Ok I could see a Str D hit on a 6 to hit, that would work fine. I'm kind of thinking this won't happen just on how the side bar is written, but who knows. Honestly this would work pretty well so let's hope it's something like this......I would feel too dirty playing my Eldar otherwise
Well the thing is, all D-weapons that weren't a template weapon were all S10 anyway, so the rule would fit rather well. Everything that carries it would be a bit more expensive, obviously, and the "only on a hit roll of 6" wouldn't be game breaking, considering the cost and short range of the weapons (on the wraithguard, anyway). And, if it stays the same on the Wraithknight, then it doesn't have true strength D, but only on a 6. Though, if it is strength D on the Wraithknight, even then it's not that bad, considering his price. And he's Gargantuan, so it fits.
Well just remembered: that side bar mentions D-Cannons as one of the things that are now Str D, since they are blast weapons this kind of invalidates this theory
Ok I could see a Str D hit on a 6 to hit, that would work fine. I'm kind of thinking this won't happen just on how the side bar is written, but who knows. Honestly this would work pretty well so let's hope it's something like this......I would feel too dirty playing my Eldar otherwise
Well the thing is, all D-weapons that weren't a template weapon were all S10 anyway, so the rule would fit rather well. Everything that carries it would be a bit more expensive, obviously, and the "only on a hit roll of 6" wouldn't be game breaking, considering the cost and short range of the weapons (on the wraithguard, anyway). And, if it stays the same on the Wraithknight, then it doesn't have true strength D, but only on a 6. Though, if it is strength D on the Wraithknight, even then it's not that bad, considering his price. And he's Gargantuan, so it fits.
Well just remembered: that side bar mentions D-Cannons as one of the things that are now Str D, since they are blast weapons this kind of invalidates this theory
Ok I could see a Str D hit on a 6 to hit, that would work fine. I'm kind of thinking this won't happen just on how the side bar is written, but who knows. Honestly this would work pretty well so let's hope it's something like this......I would feel too dirty playing my Eldar otherwise
Well the thing is, all D-weapons that weren't a template weapon were all S10 anyway, so the rule would fit rather well. Everything that carries it would be a bit more expensive, obviously, and the "only on a hit roll of 6" wouldn't be game breaking, considering the cost and short range of the weapons (on the wraithguard, anyway). And, if it stays the same on the Wraithknight, then it doesn't have true strength D, but only on a 6. Though, if it is strength D on the Wraithknight, even then it's not that bad, considering his price. And he's Gargantuan, so it fits.
Well just remembered: that side bar mentions D-Cannons as one of the things that are now Str D, since they are blast weapons this kind of invalidates this theory
Well then there's no hope for anybody.
Yes, give in to the despair...let it consume you! :p
Ok I could see a Str D hit on a 6 to hit, that would work fine. I'm kind of thinking this won't happen just on how the side bar is written, but who knows. Honestly this would work pretty well so let's hope it's something like this......I would feel too dirty playing my Eldar otherwise
Well the thing is, all D-weapons that weren't a template weapon were all S10 anyway, so the rule would fit rather well. Everything that carries it would be a bit more expensive, obviously, and the "only on a hit roll of 6" wouldn't be game breaking, considering the cost and short range of the weapons (on the wraithguard, anyway). And, if it stays the same on the Wraithknight, then it doesn't have true strength D, but only on a 6. Though, if it is strength D on the Wraithknight, even then it's not that bad, considering his price. And he's Gargantuan, so it fits.
Well just remembered: that side bar mentions D-Cannons as one of the things that are now Str D, since they are blast weapons this kind of invalidates this theory
Well then there's no hope for anybody.
Yes, give in to the despair...let it consume you! :p
could be on a 6 to hit or a direct hit for blast weapons
Reason for my post was in response to MWHistorian talking about how the new Eldar dex is an example of the decline of 40k, which I agree with. Almost not worth responding to but I don't play PC games because I like the human interaction - it's an excuse to meet my mates. Sitting around in my own filth playing WoW just doesn't appeal anymore.
Plus, one of the best things about Infinity for me is that it is incredibly easy to own different factions due to the low model count and therefore low price for each army. I'm actually thinking of getting an army of each of the different factions as I'm finding it really hard to settle on one due to the excellent background and models. I've got three already after adding a few bits to OI and buying a Haqqislam starter plus some models I liked the look of. I've only just started, but it seems like you can just buy lots of models that you like the look of and have a pretty competitive army. Try that in 40k. The low model count means that I might actually own a fully painted army one day, something that seems incredibly rare in 40k.
Your point about terrain shows your ignorance, and I CBA to link all of the different Infinity terrain [MDF, hardfoam, resin, and yes, some card] I've got bookmarked ready to spend my hard earned on.
Large scale wargames are great, if you have the time and the patience. I don't have either, with time restraints due to full time job, wife who I like to spend time with when I'm not working etc., and the lack of patience to spend an hour setting up before I roll any dice, and having to wait half an hour or more before I get my go again. I certainly won't miss having to lug my Kaiser3 and scenery bin around.
Anyway I'm not adding much to the Eldar stuff so I'll duck out now. I still recommend giving Infinity a go though; it certainly made me realise how poor 40k was.
The irony of it all is that none of this matters a bit if you choose to play 40k using only 10-20 models in sub 500 point games. All of the imbalances people talk about are magnified at the army sized 'wars'.
PC games can be played on a LAN, with your friends, too, and requires a tiny fraction of the setup and cleanup even of simple tabletop games. In your situation, I'm surprised you wouldn't even consider it. Between the ages of about 20-35, I played a lot more PC games than tabletop, because I had a lot less free time.
The funny thing with infinity is that my friends and I had the opposite experience -- we bought the models, played the game, and appreciated how 40k just had so much more to offer. The few infinity games we play feel so... bare... Like the opposite of "the rule of cool"
Reason for my post was in response to MWHistorian talking about how the new Eldar dex is an example of the decline of 40k, which I agree with. Almost not worth responding to but I don't play PC games because I like the human interaction - it's an excuse to meet my mates. Sitting around in my own filth playing WoW just doesn't appeal anymore.
Plus, one of the best things about Infinity for me is that it is incredibly easy to own different factions due to the low model count and therefore low price for each army. I'm actually thinking of getting an army of each of the different factions as I'm finding it really hard to settle on one due to the excellent background and models. I've got three already after adding a few bits to OI and buying a Haqqislam starter plus some models I liked the look of. I've only just started, but it seems like you can just buy lots of models that you like the look of and have a pretty competitive army. Try that in 40k. The low model count means that I might actually own a fully painted army one day, something that seems incredibly rare in 40k.
Your point about terrain shows your ignorance, and I CBA to link all of the different Infinity terrain [MDF, hardfoam, resin, and yes, some card] I've got bookmarked ready to spend my hard earned on.
Large scale wargames are great, if you have the time and the patience. I don't have either, with time restraints due to full time job, wife who I like to spend time with when I'm not working etc., and the lack of patience to spend an hour setting up before I roll any dice, and having to wait half an hour or more before I get my go again. I certainly won't miss having to lug my Kaiser3 and scenery bin around.
Anyway I'm not adding much to the Eldar stuff so I'll duck out now. I still recommend giving Infinity a go though; it certainly made me realise how poor 40k was.
The irony of it all is that none of this matters a bit if you choose to play 40k using only 10-20 models in sub 500 point games. All of the imbalances people talk about are magnified at the army sized 'wars'.
PC games can be played on a LAN, with your friends, too, and requires a tiny fraction of the setup and cleanup even of simple tabletop games. In your situation, I'm surprised you wouldn't even consider it. Between the ages of about 20-35, I played a lot more PC games than tabletop, because I had a lot less free time.
The funny thing with infinity is that my friends and I had the opposite experience -- we bought the models, played the game, and appreciated how 40k just had so much more to offer. The few infinity games we play feel so... bare... Like the opposite of "the rule of cool"
I lump Infinity in with X-Wing (and in relation to gaming the Wii U), it's a nice side game but it can't be my main focus. As you say there just aren't enough options, but they go fast enough and it's easy enough to get a playable force that when you want a break from 40k but still want to play something they are great. To me Infinity has more of a console tactical rpg but on the tabletop game play than 40k which really has no good equivalent in video games.
Sure if you want to take the easy route, taking a picture with your cell phone. I had to pause a youtube video, over and over, while taking screen shots, resize and edit all those snap shots together.
Well, 20 minutes of my life I could have spent more productively
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MWHistorian wrote: I guess "7th is the most balance edition evar!" has been proven wrong.
They are just balancing them all against Necrons
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TheKbob wrote: If the worst is all true, I'd come out of 40k retirement to make a curdled, aged dairy product based Eldar armies. I'd have Jetbikes in various Swiss, American, Feta, and Havarti formations. My Farseer and Warlocks will specialize in Cheddarmancy. My Wraithbrie units will be share their D-lightful capabilities.
And my opponents will like my army if they know what's gouda for them.
Exalted!!
It's important to have a gouda sense a humor about 40K and not take it to seriously
I lump Infinity in with X-Wing (and in relation to gaming the Wii U), it's a nice side game but it can't be my main focus. As you say there just aren't enough options, but they go fast enough and it's easy enough to get a playable force that when you want a break from 40k but still want to play something they are great. To me Infinity has more of a console tactical rpg but on the tabletop game play than 40k which really has no good equivalent in video games.
Yes -- this is exactly how I feel!
The two main reasons I play 40k is that I love the hobby/models/fluff, and that I want to enact spectacular scifi wars. I want to have a blast with my friends playing something that looks and feels awesome, and that's more important to me than bulletproof rules. It's easier to fix the rules (just change them) than it is to fix bad models or a lack of models or a game that just doesn't support that scale of models.
Of course, I'd rather have more balance than less; it's just not really a deal breaker, and as someone else mentioned a couple of pages back, if your buddy is destroying you with the latest gizmo, just ask them to ease off. For most reasonable people, it's actually not that fun just going into a game and knowing you're going to win.
I don't know if someone pointed this out already, but the new kit comes with the parts to make all 3 scatter lasers (or shuriken cannons, or w/e).
Sorry if this was already posted. I didn't read every one of the 51 pages. The is a sidebar, also, that specifically says you can configure all 3 to scatter lasers or shuriken cannons, so the text is as unambiguous as can be.
This is what happens when GW gets drunk at the office. They start to think that "Them Eldar sure look like they want the D" as they pee their pants laughing(literally )....only Phil Kelly wasn't laughing, he was biding his time...
Great White wrote: Now is there any way in hell this could be wrong? At all, I mean anyway?
I still say that points cost is king. It's great that WK gets D weapons, but at what cost? I can't imagine that it stays at 240, which was one of the beauties of the WK (compared to IK, for instance). Buffing it to be similar to IK and BT should mean that it gets pricier, too.
Great White wrote: Now is there any way in hell this could be wrong? At all, I mean anyway?
I still say that points cost is king. It's great that WK gets D weapons, but at what cost? I can't imagine that it stays at 240, which was one of the beauties of the WK (compared to IK, for instance). Buffing it to be similar to IK and BT should mean that it gets pricier, too.
Great White wrote: Now is there any way in hell this could be wrong? At all, I mean anyway?
I still say that points cost is king. It's great that WK gets D weapons, but at what cost? I can't imagine that it stays at 240, which was one of the beauties of the WK (compared to IK, for instance). Buffing it to be similar to IK and BT should mean that it gets pricier, too.
Yep. I got an early copy of the WD here and none of it is photoshopped or a mistake. Eldar is set to become the only army worth taking in everything but the friendliest of games.
Now I'm just hunting a sentence that tells how they've made banshees even more useless this edition.
Guys, calm down. All this has been forseen long ago by the wise and ancient Farseer Gav Thorpe who guided the threads of the warp to coalesce in this version of Codex: Kraftworld Cheddar. As it was in the midst of 3rd edition, so shall it be yet again for your own good and the sake of the game...
Talys wrote: I don't understand something. How are people getting that you can just spam windriders?
Every single one of the warhosts as a variety of units as required units.
Even the Windrider host requires: 1 Farseer, 1 Warlock Conclave, 3 units of Windriders, 1 Vyper squadron.
You don't have to use the formations...
Oh, I see, run them as CAD. That makes sense, I guess. Somehow, I think the war host will be better, though. You can still take 30 windriders, but the problem is, 3 squads of 40 shots is not all that efficient, IMO.
warboss wrote: Guys, calm down. All this has been forseen long ago by the wise and ancient Farseer Gav Thorpe who guided the threads of the warp to coalesce in this version of Codex: Kraftworld Cheddar. As it was in the midst of 3rd edition, so shall it be yet again for your own good and the sake of the game...
This post is a cut above the rest. It really takes the cake.
Now all I need is confirmation of D weapons/cost of Wraithguard and Wraithknights.
Talys wrote: I don't understand something. How are people getting that you can just spam windriders?
Every single one of the warhosts as a variety of units as required units.
Even the Windrider host requires: 1 Farseer, 1 Warlock Conclave, 3 units of Windriders, 1 Vyper squadron.
You don't have to use the formations...
Oh, I see, run them as CAD. That makes sense, I guess. Somehow, I think the war host will be better, though. You can still take 30 windriders, but the problem is, 3 squads of 40 shots is not all that efficient, IMO.
Yeah, run them as CAD. It's not like they really need any formation bonuses for them to sing... And they've Objective Secured in CAD right?
Do we know what the bonuses are yet? Because they could get even more silly.
warboss wrote: Guys, calm down. All this has been forseen long ago by the wise and ancient Farseer Gav Thorpe who guided the threads of the warp to coalesce in this version of Codex: Kraftworld Cheddar. As it was in the midst of 3rd edition, so shall it be yet again for your own good and the sake of the game...
The return of the Alaitoc disruption table basically confirmed then?
warboss wrote: Guys, calm down. All this has been forseen long ago by the wise and ancient Farseer Gav Thorpe who guided the threads of the warp to coalesce in this version of Codex: Kraftworld Cheddar. As it was in the midst of 3rd edition, so shall it be yet again for your own good and the sake of the game...
This post is a cut above the rest. It really takes the cake.
Now all I need is confirmation of D weapons/cost of Wraithguard and Wraithknights.
Thanks. If you stick around and follow 40k long enough, you see the same mistakes being made over and over by the "new" developers and the same tired excsues trotted out to cover them up. Back in 3rd edition when the Eldar codex dropped and was the very unbalanced (especially with the Craftworld supplement), it was all about the starcannons and wraithlords. Now, it's apparently (so far) the scatter lasers and wraithknights. As much as things change, they stay the same....
warboss wrote: Guys, calm down. All this has been forseen long ago by the wise and ancient Farseer Gav Thorpe who guided the threads of the warp to coalesce in this version of Codex: Kraftworld Cheddar. As it was in the midst of 3rd edition, so shall it be yet again for your own good and the sake of the game...
The return of the Alaitoc disruption table basically confirmed then?
We haven't been previewed those pages yet but your skill at casting the cheesecubes of fate is strong indeed! At $58, it's equal to the price of the marine book so might have pages devoted to rules for each kraftworld just like the marine codex does for chapters.
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Leth wrote: Sigh, GW was doing so well with their books until now.....but this...this just crosses the line.
O well......
Going vegan then or just ovolactovegetarian? (looking at your sig)
warboss wrote: Guys, calm down. All this has been forseen long ago by the wise and ancient Farseer Gav Thorpe who guided the threads of the warp to coalesce in this version of Codex: Kraftworld Cheddar. As it was in the midst of 3rd edition, so shall it be yet again for your own good and the sake of the game...
The return of the Alaitoc disruption table basically confirmed then?
We haven't been previewed those pages yet but your skill at casting the cheesecubes of fate is strong indeed! At $58, it's equal to the price of the marine book so might have pages devoted to rules for each kraftworld just like the marine codex does for chapters.
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Leth wrote: Sigh, GW was doing so well with their books until now.....but this...this just crosses the line.
O well......
Going vegan then or just ovolactovegetarian? (looking at your sig)
Lol, nah I got my crabs on the way and more FW than I can count.
I am not complaining so much as sad. I still like a majority of the game and most of it is positive. Doesn't mean I dont know crap when I see it. Based on their last books I was excited but them changing it up so I could bring a bunch of armies I wanted to play. Like I was looking forward to getting a PS2 on christmas and I got a used NES.
Luckily I cant see a sane TO allowing this to fly so there is that.
At nearly $14 a jetbike, how many can you afford to spam ?
It's like when people where talking about Necron Tomb Blades a couple months back. Sure they are cool, but the average player is not going to own 10, let alone 30 of them
adamsouza wrote: At nearly $14 a jetbike, how many can you afford to spam ?
It's like when people where talking about Necron Tomb Blades a couple months back. Sure they are cool, but the average player is not going to own 10, let alone 30 of them
adamsouza wrote: At nearly $14 a jetbike, how many can you afford to spam ?
It's like when people where talking about Necron Tomb Blades a couple months back. Sure they are cool, but the average player is not going to own 10, let alone 30 of them
I really don't understand how "don't worry, it's just going to reward the players who have more money than you" is supposed to be a comforting thought.
adamsouza wrote: At nearly $14 a jetbike, how many can you afford to spam ?
It's like when people where talking about Necron Tomb Blades a couple months back. Sure they are cool, but the average player is not going to own 10, let alone 30 of them
Is that really the point though?
Yes, and no. Yes, because if you take Grotesques ask an example, they INSANELY expensive and I don't know anyone that spams them. I would love to own 20, but that would be $500 for jack all in models, LOL. I mean, what possessed them to make them in singles for $25, and deploy them in 3's.
No, because, $14 a jetbike is not really that expensive. Times 30 models, that's $420 MSRP, and after some discount that you will surely get for buying TEN boxes of them, it will be closer to $300. If you were to put scatter lasers in them all, that would be 27 point models, or 810 points -- and $300 is about right for somewhere between half and a third of an army.
adamsouza wrote: At nearly $14 a jetbike, how many can you afford to spam ?
It's like when people where talking about Necron Tomb Blades a couple months back. Sure they are cool, but the average player is not going to own 10, let alone 30 of them
Is that really the point though?
Yes, and no. Yes, because if you take Grotesques ask an example, they INSANELY expensive and I don't know anyone that spams them. I would love to own 20, but that would be $500 for jack all in models, LOL. I mean, what possessed them to make them in singles for $25, and deploy them in 3's.
No, because, $14 a jetbike is not really that expensive. Times 30 models, that's $420 MSRP, and after some discount that you will surely get for buying TEN boxes of them, it will be closer to $300. If you were to put scatter lasers in them all, that would be 27 point models, or 810 points -- and $300 is about right for somewhere between half and a third of an army.
Even if they were prohibitively expensive, it doesn't excuse how unbalanced the rules are, is what I meant.
And you'd still find people that would pay it, I wager.
There are enough scatter lasers and bikes around in just bits that people will make it happen.
Its more about just how far it crosses the line. While I didnt like wave serpents I could handle it, there were at least some ways to deal with it.
There is literally nothing you can do about that level of fire power.
For that many points marines cant even get that many BOLTER shots. at the cheapest it costs 1400 points in rapid fire range to get 200 bolter shots. Eldar bikes get 40 for 270. 1350 for 200 str 6 shots at 36.
Nothing can survive that kind of fire power for that many points. Like I said I am a lover of the game, and overall they have done a great job with most of the recent books, really since the last eldar codex(baring few exceptions). I have no idea what they were on when they priced these.
This is the first book where I can see people straight up saying "NO" and modifying the rules, same with troops with D weapons and the like. If half of what we have seen is correct and not errataed by GW itself I cant see a reasonable tournament allowing Eldar as they are. Even without the context of the rest of the book it is ridiculous.
warboss wrote: Guys, calm down. All this has been forseen long ago by the wise and ancient Farseer Gav Thorpe who guided the threads of the warp to coalesce in this version of Codex: Kraftworld Cheddar. As it was in the midst of 3rd edition, so shall it be yet again for your own good and the sake of the game...
Props to Warboss for coining the new internet name for the new eldar codex! Codex Eldar: Kraftworlds.
Curious that the jetbikes get a full supply of upgrade weapons when the skittarii didn't.
I recon that every serious eldar player has been waiting for these plastic jetbikes for many years and they will put the coin into getting multiple full squads - plus, there are folks out there who already did the army of jetbikes thing so you will definetly see the hilarious amount of shots if you see jetbikes.
adamsouza wrote: At nearly $14 a jetbike, how many can you afford to spam ?
It's like when people where talking about Necron Tomb Blades a couple months back. Sure they are cool, but the average player is not going to own 10, let alone 30 of them
It's not like jetbikes weren't popular before this. Every Eldar player I personally know has at least 20 of the things, and I was under the impression that jetbike lists were rather popular at one time. I'm not an Eldar dude myself but I can't even tell what they changed with these new models, aside from the pose of the rider.
My point is that there are plenty of jetbikes already out there. Wraithknights, too, were extremely popular before this codex. I think there are plenty of people who have existing armies that just turned into solid gold.
Refresh my memory, I dumped my Eldar codex weeks ago when the rumors of the new release started, can Jetbikes hit and run, or can we tarpit them in assault ?
You know, I have to applaud GW for bringing the community together like this.
Finally, we can (almost) all stand here, nodding in agreement for once, that this book is completely idiotic and, at least for this moment in time, GW has given up all semblance of balance to sell the huge stockpile of Eldar jetbikes they must have amassed since the kit was first showcased at least 8 years ago.
Even if they were prohibitively expensive, it doesn't excuse how unbalanced the rules are, is what I meant.
And you'd still find people that would pay it, I wager.
I don't disagree -- I'm just pointing out that there have been some unbalanced units that don't get abused (or, as much) because of REALLY high model costs, or at least, incredibly low perceived model value.
At the price that the bikes are now, it isn't a cost barrier at all. It isn't any more expensive (dollar per point) than Imperial Knights.
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Accolade wrote: You know, I have to applaud GW for bringing the community together like this.
Finally, we can (almost) all stand here, nodding in agreement for once, that this book is completely idiotic and, at least for this moment in time, GW has given up all semblance of balance to sell the huge stockpile of Eldar jetbikes they must have amassed since the kit was first showcased at least 8 years ago.
Kumbaya, my brothers.
I wouldn't actually pass judgment on the codex, til we see the book, and know how much all the units cost in terms of point values (also, what some of the special rules do). The jetbikes look really solid, for sure, though.
adamsouza wrote: Refresh my memory, I dumped my Eldar codex weeks ago when the rumors of the new release started, can Jetbikes hit and run, or can we tarpit them in assault ?
As per the last codex, they do not have the Hit and Run special rule.
adamsouza wrote: We have different opinions on what is expensive then.
10 boxes @ $41 + 3 boxes @ $33
$509 ($407.20 after 20% discount) for only 960 points of an army is still beyond what most players are willing to spend in my experience.
How many White Scars biker armies do you see in your meta ?
Yeah, cause nobody out there has any Eldar Jetbikes already out of the last 20 years or so of their existence.
I've also got a load of SM bikes, certainly enough to field a respectable 1500 WS list, that I haven't is purely because I don't play unpainted and I've yet to get up the momentum to do them. Took all of two months to pick up 30 or so mostly either NOS or grey plastic on eBay, and not a lot of cash.
adamsouza wrote: Refresh my memory, I dumped my Eldar codex weeks ago when the rumors of the new release started, can Jetbikes hit and run, or can we tarpit them in assault ?
Are you thinking of Battle Focus? Lets you shoot and run or run and shoot (during the shooting phase). If so, yes -- both the old and new jetbikes have battle focus. But, we don't know yet if battle focus has changed (I doubt it, but who knows).
Accolade wrote: You know, I have to applaud GW for bringing the community together like this.
Finally, we can (almost) all stand here, nodding in agreement for once, that this book is completely idiotic and, at least for this moment in time, GW has given up all semblance of balance to sell the huge stockpile of Eldar jetbikes they must have amassed since the kit was first showcased at least 8 years ago.
Kumbaya, my brothers.
I wouldn't actually pass judgment on the codex, til we see the book, and know how much all the units cost in terms of point values (also, what some of the special rules do). The jetbikes look really solid, for sure, though.
I think jetbikes alone do it. As you posted, the new kit comes with three scatter lasers- they're TELLING customers to buy this kit so you can crush your enemies with nary a thought in your head. Wraithknights and wraithguard *sound* to be boosted if they are running around with D weapons (though it doesn't sound like it's been figured out if they're template weapons).
Personally, I really just want to see wave serpents lose laser lock, and then drop by 30 points to "balance" out the loss of the ability.
I was waiting to buy the Bikes for when the sculpt got updated. Sadly, now I HAVE to buy the bikes if I want to use the Decurion formation thing. I am not a fan of the Guardians or the heavy weapon of Vaul models. I was hoping for a core Decurion that was based on Aspect warriors. So I guess I am only doing CAD's and maybe the mini formations within the Decurion.
adamsouza wrote: Refresh my memory, I dumped my Eldar codex weeks ago when the rumors of the new release started, can Jetbikes hit and run, or can we tarpit them in assault ?
As per the last codex, they do not have the Hit and Run special rule.
So we can tarpit them, and eliminate their high folume of fire. There is only so much room on a table for 30+ jet bikes to hide out of charge range, while mainaining line of site, to make use of their scatter lasers.
I don't even have to change my current army lists to counter that.
adamsouza wrote: We have different opinions on what is expensive then. 10 boxes @ $41 + 3 boxes @ $33
$509 ($407.20 after 20% discount) for only 960 points of an army is still beyond what most players are willing to spend in my experience.
How many White Scars biker armies do you see in your meta ?
Well, let's go back to MSRP for a sec. 10 boxes - $410 MSRP. With scatter lasers, which everyone is talking about, you're going to be at 810 points. I dunno what other boxes you mean, so let me leave those alone.
If you were to play 3 imperial knights you'd pay $420 MSRP for 1,125 points. To play the BA Angel's Fury formation at 1,080 points, you need $380 MSRP for 3 Storm Ravens and 30 tactical marines (You'll probably need to buy or make use some bits for specials too, since you don't want 1 plasma 1 melta 1 flamer). So yes, there's a premium, but it's not exactly towering.
And yeah, your "typical" armies aren't going to have 30 jetbikes OR 30 30 SM bikes. Transporting 30 jetbikes is also an issue.
adamsouza wrote: We have different opinions on what is expensive then.
10 boxes @ $41 + 3 boxes @ $33
$509 ($407.20 after 20% discount) for only 960 points of an army is still beyond what most players are willing to spend in my experience.
How many White Scars biker armies do you see in your meta ?
Well, let's go back to MSRP for a sec. 10 boxes - $410 MSRP. With scatter lasers, which everyone is talking about, you're going to be at 810 points. I dunno what other boxes you mean, so let me leave those alone.
If you were to play 3 imperial knights you'd pay $420 MSRP for 1,125 points. To play the BA Angel's Fury formation at 1,080 points, you need $380 MSRP for 3 Storm Ravens and 30 tactical marines. So yes, there's a premium, but it's not exactly towering.
And yeah, your "typical" armies aren't going to have 30 jetbikes OR 30 30 SM bikes. Transporting 30 jetbikes is also an issue.
By the sound of things transporting or buying them won't be an issue. You can just say that you'll be bringing 30+ scatriders, no-one will agree to play you and you can go home content in your martial prowess and without having to spend any money on models.
By the sound of things transporting or buying them won't be an issue. You can just say that you'll be bringing 30+ scatriders, no-one will agree to play you and you can go home content in your martial prowess and without having to spend any money on models.
Hahahaha... who knew 40k was such an easy game to win. You just made it much easier for WAAC players!
adamsouza wrote: $509 ($407.20 after 20% discount) for only 960 points of an army is still beyond what most players are willing to spend in my experience.
Then your experience is some bizarre alternate world that has nothing to do with the real one. $4-500 for 1000 points is about $0.50 per point. Compare that to a squad of basic guardsmen at $0.60 per point (don't forget you have to buy the HWT), or a Rhino at $1.00 per point, and the jetbikes are a pretty reasonable deal. The only way the jetbikes are way beyond the price of an average army is if the "average army" is ebay salvage with awful paint and half the pieces broken.
adamsouza wrote: Refresh my memory, I dumped my Eldar codex weeks ago when the rumors of the new release started, can Jetbikes hit and run, or can we tarpit them in assault ?
As per the last codex, they do not have the Hit and Run special rule.
So we can tarpit them, and eliminate their high folume of fire. There is only so much room on a table for 30+ jet bikes to hide out of charge range, while mainaining line of site, to make use of their scatter lasers.
I don't even have to change my current army lists to counter that.
Perhaps this gives me a reason to field Hormagaunts or Jeanstealers instead of using dakka-nids like I usually do. The problem is probably going to be catching them. GW did say that the new bikes would be the fastest unit in 40k, right?
adamsouza wrote: $509 ($407.20 after 20% discount) for only 960 points of an army is still beyond what most players are willing to spend in my experience.
Then your experience is some bizarre alternate world that has nothing to do with the real one. $4-500 for 1000 points is about $0.50 per point. Compare that to a squad of basic guardsmen at $0.60 per point (don't forget you have to buy the HWT), or a Rhino at $1.00 per point, and the jetbikes are a pretty reasonable deal. The only way the jetbikes are way beyond the price of an average army is if the "average army" is ebay salvage with awful paint and half the pieces broken.
Yeah, I think people are forgetting just how expensive building a 40k army is!
The meta discussion included the psyker added to each squad for pschic buffs to make them more usefull. I gather if you have enough money to field 30 bikes you're going to spring they extra for the Psykers to go with them as well.
I'm glad you mentioned Imprial Knights. How often are you facing 3+ Imperial Knights ? How often is that Imperial Knight player bringing a second army with him for when people refuse to play his Imperial Knights force ?
Someone whips out 40 Eldar bikers, you can just politely decline to play them.
Personally, someone whips out the Eldar Bike Force Of Doom I'll be whipping out the Necron Scarab Farm that makes people cry
The meta discussion included the psyker added to each squad for pschic buffs to make them more usefull. I gather if you have enough money to field 30 bikes you're going to spring they extra for the Psykers to go with them as well.
I'm glad you mentioned Imprial Knights. How often are you facing 3+ Imperial Knights ? How often is that Imperial Knight player bringing a second army with him for when people refuse to play his Imperial Knights force ?
Someone whips out 40 Eldar bikers, you can just politely decline to play them.
Personally, someone whips out the Eldar Bike Force Of Doom I'll be whipping out the Necron Scarab Farm that makes people cry
adamsouza wrote: At nearly $14 a jetbike, how many can you afford to spam ?
It's like when people where talking about Necron Tomb Blades a couple months back. Sure they are cool, but the average player is not going to own 10, let alone 30 of them
Resourcefull people could use different models as proxy like the Deadzone enforcer jetbikes
Turn 1 I have scarabs tarpitting them, up to charge distance into their deployment zone, with 4+RP, adding 10 bases per turn to the unit. Spyders are not impressed with S6 AP6, and scarabs stats are so low the S6 doesn't matter as well. Plus I have the wraiths which a couple months ago were they "sky is falling" unit that was supposed to break the game, as well as Tomb Blades, andother "Sky is falling unit" who ignore the windriders jink saves. Not to mention that most of my army is rocking 4+/3+ saves with 4+ RP which reduces the casualties from the windriders not tied up in assualt.
Seriously, is there some selective Dakka memory disorder where people forget how "impossible" to kill the necrons allegedly are ?
Jetbikes are easy to counter. If there's 40 of them that's units of 10/7, that big of a footprint makes them vulnerable to multi-assult which is particularly bad considering they're LD8. Although clearly they're biggest weakness is AP2/3 weapons and AV13.
With Marines you've got Cent star, bike grav, Relic whirlwind that ignores cover, Sicarian etc.
Nids have Mawlocs and lictors, which in this instance would works wonders against a clumped up bike army.
Chaos/Daemons has hounds, D. Princes and helldrakes.
Tau has farsight, sky rays and tides.
So if you're really having problems with them you have a large selection of codexs you can ally with. Also if you get them to jink, their shooting ablility goes right down.
Saying that I wouldnt expect to see more than 21 of them in any given army. Not spamming them makes them 1000% more effective.
iddy00711 wrote: Jetbikes are easy to counter. If there's 40 of them that's units of 10/7, that big of a footprint makes them vulnerable to multi-assult which is particularly bad considering they're LD8. Although clearly they're biggest weakness is AP2/3 weapons and AV13.
With Marines you've got Cent star, bike grav, Relic whirlwind that ignores cover, Sicarian etc.
Nids have Mawlocs and lictors, which in this instance would works wonders against a clumped up bike army.
Chaos/Daemons has hounds, D. Princes and helldrakes.
Tau has farsight, sky rays and tides.
So if you're really having problems with them you have a large selection of codexs you can ally with. Also if you get them to jink, their shooting ablility goes right down.
Saying that I wouldnt expect to see more than 21 of them in any given army. Not spamming them makes them 1000% more effective.
Also the fact that each model has 4 shots a piece, when you start killing them their amount of shots goes down exponentially
I would gladly invest in that many jetbikes if it got enough players to realize that there are better games at cheaper costs; I'd fall on that sword...
But seriously, I like Eldar and had 20 Jetbikes I ordered from eBay prior to selling off all my armies for other games. I could easily huck an army I'm not currently playing, get back a mountain of jetbikes, and go to town.
It's just the issue stated here. I'd either roll over people or no one would want to play me. The people left playing 40k are the "hook, line and sinker" crowd Forging Narratives and going full on scrub mode. They want it to be to be "PvE" when it's a "PvP" game.
And I might be removed from 7E, but folks trivializing "it's easy to counter jetbikes" fail the reasoning test of only 60% of that army is jetbikes. The rest is likely D Strength weaponry, grav tanks, or gargantuan creatures. Being able to apply your weaponry at full strength would actively require the Eldar player to play really, really bad. Stealing a Warmachine term, but when you're "in the dojo", or doing list building based on scenarios in your head, you have to assume both players are equally good. And a top level player with 160 S6 shots that can hit nearly any point on the table first turn and that's only 60% of his fire power... Yea, no. That's bad.
And remember, 50% of the time, you're eating that first turn with no remorse. You can literally park that army on the back board edge of your deployment zone (save "Football" deployment) and be super safe from most volume of attacks. Or just put some of the stuff in reserve if that's still a thing.
And the few answers folks are saying are either rare, not in the core rules, banned at events, are just not good for TAC. When you're hoping CSM showed up with three helldrakes (you know, those flyers that super nerfed again and will have a hard time flaming bikes after the first assault and likely to be shot in the butt), things are getting pretty dire.
Sorry to "SO SRZ BZNSS." I'll go back to cheese puns.
Turn 1 I have scarabs tarpitting them, up to charge distance into their deployment zone, with 4+RP, adding 10 bases per turn to the unit. Spyders are not impressed with S6 AP6, and scarabs stats are so low the S6 doesn't matter as well. Plus I have the wraiths which a couple months ago were they "sky is falling" unit that was supposed to break the game, as well as Tomb Blades, andother "Sky is falling unit" who ignore the windriders jink saves. Not to mention that most of my army is rocking 4+/3+ saves with 4+ RP which reduces the casualties from the windriders not tied up in assualt.
Seriously, is there some selective Dakka memory disorder where people forget how "impossible" to kill the necrons allegedly are ?
Presumably it would be the mentioned mass ranged D weapons they can still fit in. As we both know D weapons hilariously delete both your spyders and wraiths with you having zero chance to stop it.
Its the whole picture as it appears that seems to be the greater issue.
Me I run mech necrons where D weapons would absolutely smash me in short order. As a 2-6 removes my shields and 6 likely just plain removes the vehicle. D weapons ignore RP so really I left with no defense against the possible mass D weapons.
I suspect most armies are on the same footing as it looks right now.
1. You can spend 500-600 points on a hard counter to 1080 points
2. Jetbikes can be played against like normal bikes and if youre smart enough/ have the right tools you can wipe them out by turn 4. (O and add barrage weapons to the list)
The meta discussion included the psyker added to each squad for pschic buffs to make them more usefull. I gather if you have enough money to field 30 bikes you're going to spring they extra for the Psykers to go with them as well.
I'm glad you mentioned Imprial Knights. How often are you facing 3+ Imperial Knights ? How often is that Imperial Knight player bringing a second army with him for when people refuse to play his Imperial Knights force ?
Someone whips out 40 Eldar bikers, you can just politely decline to play them.
Personally, someone whips out the Eldar Bike Force Of Doom I'll be whipping out the Necron Scarab Farm that makes people cry
To be fair, I also listed Angelo's Fury. And the old wraithknight, at 240 points is more money per point. Thing is, most effective 40k armies are likely to be $700+.
You are right, on the other front, of course: if you bring super annoying units, nobody will play with you.
Ok so it costs as much as an entire army in order to spam bikes...are the average players you all generally play against spending that much with each codex release? I'm sorry that is not a valid point for most cases.
Fishboy wrote: Maybe you guys can move the arguing to a discussion thread and we can try to keep this as news and rumors.
I honestly and sincerely feel for the Eldar players. I stopped play my crons when the 6th ed codex came out, and I even caught a lot of flak for my tau (regardless of me only ever fielding 1 riptide, and having NO allies..). Now this for the eldar.
Several of my friends just had to drop eldar with the last dex, as no one wanted to play them, or they just were not "fun".
Sure, some folks who are not desperate to win with plastic soldiers might be able to gimp their own lists, so as to not steam roll people...but that's not a lot of fun either.
I was hoping they would get a new book, that was strong, but not OP, with good internal and external balance.
So far, this does not even remotely appear to be the case.
The "match ups' in the WD with the WK against various forces is just ...pathetic. Are the gw game designers so short sighted they even needed to do the battles? All of the outcomes they describe are pretty much incredibly predictable.
I'm finally about to finish painting my 1000 point jetbike heavy army--18 windriders (6 cannons) and 4 Shining Spears. Does this mean no one will want to play against me anymore?! I don't even own any extra scatter lasers I swear.
Gents you all should of seen the jetbikes coming. Remember a little while ago when tomb blades upgrades got way cheaper and every model could take a special weapon? Remember in May when Windrider Jetbikes got the same treatment - the durability of tomb blades.
Hive City Dweller wrote: Forgive my lack of reading if this was mentioned, but wouldn't a great counter to jetbike spam be Onager spam with icarus array?
I had mentioned before that Onager Icarus Array is awesome. Highly accurate, ignores cover, great range, and 4++ in squad of 3. And skyfire for every shot, too. It fills a lot of Imperium holes IMO.
Hive City Dweller wrote: Forgive my lack of reading if this was mentioned, but wouldn't a great counter to jetbike spam be Onager spam with icarus array?
What exactly is an Icarus array going to do to Jetbikes? Skyfire snapshots at at anything but Flyers, FMCs and Skimmers. Jetbikes are none of those.
Hive City Dweller wrote: Forgive my lack of reading if this was mentioned, but wouldn't a great counter to jetbike spam be Onager spam with icarus array?
What exactly is an Icarus array going to do to Jetbikes? Skyfire snapshots at at anything but Flyers, FMCs and Skimmers. Jetbikes are none of those.
Was thinking this.
The only reliable counter to the bikes that comes to mind is barrage weapons. A couple of wyverns out of LoS will at least make an eldar player think a little bit as he hoses down your army with scatter lasers.
Hive City Dweller wrote: Forgive my lack of reading if this was mentioned, but wouldn't a great counter to jetbike spam be Onager spam with icarus array?
What exactly is an Icarus array going to do to Jetbikes? Skyfire snapshots at at anything but Flyers, FMCs and Skimmers. Jetbikes are none of those.
True, they are not fliers, but with the Ad Mech rules Onagers can snap fire at BS of 2. That's not insignificant.
Without the icarus array they would still do well against bikes. The Neutron Laser would basically delete them, and if it's a 10 model unit even if it scatters it would probably get 3-5, a unit of 3 Onagers would probably take out one unit a turn, maybe more depending on how close other bike units are. Then getting shot at they would still need to roll 6s to glance and then would be further reduced by the 4++
Fayric wrote: Just realized the Hemlock wraithfighter is suddenly truly terifying.
It sounds like D-scythes don't get the whatever grants the Destroyer rule - it calls out Wraithguard, Wraithknights, and Vaul's Wrath D-Cannons in particular.
ronin_cse wrote: Without the icarus array they would still do well against bikes. The Neutron Laser would basically delete them, and if it's a 10 model unit even if it scatters it would probably get 3-5, a unit of 3 Onagers would probably take out one unit a turn, maybe more depending on how close other bike units are. Then getting shot at they would still need to roll 6s to glance and then would be further reduced by the 4++
You are regularly hitting 3-5 models with a little blast? 1-2 would be more likely.
I disagree with the idea of the neutron laser deleting them. With their move speed it will be difficult to get clear shots on them, usually they will be out of line of sight, or in cover. Even if not in cover they can jink. With a 4+ cover save you will need 24 neutron hits to wipe the squad out. That's not an easy number to achieve.
Best counters would be barrage to hit hit them whilst they hide, Heldrake flamers or other ignores cover ap3 weapons (especially LoS ignoring or on fast vehicles) or a large alphastrke to cripple their squads before they can shred your army.
Hate to say it, but i been waiting on new jet bikes. I have 3 boxes, maybe 4, I did not build because I hated how it looked like a nose. Just ordered 10x box of the windrider, and 5x of sky runner. They just look too awesome not to field that many.
iddy00711 wrote: Jetbikes are easy to counter. If there's 40 of them that's units of 10/7, that big of a footprint makes them vulnerable to multi-assult which is particularly bad considering they're LD8. Although clearly they're biggest weakness is AP2/3 weapons and AV13.
With Marines you've got Cent star, bike grav, Relic whirlwind that ignores cover, Sicarian etc.
Nids have Mawlocs and lictors, which in this instance would works wonders against a clumped up bike army.
Chaos/Daemons has hounds, D. Princes and helldrakes.
Tau has farsight, sky rays and tides.
So if you're really having problems with them you have a large selection of codexs you can ally with. Also if you get them to jink, their shooting ablility goes right down.
Saying that I wouldnt expect to see more than 21 of them in any given army. Not spamming them makes them 1000% more effective.
Also the fact that each model has 4 shots a piece, when you start killing them their amount of shots goes down exponentially
Plus 36" range, psychic buffs. I think OP is confused. Jetbikes are very strong and hard to counter. Plus, they can always Jink if they take too much heat...
really really weird that they didn't include the part to make shining spears. unless I'm missing something, they just would have to put a few hands, and lances.
OMG the sky is falling! Nobody will ever play against my eldar again. Oh, except at leagues, tournaments and practicing for tournaments, where I play 95% of my games. If you want to forfeit and save me 3 hours of whooping your ass, fine by me. I'll go grab another adult beverage and watch someone else's game.
If it's as broken as it looks. Yep. Never playing an Eldar player again until they fix it. How entertaining will it be never using them in any games if no one wants to play with you?
Toofast wrote: OMG the sky is falling! Nobody will ever play against my eldar again. Oh, except at leagues, tournaments and practicing for tournaments, where I play 95% of my games. If you want to forfeit and save me 3 hours of whooping your ass, fine by me. I'll go grab another adult beverage and watch someone else's game.
Aren't you the one constantly QQ-ing about how bad it is when there's no ballance and that we shouldn't support GW and stuff.
Gamgee wrote: If it's as broken as it looks. Yep. Never playing an Eldar player again until they fix it. How entertaining will it be never using them in any games if no one wants to play with you?
See my post above. I would love that, I'll get to drink and watch my future opponents games and get an auto win. My opponent who forfeit will most likely be DQd from the tournament for quitting just because he didn't like my list. The next round I'll get a game and he'll be sitting in his hotel room.
Toofast wrote: OMG the sky is falling! Nobody will ever play against my eldar again. Oh, except at leagues, tournaments and practicing for tournaments, where I play 95% of my games. If you want to forfeit and save me 3 hours of whooping your ass, fine by me. I'll go grab another adult beverage and watch someone else's game.
Depending what tournaments you play in, there's a decent chance a significant part of your codex will be outright banned.
I think that even 10 jetbikes with either scatterlaser or shuriken cannon is Op. Not just because the weapons but also for they have both the 3+ and are the fastest unit in 40k, if this is all true.
Gamgee wrote: If it's as broken as it looks. Yep. Never playing an Eldar player again until they fix it. How entertaining will it be never using them in any games if no one wants to play with you?
See my post above. I would love that, I'll get to drink and watch my future opponents games and get an auto win. My opponent who forfeit will most likely be DQd from the tournament for quitting just because he didn't like my list. The next round I'll get a game and he'll be sitting in his hotel room.
You misunderstand me. I would start with myself not playing Eldar. Grow it into a few small friends. Then tournaments, and then really get the Eldar just removed form tournament play or enforce strict choices on what is allowed. At least until the codex is brought in line.
Hahaha you thought I would stop with me. That's funny. Politics kiddo. It's not really a political protest if the things your protesting can still play in tournaments. Know what I mean?
Frontline gaming has already said they're going to evaluate their ranged D ban due to this codex. I highly doubt it will stand. Also, there's plenty of tournaments that aren't ITC. If they keep the ban, I can take d scythe WG and fire dragons in serpents and warp spiders or hawks instead. It's not like eldar depended on ranged D shooting to win tournaments before. Yes the lynx is good, but I didn't see it win any majors.
adamsouza wrote: We have different opinions on what is expensive then.
10 boxes @ $41 + 3 boxes @ $33
$509 ($407.20 after 20% discount) for only 960 points of an army is still beyond what most players are willing to spend in my experience.
How many White Scars biker armies do you see in your meta ?
Well, let's go back to MSRP for a sec. 10 boxes - $410 MSRP. With scatter lasers, which everyone is talking about, you're going to be at 810 points. I dunno what other boxes you mean, so let me leave those alone.
If you were to play 3 imperial knights you'd pay $420 MSRP for 1,125 points. To play the BA Angel's Fury formation at 1,080 points, you need $380 MSRP for 3 Storm Ravens and 30 tactical marines. So yes, there's a premium, but it's not exactly towering.
And yeah, your "typical" armies aren't going to have 30 jetbikes OR 30 30 SM bikes. Transporting 30 jetbikes is also an issue.
By the sound of things transporting or buying them won't be an issue. You can just say that you'll be bringing 30+ scatriders, no-one will agree to play you and you can go home content in your martial prowess and without having to spend any money on models.
Exalted for truth.
Toofast wrote: OMG the sky is falling! Nobody will ever play against my eldar again. Oh, except at leagues, tournaments and practicing for tournaments, where I play 95% of my games. If you want to forfeit and save me 3 hours of whooping your ass, fine by me. I'll go grab another adult beverage and watch someone else's game.
Gamgee wrote: If it's as broken as it looks. Yep. Never playing an Eldar player again until they fix it. How entertaining will it be never using them in any games if no one wants to play with you?
See my post above. I would love that, I'll get to drink and watch my future opponents games and get an auto win. My opponent who forfeit will most likely be DQd from the tournament for quitting just because he didn't like my list. The next round I'll get a game and he'll be sitting in his hotel room.
I will not see that as an autowin if your opponent refuse to meet 40 jetbikes. I see it more that the Eldar players who fields an army like that don't dare to field something own.
Gamgee wrote: If it's as broken as it looks. Yep. Never playing an Eldar player again until they fix it. How entertaining will it be never using them in any games if no one wants to play with you?
See my post above. I would love that, I'll get to drink and watch my future opponents games and get an auto win. My opponent who forfeit will most likely be DQd from the tournament for quitting just because he didn't like my list. The next round I'll get a game and he'll be sitting in his hotel room.
I will not see that as an autowin if your opponent refuse to meet 40 jetbikes. I see it more that the Eldar players who fields an army like that don't dare to field something own.
You must not have read many tournament FAQs. If you forfeit a game, you lose. If the forfeit is due to something other than a medical/family emergency, you're removed from the tournament. People don't spend money and take time off from work/real life to go play a tournament only to stand around and watch games because the opponent doesn't like their list. My local meta is competitive and typically you're expected to bring a good list. I see guys get crap for bringing bad lists more than for bringing cheese. It's like "come on man, do I really have to face your dark angels? Do you have that triptide list in the car? I'm practicing for NOVA here."
Gamgee wrote: If it's as broken as it looks. Yep. Never playing an Eldar player again until they fix it. How entertaining will it be never using them in any games if no one wants to play with you?
See my post above. I would love that, I'll get to drink and watch my future opponents games and get an auto win. My opponent who forfeit will most likely be DQd from the tournament for quitting just because he didn't like my list. The next round I'll get a game and he'll be sitting in his hotel room.
You misunderstand me. I would start with myself not playing Eldar. Grow it into a few small friends. Then tournaments, and then really get the Eldar just removed form tournament play or enforce strict choices on what is allowed. At least until the codex is brought in line.
Hahaha you thought I would stop with me. That's funny. Politics kiddo. It's not really a political protest if the things your protesting can still play in tournaments. Know what I mean?
Let's take a poll on who cares what you personally decide what is legal and what shouldn't be allowed on a 40k table. Please do that and see where your voice takes you. You might get your friends to boycott Eldar too, but no one reasonable cares about the belly aching of some random guy. Companies don't care about your complaints. Players don't care about your complaints. I would be happy to never play against you because you want to blanket ban Eldar. You do not seem like the sort of person I even want to casually game with. One less person I have to hear 'oh that race is so cheesy and that's why you won'. The game rules aren't meant to cater to Gamgee from DakkaDakka. There is a lot more than just what you deem appropriate.
Gamgee wrote: If it's as broken as it looks. Yep. Never playing an Eldar player again until they fix it. How entertaining will it be never using them in any games if no one wants to play with you?
See my post above. I would love that, I'll get to drink and watch my future opponents games and get an auto win. My opponent who forfeit will most likely be DQd from the tournament for quitting just because he didn't like my list. The next round I'll get a game and he'll be sitting in his hotel room.
I will not see that as an autowin if your opponent refuse to meet 40 jetbikes. I see it more that the Eldar players who fields an army like that don't dare to field something own.
You must not have read many tournament FAQs. If you forfeit a game, you lose. If the forfeit is due to something other than a medical/family emergency, you're removed from the tournament. People don't spend money and take time off from work/real life to go play a tournament only to stand around and watch games because the opponent doesn't like their list. My local meta is competitive and typically you're expected to bring a good list. I see guys get crap for bringing bad lists more than for bringing cheese. It's like "come on man, do I really have to face your dark angels? Do you have that triptide list in the car? I'm practicing for NOVA here."
While you get to the car to bring the triptide list don't forget the adult beverages! What you don't seem to get is that codex eldar in its new form is gonna tramp most lists so in your super competitive environment sooner or later everyone will switch to eldar and dring adult beverages.
Of course I know that in tournaments but I mean a local play. And in tournamnets I have played you have been banned for fielding such an army and autolose.
Q0rbin wrote: Of course I know that in tournaments but I mean a local play. And in tournamnets I have played you have been banned for fielding such an army and autolose.
So then what is the point of having a tournament? I thought we were past elementary school gym class rules where the scoreboard is turned off and we play for "fun". If you want to play for fun, go for it. The point of a tournament is to see who makes the best list and is the best general. I'm not sure how that's possible when you're banning people for bringing lists that are "too good."
Same reason competitive fighting games often ban certain characters, so that it isn't wholly unbalanced.
Edit: We've always had armies that are stronger than others, but if you get a single list continually winning not matter the skill of the players, you'll probably see something happen.
And you'll find the reason that people like competition is because competition is fun. Having no chance at winning is neither fun, enjoyable, or worth your time. Same with having no chance at losing IMO.
I can see a tournamnet bring players comes together and meet and also meet and fight new people. Ok so when 10 eldars players brings the same list ONE guy of those must have done a really good list? Right...
Gamgee wrote: If it's as broken as it looks. Yep. Never playing an Eldar player again until they fix it. How entertaining will it be never using them in any games if no one wants to play with you?
What if the Eldar player has built a list that doesn't have scatter bike spam or any D weapons?
If the Eldar codex really is too strong (like let's say 3-4 tournaments in a row you see a top 10 that's 90% full Eldar armies) it might get banned, entirely or partially. Tournaments thrive on attendance, and having a single army dominate so much is bad for business.
If the new eldar codex is counterable in the competitive environment (which it probably will be, tournament players are a crafty lot) then most TOs probwbly won't give a damn whether it wrecks casual games or not.
Gamgee wrote: If it's as broken as it looks. Yep. Never playing an Eldar player again until they fix it. How entertaining will it be never using them in any games if no one wants to play with you?
What if the Eldar player has built a list that doesn't have scatter bike spam or any D weapons?
I echo this statement to all, PLEASE before you decide to back out of a game because the opponent is playing eldar have a look at their army, it isn't fair to have to play a different codex [SPOILER](or ignore half the options in the book but this is ireelevant[\SPOILER] simply because the army you've been playing suddenly got an unneeded power boost.
Gamgee wrote: If it's as broken as it looks. Yep. Never playing an Eldar player again until they fix it. How entertaining will it be never using them in any games if no one wants to play with you?
What if the Eldar player has built a list that doesn't have scatter bike spam or any D weapons?
I echo this statement to all, PLEASE before you decide to back out of a game because the opponent is playing eldar have a look at their army, it isn't fair to have to play a different codex [SPOILER](or ignore half the options in the book but this is ireelevant[\SPOILER] simply because the army you've been playing suddenly got an unneeded power boost.
Actually that is completely relevant, it IS the entire reason people are saying no games outside of tournies w/ Eldar. In a tourny it is a free-for-all; outside of it it ISN'T FAIR HALF THE OPTIONS IN A BOOK KICK OTHER ARMIES ASS (unless the other party is entirely fine with it for some reason), this entire codex is seriously going to bring up the whole "no one wants to play me, why?" debacle for a while. Even afterwards depending how good the codex actually is, we might see entire armies shelved or hell proxied as Eldar troops.
Q0rbin wrote: Of course I know that in tournaments but I mean a local play. And in tournamnets I have played you have been banned for fielding such an army and autolose.
So then what is the point of having a tournament? I thought we were past elementary school gym class rules where the scoreboard is turned off and we play for "fun". If you want to play for fun, go for it. The point of a tournament is to see who makes the best list and is the best general. I'm not sure how that's possible when you're banning people for bringing lists that are "too good."
All tournaments are run on House Rules - none of them use ALL the RAW - army composition is just another element that they can pick and choose from and they do.
So is my ten man jetbike squad (including carefully converted warlock) with 3 shuriken cannons, that I have owned for years, still acceptable? I have no desire to convert all of them to cannons. They are dangerous enough already with my tactics.
Hive City Dweller wrote: Forgive my lack of reading if this was mentioned, but wouldn't a great counter to jetbike spam be Onager spam with icarus array?
What exactly is an Icarus array going to do to Jetbikes? Skyfire snapshots at at anything but Flyers, FMCs and Skimmers. Jetbikes are none of those.
True, they are not fliers, but with the Ad Mech rules Onagers can snap fire at BS of 2. That's not insignificant.
I brought up the Skyfire not as a counter to jetbikes, but to point out a great feature of the Onager. I don't think you need to fear people whose list and strategy depends only on jetbikes. It's decent players, who take advantage of jetbikes, and mix it up with other stuff.
Model with Icarus Array is 130 points and gives you at 48", all with Skyfire: - 1 @ S7 Ap2 - 5 @ S6 Ap4 with Ignores Cover - 2 @ S7 Ap4 with Interceptor and Twinlink Plus at 36": - 3 @ S4 Ap6 with Cognis - Crappy mobility, but its crab-legs essentially ignore terrain.
BS is as high as 7 with buff. AV12, 4HP, and 4++ when grouped in 3s.
For 135 points, you can have 5 Windrider Jetbikes which give you 36" fire: - 20 @ S6 Ap6 - Battle Focus -- they are JSJ - Super duper mobility
Both have force org charts that essentially let you spam them. So, in a shooting match, which would you prefer?
Well, you could mathhammer it all out, but I think it's a silly question, because I don't think either army would be terribly effective. The better question is, which would be more useful in an army? I don't have the answer, but I certainly don't think the Onager is horribly inferior in value. The Onager with the Icarus Array is just so flexible in its firepower, and relatively cheap. It would sure be a lot better at taking out Helldrakes
Hang on a sec... I've seen no rumours thus far regarding Aspect Warriors. Does this mean that this codex only includes Guardians, Vehicles and the like and that there'll be a separate codex for Aspect Warriors? Please tell me that's not true...
monkeypuzzle wrote: So is my ten man jetbike squad (including carefully converted warlock) with 3 shuriken cannons, that I have owned for years, still acceptable? I have no desire to convert all of them to cannons. They are dangerous enough already with my tactics.
Yeah. Shuriken Cannons haven't changed at all -- they still have Bladestorm. I would mix them up, but broadly speaking, I think I prefer Shuriken Cannons over Scatter Lasers anyhow -- especially on units with battle focus.
Toofast wrote: So then what is the point of having a tournament? I thought we were past elementary school gym class rules where the scoreboard is turned off and we play for "fun". If you want to play for fun, go for it. The point of a tournament is to see who makes the best list and is the best general. I'm not sure how that's possible when you're banning people for bringing lists that are "too good."
A list that is too good based entirely on inherent rule interactions, rather than composition or execution removes the human element from the tournament and homogenizes the metagame. Much better games than 40k understand that well and do not hesitate to change/ban metagame warping elements in competitive sanctioned play.
The Shadow wrote: Hang on a sec... I've seen no rumours thus far regarding Aspect Warriors. Does this mean that this codex only includes Guardians, Vehicles and the like and that there'll be a separate codex for Aspect Warriors? Please tell me that's not true...
Of course there are Aspect Warriors in the new codex, don't be silly. Just check the Craftworld Host detachment, it lists all the aspects in it, including various formations.
News on any changes on them is just low because all we have so far is the White Dwarf information, nothing from the codex itself yet.
The Shadow wrote: Hang on a sec... I've seen no rumours thus far regarding Aspect Warriors. Does this mean that this codex only includes Guardians, Vehicles and the like and that there'll be a separate codex for Aspect Warriors? Please tell me that's not true...
The rumors in this thread are largely inspired by the current issue of White Dwarf, since there are some bits of information to use as a platform for speculation. Other than where Aspect Warriors fit into the Eldar Detachment scheme, there is nothing about them in the issue. It's all about that D.
Q0rbin wrote: Of course I know that in tournaments but I mean a local play. And in tournamnets I have played you have been banned for fielding such an army and autolose.
So then what is the point of having a tournament? I thought we were past elementary school gym class rules where the scoreboard is turned off and we play for "fun". If you want to play for fun, go for it. The point of a tournament is to see who makes the best list and is the best general. I'm not sure how that's possible when you're banning people for bringing lists that are "too good."
Wow... So hardcore! I bet you have a rage boner the whole time you play man dollies until your opponent quits! takes tons of effort and skill finding the best of the best when the decks loaded doesn't it?
It's like bragging that you raced a marathon distance faster then you opponents except they ran and you drove your car. Sounds EXCITING!
I have a strong feeling that the wraith knight weapons will always be strength D and anything smaller will have a chance of strength D on a 6, would this still be broken or acceptable? I haven't played in a while and have never played a game with str D weapons in it. Also we don't know what's happening with different craft worlds, maybe ianden will be the only craft world that can take more than one unit of wraith guard and is limited somewhere else, maybe saim-Hann is the only craft world that can take up all of its troops with jetbikes, other craft worlds might be limited to one squad per guardian squad.
Mantle wrote: I have a strong feeling that the wraith knight weapons will always be strength D and anything smaller will have a chance of strength D on a 6, would this still be broken or acceptable? I haven't played in a while and have never played a game with str D weapons in it. Also we don't know what's happening with different craft worlds, maybe ianden will be the only craft world that can take more than one unit of wraith guard and is limited somewhere else, maybe saim-Hann is the only craft world that can take up all of its troops with jetbikes, other craft worlds might be limited to one squad per guardian squad.
I myself think its more likely its either D on a 6 or that you can combine to D like old Fire Prisms or Shadow Sepectres. True it could be straight up D, but that seems like a fantastically stupid move and goes with the sky is falling sayings. I just don't realistically see it happening.
Mantle wrote: I have a strong feeling that the wraith knight weapons will always be strength D and anything smaller will have a chance of strength D on a 6, would this still be broken or acceptable? I haven't played in a while and have never played a game with str D weapons in it. Also we don't know what's happening with different craft worlds, maybe ianden will be the only craft world that can take more than one unit of wraith guard and is limited somewhere else, maybe saim-Hann is the only craft world that can take up all of its troops with jetbikes, other craft worlds might be limited to one squad per guardian squad.
It's still pretty over the top, I mean let's say you have 5 wraith guard, shooting at literally any model, if you get one 6 on 5 dice, the models gone (right?). I don't know exactly what the odds are of at least one six on 5 dice but it isn't really bad odds to get rid of any model (literally anything, from a grot to a baneblade...)
I reckon a decent balance would be. 240 for naked Wraithknight. Then pay for weapons, the cannons costing 50 each. All the other weapons priced suitably as well
So 340 for the d shooting knight?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or something in the range of the imperial knight (370-375)...
All these people planning on refusing to play against Eldar now- what happened to communicating with people?
Said Eldar player has a list that completely outmatches you, what's the harm in just saying "your list outclasses mine by quite a bit, do you mind toning your list down?"
I know not everyone plays with a tourney list all the time and a little communication can go a long ways.
personally I don't get to play 40k enough that i refuse games and losing at toy soldiers is still better than being at work or something like that.
You kidding? Wraithknights are worth like 300pts as is, and adding str d and making them gargantuan creatures is a massive buff. They'd probably easily be worth 500pts.
DarkLink wrote: You kidding? Wraithknights are worth like 300pts as is, and adding str d and making them gargantuan creatures is a massive buff. They'd probably easily be worth 500pts.
And the rest. Compared to a Heirodule, the new wraithknight should be 600-650 lol!
BeeCee wrote: All these people planning on refusing to play against Eldar now- what happened to communicating with people?
Said Eldar player has a list that completely outmatches you, what's the harm in just saying "your list outclasses mine by quite a bit, do you mind toning your list down?"
I know not everyone plays with a tourney list all the time and a little communication can go a long ways.
personally I don't get to play 40k enough that i refuse games and losing at toy soldiers is still better than being at work or something like that.
Play on Eldar players.
Seriously, if you're having to ask people to tone their lists down because otherwise you haven't got a chance, something is seriously wrong with the game. That's the point here. Yes you can ask them to play an easier list, but you shouldn't have to.
Mantle wrote: I have a strong feeling that the wraith knight weapons will always be strength D and anything smaller will have a chance of strength D on a 6, would this still be broken or acceptable? I haven't played in a while and have never played a game with str D weapons in it. Also we don't know what's happening with different craft worlds, maybe ianden will be the only craft world that can take more than one unit of wraith guard and is limited somewhere else, maybe saim-Hann is the only craft world that can take up all of its troops with jetbikes, other craft worlds might be limited to one squad per guardian squad.
It's still pretty over the top, I mean let's say you have 5 wraith guard, shooting at literally any model, if you get one 6 on 5 dice, the models gone (right?). I don't know exactly what the odds are of at least one six on 5 dice but it isn't really bad odds to get rid of any model (literally anything, from a grot to a baneblade...)
No, it would be a 6 followed by another 6 followed by a 3+ for it to take out a Baneblade.
I think it's a bit early to get stressed about the D weapon WG because we don't know what the circumstances are yet. They could easily make it so the chance of getting a D off is so low and the models are so expensive that it is not competitively viable to take them.
They could make it so you need to pass low probability a test to get the D and lots of points in which case they price themselves out of being viable, or they could make it they have to combine fire to get the D so they aren't actually firing many D shots and combined with a high enough point value could make them too much of a liability in a competitive environment.
As much as I don't trust GW, at this point we just don't know.
DarkLink wrote: You kidding? Wraithknights are worth like 300pts as is, and adding str d and making them gargantuan creatures is a massive buff. They'd probably easily be worth 500pts.
So a knight is worth the same as a baneblade?
A Wraithknight is worth 240 with weapons because that it what the current codex says. Losing all weapons to gain GMC status is what i was saying and the weapons be a pointed upgrade
Mantle wrote: I have a strong feeling that the wraith knight weapons will always be strength D and anything smaller will have a chance of strength D on a 6, would this still be broken or acceptable? I haven't played in a while and have never played a game with str D weapons in it. Also we don't know what's happening with different craft worlds, maybe ianden will be the only craft world that can take more than one unit of wraith guard and is limited somewhere else, maybe saim-Hann is the only craft world that can take up all of its troops with jetbikes, other craft worlds might be limited to one squad per guardian squad.
It's still pretty over the top, I mean let's say you have 5 wraith guard, shooting at literally any model, if you get one 6 on 5 dice, the models gone (right?). I don't know exactly what the odds are of at least one six on 5 dice but it isn't really bad odds to get rid of any model (literally anything, from a grot to a baneblade...)
No, it would be a 6 followed by another 6 followed by a 3+ for it to take out a Baneblade.
I think it's a bit early to get stressed about the D weapon WG because we don't know what the circumstances are yet. They could easily make it so the chance of getting a D off is so low and the models are so expensive that it is not competitively viable to take them.
They could make it so you need to pass low probability a test to get the D and lots of points in which case they price themselves out of being viable, or they could make it they have to combine fire to get the D so they aren't actually firing many D shots and combined with a high enough point value could make them too much of a liability in a competitive environment.
As much as I don't trust GW, at this point we just don't know.
Ah okay, it's not quite as bad as I thought (if it is just strD on a 6). And yeah you're right we don't know yet, I just think expecting anything too reasonable might be setting yourself up for dissapointment at this point. We'll see I guess. There's still plenty of other things we do know about to moan about
BeeCee wrote: All these people planning on refusing to play against Eldar now- what happened to communicating with people?
Said Eldar player has a list that completely outmatches you, what's the harm in just saying "your list outclasses mine by quite a bit, do you mind toning your list down?"
I know not everyone plays with a tourney list all the time and a little communication can go a long ways.
personally I don't get to play 40k enough that i refuse games and losing at toy soldiers is still better than being at work or something like that.
Play on Eldar players.
Seriously, if you're having to ask people to tone their lists down because otherwise you haven't got a chance, something is seriously wrong with the game. That's the point here. Yes you can ask them to play an easier list, but you shouldn't have to.
I don't know, that has been the way in 40k since the beginning. Different people have different goals they want to accomplish in the game. Honestly, if someone is playing a casual list vs. a top tier tourney style list does it really matter if it is Eldar, Draigostar, Ad Lance or what not?
It's all about understanding who you are playing against and the situation you are playing in and i think it has less to do with any particular codex and more to do with being aware of the power level and skill level of your opponent. I know if i play a random person at a store and they look like they are putting their entire collection on the table and it's a hodge podge list, shame on me for bringing out my best tourney list.
I know that is not the answer that people really want to hear and they want to be able to play whatever list they want to and win. I get that, i've been there. As a Tyranid player it has been very hard to accept that 2/3rds of those beautiful models I have suck on the table. The social contract is immensely important to this game.
If I go to a tourney, i expect to go up against the cheesiet and best lists possible and if i bring a fluffy/casual list, I know that it's going to be tough sledding for me. I still might do it because maybe i feel like i have a great theme to my army and i want to show it off, or maybe i don't mind losing a game or two to get down to the casual brackets for some more laid back 40k.
In summation, I am not letting GW off the hook for horrible balance issues, but i think by being a respectful person the average player can mitigate alot of those balance issues.
While you get to the car to bring the triptide list don't forget the adult beverages! What you don't seem to get is that codex eldar in its new form is gonna tramp most lists so in your super competitive environment sooner or later everyone will switch to eldar and dring adult beverages.
Well, at least we'd see something different than the Decurion lists that are all over the place.
The more this game changes, the more comp rules and tailored missions seem necessary in order for competetive play that is varied to any degree to be possible.
There shouldn't be a 'casual/tournament list' divide in the first place though. I didn't say you should be able to take any list and win, there's always going to be the odd extreme skewy list that just doesn't work sometimes, but if you take a relatively balanced list, you should have a chance at the game. The game shouldn't come down to who brought the best list, it should be about who played better.
And I don't care if it's been that way since the start. They've had 30 bloody years to sort it out.
BeeCee wrote: All these people planning on refusing to play against Eldar now- what happened to communicating with people?
Said Eldar player has a list that completely outmatches you, what's the harm in just saying "your list outclasses mine by quite a bit, do you mind toning your list down?"
I know not everyone plays with a tourney list all the time and a little communication can go a long ways.
personally I don't get to play 40k enough that i refuse games and losing at toy soldiers is still better than being at work or something like that.
Play on Eldar players.
Seriously, if you're having to ask people to tone their lists down because otherwise you haven't got a chance, something is seriously wrong with the game. That's the point here. Yes you can ask them to play an easier list, but you shouldn't have to.
Holy crap, GOD FORBID we have to talk to our opponent! Good lord people do you ALWAYS play strangers when you play 40k? Is there absolutely no means of communication between you and other players outside of when you are actually playing? Maybe it's because I need to drive an hour to play but I actually manage to set up every game I play through the local facebook group. If you don't have one of those guess what: it is REALLY easy to make one, then next time you're at the store before you play interact with fellow players and tell them about it. Super easy.
As far as refusing to play Eldar players at all? Seriously grow the hell up. Most Eldar players probably won't be taking bike spam anyways as the $$$ cost is just too high (unless your meta was already super competitive, in which case isn't that par for the course?), and I'm willing to bet most people would be willing to tone down their list to make the game more fun, if they aren't they probably aren't a very fun opponent regardless of the list. I know if I end up steam rolling everyone in my meta with my normal list that's what I'll do. Refusing to play any Eldar player only hurts individual players and makes you seem like a jerk.
The last part wasn't directed at ImAGeek, just at all the posts saying they won't play Eldar at all
ImAGeek wrote: There shouldn't be a 'casual/tournament list' divide in the first place though. I didn't say you should be able to take any list and win, there's always going to be the odd extreme skewy list that just doesn't work sometimes, but if you take a relatively balanced list, you should have a chance at the game. The game shouldn't come down to who brought the best list, it should be about who played better.
And I don't care if it's been that way since the start. They've had 30 bloody years to sort it out.
ImAGeek wrote: There shouldn't be a 'casual/tournament list' divide in the first place though. I didn't say you should be able to take any list and win, there's always going to be the odd extreme skewy list that just doesn't work sometimes, but if you take a relatively balanced list, you should have a chance at the game. The game shouldn't come down to who brought the best list, it should be about who played better.
And I don't care if it's been that way since the start. They've had 30 bloody years to sort it out.
And players have had 30 years to figure out it will never be this way with 40k. There are plenty of other games out there if 40k isn't fitting your needs.
ImAGeek wrote: There shouldn't be a 'casual/tournament list' divide in the first place though. I didn't say you should be able to take any list and win, there's always going to be the odd extreme skewy list that just doesn't work sometimes, but if you take a relatively balanced list, you should have a chance at the game. The game shouldn't come down to who brought the best list, it should be about who played better.
And I don't care if it's been that way since the start. They've had 30 bloody years to sort it out.
And players have had 30 years to figure out it will never be this way with 40k. There are plenty of other games out there if 40k isn't fitting your needs.
Exactly the reason I don't play it now, doesn't change my point.
ImAGeek wrote: There shouldn't be a 'casual/tournament list' divide in the first place though. I didn't say you should be able to take any list and win, there's always going to be the odd extreme skewy list that just doesn't work sometimes, but if you take a relatively balanced list, you should have a chance at the game. The game shouldn't come down to who brought the best list, it should be about who played better.
And I don't care if it's been that way since the start. They've had 30 bloody years to sort it out.
And players have had 30 years to figure out it will never be this way with 40k. There are plenty of other games out there if 40k isn't fitting your needs.
Exactly the reason I don't play it now, doesn't change my point.
Then why oh why are you posting in the Eldar rumor thread?! If you have nothing constructive to add and it doesn't affect you why bother?
ImAGeek wrote: There shouldn't be a 'casual/tournament list' divide in the first place though. I didn't say you should be able to take any list and win, there's always going to be the odd extreme skewy list that just doesn't work sometimes, but if you take a relatively balanced list, you should have a chance at the game. The game shouldn't come down to who brought the best list, it should be about who played better.
And I don't care if it's been that way since the start. They've had 30 bloody years to sort it out.
And players have had 30 years to figure out it will never be this way with 40k. There are plenty of other games out there if 40k isn't fitting your needs.
Exactly the reason I don't play it now, doesn't change my point.
Then why oh why are you posting in the Eldar rumor thread?! If you have nothing constructive to add and it doesn't affect you why bother?
Because it's a public forum and I can post where I want? Because I still like the universe and if they made an effort with the balance I might return? I was being perfectly reasonable, I'm allowed to voice my opinion thank you very much.
ImAGeek wrote: There shouldn't be a 'casual/tournament list' divide in the first place though. I didn't say you should be able to take any list and win, there's always going to be the odd extreme skewy list that just doesn't work sometimes, but if you take a relatively balanced list, you should have a chance at the game. The game shouldn't come down to who brought the best list, it should be about who played better.
And I don't care if it's been that way since the start. They've had 30 bloody years to sort it out.
And players have had 30 years to figure out it will never be this way with 40k. There are plenty of other games out there if 40k isn't fitting your needs.
Exactly the reason I don't play it now, doesn't change my point.
Then why oh why are you posting in the Eldar rumor thread?! If you have nothing constructive to add and it doesn't affect you why bother?
Because it's a public forum and I can post where I want? Because I still like the universe and if they made an effort with the balance I might return? I was being perfectly reasonable, I'm allowed to voice my opinion thank you very much.
That is such a cliche reply . I never said you aren't allowed to post, I asked why. If those are the things you want why are you specifically bothering to post OT stuff in a rumor thread? There is already another thread to "discuss" (read: complain about) the new Eldar.
Because the discussion went to a place where my opinion was relevant. I've hardly started the off topicness. Sometimes threads wander a bit. Why are you posting OT stuff now?
Anyway, it was about the Eldar dex, and the effect it looks like it will have on the game, so it wasn't really off topic.
That is such a cliche reply . I never said you aren't allowed to post, I asked why. If those are the things you want why are you specifically bothering to post OT stuff in a rumor thread? There is already another thread to "discuss" (read: complain about) the new Eldar.
And YOU are posting OT stuff in this thread by arguing with him. Take your arguing over to the other thread, both of you are filling up this thread for people that actually want to discuss the rumours and models.
I for one am quite excited to get a small allied force of Windriders, maybe that Windrider Host, for my Astra Militarum. I think they will complement them quite well, without going over board with the cheese. The models look great! Especially the Farseer/Warlock kit. Can't wait to get my hands on them and paint them up
That is such a cliche reply . I never said you aren't allowed to post, I asked why. If those are the things you want why are you specifically bothering to post OT stuff in a rumor thread? There is already another thread to "discuss" (read: complain about) the new Eldar.
And YOU are posting OT stuff in this thread by arguing with him. Take your arguing over to the other thread, both of you are filling up this thread for people that actually want to discuss the rumours and models.
I for one am quite excited to get a small allied force of Windriders, maybe that Windrider Host, for my Astra Militarum. I think they will complement them quite well, without going over board with the cheese. The models look great! Especially the Farseer/Warlock kit. Can't wait to get my hands on them and paint them up
The same. Jetbikes would help us get some mobility on the board.
ImAGeek wrote: Hopefully they've done something finally for Banshees.
The easy solution is NOT to make Serpents assault vehicle, but to change the Acrobat rule that Banshees already have to allow them to assault after disembarking, and of course to make the Banshee mask count as grenades in the same way Flipbelts work for Harlies
Am I the only one who noticed that in the eldar warhost formations it says 'falcons' and 'prisms' which heavily implies that eldar player can now take 1-3 of each per heavy support slot?
Looking like a very big buff for eldar, because those tanks are going down in price if they are intending you to slot 3 into each heavy support option!!
DarkLink wrote: You kidding? Wraithknights are worth like 300pts as is, and adding str d and making them gargantuan creatures is a massive buff. They'd probably easily be worth 500pts.
So a knight is worth the same as a baneblade?
A Wraithknight is worth 240 with weapons because that it what the current codex says. Losing all weapons to gain GMC status is what i was saying and the weapons be a pointed upgrade
Dont be silly, if the WK get a buff, it just mean the model should cost more to buy (and Im not talking points here). They need to balance the Wraithknight more with Baneblades and other super heavies by prize increase. Thats the Nottingham Equilibrium.
pretre wrote: Nah, that was commented on previously.
Fair enough, these eldar topics are on fire and it's hard to keep up with the posts. 5++ on all eldar vehicles is all but assured, so that's some serious tank support they have going on now. I think the codex will be internally balanced, much like necrons are, which means externally they are going to be a little bit tougher than the orks, but only slightly.
Well really at this point there is almost no point in leaving new posts. Everything from the WD has leaked so until we get better pictures of all the pages, or we get codex leaks nothing new can really be added.
On that note does anyone know the contents of the Farseer edition of the codex? No one has posted the whole page yet but looking at the leaked picture of it it almost looks like it only comes with the psychic powers and not the objective cards
BeeCee wrote: All these people planning on refusing to play against Eldar now- what happened to communicating with people?
Said Eldar player has a list that completely outmatches you, what's the harm in just saying "your list outclasses mine by quite a bit, do you mind toning your list down?"
I know not everyone plays with a tourney list all the time and a little communication can go a long ways.
personally I don't get to play 40k enough that i refuse games and losing at toy soldiers is still better than being at work or something like that.
Play on Eldar players.
It's about sending a message to GW. If we the community have to hurt the Eldar players themselves to get that message through to them then so be it. It's often only the most extreme actions that get anyone noticed these days. It's not like I want to do this. They could have released a reasonable balanced book with Eldar in it and we could all be on roughly equal footing. Instead they release a huge abomination of a codex that is so far superior in every aspect. If we're all being polite and bending over for GW to take this latest BS then the NOTHING will get done ever. It took the 40k community being up in arms over GK and Tau Fish of Fury to get them to fix those asap. This is how we need to stick together to show GW. If any Eldar players feel actual remorse for us plebeians who bought anything except Eldar because we want to have a diverse interesting play experience for anyone else. Then you can shelve your Eldar and refuse to play.
KICK UP A gak STORM! Everyone on every side of the fence. It's the only way we'll get their attention at this point. Hell even tournaments are going to have to crack down on this new Eldar Codex and heavily modify it and restrict it. I would love if they outright banned it, but I see that as unlikely.
BeeCee wrote: All these people planning on refusing to play against Eldar now- what happened to communicating with people?
Said Eldar player has a list that completely outmatches you, what's the harm in just saying "your list outclasses mine by quite a bit, do you mind toning your list down?"
I know not everyone plays with a tourney list all the time and a little communication can go a long ways.
personally I don't get to play 40k enough that i refuse games and losing at toy soldiers is still better than being at work or something like that.
Play on Eldar players.
It's about sending a message to GW. If we the community have to hurt the Eldar players themselves to get that message through to them then so be it. It's often only the most extreme actions that get anyone noticed these days. It's not like I want to do this. They could have released a reasonable balanced book with Eldar in it and we could all be on roughly equal footing. Instead they release a huge abomination of a codex that is so far superior in every aspect. If we're all being polite and bending over for GW to take this latest BS then the NOTHING will get done ever. It took the 40k community being up in arms over GK and Tau Fish of Fury to get them to fix those asap. This is how we need to stick together to show GW. If any Eldar players feel actual remorse for us plebeians who bought anything except Eldar because we want to have a diverse interesting play experience for anyone else. Then you can shelve your Eldar and refuse to play.
KICK UP A gak STORM! Everyone on every side of the fence. It's the only way we'll get their attention at this point. Hell even tournaments are going to have to crack down on this new Eldar Codex and heavily modify it and restrict it. I would love if they outright banned it, but I see that as unlikely.
Or, and it maybe heresy to say this, but perhaps we wait till the book comes out and then decide whether or not its worth rising up in a massed mob. Or go crazy now whichever works for you all.
BeeCee wrote: All these people planning on refusing to play against Eldar now- what happened to communicating with people?
Said Eldar player has a list that completely outmatches you, what's the harm in just saying "your list outclasses mine by quite a bit, do you mind toning your list down?"
I know not everyone plays with a tourney list all the time and a little communication can go a long ways.
personally I don't get to play 40k enough that i refuse games and losing at toy soldiers is still better than being at work or something like that.
Play on Eldar players.
It's about sending a message to GW. If we the community have to hurt the Eldar players themselves to get that message through to them then so be it. It's often only the most extreme actions that get anyone noticed these days. It's not like I want to do this. They could have released a reasonable balanced book with Eldar in it and we could all be on roughly equal footing. Instead they release a huge abomination of a codex that is so far superior in every aspect. If we're all being polite and bending over for GW to take this latest BS then the NOTHING will get done ever. It took the 40k community being up in arms over GK and Tau Fish of Fury to get them to fix those asap. This is how we need to stick together to show GW. If any Eldar players feel actual remorse for us plebeians who bought anything except Eldar because we want to have a diverse interesting play experience for anyone else. Then you can shelve your Eldar and refuse to play.
KICK UP A gak STORM! Everyone on every side of the fence. It's the only way we'll get their attention at this point. Hell even tournaments are going to have to crack down on this new Eldar Codex and heavily modify it and restrict it. I would love if they outright banned it, but I see that as unlikely.
Or, and it maybe heresy to say this, but perhaps we wait till the book comes out and then decide whether or not its worth rising up in a massed mob. Or go crazy now whichever works for you all.
Because the rules have already been leaked and they're terrible.
BeeCee wrote: All these people planning on refusing to play against Eldar now- what happened to communicating with people?
Said Eldar player has a list that completely outmatches you, what's the harm in just saying "your list outclasses mine by quite a bit, do you mind toning your list down?"
I know not everyone plays with a tourney list all the time and a little communication can go a long ways.
personally I don't get to play 40k enough that i refuse games and losing at toy soldiers is still better than being at work or something like that.
Play on Eldar players.
It's about sending a message to GW. If we the community have to hurt the Eldar players themselves to get that message through to them then so be it. It's often only the most extreme actions that get anyone noticed these days. It's not like I want to do this. They could have released a reasonable balanced book with Eldar in it and we could all be on roughly equal footing. Instead they release a huge abomination of a codex that is so far superior in every aspect. If we're all being polite and bending over for GW to take this latest BS then the NOTHING will get done ever. It took the 40k community being up in arms over GK and Tau Fish of Fury to get them to fix those asap. This is how we need to stick together to show GW. If any Eldar players feel actual remorse for us plebeians who bought anything except Eldar because we want to have a diverse interesting play experience for anyone else. Then you can shelve your Eldar and refuse to play.
KICK UP A gak STORM! Everyone on every side of the fence. It's the only way we'll get their attention at this point. Hell even tournaments are going to have to crack down on this new Eldar Codex and heavily modify it and restrict it. I would love if they outright banned it, but I see that as unlikely.
Or, and it maybe heresy to say this, but perhaps we wait till the book comes out and then decide whether or not its worth rising up in a massed mob. Or go crazy now whichever works for you all.
I'm just stoking the embers and fires. No need for the gasoline or rope yet.
MWHistorian wrote: Because the rules have already been leaked and they're terrible.
Oh I seemed to have missed this then. All I saw was a sidenote saying these units got D, no mention at all on points values, stats, or even how they get D. Honestly can you all say with certainty that this is a broken codex? That if it were you need X amount of shots to make it strength D its utterly broken? (I am imagining the better guns would get it easier so the wraithknights two would equal one shot, ten wraithguard can like for a shot, all the vauls for a shot, etc).
MWHistorian wrote: Because the rules have already been leaked and they're terrible.
Oh I seemed to have missed this then. All I saw was a sidenote saying these units got D, no mention at all on points values, stats, or even how they get D. Honestly can you all say with certainty that this is a broken codex? That if it were you need X amount of shots to make it strength D its utterly broken? (I am imagining the better guns would get it easier so the wraithknights two would equal one shot, ten wraithguard can like for a shot, all the vauls for a shot, etc).
Here you go.
4 x 270 points for a 10 man jetbike squad with 40 shots each at str 6, with 3+ jink, and eldar jetbike movement WITH ObSec.
I hope there is more to it. I hope the panic is unfounded. But all signs point to Herp-A-Derp.
@kronk -- if you make them jink, they're no longer much of a threat. And they are not durable, so hit them with something in the approach, and the number of shots drops dramatically.
270 points is actually a lot for something that can't take a hit. Deep strike with templates, long range fire, T1 charge, lots of things can hurt expensive soft targets.
Talys wrote: @kronk -- if you make them jink, they're no longer much of a threat. And they are not durable, so hit them with something in the approach, and the number of shots drops dramatically.
270 points is actually a lot for something that can't take a hit. Deep strike with templates, long range fire, T1 charge, lots of things can hurt expensive soft targets.
Problem is some armies can reliably pull this off. In most cases you won't even need to jink because you already have a 3+ which you can usually buff with powers to 2+. And the weapon range is 48 inches with a jump backwards.
What are Orks supposed to do against this? Eldar moves into 36 inches, fires its scatter lasers, then assault moves backwards. A 10 SL squad, should kill 22 regular boys a turn. I could also murder any trucks that are in game as well. With nids, same deal just pop in, average 6 wounds a turn on T6 with a 3+, wipe out something like a Tervigon and then leave. Most nid weapons except biovores are not longer range than 24 inches.
Even the races that do have counters are going to be forced to mono build. How much of the competitive meta is determined by WS spam right now? This is looking to do the same thing and just force people to develop builds that are forced to deal with one unit type.
Edit: Bladestorm unchanged. Roll of 6 wounds automatically, regardless of toughness resolved at AP2. I don't see how people can think 4 shot scatter later is better than 3 shot shuriken cannon with pseudorending on a unit that can haul ass, but anyhow.
Talys wrote: @netTCM range is 36", by the way, if you get scatter laser. Everything else is 24" or lower.
Personally, I think the 24" Shuriken Cannon is more of a threat at 24" than the scatter laser is at 36" because of bladestorm (and JSJ).
I am implying effective range is 48 because 12 inch move then 36 inch shot. The cannon is pretty bad, but the one thing with spamming that guy is while they will kill a unit it is more likely that you will get a shot back with another unit because average JSJ should be around 6 inches and most armies have at least a 24 inch range.
Talys wrote: @netTCM range is 36", by the way, if you get scatter laser. Everything else is 24" or lower.
Personally, I think the 24" Shuriken Cannon is more of a threat at 24" than the scatter laser is at 36" because of bladestorm (and JSJ).
I am implying effective range is 48 because 12 inch move then 36 inch shot. The cannon is pretty bad, but the one thing with spamming that guy is while they will kill a unit it is more likely that you will get a shot back with another unit because average JSJ should be around 6 inches and most armies have at least a 24 inch range.
Well, the great thing about killing a unit is that it doesn't get to shoot back
That's kind of a strange way of figuring range, because even by your logic, the other army will be able to shoot 24" + their move. That's uh.. unless they have weapons that shoot > 24"
Anyways, I DO get the whole thing. Eldar Jetbikes shouldn't get to have special weapons on every unit, because nobody else does (on their bikes). I'm not sure it's as much doom and gloom as everyone is putting out to be, because it increases a 17 point unit to 27 points, and that's really expensive if it can't take a hit. In the same way that you don't want every terminator to have a power fist, I think ideally, you don't want every jetbike to have a scatter laser. So, at most, you'd want 2 units out of 3 with scatter lasers, so you wouldn't be flushing down 27 points every time someone looked at you sideways.
Talys wrote: @kronk -- if you make them jink, they're no longer much of a threat. And they are not durable, so hit them with something in the approach, and the number of shots drops dramatically.
270 points is actually a lot for something that can't take a hit. Deep strike with templates, long range fire, T1 charge, lots of things can hurt expensive soft targets.
Trouble is they out range a lot of guns, with 48" threat range and then jsj to back up out of range of retaliation.
Talys wrote: @netTCM range is 36", by the way, if you get scatter laser. Everything else is 24" or lower.
Personally, I think the 24" Shuriken Cannon is more of a threat at 24" than the scatter laser is at 36" because of bladestorm (and JSJ).
I am implying effective range is 48 because 12 inch move then 36 inch shot. The cannon is pretty bad, but the one thing with spamming that guy is while they will kill a unit it is more likely that you will get a shot back with another unit because average JSJ should be around 6 inches and most armies have at least a 24 inch range.
Well, the great thing about killing a unit is that it doesn't get to shoot back
That's kind of a strange way of figuring range, because even by your logic, the other army will be able to shoot 24" + their move. That's uh.. unless they have weapons that shoot > 24"
Anyways, I DO get the whole thing. Eldar Jetbikes shouldn't get to have special weapons on every unit, because nobody else does (on their bikes). I'm not sure it's as much doom and gloom as everyone is putting out to be, because it increases a 17 point unit to 27 points, and that's really expensive if it can't take a hit. In the same way that you don't want every terminator to have a power fist, I think ideally, you don't want every jetbike to have a scatter laser. So, at most, you'd want 2 units out of 3 with scatter lasers, so you wouldn't be flushing down 27 points every time someone looked at you sideways.
You misread my post. I was saying even though they will kill a unit with the cannons I could have a DIFFERENT unit still in range of them to do some damage.
I play IG and in most cases I think I will be okay after this change because I have range. Others are not so lucky. And is lame because as I said a few posts up they are significantly better than other similar units like SM bikes, DE jetbikes, or Ork Bikes. And they are cheap than Orks and SM and only one point more than the DE one. The pricing for a regular bike doesn't make sense at all.
Unfortunately, we also haven't see what bonuses they are going to get when placed in the new formation chart as well. It actually has the potential to be much worse. And then you add in psy powers. Invisible bikes don't need to jink pretty much ever.
BeeCee wrote: All these people planning on refusing to play against Eldar now- what happened to communicating with people?
Said Eldar player has a list that completely outmatches you, what's the harm in just saying "your list outclasses mine by quite a bit, do you mind toning your list down?"
This doesn't solve the problem. Instead of tabling my Orks on turn 2, the Eldar player will tone down their list to only table me on turn 4.
How does that give me a fair shot at winning the game?
Personally, I think the 24" Shuriken Cannon is more of a threat at 24" than the scatter laser is at 36" because of bladestorm (and JSJ).
The cannons are of course better vs 2+ saves. They pretty much break even vs 3+ saves. Scatter is better vs 4+ and 6+, cannon is better vs 5+
Once cover gets involved though the scatter laser pulls ahead. Also, 12 inch greater range is a huge advantage. They are also much better vs light/medium vehicles.
As you yourself said, the bikes themselves aren't all that durable, and that 36 range really does help keep them out of harms way with JSJ.
I don't see how people can think 4 shot scatter later is better than 3 shot shuriken cannon with pseudorending on a unit that can haul ass
Well now hopefully you do.
They both have merits of course, but I see the scatter laser being the preferred option to spam.
ImAGeek wrote: Hopefully they've done something finally for Banshees.
The easy solution is NOT to make Serpents assault vehicle, but to change the Acrobat rule that Banshees already have to allow them to assault after disembarking, and of course to make the Banshee mask count as grenades in the same way Flipbelts work for Harlies
You misread my post. I was saying even though they will kill a unit with the cannons I could have a DIFFERENT unit still in range of them to do some damage.
I play IG and in most cases I think I will be okay after this change because I have range. Others are not so lucky. And is lame because as I said a few posts up they are significantly better than other similar units like SM bikes, DE jetbikes, or Ork Bikes. And they are cheap than Orks and SM and only one point more than the DE one. The pricing for a regular bike doesn't make sense at all.
Unfortunately, we also haven't see what bonuses they are going to get when placed in the new formation chart as well. It actually has the potential to be much worse. And then you add in psy powers. Invisible bikes don't need to jink pretty much ever.
Ahh okay. I get it
Keep in mind, DE jetbikes all get FNP after the first round with progressive buffs as the game goes on, plus combat drugs, which aren't bad. Base unit has rapid fire too, though you have to get pretty close to benefit from it.
I think the new Eldar jetbikes are the best bikes in the game, based on the WD that I have on hand. Of course, GW wants to sell the shiny new jetbike models. I am not convinced they are game-breaking, nor the faction, though, just as I am not sure any of the weapons going Destroyer is game breaking -- the old Distort weapons were already very powerful, and if the units get more expensive, Destroyer on distortion weapons isn't the end of the world.
In most editions of 40k, Eldar have always been a really solid choice. However, for a long time -- and nothing is changing -- they have had really old, crappy models, which is why I don't play them Being stuck with old guardian and fire dragon models is a nerf unto itself.
arinnoor wrote: Or, and it maybe heresy to say this, but perhaps we wait till the book comes out and then decide whether or not its worth rising up in a massed mob. Or go crazy now whichever works for you all.
Bored now. See you guys when the codex drops and we know more than just how 1 unit changed in one line of their entry and an unexplained comment about D weapons
I have to admit, what has leaked seems gawd-awful OP, but as others have stated,we don't know the whole story yet. There are so many potential caveats that could be inserted into the unit and wargear rules that balance things out.
For example, what if Wraithcannons (and heavy WC and D-cannons) have a modified "Gets Hot" style rule that on a roll to hit of 1, a Vortex blast is placed over the model? It would fit the fluff of distort weapons being incredibly dangerous to handle. That, coupled with a stiff price increase suddenly makes those wraith units less desirable and have a decent trade off in the risk vs reward category.
Have we received confirmation that windriders are still troops? I know the stats and cost haven't changed, but losing objective secured makes them less useful at grabbing objectives (one of their best attributes in the previous codex).
It certainly looks bad, but who knows, maybe GW will shock the world and not put out another broken codex.
I would definitely take the lasers over the shuriken cannons (at least if I was trying to be TFG eldar guy.)
36" range over 24" is a vey nice asset, an extra shot each is also really good. The bikes would absolutely have a bit of psychic support, so misfortune becomes a thing.
People keep saying that they're fragile. O.o since when?
Not many builds reach completely across the table and slap down 40 marines with optional jink on turn 1, and if you don't, you've probably lost. Drop pods might do some damage...until they just leave you in the dust on their next turn. And being bikes, you probably aren't hitting more than 3 on a template. There is literally no way you will ever assault them, unless the eldar player feels bad for you and wants to let you. I would always run them as obsec as well. Ld 8 is hardly bad. Still means they're passing more than failing. And big units probably either have a warlock or Farseer for higher ld, plus psychic shenanigans.
The list I would be looking at just from bike rumors alone is:
4 units of 5 scatbikes each, 2 units of 10 with warlocks. 2 jetseers to join one to each big unit with ML3 divination most likely. And then toss in the antitank and call it a day. If the codex just has overcosted anti-tank, it's pretty easy to take a FT detachment of BA for some melta drop squads on the cheap.
What could actually change that makes them more reasonable though? The jet bikes alone are ridiculous and we've already seen that that's not a mistake, so 'waiting for the whole picture' isn't going to fix that.
ImAGeek wrote: What could actually change that makes them more reasonable though? The jet bikes alone are ridiculous and we've already seen that that's not a mistake, so 'waiting for the whole picture' isn't going to fix that.
'Dying Race' - The Eldar are too few to waste their lives in pointless conflicts. If 25% of the Eldar force is destroyed or fleeing at the end of a game turn, the Eldar player removes all remaining models from the table.
Also, misprint/errata in the WD for the jetbike entry and/or the D is actually not what we think it is.
What if the regular Wraith-cannons only had AP3, or the D-scythes** were only AP5?
** and lets not kid ourselves, "D"-scythes WILL be strD is the distort rule is indeed replaced.
------------------
Clearly it would still be bad news for vehicles, but against non-vehicle models it would essentially be worse/the same as now
TheDraconicLord wrote: Right, it's somewhat impossible to follow along this thread considering how fast it's moving but I'm curious:
Has it been confirmed? Is the 160 S6 shots a thing? Was the codex already leaked?
It has been confirmed via this weeks WD. Since ANY bike can buy a Scatter laser, you could have a 10-man unit for 270pts that puts out 40 S6 shots. Field 4 units like that for 1080pts to get 160 shots.
This is, however, a "pay-to-win" scenario. Most players will probably field units of 5, with maybe 1 unit at 8-10 bikes. I am personally planning to have at least 2 bikes per unit with no upgrade to keep the unit cheaper and have affordable casualties
Galef wrote: Is D really that bad if it didn't have AP2/1?
What if the regular Wraith-cannons only had AP3, or the D-scythes** were only AP5?
** and lets not kid ourselves, "D"-scythes WILL be strD is the distort rule is indeed replaced.
------------------
Clearly it would still be bad news for vehicles, but against non-vehicle models it would essentially be worse/the same as now
The reason why D is bad is because a roll of a 6 would instakill absolutely ANYTHING up to an Imperial Knight, and has the potential to one-shot even stompas.
I guess it wouldn't be so bad if Eldar weren't so otherwise good at annihilating infantry. Their basic troops either rend (or spam strength 6 shots, as we see), and there's no point taking heavy armor against an opponent who can fling Strength D up to 36'' away, or drop strength D next to you via webway portal, or shoot strength D down at you from the skies.
I don't think the sky is falling it's just frustrating to see a faction that already has it all get even more toys, while Orks can't even rock a personal invuln save. If Ghazghkull had a Strength D klaw and gave every boy on the table a 5+ invuln on a waagh, and Vect still existed and his unit could show up at any point on your opponent's turn and immediately fire, sure.
TheDraconicLord wrote: Right, it's somewhat impossible to follow along this thread considering how fast it's moving but I'm curious:
Has it been confirmed? Is the 160 S6 shots a thing? Was the codex already leaked?
It has been confirmed via this weeks WD. Since ANY bike can buy a Scatter laser, you could have a 10-man unit for 270pts that puts out 40 S6 shots. Field 4 units like that for 1080pts to get 160 shots.
This is, however, a "pay-to-win" scenario. Most players will probably field units of 5, with maybe 1 unit at 8-10 bikes. I am personally planning to have at least 2 bikes per unit with no upgrade to keep the unit cheaper and have affordable casualties
I am Hoping that the eldar distortion weapons went back to wounding on a 2+ and glance on a 2-4, pen on a 5+.
All they would need to say is that the weapons count as strD, but do not roll on the chart.
I see why they did what they did with eldar and the D rule change, the eldar and Necron codecies have always had rules to counter one another as part of their fluff. They wanted the eldar to be able to shut down reanimation protocols, so gave them D weapons. They should have made the old distort rule remove from play on a to wound roll of 6.
It would have done what they wanted, and wouldn't anihilate every other army in he crossfire. I am thinking they gave them D strength weapons because it would allow eternal warrior space marines a chance to survive the shot. Sheer lack of understanding can be the only way they didn't see how bad an idea this was.
Oh well, back to waiting for the corsairs update...
I've been thinking: having a scatter on every bike isn't broken in and of itsef - it's the fact that 10 pts is criminaly cheap for the enormous boost in effectiveness. If scatters were say 20-25 pts, it'd be fine, really.
Kanluwen wrote: Scatter Lasers should be 30 points, minimum.
LOL! Really!? I am glad you don't write/balance army books...
Seriously people, Eldar as a whole are not OP-not currently and without the entire codex to review, it is impossible to say so about the future codex. Saying Eldar are OP is like saying "since some cats are fluffy therefore all cats are fluffy." In short, it is a logical fallacy taking what may be true of one small portion of something and applying it to the whole. At best, it can only be said a few aspects of the current Eldar codex are OP but it is not possible to say Eldar are OP as a whole...At least not possible to say it and be correct.
-Saying OH NOES, Eldar are even MOAR OP now than before/evar is an overreaction.
-Saying I will rage quit now is an overreaction.
-Saying I will never play as or against Eldar now is an overreaction.
Indeed, saying any of these things indicates either trolling or illogical thinking, both of which bring the hobby down.
So yeah, dead horse is sufficiently dead, get over how strong scatter lasers on bikes and D weapons galore appear to be, wait until the codex drops/we get more info and then react accordingly. This means, either have some sort of comp/understanding set up with potential fiends/players or hope/encourage TOs to do so just like how ITC format strives to make for a fair and fun playing field.
Personally, I don't think Scatter/Shiruken on bikes are that big of a deal and expect time to prove me right. As far as D weapons galore, that I am very apprehensive about but that may be ok in the end. It would be better if they just took out the "6" result from the Destroyer table entirely and made it so that it was just 1-2 nothing happens, 3-6 becomes the current 2-5 result.
mortetvie wrote: Personally, I don't think Scatter/Shiruken on bikes are that big of a deal and expect time to prove me right.
Nickel bet that you're wrong.
This guy would never admit he was wrong. Eldar could get Str D on every single one of their models for free and he would be here arguing "they aren't OP guys! Time will prove me right! Trust me!"
mortetvie wrote: Personally, I don't think Scatter/Shiruken on bikes are that big of a deal and expect time to prove me right.
Nickel bet that you're wrong.
You are on =P. Let it be officially noted that Petre and I have made a bet for a nickel that if Eldar bikes with all Scatter/Shiruken is a big deal, I will pay him one nickel while if it ends up not being a big deal, he will pay me a nickel. Big deal referring to being overpowered in practice and/or dominating the meta.
And Mr. Stone, I have been wrong and am willing to admit where I was wrong. quit trolling and espousing things you can't know are true. Indeed, your comment only proves you are either illiterate or didn't read my post above about D weapons.
mortetvie wrote: Personally, I don't think Scatter/Shiruken on bikes are that big of a deal and expect time to prove me right.
Nickel bet that you're wrong.
You are on =P. Let it be officially noted that Petre and I have made a bet for a nickel that if Eldar bikes with all Scatter/Shiruken is a big deal, I will pay him one nickel while if it ends up not being a big deal, he will pay me a nickel. Big deal referring to being overpowered in practice and/or dominating the meta.
So what is the criteria for 'being overpowered in practice and dominating the meta"? You clearly have a very different threshold for what you consider OP than the majority of people here. So how do you arbitrate what is and what isn't overpowered with your biased threshold? Gotta lay down some guidelines first...
Well every codex that has come out recently has been remarkably well balanced surprisingly even the Necrons though they are very very good. So I hope this ranged OMG everything has giant D all over the place is not true.
Have we any word on what rangers are like? I so badly want to field mine once without feeling like I'm just throwing points away.
mortetvie wrote: Personally, I don't think Scatter/Shiruken on bikes are that big of a deal and expect time to prove me right.
Nickel bet that you're wrong.
Yea, I find it annoying he keeps toiling on about others saying eldar are OP. Nobody is saying eldar are OP, what they are upset about is ludicrously under cost bikes with heavy weapons available on every model.
Imagine space marines having access to 10 pt heavy flamers or melta guns on every model in the unit.
It just creates for a unit that is WAY to efficient when compared to every other armies compulsories.
At any rate I expect time to make him embarrassed for white knighting poor game design because it's "his" army.
-First, you misquoted me, I said and/or which is a big distinction.
-Second of all, any dictionary definition of "overpowered" will suffice, as in it defeats many other things with superior strength, especially in relation to relative points values. Now I am not talking about equal points of jetbikes with scatter lasers versus equal points of Ork boyz or howling banshees but in a realistic game play setting.
-Third of all, by dominating the meta, I mean Jetbikes with max heavy weapons dominating/appearing in virtually every Eldar list much like how Serpents/Wraithknights currently do.
@Corsair:
First, to ignore that people have said Eldar are OP several times throughout this thread and attack me for addressing those comments is like Obama pretending Iran doesn't want to make nukes with their nuclear program... Yes, people have been saying all of the things I said above, those were literally direct quotes more or less from existing comments in this thread.
Second, it is nothing short of a personal attack to say I am just white knighting poor game design because Eldar are my army... Way to Ad Hominem sir!
Yes, I play Eldar, and have done so since 2nd. I have seen and experienced them at their highest and lowest and played with their strongest and weakest units/builds. I have also played with any and every other army GW has ever made (and actually either own or owned every army GW ever made except for the recent Skitarii). So to say I am just white knighting Eldar because I am an Eldar fanboy is wrong. My favorite army is actually Tyranids/Thousand Sons and Iyanden in that order but that is besides the point.
The point is, I maintain that in my experience, I don't think bikes with all heavy weapons will be that big of a deal and I expect time to prove me right. if I am wrong, I'll have no problem going oops I was wrong...
As far as poor game design, that remains to be seen.
mortetvie wrote: Personally, I don't think Scatter/Shiruken on bikes are that big of a deal and expect time to prove me right.
Nickel bet that you're wrong.
Loser has to listen to a Nickleback album, start to finish.
I think I'd pay a thousand nickels to never have to hear nickelback ever again ;p
Edit: and I'm with mortetvie on the jetbikes not being as big of a deal as you think. Im much more concerned about an entire army of STR D shooters.
I would actually be less concerned about all the D had jet bikes remained the same and were bumped to a 4+. They were criminal before at 17ppm, but Id live if they were the same.
Having a basic troop with a 48" threat range and 4 s6 shots invalidates way more then D. It sweeps elite units, horde, light to medium armor and MC's. There is a reason why people would field scatter laser war walkers, these out shoot those point for point while being more durable and faster all on an Obsec unit you'd need anyway. Most armies need a tax before they get to the cream.
Yes corsair, math says jetbikes with scatter lasers are unstoppable and nothing can win against them! No ship can withstand firepower of that magnitude! Game over, do not pass go!
Seriously, I'm not worried about it and I am not afraid to play against such an army with any of my standard builds.
mortetvie wrote: Yes corsair, math says jetbikes with scatter lasers are unstoppable and nothing can win against them! No ship can withstand firepower of that magnitude! Game over, do not pass go!
Seriously, I'm not worried about it and I am not afraid to play against such an army with any of my standard builds.
You really don't see an issue with 160 s6 shots for 1080 points, on models with a 48" threat range who can move after they shoot you to get out of range of retaliation? And then the fact they still have a chunk of points to spend on things to counter anything you bring to counter the Jetbikes?
mortetvie wrote: Yes corsair, math says jetbikes with scatter lasers are unstoppable and nothing can win against them! No ship can withstand firepower of that magnitude! Game over, do not pass go!
Seriously, I'm not worried about it and I am not afraid to play against such an army with any of my standard builds.
You really don't see an issue with 160 s6 shots for 1080 points, on models with a 48" threat range who can move after they shoot you to get out of range of retaliation? And then the fact they still have a chunk of points to spend on things to counter anything you bring to counter the Jetbikes?
In my experience, having that many shots is not the be all end. I've played lists where I had 9 Vypers and 9 War Walkers with more Vypers/War Walkers as allies and while all of that shooting is very strong, it can only go so far. I only bring up this example to say I know what that much firepower can do or not do.
It really comes down to how much terrain is on the game, what targets are available on either side, what shooting capabilities are on either side, how good the target priority is of either player and ultimately player skill.
Indeed, there are many armies and lists that would care less about that firepower listed above, so unless you are playing mathhammer in a vacuum or only play with infantry models that are T4 in a gunline, real life experience in tournament settings tells me this type of list will not be unstoppable.
mortetvie wrote:Yes corsair, math says jetbikes with scatter lasers are unstoppable and nothing can win against them! No ship can withstand firepower of that magnitude! Game over, do not pass go!
Seriously, I'm not worried about it and I am not afraid to play against such an army with any of my standard builds.
Well after a couple of rounds of shooting from this army you will be worried to face him again in the battlefield...
ImAGeek wrote:
mortetvie wrote: Yes corsair, math says jetbikes with scatter lasers are unstoppable and nothing can win against them! No ship can withstand firepower of that magnitude! Game over, do not pass go!
Seriously, I'm not worried about it and I am not afraid to play against such an army with any of my standard builds.
You really don't see an issue with 160 s6 shots for 1080 points, on models with a 48" threat range who can move after they shoot you to get out of range of retaliation? And then the fact they still have a chunk of points to spend on things to counter anything you bring to counter the Jetbikes?
Mate even half the amount of shots for half the amount of points combined with the mobility buffs and other units the eldar will field is a major problem. This units needs to have a limit of 1 scatter for 15 points for every 3 bikes to call it okish.
mortetvie wrote: Yes corsair, math says jetbikes with scatter lasers are unstoppable and nothing can win against them! No ship can withstand firepower of that magnitude! Game over, do not pass go!
Seriously, I'm not worried about it and I am not afraid to play against such an army with any of my standard builds.
You really don't see an issue with 160 s6 shots for 1080 points, on models with a 48" threat range who can move after they shoot you to get out of range of retaliation? And then the fact they still have a chunk of points to spend on things to counter anything you bring to counter the Jetbikes?
Mate even half the amount of shots for half the amount of points combined with the mobility buffs and other units the eldar will field is a major problem. This units needs to have a limit of 1 scatter for 15 points for every 3 bikes to call it okish.
And we haven't even seen any formation bonuses they're gonna get yet either
T4 bikes with jump shoot jump, 3+ Save, 4+ jink and 4 Str 6 shots, that auto wound on a 6 and are Ap2. That are troops...that can be taken in groups of 10,,, for 27 points
if people would just start playing with more structured terrain (instead of the usual blobs) then it would be nigh impossible for that many bikes to get these shots off effectively. I've never understood why most people just make almost zero effort to make a decent terrain system.
Capamaru wrote: This units needs to have a limit of 1 scatter for 15 points for every 3 bikes to call it okish.
So you're contention is that Scatter Lasers need to be both worse and more expensive than they currently are?
SL couldn't be taken on Jetbikes before, so it would be adding an option (better) for a reasonable amount of points at the same ratio as the current book.
Some people are saying this book will be way overpowered.
While others (not really in this thread) are saying that Eldar are gonna get nerfed.
I think that they'll probably be about the same.
What really has me worried is this whole formation thing. Is this going to be the basic way of organizing an eldar list? If so, I gotta go out and buy some stuff.
mortetvie wrote: Yes corsair, math says jetbikes with scatter lasers are unstoppable and nothing can win against them! No ship can withstand firepower of that magnitude! Game over, do not pass go!
Seriously, I'm not worried about it and I am not afraid to play against such an army with any of my standard builds.
You really don't see an issue with 160 s6 shots for 1080 points, on models with a 48" threat range who can move after they shoot you to get out of range of retaliation? And then the fact they still have a chunk of points to spend on things to counter anything you bring to counter the Jetbikes?
The problem with all the freak-out is that a lot of people forget that *practically* the unit isn't THAT much different from what it was before.
What have jetbikes gotten? The ability to add 2 more scatter lasers per 3 units at a cost of 10 points each. What have they lost? laser link. Nothing else has changed.
Before, you could field 6 jetbikes, and get 8 shots at 48 inch threat range, and 8 shots at 24 inch threat range with bladestorm. Total cost = 4x17 + 2x27 = 122 points
For 125 points, you can field 5 jetbikes, get 16 shots at 48 inch threat range, and 2 shots at 24 inch threat range with blade storm.
But realistically, do you just want 1 unit to be able to take a hit without losing 27 points? I don't think so. I think at most, the ratio will be 2 scatter lasers to 1 shuriken catapult.
Is it a buff? YES, because you get more options. But it's hardly game-breaking.
Likewise, the whole D-weapon thing.
Wraithguard had Distortion weapons before, and they were already super killy. On rolls of 6, you got instant death on creatures and penetrating hit on vehicles. Is Destroyer better? Yes, but dead is dead, and Wraithguard were just fine at leaving in their threat range dead. So, if the price (points) goes up, it's not a buff at all. Same with Wraithknight: I would rather have Destroyer as an option, than the base price of WK rising. One of the great things with Wraithknight was that it was 240 points base, allowing you to have more army flexibility. If it gets raised to the 400 level (which I suspect will happen), in 1850 games, you'll be unlikely to see more than 1-2.
T4 bikes with jump shoot jump, 3+ Save, 4+ jink and 4 Str 6 shots, that auto wound on a 6 and are Ap2. That are troops...that can be taken in groups of 10,,, for 27 points
Wraithguard and Wraithknights with D weapons...
but...
but...
but...
We don't know the whole story.
Yes we do, we know exactly what I just posted.
GW has lost their damn minds.
I only started 40k last year and I'm already sick of it. That can't be good for any business hoping to grow.
Q0rbin wrote: Of course I know that in tournaments but I mean a local play. And in tournamnets I have played you have been banned for fielding such an army and autolose.
So then what is the point of having a tournament? I thought we were past elementary school gym class rules where the scoreboard is turned off and we play for "fun". If you want to play for fun, go for it. The point of a tournament is to see who makes the best list and is the best general. I'm not sure how that's possible when you're banning people for bringing lists that are "too good."
Wow... So hardcore! I bet you have a rage boner the whole time you play man dollies until your opponent quits! takes tons of effort and skill finding the best of the best when the decks loaded doesn't it?
It's like bragging that you raced a marathon distance faster then you opponents except they ran and you drove your car. Sounds EXCITING!
Actually, I live in a magical place where my opponents know how to build a decent list. We all play this INHERENTLY COMPETITIVE game with the intention of (gasp!) WINNING. I don't remove 1 spark plug when I take my car to the track just because it might be faster than my opponent's cars. I don't shoot IDPA with both eyes closed just because I might have more training or a more accurate weapon than the guy standing next to me. Why would I handicap my list? I think a lot of people must be confusing this game with D&D. There is a 300 page rulebook with the sole purpose of telling you how to determine who wins the game. I missed the memo where it became a crime to build lists with that in mind. Forge the narrative is a poor excuse for writing unbalanced and unclear rules. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want to buy that hook, line and sinker and make yourself feel better by belittling anyone who has the nerve to actually try to win a game instead of just shoving your man dollies around the table while making "pew pew" noises, that's on you.
Turalon wrote: While others (not really in this thread) are saying that Eldar are gonna get nerfed.
I think that they'll probably be about the same.
What really has me worried is this whole formation thing. Is this going to be the basic way of organizing an eldar list? If so, I gotta go out and buy some stuff.
I think the Eldar will get the Necron treatment: some things will get nerfed some; other things will more than compensate in buffs. Most games favor elvish type stuff and the orcs get the short end of the stick. It will probably encourage people to play a different way and buy more models that they didn't have before.
To my earlier point though, it's not like Eldar Jetbikes weren't totally awesome before And also -- Dark Eldar and Harlequin jetbikes are also really quite good. I do not understand the justification for making it so that every unit can be upgraded to a special weapon, because that's not a common thing for low-price troops.
mortetvie wrote: Yes corsair, math says jetbikes with scatter lasers are unstoppable and nothing can win against them! No ship can withstand firepower of that magnitude! Game over, do not pass go!
Seriously, I'm not worried about it and I am not afraid to play against such an army with any of my standard builds.
You really don't see an issue with 160 s6 shots for 1080 points, on models with a 48" threat range who can move after they shoot you to get out of range of retaliation? And then the fact they still have a chunk of points to spend on things to counter anything you bring to counter the Jetbikes?
The problem with all the freak-out is that a lot of people forget that *practically* the unit isn't THAT much different from what it was before.
What have jetbikes gotten? The ability to add 2 more scatter lasers per 3 units at a cost of 10 points each. What have they lost? laser link. Nothing else has changed.
Before, you could field 6 jetbikes, and get 8 shots at 48 inch threat range, and 8 shots at 24 inch threat range with bladestorm. Total cost = 4x17 + 2x27 = 122 points
For 125 points, you can field 5 jetbikes, get 16 shots at 48 inch threat range, and 2 shots at 24 inch threat range with blade storm.
But realistically, do you just want 1 unit to be able to take a hit without losing 27 points? I don't think so. I think at most, the ratio will be 2 scatter lasers to 1 shuriken catapult.
Is it a buff? YES, because you get more options. But it's hardly game-breaking.
Likewise, the whole D-weapon thing.
Wraithguard had Distortion weapons before, and they were already super killy. On rolls of 6, you got instant death on creatures and penetrating hit on vehicles. Is Destroyer better? Yes, but dead is dead, and Wraithguard were just fine at leaving in their threat range dead. So, if the price (points) goes up, it's not a buff at all. Same with Wraithknight: I would rather have Destroyer as an option, than the base price of WK rising. One of the great things with Wraithknight was that it was 240 points base, allowing you to have more army flexibility. If it gets raised to the 400 level (which I suspect will happen), in 1850 games, you'll be unlikely to see more than 1-2.
Well exactly, they didn't even need a buff. That's why it's so ridiculous, that's part of the 'freak out' as you put it. They were pretty damn good as it was, so even the 'slight' buffs they've got has just made them ridiculous.
Turalon wrote: It'll be interesting to see what happens.
Some people are saying this book will be way overpowered.
While others (not really in this thread) are saying that Eldar are gonna get nerfed.
I think that they'll probably be about the same.
What really has me worried is this whole formation thing. Is this going to be the basic way of organizing an eldar list? If so, I gotta go out and buy some stuff.
You will always be able to use a CAD, just like currently. Their special detachment is just an OPTIONAL way to field a Battle-Forged list that also gives to bonuses.
I am personally very much in favor of this kind of organization as it forces you to add "fluffy", but clearly tax, units in order to get the bonuses.
I only started 40k last year and I'm already sick of it. That can't be good for any business hoping to grow.
Nerf Nuke needed. Eldar need harsh restrictions.
Ya know? Based on this and some other posts I have seen from you on other forums, you probably should just quit 40k. This obviously isn't the game for you.
Edit: Also I haven't really been excited for FF15 so far and haven't watched many videos of it, but holy crap that was awesome! Also, that is basically what Eldar D weapons are supposed to do
T4 bikes with jump shoot jump, 3+ Save, 4+ jink and 4 Str 6 shots, that auto wound on a 6 and are Ap2. That are troops...that can be taken in groups of 10,,, for 27 points
Those are pretty bad facts. They do NOT auto wound on 6. The are AP 6 not AP 2.
You're turning the scatter laser into a scatter shuriken laser cannon.
You also have no idea how much Wraithguard and Wraithknights are going to cost, with their shiny new upgraded weapons. And, how many of your units were hit with the old Wraithguard, and walked away to talk about it?
What is the big deal with jetbikes all getting a heavy weapon? Harlequin bikes have a shuriken cannon base, with an invul save and a mean CC option, with 2 wounds.
People called it the worst unit in the codex. People are losing their minds here.
Want to nullify 106(or is it 160) str 6 shots? Bring a land raider and laugh the whole game away.
Swabby wrote: What is the big deal with jetbikes all getting a heavy weapon? Harlequin bikes have a shuriken cannon base, with an invul save and a mean CC option, with 2 wounds.
People called it the worst unit in the codex. People are losing their minds here.
Want to nullify 106(or is it 160) str 6 shots? Bring a land raider and laugh the while game away.
How many points are those Harlie bikes? Are they obsec?
Swabby wrote: What is the big deal with jetbikes all getting a heavy weapon? Harlequin bikes have a shuriken cannon base, with an invul save and a mean CC option, with 2 wounds.
People called it the worst unit in the codex. People are losing their minds here.
Want to nullify 106(or is it 160) str 6 shots? Bring a land raider and laugh the while game away.
160. Plus the Eldar player has enough points left for probably a unit or two of Fire Dragons in WS to take out your land raider.
Swabby wrote: What is the big deal with jetbikes all getting a heavy weapon? Harlequin bikes have a shuriken cannon base, with an invul save and a mean CC option, with 2 wounds.
People called it the worst unit in the codex. People are losing their minds here.
Want to nullify 106(or is it 160) str 6 shots? Bring a land raider and laugh the while game away.
They have a 4+ save and cost almost 2x as many points per model. There is really no comparison.
Swabby wrote: What is the big deal with jetbikes all getting a heavy weapon? Harlequin bikes have a shuriken cannon base, with an invul save and a mean CC option, with 2 wounds.
People called it the worst unit in the codex. People are losing their minds here.
Want to nullify 106(or is it 160) str 6 shots? Bring a land raider and laugh the while game away.
The main idea behind this is that 160 str 6 shots are amazing against infantry of any sort while the eldar are more than famous about their variety of anti tank options. So you might very well guess where the rest of the points will be spend and how long the land raider will live to tell the tale.
Swabby wrote: What is the big deal with jetbikes all getting a heavy weapon? Harlequin bikes have a shuriken cannon base, with an invul save and a mean CC option, with 2 wounds.
People called it the worst unit in the codex. People are losing their minds here.
Want to nullify 106(or is it 160) str 6 shots? Bring a land raider and laugh the while game away.
The issue is that getting those 160 str 6 shots only costs 1080pts, leaving plenty of points for a WraithKnight and Wraithguard to ERASE those AV13+ vehicles.
Even so, I would be VERY surprised to see someone actual field THAT many jetbikes
EDIT: Dang that post stirred up a bunch of responses!
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pretre wrote: How many points are those Harlie bikes? Are they obsec?
Entirely different conversation than the one that people are freaking out about. There is precedent for eldar bikes all having heavy weapons. The harly bikes come with quite a few frills for the extra points and are multiple wound models.
Swabby wrote: What is the big deal with jetbikes all getting a heavy weapon? Harlequin bikes have a shuriken cannon base, with an invul save and a mean CC option, with 2 wounds.
People called it the worst unit in the codex. People are losing their minds here.
Want to nullify 106(or is it 160) str 6 shots? Bring a land raider and laugh the while game away.
The issue is that getting those 160 str 6 shots only costs 1080pts, leaving plenty of points for a WraithKnight and Wraithguard to ERASE those AV13+ vehicles.
Even so, I would be VERY surprised to see someone actual field THAT many jetbikes
Well they would cost a hefty amount of money but you can very well use old models and people have large amounts of them since they are around like forever... I suspect the price of scatter laser bits on ebay will go sky high after the codex release
T4 bikes with jump shoot jump, 3+ Save, 4+ jink and 4 Str 6 shots, that auto wound on a 6 and are Ap2. That are troops...that can be taken in groups of 10,,, for 27 points
Those are pretty bad facts. They do NOT auto wound on 6. The are AP 6 not AP 2.
You're turning the scatter laser into a scatter shuriken laser cannon.
You also have no idea how much Wraithguard and Wraithknights are going to cost, with their shiny new upgraded weapons. And, how many of your units were hit with the old Wraithguard, and walked away to talk about it?
Thank you! I was going to post the same thing, buy decided to see if someone else would call them on it. In a honesty, the only thing overpowered about the jetbikes is the 3+ save. They will continue being 4+ in my games. Wish GW would just hire some mathematicians all ready. Most RPG companies have in the past couple years, and the games have become significantly better balanced as a result.
Toofast wrote: Actually, I live in a magical place where my opponents know how to build a decent list. We all play this INHERENTLY COMPETITIVE game with the intention of (gasp!) WINNING. I don't remove 1 spark plug when I take my car to the track just because it might be faster than my opponent's cars. I don't shoot IDPA with both eyes closed just because I might have more training or a more accurate weapon than the guy standing next to me. Why would I handicap my list? I think a lot of people must be confusing this game with D&D. There is a 300 page rulebook with the sole purpose of telling you how to determine who wins the game. I missed the memo where it became a crime to build lists with that in mind. Forge the narrative is a poor excuse for writing unbalanced and unclear rules. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want to buy that hook, line and sinker and make yourself feel better by belittling anyone who has the nerve to actually try to win a game instead of just shoving your man dollies around the table while making "pew pew" noises, that's on you.
I'd just like to add that generally, I have fun at tournaments.
When the game is grievously unbalanced, that's where the stigma gets attached to "trying too hard" to win. It's only because the rules are busted and allow for hideously funless and one-sided games, that social pressure has to be used, to try and get the sort of games that balanced rules should be producing.
Swabby wrote: What is the big deal with jetbikes all getting a heavy weapon? Harlequin bikes have a shuriken cannon base, with an invul save and a mean CC option, with 2 wounds.
People called it the worst unit in the codex. People are losing their minds here.
Want to nullify 106(or is it 160) str 6 shots? Bring a land raider and laugh the while game away.
I plan on running 6x5 bike squads. That leaves me with 1040 points of stuff to nuke your land raiders. Even with a jetseer and a couple warlocks on bikes, I have 750 points to spend on D weapons and melta. Also, all my D weapons and melta are going to be more maneuverable than your land raiders. I see a land raider lasting 2 turns max against D weapons and melta. Fragon exarch with firepike says "hello!"
pretre wrote: How many points are those Harlie bikes? Are they obsec?
Entirely different conversation than the one that people are freaking out about. There is precedent for eldar bikes all having heavy weapons. The harly bikes come with quite a few frills for the extra points and are multiple wound models.
Nobody is freaking out about Eldar bikes all having heavy weapons.
They're freaking out about 17 point Jetbikes, which are Troops and in minimum squadrons of 3, able to upgrade to Scatter Lasers for an additional 10 points per model.
Couple that with the fact that the Windrider Host formation(which is considered a "Guardian Battlehost" in the new Eldar FOC called the "Warhost", meaning it is a "Core" formation) is:
1x Farseer
1x Warlock Conclave
3x Windrider units
1x Vyper Squadron
That formation will likely have special rules, a "restriction" of "Farseers and Warlocks must be mounted on Jetbikes" and also have the formation be affected by whatever special rules the Eldar Warhost has just like the Necron Decurion does with double-dipping on formations within formations.
pretre wrote: How many points are those Harlie bikes? Are they obsec?
Entirely different conversation than the one that people are freaking out about. There is precedent for eldar bikes all having heavy weapons. The harly bikes come with quite a few frills for the extra points and are multiple wound models.
Nobody is freaking out about Eldar bikes all having heavy weapons.
They're freaking out about 17 point Jetbikes, which are Troops and in minimum squadrons of 3, able to upgrade to Scatter Lasers for an additional 10 points per model.
Couple that with the fact that the Windrider Host formation(which is considered a "Guardian Battlehost" in the new Eldar FOC called the "Warhost", meaning it is a "Core" formation) is:
1x Farseer
1x Warlock Conclave
3x Windrider units
1x Vyper Squadron
That formation will likely have special rules, a "restriction" of "Farseers and Warlocks must be mounted on Jetbikes" and also have the formation be affected by whatever special rules the Eldar Warhost has just like the Necron Decurion does with double-dipping on formations within formations.
That is why people are freaking out.
Exactly. Jetbikes are bad enough as it is and we don't even know what the formation rules will give them.
Toofast wrote: Actually, I live in a magical place where my opponents know how to build a decent list. We all play this INHERENTLY COMPETITIVE game with the intention of (gasp!) WINNING. I don't remove 1 spark plug when I take my car to the track just because it might be faster than my opponent's cars. I don't shoot IDPA with both eyes closed just because I might have more training or a more accurate weapon than the guy standing next to me. Why would I handicap my list? I think a lot of people must be confusing this game with D&D. There is a 300 page rulebook with the sole purpose of telling you how to determine who wins the game. I missed the memo where it became a crime to build lists with that in mind. Forge the narrative is a poor excuse for writing unbalanced and unclear rules. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want to buy that hook, line and sinker and make yourself feel better by belittling anyone who has the nerve to actually try to win a game instead of just shoving your man dollies around the table while making "pew pew" noises, that's on you.
I'd just like to add that generally, I have fun at tournaments.
When the game is grievously unbalanced, that's where the stigma gets attached to "trying too hard" to win. It's only because the rules are busted and allow for hideously funless and one-sided games, that social pressure has to be used, to try and get the sort of games that balanced rules should be producing.
Bullyboy it already hit, and it is already winning tournaments and destroying friendships. I am pretty sure it will be for sale by the end of the month sometime.
Talys wrote: And, how many of your units were hit with the old Wraithguard, and walked away to talk about it?
As a primarily Tyranid and Nurgle player...
Lots of things actually. Sure, the ID on a 6 was a pain but FNPMCs and Invuln saves on elite units could soak quite a lot. Heck, I've watched Daemon units laugh them off. And D-Scythes weren't too much a threat to Plague Marines (wounding on 5s and we still had a 5+ FNP unless they rolled that mythical 6).
But now? FNP got dumpstered by the mere virtue of the weapon being a D weapon. Invuln saves suffer as well as on that roll of a 6...poof. No invuln saves.
You've pretty much taken a unit I could soak with a Venomthrope supported Carnifex brood (with Catalyst of course) or a Daemon blob and wrecked the tarpits I would leave with them.
And just you watch. I'll bet dollars to dimes that the Wraithknight is cheaper than either of the two Hierodule variants with its already superior WS, BS and I.
But yeah, it appears to *me* that the people that are actually going bonkers over everything are not competitive players. Jetbikes are not that hard to kill people... get over it.
Swabby wrote: Bullyboy it already hit, and it is already winning tournaments and destroying friendships. I am pretty sure it will be for sale by the end of the month sometime.
You do understand that the trend now for GW is to showcase entire rules for as-yet unreleased units in White Dwarf, right?
The jetbike rules are in the White Dwarf on sale Saturday. The list of how the Warhost is organized there as well.
But yeah, it appears to *me* that the people that are actually going bonkers over everything are not competitive players. Jetbikes are not that hard to kill people... get over it.
We know their points cost and we know for a fact that they can all equip scatterlasers. We know that Eldar are getting access to easy S: D weapons. What counters are there to Jetbikes that can't get ruined by the new Wraith stuff?
pretre wrote: How many points are those Harlie bikes? Are they obsec?
Entirely different conversation than the one that people are freaking out about. There is precedent for eldar bikes all having heavy weapons. The harly bikes come with quite a few frills for the extra points and are multiple wound models.
Nobody is freaking out about Eldar bikes all having heavy weapons.
They're freaking out about 17 point Jetbikes, which are Troops and in minimum squadrons of 3, able to upgrade to Scatter Lasers for an additional 10 points per model.
Couple that with the fact that the Windrider Host formation(which is considered a "Guardian Battlehost" in the new Eldar FOC called the "Warhost", meaning it is a "Core" formation) is:
1x Farseer
1x Warlock Conclave
3x Windrider units
1x Vyper Squadron
That formation will likely have special rules, a "restriction" of "Farseers and Warlocks must be mounted on Jetbikes" and also have the formation be affected by whatever special rules the Eldar Warhost has just like the Necron Decurion does with double-dipping on formations within formations.
That is why people are freaking out.
The other thing to note as well is that there are NO DUD UNITS in that option. Where the Necron and Khorne Daemonkin detachments forced people to take a dud unit they likely didn't use (Tomb blades and Possessed) this forces people to do...what? Dust off the Eldar army they fielded the codex before this one? The army some still use now with the current codex's added Wraithknight and Serpent spam treats?
There is literally no punishment to form that detachment. Worse still both the Necron and Daemonkin detachments have a single Core choice they can take. Eldar? They get 3, one of which is lol and the other 2 will never see the light of day.
But part of what grinds is the fact they have those options and one of those options has no 'duds' in it.
But yeah, it appears to *me* that the people that are actually going bonkers over everything are not competitive players. Jetbikes are not that hard to kill people... get over it.
Again, it's not just Jetbikes. They're cheap enough they can take things to counter whatever you bring to kill the Jetbikes.
Swabby wrote: Since when is the vyper not a dud eldar unit? People have ignored them for as long as I can remember.
Congrats. You have a 50 point Vyper tax. It's certainly not as much a dud as Possessed or Tomb Blades are. Seriously, have you read the Possessed rules?
Swabby wrote: Since when is the vyper not a dud eldar unit? People have ignored them for as long as I can remember.
Vypers were "dud" options when compared to the other FA choices.
When they are mandatory as part of what amounts to your "Troops" choice, unlocking 1-12 Auxiliary slots for you to fill up with all the creamy goodness you could want from the rest of the book?
Suddenly they become a little bit less of a "dud"...
Once again, for reference since people seem to not have seen it:
It'll be really interesting to see what happens with this. I think the Eldar dex was the one thing everyone was looking forward to being tweaked around, including Eldar players. Them getting all around buffs with no real nerfs is obviously going to rub the community the wrong way. All we can do is wait for the dex.
Either way Scattergate 2015 is gonna be something we can all remember with lols.
Swabby wrote: Since when is the vyper not a dud eldar unit? People have ignored them for as long as I can remember.
Congrats. You have a 50 point Vyper tax. It's certainly not as much a dud as Possessed or Tomb Blades are. Seriously, have you read the Possessed rules?
Swabby wrote: Since when is the vyper not a dud eldar unit? People have ignored them for as long as I can remember.
Congrats. You have a 50 point Vyper tax. It's certainly not as much a dud as Possessed or Tomb Blades are. Seriously, have you read the Possessed rules?
Tomb Blades are a dud? What did I miss?
Don't you know, one entry from the Eldar codex has been spoiled, every other army ever printed is a dud now?
mercury14 wrote: One thing... Windriders are still Ld8. A 270 point Windrider unit losing three models, well that's a morale check you don't want to have to make...
Also jinking and having to snap fire with a 270 point shooting unit is no small sacrifice.
The 10 man squads are being used to illustrate the upper end of the crazy and for the hyperbolic effect. Units of 5 of these will be the go to arrangement I think. They will still unleash an absurd amount of fire given their FOC slot and cost and will leave lots of points for the bearers of the D.
mercury14 wrote: One thing... Windriders are still Ld8. A 270 point Windrider unit losing three models, well that's a morale check you don't want to have to make...
Also jinking and having to snap fire with a 270 point shooting unit is no small sacrifice.
The 10 man squads are being used to illustrate the upper end of the crazy and for the hyperbolic effect. Units of 5 of these will be the go to arrangement I think. They will still unleash an absurd amount of fire given their FOC slot and cost and will leave lots of points for the bearers of the D.
What about the possibility that they'll hamstring wraiths with needing to be close to a seer again to operate at full capacity? There could be some caveats here.
Also killing 1-2 models in a small Windrider squad forces risky morale checks...
mortetvie wrote: Yes corsair, math says jetbikes with scatter lasers are unstoppable and nothing can win against them! No ship can withstand firepower of that magnitude! Game over, do not pass go!
Seriously, I'm not worried about it and I am not afraid to play against such an army with any of my standard builds.
You really don't see an issue with 160 s6 shots for 1080 points, on models with a 48" threat range who can move after they shoot you to get out of range of retaliation? And then the fact they still have a chunk of points to spend on things to counter anything you bring to counter the Jetbikes?
In my experience, having that many shots is not the be all end. I've played lists where I had 9 Vypers and 9 War Walkers with more Vypers/War Walkers as allies and while all of that shooting is very strong, it can only go so far. I only bring up this example to say I know what that much firepower can do or not do.
It really comes down to how much terrain is on the game, what targets are available on either side, what shooting capabilities are on either side, how good the target priority is of either player and ultimately player skill.
Indeed, there are many armies and lists that would care less about that firepower listed above, so unless you are playing mathhammer in a vacuum or only play with infantry models that are T4 in a gunline, real life experience in tournament settings tells me this type of list will not be unstoppable.
I am not sure what you are smoking, but volume of fire is how to win at 40K. The more dice you roll for saves, the more guys you lose. It's quite simple. 10 Scatriders are going to ruin any infantry and light vehicles. You can live in denial land all you like. The numbers don't lie.
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mercury14 wrote: One thing... Windriders are still Ld8. A 270 point Windrider unit losing three models, well that's a morale check you don't want to have to make...
Also jinking and having to snap fire with a 270 point shooting unit is no small sacrifice.
And how many people will attach Farseers to the unit for buffs? Most I'd reckon.
mercury14 wrote: One thing... Windriders are still Ld8. A 270 point Windrider unit losing three models, well that's a morale check you don't want to have to make...
Also jinking and having to snap fire with a 270 point shooting unit is no small sacrifice.
The 10 man squads are being used to illustrate the upper end of the crazy and for the hyperbolic effect. Units of 5 of these will be the go to arrangement I think. They will still unleash an absurd amount of fire given their FOC slot and cost and will leave lots of points for the bearers of the D.
What about the possibility that they'll hamstring wraiths with needing to be close to a seer again to operate at full capacity? There could be some caveats here.
Also killing 1-2 models in a small Windrider squad forces risky morale checks...
Yeah but you have more of them so it isn't as big a deal. Also a morale check is hardly a forgone conclusion. I think they have like 1/4 chance of failing or something? And don't Warlocks have a power to reroll?
mercury14 wrote: One thing... Windriders are still Ld8. A 270 point Windrider unit losing three models, well that's a morale check you don't want to have to make...
Also jinking and having to snap fire with a 270 point shooting unit is no small sacrifice.
The 10 man squads are being used to illustrate the upper end of the crazy and for the hyperbolic effect. Units of 5 of these will be the go to arrangement I think. They will still unleash an absurd amount of fire given their FOC slot and cost and will leave lots of points for the bearers of the D.
Plus: Avatar's not really competeing vs. actually useful HQs now. Fearless bubble + 36" range + Assualt move after fire = Perma Fearless. I'm holding out hope he's gotten better and worth more than a fearless bubble, but I've also been hoping that since 3rd so I'm not going to hold my breath.
Oh no jetbike eldar! Have your one armed, walking with a limp, guardsmen walk over and poke em with a pillow in H2H...
So Eldar getting a new codex seems cool. I think I read through the ranting that scatter lasers lost target lot. Did wave serpent shields get nerfed in any way?
Tsilber wrote: Oh no jetbike eldar! Have your one armed, walking with a limp, guardsmen walk over and poke em with a pillow in H2H...
So Eldar getting a new codex seems cool. I think I read through the ranting that scatter lasers lost target lot. Did wave serpent shields get nerfed in any way?
Good luck getting into assault with a unit with a 48" threat range who can move after they shoot.
