The most compelling part for me was when Rick used the pigs as zombie chum... and that's tragicbecause it’s a betrayal of the innocent by someone decent who’s been forced by circumstance into unimaginable ruthlessness... Andrew Lincoln played it PERFECT too... big emotion would have made the scene ridiculous but that understatement makes it feel like he’s doing all he can to hold it together amid the horror of what he’s doing. I'd argue that the overall cast's acting is getting better... the nuances for scenes like this just sells.
That may have been the stated reason, but really I think it represented Rick's desire to set down the gun and pick up the shovel. Of course, we saw where that dream went at the end with his actions in the truck.
And attribute it to what you will, but the end result is that they've let down their guard. The fence outside may make them feel safe, but the lack of guards inside cell blocks is just plain reckless.
I don't think the rats are clearly from anyone. Anything's possible, but I hesitate to jump on board believing that the seemingly squeamish little girl is catching live rats and feeding them to zombies.
The most compelling part for me was when Rick used the pigs as zombie chum... and that's tragicbecause it’s a betrayal of the innocent by someone decent who’s been forced by circumstance into unimaginable ruthlessness... Andrew Lincoln played it PERFECT too... big emotion would have made the scene ridiculous but that understatement makes it feel like he’s doing all he can to hold it together amid the horror of what he’s doing. I'd argue that the overall cast's acting is getting better... the nuances for scenes like this just sells.
Spoiler:
Totally agree, and while the blood in the face might have been a smidge over the top, Lincoln really made it work.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote: @whembly: To be fair to Rick, they were talking about getting rid of the pigs since they were probably infected.
@gorgon: I was saying they should just lock each block at night or lock their own doors. Leave the keys on a hook near the door and they'll be fine.
If there's one key per cell, I guess that would work. But maybe they don't want to sleep and live under lock and key. Seems to me that they just need two people a night, each with a 4-hour shift. They wouldn't even have to be fighters...they just need to be able to make noise and wake people up if something happened.
@Gorgon. I think the person feeding them rats is the little girl because she's trying to make friends with them. And then I think the person who burned the bodies is basically an extremist who thinks they are doing it for the good of the group. In fact Carol would be my lead suspect.
I don't think there's a "traitor" per se. Now maybe I'm being naive but also I don't want there to be a traitor/infiltrator because I would find that contrived and tired.
Ayah we don't need the usual traitor scenario. Frankly, in a world where the only security is the jail and your group, surrounded by things trying to kill you, its an excellent motivational againat betrayal.
Rick put the gun and hat down to be a role model for Carl so he doesn't grow up and use the gun first then try to talk to people.
If they constantly talk about making sure the prison will be permanent, they Are doing JACK -blank- to keep it that way. There are tons of things they could do to make the area safer.
Frazzled wrote: Ayah we don't need the usual traitor scenario. Frankly, in a world where the only security is the jail and your group, surrounded by things trying to kill you, its an excellent motivational againat betrayal.
Yes, and like you I'm not exactly looking forward to the inevitable "Return of The Govenor". A Gubnatorial secret agent hastens his return and also is lame.
Frazzled wrote: Ayah we don't need the usual traitor scenario. Frankly, in a world where the only security is the jail and your group, surrounded by things trying to kill you, its an excellent motivational againat betrayal.
Yes, and like you I'm not exactly looking forward to the inevitable "Return of The Govenor". A Gubnatorial secret agent hastens his return and also is lame.
Agreed on both counts. The Governor's losing it at the end and killing a bunch of people kind of sealed the deal no?
Frazzled wrote: Ayah we don't need the usual traitor scenario. Frankly, in a world where the only security is the jail and your group, surrounded by things trying to kill you, its an excellent motivational againat betrayal.
Yes, and like you I'm not exactly looking forward to the inevitable "Return of The Govenor". A Gubnatorial secret agent hastens his return and also is lame.
Agreed on both counts. The Governor's losing it at the end and killing a bunch of people kind of sealed the deal no?
For cliched lameness or why people wouldn't work with that guy?
Not seen the 2nd ep yet - but I think the one girl thinks they are still "different humans" as thats what everyone officially thought in the nice little town she lived happly in with her friends, and power, and gardens and mod cons - and real houses............not prison cells
That nice safe town that worked fine till a bunch of nutters shot the place up and then started a war with them and dragged them all out to a dirty smelly unsafe prison surrounded by loads of "different" people who want to eat them - at least that s what I think she and some of the former townsfolk are thinking?
Byte wrote: Why don't they create a flame thrower type weapon and burn the zombies at/off the fence?
Using logic in a zombie apocalypse is not possible. finding some fuel, a squirt gun and spraying the group at the fence then lighting them on fire with a torch is NOT POSSIBLE and not a prioirty for the group. Taking time to find some clay, Machined wood, steel grill, briquettes to make an out door BBQ pit is more important then making your only god dam home a fortress... but people want a BBQ pit more than they want to be safe.
Flamethrowers aren't really good anti-zombie weapons. They just result in the zombie also being on fire so that when he bites you he also sets you on fire...
Burning them would Cook the brain preventing any synapses from firing killing the zombie outright. they can also burn the flesh and muscle from the bone making it impossible for the zombie to move/bite if the brain survives the burn. A flamethrower is a perfect Zombie weapon
Ninjacommando wrote: Burning them would Cook the brain preventing any synapses from firing killing the zombie outright. they can also burn the flesh and muscle from the bone making it impossible for the zombie to move/bite if the brain survives the burn. A flamethrower is a perfect Zombie weapon
Depending on the situation, perhaps. But its a chain link fence, if you leave burning bodies and have burning fuel sitting on a chain link fence for ages, how long until it starts weakening? I reckon a firepit is a better idea. If there was a break in zombies, dig a pit 10m or so out from the wall, put some fuel in it, light it with an arrow/thrown torch/whatever, then just add some more fuel next time there is a break and do it again. Zombies would continuously fall in, and you'd only need a bit of fuel to burn their feet/ankles so they couldn't stand, then more could fall in, then when its nearing full you could put more fuel in and light it proper, burning them all until they are not functioning. A flamethrower just adds extra things that can go wrong, from the fence being weakened by the fire to a spark setting off the fuel tank and blowing a hole in your perimeter.
Depending on the situation, perhaps. But its a chain link fence, if you leave burning bodies and have burning fuel sitting on a chain link fence for ages, how long until it starts weakening? I reckon a firepit is a better idea. If there was a break in zombies, dig a pit 10m or so out from the wall, put some fuel in it, light it with an arrow/thrown torch/whatever, then just add some more fuel next time there is a break and do it again. Zombies would continuously fall in, and you'd only need a bit of fuel to burn their feet/ankles so they couldn't stand, then more could fall in, then when its nearing full you could put more fuel in and light it proper, burning them all until they are not functioning. A flamethrower just adds extra things that can go wrong, from the fence being weakened by the fire to a spark setting off the fuel tank and blowing a hole in your perimeter.
Eh there are tons of things they could do to make their chain link fence stronger. they could fill that gap between the 2 fences with Dirt. while this would take a few weeks they could manage it if groups go out at a time to dig up the area infront of the outside fence and move the dirt inside. Would take time but something they could do. They could get deisel and get a tractor/trailer head around to each hardware store/gardening store and grab all the big bags of dirt and bring it back to the prison, then stack them along the outer fence to reinforce it (if they want a butt load of sandbags they could head back to the CDC and gather up all the sandbags, along with any weapons that were stored and probably a lot of ammo as well.). heck they could pick up bags of fertilizers for their crops to have a larger yield.
If they wanted to draw the walkers from the prison they could pull a page from Left 4 Dead. Fire alarm buzzers, taped to a pipebomb (could be any explosive device) and then set in an area to draw a "horde" towards it and BAM large group of walkers gone.
Having the two fences is good. It allows them to walk the perimeter in relative safety while having another fence to fall back behind if things go south.
Any dirt should be outside. Dig a ditch and pile the excavated dirt on the prison side of the ditch so any walkers that fall into the ditch then have an earth wall to climb up as well as the ditch iteself.
The people don't seem to be doing anything else so get them fortifying the place. There's a garage full of busses and the like that they could be reinforcing too if needed. Instead they all seem to sit around doing nothing while Daryl goes out and gets dinner for them.
Ninjacommando wrote: Burning them would Cook the brain preventing any synapses from firing killing the zombie outright. they can also burn the flesh and muscle from the bone making it impossible for the zombie to move/bite if the brain survives the burn. A flamethrower is a perfect Zombie weapon
They could just make a nice moat. A dried up muddy creek appeared to be an excellent barrier in the previous season.
Also, get a McCormick Reaper or even a bulldozer. Time for some mechanical advantage boys!
Flame weapons are good in a siege type situation, where you have a large amount of zombies bunched up.... it immobilizes them and also gets rid of the bodies, and if you use molotov cocktails you can find plenty of ammo. And yes with the amount of people there vs. zombies they should have had no problem fortifying the place better... especially considering they still have motor vehicles and gas to move around trees and such. A simple mud field moat with stakes and small animals in cages would have done the trick.... pretty tragic that rick has to sacrifice his precious pigs.
I think some of you folks are overestimating the size of the population and underestimating the size of the fence and the amount of work involved with some of your suggestions. Moving earth with shovels is hard work and most of the women and children aren't going to be able to pitch in. And the Woodbury population seems heavily weighted toward women and children since the Governator drafted most of the men, most of whom died to zombies, Rick's group, or the Gov himself.
They're also looking at potentially hard earth to move. If the weather's been hot and that Georgia red clay has had a chance to bake, you're probably looking at pickaxes and not shovels. Then you have to provide security for the workers, which is similarly labor-intensive AND largely draws on the same pool of able-bodied men.
Digging machines are potentially an answer for the earth-moving problem, but they don't come "free." They'd burn a lot of fuel in transport and in use, and the noise is definitely gonna increase the zombie draw.
With unlimited resources and equipment, sure, build moats, earth dams, deffrollas, and whatever you want. But that's not their situation.
They kinda of explain why they don't use fire on the Talking Dead. Essentially it comes down to two reasons. One, lighting the forest on fire. No using fire after a good long rain storm might still be an option but that leaves issue number 2 which is a giant smoke cloud could attract humans. And while the group is fine letting them in in drips and drabs they haven't had the best luck with other large groups they have met.
As for the rats and the burned people I'm not convinced it's a traitor or someone working for the Gov. It's likely two different people and I wouldn't put it past some crazy in the prison. The bodies could have been the work of anybody since we don't really know the people who moved in. I highly doubt it's a member of the original group or Tyreese/Sasha.
gorgon wrote: I think some of you folks are overestimating the size of the population and underestimating the size of the fence and the amount of work involved with some of your suggestions. Moving earth with shovels is hard work and most of the women and children aren't going to be able to pitch in. And the Woodbury population seems heavily weighted toward women and children since the Governator drafted most of the men, most of whom died to zombies, Rick's group, or the Gov himself.
They're also looking at potentially hard earth to move. If the weather's been hot and that Georgia red clay has had a chance to bake, you're probably looking at pickaxes and not shovels. Then you have to provide security for the workers, which is similarly labor-intensive AND largely draws on the same pool of able-bodied men.
Digging machines are potentially an answer for the earth-moving problem, but they don't come "free." They'd burn a lot of fuel in transport and in use, and the noise is definitely gonna increase the zombie draw.
With unlimited resources and equipment, sure, build moats, earth dams, deffrollas, and whatever you want. But that's not their situation.
Who needs a shovel? Use a tractor and backhoe. Let technology do the work. America Hurr!
The comments in my post about equipment stand. They make the digging easier, but finding, securing, transporting, and operating are all still resource-heavy operations.
gorgon wrote: The comments in my post about equipment stand. They make the digging easier, but finding, securing, transporting, and operating are all still resource-heavy operations.
you're right. they should let Michonne keep looking for comic books/ reading material/ Shaving equipment/GOVNAH! instead of going around the WHOLE GOD DAM STATE writing down the equipment and supplies she comes across. Yup its best to do nothing and let the place you want to last get destoryed by a herd of 20 walkers... Also the Fence only goes around that Area with the field its about 200 yrds long. the other area of the prison is Concrete and brick walls as the overview in season 2 and when tyreese and those other climbed over the rubble has shown.
they have everything they need around them but do jack gak to solve any problems. They are running low on food, they head to the supermarket(which was probably raided during the first days of the infection) instead of heading to truck stops, train yards, distribution centers. Looking in trailer/cargo containers for a large ammount of canned goods.
While not shown they must have taken all the available food from Woodbury with them. Now that place seemed to be operating close to modern standards of living so their food supply must have been pretty good. A town like that would also have had fruit trees and home gardens producing fruit and vegetables.
I would hope that that food supply is still being looked after by teams of people.
Where are the animals though? Some pigs were found and there's a horse, but no cows? I'd at least expect a dog or two. Maybe they die after biting the walkers?
gorgon wrote: The comments in my post about equipment stand. They make the digging easier, but finding, securing, transporting, and operating are all still resource-heavy operations.
you're right. they should let Michonne keep looking for comic books/ reading material/ Shaving equipment/GOVNAH! instead of going around the WHOLE GOD DAM STATE writing down the equipment and supplies she comes across. Yup its best to do nothing and let the place you want to last get destoryed by a herd of 20 walkers... Also the Fence only goes around that Area with the field its about 200 yrds long. the other area of the prison is Concrete and brick walls as the overview in season 2 and when tyreese and those other climbed over the rubble has shown.
they have everything they need around them but do jack gak to solve any problems. They are running low on food, they head to the supermarket(which was probably raided during the first days of the infection) instead of heading to truck stops, train yards, distribution centers. Looking in trailer/cargo containers for a large ammount of canned goods.
Look, I know these zombie apocalypse discussions can have a tendency to degenerate. My point is that some of these things that are being discussed are easily done in a thought experiment, but potentially harder in reality if one assumes even a few reasonable issues with resources and manpower. One wiki says there's 45 people at the prison. Take out the women and children -- and a few that aren't able-bodied, like Herschel -- and it's not exactly an army of workers and fighters.
So the judgment call comes into play -- do you spend possibly significant resources and expose your people to risk in the name of reinforcing fences that were already doing the job? I don't think it's a slam dunk.
Another possibly important general point is that the Woodbury refugees might be as soft as tissue paper given their sheltered lives under the Governor. They aren't hardened, roll-up-your-sleeves types like Rick's group. They might be that they're more of a burden than a help in many ways.
You don't know everything that Michonne is doing when she's out. You don't know whether or not the gas stations are depleted for miles around. You don't know what truck stops/train yards/distribution centers there are in a close driving distance.
Personally, I'm okay with the overall level of versimilitude regarding their actions/non-actions. I'm a little less so in regards to another superbug, but we'll see where that goes. It might not be something that naturally occurred. And from a plot standpoint, I would have liked to be completely done with the Governor plotline, like in the comic. But perhaps it's more realistic that it's not neatly wrapped up and that he's lurking somewhere out there like some kind of beast in the woods.
I think it makes sense that there seem to be plenty of wild animals but not many farm animals and pets. Animals used to regular feedings may have died months ago, and those in fenced areas, barns, pens, etc. would be easier to corner when walkers came calling.
Hulksmash wrote: They kinda of explain why they don't use fire on the Talking Dead. Essentially it comes down to two reasons. One, lighting the forest on fire. No using fire after a good long rain storm might still be an option but that leaves issue number 2 which is a giant smoke cloud could attract humans. And while the group is fine letting them in in drips and drabs they haven't had the best luck with other large groups they have met.
As for the rats and the burned people I'm not convinced it's a traitor or someone working for the Gov. It's likely two different people and I wouldn't put it past some crazy in the prison. The bodies could have been the work of anybody since we don't really know the people who moved in. I highly doubt it's a member of the original group or Tyreese/Sasha.
I bet they do, probably tons of dogs died trying to save their owners and getting caught themselves. A lot would have evaded the walkers though being fitter, faster and more agile. I don't expect many cats got eaten either. Lack of food is a good point, but I would expect some of the survivors to have had dogs. Either their own or ones they'd found along the way. Actually that might explain the lack of dogs - the survivors ate them before learning how to hunt wild animals.
I bet they do, probably tons of dogs died trying to save their owners and getting caught themselves. A lot would have evaded the walkers though being fitter, faster and more agile. I don't expect many cats got eaten either. Lack of food is a good point, but I would expect some of the survivors to have had dogs. Either their own or ones they'd found along the way. Actually that might explain the lack of dogs - the survivors ate them before learning how to hunt wild animals.
Well that and dogs basically attract walkers. Most dogs, even trained guard dogs, their first response to anything is to bark and make lots of noise. This would attract the walkers and be a bad thing.
cadbren wrote: While not shown they must have taken all the available food from Woodbury with them. Now that place seemed to be operating close to modern standards of living so their food supply must have been pretty good. A town like that would also have had fruit trees and home gardens producing fruit and vegetables.
I would hope that that food supply is still being looked after by teams of people.
Where are the animals though? Some pigs were found and there's a horse, but no cows? I'd at least expect a dog or two. Maybe they die after biting the walkers?
Woodbury was a very nice place to live in a appoclypse - hope all the people dragged off to the prison are enjoying the contrast
In the recent episode:
Spoiler:
Not sure why all the pigs needed to die - could Rick have not just dragged one behind the jeep squealing in front of the Dead?
cadbren wrote: While not shown they must have taken all the available food from Woodbury with them. Now that place seemed to be operating close to modern standards of living so their food supply must have been pretty good. A town like that would also have had fruit trees and home gardens producing fruit and vegetables.
I would hope that that food supply is still being looked after by teams of people.
Where are the animals though? Some pigs were found and there's a horse, but no cows? I'd at least expect a dog or two. Maybe they die after biting the walkers?
Thats also a jump the shark. Why did they leave Woodbury? Just go there.
But yes, the above post about inventories etc are correct. At this point they should be expanding, pushing the walkers back with new walls and systems.
Aside of being really violent, thought the way the 'new character wing' in the prison got hit hard in the last episode pretty amusing.
Has anyone here read the comic and can answer:
a) is the show following the plot of the comic closely?
b) If so, is this going to become 'The Waltons with zombies' like season 2, with lots of sitting around talking and less forward progress of plot?
Pacific wrote: Aside of being really violent, thought the way the 'new character wing' in the prison got hit hard in the last episode pretty amusing.
Has anyone here read the comic and can answer:
a) is the show following the plot of the comic closely?
b) If so, is this going to become 'The Waltons with zombies' like season 2, with lots of sitting around talking and less forward progress of plot?
Pacific wrote: Aside of being really violent, thought the way the 'new character wing' in the prison got hit hard in the last episode pretty amusing.
Has anyone here read the comic and can answer:
a) is the show following the plot of the comic closely?
b) If so, is this going to become 'The Waltons with zombies' like season 2, with lots of sitting around talking and less forward progress of plot?
A lot is different.
The war between Woodbury and the prison is totally different. In the comic Woodbury uses an armoured vehicle to crash through the prison fences letting the walkers in while shooting at the people inside from a distance. A lot of people die and the prison is abandoned. Rick's wife Lori is still alive at this point but is shot while running away. The shot kills her and the baby she has in her arms. After the battle is over the people from Woodbury realise that they've been lied to about the people in the prison. The woman who shot Lori is angry that she was tricked into shooting a baby - she kills the Governor.
So the Governor is dead, Woodbury is still populated and the prison is deserted. No super virus either and Andrea (the one who died in the chair at the end of the last season) is still alive having never had anything to do with the Govenor in the comic.
Pacific wrote: Aside of being really violent, thought the way the 'new character wing' in the prison got hit hard in the last episode pretty amusing.
Has anyone here read the comic and can answer:
a) is the show following the plot of the comic closely?
b) If so, is this going to become 'The Waltons with zombies' like season 2, with lots of sitting around talking and less forward progress of plot?
At this point they're being different from the comic just as some sort of principle. Can't tell you where its going plot or theme wise.
Thanks guys, that's interesting. Hopefully the script writers still have some sort of vision though, and the studio execs some balls, and we will get a story arc (rather than it being cancelled because of dropping viewing figures or it just fizzling out and with no proper conclusion.)
KamikazeCanuck wrote: I believe this is the highest rated TV show on cable. It's broken all kinds of viewership records so it'll be around a while I think.
Oh yeah, the show is beating the NFL, which is pretty big!
Whoa, I didn't know that. That's like be bigger than Jesus and The Beatles combined!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyway, I actually just to watching the last episode now. I'm glad they didn't drag out the mystery. It seemed pretty obvious to me that the murder was Carol.
Also, that disastrous field trip was to get antibiotics which would be useless. Antibiotics are for Bacteria and a flu-Ebola super-virus would be a....virus.
I don't think introducing disease into the prison was a bad idea at all. I'm just not on board with the execution. Another superbug, which kills in a day after symptoms start? A mad dash for a cure (which wouldn't actually work anyway)? It's feeling a little more contrived and "TV show" than usual.
Nice to see that Tyreese is finally a fully armed and operational battle station, though.
Oh, and if I was Herschel, I would have stuck an knife in the doc's ear and told everyone that he had turned, as retribution for the doc's failure to COVER HIS MOUTH WHEN HE'S COUGHING. Honestly, I thought it hard to believe that a doctor would be so careless.
Wouldn't it be better for them to find a zombie that had the "super-flu" (ie the ones outside that are bleeding from the eyes) and take a swab of the blood to get a form of the dead "super-flu" and use it to inoculate the people?
I really enjoyed the last episode, especially the giant horde of walkers at the end which helped reinforce the that the zombies will be a bigger threat this season than the governor/other survivors.
gorgon wrote: It's better if the goal is to make sure the entire prison population dies, if that's what you mean.
Then again, we're talking about a show with doctors who think antibiotics will kill a virus, so sure, it's bound to work.
With the video above, you had ~2% chance of dying from inoculation(controlled infection) vs a ~30% of dying from said virus itself (smallpox). Seeing that through out history that is how some areas have survived plauges/epidemics i'd take the chance with the controlled infection rather than the "Wait it out" method.
Out of interest, is the show even bothering to try make an acknowledgement to natural laws, in regard to how the zombies are still moving about? OK, I know the whole concept of the way the zombies come into being makes zero sense (I'm guessing hell is full?) but for some reason I'm finding my suspension of disbelief stretched thin by the fact that the zombies seem to be able to still operate, now some time after their initial appearance.
Presumably they have obtained food from cattle/livestock and other animals, but they don't seem to have a fondness for processed foods, and you can't think that (bearing in mind the population of the US) the zombies in the city areas would have kept going for very long. So, solar powered? Wind? Drawing water through their feet? I kind of liked the end of 28 Days Later for that reason, although realise that that film had at least made a passing attempt to based on scientific rationale.
Suppose it's kind of like that Warhammer High Elf flying chariot; for some reason I can think 'that's fine' to the concept of a chariot, carrying elves, to be carried through the air by a giant bird. But, I find it ridiculous that the crew members would be so obviously whip-lashed from the back of the vehicle!
Why are they using a car when the chances are great that they're going to need to go offroad to avoid trouble or even junk on the roads?
And gee what happens? They get stuck on a bunch of moving road impediments. Congrats on Darryl not actually looking at where he's driving too, couldn't the passenger have played with the radio? Couldn't they have pulled over to ensure that if it was a local signal they wouldn't lose it?
Loved the herd, about time we saw some slow and purposeful come to call.
Do we think they'll now place barricades to break the herd up and funnel them away from the general location of the prison or do you think they'll ignore the herd and wait for it to show up?
@Pacific -- I'm with you. I don't get the growing zombie horde at this point in time. It seems like too many fresh zombies. Maybe the math works out, I dunno.
And Hershel almost gave them a good way out of it, too. He said it's not the flu that kills, but the symptoms. Which is right, in a way. So if they found a cistern truck full of NyQuil (I can dream), to keep their sinuses clear, their mucus liquid enough and the fever down, they could ride it out... and be really chill about it, too.
@Pacific -- I'm with you. I don't get the growing zombie horde at this point in time. It seems like too many fresh zombies. Maybe the math works out, I dunno.
If the new "super-flu" is a 100% fatality rate from "Normal" infection. A 1 in a million chance that it will work (Which through out the history of viruses, its worked with smallpox and other various viruses, hell what do you think a flu shot is? its a weakened or dead form of the virus injected into your body as a controlled infection).
A.) Everyone is already infected with the zombie virus, so regardless of how you die your a zombie
B.) 100% fatality rate from the "Super-Flu"
So your choice is:
an extreme longshot of a controlled infection working(1 in a million) vs. a 100% chance of death.
Also lets see what they are doing on the show.
-We don't know who isn't infected.
-people who have symptons are seperated (good move)
-People who aren't are all piled in the same god dam room (really????)
-Carl who has been outside the entire time, so lets put him in the room with people who may or may not be infected, instead of outside away from everyone
applies to maggie, maggie's sister, Baby.
-Lets drink unboiled water from a water source thats full of dead bodies + lets leave the water source near gak that rodents can climb up and infect...............................
-All of the Pigs are dead so lets burn this Pigpen down instead of using the wood for other things such as a fire when they needed it or to help strengthen the fence.
-They constantly go to all former military locations that are still filled with food and yet never find medical supplies or equipment? They need to search for the people who have so much food that they only take the medical supplies and equipment.
-We could make the Prison into a fort but na some things are more important than others. BBQ Pit, drinking unclean water, electric razors, comic books>>> Making the farm larger, reinforcing the fence, gathering medical supplies/emergency food supplies, Taking the time to boil the water.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: And Hershel almost gave them a good way out of it, too. He said it's not the flu that kills, but the symptoms. Which is right, in a way. So if they found a cistern truck full of NyQuil (I can dream), to keep their sinuses clear, their mucus liquid enough and the fever down, they could ride it out... and be really chill about it, too.
But I guess that would make for boring tv.
According to the group, Being lazy is more important than Doing something.
I realise the realism is restricted somewhat to how much they're prepared to pay for extras but surely even a token guy walking in front of the camera with a basket of fruit wouldn't break the budget? Something to show that the other people in the prison aren't just there until they can be stuffed into the mouths of walkers at some point.
Well, it didn't help at all. She has also ticked off a guy who just slaughtered a horde of zombie with nothing but a hammer. she might be in trouble.
I think she was right to kill them. They were going to turn so get in early before they became dangerous. Tyresse will calm down once he finds someone to pork.
Well, it didn't help at all. She has also ticked off a guy who just slaughtered a horde of zombie with nothing but a hammer. she might be in trouble.
I think she was right to kill them. They were going to turn so get in early before they became dangerous. Tyresse will calm down once he finds someone to pork.
Another solution is to blame on someone who's already dead.
My wife and I thought last night was pretty weak. The Carol rejection/ban was ok and probably required--but in general it seems like they are stretching for plot lines at this point.
At least they got those antibiotics for that nasty flu virus going around though..
Rick:
- Lost annoying wife
- Still has carl and daughter
- constantly complains about things
- Doesn't want carl to kill in a world gone to hell
- doesn't like to take charge anymore
- Only Cares about Carl and daughter's safety but does jack gak to keep them safe.
Carol:
- Lost abusive husband
- Lost daughter
- Teaches kids how to defend themselves and how to survive in the world gone to hell, because no one else thinks to teach them
- Head strong and makes tough choices to defend the group
- nothing gets to her and she wants to survive and help others to survive
Rick leaves her because she made a decision to kill two people to protect the group (you know the same thing rick did in season 2 except it was oh 5 people), instead of letting her and Tyreese deal with it. Also Rick doesn't even think about whats going to happen when DARYL finds out that he abandoned Carol. yeah ricks a great leader that doesn't look forward..............
Rick:
- Lost annoying wife
- Still has carl and daughter
- constantly complains about things
- Doesn't want carl to kill in a world gone to hell
- doesn't like to take charge anymore
- Only Cares about Carl and daughter's safety but does jack gak to keep them safe.
Carol:
- Lost abusive husband
- Lost daughter
- Teaches kids how to defend themselves and how to survive in the world gone to hell, because no one else thinks to teach them
- Head strong and makes tough choices to defend the group
- nothing gets to her and she wants to survive and help others to survive
Rick leaves her because she made a decision to kill two people to protect the group (you know the same thing rick did in season 2 except it was oh 5 people), instead of letting her and Tyreese deal with it. Also Rick doesn't even think about whats going to happen when DARYL finds out that he abandoned Carol. yeah ricks a great leader that doesn't look forward..............
I think Rick did the right thing:
Spoiler:
1. Carol killed two people who were in isolation, weren't exposing anybody else to the disease, and didn't know how the disease would affect adults (so far only a teenage boy had died). Not only that, but she does it an exposes herself to the disease while doing it! It's pure idiocy and completely unneeded.
2. Carol has become to cold. She basically feeds the people they met to the walkers by contradicting Rick. So she's responsible, in my opinion, for their death as well.
3. She straight up says she'll "handle" Tyreese. Great, she's going to kill another person who would be 100% justified in clubbing her down with a hammer at this point based on her actions. Where does her killing people stop?
I like Carol, but I feel like everything in this episode between her and Rick led Rick to his decision. And arguably it's one that saved her life. Banishing her saves lives within the group.
Rick has only ever killed people who were a direct physical threat at the time. He put a bullet in the dudes in the bar, reasonably, when their actions were at odds with his as a lawman. He killed Shane when Shane was set to kill him. He killed the prisoner in the prison who tried to "accidentally" kill him during the fight with the zombies. Rick has never killed unless it was a direct threat. And even then only a single member of their group has ever died at Ricks hands. The disease was already out. Killing them doesn't stop that and who knows how adults react to the contagion. It's a different thing.
And it's not that Rick doesn't want Carl killing. He doesn't want him killing indiscrimnately. I'm actually really happy with the father/son interaction this season. Carl seems to have regained respect for his father. He's still willing to do what needs to be done but now talks about it and is seeking approval for his actions prior to taking them. Carl grew up a bit in the last few months off screen.
Hulksmash wrote: 1. Carol killed two people who were in isolation, weren't exposing anybody else to the disease, and didn't know how the disease would affect adults (so far only a teenage boy had died). Not only that, but she does it an exposes herself to the disease while doing it! It's pure idiocy and completely unneeded.
While killing them instead of waiting for them to turn (which is within a day or so) is a debatable action, there were at least two who died from the infection. The kid and the man who locked himself in in his cell at night because he sleep walked. That proves right there that adults were capable of dying from it. Carol was no more exposed to the virus killing them than she was when escorting the infected into the cells.
What she did that was stupid was knocking over the water and then going out alone to futz with the hose.
2. Carol has become to cold. She basically feeds the people they met to the walkers by contradicting Rick. So she's responsible, in my opinion, for their death as well.
Two people who had survived as long as they had should not require their hands to be held. Those two screwed up and it's not like Rick exactly cared about what happened to them, he let them go off on their own with the guy having just had his shoulder popped back in - not exactly fighting fit.
Rick is not perfect, he left a lone person to get eaten after refusing to stop and pick him up, he also left that turned Irish couple still moving as a nice surprise for someone else to stumble across.
His son kills a man under questionable circumstances (though circumstances very similar to Rick's killing of the inmate) and he takes his son's gun away.
Carol kills two people who are going to die and turn, but because she doesn't wait another few hours suddenly she's a murderer and has to be kicked out? How's that even Rick's decision to make?
I think Rick was right, whether or not Carol's decision was the correct one for the survival of the group it wasn't hers to make. You simply can't live with a person after they make a decision like that without consulting the group, because you will always think well, what if your loved one (lets say carl) was suddenly the one endangering Carol's adopted daughter, or there had to be a choice, would she hesitate to kill someone else if it was necessary? If you love someone you simply can't think of them as an object no matter how bad the zombie apocalypse is.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: In the beginning of the episode did Rick watch Carol kill somebody else or is that some kinda weird flashback that shows Rick knew all along?
Spoiler:
It was Rick doing the "Sherlock Holmes" thing in deducing what happened after Carol admitted that she killed them.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: In the beginning of the episode did Rick watch Carol kill somebody else or is that some kinda weird flashback that shows Rick knew all along?
Spoiler:
It was Rick doing the "Sherlock Holmes" thing in deducing what happened after Carol admitted that she killed them.
Ah, I see.
Anyway, seems Team Rick or Team Carol seems to be the debate of our times now. Rick's inconsistencies really irritate me, he seems to change his values every other week. I also think he's too indecisive to be a good leader.
I like Carol's anti-Rick like decisiveness but straight up murdering two people how are already in quarantine is the wrong call.
The mid season hiccough episode. There was way too much exposition in the last episode and not enough action. I fear the next episode is also going to be a bit of a let down as it appears to be from the trailer I saw that they'll just be running around the zombie hospital without the medication.
A longshot bet here, Carol either finds the Guv and returns to tell the rest of the group before the end of the season or some sort of cure for the disease setting up season 5.
Yeah, the 4th of 16 episodes. And what do people want to watch, 60 minutes of sharp objects going into zombie heads? It's a drama.
So regarding current events,
Spoiler:
I'm on Team Rick regarding Carol's banishment. Carol had become a bit of a monster, acting by herself and outside of the council, the closest thing they had to a functioning government. In some ways the whole thing was much like ancient Greek ostracism, without the democratic process and potsherds. She was on the path to becoming a tyrant and needed to leave the community.
I maintain that long-term survival of the human race would be about more than simply "making hard choices." Hard choices would need to be made, especially in the short term, but civilization is how you survive after the gas, canned food and manufactured goods run out.
If it's a drama and not a zombie slaughter show, I'm on team Dale. Let's talk about ethics in hell for 60 minutes a week .
I like more 'Day of the Dead' and less 'Days of Our Lives' in my zombie viewing. It hasn't gotten as bad as season 2 on that front thankfully. Why didn't we get to see the tattoo girl get pounced on by zombies instead of 20 seconds less of boring tomato pickin' exposition? Money probably.
I think Carol should have at least tried to have killed Rick if only to set up another beefier plot line.
Should have had a trial for her. Got votes on what they should do with her. I suppose in their society it's meaningless to make a government, everyone just makes spot single-minded decisions all the time without asking.
Carol makes her call...
Now Rick makes his call about Carol...
Not asking anyone else? I know he doesn't want to say anything, but he'll have to say something now. It's not like the issue will just go away.
Rick' has become season 1 carol.. submissive, and overall useless
Carol's become what rick should be, while the question of If killing the 2 people who (as it currently stands) were going to die anyways is right or wrong. She took action when no one else did, what did rick do? Sit there and breath Heavily and complain about how carl's growning up.
the fact that Rick is presented as a man of his word and CONSTANTLY goes agianst what he says is getting annoying.
Rick: "I don't want to be the leader"
- so he makes a choice that the council should make, and doesn't even think of possible outcomes such as, Daryl leaving to go find her, Tyreese leaving to hunt her down. (Cause when Tyreese gets back and notices that Carol isn't there he's going to ask rick, and know that it was her. Rick has a horrible tell)
Goodjob Rick, you have reduced your current strength by 25% and have the possiblity of removing One Person who is your hunter and One person who hammered his way out of a herd and is overall wanted in a Zombie apoc...
Ninjacommando wrote: Rick' has become season 1 carol.. submissive, and overall useless
Carol's become what rick should be, while the question of If killing the 2 people who (as it currently stands) were going to die anyways is right or wrong. She took action when no one else did, what did rick do? Sit there and breath Heavily and complain about how carl's growning up.
the fact that Rick is presented as a man of his word and CONSTANTLY goes agianst what he says is getting annoying.
Rick: "I don't want to be the leader"
- so he makes a choice that the council should make, and doesn't even think of possible outcomes such as, Daryl leaving to go find her, Tyreese leaving to hunt her down. (Cause when Tyreese gets back and notices that Carol isn't there he's going to ask rick, and know that it was her. Rick has a horrible tell)
Goodjob Rick, you have reduced your current strength by 25% and have the possiblity of removing One Person who is your hunter and One person who hammered his way out of a herd and is overall wanted in a Zombie apoc...
No, it really doesn't. She's not the Governor...yet. She isn't interested in killing anyone who gets in her way. And the way she accepted banishment indicates that she knows she crossed the line, murdering two people who might have lived.
Note that the Spanish flu epidemic had a mortality rate of something like 2.5%. Maybe this fictional bug is a lot nastier, fine. But the mortality rate from even something as mean as Ebola can vary widely. Some Ebola outbreaks have been as low as 25%, and even at its deadliest it's been around 90%. If we assume that this superflu isn't any worse than Ebola (and granted we're talking about bad science writing), then some of the afflicted will almost certainly live.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ninjacommando wrote: Rick: "I don't want to be the leader"
- so he makes a choice that the council should make, and doesn't even think of possible outcomes such as, Daryl leaving to go find her, Tyreese leaving to hunt her down. (Cause when Tyreese gets back and notices that Carol isn't there he's going to ask rick, and know that it was her. Rick has a horrible tell)
But he didn't make the choice as a leader. He made the choice as a father who couldn't trust Carol around his family anymore. If Carl or Judith got sick, Carol was going to stick a knife in his/her ear -- disease outcome be damned.
Rick's no weakling and can be hard when he wants to, problem is he never really gave a damn about anyone else apart from his family. They were all expendable. Now that Lori is dead (most hated character?) he's been forced to rethink the importance of those around him. A community can help raise his children, he certainly can't raise his baby by himself.
I believe he started his farm as an attempt to put down roots and form a permanent settlement. He took the gun off Carl because he wanted him to reconnect with society and not become just a cold killer. Maybe that's why he wanted Carol to go, because he doesn't want her to undo his desire to bring civilization back to the group. Carl had told him earlier that she was teaching the children to use knives, the knives that he let Carol take with her.
Either way, allowing her to go off on her own which is practically a death sentence is throwing away someone with useful medical skills. I wonder how he'll deal with the town drunk should that guy come to his attention?
Ninjacommando wrote: Rick: "I don't want to be the leader"
- so he makes a choice that the council should make, and doesn't even think of possible outcomes such as, Daryl leaving to go find her, Tyreese leaving to hunt her down. (Cause when Tyreese gets back and notices that Carol isn't there he's going to ask rick, and know that it was her. Rick has a horrible tell)
But he didn't make the choice as a leader. He made the choice as a father who couldn't trust Carol around his family anymore. If Carl or Judith got sick, Carol was going to stick a knife in his/her ear -- disease outcome be damned.
you mean the same way she up and killed one of the girls she swore to protect? oh wait she didn't, she killed those two people as an attempt to stop the infection from spreading. Everyone pretty much infected so now she wouldn't bother killing them.
As for the only 25% mortality rate... 3 people are dead atm and no one has shown signs of recovery.. looks like a 100% mortality rate to me for now.
The difference between Rick's choice and Carol's choice, is that Carol chose to act alone and murder two people, whereas Rick chose to act alone and save one person (Carol, from Tyrese, who could be killed in a fight or pre-emptively by Carol anyway). Daryl is certainly free to go after her, but I doubt he will as she put him in an equally crappy position as Rick. Plus she is kind of creepy now.
Rick is not a pussy. He even sacrifices pigs. So what if he can talk to dead people?
No, it really doesn't. She's not the Governor...yet. She isn't interested in killing anyone who gets in her way. And the way she accepted banishment indicates that she knows she crossed the line, murdering two people who might have lived.
Note that the Spanish flu epidemic had a mortality rate of something like 2.5%. Maybe this fictional bug is a lot nastier, fine. But the mortality rate from even something as mean as Ebola can vary widely. Some Ebola outbreaks have been as low as 25%, and even at its deadliest it's been around 90%. If we assume that this superflu isn't any worse than Ebola (and granted we're talking about bad science writing), then some of the afflicted will almost certainly live.
Two people got sick and died from it. We know that the younger guy got sick pretty quick and was dead within a day (it's hard to keep track of time in the show). The other guy died after an unknown period of having this new virus. By the reactions of the people there like Herschel and the doctor? guy, it's blindingly fast and people die very quickly after getting it.
Carol was the one who had to deliver the brain kill to the man who had become the father to the two girls after he'd been bitten during the attack on D block. That would have been her motivation to prevent the spread as such as possible.
Next question would be how many people during a zombie apocalypse would leave a cell door open if they had the chance to go to sleep with steel bars to protect them?
As for the only 25% mortality rate... 3 people are dead atm and no one has shown signs of recovery.. looks like a 100% mortality rate to me for now.
just because it's killed 3 people so far doesn't in any way make it a 100% mortality rate. If anything several of the people that are infected have survived longer than patient 0 which is a good indicator that they'll survive the disease
Next question would be how many people during a zombie apocalypse would leave a cell door open if they had the chance to go to sleep with steel bars to protect them?
Because they could feel like they were being held prisoner, in general (Before the outbreak) they felt pretty safe inside the walls of the prison
As for the only 25% mortality rate... 3 people are dead atm and no one has shown signs of recovery.. looks like a 100% mortality rate to me for now.
just because it's killed 3 people so far doesn't in any way make it a 100% mortality rate. If anything several of the people that are infected have survived longer than patient 0 which is a good indicator that they'll survive the disease
How many people have died so far from the infection: 3
How many people are infected: ~20-30
How many people have succesfully recovered from the infection: 0
So as it stands The rate is calculated from the number of people who have died and the number of people who have survived
3 dead + 0 recovered = 3 total
3 dead / 3 total = 100%
so 100% mortality rate ATM, now this could change but as it stands, you get it you die.
now if the remaining 20-30 all recover then the mortality rate becomes something between the following
3/23 = 13.04%
3/33 = 9.09%
but at the moment, its 100%.
But as for being at a prison.. i'd personally want to sleep in one of the unexploded guard towers since i would never have to worry about a Zed climbing a ladder.
At the time they died they had already lived with the disease longer than the boy. Only two people had died and we don't know anything about their immune systems. Murdering people who had already been isolated is plain stupid. It doesn't matter how you cut it.
I could support her decision if the following had happened:
An event that happened only to the two murdered people and the kid and dude that were sick.
Those 4 people hadn't spet all day around people in the yard or around the food that everyone ate.
Everyone and their grandma hadn't been in the cell block with no ventilation with the infected people.
None of these things happened. The disease had zero chance of being put back in the bottle. And anybody who knows a single thing about disease is that generally by the time symptoms show you've already been contagious.
So why is it in anyway a good idea to kill two people who are locked up and isolate? Let alone the risk of personal contamination....
Just remember folks, if the Zombie games start and you start sneezing, better start running, because Frazzled is coming with a killj and a gallon of gas...
Next question would be how many people during a zombie apocalypse would leave a cell door open if they had the chance to go to sleep with steel bars to protect them?
Because they could feel like they were being held prisoner, in general (Before the outbreak) they felt pretty safe inside the walls of the prison
That tends to be how people die have died so far. They let their guard down thinking they're safe. I guess given that it was D block that the people from Woodbury are less aware of the dangers having had a secure town for so long.
Next question would be how many people during a zombie apocalypse would leave a cell door open if they had the chance to go to sleep with steel bars to protect them?
Because they could feel like they were being held prisoner, in general (Before the outbreak) they felt pretty safe inside the walls of the prison
That tends to be how people die have died so far. They let their guard down thinking they're safe. I guess given that it was D block that the people from Woodbury are less aware of the dangers having had a secure town for so long.
And why exactly did they move from the town again???
And why exactly did they move from the town again???
Walls were falling apart, walls are to large for their original group (prison pop + woodbury pop) to defend. The GOVAHNA knows it in and out so its not that great of a place to defend agianst him. Concrete walls>>>>>>>>>>> truck with tires stuffed under it.
The real question is, Why didn't they take everything from woodsbury to reinforce the prison Fence.
Next question would be how many people during a zombie apocalypse would leave a cell door open if they had the chance to go to sleep with steel bars to protect them?
Because they could feel like they were being held prisoner, in general (Before the outbreak) they felt pretty safe inside the walls of the prison
That tends to be how people die have died so far. They let their guard down thinking they're safe. I guess given that it was D block that the people from Woodbury are less aware of the dangers having had a secure town for so long.
And why exactly did they move from the town again???
Because the prison was safer and had better facilities. The town only had a doctor's surgery whereas the prison had depleted first aid supplies. The town had running water but the prison has access to water via a pump situated outside the gates. The town had access to garden food while the prison has good supplies of canned goods and whatever can be grown in the yard that is soaked in zombie blood. The town had houses with comfortable beds though the prison has hard bunks with old mattresses, hard floors and dark walls though you can shut the doors at night and pretend you're in 15 to life.
Actually I think there is a valid reason to have left. With most of the town militia dead thanks to the governor, there probably weren't enough people to keep the walkers away from the perimeter of the town. I think the prison actually has better static defences than Woodbury but they should be using that place to gather supplies from unless that's where they went when Carol was given the push.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ah, ninja ninja'd me on the lack of wall people.
And why exactly did they move from the town again???
Walls were falling apart, walls are to large for their original group (prison pop + woodbury pop) to defend. The GOVAHNA knows it in and out so its not that great of a place to defend agianst him. Concrete walls>>>>>>>>>>> truck with tires stuffed under it.
The real question is, Why didn't they take everything from woodsbury to reinforce the prison Fence.
The walls in the prison are dodgy, the walls in Woodbury seemed to be adequate enough even with the fairly pathetic guards they had. They had a system in place that kept the walkers away - drawing them to a dispoal area - but apparently the newcomers had better ideas - and thats why they are now stuck in the prison fighting off the hordes. The see through fences draw walkers as they can see their prey.
The prison is an extremely unhealthy place and depressing place to live in.The town had running water, real houses - and somewhere that promotes civilisation - rather than sticking people in unlit and unheated cages that make them fee like rats in raps - especially those who until recently slept safely in their own homes and beds.
The Goverenor could equally sneak into the Prison - its not like its been shown to be hard to do.
The prison made sense in the comic as they had nothing better - the TV show likely only makes sense from a budegtary / plot device POV - I guess they thought if they make it too comfortable as it would have been in Woodbury then the drama may be reduced...........
We don't know - most of the Govenors men and women were killed at the prison with him as were most of Ricks crew - some were driven into the prison by Zombies and may well have surived.
As far as we know is still going under a new ruler but also may have been overwhelmed.
I have to say that I found Rick's actions fairly pragmatic. By "banishing" Carol he avoided the inevitable showdown at the prison between Tyreese and Carol, which was likely to also involve Daryl and was almost certain to end in one or more deaths. It's also not as if he put a gun to her head and made her leave, she seemed pretty accepting of it - as if she knew it was the best thing for everybody.
Plus she was getting really creepy.*
*And also was going to interfere in the upcoming chocolate-vanilla swirl.
cadbren wrote: The town had running water but the prison has access to water via a pump situated outside the gates.
Seems like there have been shots/scenes involving water in every episode this season. Are they leading us somewhere with that, is it a symbolic/thematic thing, or is it just a red herring?
Lint wrote: *And also was going to interfere in the upcoming chocolate-vanilla swirl.
Nothing wrong with that at all. Besides, I think they make a cuter couple.
I want to know why the Prison's fences are bending to the weight of 30 zombies. Some one must of cut huge corners when they built the dam place.
@Mr. Morden
the Day after Rick and Friends staged the rescue in woodbury there were zombies inside of Woodbury, they came in through holes in the wall. The walls are falling apart and thats the main reason the Gov-nah wanted to get the prison. For maintaining the wall, back when woodbury had 20-30 ish people they kept on the walls at all times it was fine, After the rescue and Gov-nah shooting everyone Woodbury only had 3 able bodied people Tyreese, that girl he was with and that hispanic lady that surivived the shooting. Everyone else was old or a child.
if they stayed at woodbury it would of been, Rick, glenn, maggie, tyreese, daryl, carl, Tyreese's friend, hispanic lady as the only people watching all of the towns walls. instead of having those people watch the 200yrds of chainlink fence at the prison.
The main selling point of the prison was the double chain link fence which besides being a double wall allowed for good visibility and allowed you to walk between it and stab zombies in the face. It's the perfect setup but that hasn't really been explained in the show.
Also, the prison had supplies of guns, ammo, armour, canned food, medicine and an infirmary. It's basically a zombie apocalypse jackpot but they has also not been explained in the show because....Andrea is sleeping with the Govenor or something.
Ninjacommando wrote: I want to know why the Prison's fences are bending to the weight of 30 zombies. Some one must of cut huge corners when they built the dam place.
@Mr. Morden
the Day after Rick and Friends staged the rescue in woodbury there were zombies inside of Woodbury, they came in through holes in the wall. The walls are falling apart and thats the main reason the Gov-nah wanted to get the prison. For maintaining the wall, back when woodbury had 20-30 ish people they kept on the walls at all times it was fine, After the rescue and Gov-nah shooting everyone Woodbury only had 3 able bodied people Tyreese, that girl he was with and that hispanic lady that surivived the shooting. Everyone else was old or a child.
if they stayed at woodbury it would of been, Rick, glenn, maggie, tyreese, daryl, carl, Tyreese's friend, hispanic lady as the only people watching all of the towns walls. instead of having those people watch the 200yrds of chainlink fence at the prison.
Woodbury had no major issues as long as they followed the plan - lure the Zombies to the fire pit and and keep them away from town - it all went wrong when the war began and they lost more competant members of their defence team. If Rick and co had re-implemented the same methods - they would have been fine - remember at one point the wall is defended by a single girl with a bow and arrow and she is pretty ineffective to Andrea's disgust. Occasional mopping up patrols would have worked in conjunction with the lure and burn procedure. The wall defences are enhanced to deal with Ricks attack and its aftermath.... not IIRC in repsonse to Zombies which most of the people seldom worry about, in short everything was fine until the interactions between the two groups began.
The prison is a horrible place to try and live in - if it was safer maybe it would work - or if they used the admin block rather than the cells - but we also know there are breaches that they have to keep an eye on and the Zombies seem to keep massing at the dodgy looking fence with all the holes they keep making in it ............. If the remaining suvivors had built on the basis of the Gov-nah's flawed but effective plans they would be in a much better position - but that would not work as well for the plot......................same with the "lets shoot all my people" bit did not work for me at all - bit of a cop out to keep the plot going.
Lastly I am not suprised that people got sick if they are drinking marsh water in an area where they keep killing Zombies.............again there were no apparent water problems in the town.
Now that I think back Rick's group didn't really win the war with Woodbury. It was more of a Pyrrhic victory for Woodbury. That being said Woodbury is more of a hellhole in the comic. There were no family bbqs for example. It was more like zombie thunderdome.
Ninjacommando wrote: I want to know why the Prison's fences are bending to the weight of 30 zombies. Some one must of cut huge corners when they built the dam place.
@Mr. Morden
the Day after Rick and Friends staged the rescue in woodbury there were zombies inside of Woodbury, they came in through holes in the wall. The walls are falling apart and thats the main reason the Gov-nah wanted to get the prison. For maintaining the wall, back when woodbury had 20-30 ish people they kept on the walls at all times it was fine, After the rescue and Gov-nah shooting everyone Woodbury only had 3 able bodied people Tyreese, that girl he was with and that hispanic lady that surivived the shooting. Everyone else was old or a child.
if they stayed at woodbury it would of been, Rick, glenn, maggie, tyreese, daryl, carl, Tyreese's friend, hispanic lady as the only people watching all of the towns walls. instead of having those people watch the 200yrds of chainlink fence at the prison.
Woodbury had no major issues as long as they followed the plan - lure the Zombies to the fire pit and and keep them away from town - it all went wrong when the war began and they lost more competant members of their defence team. If Rick and co had re-implemented the same methods - they would have been fine - remember at one point the wall is defended by a single girl with a bow and arrow and she is pretty ineffective to Andrea's disgust. Occasional mopping up patrols would have worked in conjunction with the lure and burn procedure. The wall defences are enhanced to deal with Ricks attack and its aftermath.... not IIRC in repsonse to Zombies which most of the people seldom worry about, in short everything was fine until the interactions between the two groups began.
The prison is a horrible place to try and live in - if it was safer maybe it would work - or if they used the admin block rather than the cells - but we also know there are breaches that they have to keep an eye on and the Zombies seem to keep massing at the dodgy looking fence with all the holes they keep making in it ............. If the remaining suvivors had built on the basis of the Gov-nah's flawed but effective plans they would be in a much better position - but that would not work as well for the plot......................same with the "lets shoot all my people" bit did not work for me at all - bit of a cop out to keep the plot going.
Lastly I am not suprised that people got sick if they are drinking marsh water in an area where they keep killing Zombies.............again there were no apparent water problems in the town.
Yes, basically in the show everything was fine in the Woodbury until Rick showed up but it was still The Governor's marauding ways that led to it's downfall. All his problems were a consequence of his "foreign policy" if you will.
Agreed - which is why a less insane leadership would be even better and maintain a decent living area rather than a horrible prison.
Of course in the same season Rick pretty much went Insane in the show (again the comic has it much more gradual and more intense) and may do so again.
The downfall of Woodbury was not even really the Governors policies but that fact he lost to a group that was far more effective - if he had actually slaughtered the Prison survivors or Michilone had died earlier- he and the town would have likely carried on as before. He may have grown increasingly insane or just been a bit odd (and very dangerous at times) to his group.
Woodbury had no major issues as long as they followed the plan - lure the Zombies to the fire pit and and keep them away from town - it all went wrong when the war began and they lost more competant members of their defence team. If Rick and co had re-implemented the same methods - they would have been fine - remember at one point the wall is defended by a single girl with a bow and arrow and she is pretty ineffective to Andrea's disgust. Occasional mopping up patrols would have worked in conjunction with the lure and burn procedure. The wall defences are enhanced to deal with Ricks attack and its aftermath.... not IIRC in repsonse to Zombies which most of the people seldom worry about, in short everything was fine until the interactions between the two groups began.
The prison is a horrible place to try and live in - if it was safer maybe it would work - or if they used the admin block rather than the cells - but we also know there are breaches that they have to keep an eye on and the Zombies seem to keep massing at the dodgy looking fence with all the holes they keep making in it ............. If the remaining suvivors had built on the basis of the Gov-nah's flawed but effective plans they would be in a much better position - but that would not work as well for the plot......................same with the "lets shoot all my people" bit did not work for me at all - bit of a cop out to keep the plot going.
Lastly I am not suprised that people got sick if they are drinking marsh water in an area where they keep killing Zombies.............again there were no apparent water problems in the town.
Woodbury's wall went around the entire town, they only had one girl with a bow defending the front gate, the zombies that came through the wall came through another section of it. The pit lure only worked because they had people outside of the wall that could draw them to it, they imposed curfew at night so that people weren;t outside making noise allowing for a minimal force to be kept on all of the walls around the city. During the day they had people outside of the walls but could actually see which way zeds were coming from so it really didn't matter if the people made noise or not. The only Breach in the prison is the 10 portion of a brick wall that knocked over, seeing that zombies are no longer inside of the facility (from outside of the prison not super flu) they probably fixed that a while ago.
the Zombies seem to keep massing at the dodgy looking fence with all the holes they keep making in it
Thats because someone is feeding them, in the scene where the zombies are bending the fence maggie/rick notice that there are butchered rats in a pile on their side of the gate
Next question would be how many people during a zombie apocalypse would leave a cell door open if they had the chance to go to sleep with steel bars to protect them?
Because they could feel like they were being held prisoner, in general (Before the outbreak) they felt pretty safe inside the walls of the prison
That tends to be how people die have died so far. They let their guard down thinking they're safe. I guess given that it was D block that the people from Woodbury are less aware of the dangers having had a secure town for so long.
And why exactly did they move from the town again???
Because the Governor ran it cohesively and the Rictatorship could not?
Yeah, not sure how Carol was vindicated.....If anything the fact that some people lasted a long time feeling the effects should show she probably shouldn't have killed the first two so fast.....
As for the govenor I could see it. Sneak in, feed walkers at the gate, sneak out. Find walkers and lead them toward the prison. If he hasn't killed hiw two buddies yet it's totally doable.
Oh, and Rick and Carl rocked it hard this episode. But no one rocked it as hard as Herschel. Overall, really enjoyed this episode.
I think Carl is shaping up to be one of my favourite characters now, along with Rick and Daryl.
Carl's definitely becoming a hardened survivor, just like his comic counterpart, which is a interesting contrast to Rick.
When Rick was driving back to the prison sans Carol; and when Rick and Carl go out to fight off the Walker herd that breached the fence, you can see how unnerved and unstable Rick is. Hes doubting himself and has become fearful of his own brutality (the Governor-like Ricktatorship period that he went through).
Carl's become a source of strength for Rick. Carl sees the stress that Ricks going through, and is stepping up to give him the support he needs.
That scene when the two of them fight off the Walker herd is one of my favourite in the series so far.
Rick is one of my favourite characters because of the sacrifices hes had to make to be an effective leader and to keep his people safe, to the point that its affecting his sanity.
Carls a favourite because of how fast he's being forced to grow up, and how hes acting as a source of strength for his father.
And Daryls a favourite because of how much hes grown as a character, from a scornful outsider with a bad attitude to a full member of the group willing to risk his lives for his friends.
Okay vindicated is the wrong word, but her actions appear more justified now. Those two would not have survived. There was limited help available for the infected and those infected early on went first so they would have died.
The only person we know who was actually saved by Hershey was Glen, but it was Daryl and co showing up with the meds that stopped more deaths. Unless the meds do nothing and they all die of course.
What happens if Daryl goes after her and finds her chewed remains walking around?
Also, do you think the season will end with the herd arriving at the prison?
cadbren wrote: Okay vindicated is the wrong word, but her actions appear more justified now. Those two would not have survived. There was limited help available for the infected and those infected early on went first so they would have died.
No... just no. Unless you can peer into the future, you don't get to decide who lives or dies.
What happens if Daryl goes after her and finds her chewed remains walking around?
That what makes this a compelling series...eh?
Also, do you think the season will end with the herd arriving at the prison?
I have a theory about Lizzie (the girl with the unhealthy fondness for Walkers) and her younger sister Mika, and the similarity of character arcs in the show and comics.
In the comics, there were two twins, Ben and Billy, whose father Allen died at the prison.
Spoiler:
When the group were on the run after being driven out of the Prison, Ben, clearly traumatised and desensitised to violence, Ben kills his brother, convinced that death is meaningless as people always come back.
The wiki has this to say on Ben.
Ben has a hard time coming to terms with the new zombie-infested world. Although affected by the death of his mother Donna, Ben appeared, on the surface, to be wholly disinterested. Once the survivors settled down in The Prison, Ben and Billy lost their father, Allen, to a lurker attack during the early exploration of the prison facilities. They are subsequently adopted by Dale and Andrea. Seemingly unsurprised and unaffected by the death of their father, the twins thereafter refer to Dale and Andrea as their parents, rarely referencing their biological parents again.
Over time Ben begins to display the early warning signs of a psychopath. He is often seen in the background playing with the other children, but when examined closely it becomes apparent that he is teasing or rough-housing with them. At one point, Billy discovers Ben poking the carcass of a cat. It is implied by Dale's dialogue that he had likely tortured and killed it. He forces Billy to remain silent about the incident.
On the road to Washington D.C., Ben brutally slaughters Billy, convinced that no matter what happens, people will always come back after they die. The group debates killing Ben to protect themselves, but takes no immediate action. In the night, Carl sneaks into the van where Ben is locked up, and executes him. He is buried alongside his brother.
.
This is probably very obvious to anyone whos read the comics, but Lizzie clearly resembles Ben.
Spoiler:
1. She lost her father to a walker outbreak in the Prison.
2. She's "adopted" by Carol, who, not wishing to be a parent again after losing Sophia, thinks of herself more as Lizzie's guardian than her mother. Regardless, Lizzie begins to see Carol as her "mom" and accidentally calls her that in a slip of the tongue.
3. Shes become indifferent to death, and sees Walkers not as a threat but as a curiosity and a normal state of existence. She even starts naming Walkers, equating Walkers who kill people with people who kill other people. Theres also the moment in Ep 5 Internment, when she rubs her foot in Glenn's blood, which seemed quite apathetic and callous.
4. She carrys that knife that Carol gave her. And Carol, her mentor / guardian has also been shown to be somewhat disturbed and desensitised.
I think that at some point this Season, Lizzie is going to kill her younger sister, and will in turn be killed by Carl (as in the comics). In the comics, his motivation is to protect Sophia (who does not die), but on the show he obviously has Judith and Beth to protect (if they survive to this point).
Theres also a lot of points of similarity in other character arcs. The showrunners might have cut certain characters from the comics, and drastically changed others, but they're clearly taking lots of character arcs and storylines and applying them to other characters.
Spoiler:
1. In the comics, Allen's leg is bitten, and amputated by Rick though he dies from blood loss. In the show, Hershel is bitten and amputated by Rick, and just barely survives.
2. Comic: The Governor rapes and tortures Michonne; and amputates Ricks hand. Show: He threatens to rape Maggie, and has Glenn tortured. And of course, Merle's hand is amputated very early in the show.
I think they're going to roll some elements of Negan's character arc into the Governor.
Spoiler:
The Governor's henchman, Martinez has that baseball bat. Negan uses a spiked bat that he calls Lucy. I think the Governor might capture a number of people, do Negan's eeny meeny miny mo thing and execute someone by beating them to death. Maybe Glenn, or maybe Maggie, if they decide to mix things up and keep Beth as a mother figure for Judith. The Governor might do this personally like Negan, or he might have Martinez do given the show Governor's fondness of delegating (Merle and Glenn).
I also think the Governor is going to attack the Prison a second time.
Spoiler:
If I was him, I'd try to lead that massive herd to the prison, and knock down the fence to let them in. After a firefight, the Governor will probably be killed or wounded by one of his own men, probably Martinez, disgusted by the Governor's actions (maybe Beth and Judith are killed in the attack), then devoured by the herd.
I heard that Abraham Ford, Eugene and Rosita have been cast for this Season, so the Prison will definitely fall.
Edit:...
New theory on the Prison redux.
Spoiler:
Actually, I think Hershel will be executed by the Governor, like in the books, but in a manner mirroring Glenn's death at the hands of Negan.
The Governor and his two cronies Martinez and Shumpert will lead the herd to the Prison and smash down the fence. A firefight will ensue, in which some people are killed, possibly Beth and Judith (mirroring Lori and Judith in the Comics). Hershel will be captured by the Governor, as in the comics, and Hershel, distraught at Beths death (like Billy's in the Comics) wants to die. "Dear God, just kill me" . The Governor takes the bat from Martinez and beats Hershel to death, (mirroring Glenn's death in the comics). Martinez, sickened by Beth and Judiths' deaths, and Hershels brutal execution at the hands of the Governor, shoots him and leaves his corpse to be devoured by Walkers. Martinez and Shumpert flee into the Prison, never to be seen again.
Nice theory with the siblings and how they could tie Negan and the Governor together. I was thinking already that tv Woodbury had elements of that Government site in Washington, that got overrun too at one point after a gun battle with a local gang.
Has Daryl replaced Andrea from the comic version as the go to fighter type?
While it's possible Hershel could suffer comic Glen's fate, I think it also possible that he could end up like comic Dale.
The Governor again? Come on thats so boring!!! Move on people. How is he surviving by himself? Shouldn't he be more focused on maintaining respiration now?
Can we get back to a season of dealing with zombie hordes already?
Some fans of the comic -- which is much farther down the timeline -- have been complaining about a lack of zombie fighting at that stage of the story also. That seems like it's about to change, but ultimately I think that human interaction and adversaries are just a lot more interesting to the writers than wall-to-wall killing of nameless zombies.
Spoiler:
I think Shadow Captain Edithae is probably on the mark about some things. While the producers have publicly said they're straying more from the comic, it also appears to me that the show still moves in the comic's general direction, even if some of the characters and particulars are different.
The Governor storyline has obviously been dragged out. Even if you haven't read the comic, it probably still feels that way. They probably did that because they wanted to spend more time exploring the dynamics of the prison, and because it made financial sense to use the set they've created for as long as possible.
Still, I expect the Governor will get wrapped up in a different but similar manner to the comic, and that the story will then again progress in the same general direction as the comic, again even if many details are different.
Things are heating up in the comic again for sure. Interactions are one thing, but the idea of being surrounded by hordes of impacable zombies is I think the real reason people keep going back for more, otherwise it's Days of Our Lives: Apocalypse Edition.
I don't recall if anything has been said about herds yet, but in the comic it's stated that zombies will be attracted to other zombies and they'll form groups (as we've seen in the show lots of times).
How was it then that Michonne's two walkers were able to act as camouflage for her if zombies attract others. She should have attracted lots of them simply by moving forwards. I realise she could have attacked them with her sword, at least when she was awake, but what about at night when she slept? Two zombies is no screen from any others, she would have been found.
cadbren wrote: Things are heating up in the comic again for sure. Interactions are one thing, but the idea of being surrounded by hordes of impacable zombies is I think the real reason people keep going back for more, otherwise it's Days of Our Lives: Apocalypse Edition.
I don't recall if anything has been said about herds yet, but in the comic it's stated that zombies will be attracted to other zombies and they'll form groups (as we've seen in the show lots of times).
How was it then that Michonne's two walkers were able to act as camouflage for her if zombies attract others. She should have attracted lots of them simply by moving forwards. I realise she could have attacked them with her sword, at least when she was awake, but what about at night when she slept? Two zombies is no screen from any others, she would have been found.
They mask her scent. Other zombies could not detect she was one of the living. Zombies are attracted to sound so the naturally pool together. Don't make noise and the zombies wont be attracted to you.
Yes, but if zombies attract others then she'd find herself inside a large group. Early in the series (tv or comic or both?) Rick and some others cover themselves in zombie muck to hide their sent until it rained and exposed them. I don't believe two zombies would be enough to protect you from discovery if you're surrounded.
Even if that worked, you're asleep and a zombie trips over you. Suddenly it's on top of you and it realises you're food. There's a big hole in that part of the story.
How was it then that Michonne's two walkers were able to act as camouflage for her if zombies attract others. She should have attracted lots of them simply by moving forwards. I realise she could have attacked them with her sword, at least when she was awake, but what about at night when she slept? Two zombies is no screen from any others, she would have been found.
The two zombies she had became docile, they stood there and made no noise so they never drew other zombies to the area. When zombies are attacking something they are banging agianst something and that draws other zombies to that point and bang on area making more noise, this draws more and more zombies to the area. Now they are also attracted smell and while this only ever comes up once in the TV show, it has remained part of it. whether or not zombies can see remains to be seen , I think that their hearing is basically peak human as they no longer see/smell that great.
also, Rick has moved up as a character but is still down in a hole.
The Governor again? Come on thats so boring!!! Move on people. How is he surviving by himself? Shouldn't he be more focused on maintaining respiration now?
1) Hes a sadistic psychopathic that can handle himself well in violent situations
2) Hes not alone. He has at least two violent and (apparently) loyal henchmen, and knowing his charisma and personality, I can easily see him gathering together a gang of like minded psychopaths and scavengers (much like Negan in the comics) and using them to terrorise the Prison population.
3) He survives by wiping out other groups of survivors and scavenging their supplies.
And I disagree that hes boring. If anything, hes one of the most interesting characters of the entire series. He serves as a warning and a foreshadowing for several other characters. He represents loss and despair - hes a man who's lost everything, his family, friends, respect, humanity, compassion and even his sanity. He is what other characters like Rick and Carl could become, if they lose everything and give in to despair. Through Season 4 Rick has been rattled and disturbed by his own actions, and worries that he could end up like the Governor (hence his desire to just be a farmer, and his reluctance to take part in any violence). Carl is also becoming a hardened, cynical survivor and Rick fears that Carl might become as brutal as the Governor (similarly, in the comics comparisons are drawn between Carl and Negan).
gorgon wrote: Some fans of the comic -- which is much farther down the timeline -- have been complaining about a lack of zombie fighting at that stage of the story also. That seems like it's about to change, but ultimately I think that human interaction and adversaries are just a lot more interesting to the writers than wall-to-wall killing of nameless zombies.
I agree. The zombie apocalypse is just a setting and a context. Zombies are mindless, and so they have zero motivations, desires and agendas, so the possiblity for interesting characterisation is extremely limited. All they want to do is eat. If its all about the zombies, and they're the only threat then that becomes quite boring. Killing endless hordes of zombies is fine for a video game like Dead Rising, but terrible for a character driven show like TWD.
cadbren wrote: There's a big hole in that part of the story.
This entire thread is about rationalising a zombie apocalyse and the zombies are are a pretty important part of that.
How they actually function is important to understanding the actions and thence motives of the survivors. Their survival hinges on having a full understanding of how zombies behave and what their capabilities are.
Is the governor using zombies as shields like Michonne to get close to the prison and attract zombies to weak points in the fence? If he is, wouldn't he just unhook the parts of the fence that Rick and co use and let them in?
Still lots of blanks around him and his plans for the prison.
If zombies are that good at hiding the smell of the living then why not stake a bunch of them around the prison to ward off any from the fence?
I don't think the Governor has been watching the Prison for a long time. I think he's been elsewhere for the previous 5 episodes, exorcising (or summoning) his demons, gathering supplies and weapons, recruiting new followers, killing people who refuse to join him or who he doesn't have a use for.
The promo shows him standing by a burning building. I think he will possibly torch the abandoned Woodbury in a fit of rage.
Michonne stated that she looked everywhere for him, but the trail went cold according to Daryl. If hes been lurking close to the prison this whole time, I think someone would have spotted him.
I think this next Ep will show flashbacks, whats happened to him since season 3, where hes been and what hes doing. When hes seen at the end of Ep 5, I think that was the first time hes returned to the Prison. If he'd been watching all along, he'd have known that after the disease outbreak the prison was extremely vulnerable with just a couple of fighters left standing. Rick, Maggie and Carl. So he would have probably attacked. I don't think he knew just how vulnerable they were.
Ep 5 will end with him capturing someone, possibly Hershel (whos going out with Michonne to burn corpses). Michonne will probably escape, as she did in the comics. Maybe Hershel will be beheaded with her katana.
The rats luring walkers to the fence is probably an inside person, most likely Lizzy as she has an affectionate obsession with walkers. She was probably feeding them out of "kindness" than trying to get everyone killed.
And if the Governor meets up with Carol, she might feel betrayed enough over being exiled by Rick to side with the Governor, helping him attack the prisons weak points. Her motivation might be to take back Micah and Lizzy who she sort of "adopted". She considers herself their guardian, and might feel she can protect them better than Rick.
Alternatively, she might follow comic Andrea's role, and will return to the prison in the midst of a crisis (Governor attack?) to save the survivors. At which point they may take her back. I hope so, because I was hoping for a female character following Andrea's comic arc and thought it was going to be Carol.
A good episode, we get a look at The Governor 2: Electric Boogaloo.
They did a great job on his reboot story,
Spoiler:
having him wander around grow a beard and bump into a family which is very similar to his own was a good direction, he sees the little girl and he starts to think about what he has done, he goes out of his way to keep a man alive for a few more days. this one episode made him a better character than rick, he promises to keep that little girl safe after killing 4 zombies with his bare hands. such a BA! but now with his old bodyguard will he revert to his evil ways or has he started to realise that there is more to this dark world
This show is so much better when it focuses on one character or a small group instead of jump-cutting all over the place.
A lot of setup this week, looking forward to the payoff next week, then after that there's the midseason finale where I guess there will be some kind of prison/ governor stuff
I'm liking the governor's character a lot more this season, just seems to be better written.
Holy crap, I did not expect the direction this episode has taken. I didn't think it possible but this episode actually made the Governor into a sympathetic character. I'd hate for him to be killed off now.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Holy crap, I did not expect the direction this episode has taken. I didn't think it possible but this episode actually made the Governor into a sympathetic character. I'd hate for him to be killed off now.
That would be putting it rather strongly, I think. He's still the psychopath who tortured and killed people when he wasn't sitting around looking at heads in jars.
You know, this was actually one of my most liked episodes in a long time of this show. Not saying I dislike the rest of the episodes, but I just enjoy somewhat more of a simplicity of a man in the zombie world and his character. Reminds me of the first episode with Rick waking in a hospital. Had some beautiful scenes too like the burning of Woodbury.
In fact, now that I think about it this whole episode feels like a correlation to Rick's first episode.
Very good episode this one, transforms the governor back into a human not a monster... all because of a little girl that brings him some semblance of what he lost during the incident.
The real question becomes how do you come back from where he's been? He'd never be allowed in the prison, and it's the only safe place he could take those women...
I'm loving this spin off, and I'm wondering what becomes of it now that he's found by some that were witness to his treachery.
Is this current "spin-off" of the Gov in any way similar to the comics? Or are they radically different now?
Spoiler:
I see a familiar Star Wars theme here...
The Governor's absolute power over Woodbury drove him crazy... that’s always happens when someone acquires absolute power. He’s basically following a Darth Vader story arc... starts off good, is seduced into running an evil empire by his rage and grief over the death of his family, then redeems himself by rescuing this girl and her family.
Which is why I think this episode is resonating with everyone...
Well, he's radically different in that he's alive at this point versus being shot in the head already.
From the beginning, I think they're tried to make the TV Gov a more sympathetic character. But again, I really don't see how saving a few people balances his books.
I think we've all got sick of watching the regulars do pretty much nothing except get water and tend the sick. This has put some life back into the show but the zeds are still lacking, bring on the herd already!
Going back a couple episodes....coming late to the apocalypse. ..
Instead of allowing the walkers to push their way through the fence...why not take a few ounces of gas, sprinkle/spray it over them...and have a nice bonfire?
Its not like it would have damaged the metal chain link fence worse than the walkers did busting through it.
TheMeanDM wrote: Going back a couple episodes....coming late to the apocalypse. ..
Instead of allowing the walkers to push their way through the fence...why not take a few ounces of gas, sprinkle/spray it over them...and have a nice bonfire?
Its not like it would have damaged the metal chain link fence worse than the walkers did busting through it.
The heat might weaken the fence, bending and warping the chain links, leaving it more vulnerable to future attacks. It would be a waste of valuable fuel, and may not even work very well. The walkers in the Woodbury pit that Milton were still 'alive', and that was after being literally drenched with fuel and burned in a tight confined area. The walkers at the prison fence aren't in a confined area, and a little bit of gas won't do much. Their clothes and skin might be seared away, but I think most of them would still be mobile enough to pose a threat to the fence.
whembly wrote: THen you'd have walking bonfires... which is baaaaaaaad.
They don't have Carol anymore, see knew how the fight zombies with fire
@ Shadow Captain Edithae you are correct about the fire weakening the fence, The problem was that zombies could break down part of the fence in the first place. Who ever buit this prison cut HUGE corners.
notice how the Chain link is continuous and its rolled on the outside of the poles, why in this show are each of the chain links a seperate segment between the poles
Those are rolls of razor wire at the top. All chainlink fences have sections but they're wired together. The fence in the show would have been done like that so the extras playing the zombies could pour through without having to trample over the razorwire at the top. Those poles still shouldn't have bent and what kind of wood did they use for the stakes for them to break too?
cadbren wrote: Those poles still shouldn't have bent and what kind of wood did they use for the stakes for them to break too?
Trees from the woods. Rick and Maggie were chopping up trees for stakes when the outbreak started and Maggie had to leave to save Hershel. If the weather is dry and hot (I don't recall it raining at the prison in recent episodes), then its possible the wood was dry and brittle.
cadbren wrote: Those poles still shouldn't have bent and what kind of wood did they use for the stakes for them to break too?
Trees from the woods. Rick and Maggie were chopping up trees for stakes when the outbreak started and Maggie had to leave to save Hershel. If the weather is dry and hot (I don't recall it raining at the prison in recent episodes), then its possible the wood was dry and brittle.
But drying strengthens the wood , thats what they do before they cut it and use it for contruction. I think the wood they used was made from plotainium/plotonium, they are as strong as the Plot needs them to be.
I thought about halfway through the episode that the Governor at the end of the last episode was a big fakeout.
I.e. Instead of being there for revenge, that he brings his new family to the one place he knows is safe. The prison pop has to deal with a reformed governor and his new family, etc.
Spoiler:
And then I watched the stupid next on Walking Dead and that theory was blown out of the water as he goes back to his old ways. I guess it could still happen since we are still in the past on the Gov's storyline. I.e. this new group blows up and he only just escapes with his new daughter and wife.
pretre wrote: I thought about halfway through the episode that the Governor at the end of the last episode was a big fakeout.
I.e. Instead of being there for revenge, that he brings his new family to the one place he knows is safe. The prison pop has to deal with a reformed governor and his new family, etc.
And then I watched the stupid next on Walking Dead and that theory was blown out of the water as he goes back to his old ways. I guess it could still happen since we are still in the past on the Gov's storyline. I.e. this new group blows up and he only just escapes with his new daughter and wife.
Some countries don't get the "next on Walking Dead" bit, so if you could refrain from posting spoilers from it in the open it would be much appreciated...
I was very glad to see that they didn't try to reform the Governor. It would have been very phony writing, IMO.
And it's also interesting to note that the show's path seems to be intersecting the comic's once again. There'll be a tank outside the prison walls, and a woman named Lilly that might make a decision. Although I'm thinking that Tara may be playing the Lilly role in this case.
I kind of agree reforming the Guv would've been a bit fake, but at least we get a sense of his motivation outside of "surivin'". I'm assuming inside the prison the illness has passed, but we'll have to wait and see about that. I'm kind of bummed that there is going to some sort of Battle for the Jail II, as I found the story arc of the Guv way more interesting than what was happening with Rick and company. I was kind of hoping that it would be some sort of spin-off I guess, but now it seems that it is all being set up for either the Guv's death or at the very least Michone's and Darryl's. I just can't see them killing of Darryl as he is hands down the most popular character on show, even more popular than Lori was (I kid. I kid.) Unfortunately, I'm going to assume that the proverbial bubblegum won't hit the fan next week and we'll have to wait to see the actual battle way later. I'll go out on a limb and say that after the mid-season crescendo, they'll go and focus on Carol. I still think she is going to comeback big.
:/, so the one episode that everyone liked and made the governor somewhat good just got thrown out of the window? Jesus this show has had enough of evil douches, and whats with the Good = stupid routine? Why couldn't we have a redeemed Guv walking around? its been 6 months, he must realize that he was a turd when he sat all keanu in that apartment.
the whole "we can't bring em back we don't have enough food as it is".. they have been in that spot for 6 months and no one thought of planting crops? I thought ricks group was bad at doing stuff but this just insane
Why couldn't they keep the redeemed Guv?
Every dam show on TV now has the "Once an evil douche, always an evil douche"
Yeah...after episode 7...I think I preferred the Governor when he was a remorseful hermit. Looks like the storyline is being brought back to the baseline of the Comic books.
Spoiler:
I guess we can expect Hershel and Judith to die, and possibly Beth too seeing as she's become a surrogate mother for Judith.
I think the Gov. is just too much of a psychopath to be "reformed." His crazy obsession with watching walkers that are suspended in water is what drives him. He was all set to leave and take his new family away until he saw the walker-mud pit and for whatever reason that triggered his inner homicidal madman, and all of a sudden he got that murderous itch back. I liked the episode. I thought it was kind of eff'ed up when the younger army guy died and his brother took about 2 minutes to go ahead and be cool with it, but maybe that will play out more later.
On reflection I think the TV Governor is a vast improvement on the Comic Book Governor.
The comic/novel version was a weak coward (Brian Blake) who slowly morphed into a sadistic psychopath that assumed the name of his deceased brother (Philip Blake) as a new identity.
The TV version explains his motivations better. His daughter was killed (probably by people not walkers, as in the Rise of the Governor novels). And then her reanimated corpse was killed again by Michonne. He believes that if he'd been sadistic and violent from the beginning then his daughter would still be alive.
I disagree that its his obsession with the Walkers that drives him (the fish tank heads, submerged Pete, walkers trapped in the mud). Rather, its his obsession with protecting the people he loves. He failed to protect his daughter because he wasn't violent enough. He failed to protect her as a Walker.
When he was alone on the road after massacring the Woodury Army, he'd lost everyone he loved. With nobody to protect, he had no motivation and little desire to live.
Then he met the Chamblers, and they became his de facto family. He now has people he loves and needs to protect once again, so his violent personality is re-emerging.
Spoiler:
His obsession with protecting his loved ones has made him a control freak. He mentions that his older brother was the strong one.
In the comics and books, the real Philip Blake was the older and stronger more violent brother, and was the father of Penny. Brian was the younger brother, and started off as a weak coward. When Penny died, Philip started to go crazy, and Brian killed him. Brian then morphed into a more violent character and became 'The Governor'.
I think in the TV show they changed things a little. They made 'Philip' (if thats his real name) the younger, timid brother and the father of Penny (whereas he was the Uncle in the comics). Something happened that got Penny and the older brother killed prior to Woodbury (probably another violent group of people as in the novels).
The Governor killing Pete and Martinez was due to his control freakery. He feels the need to be in control so he can protect his loved ones, rather than relying on others. .
In Season 3 the Governor explained the fish tanks full of Walker heads as being a reminder of how dangerous the world is. Its a way of keeping himself 'in the zone', maintaining his violent 'Governor' personality that he thinks is necessary to protect the people he loves.
Similarly, I think the sight of the Walker herd trapped in the mud simply reminded him that it wasn't safe to go out on the road, and that he needed to be violent and sadistic to survive.
Woodbury is gone, he rammed the gates and burned it to the ground, so the only truly 'safe' place left in the area is the Prison. His main motivation is to take control of the Prison as a stronghold to protect his family. So he resolves to take over leadership of the camp, creating a second 'Woodbury' army.
His hatred of and desire for revenge against Michonne and Rick is simply an aspect of his 'Governor' personality. He sees them as threats to the people he loves.
So I don't think hes truly a psychopath. I think hes just gone through horrible experiences of losing the people he loves, and he thinks that only the strong survive in this new world, so he has to be sadistic and violent. Hes doing it to protect people, not because hes a simple psycopath who just does it for the love of violence. Hes very much the person that Rick could have been if he'd responded to the loss he went through by becoming more violent himself. ("You don't get to come back from things" - Clara, 4x01).
So I don't think the Governor is a simple, 100% evil villain.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My predictions for future episodes...
Spoiler:
Lots of people will die in the 2nd Prison assault. Hershel almost definitely. Judith too, and Beth (as the substitute mother for Lori, and as a subsitute for Hershels son Billy who died in the comics' Prison).
Most of the unnamed/minor extras will die (the few that have survived the flu outbreak anyway).
Maggie and Glenn will probably survive as in the comics (Glenn has probably the most significant and brutal death in the entire series, so they may wish to keep it for Season 5).
Lilly or maybe Tara will be the ones who kill Judith and Beth, and out of remorse and anger, kill the Governor. The massive herd seen earlier in Season 4 will be drawn to the Prison by the commotion, and any survivors of the Governors' new army will be forced to take refuge in the Prison.
Rick and Carl will probably spend some time alone on the run, trying to survive, until they can reunite with the rest of the group. Rick was shot at the prison in the comics, and Carl had to protect him for a while until Rick healed, so that would make for a great Rick & Carl -centric Episode 9, directly following the Prison assault, with the fate of the others unknown until episode 10.
The two sisters, Mica and Lizzie (the crazy one obsessed with Walkers) will probably survive. I they're the TV versions of Billy and Ben. Due to her disturbed psyche and obsession with Walkers, Lizzie might kill her sister like Ben did with Billy. Carl will then kill her, seeing her as a threat to the rest of the group (as in the comics).
By the end of the Season, the survivors of Ricks group will meet up with Abraham Ford, Eugene and Rosita, who are making their way to the 'Alexandria safe zone' in 'Washington' (the actual location may change, but it will probably be a long distance. I think we can expect two or three episodes of them on the road).
In one of the earlier episodes, Daryl, Michonne, Tyreese and Bob (driving to the Vetinerary College for medical supplies) heard a guy on the radio talking about a safe haven. This was clearly a foreshadowing for their next home after they leave the Prison.
The final episode of the Season will probably have them arriving at the Alexandria safe zone. And Season 5 will introduce Negan!
I don't doubt that he's driven to protect the people he cares about.
I just think there is something seriously bent in his head that is entirely separate and represents a real sadistic and psychotic monkey riding around shotgun in his brain. He may say that watching the walkers in the water keeps him sharp, but it seems more like the time honored tradition of serial killers keeping trophies around to remind them of "just how good it feels to be me."
Last 2 eps have been great, very nice change from the prison. Almost wish they had properly ditched the comics and had Shane leave instead of being killed so that he could come back later in Martinez's group, furious about Lori's death once he finds out. Seems like the new tank driver character is a way of introducing another Shane-type character to the show, so that should be fun.
Hopefully next week will be a proper version of last season's weak finale. The preview looked pretty cool.
Lint wrote: I don't doubt that he's driven to protect the people he cares about.
I just think there is something seriously bent in his head that is entirely separate and represents a real sadistic and psychotic monkey riding around shotgun in his brain. He may say that watching the walkers in the water keeps him sharp, but it seems more like the time honored tradition of serial killers keeping trophies around to remind them of "just how good it feels to be me."
I don't deny that hes nuts. I just disagree that he was always that way. Everything we know about the TV Governor points to him having been a timid, weak character prior to the zombie apocalypse. I think it was the experience of losing his loved ones that made this way. He thinks that you have to be a violent psychopath to survive and protect your loved ones, so its more a survival mechanism than a natural aspect of his personality.
"Penny would be afraid of me. But if I'd been this way from the beginning, she'd still be alive". -Season 3, when Andrea asks him what would his daughter think of him.
I think that 'The Governor' was made, not born. And as such, his character serves as a foreshadowing for the type of person that people like Rick (and Carl in particular) could become as a result of their experiences.
I think I'm mostly with Lint regarding the Governor. While I do think that he's motivated to protect and that it was that motivation that triggered his "Governor gene" again, there's also something seriously wrong with him. Put simply, you can protect those you care about and make hard and even terrible calls without torturing people, running zombie games, keeping heads in jars, etc.
Regarding the future,
Spoiler:
...everything we've seen is that they like to give the comic's storyline a shakeup. So I'm expecting some curveballs. Personally, I'd like to see Judith live partially because of the little spot of hope she brings, but mostly because it would throw some additional complications at Rick.
It'd be very easy for the writers to kill off Judith. In many ways she's a complication for them too, and one that they've been ducking somewhat by having her off cloistered with Beth. But I'd like to see Rick, Carl and Judith escape together as a family on the run just to throw a curve in the comic dynamic.
The more I think about it, the more I think Tara will be the one to off the Gov. She's the one who's younger, implusive, more "full of it" and always seeking to impress. She'll go in gung-ho, do something she immediately regrets, and then set matters straight. Besides, she's been talking up her S&W way too much, and it'll bring things full circle to where she should have shot him the moment he showed up at their door.
Herschel and Beth would appear to be on the chopping block. I don't think Maggie and/or Glenn will get it -- they're the romantic focus for the show -- and obviously neither will Rick. Daryl's become too much of a draw at this point, so it won't be him either. Michonne seems off-limits just because there seems to be much more with her character that they can explore. But is she? I'm at least a tiny bit unsure.
I think something's going to occur with Bob at the middle of it. Bob was a Woodbury guy in the comic, and I still think there's going to be some kind of connection there in the show.
Glad they didn't try to reform The Governor. Seems like the next episode is going to be a do over of last year's disappointing finale and make it more like the comic. They made the Governor more villainous and this time they're bringing the tank and people who are not extras will actually die.
Khornholio wrote: So who destroyed the camp they came across in the woods after the Guv offed his ex-number 2? It wasn't Zombies. It wasn't them. Who?
I'm thinking a rogue military unit. Whoever chopped that dude's head off and tied him to a tree, and left all of those heads alive in the trailer.
It was the guy that owned the house and had blown his own head off on the front porch that did that.
My bet is that we'll never know what happened in that camp. We don't need to know everything that is happening around the protagonists, having these random events thrown around that show the viewers only the parts that intersect with the main story adds immersion to the show.
Anybody else think it's implausible a group that actually includes many military people would just accept the leadership of some guy who showed up like a week before?
Haven't seen Sunday's episode yet, but its starting to sound...stupid. I really liked the Governor as a separate story. It would have been nice to show them "on the road" as it were or such to provide a counterpoint to the Prison, or alternatively as part of a new group for a few episodes and have Prison survivors run into them and seek refuge.
Khornholio wrote: So who destroyed the camp they came across in the woods after the Guv offed his ex-number 2? It wasn't Zombies. It wasn't them. Who?
gorgon wrote: I think there's a good chance it's just some anonymous group that doesn't really matter for the storyline.
Then again, it could be that the writers are laying some groundwork for the introduction of another group that they're saving for another season.
My theory...
Spoiler:
The Hunters. The gang of cannibals from the comics, who attack Dale and amputate his leg for food.
They won't be revealed until after the Prison is overrun,
Spoiler:
and Rick reunites with the rest of the survivors (but before they encounter Abraham and co).
Aaaaaaaaaaaaand heres the twist...
Spoiler:
Seeing as Dale's already dead, it'll be DARYL who gets his leg chopped off and eaten. Which would be ironic considering hes a hunter himself
.
The preview for the next episode indicates that Hershel gets captured. Hes fleeing from something (walkers and/or the Governor's people, probably), and is crossing what appears to be that little footbridge outside the Prison. Someone blocks his way, Hershel draws his gun but the other guy draws faster. Hershel probably surrenders at this point.
Spoiler:
In the comics, after the Governor's intial attack on the prison fails and the Woodbury Army flees, Michonne and Tyreese head out of the Prison following them. But they get spotted, and are attacked. Michonne loses her sword but escapes. Tyreese however is captured. The Governor brings Tyreese to the prison and beheads him with Michonne's sword.
It seems that they're going to keep Tyreese around a while longer, and Hershel & Michonne are already outside the prison with the Governor seemingly about to shoot at them. I think Michonne will escape, but Hershel will be captured and beheaded with the katana.
If the showrunners decide to off Tyreese too (maybe because Sasha is killed) then he'll be given Hershels comic book death. "Dear god, just kill me now" > Governor blows his brains out. Otherwise they may keep him around a while longer.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gorgon wrote: I think I'm mostly with Lint regarding the Governor. While I do think that he's motivated to protect and that it was that motivation that triggered his "Governor gene" again, there's also something seriously wrong with him. Put simply, you can protect those you care about and make hard and even terrible calls without torturing people, running zombie games, keeping heads in jars, etc.
I agree, he is clearly nuts. I just think its the apocalypse that drove him nuts. He obviously wasn't a serial killer before it started.
cadbren wrote: Where did the tank come from as I thought the US military no longer used Pattons? Shouldn't it be an Abrams?
While we don't know the make up of the camp, is there some fuel dump there to keep the thing going?
Patton? It may actually be a 60 which would still be around in some guard units potentially. I don't think we ever permanently mothballed them, just stored them. Fun fact, the US actually made a heavy before the M-1. It looked like the M60 but with very heavy armor.
I assumed that it was an M60. Although my understanding is that the M60 has totally been replaced by M-1s even in National Guard units. I could be wrong
The answer may simply be that they have the tank that the producers could get cheaply.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: This apocalypse doesn't seem to bad. Food, water, ammo and gas are plentiful. Everyone pretty much drives everywhere.
When the vast majority of the populace is dead or shambling around eating brains, it leaves a lot of goods available for everyone else. Depending on how fast stuff went down determines exactly how much of a surplus there'd be.
cadbren wrote: Where did the tank come from as I thought the US military no longer used Pattons? Shouldn't it be an Abrams?
While we don't know the make up of the camp, is there some fuel dump there to keep the thing going?
So suspension of disbelief is just not your thing or do you really like to nitpick minor things in this show?
Because if you are going that route there are much bigger plot holes to complain about.
I love nitpicking minor things - and major ones. How about joining the conversation and telling us about some of the major holes that you've thought of.
As for the tank, I did want to know from a curiosity pov as there are active and retired service people on DakkaDakka who might know.
I like to think about my entertainment somewhat rather than be all spoonfed-like and leave it at that, it helps me enjoy the setting more.
The Hunters. The gang of cannibals from the comics, who attack Dale and amputate his leg for food.
That would be a great twist. I don't read the comic, so I'm not watching the show from that standpoint. I'd like to see it become the case on the show.
cadbren wrote: Where did the tank come from as I thought the US military no longer used Pattons? Shouldn't it be an Abrams?
While we don't know the make up of the camp, is there some fuel dump there to keep the thing going?
So suspension of disbelief is just not your thing or do you really like to nitpick minor things in this show?
Because if you are going that route there are much bigger plot holes to complain about.
I love nitpicking minor things - and major ones. How about joining the conversation and telling us about some of the major holes that you've thought of.
As for the tank, I did want to know from a curiosity pov as there are active and retired service people on DakkaDakka who might know.
I like to think about my entertainment somewhat rather than be all spoonfed-like and leave it at that, it helps me enjoy the setting more.
The timeline has advanced what? Close to 2 years since Rick woke up?
Practically all the cars that they find are still running without any problems when in reality a car that isn't run regularly would find its battery dead, its tires deteriorated (not to mention without any air), and even its fuels should have gone bad by now (gasoline only has a shelf life of about 1 year).
All the non-canned food and medicines should have expired by now, yet just this last episode we are treated to images of people drinking cans of still foaming beer.
There is not one, but two deadly viruses rampant, but the second one, despite killing a seemingly healthy person in a couple of days and spreading like wildfire, is easily defeated by the human body's defences if you just treat a couple of the symptoms.
In the last episode there was an entire camp of people killed by gunfire, but despite being in the vicinity (they were walking everywhere), none of the protagonists hear a single thing.
The show decided to not address how difficult life is in the Apocalypse and more on who The Governor is sleeping with currently. Anyway, looks like we'll finally be done with all that next episode with a very special season 3 finale do-over episode.
Otherwise you'll have a more to complain about like how the only thing that requires more than the staggering amount of diesel it takes to run a tank is using a tank to just scare people a bit and then drive it back.
The Hunters. The gang of cannibals from the comics, who attack Dale and amputate his leg for food.
That would be a great twist. I don't read the comic, so I'm not watching the show from that standpoint. I'd like to see it become the case on the show.
...led by Carol
That made me choke. Now THAT would an ironic twist. Carol on a meat only diet.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: The show decided to not address how difficult life is in the Apocalypse and more on who The Governor is sleeping with currently. Anyway, looks like we'll finally be done with all that next episode with a very special season 3 finale do-over episode.
Otherwise you'll have a more to complain about like how the only thing that requires more than the staggering amount of diesel it takes to run a tank is using a tank to just scare people a bit and then drive it back.
I don't know if that was a reply to my post, but I literally couldn't care less about all the plot holes in the show that are like the ones that I mentioned.
As long as the story universe maintains a decent semblance of internal coherency I can happily ignore all these little inconsistencies. To me a TV show is like someone telling a story, if the author decides to embellish the story a little (by making guns have infinite ammo until they don't because a plot point needs to be made, for example), or ignore details that don't enhance that story (like the fact that no one ever goes to the bathroom in these shows), that doesn't detract anything from the story being told.
TV shows and movies are brainless entertainment, if you start thinking too much about the details then the whole immersive experience that they are supposed to provide falls apart... If I wan't a way to pass the time that requires actual thinking then I'll go read a book or play a game.
PhantomViper wrote: Practically all the cars that they find are still running without any problems when in reality a car that isn't run regularly would find its battery dead, its tires deteriorated (not to mention without any air), and even its fuels should have gone bad by now (gasoline only has a shelf life of about 1 year).
All the non-canned food and medicines should have expired by now, yet just this last episode we are treated to images of people drinking cans of still foaming beer.
There is not one, but two deadly viruses rampant, but the second one, despite killing a seemingly healthy person in a couple of days and spreading like wildfire, is easily defeated by the human body's defences if you just treat a couple of the symptoms.
They show the cars that work most of the time and have shown the ones that don't as well (dead batteries, bad tires, etc) a couple times. Canned food might expire but it doesn't mean you can't eat it after the expiration date. Most expiration dates benefit the food creation industry and not public health. As for Gasoline only having a shelf life of a year, I find that interesting since my lawn mower gas gets refilled about once every 1-2 years and it still works. I think you may be overestimating how much things deteriorate.
As for diseases, the symptoms are literally what kill you in most cases. Generally, it is your immune system going into overdrive to burn it out and killing you in the process.
PhantomViper wrote: To me a TV show is like someone telling a story, if the author decides to embellish the story a little (by making guns have infinite ammo until they don't because a plot point needs to be made, for example),
Late this season Rick will run into a character called Eugene Porter. In the comics, Rick has Eugene manufacturing home made bullets to supply the resistance against Negan. I expect this will be the plot point you're referring to.
The timeline has advanced what? Close to 2 years since Rick woke up?
Practically all the cars that they find are still running without any problems when in reality a car that isn't run regularly would find its battery dead, its tires deteriorated (not to mention without any air), and even its fuels should have gone bad by now (gasoline only has a shelf life of about 1 year).
I've used old fuel in my mower quite happily. I suspect the shelf life is more to do with optimum use rather than becoming useless - it's still a liquid hydrocarbon and capable of combusting.
All the non-canned food and medicines should have expired by now, yet just this last episode we are treated to images of people drinking cans of still foaming beer.
As you say though, non-canned foods have expired and beer is a canned product. I found a can of beer under my house which I suspect dated from the 1980s as it was with a newspaper from that time and the can was an old type. I wasn't prepared to drink it though the can itself was well preserved with minimal rust from sitting on clay for a few decades.
I can't comment on medical supplies except to say that they all have expiry dates though I would think that medication stored in airtight containers would still offer some benefit long after those dates came and went.
There is not one, but two deadly viruses rampant, but the second one, despite killing a seemingly healthy person in a couple of days and spreading like wildfire, is easily defeated by the human body's defences if you just treat a couple of the symptoms.
It seems unlikely that they would be able to effect a cure without the services of a medical lab and someone trained to use one, something your average doctor is not capable of, let alone a veterinarian or medic. In such a situation I would think that everyone who wasn't immune would die, or if no one was immune then they'd all die.
In the last episode there was an entire camp of people killed by gunfire, but despite being in the vicinity (they were walking everywhere), none of the protagonists hear a single thing.
I had a problem with that too. I decided that the attackers must have used quieter weapons of some kind such as arrows, something the Governor hints at, at the end when he's talking about conserving the ammunition for facing people.
They would have collected the arrows at the end like we've seen Daryl do so as to recycle them.
I think though that it's a lot less than two years.
Lori got pregnant outside of Atlanta right? She was not sure if it was Rick's or Shane's so I guess it happened not long after Rick woke up. So when she gave birth at the prison, 9 months had passed. How much time has passed since then? Not a year, maybe a couple of months. That would suggest that the zombie infection has been around for a little over a year.
cadbren wrote: Where did the tank come from as I thought the US military no longer used Pattons? Shouldn't it be an Abrams?
While we don't know the make up of the camp, is there some fuel dump there to keep the thing going?
I have to agree. I was surprised to see a tank that's been out of service in the US for nearly 20 years.
Not only that...but the amount of fuel that those things guzzle...where is all that coming from?
I know...I know...suspension of disbelief...but still, there are just some things that are a little hard to swallow.
* * * * *
I knew the Governor couldn't change, he's just too far gone for any hope of redemption.
^^ Don't watch 'A bridge too far'. When the Waffen SS show up in 1970s Leopard Tanks the whole movie kind of whimpers over the suspension of disbelief line. (...Or maybe the Nazis did have a working Time machine?!) Still a rad movie though.
'A Bridge Too Far'? Sounds like the real thing compared to 'The Norseman' starring Lee Majors. That and 'Pathfinder' would be a close race for the worst viking film ever. They even had a black viking called Thrall, which means slave.
Yup, these guys are what I think of when the word viking comes up.
Tyreese's beheading at the hands of the Governor became Hershel's death. And Michonne was able to escape, as in the comic.
The instigation for Lilly killing the Governor (Lilly being responsible for baby Judith's death by shooting Lori) became Megan's death at the undefended camp. I was disappointed that she didn't leave him to be eaten alive (as I was disappointed in the comic).
I was surprised that they changed Judith's death to her being eaten. I was expecting Beth to be shot as she fled carrying Judith, though this was even more horrible than that would have been and the original comic version (Lori). Lizzie and her sister are now my two most hated characters, for abandoning her. I think Lizzie is the show version of Billy the psychopath twin (who kills his brother). Lizzie will likely kill her sister at some point. She probably fed Judith to the Walkers.
Rick is seriously wounded, and has to be protected by Carl. The final scene of them leaving the Prison was taken straight from the comics.
My prediction for the next episode.
Episode 9 will be completely Rick and Carl centric. We won't know if the others have survived until at least the end of the episode. It'll be about Rick and Carl on the run, with Carl having to care for the seriously injured Rick.
Andrew1975 wrote: So was Carol just covering for that creepy girl? I get the feeling the creepy kid killed those people.
Thats highly likely...
Spoiler:
I think the truth will come out late in the season, when Lizzie kills her own sister, as the psychopath twin Billy did with his brother. She'll admit the truth to Carl (that she killed Karen and David, and her own sister), then Carl will execute her.
Hopefully Carol will return. If it turns out she didn't do it and was just covering for Lizzie, then I think Carol will take on the traits and character arc of the comic book Andrea (one of the most popular characters in the comics).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, did anyone notice the female Walker that the camera lingered on, right after Lilly shoots the Governor?
I'm pretty sure that was the crazy Irish (?) lady that Rick met in the woods who tried to kill him and feed him to her dead husband's decapitated head.
When she stabbed herself, she asked Rick not to dispose of her corpse so that she'd reanimate.
And it seems the show is catching up to the Comics very fast.
MASSIVE SPOILERS BELOW
For the second half of this season, we (possibly) have:
Spoiler:
Rick and Carl on the run alone. Rick is dying, and Carl has to scavenge supplies to save him.
Reuniting with the rest of the Prison survivors.
Carl kills Lizzie (the crazy psychopath) when she admits to killing David, Karen, her own sister and possibly Judith.
Carol returns to the group, and takes on Andrea's role.
The Hunters, a gang of cannibals attack the group, and kidnap someone, amputatint their leg for food. (I bet this will be Daryl).
Rick's group track the Hunters down, overpower them, and then mutilate them in revenge for Daryl.
Rick and co. encounter Eugene Porter, Abraham Ford and Rosita. Eugene claims to be a government scientist who knows important information about the zombie virus, and needs to get to a safe zone in Washington. Abraham (believing Eugene) is acting as his bodyguard. Everyone agrees to travel to Washington. (Triva - the voice on the radio that Daryl, Michonne, Bob and Tyreese heard when they were out on their excursion may be someone from the 'Alexandria' safe zone from the comics.
Rick and co. make it to Washington, and are welcomed into the Alexandria safe zone.
Next season (5) will probably focus on Volume 16 (A Larger World), 17 (Something to Fear) and 18 (What Comes After). of the comics.
Spoiler:
Rick and co. adjust to their new lives in the safe zone.
Rick acts as a Policeman once again, and polices the safe zone.
Rick assumes leadership when the leader is killed in a zombie attack.
Rick and co. encounter Paul 'Jesus' Monroe, and learn of a network of settlements (the Hilltop Colony and The Kingdom).
Rick learns that they're being terrorised by a violent gang called the Saviours. Rick pledges to stand up to their leader, Negan.
Negan is introduced, Rick confronts him but loses. Negan beats Glenn to death with his baseball bat wrapped with barbed wire (affectionately named "Lucille" to make an example and to intimdate Rick and his people.
The season ends with Rick agreeing to submit to Negan's rule, and will regularly provide a tribute of supplies for the Saviors.
Season 6 will probably focus on Volume 19 (March to War) and 20 (All Out War).
Spoiler:
Rick begins to form a plan to fight the Saviours.
He travels to the Hilltop Colony, and The Kingdom.
He meets with Ezekiel, and they (along with Jesus from the Hilltop) agree an alliance to fight the Saviours.
Their combined forces attack the Saviours' stronghold. They use a vehicle to ram the gates of the Compound, allowing a herd of Walkers to enter. This herd keeps the Saviours trapped inside, giving Rick time to hunt down the scattered groups of Saviours at their various outposts.
...
And that is the currennt point of the comics.
I think TWD will be facing the same potential dilemma as Game of Thrones. The tv show might actually catch up to and overtake the comics. Unless they drag the show out with lots of filler content throughout Seasons 5 and 6, then I think Season 7 may the point at which the show overtakes the comics.
Good episode. That's what the last season finale should have been. Though there's a lot of differences obviously but this was fairly accurate to the comic in it's intensity and result. Should be interesting to see where they go from here.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Good episode. That's what the last season finale should have been. Though there's a lot of differences obviously but this was fairly accurate to the comic in it's intensity and result. Should be interesting to see where they go from here.
No, I think its a good idea that they dragged it out. If they hadn't stretched the Governor storyline out over two Seasons, then they would probably be catching up to and overtaking the comics by next Season. See my previous post.
Though the way they did it could have been done better.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Good episode. That's what the last season finale should have been. Though there's a lot of differences obviously but this was fairly accurate to the comic in it's intensity and result. Should be interesting to see where they go from here.
No, I think its a good idea that they dragged it out. If they hadn't stretched the Governor storyline out over two Seasons, then they would probably be catching up to and overtaking the comics by next Season. See my previous post.
Though the way they did it could have been done better.
I disagree about it being dragged out being a good thing. At this pace it wouldn't overtake the comic until at least season 9 and even if it did it doesn't matter. It's 98% different anyway so the show has already gone it's own way anyway. This is basically the climax of the comic series and now the show can and should go in a 100% different direction. Just fully embrace it's a different entity now.
easysauce wrote: ummm.... I fail to see how the little girl bludgeoned to death two people three times her size/weight and dragged them out to be burnt...
carol killed em.. if she was just covering for the girl, she wouldnt have bothered to fess up.
The kid has a knife. Shes obsessed with Walkers. She probably slit their throats so that they'd come back as Walkers. In her sick twisted mind she probably thinks shes doing them a favour.
Carol found out and covered for her by burning the corpses. Carol is Lizzie's de facto Guardian, and her motherly instincts compel her to protect Lizzie, Carol doesn't want to lose another girl like she did Sophia, so she claimed credit for the murders to protect Lizzie from Tyreese's wrath, and to prevent Lizzie being cast out or punished (what are they gonna do, get her a psychiatrist?).
I disagree about it being dragged out being a good thing. At this pace it wouldn't overtake the comic until at least season 9 and even if it did it doesn't matter. It's 98% different anyway so the show has already gone it's own way anyway. This is basically the climax of the comic series and now the show can and should go in a 100% different direction. Just fully embrace it's a different entity now.
Well, I think its a good thing if they still intend to follow the general arc of the Comics. If they now decide to veer off into original, uncharted territory then that could work I suppose. Though I'll be disappointed if we don't get to see Negan.
Spoiler:
Besides,AFAIK Abraham Ford has already been confirmed for the second half of this season. I think the show is still broadly following the comics. Rick and Carl will be on the run alone for a while with Carl looking after Rick. Then they'll reunite with the survivors. The Hunters will kidnap and eat someone (Daryl? In a perverse, ironic way this would be a cool death for Daryl).Then they'll meet Abraham and his friends, and its on to Washington.
easysauce wrote: ummm.... I fail to see how the little girl bludgeoned to death two people three times her size/weight and dragged them out to be burnt...
carol killed em.. if she was just covering for the girl, she wouldnt have bothered to fess up.
Two very sick people, dragging them might have been with the help of Carol who caught her in the act.
In the comic, Dale gets bit. He's already lost his lower leg after being bitten while at the prison (Hershel is the stand in for this part in the show). He leaves the group to die and gets captured by the cannibal people. I think they took his other leg then dumped him where Rick and co would find him.
I don't see Daryl being bit and done away with like that. He's more likely to be torn apart by a large group if he is to die at all or maybe killed by other survivors.
I think the alcoholic black guy is a more likely candidate for being eaten and then eaten.
They are trying for a different plot, but cannibalism would be likely given that most people don't know how to hunt or trap or even farm. It would be easy to befriend someone and then use them for food, especially if you were starving.
I'm hoping they'll introduce something completely different to the comic like they did with the family the governor finds.
Well, the show has been criticised for killing too many expendable and insignificant redshirts and not having enough deaths with a significant impact (Hershel being the most significant death since Andrea). I think Bob would fall under the expendable Redshirt category. If the showrunners wanted to have a more impactful death then Daryl would be more appropriate.
And that family that the Governor meets was not altogether original. They're based heavily on characters from the Fall of the Governor novel series (the Chalmer family - April, Tara and their father David). Megan was the only original character. In the novels, the Governor meets them before Woodbury, though he was going by his real name Brian Blake at the time. His older, stronger brother Philip Blake is the one who has a relationship with April (Lilly) though he ends up raping her, and Tara responds by throwing the Blake brothers, Penny and Nick (Philip's friend) out of the apartment.
For the show, April Chalmers was merged with the character Lilly Caul. Lilly is the one who kills the Governor in the books and comics (the books are part of the comic canon). Lilly comes to Woodbury, loses her boyfriend Josh Lee Hamilton when hes murdered by a thug demanding their supplies. Later, after the Governor takes control, sickend by his brutality she participates in an attempted coup (along with Ceasar Martinez) but fails, and resents him from then on. Then she kills Lori and Judith during the Woodbury army's attack on the Prison, and shamed by this she kills the Governor.
So Lilly Chambler and her family are not original characters. Lilly is a portmanteau of two characters from the comics and books. They just merged the two character arcs together, and altered the timeline.
As soon as he grabbed Herschel I knew he was done...regardless of what was said. Fans just liked him too much and it was the "best" way to affect an emotional response from them.
Correct me if I'm wrong....but...I don't recall seeing Tyreese or Daryl running off so it wouldn't surprise me if Little Ass Kicker is with one of them.
Things do look to be "back on track," at least in a general way. As always, I'm sure there will be differences from the comic. But I think it's important to remember that no matter how much they talk about things being different from the comic, Kirkman is in all those meetings. While he's probably having fun making changes to the comic storyline, it's still his baby, and I doubt he's in there telling them to throw it all out. Ultimately, the story's a good one and they won't be inclined to do something wildly different.
I was glad that they wrapped up the battle in this episode rather than saving the important parts for February.
And godspeed Herschel. It was funny how emotional things got on the Talking Dead about the character's death. Seemed overdone (I mean, Scott Wilson's still alive, folks), but obviously Wilson was loved by his castmates.
TheMeanDM wrote: As soon as he grabbed Herschel I knew he was done...regardless of what was said. Fans just liked him too much and it was the "best" way to affect an emotional response from them.
Correct me if I'm wrong....but...I don't recall seeing Tyreese or Daryl running off so it wouldn't surprise me if Little Ass Kicker is with one of them.
She's probably with Daryl just to make the female viewership swoon even more.
Edit: Oh, so regarding the earlier gasoline discussion -- ethanol fuels definitely break down and can cause engine fouling. I had a new snowblower that needed a carb replacement after just one offseason, and that was WITH gas that had been treated with fuel stabilizer. Since then, I always run my small engines dry before storage.
I think the gas would have to be pretty old to affect larger automobile engines. But yes, it does break down, and you can mess up a small engine by using old ethanol fuel. Fuel stabilizer would probably give the survivors' gas a little more lifetime, but I tend to think they'd run out before it went bad anyway.
Figure that during the outbreak, fuel delivery was probably interrupted, and there was also probably a run on gas as people tanked up to go god-knows-where. Personally, I think gasoline shortages would be much more of a problem for the survivors than we've seen.
easysauce wrote: ummm.... I fail to see how the little girl bludgeoned to death two people three times her size/weight and dragged them out to be burnt...
carol killed em.. if she was just covering for the girl, she wouldnt have bothered to fess up.
The kid has a knife. Shes obsessed with Walkers. She probably slit their throats so that they'd come back as Walkers. In her sick twisted mind she probably thinks shes doing them a favour.
Carol found out and covered for her by burning the corpses. Carol is Lizzie's de facto Guardian, and her motherly instincts compel her to protect Lizzie, Carol doesn't want to lose another girl like she did Sophia, so she claimed credit for the murders to protect Lizzie from Tyreese's wrath, and to prevent Lizzie being cast out or punished (what are they gonna do, get her a psychiatrist?).
I disagree about it being dragged out being a good thing. At this pace it wouldn't overtake the comic until at least season 9 and even if it did it doesn't matter. It's 98% different anyway so the show has already gone it's own way anyway. This is basically the climax of the comic series and now the show can and should go in a 100% different direction. Just fully embrace it's a different entity now.
Well, I think its a good thing if they still intend to follow the general arc of the Comics. If they now decide to veer off into original, uncharted territory then that could work I suppose. Though I'll be disappointed if we don't get to see Negan.
Spoiler:
Besides,AFAIK Abraham Ford has already been confirmed for the second half of this season. I think the show is still broadly following the comics. Rick and Carl will be on the run alone for a while with Carl looking after Rick. Then they'll reunite with the survivors. The Hunters will kidnap and eat someone (Daryl? In a perverse, ironic way this would be a cool death for Daryl).Then they'll meet Abraham and his friends, and its on to Washington.
Yes, I've heard Abraham is confirmed too. I think they'll still use the same characters (easier than making up new characters all the time) but they should no longer feel like they need to hit the major story arcs of the comic. With the possible exception of a Neegan style story arc because that's basically about civilization being rebuilt and coming out of survivor mode. Such a story is unavoidable anyway but should be way, way down the line.
So Lilly Chambler and her family are not original characters. Lilly is a portmanteau of two characters from the comics and books. They just merged the two character arcs together, and altered the timeline.
I haven't read the books so I guess I know what I'll be putting on my reading list next.
The Rise of the Governor. (The Governor's origin story).
The Fall of the Governor: Road to Woodbury. (Lilly Caul's story).
The Fall of the Governor: Part 2 (to be released next March I believe).
I'm reading them on the Kindle. They're great books, they give a detailed background and explanation of how the Governor descended into his lunacy.
Big Spoilers:
Spoiler:
The 'Governor' of the books was originally a timid man called Brian Blake. His older and stronger brother Philip Blake was the father of Penny. The two brothers and Penny go on the road with a couple of Philip's friends (who die one by one). They run across the Chalmer family and become friends. Philip saves the two sisters, Tara and April (Lilly) when their father is killed by his cancer and reanimates (as in the show). Philip and April begin a relationship, but it falls apart when Philip loses control and rapes April. Tara throws them out of the apartment block and they're forced to hit the road again, but this time without any weapons and only a few supplies.
Eventually, Penny is killed in a shootout when a gang attacks the mansion they're taking shelter in. The father Philip can't bare to let her go so he keeps her reanimated corpse alive. Eventually they arrive at Woodbury, which is at this point being run by a tyrannical group of National Guardsmen.
Philip brings his daughter into Woodbury and hides her. He then kidnaps a young woman, takes her to the woods and tries to rape and kill her (possibly to feed her to Penny, I can't quite recall). His last surving friend, Nick Parsons witnesses Philip kill the girl. Being a religious man, hes sickened by this and kills the now insane Philip Blake. Brian finds out, and in a rage, kills Nick. He leaves the 3 bodies (his brother Philip, Nick and the girl) behind in the woods to be devoured by Walkers.
Brian is now in a rage, having lost all his family and friends, and despises his "Brian Blake" persona for being too weak and cowardly to save them. Its at this point that his Governor persona begins to emerge. At a meeting of all the Woodbury residents called by the Guardsmen, the leader kills a man who defies him. Brian approaches him, and guns him down, and the other Guardsmen are subdued. He then introduces himself to the rest of Woodbury as 'Philip Blake', assuming his deceased brother's identity from that point on.
Woodbury turn to him for leadership, and he eventually becomes known as the Governor.
Later on Lilly arrives at Woodbury, and her on-off lover Josh Lee Hamilton is murdered. The Governor deals with this by forcing the murder to fight one of the Guardsmen to the death in the towns dirt track arena (thus beginning the Woodbury tradition of blood fights). Eventually she begins to chafe under the Governor's brutality and attempts with several others to stage a coup by kidnapping the Governor and feeding him to Walkers. But it fails when a massive herd attacks Woodbury and they're forced to return. The Governor intimdates them into thinking they need him to keep Woodbury safe, and his reign of terror continues. (He's surprisingly 'forgiving'. Instead of killing or hurting them in retribution, he has them do the dirty jobs...chopping up corpses to feed to Walkers etc).
Fall of the Governor Part 1 ends with Lilly vowing to kill the Governor one day, when hes no longer needed.
Oh, and she gets pregnant after shagging a 20 something year old kid (with her being in her mid 30's) called Austin, when they fall in love after a series of harrowing supply runs. It fuels her desire to kill the Governor later on when she takes part in the assault on the Prison. The pregant Lilly kills the new mother Lori and her baby Judith, and a rage takes revenge on the Governor.
Crazy episode although it made me angry at points, it's amazing how attached they get you to these characters, and then to see them die like that.
I agree with earlier, Governor should have died to chewing... but I suppose his end was fitting, as it is his fault the girl dies, leaving her alone with the mother.
Episode summary, karl falls all over the place and then falls all over the place again, michone kills zombies with sword. I just hate watch the show now, it's become a sitcom in a lot of ways. I keep watching hoping somehow it will get better, the first half of the season was pretty dissapointing. Bringing back the governor? Really? I'm happy that's over with, hopefully the other half of the season gets better. Really though, after they got rid of darabont the show went downhill in a big way.
Crablezworth wrote: Episode summary, karl falls all over the place and then falls all over the place again, michone kills zombies with sword. I just hate watch the show now, it's become a sitcom in a lot of ways. I keep watching hoping somehow it will get better, the first half of the season was pretty dissapointing. Bringing back the governor? Really? I'm happy that's over with, hopefully the other half of the season gets better. Really though, after they got rid of darabont the show went downhill in a big way.
Well
Spoiler:
Carl did wack three zombies and escape another one. He's learning.
Michonne was awesome. I'm waiting to see "I am a fully operational battlestation" Tyreese go to town again.
I was disappointed in how silly Carl acted at times, but he is a teenager deep in the 'I hate my dad' section of his life, so I forgive him a little. Mostly, I agree with the Talahassee comment. First step of any home clear should be knocking loudly on each door.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I can't help but wonder why they ditched the rifles they were using in the previous episode.
Because amc is too damn cheap, that's why. Darabont called them out on it and they axed him. That's also why so damn much of the show is "indoors" now because it's cheaper. Hell, even when they use guns they more often than not just opt to add a muzzle flash in post and call it a day, the slides rarely move on the pistols, the m4's never seem to be ejecting shells or are conveninetly shot from the other side. AMC is just cheap, cheap cheap.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I can't help but wonder why they ditched the rifles they were using in the previous episode.
Because amc is too damn cheap, that's why. Darabont called them out on it and they axed him. That's also why so damn much of the show is "indoors" now because it's cheaper.
Umm. I'm not even sure where that is coming from. Although it might be true, did you watch the most recent episode... Because it was mostly outdoors. Also, how is having the same props as a previous episode more expensive. And why am I even responding to this...
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I can't help but wonder why they ditched the rifles they were using in the previous episode.
Because amc is too damn cheap, that's why. Darabont called them out on it and they axed him. That's also why so damn much of the show is "indoors" now because it's cheaper.
Umm. I'm not even sure where that is coming from. Although it might be true, did you watch the most recent episode... Because it was mostly outdoors. Also, how is having the same props as a previous episode more expensive. And why am I even responding to this...
The attitude is not necessary.
It's not just the props, if they're actually using an armoror and firing blanks or squibs it adds a lot to their effects budget, a lot of which I'm sure is taken up my makeup.
As for shooting indoor vs outdoor, outdoor is much much more expensive, you need a larger crew and time of day and weather are factors no budget are able to control. The second you're indoor whether on a sound stage or on location the costs go way down. That's why the show is so lazy, a season ona farm and two seasons at a prison.
Look at the first season of house of cards as an example, they spend a large portion of their budget on the first 3 epsiodes then it switches to indoor and all of a sudden feels a lot cheaper. Especially considering the huge set pieces earlier in the season,
I'm a fan of the first seasons, everything after has left me dissapointed. I'd rather have 6 episodes a season that are memorable, have good writing and very good budgets.
So repeat question, because the first episode of this season was mostly outside. A bunch of the last season was travelling/outside stuff. I get where you are coming from but I don't know that it all matches up with reality.
Think about both locations, a forest and a neighbourhood. It's a smart way to shave costs but that's sorta where I want them to spend money, now I don't expect them to make a forest look post apocalyptic, the neighbourhood could have used a bit more dressing up though.
If if you've ever seen the stargate tv show, there's a reason every planet they visit looks like a british columbian forest. The first season really sold you the viewer on the whole world, it was really up there with shows like game of thrones for doing a fantastic job with their set pieces. I mean look at the iconic shot of going into atlanta with one side of the highway empty and the side leaving it full of car wrecks. That stays with you.
Crablezworth wrote: Think about both locations, a forest and a neighbourhood. It's a smart way to shave costs but that's sorta where I want them to spend money, now I don't expect them to make a forest look post apocalyptic, the neighbourhood could have used a bit more dressing up.
If if you've ever seen the stargate tv show, there's a reason every planet they visit looks like a british columbian forest.
And a BBQ joint, and last season a town where they pick up the baby stuff (that was last season, right?) and the veterinary hospital, etc, so on.
I honestly don't know what you expect Crablezworth. You cite GoT but they've been using the same sets for the majority of the series. And just this year in Walking Dead we've had:
-Helicopter thru the Piggly Wiggly and air zombies
-Home in the woods
-Prison upgrade including new wings and farming
-the university
-couple of camps
-deteriorated apartment building
-3 different destroyed neighborhoods
-BBQ joint
And I'm probably missing some. And that doesn't count the ridiculous number zombies we've seen this season. And a couple of great mothering zombie and human battles. I don't really know what you're looking for. But the money is there and I think being used well.
Plus they shouldn't be in huge developments. Huge developments and larger towns means hundreds of thousands of zombies which makes it a bad idea.
I'm still not really enjoying the show anymore. Sort of watching out of obligation now.
I'd summary the episode as:
So, kid was a jerk. Then had an unpleasant walk. Decided to be less of a jerk, while the badass chick had a bit of a breakdown, but got better. Oh, and Thorin's [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Ryan%27s_Strike_Back]Backstabber[/url] took a nap.
Hulksmash wrote: I honestly don't know what you expect Crablezworth.
Fewer episodes a season but higher quality episodes. I expect seasons as good as season 1 was. If it takes cutting the air time in half to do it then so be it. Quality over quantity. Oh and I want Darabont back... badly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Compel wrote: I'm still not really enjoying the show anymore. Sort of watching out of obligation now.
Frazzled wrote: Well come on, he is only supposed to be what 14 here.
Only 14? gak he has had two years to train with Shane, Rick, Daryl Slayer of Tanks. If a child soldier can do it with minimal training and while high, Carl should be able to do it better as he has been trained... Better.
Frazzled wrote: Well come on, he is only supposed to be what 14 here.
Only 14? gak he has had two years to train with Shane, Rick, Daryl Slayer of Tanks. If a child soldier can do it with minimal training and while high, Carl should be able to do it better as he has been trained... Better.
Well earlier in the season he was a killing machine. In this he was a killing machine, he's just not good at retreating-clearly a Marine at heart. How 'bout you? How many head shots could you make at 14?
Frazzled wrote: Well come on, he is only supposed to be what 14 here.
Only 14? gak he has had two years to train with Shane, Rick, Daryl Slayer of Tanks. If a child soldier can do it with minimal training and while high, Carl should be able to do it better as he has been trained... Better.
Well earlier in the season he was a killing machine. In this he was a killing machine, he's just not good at retreating-clearly a Marine at heart. How 'bout you? How many head shots could you make at 14?
Well, the answer is of course all of them. This forum is full of hardcore stone-cold killas, haven't you learned that by now?
Frazzled wrote: Well come on, he is only supposed to be what 14 here.
Only 14? gak he has had two years to train with Shane, Rick, Daryl Slayer of Tanks. If a child soldier can do it with minimal training and while high, Carl should be able to do it better as he has been trained... Better.
Well earlier in the season he was a killing machine. In this he was a killing machine, he's just not good at retreating-clearly a Marine at heart. How 'bout you? How many head shots could you make at 14?
Well, the answer is of course all of them. This forum is full of hardcore stone-cold killas, haven't you learned that by now?
Frazzled wrote: Well come on, he is only supposed to be what 14 here.
Only 14? gak he has had two years to train with Shane, Rick, Daryl Slayer of Tanks. If a child soldier can do it with minimal training and while high, Carl should be able to do it better as he has been trained... Better.
Well earlier in the season he was a killing machine. In this he was a killing machine, he's just not good at retreating-clearly a Marine at heart. How 'bout you? How many head shots could you make at 14?
With two years of training at less than 50ft probably most of them. On my high school rifle team I averaged around 270/300 30 targets standing kneeling prone.
Frazzled wrote: Well come on, he is only supposed to be what 14 here.
Only 14? gak he has had two years to train with Shane, Rick, Daryl Slayer of Tanks. If a child soldier can do it with minimal training and while high, Carl should be able to do it better as he has been trained... Better.
Well earlier in the season he was a killing machine. In this he was a killing machine, he's just not good at retreating-clearly a Marine at heart. How 'bout you? How many head shots could you make at 14?
With two years of training at less than 50ft probably most of them. On my high school rifle team I averaged around 270/300 30 targets standing kneeling prone.
-Jr. High kid -moving target -moving shooter -freehand pistol world of difference.
I shoot head shots all the time in competition. But I'm driving a competition gun, the targets aren't moving, and the targets won't bite my face if I miss...
Well in this episode, Carl does miss...a lot. He misses half of his shots at least. He kills 3 walkers only when they're at point blank range, collapsing on top of him. He accidentally discharges his gun and hits a ceiling when hes jumped in the house. He thinks his dad has died and turned, but chokes and can't bring himself to kill "walker Rick".
You're exaggerating a wee bit with the "killing machine" remark.
Frazzled wrote: Well come on, he is only supposed to be what 14 here.
Only 14? gak he has had two years to train with Shane, Rick, Daryl Slayer of Tanks. If a child soldier can do it with minimal training and while high, Carl should be able to do it better as he has been trained... Better.
Well earlier in the season he was a killing machine. In this he was a killing machine, he's just not good at retreating-clearly a Marine at heart. How 'bout you? How many head shots could you make at 14?
With two years of training at less than 50ft probably most of them. On my high school rifle team I averaged around 270/300 30 targets standing kneeling prone.
-Jr. High kid
-moving target
-moving shooter
-freehand pistol
world of difference.
I shoot head shots all the time in competition. But I'm driving a competition gun, the targets aren't moving, and the targets won't bite my face if I miss...
Again after two years of training with the people above, Probably would of learned to bait zeds away and I would of taken a .22 or a larger caliber Rifle I could handle from the laundry hamper of guns they had instead of his handgun with 5 bullets.
The zombies move pretty dam slow. You're acting like the zeds are running and ducking for cover, if anything goes wrong I'd pull a michonne and walk away briskly. You shoot competition you know breath control and timing, even if there moving you should be able to see how each one moves and time your shots accordingly.
To be fair, what's needed also isn't just any old head shot but a lethal brain injury. Hits to the lower 2/3rds of the head may only end up blowing off some pieces.
Now multiply that by all of Frazz's conditions and oh, I dunno, the stress of rotting animated corpses coming to eat your flesh, and personally I think you're absolutely *nuts* to compare it to a competition target shooting situation.
gorgon wrote: To be fair, what's needed also isn't just any old head shot but a lethal brain injury. Hits to the lower 2/3rds of the head may only end up blowing off some pieces.
Now multiply that by all of Frazz's conditions and oh, I dunno, the stress of rotting animated corpses coming to eat your flesh, and personally I think you're absolutely *nuts* to compare it to a competition target shooting situation.
Again the only comparison between them that I am making is breath control and timing. These are lessons you should be taught anyways when learning to shoot. Great the zombies are moving towards you in a strait line swaying back and forth in a set pattern, time the movements and fire. If they're getting close back up and rinse repeat. Carl has been trained over the past two years, the fact that he keeps making stupid choices is annoying.
Season 3 Carl used two hands with his pistol and would adopt a stance when killing zeds. Now he is running around taking shots with one hand. He went from a good shooter to a very gakky one.
Season 3 Carl used two hands with his pistol and would adopt a stance when killing zeds. Now he is running around taking shots with one hand. He went from a good shooter to a very gakky one.
Perhaps he bought into his own hype. Carl is an angsty teen who has done some pretty bad ass stuff when other bad asses he looks up to have failed. Doesn't seem like much of a stretch for a young teen to start believing he is Jason Bourne and acting like an idiot.
I'd completely forgotten that it was starting up again until I saw a review on you tube, I think that they should go back to a survivalist style like in season 1. I was never really a big fan of Carls, but after last night I feel like he's just an absolute idiot after about 2 years you'd think you'd realize not to take liberties with zombies.
I'd completely forgotten that it was starting up again until I saw a review on you tube, I think that they should go back to a survivalist style like in season 1. I was never really a big fan of Carls, but after last night I feel like he's just an absolute idiot after about 2 years you'd think you'd realize not to take liberties with zombies.
Public highschool in North Viriginia, There was a range under the school for us but they stoped using it in the 90's because of the "Muh chillinz" people (Even though every other school in the district still had their ranges up).
And now that I think back on it its hilarious. The Area I lived in was Super Left (Arlington), the school gave me and the other members of the team rifles and most of use lived in apartments that overlooked the school or the downtown area.
pretre wrote: I was disappointed in how silly Carl acted at times, but he is a teenager deep in the 'I hate my dad' section of his life, so I forgive him a little. Mostly, I agree with the Talahassee comment. First step of any home clear should be knocking loudly on each door.
and he watched his Mum gutted to remove his little sister that subsequently got "lost" after the tank assault and after the horror of seeing his Mum split open, put a bullet in her brain. He's stable...
I'm glad it is back on TV. It gives me something to watch on Monday afternoon. As for all the plot turns and comparison with the comics, I'm too much of a casual fan to really care. My internal sharkjumpometer will go off if need be. So far so good.
I think it was an excellent episode and my wife summed it up well:
"It's over already! There's so much more!"
I loved the episode.And Glenn is the shiz. And thank goodness Rick hadn't gotten around to telling Tyreese why Carol didn't come back before it hit the fan
I thought it was another great episode except for the final shot. I'm sure those characters probably have some big relevance to the comic book readers, and it's pretty clear they posed them in that shot like it was a panel from a comic book, but I literally lol'd (in a bad way).
Spoiler:
I mean, c'mon, that LOOKS like a joke...the 'hot' lady in tiny camo shorts/shirt, the dude with a mullet and a hot head soldier with a handlebar mustache?
This is a case of sticking too closely to the source material I'm guessing, even when it looks incredibly cheesy in live action. I just hope the characters are interesting enough to overcome this initial impression.
I mean, c'mon, that LOOKS like a joke...the 'hot' lady in tiny camo shorts/shirt, the dude with a mullet and a hot head soldier with a handlebar mustache?
This is a case of sticking too closely to the source material I'm guessing, even when it looks incredibly cheesy in live action. I just hope the characters are interesting enough to overcome this initial impression.
Spoiler:
Yep, I laughed at the lady in the mid-riff camo shirt and my wife said "Give me a break". It wouldn't be the first panel they put directly into the shot (although at least this one was cool);
Although it's not the hardest laugh I've had at a camera shot. I literally had a spit take when they somehow managed to make Shane even more ridiculous;
It's almost like I hate watch this now. But I guess I still watch it....
I'm beginning to enjoy the show a bit more now that they're back on the road, feels a lot more like they're post apocalyptic show and less like a soap drama.
I thought it was another great episode except for the final shot. I'm sure those characters probably have some big relevance to the comic book readers, and it's pretty clear they posed them in that shot like it was a panel from a comic book, but I literally lol'd (in a bad way).
Spoiler:
I mean, c'mon, that LOOKS like a joke...the 'hot' lady in tiny camo shorts/shirt, the dude with a mullet and a hot head soldier with a handlebar mustache?
This is a case of sticking too closely to the source material I'm guessing, even when it looks incredibly cheesy in live action. I just hope the characters are interesting enough to overcome this initial impression.
I think they are close enough to their comic book counterparts so they are instantly recognizable:
Yeah, realistically I don't know if Glenn would have been able to push through them like that. Sure, he's wearing armor and they're mindless, etc., but all those zombies still have MASS. I'm not really trying to nitpick and bring reality into it so much as say wow, Glenn is one motivated individual.
@yak -- Abraham is probably one of the most loved characters among fans of the comic. I think that last shot was as you said -- mostly a nod to the comic fans to say "Abraham has arrived!"
I don't know if he could have but I reconcile it with the fact that he also didn't have to dive into the middle of them either. He could have shoulder his way through around the edges of the slow moving crowd. So while he might not have been able to push through that many zombies (especially while still sick) he could have made so I'm ok with it.
Plus it gave us some great shots and made Glenn look more awesome.
@yak -- Abraham is probably one of the most loved characters among fans of the comic. I think that last shot was as you said -- mostly a nod to the comic fans to say "Abraham has arrived!"
@yak -- Abraham is probably one of the most loved characters among fans of the comic. I think that last shot was as you said -- mostly a nod to the comic fans to say "Abraham has arrived!"
Frazzled wrote: To be clear, why is he the most loved? You can spoiler if needed.
Spoiler:
In the comic book Rick goes through a Bunch of "Right hand man/ physical badass" type characters. Tyreese was one and played a much bigger role in the comic than he has in the show. When Tyreese gets killed there is a void, and eventually Abraham stumbles in and he becomes the new "Right hand man/physical badass". Until of course he gets killed to. No real spoilers there, in the comic pretty much everyone dies or gets really messed up, nobody really gets spared.
The thing is that on the show Darrel has really taken over the 2IC spot for the most part. While Darrel is a badass he is not a hulk of a man like Tyreese or Abraham. It will be interesting to see what role he play in the new show. Its hard to remember back this far without rereading.l
Frazzled wrote: To be clear, why is he the most loved? You can spoiler if needed.
He did say "one of"
I must admit I was always fairly ambivlent about him - Andrea is my fav character by a long way - which is why I didn’t like her in the tv show. But then it’s always difficult to translate from one medium to another - even when both are visual......
Caroline is my all time fav in the Vampire Diaries but apparently nothing like her character in the books................
I'm loving it, definitely missed it while it's been gone!
But am I the only one hoping that Carl dies or becomes a walker, with each passing episode he becomes more of a jerk wit this whole "I'm 14 and can take care or myself now I don't need anyone" angsty behavior of his, especially when he has a massive go at his Rick when he's laying half dead on the sofa after taking a hell of a beating from the governor, ugh, hating the boy more and more.
But if/when Beth dies, man I'm going to be heartbroken, easily my favorite character of the current lot
tomball0706 wrote: I'm loving it, definitely missed it while it's been gone!
But am I the only one hoping that Carl dies or becomes a walker, with each passing episode he becomes more of a jerk wit this whole "I'm 14 and can take care or myself now I don't need anyone" angsty behavior of his, especially when he has a massive go at his Rick when he's laying half dead on the sofa after taking a hell of a beating from the governor, ugh, hating the boy more and more.
But if/when Beth dies, man I'm going to be heartbroken, easily my favorite character of the current lot
Having just read the comic books, Carl makes a lot more sense there since in that scene you're talking about he's 7 or 8.
tomball0706 wrote: I'm loving it, definitely missed it while it's been gone!
But am I the only one hoping that Carl dies or becomes a walker, with each passing episode he becomes more of a jerk wit this whole "I'm 14 and can take care or myself now I don't need anyone" angsty behavior of his, especially when he has a massive go at his Rick when he's laying half dead on the sofa after taking a hell of a beating from the governor, ugh, hating the boy more and more.
But if/when Beth dies, man I'm going to be heartbroken, easily my favorite character of the current lot
Having just read the comic books, Carl makes a lot more sense there since in that scene you're talking about he's 7 or 8.
Wait what, he's 7/8? I presumed that he was in the age range of 13/14? My mistake, still doesn't make me like him anymore
tomball0706 wrote: I'm loving it, definitely missed it while it's been gone!
But am I the only one hoping that Carl dies or becomes a walker, with each passing episode he becomes more of a jerk wit this whole "I'm 14 and can take care or myself now I don't need anyone" angsty behavior of his, especially when he has a massive go at his Rick when he's laying half dead on the sofa after taking a hell of a beating from the governor, ugh, hating the boy more and more.
But if/when Beth dies, man I'm going to be heartbroken, easily my favorite character of the current lot
Having just read the comic books, Carl makes a lot more sense there since in that scene you're talking about he's 7 or 8.
Wait what, he's 7/8? I presumed that he was in the age range of 13/14? My mistake, still doesn't make me like him anymore
Yeah, in the comics he is 7 or 8. Obviously, that wouldn't work as well on the screen. Also, in the comics, he never had that badass phase that TV Carl went through in the last season or so. So when he is all alone with his dad and his dad is passed the F'out, it's a lot more of a big deal.
tomball0706 wrote: I'm loving it, definitely missed it while it's been gone!
But am I the only one hoping that Carl dies or becomes a walker, with each passing episode he becomes more of a jerk wit this whole "I'm 14 and can take care or myself now I don't need anyone" angsty behavior of his, especially when he has a massive go at his Rick when he's laying half dead on the sofa after taking a hell of a beating from the governor, ugh, hating the boy more and more.
But if/when Beth dies, man I'm going to be heartbroken, easily my favorite character of the current lot
Having just read the comic books, Carl makes a lot more sense there since in that scene you're talking about he's 7 or 8.
Wait what, he's 7/8? I presumed that he was in the age range of 13/14? My mistake, still doesn't make me like him anymore
Yeah, in the comics he is 7 or 8. Obviously, that wouldn't work as well on the screen. Also, in the comics, he never had that badass phase that TV Carl went through in the last season or so. So when he is all alone with his dad and his dad is passed the F'out, it's a lot more of a big deal.
Ahhhhh, well thank you for clearing that up, really need to get round to reading the comics, I have a fair few of them but can never seem to find the time sadly
tomball0706 wrote: Ahhhhh, well thank you for clearing that up, really need to get round to reading the comics, I have a fair few of them but can never seem to find the time sadly
Throw them in the bathroom or something.
I picked up 1-17 last week and am done; they are really a quick read.
tomball0706 wrote: Ahhhhh, well thank you for clearing that up, really need to get round to reading the comics, I have a fair few of them but can never seem to find the time sadly
Throw them in the bathroom or something.
I picked up 1-17 last week and am done; they are really a quick read.
I'm currently re-reading the entire Heresy at the moment, and using them as a break from books if that makes sense? And hey, how do you think I get in most of my reading time
tomball0706 wrote: But am I the only one hoping that Carl dies or becomes a walker, with each passing episode he becomes more of a jerk wit this whole "I'm 14 and can take care or myself now I don't need anyone" angsty behavior of his, especially when he has a massive go at his Rick when he's laying half dead on the sofa after taking a hell of a beating from the governor, ugh, hating the boy more and more.
Na man, give Carl a chance. This is the point in the comics at which he begins to come into his own and become a more interesting character. The "mini-Governor" story arc that Carl's had for the last two seasons is going to continue for a while, as Carl's attitude and outlook continues to be hardened by encounters with villains.
COMIC SPOILERS
Spoiler:
His interactions with the next Big Bad of the comics, Negan, are particularly interesting. Rick and co. reach a new safe haven in Washington and are welcomed, only to discover that this new community is being terrorised by a gang of armed thugs known as the Saviours, lead by Negan. Rick stands up to them but loses and a popular, long time character of the series is brutally killed, forcing Rick to submit to the Saviour's protection racket.
Carl hates this, so steals a rifle and sneaks into the Saviour's base "The Sanctuary" and attempts to assassinate Negan. He fails but he does kill several of Negans men. Negan is impressed with Carl, gives him a guided tour of the place and expresses an interest in taking on Carl as a sort of protege (until Carl pisses Negan off, at which point carl becomes a "Skull faced little fether!").
Carl hates Negan, but he does begin to emulate him somewhat.
Its kind of interesting how the plot of the tv show moves much slower than in the comic, but the characters (well at least the actors) age much faster in the show. I mean Carl is still basically a little kid in the comics, but hes an adolescent already in the show.
Spoiler:
If Carl ever meets Neegan, Neegan will not spare him because he is a tough little kid. At this rate, Carl will be in his late teens when that happens. Carl will of course be a better shot, you know stereo vision and all.
pretre wrote: @Shadow Cap: I think you might be skipping a bit of stuff on what the next 'big bad' is.
Spoiler:
Not at all. I've read the comics and 'm fully aware of The Hunters, but they are a relatively minor threat in comparison to the Woodbury Army and the Saviours. They kill just one of Rick's group then get massacred by Rick and co. pretty easily. They're not really the next "Big Bad" are they?
Though I'm sure the TV show will make them into a much bigger threat drawn out over several episodes. I think we can expect several episodes of people being chased by a gang of cannibal hunters.
pretre wrote: @Shadow Cap: I think you might be skipping a bit of stuff on what the next 'big bad' is.
Spoiler:
Not at all. I've read the comics and 'm fully aware of The Hunters, but they are a relatively minor threat in comparison to the Woodbury Army and the Saviours. They kill just one of Rick's group then get massacred by Rick and co. They're not really the next "Big Bad" are they?
Spoiler:
The Negan thing is still light years away at this point. They have only just run into Abraham.
Andrew1975 wrote: Its kind of interesting how the plot of the tv show moves much slower than in the comic, but the characters (well at least the actors) age much faster in the show. I mean Carl is still basically a little kid in the comics, but hes an adolescent already in the show.
Spoiler:
If Carl ever meets Neegan, Neegan will not spare him because he is a tough little kid. At this rate, Carl will be in his late teens when that happens. Carl will of course be a better shot, you know stereo vision and all.
Spoiler:
Actually, Carl is shot and loses an eye after they reach Washington, and shortly before they encounter they enceounter Negan for the first time. If the show still more or less follows the Comics' storyline, then it may still happen.
And IIRC, Negan didn't spare Carl because he was a kid, but because he was impressed by Carl's sheer audacity.
Walking Dead wiki wrote:Carl bitterly hates Negan, and this is provoked by him killing Glenn, and reaches a point where Carl risks his life to get revenge, when he sneaks into Negan's truck in order to kill him.[2] It appears though, that Negan likes and admires Carl because of how hardened he is. It is shown that he may even have some higher opinion of the child, such as respect, as he is shown to be sincerely concerned and apologetic after making fun of his exposed gunshot injury. Carl returns Negan's admiration for him by accompanying him throughout the Savior's base without even trying to run or take action, also questioning the leader out of his wives, which one was actually his. Negan may very well be catering Carl to become a protege of some sort, as he is shown to be more impressed by the boy rather than angered by his violence against his men. However, since Carl shot Lucille, Negan now wants to kill him, even menacing The Alexandria's citizens to kill Rick, Nicholas, Holly, and Heath in front of them if Carl weren't sent to him.
The Negan thing is still light years away at this point. They have only just run into Abraham.
I think Rick will probably reach W. by the finale, and if N. isn't introduced in the finale then it will be early on in Season 5. There are 6 more episodes till the finale - hardly light years away.
Unless of course the show runners invent a lot of material again to drag out the storylines, which is very possible but can't really be predicted. Based on the comics, the storyline of the last 3 episodes of the show does seem to be speeding up again.
Andrew1975 wrote: Its kind of interesting how the plot of the tv show moves much slower than in the comic, but the characters (well at least the actors) age much faster in the show. I mean Carl is still basically a little kid in the comics, but hes an adolescent already in the show.
Spoiler:
If Carl ever meets Neegan, Neegan will not spare him because he is a tough little kid. At this rate, Carl will be in his late teens when that happens. Carl will of course be a better shot, you know stereo vision and all.
Spoiler:
Actually, Carl is shot and loses an eye after they reach Washington, and shortly before they encounter they enceounter Negan for the first time. If the show still more or less follows the Comics' storyline, then it may still happen.
And IIRC, Negan didn't spare Carl because he was a kid, but because he was impressed by Carl's sheer audacity.
Walking Dead wiki wrote:Carl bitterly hates Negan, and this is provoked by him killing Glenn, and reaches a point where Carl risks his life to get revenge, when he sneaks into Negan's truck in order to kill him.[2] It appears though, that Negan likes and admires Carl because of how hardened he is. It is shown that he may even have some higher opinion of the child, such as respect, as he is shown to be sincerely concerned and apologetic after making fun of his exposed gunshot injury. Carl returns Negan's admiration for him by accompanying him throughout the Savior's base without even trying to run or take action, also questioning the leader out of his wives, which one was actually his. Negan may very well be catering Carl to become a protege of some sort, as he is shown to be more impressed by the boy rather than angered by his violence against his men. However, since Carl shot Lucille, Negan now wants to kill him, even menacing The Alexandria's citizens to kill Rick, Nicholas, Holly, and Heath in front of them if Carl weren't sent to him.
Spoiler:
I think he spares him because he is a tough audacious kid. There is no way Negan spares anyone else that disrespects him and kills his men that way. Negan is a complete homicidal psychopath, but he has that weird soft spot that psychopaths seam to have for children sometimes. We have seen him gut people for much less.
As for where the story is going.......Terminous is throwing me for a loop, unless that is the new name for Alexandria.
Well I disagree. The guy is a straightforward lunatic IMO. I wouldn't put too much stock in his imagined redeeming features as he contradicts himself time and time again.
You say he has a soft spot for kids, yet he goes ballistic when Carl shoots his bat "Lucille" and threatens to kill him. He even goes so far as to hold Rick and a couple of others hostage, threatening to kill them unless Carl is handed over. IIRC the situation is defused when Jesus makes a suprise attack and Rick is able to escape.
Also, when Negan captured Holly and saved her from being raped by his men, he claims to despise sexual violence. Then shortly later, Holly is dead and sent into Rick's camp where walker-Holly bites and kills Denise. Clearly what rudimentary sense of chivalry he has regarding the raping of women, doesn't extend to violence against women.
I think his temporary fondness for Carl was simply Negan being impressed by Carl's ability for violence and he considers Carl as a potential follower. Then he changes his mind because Carl shot his baseball bat.
His soft spot for his barbed wire wrapped bat is bigger than any soft spot he has for tough little kids.
I wouldnt be basing too much of what will happen on the comics any more... I think they want this series to keep on going, and they will add lots more... it has taken a LOT longer to get through each phase in the show, and they keep adding in stuff to make it longer.
Spoiler:
they have changed a LOT from the comics... heck andrea is DEAD now, in the comic she lasts till the end (so far)... and has some really REALLY important roles well after the prison...
I mean, by now rick should have a stump for a hand,
abraham and all them should still have to deal with the cannibals, running around with no home for a few weeks, fiunding the other people, we already saw one group find what appears to be another group of survivors,
also they split into more groups in the shows, so there could be some real divergence here
Automatically Appended Next Post: loving the actors that play abraham and his gang though, SPOT ON!!!
While clearly there are significant differences in terms of characters and certain details, the overall plot does generally follow the one in the comics. They're encountering many of the same people and places.
Kirkman is in all those writers' meetings. While I'm sure he's having fun changing the formula and creating a kind of "what if" alternate reality from the comics, it's still his baby. He wrote the story he wrote because he liked the story, so I tend to think he's going to push for them to follow it in a general way.
gorgon wrote: While clearly there are significant differences in terms of characters and certain details, the overall plot does generally follow the one in the comics. They're encountering many of the same people and places.
Kirkman is in all those writers' meetings. While I'm sure he's having fun changing the formula and creating a kind of "what if" alternate reality from the comics, it's still his baby. He wrote the story he wrote because he liked the story, so I tend to think he's going to push for them to follow it in a general way.
Maybe,but I don't know. Like I said Terminus is really throwing me off, unless I am forgetting something. This could be a major departure from the comic, which would be fine. To be honest the comic has been going in circles for a while. Gov, Gov act 2, Negan, Negan act 2, Negan act3.
The sign that Tyreese and Carol find refers to a "Community for all, Sanctuary for all". In the comics, The Saviours operate out of a place called "The Sanctuary".
Its probably just a coincidence, but if not, it may be a vague reference to the comics and foreshadowing future episodes. Tyreese, Carol and Judith are already dead at this point in the comics, so future material for them will be original.
Maybe they encounter Negan and The Saviours, and are taken in by them, giving the show a POV group within the Saviours (as Andrea gave a POV within Woodbury). We know there are at least a few women and other non combatents within the Saviours (typically family and girlfriends of the men serving Negan). Maybe Tyreese offers to work for Negan in exchange for sanctuary.
Then when Rick finally encounters the Saviours, he's faced with the bombshell that Judith is alive, and the Saviours have her.
I think they are close enough to their comic book counterparts so they are instantly recognizable:
I was excited to finally see them on the show.
But this is my point. There are some things that look okay even cool in a comic book panel that look absolutely absurd when you see them in real life. A good film/TV show understands this and makes the small changes necessary to keep the flavor of the original character intact while still making them not look absolutely ludicrous.
I thought that overall this was a very strong episode, but then that final shot took me completely out of the story and just made me laugh at how ridiculous those new characters look...they're more like caricatures than characters. It's a really distressing sign to me when they're willing to give up immersion and a sense of 'realism' (within the realm of the ridiculous that the show does operate in) in order to pay homage to the source material.
If this ends up being the start of a trend, then this may be the point where TWD as a TV show jumps the shark. With the revolving cast of showrunners on the TWD, it may be a case now where the guy in charge is now deferring *too much* to Kirkman's input. Without having read the comics I can't say for sure, but I'm guessing that up to this point significant changes have been made in many cases to keep the TV story a little more believable when you see it onscreen, because just matter of fact there are things you can get away with in a comic that don't seem unrealistic that seem idiotic when you see them realized in live action.
I think they are close enough to their comic book counterparts so they are instantly recognizable:
I was excited to finally see them on the show.
But this is my point. There are some things that look okay even cool in a comic book panel that look absolutely absurd when you see them in real life. A good film/TV show understands this and makes the small changes necessary to keep the flavor of the original character intact while still making them not look absolutely ludicrous.
I thought that overall this was a very strong episode, but then that final shot took me completely out of the story and just made me laugh at how ridiculous those new characters look...they're more like caricatures than characters. It's a really distressing sign to me when they're willing to give up immersion and a sense of 'realism' (within the realm of the ridiculous that the show does operate in) in order to pay homage to the source material.
If this ends up being the start of a trend, then this may be the point where TWD as a TV show jumps the shark. With the revolving cast of showrunners on the TWD, it may be a case now where the guy in charge is now deferring *too much* to Kirkman's input. Without having read the comics I can't say for sure, but I'm guessing that up to this point significant changes have been made in many cases to keep the TV story a little more believable when you see it onscreen, because just matter of fact there are things you can get away with in a comic that don't seem unrealistic that seem idiotic when you see them realized in live action.
So I just hope this isn't the start of a trend!
I think they are doing a good job walking the fine line between being like the comic and standing on its own. Lots and lots (and lots) of fans of the show also read the comics, so they would rightfully miffed if popular and important characters finally show up, yet look nothing like their comic book counterparts. I want the show to stay close to the source material. I don't think it is absurd that these characters resemble how they appear in the comic.
, thats what they do before they cut it and use it for contruction. I think the wood they used was made from plotainium/plotonium, they are as strong as the Plot needs them to be.
