It sure looks like a mix of Chaos and Orks, or at least it's where my mind wants to go ...
Automatically Appended Next Post: And this one?!?!
One is Gork, the other Mork. The same pics featured in our codex last edition. I can't tell you which is which for sure but I think the red one is Gork, the blue Mork.
But also, won't Grukk look pretty small & puny next to the new warboss model (on the trike)? The new warboss looks significantly beefier to me so if you have an army that would utilize both the Grukk warboss is going to look like a little brother worshipping and wanting to be the same as his big bro..
It sure looks like a mix of Chaos and Orks, or at least it's where my mind wants to go ...
Automatically Appended Next Post: And this one?!?!
One is Gork, the other Mork. The same pics featured in our codex last edition. I can't tell you which is which for sure but I think the red one is Gork, the blue Mork.
Ah, I did not buy the previous ed codex so I was unaware of those two images ...
In any case, by looking at the Instagram feed of Warhammer over the past few weeks/months, I do not see as much emphasis put on any other codex release ... I'm still hopeful we'll see something we haven't heard of!
I'm going to go out on a limb and say I really hope they don't discontinue the warboss with big Choppa or the warboss with attack squig and kombi skorcha, since they're both timeless and awesome.
as been stated before you can tell which buggy follows wich clan (though i dont think they will be set up with clan keywords, it looks like a style choice)
snazzwagon (deathskulls, molotovs are perfect for killing the crew of a vehicle without damaging da loot)
boosta blasta (evilsunz, the ignited exhaust is best for going fasta)
wartrike (goth, of course the goths have da biggest and choppiest on their trike)
shockjump dragsta (badmoons, with all the high tech equipment that only a posh badmoon can afford)
scrapjet (bloodaxe, with bomber jacket and and foregoing a flashy paint job makes this git seem like he used to be a stormboy before he became a flyboy before he became the new buggy boy)
squigbuggy (snakebites)
not only does the new buggy have a brown paint job that matches snakebites but it also has the largest variety of squigs (one of the best pets/export of any snakbite clan).
now i would've preferred a less advanced vehicle for snakebites, but its not like our favorite feral orks shun technology completely. they are known for making steam powered stompas. also, this thing looks more "salvaged: then the other buggies to me. it looks like they took some other boyz buggy and made it their own. also, that front spiked gob and that behind the wheel buzzsaw look like they were torn off kilakanz for this machine, heck, even the t shirt squig cannons look like the same tech for grotzookas (the fluff i have for this is they salvaged a buggy and a killakan and made a somewhat functional vehicle and stuffed it with both boys and squigs).
i also love the very fact that it has all da squigs. any motorcade would want this in their speedwaaagh because its "meels on wheeels". i can see as the whole mob is speeding along and da boss yells over his mega speekah "SQUIG ME!" and in response the squigbuggy gunner loads up a rather juicy squig and launches it into the motorcade, a skorcha buggy nearby roasts it midflight, the boss snatches it out of the air. and the he feasts on roasted meaty goodness.
It sure looks like a mix of Chaos and Orks, or at least it's where my mind wants to go ...
Automatically Appended Next Post: And this one?!?!
One is Gork, the other Mork. The same pics featured in our codex last edition. I can't tell you which is which for sure but I think the red one is Gork, the blue Mork.
It is likely we will see plastic characters in the future, though not for this release. Seems almost a given that some day we will receive Weirdboy in plastic, MA Warboss (maybe with options to make Ghazy and Nazdreg alike included). Plastic warboss (non MA) with different weapon options (maybe) but don't expect this any time soon (or any of these for that matter) especially as there is Grukk already there.
Plastic biker boss kit, maybe with options to have a painboy or mek or warboss, may as well make it all one kit and save themselves the effort of making 3.
Looking back a few pages we are also waiting on plastic Kommandos, Tankbusters, Big Gunz (the older ones). Note we are getting non of these in this release.
Also plastic Nob bikers and Boar Boyz and Nobz on boars.
Just noticed that the Kommandos are Sold out Online, on both the Dutch and UK sites: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Ork-Kommandos . Still available in the US, it seems. A sign of things to come, or a repack with new bases? If new bases, why not also the rest of the Ork range?
Seems especially odd with Kommandos being a thing in Kill Team too.
Insane Ivan wrote: Just noticed that the Kommandos are Sold out Online, on both the Dutch and UK sites: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Ork-Kommandos . Still available in the US, it seems. A sign of things to come, or a repack with new bases? If new bases, why not also the rest of the Ork range?
Seems especially odd with Kommandos being a thing in Kill Team too.
Kommandos were one of the units I was sure they'd get new models for, since it's like the only resin thing in Kill Team (or at least was in "wave 1"). Maybe they're coming, but I'm not getting my hopes up. It's probably just new boxes with 32's in them, and they're just switching those out slowly..
Insane Ivan wrote: Just noticed that the Kommandos are Sold out Online, on both the Dutch and UK sites: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Ork-Kommandos . Still available in the US, it seems. A sign of things to come, or a repack with new bases? If new bases, why not also the rest of the Ork range?
Seems especially odd with Kommandos being a thing in Kill Team too.
Sold out? Generally that means simply stock running out. GW doesn't have huge warehouses(those cost money) so it's quite possible to have model run out(doomsday ark was sold out for ages....seems it's back available so maybe should order one or two quickly) which then takes time before reprint slot comes out if machines are already running at max capacity.
Might thus mean nothing more than GW has sold too many of them too fast.
PiñaColada wrote: Kommandos were one of the units I was sure they'd get new models for, since it's like the only resin thing in Kill Team (or at least was in "wave 1").
Well there's Lictors, Rangers, Storm Guardians and Flayed Ones too, if you don't count the resin commanders. But yeah, a plastic tankbusta/kommando kit would have been nice. But I'm doubtful there will be more kits coming this release, considering the large amount of new kits already. It's that the Mek Shop rumour came from the same source that named all the buggies, so that might still be in the pipeline, otherwise I'd be very doubtful of that as well.
Insane Ivan wrote: Just noticed that the Kommandos are Sold out Online, on both the Dutch and UK sites: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Ork-Kommandos . Still available in the US, it seems. A sign of things to come, or a repack with new bases? If new bases, why not also the rest of the Ork range?
Seems especially odd with Kommandos being a thing in Kill Team too.
Sold out? Generally that means simply stock running out. GW doesn't have huge warehouses(those cost money) so it's quite possible to have model run out(doomsday ark was sold out for ages....seems it's back available so maybe should order one or two quickly) which then takes time before reprint slot comes out if machines are already running at max capacity.
Might thus mean nothing more than GW has sold too many of them too fast.
I thought they had the "Temporarily Unavailable" status for that (e.g., the Kill Team starter box)? Anyway, I'm also not expecting new Kommandos, but the timing did seem odd to me.
PiñaColada wrote: Kommandos were one of the units I was sure they'd get new models for, since it's like the only resin thing in Kill Team (or at least was in "wave 1").
Well there's Lictors, Rangers, Storm Guardians and Flayed Ones too, if you don't count the resin commanders. But yeah, a plastic tankbusta/kommando kit would have been nice. But I'm doubtful there will be more kits coming this release, considering the large amount of new kits already. It's that the Mek Shop rumour came from the same source that named all the buggies, so that might still be in the pipeline, otherwise I'd be very doubtful of that as well.
The Mek Shop might not even involve that much or even any new sprues - it could be some bits from Speed Freakz packaged with some Sector Mechanicus terrain tbh.
lord_blackfang wrote: As much as I love all the new vehicles, I too would have traded some of them for plastic Kommandos/Tankbustas and a few new HQ models.
Seems GW just hates money. Or loves buggy alternatives, who knows.
Got a voucher/card saying I will get da Orkzes for my bday. I hope the Speed Freakz box is in the middle of the pricing range for GW board games, otherwise I'll wish for one of the buggies instead. Can't put that Silver Tower price point on my mom.
PiñaColada wrote: Kommandos were one of the units I was sure they'd get new models for, since it's like the only resin thing in Kill Team (or at least was in "wave 1").
Well there's Lictors, Rangers, Storm Guardians and Flayed Ones too, if you don't count the resin commanders. But yeah, a plastic tankbusta/kommando kit would have been nice. But I'm doubtful there will be more kits coming this release, considering the large amount of new kits already. It's that the Mek Shop rumour came from the same source that named all the buggies, so that might still be in the pipeline, otherwise I'd be very doubtful of that as well.
Huh. That's a good point. So far kill team has been mostly repack and bundles besides the sector imperalis, but kill team would be a good excuse for some of these units to be converted to plastic independent of a codex.
They could but killteam is pegged as a low cost product (well for GW anyway), so while they could introduce new stuff via this route I don't think they will,
I'm pretty sure its going to remain a good way to get added value out of older stuff where they've paid off the initial investment and made the bulk of their 'NEW!' sales already
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: They could but killteam is pegged as a low cost product (well for GW anyway), so while they could introduce new stuff via this route I don't think they will,
I'm pretty sure its going to remain a good way to get added value out of older stuff where they've paid off the initial investment and made the bulk of their 'NEW!' sales already
Yeah, they'd never do anything risky, like two entirely new themed factions with unique models.
We may well yet see more new kits for Kill team. I just hope they aren't all groups of unique characters.
They could also release new units as part of one of those Vigilus campaign box sets. That's what they did in the past with the new plastic Spiritseer and a new Primaris Lieutenant in Wake the Dead, the new Abbarants, Abominant and Battle Leader in Tooth and Claw and the Armiger Warglaives and Cryptek with Canoptek Cloak in Forgebane.
Although you could say Speed Freeks is already Ork's inclusion in the Vigilus storyline.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: They could but killteam is pegged as a low cost product (well for GW anyway), so while they could introduce new stuff via this route I don't think they will,
I'm pretty sure its going to remain a good way to get added value out of older stuff where they've paid off the initial investment and made the bulk of their 'NEW!' sales already
Yeah, they'd never do anything risky, like two entirely new themed factions with unique models.
We may well yet see more new kits for Kill team. I just hope they aren't all groups of unique characters.
a bit OT, but it'd be a heck of a way to sell me on new troop kits. Release new CSM troop kit with new wargear, kill team rules in the box? or a box of sisters of battle? I'd snap those right up.
lord_blackfang wrote: As much as I love all the new vehicles, I too would have traded some of them for plastic Kommandos/Tankbustas and a few new HQ models.
Seems GW just hates money. Or loves buggy alternatives, who knows.
What if the buggy alternatives are kommandos disguised as buggies.
Extra sneaky like, boss.
From a french youtube channel on warhammer, usually they are accurate, but to take with a pinch of salt :
- He will be less than 10 HP, apparently 8 HP - Cost of 120 points
- Weapon profile : S+2, AP -2, 5 Attacks, D3 wounds
Well, that's basically the profile of the killchoppa. Great against vehicles in general, especially with the rumored traits, but not that good against knights.
From a french youtube channel on warhammer, usually they are accurate, but to take with a pinch of salt :
- He will be less than 10 HP, apparently 8 HP - Cost of 120 points
- Weapon profile : S+2, AP -2, 5 Attacks, D3 wounds
Was just gonna post this, there's also the following info;
In french and not the main subject of the video but some leak of ork codex.
https://youtu.be/gP8xf6qjmLk?t=960 16:00 Weirboy upgrade by stratagem (1CP) to Akkro (psyker niv 2)
https://youtu.be/gP8xf6qjmLk?t=1551 25:50 Two of the new vehicle will be OP, Boss on bike will be around 120pts for 8W 5A of power klaw, new stratagem for the boss on bike if he fall back roll dice for dealing mortal wound
https://youtu.be/gP8xf6qjmLk?t=2685 44:45 Teleporta stratagem 2CP at deployment if unit cost under 20 power points it can be place in reserve and arrive at the end of a mouvement phase at 9'' of an enemy unit (Gorka/Morkanaught ?)
https://youtu.be/gP8xf6qjmLk?t=3250 54:10 Confirm of orktober fail => Speed Freak release 27 preco of codex 27 for release in november
https://youtu.be/gP8xf6qjmLk?t=3881 1:04:40 Boyz on 32mn cost 7pts now. Grot shield stratagem for 1CP if grot unit is between target and shooting unit grot can intercept wound like tau drone (on 2+). Evil sun trait +1mvt bonus for advance/charge (+2 for speed freak) no penalty for advance and shooting assault weapon. Bad moon trait reroll 1 for hiting in shooting phase. Goff trait 6+ to hit on cac generate additional attack (like dakka dakka). No new Ghazghkull miniature. Battle wagon 120 base point (without weapon). Nearly all unit will be "playable" except nob, nob biker, meganob (too expensive for what they offer)
Boyz 7 pts, welp let's hope the Buggies and Bikes are competitive!
Jidmah wrote: Well, that's basically the profile of the killchoppa. Great against vehicles in general, especially with the rumored traits, but not that good against knights.
Weirboy upgrade by stratagem (1CP) to Akkro (psyker niv 2) - YES As someone who doesn't want to run more than 1 wierdboy I'm really happy we can upgrade him
Two of the new vehicle will be OP, Boss on bike will be around 120pts for 8W 5A of power klaw, new stratagem for the boss on bike if he fall back roll dice for dealing mortal wound - I'm getting all the new stuff that's getting released, but no mention of what the other "OP" vehicle is? Also, the stats for the warboss sound a bit underwhelming as is, I hope he's base strength 7
Confirm of orktober fail => Speed Freak release 27 preco of codex 27 for release in november - Sigh, oh well. No mention if the other stuff is coming all at the same time as the codex?
Boyz on 32mn cost 7pts now. - Oh boy, wonder if they have the exact same stats as before?
Evil sun trait +1mvt bonus for advance/charge (+2 for speed freak) no penalty for advance and shooting assault weapon. - What does this mean?
Battle wagon 120 base point (without weapon). -YAY!! (No mention of trukks?)
Nearly all unit will be "playable" except nob, nob biker, meganob (too expensive for what they offer) - Shame about the nob bikers, I like the idea of them being an entourage for the warboss on bike (now trike)
@englishman - do they say WHY 2 of the new buggies are OP? I'd be surprised if they're simply good, much less OP.
Warboss on trike is somewhat underwhelming. It's ok, I guess. Think zhardsnark is better.
7 point boyz is a bit of a disappointment - maybe they're trying to get people to bring something besides boyz spam? If that's the case, they'd better give us other playable options.
Kap'n Krump wrote: 7 point boyz is a bit of a disappointment - maybe they're trying to get people to bring something besides boyz spam? If that's the case, they'd better give us other playable options.
Agreed. I'll never understand GW's attitude toward orks. Why chose to nerf our one good unit?
@englishman - do they say WHY 2 of the new buggies are OP? I'd be surprised if they're simply good, much less OP.
Warboss on trike is somewhat underwhelming. It's ok, I guess. Think zhardsnark is better.
7 point boyz is a bit of a disappointment - maybe they're trying to get people to bring something besides boyz spam? If that's the case, they'd better give us other playable options.
I don't know man, being a proud Englishman I won't bear to hear or speak the French language if I can help it
This is a summary from a dude in an Ork group on facebook. Perhaps a French speaker will help us less cultured/educated types?
Kap'n Krump wrote: 7 point boyz is a bit of a disappointment - maybe they're trying to get people to bring something besides boyz spam? If that's the case, they'd better give us other playable options.
Agreed. I'll never understand GW's attitude toward orks. Why chose to nerf our one good unit?
Sold enough boyz with index so time for periodic balance change to sell other models
@englishman - do they say WHY 2 of the new buggies are OP? I'd be surprised if they're simply good, much less OP.
Warboss on trike is somewhat underwhelming. It's ok, I guess. Think zhardsnark is better.
7 point boyz is a bit of a disappointment - maybe they're trying to get people to bring something besides boyz spam? If that's the case, they'd better give us other playable options.
I don't know man, being a proud Englishman I won't bear to hear or speak the French language if I can help it
This is a summary from a dude in an Ork group on facebook. Perhaps a French speaker will help us less cultured/educated types?
OI! ANY O' YOU GITZ SPEAK PANZEE????
(JK - I know there's some french-speaking folks around here, anyone care to share?)
Kap'n Krump wrote: 7 point boyz is a bit of a disappointment - maybe they're trying to get people to bring something besides boyz spam? If that's the case, they'd better give us other playable options.
Agreed. I'll never understand GW's attitude toward orks. Why chose to nerf our one good unit?
Perhaps... and bear with me here... Boyz are now even better thanks to having access to new armywide special rules, stratagems, cheaper transports, etc?
Kap'n Krump wrote: 7 point boyz is a bit of a disappointment - maybe they're trying to get people to bring something besides boyz spam? If that's the case, they'd better give us other playable options.
Agreed. I'll never understand GW's attitude toward orks. Why chose to nerf our one good unit?
They're our one good unit now, but maybe in the context of the full codex they were too good so they had to have their points increased a little, while everything else got better and/or had their points dropped? We might not have just one good unit anymore once the codex is released.
Kap'n Krump wrote: 7 point boyz is a bit of a disappointment - maybe they're trying to get people to bring something besides boyz spam? If that's the case, they'd better give us other playable options.
Agreed. I'll never understand GW's attitude toward orks. Why chose to nerf our one good unit?
Perhaps... and bear with me here... Boyz are now even better thanks to having access to new armywide special rules, stratagems, cheaper transports, etc?
Things that all other codexes' troops paid for when they had access to the same thing.......o wait. They didn't.
They are quite literally the only troop in my knowledge to increase in price from index to codex, if the rumour is true.
Kap'n Krump wrote: 7 point boyz is a bit of a disappointment - maybe they're trying to get people to bring something besides boyz spam? If that's the case, they'd better give us other playable options.
Agreed. I'll never understand GW's attitude toward orks. Why chose to nerf our one good unit?
Perhaps... and bear with me here... Boyz are now even better thanks to having access to new armywide special rules, stratagems, cheaper transports, etc?
Gw considers those free. Orks might be only one where core unit got price hike. At sub-average unit at that.
Basic daemons went up when CSM dropped, didn't they?
Also, the Ork index was hot squig gak, and poorly balanced. Just because boyz were the only good thing they had then, doesn't mean they are now. We just got confirmation that we're getting a 120point winged Daemon Prince that's only missing the fly and pysker keywords after all.
Kap'n Krump wrote: 7 point boyz is a bit of a disappointment - maybe they're trying to get people to bring something besides boyz spam? If that's the case, they'd better give us other playable options.
Agreed. I'll never understand GW's attitude toward orks. Why chose to nerf our one good unit?
It's not really a nerf though.I'd call it a step to the side. They are getting Dakka dakka dakka, it's hard to justify a regular boy at 6ppm when they have mob rule, ear we go and DDD and THEN they get a clan trait. Especially when you look at the profile they have. The big issue orks had wasn't so much the infantry it was the prices of the other units. Sounds like everything else is getting the needed boosts. I still think the biggest issue against Ork viability from competition is going to be logistical. With 32mm bases and that giant oval the buggies are coming with, it is going to be desperate times figuring out where/how to deploy all your models and not have them get into eachothers way. If an army with flyers, particularly the eldar variety, go first they can hem your whole line in with their base. I really hope there are a lot of fun ways to move these guys around.
Red Corsair wrote: It's not really a nerf though.I'd call it a step to the side. They are getting Dakka dakka dakka, it's hard to justify a regular boy at 6ppm when they have mob rule, ear we go and DDD and THEN they get a clan trait. Especially when you look at the profile they have. The big issue orks had wasn't so much the infantry it was the prices of the other units. Sounds like everything else is getting the needed boosts. I still think the biggest issue against Ork viability from competition is going to be logistical. With 32mm bases and that giant oval the buggies are coming with, it is going to be desperate times figuring out where/how to deploy all your models and not have them get into eachothers way. If an army with flyers, particularly the eldar variety, go first they can hem your whole line in with their base. I really hope there are a lot of fun ways to move these guys around.
They went up a point and are on 32mm bases. A CQC focused unit. DDD makes them able to hit things that we literally had to just stare at before. It allows us to play the game. It's hardly a buff, particularly to a unit that isn't exactly known for its damage at range.
It's a massive, undeniable nerf.
Let's hope they have 5+ armour or something to balance things out...
Reads as if each of the six new vehicles will be tied to a particular clan
It does indeed but we've already seen a picture of the Boomdakka Snazzwagon and Boss on Trike painted in Evil Sunz colours so I very much doubt it'll be mandatory clan choices.
Reads as if each of the six new vehicles will be tied to a particular clan
I will freek (snickers) the F out if I can't use one of each buggy with my evil sunz. Especially the warlord on trike. I just want an entire list made up of (filled) transports and other vehicles, don't make me run too many dupliates GW please
Red Corsair wrote: It's not really a nerf though.I'd call it a step to the side. They are getting Dakka dakka dakka, it's hard to justify a regular boy at 6ppm when they have mob rule, ear we go and DDD and THEN they get a clan trait. Especially when you look at the profile they have. The big issue orks had wasn't so much the infantry it was the prices of the other units. Sounds like everything else is getting the needed boosts. I still think the biggest issue against Ork viability from competition is going to be logistical. With 32mm bases and that giant oval the buggies are coming with, it is going to be desperate times figuring out where/how to deploy all your models and not have them get into eachothers way. If an army with flyers, particularly the eldar variety, go first they can hem your whole line in with their base. I really hope there are a lot of fun ways to move these guys around.
They went up a point and are on 32mm bases. A CQC focused unit. DDD makes them able to hit things that we literally had to just stare at before. It allows us to play the game. It's hardly a buff, particularly to a unit that isn't exactly known for its damage at range.
It's a massive, undeniable nerf.
Let's hope they have 5+ armour or something to balance things out...
It's certainly deniable. You gained a solid army wide rule that isn't related to free traits in DDD. That is the only undeniable fact. You were just hoping it was free, apparently it isn't.
In my dreams, the speedwaagh is the hard counter to soup lists. Jump over, burn through, or just shoot screens. Those drills on the Scrapjet aren't for infantry, they're for making holes in Knights.
Red Corsair wrote: It's not really a nerf though.I'd call it a step to the side. They are getting Dakka dakka dakka, it's hard to justify a regular boy at 6ppm when they have mob rule, ear we go and DDD and THEN they get a clan trait. Especially when you look at the profile they have. The big issue orks had wasn't so much the infantry it was the prices of the other units. Sounds like everything else is getting the needed boosts. I still think the biggest issue against Ork viability from competition is going to be logistical. With 32mm bases and that giant oval the buggies are coming with, it is going to be desperate times figuring out where/how to deploy all your models and not have them get into eachothers way. If an army with flyers, particularly the eldar variety, go first they can hem your whole line in with their base. I really hope there are a lot of fun ways to move these guys around.
They went up a point and are on 32mm bases. A CQC focused unit. DDD makes them able to hit things that we literally had to just stare at before. It allows us to play the game. It's hardly a buff, particularly to a unit that isn't exactly known for its damage at range.
It's a massive, undeniable nerf.
Let's hope they have 5+ armour or something to balance things out...
It's certainly deniable. You gained a solid army wide rule that isn't related to free traits in DDD. That is the only undeniable fact. You were just hoping it was free, apparently it isn't.
No other factions models went up in price, because of the addition of sub-faction rules+traits and junk.
DDD is a joke of a rule; it sounds fun, but it’s 2/5 extra hits per 100 shots (depending if BS6/5). Pre-wounding/armor saves btw, so you might get ONE or TWO extra kills; per 100! shots. No ork unit has that much firepower to begin with (Shoota Boyz get halfway...), so...
For 210 points of boys, you get an additional 1-2 hits, at the cost of 30 extra points for the squad; and this is with no other combat related changes. That’s if you took SHOOTAS instead of CHOPPAS; which itself is a massive reduction of the units role - I love me shoots Boyz, but let’s not pretend that 1-2 hits makes them that amazing they deserved a nerf.
DDD is a rule for 8th edition, not for Orks. DDD is passable on Grots (and other 4+ to Grots, but since it doesn’t get effected by +1 modifiers, it really doesn’t do much either way). No unit should ever have been unable to be hit; hits should always land on 6’s, and miss on 1’s.
Don’t kid yourself into thinking DDD actually does anything useful.
Edit: On topic, looking forward to the codex; I love the new model designs. Waiting until November was a mistake, since Artifact+Keyforge release at the end of that month as well, and will eat into Ork player budgets if they’re into card games at all. Hope the Ork codex is balanced all around; and not just a few good units with the rest being trash - I want a balanced army, not an opfotm army.
rollawaythestone wrote: It's possible Chapter Approved roles around and raises the cost of all trash-mob units to limit hordes on the tabletop?
I was just going to post this. I have been suspecting GW is going to increase most of the basic infantry in the game by 1-2 points.
BTW you guys need to consider table top performance. A basic shoota boy from the Evil Suns will now have mob rule, DDD, Ear we go, +1 to advance and +1 to charges and ignore the penalty on every gun the unit can take. That effectively gives them a 27" threat range and they will average 20 s4 hits per 30 man mob. If they were 6ppm that would be way too much IMHO. Oh and that mob can still assault if a boss is nearby (why wouldn't he be) for another 40 s4 hits. The fact that they are T4 is a big deal.
Evil suns is stupidly good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Who said your going up for faction traits? Your ignoring what I wrote pretty blatantly. You GAINED DDD, DDD as far as I am aware is not a trait. So your not going up in cost for nothing.
If Shoota Boyz are advancing, they’re not getting 20 hits; closer to 10. And that’s pre-wounding/armor saves, so...
Then they also lose out on a lot more attacks/potential damage from the choppas - if you’re planning to assault at alll, Shoota are not worth the damage loss when you get there.
zend wrote: Basic daemons went up when CSM dropped, didn't they?
Also, the Ork index was hot squig gak, and poorly balanced. Just because boyz were the only good thing they had then, doesn't mean they are now. We just got confirmation that we're getting a 120point winged Daemon Prince that's only missing the fly and pysker keywords after all.
So below average unit gets other units that might be good is worth double nerf right? You know where that leads? Nobody takes ork boyz that weren't competive even before double nerf and takes good unit. Hmm...Almost as if GW was trying to get people buy something other than what they have sold before! And what's better to that than nerf the unit that sold to death while boosting others.
DDD is definitely useful. When your shooting 3 rockets out of a boy unit your basically 50% chance to get another free shot. What planet are you from that this is bad?
Kap'n Krump wrote: 7 point boyz is a bit of a disappointment - maybe they're trying to get people to bring something besides boyz spam? If that's the case, they'd better give us other playable options.
Agreed. I'll never understand GW's attitude toward orks. Why chose to nerf our one good unit?
It's not really a nerf though.I'd call it a step to the side. They are getting Dakka dakka dakka, it's hard to justify a regular boy at 6ppm when they have mob rule, ear we go and DDD and THEN they get a clan trait. Especially when you look at the profile they have. The big issue orks had wasn't so much the infantry it was the prices of the other units. Sounds like everything else is getting the needed boosts. I still think the biggest issue against Ork viability from competition is going to be logistical. With 32mm bases and that giant oval the buggies are coming with, it is going to be desperate times figuring out where/how to deploy all your models and not have them get into eachothers way. If an army with flyers, particularly the eldar variety, go first they can hem your whole line in with their base. I really hope there are a lot of fun ways to move these guys around.
Eeeh so that's why IG troops got price hike when they got improved in codex! Or space marines! Or dark eldars! Or tau! Or...Wait none of them did.
None of those GW actually considers costing. Clan traits etc are free for GW. And ork boyz were bad in competive listts to begin with.
Red Corsair wrote: DDD is definitely useful. When your shooting 3 rockets out of a boy unit your basically 50% chance to get another free shot. What planet are you from that this is bad?
50% for a 33% chance to hit, followed by wounding/armor.
I’d rather take 30+36 (3 rokkit) cost in units that I can expect to do more damage than a single rokkit reliably. Also, you lose melee combat potential on those rokkit a; but I guess they have extra ablative wounds in the form of a large squad, so...
Red Corsair wrote: It's not really a nerf though.I'd call it a step to the side. They are getting Dakka dakka dakka, it's hard to justify a regular boy at 6ppm when they have mob rule, ear we go and DDD and THEN they get a clan trait. Especially when you look at the profile they have. The big issue orks had wasn't so much the infantry it was the prices of the other units. Sounds like everything else is getting the needed boosts. I still think the biggest issue against Ork viability from competition is going to be logistical. With 32mm bases and that giant oval the buggies are coming with, it is going to be desperate times figuring out where/how to deploy all your models and not have them get into eachothers way. If an army with flyers, particularly the eldar variety, go first they can hem your whole line in with their base. I really hope there are a lot of fun ways to move these guys around.
They went up a point and are on 32mm bases. A CQC focused unit. DDD makes them able to hit things that we literally had to just stare at before. It allows us to play the game. It's hardly a buff, particularly to a unit that isn't exactly known for its damage at range.
It's a massive, undeniable nerf.
Let's hope they have 5+ armour or something to balance things out...
It's certainly deniable. You gained a solid army wide rule that isn't related to free traits in DDD. That is the only undeniable fact. You were just hoping it was free, apparently it isn't.
DDD is not worth a point on a unit that specialises in cqc and has a pistol. It's literally worthless in fact. If you can shoot your targets with a pistol you're within 12" and the neg to hit modifiers don't apply.
Please, do tell me how the massive nerf of both a pt increase and the 32mm base size isn't actually a nerf though.
I won't be all that bothered if Orks going to 7ppm alongside guardsme and other types going up 1 point as well. As long as there are other competitive options presented to us and we are freed from boy spam it will be a net gain for Orks.
Edit: Yeah count me in the DDD being weak and not worth boat. I would never pay a ppm for it anything that's not a pure shooting unit.
Red Corsair wrote: It's not really a nerf though.I'd call it a step to the side. They are getting Dakka dakka dakka, it's hard to justify a regular boy at 6ppm when they have mob rule, ear we go and DDD and THEN they get a clan trait. Especially when you look at the profile they have. The big issue orks had wasn't so much the infantry it was the prices of the other units. Sounds like everything else is getting the needed boosts. I still think the biggest issue against Ork viability from competition is going to be logistical. With 32mm bases and that giant oval the buggies are coming with, it is going to be desperate times figuring out where/how to deploy all your models and not have them get into eachothers way. If an army with flyers, particularly the eldar variety, go first they can hem your whole line in with their base. I really hope there are a lot of fun ways to move these guys around.
They went up a point and are on 32mm bases. A CQC focused unit. DDD makes them able to hit things that we literally had to just stare at before. It allows us to play the game. It's hardly a buff, particularly to a unit that isn't exactly known for its damage at range.
It's a massive, undeniable nerf.
Let's hope they have 5+ armour or something to balance things out...
It's certainly deniable. You gained a solid army wide rule that isn't related to free traits in DDD. That is the only undeniable fact. You were just hoping it was free, apparently it isn't.
DDD is not worth a point on a unit that specialises in cqc and has a pistol. It's literally worthless in fact. If you can shoot your targets with a pistol you're within 12" and the neg to hit modifiers don't apply.
Please, do tell me how the massive nerf of both a pt increase and the 32mm base size isn't actually a nerf though.
Let’s be real with ourselves; Boyz are 7ppm because they were the most popular ork units at tournaments, and because it forces players to buy newer/other models.
Kap'n Krump wrote: 7 point boyz is a bit of a disappointment - maybe they're trying to get people to bring something besides boyz spam? If that's the case, they'd better give us other playable options.
Agreed. I'll never understand GW's attitude toward orks. Why chose to nerf our one good unit?
It's not really a nerf though.I'd call it a step to the side. They are getting Dakka dakka dakka, it's hard to justify a regular boy at 6ppm when they have mob rule, ear we go and DDD and THEN they get a clan trait. Especially when you look at the profile they have. The big issue orks had wasn't so much the infantry it was the prices of the other units. Sounds like everything else is getting the needed boosts. I still think the biggest issue against Ork viability from competition is going to be logistical. With 32mm bases and that giant oval the buggies are coming with, it is going to be desperate times figuring out where/how to deploy all your models and not have them get into eachothers way. If an army with flyers, particularly the eldar variety, go first they can hem your whole line in with their base. I really hope there are a lot of fun ways to move these guys around.
Eeeh so that's why IG troops got price hike when they got improved in codex! Or space marines! Or dark eldars! Or tau! Or...Wait none of them did.
None of those GW actually considers costing. Clan traits etc are free for GW. And ork boyz were bad in competive listts to begin with.
I love how the post always gets moved down the street.
Hey guys, GW didn't do this in the past so apparently they are shackled design wise because of that. Oh wait, no they aren't you just have some sort of strange idea they are.
Kap'n Krump wrote: 7 point boyz is a bit of a disappointment - maybe they're trying to get people to bring something besides boyz spam? If that's the case, they'd better give us other playable options.
Agreed. I'll never understand GW's attitude toward orks. Why chose to nerf our one good unit?
It's not really a nerf though.I'd call it a step to the side. They are getting Dakka dakka dakka, it's hard to justify a regular boy at 6ppm when they have mob rule, ear we go and DDD and THEN they get a clan trait. Especially when you look at the profile they have. The big issue orks had wasn't so much the infantry it was the prices of the other units. Sounds like everything else is getting the needed boosts. I still think the biggest issue against Ork viability from competition is going to be logistical. With 32mm bases and that giant oval the buggies are coming with, it is going to be desperate times figuring out where/how to deploy all your models and not have them get into eachothers way. If an army with flyers, particularly the eldar variety, go first they can hem your whole line in with their base. I really hope there are a lot of fun ways to move these guys around.
Eeeh so that's why IG troops got price hike when they got improved in codex! Or space marines! Or dark eldars! Or tau! Or...Wait none of them did.
None of those GW actually considers costing. Clan traits etc are free for GW. And ork boyz were bad in competive listts to begin with.
I love how the post always gets moved down the street.
Hey guys, GW didn't do this in the past so apparently they are shackled design wise because of that. Oh wait, no they aren't you just have some sort of strange idea they are.
Isn’t that the Ork way though?
Who cares what other factions get, you get nothing.
In reality though, you can bet your butt you’ll be seeing “hits on 6’s” as a base game rule in CA, so...
EDIT: On topic; did any other faction get a community post about their base lore, before being released? It feels like “here’s ork lore” because it’s been so long amd everyone’s forgotten what it is anyways. I mean, ork players havent; but Orks haven’t been relevant in 18 years (third edition), sans index tournament performance with green tide.
Red Corsair wrote: It's not really a nerf though.I'd call it a step to the side. They are getting Dakka dakka dakka, it's hard to justify a regular boy at 6ppm when they have mob rule, ear we go and DDD and THEN they get a clan trait. Especially when you look at the profile they have. The big issue orks had wasn't so much the infantry it was the prices of the other units. Sounds like everything else is getting the needed boosts. I still think the biggest issue against Ork viability from competition is going to be logistical. With 32mm bases and that giant oval the buggies are coming with, it is going to be desperate times figuring out where/how to deploy all your models and not have them get into eachothers way. If an army with flyers, particularly the eldar variety, go first they can hem your whole line in with their base. I really hope there are a lot of fun ways to move these guys around.
They went up a point and are on 32mm bases. A CQC focused unit. DDD makes them able to hit things that we literally had to just stare at before. It allows us to play the game. It's hardly a buff, particularly to a unit that isn't exactly known for its damage at range.
It's a massive, undeniable nerf.
Let's hope they have 5+ armour or something to balance things out...
It's certainly deniable. You gained a solid army wide rule that isn't related to free traits in DDD. That is the only undeniable fact. You were just hoping it was free, apparently it isn't.
DDD is not worth a point on a unit that specialises in cqc and has a pistol. It's literally worthless in fact. If you can shoot your targets with a pistol you're within 12" and the neg to hit modifiers don't apply.
Please, do tell me how the massive nerf of both a pt increase and the 32mm base size isn't actually a nerf though.
Ah look, he just ignored my post and reframed my argument. Now that is face palm worthy. I just explained how you got a 3rd USR you didn't have. Not a clan trait, a brand new shinny USR. A point increase isn't a nerf when your getting something for it. Now, you can hate on DDD all you want, but I seem to recall half this thread derailing 30 pages back when Ork players were adamant this should be an ork only rule lol. You want exclusive access to a rule, you gotta pay for it.
Red Corsair wrote: It's not really a nerf though.I'd call it a step to the side. They are getting Dakka dakka dakka, it's hard to justify a regular boy at 6ppm when they have mob rule, ear we go and DDD and THEN they get a clan trait. Especially when you look at the profile they have. The big issue orks had wasn't so much the infantry it was the prices of the other units. Sounds like everything else is getting the needed boosts. I still think the biggest issue against Ork viability from competition is going to be logistical. With 32mm bases and that giant oval the buggies are coming with, it is going to be desperate times figuring out where/how to deploy all your models and not have them get into eachothers way. If an army with flyers, particularly the eldar variety, go first they can hem your whole line in with their base. I really hope there are a lot of fun ways to move these guys around.
They went up a point and are on 32mm bases. A CQC focused unit. DDD makes them able to hit things that we literally had to just stare at before. It allows us to play the game. It's hardly a buff, particularly to a unit that isn't exactly known for its damage at range.
It's a massive, undeniable nerf.
Let's hope they have 5+ armour or something to balance things out...
It's certainly deniable. You gained a solid army wide rule that isn't related to free traits in DDD. That is the only undeniable fact. You were just hoping it was free, apparently it isn't.
DDD is not worth a point on a unit that specialises in cqc and has a pistol. It's literally worthless in fact. If you can shoot your targets with a pistol you're within 12" and the neg to hit modifiers don't apply.
Please, do tell me how the massive nerf of both a pt increase and the 32mm base size isn't actually a nerf though.
Ah look, he just ignored my post and reframed my argument. Now that is face palm worthy. I just explained how you got a 3rd USR you didn't have. Not a clan trait, a brand new shinny USR. A point increase isn't a nerf when your getting something for it. Now, you can hate on DDD all you want, but I seem to recall half this thread derailing 30 pages back when Ork players were adamant this should be an ork only rule lol. You want exclusive access to a rule, you gotta pay for it.
A points increase isn’t a nerf when you’re getting something, as long as what you’re getting is worth the points cost increase.
Is DDD worth 1 point on Boyz? (~17% price increase)
If so, please explain why.
I’d make shootas cost 1 point, but also give DDD; so baseline Boyz don’t have it, but also aren’t punished for a rule that doesn’t benefit them, but then you also have the option of taking the shootist element+rule, but also paying for it. I don’t feel I’m getting a 17% increase in value for my boys with DDD.
Except when your shooting at something that you normally would have 0% chance of hitting your just gained not only 100% increase in your odds to hit, but also a second go around. Context matters mate.
DDD is definitely a buff, a small but welcome one.
32mm bases are a frustrating nerf.
I would suggest waiting until we see the codex to say 1pt per model increase is definitely a nerf. Just based on the (un)reliable information we have a Battlewagon + 20 boyz actually went down in price. Before it was 120 + 161 = 281 vs 140 +120 = 260. In a vacuum that seems like a buff.
DDD should be renamed “More Bullets!”, and be a purchasable upgrade for each squad, at 1 point per model.
It gives me list building choices, and doesn’t weaken me against metas where -2 to hit isn’t the norm. If I’m at -1 to hit, the best part of DDD (always hitting on 6s) does nothing for me.
Geemoney wrote: DDD is definitely a buff, a small but welcome one.
32mm bases are a frustrating nerf.
I would suggest waiting until we see the codex to say 1pt per model increase is definitely a nerf. Just based on the (un)reliable information we have a Battlewagon + 20 boyz actually went down in price. Before it was 120 + 161 = 281 vs 140 +120 = 260. In a vacuum that seems like a buff.
^This
Thank you for being reasonable.
The whole picture is required, now if the picture is painted in garbage I'll be right there on the line with the complaints but it's far too early.
Red Corsair wrote: It's not really a nerf though.I'd call it a step to the side. They are getting Dakka dakka dakka, it's hard to justify a regular boy at 6ppm when they have mob rule, ear we go and DDD and THEN they get a clan trait. Especially when you look at the profile they have. The big issue orks had wasn't so much the infantry it was the prices of the other units. Sounds like everything else is getting the needed boosts. I still think the biggest issue against Ork viability from competition is going to be logistical. With 32mm bases and that giant oval the buggies are coming with, it is going to be desperate times figuring out where/how to deploy all your models and not have them get into eachothers way. If an army with flyers, particularly the eldar variety, go first they can hem your whole line in with their base. I really hope there are a lot of fun ways to move these guys around.
They went up a point and are on 32mm bases. A CQC focused unit. DDD makes them able to hit things that we literally had to just stare at before. It allows us to play the game. It's hardly a buff, particularly to a unit that isn't exactly known for its damage at range.
It's a massive, undeniable nerf.
Let's hope they have 5+ armour or something to balance things out...
It's certainly deniable. You gained a solid army wide rule that isn't related to free traits in DDD. That is the only undeniable fact. You were just hoping it was free, apparently it isn't.
DDD is not worth a point on a unit that specialises in cqc and has a pistol. It's literally worthless in fact. If you can shoot your targets with a pistol you're within 12" and the neg to hit modifiers don't apply.
Please, do tell me how the massive nerf of both a pt increase and the 32mm base size isn't actually a nerf though.
Ah look, he just ignored my post and reframed my argument. Now that is face palm worthy. I just explained how you got a 3rd USR you didn't have. Not a clan trait, a brand new shinny USR. A point increase isn't a nerf when your getting something for it. Now, you can hate on DDD all you want, but I seem to recall half this thread derailing 30 pages back when Ork players were adamant this should be an ork only rule lol. You want exclusive access to a rule, you gotta pay for it.
Please explain how DDD is worth anything on Slugga Boys. You obviously have no idea what they are.
Please explain how DDD is worth anything on shoots boys.
Please explain how this AND the 32mm base is anything but a nerf to Boys. Your 'sidegrade' argument is patently false. Its completely wrong because, unless there's a change to make Boys more survivable than they are now, they are without question worse point for point. This is the definition of a nerf.
If you're just going to troll, which is literally all you seem to do in this thread, just leave.
fe40k wrote: DDD should be renamed “More Bullets!”, and be a purchasable upgrade for each squad, at 1 point per model.
It gives me list building choices, and doesn’t weaken me against metas where -2 to hit isn’t the norm. If I’m at -1 to hit, the best part of DDD (always hitting on 6s) does nothing for me.
I am not disagreeing with you, but this is not just an ork issue. 8th edition really hates on assaulting. I get that assault is very powerful when done right, but I would rather they toned down the impact of assault and made it more accessible then it currently is. Overall 8th is solid, but they for sure can improve on some things.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ an actual englishman, maybe stop making demands and just agree to disagree rather then blatantly breaking the forum rules for the Nth time.
Red Corsair wrote: It's not really a nerf though.I'd call it a step to the side. They are getting Dakka dakka dakka, it's hard to justify a regular boy at 6ppm when they have mob rule, ear we go and DDD and THEN they get a clan trait. Especially when you look at the profile they have. The big issue orks had wasn't so much the infantry it was the prices of the other units. Sounds like everything else is getting the needed boosts. I still think the biggest issue against Ork viability from competition is going to be logistical. With 32mm bases and that giant oval the buggies are coming with, it is going to be desperate times figuring out where/how to deploy all your models and not have them get into eachothers way. If an army with flyers, particularly the eldar variety, go first they can hem your whole line in with their base. I really hope there are a lot of fun ways to move these guys around.
They went up a point and are on 32mm bases. A CQC focused unit. DDD makes them able to hit things that we literally had to just stare at before. It allows us to play the game. It's hardly a buff, particularly to a unit that isn't exactly known for its damage at range.
It's a massive, undeniable nerf.
Let's hope they have 5+ armour or something to balance things out...
It's certainly deniable. You gained a solid army wide rule that isn't related to free traits in DDD. That is the only undeniable fact. You were just hoping it was free, apparently it isn't.
DDD is not worth a point on a unit that specialises in cqc and has a pistol. It's literally worthless in fact. If you can shoot your targets with a pistol you're within 12" and the neg to hit modifiers don't apply.
Please, do tell me how the massive nerf of both a pt increase and the 32mm base size isn't actually a nerf though.
Ah look, he just ignored my post and reframed my argument. Now that is face palm worthy. I just explained how you got a 3rd USR you didn't have. Not a clan trait, a brand new shinny USR. A point increase isn't a nerf when your getting something for it. Now, you can hate on DDD all you want, but I seem to recall half this thread derailing 30 pages back when Ork players were adamant this should be an ork only rule lol. You want exclusive access to a rule, you gotta pay for it.
Please explain how DDD is worth anything on Slugga Boys. You obviously have no idea what they are.
Please explain how DDD is worth anything on shoots boys.
Please explain how this AND the 32mm base is anything but a nerf to Boys. Your 'sidegrade' argument is patently false. Its completely wrong because, unless there's a change to make Boys more survivable they are now, without question, worse point for point. This is the definition of a nerf.
If you're just going to troll, which is literally all you seem to do in this thread, just leave.
His argument is that it’s worth it, because you can go from 0% hit chance, to 17% hit chance, due to -hit modifiers.
That sounds reasonable, but a 0% to 17% is a 17% increase, at best - which means, if you aren’t getting that always hits on 6s benefit with every attack, you’re actually getting less value than what you pay for; read, nerf.
DDD is a 2-5% increase in hits, at a 17% price increase in most scenarios - you can tell me if you think it’s worth it, but I don’t think it is,
If your ONLY targets all the time ARE -2 to hit stackers, then sure, it’s worth it; but... even then, you’re just breaking even.
I’d bet that we’ll be seeing “always hits on 6s” in CA this year - which means we’d be paying entirely for the 2-5% increase it hits, and just that.
hmmmm, I would need to see the overall codex first before I judge the points increase.
If we are in the same state as the index where everything costs more teeth than Split-Grin Bad Moons have then we're screwed.
If everything is now costed fairly and all is great then I don't think anybody will notice. Honestly, I'd be swapping out 30 boyz for a few vehicles anyway... and I can not deny my boyz will be getting more powerful if the Evil Sunz trait is real with DDD.
I’d bet that we’ll be seeing “always hits on 6s” in CA this year - which means we’d be paying entirely for the 2-5% increase it hits, and just that.
But that's pure conjecture. Personally I doubt that will happen. If it does, then you have all the right to bitch about it then, but right now it's all pure speculation.
I’d bet that we’ll be seeing “always hits on 6s” in CA this year - which means we’d be paying entirely for the 2-5% increase it hits, and just that.
But that's pure conjecture. Personally I doubt that will happen. If it does, then you have all the right to bitch about it then, but right now it's all pure speculation.
Everything is pure speculation, until we see the codex.
fe40k wrote: His argument is that it’s worth it, because you can go from 0% hit chance, to 17% hit chance, due to -hit modifiers.
That sounds reasonable, but a 0% to 17% is a 17% increase, at best - which means, if you aren’t getting that always hits on 6s benefit with every attack, you’re actually getting less value than what you pay for; read, nerf.
DDD is a 2-5% increase in hits, at a 17% price increase in most scenarios - you can tell me if you think it’s worth it, but I don’t think it is,
If your ONLY targets all the time ARE -2 to hit stackers, then sure, it’s worth it; but... even then, you’re just breaking even.
I’d bet that we’ll be seeing “always hits on 6s” in CA this year - which means we’d be paying entirely for the 2-5% increase it hits, and just that.
He's conveniently forgetting the massive nerf that is 32mm bases from 28. This represents a 50% reduction in cqc attacks which is where our damage is done....
Why are we all forgetting that Boys have already been nerfed?
Well, we're all also basing these arguments on rumor and speculation. I'd hate to see this thread closed again, so maybe all of you just get a room and leave the public forum, ok?
fe40k wrote: I’m just trying to figure out where 7point Shoota Boyz will be played, I love those guys...
Maybe in a Freeboota list, if the shooting perks are worth it.
But, this is a Strategy post more than anything...
I'll play 'em. Although not in hordes mind you, since I want my boyz in transports. Hopefully they've added some synergy there, I really just want trukkboyz to be a thing again.
Overall, I doubt boyz will have anything that makes them "worth" the extra point so pure horde armies won't necessarily be much better off post codex but if you run a mixed force I'm sure the pros far outweigh the cons.
I also think this is because they know that they're going to price hike several base infantery units in CA so they're upping the price now, instead of having to errata the point cost in like another month
EDIT: Also, is it possible to physically fit 20 boyz on 32's around a battlewagon within 3" if they were using it as a transport and it blows up? I'm not at home so I can't try it and I'm too dumb&lazy to do the math..
I’d bet that we’ll be seeing “always hits on 6s” in CA this year - which means we’d be paying entirely for the 2-5% increase it hits, and just that.
But that's pure conjecture. Personally I doubt that will happen. If it does, then you have all the right to bitch about it then, but right now it's all pure speculation.
Everything is pure speculation, until we see the codex.
Thats not true at all. Making a prediction of what COULD be in CA is pure speculation. Formulating an opinion based on information provided by GW is not. We just disagree a little bit about the impact that info could have, which is fine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
fe40k wrote: I’m just trying to figure out where 7point Shoota Boyz will be played, I love those guys...
Maybe in a Freeboota list, if the shooting perks are worth it.
But, this is a Strategy post more than anything...
Honestly I think shoota boys are the better version. If you go evil suns your moving an average of 9" on foot and still shooting to full effect which gets you a 27" threat range, which is pretty solid.
I’d bet that we’ll be seeing “always hits on 6s” in CA this year - which means we’d be paying entirely for the 2-5% increase it hits, and just that.
But that's pure conjecture. Personally I doubt that will happen. If it does, then you have all the right to bitch about it then, but right now it's all pure speculation.
Everything is pure speculation, until we see the codex.
Thats not true at all. Making a prediction of what COULD be in CA is pure speculation. Formulating an opinion based on information provided by GW is not. We just disagree a little bit about the impact that info could have, which is fine.
Reads as if each of the six new vehicles will be tied to a particular clan
If they are, can I still take them in the same detachment? I want to make a right an' proppa SpeedWAAAGH!, and I can't do that if I have to make 6 different detachments
7 point ork boyz are reasonable. Now we only need for GW to be even more reasonable and make infantry squads, tau firewarriors, kabalites and skitari rangers/vanguards +1ppm.
I would agree 32mm bases are a nerf if it would be enforced. But I can't see many tournaments enforcing it. It would be very unfair because until now they wouldn't force you to rebase things like terminators, space marines, or demon infantry. The change from 25mm to 32mm wasn't a balance change by GW's part, it was just for aesthetical reasons.
Galas wrote: 7 point ork boyz are reasonable. Now we only need for GW to be even more reasonable and make infantry squads, tau firewarriors, kabalites and skitari rangers/vanguards +1ppm.
I would agree 32mm bases are a nerf if it would be enforced. But I can't see many tournaments enforcing it. It would be very unfair because until now they wouldn't force you to rebase things like terminators, space marines, or demon infantry. The change from 25mm to 32mm wasn't a balance change by GW's part, it was just for aesthetical reasons.
I would agree with your basing sentiment if GW hadn't recently put out a 'suggested basing document' for AOS.
If the same thing is released for 40k, all tournaments immediately start enforcing it.
boyz going to 7pts..again? ok if they give them a slight statboost fine but they were hot garbage at 7pts before so what gives?
Even if they just went to a 5+ save i'd be fine with 7pt boyz.
I more prefer my toyz over boyz but theres still that threshold of minimum boyz you should never break.
fe40k wrote: That sounds reasonable, but a 0% to 17% is a 17% increase, at best - which means, if you aren’t getting that always hits on 6s benefit with every attack, you’re actually getting less value than what you pay for; read, nerf.
Correct. And he discounts (completely) the high percentage of the time that a 7 point model actually has 0% to hit, before the rule.
The whole idea that a 7 point model is correctly pointed because it has a rule that allows it to shoot, and get a hit 1/6 of the time, when other, cheaper units get vastly more hits, is just trolling.
A devourer gaunt gets 1 and 1/2 st4 hits per turn, and has rules to boost even that. It's 8 points. Our 7 point model gets half of that output, for 7/8th the price. Anyone who thinks this is fair is just trolling.
No model is worth 7 points that only gets 1 st4 hit every 1-1/2 turns (or frequently every 3rd turn as BS6+), while at the same time dying to paper cuts. All of the rules in the world do not matter if a unit has negligible output.
Galas wrote: 7 point ork boyz are reasonable. Now we only need for GW to be even more reasonable and make infantry squads, tau firewarriors, kabalites and skitari rangers/vanguards +1ppm.
I would agree 32mm bases are a nerf if it would be enforced. But I can't see many tournaments enforcing it. It would be very unfair because until now they wouldn't force you to rebase things like terminators, space marines, or demon infantry. The change from 25mm to 32mm wasn't a balance change by GW's part, it was just for aesthetical reasons.
I would agree with your basing sentiment if GW hadn't recently put out a 'suggested basing document' for AOS.
If the same thing is released for 40k, all tournaments immediately start enforcing it.
Right, so wait for it to happen first. It may not happen AOS isn't the same situation, that game transitioned from squares to round. they tried to get away with keeping the squares at first with horrible rules for engagement. It really is a very different situation.
BTW 32mm is not entirely a nerf. a 30 man mob gains 210mm of board coverage laterally. For me the 32mm base thing is more an issue for clogged deployment then a worry later. More board control IS better tactically. You lose a rank of boyz in assault, but 95% of time your not assaulting with 3 ranks and when you do you don't require 120 attacks to kill the inevitable chaf your hitting. More reason to take shoota boyz.
GW is always harsher on assault units for some reason, look at a DE wych or wrack compared to a warrior. A kroot and a FW. GW is definitely pushing shoota boyz whether intentional or not.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Grukk is monopose PK only footboss with kombi rokkit. So no boss on foot with big choppa or any ranged weapon apart from the aforementioned.
No standard Big Mek with anything outside the SAG,.unless you count the Meganobs kit as making this (think it says on the box).
MA Warboss shouldn't be the same as Meganobz and MA Big Mek IMO.
I use weirdnob shaman for weirdboy but could do with more model options! I can't stand repetition.
Correct me if I am wrong, but how hard it is to just cut the rocket off and replace it with anything else? Or get AoBR kit?
Isn't there two plastic meks who can be made into big mek with ease? Big mek with SAG doesn't seem to be any different to meks if you take the gun away?
As for MA warboss, what's wrong with using Megaboss? The conversion is quick and easy, plus looks quite nice.
As for shaman, Warchanter makes even better weirdboy and could really be a dual game kit. At worst, you just need to greenstuff feet into boots if you care about that and you're done...
It would be interesting if this was a game wide move that will be echoed in upcoming chapter approved to tune units that cost less than 9-10ppm base (I e. Horde units are all getting points increase)
fe40k wrote: That sounds reasonable, but a 0% to 17% is a 17% increase, at best - which means, if you aren’t getting that always hits on 6s benefit with every attack, you’re actually getting less value than what you pay for; read, nerf.
Correct. And he discounts (completely) the high percentage of the time that a 7 point model actually has 0% to hit, before the rule.
The whole idea that a 7 point model is correctly pointed because it has a rule that allows it to shoot, and get a hit 1/6 of the time, when other, cheaper units get vastly more hits, is just trolling.
A devourer gaunt gets 1 and 1/2 st4 hits per turn, and has rules to boost even that. It's 8 points. Our 7 point model gets half of that output, for 7/8th the price. Anyone who thinks this is fair is just trolling.
No model is worth 7 points that only gets 1 st4 hit every 1-1/2 turns (or frequently every 3rd turn as BS6+), while at the same time dying to paper cuts. All of the rules in the world do not matter if a unit has negligible output.
I never discounted anything. The frequency of hit mods are not something I can objectively assume. If your advancing (which if your not your orking wrong) and shooting any flier or any eldar for the most part, stigys 8, raven guard or Alpha legion your at 0%. In my meta that's more then half the field, I am not going to attempt to try and guess everyone elses, but I am pretty sure those things I listed are all fairly popular.
Crap I somehow forgot every Tyranid army as well lol. So yea, not exactly a rare occurrence for my meta at least. If your playing in a soft core area where hit mods are rare then yea, it's kind of a flat perk for sure.
This thread is not for debating power level of units and uprades in depth - if you want to do this, please start a thread in 40K Tactics or 40K General Discussion.
Additionally, do not accuse others of "trolling" a thread, just hit the yellow triangle and a mod will check it out! Otherwise, those accusations just derail the thread themselves.
So with that, let's drop the tangent about the relative power level of boyz, please. If you do want to discuss it further, either take it to PM or start up a thread in one of the sections I listed above (feel free to link to it here if you do).
I know this is coming from some random guy on the dakkadakka.... but I KNOW for a FACT boyz are 7ppm.
DDD is a stupid pointless upgrade that has very very little value. It is a 17% chance to proc, then needs to hit. So its a 5% extra damage BEFORE wounding and saves. Even 100 shots yield an extra 5 wound rolls, likely 2-3 to go through and another 1-2 to get blocked by armor. So 1-2 extra hits per 100 shots.........
zend wrote: Basic daemons went up when CSM dropped, didn't they?
Also, the Ork index was hot squig gak, and poorly balanced. Just because boyz were the only good thing they had then, doesn't mean they are now. We just got confirmation that we're getting a 120point winged Daemon Prince that's only missing the fly and pysker keywords after all.
So below average unit gets other units that might be good is worth double nerf right? You know where that leads? Nobody takes ork boyz that weren't competive even before double nerf and takes good unit. Hmm...Almost as if GW was trying to get people buy something other than what they have sold before! And what's better to that than nerf the unit that sold to death while boosting others.
Are you asking if I'm okay with boyz receiving a Nerf in exchange for playstyles other than greentide potentially becoming viable?
RiTides wrote: the tangent about the relative power level of boyz, please. If you do want to discuss it further, either take it to PM or start up a thread in one of the sections I listed above (feel free to link to it here if you do).
Thanks all!
I don't understand this at all.
The topic is "Ork News and Rumours" and there is a rumour that Ork Boys are going to 7ppm. Surely this is exactly the place to discuss what impact that will have on the game?
the worst part about all this is that I've spent a few years now around people who have never even seen an Ork army never mind a Evil Sunz army like mine... Kinda made me feel special... now everyone is going to do speed freaks. XD I't selfish but it's the truth.
No but seriously, if they end up OP then everyone will just tell me I play them because they're OP even though I've played them in their worst for ages!
zend wrote: Basic daemons went up when CSM dropped, didn't they?
Also, the Ork index was hot squig gak, and poorly balanced. Just because boyz were the only good thing they had then, doesn't mean they are now. We just got confirmation that we're getting a 120point winged Daemon Prince that's only missing the fly and pysker keywords after all.
So below average unit gets other units that might be good is worth double nerf right? You know where that leads? Nobody takes ork boyz that weren't competive even before double nerf and takes good unit. Hmm...Almost as if GW was trying to get people buy something other than what they have sold before! And what's better to that than nerf the unit that sold to death while boosting others.
Are you asking if I'm okay with boyz receiving a Nerf in exchange for playstyles other than greentide potentially becoming viable?
Absolutely.
This really. I'm re-starting my Orkz but I really don't want to get 100+ Boyz just to field something remotely competitive I'd much rather put 3 squads of 12 in Trukks to match the theme of my upcoming SpeedWAAAGH!- army than be almost forced to get 3 squads of 30 and warp them around with Da Jump in order to make an impact. Of course that doesn't mean Green Tide should become unviable but if Boyz remaining as they are take up a too big portion of the power budget of the rest of the faction I'd rather see them brought back into line and other units buffed than let things remain as they are.
RiTides wrote: the tangent about the relative power level of boyz, please. If you do want to discuss it further, either take it to PM or start up a thread in one of the sections I listed above (feel free to link to it here if you do).
Thanks all!
I don't understand this at all.
The topic is "Ork News and Rumours" and there is a rumour that Ork Boys are going to 7ppm. Surely this is exactly the place to discuss what impact that will have on the game?
calm down English... let's not risk your account over a potential rumour from a french dude about a game... I feel like what the mod is saying is that everyone is getting way to angry with each other and flooding pages with debates that are going nowhere. I would miss you if you went missing .
lolman1c wrote: the worst part about all this is that I've spent a few years now around people who have never even seen an Ork army never mind a Evil Sunz army like mine... Kinda made me feel special... now everyone is going to do speed freaks. XD I't selfish but it's the truth.
No but seriously, if they end up OP then everyone will just tell me I play them because they're OP even though I've played them in their worst for ages!
I'm in the same boat, but I seriously doubt they'll be OP. At least not a fluffy, non-horde evil sunz army. Orks are completely governed by the rule of cool for me, so even if a speed freeks evil sunz army becomes the meta, I'm sure I'll figure out a way to make them much worse but slightly cooler
lolman1c wrote: the worst part about all this is that I've spent a few years now around people who have never even seen an Ork army never mind a Evil Sunz army like mine... Kinda made me feel special... now everyone is going to do speed freaks. XD I't selfish but it's the truth.
No but seriously, if they end up OP then everyone will just tell me I play them because they're OP even though I've played them in their worst for ages!
Haha, I understand Still, if it's any consolation I've been wanting to do Speed Freeks for a longer time but felt that Orks kinda lacked the proper models for it (not really a big fan of the old buggy), but now that they're going to get that boatload of Mad Max racecars I can't wait to get started
Reads as if each of the six new vehicles will be tied to a particular clan
If they are, can I still take them in the same detachment? I want to make a right an' proppa SpeedWAAAGH!, and I can't do that if I have to make 6 different detachments
I interpreted that as them just saying what each of the paint jobs was, not them saying they are locked to a Clan.
lolman1c wrote: the worst part about all this is that I've spent a few years now around people who have never even seen an Ork army never mind a Evil Sunz army like mine... Kinda made me feel special... now everyone is going to do speed freaks. XD I't selfish but it's the truth.
No but seriously, if they end up OP then everyone will just tell me I play them because they're OP even though I've played them in their worst for ages!
Lol I'm in exactly the same boat. But I can make even the strongest unit in the game weak if I want though so I'm sure I'll manage.
If they're too strong that my opponents don't have fun I'll twilpr my list to suit.
calm down English... let's not risk your account over a potential rumour from a french dude about a game... I feel like what the mod is saying is that everyone is getting way to angry with each other and flooding pages with debates that are going nowhere. I would miss you if you went missing .
Lol I heart you too man. Speaking of which. Where you been?!
I don't think I'm risking my account, asking for clarification on the rules and why this is off topic.
Point taken though, I'll stop biting at these sorts of comments. Hopefully the rumours are bogus or got lost in translation?
Reads as if each of the six new vehicles will be tied to a particular clan
If they are, can I still take them in the same detachment? I want to make a right an' proppa SpeedWAAAGH!, and I can't do that if I have to make 6 different detachments
I interpreted that as them just saying what each of the paint jobs was, not them saying they are locked to a Clan.
You're right Tzeentch. There's a pic of the other vehicles painted in Evil Sunz colours so they're definitely not linked to a clan by definition.
lolman1c wrote: the worst part about all this is that I've spent a few years now around people who have never even seen an Ork army never mind a Evil Sunz army like mine... Kinda made me feel special... now everyone is going to do speed freaks. XD I't selfish but it's the truth.
No but seriously, if they end up OP then everyone will just tell me I play them because they're OP even though I've played them in their worst for ages!
Haha, I understand Still, if it's any consolation I've been wanting to do Speed Freeks for a longer time but felt that Orks kinda lacked the proper models for it (not really a big fan of the old buggy), but now that they're going to get that boatload of Mad Max racecars I can't wait to get started
meh I just painted my boyz red and said they're part of it. In the lore Evil Sunz still have mass boyz. They're the new orks who haven't gathered enough teef yet to buy a vehicle. It's also my I like trukks and wagons... they're just a bunch of orks who got together and saved up to buy a fast vehicle to all go into war like brothers!
lolman1c wrote: the worst part about all this is that I've spent a few years now around people who have never even seen an Ork army never mind a Evil Sunz army like mine... Kinda made me feel special... now everyone is going to do speed freaks. XD I't selfish but it's the truth.
No but seriously, if they end up OP then everyone will just tell me I play them because they're OP even though I've played them in their worst for ages!
Lol I'm in exactly the same boat. But I can make even the strongest unit in the game weak if I want though so I'm sure I'll manage.
If they're too strong that my opponents don't have fun I'll twilpr my list to suit.
calm down English... let's not risk your account over a potential rumour from a french dude about a game... I feel like what the mod is saying is that everyone is getting way to angry with each other and flooding pages with debates that are going nowhere. I would miss you if you went missing .
Lol I heart you too man. Speaking of which. Where you been?!
I don't think I'm risking my account, asking for clarification on the rules and why this is off topic.
Point taken though, I'll stop biting at these sorts of comments. Hopefully the rumours are bogus or got lost in translation?
Reads as if each of the six new vehicles will be tied to a particular clan
If they are, can I still take them in the same detachment? I want to make a right an' proppa SpeedWAAAGH!, and I can't do that if I have to make 6 different detachments
I interpreted that as them just saying what each of the paint jobs was, not them saying they are locked to a Clan.
You're right Tzeentch. There's a pic of the other vehicles painted in Evil Sunz colours so they're definitely not linked to a clan by definition.
I've been here, you've probably just missed me because I've not posted too much... I'm back in England after over half a year abroad teaching. I've just not had much to complain about recently... I've enjoyed most the previews so far. XD
Red Corsair wrote: Except when your shooting at something that you normally would have 0% chance of hitting your just gained not only 100% increase in your odds to hit, but also a second go around. Context matters mate.
A -1 to hit cuts in half Ork shooting.
-2 is comparatively rare. Suggesting that going from 0 to 16.6% hit probability is a 100% gain I think actually conceals a lot of that context.
The trait is meaningful relative to a meta that disadvantages low ballistic skill shooting.
The points increase has to be read relative to the overall value of the unit sum total relative to the other units in the game, and I just don,'t feel that jt's justified given everything you've brought up.
the french rumor says all units are viable except the nob/bobbiker/meganob. if true i will shed a tear for all my nobz, but the rest of the codex being viable makes me very happy.
this means that even with 7ppm boys are still usefull.
this means that doing a biker and trukk speedwaagh alongside the new buggies is viable
and hopefully this means my dreddmob will finally kromp again.
heck, this might mean the stompa might be good again (hard to believe i know, but im hopeful).
geargutz wrote: the french rumor says all units are viable except the nob/bobbiker/meganob. if true i will shed a tear for all my nobz, but the rest of the codex being viable makes me very happy.
this means that even with 7ppm boys are still usefull.
this means that doing a biker and trukk speedwaagh alongside the new buggies is viable
and hopefully this means my dreddmob will finally kromp again.
heck, this might mean the stompa might be good again (hard to believe i know, but im hopeful).
Don't worry it will take only 1 month and 1-2 tournaments to categorically decide that 95% of the codex is unusable trash in any kind of context or gameplay experience/community.
Chill. All of you. Otherwise, you might as well get upset by this ‘all Ork units are going up by 20% in terms of points and price, with significant rules nerfs. DDD only applies if you’ve expressly followed the Warhammer TV painting guide, and used Citadel Paints. All Tournament organisers have been issued spectrographic analysers, which they must use or Tom Kirby will ram all your closest living relatives up Mat Ward’s bum’.
And being a well documented former GW employee, don’t you dare question me!
That extra point covers boyz getting a Klan trait and strategem access too. DDD might not be worth a point, and could easily be seen as a bugfix so that -2 to hit doesn't make ork shooting pointless (and hence make orks reluctant to advance), but a 6++ on a 6 point model would be worth a point.
fe40k wrote: That sounds reasonable, but a 0% to 17% is a 17% increase, at best - which means, if you aren’t getting that always hits on 6s benefit with every attack, you’re actually getting less value than what you pay for; read, nerf.
Correct. And he discounts (completely) the high percentage of the time that a 7 point model actually has 0% to hit, before the rule.
The whole idea that a 7 point model is correctly pointed because it has a rule that allows it to shoot, and get a hit 1/6 of the time, when other, cheaper units get vastly more hits, is just trolling.
A devourer gaunt gets 1 and 1/2 st4 hits per turn, and has rules to boost even that. It's 8 points. Our 7 point model gets half of that output, for 7/8th the price. Anyone who thinks this is fair is just trolling.
No model is worth 7 points that only gets 1 st4 hit every 1-1/2 turns (or frequently every 3rd turn as BS6+), while at the same time dying to paper cuts. All of the rules in the world do not matter if a unit has negligible output.
I never discounted anything. The frequency of hit mods are not something I can objectively assume. If your advancing (which if your not your orking wrong) and shooting any flier or any eldar for the most part, stigys 8, raven guard or Alpha legion your at 0%. In my meta that's more then half the field, I am not going to attempt to try and guess everyone elses, but I am pretty sure those things I listed are all fairly popular.
Crap I somehow forgot every Tyranid army as well lol. So yea, not exactly a rare occurrence for my meta at least. If your playing in a soft core area where hit mods are rare then yea, it's kind of a flat perk for sure.
Sorry about the trolling comment.
Biggest complaint, of course, is IG. With almost the same output & durability, they are (now) 4/7 of the price...almost double the point efficiency. Add orders onto that (and no, our strats and traits won't compare to the IG strats and traits in addition to orders), they are more than double the efficiency.
If shootas are 7, guardsmen better be going up to 8.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tastyfish wrote: That extra point covers boyz getting a Klan trait and strategem access too. DDD might not be worth a point, and could easily be seen as a bugfix so that -2 to hit doesn't make ork shooting pointless (and hence make orks reluctant to advance), but a 6++ on a 6 point model would be worth a point.
Where is the guardsmen's point increase for getting klan traits?
geargutz wrote: the french rumor says all units are viable except the nob/bobbiker/meganob. if true i will shed a tear for all my nobz, but the rest of the codex being viable makes me very happy.
this means that even with 7ppm boys are still usefull.
this means that doing a biker and trukk speedwaagh alongside the new buggies is viable
and hopefully this means my dreddmob will finally kromp again.
heck, this might mean the stompa might be good again (hard to believe i know, but im hopeful).
Don't worry it will take only 1 month and 1-2 tournaments to categorically decide that 95% of the codex is unusable trash in any kind of context or gameplay experience/community.
Well in terms of viability I think we can at least bet that the stuff related to Speed Freeks will be decent. GW will want to sell models and good rules makes that happen. So bikes and buggies I reckon will have a place.
120pt Battlewagons sound plausible to me. I wonder how much Trukks are?
It'll be interesting to see how the weapons are priced, that for me will make or break the Dreadmob list and it'll help with the mechanised list.
The stratagems will make or break the ability of the codex to compete really and on that we have so far rumours of 2 stratagems that give mortal wounds which was an area I feel we were lacking so happy days (both related to vehicles - one on the charge and the other with the Trike boss).
I don't think that ITC requires you to rebase models if they are on what the base they came with. I wonder how they will handle this.
Also, what does it mean for all other Ork models that are larger than Grots but are currently on small bases? It would be silly to have Boyz on bigger bases than Nobz. What about Stormboyz, Lootas, Tankbustas, Burnaboyz, all the characters on small bases? Will all of those go to 32mm as well? If so, I will have to buy about 600x 32mm bases and rebase that many models.
Also, what does it mean for all other Ork models that are larger than Grots but are currently on small bases? It would be silly to have Boyz on bigger bases than Nobz. What about Stormboyz, Lootas, Tankbustas, Burnaboyz, all the characters on small bases? Will all of those go to 32mm as well? If so, I will have to buy about 600x 32mm bases and rebase that many models.
Red Corsair wrote: It's not really a nerf though.I'd call it a step to the side. They are getting Dakka dakka dakka, it's hard to justify a regular boy at 6ppm when they have mob rule, ear we go and DDD and THEN they get a clan trait. Especially when you look at the profile they have. The big issue orks had wasn't so much the infantry it was the prices of the other units. Sounds like everything else is getting the needed boosts. I still think the biggest issue against Ork viability from competition is going to be logistical. With 32mm bases and that giant oval the buggies are coming with, it is going to be desperate times figuring out where/how to deploy all your models and not have them get into eachothers way. If an army with flyers, particularly the eldar variety, go first they can hem your whole line in with their base. I really hope there are a lot of fun ways to move these guys around.
They went up a point and are on 32mm bases. A CQC focused unit. DDD makes them able to hit things that we literally had to just stare at before. It allows us to play the game. It's hardly a buff, particularly to a unit that isn't exactly known for its damage at range.
It's a massive, undeniable nerf.
Let's hope they have 5+ armour or something to balance things out...
It's certainly deniable. You gained a solid army wide rule that isn't related to free traits in DDD. That is the only undeniable fact. You were just hoping it was free, apparently it isn't.
No other factions models went up in price, because of the addition of sub-faction rules+traits and junk.
DDD is a joke of a rule; it sounds fun, but it’s 2/5 extra hits per 100 shots (depending if BS6/5). Pre-wounding/armor saves btw, so you might get ONE or TWO extra kills; per 100! shots. No ork unit has that much firepower to begin with (Shoota Boyz get halfway...), so...
For 210 points of boys, you get an additional 1-2 hits, at the cost of 30 extra points for the squad; and this is with no other combat related changes. That’s if you took SHOOTAS instead of CHOPPAS; which itself is a massive reduction of the units role - I love me shoots Boyz, but let’s not pretend that 1-2 hits makes them that amazing they deserved a nerf.
DDD is a rule for 8th edition, not for Orks. DDD is passable on Grots (and other 4+ to Grots, but since it doesn’t get effected by +1 modifiers, it really doesn’t do much either way). No unit should ever have been unable to be hit; hits should always land on 6’s, and miss on 1’s.
Don’t kid yourself into thinking DDD actually does anything useful.
Edit: On topic, looking forward to the codex; I love the new model designs. Waiting until November was a mistake, since Artifact+Keyforge release at the end of that month as well, and will eat into Ork player budgets if they’re into card games at all. Hope the Ork codex is balanced all around; and not just a few good units with the rest being trash - I want a balanced army, not an opfotm army.
DDD increases damage output by 16%, the same as one markerlight. It has exactly the same effect on Orks as on Tau drones.
JimOnMars wrote: Where is the guardsmen's point increase for getting klan traits?
Maybe in chapter approved, last balance for them was trying to get the internal balance between them and conscripts right (and this is not the only thread that questions their point cost) - but that's not the point. We're just talking ork boyz here.
Presumably if they're going up a point, playtesting during the development of the ork codex found that they were probably a bit too cheap at 6 points. Possibly down to internal balance, but I could believe that it could also be down to the traits being a little more significant than some of the other factions traits given orks already come with a speed boost and morale mitigation.
Anyone else notice this paragraph from the Speedfreaks article?
“With so many Orks on Vigilus, constantly testing the defences of the great hivesprawls (not to mention other enemies lurking within the dark places of the cities), it is only a matter of time before the Speedwaaagh! overcomes the Imperial defences and the racers get a whole new set of dangerous routes to race across and new enemies to test their wagons and bikes against.”
Kinda sounds like an expansion for Speedfreaks beyond the basic game..
Really it sounds like "Vigilus" is going to bring "new enemies" (aka new imperial units) rather than more ork boxes by the sounds of that quote.
Maybe but i'm not hearing more speed-freaks from that quote. Maybe the "and wagons" part. Maybe we could be getting a looted wagon kit?!? Wasn't there a rumor about that?
Jidmah wrote: 120 for a battlewagon, huh? That might just be low enough, I wonder what the trukk ended up with and what a deff rolla will cost.
I also love the return of the Warphead (lvl 2 psyker).
Oh, and is that a confirmation of nob bikers being in the codex? Me happy, I was afraid they were becoming display pieces
I mean...TEEEEECHNICALLY games workshop makes a nob biker figure in plastic.
You just need a lot of biker kits to field a unit of them
You can put nobz from the nobz box on warbikes, the bodies fit perfectly. This is how GW told us to build them when they were released.
Second option is to use spare nob torsos from boyz boxes on warbiker feet.
Last, but not least, FW actually sells a nob biker kit.
So maybe that's good enough for "has a model".
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, what the hell happened to the thread? Have you considered that 6ppm might have been too good in the context of the new codex?
There was a rumor of someone overhearing playtesters claiming that the ork codex was broken as gak and sent back to development because of that.
Oh, also remember how everyone was crying in anger how boyz were nerfed from 7th ed and utterly useless in 8th?
There is no way to tell if 7ppm boyz is fine or not without knowing more context, so go easy for once.
I'm pretty certain that with no other changes than the inclusion of DDD 32mm boys that cost 7 ppm are significantly worse than their current index counterparts. I'd say this is a fact, actually. I think its pretty clear that DDD is not worth a point on Boys. I also think its strange we 'pay' for Clan rules when no other faction has to date.
As almost everyone has said - if there are other buffs to balance out the cost increase then fair enough, a 5+ save would be welcome. But what we know now points to Boys becoming significantly worse.
This is further compounded by other units receiving no points increase in the FAQ. They will thus be worse compared to index Boys and relative to other units that have not been changed. Again if Infantry, FW, Kabalites etc get an increase fair enough, but we can only work with the rumours at hand and they don't look good for our primary troop choice.
I don't think that ITC requires you to rebase models if they are on what the base they came with. I wonder how they will handle this.
Also, what does it mean for all other Ork models that are larger than Grots but are currently on small bases? It would be silly to have Boyz on bigger bases than Nobz. What about Stormboyz, Lootas, Tankbustas, Burnaboyz, all the characters on small bases? Will all of those go to 32mm as well? If so, I will have to buy about 600x 32mm bases and rebase that many models.
Poppin in here to toss out an idea.
You can bulk buy 32mm conversion rings for this sort of thing. It's not the most ideal situation, and honestly I don't think it will matter in any setting aside from tournaments, but it's there. I know I'd be irate to have to rebase my gaunts/gants onto 32s... though I think I'd take the hit if it was genestealers getting bumped up. They look better and don't get hooked on everything with all their claws....
That's something I'm going to approach with skepticism until I see this codex.
The Evil Suns clan trait is by far the standout, and it restores orks up to 6" movement speed. Cool, I guess?
Or is it the super OP warlord trait that let's you teleport on turn 2?
I'll not assume either way, but I'm not going to default optimism to bad news. They historically adjusted shootas to 7 ppm. It's quite apparent that this is something they feel is baked into the statline. It's not like MEQs are priced in accordance with the ravenguard chapter tactics. They are literally priced to it's exclusion.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I'm pretty certain that with no other changes than the inclusion of DDD 32mm boys that cost 7 ppm are significantly worse than their current index counterparts. I'd say this is a fact, actually. I think its pretty clear that DDD is not worth a point on Boys. I also think its strange we 'pay' for Clan rules when no other faction has to date.
As almost everyone has said - if there are other buffs to balance out the cost increase then fair enough, a 5+ save would be welcome. But what we know now points to Boys becoming significantly worse.
This is further compounded by other units receiving no points increase in the FAQ. They will thus be worse compared to index Boys and relative to other units that have not been changed. Again if Infantry, FW, Kabalites etc get an increase fair enough, but we can only work with the rumours at hand and they don't look good for our primary troop choice.
I'd put money on the playtesting not being done with 32mm boyz. It's going to be people using their existing armies - I doubt we'll see GW make the suggested base size official in their tournaments, at least for some time.
Think it's just a bigger issue for fantasy given if you get an old army on ebay or old stock, the bases aren't even the right shape.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I'm pretty certain that with no other changes than the inclusion of DDD 32mm boys that cost 7 ppm are significantly worse than their current index counterparts. I'd say this is a fact, actually. I think its pretty clear that DDD is not worth a point on Boys. I also think its strange we 'pay' for Clan rules when no other faction has to date.
Bollocks. We are not paying for DDD and we are not paying for clan rules, and what other factions do doesn't matter one bit to orks. The one thing that matters is that orks, as a whole, work. Feth humies and spikey pansies, they will get their reward sooner or later.
I'll just go from the bold claim that anything but nobz is viable now (though I still wonder how they managed to make foot nobz worse than 7pt boyz).
We get lootas and planes that can actually alpha-strike something off the board.
We get psykers that can cast two powers, and probably at least one other useful power next to da jump
We get relics and warlord traits that enable warbosses to flip tanks again
We get stratagems that make key units harder to kill
We get stratagems that make boyz fight again
Now apply all that to a current ork green tide tournament list.
It might have turned out a tad too powerful and therefore boyz went up. The play tested some more and then it was fine. That's how play-testing is supposed to work.
And don't you dare start the argument about how play-testers should have let it slip through because they failed at their job for other codices.
As almost everyone has said - if there are other buffs to balance out the cost increase then fair enough, a 5+ save would be welcome. But what we know now points to Boys becoming significantly worse.
Or something trivial like green tide applying for 10+ models to make trukk boyz not suck...
Which leads me back to:
Jidmah wrote:There is no way to tell if 7ppm boyz is fine or not without knowing more context, so go easy for once.
This is further compounded by other units receiving no points increase in the FAQ.
Except GW told us that all point changes will be done in CA.
They will thus be worse compared to index Boys and relative to other units that have not been changed.
Unless those units are dead because they were shot at and run over twice by an ork food truck and eaten by a squig afterwards.
Again if Infantry, FW, Kabalites etc get an increase fair enough, but we can only work with the rumours at hand and they don't look good for our primary troop choice.
Go cuddle with da 'umies, fish'eads and spikey pansies if ya like 'em dat much, ya git!
"we can only work with the rumours at hand and they don't look good for our primary troop choice."
Or we could just wait till we know more instead of loosing our mind based on limited information.
Friggin' GW is making fun of ork players, ork threads have become more toxic than the "everybody hates peregrine"-thread and get locked twice a day and the ork community is dying because every attempt to discuss anything is drowned out a bunch of people telling everyone how GW is the worst company ever, over and over again.
Don't you think it's about time to return to rational discussion and abandon the "orks are offended by everything"-movement?
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I won't be all that bothered if Orks going to 7ppm alongside guardsme and other types going up 1 point as well. As long as there are other competitive options presented to us and we are freed from boy spam it will be a net gain for Orks.
Edit: Yeah count me in the DDD being weak and not worth boat. I would never pay a ppm for it anything that's not a pure shooting unit.
Ah yeah having classic playstyle completely removed is net gain right...GW making marketing decisions not related to game balance at all is after all soooooo great. Well enjoy when your favourite units gets nerfed to death.
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fe40k wrote: Let’s be real with ourselves; Boyz are 7ppm because they were the most popular ork units at tournaments, and because it forces players to buy newer/other models.
If that\s the way GW balances things around...Lol. They were popular because they were best of the bad but they were still not competive units. They weren't used much because they were good but because they were only unit that would not mean wipeout in turn 2-3.
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Red Corsair wrote: [quo Ah look, he just ignored my post and reframed my argument. Now that is face palm worthy. I just explained how you got a 3rd USR you didn't have. Not a clan trait, a brand new shinny USR. A point increase isn't a nerf when your getting something for it. Now, you can hate on DDD all you want, but I seem to recall half this thread derailing 30 pages back when Ork players were adamant this should be an ork only rule lol. You want exclusive access to a rule, you gotta pay for it.
Oh gee. Orks get something others got as well AND are hit by double nerf along. You think orks got something unique to themselves that justifies price hike. THEY DID NOT!
This is simple standard "we have sold lots of boyz, time to nerf them to death so people buy something else instead" move by GW that they are doing all the time. They don't care about balance. Just that every once in a while what was good before is nerfed to death and what was bad is boosted enough they suddenly sold.
We got new rules(others got it as well), nerf AND point cost. What is actually unique to ork is that we got nerf to our units as well as point hike. Rules? Those others got as well. DDD isn't unique in that regard.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I'm pretty certain that with no other changes than the inclusion of DDD 32mm boys that cost 7 ppm are significantly worse than their current index counterparts. I'd say this is a fact, actually. I think its pretty clear that DDD is not worth a point on Boys. I also think its strange we 'pay' for Clan rules when no other faction has to date.
As almost everyone has said - if there are other buffs to balance out the cost increase then fair enough, a 5+ save would be welcome. But what we know now points to Boys becoming significantly worse.
This is further compounded by other units receiving no points increase in the FAQ. They will thus be worse compared to index Boys and relative to other units that have not been changed. Again if Infantry, FW, Kabalites etc get an increase fair enough, but we can only work with the rumours at hand and they don't look good for our primary troop choice.
FAQ isn’t where points would be increased, that would be Chapter Approved.
Bollocks. We are not paying for DDD and we are not paying for clan rules, and what other factions do doesn't matter one bit to orks. The one thing that matters is that orks, as a whole, work. Feth humies and spikey pansies, they will get their reward sooner or later.
I'll just go from the bold claim that anything but nobz is viable now (though I still wonder how they managed to make foot nobz worse than 7pt boyz).
We get lootas and planes that can actually alpha-strike something off the board.
We get psykers that can cast two powers, and probably at least one other useful power next to da jump
We get relics and warlord traits that enable warbosses to flip tanks again
We get stratagems that make key units harder to kill
We get stratagems that make boyz fight again
Now apply all that to a current ork green tide tournament list.
It might have turned out a tad too powerful and therefore boyz went up. The play tested some more and then it was fine. That's how play-testing is supposed to work.
Please stop using logic and facts in the tneva Hyperbole Thread. How dare you offer a reasonable explanation for a 16% point increase that somehow turns units from good to COMPLETELY UNPLAYABLE.
1st" dont expect the discourse to get any better if you insult. im not the best at restraining myself about this, but i at least understand the fact that you wont get a reasonable discussion with anyone if you throw around "Go cuddle with da 'umies"
2nd."GW is making fun of ork players" GW makes fun of everyone, but they will be more sarcastic with others if they are more rowdy (like everyone bemoaning the loss of fly or whatever). after the orks are appeased it will be the next group of players that will get made fun of.
3rd. "drowned out a bunch of people telling everyone how GW is the worst company ever, over and over again." ok, so there are ork players who are a little historical and loud about it, but there are plenty of ork players who provide reasonable arguments. dont paint the whole community with the few cases like any other "anti orker" right now. your buying into that negativity and spreading it.
4th. "Don't you think it's about time to return to rational discussion" reference to my 1st point above. discourse is not going to get better if the insults keep flying.
now for my own thoughts. i was never one for green tide, i prefer all our cool vehicles. and i can see it being for internal balance and possibly isn't tied to just the addition of DDD and traits, but i can also see this as a way for GW to "sell other things".
but lets be honest. some of us are getting upset over these rumors of 7pt ork. and while many say "dont get worked up,wait till we see the dex", and i kinda agree with that, but i also see where all this anxiety is coming from.
if you can then look at it from this perspective. orktober has been hit or miss. cool new vehicles are awesome but no new rules are being previewed at all. infact the most reliable rules are coming from the leakers and from rumors. at this point many of us have more faith in what we hear from the rumors. also, the index and the 7th edition codex and waaaagh ghazkull supplement are all pretty dull thuds of rules. GW has shafted us ork player many times in the past, and while GW has done many factions good this edition they have still shafted others (greyknights,admek,spacewoves from what i hear). there is that chance that we can get shafted again and hearing that the only thing that was keeping us barely competitive are possibly going to be 7ppm.
if you take a moment to try to see it from that angle then you might understand why many ork players are less then thrilled. so top trying to perpetuate the myth of "all ork players are stupid whiners!"
If you see that as an "insult", you really should take time off posting on dakka and read some decent ork novel, flip through an old codex or read some ork posts on a WH40k wiki of your choice. You are obviously suffering from serious withdrawal effects from too little orkyness.
Will everyone be jumping on the Ork bandwagon? I have a small force of about 20 blood axe kommados I painted up for kill team and am tempted to expand them into a full army but if they become massively overused I might not bother
Rogerio134134 wrote: Will everyone be jumping on the Ork bandwagon? I have a small force of about 20 blood axe kommados I painted up for kill team and am tempted to expand them into a full army but if they become massively overused I might not bother
It's called a battlewagon
And there is enough room for everyone. Hold on good, we won't be coming back if you fall off
Bollocks. We are not paying for DDD and we are not paying for clan rules, and what other factions do doesn't matter one bit to orks. The one thing that matters is that orks, as a whole, work. Feth humies and spikey pansies, they will get their reward sooner or later.
I'll just go from the bold claim that anything but nobz is viable now (though I still wonder how they managed to make foot nobz worse than 7pt boyz).
We get lootas and planes that can actually alpha-strike something off the board.
We get psykers that can cast two powers, and probably at least one other useful power next to da jump
We get relics and warlord traits that enable warbosses to flip tanks again
We get stratagems that make key units harder to kill
We get stratagems that make boyz fight again
Now apply all that to a current ork green tide tournament list.
It might have turned out a tad too powerful and therefore boyz went up. The play tested some more and then it was fine. That's how play-testing is supposed to work.
Please stop using logic and facts in the tneva Hyperbole Thread. How dare you offer a reasonable explanation for a 16% point increase that somehow turns units from good to COMPLETELY UNPLAYABLE.
He's not using facts though.
All those stratagems, relics and psychic powers he said and you quoted are conjecture. The 'facts' are that Boys are going to 32s but gained DDD. That's a nerf, regardless of any other changes. Then we hear a rumour that Boys have also gone up a point. This is also a nerf.
I haven't said anywhere that Boys are now unplayable. You can play with any unit this edition, I always run bikes for example. Something many of you think is impossible in a competitive setting.
What I actually did was to refute the idea that this isn't a nerf. Of course it is, if there are no other changes. Whether its a needed nerf or not will come from seeing the rest of the codex (this is something I've also said repeatedly).
Or we could just wait till we know more instead of loosing our mind based on limited information.
Friggin' GW is making fun of ork players, ork threads have become more toxic than the "everybody hates peregrine"-thread and get locked twice a day and the ork community is dying because every attempt to discuss anything is drowned out a bunch of people telling everyone how GW is the worst company ever, over and over again.
Don't you think it's about time to return to rational discussion and abandon the "orks are offended by everything"-movement?
I fail to see how discussion around the viability of Boys at 7ppm on 32s is anything but rational. Seems to be a whole lot of strawmanning in your post above.
People aren't 'losing their minds'. They aren't 'being toxic'. I don't think I've seen the words 'GW is the worst company ever' at all. In any thread. I've seen people strawmanning that this is what some of the Ork player base believe though. Which is bogus. This isn't a 'orks are offended by everything-movement', it's a discussion around rumours presented (y'know, the title). If someone says something in a thread that is flat wrong, like 'this nerf to Boys is more of a 'side grade' I don't think there's any harm trying to correct them.
I thought you of all people would want to discuss the tactical value of a unit that has increased in cost by 16%, has become half as effective in close combat (where the majority of their damage is) but gained DDD and the clan traits.
Yes we need to see the full codex. But unless you've got a copy to share and discuss this is all we have.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Will everyone be jumping on the Ork bandwagon? I have a small force of about 20 blood axe kommados I painted up for kill team and am tempted to expand them into a full army but if they become massively overused I might not bother
It's called a battlewagon
And there is enough room for everyone. Hold on good, we won't be coming back if you fall off
Exactly, that shouldn't bother you. I know that, but to be fair I have Imperial Knights and when they got massively improved with their codex I've been less inclined to use them. I just want Orks to be strong and viable in several builds but hopefully none of those builds becomes the net list and comes under massive scrutiny gfrom GW.
(Also, it's a lot easier to jump on the battlewagon if it indeed got a 41 points drop)
If you see that as an "insult", you really should take time off posting on dakka and read some decent ork novel, flip through an old codex or read some ork posts on a WH40k wiki of your choice. You are obviously suffering from serious withdrawal effects from too little orkyness.
Ya weedy git.
insults are insults, no matter how "mild" they might be. im fine and dandy with the occasional insult,like i said, i do it myself, i was just stating that trying to bring about a proper discussion is not helped when you start with an insult. this is debate 1o1. if you want a logical debate/conversation then you don't throw an insult. if you want to stay closed off and in your own bubble of thought while villainizing the opposition then throw as many insults as you want.
back on the topic of rumors
it said only nobs/bikenobs/meganobs are bad while the rest was good.i like the sound of that. too bad we dont have much to go off of if that includes the units that will most likely be left in the index.
index models are the least likely to get pts adjustments in either a codex or chapter approved, but their war gear can still be changed for the better. if the twinbigshoota or the skorcha get decent price decreases then maybe the defkopta and old buggies might still be usefull (if not ultra competitive). the defkopta is one of my favorite models and i constantly worry whats gonna become of it.
though we might get lucky. if we have so many units with no models/not plastic then maybe GW might keep them in the codex instead of keeping them in the index so that we wont have a good portion of our army dropped (this is me hoping more then anything, its probably unlikely)
Please stop using logic and facts in the tneva Hyperbole Thread. How dare you offer a reasonable explanation for a 16% point increase that somehow turns units from good to COMPLETELY UNPLAYABLE.
He's not using facts though.
All those stratagems, relics and psychic powers he said and you quoted are conjecture. The 'facts' are that Boys are going to 32s but gained DDD. That's a nerf, regardless of any other changes. Then we hear a rumour that Boys have also gone up a point. This is also a nerf.
I haven't said anywhere that Boys are now unplayable. You can play with any unit this edition, I always run bikes for example. Something many of you think is impossible in a competitive setting.
What I actually did was to refute the idea that this isn't a nerf. Of course it is, if there are no other changes. Whether its a needed nerf or not will come from seeing the rest of the codex (this is something I've also said repeatedly).
Not sure why you're replying to me like this when I didn't quote your post at all? I specifically referenced tneva who claimed Boyz had been "nerfed to death".
Also it would be handy if you can reference any GW rules text that means you have to either:
a) Rebase existing models onto 32mm bases
b) Are forced to use 32mm bases
Because without that rule that's not a nerf
Ammo Pouch wrote: Kommandos no longer available on GW site, does this indicate new Kommando kits inbound?
It most likely indicates a re-packaging with new box art and assembly instructions that include 8E rules.
xttz wrote: Not sure why you're replying to me like this when I didn't quote your post at all? I specifically referenced tneva who claimed Boyz had been "nerfed to death".
Also it would be handy if you can reference any GW rules text that means you have to either:
a) Rebase existing models onto 32mm bases
b) Are forced to use 32mm bases
Because without that rule that's not a nerf.
Let me paint a scenario for you, see if it helps explain where I'm coming from. Imagine I'm a new player who has no orks and want to start an army so I buy a few boxes of Boys. What bases will they be supplied/built with? What happens if an existing player wants to add a few more Boys to his army? He plays with Boys on different sized bases or what?
For all of us existing players I'll refer you to the AOS suggested base size chart for matched play (as in casual matched play, not just tournament play). How long do you think it'll be before GW release an equivalent document for 40k?
xttz wrote: Not sure why you're replying to me like this when I didn't quote your post at all? I specifically referenced tneva who claimed Boyz had been "nerfed to death".
Also it would be handy if you can reference any GW rules text that means you have to either:
a) Rebase existing models onto 32mm bases
b) Are forced to use 32mm bases
Because without that rule that's not a nerf.
Let me paint a scenario for you, see if it helps explain where I'm coming from. Imagine I'm a new player who has no orks and want to start an army so I buy a few boxes of Boys. What bases will they be supplied/built with? What happens if an existing player wants to add a few more Boys to his army? He plays with Boys on different sized bases or what?
For all of us existing players I'll refer you to the AOS suggested base size chart for matched play (as in casual matched play, not just tournament play). How long do you think it'll be before GW release an equivalent document for 40k?
Is a point increase not a nerf?
Well, it seems to me like most players who already have a lot of boyz will probably get some of the old, smaller bases from somewhere else and stick those on. Who would know? But yeah, for new players it'll be 32's most likely. I sort of imagine this will be reinforced when 9th rolls around
Well, it seems to me like most players who already have a lot of boyz will probably get some of the old, smaller bases from somewhere else and stick those on. Who would know? But yeah, for new players it'll be 32's most likely. I sort of imagine this will be reinforced when 9th rolls around
Yea I agree.
You play Evil Sunz like me right? Are you going to rebase your bikes with those ovals assuming you get speed freeks?
Well, it seems to me like most players who already have a lot of boyz will probably get some of the old, smaller bases from somewhere else and stick those on. Who would know? But yeah, for new players it'll be 32's most likely. I sort of imagine this will be reinforced when 9th rolls around
Yea I agree.
You play Evil Sunz like me right? Are you going to rebase your bikes with those ovals assuming you get speed freeks?
Yeah, I do & I think I will, since I don't have a massive amount of bikes.. I'm unsure if GW sells those bases by themselves though and not in some assorted base blister pack. Although frankly, I probably prefer the look of the old bikes bases (something that cannot be said for boyz on 32's, which are aesthetically much more pleasing than the old ones)
I will, however, absolutely get Speed Freeks. Everything in that box seems pretty useful and it might be the only way to get those specific buggies for a while and at a (hopefully) significant discount, so why not?
Anyway, I've been following this thread for the odd bits of news on it. I've played Orc/Orks for the last 20 years so don't really do it for the super competitive side of the game, I just really like them and the lore around them. I do hope the codex brings some some units back into being responsibly useful and makes speedwaaagh! or lists other than Greentide more of a possibility
I'm really liking the new models they have revealed so far and a small but greedy part of me still wants more new models that aren't buggies/vehicles. Even if some of the new ones turn out to be not worth the points then at least I have a whole load of new bits to do conversions with As for release dates, delayed gratification is what is all about
I'll reserve my judgement of the whole month when its over.
An Actual Englishman wrote: For all of us existing players I'll refer you to the AOS suggested base size chart for matched play (as in casual matched play, not just tournament play). How long do you think it'll be before GW release an equivalent document for 40k?
You really need to decide whether uncertain rules are valid arguments or not.
As of now, you allow yourself to assume things while attacking other people for doing the same.
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Ammo Pouch wrote: Kommandos no longer available on GW site, does this indicate new Kommando kits inbound?
They have two signs, one is "Sold out" and one is "No longer available". The later one could indicate something.
More likely kommados are just gone because of their popularity in killteam.
I do love these Ork threads. We all fight among ourselves to get stronger until our codex comes out and we band together to crush the other factions (and maybe still fight each other a little).
You really need to decide whether uncertain rules are valid arguments or not.
As of now, you allow yourself to assume things while attacking other people for doing the same.
The thread is for discussing rumours. These rules are all uncertain until GW decides to publish the codex. I thought we were to make sensible assumptions based off the rumours rather than just making up our own ideas and adding them to the mix?
The rumours are that Boys are going to 32s and they are 7ppm. If we discount the 32 base because there's no official rule telling us to rebase, surely you admit an increase from 6-7 ppm without any other changes is a nerf? Do you reckon DDD is worth the extra point? Or that and clan tactics?
I'm not seeing it.
Your counter, of course is the rumoured fight again stratagem that Boys can employ. But we pay for stratagems with CP right?
Has no-one really managed to translate all the Ork rumours from that french youtube video yet? Or were they correctly translated in their entirety already?
ceorron wrote: Really it sounds like "Vigilus" is going to bring "new enemies" (aka new imperial units) rather than more ork boxes by the sounds of that quote.
Maybe but i'm not hearing more speed-freaks from that quote. Maybe the "and wagons" part. Maybe we could be getting a looted wagon kit?!? Wasn't there a rumor about that?
I wasn't talking about more models. While I'm happy with the new buggies I would have preferred maybe two multi-build kits and the other resources used for Kommandos and some new oddboyz. We really don't need more buggies.
I was thinking more along the lines of the gameplay. I'm not getting the impression that GorkaMorka style games can be done with Speedfreeks. I'm thinking about rules for infantry and trukks and more constrictive battlefields (ALL of which MIGHT be in Speedfreeks, but I've yet to see any sort of dismounted models). I don't expect the game to get continuous support they way they seem to be planning for Kill Team, but "it is only a matter of time before the Speedwaaagh! overcomes the Imperial defences and the racers get a whole new set of dangerous routes to race across and new enemies to test their wagons and bikes against.." seems like something additional is coming. It might be the addition of human teams, but there aren't many vehicles that would be suitable. I doubt they will release a whole range of of light human vehicles, but MAYBE Necromunda has similar plans for Outland expansion and two will crossover.
Let’s be real with ourselves; Boyz are 7ppm because they were the most popular ork units at tournaments, and because it forces players to buy newer/other models.
Pretty much this.
If boyz were the most optimal choice by a large margin it would hurt the sales of all the snazzy new vehicles.
Let’s be real with ourselves; Boyz are 7ppm because they were the most popular ork units at tournaments, and because it forces players to buy newer/other models.
Pretty much this.
If boyz were the most optimal choice by a large margin it would hurt the sales of all the snazzy new vehicles.
Won't really matter if the Boyz are overpriced now if the other problem Troop choices are getting bumped up with CA2019 in December.
PiñaColada wrote: Has no-one really managed to translate all the Ork rumours from that french youtube video yet? Or were they correctly translated in their entirety already?
From a french youtube channel on warhammer, usually they are accurate, but to take with a pinch of salt :
- He will be less than 10 HP, apparently 8 HP - Cost of 120 points
- Weapon profile : S+2, AP -2, 5 Attacks, D3 wounds
Was just gonna post this, there's also the following info;
In french and not the main subject of the video but some leak of ork codex.
https://youtu.be/gP8xf6qjmLk?t=960 16:00 Weirboy upgrade by stratagem (1CP) to Akkro (psyker niv 2)
https://youtu.be/gP8xf6qjmLk?t=1551 25:50 Two of the new vehicle will be OP, Boss on bike will be around 120pts for 8W 5A of power klaw, new stratagem for the boss on bike if he fall back roll dice for dealing mortal wound
https://youtu.be/gP8xf6qjmLk?t=2685 44:45 Teleporta stratagem 2CP at deployment if unit cost under 20 power points it can be place in reserve and arrive at the end of a mouvement phase at 9'' of an enemy unit (Gorka/Morkanaught ?)
https://youtu.be/gP8xf6qjmLk?t=3250 54:10 Confirm of orktober fail => Speed Freak release 27 preco of codex 27 for release in november
https://youtu.be/gP8xf6qjmLk?t=3881 1:04:40 Boyz on 32mn cost 7pts now. Grot shield stratagem for 1CP if grot unit is between target and shooting unit grot can intercept wound like tau drone (on 2+). Evil sun trait +1mvt bonus for advance/charge (+2 for speed freak) no penalty for advance and shooting assault weapon. Bad moon trait reroll 1 for hiting in shooting phase. Goff trait 6+ to hit on cac generate additional attack (like dakka dakka). No new Ghazghkull miniature. Battle wagon 120 base point (without weapon). Nearly all unit will be "playable" except nob, nob biker, meganob (too expensive for what they offer)
Boyz 7 pts, welp let's hope the Buggies and Bikes are competitive!
I listened to the video at the different times originally posted by the Englishman (see spoiler), and the translation is correct. I haven't watched the whole 5 hours video, tho... Some of it seemed like the guy "knew" the information (2 of the buggies being OP, 32mm bases for boys, 7 pts boys, grot still 3 pts, grot shield strategem, clan traits, no Ghazghkull new model, trukk boyz being viable, nobz being bad, BW being 120 pts) and at other times he seemed to be wishlisting (weirdboy stratagem for level 2, wartrike stats, teleporta stratagem) . But it could still be true. Seemed like educated guesses.
yeah, i feel like the translation needs context. He could be wish-listing and people are miss translating. However, out of all of them only 1 or two of the leaks are new so he could be getting them for the same source or just talking about stuff he has read.
Tastyfish wrote: That extra point covers boyz getting a Klan trait and strategem access too. DDD might not be worth a point, and could easily be seen as a bugfix so that -2 to hit doesn't make ork shooting pointless (and hence make orks reluctant to advance), but a 6++ on a 6 point model would be worth a point.
As pointed out before, no other faction received a price hike on their troops simply because they gained access to Klan Trait (equivalents) or strategems. DDD isn't worth anything since its such a MINOR increase in shooting, if boyz went to 4+ to hit then yeah maybe a 1pt bump would be needed, but not for DDD, that was simply a way to make ork shooting at least not worthless against some armies/units. A 6+++ on a 6pt model is not worth a point either and as mentioned that is a Klan trait.
JimOnMars wrote: Where is the guardsmen's point increase for getting klan traits?
Maybe in chapter approved, last balance for them was trying to get the internal balance between them and conscripts right (and this is not the only thread that questions their point cost) - but that's not the point. We're just talking ork boyz here.
Presumably if they're going up a point, playtesting during the development of the ork codex found that they were probably a bit too cheap at 6 points. Possibly down to internal balance, but I could believe that it could also be down to the traits being a little more significant than some of the other factions traits given orks already come with a speed boost and morale mitigation.
Playtesting by Ork play testers is about as reliable as a 20 year old condom with a hole in it. Ork playtesters tested our index remember? A specific member of that team went ahead and said something along the lines of "THE STOMPA IS AMAZING!" and "KANZ ARE SUPER GOOD!" how did that pan out?
As for the speed boost....you mean by nerfing our movement in 8th by 17%?
Kap'n Krump wrote: 7 point boyz is a bit of a disappointment - maybe they're trying to get people to bring something besides boyz spam? If that's the case, they'd better give us other playable options.
Agreed. I'll never understand GW's attitude toward orks. Why chose to nerf our one good unit?
Perhaps... and bear with me here... Boyz are now even better thanks to having access to new armywide special rules, stratagems, cheaper transports, etc?
Army wide special rules...like everyone else, stratagems....like everyone else, Cheaper transports......maybe? But if the points for boyz and battlwagonz are correct then 20 boyz in a wagon only dropped 20pts. So going from useless in the extreme to useless? Not to mention that unless they change our unit bonus then those boyz need to lose 1 model to lose 20 CC attacks.
rollawaythestone wrote: It's possible Chapter Approved roles around and raises the cost of all trash-mob units to limit hordes on the tabletop?
I was just going to post this. I have been suspecting GW is going to increase most of the basic infantry in the game by 1-2 points.
BTW you guys need to consider table top performance. A basic shoota boy from the Evil Suns will now have mob rule, DDD, Ear we go, +1 to advance and +1 to charges and ignore the penalty on every gun the unit can take. That effectively gives them a 27" threat range and they will average 20 s4 hits per 30 man mob. If they were 6ppm that would be way too much IMHO. Oh and that mob can still assault if a boss is nearby (why wouldn't he be) for another 40 s4 hits. The fact that they are T4 is a big deal.
Evil suns is stupidly good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Who said your going up for faction traits? Your ignoring what I wrote pretty blatantly. You GAINED DDD, DDD as far as I am aware is not a trait. So your not going up in cost for nothing.
20 S4 hits against a Tac Marine unit is 10 wounds and 3.3 Dead Marines which totals 39pts. So a 210pt unit managed to kill 40pts of Marines. My general rule of thumb is that a unit should be able to kill about 1/3rd of its total points cost in a single shooting phase to be considered good, not great, not epic, just good. this thing didn't even kill 1/5th.
DDD isn't worth anything for most units, its good for a couple of units to get maybe an extra hit like KMKs but it is so unreliable that you really can't count on it doing anything. 6+'s are generally like that, unless you are rolling a LOT of dice on 6+ it isn't worth much. Take our Armor save for example, that 6+ doesn't happen often enough, but when it does its kind of like a little bonus you get a warm fuzzy about. "Ohhh! instead of losing 12 models I only lost 10, cool!". You could take away ork armor saves in general and make them 5ppm and it would be a buff not a nerf.
lolman1c wrote: yeah, i feel like the translation needs context. He could be wish-listing and people are miss translating. However, out of all of them only 1 or two of the leaks are new so he could be getting them for the same source or just talking about stuff he has read.
Well like I said, sometimes he was saying it like he was wishlisting (see my previous post), but at other times (and most of the time), he was saying it like he had read the codex or playtested or spoke to someone who had. He was sure of the info.
Trust my native language, I'm not miss translating
Tastyfish wrote: That extra point covers boyz getting a Klan trait and strategem access too. DDD might not be worth a point, and could easily be seen as a bugfix so that -2 to hit doesn't make ork shooting pointless (and hence make orks reluctant to advance), but a 6++ on a 6 point model would be worth a point.
As pointed out before, no other faction received a price hike on their troops simply because they gained access to Klan Trait (equivalents) or strategems. DDD isn't worth anything since its such a MINOR increase in shooting, if boyz went to 4+ to hit then yeah maybe a 1pt bump would be needed, but not for DDD, that was simply a way to make ork shooting at least not worthless against some armies/units. A 6+++ on a 6pt model is not worth a point either and as mentioned that is a Klan trait.
I said DDD was a bugfix, not something that would warrant a price change. 6+++ is definitely worth around a 1 point on a 6 point model - it'll save you 1pts worth of Ork per Ork just from saves, as well as likely saving another ork or two from morale if you had taken enough casualties for that to be an issue (say 12 guys from a unit of 24 - Snakebites only lose 10 and will lose another ork or two on a 5 or 6. Index orks will lose 12 and then D6 more Orks!) - plus it's a toughness boost on a tough horde infantry unit.
Assuming that the other traits are close to this, then a codex ork boy could well be worth 7 points once strats/psychics/traits are taken into account. What happened to other factions is irrelevant, as is how much they costed in the index - what matters is how much an Ork boy is worth in the new codex. And if you're going to write off playtesting by the development team, then not a lot to say - Codex Orks is a different list from Index Orks, no reason to expect things to stay the same.
Whether the boosts from other elements of the codex outweighs the increase in cost is what's going to determine whether Boyz have been buffed or nerfed. If I had to guess whether a Codex list with 7pt boyz would beat an index list with 6pt ones, both going boy heavy even - I'd put my money on the Codex Ladz.
Tastyfish wrote: That extra point covers boyz getting a Klan trait and strategem access too. DDD might not be worth a point, and could easily be seen as a bugfix so that -2 to hit doesn't make ork shooting pointless (and hence make orks reluctant to advance), but a 6++ on a 6 point model would be worth a point.
As pointed out before, no other faction received a price hike on their troops simply because they gained access to Klan Trait (equivalents) or strategems. DDD isn't worth anything since its such a MINOR increase in shooting, if boyz went to 4+ to hit then yeah maybe a 1pt bump would be needed, but not for DDD, that was simply a way to make ork shooting at least not worthless against some armies/units. A 6+++ on a 6pt model is not worth a point either and as mentioned that is a Klan trait.
I said DDD was a bugfix, not something that would warrant a price change. 6+++ is definitely worth around a 1 point on a 6 point model - it'll save you 1pts worth of Ork per Ork just from saves, as well as likely saving another ork or two from morale if you had taken enough casualties for that to be an issue (say 12 guys from a unit of 24 - Snakebites only lose 10 and will lose another ork or two on a 5 or 6. Index orks will lose 12 and then D6 more Orks!) - plus it's a toughness boost on a tough horde infantry unit.
Assuming that the other traits are close to this, then a codex ork boy could well be worth 7 points once strats/psychics/traits are taken into account. What happened to other factions is irrelevant, as is how much they costed in the index - what matters is how much an Ork boy is worth in the new codex. And if you're going to write off playtesting by the development team, then not a lot to say - Codex Orks is a different list from Index Orks, no reason to expect things to stay the same.
Whether the boosts from other elements of the codex outweighs the increase in cost is what's going to determine whether Boyz have been buffed or nerfed. If I had to guess whether a Codex list with 7pt boyz would beat an index list with 6pt ones, both going boy heavy even - I'd put my money on the Codex Ladz.
DDD is not a bug fix, as there are other units that hit on 5s that haven't received the same attention, if it was truly a bug fix they would have used the errata to fix it and make it game wide. This was a bad attempt at fixing the fact that our shooting is for the most part irrelevant. 6+++ is not worth 1pt per model no matter how much you want it to be. A Painboy does the exact same thing and costs 53pts (would be 40 if they would let us not take a damn PK on him) and he can easily spread across 2-3 mobs of boyz without a problem, which would be a saving of 7pts on 2 mobz and 37 on 3. Not to mention the added benefits like healing characters and not being to bad in CC. So no, it is not worth 1ppm.
What happens to other factions is completely relevant since we have to weigh our army vs theirs. If no other army saw a major increase in cost to troops (17% is a pretty big increase) then why would ours be the only one? You can't say because of special klan rules or because strats or psychic powers because every other factions had the same treatment.
And yeah, i tend to disregard the development teams playtesters. Look at the wonderful examples of "Balance" they have given us in the past. Stompa costs almost 3 times what a knight costs but is only as effective as 1, maybe 1.5. Our list of unplayable units in 8th is astounding, in 7th we had unarguably a bottom tier army, they gave us a codex and 2 supplements and still couldn't fix the balance issue. Hell, they made Knights and Scat bikes a thing but couldn't figure out that Orkz needed a boost. I could keep going on and cover a number of other things the supposed "playtesters" took a look at but I doubt it would matter. The fact is that the playtesters literally told us the Stompa was going to be great in 8th index Orkz, It is unarguably the worst unit in our codex.
The boosts from other elements of the codex shouldn't even matter when you are pricing boyz. Boyz are almost perfect where they are, adding in those klan buffs and what not and they are perfect at 6ppm. The fact that Trukkz need to be half the price shouldn't justify increasing the cost of those boyz unless you likewise want to give boyz another increase in durability or damage output. I'll gladly agree to 7ppm if they give us a 5+ Save instead of making a model that loses 40-60 a turn more expensive.
I don't know why people keep saying that no basic infantry troop saw a point change to pay for their access to subfaction bonuses when their codex dropped.
Most of them did! Only they dropped in price instead of going up
I listened to the video at the different times originally posted by the Englishman (see spoiler), and the translation is correct. I haven't watched the whole 5 hours video, tho... Some of it seemed like the guy "knew" the information (2 of the buggies being OP, 32mm bases for boys, 7 pts boys, grot still 3 pts, grot shield strategem, clan traits, no Ghazghkull new model, trukk boyz being viable, nobz being bad, BW being 120 pts) and at other times he seemed to be wishlisting (weirdboy stratagem for level 2, wartrike stats, teleporta stratagem) . But it could still be true. Seemed like educated guesses.
Hello everyone. I'm a french long time lurker and I'd like to give you a some informations regarding the french youtube channel everyone is talking about to give you some context.
The channel is called "French Wargame Studio" and it began as a fan-made channel by a passionate Warhammer player : Heavy (that's his name). Overtime, his channel became quite well-known in France because, well, they are not a lot of french speaking youtube channel about Warhammer
Some time ago, he contacted GW asking for something like a partnership (because it's not exactly a partnership, he doesn't work for GW but I can't find the appropriate english word for that) and GW was really impressed with the channel overall but wanted him to reach a specific number of susbscribers (if I remember correctly, I think it was 10K subscribers).
Since then the channel grew quite a bit and he has access to some sources inside GW and GW gives him access to new Codexes and releases (AoS V2, Killteam) very quickly so that he can put up reviews and make "unboxing" videos etc. Of course he doesn't know everything and of course he has to be careful about what he says. Nevertheless, everytime he gave a couple of informations about an upcoming release, he was right.
Tastyfish wrote: That extra point covers boyz getting a Klan trait and strategem access too. DDD might not be worth a point, and could easily be seen as a bugfix so that -2 to hit doesn't make ork shooting pointless (and hence make orks reluctant to advance), but a 6++ on a 6 point model would be worth a point.
As pointed out before, no other faction received a price hike on their troops simply because they gained access to Klan Trait (equivalents) or strategems. DDD isn't worth anything since its such a MINOR increase in shooting, if boyz went to 4+ to hit then yeah maybe a 1pt bump would be needed, but not for DDD, that was simply a way to make ork shooting at least not worthless against some armies/units. A 6+++ on a 6pt model is not worth a point either and as mentioned that is a Klan trait.
I said DDD was a bugfix, not something that would warrant a price change. 6+++ is definitely worth around a 1 point on a 6 point model - it'll save you 1pts worth of Ork per Ork just from saves, as well as likely saving another ork or two from morale if you had taken enough casualties for that to be an issue (say 12 guys from a unit of 24 - Snakebites only lose 10 and will lose another ork or two on a 5 or 6. Index orks will lose 12 and then D6 more Orks!) - plus it's a toughness boost on a tough horde infantry unit.
Assuming that the other traits are close to this, then a codex ork boy could well be worth 7 points once strats/psychics/traits are taken into account. What happened to other factions is irrelevant, as is how much they costed in the index - what matters is how much an Ork boy is worth in the new codex. And if you're going to write off playtesting by the development team, then not a lot to say - Codex Orks is a different list from Index Orks, no reason to expect things to stay the same.
Whether the boosts from other elements of the codex outweighs the increase in cost is what's going to determine whether Boyz have been buffed or nerfed. If I had to guess whether a Codex list with 7pt boyz would beat an index list with 6pt ones, both going boy heavy even - I'd put my money on the Codex Ladz.
You're saying that as if Ravenguard spends one extra ppm for a far superior -1 to hit.
Or Iron Hands.
Please advise of any faction or unit in the game that is priced based on unit synergy, chapter or warlord traits.
lolman1c wrote: yeah, i feel like the translation needs context. He could be wish-listing and people are miss translating. However, out of all of them only 1 or two of the leaks are new so he could be getting them for the same source or just talking about stuff he has read.
Well like I said, sometimes he was saying it like he was wishlisting (see my previous post), but at other times (and most of the time), he was saying it like he had read the codex or playtested or spoke to someone who had. He was sure of the info.
Trust my native language, I'm not miss translating
Now it could still be false info. We shall see.
Hahaha, I was more saying that's you're more believable than others who post from a script. You hear the context of it... a bit like if someone was sarcastic but the translator never picked up on that and it sounds like the president is declaring war.
I listened to the video at the different times originally posted by the Englishman (see spoiler), and the translation is correct. I haven't watched the whole 5 hours video, tho... Some of it seemed like the guy "knew" the information (2 of the buggies being OP, 32mm bases for boys, 7 pts boys, grot still 3 pts, grot shield strategem, clan traits, no Ghazghkull new model, trukk boyz being viable, nobz being bad, BW being 120 pts) and at other times he seemed to be wishlisting (weirdboy stratagem for level 2, wartrike stats, teleporta stratagem) . But it could still be true. Seemed like educated guesses.
Hello everyone. I'm a french long time lurker and I'd like to give you a some informations regarding the french youtube channel everyone is talking about to give you some context.
The channel is called "French Wargame Studio" and it began as a fan-made channel by a passionate Warhammer player : Heavy (that's his name). Overtime, his channel became quite well-known in France because, well, they are not a lot of french speaking youtube channel about Warhammer
Some time ago, he contacted GW asking for something like a partnership (because it's not exactly a partnership, he doesn't work for GW but I can't find the appropriate english word for that) and GW was really impressed with the channel overall but wanted him to reach a specific number of susbscribers (if I remember correctly, I think it was 10K subscribers).
Since then the channel grew quite a bit and he has access to some sources inside GW and GW gives him access to new Codexes and releases (AoS V2, Killteam) very quickly so that he can put up reviews and make "unboxing" videos etc. Of course he doesn't know everything and of course he has to be careful about what he says. Nevertheless, everytime he gave a couple of informations about an upcoming release, he was right.
lolman1c wrote: Hahaha, I was more saying that's you're more believable than others who post from a script. You hear the context of it... a bit like if someone was sarcastic but the translator never picked up on that and it sounds like the president is declaring war.
Haha right!
Can't wait to see the codex, I hope trukk boyz are a thing again! I'm really not a fan of green tides... And for me a green tide is bringing 60-90 boyz
I don't want to get into the big debate "is getting boyz at 7 ppm a nerf" but I'll say this (and I'm probably not the first one to say it), it may very well be deserved:
What we know: - Boyz right now are decent, if not good;
- Boyz get DDD;
- Boyz get clan traits;
- Boyz get strategems;
What could happen: - Boyz might get upgrades in stats or armor (like when they went S+1 in 8th index);
- Boyz might get more special rules;
- Boyz might get free/cheaper heavy weapons;
- Boyz might get access to more auras from units or relics;
- Boyz might get cheaper transports;
- Boyz will probably get 32mm bases, but it might never be enforced;
- Choppas might get better;
- Free boss nobz might get better;
- Other infantry units might get cost increase in the next CA;
Seriously, I don't care if other infantry units didn't get cost increase when they received traits and strategems in their codexes. What I care about is having a solid ork codex, with good balance overall and fun units.
lolman1c wrote: I'd pay 7pts if there were two options like in the older codex. 6pts for the now boyz or 7pts for 4+ armour save boyz.
I can guarantee you they will not be giving us 4+ armor for 7pts, at most they might give us 5+ but that is a stretch. A 4+ would cost at least 2ppm, probably 3.
lolman1c wrote: I'd pay 7pts if there were two options like in the older codex. 6pts for the now boyz or 7pts for 4+ armour save boyz.
I can guarantee you they will not be giving us 4+ armor for 7pts, at most they might give us 5+ but that is a stretch. A 4+ would cost at least 2ppm, probably 3.
AN ORK CAN DREAM! Also the leaked strat about us getting 4+ armour only if a vehicle blows up close by is kinda a tell tail sign we won't get 4+ armour.
I'd take 7ppm Boys if we got 5+ save. I can't see it though. Feel our resident Frenchman would have told us if Boys had changed further? Could be wrong though.
You Ork players are ridiculous regarding Boyz just like the IG players defending Infantry squads. You got a consistent S4, an extra attack, and the fact your 6+ save isn't just ignored by everything but Lasguns for no point increase, and now you got Klan rules and the Dakka rule. Yeah you go up a point. Deal with it.
That isn't even considering what units got price cuts which will likely do more than even out.
Also regarding troops that went up in price, I think Daemons got that treatment and then Grey Knight Terminators did as well with their codices.
Disappointment so far is the Grot Shield thing apparently being a strategem, would be ok if you play it on the Grots, but guessing its played on an Ork unit (so grots can only shield one), hoping it lasts for the remainder of the turn and its played when the shots come in.
Pity, it sounded something useful for Grots to have as an actual rule
lolman1c wrote: I'd pay 7pts if there were two options like in the older codex. 6pts for the now boyz or 7pts for 4+ armour save boyz.
I can guarantee you they will not be giving us 4+ armor for 7pts, at most they might give us 5+ but that is a stretch. A 4+ would cost at least 2ppm, probably 3.
AN ORK CAN DREAM! Also the leaked strat about us getting 4+ armour only if a vehicle blows up close by is kinda a tell tail sign we won't get 4+ armour.
I really hope we are getting 4+ or my 'ard boyz are going to have to go away!! That maybe the worst thing I have heard about this codex if true.
My 'ard boyz do well enough in their trukk at 10ppm, hope that doesn't change too.
leopard wrote: Disappointment so far is the Grot Shield thing apparently being a strategem, would be ok if you play it on the Grots, but guessing its played on an Ork unit (so grots can only shield one), hoping it lasts for the remainder of the turn and its played when the shots come in.
Pity, it sounded something useful for Grots to have as an actual rule
It would've been a cool rule to have in general I agree, but at least the idea is there. I wish Cultists did the same thing for the CSM army.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You Ork players are ridiculous regarding Boyz just like the IG players defending Infantry squads. You got a consistent S4, an extra attack, and the fact your 6+ save isn't just ignored by everything but Lasguns for no point increase, and now you got Klan rules and the Dakka rule. Yeah you go up a point. Deal with it.
That isn't even considering what units got price cuts which will likely do more than even out.
Also regarding troops that went up in price, I think Daemons got that treatment and then Grey Knight Terminators did as well with their codices.
wut? our 6+ save is always vulnerable to AP weapons, when did it become invulnerable? I mean I've entered a few tournaments now where my Boyz are all off the table turn one by marine flyers and aggressors. Especially the DA ones. Once they're gone I have no way to output any damage...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You Ork players are ridiculous regarding Boyz just like the IG players defending Infantry squads. You got a consistent S4, an extra attack, and the fact your 6+ save isn't just ignored by everything but Lasguns for no point increase, and now you got Klan rules and the Dakka rule. Yeah you go up a point. Deal with it.
That isn't even considering what units got price cuts which will likely do more than even out.
Also regarding troops that went up in price, I think Daemons got that treatment and then Grey Knight Terminators did as well with their codices.
Can't wait for Cultists to get that price increase they so obviously deserve.
Not all Daemon troops went up in cost, you're thinking of Brimstones and Blues, that were horribly, brokenly undercosted.
Anyway, doesn't matter... What will happen will happen and like the real Orks we will adapt to it. Worst case scenario is we will be in the same place as the index. Everything will suck apart from our Boyz but now they're 30pts more expensive for a blob of them... but it won't matter because orks pretty much sucked in the index anyway.
best case scenario, boyz are still okay for 7pts each and everything else is okay.
I highly doubt they will change the boys stat line. The increase to 7pts is probably in anticipation of CA increasing the cost of a lot of cheap infantry
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You Ork players are ridiculous regarding Boyz just like the IG players defending Infantry squads. You got a consistent S4, an extra attack, and the fact your 6+ save isn't just ignored by everything but Lasguns for no point increase, and now you got Klan rules and the Dakka rule. Yeah you go up a point. Deal with it.
That isn't even considering what units got price cuts which will likely do more than even out.
Also regarding troops that went up in price, I think Daemons got that treatment and then Grey Knight Terminators did as well with their codices.
wut? our 6+ save is always vulnerable to AP weapons, when did it become invulnerable? I mean I've entered a few tournaments now where my Boyz are all off the table turn one by marine flyers and aggressors. Especially the DA ones. Once they're gone I have no way to output any damage...
I'm not saying it's a Invul, but compared to how many weapons used to ignore the save and the new wounding system making most weapons hurt you less, it was a significant durability increase.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You Ork players are ridiculous regarding Boyz just like the IG players defending Infantry squads. You got a consistent S4, an extra attack, and the fact your 6+ save isn't just ignored by everything but Lasguns for no point increase, and now you got Klan rules and the Dakka rule. Yeah you go up a point. Deal with it.
That isn't even considering what units got price cuts which will likely do more than even out.
Also regarding troops that went up in price, I think Daemons got that treatment and then Grey Knight Terminators did as well with their codices.
wut? our 6+ save is always vulnerable to AP weapons, when did it become invulnerable? I mean I've entered a few tournaments now where my Boyz are all off the table turn one by marine flyers and aggressors. Especially the DA ones. Once they're gone I have no way to output any damage...
I'm not saying it's a Invul, but compared to how many weapons used to ignore the save and the new wounding system making most weapons hurt you less, it was a significant durability increase.
Comparing this edition to last is like comparing apples to iphones.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You Ork players are ridiculous regarding Boyz just like the IG players defending Infantry squads. You got a consistent S4, an extra attack, and the fact your 6+ save isn't just ignored by everything but Lasguns for no point increase, and now you got Klan rules and the Dakka rule. Yeah you go up a point. Deal with it.
That isn't even considering what units got price cuts which will likely do more than even out.
Also regarding troops that went up in price, I think Daemons got that treatment and then Grey Knight Terminators did as well with their codices.
wut? our 6+ save is always vulnerable to AP weapons, when did it become invulnerable? I mean I've entered a few tournaments now where my Boyz are all off the table turn one by marine flyers and aggressors. Especially the DA ones. Once they're gone I have no way to output any damage...
I'm not saying it's a Invul, but compared to how many weapons used to ignore the save and the new wounding system making most weapons hurt you less, it was a significant durability increase.
Everything you're saying is based on a bias and isn't taking into consideration all the factors.
Ork boys don't exist in a vacuum.
The 6+ gets ignored by anything with an AP value, which is nearly the same as last Ed, except for boltguns losing their AP.
The permanent S4 is an improvement. Free nobs is an improvement. Loss of eavy armor on nob and on the boys mob is bad. Cost increases on special weapons were bad.
Loss of 1" of base movement speed was really bad.
If they stay as is, plus chapter tactics (bringing them to par), and DDD, with cost savings on trukks and battlewagons, plus 1 ppm - they aren't exactly going to be overpowered.
What will be the big determining factor is transports, synergy/auras, wargear and options and cost changes on those, and the strategems making it easier to get to the assault with controlled model bleed.
And we just don't have enough data on that given the leaks currently. The +1 ppm is currently bad news until we see other mitigating factors. The 32mm base thing is also concerning. But we can't really have hyperbole in either direction until more info hits.
So let's stay neutral, read the news as it is, and go forward based on that lack of bias for or against the faction. Some of the language you used made me question the impartiality of the analysis.
Billagio wrote: I highly doubt they will change the boys stat line. The increase to 7pts is probably in anticipation of CA increasing the cost of a lot of cheap infantry
I suspect as much. I expect there will be 0 Points Changes to Orks in CA2018, with everything already baked into the codex.
The real questions are:
1. Boyz are going up, but is anything coming down?
2. How widespread will points changes for other Codexes be in Chapter Approved.
Only once both set of questions are answered will the true place for Orks in the codex power curve be determined.
Now I’m good and drunk, I’m back to the mentality of a much younger gamer.
These models? Ace.
Their rules? Provided they’re stupid fast, and the rules reflect that (some kind of negative mod to enemy BS), reckon I’m all good. Single Krak should probably bollocks up their day. Just had to hit first!
Their Dakka? Don’t care if it’s inaccurate, long as there’s loadsa dice involved, and the hits actual matter a damn.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You Ork players are ridiculous regarding Boyz just like the IG players defending Infantry squads. You got a consistent S4, an extra attack, and the fact your 6+ save isn't just ignored by everything but Lasguns for no point increase, and now you got Klan rules and the Dakka rule. Yeah you go up a point. Deal with it.
That isn't even considering what units got price cuts which will likely do more than even out.
Also regarding troops that went up in price, I think Daemons got that treatment and then Grey Knight Terminators did as well with their codices.
wut? our 6+ save is always vulnerable to AP weapons, when did it become invulnerable? I mean I've entered a few tournaments now where my Boyz are all off the table turn one by marine flyers and aggressors. Especially the DA ones. Once they're gone I have no way to output any damage...
I'm not saying it's a Invul, but compared to how many weapons used to ignore the save and the new wounding system making most weapons hurt you less, it was a significant durability increase.
Everything you're saying is based on a bias and isn't taking into consideration all the factors.
Ork boys don't exist in a vacuum.
The 6+ gets ignored by anything with an AP value, which is nearly the same as last Ed, except for boltguns losing their AP.
The permanent S4 is an improvement. Free nobs is an improvement. Loss of eavy armor on nob and on the boys mob is bad. Cost increases on special weapons were bad.
Loss of 1" of base movement speed was really bad.
If they stay as is, plus chapter tactics (bringing them to par), and DDD, with cost savings on trukks and battlewagons, plus 1 ppm - they aren't exactly going to be overpowered.
What will be the big determining factor is transports, synergy/auras, wargear and options and cost changes on those, and the strategems making it easier to get to the assault with controlled model bleed.
And we just don't have enough data on that given the leaks currently. The +1 ppm is currently bad news until we see other mitigating factors. The 32mm base thing is also concerning. But we can't really have hyperbole in either direction until more info hits.
So let's stay neutral, read the news as it is, and go forward based on that lack of bias for or against the faction. Some of the language you used made me question the impartiality of the analysis.
1. The AP is nearly the same? LOL. Have you really seen the weapon profiles this edition or not? It's not everything "except for boltguns".
2. Everyone got the same special weapon treatments and then costs went down with the codices. Same applies here.
3. The +1 point isn't bad news considering Boyz didn't get worse in any area and improved significantly if anything.
Now I’m good and drunk, I’m back to the mentality of a much younger gamer.
These models? Ace.
Their rules? Provided they’re stupid fast, and the rules reflect that (some kind of negative mod to enemy BS), reckon I’m all good. Single Krak should probably bollocks up their day. Just had to hit first!
Their Dakka? Don’t care if it’s inaccurate, long as there’s loadsa dice involved, and the hits actual matter a damn.
This is about where I am right now.. drunk, just want fun models.
Bad moonz + dakkadakkadakka is really annoying. It really slows down the rolls.
We were trying to figure out the order of operations.
Roll some twin big shootas.
Bunch of 1's, bunch of 6's.
Re-roll the 1's, get some 6's, does dakka dakka activate?
Get a dakka dakka dakka 6, then roll a 1, that is a "seperate" to hit roll, so would you then get a reroll from that for the bad moonz trait?
So it was possible to roll a 1, then roll a 6, which generates another shot, which you roll a 1 from, which you then reroll. (because it is a separate to hit roll).
Deathskullz was my favorite so far. 6++ was fantastic. Really helped save cp by having the free 1 reroll to hit or damage (saved all for damage rolls).
(Of course this is all not fully confirmed, just reporting to change up some of the chattin and get some feedback).
Bad moonz + dakkadakkadakka is really annoying. It really slows down the rolls.
We were trying to figure out the order of operations.
Roll some twin big shootas.
Bunch of 1's, bunch of 6's.
Re-roll the 1's, get some 6's, does dakka dakka activate?
Get a dakka dakka dakka 6, then roll a 1, that is a "seperate" to hit roll, so would you then get a reroll from that for the bad moonz trait?
So it was possible to roll a 1, then roll a 6, which generates another shot, which you roll a 1 from, which you then reroll. (because it is a separate to hit roll).
Isn't DDD just another autohit on a 6? You don't roll for it as far as I know.
It's not an auto hit, it generates an additional shot, which you then roll for, thus creating the cycle again. The only thing listed in the DDD is that a DDD can not explode into another DDD.
greggles wrote: It's not an auto hit, it generates an additional shot, which you then roll for, thus creating the cycle again. The only thing listed in the DDD is that a DDD can not explode into another DDD.
Ah, went and looked at the rule again. That does seem pretty clunky.
Bad moonz + dakkadakkadakka is really annoying. It really slows down the rolls.
We were trying to figure out the order of operations.
Roll some twin big shootas.
Bunch of 1's, bunch of 6's.
Re-roll the 1's, get some 6's, does dakka dakka activate?
Get a dakka dakka dakka 6, then roll a 1, that is a "seperate" to hit roll, so would you then get a reroll from that for the bad moonz trait?
So it was possible to roll a 1, then roll a 6, which generates another shot, which you roll a 1 from, which you then reroll. (because it is a separate to hit roll).
Deathskullz was my favorite so far. 6++ was fantastic. Really helped save cp by having the free 1 reroll to hit or damage (saved all for damage rolls).
(Of course this is all not fully confirmed, just reporting to change up some of the chattin and get some feedback).
Yeah, roll to hit, reroll those 1s, then roll additional dice for your 6s, then reroll the new 1s. Pretty long. I've started using Assault Dice app for this, I'm getting the hang of it.
The sad thing about this whole thing? Even with the trait and DDD, it STILL isn't as good as BS 4+ ...
You really need to decide whether uncertain rules are valid arguments or not.
As of now, you allow yourself to assume things while attacking other people for doing the same.
The thread is for discussing rumours. These rules are all uncertain until GW decides to publish the codex. I thought we were to make sensible assumptions based off the rumours rather than just making up our own ideas and adding them to the mix?
The rumours are that Boys are going to 32s and they are 7ppm. If we discount the 32 base because there's no official rule telling us to rebase, surely you admit an increase from 6-7 ppm without any other changes is a nerf? Do you reckon DDD is worth the extra point? Or that and clan tactics?
I'm not seeing it.
Your counter, of course is the rumoured fight again stratagem that Boys can employ. But we pay for stratagems with CP right?
You argument is based on the assumption that you have to rebase boyz.
At the same time you tell me I'm not allowed to make assumption based on rumors we actually have.
So, maybe go read my previous post instead and respond to its arguments of hand-waving it if you are interested in an honest discussion.
You argument is based on the assumption that you have to rebase boyz.
If boyz are still competetive in the new codex i suspect that a rebasing will be enforced by tournaments and casuals alike.
The KFF for example is 50% better (if my math is correct) with 25mm bases not to mention CC.
Bad moonz + dakkadakkadakka is really annoying. It really slows down the rolls.
We were trying to figure out the order of operations.
Roll some twin big shootas.
Bunch of 1's, bunch of 6's.
Re-roll the 1's, get some 6's, does dakka dakka activate?
Get a dakka dakka dakka 6, then roll a 1, that is a "seperate" to hit roll, so would you then get a reroll from that for the bad moonz trait?
So it was possible to roll a 1, then roll a 6, which generates another shot, which you roll a 1 from, which you then reroll. (because it is a separate to hit roll).
Deathskullz was my favorite so far. 6++ was fantastic. Really helped save cp by having the free 1 reroll to hit or damage (saved all for damage rolls).
(Of course this is all not fully confirmed, just reporting to change up some of the chattin and get some feedback).
Yeah, roll to hit, reroll those 1s, then roll additional dice for your 6s, then reroll the new 1s. Pretty long. I've started using Assault Dice app for this, I'm getting the hang of it.
The sad thing about this whole thing? Even with the trait and DDD, it STILL isn't as good as BS 4+ ...
BS5+DDD+RR1's vs BS4+RR1's, plus -1 to hit modifiers
Spoiler:
60 shots, hitting on 5+ [60]*(0.333) = 19.98 base hits
+
[40.02]*(0.25) = 10.005 misses, re-rollable 1's
[10.005]*(0.333) = 3.331665 misses converted to hits
=
19.98+3.33 = 23.31 initial hits
[23.31]*(0.5) = 11.665 extra attacks
[11.665]*(0.333) = 3.881115 extra hits
+
[7.783885]*(0.25) = 1.94597125 misses, re-rollable 1's
[1.94597125]*(0.333) = 0.64800842625 misses converted to extra hits
TOTAL: 19.98+3.33+3.881+0.648 = 27.839 total hits
60 shots * BS4+ = 30 hits
60 shots * BS4+ * RR1's = 34.995
---
Lots of re-rolling for... ~BS4.5/BS4.7-8. I mean it's an increase over our straight BS5+; but this is pre-modifiers. A -1 will straight dumpster this compared to BS4->BS5 reduction.
---
60 shots, hitting on 6+ [60]*(0.1667) = 10.002 base hits
+
[49.998]*(0.2) = 9.9996 misses, re-rollable 1's
[9.9996]*(0.1667) = 1.66693332 misses converted to hits
=
10.002+1.666 = 11.668 initial hits
[11.668]*(1) = 11.668 extra attacks
[11.668]*(0.1667) = 1.9450556 extra hits
+
[9.7229444]*(0.2) = 1.94458888 misses, re-rollable 1's
[1.94458888]*(0.1667) = 0.324162966296 misses converted to extra hits
Yeah, BS4+ is straight better across the board. DDD plus RRall (Tankbusta's), or DDD plus BS4+ may close the distance in certain situations; but...
That said, I checked out Assault Dice - it seems to simplify this process, a LOT.
Add all your dice, roll initial results - pick up 1's and RR (other dice will shift space, but not change facing) - select everything that missed and move them to the cup; the total remaining at the bottom is the number of hits (or just add the top together) - move all hits except 6's to the cup - RR all 6's, RR1's, then add final total hits to previous number.
Typing it out it may seem a bit much; but in the app, it's Roll-Reroll-Cup-Count-Cup-Roll6's again-RR1's-add it all together. 8 steps, and much quicker then actually rolling the dice on the table, and hand sorting (at least in the case of Shoota Boyz 60 shots). That said, rolling buckets of dice is the reason you play Orks... but then again, re-rolling all the 1's, then 6's, then 1's again and counting it all up - it's a lot of work for a minor gain.
But I guess I shouldn't be complaining about any increase to our hits/final damages; Ork shooting needs it.
You argument is based on the assumption that you have to rebase boyz.
If boyz are still competetive in the new codex i suspect that a rebasing will be enforced by tournaments and casuals alike.
The KFF for example is 50% better (if my math is correct) with 25mm bases not to mention CC.
Did anybody have that problem ever? With all the other armies that already had base swaps? My plague marines stand on their 25mm bases just fine and I saw 2nd ed armies on dakka with terminators on 25mm bases as well. And if I recall correctly GW still says "build the models on the bases they are provided with".
You argument is based on the assumption that you have to rebase boyz.
If boyz are still competetive in the new codex i suspect that a rebasing will be enforced by tournaments and casuals alike.
The KFF for example is 50% better (if my math is correct) with 25mm bases not to mention CC.
Did anybody have that problem ever? With all the other armies that already had base swaps? My plague marines stand on their 25mm bases just fine and I saw 2nd ed armies on dakka with terminators on 25mm bases as well. And if I recall correctly GW still says "build the models on the bases they are provided with".
The problem with orks is that there are so many of them and that the footprint really is important. 30 boyz on 32mm bases take up a lot of more space compared to 25mm.
If a KFF has stats and a points value based on 32mm bases using 25mm bases can be argued to be cheating or building to advantage.
You really need to decide whether uncertain rules are valid arguments or not.
As of now, you allow yourself to assume things while attacking other people for doing the same.
The thread is for discussing rumours. These rules are all uncertain until GW decides to publish the codex. I thought we were to make sensible assumptions based off the rumours rather than just making up our own ideas and adding them to the mix?
The rumours are that Boys are going to 32s and they are 7ppm. If we discount the 32 base because there's no official rule telling us to rebase, surely you admit an increase from 6-7 ppm without any other changes is a nerf? Do you reckon DDD is worth the extra point? Or that and clan tactics?
I'm not seeing it.
Your counter, of course is the rumoured fight again stratagem that Boys can employ. But we pay for stratagems with CP right?
You argument is based on the assumption that you have to rebase boyz.
At the same time you tell me I'm not allowed to make assumption based on rumors we actually have.
So, maybe go read my previous post instead and respond to its arguments of hand-waving it if you are interested in an honest discussion.
Previous rebasings have nit been for horde armies.
I guarantee you that GW is not going to say you "have" to rebase. What non GW events do is up to them. The whole ethos of GW now is about the hobby being easier..... no one in their right mind can claim rebasing scores of Orks is going to be easy.....
We 'should' get a Warhammer community coming soon article today if Orks are happening before end of the month. Interestingly at the Forge World store yesterday the existing Ork kits had been put on seperate display in the "say goodbye area" .... all ones based around the existing vehicle chassis.
You argument is based on the assumption that you have to rebase boyz.
If boyz are still competetive in the new codex i suspect that a rebasing will be enforced by tournaments and casuals alike.
The KFF for example is 50% better (if my math is correct) with 25mm bases not to mention CC.
Did anybody have that problem ever? With all the other armies that already had base swaps? My plague marines stand on their 25mm bases just fine and I saw 2nd ed armies on dakka with terminators on 25mm bases as well. And if I recall correctly GW still says "build the models on the bases they are provided with".
The problem with orks is that there are so many of them and that the footprint really is important. 30 boyz on 32mm bases take up a lot of more space compared to 25mm.
If a KFF has stats and a points value based on 32mm bases using 25mm bases can be argued to be cheating or building to advantage.
That’s probably the best point that’s been made about 32mm; KFF is based on 25mm and ENTIRELY WITHIN.
Big difference when switching to 32mm, especially when trying to cover multiple squads.
insaniak wrote: The hypothetical 'You fit this many more 25mm bases in range' only applies if you're packing boys in base contact over the entire surrounding area.
I'll admit I'm slightly out of touch with the current game, but I've never seen that happen on the table.
It happens all the time dude. I squeeze as many models (not just Boys) in the area around a KFF Mek as possible. I'd assume every player takes casualties from the models outside of KFF range too if there's stragglers. Its trying to eke out as much value as you can from the unit.
insaniak wrote: The hypothetical 'You fit this many more 25mm bases in range' only applies if you're packing boys in base contact over the entire surrounding area.
I'll admit I'm slightly out of touch with the current game, but I've never seen that happen on the table.
It happens all the time dude. I squeeze as many models (not just Boys) in the area around a KFF Mek as possible. I'd assume every player takes casualties from the models outside of KFF range too if there's stragglers. Its trying to eke out as much value as you can from the unit.
Yeah, that can get dicey. Say for the sake of argument, that they extend the KFF range to 12" to hellt mitigate the bigger bases. If you're still on 25's then that's a buff that "shouldn't" be there..
By the way, there are no rumours of us getting a big mek on the wartrike, right? I hate the idea that the big meks are losing their bikes (even if index is still a thing, but I would assume they are gone in 9th)
insaniak wrote: The hypothetical 'You fit this many more 25mm bases in range' only applies if you're packing boys in base contact over the entire surrounding area.
I'll admit I'm slightly out of touch with the current game, but I've never seen that happen on the table.
It happens all the time dude. I squeeze as many models (not just Boys) in the area around a KFF Mek as possible. I'd assume every player takes casualties from the models outside of KFF range too if there's stragglers. Its trying to eke out as much value as you can from the unit.
Yeah, that can get dicey. Say for the sake of argument, that they extend the KFF range to 12" to hellt mitigate the bigger bases. If you're still on 25's then that's a buff that "shouldn't" be there..
By the way, there are no rumours of us getting a big mek on the wartrike, right? I hate the idea that the big meks are losing their bikes (even if index is still a thing, but I would assume they are gone in 9th)
They could just change the KFF from being wholly within, to just a single model within (like most auras used to be). If they want to balance it make the aura radius short, so it is still difficult to pack too many units around.
Yeah, that can get dicey. Say for the sake of argument, that they extend the KFF range to 12" to hellt mitigate the bigger bases. If you're still on 25's then that's a buff that "shouldn't" be there..
By the way, there are no rumours of us getting a big mek on the wartrike, right? I hate the idea that the big meks are losing their bikes (even if index is still a thing, but I would assume they are gone in 9th)
Yea I suppose base changes are always messy and its just something most armies have to go through at one point or another. It won't be long before its all done and we forget there was ever a problem.
Yea no rumours of Big Mek on Wartrike, it's just the boss. Rumour is that there's no Big Mek on bike either, which I don't really get because surely a Big Mek, whether forced to maintain Bikes for a boss or the boss himself, would surely have a bike over a Boy?
Its made even more bizarre because isn't that new 'Krooldakka' character, the so called speedlord supreme, a Big Mek himself?
Maybe those kits will follow down the line next year?
With the re basing we have a few things to remember:
Recent tournaments have enforced that bases must be on current bases. - doesn't effect me i don't join big tournaments.
New players buying orks or people adding to the collection have to run these orks on larger bases. - this is where the nerf comes in. It's all the new players playing orks for the first time. Therefore, if I fight a new player I will automatically have an advantage as I can fit in a lot more Orks than they can.
Yeah, that can get dicey. Say for the sake of argument, that they extend the KFF range to 12" to hellt mitigate the bigger bases. If you're still on 25's then that's a buff that "shouldn't" be there..
By the way, there are no rumours of us getting a big mek on the wartrike, right? I hate the idea that the big meks are losing their bikes (even if index is still a thing, but I would assume they are gone in 9th)
Yea I suppose base changes are always messy and its just something most armies have to go through at one point or another. It won't be long before its all done and we forget there was ever a problem.
Yea no rumours of Big Mek on Wartrike, it's just the boss. Rumour is that there's no Big Mek on bike either, which I don't really get because surely a Big Mek, whether forced to maintain Bikes for a boss or the boss himself, would surely have a bike over a Boy?
Its made even more bizarre because isn't that new 'Krooldakka' character, the so called speedlord supreme, a Big Mek himself?
Maybe those kits will follow down the line next year?
Yeah, maybe they'll flesh out the lineup with more kits but the rumoured removal of the big mek on bike upsets me. I never used the painboy on bike so that one I don't really care about personally and the warboss is getting another ride so that doesn't matter but losing the mobile KFF would hurt. I guess I'd care less if we could get a KFF upgrade to the battlewagon where that vehicle produced like an 6" aura or something (or if they changed it so that's how the aura worked if a big mek with KFF is embarked on the vehicle)
They are bigger than i thought. Must be more durable than the old ork buggies at that size.
Man that camera and/or the levels of compression is honestly bad to such a degree it's almost endearing. But yeah, they look a bit beefier than I expected. They'll be around 8-10 wounds depending on the model I guess
Yeah, there is a bunch of recent tournaments doing this. Look at the one who told everyone a whole week before the event that everything played must be on current bases.
Yeah, there is a bunch of recent tournaments doing this. Look at the one who told everyone a whole week before the event that everything played must be on current bases.
If thats the case looks like i'm never going to a GW tournaments ever again then.
I guarantee you that GW is not going to say you "have" to rebase. What non GW events do is up to them. The whole ethos of GW now is about the hobby being easier..... no one in their right mind can claim rebasing scores of Orks is going to be easy.....
I guarantee GW is going to say you have to make all measurements as if the models were on the correct sized bases, tho. Which is a practical impossibility and so a de facto demand to rebase.
“Correct” base is the one it comes with according to GW though, meaning no need to rebase. Not sure how you can “guarantee” GW event will make you measure, for example, 12” + 7mm.
Yeah, there is a bunch of recent tournaments doing this. Look at the one who told everyone a whole week before the event that everything played must be on current bases.
It is hardly GW's fault that tournaments make idiotic house rules.
Nostromodamus wrote: “Correct” base is the one it comes with according to GW though, meaning no need to rebase. Not sure how you can “guarantee” GW event will make you measure, for example, 12” + 7mm.
Because they do in AoS. There is a document of correct base sizes and you are required to measure that way, which, as I have already said, is impossible in practice and so it is a disguised demand to rebase.
I’m sure some day GW will come out with base extenders and then say you need to use current base measurements. However this isn’t something currently enforced by GW. It’s not even a huge issue in tournaments.
If they ever require rebasing I’ll just buy aftermarket base extenders and a little green stuff and it’s not a huge issue. I won’t be exacto knifing 100+ Boyz.
That said, I checked out Assault Dice - it seems to simplify this process, a LOT.
Do you know if they are ever coming out with an android app? It was slated over a year ago, haven't seen anything about it. Keep checking the store. I can't see being able to use the badmoonz trait + DDD without some sort of app. With the dice on the table it is CLUNKY and time consuming for units like shoota boyz and lootas.
Yeah, there is a bunch of recent tournaments doing this. Look at the one who told everyone a whole week before the event that everything played must be on current bases.
If thats the case looks like i'm never going to a GW tournaments ever again then.
greggles wrote: It's not an auto hit, it generates an additional shot, which you then roll for, thus creating the cycle again. The only thing listed in the DDD is that a DDD can not explode into another DDD.
Ah, went and looked at the rule again. That does seem pretty clunky.
Yup, they could have just said 6s generate 2 hits or given us a flat out BS4+ but they went and fethed it up with all the special rules that they were supposed to be getting away from
gungo wrote: I’m sure some day GW will come out with base extenders and then say you need to use current base measurements. However this isn’t something currently enforced by GW. It’s not even a huge issue in tournaments.
If they ever require rebasing I’ll just buy aftermarket base extenders and a little green stuff and it’s not a huge issue. I won’t be exacto knifing 100+ Boyz.
Base extenders, basing materials, paints and decorations for 250 orks will set you back about £150, not to mention all the extra work trying to make the extenders look like real bases.
Nostromodamus wrote: “Correct” base is the one it comes with according to GW though, meaning no need to rebase. Not sure how you can “guarantee” GW event will make you measure, for example, 12” + 7mm.
Because they do in AoS. There is a document of correct base sizes and you are required to measure that way, which, as I have already said, is impossible in practice and so it is a disguised demand to rebase.
Yeah, there is a bunch of recent tournaments doing this. Look at the one who told everyone a whole week before the event that everything played must be on current bases.
If thats the case looks like i'm never going to a GW tournaments ever again then.
Silly GW.
No, this was non GW tournaments.
Oh, ok then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nightlord1987 wrote: Find it funny people argue Index options are obsolete but will defend their 25mm bases on Boyz...
So... You only support legacy options that benefit you Eh?
What happens if and when you add a new unit in?
Will you have some on 25s, some on 32s?
Will you downgrade any new kits on 32s with 25s?
Are you modeling for convenience, or modeling FOR ADVANTAGE?
Modelling for whichever is cheapest. The new models will go on the 32s. which will look bad but there you go. Which will make buying new models worse as you know.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Find it funny people argue Index options are obsolete but will defend their 25mm bases on Boyz...
So... You only support legacy options that benefit you Eh?
What happens if and when you add a new unit in?
Will you have some on 25s, some on 32s?
Will you downgrade any new kits on 32s with 25s?
Are you modeling for convenience, or modeling FOR ADVANTAGE?
Or maybe because rebasing 100+ models is a huge pain in the ass, and you could risk breaking them?
I will have a mix of 32s and 25s. Already have it that way for my necrons. I use whatever base the model came with.
mortar_crew wrote: I just noticed FW store does not have the (gigantic) squiggoth is the list at all now,
it looks like they axed it altogether?
They have not had it for years for sale at Forgeworld I have looked to buy it on there several times over the past years and I can say probably atleast 3 years give or take.
Yeah, there is a bunch of recent tournaments doing this. Look at the one who told everyone a whole week before the event that everything played must be on current bases.
If thats the case looks like i'm never going to a GW tournaments ever again then.
Silly GW.
No, this was non GW tournaments.
Oh, ok then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nightlord1987 wrote: Find it funny people argue Index options are obsolete but will defend their 25mm bases on Boyz...
So... You only support legacy options that benefit you Eh?
What happens if and when you add a new unit in?
Will you have some on 25s, some on 32s?
Will you downgrade any new kits on 32s with 25s?
Are you modeling for convenience, or modeling FOR ADVANTAGE?
Modelling for whichever is cheapest. The new models will go on the 32s. which will look bad but there you go. Which will make buying new models worse as you know.
Yeah.....I have 250ish Boyz, 30 Lootas, 50 Stormboyz, 45 Kommandos, 20 Tankbustas, 15 Burna Boyz, and at least 40 Nobz.....I DO NOT WANT TO REBASE THESE.
mortar_crew wrote: I just noticed FW store does not have the (gigantic) squiggoth is the list at all now,
it looks like they axed it altogether?
Holy cow! Yeah, it's gone! And they never even put it on last chance... I really hope they do a plastic squiggoth... I've always wanted one but I can't be arsed to get the resin one. XD
mortar_crew wrote: I just noticed FW store does not have the (gigantic) squiggoth is the list at all now,
it looks like they axed it altogether?
They have not had it for years for sale at Forgeworld I have looked to buy it on there several times over the past years and I can say probably atleast 3 years give or take.
I swear they had it recently... I was looking into it like a few months ago and it was there.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Find it funny people argue Index options are obsolete but will defend their 25mm bases on Boyz...
So... You only support legacy options that benefit you Eh?
What happens if and when you add a new unit in?
Will you have some on 25s, some on 32s?
Will you downgrade any new kits on 32s with 25s?
Are you modeling for convenience, or modeling FOR ADVANTAGE?
I'm not rebasing, this is sort of by definition not "modelling for advantage" as there is zero modelling involved, if I was making any adjustment to the bases you could perhaps argue this, but since I'm not, I'm not "modelling" at all, I'm just using the same plastic space dollies I used last week, and the week before.
same as how my CSM are on a mix of bases, because they are on what they came with.
I may be rebasing some WHFB orks, these will get 25mm bases because I want them to fit in with the rest of the army, if someone wants to argue the toss on that thats up to them - I'd either avoid playing them or suggest a different point value and drop that unit
gungo wrote: I’m sure some day GW will come out with base extenders and then say you need to use current base measurements. However this isn’t something currently enforced by GW. It’s not even a huge issue in tournaments.
If they ever require rebasing I’ll just buy aftermarket base extenders and a little green stuff and it’s not a huge issue. I won’t be exacto knifing 100+ Boyz.
Base extenders, basing materials, paints and decorations for 250 orks will set you back about £150, not to mention all the extra work trying to make the extenders look like real bases.
Literally a 30 second search on ebay disproves that rubbish claim. It would take even a novice an afternoon with a pair of rattle cans to glue and paint with a quick dry brush. This is just buying new bases.
You argument is based on the assumption that you have to rebase boyz.
If boyz are still competetive in the new codex i suspect that a rebasing will be enforced by tournaments and casuals alike.
The KFF for example is 50% better (if my math is correct) with 25mm bases not to mention CC.
No the point of my post at all. Englishman hand-waved my entire argument as being based on assumptions and then went on a rant how boyz are nerfed based on another assumption.
But yes, you are probably right on all accounts. Still, the ork army as a whole might turn out to be more powerful even with nerfed boyz. I will not crying over "boyz before toyz" going the way of the dodo.
Nostromodamus wrote: “Correct” base is the one it comes with according to GW though, meaning no need to rebase. Not sure how you can “guarantee” GW event will make you measure, for example, 12” + 7mm.
Because they do in AoS. There is a document of correct base sizes and you are required to measure that way, which, as I have already said, is impossible in practice and so it is a disguised demand to rebase.
Oh my bad, I had no idea such a thing existed.
He's also not being remotely fair. AOS uses repacked fantasy models for more then half the line. You know, models that came on square bases. So he's pretty much by definition making his agument based around square pegs and round holes.
They tied to dodge the poor interaction by using the model itself for measuring. That failed miserably for obvious reasons so they went back to using the bases at which point they had to address the difference in base SHAPE. While doing this it would be silly not to recommend the preferred size.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean, being on a 32mm base is not entirely a disadvantage. Board control is one of the most important elements to 40k. Taking up more room around an objective makes things like boyz more annoying not less. Try getting to within 3" of the center of an objective with 30 t4 6++ defskulls sitting on it with those 32mm bases. Greentide definitely took a hit when it comes to maxing out boyz on the table, and this makes shoota boys that much better then they already were, but name me an edition where the pendulum doesn't swing away from what was previously good? It happens sure but more often then not things shift.
Yeah, if boyz turn out to be really good even on 32's I'm guessing some TOs might be putting restrictions on use of older bases. Lots of people sem to believe they're just getting nerfed though, I guess we'll see how it all pans out in the end.
At what time do we usually get the previews for pre orders? Is it just whenever GW feels like it or does it follow a schedule?
Yeah, BS4+ is straight better across the board. DDD plus RRall (Tankbusta's), or DDD plus BS4+ may close the distance in certain situations; but...
That said, I checked out Assault Dice - it seems to simplify this process, a LOT.
Add all your dice, roll initial results - pick up 1's and RR (other dice will shift space, but not change facing) - select everything that missed and move them to the cup; the total remaining at the bottom is the number of hits (or just add the top together) - move all hits except 6's to the cup - RR all 6's, RR1's, then add final total hits to previous number.
Typing it out it may seem a bit much; but in the app, it's Roll-Reroll-Cup-Count-Cup-Roll6's again-RR1's-add it all together. 8 steps, and much quicker then actually rolling the dice on the table, and hand sorting (at least in the case of Shoota Boyz 60 shots). That said, rolling buckets of dice is the reason you play Orks... but then again, re-rolling all the 1's, then 6's, then 1's again and counting it all up - it's a lot of work for a minor gain.
But I guess I shouldn't be complaining about any increase to our hits/final damages; Ork shooting needs it.
Hmm I think my way of doing it in Assault Dice is faster:
1- Roll to hit
2- Reroll the 1s
3- Select as many low dice (starting with 1s) as there are 6s and reroll them (these are the additional shots)
4- Reroll the 1s
5- Click on 4, 5 or 6, depending on if you needed 4s, 5s or 6s to hit
6- Roll to wound
There you have it.
The only thing to keep in mind: If you were really unlucky and there was still more 1s than 6s after rerolling the 1s, don't reroll ALL the 1s at step 4. Just those who came from the additional shots of step 3.
PiñaColada wrote: Yeah, if boyz turn out to be really good even on 32's I'm guessing some TOs might be putting restrictions on use of older bases. Lots of people sem to believe they're just getting nerfed though, I guess we'll see how it all pans out in the end.
At what time do we usually get the previews for pre orders? Is it just whenever GW feels like it or does it follow a schedule?
PiñaColada wrote: Yeah, if boyz turn out to be really good even on 32's I'm guessing some TOs might be putting restrictions on use of older bases. Lots of people sem to believe they're just getting nerfed though, I guess we'll see how it all pans out in the end.
At what time do we usually get the previews for pre orders? Is it just whenever GW feels like it or does it follow a schedule?
32mm is noticeably less effective for an assault army (e.g. 25mm allows four ranks etc)
TO are free to do whatever they want, those who may attend are free to decide on this basis as well
same as any player is free to decline to play orks on 25mm if they wish, or decline to paint models painted blue etc
still not re-basing, if GW release new orks on 32mm I'll build them on that, but the stuff thats on 25mm now is staying on it - if that means they get fewer games so be it, highly doubt it will be a problem round here.
keep in mind what TO say, even if they all agree (unlikely) doesn't matter to a lot of players
gungo wrote: I’m sure some day GW will come out with base extenders and then say you need to use current base measurements. However this isn’t something currently enforced by GW. It’s not even a huge issue in tournaments.
If they ever require rebasing I’ll just buy aftermarket base extenders and a little green stuff and it’s not a huge issue. I won’t be exacto knifing 100+ Boyz.
Base extenders, basing materials, paints and decorations for 250 orks will set you back about £150, not to mention all the extra work trying to make the extenders look like real bases.
Literally a 30 second search on ebay disproves that rubbish claim. It would take even a novice an afternoon with a pair of rattle cans to glue and paint with a quick dry brush. This is just buying new bases.
I have seen all of them and to be honest the result will look like gak. If you dont really care how your models look then why dont just use paper cut outs?
If that is the standard of basing you use i dont think you should go around giving advice to other people
Literally a 30 second search on ebay disproves that rubbish claim. It would take even a novice an afternoon with a pair of rattle cans to glue and paint with a quick dry brush. This is just buying new bases.
Though to me this attitude is completely unfair.. (Everyone having different abilities, time available and skill etc).
I will check out these and see.
Price isn’t the biggest factor to me so that’s not too much of an issue.
But anyone with more elaborate bases - that isn’t just and easy afternoon of basing.
Only for those with sand and drybrush, or perhaps a cracked earth or whatnot.
This was the same thing that put me off AoS rebasing. All the people in the forum were quite derogatory towards the basing issue, well several not all.
I agree with you on a lot Red Corsair in general, so no offense meant, just differing opinions..
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh also I thought the links were to base extenders which I assume he meant was what was pricey.
I just don’t have the time or heart to pull everything off.
I mean AoS I had horde armies. Then Orks for 40k.
My other armies - Necrons and Marines. Why do all mine get new bases..
Thankfully my Deathguard I hadn’t based any yet.
But my other issue was all my cases had slots designed for 25mm figures.
And I spent lots on my cases and foam, so don’t really want to be investing again.
(This will never be an issue in my gaming group or at the club I go to, so I don’t have to worry.
If I ever started tournament play then I’d see if and when enforced and such)
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Or maybe because rebasing 100+ models is a huge pain in the ass, and you could risk breaking them?
Cutting off the rim of the base, gluing it on top of 33 mm one, then (and that is really optional step) putting some glue and sand/flock around to match the old part is somehow problematic and risks breaking the mini? How?
And that is without considering various extenders that cost pennies and can be done even over a mountain of models in an afternoon...
Really, I don't get the issue. Defending old, ugly bases leaving parts of miniature hanging and looking bad in general (because, let's not kid ourselves, there is very little space to decorate 25 mm base with anything after gluing model as big as ork on it) only makes sense if A) you're modelling for advantage, or B) maybe (but even that is pretty dubious) if you have some fancy, special resin custom-made bases but again, let's not kid ourselves, the amount of ork armies sporting that can be counted on a fingers of drunk pigdok.
God I really wish Semper was in here to go through the maths with those who for some incredible reason believe that Boys won't be worse on 32s compared to their current bases.
Orks have never struggled with board control, take the insane idea that larger bases for Boys mean greater board control out of your minds. We have grots for board control.
How about the rumoured increase of a point? Does anyone believe that to be a buff?
I'm all for 'Boys before Toys' going away but making Boys a CP tax is not the way to do it.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Or maybe because rebasing 100+ models is a huge pain in the ass, and you could risk breaking them?
Cutting off the rim of the base, gluing it on top of 33 mm one, then (and that is really optional step) putting some glue and sand/flock around to match the old part is somehow problematic and risks breaking the mini? How?
And that is without considering various extenders that cost pennies and can be done even over a mountain of models in an afternoon...
Really, I don't get the issue. Defending old, ugly bases leaving parts of miniature hanging and looking bad in general (because, let's not kid ourselves, there is very little space to decorate 25 mm base with anything after gluing model as big as ork on it) only makes sense if A) you're modelling for advantage, or B) maybe (but even that is pretty dubious) if you have some fancy, special resin custom-made bases but again, let's not kid ourselves, the amount of ork armies sporting that can be counted on a fingers of drunk pigdok.
If you want to spend your day trimming bases for 100+ models, then all the power to you. Some of us actually have stuff to do though.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Or maybe because rebasing 100+ models is a huge pain in the ass, and you could risk breaking them?
Cutting off the rim of the base, gluing it on top of 33 mm one, then (and that is really optional step) putting some glue and sand/flock around to match the old part is somehow problematic and risks breaking the mini? How?
And that is without considering various extenders that cost pennies and can be done even over a mountain of models in an afternoon...
Really, I don't get the issue. Defending old, ugly bases leaving parts of miniature hanging and looking bad in general (because, let's not kid ourselves, there is very little space to decorate 25 mm base with anything after gluing model as big as ork on it) only makes sense if A) you're modelling for advantage, or B) maybe (but even that is pretty dubious) if you have some fancy, special resin custom-made bases but again, let's not kid ourselves, the amount of ork armies sporting that can be counted on a fingers of drunk pigdok.
If you want to spend your day trimming bases for 100+ models, then all the power to you. Some of us actually have stuff to do though.
I can't remember who suggested it but someone posted earlier the easiest way to rebase is to just stick the old base on a new and detail the new one + rim appropriately. It'll make your Boys taller than they should be on their step but I've never had a complaint about modelling for disadvantage...
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Or maybe because rebasing 100+ models is a huge pain in the ass, and you could risk breaking them?
Cutting off the rim of the base, gluing it on top of 33 mm one, then (and that is really optional step) putting some glue and sand/flock around to match the old part is somehow problematic and risks breaking the mini? How?
And that is without considering various extenders that cost pennies and can be done even over a mountain of models in an afternoon...
This is only true if you dont care much about the result or if your bases are pretty lousy to start with. How hard can it be to understand that?
Ah, Orks. We got actual video of the actual models but the discussion still is still continuing on about base sizes, all of which is pure speculation.
As to the models, now that I have seen both sides I can say the only one I don't like is the yellow one. Just too race care to me. If the rules are good I'll have to make some major changes to the model so it will look right. The others all work, though, and an army of them on the table - wow, that will be cool.
beerbeard wrote: Ah, Orks. We got actual video of the actual models but the discussion still is still continuing on about base sizes, all of which is pure speculation.
As to the models, now that I have seen both sides I can say the only one I don't like is the yellow one. Just too race care to me. If the rules are good I'll have to make some major changes to the model so it will look right. The others all work, though, and an army of them on the table - wow, that will be cool.
Amen, looking forward to making an Ork biker gang with buggies, trucks and bikes galore. Not all of the vehicles are to my tastes but plenty of scope for conversions etc... especially if the rules are nice!
I have seen all of them and to be honest the result will look like gak. If you dont really care how your models look then why dont just use paper cut outs?
If that is the standard of basing you use i dont think you should go around giving advice to other people
These ones are great though. Easy to use and once you're done, you can't tell them apart from a normal 32mm base. Not that I'd expect anyone to rebase for any other reason that they personally think the models look better that way.
beerbeard wrote: Ah, Orks. We got actual video of the actual models but the discussion still is still continuing on about base sizes, all of which is pure speculation.
As to the models, now that I have seen both sides I can say the only one I don't like is the yellow one. Just too race care to me. If the rules are good I'll have to make some major changes to the model so it will look right. The others all work, though, and an army of them on the table - wow, that will be cool.
It's not pure speculation, their promotional material is showing 32mm based Orks.
I have seen all of them and to be honest the result will look like gak. If you dont really care how your models look then why dont just use paper cut outs?
If that is the standard of basing you use i dont think you should go around giving advice to other people
These ones are great though. Easy to use and once you're done, you can't tell them apart from a normal 32mm base. Not that I'd expect anyone to rebase for any other reason that they personally think the models look better that way.
If i ever can bring myself to rebasing i will use those or just replace the whole base, the amount of work with texturing and painting should be the same.
beerbeard wrote: Ah, Orks. We got actual video of the actual models but the discussion still is still continuing on about base sizes, all of which is pure speculation.
As to the models, now that I have seen both sides I can say the only one I don't like is the yellow one. Just too race care to me. If the rules are good I'll have to make some major changes to the model so it will look right. The others all work, though, and an army of them on the table - wow, that will be cool.
We've kinda talked about the new models to death though? They all look incredible to me, even the Dragster. The only one I possibly won't get is the squig Buggy because I use red for my Squigs as well as my go fasta paint and I think it'll be too much red.
Is it just me or do the Orks look bigger than normal?
beerbeard wrote: Ah, Orks. We got actual video of the actual models but the discussion still is still continuing on about base sizes, all of which is pure speculation.
As to the models, now that I have seen both sides I can say the only one I don't like is the yellow one. Just too race care to me. If the rules are good I'll have to make some major changes to the model so it will look right. The others all work, though, and an army of them on the table - wow, that will be cool.
We've kinda talked about the new models to death though? They all look incredible to me, even the Dragster. The only one I possibly won't get is the squig Buggy because I use red for my Squigs as well as my go fasta paint and I think it'll be too much red.
Is it just me or do the Orks look bigger than normal?
Resists making a 32mm base joke I think it's because you're thinking the base is the big flyer one, I think it might be the second largest oval - Dragoon one, rather than the big tyranid monster one
"In the box, you’ll find the rules, tokens and templates you need to play, plus six Warbikes and two of the new Ork buggies, exclusive to this set." Do they usually use this definitive language when describing something that's a "timed exclusive", like the armigers in forgebane?
I'll buy the box either way but surely those buggies will drop as standalone boxes later on..?
Hmm, with pre-orders on the 20th, that would likely push codex pre-orders to the 27th, meaning our codex isn't actually coming out in October unless they decide to do something weird with the release schedules.
PiñaColada wrote: "In the box, you’ll find the rules, tokens and templates you need to play, plus six Warbikes and two of the new Ork buggies, exclusive to this set." Do they usually use this definitive language when describing something that's a "timed exclusive", like the armigers in forgebane?
I'll buy the box either way but surely those buggies will drop as standalone boxes later on..?
would be a large surprise if they are not sold individually later, seems a bit odd not to have the option to pay more per model to buy them individually - unless GW are concerned to a level people will think the box is expensive for the two buggies as either they have the bikes or think they will still be rubbish
beerbeard wrote: Ah, Orks. We got actual video of the actual models but the discussion still is still continuing on about base sizes, all of which is pure speculation.
As to the models, now that I have seen both sides I can say the only one I don't like is the yellow one. Just too race care to me. If the rules are good I'll have to make some major changes to the model so it will look right. The others all work, though, and an army of them on the table - wow, that will be cool.
We've kinda talked about the new models to death though? They all look incredible to me, even the Dragster. The only one I possibly won't get is the squig Buggy because I use red for my Squigs as well as my go fasta paint and I think it'll be too much red.
Is it just me or do the Orks look bigger than normal?
Resists making a 32mm base joke I think it's because you're thinking the base is the big flyer one, I think it might be the second largest oval - Dragoon one, rather than the big tyranid monster one
Aah perhaps. Thought they were on the same base the Orkanauts come with?
Can't wait to get my mitts on speed freeks and the other buggies.
GW said the base is the 120mm, so I think the same as the Gorkanaut.
Of course the only one I don't care for is in the box, but I'll buy it anyway. I don't have any bikes, and this is probably the cheapest way to get in to them. Just hope the rules are good. Can't wait to get my hands on this.
Hmm, with pre-orders on the 20th, that would likely push codex pre-orders to the 27th, meaning our codex isn't actually coming out in October unless they decide to do something weird with the release schedules.
Codex still octobbr rEleaase though( it's preorder date that counts
porkuslime wrote: Am wondering if I am the only Ork wanting to see up close and bigger photos of the terrain in SpeedFreeks..
an' know how many teef it will cost..
Part of me expects that scatter terrain to feature in another box in the not too distant future, possibly with the Mek Shop whatever that ends up as, though it does look very nice from the few pics I've seen I'm not sure its anything more than basic decoration in 40k, could be useful in KT though?
Hmm, with pre-orders on the 20th, that would likely push codex pre-orders to the 27th, meaning our codex isn't actually coming out in October unless they decide to do something weird with the release schedules.
All the codex details will be out in under 2 weeks, if not sooner. Most likely the official rules previews start next Sunday/Monday.
This thread needs less waaaaaa and more waaaaaaagh
PiñaColada wrote: "In the box, you’ll find the rules, tokens and templates you need to play, plus six Warbikes and two of the new Ork buggies, exclusive to this set." Do they usually use this definitive language when describing something that's a "timed exclusive", like the armigers in forgebane?
I'll buy the box either way but surely those buggies will drop as standalone boxes later on..?
would be a large surprise if they are not sold individually later, seems a bit odd not to have the option to pay more per model to buy them individually - unless GW are concerned to a level people will think the box is expensive for the two buggies as either they have the bikes or think they will still be rubbish
Sure, I assume we'll get standalone kits for them later as well. But some stuff, like the space marine captain in gravis armour is only available through one of these types of sets if I'm not mistaken..
I'm just sad that it seems like we'll have to wai another week for the codex, it really feels like we could've gotten both the same date. Maybe they're afraid that noone will look at the speed freeks game if the codex is out at the same time?
one captain model is slightly different to two larger vehicles, but this is GW so you never know.
though if those two buggies don't get a general release I can see them being dropped in the next codex revision.
Can wait for the codex here a few more weeks, though at this point my spend is likely limited to codex & cards, I want to see the rules before buying more models
beerbeard wrote: GW said the base is the 120mm, so I think the same as the Gorkanaut.
Of course the only one I don't care for is in the box, but I'll buy it anyway. I don't have any bikes, and this is probably the cheapest way to get in to them. Just hope the rules are good. Can't wait to get my hands on this.
Where did they say that?
Is Gorkanought the 120mm base? Judging from the range ruler in the speed freek set it's one of those - larger than the Dragoon but not the biggest (which is the Knight one I guess)
beerbeard wrote: GW said the base is the 120mm, so I think the same as the Gorkanaut.
Of course the only one I don't care for is in the box, but I'll buy it anyway. I don't have any bikes, and this is probably the cheapest way to get in to them. Just hope the rules are good. Can't wait to get my hands on this.
Where did they say that?
Is Gorkanought the 120mm base? Judging from the range ruler in the speed freek set it's one of those - larger than the Dragoon but not the biggest (which is the Knight one I guess)
Exclusive to this box? I already have 13 bikers and I don't like the dragsta, so if the buggies are really exclusive to the box, it means no Kustom Boomblasta for me
and probably cheaper than the non box set buggies even if it isn't by much especially if you grab on in week 1 before the sellers see how much the stand alone ones are going to be
I have seen all of them and to be honest the result will look like gak. If you dont really care how your models look then why dont just use paper cut outs?
If that is the standard of basing you use i dont think you should go around giving advice to other people
These ones are great though. Easy to use and once you're done, you can't tell them apart from a normal 32mm base. Not that I'd expect anyone to rebase for any other reason that they personally think the models look better that way.
I don't think I'll ever rebase my boys (I've already based my nobz and painboy on 32mm bases), but if I do one day, these adapters seem nice. If you're lazy, you can also keep them black, it doesn't look that bad!
Ashkayel wrote: Exclusive to this box? I already have 13 bikers and I don't like the dragsta, so if the buggies are really exclusive to the box, it means no Kustom Boomblasta for me
FAirly sure it\s just standard marketing speech to get people buy those boxes NOW as it costs more than the 2 vehicles would cost individually aka more profit to GW the more they sell this rather than separate ones individually.
