tneva82 wrote: Another bonus: Less issues with morale with 2x5. Are there any strategems flash gits would like to use? Those encourage deathstar style aka 25 lootas but don't recall top of my head anything flash gits would be dying to use. More dakka if facing -1 or more when you need to move in range but that's rather specific case...
edit: Grot screen. That's the one purpose to have 10 unit. With 2x5 you will get unit of 5 wiped out without grot screens to help them. Another would be loot it.
With also bustas on the board I don't think grot screen would help that much the gitz as the tank hunters would be priority target for sure. Loot it is a good point instead, but I think having less issues to morale and better BS thanks to the additional kaptin is superior to the eventual +1 save for 1 CP given to only 5 dudes instead of 10. Not to mention than the 10 man squad may want to split fire and some shots could be wasted anyway.
OTOH on big plain boards opponent has good time to shoot with no LOS blocking and in these knight heavy meta's...BW's are actually soft targets. People are gearing up to one shot castellans. That's equilavent of causing 84 wounds to T8. How many BW's that is?
I agree that going full mechanized is less efficient than going full green tide at very competitive levels but I don't think that the real competitive lists are built with the concept of 1-shotting the castellan, only fools do. A list with something than can reliably cause 84 W to T8 in a single turn of shooting is pretty much auto lose against many aeldari lists which are the other super cheesy top tiers and also green tides which are already recognized as competitive lists to have in mind when it comes to list building.
tneva82 wrote: Another bonus: Less issues with morale with 2x5. Are there any strategems flash gits would like to use? Those encourage deathstar style aka 25 lootas but don't recall top of my head anything flash gits would be dying to use. More dakka if facing -1 or more when you need to move in range but that's rather specific case...
edit: Grot screen. That's the one purpose to have 10 unit. With 2x5 you will get unit of 5 wiped out without grot screens to help them. Another would be loot it.
With also bustas on the board I don't think grot screen would help that much the gitz as the tank hunters would be priority target for sure. Loot it is a good point instead, but I think having less issues to morale and better BS thanks to the additional kaptin is superior to the eventual +1 save for 1 CP given to only 5 dudes instead of 10. Not to mention than the 10 man squad may want to split fire and some shots could be wasted anyway.
Not saying it's better. Just giving up the reasons why one might(in general and not just in this case) want 10 lootas.
Not sure what you mean about splitting. Apart from possibly wanting squads to be far away there's no difference with splitting/concentrating fire anyway and due to FB trait there's limit on splitting units far away you want anyway.
The comparison was to 2x5 or 10 in the same trukk, so all the gitz in the same place anyway.
10 dudes fire at the same target, some shots could be wasted in overkill. They may have to declare split fire in advance to avoid that which may be a total wrong estimate. It's easier to limit overkill if you have two separate squads.
2x5 are also more useful for triggering the trait. First squad kills an enemy unit, second one get the +1 to hit. Maybe mek gunz can't manage to kill a unit themselves so 2x5 are actually more deadly than the big squad.
2x5 are also more useful for triggering the trait. First squad kills an enemy unit, second one get the +1 to hit. Maybe mek gunz can't manage to kill a unit themselves so 2x5 are actually more deadly than the big squad.
Keep in mind, though, if they're in the trukk they can't trigger the trait. They can RECEIVE the +1 from someone outside their transport (because the trukk will get it, and then pass modifiers on to passengers via Open Top), but if the passengers get a kill, they aren't on the board so you can't measure from them so they can't give it to anyone.
Related question about Freeboota kulture - if I have a Kustom Boosta Blasta with multiple shooting weapons, and I destroy an enemy unit with my 4 burnas, do I get the freeboota +1 to my rivet kannon?
Add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made by models with this kultur if
any other friendly unit with this kultur within 24" has destroyed
an enemy unit this phase.
Key words are "any other friendly unit". So, no, a Unit can't trigger FB on themselves.
2x5 are also more useful for triggering the trait. First squad kills an enemy unit, second one get the +1 to hit. Maybe mek gunz can't manage to kill a unit themselves so 2x5 are actually more deadly than the big squad.
Keep in mind, though, if they're in the trukk they can't trigger the trait. They can RECEIVE the +1 from someone outside their transport (because the trukk will get it, and then pass modifiers on to passengers via Open Top), but if the passengers get a kill, they aren't on the board so you can't measure from them so they can't give it to anyone.
Related question about Freeboota kulture - if I have a Kustom Boosta Blasta with multiple shooting weapons, and I destroy an enemy unit with my 4 burnas, do I get the freeboota +1 to my rivet kannon?
Embarked Units aren't considered to be on the field. So if they "trigger an ability" you can't measure from them. I think there's an FAQ out there that states this.
Can I Mob up a unit with another unit which is teleported in, in the same turn?
Both stratagems describe the actions (combining the unit / deploying the unit on the board) to happen 'at the end of your movement phase', so are there any further restrictions to which happens first?
So I finally actually played a game with the new codex, after the local meta spent all december either on "work saturdays" or "kids home sick" every time I asked for a game.
List
Deffskulls brigade
- bike boss (power klaw, killa klaw, brutal but kunnin)
- SAG - SAG - 30 boyz with stuff
- 5x 10 grots
- 3x lone Shokkjump Dragsta
- 3x lone KMB minimek
- 5x smasha gun
- 2x traktor kannon
- Bonebreaka
Open war cards, got some silly mission with opponent in the middle, sitting on a single movable objective, and my army all around about 10" away.
Opponent was on Deathwatch (3 bikes, smash captain, 2 other random characters, plasma dudes, Corvus Blackstar, asscannon Razorback and 2 or 3 10-man mixed squads) plus a basic shooty Knight (gatling and melta) so not the best of lists. But it was fully painted close to display case standard!
He takes first turn and is very liberal with his flyer trajectory but I let is slide and he parks behind my lines and kills the bike boss. Knight and friends kill a few Mek Guns and a bunch of grots via shield going for the Tankbustas.
My T1 I just unleash the tactical genius of More Dakka and Showin' Off on the Tankbustas, and betwen them, the Dragstas and Mek Gunz the Knight and the Corvus are both left on 1 freakin' wound and I struggle to deal with them for the next 2 turns as the Knight charges my Tankbustas to tie them up. Here's the fun part, I completely forgot that Tankbustas re-roll hits vs vehicles. Both of those would have been smoking craters turn 1 for sure.
Anyway, his T2 he gets the freebie shooting phase with his Knight and Corvus, taking out most Mek Gunz and then charges the Tankbustas while his infantry is working its way through layer after layer of gretchin and takes out about half the boyz.
My T2 the Bonebreaka tellyports in, he uses some strategem to shoot it immediately and brackets it, but even down to D6+D6 attacks I Ramming Speed it in and run down a whole 10 man unit while some grots take the bullets to let the last boyz engage the other.
T3 is spent mostly grinding me down, then I finally take out the Knight and Corvus.
T4 is my remaining stuff (mostly 2 Dragstas, the SAGs and KMB meks) gunning down his characters like dogs as they try to pass around the Relic as a hot potato. He forfeits with something like half a squad of Intercessors left on the table.
My take away is
1) Remember your rules, I could have mopped up T2 if I remembered my re-rolls. I was very happy with everything in my army otherwise. Dragstas are perhaps the most unusual unit, but they worked out well. Their firepower is massive and they can deliver it anywhere at any time, and BS 3+ with Deffskull re-rolls means they can contend with supersonic craft easily enough.
2) If aircraft are in your opponents lines, use traktor kannon last. If aircraft are in your lines, use traktor kannon first. I messed it up and crashed the Corvus on my own head, killing a bunch of stuff.
Levski wrote: Can I Mob up a unit with another unit which is teleported in, in the same turn?
Both stratagems describe the actions (combining the unit / deploying the unit on the board) to happen 'at the end of your movement phase', so are there any further restrictions to which happens first?
Played a wierd 5x5 game. Meganobz and boyz were great. Kommandoes were also quite useful. Boyz even managed to hit something with a tankbusta bomb!
1v1 was basically won by turn 2 due to 1st turn charge and 2d turn meganob bomb also making it into combat. But than sw termies with 2 characters and a gk landraider came along. In the end 1367 pt of orks managed to kill like 2k pts of enemies and still had something left on the table.
Twas funny when 2 smashas overwatched a sw termie lord to death after 2 turns of doing absolutely nothing to castellan robots.
Going with a Brigade, you still need 2 more HQ. I'd suggest a Biker Boss (just cuz they're really strong) and a Weirdboy. Since you got the CP for it, make him a Warphead too and give him Fist of Gork and Da Jump. Everything else seems fine to me.
Since everyone's posting FB lists I didn't want to miss out of all the fun, so here's mine! yes I know it sucks.
Spoiler:
HQ Badrukk
Killaboss
KFF big mek
Big mek - relic SAG 2 Weirdboyz
Troops
10x10 grots
Elites
Painboy
Heavy support
2x10 flash gitz - 4 ammo runts total
12 smasha gunz
1 killa kan - big shoota
Flyer
Dakkajet - 6 supa's
Gist is to mob up the flash gitz and have the killa kan close by so when it pops they can loot it giving them a 3+/5++/6+++ plus the grot bubble wrap. Obviously gonna be using a command re-roll every turn to try and trigger their showin off rule, lol.
How does mob-up work on units like nobs or gits that have ammo runts, or bustas with their squigs? Can you mob up a 10+2 with another 10+2, or would one of them need to be a 9+1 instead?
BaconCatBug wrote: Because of Knights you simply don't have any chance. Even a double tankbusta bomb can't put a dent in them. Your Biker Boss won't ever get close enough to melee the knights and the Lootas won't scratch the knights either.
This.
25 Lootas with More Dakka and Showing Off is liable to get about 8 wounds on a Knight with a 4+ save, or 6 wounds on a knight with a 3+ invuln. If you want to kill a Knight, you either have to do it in CQC or you have to get Tankbustas and use More Stikkbombs. (Ten Tankbustas with More Stikkbombs, Showin' Off, and More Dakka will one-shot a Castellan with a 3+ invuln. It'll also burn through four Command Points, but that's worth it to kill a Castellan.)
Also, it's a bad idea to take only a few units with Skarboyz. I love Skarboyz, they're great at chopping stuff to bits, but with only two squads you're going to be pretty vulnerable to having them focused down.
Having played the new Speedfreek/buggy vehicles, I'm not impressed. Thanks to some generous family, I've got one of each, but each time I field them, I'm underwhelmed.
First is the cost. 100-120 points is a lot of the number of shots that they deliver, and their huge base makes it hard for the rest of the army to maneuver.
I've accompanied them with Bikerz, lootaz, tankbustaz, boyz, grotz, MANZ, and smashagunz in various combinations.
So.... am I missing something? Are they a unit where fielding 3 of one type makes them better? Is there a stratagem that I'm not considering? I really want to like them, but I'm finding it difficult to justify a place in the list for them.
personally i love the megatrakk and shokkjump. Rest are sorta meh, though i seem to find it hard to not include a trike sometimes. Then again i run a lot of steel to begin with so that waaagh benefit is good enough reason to bring it.
Megatrakk has done a ton of damage for me pretty quickly. I imagine a trio of them would be dirty. Its probably the only one i actually want repeats of.
BaconCatBug wrote: Because of Knights you simply don't have any chance. Even a double tankbusta bomb can't put a dent in them. Your Biker Boss won't ever get close enough to melee the knights and the Lootas won't scratch the knights either.
This.
25 Lootas with More Dakka and Showing Off is liable to get about 8 wounds on a Knight with a 4+ save, or 6 wounds on a knight with a 3+ invuln. If you want to kill a Knight, you either have to do it in CQC or you have to get Tankbustas and use More Stikkbombs. (Ten Tankbustas with More Stikkbombs, Showin' Off, and More Dakka will one-shot a Castellan with a 3+ invuln. It'll also burn through four Command Points, but that's worth it to kill a Castellan.)
Also, it's a bad idea to take only a few units with Skarboyz. I love Skarboyz, they're great at chopping stuff to bits, but with only two squads you're going to be pretty vulnerable to having them focused down.
10 tank busta will also never get within range of knight that knows what they can do. Any transport will be one shotted and explosion alone will kill couple.
Skarboyz meanwhile suffer from lack of reliable way of getting into combat.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Geemoney wrote: @flaming tadpole Do you put the killa next to the flash gitz so they can loot it when it blows up; so they get that sweet +2 armour while in cover?
Looks like it. Problem with that plan though is that one killa kan is such an insignificant threat it won't be bothered to be shot for a looong time. Especially with loot it strategem. Something that actually is threat would be better for that role.
Army will also get screwed when you don't get 1st turn and there's not enough LOS blocking or enemy has enough LOS ignoring weapons. One unit will get badly mauled minimum.
The megatrakk I'd say is the best of the bunch, but still about 20pts overcosted imo. Right now there's literally no reason to take them over a squad of tankbustas in a trukk. Hopefully all the buggies get a big point drop in the next CA.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Geemoney wrote: @flaming tadpole Do you put the killa next to the flash gitz so they can loot it when it blows up; so they get that sweet +2 armour while in cover?
Precisely. Have several of those nearby. LOT more likely to be targeted than killa kan. Killa kan? Opponent will go "zzzz" at the threat that thing poses. Firepower taken at killa kan would be more useful at shooting flash gits grot screen or not!
BaconCatBug wrote: Because of Knights you simply don't have any chance. Even a double tankbusta bomb can't put a dent in them. Your Biker Boss won't ever get close enough to melee the knights and the Lootas won't scratch the knights either.
This.
25 Lootas with More Dakka and Showing Off is liable to get about 8 wounds on a Knight with a 4+ save, or 6 wounds on a knight with a 3+ invuln. If you want to kill a Knight, you either have to do it in CQC or you have to get Tankbustas and use More Stikkbombs. (Ten Tankbustas with More Stikkbombs, Showin' Off, and More Dakka will one-shot a Castellan with a 3+ invuln. It'll also burn through four Command Points, but that's worth it to kill a Castellan.)
Also, it's a bad idea to take only a few units with Skarboyz. I love Skarboyz, they're great at chopping stuff to bits, but with only two squads you're going to be pretty vulnerable to having them focused down.
10 tank busta will also never get within range of knight that knows what they can do. Any transport will be one shotted and explosion alone will kill couple.
Skarboyz meanwhile suffer from lack of reliable way of getting into combat.
That's why Orks are so cheap - You don't just run one. It's not that hard to bring three Battlewagons with Deff Rollas, three 10x squads of Tankbustas (with some Squig Bombs to boot, for fun and to soak up explosions as needed), and a Big Mek on a bike with a Kustom Force Field to help keep them healthy. I just threw together a sample list for fun, and managed to pack all that together into a Brigade that also had 90 Ork Boyz, three Deffkoptas to fill out the mandatory Fast Attack slot, and a nice Krumpy warboss. (I took three 10x boyz squads to soak up explosions instead of the Squig bombs, and one Tankbusta squad is nine-man so that the Warboss or the Weirdboy can ride inside if necessary.)
Obviously you can't do that AND take skarboyz, but if you do want to take Skarboyz you will be using 'Da Jump every turn to get 30 of your boyz up close and personal while the rest of the army runs ~9" up the board. With 180 boyz who all have 6+ FNP from a Painboy, it's hard to stop them all.
cheap in points (usually) but not cheap in pocketbook. I imagine thats why i havnt seen anyone other than me even use the buggies. Nobody has the cash and they arent Tau/Eldar new toy level of good.
Wagons especially with the codex price drop are stupid cheap for what they do. Real money...not so much lol...
Part of the issue with orks is you need to amass so much of the same stuff to run them that you get a gigantic army super quick without really trying. No idea how i somehow ended up with nearly 10k of orks....i honestly dont know lol
edit: Added comment about Da Jump and Skar Boyz, honestly idont see any other way to use those boyz. I did a 2v2 this weekend with another ork friend and he runs Goffs, i run Bad Moonz. He had no weirdboyz, he also didnt like them...until i noticed Da Jump isnt kulture-bound so i launched his skarboyz across the board and he instantly fell in love with those things lol. Hes a ancient ork player so hes used to weirdboyz being total trash.
Geemoney wrote: @flaming tadpole Do you put the killa next to the flash gitz so they can loot it when it blows up; so they get that sweet +2 armour while in cover?
Looks like it. Problem with that plan though is that one killa kan is such an insignificant threat it won't be bothered to be shot for a looong time. Especially with loot it strategem. Something that actually is threat would be better for that role.
You can always just drop a couple smasha's and upgrade it to a deff dread if you really think your opponent isn't going to shoot it. Majority of the time they're not gonna blink twice at sparing a couple guns to down a Kan as opposed to just wasting them on grots.
Army will also get screwed when you don't get 1st turn and there's not enough LOS blocking or enemy has enough LOS ignoring weapons. One unit will get badly mauled minimum.
That goes for the majority of ork lists. lootas have it worse than they do not getting first turn and they're still an auto-include in most lists.
Precisely. Have several of those nearby. LOT more likely to be targeted than killa kan. Killa kan? Opponent will go "zzzz" at the threat that thing poses. Firepower taken at killa kan would be more useful at shooting flash gits grot screen or not!
Good idea, but won't work. Flash gitz aren't going to be in range after the first turn and even if your opponent gets first turn and happens to pop one right next to the gitz only one squad is going to be able to use it.
The following is a big ask, I know, but if anyone has any suggestions you'd be doing an old Ork player a favor. A friend of mine is getting back into the game after several years (5th edition, more or less) and I told him I'd help him put together a list for an upcoming 2000 point tournament. Problem is, I play Sisters and don't know the first thing about Orks, other than Lootas can mob up and shoot things well and you have a wizard guy that jumps squads around the board. Anyhow, the following is roughly what he has, although he has time to paint up a few new things before the tournament as needed. If anyone wants to take a shot at coming up with decent list, here's what he has:
55 choppa boyz
36 shoota boys
40 lootas
14 commandos
16 burnas
12 mega nobs
10ish nob bikes
10 bikes
4 meks
16 gretchin
5 battle wagons
4 trucks
9 kans
1 dred
10 nobs with klaws
10 nobs on foot with assortment of other weapons
Several warbosses of various types
BaconCatBug wrote: Because of Knights you simply don't have any chance. Even a double tankbusta bomb can't put a dent in them. Your Biker Boss won't ever get close enough to melee the knights and the Lootas won't scratch the knights either.
This.
25 Lootas with More Dakka and Showing Off is liable to get about 8 wounds on a Knight with a 4+ save, or 6 wounds on a knight with a 3+ invuln. If you want to kill a Knight, you either have to do it in CQC or you have to get Tankbustas and use More Stikkbombs. (Ten Tankbustas with More Stikkbombs, Showin' Off, and More Dakka will one-shot a Castellan with a 3+ invuln. It'll also burn through four Command Points, but that's worth it to kill a Castellan.)
Also, it's a bad idea to take only a few units with Skarboyz. I love Skarboyz, they're great at chopping stuff to bits, but with only two squads you're going to be pretty vulnerable to having them focused down.
10 tank busta will also never get within range of knight that knows what they can do. Any transport will be one shotted and explosion alone will kill couple.
Skarboyz meanwhile suffer from lack of reliable way of getting into combat.
That's why Orks are so cheap - You don't just run one. It's not that hard to bring three Battlewagons with Deff Rollas, three 10x squads of Tankbustas (with some Squig Bombs to boot, for fun and to soak up explosions as needed), and a Big Mek on a bike with a Kustom Force Field to help keep them healthy. I just threw together a sample list for fun, and managed to pack all that together into a Brigade that also had 90 Ork Boyz, three Deffkoptas to fill out the mandatory Fast Attack slot, and a nice Krumpy warboss. (I took three 10x boyz squads to soak up explosions instead of the Squig bombs, and one Tankbusta squad is nine-man so that the Warboss or the Weirdboy can ride inside if necessary.)
Obviously you can't do that AND take skarboyz, but if you do want to take Skarboyz you will be using 'Da Jump every turn to get 30 of your boyz up close and personal while the rest of the army runs ~9" up the board. With 180 boyz who all have 6+ FNP from a Painboy, it's hard to stop them all.
And then you lose against non knights with that tank busta skew list.
And da jump is not reliable way to bring skar boyz into combat...
And 180 boyz was hard to remove start of 8th ed. These days non optimized gunlines remove 60/turn. Bring anti horde army and 100 boyz is reasonable casualty rate.
Geemoney wrote: @flaming tadpole Do you put the killa next to the flash gitz so they can loot it when it blows up; so they get that sweet +2 armour while in cover?
Looks like it. Problem with that plan though is that one killa kan is such an insignificant threat it won't be bothered to be shot for a looong time. Especially with loot it strategem. Something that actually is threat would be better for that role.
You can always just drop a couple smasha's and upgrade it to a deff dread if you really think your opponent isn't going to shoot it. Majority of the time they're not gonna blink twice at sparing a couple guns to down a Kan as opposed to just wasting them on grots.
Who's stupid enough to waste guns on teethless kan that is no concern and give your gits extra save? That's wasting guns making your army better...even shooting grots is better. Especially as you don'" waste lascannons vs kan but higher rof weapons. dead grots and flash gits is better than killing useless kan and making gits better.
Sure it works if opponent is stupid but counting on that is bad idea. Take out kan when you have taken out gits. Win win. That kan is worse than useless
And then you lose against non knights with that tank busta skew list.
And da jump is not reliable way to bring skar boyz into combat...
And 180 boyz was hard to remove start of 8th ed. These days non optimized gunlines remove 60/turn. Bring anti horde army and 100 boyz is reasonable casualty rate.
Tankbustas are a great unit against almost any army, though, not just Knights. About the only thing they're not excellent against is Monstrous Creatures, and even then we're still rerolling 1s and they're still pretty darned good.
Why is Da Jump not reliable? It's only about a 55% chance of getting the roll with 'Ere We Go, but that's 55% that can't really be avoided and it happens every turn like clockwork unless your opponent has one of those 4+ Ignore the Power strategems.
I'm also skeptical of your numbers for horde removal. I'm not seeing many "Non optimized" gunlines that can actually do what you're talking about, at least not until a turn or two has gone by, all their guns are in rapid fire range, they've got ideal line of sight for everything... Basically, the only armies I'm seeing that match your numbers are ones that are playing in a vacuum under ideal circumstances. I'd like to actually see what kind of lists you're talking about, because it sounds like you're heavily exaggerating to make your point sound better.
Tank bustas are rather specialized in that it is mainly good against tough vehicles. Lootas are much more all around.
And da jump is 55% plus chance of failing da jump. That is NOT automatic either as number of failures I have had(and simple element school math) shows. And 55% is NOT reliable. It's 50-50.
And even before codex 60 model/turn was fairly typical even without particular optimization(lousy dark lances over superior disintegrator guns that are better vs tanks AND hordes etc). And after codex came out other armies have got BOOST to their damage output while orks became softer...
And then we hit into skew lists like the 2 repulsor list I ran into in 1750 pts that killed in T1 70 grots(60 of them by grot screen so T4), 21 boyz and 15 lootas. That's 106 models. And even THAT wasn't optimized for horde clearing(there was even nastier one around that I dodged). Luckily that's getting scew list but when 60/turn isn't that hard to get(especially since armies have gotten boost to firepower after ork codex came out) and orks have got softer idea that you can simply hold out by survivability...is pipe dream.
You need to do what every army do. Alpha strike them. You need to do significant damage T1. T2 you need to be mopping up. GW has made 8th ed be game of alpha strike. If your T1 is walking around skarboyz forward without doing damage you lost.
barontuman wrote: Having played the new Speedfreek/buggy vehicles, I'm not impressed. Thanks to some generous family, I've got one of each, but each time I field them, I'm underwhelmed.
First is the cost. 100-120 points is a lot of the number of shots that they deliver, and their huge base makes it hard for the rest of the army to maneuver.
I've accompanied them with Bikerz, lootaz, tankbustaz, boyz, grotz, MANZ, and smashagunz in various combinations.
So.... am I missing something? Are they a unit where fielding 3 of one type makes them better? Is there a stratagem that I'm not considering? I really want to like them, but I'm finding it difficult to justify a place in the list for them.
They are indeed underwhelming for points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for knights, i haven't had much problems vs knights after the codex. Running a regular list: 60 boyz, 10 meganobz, smashas, grots, biker boss with killa klaw and 2 wierdboyz. That's the core. Costs around 1100-1150 pts. Than i often take a painboy, kommandoes or simply more boyz and grots. Sometimes koptas but they're not amazing.
Knights don't do enough damage. If they move up the field, just focus 1-2 down with klaws and smites. Klaw boss with a wierdboy buff can halve a knight. So can 10 meganobz. And they can get to fight twice with strategems. If knights play defensively, i just score and focus on killing one knight early on. They won't get the time to earn enough cp later on.
Banosby wrote: The following is a big ask, I know, but if anyone has any suggestions you'd be doing an old Ork player a favor. A friend of mine is getting back into the game after several years (5th edition, more or less) and I told him I'd help him put together a list for an upcoming 2000 point tournament. Problem is, I play Sisters and don't know the first thing about Orks, other than Lootas can mob up and shoot things well and you have a wizard guy that jumps squads around the board. Anyhow, the following is roughly what he has, although he has time to paint up a few new things before the tournament as needed.
“Snip”
Thanks in advance!
Hi B,
The good thing about the new Codex is that everything is now an option, but the final choices depend on how badly your Skumgrod wants to win Without going into nit-pick territory, plan for losing lots of models (damage output is up this edition) and consider Mek Gunz for a useful addition to the list of available units.
tneva82 wrote: Tank bustas are rather specialized in that it is mainly good against tough vehicles. Lootas are much more all around.
And da jump is 55% plus chance of failing da jump. That is NOT automatic either as number of failures I have had(and simple element school math) shows. And 55% is NOT reliable. It's 50-50.
And even before codex 60 model/turn was fairly typical even without particular optimization(lousy dark lances over superior disintegrator guns that are better vs tanks AND hordes etc). And after codex came out other armies have got BOOST to their damage output while orks became softer...
And then we hit into skew lists like the 2 repulsor list I ran into in 1750 pts that killed in T1 70 grots(60 of them by grot screen so T4), 21 boyz and 15 lootas. That's 106 models. And even THAT wasn't optimized for horde clearing(there was even nastier one around that I dodged). Luckily that's getting scew list but when 60/turn isn't that hard to get(especially since armies have gotten boost to firepower after ork codex came out) and orks have got softer idea that you can simply hold out by survivability...is pipe dream.
You need to do what every army do. Alpha strike them. You need to do significant damage T1. T2 you need to be mopping up. GW has made 8th ed be game of alpha strike. If your T1 is walking around skarboyz forward without doing damage you lost.
Lootas are better against infantry and elite infantry, Tankbustas are better against all vehicles and most high toughness targets.
It's going to be a 4+ roll to pass Da Jump, which is an 11/12 chance of passing without using rerolls. Throw in the Skorched Gitbonez and you've got a 35/36 chance of passing. Add a Command Point to reroll and we're looking at a 1/216 chance of failure. And I never said that 'Ere We Go was a reliable way to make it into combat every turn - It's a reliable way to move quickly and harass your opponent. (Also, I find it funny you said, ("55% is 50/50". It's not. It's 55/45.)
You keep insisting on this incredible damage output that everyone can apparently do, but what are the lists? How are they managing this? The only thing you've mentioned so far is "Twin repulsors", which is less tham a third of 1750 points and can't themselves put out anti-infantry fire as efficiently as you're claiming, so what was the magic bullet in this list? Or did they just roll really well and you're using your own bad luck as proof that hordes aren't durable?
Ran up against wolves today. After non/stop having lootas was craving change of pace if for nothing else than the god awful amount of dice rolling! Especially I have generally less than 3h to play including setting up and packing ready to leave...So went for more speedy h2h styled list.
Battlewagon [8 PL, 130pts]: 2x Big Shoota
. Categories: Faction: <Clan>, Faction: Ork, Transport, Vehicle, Battlewagon, Heavy Support
So basic plan was nob and warlord loaded bonecrusha and trike head the charge, evil suns(originally was intending 30+10 but then realized would leave me with one unit for endless tide and one unit is fairly easy to wipe completely. With 2 increases odds of using that strategem) da jumped forward and skarboyz either da jumping T2 or coming in deep strike. I opted to go for reliable deep strike along with warboss.
Opponent was the guy I have been playing many times. He has generally very casual wolves with heavy shooty elements. He had big guy on wolf(new addition I think), runepriestx2(one with termi armour), 2 units of grey hunters(one in rhino), one unit of blood claws in rhino, big 8 or so terminators of h2h goodyness and shields and big unit of wolves with bazillion h2h weapons and at least few storm shields. Also 2 units of long fangs with several lascannons, missile launchers and 3 plasma cannons.
We played standard 3 card a turn maelstrom with old style deployment/first turn(he wasn't familiar with new one).
Fairly low on terrain for my standards but fair enough. I had nice LOS blocking corner for evil suns and got so that both long fangs couldn't concentrate on one wagon. He got first turn without even needing the +1 for the roll. Termies, including runepriest, and wolven in reserve.
Wolf T1:
He came forward and caused hefty amount of wounds for both wagons. Good for me bonebreaka was still on best conditions barely. As he was firing rhino he declared to grots. I pointed he could have tried getting that 1 wound to bonebreaka pointing out it was on verge of degrading and allowing to hits to stand but he declined. Well didn't get degraded but as it is this DID get last of grots from that unit die to morale giving first blood so wasn't without payoff. 2 hits needing 6+ and me having 4+ save would be pretty unlikely to work(15%) but effect could be big.
Orks 1:
Well I didn't really need advance+charge with wagon and trike but charged anyway. Wagon to rhino, trike to grey hunters. On left wounded wagon limped forward trying to get LOS to other rhino. Not much else except grots took some objectives(scored 1). Psychic weirdboy propels evil sun boyz into his left flank(my POV) near long fang squad with 3 plasma cannons. Shooting. Tank bustas score 3 damage to rhino. That was bad. Scored only 3 wounds and he passed two 5+ saves. SAG fails utterly. Badruk fires at rhino as well and scores another 3 wounds. Humm...Was hoping for better. Assault. Bonebreaka rams into the rhino(good thing overwatch failed). I left it with 4 wounds. Trying to ensure I have clear room to move next turn if need be I boarding acted(btw would the warboss count here for having charged for sake of brutal&kunning?) but only caused 2 more wounds. Killa kaw warlord, 4 big choppa, 1 power klaw and 6 choppa attack and that's it. BLEARGH! Trike guy killed few guys taking some damage in return. Oh and evil sun boyz failed the charge...I think I have worst evil sun boyz ever. Those 78% charges keep failing.
Wolf T2:
Still fairly little. Wolf lord moved toward center and got hefty bodyguard of terminators around. Wolf priest went to my corner with weirdboy where he barely fitted to get behind the enemy lines. Grey hunters came out of rhino and moved around but curiously didn't make any move to charge trike. Huh? Rhino fell back and elsewhere rhino, after disembarking blood claws who also were oddly cautious about moving into center with bazillion grots O_o, went toward evil sun boyz. Uh oh. I knew what was about to happen...Rhino charge!
Psychic he mortaled my weirdboy a bit. Shooting and he blew out both wagons. I lost few tank bustas and 2 nobz who took up 3+ save in return disembarking toward terminator/bloodclaw/wolf lord area. Rhino charged into evil suns tagging them into combat. Bugger.
Ork T2:
Time for charges. Warboss headed toward wolfie lord with nobz heading at blood claws. This might not actually be smart idea due to terminators out there but then again where to go? To right flank? Basically leaves center entirely for him. I SHOULD have brought goffs here to maybe charge terminators(maybe they can do that...If they do that 58% charge). Instead I just stupidly brought warboss to right to charge grey hunters alone. Yep yep. Like that's going to work. Tank bustas had no LOS to much. Maybe could have hunted for rhino if evil suns fall back but instead moved toward the rune priest. I had to go closer due to character rule protecting due to terminators on opposite direction behind LOS blocking terrain. LOL! Anyway psychic I tried to smite at the runepriest who dispelled with ease. Tank bustas got 1 past inv saves. SAG finished off rhino, Badruk dropped blood claw or two.
Then charges. Warlord charged into wolf lord. Forgot to declare terminators(well saved overwatch at least) so after causing whopping 12 wounds past inv save couldn't do anything else. I forget this always. Nobz, with their 12 WS2+ S7 -1 attacks, 3 WS3+, S10 -3 attacks and 11 2+/S5 attacks simply ran over the blood claws. Only problem here is I did what I usually do and forgot to cover character from shooting...Drat.
Evil suns cleared the rhino no problemo. Goff warboss charged, killed 1, died, used strategem to fight once more and killed 1. Yep yep. Worthy usage of him. Idiot!
Trike finished off his grey hunters with 1 wound left.
And then the most epic moment of turn. Weirdboy charged! WAAAAAAGH and hope like hell he can get one wound past save to kill that runic priest. Alas that failed but survived alive at least.
This turn I got pile of vp's from killing 3 unit in combat(2), defend objective(he couldn't get it from me realistically) and another 2 vp from controlling 3 objectives.
Wolf T3:
Wolverine wannabes appeared next to evil suns. Terminators stood still for some reason. Not much else move. Magic he smited my weirdboy dead. Shot couple tank bustas and then charged killing few more and dying in return. Rest of shooting killed trike and killed couple nobz. 3+ isn't much use when lascannon hits you in the head! Warlord died to 3 overcharging plasma cannons. Poof. Terminators then charged nobz which was semi surprise. The way he had stayed put led me thinking he was trying to get the defend objective and charge grots to clear that. Now he risked longer charge than if he had moved. Maybe he wanted to see result of shooting toward nobz first and with that failing opted to go there after all? Anyway nobz stood not a bloody chance. Wolverines made the 9" charge with ease and minced through big pile of them. I struct killing 1. I fought again and killed another. Used CP's to auto pass morale.
Orks T3:
Not much movement except goffs that came toward center where grots were making partial roadblock toward terminators(didn't even TRY charge here. IF I fail I'm sooooo toasted. Now if they want he needs to get long roll and huge to get all into combat) and evil suns that came back alive. I COULD have played it smart and safe and go to my right flank on his DZ, score behind enemy lines, charge(hopefully) last grey hunter block and avoid the wolverines...But ah what the hell. BLOOD! KILL! Let's see how they take 30 orks. I could deploy nice quarter circle allowing loooots of models into combat if I make it.
Shooting. Not much. LOS is giving headache. SAG is failing as usual. Combat. Evil suns...Fail. Bugger. 78% failed again. And with 2 previous tournaments having several big charges fail like that it sucks.
Wolf T4:
He didn't have much help with cards. Here he IMO did his biggest mistake and sent terminators toward the evil suns along the wolverines. Too much stuff there on flank with only one measily objective which isn't even being cleared with that(grots have it). Grey hunters moved toward center. Termies and long fang squad shot at evil suns killing them in droves(can't be too safe eh?). Termies charged(he needed to use CP reroll. I pointed out tactical hint for future that in cases like this also charge the weak unit closer(grots in objective in this case) to give backup target if the prime target fails) as did wolverines. Well to make story short that's entire unit wiped off before they got to strike...
Orks T4:
Another defend around that grey hunter squad. Well goffs moved around there but due to long distance(no warboss for advance and assault. Idiot sacrificing warboss for nothing) only 10 got into combat. But 40 S5 attacks was enough anyway. On left I put grot wall front of termies and wolverines basically stopping them in place. Tank bustas, badruk and SAG all combined to kill I think 4 terminators. Well SAG TRIED. Got very respectable 4 S9 attacks. Then failed to hit anything....
With this opponent suggested calling it off. We checked vp's and found out I was comfortably 12-5 lead. Neither had much damage potential left anymore. His termies and wolverines would be scything through 10 grot units at a time, goffs would be struggling to reach anything worthwhile, I had several grots units still to hold objectives. Yeah good time to call it off. Though maybe we should have checked what cards he would get. If they would be awesome like 3 easy 2 vp ones(not sure what he could get for that but who knows...2 times defend same place that's off the reach for me and something else maybe) and it could be race.
Time to build me some deff dreads, the question is what to put on their arms? I'm not using the GW models and with the chassis I'm looting It would be easier to build at least 2 shooty weapons each, but I'm sure I can find a way to go all stabby all the time if that's really what they need.
Is there any benefit to mixing weapon types, either on a single dredd (2 klaws 2 rokkits?) or within a wing of 3 (one all-stabby, one all-shooty, and one mixed?)?
Coh Magnussen wrote: Time to build me some deff dreads, the question is what to put on their arms? I'm not using the GW models and with the chassis I'm looting It would be easier to build at least 2 shooty weapons each, but I'm sure I can find a way to go all stabby all the time if that's really what they need.
Is there any benefit to mixing weapon types, either on a single dredd (2 klaws 2 rokkits?) or within a wing of 3 (one all-stabby, one all-shooty, and one mixed?)?
thanks!
They're bad shots, so I'm not convinced shooty is a good option, even if you were already e.g. going Bad Moons Clan or using some strategem with shooty bonuses. (Although I know someone who has great fun with a 4 Kustom Mega-blasta dredd.)
Most players I've seen run them either 2 klaws and 2 saws, or 2 klaws and 1 saw and 1 skorcha (to help against tarpitting by hordes, and it autohits).
Coh Magnussen wrote: Time to build me some deff dreads, the question is what to put on their arms? I'm not using the GW models and with the chassis I'm looting It would be easier to build at least 2 shooty weapons each, but I'm sure I can find a way to go all stabby all the time if that's really what they need.
Is there any benefit to mixing weapon types, either on a single dredd (2 klaws 2 rokkits?) or within a wing of 3 (one all-stabby, one all-shooty, and one mixed?)?
thanks!
Pretty much only shooty ones worth a damn would be dethskull ones with 2-4 megablastas. With 2-3 being sweet spot likely. You have only 1 reroll so 4 isn't that useful plus with at least 1 klaw you get 3 good cc attacks vs 2 duh ones.
Most efficient is evil sun ones with 4 ccw ones though. Pair of them in ds can be nice way to remove tough targets
Unfortunatly dreads are kinda monobuild. Only real variance is the 4th klaw, or a skorcha.
It might have been a good shooty platform if the klaws were ~5pts more and the base cost of the dread dropped ~5pts respectively. Klaws are oddly cheap for how mean they are, but the guns arent much cheaper for more of an insult than a shooting attack.
Deffdredd toting 4 bigshootas for something silly like 50pts might have been worth it but thats not the case.
That being said, they arent bad. One of the bigger things about the 8th codex that excites me is WALKERS ARE GOOD AGAIN or atleast good enough to not be a hindrance.
My favorite loadout for deff dreads is full CC, either 4 klaws or 3-2 klaws and 1-2 saws. Shooting isn't rewarding with BS5+ even with a re-roll. And a skorcha is 17 points, definitely too much for a weapon that can't even fire in first turn.
In my experience deff dreads rarely survive their first turn. People don't like having murder-bots in their backfield and all melta guns, krak grenades and other odd anti-tank weapons will be in range. A skorcha is just paying 7 points to lose an attack.
Jidmah wrote: In my experience deff dreads rarely survive their first turn. People don't like having murder-bots in their backfield and all melta guns, krak grenades and other odd anti-tank weapons will be in range. A skorcha is just paying 7 points to lose an attack.
I agree, that's why I'd only play at their cheapest loadout, which is the full CC set up and only deployed by tellyporta.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: For the record with 2 KMB in death skull you have roughly 70% chance of scoring at least 1 hit. With 3 you are looking at 80% chance.
True, but does a single KMB hit worth 90ish points?
tneva82 wrote: For the record with 2 KMB in death skull you have roughly 70% chance of scoring at least 1 hit. With 3 you are looking at 80% chance.
True, but does a single KMB hit worth 90ish points?
That's another thing. Though keep in mind you aren't paying just for that but also the 3-4 h2h attacks. Of course if you are just planning of sitting back shooting it's never going to work out. For that you take dedicated shooty units. Here we are talking about unit that has both h2h and shooty potential so you should be aiming to use both.
Hi all. I know this has probably been answered before but I just can’t find it. When do lootas declare the unit they target? Before number of shots is generated or after?
Thanks
Hogiebear wrote: Hi all. I know this has probably been answered before but I just can’t find it. When do lootas declare the unit they target? Before number of shots is generated or after?
Thanks
After. Also keep in mind in similar note if you fire again with bad moon strategem shots stay the same.
Do you mean that if I use the bad moons strat I have to keep the same target and I can’t pick a new one?
Thanks
No i mean if you got 1 for shots it's 1 when shooting with strategem and if you rolled 3 you get 3 per loota. Target can be same and remember you can split targets as well.
Typically when a unit rolls for number of shots they roll per model per attack.
Lootas are the oddball, for some reason their weapon is still the way it was before random shots were common. They roll a single die and it stays for the shooting phase. So if they roll a 3 and you use the Bad Moonz trait, they still shoot 3 shots each.
Its great that the timing is AFTER you know what that result is, so no wasting cp on a 1 shot....
Am I mistaken or do we have to declare More Dakka before rolling for the number of hits though? I never play Badmoonz, but I wanted to try more Dakka a few times and the way I read it that one is declared before the number of shots is decided.
Castozor wrote: Am I mistaken or do we have to declare More Dakka before rolling for the number of hits though? I never play Badmoonz, but I wanted to try more Dakka a few times and the way I read it that one is declared before the number of shots is decided.
Technically yes.
More Dakka is before they shoot, the D3 for Loota guns is "when it fires" so you could sort of argue theyre the same timing (both are "before you actually roll to hit") but since its not the same wording its not the same timing. However if you pop the Bad Moonz one to fire twice you already know what the number of shots are so you could fire at something w/o negatives and if you get a 3 then burn the CP to More Dakka the other target with the negatives (since they arent bound to firing at the same thing)
Thanks for the answer, but it leads me to something else. Are you suggesting More Dakka is only worth it when firing at hard to hit targets? So far I've been using it to sqeeuze out more shots with the 5's rather than using it to boost my BS.
Castozor wrote: Thanks for the answer, but it leads me to something else. Are you suggesting More Dakka is only worth it when firing at hard to hit targets? So far I've been using it to sqeeuze out more shots with the 5's rather than using it to boost my BS.
Well if you are hitting on 5+ that will result in 16% more hits in average so question is do you feel 16% hits is worth 2 CP? I would say not always. Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes less so.
For me the big thing about that is enabling them to be da jumped around to ensure I have LOS. We have enough LOS blocking that it's fairly trivial to ensure opponent doesn't get LOS to key units without moving. Does make grot screens bit trickier which is why I use often 2x30+10 grots as minimum.
Rismonite wrote: Don't let the glass 16% full crowd fool you.. Moar dakka! adds 100% more extra shots to your results.
But only 16% hits. 15 bad moon lootas go from average 13.935 hits to 16.2037 hits with more dakka. From 16,2553 to 18.9 if you always use command reroll to reroll 1 on number of shots(which bumps average shots from 2 to 2.333).
So there you are looking at around 2 hits more. Is that worth 2 CP?
Using Moar Dakka on stationary Lootaz ain't really optimal. Using it on mobile Lootaz is great though. That said, it's pretty easy to get 15+ CP, and most games are settled by T3, so using it every turn probably ain't gonna hurt ya.
flandarz wrote: Using Moar Dakka on stationary Lootaz ain't really optimal. Using it on mobile Lootaz is great though. That said, it's pretty easy to get 15+ CP, and most games are settled by T3, so using it every turn probably ain't gonna hurt ya.
My point. Yes sometimes there's target that you really, really, REALLY need to die and normally odds are tight enough it's worth it because overkilling target is better than failing. However these should be considered case by case and not just automatically used if you would be hitting on 5+ anyway. Now if you move(and I do that a lot) it's obviously lot bigger as it more than doubles your firepower when you would be hitting on 6...
But even with 18CP orks run out CP REAL fast. You often have 2-6 CP go to deepstrikes and lootas eat 3.33 CP per turn generally(2 for shooting again, 1 for grot shield, 1 to reroll shots 1/3 of times) so 5.33 with more dakka. If you are looking at using more command point rerolls, endless tide, fight again...Well I often run 18 CP and am out after 2 turns without even endless tide! And I have started to limit deep strike strategems to max 1...
I just might want to shoot twice in T3 as well you know Or even have CP for grot screen to keep them alive for T3...
think im going to give bad moonz bikers a try. Apparently i have 29 bikers lol (30th is a bikerboss conversion). Gotta use them from time to time. My thought process being they fire a LOT of shots so badmoonz rerolls might be pretty dope. Wonder if im fielding that many bikers (2x12+boss) if i should bother with the painboy on bike....
How big of a disadvantage would a base bigger than 60mm be on a deff dredd? One of my dredd-chassis will fit on a 60mm with the feet hanging off (reminiscent of a boy on a 25), but the hips are too wide on the other and i can't get both feet on the base at the same time. I'm debating whether to put him in a "stomping" pose where he's really only standing on one foot anyways, or putting him on an oval base that's more like 80x60.
I'd really like to run them up the board with a deff-killa, but it sounds like tellyporta is the only really viable delivery system.
All I'm saying is that, generally, by the time T3 rolls around you already have a good idea as to whether you've lost or won, and no amount of "banked" CP is gonna change the outcome. Course, there's outlier where the outcome is still up in the air when T5 comes up, but I'd say 80% of the time the game is decided by T3.
Vineheart01 wrote: think im going to give bad moonz bikers a try.
Apparently i have 29 bikers lol (30th is a bikerboss conversion). Gotta use them from time to time. My thought process being they fire a LOT of shots so badmoonz rerolls might be pretty dope.
Wonder if im fielding that many bikers (2x12+boss) if i should bother with the painboy on bike....
been thinking the same. They podtentially do a great job at clearing out screens and deleting units when you want to dump CP into them. I would in general forget the painboy.
flandarz wrote: All I'm saying is that, generally, by the time T3 rolls around you already have a good idea as to whether you've lost or won, and no amount of "banked" CP is gonna change the outcome. Course, there's outlier where the outcome is still up in the air when T5 comes up, but I'd say 80% of the time the game is decided by T3.
Depends lot on enviroment you play. Now with T1 deep strikes out and tournaments finally starting put enough LOS blocking that you won't be seeing entire opponent army(and def not his key units) T1 impact is Less. Last time I faced Ultramarines all I could do T1 besides moving around was shoot devastators(lootas took care of most, smasha guns rest) and da jump boyz to try to clear scouts(failed due to charge running short). Opponent couldn't do much more than that T1 either.
Impact of T1 is getting less and less as huge LOS blocking walls are springing around.
Vineheart01 wrote: think im going to give bad moonz bikers a try. Apparently i have 29 bikers lol (30th is a bikerboss conversion). Gotta use them from time to time. My thought process being they fire a LOT of shots so badmoonz rerolls might be pretty dope. Wonder if im fielding that many bikers (2x12+boss) if i should bother with the painboy on bike....
been thinking the same. They podtentially do a great job at clearing out screens and deleting units when you want to dump CP into them. I would in general forget the painboy.
Right.
They lack the 20+ extra hit so theyre still weaker than sluggaboyz but tbh i rarely ever get 20+ boyz in melee anyway, usually overwatch causes enough damage to dip into 19.
Its 289pts for 11 Warbikers + Nob w/ PK biker. One thing i keep forgetting is warbikers have 2x dakkaguns now not a reroll so theyre firing 72 S5 shots with bad moonz reroll lol. And the speed to not care about the short-ish range. 79pts more than 30 shoota boyz = 4+ armor, +1T, -5 wounds, +1S gun, +1A, 12 more shots. On paper that sounds legit, but if you face someone that has a lot of 2damage guns....ugh...which is why i was contemplating the painboy since he could somewhat prevent that. 2W models really arent that great imo.
Capital problem im having building a list with them is what HQs to field. Weirdboyz would have to ride in a trukk to be of any use and odds are the timing on disembark would prevent them from warpath/fists of gorking the bikers/warboss anyway, and being the sole vehicle it would get popped instantly (well, sole vehicle that can be shot, since Wartrike is a character)
Only own 1 boss on bike and 1 wartrike. Footboss feels redundant, probably still need a weirdboy for da jumping shoota boyz around, but the 4th...i doubt another weirdboy would do anything but not sure what else to use lol
True. I could easily convert a random biker to a KFF Biker. Big Meks really arent all that large so they dont require a fancy big bike like a boss does lol Really all i need is some kind of canister with a bunch of wires going to emitters on multiple sticks poking out the back. Last time i kitbashed a kff i used a bunch of grotprod ends on toothpicks lol
As someone who runs a lo of bikers I can tell you that plasma is just a nightmare. The amount of damage a full plasma loadout on a IG tank commander did to my bikes and after that, buggies, is just insane.
Why the hell did a, tank commanders & b, plasma drop in CA? So yeah, a KFF is probably a really good bet
Following up on bikes: Yeah, we just melt too easily. Consider that a squad like 15 Lootas is going to kill, on average, 5 bikes in one shooting phase, 6 bikes if they're Bad Moons lootas. With a Kustom Force Field, you'll lose three bikes to five Hellblasters, without one you'll lose five.
2 damage weapons are just too common and too cheap for bikes to be consistently viable.
They lack the 20+ extra hit so theyre still weaker than sluggaboyz but tbh i rarely ever get 20+ boyz in melee anyway, usually overwatch causes enough damage to dip into 19.
What overwatch regularly kills 11 orks anyway? You don't take orks in units less than 30. Well except maybe deathskulls with 2 rokkits(basic and nob) to spam rerollable rokkits.
Not so much causes 11 wounds in overwatch but overwatch causes the remainder to break that 11 threshold, if i wasnt already there to begin with.
Theres about 6 ork players in my area and 4 of them are green tiders. People expect numbers not tough things so my wall of walkers i usually run pisses people off lol Prior to Grotshields i ran 2x30 shootas and a 30 of sluggas for troops, since i had no real use for CP yet never bothered with grots. Post-codex i cut the sluggas since i play bad moonz anyway and got grots everywhere filling slots. Those two shoota units tend to die pretty quick for me. Rest of my list...not so much... Most of the people in my are are semi-competitive at best. Part of the reason i dont feel bad running less optimal stuff because i dont expect optimal pwnface lists.
I think I'm gonna re-visit the more stormboy heavy lists. Maybe 2x30 man squads to go along with a da jumped boy squad for a hopeful mass assault turn 1. Just seems like waiting until turn 2 for your main assault strike isn't going to be very viable for much longer with all the power creep.
I run 2x30 man Stormboyz with a Da Jumped 30 man unit of boys. All fly up the table turn one with a Warboss on bike for support and the damage it causes my opponents is amazing. But what I find even better is that I pin my opponent pretty much in their deployment zone until at least turn 3/4 leaving me to collect vp
flaming tadpole wrote: I think I'm gonna re-visit the more stormboy heavy lists. Maybe 2x30 man squads to go along with a da jumped boy squad for a hopeful mass assault turn 1. Just seems like waiting until turn 2 for your main assault strike isn't going to be very viable for much longer with all the power creep.
Well here there's so much LOS blocking T1 isn't as deadly anymore.
Also here we have no bike bosses so short of kongo lines(deluting power of charge) no T1 assault chance whatsoever without advance+charge.
As someone who runs many of them often I can tell you that Warbikes are still overcosted for what they offer the army and there are many units in our codex that do their job better. Boys and Stormboys immediately spring to mind. Remember they can’t enter buildings, go up stairs, they’re not obsec, their shooting has no AP and many stratagems won’t help them. They also cost more than 3 Boyz who can be jumped wherever you need them.
T5, 4+ save is a trap unless you field a ton of high toughness, 4+ save units and that in itself is a bad idea with the prevalence of high str, -AP weaponry.
The one thing they do offer is the potential to lock a knight in cqc and as Evil Sunz they are rapid. Not a good choice though, not by a long shot. They’re infinitely better than Nob Bikers.
Vineheart01 wrote: True. I could easily convert a random biker to a KFF Biker. Big Meks really arent all that large so they dont require a fancy big bike like a boss does lol Really all i need is some kind of canister with a bunch of wires going to emitters on multiple sticks poking out the back. Last time i kitbashed a kff i used a bunch of grotprod ends on toothpicks lol
Actually, 5++ is only slightly better than 6+++ on a 2w model vs ap3 d2 weapons. But if the weapons are ap2 and worse, a painboy edges it out. I'd prefer a painboy simply because there's quite a lot of ap1 around.
AP-3 means you don't get a save, so there is a 19.44% chance to not die from a single plasma shot if you have a pain boy nearby.
A KFF has a 33.33% chance to save both wounds.
Against AP-2, bikers have a 32.87% chance to save one or two wounds, but that is still worse than the 33.33% chance to save both since you still lose more models on average.
Why not take a both KFF mek and Painboy on bike. If your not trying to optimize and want to take all bike then this would still be fun. I mean if your taking a lot of bikes anyway then why the hell not.
flaming tadpole wrote: I think I'm gonna re-visit the more stormboy heavy lists. Maybe 2x30 man squads to go along with a da jumped boy squad for a hopeful mass assault turn 1. Just seems like waiting until turn 2 for your main assault strike isn't going to be very viable for much longer with all the power creep.
Well here there's so much LOS blocking T1 isn't as deadly anymore.
Also here we have no bike bosses so short of kongo lines(deluting power of charge) no T1 assault chance whatsoever without advance+charge.
flandarz wrote: I just feel like Painboyz became a bit redundant after the Snakebitez Kultur.
Doesn't help that they went up in price either. They're really more for healing weird boys who peril now, which is also questionable since for their price you can just take another one.
It really makes you wonder when the Ork codex was written. It's strange that they went up and I don't know if that was a reaction to some ancient meta of green tide + painboyz that ran rampant like 12/15/18 months ago.
The reason why I think our codex was written a while ago is mostly based on Ghaz though. He went up like 30 points and a month later when CA came out basically every named character instead dropped to almost laughably auto-take prices. It just seems so juxtaposed
Ya the Ghazzy thing was probably the biggest insult in the new codex for me. We went from hearing all these rumors that they were making a new Ghaz model and giving him primarch stats to actually we didn't do anything at all so you guys are stuck with his crappy model and even crappier stats and on top of that lets make him more expensive too!
Has to do with the time frame in which the ork codex was releaseed. I think they stated when the IG codex dropped that they wont be touching points or rules in FAQs still 6 months after a codex has been out. So sit tight.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also. You think I have to leave that roof bit off of a BW for it to count as open topped?
There is not direct connection between 'ard case and the roof bit.
It's a nice way to clarify which wagons are open topped and which aren't, but by no means necessary.
For example, you can have an open topped battlewagon with klaw, 4 big shootas and a killkannon. You cannot represent that with the official model without putting the roof on.
Just make sure your opponent can identify which wagon has which upgrades easily.
Alright boyz, just got back from a tournament and da orkz won best general.
The rough list is
Evil Sunz Battalion
Warboss on warbike with relic klaw (extra damage WL trait)
Warboss on foot with BC
30 boyz 30 Boyz 11 Boyz
2x Bonecrusha
Evil Sunz Battalion
Weirdboy (Da Jump) Big Mek relic SAG (Dread Waagh upgrade)
30 boyz 12 Boyz 10 grotz
Bad moonz battalion
WEirdboyz x2 (Fist, Warpath)
grotz x 10 Grotz x 10 Grotz x 10
Lootas x 10 Lootas x 10
Played Tau game 1, he brought a bunch of infantry and some specialized unitz. I got first turn and proceeded to group my lootas up, dakka x3 on 5s and shoot again strat. I wiped out 3 units of his infantry and a Broadside. My Big Mek fired and killed another broadside and fired a second time and finished off the last one (10 shots at S7 was disgustingly good).
I jumped a unit of boyz and successfully assaulted his infantry and specialized infantry and basically the game was over turn 1.
Game 2 I played Eldar, he got first turn and wiped out my grotz and lootas but I Beta striked with Jumped boyz and Bonecrushas and killed his entire backfield and won the game by turn 3
Game 3 I played an IG Gunline and we ran out of time on turn 5 and had to sim the turn. Unfortunate because I had his entire army on the run and he had 2 Tank Commanders left and that was basically it. I meanwhile still had both warbosses, 60 boyz and both Bonecrushas as well as all 3 Weirdboyz.
Overall, I was very skeptical of the loota bomb but after this tournament I am convinced its going to be amazing. However, having played a few rounds without CP, the loota bomb by itself is both useless and easy to destroy. So if you don't get your points back with it in the first 2-3 rounds you are fethed.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: Why not take a both KFF mek and Painboy on bike. If your not trying to optimize and want to take all bike then this would still be fun. I mean if your taking a lot of bikes anyway then why the hell not.
Technically i probably should run both, theyre each ~100pts and the painboy is an added layer of protection rather than just a better one.
My main beef with it is the mandatory pk. Painboys never hit anything for me. 3 attacks hitting on 4s blows, not to mention the moment hes able to swing everyone dogpiles on him lol (KFF too)
Jidmah wrote: There is not direct connection between 'ard case and the roof bit.
It's a nice way to clarify which wagons are open topped and which aren't, but by no means necessary.
For example, you can have an open topped battlewagon with klaw, 4 big shootas and a killkannon. You cannot represent that with the official model without putting the roof on.
Just make sure your opponent can identify which wagon has which upgrades easily.
Yes, and to add confusion, the BW hull has separate front and rear roof sections, and the big turret mount (which looks armoured) can be added to either roof section. That's great for modelling diversity, especially as most options can be done without gluing either roof section and so can be changed from one game to the next, but not great for ork players or their opponents trying to identify vehicles on the table.
The sensible thing to do is to be consistent with how you represent upgrades on all your BWs, and tell your opponent if it's at all non-obvious.
Can the Chinork Warkopta's 'Scoutin' ahead' rule be used in the first turn; or does it count as reinforcements as per the Tactical Reserves from chapter approved?
Loaded with tankbustas it would be a fearsome unit to place in between the enemies lines. But I am not sure if I want to wait for turn two to do so.
Technically i probably should run both, theyre each ~100pts and the painboy is an added layer of protection rather than just a better one.
My main beef with it is the mandatory pk. Painboys never hit anything for me. 3 attacks hitting on 4s blows, not to mention the moment hes able to swing everyone dogpiles on him lol (KFF too)
I think Painboys have 4 attacks IIFC. Hitting on 4s isn't ideal but the relic klaw can help mitigate the problem.
I wouldn't bother taking him on a bike though, he's way too expensive and can't heal a character if he rides further than 5 inches.
Singleton Mosby wrote: Can the Chinork Warkopta's 'Scoutin' ahead' rule be used in the first turn; or does it count as reinforcements as per the Tactical Reserves from chapter approved?
Loaded with tankbustas it would be a fearsome unit to place in between the enemies lines. But I am not sure if I want to wait for turn two to do so.
Does it start on board after deployment? No? Then it's reinforcement. Nothing that doesn't start on board during deployment and isn't in transport can come to the board on T1. Regardless of is it terminator teleport, grey hunters outflanking or warkopta's scouting ahead.
Put them on evil sunz and you have 24" advancing platform though. IF that doesn't reach where you wish then on what 10'x6' boards you are playing on
acme2468 wrote: Uh what? Where have they changed cost of war boss on bike?
Chapter Approved, it's a book that GW has promised to supply us with from time to time to keep something resembling balance in our game. Like updates to a video game.
acme2468 wrote: Uh what? Where have they changed cost of war boss on bike?
Chapter Approved, it's a book that GW has promised to supply us with from time to time to keep something resembling balance in our game. Like updates to a video game.
I think he's asking where in the CAFAQ does it say the bikerboss went up in points, which unless I'm completely blind, he didn't.
acme2468 wrote: Uh what? Where have they changed cost of war boss on bike?
Chapter Approved, it's a book that GW has promised to supply us with from time to time to keep something resembling balance in our game. Like updates to a video game.
I think he's asking where in the CAFAQ does it say the bikerboss went up in points, which unless I'm completely blind, he didn't.
AP-3 means you don't get a save, so there is a 19.44% chance to not die from a single plasma shot if you have a pain boy nearby.
A KFF has a 33.33% chance to save both wounds.
Against AP-2, bikers have a 32.87% chance to save one or two wounds, but that is still worse than the 33.33% chance to save both since you still lose more models on average.
It's 30.55% to save at least one wound - not 19.44. Of course, higher damage weapons get this chance lower. So, it mostly depends on what you face. But i honestly see ap1 and plasma most often. Not even speaking of mortal wounds. Thus, a painboy is generally speaking better for durability. He is also slightly better as a character. The drawback is that he's not hq.
AP-3 means you don't get a save, so there is a 19.44% chance to not die from a single plasma shot if you have a pain boy nearby.
A KFF has a 33.33% chance to save both wounds.
Against AP-2, bikers have a 32.87% chance to save one or two wounds, but that is still worse than the 33.33% chance to save both since you still lose more models on average.
It's 30.55% to save at least one wound - not 19.44. Of course, higher damage weapons get this chance lower. So, it mostly depends on what you face. But i honestly see ap1 and plasma most often. Not even speaking of mortal wounds. Thus, a painboy is generally speaking better for durability. He is also slightly better as a character. The drawback is that he's not hq.
Or you could be like me and just not take either Its been my experience that everyone expects us to take painboyz and Big Mekz with KFFs. My last tournament, one of my opponents even had an IG (Mordian?) hit squad that can target characters and was extremely pissed when I told him I didn't have any Painboyz/KFF Big Mekz and he would be forced to get in range of my long range Big Mek with SAG or to attempt to pick off my warboss on warbike who was way to quick to be targeted by 24' range plasma guns.
literally only snipers ive come across is Harliquin related and his luck with them are hilariously bad. My local group is weird lol. Part of me is annoyed orks dont have character snipers unless we are silly enough to put a particular kulture warlord trait on a SAG, but then again...ork snipers? wat? We dont shoot 1-2 highly accurate shots, we shoot walls of dakka!
Vineheart01 wrote: literally only snipers ive come across is Harliquin related and his luck with them are hilariously bad.
My local group is weird lol. Part of me is annoyed orks dont have character snipers unless we are silly enough to put a particular kulture warlord trait on a SAG, but then again...ork snipers? wat?
We dont shoot 1-2 highly accurate shots, we shoot walls of dakka!
The Celestial Lions would like a word or six with you about that.
Vineheart01 wrote: literally only snipers ive come across is Harliquin related and his luck with them are hilariously bad.
My local group is weird lol. Part of me is annoyed orks dont have character snipers unless we are silly enough to put a particular kulture warlord trait on a SAG, but then again...ork snipers? wat?
We dont shoot 1-2 highly accurate shots, we shoot walls of dakka!
I always wished they gave kommandos the option to take snipers. Even if they can't hit crap would be still be fairly useful for camping objectives and stuff.
Vineheart01 wrote: literally only snipers ive come across is Harliquin related and his luck with them are hilariously bad.
My local group is weird lol. Part of me is annoyed orks dont have character snipers unless we are silly enough to put a particular kulture warlord trait on a SAG, but then again...ork snipers? wat?
We dont shoot 1-2 highly accurate shots, we shoot walls of dakka!
I always wished they gave kommandos the option to take snipers. Even if they can't hit crap would be still be fairly useful for camping objectives and stuff.
Yep. I miss my 7th ed lobbas...cheapest snipers in the game.
I don't know, I'd much rather get grot sharpshootas than any sort of ork boy sniper. That was probably my number one wish for a new kit snuck in there after the buggies as a surprise. I didn't think that we'd get them but I would've been so happy. Just make them identical to IG ratlings (or very similar)
My dream in general is just to add a bit more meat to the grot range. Give us an option to take an 'eavy weapon team in each grot squad (or per 10). Those weapons could be: a lobba, a supa shoota, a rokkit launcha. Give the platforms a special rule where they can't be fire if they moved. Suddenly we can get something out of those backline grot units.
Then again, I thought it was a real shame that grots don't get the kultur, almost all the kultur are multi-faceted. They could just signify that grots only get one of those bonuses. So maybe evil sunz grots don't get the penalty for advancing and shooting assault weapons and nothing else.
Vineheart01 wrote: literally only snipers ive come across is Harliquin related and his luck with them are hilariously bad.
My local group is weird lol. Part of me is annoyed orks dont have character snipers unless we are silly enough to put a particular kulture warlord trait on a SAG, but then again...ork snipers? wat?
We dont shoot 1-2 highly accurate shots, we shoot walls of dakka!
There is a better alternative. A death skull biker mek with dual KMblastas. He can profit from the trait and surprise one or two people.
Vineheart01 wrote: literally only snipers ive come across is Harliquin related and his luck with them are hilariously bad.
My local group is weird lol. Part of me is annoyed orks dont have character snipers unless we are silly enough to put a particular kulture warlord trait on a SAG, but then again...ork snipers? wat?
We dont shoot 1-2 highly accurate shots, we shoot walls of dakka!
There is a better alternative. A death skull biker mek with dual KMblastas. He can profit from the trait and surprise one or two people.
Bike one with relig SAG and kmblasta? Albeit extra 16 pts and you'll be hitting on 6 with SAG if you have to move but 2d6 shots. More hits than KM anyway.
Vineheart01 wrote: literally only snipers ive come across is Harliquin related and his luck with them are hilariously bad.
My local group is weird lol. Part of me is annoyed orks dont have character snipers unless we are silly enough to put a particular kulture warlord trait on a SAG, but then again...ork snipers? wat?
We dont shoot 1-2 highly accurate shots, we shoot walls of dakka!
There is a better alternative. A death skull biker mek with dual KMblastas. He can profit from the trait and surprise one or two people.
Bike one with relig SAG and kmblasta? Albeit extra 16 pts and you'll be hitting on 6 with SAG if you have to move but 2d6 shots. More hits than KM anyway.
16pts and 2CPs...(as I am assuming it would be the second relic, the kill klaw is toooo good to let it go).
I think the consensus is having units of 20 sluggas / 10 shootas and remove the shootas first when taking casualties. Reasoning is that you rarely have more than 20 boyz in combat, so the missing attack doesn't hurt, while gaining some shooting.
For bad moons, shoota boyz are a great tool to remove screens, and some people prefer using shoota boyz as jump targets since they still do some damage even if they fail their charge.
Jidmah wrote: I think the consensus is having units of 20 sluggas / 10 shootas and remove the shootas first when taking casualties. Reasoning is that you rarely have more than 20 boyz in combat, so the missing attack doesn't hurt, while gaining some shooting.
For bad moons, shoota boyz are a great tool to remove screens, and some people prefer using shoota boyz as jump targets since they still do some damage even if they fail their charge.
I\m on that camp. Also it allows you to actually shoot with more ease during deep strike. You don't neccessarily WANT to shoot at the target you are about to charge least he pull models closest making your 9" charge into 10" or more...Shootas can shoot chaff elsewhere. Every little wound helps.
And bad moon shoota unit can try to da jump and deal with chaff by shooting at one direction, charge another. If that 58% charge succeed you could clear chaff more than by just choppas. It's not just the 2 shots but 18" that's handy. 12" you might not even reach with all.
Yeah a 20/10 split of sluggas & shootas is basically as efficient as one can make a boyz unit IMO. A full shoota unit is pretty damn effective as a street cleaner when used in the manner tneva mentioned above though.
Boyz play pretty different depending on which kultur you're using though, so unit composition is largely depending on that
We'll see how bikes work out if they get any changes in the next FAQ (with lower point costs on SM bikes and the new beta bolter rule ork bikes need some love)
Technically i probably should run both, theyre each ~100pts and the painboy is an added layer of protection rather than just a better one.
My main beef with it is the mandatory pk. Painboys never hit anything for me. 3 attacks hitting on 4s blows, not to mention the moment hes able to swing everyone dogpiles on him lol (KFF too)
I think Painboys have 4 attacks IIFC. Hitting on 4s isn't ideal but the relic klaw can help mitigate the problem.
I wouldn't bother taking him on a bike though, he's way too expensive and can't heal a character if he rides further than 5 inches.
I rarely have this issue with the biker painboy. His fnp works fine. If I got first there is usually no one to heal and he is able to cross the board regardless and get in range of the da jumped boy squad for more fnp goodness. If I go second I still can get fnp in any hits and might miss out healing a character but it’s still worth the mobility and toughness/wound increase.
Is there any point in orks using non-brigade/battalion detachments? Other than Command for the Super w/ Kulture anyway.
The insane difference in CP generation kinda steers me away from them. Why a Brigade is 5CP but a Spearhead is 1 is beyond me when most armies can fill a Brigade minimum for roughly the same price as a Spearhead minimum.
Im half tempted to try a full mechanized list, as in no boyz/grotz period. Only things "on foot" would be meks or tankbustas inside the vehicle. But that CP difference....
There is no reason to ever use the non Battalion/Brigade detachments for any reason, the CP swing is just too harsh. The SOLE reason to use a Spearhead detachment is if for some reason your Leman Russes MUST have Objsec.
Is there any point in orks using non-brigade/battalion detachments? Other than Command for the Super w/ Kulture anyway.
The insane difference in CP generation kinda steers me away from them. Why a Brigade is 5CP but a Spearhead is 1 is beyond me when most armies can fill a Brigade minimum for roughly the same price as a Spearhead minimum.
Im half tempted to try a full mechanized list, as in no boyz/grotz period. Only things "on foot" would be meks or tankbustas inside the vehicle. But that CP difference....
I always thought it was a matter of balancing HQ taxes. Will those extra weirdboys, warbosses and bigmeks be useful? Is it worth the 100pts spent on them. Does it throw your plans out or give away easy ITC mission points?
Just a shame our characters don't give out better passive buffs. I'd love if the regular mekboys were pointed up a bit and gave a re-roll of 1 to wound in shooting.
Would make more sense to add to the roll than reroll for orks imo.
But thats also stepping on imperial toes. I actually dont mind that our HQs arent buffbots, it means im not trying to keep my entire army in one bubble.
The only problem HQ wise is if you arent allowed index then their uses are limited, and its rough to justify a tactic if you have no HQs that also do that tactic. Weirdboyz are almost universally awesome but if youre in a speedfreak list they need a transport AND really wont do much other than Fists of Gork the trike/boss and smite.
If allowed index, i think our HQs are fine. Though i wouldnt mind a generic jumppack hq so we can have a boss guy go with stormboyz that arent goffs for once.
cody.d. wrote: Just a shame our characters don't give out better passive buffs. I'd love if the regular mekboys were pointed up a bit and gave a re-roll of 1 to wound in shooting.
GAAAAH! Please no more rerolls! Bad moons already was the thing I most dreaded about. Rerolls. 8th ed has too many rerolls. You roll tons of dice, then reroll tons and with orks not even much effect. Bad moon shoota mob fires. 60 dice. Rerolls 10 dice, gets extra 10 shots which results in 1-2 rerolls more. End result is you roll total of 81-82 shots...From one unit. Results about 26 hits and 4 dead space marines. Okay pretty nice but that's lots of dice rolling from one unit.
With lootas you are often literally shooting 100+ dice.
Wish GW would come up with buffs that aren't just rerolls. 8th ed takes more time per turn than I have ever had from any edition. Maybe 1st edition was even slower.
Rerolls are indeed the last thing this edition needs more of. Meks could've been given an ability where wound rolls (in some sort of aura) of unmodified 6's are resolved with an additional AP though.
Or an ability where they choose a vehicle with 6" and each dakkadakkadakka roll results in 2 extra shots instead of 1.
Or that you choose a vehicle within 6" and wound rolls of unmodified 6's are resolved with an additional damage.
Or that you choose a vehicle within 6" and you get to roll an additonal d6 and picking the highest when determining the amount of shots it gets on random amount of shots weapons
There are plenty of buffs that support characters could be handing out, I really wish they'd explore that a bit more
Vineheart01 wrote: Is there any point in orks using non-brigade/battalion detachments? Other than Command for the Super w/ Kulture anyway.
The insane difference in CP generation kinda steers me away from them. Why a Brigade is 5CP but a Spearhead is 1 is beyond me when most armies can fill a Brigade minimum for roughly the same price as a Spearhead minimum.
Im half tempted to try a full mechanized list, as in no boyz/grotz period. Only things "on foot" would be meks or tankbustas inside the vehicle. But that CP difference....
I'm running fully mechanized lists most of the time, just put some gretchin in there and you got your CP. Hiding them on objectives goes a long way towards winning games.
A list I have ran recently looked like this:
HQ Warboss on Bike
Deffkilla Wartrike
SAG Mek
6x 10 Gretchin
10 Nobz /w 5 BC and ammo runts
10 Nobz /w 5 BC and ammo runts
1 Mek with KMB and ammo runt
Sums up to 2000 points and looks and feels a lot like a Mad Max army. Works decent in my mono-codex meta, but don't expect to win tournament games with it.
Vineheart01 wrote: Is there any point in orks using non-brigade/battalion detachments? Other than Command for the Super w/ Kulture anyway.
The insane difference in CP generation kinda steers me away from them. Why a Brigade is 5CP but a Spearhead is 1 is beyond me when most armies can fill a Brigade minimum for roughly the same price as a Spearhead minimum.
Im half tempted to try a full mechanized list, as in no boyz/grotz period. Only things "on foot" would be meks or tankbustas inside the vehicle. But that CP difference....
I'm running fully mechanized lists most of the time, just put some gretchin in there and you got your CP. Hiding them on objectives goes a long way towards winning games.
A list I have ran recently looked like this:
HQ Warboss on Bike
Deffkilla Wartrike
SAG Mek
6x 10 Gretchin
10 Nobz /w 5 BC and ammo runts
10 Nobz /w 5 BC and ammo runts
1 Mek with KMB and ammo runt
Sums up to 2000 points and looks and feels a lot like a Mad Max army. Works decent in my mono-codex meta, but don't expect to win tournament games with it.
Mono Deffskullz right? I can spot a deffskull army when I see it.. you want dem rerolls right?
Freebootaz and Deffskullz are best Mono Kultur lists
Vineheart01 wrote: Is there any point in orks using non-brigade/battalion detachments? Other than Command for the Super w/ Kulture anyway.
The insane difference in CP generation kinda steers me away from them. Why a Brigade is 5CP but a Spearhead is 1 is beyond me when most armies can fill a Brigade minimum for roughly the same price as a Spearhead minimum.
Im half tempted to try a full mechanized list, as in no boyz/grotz period. Only things "on foot" would be meks or tankbustas inside the vehicle. But that CP difference....
I'm running fully mechanized lists most of the time, just put some gretchin in there and you got your CP. Hiding them on objectives goes a long way towards winning games.
A list I have ran recently looked like this:
HQ Warboss on Bike
Deffkilla Wartrike
SAG Mek
6x 10 Gretchin
10 Nobz /w 5 BC and ammo runts
10 Nobz /w 5 BC and ammo runts
1 Mek with KMB and ammo runt
Sums up to 2000 points and looks and feels a lot like a Mad Max army. Works decent in my mono-codex meta, but don't expect to win tournament games with it.
Mono Deffskullz right? I can spot a deffskull army when I see it.. you want dem rerolls right?
Freebootaz and Deffskullz are best Mono Kultur lists
Blood Axes actually. I'm in a weird group of people where we build our armies from a single codex and play them with the cultures they are painted as
If I could choose, deff skulls or evil suns would probably both work fine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: Why is SAG mek going in morkanaut where he can't shoot? Put him in safe location and shoot away.
There is a mek and a big mek in the list. The SAG sat on a ruin, with gretchin all over the place and the entire army racing towards the enemy lines it didn't get any trouble. You can probably replace him with a more useful HQ, I just like playing him.
The small mek jumped out turn 2 and repaired some wounds on the naut and later a buggy. He's basically just elite slot filler. As evil suns you can probably have him wear the redder armor.
Do you deepstrike anything in that list Jidmah? I'd be interested in playing a list like that except with some Deff Dreads as well. Any pointers on how your games generally go?
No deep strikes, I'm wasting most of my CP on protecting the bikes, ramming, looting destroyed vehicles or boss/trike fighting again after death or nobz fighting twice, more relics (klaw, finkin' cap, snazz trike) and the kult of speed detachment.
The two games I had with that list was a crushing win against harlequins and a close loss against sisters (couldn't stop St. Celestine from rampaging through my gretchin and taking my objective). It's fun to play - more fun than green tide anyways - but will probably fold like wet paper if your enemy list has something that must be removed ASAP - like a knight, helverines, a daemon primarch and so on.
This party starts turn 2, too late for any kind of really competitive gaming.
Vineheart01 wrote: Is there any point in orks using non-brigade/battalion detachments? Other than Command for the Super w/ Kulture anyway.
The insane difference in CP generation kinda steers me away from them. Why a Brigade is 5CP but a Spearhead is 1 is beyond me when most armies can fill a Brigade minimum for roughly the same price as a Spearhead minimum.
Im half tempted to try a full mechanized list, as in no boyz/grotz period. Only things "on foot" would be meks or tankbustas inside the vehicle. But that CP difference....
I often run an elite detachment with meganobz, painboy and kommandees. Helps save pts on an extra hq that i don't really need and 90 pt of grots. But that's for <= 1500 games. We run out of cp really fast. 2 to deepstrike manz, 3 to greentide, 3 to fight again and 1 just in case. Sure, some extra cp would be great but there's not always enough points for a batallion.
i dont even know how people can fill a battalion even at 2k.
I always feel like im bringing something i shouldnt be using because of the mandated 3 FA/Elite/Heavy/6Troop part. Or unable to use something i really want/need because then i cant get another to fill the slot requirement
Ive done it, but it felt like such a haphazard list....didnt even play with it because it felt so wonky lol
Vineheart01 wrote: i dont even know how people can fill a battalion even at 2k.
I always feel like im bringing something i shouldnt be using because of the mandated 3 FA/Elite/Heavy/6Troop part. Or unable to use something i really want/need because then i cant get another to fill the slot requirement
Ive done it, but it felt like such a haphazard list....didnt even play with it because it felt so wonky lol
You mean brigade. A battalion is 2HQs and 3 troops.
I bring a brigade at 1750, anything less than that I find that I'm really pushing it for those CPs, it's probably worth doing but I don't want to. FA I always fill since I play speed freeks but usually I only want 1-2 Elites and 2 Heavy support. Bringing extra mek gunz is easy but I don't like bringing orks that aren't in transports so unless I'm taking a gakload of Nobz then I find elites to be tough slots to fill. 6 groups of grots are okay but I really hate being "forced" to do it.
Derp yeah for some reason i get them backwards from time to time.
And yeah Elites are usually my problem. I only own 1 mek gun but i tend to run walkers alot, problem is when you run walkers you have no wagons so no nobz/tankbustas and who in their right flippin' mind would run bad moonz kommandos? lol
Minimeks can heal the walkers true but 1 hp per turn doesnt mean jack. Besides the walkers either arent even shot at or blow up anyway, cept the 'naut
Vineheart01 wrote: i dont even know how people can fill a battalion even at 2k.
I always feel like im bringing something i shouldnt be using because of the mandated 3 FA/Elite/Heavy/6Troop part. Or unable to use something i really want/need because then i cant get another to fill the slot requirement
Ive done it, but it felt like such a haphazard list....didnt even play with it because it felt so wonky lol
It depends on the clan actually. Deathskulls can field good ones since they can use cheap but effective elites and FA. Something like:
Big mek with SAG Warboss
Weirdboy
3x30 Boyz, each unit with a pk and 1 rokkit
3x10 Gretchins
2x Meks with KMB
Painboy
3x Deffkopta with KMB
3x3 Smasha gunz
It's just 1540 points with no useless units.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: Derp yeah for some reason i get them backwards from time to time.
And yeah Elites are usually my problem. I only own 1 mek gun but i tend to run walkers alot, problem is when you run walkers you have no wagons so no nobz/tankbustas and who in their right flippin' mind would run bad moonz kommandos? lol
Minimeks can heal the walkers true but 1 hp per turn doesnt mean jack. Besides the walkers either arent even shot at or blow up anyway, cept the 'naut
Mine are usually FA. Only 39 points koptas with KMB and the deathskull kultur seem to be fine in all the brigades I've tried. Min squads of stormboyz aren't that good, bikes and buggies are expensive. Koptas without the kultur bonus don't do much for their price. Elites are the second problem but tankbustas, kommandos, painboy and nobz do with all the kultures, while banner nob, meganobz and meks with KMB can also be good under the appropriate clan. Tankbustas can be deployed by tellyporta or screened by tons of gretchins, while bad moons kommandos aren't that good of course but bad moons can't really field effective brigades as their kultur is useful only on a few units. If you really want to be full bad moons those kommandos aren't even terrible though as a 40 points unit that arrives in deep strike to grab an objective or harass the enemy backline can always be useful.
Problem with 2x battallions is that more than 3 HQs are actually unneeded, even the 4th one usually looks like a tax. That's why most of the times I'd rather field a brigade than 2x battallions, unless I really want two different kultur bonuses to expolit.
2000 point tournament, must be a single Batallion no more, no less. How does it effect the meta, and which way should Orks go?
First thought was to do a proppa Goff green tide list :
Spoiler:
Ghazghull Thrakka
Weirdboy
Big Mek w/ KFF 24 grotz
24 grotz
30 boyz Nob + BC 30 boyz Nob + BC 30 boyz Nob + BC 30 boyz Nob + BC 15 lootas
3 Smasha gunz
Nob with Waaagh banner
Nob with Waaagh banner
15 Kommandoz
1998 Points
86 Power
8 Command points
The idea is that any high strength, multi-wound shots are wasted on single wound models (except for the Smashas, which are too good not to include). Tactiks are simple and orky, run forward and smash stuff wif choppaz.
Brigade requires 3 FA too. I think the cheapest FA is deffkopta w/ bigshoota, but is also hot garbage with said bigshoota.
Hence the problem i mentioned a moment ago about filling one. You are kinda forced to do two tactics or take a hefty tax in "useless units" to fill the brigade.
If youre going green tide, go double battalion. 2 less CP is worth not having units that dont support green tide. Dont discount weirdboyz, Da Jump and Warpath are disgusting on boyz.
barontuman wrote: 2000 point, must be a single Batallion tournament, no more, no less. How does it effect the meta, and which way should Orks go?
First thought was to do a proppa Goff green tide list :
Spoiler:
Ghazghull Thrakka
Weirdboy
Big Mek w/ KFF 24 grotz
24 grotz
30 boyz Nob + BC 30 boyz Nob + BC 30 boyz Nob + BC 30 boyz Nob + BC 15 lootas
3 Smasha gunz
Nob with Waaagh banner
Nob with Waaagh banner
15 Kommandoz
1998 Points
86 Power
8 Command points
The idea is that any high strength, multi-wound shots are wasted on single wound models (except for the Smashas, which are too good not to include). Tactiks are simple and orky, run forward and smash stuff wif choppaz.
Thoughts?
I'd drop the KFF for a second weirdboy. You want da jump, fists of gork and warpath so giving up on one power is already painful, two will be too much. Add a painboy instead. I'd also bring just one banner nob, as one will be enough for buffing all the footslogging dudes since you may want to teleport one mob per turn, and I'd field a couple of min squads of kommandos instead of a max one.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: Brigade requires 3 FA too. I think the cheapest FA is deffkopta w/ bigshoota, but is also hot garbage with said bigshoota.
It's actually the KMB version, 1pt cheaper than the twin big shoota one.
barontuman wrote: 2000 point, must be a single Batallion tournament, no more, no less. How does it effect the meta, and which way should Orks go?
First thought was to do a proppa Goff green tide list :
[spoiler]
Ghazghull Thrakka
Weirdboy
Big Mek w/ KFF 24 grotz
24 grotz
30 boyz Nob + BC 30 boyz Nob + BC 30 boyz Nob + BC 30 boyz Nob + BC 15 lootas
3 Smasha gunz
Nob with Waaagh banner
Nob with Waaagh banner
15 Kommandoz
1998 Points
86 Power
8 Command points
The idea is that any high strength, multi-wound shots are wasted on single wound models (except for the Smashas, which are too good not to include). Tactiks are simple and orky, run forward and smash stuff wif choppaz.
Thoughts?
I'd drop the KFF for a second weirdboy. You want da jump, fists of gork and warpath so giving up on one power is already painful, two will be too much. Add a painboy instead. I'd also bring just one banner nob, as one will be enough for buffing all the footslogging dudes since you may want to teleport one mob per turn, and I'd field a couple of min squads of kommandos instead of a max one.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: Brigade requires 3 FA too. I think the cheapest FA is deffkopta w/ bigshoota, but is also hot garbage with said bigshoota.
It's actually the KMB version, 1pt cheaper than the twin big shoota one.
I think 1 weirdboy is fine, you can always use the Warphead stratagem to get da jump, and fist of gork. I think you will find Warppath to be excessive, especially with Ghaz + the goffs trait. I do think you should add a painboy if you can (dropping 1 banner would do the trick).
I don't really see why you would want min squad of kommandos....
I think 1 weirdboy is fine, you can always use the Warphead stratagem to get da jump, and fist of gork. I think you will find Warppath to be excessive, especially with Ghaz + the goffs trait. I do think you should add a painboy if you can (dropping 1 banner would do the trick).
I don't really see why you would want min squad of kommandos....
Excessive? I like the sounds of that! Actually I'm worried that I'll only end up with 1/4 of the boyz after the first turn against some armies and having a few boyz with an excessive amount of attacks would be a good thing.
I also think the full squad of kommandoz is more likely to succeed. Otherwise they will both charge the same unit and both be destroyed by overwatch.
Having 2 weirdboyz would be nice, but the KFF will give me 1/3 more boyz in the assault, which is hard to argue with.
How will having only 1 Waaagh banner with only 6" range cover 120 boyz? One unit is easily 6" all by itself. Are you assuming they will be interleaved? That'll slow down the movement phase horribly, and thus possibly cost me the game or sportsmanship if I have to move them one by one.
Thanks everyone for the replies, and please keep them coming!
I struggle to keep boyz inside auras over the course of the game just in general, so I don't worry about it past the first turn. I also don't use waagh banners for that reason. So don't know the answer to your question.
Geemoney wrote: I struggle to keep boyz inside auras over the course of the game just in general, so I don't worry about it past the first turn. I also don't use waagh banners for that reason. So don't know the answer to your question.
Mostly, I'm wondering about the concept in general. Is 150 boyz boyz and 48 grotz going to be even vaguely competitive?
Any guesses as to what this does to the Meta? No Knights, right? Will other armies go more toward infantry, and as such make a horde army more or less viable?
Painboy/Boss aura is easy to keep in range because its not unit bound, its looking for models to apply it to a unit, not looking for an entire unit. Generally with that many boyz you might need multiple sources though. Might. Argument could be said that if your opponent ignores the ones the painboy/boss is around then they'll hit that much harder once they reach melee.
KFF aura is practically impossible to get more than 1 squad of boyz in, since the WHOLE UNIT has to be within 9" to get it. I usually flatout ignore KFFs with boyz now unless its my last squad or something.
Still dont get why the KFF is that way. To my knowledge its the ONLY rule that does that.
Units affected by a Waagh Banner don't need to be entirely within the aura to gain a benefit. The unit just has to have a single model within 6". If you place 4 30 Ork Mobz around it, it can benefit them all.
That said... You're probably not gonna have more than a Mob or two in CC close enough to all get the benefit anyway.
Vineheart01 wrote: Derp yeah for some reason i get them backwards from time to time.
And yeah Elites are usually my problem. I only own 1 mek gun but i tend to run walkers alot, problem is when you run walkers you have no wagons so no nobz/tankbustas and who in their right flippin' mind would run bad moonz kommandos? lol
Minimeks can heal the walkers true but 1 hp per turn doesnt mean jack. Besides the walkers either arent even shot at or blow up anyway, cept the 'naut
For elite 3x5 kommando's for objective grapping is popular combo.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: Pretty much unless you are playing tournament related rules, nobody cares if you use index stuff.
Spending money on models you can't use all the time or even majority time is not fun.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
barontuman wrote: 2000 point tournament, must be a single Batallion no more, no less. How does it effect the meta, and which way should Orks go?
Issue will be orks are rather CP hungry. More than IG(which generate surplus CP on their own anyway) and eldar.
That's why I'm not fan of random global restrictions in tournaments. They mean good but hurt some armies more than others. And generally the broken good armies are the ones that survive such restrictions. Max 1 of each non-troop unit? Hah. Broken armies often laugh at such restrictions.
PiñaColada wrote: Rerolls are indeed the last thing this edition needs more of. Meks could've been given an ability where wound rolls (in some sort of aura) of unmodified 6's are resolved with an additional AP though.
Or an ability where they choose a vehicle with 6" and each dakkadakkadakka roll results in 2 extra shots instead of 1.
Or that you choose a vehicle within 6" and wound rolls of unmodified 6's are resolved with an additional damage.
Or that you choose a vehicle within 6" and you get to roll an additonal d6 and picking the highest when determining the amount of shots it gets on random amount of shots weapons
There are plenty of buffs that support characters could be handing out, I really wish they'd explore that a bit more
All of them very valid ideas. I would argue that the rules made for the workshop are a tweak of what originaly the desgin team might been thinking the for the big mek. Then the piece of terrain came into and failed miserably to be meaningful.
Has anyone tried an airwing of either 3 wazbom blastajets or 2 of them and a dakkajet? I hate trying to fit things inside the 9" KFF bubble but getting 2 or 3 should make that a lot easier. Is it just a waste of points?
Because the wazboms themselves aren't bad, but they're not fantastic either looking at their datasheets. However I don't own even one so I'm just guessing. Other than the KFF, do they do work for you guys?
I mean I play speed freeks so the only thing I have in the backfield are some grots and a singular SAG big mek. The rest moves upfield (and should be able to keep up).
I basically want something that counteracts the plasma weapons just melting my bikes/buggies/bonebreakas. But my army has a footprint too large to fit inside a 9" bubble, however 2 of them might work. 3 easily would, is it worth the points though?
Instead of investing in protection like KFF's or painboys better just take more of everything you want to protect. That way you have more flexibilty. The Dakkajet is quite nice btw so that's not a loss to include in your army.
I get what you mean, but the amount of plasma spam I've had to endure post CA is starting to become annoying. Those 320-360 points that you're investing in wazboms could be spent elsewhere for getting more stuff but a 5++ on the entire army is pretty good when the normal save is a 4+. Also it's not like the planes have awful armaments.
The dakkajet I like, I already own one of those. But surely we have some players that are using/have used the wazboms post codex?
The Wazbom Blastajet seems pretty useable, ridiculous name aside, but you'll probably only get the benefit of it's KFF on turn one and then again in a later turn if it's alive and your vehicles are still bunched together as a result of it's high minimum move. A Big Mek on Warbike with KFF would serve your ground vehicles better but if Index isn't available to you a Da Jumping foot Mek might work but wouldn't be particularly great. The Wazbom's KFF seems better suited to protecting your vehicles on turn one or protecting a Flyer Wing although it can be difficult to keep three flyers close to each other for multiple turns.
Ultimately KFFs are awkward to get the most out of because they limit your movements so much and games are won or lost in the movement phase. Mostly I'lll only take them on Big Meks if I need a fifth or sixth HQ because you can 'only' have three Weirdboys and usually you only really need one Warboss.
Well I'm not using Index so the obvious alternative isn't an option. Normally I get the complaint about the wazbom KFF, they're too fast to really work, but since my entire army is zooming up the board I'm thinking it might just work, having two of them would mean that spacing on the board shouldn't be a real issue. I think I'll try it out at some point in the near future. Might be a disaster but I want to try and switch up my force every now and then
Question: If I have a unit of bikes that aren't wholly within either one of the wazboms KFFs but wholly within a KFF field if I'm allowed to count them both, is that allowed? Basically does multiple KFF fields count as different entities or are they all counted as a KFF? I'm guessing they won't overlap..
Logically speaking, of course it should work. But the wording on the KFF on the wazbom makes me uncertain..
"If this model is equipped with a kustom force feld, friendly ORK units have a 5+ invulnerable save against attacks made with ranged weapons while they are wholly within 9" of it."
I guess it depends on if the mean the plane or the KFF when they say "it". I don't know, I just don't want to accidentally cheat or anything
I don't really see why you would want min squad of kommandos....
I use kommandos mostly to appear in later turns and sit on an objective. Sometimes to harass some long range shooters. IMHO 15 8ppm orks with natural deep strike aren't worthy, unless maybe they're evil sunz and can charge after deep striking with very high odds.
I don't really see why you would want min squad of kommandos....
I use kommandos mostly to appear in later turns and sit on an objective. Sometimes to harass some long range shooters. IMHO 15 8ppm orks with natural deep strike aren't worthy, unless maybe they're evil sunz and can charge after deep striking with very high odds.
The 5 are more than able to hold empty objective. And not totally useless in combat. Ig inf squad? If you make the charge you will in average take objective from them while being cheap enough dealing 6 t4 wounds annoys opponent
PiñaColada wrote: Well I'm not using Index so the obvious alternative isn't an option. Normally I get the complaint about the wazbom KFF, they're too fast to really work, but since my entire army is zooming up the board I'm thinking it might just work, having two of them would mean that spacing on the board shouldn't be a real issue. I think I'll try it out at some point in the near future. Might be a disaster but I want to try and switch up my force every now and then
Question: If I have a unit of bikes that aren't wholly within either one of the wazboms KFFs but wholly within a KFF field if I'm allowed to count them both, is that allowed? Basically does multiple KFF fields count as different entities or are they all counted as a KFF? I'm guessing they won't overlap..
Pina are you charging T1 with those bikes? The KFF doesn't work in melee so if you're charging T1 you might not get much use out of the Wazzbomb compared to say, a standard KFFMA/Big Mek who can protect your bikers if you don't get first turn (and fill those HQ slots).
A better solution, I have found, if your concern is the unit you charge T1 leaves combat/gets wiped and your bikes get obliterated by the opponent's other units, is to take the Vigilus detachment and use the stratagem to consolidate d6. Get stuck into those unit that would try to kill you and deny them shooting.
Billagio wrote: Havnt really kept up the last few months. Is the 30 grots, 90 boyz 25 lootas list still the "meta" list?
If you want to do the Loota bomb I'd up the Grots to about 60. It seems the lists that can take the Lootas out turn one are perfectly capable knocking over 30 grots and then 25 Lootas. There is also some speculation that 25 Lootas still just isn't enough to take down Knights *shrug* I don't play knights.. no idea.
I've actually moved away from Loota Bombs. I still field 15, but I don't like putting all my eggs in one basket, so I've been fielding them alongside a half-dozen Smashas/Traktorz (2 to 1). 15 Lootas are easier to keep alive than 25, for some reason.
Billagio wrote: Havnt really kept up the last few months. Is the 30 grots, 90 boyz 25 lootas list still the "meta" list?
If you want to do the Loota bomb I'd up the Grots to about 60. It seems the lists that can take the Lootas out turn one are perfectly capable knocking over 30 grots and then 25 Lootas. There is also some speculation that 25 Lootas still just isn't enough to take down Knights *shrug* I don't play knights.. no idea.
There's not even the need to kill 30 gretchins to get the lootas, grots shield only works under some circumstances which are dependant to the gretchins positions. The opponent just needs to kill some of them to get to the lootas. With 25 lootas 60 gretchins is the minimum to protect them, tipycally you'd want even more. I used to screen the lootas with 30 boyz, then 60 gretchins. Those boyz weren't wasted as enemy deep strikers always arrived near the lootas bomb and they could always be jumped by the weirdboy in turns 3+ if they needed to be elsewhere. I had 2-3 full other mobs of boyz that could be jumped before.
25 lootas won't kill a castellan even investing 6 CPs per turn on them. Maybe a less efficient knight, but they're not optimal to target T8.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
flandarz wrote: I've actually moved away from Loota Bombs. I still field 15, but I don't like putting all my eggs in one basket, so I've been fielding them alongside a half-dozen Smashas/Traktorz (2 to 1). 15 Lootas are easier to keep alive than 25, for some reason.
Mee too. I prefer 15 lootas and 30 screening gretchins than the full loota bomb. This allows me to field more flexible lists; in fact at 2000 points I'm pairing that bad moons battallion with a death skulls brigade.
PiñaColada wrote: Well I'm not using Index so the obvious alternative isn't an option. Normally I get the complaint about the wazbom KFF, they're too fast to really work, but since my entire army is zooming up the board I'm thinking it might just work, having two of them would mean that spacing on the board shouldn't be a real issue. I think I'll try it out at some point in the near future. Might be a disaster but I want to try and switch up my force every now and then
Question: If I have a unit of bikes that aren't wholly within either one of the wazboms KFFs but wholly within a KFF field if I'm allowed to count them both, is that allowed? Basically does multiple KFF fields count as different entities or are they all counted as a KFF? I'm guessing they won't overlap..
Pina are you charging T1 with those bikes? The KFF doesn't work in melee so if you're charging T1 you might not get much use out of the Wazzbomb compared to say, a standard KFFMA/Big Mek who can protect your bikers if you don't get first turn (and fill those HQ slots).
A better solution, I have found, if your concern is the unit you charge T1 leaves combat/gets wiped and your bikes get obliterated by the opponent's other units, is to take the Vigilus detachment and use the stratagem to consolidate d6. Get stuck into those unit that would try to kill you and deny them shooting.
I might have to look into that but I'm already so CP starved that it's tough. Also, most times my bikes aren't wiping out everything they charged so that consolidation probably wouldn't help, but I'll look into it.
Overall the idea is T1 charges for the bikes (and maybe a bonebreaka as well) but if I don't get T1/the distance is too great/I wipe out whatever I charged then everything in the army is just so open to plasma spam. An IG tank commander with 2d3 shots plasma, plus 2d6 shots plasma (where both d6's are rerollable), plus a lascannon and a hunter killer missile is 203 points. He's hitting on 3's, rerolling 1's. Those things melt everything I have, almost a guarantee I'm not charging them T1 so some sort of resilience would be nice. Just being able to tank a couple of hits with the bonebreakas also help immensively since they degrade pretty hard..
The KFF aura rules are gonna make it tough to keep your units inside the bubble, unfortunately. You might be better off going with Deathskullz or Snakebitez (I prefer the former). Sure, it ain't a 5++, and you lose some speed from dropping Evil Sunz, but it'll really increase your survivability. And it ain't like Bikerz or Bonebreakers are slow, even without Evil Sunz.
Billagio wrote: Havnt really kept up the last few months. Is the 30 grots, 90 boyz 25 lootas list still the "meta" list?
If you want to do the Loota bomb I'd up the Grots to about 60. It seems the lists that can take the Lootas out turn one are perfectly capable knocking over 30 grots and then 25 Lootas. There is also some speculation that 25 Lootas still just isn't enough to take down Knights *shrug* I don't play knights.. no idea.
And if you are unlucky enough to face something like twin repulsor 60 grots and 15 lootas is just the start. I faced that, lost those and 20 grot and 11 boyz more.
30 is also hard to protect from 360 degrees without being in 1 unit. And h2h units able to t1charge will ignore 3x10 fairly easily.
60 is not exaggeration and more can be valid. Especially as you aan easily need to cover 2 places to have place to go to get los
Billagio wrote: Havnt really kept up the last few months. Is the 30 grots, 90 boyz 25 lootas list still the "meta" list?
If you want to do the Loota bomb I'd up the Grots to about 60. It seems the lists that can take the Lootas out turn one are perfectly capable knocking over 30 grots and then 25 Lootas. There is also some speculation that 25 Lootas still just isn't enough to take down Knights *shrug* I don't play knights.. no idea.
And if you are unlucky enough to face something like twin repulsor 60 grots and 15 lootas is just the start. I faced that, lost those and 20 grot and 11 boyz more.
30 is also hard to protect from 360 degrees without being in 1 unit. And h2h units able to t1charge will ignore 3x10 fairly easily.
60 is not exaggeration and more can be valid. Especially as you aan easily need to cover 2 places to have place to go to get los
How did he manage that? Any competitive twin repulsor list I've seen runs only one dakka respulsor and wouldn't have nearly enough dakka from other sources to do that much damage. Sounds like whoever you were playing was being a douche and tailored their whole list to stomp yours.
flandarz wrote: The KFF aura rules are gonna make it tough to keep your units inside the bubble, unfortunately.
You only need it for turn 1. KFF is a must if youre going mechanised.
flandarz wrote: You might be better off going with Deathskullz or Snakebitez (I prefer the former). Sure, it ain't a 5++, and you lose some speed from dropping Evil Sunz, but it'll really increase your survivability.
Except it's half the survivability that a KFF grants you. 5++ is twice as good as a 6++, and even better vs snakebites trait considering all the multi wound damage that you'll be facing.
flandarz wrote: And it ain't like Bikerz or Bonebreakers are slow, even without Evil Sunz.
Play to their strengths. Just go Evil Sunz.
flaming tadpole wrote: Sounds like whoever you were playing was being a douche and tailored their whole list to stomp yours.
Ork loota list is a strong list at the moment. You're damn right people are going to be trying out things to beat this list as it's a list to beat. In the same way that in this thread people are figuring out what our b est answer to knights is, other people will be looking for the best answer to chew tthrough 60 grots and 25 lootas is. This doesn't make them dicks.
flandarz wrote: The KFF aura rules are gonna make it tough to keep your units inside the bubble, unfortunately. You might be better off going with Deathskullz or Snakebitez (I prefer the former). Sure, it ain't a 5++, and you lose some speed from dropping Evil Sunz, but it'll really increase your survivability. And it ain't like Bikerz or Bonebreakers are slow, even without Evil Sunz.
Well, I'm not using index options and I'm mono evil sunz all the way. I do realize that I'm somewhat painting myself into a corner by doing that.. I will say that I find bikes to be pretty bad as anything other than ES though.
The point I keep trying to come back to though, has anyone tried to play two wazboms in a list? The KFF field they'd bring is huge, and my army is easily fast enough to keep up so they should have a 5++ against shooting most of the game. My meta is almost all shooting so that's what I need protection from. 320/360 points is a significant investment but those planes bring a decent amount of dakka as well.
Ork loota list is a strong list at the moment. You're damn right people are going to be trying out things to beat this list as it's a list to beat. In the same way that in this thread people are figuring out what our b est answer to knights is, other people will be looking for the best answer to chew tthrough 60 grots and 25 lootas is. This doesn't make them dicks.
If it was a friendly game it does. If I'm doing a pickup game with some dude that I know is running a Custodes biker spam I could just bring nothing but lootas and smash gunz and end the game in the first turn of shooting, but what exactly would be the point of playing the game in the first place then? Plus if that guy brought a list with that absurd amounts of anti horde to a GT he may very well be able to destroy the all of 2-3 ork players that are there if he gets lucky enough to match up against one, but then he's gonna get absolutely obliterated by 90% of the other armies there.
Ork loota list is a strong list at the moment. You're damn right people are going to be trying out things to beat this list as it's a list to beat. In the same way that in this thread people are figuring out what our b est answer to knights is, other people will be looking for the best answer to chew tthrough 60 grots and 25 lootas is. This doesn't make them dicks.
If it was a friendly game it does. If I'm doing a pickup game with some dude that I know is running a Custodes biker spam I could just bring nothing but lootas and smash gunz and end the game in the first turn of shooting, but what exactly would be the point of playing the game in the first place then? Plus if that guy brought a list with that absurd amounts of anti horde to a GT he may very well be able to destroy the all of 2-3 ork players that are there if he gets lucky enough to match up against one, but then he's gonna get absolutely obliterated by 90% of the other armies there.
Billagio wrote: Havnt really kept up the last few months. Is the 30 grots, 90 boyz 25 lootas list still the "meta" list?
If you want to do the Loota bomb I'd up the Grots to about 60. It seems the lists that can take the Lootas out turn one are perfectly capable knocking over 30 grots and then 25 Lootas. There is also some speculation that 25 Lootas still just isn't enough to take down Knights *shrug* I don't play knights.. no idea.
And if you are unlucky enough to face something like twin repulsor 60 grots and 15 lootas is just the start. I faced that, lost those and 20 grot and 11 boyz more.
30 is also hard to protect from 360 degrees without being in 1 unit. And h2h units able to t1charge will ignore 3x10 fairly easily.
60 is not exaggeration and more can be valid. Especially as you aan easily need to cover 2 places to have place to go to get los
How did he manage that? Any competitive twin repulsor list I've seen runs only one dakka respulsor and wouldn't have nearly enough dakka from other sources to do that much damage. Sounds like whoever you were playing was being a douche and tailored their whole list to stomp yours.
Twin dakka, some jump packers, basic bolter marines, tons of rerolls.
Not sure how tailoring vs me it was seeing it was 16 player tournament. Odds of facing specifically me is not that big
Ork loota list is a strong list at the moment. You're damn right people are going to be trying out things to beat this list as it's a list to beat. In the same way that in this thread people are figuring out what our b est answer to knights is, other people will be looking for the best answer to chew tthrough 60 grots and 25 lootas is. This doesn't make them dicks.
If it was a friendly game it does. If I'm doing a pickup game with some dude that I know is running a Custodes biker spam I could just bring nothing but lootas and smash gunz and end the game in the first turn of shooting, but what exactly would be the point of playing the game in the first place then? Plus if that guy brought a list with that absurd amounts of anti horde to a GT he may very well be able to destroy the all of 2-3 ork players that are there if he gets lucky enough to match up against one, but then he's gonna get absolutely obliterated by 90% of the other armies there.
Those bikes here would hide behind los until time to attack vs all that static guns.
Ork loota list is a strong list at the moment. You're damn right people are going to be trying out things to beat this list as it's a list to beat. In the same way that in this thread people are figuring out what our b est answer to knights is, other people will be looking for the best answer to chew tthrough 60 grots and 25 lootas is. This doesn't make them dicks.
If it was a friendly game it does. If I'm doing a pickup game with some dude that I know is running a Custodes biker spam I could just bring nothing but lootas and smash gunz and end the game in the first turn of shooting, but what exactly would be the point of playing the game in the first place then? Plus if that guy brought a list with that absurd amounts of anti horde to a GT he may very well be able to destroy the all of 2-3 ork players that are there if he gets lucky enough to match up against one, but then he's gonna get absolutely obliterated by 90% of the other armies there.
Tons of anti infantry would be very appropriate also against other top tier armies, like aeldari. But also tyranids and some chaos lists. It's just the imperium soup that requires you to bring lots of anti tank.
One of the reason why aeldari do so well in tournaments is that they laugh at S8+ weapons, but they can suffer terribly from lists with massive S4-5-6-7 shots.
flandarz wrote: The KFF aura rules are gonna make it tough to keep your units inside the bubble, unfortunately.
You only need it for turn 1. KFF is a must if youre going mechanised.
flandarz wrote: You might be better off going with Deathskullz or Snakebitez (I prefer the former). Sure, it ain't a 5++, and you lose some speed from dropping Evil Sunz, but it'll really increase your survivability.
Except it's half the survivability that a KFF grants you. 5++ is twice as good as a 6++, and even better vs snakebites trait considering all the multi wound damage that you'll be facing.
flandarz wrote: And it ain't like Bikerz or Bonebreakers are slow, even without Evil Sunz.
Play to their strengths. Just go Evil Sunz.
I think you missed the part where they specifically said that they was looking for Protection after T1. My suggestion was for that. Yeah, sure, if you only want an invuln for a single firing phase then I guess stick with Sunz and bring a KFF. As I said, it's gonna be hard to keep an army inside a 9" bubble after your first movement phase.
@Pina: if you've painted yourself into a corner, absolutely must have an Invuln after T1, and will never shift from Evil Sunz, then what you said is basically your only option. Either Biker Mekz, or Wazboms. And some careful moving up the board. But I do think you're limiting yourself a bit more than you need to.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: wait... your opponent wiped out over 100 models of Orkz *without* a horde optimized list?! I gotta say, tneva, your local meta scares me.
So...I may have broken my local DA player and made him think that not only Orkz but specifically Deff Koptas are OP as all hell.
Turn 2 he had his deathwing show up (10 terminators) and ugh.....I may have dropped 6 Bombs on him from 2 units of 3 Deff Koptas and incinerated the whole lot of them
BTW in no way shape or form are deff koptas competitive, this was a strictly for fun game and my deff Koptas actually did something. I didn't even need all the bombs because my first two bombs resulted in nothing but 5s and 6s
Well not broken neccessarilly but stupid and illogical. 100% free upgrade with no downside? Woot? (another equally silly is tank busta bombs in boyz squads. Modeling for win. If you have models you gain free bonus! Fun if none of your original 240 boyz had one...).
tneva82 wrote: Well not broken neccessarilly but stupid and illogical. 100% free upgrade with no downside? Woot? (another equally silly is tank busta bombs in boyz squads. Modeling for win. If you have models you gain free bonus! Fun if none of your original 240 boyz had one...).
Sorry but that's particular pet peeve of mine.
The boyz kit comes with one...and they are still cheap on ebay. And you are an ork. Use any remotely bomb-shaped bit and you're good. Just paint it a different color than your scheme and everyone will know what it is...or if not, tell them.
For the last match I played, I had a few extra and I just tied them on with thread. EZPZ.
tneva82 wrote: Well not broken neccessarilly but stupid and illogical. 100% free upgrade with no downside? Woot? (another equally silly is tank busta bombs in boyz squads. Modeling for win. If you have models you gain free bonus! Fun if none of your original 240 boyz had one...).
Sorry but that's particular pet peeve of mine.
The boyz kit comes with one...and they are still cheap on ebay. And you are an ork. Use any remotely bomb-shaped bit and you're good. Just paint it a different color than your scheme and everyone will know what it is...or if not, tell them.
For the last match I played, I had a few extra and I just tied them on with thread. EZPZ.
Boyz kit come with one. So are you supposed to buy 24 new boxes to give your 240 orks those bombs? I'm sure GW would love that. My wallet less so. With 7ppm boyz I don't need 480 boyz even with different clans.
tneva82 wrote: Well not broken neccessarilly but stupid and illogical. 100% free upgrade with no downside? Woot? (another equally silly is tank busta bombs in boyz squads. Modeling for win. If you have models you gain free bonus! Fun if none of your original 240 boyz had one...).
Sorry but that's particular pet peeve of mine.
The boyz kit comes with one...and they are still cheap on ebay. And you are an ork. Use any remotely bomb-shaped bit and you're good. Just paint it a different color than your scheme and everyone will know what it is...or if not, tell them.
For the last match I played, I had a few extra and I just tied them on with thread. EZPZ.
Boyz kit come with one. So are you supposed to buy 24 new boxes to give your 240 orks those bombs? I'm sure GW would love that. My wallet less so. With 7ppm boyz I don't need 480 boyz even with different clans.
Buying incomplete kits is always a risk. What if you bought some marines but none had a plasma gun? And then later (because the rules changed) you now want the plasma gun...you buy it, right?
If you bought those 240 boyz for less than the discount price of $600, you got a screaming deal, right? Why would you be upset that now you might have to shell out $24 to get a more complete kit?
It's not even buying incomplete kits but simply not having put them when you bought because there was NO NEED FOR THEM.
Before those pieces were 100% useless. Only now suddenly they came to use and in stupid way. Free upgrades with no downside is plain WRONG. That goes against whole point of points. How would you think marines getting free power fist for their squads? Free bonus if you model it. Exactly same as free tank busta bombs.
The tank busta bombs shouldn't be free upgrade with no downside. Either have big enough disadvantage that it's balanced whether you take it or not or have points on them.
tneva82 wrote: It's not even buying incomplete kits but simply not having put them when you bought because there was NO NEED FOR THEM.
Before those pieces were 100% useless. Only now suddenly they came to use and in stupid way. Free upgrades with no downside is plain WRONG. That goes against whole point of points. How would you think marines getting free power fist for their squads? Free bonus if you model it. Exactly same as free tank busta bombs.
The tank busta bombs shouldn't be free upgrade with no downside. Either have big enough disadvantage that it's balanced whether you take it or not or have points on them.
What do you mean now downside? They went up a whole point to compensate.
I'm usually quite strict on WYSIWYG but 0 points weapons and upgrades don't really count.
It's perfectly fine if boyz are played with a tankbusta bomb every 10 models even without having the right bitz glued on the right number of them.
Power fist is a specific and iconic weapon that requires the appropriate bitz instead. Like power klaws or big choppas. The single free bomb doesn't make any significant difference in the long run. Those melee weapons do instead, that's why they're not free upgrades.
And to be honest they're not even free, boyz got a price hike basically only for adding that bomb in their standard equipment. Welcome to the new GW trend that aims to standardize every kit cutting options and imposing mandatory wargear.
The kopta bomb is a different thing though because it's index only and index kopta's price was definitely designed to factor the bomb in. Now koptas are half cheaper with no bomb. That's the issue of mixing index and codex, especially those units that are included in both books but have different profiles or options.
tneva82 wrote: Well not broken neccessarilly but stupid and illogical. 100% free upgrade with no downside? Woot? (another equally silly is tank busta bombs in boyz squads. Modeling for win. If you have models you gain free bonus! Fun if none of your original 240 boyz had one...).
Sorry but that's particular pet peeve of mine.
The boyz kit comes with one...and they are still cheap on ebay. And you are an ork. Use any remotely bomb-shaped bit and you're good. Just paint it a different color than your scheme and everyone will know what it is...or if not, tell them.
For the last match I played, I had a few extra and I just tied them on with thread. EZPZ.
Boyz kit come with one. So are you supposed to buy 24 new boxes to give your 240 orks those bombs? I'm sure GW would love that. My wallet less so. With 7ppm boyz I don't need 480 boyz even with different clans.
Boyz kit comes with 2, but I understand it's tough. It is a pretty minor buff though, could you consider playing without it? I'm sure it would not really affect most games you play.
I feel like quite a few of us probably already had tankbusta bombs on our boyz, at least I did. I had done it just for modeling variety's sake, but that they snag those bombs from dead tankbustas seemed like a logical thing as well.
But surely you have those bits if you already assembled all those boyz Tneva? I just assume as an ork player that you don't throw away your unused bits. Even if you did then I feel like there could be plenty of substitutes for tankbusta bombs like; several of those stikkbomb bundles tied together, the rokkit from a rokkit launcha, melta bombs etc. As long as it's a bomb of some sort it shouldn't really matter.
I'm sort of on the same page as you when it comes to free upgrades, it's weird when you get auto-take options. But at what price would you have added them otherwise, 1-2 points? Also we're all obviously okay with the nob being a free upgrade even though he's worth 2 boyz.
Interesting point about the tankbustabombs. I've never thought about modelling a boy with one of these to make him stand out (don't use boys very often anyhow).
Played three 1000 pts games yesterday against an Ork Walker-wall and Green tide. My Freebootaz list was composed of: Souped-up-SAG/ Badrukk / Gretchin / Tankbusta's in Chinork/ 2x Boosta Blasta/ Gitz in trukk / 3x smasha. The Freebootaz were utterly brutal and I had to promiss my opponetn not to use this list again in the future. First game against the walkers lasted 2 turns. The 2nd game against Greentide he gave up before taking his first turn when his lootas and one of the big mobs were wrecked. Only when he got first turn and a first turn charge the game was interesting and I lost (not being able to use my Gitz and Mek guns) but not even by a big margin.
Hmmmm. anybody else experiencing this with Freebootaz lists?
I was hoping to get some input on my ork list for an upcoming tournament. What do you guys think? I'm playing against tau, imperial guard, and space wolves.
I'm gonna hafta make some assumptions on your fielding, since you didn't give us any info on that. So, assuming your Wazbom is gonna be using its KFF on the Boy Mob, your Nobz are gonna be vulnerable, unless your Tellyport them. Your Biker Boss and Wartrike are gonna leave the rest of your army behind, if you move them to their full speed, leaving them vulnerable too. If you're gonna use Super Cybork, it's usually best to pair it with the Bad Moonz Warlord Trait. And if your Tankbustas go down, you're losing basically all your ranged capability.
I'm not super experienced in the tournament scene, so I'll let someone else give you suggestions on improvements. I just wanted to give my two cents on what I immediately noticed.
Sorry about the lack of information. I was going to use the plane with KFF in the middle of my battlewagons and trukks to shield them turn one. After that, I'm charging the battlewagons forward and the trukks with TB are driving around and taking care of any high toughness threats my battlewagons cant charge into. I'll deploy the boyz on the field with the gretchins with the same Klan to use as grot shields if needed; then I'll da jump them. I grabbed the cybork relic just so I can try to keep the wartrike alive long enough to see what he can do lol. I know it's not an optimized list, but I was hoping to build a list around a bonebreaka core
@AngryMedic, have you looked at the Vigilis Detachments? There is one that inclides a relic that gives your wartrike +1 toughness and a 5++. There is also a battlewagon one...
where are those rules anyway? i thought they were in chapterapproved but i didnt see them.
Could be blind since it had a gakton of imperial related crap...
oof, 50 bucks for a book i dont care for 95% of. Typical GW....
i might need to find those rules on my own. I dont see myself using them much but i still want to try them.
I like the fact GW tends to defend itself by saying "we are a model company selling models", but for such company they do love to sell you some books and oh boy dont they just LOVE smashing info in bits - spread across all books... But enough about that.
How many Supajets people wield? Ive been scouring tourney reports, and most Ork lists out there have three of them.
Err... a dakkajet? I'm interested in the best use of those as well, I've got a cute little cartoony B17 model I intend to convert, and am not sure if I should do more than one.
Ilgoth wrote: I like the fact GW tends to defend itself by saying "we are a model company selling models", but for such company they do love to sell you some books and oh boy dont they just LOVE smashing info in bits - spread across all books... But enough about that.
How many Supajets people wield? Ive been scouring tourney reports, and most Ork lists out there have three of them.
Do you mean the megatrakk scrapjet? They're decent, wouldn't necessarily call them competitive as they're still overcosted like all the other buggies just not as bad. They can work pretty well in some specific lists. I'd probably run them as 3 solo's with evil sunz since deathskulls wouldn't benefit them as much and they need the extra movement with only a 10" move.
Dakkajets are either amazing or useless and unfortunately its dependent on who you face.
GEQs? Completely shreds through their numbers, despite having half the hits of my shootaboyz on average it still tends to kill more in the end. MEQs? Pfft...either my luck is terrible or they are completely worthless at dealing with MEQs. Every time i field one against a MEQ army it feels like it isnt doing a dang thing, to the point of my opponent even ignores it so it lasts the entire game, which it should never last that long, and just...doesnt do anything. Wouldnt even try against vehicles/monsters. The higher toughness and number of wounds makes it do almost nothing. Few times i did try it performed exactly how i expected: landed 2 wounds on a T7 3+ save vehicle.
The thing with Tankbusta bombs....you really only need 1 per mob....yeah they are free upgrades but who cares? Just kill him last, you can only ever use 1 per shooting phase anyway and realistically if you waste the CP on the grenade strat using a boyz mob you are so desperate that the game is probably already out of hand....which would be weird because I usually run out of CP by the end of turn 3ish if I am being conservative.
7ppm boyz stink compared to what everyone else got with their codex upgrades. we got Dakkax3 to help with the fact that almost all our shooting units were CRAP and still pretty much are unless you spend an insane amount of CP on them. I haven't seen Shootaboy mobz yet nor have I seen people fielding flashgitz in tournaments either. Basically its the Loota bomb or someone brings a bunch of dakkajets and hopes to face lots of light infantry in their games.
Heafstaag wrote: I'm not liking 7 point ork boyz either. They aren't awful or anything, but they are more expensive than ever and die faster than ever now.
Meh.
And they have fewer attacks to boot.
Kicked in the nuts 3 times. More expensive, less attacks, and die easier than ever.
I think boyz need to either go back to 6 points or they need to get 4 attacks base on the charge.
I think you have to factor how quickly most things die in 8th ed, outside of a few outlier units. Furthermore, I think with klan kulturs being on the higher end of the spectrum when it comes to faction traits (compared to guys like Eldar or SM) it justifies them being 1 point more expensive than they were before. I'm not sure what you mean by them having less attacks since they haven't changed in that regard unless you're talking about in 7th ed., which is pretty disingenuous given that almost all CC (and non-CC) units lost that with the edition change to charges. Plus boyz were pretty awful in 7th ed. outside of the Green Tide formation, so even with that comparison I don't get where you're getting that from.
Basically with boyz, you need to go all in on several things, either:
tellyport/da jump them
put them in battlewagons
Run 120+ footslogging on the board
You can't expect them to just do all the legwork, now that the rest of the codex is relatively up to par.
7 ppm boyz are passable but they look odd compared to 9 ppm sisters that can easilly get up to 6 s4 attacks while maintaining 3+ armor and often 4++. They also have great shooting to boot.
SemperMortis wrote: The thing with Tankbusta bombs....you really only need 1 per mob....yeah they are free upgrades but who cares? Just kill him last, you can only ever use 1 per shooting phase anyway and realistically if you waste the CP on the grenade strat using a boyz mob you are so desperate that the game is probably already out of hand....which would be weird because I usually run out of CP by the end of turn 3ish if I am being conservative.
You still need specific model to represent. If you are "he's the one I kill last" then you are cheating either intentionally or unintentionally but nevertheless gaining definite advantage with it. Ergo any bombs MUST be identifiable in the unit. "he's the last boy I remove" doesn't cut it.
(and incidentally same reason is also reason why you want 3 in mob of 30 so 3 specific models)
Hey guys, I'm putting together my first Ork list ever (I mainly play eldar) and would really appreciate some advice!
So I've managed to get my hands on some kharadron airships I want to orkify and turn into pirate ships. The theme would be freebooterz ideally but it would it be mixing in some other kultures?
I'd really like to use the big ship as a kill tank, with maybe a couple of bonebreakers and a big trakk and fill them full of nobz, maybe with some mega armoured nobz in there too.
I'm not too sure on the best loadouts for the vehicles and squads though, but was thinking of running the trakk with a super scorcha, twin skorchas and load of combi skorcha nobz, or Burna Boyz if points get tight, for a massive amount of flamer hits.
I'm not expecting it to be a super competitive list, the theme and having fun is the main thing really, but would like to be able to hold my own at least, my meta seems pretty competitive ATM!
So any advice would be great, it's my first ever Ork list so really swamped with options atm!
Freebootas are pretty strong if you go all the way with them. I'd say they're a kultur where you don't want to soup others in, or do so at a small scale.
Their ability, to gain +1 to hit is quite strong for Orks but you have to kill something first. A super-skorcha could get the job done against a softer target. Another option is Mek Gunz, since the grots can help you achieve the bonus but don't benefit from it themselves. The problem with getting the benefit from a mek gun is that it forms a 24" bubble, which might be an issue considering the mek gunz are in your backline.
Overall, I wouldn't go too hard with the skorcha loadout on nobz since you kultur doesn't really help them. The kultur works in CC as well so combining a waaagh banner nob with saw MANZ ad the kultur and they hit on 2's. Plenty of fun little interactions you can get.
Basically just ask yourself, in both the shooting and the fight phase, what's the easiest thing I can kill so the rest of my army gets killier?
Ok thanks, so freebooterz are sort of like ynnari orks? I can work with that!
Not sure about the mek guns, like you said everything else will be up the other end of the table usually and I'd like to have everything in the transports if possible.
Might go for Burna Boyz instead of nobz with skorcha then, to keep them cheaper. Would also like to fit in some flash gitz if I can, do you think taking them in larger squads of say 8 plus a couple ammo runts would be the best way?
For characters definitely a nob with banner, plus I have a big mek, badrukk and a painboy.
Mek gunz are really good right now, might change in the March FAQ but a smasha gun for 31 points is insane value. Since grots never get the kultur benefit but they can help other get the freeboota benefit they are a good fit, fire 'em first and hope for a kill. They are expensive models though, so I fully understand if you don't want to use them.
Burna boyz are unfortunately terrible, but you can check out the Kustom boosta-blasta (it's basically 4 burna boyz plus other stuff) to fill some auto-hitting needs. The dakkajet, while not auto-hitting, hits on 3's if you get the ability off and shoot all the guns at the same target. For 1CP you can shoot other flyers at an additional +1 to hit. Remember to buy the extra supa-shootas if you're using it.
Flash Gitz are good in a freeboota army, and it's super fluffy so I say go for 'em! Any configuration is probably okay but 2 small groups with runts fit in a single trukk and could be an idea. The painboy is alright, not going to sink you army or anything but probably a bit too steep of a price to easily recommend. As someone who runs plenty of transports I can say that you can do it but remember to look into bonebreakas for the units with no shooting, like Nobz or MANZ.
Is you big mek a SAG big mek? If so, check out the relic from the dread waaagh detachment in Vigilus defiant. It's 2d6 shots instead of 1d6. That guy is going to wreck face if he gets to hit on 4's.
To trigger your ability in CC a great way is to use a warboss with Da Killa Klaw since it already hits on 2's (and like a damn trukk). Nobz are great in CC and cheap enough (a 10 man squad with 5 BC, a couple of power stabbas and the rest dual choppas + 2 ammo runts is a great setup). MANZ with saws hitting on 2's is insane.
On the boyz discussion. In my opinion they are expensive and easy to kill, they are also pretty effective in general. You have to use command points to get as much out of them as possible.
Also don't forget 7th edition boyz were strength 3 base.
koooaei wrote: 7 ppm boyz are passable but they look odd compared to 9 ppm sisters that can easilly get up to 6 s4 attacks while maintaining 3+ armor and often 4++. They also have great shooting to boot.
That is theoretically possible, but in practice, Sisters ain't gonna be able to do that more than once per game, if that.
PiñaColada wrote: Is you big mek a SAG big mek? If so, check out the relic from the dread waaagh detachment in Vigilus defiant. It's 2d6 shots instead of 1d6. That guy is going to wreck face if he gets to hit on 4's.
About that... I have used that relic three times so far and it did next to nothing. As soon as -1 to hit or invul saves are involved the 2d6 shots hitting on 5+ simply don't cut it. Two hits which might be wounding on fives have not been doing much for me, and I'm not wasting the shooting phase re-roll on the strength roll. The dead shiny shoota I have been running just for the heck of it has killed more than the relic SAG and costs less CP.
PiñaColada wrote: Is you big mek a SAG big mek? If so, check out the relic from the dread waaagh detachment in Vigilus defiant. It's 2d6 shots instead of 1d6. That guy is going to wreck face if he gets to hit on 4's.
About that... I have used that relic three times so far and it did next to nothing. As soon as -1 to hit or invul saves are involved the 2d6 shots hitting on 5+ simply don't cut it. Two hits which might be wounding on fives have not been doing much for me, and I'm not wasting the shooting phase re-roll on the strength roll. The dead shiny shoota I have been running just for the heck of it has killed more than the relic SAG and costs less CP.
I mean, it's hilariously random but I've had some good luck with him just as an Evil Sunz player (meaning zero buffs). I've one-shotted a land raider, a tank commander & a crimson hunter in just a few games. I also killed a shield captain on jetbike in overwatch. Is he always going to produce results? Heck no, but the potential is always there and basically no unit (other than a horde or character) is ever going to be comfortable when targeted by him. There's only really been one game where the relic SAG mek didn't really make his points back.
i've shelved my SAG.
Shot it against a Baneblade, rolled boxcars for damage, rolled 6 for the D6 hits, i got bad moonz reroll so i should hit some right?
Vineheart01 wrote: i've shelved my SAG.
Shot it against a Baneblade, rolled boxcars for damage, rolled 6 for the D6 hits, i got bad moonz reroll so i should hit some right?
Missed every single shot. Man was i pissed.
Well, I'll never take the non-relic SAG again. But with 2d6 shots you can expect a few hits. He can't be fired at since he's a character, if someone snipes him you can use "Orkz is never beaten" to shoot anyways. You can shoot again with Kustom Ammo. He fills an HQ slot and can repair a nearby vehicle/mek gun. I'm just saying that there's a decent amount of flexibility for 80 (or 84) points. Just park him on a home objective and hope he makes the points back, otherwise he holds an objective and can't be shot at.
Edit: And the weapon itself is just so fantastically orky
i dont even have the rules for the Vigilius stuff and im not buying a 50USD freakin' book for literally 1 thing i'd want.
Isnt the supersag limited in some way? Or is it an extra gubbinz like normal?
Vineheart01 wrote: i dont even have the rules for the Vigilius stuff and im not buying a 50USD freakin' book for literally 1 thing i'd want.
Isnt the supersag limited in some way? Or is it an extra gubbinz like normal?
I was able to find the whole book online pretty easily back when it first came out, I don't know if links have been taken down since then though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: totally legally of course...
Has everyone caught that the Kult of Speed warlord trait only makes speed freeks units within 12" immune to morale the turn they advance so it is utterly, completely useless?
PiñaColada wrote: Mek gunz are really good right now, might change in the March FAQ but a smasha gun for 31 points is insane value. Since grots never get the kultur benefit but they can help other get the freeboota benefit they are a good fit, fire 'em first and hope for a kill. They are expensive models though, so I fully understand if you don't want to use them.
.
One issue with mek guns though is that if your army is mostly infantry heavy(like the traditional loota bombs) then mek guns will end up basically dead on opponent's 1st turn. IF you don't have plenty vehicles every AT gun from opponent's army WILL aim at them.
So something like 5-6 mek guns and rest infantry is basically one shot wonder. IF you go first they get to shoot once. Either way then they will shoot as they are only things worth shooting with with anti tank guns.
PiñaColada wrote: Is you big mek a SAG big mek? If so, check out the relic from the dread waaagh detachment in Vigilus defiant. It's 2d6 shots instead of 1d6. That guy is going to wreck face if he gets to hit on 4's.
About that... I have used that relic three times so far and it did next to nothing. As soon as -1 to hit or invul saves are involved the 2d6 shots hitting on 5+ simply don't cut it. Two hits which might be wounding on fives have not been doing much for me, and I'm not wasting the shooting phase re-roll on the strength roll. The dead shiny shoota I have been running just for the heck of it has killed more than the relic SAG and costs less CP.
I mean, it's hilariously random but I've had some good luck with him just as an Evil Sunz player (meaning zero buffs). I've one-shotted a land raider, a tank commander & a crimson hunter in just a few games. I also killed a shield captain on jetbike in overwatch. Is he always going to produce results? Heck no, but the potential is always there and basically no unit (other than a horde or character) is ever going to be comfortable when targeted by him. There's only really been one game where the relic SAG mek didn't really make his points back.
It's weird gun. Keeps failing for me but then again there's rarely even been good TARGET for it to shoot. Best shot I did would have vaporized baneblade if there had been one. Too bad target was lousy rhino. But that would have been 29 wounds to T8 3+ target.
Relic could be nice. And rolling that 11+ even once. I think I have shot like 20 times without that. But as it is I spend my times shooting with it rhino's or standard infantry.
Vineheart01 wrote: so...it works on bikers. Thats it. Because the other speedfreeks are single model units
(least i dont remember if deffkoptas are speedfreeks)
It doesn't work on anyhing really because its unlikely your bikes take a ton of damage in your own turn.
Vineheart01 wrote: so...it works on bikers. Thats it. Because the other speedfreeks are single model units
(least i dont remember if deffkoptas are speedfreeks)
It doesn't work on anyhing really because its unlikely your bikes take a ton of damage in your own turn.
It's obviously "intended" to prevent morale losses to self destructing Squig Buggies. /s
BaconCatBug wrote: It's obviously "intended" to prevent morale losses to self destructing Squig Buggies. /s
GW not being able to write is not new.
True, I'm just gutted our speed frek list is even worse than I first thought.
I guess turn is presumed to be just player turn? Because otherwise yeah, its pretty bad. The most I can see you using it is having warbikers advance and charge in the same turn, but warbikers aren't an assault oriented unit to begin with and if you're assuming they're going to be taking heavy casualties then you're doing it wrong.
Grimskul wrote: I guess turn is presumed to be just player turn? Because otherwise yeah, its pretty bad. The most I can see you using it is having warbikers advance and charge in the same turn, but warbikers aren't an assault oriented unit to begin with and if you're assuming they're going to be taking heavy casualties then you're doing it wrong.
Dammit Gdubs, one job.
Nothing "presumed" about it. "Turn" has a very specific meaning and definition in 40k. Even if the rule said "Battle Round" it wouldn't be worded correctly, because if the Speed Freek player is going 2nd it would never work also. The rule needs to say "in its prior Movement phase" like Grim Resolve does.
BaconCatBug wrote: It's obviously "intended" to prevent morale losses to self destructing Squig Buggies. /s
GW not being able to write is not new.
True, I'm just gutted our speed frek list is even worse than I first thought.
I guess turn is presumed to be just player turn? Because otherwise yeah, its pretty bad. The most I can see you using it is having warbikers advance and charge in the same turn, but warbikers aren't an assault oriented unit to begin with and if you're assuming they're going to be taking heavy casualties then you're doing it wrong.
Dammit Gdubs, one job.
It needs to say round really rather than turn (E - or what BCP said). That would take it from ‘a complete waste of CP’ to ‘probably a complete waste of CP’.
@pinacolada, thanks! I'll have a closer look at mek guns then, will post a list up shortly in the other forum.
The mek is just standard with a big choppa unfortunately, I was going to give him a kff though, to give the kill tank a bit more protection on the way in
What's your thoughts on badrukk, you think he's worth it in a freebooter list, or would a custom warboss be better? I'm leaning towards just using the model as a warboss tbh
Grimskul wrote: I guess turn is presumed to be just player turn? Because otherwise yeah, its pretty bad. The most I can see you using it is having warbikers advance and charge in the same turn, but warbikers aren't an assault oriented unit to begin with and if you're assuming they're going to be taking heavy casualties then you're doing it wrong.
Dammit Gdubs, one job.
Nothing "presumed" about it. "Turn" has a very specific meaning and definition in 40k. Even if the rule said "Battle Round" it wouldn't be worded correctly, because if the Speed Freek player is going 2nd it would never work also. The rule needs to say "in its prior Movement phase" like Grim Resolve does.
Right, I still have some of the 7th ed terminology in my head when it comes to battle rounds and game turns. Either way, hopefully GW address it in a FAQ at some point, because its an embarrassment of a WL trait.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trashpanda wrote: @pinacolada, thanks! I'll have a closer look at mek guns then, will post a list up shortly in the other forum.
The mek is just standard with a big choppa unfortunately, I was going to give him a kff though, to give the kill tank a bit more protection on the way in
What's your thoughts on badrukk, you think he's worth it in a freebooter list, or would a custom warboss be better? I'm leaning towards just using the model as a warboss tbh
If you're aiming to make him your warlord, the warboss would be better. He has more flexibility and actually benefits from the Freeboota WL trait if you deem to take it, given that Badrukk is a ranged character and therefore has no business in being in CC. Badrukk is better as a support character and effectively acts as a mobile plasma cannon with a reroll aura for Flash Gitz, which is kind of hard to take advantage of given that Flash Gitz work best in transports.
Badrukk is the best. He is good in any list, freebooter or not. Even good without flash gitz. Last time I used him he wiped out a 3 man battle suit team in one round of shooting. He is a reliable way to put out ranged damage, more so than the pathetic shokk attack gun.
Heafstaag wrote: I'm not liking 7 point ork boyz either. They aren't awful or anything, but they are more expensive than ever and die faster than ever now.
Meh.
And they have fewer attacks to boot.
Kicked in the nuts 3 times. More expensive, less attacks, and die easier than ever.
I think boyz need to either go back to 6 points or they need to get 4 attacks base on the charge.
I think you have to factor how quickly most things die in 8th ed, outside of a few outlier units. Furthermore, I think with klan kulturs being on the higher end of the spectrum when it comes to faction traits (compared to guys like Eldar or SM) it justifies them being 1 point more expensive than they were before. I'm not sure what you mean by them having less attacks since they haven't changed in that regard unless you're talking about in 7th ed., which is pretty disingenuous given that almost all CC (and non-CC) units lost that with the edition change to charges. Plus boyz were pretty awful in 7th ed. outside of the Green Tide formation, so even with that comparison I don't get where you're getting that from.
Basically with boyz, you need to go all in on several things, either:
tellyport/da jump them
put them in battlewagons
Run 120+ footslogging on the board
You can't expect them to just do all the legwork, now that the rest of the codex is relatively up to par.
Everything does tend to die quicker, that is true. I think that raising the price of boyz for the first time in years...when their survivability is at an all time low and their number of attacks is at an all time low is a bit odd and irksome. Boyz are still awesome, I find, but they have to get their to do work, and if your mob is under 20 you lose a lot of steam going in. I think boyz should 2 base attacks, 1 for the choppa, and 1 on the charge, like it was for many years (on the charge). They can keep or get rid of the the extra attack above 20, or move it up to 30 or more models since units can be combined now.
I've always had lots of boyz in my lists, usually around 1000, and it feels like you can fit less things in a list....maybe?
Overall I really like the Ork Codex, don't get me wrong. Its fun, and I feel like I can hang in there against anybody with it. I'm not much a tournament player, but in a casual/semi competitive environment I am loving them!
Its really a small complaint that boyz went up a point, I suppose, but when you have a 100+ it does add up!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Geemoney wrote: On the boyz discussion. In my opinion they are expensive and easy to kill, they are also pretty effective in general. You have to use command points to get as much out of them as possible.
Also don't forget 7th edition boyz were strength 3 base.
Very true, though I don't think they are super expensive...just a point! I had forgotten they used to be strength 3.
I really like the snakebite monster hunter strategem on a big unit boyz. And of course fight twice and endless green tide or whatever its called. All expensive strategems!
Hell in 7th you had to pay a point just for the honor of giving boyz a shoota in place of their slugga/choppa.
Not much has changed except being able to tear apart vehicles with a lads bare hands. If anything boys are tougher than ever before due to getting armour saves for stuff like bolters and the like.
7th was also arguably the worst the orks have ever been.
6th was old dex, and a lot of the core rules utterly screwed orks over (challenge being the #1 rule that pissed me off). They were in a bad spot, but we still had loota spam and bikernobz atleast so they could still play.
7th dex literally took what few things we had away. Shootas went up in price, lootas went to heavy so they werent eating useless elite slots and also went up in points, our relics were weaker than other dex's normal gear, we had 0 invuls in melee except ghaz waagh, etc etc.
The amount of difference between 7th orks and 8th orks is so drastic that the 7ppm ork boyz isnt crippling. It sucks, and does make them oddly weak, but they still do work while in 7th they did literally nothing.
BaconCatBug wrote: It's obviously "intended" to prevent morale losses to self destructing Squig Buggies. /s
GW not being able to write is not new.
True, I'm just gutted our speed frek list is even worse than I first thought.
Its actually useful.
The same specialist detachment has the 2d6" consolidate stratagem, using that stratagem you can spread out and potentially tie up a lot of other units. If you did not declare a charge against them, or even if you did but you threw all your attacks at your primary target, those other units can all hit you back.
If you are using a deffkilla wartrike for the advance+charge for the bikers, the deffkilla guy has no morale modification. This will allow you to weather some casualties from the return hits but then ignore morale issues.
BaconCatBug wrote: It's obviously "intended" to prevent morale losses to self destructing Squig Buggies. /s
GW not being able to write is not new.
True, I'm just gutted our speed frek list is even worse than I first thought.
Its actually useful.
The same specialist detachment has the 2d6" consolidate stratagem, using that stratagem you can spread out and potentially tie up a lot of other units. If you did not declare a charge against them, or even if you did but you threw all your attacks at your primary target, those other units can all hit you back.
If you are using a deffkilla wartrike for the advance+charge for the bikers, the deffkilla guy has no morale modification. This will allow you to weather some casualties from the return hits but then ignore morale issues.
Not amazing, but useful.
It's dire and now I've thought about it functionally useless.
Why are you using the 2CP consolidate stratagem to get your bikes into more trouble? Why are you putting your bikes in jeopardy at all? With their speed you should be able to pick the fights that suit them best. The return hits should do very little to you. You should be using the consolidation stratagem to tie up units that don't want to be in combat (so shouldn't do much return hitting either).
To mitigate morale losses (in both yours and your opponents turn) we actually already have a number of options. Warboss on bike (or not) breaking heads. An unit of 30-40 boys jumped up field within 6".
You reckon it's worth spending a CP to take this additional WL trait when we have so many other things to spend the CP on? I can't see it.
Why are you using the 2CP consolidate stratagem to get your bikes into more trouble? Why are you putting your bikes in jeopardy at all? With their speed you should be able to pick the fights that suit them best. The return hits should do very little to you. You should be using the consolidation stratagem to tie up units that don't want to be in combat (so shouldn't do much return hitting either).
To mitigate morale losses (in both yours and your opponents turn) we actually already have a number of options. Warboss on bike (or not) breaking heads. An unit of 30-40 boys jumped up field within 6".
You reckon it's worth spending a CP to take this additional WL trait when we have so many other things to spend the CP on? I can't see it.
Ugh, that's so much worse than I though it was. (I realize I'm just quoting the latest post and not the one explaining it all). The speed freeks detachment isn't worth it at all if you play evil sunz then. I can see the use of it if you play bad moons maybe, being able to move 28" and still fire on 5's, rerolling 1's. Especially if you don't have a warboss/deffkilla nearby, but these are niche cases. I've been using the dread waaagh detachment but solely for the use of the relic SAG. I really, really like the killa kan models but I hate that they can't have stratagems used on them/get kulturs. I really think grots should get diminished versions of the existing kulturs that they belong to. Something like:
Evil Sunz: Get +1" move
Bad Moons: Reroll 1's on their dakkadakkadakka sots (this one is tough, since Mek Gunz don't need a buff)
Snakesbites: Get a 6+ FnP if the shot fired is less than double the toughness of the unit and damage 1
Deffskullz: Get a 6++ invuln if the shot is lss than double the toughness of the unit and damage 1
Blood Axes: Get the cover bonus thing
Freebootas: They already sort of get the bonus by being able to trigger it
Goffs: Maybe the entire bonus since it's only good on killa kanz?
Just giving them something to actually make them feel like a part of the army. The little gribblies look up to the Orks so they should've picked up on some of their tricks. Also, killa kanz should be targetable by strats.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trashpanda wrote: @pinacolada, thanks! I'll have a closer look at mek guns then, will post a list up shortly in the other forum.
The mek is just standard with a big choppa unfortunately, I was going to give him a kff though, to give the kill tank a bit more protection on the way in
What's your thoughts on badrukk, you think he's worth it in a freebooter list, or would a custom warboss be better? I'm leaning towards just using the model as a warboss tbh
I haven't used either Badrukk or a killtank in 8th, I still have the old charming badrukk model though A KFF on such an expensive tank might be a good idea though. He doesn't have to start in the tank, deploy him outside of it so he also covers your transports if you don't get T1. Amount of drops is far less significant in the CA 2018 missions.
Well, you'd need multiple HQ's anyways so you can easily take both. But as for making your warlord I'd take a kustom warboss. Some of the relics *cough* Killa Klaw *cough* are really hard to pass up on. Combine that with Brutal but kunnin' WL and he's a monster. Also, as stated in an earlier post, then he also hits on 2's, meaning you can use him to try and trigger the freeboota kultur in CC since he wouldn't benefit from it anyways.
PiñaColada wrote: Ugh, that's so much worse than I though it was. (I realize I'm just quoting the latest post and not the one explaining it all). The speed freeks detachment isn't worth it at all if you play evil sunz then. I can see the use of it if you play bad moons maybe, being able to move 28" and still fire on 5's, rerolling 1's. Especially if you don't have a warboss/deffkilla nearby, but these are niche cases. I've been using the dread waaagh detachment but solely for the use of the relic SAG. I really, really like the killa kan models but I hate that they can't have stratagems used on them/get kulturs. I really think grots should get diminished versions of the existing kulturs that they belong to. Something like:
Evil Sunz: Get +1" move
Bad Moons: Reroll 1's on their dakkadakkadakka sots (this one is tough, since Mek Gunz don't need a buff)
Snakesbites: Get a 6+ FnP if the shot fired is less than double the toughness of the unit and damage 1
Deffskullz: Get a 6++ invuln if the shot is lss than double the toughness of the unit and damage 1
Blood Axes: Get the cover bonus thing
Freebootas: They already sort of get the bonus by being able to trigger it
Goffs: Maybe the entire bonus since it's only good on killa kanz?
Just giving them something to actually make them feel like a part of the army. The little gribblies look up to the Orks so they should've picked up on some of their tricks. Also, killa kanz should be targetable by strats.
Yea the kult of speed is poor. Makes me regret buying Vigilus really.
I absolutely agree Killa Kans at least should get something like traits. They should also be able to have stratagems target them. As it stands they are too ham stringed by their lack of synergy.
BaconCatBug wrote: It's obviously "intended" to prevent morale losses to self destructing Squig Buggies. /s
GW not being able to write is not new.
True, I'm just gutted our speed frek list is even worse than I first thought.
Its actually useful.
The same specialist detachment has the 2d6" consolidate stratagem, using that stratagem you can spread out and potentially tie up a lot of other units. If you did not declare a charge against them, or even if you did but you threw all your attacks at your primary target, those other units can all hit you back.
If you are using a deffkilla wartrike for the advance+charge for the bikers, the deffkilla guy has no morale modification. This will allow you to weather some casualties from the return hits but then ignore morale issues.
Not amazing, but useful.
It's dire and now I've thought about it functionally useless.
Why are you using the 2CP consolidate stratagem to get your bikes into more trouble? Why are you putting your bikes in jeopardy at all? With their speed you should be able to pick the fights that suit them best. The return hits should do very little to you. You should be using the consolidation stratagem to tie up units that don't want to be in combat (so shouldn't do much return hitting either).
To mitigate morale losses (in both yours and your opponents turn) we actually already have a number of options. Warboss on bike (or not) breaking heads. An unit of 30-40 boys jumped up field within 6".
You reckon it's worth spending a CP to take this additional WL trait when we have so many other things to spend the CP on? I can't see it.
Oh I don't think it is good, or rather it is not a competitive option to use.
If someone wanted to play the speed waagh, and they wanted to use the consolidate stratagem, it could be useful. Speed waagh is all about the souble move stratagem, everything else is somewhat meh. Especially if for some reason they cannot take index units.
If your Speed Freekz need a double move to get to something (especially after the Evil Sunz +2 to Move/+1 Advance/+1 Charge) and the Biker Boss/Wartrike Move+Advance+Charge), you're playing on a huge board, or you have really poor positioning.
I have found the consolidate stratagem to be pure gold. If you roll average 6-8" you usually have no problems surrounding some nearby model, keeping your bikers safe from shooting. If you are running a wartrike getting the relic and the consolidate stratagem is nice.
Not game-breaking, but none of the vigilus stuff is.
So with orks being a favorite to win the LVO I thought it'd be fun if we guessed what the top performing ork list consists of. I think we can all assume the base of the list will have the usual loota bomb, grots, and few boyz squads so it's more or less guessing what the last 400 points or so will be used for. Here's my prediction:
Evil Sunz battalion detachment
HQ Bikerboss - relic klaw
Biker Big mek - KFF
Troops
3x30 boyz - 10 shoota/20 choppa - nob w/ BC (1 unit in teleporta)
HQ Big mek - da souped-up shokka
Weirdboy - Fist of Gork
Troops
3x10 grots
I think given the missions kommandos will generally be the best choice to fill the rest of the points because of their flexibility as well as not giving the enemy something juicy to point their expensive guns at. If I were to guess what the second highest unit being played after kommandos was it would probably be a MANZ unit coming out of a teleporta. The problem with MANZ though is you better be sure your getting your points worth in their first charge cause they're gonna be gone in the next shooting phase so I expect most of the top players like Nick Nanavati and Matt Root are gonna be running kommandos. I also heard on a podcast the other day that around 58% of the ork players are fielding the dread waaaagh detachment from Vigilus so da souped-up shokka I think will have pretty high representation in the top lists, which makes sense. It's basically a lottery ticket with the potential of nearly one shotting a knight, and with the lack of anything else in the list that can do serious damage (other than a bikerboss) I think players are gonna be using command re-rolls a lot to try and get 11+ strength on that thing.
Loota star has one lethal weakness for sake of tournament wins. Loota star is dead meat vs eldar soup. And guess what list is popular at tops? 25 t4 w1 6+ is ridic easy for eldars to shoot
flaming tadpole wrote: I also heard on a podcast the other day that around 58% of the ork players are fielding the dread waaaagh detachment from Vigilus so da souped-up shokka I think will have pretty high representation in the top lists, which makes sense. It's basically a lottery ticket with the potential of nearly one shotting a knight, and with the lack of anything else in the list that can do serious damage (other than a bikerboss) I think players are gonna be using command re-rolls a lot to try and get 11+ strength on that thing.
Da souped up shokka can one-shot a dominus class knight almost 8 times over. I'm surprised it's that popular of a detachment though, most people online seem to be meh on it, I personally love it and have been a staunch defender but I like the "fun" randomness it brings to the tabletop.
Overall I'd be really surprised if Orks win the LVO, the loota star is too easily countered and I'm just not sure if there's an Ork list that's as efficient of a TAC list like Eldar soup can bring. I'm guessing a very DE heavy space elf list will win. We'll see I guess but ITC have some rules oddities so my own personal experience won't be a 1to1 match with how that game works.
Will the new bolter rules be in effect for the LVO? I'm guessing it's too late for GSC codex but those guys will be something to watch out for later in the year I reckon.
Edit: If codex GSC are allowed then bringing a loota bomb is suicide, that tactic is just not viable if two armies (one established as strong and the other one certainly looking the part) can just negate grot shields.
flaming tadpole wrote: I also heard on a podcast the other day that around 58% of the ork players are fielding the dread waaaagh detachment from Vigilus so da souped-up shokka I think will have pretty high representation in the top lists, which makes sense. It's basically a lottery ticket with the potential of nearly one shotting a knight, and with the lack of anything else in the list that can do serious damage (other than a bikerboss) I think players are gonna be using command re-rolls a lot to try and get 11+ strength on that thing.
Da souped up shokka can one-shot a dominus class knight almost 8 times over. I'm surprised it's that popular of a detachment though, most people online seem to be meh on it, I personally love it and have been a staunch defender but I like the "fun" randomness it brings to the tabletop.
Overall I'd be really surprised if Orks win the LVO, the loota star is too easily countered and I'm just not sure if there's an Ork list that's as efficient of a TAC list like Eldar soup can bring. I'm guessing a very DE heavy space elf list will win. We'll see I guess but ITC have some rules oddities so my own personal experience won't be a 1to1 match with how that game works.
Will the new bolter rules be in effect for the LVO? I'm guessing it's too late for GSC codex but those guys will be something to watch out for later in the year I reckon.
Edit: If codex GSC are allowed then bringing a loota bomb is suicide, that tactic is just not viable if two armies (one established as strong and the other one certainly looking the part) can just negate grot shields.
Max wounds isn't that important as averages though. If maximum was what counted grots would be most broken shooting unit in the game ;-)
No bolter rule in LVO. It came out well after rules were set in stone. Nor will GSC codex allowed.
Yeah loota star's days are growing thinner and thinner at least in terms of tournaments. Odds of running to one and losing due to it becomes more and more likely.
Last time I heard I think DE make up like 7-8% of the field, including soup, so I suppose it's possible to not run into them if your lucky but they definitely will be the biggest issue for orks making the top 8. They do have some ways to play around them though, especially with the terrain rules that are gonna be present at LVO it's very possible the ork players will be able to play keep away until they can bring in the rest of their army for a mass assault turn 2. I'd give that matchup probably a 60/40 in favor of DE though.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Can someone better than me at maths compare 8pt Hand flamer acolytes to our Burna Boyz please? I feel there is a discrepancy there.
How do they compare with a ccw and pistol to Boys for 7ppm?
TIA.
Burna boyz sucks. They have less shooting output than shoota boyz for the points, worse range, less attacks, less everything. The one thing they have is ap in melee, wich is usually not enpught to put a dent in anything. Just dont use burna boyz
An Actual Englishman wrote: Can someone better than me at maths compare 8pt Hand flamer acolytes to our Burna Boyz please? I feel there is a discrepancy there.
How do they compare with a ccw and pistol to Boys for 7ppm?
TIA.
Burna boyz sucks. They have less shooting output than shoota boyz for the points, worse range, less attacks, less everything. The one thing they have is ap in melee, wich is usually not enpught to put a dent in anything. Just dont use burna boyz
Yea I know but I want to see how big a difference there is mathematically between them and Acolytes.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Can someone better than me at maths compare 8pt Hand flamer acolytes to our Burna Boyz please? I feel there is a discrepancy there.
How do they compare with a ccw and pistol to Boys for 7ppm?
TIA.
Burna boyz sucks. They have less shooting output than shoota boyz for the points, worse range, less attacks, less everything. The one thing they have is ap in melee, wich is usually not enpught to put a dent in anything. Just dont use burna boyz
About only use I have came up with them is use them to spam more KMB mek's with deathskull. And not sure even then is it worth but if index is allowed you can cram in 4 KMB and rokkit to trukk all that can reroll everything.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Can someone better than me at maths compare 8pt Hand flamer acolytes to our Burna Boyz please? I feel there is a discrepancy there.
How do they compare with a ccw and pistol to Boys for 7ppm?
TIA.
Burna boyz sucks. They have less shooting output than shoota boyz for the points, worse range, less attacks, less everything. The one thing they have is ap in melee, wich is usually not enpught to put a dent in anything. Just dont use burna boyz
About only use I have came up with them is use them to spam more KMB mek's with deathskull. And not sure even then is it worth but if index is allowed you can cram in 4 KMB and rokkit to trukk all that can reroll everything.
I've thought about doing that, but there are some issues.
1. The spanners in the burna squads have 1 wound am i right? This would mean a hit roll of 1 would outright kill them. This makes them worse than their mek collegues.
2. At the current burna boy price would it not just be easier to replace them with regular tankbustas? 10 rokkits with 1 reroll would still be better than 2 blastas with full rerolls yes?
Let's all cross our collective Ork digits for some changes in the March FAQ. Even though, assuming we even get a change, it'd still most likely just be a point drop.
With their current rules, what would you even take them at, 8?
An Actual Englishman wrote: Can someone better than me at maths compare 8pt Hand flamer acolytes to our Burna Boyz please? I feel there is a discrepancy there.
How do they compare with a ccw and pistol to Boys for 7ppm?
TIA.
Burna boyz sucks. They have less shooting output than shoota boyz for the points, worse range, less attacks, less everything. The one thing they have is ap in melee, wich is usually not enpught to put a dent in anything. Just dont use burna boyz
About only use I have came up with them is use them to spam more KMB mek's with deathskull. And not sure even then is it worth but if index is allowed you can cram in 4 KMB and rokkit to trukk all that can reroll everything.
I've thought about doing that, but there are some issues.
1. The spanners in the burna squads have 1 wound am i right? This would mean a hit roll of 1 would outright kill them. This makes them worse than their mek collegues.
2. At the current burna boy price would it not just be easier to replace them with regular tankbustas? 10 rokkits with 1 reroll would still be better than 2 blastas with full rerolls yes?
Odds of cooking yourself is 1/36 if you play safe, somewhat more if you risk it. But yes worry.
And yes 10 rokkits will bust tanks better but you should be aiming to head where 8 burnas will at least torch infantry while kmb hunts tanks. Plus you can have both.
Not saying it's competive but if i was going for burnas that seems like least bad way to do it
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PiñaColada wrote: Let's all cross our collective Ork digits for some changes in the March FAQ. Even though, assuming we even get a change, it'd still most likely just be a point drop.
With their current rules, what would you even take them at, 8?
8 would be pretty good. 1 pts for burna rather than shoota and some ccap modifier.
I think they had a place before Dakkax3, when Eldar and Admech could throw a -2 to hit out and neuter all your ranged options, but between Dakka, Evil Sunz, and Moar Dakka, hitting the target isn't as huge a problem as it used to be.
Anyone have luck with making the relic Shokk Attack Gun into your warlord, and giving them +1 To Wound against Monsters and Vehicles as the Warlord Trait?
Rolling low strength is one of the biggest weaknesses the Souped Up Shokka has, that and rolling number of shots. A +1 To Wound means that, against the most important targets, you're never wounding worse than a 5+, and with decent dice you'll get 3+ or even 2+ pretty easily.
Is it worth making him your Warlord, though? That remains to be seen.
If burnas either went down to 8pts or became d6 at their current price I think they'd be decent. The problem with them is you have to give them a transport though which basically makes them viable only in specific lists like bonebreakas.
SemperMortis wrote: The thing with Tankbusta bombs....you really only need 1 per mob....yeah they are free upgrades but who cares? Just kill him last, you can only ever use 1 per shooting phase anyway and realistically if you waste the CP on the grenade strat using a boyz mob you are so desperate that the game is probably already out of hand....which would be weird because I usually run out of CP by the end of turn 3ish if I am being conservative.
You still need specific model to represent. If you are "he's the one I kill last" then you are cheating either intentionally or unintentionally but nevertheless gaining definite advantage with it. Ergo any bombs MUST be identifiable in the unit. "he's the last boy I remove" doesn't cut it.
(and incidentally same reason is also reason why you want 3 in mob of 30 so 3 specific models)
I meant you only need 1 Tankbusta Bomb model instead of 3 per mob because the other 2 are just extra bodies. So just remove your 1 tankbusta bomb model LAST as opposed to having to make more models with Tankbusta bombs. I was not saying cheat or model for advantage or any other nonsense. I was merely pointing out that the "Buff" of getting 3 tankbusta bombs per mob is horsegak at best because realistically you can only use 1 a turn.
SemperMortis wrote: The thing with Tankbusta bombs....you really only need 1 per mob....yeah they are free upgrades but who cares? Just kill him last, you can only ever use 1 per shooting phase anyway and realistically if you waste the CP on the grenade strat using a boyz mob you are so desperate that the game is probably already out of hand....which would be weird because I usually run out of CP by the end of turn 3ish if I am being conservative.
You still need specific model to represent. If you are "he's the one I kill last" then you are cheating either intentionally or unintentionally but nevertheless gaining definite advantage with it. Ergo any bombs MUST be identifiable in the unit. "he's the last boy I remove" doesn't cut it.
(and incidentally same reason is also reason why you want 3 in mob of 30 so 3 specific models)
I meant you only need 1 Tankbusta Bomb model instead of 3 per mob because the other 2 are just extra bodies. So just remove your 1 tankbusta bomb model LAST as opposed to having to make more models with Tankbusta bombs. I was not saying cheat or model for advantage or any other nonsense. I was merely pointing out that the "Buff" of getting 3 tankbusta bombs per mob is horsegak at best because realistically you can only use 1 a turn.
And I'm saying the exact same reason why you can't just go "last model removed is the one with tank busta" is the same reason why there IS point for having 3.
PiñaColada wrote: Is you big mek a SAG big mek? If so, check out the relic from the dread waaagh detachment in Vigilus defiant. It's 2d6 shots instead of 1d6. That guy is going to wreck face if he gets to hit on 4's.
About that... I have used that relic three times so far and it did next to nothing. As soon as -1 to hit or invul saves are involved the 2d6 shots hitting on 5+ simply don't cut it. Two hits which might be wounding on fives have not been doing much for me, and I'm not wasting the shooting phase re-roll on the strength roll. The dead shiny shoota I have been running just for the heck of it has killed more than the relic SAG and costs less CP.
The relic gets you on average 7 shots for 2 hits with 1 roll of a 1 and a roll of a 6 which means two rerolls, one of which can reroll a 1 again, overall its almost exactly 3 hits a turn on average. Average strength is 7 as well. I have had amazing luck with this thing, I was about to kill a Broadside in a single round of shooting with it, and than used the shoot twice strat to kill his buddy. Basically earning my points back and than some with 1 round of shooting and some CP
PiñaColada wrote: Is you big mek a SAG big mek? If so, check out the relic from the dread waaagh detachment in Vigilus defiant. It's 2d6 shots instead of 1d6. That guy is going to wreck face if he gets to hit on 4's.
About that... I have used that relic three times so far and it did next to nothing. As soon as -1 to hit or invul saves are involved the 2d6 shots hitting on 5+ simply don't cut it. Two hits which might be wounding on fives have not been doing much for me, and I'm not wasting the shooting phase re-roll on the strength roll. The dead shiny shoota I have been running just for the heck of it has killed more than the relic SAG and costs less CP.
The relic gets you on average 7 shots for 2 hits with 1 roll of a 1 and a roll of a 6 which means two rerolls, one of which can reroll a 1 again, overall its almost exactly 3 hits a turn on average. Average strength is 7 as well. I have had amazing luck with this thing, I was about to kill a Broadside in a single round of shooting with it, and than used the shoot twice strat to kill his buddy. Basically earning my points back and than some with 1 round of shooting and some CP
It bears mentioning that this IS a Shokk Attack Gun. It's the very definition of unreliable.
I played two games with it yesterday, both against Tyranids. The first game, I nuked the Swarmlord and three Tyrant Guard in one round of shooting. (Albeit a round where I spent command points to fire twice.)
The next game, I put five wounds on a Hive Tyrant, also spending two command points to fire twice.
Since we are discussing the (amongst other things) souped up shocka. I used it last game and while it didn't do much whole game it then made it's points back 4 times over by one shotting a Doom Ark and 2 castellan robots (it was a 2v2). But we ran into an issue, does the SAG keep it's strength for the whole shooting phase when fired twice? Or do I need to reroll its strength when I fire it again with the Vigilus stratagem.
AFAIK you never keep the strength unless specifically stated. So the lootas keep it for the phase since they mention that. Everything else you roll for again
Edit: I meant stats, not strength, in the sentence above
Castozor wrote: Since we are discussing the (amongst other things) souped up shocka. I used it last game and while it didn't do much whole game it then made it's points back 4 times over by one shotting a Doom Ark and 2 castellan robots (it was a 2v2). But we ran into an issue, does the SAG keep it's strength for the whole shooting phase when fired twice? Or do I need to reroll its strength when I fire it again with the Vigilus stratagem.
I always play you have to reroll everything, but that is something I would like to see get answered because it is a fairly important question.
Castozor wrote: Since we are discussing the (amongst other things) souped up shocka. I used it last game and while it didn't do much whole game it then made it's points back 4 times over by one shotting a Doom Ark and 2 castellan robots (it was a 2v2). But we ran into an issue, does the SAG keep it's strength for the whole shooting phase when fired twice? Or do I need to reroll its strength when I fire it again with the Vigilus stratagem.
I always play you have to reroll everything, but that is something I would like to see get answered because it is a fairly important question.
It's actually rather clear in a sense. NORMALLY as per rulebook if you roll some d6/d3/whatever for stat etc it's for the phase. HOWEVER for attacks specifically rulebook says they are rolled every time you make attack. Ie not for phase. Why GW knows. In any case this means SAG, since it's making attack, rolls all random stats again when it shoots. Movement addition by say advancing meanwhile would be for the phase so if you advance and roll 3" and have ability to move again in same movement phase that's 3" again.
For lootas there's specific exception in their rules so it's through shooting phase. No such exception to SAG. Ergo it follows rulebook and rolls again those stats.
Very clear eh?-) Why GW went for this convoluted way I don't know. Funnily enough lootas have exception to exception. That's not common even for GW game!
I find it really comical they mention Killa Kanz get the Dread Waaagh keyword. Theres no clause to give them access to the strats so its literally for the warlord trait repair bonus...lame
PiñaColada wrote: Is you big mek a SAG big mek? If so, check out the relic from the dread waaagh detachment in Vigilus defiant. It's 2d6 shots instead of 1d6. That guy is going to wreck face if he gets to hit on 4's.
About that... I have used that relic three times so far and it did next to nothing. As soon as -1 to hit or invul saves are involved the 2d6 shots hitting on 5+ simply don't cut it. Two hits which might be wounding on fives have not been doing much for me, and I'm not wasting the shooting phase re-roll on the strength roll. The dead shiny shoota I have been running just for the heck of it has killed more than the relic SAG and costs less CP.
The relic gets you on average 7 shots for 2 hits with 1 roll of a 1 and a roll of a 6 which means two rerolls, one of which can reroll a 1 again, overall its almost exactly 3 hits a turn on average. Average strength is 7 as well. I have had amazing luck with this thing, I was about to kill a Broadside in a single round of shooting with it, and than used the shoot twice strat to kill his buddy. Basically earning my points back and than some with 1 round of shooting and some CP
The thing with average is that you are not evaluating how likely those averages are. The SAG is highly unreliable as you can get any combination of high strength and low shots, low strength and high shots, low strength and low shots which end up simply not doing jack against your target. Rolling 6 (or worse) for strength and 6 (or worse) for shots against T7 target is very likely to happen and suddenly you find yourself looking a two hits wounding on fives, and simply not wounding at all on average without deff skulls. Since games tend to be decided by turn three or four, you get three tries at best to roll a lucky combination of high strength and decent shots (let's say anything five and higher), and then not fail your hit or wounding rolls.
Or you happen to face Allaitoc, Nurgle or Knights, then the SAG will simply suck unless you get really lucky.
The SAG is a decent cheap HQ, but the souped up version is not worth 2CP in my opinion.
Eh, 2CP isn't that steep for something that has the potential to win a game. Obviously those games are gonna be few and far between unless you start investing command rerolls, but very rarely is it not at least going to make back its points and then some. It's not amazing but when you need a HQ for your third battalion anyways I'd say its worth a roll of the dice more times than not.
few times ive ran a SAG i can say its atleast done something every game. Unlike previous editions where every like 30 or so games i'll get boxcars and delete something but the other 30 games i delete myself or shoot myself across the board or roll a strength i cant even hurt with at all
The thing with average is that you are not evaluating how likely those averages are. The SAG is highly unreliable as you can get any combination of high strength and low shots, low strength and high shots, low strength and low shots which end up simply not doing jack against your target. Rolling 6 (or worse) for strength and 6 (or worse) for shots against T7 target is very likely to happen and suddenly you find yourself looking a two hits wounding on fives, and simply not wounding at all on average without deff skulls. Since games tend to be decided by turn three or four, you get three tries at best to roll a lucky combination of high strength and decent shots (let's say anything five and higher), and then not fail your hit or wounding rolls.
Or you happen to face Allaitoc, Nurgle or Knights, then the SAG will simply suck unless you get really lucky. The SAG is a decent cheap HQ, but the souped up version is not worth 2CP in my opinion.
I'm of the completely different opinion. Now don't get me wrong, 2CP is steep, and the weapon is still unreliable but the improvements are well worth it IMO. If you aren't playing Bad Moons (or you are but want the "showin' off" strat elsewhere) then you get access to "kustom ammo". He's a character so assuming you put him in a ruin and screened him properly (and "splurged" on the oiler) he's fairly tough to bring down. If someone shoots him down you can use "Orkz is never beaten", which you can do on the non-relic version as well but 1d6 shots is probably never worth it. So a lot of situational improvements are introduced or just more viable with the relic in addition to the extra d6 shots.
Plus, a character in you backfield surrounded by a unit of grots should surive a couple of turns easily. If he gets 4 turns of shooting then he should be able to nuke something. Or at the very least make your opponent vary of where he's placing stuff. I like the guy and I do want to try and use him alongside a normal SAG big mek at some point. I don't think that's a great build but it's pretty fun when your backline artillery consists of untargetable characters.
The SAG is far too swingy to be a good weapon. Its variance in shots is between 1 and 6 or 2 and 12 if using relic and the variance in strength is between 2 and 12. This on a BS5+ model? No thanks.
There's too many times I've seen people shoot vehicles with this thing only to roll weak strength or roll high strength but miss all of their shots. Sure - if you're lucky you might get a good result but the same can be said of a ton of our weapons and as Jidmah said - invulnerables, FNP and - to hit mods kill the weapon dead.
E - the SAG has decent synergy with Mek guns, if you're going that way. Able to repair them every turn isn't bad (but it means the SAG has less visibility as he can't sit on a building).
In other news it seems that competitive players are starting to place Orks as a 'gatekeeper' faction which I think is correct. We have shenanigans and strong builds but unfortunately they are about as obvious as an Ork and the majority of them can be easily countered. Lootas + Grot Shields will become irrelevant as more factions get access to a Vect stratagem. Boys are the only troop in the game to go up in points from index to codex and their inefficiencies compared to other units is really starting to show (Acolytes at same points anyone?), our new Buggies are universally too expensive (sometimes hilariously so), our bikes are way too expensive (particularly as all other bikes had a points drop in CA18), sure we can DS a Gorkanaut for 2CP but its obvious what you're doing and the opponent can counter appropriately, we have no real efficient ways to deal with Knights (Orkguinius relies on relics and he dies in the process).
I'm really interested to see what Nick Nanavati does with us and particularly whether he keeps playing Orks after the GSC codex drops. It seems to me that our 'tricks' are known and worse easily countered so we will struggle to compete at the top tables. Thoughts?
116 boyz in his list. 3 groups of 28 and 3 groups of 10 to mob up with. Almost guarentees he will get off green tide once or twice during the game so expect to chew through about 150+ boyz if you up againgst him.
I don't have the BCP app but I thought the LVO lists are online right now? Anyone in this thread eager to confirm & dig up Nicks list? (and any other "big name" players' ork lists)
I'd also be interested since he's clearly a tier 1 player (and the guy who really brought attention to shining spears at last years LVO if memory serves) so it'd be cool to see what he brings
Edit: Somewhat ninjad. Can you post the list if you have access to it Eihnlazer?
Eihnlazer wrote: Nicks going with a classic FLOOD the board list.
116 boyz in his list. 3 groups of 28 and 3 groups of 10 to mob up with. Almost guarentees he will get off green tide once or twice during the game so expect to chew through about 150+ boyz if you up againgst him.
Those mobups prevent greentide though.
And getting it off twice would be quite a trick seeing it's one use only ;-)
He's doing the standard evil sunz boyz and bad moons lootastar.
It's a fairly one dimensional list for him, but when your playing orcz that's probably the only way to go.
I cant see him having any trouble with any army but Druhkari tbh.
As for other big names, I don't have the top 50 ITC memorized so didn't notice if there was anyone else. Although, I heard 60 out of the top 100 players on ITC were attending.
Okay thanks. Man I don't know, horde orks plus loota star doesn't seem like it's top tier to me. You'll have to assume that what 25ish% of all the matchups will be space elf soup with access to Vect and then you're most likely borked. I guess it might do well here but that list is surely dead when the GSC codex is also allowed (and boyz spam will have a tougher time when bolters get their beta rule implemented)
Maybe there are some nuances in the ITC ruleset that really switches things up but that doesn't scream winning list to me.
ITC is great for Green tide. You can stick boyz inside enclosed ruins and the only thing that can hit them is ignore LOS weaponry. The list is basically immune to mortal wound spam because of the amount of models it has.
It will have a rough time againgst Druhkari as I stated, but atm that's the only thing scaring it other than triple gallants with Emporer's wrath mortars and hydras.
Im playing nids and I am absolutely terrified of this list. I cant do anything about the lootas since he's just gonna completely surround them with the rest of his guys. Turn 1 he kills my swarmlord with the lootas, then starts deleting my units 1 by 1 and I cant kill the boyz fast enough to stop it.
My only chance is if I can go first and somehow kill all the grotz turn 1. Then my hive guard will be free to smoke his lootaz and boyz over the course of the game.
The enclosed ruin rule could come into effect (sidenote, I hate that rule) but most ruins aren't going to be big enough to house 30 boyz are they? Especially for them all to be 1"+ away from every single wall for that rule to be really abuseable
Edit: And yeah, I understand that your nids might have a tough time against this list. It's certainly strong but as you noted Drukhari are going to be real tough on it. One would assume plenty of space elf soup, hence my doubt about it. For later tournaments you can easily slot in a small detachment of Cult of the 4-armed emperor for that "Vect" strat to easily counter grot shields. Meaning even if this list works here, it seems like it's the last huzzah for it when both eldar soup and tyranid soup can counter it
PiñaColada wrote: He's a character so assuming you put him in a ruin and screened him properly (and "splurged" on the oiler) he's fairly tough to bring down.
My experience is quite the opposite. Some combi-bolters from terminators, seraphim, jump characters, any harlequin unit of your choice, bloat drones, inceptors, TS psykers, a flyer or just simply snipers and the SAG is gone. In a meta where I keep losing 2-3 death guard characters per turn (4W/T5/3+/5++), a T4/4+ model has no chance of surviving multiple turns.
If someone shoots him down you can use "Orkz is never beaten", which you can do on the non-relic version as well but 1d6 shots is probably never worth it. So a lot of situational improvements are introduced or just more viable with the relic in addition to the extra d6 shots.
If I do, I have now spent 4 CP on something that has a decent chance of doing absolutely nothing, which is almost an entire battalion worth of CP. I could just bring two SAG instead of the one relic and have more CP to spend on other stuff.
Plus, a character in you backfield surrounded by a unit of grots should surive a couple of turns easily. If he gets 4 turns of shooting then he should be able to nuke something.
Quick run-down of its fate during my last 4 games: 1) Killed by a troupe turn 2 that wanted to take the objective he was sitting on. They shot a hole in grot screen with the help of their transport and plasma grenades. 2) Killed turn 2 by seraphin. The screen was wiped out using the burning decent stratagem so the sisters were free to shoot the mek out of its ruin. If he had survived the pistols, they could have charged him. 3) Killed turn 3 by a Hemlock Wraithfigher seeking to score a "kill a character" maelstrom objective. 4) Killed turn 1 by Illic and some rangers after admittedly dealing some nice damage to a hornet, almost killing it.
Or at the very least make your opponent vary of where he's placing stuff. I like the guy and I do want to try and use him alongside a normal SAG big mek at some point. I don't think that's a great build but it's pretty fun when your backline artillery consists of untargetable characters.
At least in my metagame every player has some space in his list reserved to target backfield units, since you basically auto-lose maelstrom and most of the CA2018 missions if you don't. SAG meks are easy targets for most fast or deep-striking units, and gretchin either keep bleeding models due to excess bolters and stubbers (or similar xenos weapons) or get wiped out to get VP or clear space for turn 2 deep strikers.
In general, this is not a huge problem as gretchin and SAG are dirt cheap for what they do, but the two extra CP feel wasted most of the times, since I could just be running another relic for less CP.
Eihnlazer wrote: ITC is great for Green tide. You can stick boyz inside enclosed ruins and the only thing that can hit them is ignore LOS weaponry. The list is basically immune to mortal wound spam because of the amount of models it has.
It will have a rough time againgst Druhkari as I stated, but atm that's the only thing scaring it other than triple gallants with Emporer's wrath mortars and hydras.
Im playing nids and I am absolutely terrified of this list. I cant do anything about the lootas since he's just gonna completely surround them with the rest of his guys. Turn 1 he kills my swarmlord with the lootas, then starts deleting my units 1 by 1 and I cant kill the boyz fast enough to stop it.
My only chance is if I can go first and somehow kill all the grotz turn 1. Then my hive guard will be free to smoke his lootaz and boyz over the course of the game.
Is LVO really so light on terrain that you can't protect swarmlord from lootas? Here you can hide a knight...
PiñaColada wrote: He's a character so assuming you put him in a ruin and screened him properly (and "splurged" on the oiler) he's fairly tough to bring down.
My experience is quite the opposite. Some combi-bolters from terminators, seraphim, jump characters, any harlequin unit of your choice, bloat drones, inceptors, TS psykers, a flyer or just simply snipers and the SAG is gone. In a meta where I keep losing 2-3 death guard characters per turn (4W/T5/3+/5++), a T4/4+ model has no chance of surviving multiple turns.
Where those grots are? Flyer shouldn't even be legally possible to park next to SAG. Lots of deepstriking to remove both grots AND SAG seeing all bolters etc from enemy DZ should be long way from having range.
Castozor wrote: Since we are discussing the (amongst other things) souped up shocka. I used it last game and while it didn't do much whole game it then made it's points back 4 times over by one shotting a Doom Ark and 2 castellan robots (it was a 2v2). But we ran into an issue, does the SAG keep it's strength for the whole shooting phase when fired twice? Or do I need to reroll its strength when I fire it again with the Vigilus stratagem.
Read the rules in the BRB about randomized characteristics.
tneva82 wrote: Where those grots are? Flyer shouldn't even be legally possible to park next to SAG.
Those grots were mostly riddled with shurikens, playing dead. A unit of shining spears cleared them out with their catapults since they didn't want to shoot the target they were going to charge. There was a smite from the hemlock and probably some other shooting involved, but the majority died to the bike's shuriken catapults. With the unit wiped out, the hemlock was the closest model and fried him.
Lots of deepstriking to remove both grots AND SAG seeing all bolters etc from enemy DZ should be long way from having range.
The only thing of those four that deep struck was the sisters. The sisters player usually runs three units of dominions in repressors, those are plenty of bolters exactly where you don't want them. Also a friggin' annoying road-block for both boyz and wagons.
Keep in mind that they aren't just killing gretchin and a SAG, they are usually doing that in order to get more VP. In the case of the sisters, this was the eternal war mission from CA2018 where the objective in the enemies's deployment zone was worth 3VP at the end of each battle round. This move basically won them the game, despite getting butchered by boyz on the front lines.
Its not light on terrain but you cant escape from lootas. They can just "Da Jump" the lootas to somewhere they can see him and nuke him.
There is literally no way to hide a monster or vehicle from the lootas on turn 1. Granted, you can make it a trade (make the lootas jump away from their grot shield to get the target) which might not always be favorable for the orcz.
The souped up SAG is fantastic. Consider, its -5 AP, even if you roll a low str, it can still do some serious work. Last game, I killed two Leman Russes (with relatively poor rolls). Previous game, a lascannon predator (it really performed poorly in this game, but still more than made up its points). Game before that, 11 hp to an Imperial Knight and a handful of wulfen. YMMV, but I suggest you forget about trying to rationalize it with math hammer - there are too many variables and just use it for a few games.
I mean I understand Jidmahs point, if the relic SAG hasn't been doing much in his games other than getting splattered then obviously investing 2CP feels too steep. That hasn't been my case (or Grumblewartz's either it seems).
I think it really comes down to whether you're okay with that investment yielding absolutely nothing every once in a while when playing. I am, even though I burn through CP like it's nothing (I'm guessing all ork players are) I still don't ever regret of going for it and chucking the relic SAG on him.
PiñaColada wrote: Okay thanks. Man I don't know, horde orks plus loota star doesn't seem like it's top tier to me. You'll have to assume that what 25ish% of all the matchups will be space elf soup with access to Vect and then you're most likely borked. I guess it might do well here but that list is surely dead when the GSC codex is also allowed (and boyz spam will have a tougher time when bolters get their beta rule implemented)
Maybe there are some nuances in the ITC ruleset that really switches things up but that doesn't scream winning list to me.
All space elf variants combined make up about 18% of the field with DE being included in around 8% last time I checked. That was before the last 100 or so lists had been added so it might have gone up slightly since then, but either way your odds of drawing a matchup against DE are 10% at best at least in the earlier rounds. I don't necessarily think orks will win the whole thing, but I'd be surprised if we didn't have at least one representative in the top 8 given we have 2 of the top 5 current ITC players using them.
Its not light on terrain but you cant escape from lootas. They can just "Da Jump" the lootas to somewhere they can see him and nuke him.
There is literally no way to hide a monster or vehicle from the lootas on turn 1. Granted, you can make it a trade (make the lootas jump away from their grot shield to get the target) which might not always be favorable for the orcz.
True that. But then swarmlord in exchange of loota bomb. You can da jump lootas yes. Grots less so. And not many have enough bad moon grots to cover multiple locations sufficiently(3x10 is laughably small screen)
PiñaColada wrote: Okay thanks. Man I don't know, horde orks plus loota star doesn't seem like it's top tier to me. You'll have to assume that what 25ish% of all the matchups will be space elf soup with access to Vect and then you're most likely borked. I guess it might do well here but that list is surely dead when the GSC codex is also allowed (and boyz spam will have a tougher time when bolters get their beta rule implemented)
Maybe there are some nuances in the ITC ruleset that really switches things up but that doesn't scream winning list to me.
All space elf variants combined make up about 18% of the field with DE being included in around 8% last time I checked. That was before the last 100 or so lists had been added so it might have gone up slightly since then, but either way your odds of drawing a matchup against DE are 10% at best at least in the earlier rounds. I don't necessarily think orks will win the whole thing, but I'd be surprised if we didn't have at least one representative in the top 8 given we have 2 of the top 5 current ITC players using them.
18% and 5 games so odds would be good you meet at least one in any case. ESPECIALLY if you are going for the top spots which means, funnily enough, that you are playing against other top spot teams which, funnily enough, tend to be heavily involve aeldar soup since it's either aeldar or imperium soup that's generally dominating top spots. Sure there are tau, grey knights etc but since those aren't fighting for top that much they are of less concern if you are aiming for winning tournament.
8% not 18%. 18% is the total representation of all space elf lists. In any case you act as if your just gonna auto lose against DE, I can't help you if that's been your personal experience but if that was the reality orks wouldn't be winning GT's like they have been where, funnily enough, a lot of aeldar soup is present.
It's certainly not an auto-lose matchup but the loota bomb feels like a liability when facing them since it's hard countered. Not that I personally like the loota bomb strategy but I'm happy to be proven wrong.
Do you need the BCP app to see which players are bringing what army or is that just needed to see the specific lists? I'm guessing an IG,Castellan & 3xshield captain combo is going to be laughably common. A winnable, but not perhaps easily so, matchup for an ork horde list.
Have Orks won any major tournaments? Haven't really kept up.
I just run a mini-Loota Bomb now. 15 with a 3x10 Grot Screen. 25 Lootaz and 60+ Grots to guard them is just a heavy investment, in points and CP. I feel like you should bring some Lootas, but not base your entire list around them.
Without going into nit-pick territory, plan for losing lots of models (damage output is up this edition) and consider Mek Gunz for a useful addition to the list of available units.
