gr1m_dan wrote: The reflector shield thing seems a bit pointless - d6 S4 hits? Hmm...I guess it is a last ditch attempt at stopping the inevitable but hey ho.
I disagree, I mean, I'm being a bit presumptuous, but I think you could use it well, have some crisis suits with the reflector field, and flamers, and if possible attach a Crisis Commander with Vectored Retro Thrusters to give the squad hit and run, and use them as a rapid response team who follow the enemy's assault threats to make their initial charge as painful as possible only to jump away and leave them exposed.
gr1m_dan wrote: The reflector shield thing seems a bit pointless - d6 S4 hits? Hmm...I guess it is a last ditch attempt at stopping the inevitable but hey ho.
I disagree, I mean, I'm being a bit presumptuous, but I think you could use it well, have some crisis suits with the reflector field, and flamers, and if possible attach a Crisis Commander with Vectored Retro Thrusters to give the squad hit and run, and use them as a rapid response team who follow the enemy's assault threats to make their initial charge as painful as possible only to jump away and leave them exposed.
Exactly!!!!!! They have some potential for sure. Also in the BatRep they dont use any Ion weaponry.....so how many other little goodies did he not field in this list? Shadowsun, Longstrike, and a riptide cant be cheap pointswise.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh plus the multiple overwatch and stealths BS2 overwatch are pretty sweet. I wonder what the distance from "squad being assaulted" to the squad using supporting fire has to be? 6"? 12"? maybe 18"(in my dreams)?
gr1m_dan wrote: The reflector shield thing seems a bit pointless - d6 S4 hits? Hmm...I guess it is a last ditch attempt at stopping the inevitable but hey ho.
I disagree, I mean, I'm being a bit presumptuous, but I think you could use it well, have some crisis suits with the reflector field, and flamers, and if possible attach a Crisis Commander with Vectored Retro Thrusters to give the squad hit and run, and use them as a rapid response team who follow the enemy's assault threats to make their initial charge as painful as possible only to jump away and leave them exposed.
Exactly!!!!!! They have some potential for sure. Also in the BatRep they dont use any Ion weaponry.....so how many other little goodies did he not field in this list? Shadowsun, Longstrike, and a riptide cant be cheap pointswise.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh plus the multiple overwatch and stealths BS2 overwatch are pretty sweet. I wonder what the distance from "squad being assaulted" to the squad using supporting fire has to be? 6"? 12"? maybe 18"(in my dreams)?
MajorStoffer wrote: I don't buy the Hammerhead/Skyray kit being 60, when the Leman Russ already includes the bits for three/four variants, depending on which box you get, and is $50
The difference of course is that, the Leman Russ variants only change one very small feature on the tank the weapon barrel in the turret, the Skyray has a whole new turret including those big wings, don't get me wrong I'm not saying I like the new price point for it, but I can see why a Leman Russ's variant options aren't comparable to the Skyray sprue.
Riptide has 2+ armor standard. Stealths have stealth and shrouded still. And ALL battlesuits come equipped with BSF and multi-trackers. Basing this on a pic of a spread from the codex.
This may be somewhere in the thread, but I haven't seen it yet, picked up the new WD today and I am going back to my roots it seems, my first army 3 years ago was Tau and I sold them to build some Space Marines, with the new stuff I would like to try them out again.
So, my question is... does anyone know what color is being used for the Farsight Enclave suits and FW?
Brokksamson wrote: This may be somewhere in the thread, but I haven't seen it yet, picked up the new WD today and I am going back to my roots it seems, my first army 3 years ago was Tau and I sold them to build some Space Marines, with the new stuff I would like to try them out again.
So, my question is... does anyone know what color is being used for the Farsight Enclave suits and FW?
You know the tyranid player didnt try very hard when he was building his list i feel. Shouldnt a tyranid player vastly outnumber the Tau? I mean come on lol
He did have 7 troops choice, one that could make more. All of them could also return to the board if they died. And he didn't need any scoring units as his whole mission was to kill the tau army.
Brokksamson wrote: hahahha, well I know it's red, sorry I should have clarified... does anyone know what the Citadel color is?
The armour in the Farsight pic looks a deeper red than Blood Angels, so perhaps a basecoat of Khorne Red was used. However, it could be Mephiston Red with shading and just edge highlighting.
Dakkadood wrote: I'm so anxious to know what Farsight does this time around, love the character and may start a new army (sold my Orky guard a few years ago), and would love to do renegade/survivor Tau + Kroot Hybrids with Farsight or so.
In the previous Codexes, Farsight didn't have access to Kroot or Vespid as he is not part of the Empire. Regardless, he is indeed a great direction for a Tau army. I wonder if he'll be prohibited from using Ork allies as they have been his main foe.
Yes I know he forced some serious limitations, but I was thinking of working around them via an allied Force (more Tau!), but I can always run Ork (new codex soon too) and use Kroot-Ork conversions for extra fluffyness (Hybrid Krootorks).
Dakkadood wrote: Yes I know he forced some serious limitations, but I was thinking of working around them via an allied Force (more Tau!), but I can always run Ork (new codex soon too) and use Kroot-Ork conversions for extra fluffyness (Hybrid Krootorks).
So wait, your solution to "Farsight traditionally hasn't fought with Kroot" is to ally Farsight with Orks? And you use the word fluffy to in any way describe that?
Very good points about the Crisis with Flamers / Hit and Run. I didn't think about using other wargear/weapons in conjunction. the D6 S4 hits could be very useful against armies with poor armour saves (5/6+) who feel like assaulting us.
In regards to Pathfinders being a 5+ save - If you aren't fielding them in some sort of 4+ cover (i.e a building if at hand) then you shouldn't have them on the board!! Maybe they have Stealth or access to some sort of drone to grant a better save? Maybe it is still worth taking a Devilfish? Either way I am very excited about these fellas :-D Always loved Pathfinders
Hey so um...Anyone else notice that the Army pics never include more than 2 Broadsides on the board. Or the line in the WD where it says IIRC "Two of these make a great backbone to any Tau army." Could they be SOLO units? Are Broadside teams out and these in as like a dreadnought single Heavy FOC slot choice? Almost makes sense considering their new size and all that. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. What do you think?
I would like to point out that in this image of the WD battleforce there is a squad of XV15s and no XV25s. This definitely suggests that they are in the codex, if not confirms. The question is where?
And they are listed as elites in the battle report.
With all the new riptides competing with crisis slots and stealth teams, unless we get a special rule allowing us to have more than 3 elite choices we won't see stealth suits used very often i predict.
Then again they could be dirt-cheap and have great cover saves, so maybe i'm wrong.
i read somewhere that they said people wanted smaller stealth suits and thats why they went back to the old ones, which is ironic, because people complained the original model was too small for a battle suit! Its ok, because i have a ton of old and new suits, now i can use that to differentiate squads
Lobukia wrote: Looked around quite a bit, does anyone know the profile of the ML that replace the Broadside railguns?
No, i don't know.
Going by what i've read in the WD, and rumors from warseer, I *think* it is a high yield missile pod system. S7 AP4, 4 shots, twin-linked. Most likely 36 or 48" range.
I'd like to see XV15 and XV25's having different statlines, points, or rules. It would be nice to have some rules variations for the two very different looking sculpts.
Lobukia wrote: Looked around quite a bit, does anyone know the profile of the ML that replace the Broadside railguns?
No, i don't know.
Going by what i've read in the WD, and rumors from warseer, I *think* it is a high yield missile pod system. S7 AP4, 4 shots, twin-linked. Most likely 36 or 48" range.
So itll be a harder to kill rifleman dread? Not too shabby
Lobukia wrote: Looked around quite a bit, does anyone know the profile of the ML that replace the Broadside railguns?
No, i don't know.
Going by what i've read in the WD, and rumors from warseer, I *think* it is a high yield missile pod system. S7 AP4, 4 shots, twin-linked. Most likely 36 or 48" range.
So itll be a harder to kill rifleman dread? Not too shabby
Plus a secondary weapons system, either an SMS (currently s5 ap5 4 shots) or twin linked plasma rifle. So within 24", the fire power will possibly double with the MMM broadside suit.
Lobukia wrote: Looked around quite a bit, does anyone know the profile of the ML that replace the Broadside railguns?
No, i don't know.
Going by what i've read in the WD, and rumors from warseer, I *think* it is a high yield missile pod system. S7 AP4, 4 shots, twin-linked. Most likely 36 or 48" range.
So itll be a harder to kill rifleman dread? Not too shabby
Plus a secondary weapons system, either an SMS (currently s5 ap5 4 shots) or twin linked plasma rifle. So within 24", the fire power will possibly double with the MMM broadside suit.
And with skyfire i assume, looks like fliers will be taking a major hit come saturday
Plus a secondary weapons system, either an SMS (currently s5 ap5 4 shots) or twin linked plasma rifle. So within 24", the fire power will possibly double with the MMM broadside suit.
Also noteworthy is that they will still be able to get the Skyfire option with the Missiles presumably, allowing a twin-linked high yield missile system to outclass a ~170 point 4 Flakk Devastator/Havoc squad off the bat, before factoring in other things such as secondary weapon systems.
You won't have the versatility of Krak and Frag, but still, pretty good for a model rumoured to come in at under 100 points.
All good points. I'm thinking maybe somewhere in the codex for maybe more than the old one there will be places where the FOC slot allows you to take 'X' number of teams of 'X' unit like the Sniper Teams did. Which By the way I haven't heard mention of.
I really wished they would do more standard, even-sided missions with these new army releases. The Tau just seemed to be overly dominate in the WD battle report, but it also seemed like the points values might have been uneven, and of course, the odd mission and inclusion of Deathwatch marines just threw it off even more.
On a different note, did anybody think it odd that they included Deathwatch led by an inquisitor with no real explanation. Makes me wonder if this isn't a hint of the oft-rumored Allies book.
ClassicCarraway wrote: I really wished they would do more standard, even-sided missions with these new army releases. The Tau just seemed to be overly dominate in the WD battle report, but it also seemed like the points values might have been uneven, and of course, the odd mission and inclusion of Deathwatch marines just threw it off even more.
On a different note, did anybody think it odd that they included Deathwatch led by an inquisitor with no real explanation. Makes me wonder if this isn't a hint of the oft-rumored Allies book.
deathwatch would make alot of sense for an allies book. Throw in some weird stuff like neutral eldar and kroot and you could find yourself an interesting group to play with!
Lobukia wrote: Looked around quite a bit, does anyone know the profile of the ML that replace the Broadside railguns?
No, i don't know.
Going by what i've read in the WD, and rumors from warseer, I *think* it is a high yield missile pod system. S7 AP4, 4 shots, twin-linked. Most likely 36 or 48" range.
If that is true... then the reign of the heldrake may be over
Lobukia wrote: Looked around quite a bit, does anyone know the profile of the ML that replace the Broadside railguns?
No, i don't know.
Going by what i've read in the WD, and rumors from warseer, I *think* it is a high yield missile pod system. S7 AP4, 4 shots, twin-linked. Most likely 36 or 48" range.
If that is true... then the reign of the heldrake may be over
8/9 hit, 1/3 do anything, 2/3 get through the invul. 16/81 results per shot. Not likely to scare a drake.
Standard loadouts for HH and Skyray it seems. skyray might just come with the skyfire upgrade built in
Automatically Appended Next Post: Although i do want to point out that the "shootiest army in the galaxay" still has bs3.....but i guess between markerlights and other equipment we dont REALLY need bs4....do we?
Wolfnid420 wrote: Standard loadouts for HH and Skyray it seems. skyray might just come with the skyfire upgrade built in
Automatically Appended Next Post: Although i do want to point out that the "shootiest army in the galaxay" still has bs3.....but i guess between markerlights and other equipment we dont REALLY need bs4....do we?
Rumormill has it that the Fireblade gives an extra shot to his squad, like FRFSRF, so combined with markerlights expect some extreme shooting shenanigans
@Wolfnid420: No we really don't need to be BS4. That would be obscene when standard foot have 5/5/RF guns. If we hit it it should wound at the least. And besides, if it weren't for Markerlights to make us function like a shooty army, Tau really would be boring to play. If were going to WASTE you at range at least make it kinda fun right?
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW there is a Pulse Pistol on the back of the Pathfinder sergeant! YAY! No more modding extra carbines into pistols
KnuckleWolf wrote: @Wolfnid420: No we really don't need to be BS4. That would be obscene when standard foot have 5/5/RF guns. If we hit it it should wound at the least. And besides, if it weren't for Markerlights to make us function like a shooty army, Tau really would be boring to play. If were going to WASTE you at range at least make it kinda fun right?
Good call. I'm kinda hoping that we get Aun'Shi back. I keep seeing him everywhere and i really liked his fluff. Even if hes not the best on the board.
Lobukia wrote: Looked around quite a bit, does anyone know the profile of the ML that replace the Broadside railguns?
No, i don't know.
Going by what i've read in the WD, and rumors from warseer, I *think* it is a high yield missile pod system. S7 AP4, 4 shots, twin-linked. Most likely 36 or 48" range.
If that is true... then the reign of the heldrake may be over
8/9 hit, 1/3 do anything, 2/3 get through the invul. 16/81 results per shot. Not likely to scare a drake.
with 3 in a unit thats 12 shots... and what points were they talking 70-80 a model..... so for say 210 points you massively out do ANY other armies AAA fire, also if thats the case i might have to find a way to put 3 broadsides into my CSM lists, because as a sqaud they will be the BEST AA in the game?
i presume the SMS WONT get skyfire and it will be limited to the main weapons - or that would be a total joke....
Wolfnid420 wrote: Standard loadouts for HH and Skyray it seems. skyray might just come with the skyfire upgrade built in
Automatically Appended Next Post: Although i do want to point out that the "shootiest army in the galaxay" still has bs3.....but i guess between markerlights and other equipment we dont REALLY need bs4....do we?
Rumormill has it that the Fireblade gives an extra shot to his squad, like FRFSRF, so combined with markerlights expect some extreme shooting shenanigans
Was confirmed, one of the itty bitty pages in the white dwarf shows the fireblade's special rule stating that if he and his squad don't move their rifles and carbines can fire one extra shot.
Broadsides are definitely one to watch as potential game changers. Realistically if they can take optional Skyfire flyers will be greatly curtailed-- I'd go so far as to say it would be the death of most flyer-based lists.
If everyone starts taking broadsides as allies every game to shoot down fliers then hopefully it sets off a chain reaction.
Everyone uses sides as allies to take out fliers
Everyone stops wasting points on fliers
Everyone gets over the "shiny new broadsides" and goes back to building better lists lol
Wolfnid420 wrote: If everyone starts taking broadsides as allies every game to shoot down fliers then hopefully it sets off a chain reaction.
Everyone uses sides as allies to take out fliers
Everyone stops wasting points on fliers
Everyone gets over the "shiny new broadsides" and goes back to building better lists lol
And a heap of second hand broads show up on e-bay for cheap
wouldnt count too highly on that... if people are clever they will mag them and just go back to rail guns with the ole JSJ on them.... or whatever silliness.......
ausYenLoWang wrote: wouldnt count too highly on that... if people are clever they will mag them and just go back to rail guns with the ole JSJ on them.... or whatever silliness.......
This is always the part of a new release that I hate..the last minute pessimism that always erupts jut before we get the actual facts and news, myself I am happy to have new models that for the most look pretty cool, and actually pried my wallet open, a new codex to sink my teeth into, and hopefully some new forgeworld goodies down the road, so before the sky falls in lets try and have some positive waves, man.
Its just I am happy that the Tau codex has been updated, and not shelved as many people would have wished, a new chance to expand the range, and add some more options to the army, see you all on the 6th!
Lobukia wrote: Looked around quite a bit, does anyone know the profile of the ML that replace the Broadside railguns?
No, i don't know.
Going by what i've read in the WD, and rumors from warseer, I *think* it is a high yield missile pod system. S7 AP4, 4 shots, twin-linked. Most likely 36 or 48" range.
If that is true... then the reign of the heldrake may be over
8/9 hit, 1/3 do anything, 2/3 get through the invul. 16/81 results per shot. Not likely to scare a drake.
with 3 in a unit thats 12 shots... and what points were they talking 70-80 a model..... so for say 210 points you massively out do ANY other armies AAA fire, also if thats the case i might have to find a way to put 3 broadsides into my CSM lists, because as a sqaud they will be the BEST AA in the game?
i presume the SMS WONT get skyfire and it will be limited to the main weapons - or that would be a total joke....
as always happy to be corrected...
Things we need to know in order to assess their full potential:
A. Whether the Velocity Tracker takes a hardpoint(Likely.)
B. Whether the VT applies to secondary weapons as well.
C. Whether every suit in the squad needs a VT. (Likely)
D. Whether drones attached to a squad gain the Skyfire attribute from the broadside having both a VT and a hardwired drone controller.
D1. The BS of missile drones
D2. Whether a squad can still use the marker from their own marker drone.
E. Whether a hardwired velocity tracker exists as an option for Cadre Fire Blades.
F. Whether markerlights can be spent to cancel jink saves.(Likely)
ausYenLoWang wrote: wouldnt count too highly on that... if people are clever they will mag them and just go back to rail guns with the ole JSJ on them.... or whatever silliness.......
No JSJ on Broads...just hiding behind ADLs.
ok there is part of this im missing then, they are jetpack equipped now for extra movement etc.. whats the key component of JSJ that they dont have? and behind the aegis? they are larger now too
MajorStoffer wrote: I don't buy the Hammerhead/Skyray kit being 60, when the Leman Russ already includes the bits for three/four variants, depending on which box you get, and is $50, Farsight is frightfully priced for a finecast customized crisis suit, same for the generic commander, and the Riptide, oh my. When we already have the dreadknight (awful aesthetic aside) with a ton of weapon options and detail, at the same general size, why is the Riptide $30 more?
Dreadknight is about 4-4.5 inches tall, and arms and legs are not really poseable. The Riptide is closer to 5.5-6 inches tall (compare it to it's base), legs are in enough parts you can make it kneel with no conversion work, and arms are more poseable than the Dreadknight or even crisis suits. Plus it comes with 2 drones.
Hammerhead/Skyray is just new new tank price point (SM tanks like the Predator have gone up to 57.50) IG have just not caught up yet. Probably in June.
ausYenLoWang wrote: wouldnt count too highly on that... if people are clever they will mag them and just go back to rail guns with the ole JSJ on them.... or whatever silliness.......
No JSJ on Broads...just hiding behind ADLs.
ok there is part of this im missing then, they are jetpack equipped now for extra movement etc.. whats the key component of JSJ that they dont have? and behind the aegis? they are larger now too
They have NO jetpack. thats why they cant JSJ. All other suits have a jetpack. The Sides have a power pack to explain the power of the heavy rail gun. no extra rules from it though because there was no mention of overcharging the broadsides lol
ausYenLoWang wrote: wouldnt count too highly on that... if people are clever they will mag them and just go back to rail guns with the ole JSJ on them.... or whatever silliness.......
No JSJ on Broads...just hiding behind ADLs.
ok there is part of this im missing then, they are jetpack equipped now for extra movement etc.. whats the key component of JSJ that they dont have? and behind the aegis? they are larger now too
its been a while since ive picked up my tau codex...but they are not jetpack equipped.
When you put together your broadside there are panels that you place over the nozzles of the jet pack to sort of turn it in to a capacitor for the railguns.
So its not a jetpack. though granted it was the same model used as the XV8 with a few extra metal bits.
They move normally.
If they take ASS then they can move and shoot but they cant jump back when their finished business....at least...if they can ive been doing it wrong.
MajorStoffer wrote: I don't buy the Hammerhead/Skyray kit being 60, when the Leman Russ already includes the bits for three/four variants, depending on which box you get, and is $50, Farsight is frightfully priced for a finecast customized crisis suit, same for the generic commander, and the Riptide, oh my. When we already have the dreadknight (awful aesthetic aside) with a ton of weapon options and detail, at the same general size, why is the Riptide $30 more?
Dreadknight is about 4-4.5 inches tall, and arms and legs are not really poseable. The Riptide is closer to 5.5-6 inches tall (compare it to it's base), legs are in enough parts you can make it kneel with no conversion work, and arms are more poseable than the Dreadknight or even crisis suits. Plus it comes with 2 drones.
Hammerhead/Skyray is just new new tank price point (SM tanks like the Predator have gone up to 57.50) IG have just not caught up yet. Probably in June.
Dreadknight is 6-6.5" tall, and the Riptide is supposedly somewhere around 8.5-9", it's only supposed be couple inches shorter than a Warhound Titan.
ausYenLoWang wrote: wouldnt count too highly on that... if people are clever they will mag them and just go back to rail guns with the ole JSJ on them.... or whatever silliness.......
No JSJ on Broads...just hiding behind ADLs.
ok there is part of this im missing then, they are jetpack equipped now for extra movement etc.. whats the key component of JSJ that they dont have? and behind the aegis? they are larger now too
They have NO jetpack. thats why they cant JSJ. All other suits have a jetpack. The Sides have a power pack to explain the power of the heavy rail gun. no extra rules from it though because there was no mention of overcharging the broadsides lol
ok my bad its the riptide that got the jetpack, wrong thing from memory in the white dwarf..
ausYenLoWang wrote: wouldnt count too highly on that... if people are clever they will mag them and just go back to rail guns with the ole JSJ on them.... or whatever silliness.......
No JSJ on Broads...just hiding behind ADLs.
ok there is part of this im missing then, they are jetpack equipped now for extra movement etc.. whats the key component of JSJ that they dont have? and behind the aegis? they are larger now too
They have NO jetpack. thats why they cant JSJ. All other suits have a jetpack. The Sides have a power pack to explain the power of the heavy rail gun. no extra rules from it though because there was no mention of overcharging the broadsides lol
ok my bad its the riptide that got the jetpack, wrong thing from memory in the white dwarf..
yeah, i picture the riptide as a super mega crisis suit basically because it seems to function the exact same just beefed up in all aspects.
So the Riptide is the size of the old Horus Heresy Knights from the Mechanicum book eh. . . OHHHHH conversions. . . Stupid $85 model that is likely t go up in june. . . stupid thing. . .
Regardless. For all those out that that say that the Tau have nothing going for them I call BS! I have seen full Tau lists that combined with good to great play knock the socks off regional qualifiers for some tournaments I have seen. The most annoying part is that they do it not just once in a while but near damn all the time.
The game may have different rules for each army but you are still on a board with terrain, random as hell dice (at least I hope so. . . heate cheaters. . . ). In a game like this Tactics are just as important as a list.
Lysenis wrote: So the Riptide is the size of the old Horus Heresy Knights from the Mechanicum book eh. . . OHHHHH conversions. . . Stupid $85 model that is likely t go up in june. . . stupid thing. . .
Regardless. For all those out that that say that the Tau have nothing going for them I call BS! I have seen full Tau lists that combined with good to great play knock the socks off regional qualifiers for some tournaments I have seen. The most annoying part is that they do it not just once in a while but near damn all the time.
The game may have different rules for each army but you are still on a board with terrain, random as hell dice (at least I hope so. . . heate cheaters. . . ). In a game like this Tactics are just as important as a list.
agreed.....wait..what? not to get off topic but are you telling me that people are actually using loaded dice in a hobby game?
Does no one else think this just makes the thing look like a toy?
Dude, it is a toy. You play with dolls; deal with it.
Meaningless sweeping generalisations ftw, except there is Hell Pit Abomination that I actualy have to hide from my kids, there is Hive Tyrant that they seem scared of and there is Tau flyer or Crisis suits that look like 3+ space robots series you buy here on cheap souvenirs market near the sealine when on holiday. Those look extremly childish, more than stuff they're based on like Macross Gundam not to mention Evangelion and it's only conotations with 40k that put them near more adult sf territory, deal with it.
Lysenis wrote: So the Riptide is the size of the old Horus Heresy Knights from the Mechanicum book eh. . . OHHHHH conversions. . . Stupid $85 model that is likely t go up in june. . . stupid thing. . .
Regardless. For all those out that that say that the Tau have nothing going for them I call BS! I have seen full Tau lists that combined with good to great play knock the socks off regional qualifiers for some tournaments I have seen. The most annoying part is that they do it not just once in a while but near damn all the time.
The game may have different rules for each army but you are still on a board with terrain, random as hell dice (at least I hope so. . . heate cheaters. . . ). In a game like this Tactics are just as important as a list.
agreed.....wait..what? not to get off topic but are you telling me that people are actually using loaded dice in a hobby game?
There is an article i have read that could do with linking for this.... apparently chessex etc dice with rounded edges are MORE likely to roll 1's than 6's.... the only legit dice are the casino dice... be afraid....
There is an article i have read that could do with linking for this.... apparently chessex etc dice with rounded edges are MORE likely to roll 1's than 6's.... the only legit dice are the casino dice... be afraid....
There is an article i have read that could do with linking for this.... apparently chessex etc dice with rounded edges are MORE likely to roll 1's than 6's.... the only legit dice are the casino dice... be afraid....
There is an article i have read that could do with linking for this.... apparently chessex etc dice with rounded edges are MORE likely to roll 1's than 6's.... the only legit dice are the casino dice... be afraid....
Lysenis wrote: So the Riptide is the size of the old Horus Heresy Knights from the Mechanicum book eh. . . OHHHHH conversions. . . Stupid $85 model that is likely t go up in june. . . stupid thing. . .
Regardless. For all those out that that say that the Tau have nothing going for them I call BS! I have seen full Tau lists that combined with good to great play knock the socks off regional qualifiers for some tournaments I have seen. The most annoying part is that they do it not just once in a while but near damn all the time.
The game may have different rules for each army but you are still on a board with terrain, random as hell dice (at least I hope so. . . heate cheaters. . . ). In a game like this Tactics are just as important as a list.
agreed.....wait..what? not to get off topic but are you telling me that people are actually using loaded dice in a hobby game?
There is an article i have read that could do with linking for this.... apparently chessex etc dice with rounded edges are MORE likely to roll 1's than 6's.... the only legit dice are the casino dice... be afraid....
just found that, damn good read...thank you for that
getting back on topic im just going to come out and say it...I am loving this release so far
yes...even the flyer...im super excited to see the codex so i can get some orders in.
Lysenis wrote: So the Riptide is the size of the old Horus Heresy Knights from the Mechanicum book eh. . . OHHHHH conversions. . . Stupid $85 model that is likely t go up in june. . . stupid thing. . .
Regardless. For all those out that that say that the Tau have nothing going for them I call BS! I have seen full Tau lists that combined with good to great play knock the socks off regional qualifiers for some tournaments I have seen. The most annoying part is that they do it not just once in a while but near damn all the time.
The game may have different rules for each army but you are still on a board with terrain, random as hell dice (at least I hope so. . . heate cheaters. . . ). In a game like this Tactics are just as important as a list.
agreed.....wait..what? not to get off topic but are you telling me that people are actually using loaded dice in a hobby game?
There is an article i have read that could do with linking for this.... apparently chessex etc dice with rounded edges are MORE likely to roll 1's than 6's.... the only legit dice are the casino dice... be afraid....
just found that, damn good read...thank you for that
getting back on topic im just going to come out and say it...I am loving this release so far
yes...even the flyer...im super excited to see the codex so i can get some orders in.
Edit: forgot to include my thanks
all good champ i roll chessex as we all know chaos doesnt care one way or the other, sorry for OT
Am I the only one who loves the flyer? It's kinda a cross between this:
and a pirhana, as if it's a skimmer with modifications rather than a plane. It looks very tau-ish, while still looking extremely fast. The weaponry's also great, with plenty there but mostly hidden away, and not simply bristling with too many guns like an ork or imperial flyer. And I like how it looks like it was designed to work well, not look elegant like an eldar craft or be far too heavy like a marine weapons box.
Ok, it's not the best model there, but it's still definitely more good than bad.
p_gray99 wrote: Am I the only one who loves the flyer? It's kinda a cross between this:
and a pirhana, as if it's a skimmer with modifications rather than a plane. It looks very tau-ish, while still looking extremely fast. The weaponry's also great, with plenty there but mostly hidden away, and not simply bristling with too many guns like an ork or imperial flyer. And I like how it looks like it was designed to work well, not look elegant like an eldar craft or be far too heavy like a marine weapons box.
Ok, it's not the best model there, but it's still definitely more good than bad.
not alone mate
I also love the flyer, it looks small, nimble...and oh lord please let us have some VD on this.
It's no coincidence that the flyer looks like an up-sized piranha/devilfish combo with wings, that was apparently exactly what they were going for according to the White Dwarf. So if you're not a fan, it sounds like Colin Grayson is the man to blame, lol.
Matt's idea was apparently something like a manta ray: broad in front with a stinger in the back. I dunno though, it just sounds like a much better look for a ground vehicle than a flyer.
Kroothawk wrote:The limited edition Codex is now sold out, after a bit more than a day.
Not really surprised. They don't print many copies to begin with and most people probably buy them up because they think they can make a profit listing them on eBay immediately after.
Jadenim wrote:Anyone else notice that the cockpit is actually a separate piece, so it's a doddle to convert it to an UAV.
It's still way too big for a UAV though, isn't it? Technically the drones mounted in its wings are UAVs themselves. Maybe it would look better without the cockpit, I don't know, but I still wish they would have just converted the barracuda into plastic.
Also, a couple of the painted models in the White Dwarf looked interesting to me. Instead of the very simple lines that the studio usually paints for sept stripes, there are a couple of infantry models that have much more complex designs painted on them in the sept colors. I think one fire warrior had them covering half his helmet and most of his gun. Almost reminded me of tribal tattos.
as i was watching that video my wife walked in the room and saw the riptide standing beside a pathfinder or FW just said; your going to buy that right? , i replied with a nervous yes as she is usually hesitant to let me buy toys. or at least gives me a hard time over it.
she replies : good, it looks like it can kick some ass.
she can get very competitive when watching me play warhammer...
Kroothawk wrote:The limited edition Codex is now sold out, after a bit more than a day.
Not really surprised. They don't print many copies to begin with and most people probably buy them up because they think they can make a profit listing them on eBay immediately after.
If you want to buy the LE Codex for cheaper than eBay, its still available on the Australian GW store.
Looks like Sa'cea colours, with a D'yanoi sept symbol on the right arm, all a bit peculiar, I mean, I guess Tau aren't always 100% consistent with what they wear to war, it's not a Space Marine's livery, but you would think all the little line markings would at least be in the Sept colour?
Hopefully it's not just a total fail by the artists.
The Sunshark/Razorshark seems like it is made so that the quad ion turret uses the same ion gun barrel pieces as the interceptor drones. This might make it more difficult for anyone considering to make one model changeable between the two...
Trasvi wrote: The Sunshark/Razorshark seems like it is made so that the quad ion turret uses the same ion gun barrel pieces as the interceptor drones. This might make it more difficult for anyone considering to make one model changeable between the two...
oh jeez....if that's true it really sucks!
I was really hoping to mod it in such a way of being interchangeable....
maybe with creative use of magnets? or gundam joints? or something?....
Im psyched for this release... gonna drop a bunch of cash on it.
I don't care about any negativity..im certain it will be a balanced codex.
my only worry is... what toughness are drones and if its less than 4 will that make my suits (esp the riptide) pathetic due to the majority toughness rule?
Oaka wrote: @ 1:05, I'm glad to see that GW is just as bad at putting on decals as I am!
2:50 - Tau Pathfinder Team intro
2:56 - Shots of Firewarrior using pathfinder arms, with a fully fledged Firewarrior in the background.
It's cool that the kits work together, but this feels a bit misleading.
Speaking of misleading, the Shadowsun Firestrike Hunter Cadre shows some relatively extensive conversion work done to make the battlesuit arms and legs poseable.
For Longstrike's rules, I imagine there'll be no shaken or stunned, possibly a + to BS, but what else is there to add? I can't think of any other rules they could give him TBH.
Shield Drones have the T value of the model theyre with, and even if they were to change, the answer is as simple as not to bring them to the table with the Riptide in first place. Thats common sense :/ and to be precise, the new Missile shield drones are probably totally different kind of drones that were used to. AFAIK we have now the following drones configuration: Sniper Drone, Combat Drone, Command drone, Shield Drone, Marker drone (I hope they make this one real cheap 30 points for a single ML with BS2 its insanely awful), Shield Missile Drone, Anti-Grav Drone, Repulsor Drone, Pulse Charge Drone and the big one with the pathfinders.
Also, please Sniper drones, be nice this edition D: i love them and i would like to buy a bunch and bring them to the table sometimes...
p_gray99 wrote: For Longstrike's rules, I imagine there'll be no shaken or stunned, possibly a + to BS, but what else is there to add? I can't think of any other rules they could give him TBH.
well for a IC in a tank i suppose Tank Hunter would be suitable or even Preffered Enemy
spacewolf407 wrote: To those that picked up the latest White Dwarf, how is the overall content?
As worthless as always. There's a gimmicky battle report with tons of weird rules and no actual insight into how the army functions, a bunch of big print about how awesome the new models are, and a bunch of pictures of them that are also on the website. At least Jervis isn't directly insulting a huge chunk of the playerbase this month. Oh, and the digital version came out late and loaded with bugs and errors and had to be patched TWICE yesterday alone.
I would have to agree...if you want tau info then just stare at the website pictures.. the battle report tells you literally NOTHING about the army (either army for that matter) and the rest of the mag is the same.
Superawesomeraptorman at war seer really hit home on the codex. Kroot are no longer for CQC but become like kabalite warriors without their special weapons (once you get sniper upgrades) andfire warriors are terrible now but 9pts per model
wait.. fire warriors are terrible? they are exactly the same..
they have lost a bit of range I guess.. but I wouldn't say that was terrible.. I would assume that is to bring them in line with 6th edition being able to move and fire.. maybe gw thought 36'' str 5 was a bit too good? but that's just conjecture on my part.
anyway saving 12 points on a full squad is fine by me... that's more points for blasty death/ablative drone wounds.
I quite liked the tau being able to outrange their opponents, but it rarely made much difference and the pulse accelerator drone thing (that's supposed to give them +6" range) would probably only cost 10pts anyway, plus is an ablative wound.
Well, it seems like we'll be able to pull some better firepower at a better range, but with less max range. Using an ethereal + pulse accelerator drone (I think) gives us constant FRFSRF but at 18 inches.
its not a major nerf... 5th ed you couldn't move and fire 30''
6th ed comes along and now you have a potential 36''
a reduced range still gives you 30'' if you include your move.
now factor in the pulse accelerator (granted we don't know its rules) giving you an extra 6''.. that's 30'' standing and 42'' moving (if you include your move)
I think it is a major nerf.... the best thing that happened to Tau in 6th edition was the change for rapid fire range from 12" to half range (ie, 15"). This means that we can rapid fire at an enemy while being outside of average charge range distance from the enemy. Combined with move+fire at full range, it has made Firewarriors into a mjaor offensive part of my army.
IF they got ranged nerf yeah it hurts bad. REAL bad. A good setup and fighting withdraw should keep any Marines away till turn three while taking out a fair chunk of 'em. Which again if done right and all goes well gives your units a pocket to keep withdrawing into to buy you yet one more turn. At almost every game I've been able to avoid CC till turn four or five if they ever make it for the whole game. Barring of course Drop Pod or Dark Angel Terminator Drops. Which I still have a chance of dealing with. And saying we have a 36 inch range is just raw stats, not necessarily application. It's not like I'm eager to move forward till late game for objectives as I'd rather stay in my cover. So most of the time we're just 30" range. And say your in a high point value Dawn of War deployment. Where the hell are you going to go? There's only 36" between their deployment zone and your table edge and from the center you can hit anywhere almost with base line 30". Yes the rapid fire range at 15" was odd but whatever. We are a ranged focus army with BS3. Range augmented us. Now the new drone could give that back, then ablate a wound when late game comes and range is less of an issue, but y'know, as Shakespeare said IIRC "The PLAY is the thing!" We're just going to have to get some games with it. But my Spiral of death strategy could be gone here.
Lysenis wrote: So the Riptide is the size of the old Horus Heresy Knights from the Mechanicum book eh. . . OHHHHH conversions. . . Stupid $85 model that is likely t go up in june. . . stupid thing. . .
Regardless. For all those out that that say that the Tau have nothing going for them I call BS! I have seen full Tau lists that combined with good to great play knock the socks off regional qualifiers for some tournaments I have seen. The most annoying part is that they do it not just once in a while but near damn all the time.
The game may have different rules for each army but you are still on a board with terrain, random as hell dice (at least I hope so. . . heate cheaters. . . ). In a game like this Tactics are just as important as a list.
agreed.....wait..what? not to get off topic but are you telling me that people are actually using loaded dice in a hobby game?
I have caught people doing that. Or the other basic cheats that people know. Moving models, adding to reserves, etc.
Lysenis wrote: So the Riptide is the size of the old Horus Heresy Knights from the Mechanicum book eh. . . OHHHHH conversions. . . Stupid $85 model that is likely t go up in june. . . stupid thing. . .
Regardless. For all those out that that say that the Tau have nothing going for them I call BS! I have seen full Tau lists that combined with good to great play knock the socks off regional qualifiers for some tournaments I have seen. The most annoying part is that they do it not just once in a while but near damn all the time.
The game may have different rules for each army but you are still on a board with terrain, random as hell dice (at least I hope so. . . heate cheaters. . . ). In a game like this Tactics are just as important as a list.
agreed.....wait..what? not to get off topic but are you telling me that people are actually using loaded dice in a hobby game?
There is an article i have read that could do with linking for this.... apparently chessex etc dice with rounded edges are MORE likely to roll 1's than 6's.... the only legit dice are the casino dice... be afraid....
Percision dice are also perfect. I also do not agree with the Chessex article. I have used chessex dice my entire carrier (normal sized dice) and my rolls of 1's were average of the other rolls. It all comes down to batches though.
KnuckleWolf wrote: IF they got ranged nerf yeah it hurts bad. REAL bad. A good setup and fighting withdraw should keep any Marines away till turn three while taking out a fair chunk of 'em. Which again if done right and all goes well gives your units a pocket to keep withdrawing into to buy you yet one more turn. At almost every game I've been able to avoid CC till turn four or five if they ever make it for the whole game. Barring of course Drop Pod or Dark Angel Terminator Drops. Which I still have a chance of dealing with. And saying we have a 36 inch range is just raw stats, not necessarily application. It's not like I'm eager to move forward till late game for objectives as I'd rather stay in my cover. So most of the time we're just 30" range. And say your in a high point value Dawn of War deployment. Where the hell are you going to go? There's only 36" between their deployment zone and your table edge and from the center you can hit anywhere almost with base line 30". Yes the rapid fire range at 15" was odd but whatever. We are a ranged focus army with BS3. Range augmented us. Now the new drone could give that back, then ablate a wound when late game comes and range is less of an issue, but y'know, as Shakespeare said IIRC "The PLAY is the thing!" We're just going to have to get some games with it. But my Spiral of death strategy could be gone here.
Edited for stuff
From my understanding this Nerf comes into place beacuse of the new ability to grant an extra 6" on all attack rolls so when that 24" gets cut down to 12" on the Rapid Fire it gets the boost to 18"
KnuckleWolf wrote: IF they got ranged nerf yeah it hurts bad. REAL bad. A good setup and fighting withdraw should keep any Marines away till turn three while taking out a fair chunk of 'em. Which again if done right and all goes well gives your units a pocket to keep withdrawing into to buy you yet one more turn. At almost every game I've been able to avoid CC till turn four or five if they ever make it for the whole game. Barring of course Drop Pod or Dark Angel Terminator Drops. Which I still have a chance of dealing with. And saying we have a 36 inch range is just raw stats, not necessarily application. It's not like I'm eager to move forward till late game for objectives as I'd rather stay in my cover. So most of the time we're just 30" range. And say your in a high point value Dawn of War deployment. Where the hell are you going to go? There's only 36" between their deployment zone and your table edge and from the center you can hit anywhere almost with base line 30". Yes the rapid fire range at 15" was odd but whatever. We are a ranged focus army with BS3. Range augmented us. Now the new drone could give that back, then ablate a wound when late game comes and range is less of an issue, but y'know, as Shakespeare said IIRC "The PLAY is the thing!" We're just going to have to get some games with it. But my Spiral of death strategy could be gone here.
Edited for stuff
From my understanding this Nerf comes into place beacuse of the new ability to grant an extra 6" on all attack rolls so when that 24" gets cut down to 12" on the Rapid Fire it gets the boost to 18"
Remember, in this thread any buff is actually a nerf and the sky is falling.
If firewarriors and Hammerheads got a range nerf, that pretty much kills the whole thing for me. Guess I will have to wait until the actual codex comes out.
im noticing the trend this edition is synergy! so that all the new armies are using 1+1=3. This makes sense, and even better it makes us play more tactical. Yes your untis may seem like they are nerferd, or maybe they are less OP in one way or another, but now your opponent will be more like "arrgh, i gotta kill that drone" as apposed to just trying to wipe the squad. This gives you the advantage because hes thinking of things in terms a of a single unit or model instead of the big picture! personally like it. Now it does make your unit more vulnerable in that that item of synergy is easier to remove, but it will also force you to play more tactically.
as for any 'nerfs'... what are you gonna do? accept it and get on with it or throw your models and rage quit? you cannot change the codex.
if the pulse rifle loses range then im just gonna roll with it... assault 2 pulse carbines 18'' plus pulse accelerator for an extra 6''.... now instead of two shots at 15'' (current rifles) I get 2 shots at 24'' (3 with a fireblade!!) nerf? I don't think so
boy wonder wrote: its not a major nerf... 5th ed you couldn't move and fire 30''
6th ed comes along and now you have a potential 36''
a reduced range still gives you 30'' if you include your move.
now factor in the pulse accelerator (granted we don't know its rules) giving you an extra 6''.. that's 30'' standing and 42'' moving (if you include your move)
It is a fairly big nerf compared to all the other armies who had range 24-inch Rapid Fire weapons and didn't get it reduced.
A 10% drop in points cost is partial compensation, but Fire Warriors were probably 1 point too expensive at 10 points with a 30-inch weapon. The special drone adds 6 inches, which is nice, but it will cost points and loses you an FW from the squad and cannot fire, so... well... I am not convinced. But of course we should wait for the actual codex.
This all sounds like a lame ploy to make us swap out rifles for carbines on all our FW models. On the tail of cutting down on bit sales, this certainly is that "synergy" you guys are talking about.
Lobukia wrote: This all sounds like a lame ploy to make us swap out rifles for carbines on all our FW models. On the tail of cutting down on bit sales, this certainly is that "synergy" you guys are talking about.
It worked out great for GW with the current Ork codex. Slugga boyz were the must have before and that switched 180* to shoota boys with the current codex.
Lobukia wrote: This all sounds like a lame ploy to make us swap out rifles for carbines on all our FW models. On the tail of cutting down on bit sales, this certainly is that "synergy" you guys are talking about.
if this is in relation to my earlier post...yes that did run through my mind.... luckily I only use superglue and don't throw out my spare sprues so I can quite easily change the weapons. of course we should wait for the rules to drop... we could be all talking utter nonsense.
Like I said I really need to sit down and see them work on a table. The range+ drone is real weird. I'm just glad All my Firewarrior teams were split down the middle on carbine/rifles. Just more of my fluff stuff.
Wait...So if you have the range+ drone, The guy who grants an extra shot, in a squad of firewarriors with carbines...Move 6" Mark the target twice with lights, Fire Carbines from twelve dudes=36 BS5 S5 Ap5 shots at 24"?
I don't understand the logic here.
FW are terribad now and the ONLY defense anyone has been able to give them is the 30" range S5 gun. Now they want to drop it down to 24" and people are trying to justify that?! Bolters couldn't move and fire 24" before, but they didn't go down to 18" range to balance it out.
I'm sorry, but this codex looks like a complete bust to me. Every good army has a good troop choice to make the back bone of the army. Most armies get to modify the FOC so they can take paladins, bikes, Plaguemarines, whatever up to 6 times to make their army strong. What troops will Tau have that can honestly survive in shooting? They made it so you can't assault them, but why bother. They're too weak and too limited in number to stand up to enemy fire.
Are suits still BS3? I think that will honestly be the breaking point for me. I really can't stand paying insane points for BS3 elite special weapons that rely on a flimsy FA unit to bring them UP TO STANDARD. That's not synergy. That is a crutch and a load of bull. Darkshrouds that give a buff to biker hordes with Jink saves is synergy. Making a shooting army the standard level for shooting across the board is silly.
you don't get the extra shot if you move... but 3 shots each is nice. im not gonna say no to 36 shots from my 12 firewarriors.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Savageconvoy wrote: I don't understand the logic here.
FW are terribad now and the ONLY defense anyone has been able to give them is the 30" range S5 gun. Now they want to drop it down to 24" and people are trying to justify that?! Bolters couldn't move and fire 24" before, but they didn't go down to 18" range to balance it out.
I'm sorry, but this codex looks like a complete bust to me. Every good army has a good troop choice to make the back bone of the army. Most armies get to modify the FOC so they can take paladins, bikes, Plaguemarines, whatever up to 6 times to make their army strong. What troops will Tau have that can honestly survive in shooting? They made it so you can't assault them, but why bother. They're too weak and too limited in number to stand up to enemy fire.
Are suits still BS3? I think that will honestly be the breaking point for me. I really can't stand paying insane points for BS3 elite special weapons that rely on a flimsy FA unit to bring them UP TO STANDARD. That's not synergy. That is a crutch and a load of bull. Darkshrouds that give a buff to biker hordes with Jink saves is synergy. Making a shooting army the standard level for shooting across the board is silly.
then its time to hang up your hooves im afraid.
or you could wait until the codex is actually out perhaps? and aren't you currently a tau player? why aren't you super mad at your current bs3 suits?... losing stats I can understand the frustration, but stats not changing.. OUTRAGEOUS!
calm down man. whatever is going to happen will happen.. you cant do jack about it. if it truly upsets you that much maybe you shouldn't be playing them.. it is supposed to be fun.
Im seeing a lot of angst here, having played Tau since they first came out I only see positives here. Anyone thats butthurt about something like a 6" loss in range of a pulse rifle doesnt really know how to play Tau IMO. Is it unfortunate? Yes. Are Firewarriors still one of the best troops choices in game? Yes.
BTW, I didnt see it listed but what slot do cadre fireblades fill?
chaos0xomega wrote: Im seeing a lot of angst here, having played Tau since they first came out I only see positives here. Anyone thats butthurt about something like a 6" loss in range of a pulse rifle doesnt really know how to play Tau IMO. Is it unfortunate? Yes. Are Firewarriors still one of the best troops choices in game? Yes.
BTW, I didnt see it listed but what slot do cadre fireblades fill?
HQ.
But I think the main problems people are having are with the rules not fitting the fluff, rather than the rules changing. Nobody minds if the rules change if it fits the fluff and doesn't ruin the game, but it just doesn't make sense for Crisis suits to be BS 3.
chaos0xomega wrote: Im seeing a lot of angst here, having played Tau since they first came out I only see positives here. Anyone thats butthurt about something like a 6" loss in range of a pulse rifle doesnt really know how to play Tau IMO. Is it unfortunate? Yes. Are Firewarriors still one of the best troops choices in game? Yes.
If the rumors that they are 9 points a pop is true while retaining BS3 24" Str5 AP5 with 4+ save, then yes. They definitely are still one of the best troop choices in the game.
BTW, I didnt see it listed but what slot do cadre fireblades fill?
According to Gamesworkshop's updated Tau Armies product page on their website, we can assume Fireblade and Darkstrider are HQ choices. If they were unique character upgrades, they would be listed as such.
I just hope that they you can take multiples as one HQ choice... I have an itching for a short range rain of death with carbines.. imagine the supporting overwatch...
Just spent $3 on 36 carbines. If its not a good buy, I'm out $3, if they are the new weapon of choice, I'm sure my 52 fire warriors are glad they're not worthless. I bought mist of my fire warriors assembled so I don't have FW bits around like I do with suits and such.
yeah im one of those players im afraid... I simply make a list that resonates with me.. and the idea (although not the models) of the fireblades appeal to me.
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Lobukia wrote: Just spent $3 on 36 carbines. If its not a good buy, I'm out $3, if they are the new weapon of choice, I'm sure my 52 fire warriors are glad they're not worthless. I bought mist of my fire warriors assembled so I don't have FW bits around like I do with suits and such.
$3 isn't anything really..and it could pay off. if the rules are what we have heard they will be my weapon of choice FW wise.
I just placed an order for 1 codex, 2 Sun Shark Bombers, 1 Pathfiner Team, and 1 Riptide Battlesuit. I may order 36 more Fire Warriors on top of the 36 I already own. I hope the new models and rules don't disappoint me.
i bet the Fireblades may be like Haemonculus or Ministorum Priests where you can take 1-3 in a single HQ choice. Which, when weighed just like a Haemy, is a similar value in that you are boosting a basic squad hes attached to, and that boosted squad becomes a cornerstone to several other squads in an advance.
yeah im one of those players im afraid... I simply make a list that resonates with me.. and the idea (although not the models) of the fireblades appeal to me.
That is truly a great way to play 40K (not sarcastic) but in all seriousness if you aren't adhering to 100% of the rules that the codex is balanced to then you don't have a good perspective to discuss proper costing and balancing changes.
New Firewarriors have gotten weaker and in order to retain their current offensive firepower you must pay MORE points than their current costs. Pulse Rifles in general sound like a waste of time now and it seems that carbines will be the way to go. Also, it may be back to skeleton units of FW hiding in Devilfish again as the army will not have that strong troops backbone that it so sorely requires.
Making it possible to invest in Firewarriors to make them serviceable is not an acceptable alternative to having them not be garbage to start.
Jadenim wrote: I've reread the battle report and I cannot see this bit where it talks about 24" range?
Same here.
I'll give it another read just in case though.
For those bitchin about a drop in range, we got an extra shot per guy if stationary. Combined with Markerlights this is going to be very dangerous. Fire Warriors have become the ultimate glass cannon... so what if they are fragile, look at the amount of effective firepower you can poor into a unit.
I for one don't mind if there is a range nerf, our guns getting more shots has made up for that imo.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So are we back to Fish Of Fury?
Puscifer wrote: For those bitchin about a drop in range, we got an extra shot per guy if stationary. Combined with Markerlights this is going to be very dangerous. Fire Warriors have become the ultimate glass cannon... so what if they are fragile, look at the amount of effective firepower you can poor into a unit.
We didn't "get" that extra shot, we can pay a whole bunch of points for it with only a 1 point reduction on Firewarriors to compensate. It seems like without that upgrade character they are even worse than before but with him they get +1 shot while static and they have his markerlight to make them actually hit something because herp derp BS3. Add in the 6" range boost drone and now you have some scary firepower but at great cost. Methinks we are seeing the same design philosophy GW used for WHFB Empire applied to the Tau; rubbish core troops that can become great if you invest a load of points into them through support characters and upgrades. This would be fine if they weren't literally the only troop choice in the game that requires such forced synergy to function.
As for Fish of Fury, I think that is still dead due to the new Firewarriors having no increased effectiveness without the upgrade character that gives them that +1 shot while static; you would be sending your Firewarriors to their deaths just like if you did Fish of Fury right now.
yeah im one of those players im afraid... I simply make a list that resonates with me.. and the idea (although not the models) of the fireblades appeal to me.
That is truly a great way to play 40K (not sarcastic) but in all seriousness if you aren't adhering to 100% of the rules that the codex is balanced to then you don't have a good perspective to discuss proper costing and balancing changes.
New Firewarriors have gotten weaker and in order to retain their current offensive firepower you must pay MORE points than their current costs. Pulse Rifles in general sound like a waste of time now and it seems that carbines will be the way to go. Also, it may be back to skeleton units of FW hiding in Devilfish again as the army will not have that strong troops backbone that it so sorely requires.
Making it possible to invest in Firewarriors to make them serviceable is not an acceptable alternative to having them not be garbage to start.
i adhere 100% to the rules... and im fully aware of costing and balance.
and i don't think they are garbage.... look at an eldar guardian in relation. i think that for 9 points (supposed) a bs3, 4+ save and str 5 assault 2/rapid fire gun isn't too bad.
The 24" rumor comes from daredeviltan posted in another thread. He claims he's seen the codex already and mentions the range nerf. He also pointed out the Aun'va turns AP of enemy weapons into a saving throw, which is questionalbe considering it's impossible to have a 1+ save. For all we know, all the rumors from daredeviltan could be a bad April's Fool joke.
Puscifer wrote: For those bitchin about a drop in range, we got an extra shot per guy if stationary. Combined with Markerlights this is going to be very dangerous. Fire Warriors have become the ultimate glass cannon... so what if they are fragile, look at the amount of effective firepower you can poor into a unit.
We didn't "get" that extra shot, we can pay a whole bunch of points for it with only a 1 point reduction on Firewarriors to compensate. It seems like without that upgrade character they are even worse than before but with him they get +1 shot while static and they have his markerlight to make them actually hit something because herp derp BS3. Add in the 6" range boost drone and now you have some scary firepower but at great cost. Methinks we are seeing the same design philosophy GW used for WHFB Empire applied to the Tau; rubbish core troops that can become great if you invest a load of points into them through support characters and upgrades. This would be fine if they weren't literally the only troop choice in the game that requires such forced synergy to function.
As for Fish of Fury, I think that is still dead due to the new Firewarriors having no increased effectiveness without the upgrade character that gives them that +1 shot while static; you would be sending your Firewarriors to their deaths just like if you did Fish of Fury right now.
Where is this range drone everyone is raving about?
Also, I have to agree with a lot of the points made, but I can see Fireblades becoming auto takes if you want to field anymore than two Firewarrior squads.
Where is this range drone everyone is raving about?
According to the item description:
The one with the four prongs is the Pulse Accelerator Drone and the one with the orb is the Gravity Inhibitor Drone.
boy wonder wrote: and i don't think they are garbage.... look at an eldar guardian in relation. i think that for 9 points (supposed) a bs3, 4+ save and str 5 assault 2/rapid fire gun isn't too bad.
That is because Eldar Guardians are woefully obsolete rubbish units. The only reason it isn't such a massive problem (though it is still a problem) is because the Dire Avengers are there to be a solid troop choice.
If there was a better version of Firewarriors available as troops then Firewarriors being underwhelming wouldn't be a problem. When a game requires troops for a number of things a codex needs a solid troops choice to be a foundation of your army. Some books deal with this through FOC shenanigans and some books just have great troops choices. The concern with this Tau update is that Firewarriors as rumored do not fit the bill and there are no reports of compensating through FOC tricks.
Puscifer wrote: One of those gives extra range within a bubble?
Hmmmm...
If it is a bubble then that is a significant step in the right direction.
Davor wrote: So at 5:23 of the video, I saw some Tau in all white. I guess they are an HQ choice on a chariot or something like that?
They aren't new, it's Aun'Va down the back riding his pope-mobile and then down the front is Shadowsun.
I don't think Aun-Va will get chariot rules because it would really mess with his body guards.
boy wonder wrote: and i don't think they are garbage.... look at an eldar guardian in relation. i think that for 9 points (supposed) a bs3, 4+ save and str 5 assault 2/rapid fire gun isn't too bad.
You can make anything look cheap by comparing to the Eldar codex, it's horribly out of date.
Considering the same fellow claims the AP dictates the Invulnerable save of the special character isn't believable. So...Lasguns are death incarnate???
Uh huh.
Seems similar to the Daemons Great Unclean One rumor about the ap or strength determining a better FnP...? The one that was fabricated, anyway, before Codex release.
Considering the same fellow claims the AP dictates the Invulnerable save of the special character isn't believable. So...Lasguns are death incarnate???
Considering the same fellow claims the AP dictates the Invulnerable save of the special character isn't believable. So...Lasguns are death incarnate???
The_Dude wrote:
Apparently Aun'Va's signature wargear item is an invulnerable save based on the weapons AP value. i.e against a Lascannon he has a 2++ But against a Bolter He gets a 5++. Also, wounds from AP1 weapons are ignored altogether.
He got several bits of information correct before we saw the confirmation in the WD. I cannot find anything solid on the range change though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Puscifer wrote: One of those gives extra range within a bubble?
Hmmmm...
I guess it will only affect the accompanying pathfinders; no bubble, no FWs.
We must be careful comparing things, or rather, getting to invested in such comparisons before we have the book in hand - and can contextually see everything.
I have to say, that I was not very happy with the new flyer's appearance, but it has grown on me a bit, and with the new vids and views on the GW site, I am indeed quite happy with it.
I would have loved a barracuda (and still might, depending on everything) but that is another thread....
On another note, in looking closely at the flyer spure, it does indeed look like there are only 4 ion weapons in there, which means building both the drones and the fighter turret may be problematic...
Of course, I might just put extra pathfinder rail rifles on the drones, we shall see what we can come up with.
Question: any one have a information on what the range is for a burst cannon in the new dex from a SOLID SOURCE?
chaos0xomega wrote: Im seeing a lot of angst here, having played Tau since they first came out I only see positives here. Anyone thats butthurt about something like a 6" loss in range of a pulse rifle doesnt really know how to play Tau IMO. Is it unfortunate? Yes. Are Firewarriors still one of the best troops choices in game? Yes.
If the rumors that they are 9 points a pop is true while retaining BS3 24" Str5 AP5 with 4+ save, then yes. They definitely are still one of the best troop choices in the game.
Sure they are, as soon as marines cost 20 points per model, orcs cost 8 points, and Dire Avengers cost 15 points. The Only thing Fire warriors have going for them is the better gun, and the barely understood supporting fire rule(which I don't think will allow them to fire more than 1 overwatch usage in an assault phase).
A good comparison at 9 points is the Kabalite Warriors. Who hit more often, have a comparable weapon(it is better in some areas and worse in others), better LD, worse armor, faster, better WS, fleet, PFP, and Night vision for free. With the attainable Fearless, and FNP the Kabalites are better than a FW hands down.
chaos0xomega wrote: Im seeing a lot of angst here, having played Tau since they first came out I only see positives here. Anyone thats butthurt about something like a 6" loss in range of a pulse rifle doesnt really know how to play Tau IMO. Is it unfortunate? Yes. Are Firewarriors still one of the best troops choices in game? Yes.
If the rumors that they are 9 points a pop is true while retaining BS3 24" Str5 AP5 with 4+ save, then yes. They definitely are still one of the best troop choices in the game.
Sure they are, as soon as marines cost 20 points per model, orcs cost 8 points, and Dire Avengers cost 15 points. The Only thing Fire warriors have going for them is the better gun, and the barely understood supporting fire rule(which I don't think will allow them to fire more than 1 overwatch usage in an assault phase).
A good comparison at 9 points is the Kabalite Warriors. Who hit more often, have a comparable weapon(it is better in some areas and worse in others), better LD, worse armor, faster, better WS, fleet, PFP, and Night vision for free. With the attainable Fearless, and FNP the Kabalites are better than a FW hands down.
If everything in the Tau army operated in a vacuum, I think they would be a good comparison.
Unfortunately we do not have all the information in hand yet. But considering that the Tau have always been presented as a synergy infused army I do not think it would be too far of a stretch to think such a thing is going to happen again.
I guess it will only affect the accompanying pathfinders; no bubble, no FWs.
Assuming that with the proliferation of new drones, Fire warriors cannot take any of them. Just because the models are in the pathfinder kit does not mean that those drones are limited to pathfinders- look at Marker Drones and Shield drones in the previous book.
Question: any one have a information on what the range is for a burst cannon in the new dex from a SOLID SOURCE?
thanks,
I can't give my source on this one, but I've been told that the Burst Cannon is 18" and the Heavy Burst Cannon is 36".
Suits and Piranha get the Burst Cannon whereas everything else is the Heavy Burst Cannon.
My source was a credible supplier of info for the Dark Angel Codex just before 6th came out, so I am ready to believe them.
If this is true, than its very sad indeed. Now, I know others may disagree, and perhaps there are some play styles for others that work for them, but in my experience as successful tau player (played them consistently throughout 5th - never shelved them, even at tournaments) I have found the burst cannon to be of very low value. 18" range, especially now with increased charge distances is ..um..not very useful. Even a storm bolter is 24".
I will try and wait and see how the stealth suits work out, but unless there are some other VERY significant changes to them, my xv15 and xv25's may not see a lot of play.
thanks for the update.
As far as the firewarrior rumors....well, I hope they don't come with photon grenades and have only 24" pulse rifles ....thats ...ugly.
The option for either photon or emp, now that, that would be good...but again, we should know in a week.
If it is a bubble then that is a significant step in the right direction.
I really hope they are not bubble effect, in fact I hope there are no bubble effect rules or wargear in the codex at all. I think they are annoying to play and poor, unimaginative game design.
If everything in the Tau army operated in a vacuum, I think they would be a good comparison.
Unfortunately we do not have all the information in hand yet. But considering that the Tau have always been presented as a synergy infused army I do not think it would be too far of a stretch to think such a thing is going to happen again.
If everything in any army operated in a vacuum. Add in other units with those Kabalites, and the Fire Warriors look even worse. There is always the waiting, but The rumor of 9 points, with no change(or reducing the range by 6", and adding photon grenades) and a rule that lets them use up their overwatch to help another unit, does not bode well for the cost. Fire Warriors are currently outclassed in everything except their weapon, and that is rumored to get worse. Synergy is meant to make things better, not to bring it to the standard. There is the rumor of a drone that increases the range by 6", we don't know the cost but I can almost guarantee that is will be more than 12 points(which would bring them to the same range/cost as now).
I'm really hoping to see a change in the burst cannon. It's supposed to be our version of the heavy bolter, but its almost worse than the standard weapons in just about every way and is almost a waste on crisis suits.
hotsauceman1 wrote: If the vespid rumor of having a 4+ save si true im going to have to find a way get around the hideous wings.
I too could not stand the stock wings on those things - I replaced mine with some insect wings (dragonfly I think) that i found online, and have seen a few other conversions out there as well.
I like the models overall, and hope that the new vespid are decent.
I like the current burst cannon, but it would be nice if it gained one shot or 6" range, either one would be okay by me. As is, it is a tad bit underwhelming. Differentiating between suit and vehicle variants would also be great.
as i was watching that video my wife walked in the room and saw the riptide standing beside a pathfinder or FW just said; your going to buy that right? , i replied with a nervous yes as she is usually hesitant to let me buy toys. or at least gives me a hard time over it.
she replies : good, it looks like it can kick some ass.
she can get very competitive when watching me play warhammer...
Gotta love it when the Wifey gives you permission to kick ass!
yeah im one of those players im afraid... I simply make a list that resonates with me.. and the idea (although not the models) of the fireblades appeal to me.
That is truly a great way to play 40K (not sarcastic) but in all seriousness if you aren't adhering to 100% of the rules that the codex is balanced to then you don't have a good perspective to discuss proper costing and balancing changes.
New Firewarriors have gotten weaker and in order to retain their current offensive firepower you must pay MORE points than their current costs. Pulse Rifles in general sound like a waste of time now and it seems that carbines will be the way to go. Also, it may be back to skeleton units of FW hiding in Devilfish again as the army will not have that strong troops backbone that it so sorely requires.
Making it possible to invest in Firewarriors to make them serviceable is not an acceptable alternative to having them not be garbage to start.
You guys are assuming that FWs will still be allowed to take Pulse Carbines.
Amusing...
davethepak wrote: As far as the firewarrior rumors....well, I hope they don't come with photon grenades and have only 24" pulse rifles ....thats ...ugly.
On page 25 of the White Dwarf, if you squint just right, you'll see on the Firewarrior page from the codex that they have Combat Armor, Pulse Rifle, and Photon Grenades.
I don't see why people are so interested in them getting grenades. With their statline they are so terrible in combat that they will still end up losing combat by enough to fail morale checks.
And realistically overwatch is the only chance FW will get to wound in the assault phase. Which makes sense I guess. Gives them the ability to do some damage while still making them terrible in close combat.
davethepak wrote: As far as the firewarrior rumors....well, I hope they don't come with photon grenades and have only 24" pulse rifles ....thats ...ugly.
On page 25 of the White Dwarf, if you squint just right, you'll see on the Firewarrior page from the codex that they have Combat Armor, Pulse Rifle, and Photon Grenades.
:(
Oh well. I don't mind free grenades, I just want the flexibility of when to take them.
(for those who would ask why, its because a speedbump (as opposed to a unit of 12 objective holders) unit of 6 firewarriors is SUPPOSED to not live through being charged, that way you can shoot what charged them on your turn - you don't want them to live through the charge, because they will then be killed you IN your turn...). Sigh....
However, perhaps photon grenades no longer do what they did? Maybe the new rules will bring some hope.....either that, or gw needs to expand play testing to maybe some people who actually play tau....
ANY word on if emp grenades at least will get the haywire treatment?
Savageconvoy wrote: I don't see why people are so interested in them getting grenades. With their statline they are so terrible in combat that they will still end up losing combat by enough to fail morale checks.
And realistically overwatch is the only chance FW will get to wound in the assault phase. Which makes sense I guess. Gives them the ability to do some damage while still making them terrible in close combat.
Exactly - you DON"T want defensive grenades with their statline - because they might survive the first assault only to die in your turn.
Savageconvoy wrote: I don't see why people are so interested in them getting grenades. With their statline they are so terrible in combat that they will still end up losing combat by enough to fail morale checks.
And realistically overwatch is the only chance FW will get to wound in the assault phase. Which makes sense I guess. Gives them the ability to do some damage while still making them terrible in close combat.
Exactly - you DON"T want defensive grenades with their statline - because they might survive the first assault only to die in your turn.
Which, is bad..
When a unit Goes to Ground, it can still fire Overwatch, but can't use defensive grenades. So if you're certain a charge will succeed, go to ground right after the enemy fires their pistols.
I have the new White Dwarf and can confirm the following:
Rules: -"Recon Armor" is a 5+ save.
- Kroot and Vespid are still in the game-- there is also an entry for "Kroot Armor," providing a 6+. From the description it sounds like all Kroot likely have it, but this is not clear.
-Stealth Suits are still Elites and Shadowsun does not make them Troops as rumored earlier
-Pathfinders are Fast Attack.
-Submunition rounds are listed in the army list entry for the Hammerhead and may be an upgrade.
-Units appear to be able to take drones without a Drone Controller-- each of the four Fire Warrior squads in the battle report is listed as having a Gun Drone despite no controller, while one Pathfinder squad has a Recon Drone and one has a Grav-Inhibitor Drone without a controller. Both Broadside teams also have Marker Drones without a Drone Controller for them.
-The failsafe detonator option is still in the game and is seen on a Bodyguard suit in the battle report, though it is not used.
-The Hive Tyrant is mentioned as "failing to glance" the Sun Shark when it Vector Strikes it, implying the Sun Shark has AV12 side armor. However, its two sets of twin-linked devourers inflict a Crew Stunned result on the Sun Shark later in the battle report, indicating that the Sun Shark's rear armor is weaker. The Interceptor Drones from the Sun Shark look to be mounted on very very high flying stands once detached, so it is not clear what exactly they count as.
-Shadowsun can fire at two separate targets in the Shooting phase-- on one turn she shoots a Tervigon with one shot and a Carnifex with another.
-Gun Drone units are still in the game, as are Sniper Drones.
-The overall theme for the army is that they are supposed to be focused entirely on the use of ranged weapons, but still have enough mobility to move to better positions or avoid risks.
Fluff -Farsight is still a rebel, the Dawn Blade is still an alien artifact, and Farsight has still lived for a mysteriously long time.
-Commander Shadowsun is now supposed to be the "focal character of the Tau Empire," with Aun'Va leading the Empire spiritually and Shadowsun leading it on the battlefield.
-The fluff is overall still considered optimistic, with sinister or dark elements present only as undertones.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Archonate wrote: You guys are assuming that FWs will still be allowed to take Pulse Carbines.
Amusing...
The bestiary entry for Fire Warriors shown in White Dwarf says that Fire Warriors can be equipped with either Pulse Rifles or Pulse Carbines, so it looks like no worries there. Besides, I doubt GW would take an option like that away from the army, especially since the pulse carbines are physically present on Fire Warrior sprues...
I love these people posting every page now with the 'stuff they can confirm from the WD" that like, 50 people before them have already confirmed from the WD
Roleplayer wrote: I love these people posting every page now with the 'stuff they can confirm from the WD" that like, 50 people before them have already confirmed from the WD
how many people are going to read through all of the pages? Also if you look at eash post, not everyone hasposted the same level of depth of information. They usually post what they think was important to them. Kingsley has (imho) out done himself once again.
The bestiary entry for Fire Warriors shown in White Dwarf says that Fire Warriors can be equipped with either Pulse Rifles or Pulse Carbines, so it looks like no worries there. Besides, I doubt GW would take an option like that away from the army, especially since the pulse carbines are physically present on Fire Warrior sprues...
They most likely are interchangeable, but if PRs truly are 24" range then there is no reason to take them over PCs. Which is one reason I don't believe the range rumor. The other reason is that a change that huge would not be overlooked by the reliable rumormongers.
If PRs are 30", then I think PCs will be a competitive alternative, depending on whether you want a stationary gun line, or a mobile guerrilla unit.
Then there's the question of whether FWs can even take those new drones...
Burst Cannons might be good, if Crisis and Stealth suit teams can take the Pulse accelerator Drone.
A reduction is pulse rifle range would suck, no arguing otherwise. GW could be trying to make players buy new models for the carbines but not sure if this method would work.
Problem is that by the current "rumours" the drones and HQ's are going to make FW teams more expensive than they are now for a very limited improvement that also sacrifices mobility. I just don't think that the idea of spending more points to for what seems to be a lateral improvement will get tau players to switch to new carbine equipped models .
Really, more points than the current overcosted units should equal a readily identifiable increase in performance. But hey, these are just rumours so it is all just speculation.
As to other speculation,
The description of Commander Farsight (WD, Page 85 of the Battlesuits article) sounds like he may still have a gimped FOC.
A good rumor side to the Burst Cannon rumour is that it sounds like the D-fish and Hammerhead will have range 36" Burst Cannons. If true, this would somewhat balance the pervasive rumores of speed and D-pod nerfs.
Some pet peeves,
Darkstriders name "Myamoto" does not fit with the established Tau language and naming conventions. Seriously, "How hard would it to have been to insert the apostrophes so that it was El'mya'mo'to?"
Or even better and some what humorous, "El'mya'mo'tau"?
Additionally, from everything that we have seen officially released about the new Codex, it seems that GW went heavily with the Tau as a xeno guard army theme. If the rest of the codex follows this theme then GW will have effectively ruined the Tau for me.
Again, don't know until the codex comes out but The Cadre Fireblade & Tank commander Pas*..*cough* *cough* Long Knifes' abilities along with the rumoured Ethereal leadership bubbles and all of the new blast weapons just sound to IG for my liking.
If the new wargear adds six inches to the range and 1 shot to the firepower of the carbine (or possibly every pulse weapon in the bubble) then the carbine becomes a very viable alternative to the rifle, allowing Fire Warriors to move and shoot a considerable volume of fire at good ranges. The short range of the burst cannon also becomes less to worry about.
It is a big "if" though. Perhaps each unit must carry its own enhancement drones.
Kilkrazy wrote: If the new wargear adds six inches to the range and 1 shot to the firepower of the carbine (or possibly every pulse weapon in the bubble) then the carbine becomes a very viable alternative to the rifle, allowing Fire Warriors to move and shoot a considerable volume of fire at good ranges. The short range of the burst cannon also becomes less to worry about.
It is a big "if" though. Perhaps each unit must carry its own enhancement drones.
By the current info, the extra shot only comes with the Cadre Fireblade and only if the unit remains stationary. So, yes Carbine will be an option but the counter is that the Tau sacrifice mobility to get the extra shot.
Again, this is to IG-ish for my liking.
No sense in getting all wound up about what may or may not come to pass.
I am optimistic that there will be balance in this codex.
We just have to wait until its released or leaked. simple as that...
IMHO raging and worrying about what may or may not break your army based off of internet speculation and rumors is much the same as those silly yahoos who seriously thought the world was going to end in 2012 over something someone told them was true (Egg and face was in LOS on that one)
We don't know whats going to happen...lets just geek out together and hope for the best.
and thank you Kingsley for that list of confirmations.
We know they are basically IG vets with a nice gun and worse combat skills. So would it help if they were played like they were marching up next to a vehicle and gaining cover saves like some Guard players? I used the tactic and it worked well to a point, but Guard have Leman Russ variants for every job and Vets can pack lots of special weapons.
I never noticed the Alien Guard similarities. Good call there. I fully expect squadrons of Hammerheads.
We know they are basically IG vets with a nice gun and worse combat skills. So would it help if they were played like they were marching up next to a vehicle and gaining cover saves like some Guard players? I used the tactic and it worked well to a point, but Guard have Leman Russ variants for every job and Vets can pack lots of special weapons.
I never noticed the Alien Guard similarities. Good call there. I fully expect squadrons of Hammerheads.
It should be, because they don't have the numbers, melee skills or firepower to work otherwise. Tau need units that can move around the board and concentrate shooting to blast enemy units out of position.
Of course that tactical problem can be solved by giving them more numbers (cheaper troops) or melee skills or heavier guns but that turns the army into a different coloured copy of an army that already exists in the game.
Even with the nerf to vehicles somewhat (hull points) I imagine Firewarriors in Devilfish to still be a good alternative to foot slogging our fragile fellas across the board.
gr1m_dan wrote: Even with the nerf to vehicles somewhat (hull points) I imagine Firewarriors in Devilfish to still be a good alternative to foot slogging our fragile fellas across the board.
Well we don't know the points cost for a DF at the moment. To be honest I have always kept my fire warriors on foot but it's normally the rest of my force that does the hard work. Though I am tempted to start playing more aggressively with them given the right support.
We know they are basically IG vets with a nice gun and worse combat skills. So would it help if they were played like they were marching up next to a vehicle and gaining cover saves like some Guard players? I used the tactic and it worked well to a point, but Guard have Leman Russ variants for every job and Vets can pack lots of special weapons.
I never noticed the Alien Guard similarities. Good call there. I fully expect squadrons of Hammerheads.
Yes, mobility for Fire Warriors is a very big thing. Tau don't have the numbers to set a cheap gun-line blob and fire until they get assaulted. The Tau fluff reflects this in stating that the Tau eschew attrition warfare and that they do not fight to hold positions but will withdraw rather than to be caught in hth. The Tau are supposed to represent Manouever Warfare. Admittedly, GW has done a poor job representing this on the game board, but there was hope that the Tau would get a version of the very Tau-ish combat tactics voluntary fallback rule. This static nonsense just doesn't fit.
BTW, just a nit pick, but Tau FWs are regular guard equivalent not vets. This is what annoys many Tau players. You have an entire caste of a race that focuses solely on ranged warfare, they start with BS3 and never get better. This is how the Tau ability/rank track goes::
Shas'la are BS3
Shas'ui are BS3 and get ld8
Shas'ui Battlesuit is still BS3 ldrshp 8
Shas'vre Battlesuits are BS3 ldshp 8 and get WS3???
Shas 'el Battlesuits finally get BS4 and ldshp 9
Shas'o battlesuits get BS5 and ldshp 10
Though rumours suggest that the last 2 may be changing in some way. Thing is that each of these ranks take about 4 years(equates to about 8 years for a human). There is just no measurable improvement in basic ability until you get to what would be considered notable heros. Compound this fact with Shas'ui battlesuit and up are wearing "Hi Tech" battlesuits with built in targeting systems and the Tau BS 3 just becomes a bad joke.
Don't get me wrong, I don't feel that BSFW's are bad. I think that they are right on the mark. The BS3 battlesuits on the other hand are highly counter-intuitive and just seem like a lazy choice that justifies upping unit size instead.
Now, I do not expect for the hammerheads to come in squadrons,...Would be nice to have teams of 2 but is the kind of goodness that GW reserves for Imperium factions.
edit to add:
'd
Or you can ignore my long winded post and just use what Killkrazy so eloquently and efficiently wrote.
gr1m_dan wrote: Even with the nerf to vehicles somewhat (hull points) I imagine Firewarriors in Devilfish to still be a good alternative to foot slogging our fragile fellas across the board.
Implying that Devilfish weren't already terrible.
Flat out across the back line to keep the 2+ cover save does help in making them not so bad. Still, we have no idea what they do or come with or cost.
I can explain the fact Tau don't have "elite" units.
A Tau typically lives for forty to fifty Earth years. In that time they cannot become truly good at combat. They have no true war veterans like the other races.
Humans in the 41st live a lot longer than even today's standards. Marines can live for centuries even millennia.
To combat the lack of skill, Tau have amazing tech to help. Is this something that always works? No. Most battles the enemies of the Tau win are through attrition or from having better guys.
It says this in WD400 and I'm fairly sure that it will be in the codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aka what Kilkrazy said.
About hammerhead squadrons, in one of the battlereport pictures from WD I'd swear I saw a skyray and 2 hammerheads AND a squad of broadsides, making that 4 HSFoc's under the current codex. Cant find the picture now (its not in the first post), so I cant look at it again but it might indicate we are getting squadron hammerheads. It wouldnt really be that weird of an idea since that would be the only way to get us more str 10 AV power now that broadsides are no longer str 10.
We have TA to boost BS if you really need. It costs points but it's the tau using their tech once more to help them. It would skew the commander/shas vre suits too as they are the most experienced suit pilots
gr1m_dan wrote: Even with the nerf to vehicles somewhat (hull points) I imagine Firewarriors in Devilfish to still be a good alternative to foot slogging our fragile fellas across the board.
Implying that Devilfish weren't already terrible.
Flat out across the back line to keep the 2+ cover save does help in making them not so bad. Still, we have no idea what they do or come with or cost.
You don't win games by skulking around the base line.
But the real problem with the Devilfish was cost, not capability, and that hopefully will be addressed in the new book.
Puscifer wrote: I can explain the fact Tau don't have "elite" units.
A Tau typically lives for forty to fifty Earth years. In that time they cannot become truly good at combat. They have no true war veterans like the other races.
Humans in the 41st live a lot longer than even today's standards. Marines can live for centuries even millennia.
To combat the lack of skill, Tau have amazing tech to help. Is this something that always works? No. Most battles the enemies of the Tau win are through attrition or from having better guys.
It says this in WD400 and I'm fairly sure that it will be in the codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aka what Kilkrazy said.
It may be GW's logic but game and in any realistic framework its totally silly.
A soldier that survives a deployment or 2 , or fights in a campaign and survives and accomplishes his duties and orders is a war veteran, and will get better, trust me I know this from RL, but again its GW and it has a different view on what it takes to be a "veteran" I guess.
And just a little factoid..once our military went to using combat optics for rifle quals, the shooting standard went crazy, and not that amazing of tech, just sights that are easy to see and zero.
and to hold up the fact that a Marine that can live several centuries will still miss his shots 2 out of 6 times, when a recruit/ganger/basic trooper only misses 3 out of 6 times (game stat wise) is just as silly.
Its just a game balance issue, that is attempted to be buoyed up by shaky logic at best, but no worries, I have dealt with tau stats for a long time, its no surprises.
I assume so, and that is a slightly better reason for the stats..BUT, a culture that emphasizes shooting and ranged combat, and have high tech solutions at their beck and call, would solve that right out of the barn. Otherwise I guess a Tau should have a BS of 0 maybe without the "amazing" tech
gr1m_dan wrote: Even with the nerf to vehicles somewhat (hull points) I imagine Firewarriors in Devilfish to still be a good alternative to foot slogging our fragile fellas across the board.
Implying that Devilfish weren't already terrible.
Flat out across the back line to keep the 2+ cover save does help in making them not so bad. Still, we have no idea what they do or come with or cost.
You don't win games by skulking around the base line.
But the real problem with the Devilfish was cost, not capability, and that hopefully will be addressed in the new book.
I have won a few games skulking around an objective on the backfield. Granted I think Tau work best as an aggressive army using weight of firepower and manoeuvrability I have used the above to some success.
MoD_Legion wrote: About hammerhead squadrons, in one of the battlereport pictures from WD I'd swear I saw a skyray and 2 hammerheads AND a squad of broadsides, making that 4 HSFoc's under the current codex..
There isn't. The WD army has two squads of broadsides (one monat, one team of two) and a hammerhead with Longstrike if I'm not mistaken.
Mr Morden wrote:Do Tau still have the very poor depth perception that their tech helps compensate for?
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: I assume so, and that is a slightly better reason for the stats..BUT, a culture that emphasizes shooting and ranged combat, and have high tech solutions at their beck and call, would solve that right out of the barn. Otherwise I guess a Tau should have a BS of 0 maybe without the "amazing" tech
Its just game balance, se la vie.
Also, Depth perception is the reason for the Tau's low I stat. This is one of the few things GW got dead right.
Why?
Because depth perception has pretty much zero impact on ranged(shooting) warfare. Many if not most riflemen shut their "off target" eye to help them to focus on their target . Now, at rifle ranges depth perception might make target priority a bit more difficult but that has been out of the game for 2 editions now. : thumbsup:
Also, just a factoid from the fluff, the Tau don't suffer from any real depth perception issue but more from a racial based form of astigmatism. Their eyes focus a tad bit more slowly, which makes them slower to respond to changes in distance. This translates into them being slow to adjust to things moving fast when up close, ....but at range, it would not be an issue.
I don't know. I mean obviously they're going to balance this all somehow (I hope). The tau will find their way through this mess somehow. I won't pretend that the rumors that the railguns on the XV-88's losing power aren't a serious concern of mine. I hate relying on Hammerheads for main shots :/.
I dunno, I play in a MEQ heavy area, so it irritates me that a race that's literally not allowed to enter close combat without getting slaughtered sees equal shooting results on them as they do on us. WS3/S5 == WS4/S4 in the end, and the potential goes in the WS4's favor. Other races see WS3 on some shooting units, but aren't helpless in the face of a successful assault. (Given the much faster pace of 6th) with most assault races crossing the table in 2-3 turns, that doesn't leave you a lot of room to wiggle. 6 inches matters if they removed it from us.
6th ed also brought in overwatch which really does not help assault troops. Plus its still rubbish that High WS vs low WS has little effect - you still miss on on 1's and 2's.........
Your always going to have this problem with stats when using a D6 system, it simply just does not let you have much variation in stats. It's fine for a mass battle system like 40k as using D8, D10 and different stateline would take far to long.
overtyrant wrote: Your always going to have this problem with stats when using a D6 system, it simply just does not let you have much variation in stats. It's fine for a mass battle system like 40k as using D8, D10 and different stateline would take far to long.
Just like the combat system in 2nd ed. It was great but would take too long for today's games.
I am in a love hate relationship with bs3. On the one hand I love the idea of poor shooting skill being overcome with markerlights and low bs makes markerlights worth taking. I also like that it makes tau feel more like a focused army compared to others. I hate that in a practical sense it sucks having bs3. Missing half your shots suck and you feel super gimped without marker lights. So I am glad they kept bs at 3 (for firewarriors at least) and i really hope that pathfinders will be cheaper. I am worried that with a FA flyer pathfinders won't have a slot.
As for mobility of firewarriors I personally play them two ways. If they are in a fish, I zoom up, unload in rapid fire range and mow down the unit I am targeting, then I get back in the fish. If I am on foot, I move up to a point where I can fire and sit there until something starts coming my way and then I fall back. The double shot for the fw in a fish is not great but the ones on foot it is a nice bonus.
There are ways to make it better that are unique to tau and make them entertaining to play.
Agreed. I actually think BS3 base is a good design decision for Tau because it means that Targeting Arrays, Markerlights, etc. have an interesting place in the army as a whole-- even if, as some pointed out earlier, it doesn't really make all that much sense.
Some things that I noticed from the battle report in WD:
Stealth Suits (and possibly others) get Homing Beacons
Pathfinders no longer require a Devilfish
Nothing hinted at range changes for Pulse Rifles or Hammerheads.
Also: Commander Battlesuit only comes with CIB, AFP and Plasma Rifle, no other weapons.
I refuse to believe that the commander is stuck in one loadout. The whole point of the suits was the modular loadouts.
Am I the only one here hoping for Hammerhead squads? Tank spam with proper looking tanks would be fun as heck. And yes, I know it isn't likely to happen. Just let me dream.
Gifblaur wrote: I refuse to believe that the commander is stuck in one loadout. The whole point of the suits was the modular loadouts.
Don't worry, Commanders are still modular. Trasvi was referring to the new Finecast Commander kit, not to the Commander rules in game.
In fact, the WD battle report features a Command Suit with a large array of wargear: twin-linked fusion blasters, a shield generator, "Iridium Battlesuit" (probably the old Iridium Plating upgrade with a new name), a bonding knife, the still-mysterious Puretide engram neurochip (I've heard this lets you pick your Warlord trait but cannot confirm this), a Drone Controller, and a Marker and Shield Drone (phew!).
GAH! if the ethereals have that ability im stuck!.. I love having a battlesuit commander and I think the model is awesome. I managed to get hold of one of those super rare fire warriors from 2001/02 for use as a fireblade... and now I want an ethereal as well? damn youse GW!! too many HQ choices!!
Kingsley wrote: In fact, the WD battle report features a Command Suit with a large array of wargear: twin-linked fusion blasters, a shield generator, "Iridium Battlesuit" (probably the old Iridium Plating upgrade with a new name), a bonding knife, the still-mysterious Puretide engram neurochip (I've heard this lets you pick your Warlord trait but cannot confirm this), a Drone Controller, and a Marker and Shield Drone (phew!).
That's a fair whack of kit the commander has. I wonder if things have gotten cheaper points wise?
Kingsley wrote: In fact, the WD battle report features a Command Suit with a large array of wargear: twin-linked fusion blasters, a shield generator, "Iridium Battlesuit" (probably the old Iridium Plating upgrade with a new name), a bonding knife, the still-mysterious Puretide engram neurochip (I've heard this lets you pick your Warlord trait but cannot confirm this), a Drone Controller, and a Marker and Shield Drone (phew!).
That's a fair whack of kit the commander has. I wonder if things have gotten cheaper points wise?
I don't know why, but I find the Farsight model to be far, far better than the generic XV8 commander. The XV8 has everything that we've been asking for - more realistic joints, longer limbs, hands that work, more detail on all panels... yet it somehow just looks 'stretched' - I think the post also doesn't help with this. Farsight on the other hand has a much more dynamic pose, and looks a bit more solid than the other commander.
Also: dId anyone with the 'Nids codex add up the cost of their army? That would give us estimates within a couple dozen points on the cost of new stuff.
the battle report didn't even use the FOC and had all kinds of odd rules... im certain that points values weren't equal although you can prob get a rough idea. I put that nid army at around 2500
We know they are basically IG vets with a nice gun and worse combat skills. So would it help if they were played like they were marching up next to a vehicle and gaining cover saves like some Guard players? I used the tactic and it worked well to a point, but Guard have Leman Russ variants for every job and Vets can pack lots of special weapons.
I never noticed the Alien Guard similarities. Good call there. I fully expect squadrons of Hammerheads.
Yes, mobility for Fire Warriors is a very big thing. Tau don't have the numbers to set a cheap gun-line blob and fire until they get assaulted. The Tau fluff reflects this in stating that the Tau eschew attrition warfare and that they do not fight to hold positions but will withdraw rather than to be caught in hth. The Tau are supposed to represent Manouever Warfare. Admittedly, GW has done a poor job representing this on the game board, but there was hope that the Tau would get a version of the very Tau-ish combat tactics voluntary fallback rule. This static nonsense just doesn't fit.
BTW, just a nit pick, but Tau FWs are regular guard equivalent not vets. This is what annoys many Tau players. You have an entire caste of a race that focuses solely on ranged warfare, they start with BS3 and never get better. This is how the Tau ability/rank track goes::
Shas'la are BS3
Shas'ui are BS3 and get ld8
Shas'ui Battlesuit is still BS3 ldrshp 8
Shas'vre Battlesuits are BS3 ldshp 8 and get WS3???
Shas 'el Battlesuits finally get BS4 and ldshp 9
Shas'o battlesuits get BS5 and ldshp 10
Spoiler:
Though rumours suggest that the last 2 may be changing in some way. Thing is that each of these ranks take about 4 years(equates to about 8 years for a human). There is just no measurable improvement in basic ability until you get to what would be considered notable heros. Compound this fact with Shas'ui battlesuit and up are wearing "Hi Tech" battlesuits with built in targeting systems and the Tau BS 3 just becomes a bad joke.
Don't get me wrong, I don't feel that BSFW's are bad. I think that they are right on the mark. The BS3 battlesuits on the other hand are highly counter-intuitive and just seem like a lazy choice that justifies upping unit size instead.
Now, I do not expect for the hammerheads to come in squadrons,...Would be nice to have teams of 2 but is the kind of goodness that GW reserves for Imperium factions.
edit to add:
'd
Or you can ignore my long winded post and just use what Killkrazy so eloquently and efficiently wrote.
Ay, when the Tau promotion structure is basically 'be good enough or die', combined with bionic upgrades, superb targetting arrays and increasingly better equipment that it's a pretty static line through Shas'la, ui, vre, el, o is maddening to me.
I feel if should be along the lines of Shas'la, WS2, BS3, Ld7, that's fine. Then a 'ui is 2/4/8, 'vre 3/5/9, 'el 3/6/10 and 'o being 4/7/10.
But hey, that's me.
They aren't going to take away an option that is in the box set.
The carnifex kit would like a word with you. It contains plenty of options no longer found in the codex: acid maw, implant attack, thornback, mace tail, scythe tail, spore cysts, tusked, and enhanced senses.
They aren't going to take away an option that is in the box set.
The carnifex kit would like a word with you. It contains plenty of options no longer found in the codex: acid maw, implant attack, thornback, mace tail, scythe tail, spore cysts, tusked, and enhanced senses.
Oh great, cause I needed existential dread over what other horrors they could inflict upon tau. Well I'm just happy we got an author who isn't the unnameable one or crudace. Would've prefered Kelly but hey, you can only get so much right?
I remember a rumor from a while back that I don't think I've heard trashed on, that firewarriors would have a paid upgrade to boost their BS that wasn't a markerlight. Still hoping it's true, just like I'm still hoping that targeting arrays are cheap and don't take up a system slot just like multitrackers.
Oh and Arshbombe, you one of the hobbit or guild crew? Or is your location an artefact?
I was thinking the same thing. Not a big fan of the Fireblade model but I think he will be a great character for the Tau. That limited edition pathfinder model should do the trick.
As far as the BS3 thing, that's fine with me. With a good amount of markerlights you should be hitting on 2's or 3's anyway and stripping cover if you have enough tokens. That's what make Tau great. You need a unit or two to disappear, drop 16 markerlights at it and watch all your units hit on 2's or 3's for an entire turn. Bye Bye said enemy.
These characters that add a +1 to the amount of shots for shooting to a unit and the other that strips a point of Toughness will help out a lot. You have 5 terminators in front of you and you have 1/3 more shoots and they have T3now, throw in a few markerlights. It's night night time from simply 2 firewarrior teams, maybe even one if you're lucky. 60 shots all hitting on 2's and half of those wounding on 2's.
I can confirm that there is a photo floating around from either the codex or WD that shows 2 hammerheads, 1 skyray and some broadsides on the same table.
Rented Tritium wrote: I can confirm that there is a photo floating around from either the codex or WD that shows 2 hammerheads, 1 skyray and some broadsides on the same table.
Rented Tritium wrote: I can confirm that there is a photo floating around from either the codex or WD that shows 2 hammerheads, 1 skyray and some broadsides on the same table.
Take from this whatever you will.
GW using the double FOC, as per their rulebook?
That's what I think it was, but some people ITT were arguing about whether or not that photo even existed in the first place.
Just wanted to add these to the thread since I haven't seen them here yet. Grain of salt of course given the day.
russ29 on Advanced Tau Tactica (Incoming CHAOS SLAVES release discussion {with pics from WD} Pg. 52)
Alright then, let's see if I can recall the stuff I glimpsed through. The firewarrior pointage is correct regarding rumors. Devilfish has no change to its base cost. Hammerhead's base cost is slightly more than four stealthteam members. Shadowsun is much cheaper in points now, and if I do remember correctly, Aun'shi is more expensive in points than Aun'Va.
About the warlord traits. There is one which allows the commander and his retinue to move 3d6 during assault phase. Another to deep strike without scatter. And the one I think is the most awesome is one that allows those units that gone to ground to move, shoot, and assault as though it did not go to ground. I can't remember the other three, but so far this is all I can vaguely remember.
I already preordered my 'dex, and I really can't wait to read it carefully next time!
russ29 on Advanced Tau Tactica (Same Page)
Didn't notice the gears, just looked at the points because I was wondering if my army would still be viable or not. Oh, and one more warlord trait I remembered. Warlord ignores look out sir rolls. Can't confirm if its retinue or not though.
Summary:
Warlord Table
-- Commander and Retinue Jet Pack 3D6 in Assault.
-- Commander and Retinue Deep Strike without Scatter.
-- Units that GtG can still function in next turn. (Bubble effect most likely)
-- Warlord ignored Look Out Sir! rolls.
Devilfish cost unchanged,
Fire Warriors cost 9.
Hammerhead without Longstrike is 120+
davou wrote: Devilfish cost unchanged and Dpod nerfed is disgusting.
Yeah, that's really going to suck. Even if DPods and Multitrackers are standard, and even if vehicle mounted burst cannons are 36" S6 AP4, that's still not worth 80pts. Especially since things like Chimeras (similar AV, similar capacity, similar armament) are less expensive. Has to be a "skimmer tax" of some kind.
davou wrote: Devilfish cost unchanged and Dpod nerfed is disgusting.
The devilfish in its old configuration was 25 points too expensive. If it has gained 25ish points in stuff, then maybe it will be ok. If it comes with built in stuff like dark sun filters, the new multi-tracker etc. Heck, we don't even know if the armor stays the same, maybe it will now have 12s all around. Its just too little to know at this point. So many possibilities (in both directions).
davou wrote: Devilfish cost unchanged and Dpod nerfed is disgusting.
The devilfish in its old configuration was 25 points too expensive. If it has gained 25ish points in stuff, then maybe it will be ok. If it comes with built in stuff like dark sun filters, the new multi-tracker etc. Heck, we don't even know if the armor stays the same, maybe it will now have 12s all around. Its just too little to know at this point. So many possibilities (in both directions).
You have beat me to it.
That is near enough word for word what I typed before I hit send.
I could definitely see a version of the devilfish that is worth the current cost. It would need to have some good perks, but it's close enough to optimal price that it wouldn't take HUGE buffs for this to be the case.
I think it's smart for GW to shy away from tanks with super low base cost. There should be more mandatory tank upgrades to prevent absurd spam.
The Dude wrote:Im told Enforcer Armour is nothing special rules-wise, but that's not 100%.
Also, Ethereals buff units within 12" with one of 4 effects, one for each caste/element:
Fire= extra shot with pulse weapons (This looks to stack with Fireblade's Volley Fire for 4 shots per Fire Warrior)
Earth= 6+ Feel No Pain
Air= unit may run then snapshot with their weapons.
Water= source couldn't remember.
Aun 'Va may apparently issue two of these buffs per turn.
Ok so if this is true then I can actually see an whole army with Ethereals, Fireblades (if you can get more then one per FoC), 72 Firewarriors, Some Suits (not the Riptide, it is likely to be too expensive for this build), Broadsides, and maybe a few fliers.
Also, remember that they may have changed the stats of the burst cannons on the vehicles vs. the ones on the suits. For instance, what if burst cannons stayed the same, but the ones on the vehicles were heavy burst cannons and were say... Heavy 4, Str 6 ap 4 and 36 inch range? Also, what if the pulse carbine is 2 shots for each drone? It would go from 5 shots on the vehicle, to 8 shots on it. Let's let the rules come out before we get all doom and gloom.
Prodigalson wrote: Also, remember that they may have changed the stats of the burst cannons on the vehicles vs. the ones on the suits. For instance, what if burst cannons stayed the same, but the ones on the vehicles were heavy burst cannons and were say... Heavy 4, Str 6 ap 4 and 36 inch range?
That's similar to what I have been told, but with Rending.
Can't confirm it but I'd imagine it's still 30" range for pulse rifles. Nothing hinted at 24" in the magazine or any rumor we have ever read. The douche that wrote different was joking. I'm thinking overcharge will be like a 3+ it works kind of thing. 1or 2 you fail and take a hull point or a saveable wound. Anyone hear what the ion rifle the pathfinders carry can do? Range ap, etc?
My understanding of Ion overcharge(based on WD BR) is that it adds 2 or 3 to the strength of the weapon(seeing as how we dont know the basic S of the ion rifle and when overcharged it is S8 and i doubt the ion rifle would be S4.....) but if it fails the gun is in operable for that turn. However it doesnt look like any harm comes to the user from it.
Also, what i would like to be able to field(though i know it wont happen) is an all fusion gun stealthsuit team. that would make for a dangerous unit. Though it would be expensive i love stealthsuits and could easily sink the points into this unit lol
davou wrote: Devilfish cost unchanged and Dpod nerfed is disgusting.
Yeah, that's really going to suck. Even if DPods and Multitrackers are standard, and even if vehicle mounted burst cannons are 36" S6 AP4, that's still not worth 80pts. Especially since things like Chimeras (similar AV, similar capacity, similar armament) are less expensive. Has to be a "skimmer tax" of some kind.
Cant have them competing with marines now can we? Skimmers have been getting the shaft since 3rd.
Tauownz wrote: Can't confirm it but I'd imagine it's still 30" range for pulse rifles. Nothing hinted at 24" in the magazine or any rumor we have ever read. The douche that wrote different was joking. I'm thinking overcharge will be like a 3+ it works kind of thing. 1or 2 you fail and take a hull point or a saveable wound. Anyone hear what the ion rifle the pathfinders carry can do? Range ap, etc?
that guy, he almost ruined my day. Shame on me for almost beleiving him though.
Also, from what rumors I had collected from the vaious sites, the overcharge for the riptide's reactor was a failure on a 1-2, succeed on a 3+. Not sure if that's what you're talking about.
if your not talking about the reactor and just talking about Ion weaponry's overcharge, I'm guessing you're right, but I have nothing to back it up other than a gut feeling.
Man this week is torture. So many things I want to buy, but I'm not dropping any cash without reading the codex first. I want to know what units I want to buy to reinforce my army, and what units will complement it... AAaaaerrrgggh... saturday won't come soon enough!
So the rumor is that the railguns are tiered, and the hammerhead has access to the good one, but it loses it's bs4, which means you'd see even less railgun effectiveness on hammerheads? That's just... wow. I guess it's missile spam XV-88 time.
'd
that guy, he almost ruined my day. Shame on me for almost beleiving him though.