is a battle example in the WD where the Knight swings after the Init 9 Thirster but before the Init 1 Thirster.

Eldar can be balanced too, take a bunch of guardians, rangers, scorpions, falcons etc. Its all what you want to do. You can play ugly with Skitarii as well.

Are people mad because you can play Eldar ugly with several different builds and other codexes only have 1-2 builds to play ugly, because playing against the Daemon Flying Circus, or Cron Decurion or Flyrant spam isnt fun to play against either.

sturguard wrote:
Eldar can be balanced too, take a bunch of guardians, rangers, scorpions, falcons etc. Its all what you want to do. You can play ugly with Skitarii as well.

Are people mad because you can play Eldar ugly with several different builds and other codexes only have 1-2 builds to play ugly, because playing against the Daemon Flying Circus, or Cron Decurion or Flyrant spam isnt fun to play against either.

People are "mad" because there is now effectively an entire formation where the basic troops(Wraithguard) can have Strength D weaponry.

 pretre wrote:

sturguard wrote:
Now lets say we give each of those 6 bikes scatter lasers. The unit does 24 str 6 ap - shots. But the unit costs 200 pts. 24 shots hit 16 times, wounds 14 times, kills 4-5 marines. For 200 pts you could take 10 warp spiders, they have 3+ armor, shoot 20 str 6 ap 5 plus the bladestorm ap 2 wounding hits, can deep strike, can teleport and have ldr 9 as opposed to 8 and their footprint is MUCH smaller than 6 bikes. Personally am I going to trust 200 pts to ldr 8? No way. Would I make a unit of 10 with 10 scatter lasers? No, the footprint would be huge and vulnerable to blasts, they can't fight their way out of close combat (which it is easy to get them into with how big the unit would be) and I would have to justify putting a farseer in the unit just to give it ldr 10 and now it has gotten to be a 500 pt unit. You wont see any units this big. Warwalkers have 6 scatter lasers for around 210 pts which is only 10 pts more than the bikes, they dont have ldr issues to worry about, they can outflank or scout and they have a 5+ invul. Do you see warwalkers in all the net lists now- no, but if the bikes are that good why wouldnt war walkers be that good?

Warp Spiders can't jink. Warp Spiders aren't obsec. Warpspiders are shorter range. Also, 200 points gets you 7 Jetbikes with Scatter which is 28 S6 AP6 Shots.

Also, you can't take 40-60 Warp Spiders.

You can take 30 Warp Spiders. And warp spiders have a smaller footprint, and warp spiders can hide in terrain easier so they aren't shot, and they can deep strike. I dont think anyone confirmed the Scatter Laser option for jetbikes is 10 pts. I think it will be 15 pts which would make a bike 32 pts. 7x32 is 224, so you just get 6 for 200 pts. Now I could be wrong and they are just a 10 pt upgrade, but I would be surprised.

How many people are going to have 60 jetbikes? What are they $40 or so for 3 models? Hey, if someone wants to pay around $800 for 60 jetbikes, I'll at least play them once. Ill take one land raider and win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

sturguard wrote:
Eldar can be balanced too, take a bunch of guardians, rangers, scorpions, falcons etc. Its all what you want to do. You can play ugly with Skitarii as well.

Are people mad because you can play Eldar ugly with several different builds and other codexes only have 1-2 builds to play ugly, because playing against the Daemon Flying Circus, or Cron Decurion or Flyrant spam isnt fun to play against either.

People are "mad" because there is now effectively an entire formation where the basic troops(Wraithguard) can have Strength D weaponry.

Most things in the game have 1 wound. Wraithguard pretty much killed everything they touched without being D. Honestly if wraithguard go up in points with D weapons, I would much rather them be exactly the way they were without D. The only difference the D makes is against multi wound models, which there arent many of and against heavy armor.

Wraithguard have range issues, always have, don't let them get close and you are fine. If they do, essentially you have the same issue you did in 6th, their d scythe will erase the unit they hit. The wraithcannon variant, well most people take units of 5 in a waveserpent. So in most situations, they did enough damage to kill a MC, now they will overkill a MC. Also how many 6's do you roll on avg with 3 wounding rolls? Given wraithguard are slow, how many times a game do they fire with a 12 inch gun. Maybe twice?

How many Hemlock fighters did you see in 6th? I didnt see one on a table, maybe they needed D to make them viable because their current rules/weapons werent enough to get players to take them.


Again, I am not saying getting D weapons wont be good in certain situations but you assume there is no cost to this upgrade.

10 point cost confirmed. There is plenty of points left after grabbing 140+ Str 6 shots from your jetbikes for a plethora of D weaponry to make a mockery of armor.

sturguard... dude, just... stop. You're white-knighting the unwhite-knightable. It's embarassing.

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
sturguard... dude, just... stop. You're white-knighting the unwhite-knightable. It's embarassing.

This.

Also I fail to see how a Land Raider would win. Objective secured so no contesting and there are still points to spare for D-weapns to blow it up.

I'm not white knighting anything. There is no balance in 40k, none, especially now with allies and formations. You guys are essentially arguing what is the worst of the worst and it really doesn't make sense. Not only that but you are doing it without seeing the full copy of the codex. Some/most of us (or at least I do) want 40k to be balanced, I have been waiting for that for the last 25 years, but at some point you just accept what 40k is and what it isn't. Eldar, Necrons, Tau, Flyrants, armies of Knights, they aren't balanced. You can say my actions are embarrassing... okay, I could tell you to suck it up and stop whining- it is just a game and an imbalanced one at that.

Did the Eldar finaly sit down and compare notes about how they once conquered the stars?

Seer 1: I recall, we had lots lots of scatterlaser, surely there must have been full jetbike squads of scatterlasers!

Seer 2: Aye, and didnt them wraithknights have destroyer weapons? Im sure most of the wraits ran around with those destroyer schytes and whatnot. Not like these days.

Seer 3: By khaine, I think youre on to something!

khaine (to him self): Bha, is that supposed to be an avatar of me? its fething puny!

sturguard wrote:
You can take 30 Warp Spiders. And warp spiders have a smaller footprint, and warp spiders can hide in terrain easier so they aren't shot, and they can deep strike. I dont think anyone confirmed the Scatter Laser option for jetbikes is 10 pts. I think it will be 15 pts which would make a bike 32 pts. 7x32 is 224, so you just get 6 for 200 pts. Now I could be wrong and they are just a 10 pt upgrade, but I would be surprised.

How many people are going to have 60 jetbikes? What are they $40 or so for 3 models? Hey, if someone wants to pay around $800 for 60 jetbikes, I'll at least play them once. Ill take one land raider and win.

27 ppm for Jetbikes with Scatter. And there are plenty of people with Saim Hain armies already. Also, with a farseer with Misfortune and guide, one unit of jetbikes kills a land raider on average. And that ignores the other 700-800 points of the army.

Most things in the game have 1 wound. Wraithguard pretty much killed everything they touched without being D. Honestly if wraithguard go up in points with D weapons, I would much rather them be exactly the way they were without D. The only difference the D makes is against multi wound models, which there arent many of and against heavy armor.

Wraithguard didn't ignore invul and cover before. They didn't one hit most vehicles.

sturguard wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

sturguard wrote:
Eldar can be balanced too, take a bunch of guardians, rangers, scorpions, falcons etc. Its all what you want to do. You can play ugly with Skitarii as well.

Are people mad because you can play Eldar ugly with several different builds and other codexes only have 1-2 builds to play ugly, because playing against the Daemon Flying Circus, or Cron Decurion or Flyrant spam isnt fun to play against either.

People are "mad" because there is now effectively an entire formation where the basic troops(Wraithguard) can have Strength D weaponry.

Most things in the game have 1 wound. Wraithguard pretty much killed everything they touched without being D. Honestly if wraithguard go up in points with D weapons, I would much rather them be exactly the way they were without D. The only difference the D makes is against multi wound models, which there arent many of and against heavy armor.

Wraithguard have range issues, always have, don't let them get close and you are fine. If they do, essentially you have the same issue you did in 6th, their d scythe will erase the unit they hit. The wraithcannon variant, well most people take units of 5 in a waveserpent. So in most situations, they did enough damage to kill a MC, now they will overkill a MC. Also how many 6's do you roll on avg with 3 wounding rolls? Given wraithguard are slow, how many times a game do they fire with a 12 inch gun. Maybe twice?
How many Hemlock fighters did you see in 6th? I didnt see one on a table, maybe they needed D to make them viable because their current rules/weapons werent enough to get players to take them.

Again, I am not saying getting D weapons wont be good in certain situations but you assume there is no cost to this upgrade.

So. Do you really not see any issues with the potential amount of Strength D being thrown around by Eldar?

When your BASIC option for a Wraithguard unit can throw around small S: D templates, you want to say that there is somehow a "cost" to that upgrade?

Too bad I wont be getting Eldar, I have necrons and I want my next army too be Astra miitarum

We shouldn't get too crazy about Wraithguard getting Destroyer weapons just yet. It's quite possible that it's a lesser version of the rule. White Dwarf's little bit of text isn't really proof.
They always talk up all of their units to make them sound appealing. How many people will have rushed out/gone online to buy boxes of Wraithguard based on that assumption already?

By all means go into an all out nerd rage if its in the codex.

Just hold on to your hat (apologist). I wouldn't eat it quite yet.

sturguard wrote:
I'm not white knighting anything. There is no balance in 40k, none, especially now with allies and formations. You guys are essentially arguing what is the worst of the worst and it really doesn't make sense. Not only that but you are doing it without seeing the full copy of the codex. Some/most of us (or at least I do) want 40k to be balanced, I have been waiting for that for the last 25 years, but at some point you just accept what 40k is and what it isn't. Eldar, Necrons, Tau, Flyrants, armies of Knights, they aren't balanced. You can say my actions are embarrassing... okay, I could tell you to suck it up and stop whining- it is just a game and an imbalanced one at that.

There's unbalanced: i.e. this army is better than this other army but good play and certain builds can win the day. (i.e. Adamantine Lance, Wave Serpent Spam, Flyrants)
There's what we've seen of Eldar: i.e. No army is better than this army (i.e. Single CAD - 40 Jetbikes, 1-2 Jetseers, Wraithknight, 0-9 Vauls batteries with D weapons)

sturguard wrote:


Most things in the game have 1 wound. Wraithguard pretty much killed everything they touched without being D. Honestly if wraithguard go up in points with D weapons, I would much rather them be exactly the way they were without D. The only difference the D makes is against multi wound models, which there arent many of and against heavy armor.

Wraithguard have range issues, always have, don't let them get close and you are fine. If they do, essentially you have the same issue you did in 6th, their d scythe will erase the unit they hit. The wraithcannon variant, well most people take units of 5 in a waveserpent. So in most situations, they did enough damage to kill a MC, now they will overkill a MC. Also how many 6's do you roll on avg with 3 wounding rolls? Given wraithguard are slow, how many times a game do they fire with a 12 inch gun. Maybe twice?

How many Hemlock fighters did you see in 6th? I didnt see one on a table, maybe they needed D to make them viable because their current rules/weapons werent enough to get players to take them.


Again, I am not saying getting D weapons wont be good in certain situations but you assume there is no cost to this upgrade.

Yes, the costing of the units makes all the difference in the world. Wraithknights are great because they are 240 points. If they get D weapons, but now cost 400+ points -- to bring them to the points level of Imperial Knights, who have cc D -- that's a whole other ball of wax.

Wraithguard are great because they are killy 160 points. Bump that to 260 points, and you just have units like terminators: every loss is too costly.

The bikes with Shuriken Cannons (or scatter lasers) look pretty solid, though.

In an ideal world, Eldar units would be the best in the game **but also the most expensive**

And I'd probably do 5x6 and 1x10 Jetbikes for max Obsec.

sturguard wrote:
I'm not white knighting anything. There is no balance in 40k, none, especially now with allies and formations. You guys are essentially arguing what is the worst of the worst and it really doesn't make sense. Not only that but you are doing it without seeing the full copy of the codex. Some/most of us (or at least I do) want 40k to be balanced, I have been waiting for that for the last 25 years, but at some point you just accept what 40k is and what it isn't. Eldar, Necrons, Tau, Flyrants, armies of Knights, they aren't balanced. You can say my actions are embarrassing... okay, I could tell you to suck it up and stop whining- it is just a game and an imbalanced one at that.

Pretty sure you're on the wrong forum to make this point :p

For what it's worth I totally agree with you. 40k will always have broken combos, people are just getting even more upset this time because so many get upset about the wave serpent spam. Best thing to do is do your best to find a decent group of people who don't build WAAC lists and just get together to enjoy the game.

Looking at the list of options something struck me: I don’t see any units that have been dropped. There was some fear of the finecast only things being cut. But it looks like everyone is present and accounted for.

sturguard wrote:
I'm not white knighting anything. There is no balance in 40k, none, especially now with allies and formations. You guys are essentially arguing what is the worst of the worst and it really doesn't make sense. Not only that but you are doing it without seeing the full copy of the codex. Some/most of us (or at least I do) want 40k to be balanced, I have been waiting for that for the last 25 years, but at some point you just accept what 40k is and what it isn't. Eldar, Necrons, Tau, Flyrants, armies of Knights, they aren't balanced. You can say my actions are embarrassing... okay, I could tell you to suck it up and stop whining- it is just a game and an imbalanced one at that.

But what you've been trying to do is make us believe this crap is somehow balanced. Which is laughable.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Can You save The Galaxy?

HH game incoming!

Or Deathwatch, At this point, who can tell what the hell they're doing....

I guess all the crybabies that whined about Serpent spam are upset with the new Jetbike rules. The lesson here: Be careful what you wish for....

Nocturnus wrote:

I guess all the crybabies that whined about Serpent spam are upset with the new Jetbike rules. The lesson here: Be careful what you wish for....

Pray tell how anyone could have wished for this?

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Why not? It makes just as much sense as making Distortion weapons Destroyer.

Distortion weapons kinda do make sense as Destroyer weapons. Read the fluff... It opens a portal to the warp, almost like a mini black hole.

 Talys wrote:


Yes, the costing of the units makes all the difference in the world. Wraithknights are great because they are 240 points. If they get D weapons, but now cost 400+ points -- to bring them to the points level of Imperial Knights, who have cc D -- that's a whole other ball of wax.

You can't see the difference between an Imperial Knight--which has, as you pointed out a D strength CCW--and a Wraithknight, which is now a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature, with the ability to take twin ranged D weapons?

Or the fact that if you look, again, at the FOC I reposted you can fill up your Auxiliary slots(which you get something like 1-13 unlocked for every Guardian Battlehost you field) with lone Wraithknights OR a formation which includes a Wraithknight, 3 units of Wraithguard/Wraithblades, a Spiritseer, and a Wraithlord?

Wraithguard are great because they are killy 160 points. Bump that to 260 points, and you just have units like terminators: every loss is too costly.

The difference is that Terminators aren't in an army that can be Allied with open topped transports to start hosing templates out of them...

Deschenus Maximus wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

I guess all the crybabies that whined about Serpent spam are upset with the new Jetbike rules. The lesson here: Be careful what you wish for....

Pray tell how anyone could have wished for this?

No no, they wished for a new Eldar book where they would be nerfed. GW answered your prayers with this....

Nocturnus wrote:

I guess all the crybabies that whined about Serpent spam are upset with the new Jetbike rules. The lesson here: Be careful what you wish for....

They have that three squads of Dire Avengers still. We can have Jetbike Spam and Serpent Spam and Wraithknights all in one list.

Nocturnus wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Why not? It makes just as much sense as making Distortion weapons Destroyer.

Distortion weapons kinda do make sense as Destroyer weapons. Read the fluff... It opens a portal to the warp, almost like a mini black hole.

Yeah, and the Deathstrike Missile is an obscenely large payload yet capped at S10 AP1.

And can't be fired on turn 1.

There are a ton of weapons that are far more impressive in the lore than Distortion weapons yet they aren't D-weaponry.

Nocturnus wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Why not? It makes just as much sense as making Distortion weapons Destroyer.

Distortion weapons kinda do make sense as Destroyer weapons. Read the fluff... It opens a portal to the warp, almost like a mini black hole.

But since when did gw at all care about the fluff being represented in the game? Bolters are supposedly these mini rocket launchers that explode when they hit the target, or penetrate it. Yep s4 ap5 sounds good. Lol

Chad Warden wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Chad Warden wrote:
Well we just had Khorne Daemonkin and that changed barely anything from the equivalent units in CD and CSM, so I dont see those updated anytime soon, and if they are it would be the exact same profiles.

They completely removed demonic instability. that is huge bud.

They kept the same profiles and points costs and changed a few (very significant)special rules

The point being, if CSM are coming soon they will be exactly the same weapons, profiles and points costs as Daemonikin (so mediocre and nothing like on the power level of new Eldar).

Sadly, I agree with you. The Khorne book is cool and makes for a fun game, but in terms of competitive play, it's maybe mid tier. Maybe.

Nocturnus wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Can You save The Galaxy?

HH game incoming!

Or Deathwatch, At this point, who can tell what the hell they're doing....

I guess all the crybabies that whined about Serpent spam are upset with the new Jetbike rules. The lesson here: Be careful what you wish for....

They just wanted the Eldar players who have been beating their arses to be on the losing side for a change.

I could dig up some quotes from a few months ago, when I wrote here that the Eldar might not even be nerfed. I said that they might even get buffed. The replies I got were "Why on earth would GW buff something that's already overpowered". You guys have your answer now.

 Therion wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Can You save The Galaxy?

HH game incoming!

Or Deathwatch, At this point, who can tell what the hell they're doing....

I guess all the crybabies that whined about Serpent spam are upset with the new Jetbike rules. The lesson here: Be careful what you wish for....

They just wanted the Eldar players who have been beating their arses to be on the losing side for a change.

I could dig up some quotes from a few months ago, when I wrote here that the Eldar might not even be nerfed. I said that they might even get buffed. The replies I got were "Why on earth would GW buff something that's already overpowered". You guys have your answer now.

LOL I was saying the same thing to some local players at a tournament a few weeks ago.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Why not? It makes just as much sense as making Distortion weapons Destroyer.

Distortion weapons kinda do make sense as Destroyer weapons. Read the fluff... It opens a portal to the warp, almost like a mini black hole.

Yeah, and the Deathstrike Missile is an obscenely large payload yet capped at S10 AP1.

And can't be fired on turn 1.

I am not arguing that. I guess they figure they will sell players one Deathstrike kit vs many Wraithguard/Knight kits.

 pretre wrote:
And I'd probably do 5x6 and 1x10 Jetbikes for max Obsec.

Not sure how viable it would be for tournament:

2 Farseer on Jetbikes with singing spears
32 jetbikes with either weapon arranged in whatever squads you'd like (squad size 10 7 5 5 5)
3 wraithknights (standard)

leaves 26 points for a relic

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

 pretre wrote:
And I'd probably do 5x6 and 1x10 Jetbikes for max Obsec.

Not sure how viable it would be for tournament:

2 Farseer on Jetbikes with singing spears
32 jetbikes with either weapon arranged in whatever squads you'd like (squad size 10 7 5 5 5)
3 wraithknights (standard)

leaves 26 points for a relic

Wraithknights are almost certainly LOW.

At current prices, I came up with this:

40 Jetbikes is 1080
7 Vauls with D is 385
WraithKnight is 240
Jetseer is 115
1820.

8 long range Ds and 160 S6 AP6 with 6 Ob Sec units and some psychic. How are you living past turn 2?

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

 pretre wrote:
And I'd probably do 5x6 and 1x10 Jetbikes for max Obsec.

Not sure how viable it would be for tournament:

2 Farseer on Jetbikes with singing spears
32 jetbikes with either weapon arranged in whatever squads you'd like (squad size 10 7 5 5 5)
3 wraithknights (standard)

leaves 26 points for a relic

Would probably do 6x5 Jetbikes and 2 Wraithknights, they surely must go up in cost. Farseers mandatory because Daemons just can't have a 2++ re-rollable, which is probably one of the best counters to mass S6 AND D weapons.

If there is any sense left in GW the Knight must cost more with the D/Gargantuan buffs.

 pretre wrote:
Also, you can't take 40-60 Warp Spiders.

You can take up to 360 in a single Craftworld Warhost detachment by taking 12 Aspect Host formations, actually.

I have serious doubts that if the Wraithknight becomes LoW GMC, he'll remain at 240. Dunno what they'll put him at, but that seems a bit cheap for something like that.

 Redemption wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Also, you can't take 40-60 Warp Spiders.

You can take up to 360 in a single Craftworld Warhost detachment by taking 12 Aspect Host formations, actually.

True. Although why you would when you can get Bikes instead...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:
I have serious doubts that if the Wraithknight becomes LoW GMC, he'll remain at 240. Dunno what they'll put him at, but that seems a bit cheap for something like that.

Agreed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Even without the knight though, just take 40 jetbikes, a seer and as many Vaul's Batteries as you can fit.

You win.

Nocturnus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Why not? It makes just as much sense as making Distortion weapons Destroyer.

Distortion weapons kinda do make sense as Destroyer weapons. Read the fluff... It opens a portal to the warp, almost like a mini black hole.

Yeah, and the Deathstrike Missile is an obscenely large payload yet capped at S10 AP1.

And can't be fired on turn 1.

I am not arguing that. I guess they figure they will sell players one Deathstrike kit vs many Wraithguard/Knight kits.

Prior to this new Codex, you could take the same number of Deathstrikes as Wraithknights.

Both were Heavy Support, and one choice per slot, meaning that a CAD could take 3.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

 pretre wrote:
And I'd probably do 5x6 and 1x10 Jetbikes for max Obsec.

Not sure how viable it would be for tournament:

2 Farseer on Jetbikes with singing spears
32 jetbikes with either weapon arranged in whatever squads you'd like (squad size 10 7 5 5 5)
3 wraithknights (standard)

leaves 26 points for a relic

Would probably do 6x5 Jetbikes and 2 Wraithknights, they surely must go up in cost. Farseers mandatory because Daemons just can't have a 2++ re-rollable, which is probably one of the best counters to mass S6 AND D weapons.

just spit ballin' at the current costs your almost certian to see a similar list to either of ours and PRETRE's at a major tourney... 10 jetbikes 40 shots 36" range!!!!

In all honesty, I would be surprised if Jetbike spam will be in any of the top lists. I don't see that happening regardless of what people are saying here.

(1) Jetbikes have a very large footprint, (2) they are relatively unwieldy, (3) large units are hard to hide which means they can and will be taking return fire, and (4) jetbikes are especially vulnerable to combat. In short, Jetbikes are not that hard to take out and lacking the survivability of the serpent ensures this and balances it out. I know, I've been playing off and on with a Saim-Hann style list:
http://yriel.blogspot.com/2011/03/sprue-posse-mini-gt-battle-reports-part.html.

To be honest, Guardian Jetbikes/Wind Riders were always rather lack-luster in any capacity other than objective grabbing but were still fun to play. Now, at least they offer some offensive punch.

Likewise, Wraithguard need proper maneuvering to get into position to do damage and once locked down in combat, absent anything with hit and run (like Baharoth), are as good as useless for the rest of the game. D-Scythes are the only thing I really think are ridiculous if they become D weapons. Web Way portals are good too but those can be mitigated by proper positioning and use of "bubble wrap".

Overall, we have to wait and see how everything plays out with the dex and I personally hope distort =/= destroyer as it would make my 60 Wraithguard sad regarding ITC events (though I guess I can always take Wraithblades as they have served me well).

Anyway, I find all this doom and gloom and "eldar are OP" complaining amusing but also sad. Just because Eldar have strong options does not mean everyone will be taking them or has to take them. Don't want to play against Eldar because Eldar? Get over it... If someone wants to field something like I did here, http://yriel.blogspot.com/2011/06/this-one-is-for-you-charlie-altioc.html one should hardly find cause to complain... Now yes, there will be players that field nothing but X where X is the perceived super unit but that is generally pretty rare unless you go to any really big tournaments.

Don't get me wrong, I can also get frustrated playing against beefy Tau/Centurion spam armies and even Serpent spam but if my army is built properly, those things are not that bad-just play to the mission. All in all, I think the most fun will be had between people taking balanced lists-I personally don't see myself taking 6-9 man jetbike units with all heavy weapons anytime soon.

Yeah, unless Vauls get a SERIOUS points increase, they are going to be the hotness too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mortetvie wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I can also get frustrated playing against beefy Tau/Centurion spam armies and even Serpent spam but if my army is built properly, those things are not that bad-just play to the mission. All in all, I think the most fun will be had between people taking balanced lists-I personally don't see myself taking 6-9 man jetbike units with all heavy weapons anytime soon.

You can't play to the mission if you're dead.

Maybe I'm a little less optimistic, but if people can take 40 SL Bikes, they will.

I'm still hoping the codex brings sanity (who said I wasn't an optimist?).

Given the detachment description, I think the evidence available points toward the Wraith Knight being elevated to Gargantuan Creature status without the accompanying Lord of War designation. There is also, I think, evidence to support this idea in that if GW wants to sell a lot of Wraith Knights, every 'legal' list would need to have access to more than one. I already own 3 myself (TFG!), so why would I buy another if every list I write will be limited to just one?

The Imperial Knight, with its 'Super Heavy But Not Lord of War' designation set the precedent for this.

Yah pretre everyone was getting so worked up over the bikes and wraithguard/Knight. Meanwhile I was thinking about my 9 vaul batteries that I've been waiting to do something beside shadow weavers with. On the whole this whole process has taken the typical path. Everyone freaks out over one thing and misses something else that is going to be insane, or not. I'll wait till we see what happens when the codex comes out to make my decision.

 pretre wrote:
Yeah, unless Vauls get a SERIOUS points increase, they are going to be the hotness too.

Not sure thier range will make them viable to spam

 mortetvie wrote:
In all honesty, I would be surprised if Jetbike spam will be in any of the top lists. I don't see that happening regardless of what people are saying here.

(1) Jetbikes have a very large footprint, (2) they are relatively unwieldy, (3) large units are hard to hide which means they can and will be taking return fire, and (4) jetbikes are especially vulnerable to combat. In short, Jetbikes are not that hard to take out and lacking the survivability of the serpent ensures this and balances it out. I know, I've been playing off and on with a Saim-Hann style list:
http://yriel.blogspot.com/2011/03/sprue-posse-mini-gt-battle-reports-part.html.

To be honest, Guardian Jetbikes/Wind Riders were always rather lack-luster in any capacity other than objective grabbing but were still fun to play. Now, at least they offer some offensive punch.

Likewise, Wraithguard need proper maneuvering to get into position to do damage and once locked down in combat, absent anything with hit and run (like Baharoth), are as good as useless for the rest of the game. D-Scythes are the only thing I really think are ridiculous if they become D weapons. Web Way portals are good too but those can be mitigated by proper positioning and use of "bubble wrap".

Overall, we have to wait and see how everything plays out with the dex and I personally hope distort =/= destroyer as it would make my 60 Wraithguard sad regarding ITC events (though I guess I can always take Wraithblades as they have served me well).

Anyway, I find all this doom and gloom and "eldar are OP" complaining amusing but also sad. Just because Eldar have strong options does not mean everyone will be taking them or has to take them. Don't want to play against Eldar because Eldar? Get over it... If someone wants to field something like I did here, http://yriel.blogspot.com/2011/06/this-one-is-for-you-charlie-altioc.html one should hardly find cause to complain... Now yes, there will be players that field nothing but X where X is the perceived super unit but that is generally pretty rare unless you go to any really big tournaments.

Don't get me wrong, I can also get frustrated playing against beefy Tau/Centurion spam armies and even Serpent spam but if my army is built properly, those things are not that bad-just play to the mission. All in all, I think the most fun will be had between people taking balanced lists-I personally don't see myself taking 6-9 man jetbike units with all heavy weapons anytime soon.

Most likely bike spam will be in as many top lists as WS spam, Imperial Knight armies, grav bike spam, etc...

Too bad Vaul's are only 24". :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Yeah, unless Vauls get a SERIOUS points increase, they are going to be the hotness too.

Not sure thier range will make them viable to spam

Makes a serious 'no-go' zone for your opponent's army.

Nocturnus wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Can You save The Galaxy?

HH game incoming!

Or Deathwatch, At this point, who can tell what the hell they're doing....

I guess all the crybabies that whined about Serpent spam are upset with the new Jetbike rules. The lesson here: Be careful what you wish for....

Unlike your mature statement about "crbabies" - or are you just another "WAAC cheesemonger who pretends to win through skill"

Who exactly (apart from people like that ) would welcome new broken units to exploit...............

So...anyone thinking that the Eldar Skimmers will get Deep Strike?

So do you think that eldar will be able to emply a normal CAD and not only the formations that we see on white dwarf?

I'm not going to get bent out of shape about the jetbikes until I have confirmed information and some context (and probably even not then). It's not like this forum hasn't jumped the gun on this stuff before.

Regarding the rules being good in order to sell jetbikes...shouldn't they have wanted to sell Maleceptors too? And don't say that it's because the other build (Toxicrenes) are world-beaters that make that kit fly off the shelves.

 mortetvie wrote:
In all honesty, I would be surprised if Jetbike spam will be in any of the top lists. I don't see that happening regardless of what people are saying here.

(1) Jetbikes have a very large footprint, (2) they are relatively unwieldy, (3) large units are hard to hide which means they can and will be taking return fire, and (4) jetbikes are especially vulnerable to combat. In short, Jetbikes are not that hard to take out and lacking the survivability of the serpent ensures this and balances it out. I know, I've been playing off and on with a Saim-Hann style list:
http://yriel.blogspot.com/2011/03/sprue-posse-mini-gt-battle-reports-part.html.

To be honest, Guardian Jetbikes/Wind Riders were always rather lack-luster in any capacity other than objective grabbing but were still fun to play. Now, at least they offer some offensive punch.

Likewise, Wraithguard need proper maneuvering to get into position to do damage and once locked down in combat, absent anything with hit and run (like Baharoth), are as good as useless for the rest of the game. D-Scythes are the only thing I really think are ridiculous if they become D weapons. Web Way portals are good too but those can be mitigated by proper positioning and use of "bubble wrap".

Overall, we have to wait and see how everything plays out with the dex and I personally hope distort =/= destroyer as it would make my 60 Wraithguard sad regarding ITC events (though I guess I can always take Wraithblades as they have served me well).

Anyway, I find all this doom and gloom and "eldar are OP" complaining amusing but also sad. Just because Eldar have strong options does not mean everyone will be taking them or has to take them. Don't want to play against Eldar because Eldar? Get over it... If someone wants to field something like I did here, http://yriel.blogspot.com/2011/06/this-one-is-for-you-charlie-altioc.html one should hardly find cause to complain... Now yes, there will be players that field nothing but X where X is the perceived super unit but that is generally pretty rare unless you go to any really big tournaments.

Don't get me wrong, I can also get frustrated playing against beefy Tau/Centurion spam armies and even Serpent spam but if my army is built properly, those things are not that bad-just play to the mission. All in all, I think the most fun will be had between people taking balanced lists-I personally don't see myself taking 6-9 man jetbike units with all heavy weapons anytime soon.

Lets hope for all our sake that you are right. It's not very reassuring when you link to battle reports from 2011 though...

 pretre wrote:
Yeah, unless Vauls get a SERIOUS points increase, they are going to be the hotness too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mortetvie wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I can also get frustrated playing against beefy Tau/Centurion spam armies and even Serpent spam but if my army is built properly, those things are not that bad-just play to the mission. All in all, I think the most fun will be had between people taking balanced lists-I personally don't see myself taking 6-9 man jetbike units with all heavy weapons anytime soon.

You can't play to the mission if you're dead.

Maybe I'm a little less optimistic, but if people can take 40 SL Bikes, they will.

I'm still hoping the codex brings sanity (who said I wasn't an optimist?).

I try to build my lists in consideration of what the strongest meta can throw at me with mission objectives in mind-this approach has served me well since 2nd Edition. Generally, this means taking some decent offense but with an emphasis on survivability which is why Wraithguard often feature in my lists (as they are tough with proper psychic support). Honestly, 9 jetbikes with Scatter Lasers might have a lot of firepower but they are still just shooting at one target at a time and are very susceptible to LD related attacks (Psychic Shriek/Telepathy powers), cover ignoring shooting and close combat. Honestly, I would not be too intimidated if I saw Jetbike spam on the other side of the table.


And @rollawaythestone, those battle reports just go to show how I did with "sub-par" lists in metas that had other particularly rough armies out there such as Venom Spam, Space Wolf Missile launcher spam, IG Manticore spam and so on. I also linked those reports to illustrate that I've been playing Eldar of all colors for a while (while still doing well in competitive settings) and have enough experience under my belt to hold off on the "Eldar are OP OH NOES!" mentality unlike some other people in this thread. Heck, I made it to 3rd place in BAO using Wraithblades =/. Do Eldar, and many other armies have very strong options? Yes, of course, but that does not mean that it is the end of the 40k world as we know it and player skill in terms of list design and game play is still the biggest determining factor as far as who will win a game.

If "OP" Eldar armies are getting you down, try to figure out how to beat them (just as you would trying to figure out how to beat a boss in any video game). If playing against such armies is not your thing, then competitive play is probably not for you and you should stick to playing with friends and people who will take lists that are more your taste.

 gorgon wrote:
I'm not going to get bent out of shape about the jetbikes until I have confirmed information and some context (and probably even not then). It's not like this forum hasn't jumped the gun on this stuff before.

Well, to be fair, it is confirmed by WD.

We're just hoping WD is wrong and the codex is different.

 Capamaru wrote:
So do you think that eldar will be able to emply a normal CAD and not only the formations that we see on white dwarf?

Unless they get rid of all their HQs they will be able to take a normal CAD

I have a genuine question here: When did DakkaDakka do a Chicken Little and cry about the sky falling when the Codex in question wasnt as bad? This idea comes up at almost every release that is shaping up to be overpowered.

 gorgon wrote:
I'm not going to get bent out of shape about the jetbikes until I have confirmed information and some context (and probably even not then). It's not like this forum hasn't jumped the gun on this stuff before.

Regarding the rules being good in order to sell jetbikes...shouldn't they have wanted to sell Maleceptors too? And don't say that it's because the other build (Toxicrenes) are world-beaters that make that kit fly off the shelves.

GW employees would sell the Toxicrene as I6 2+ to wound but any savvy Nid player knows that the Dimachaeron is just better in all departments. For starters, hitting things on threes.
Don't even joke about the Maleceptor to me, an employee tried to sell me it as a character killer. Cool so WC3, roll to hit, Ld 10 most likely, D3 wounds...yeah Biovores can do that cheaper and from further away.

Enough talk. More pictures!

 Capamaru wrote:
So do you think that eldar will be able to emply a normal CAD and not only the formations that we see on white dwarf?

I think its just like the necrons decurion detachment, I also believe every army will have an army creation table like this in the future.

All these little groups you see in the white dwarf are just formations in the codex Eldar: Craftworlds. You can take them using certain requirements (1 guardian host + 1 of the other ones probably) and get a certain bonus, or use them as stand-alone formations. You can still take a regular Combined Arms Detachment, and even add a few of the listed formations to it.

Not 100% sure about it ofcourse, but this is how it was with the crons, and this looks like its exactly the same deal.

That Farseer is gorgeous. .

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I have a genuine question here: When did DakkaDakka do a Chicken Little and cry about the sky falling when the Codex in question wasnt as bad? This idea comes up at almost every release that is shaping up to be overpowered.

Oh it happens all the time. This one might be legit though. The big previous ones were Wraiths and Summoning. The first wasn't as good as these are and the second lacked significant information and experience.

It's hard to argue that the jetbikes as presented in WD aren't absurdly powerful and versatile for their cost. Unless the entire rest of the codex has absurd price rises, extremely restrictive special rules or some sort of other gotcha, or the Jetbike WD entry is just flat out wrong, things are going to be bad.

 Nevelon wrote:
Looking at the list of options something struck me: I don’t see any units that have been dropped. There was some fear of the finecast only things being cut. But it looks like everyone is present and accounted for.

Which was always a stupid rumour.

They didn't drop Flesh Hounds from Khorne, nor Flayed Ones from Necrons, etc..

They "dropped" Finecast in the sense that they seemingly aren't making new units or even characters in Finecast, but existing units/characters will arguably stick around till updated (with the odd Vect-shaped exception, which hardly constitutes a rule).

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Capamaru wrote:
So do you think that eldar will be able to emply a normal CAD and not only the formations that we see on white dwarf?

I think its just like the necrons decurion detachment, I also believe every army will have an army creation table like this in the future.

All these little groups you see in the white dwarf are just formations in the codex Eldar: Craftworlds. You can take them using certain requirements (1 guardian host + 1 of the other ones probably) and get a certain bonus, or use them as stand-alone formations. You can still take a regular Combined Arms Detachment, and even add a few of the listed formations to it.

Not 100% sure about it ofcourse, but this is how it was with the crons, and this looks like its exactly the same deal.

So this means that if they follow the necron theme you will have to take 1 guardian host in order to be able to access the rest of the goodies. So the standard 1 hq - 2 troops and then 4 troops 3 elite -3 heavy support - 3 fast attack will not be an option anymore?

Sadly underwhelmed by the bikes.............ah well

 Capamaru wrote:
So this means that if they follow the necron theme you will have to take 1 guardian host in order to be able to access the rest of the goodies. So the standard 1 hq - 2 troops and then 4 troops 3 elite -3 heavy support - 3 fast attack will not be an option anymore?

Decurion is optional. You can still do CAD.

You will still be able to take the standard combined arms detachment if you wish. In order to take the Eldar Warhost, however, you have to follow their special list-building format.

 pretre wrote:
Too bad Vaul's are only 24". :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Yeah, unless Vauls get a SERIOUS points increase, they are going to be the hotness too.

Not sure thier range will make them viable to spam

Makes a serious 'no-go' zone for your opponent's army.

Unless it 3-4 Flyrants....can't shoot those

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I have a genuine question here: When did DakkaDakka do a Chicken Little and cry about the sky falling when the Codex in question wasnt as bad? This idea comes up at almost every release that is shaping up to be overpowered.

This isn't chicken littling. I get that Dakka goes overboard from time to time, but the JBs are a legit concern. They are a troop choice, with the durability of a SM, the mobility of ...well...EJB, and now 36" shooting that can Assault move even further away. SL spam has alwasy been then name of the game for Eldar (except briefly in 3rd when it was SC spam), and it's now gotten easier to do. SL hit the sweet spot of being both high Strength and having a very high rate of fire. If you were designing a weapon you would want to spam, you'd be hard pressed to do a better job than SLs. And now you have a troop choice in which litterally every model can take one, and at a ludicrously low cost. Only willful ignorance can deny the game breaking effect this will have.

On WKs: I'm going to operate on the assumption they saw a pretty hefty price increase. If not, between them and bikes GW may have terminally broken the fun button on 40k. WK/Bike spam wouldn't be fun for nobody.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I'm not going to get bent out of shape about the jetbikes until I have confirmed information and some context (and probably even not then). It's not like this forum hasn't jumped the gun on this stuff before.

Regarding the rules being good in order to sell jetbikes...shouldn't they have wanted to sell Maleceptors too? And don't say that it's because the other build (Toxicrenes) are world-beaters that make that kit fly off the shelves.

GW employees would sell the Toxicrene as I6 2+ to wound but any savvy Nid player knows that the Dimachaeron is just better in all departments. For starters, hitting things on threes.
Don't even joke about the Maleceptor to me, an employee tried to sell me it as a character killer. Cool so WC3, roll to hit, Ld 10 most likely, D3 wounds...yeah Biovores can do that cheaper and from further away.

Yeah and when I worked at Best Buy I would have to tell people it was a good idea to get a Best Buy credit card, and that they needed to spend another $100 to clean all the pre-installed junk off of their new computer. That's how retail works, GW are FAAAARRRRRR from the worst offenders.

 mortetvie wrote:
(1) Jetbikes have a very large footprint,

Their footprint will be significantly smaller if you use the bases they are supplied with instead of the large skimmer bases in that batrep you linked to.

 pretre wrote:

 Capamaru wrote:
So this means that if they follow the necron theme you will have to take 1 guardian host in order to be able to access the rest of the goodies. So the standard 1 hq - 2 troops and then 4 troops 3 elite -3 heavy support - 3 fast attack will not be an option anymore?

Decurion is optional. You can still do CAD.

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

Unless it 3-4 Flyrants....can't shoot those

Yeah, but even snap firing, the jetbikes are going to put the hurt on the tyrants.

160 Shots. 160/6 Hit. 160/12 Wound. 13 Wounds before saves. Obviously not every unit will be able to target the same tyrant. edit; Actually, that's what? 3-4 wounds. That's not bad for the flyrant. Get FNP and we're good to go.

Flyrants will probably be one of the best matchups against them.

 Capamaru wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Capamaru wrote:
So this means that if they follow the necron theme you will have to take 1 guardian host in order to be able to access the rest of the goodies. So the standard 1 hq - 2 troops and then 4 troops 3 elite -3 heavy support - 3 fast attack will not be an option anymore?

Decurion is optional. You can still do CAD.

Someone needs to photoshop Woody into some Space Marine armor and give Buzz a Farseer's helmet.

 pretre wrote:

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

Unless it 3-4 Flyrants....can't shoot those

Yeah, but even snap firing, the jetbikes are going to put the hurt on the tyrants.

160 Shots. 160/6 Hit. 160/12 Wound. 10 Wounds before saves. Obviously not every unit will be able to target the same tyrant. The tyrants are going to hurt them back, but I think that's a losers game for the tyrant.

Although Flyrants will probably be one of the best matchups against them.

I'm hoping s local guy uses 3 on a regular basis 4 at major events. I'd like to punch them for awhile. just one 10 man jetbike squad with scatter lasers will be impressive when guided

 pretre wrote:

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

Unless it 3-4 Flyrants....can't shoot those

Yeah, but even snap firing, the jetbikes are going to put the hurt on the tyrants.

160 Shots. 160/6 Hit. 160/12 Wound. 13 Wounds before saves. Obviously not every unit will be able to target the same tyrant. edit; Actually, that's what? 3-4 wounds. That's not bad for the flyrant. Get FNP and we're good to go.

Flyrants will probably be one of the best matchups against them.

You're forgetting Farseers on bikes twin-linking all those shots too. 160 shots/6= 26.7 +22.2 => 48.9~50 hits. 25 wounds, 8.3 wounds. Still plenty to kill a flyrant a turn through FNP.


Alternately.......just spread your bikes across the board and don't give them anywhere to land. That's easy enough to do as well.

 pretre wrote:

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

Unless it 3-4 Flyrants....can't shoot those

Yeah, but even snap firing, the jetbikes are going to put the hurt on the tyrants.

160 Shots. 160/6 Hit. 160/12 Wound. 13 Wounds before saves. Obviously not every unit will be able to target the same tyrant. edit; Actually, that's what? 3-4 wounds. That's not bad for the flyrant. Get FNP and we're good to go.

Flyrants will probably be one of the best matchups against them.

It's actually 4.125 wounds so that's one dead flyrant if rolling for armour save.

But when you say that, 1080 pts worth shooting into the same model that is 240 pts, then it could be efficient. Especially if you can rock a 2+ cover and believe me you can.

Umm...play Mealstom....
And uh...stop playing against WAAC players.
Oh, Learn to play, bro.
Just buy cheese for your army.
Also, Forge the Narrative!

Did I get them all?
40k is only playable with close groups of like-minded friends. Outside of that I don't see why anyone would play it.

(Edit) To clarify, this new Eldar "dex" or whatever it is, sounds horribly broken and so obviously broken that it wouldn't be enjoyable for me to play as or against. By the looks of it, many agree with that.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Can You save The Galaxy?

HH game incoming!

Or Deathwatch, At this point, who can tell what the hell they're doing....

I guess all the crybabies that whined about Serpent spam are upset with the new Jetbike rules. The lesson here: Be careful what you wish for....

Unlike your mature statement about "crbabies" - or are you just another "WAAC cheesemonger who pretends to win through skill"

Who exactly (apart from people like that ) would welcome new broken units to exploit...............

LOL. I am not sure how you figure that I am a WAAC player from my comment. I guess it's too much to hope for comprehension rather than just reading. The point (because you clearly missed it) was that sometimes it's about the lesser of two evils. Serpent spam was a pain in the ass. But it could be countered. With this new Scatrider ( love that phrase) build and distort weapons becoming D weapons, Serpent Spam doesn't seem so bad.

Wasn't there another thread made specifically to complain about the new Eldar release? Maybe take most of this "discussion" there?