They had 5 pairs of different, nice ones, based on antelopes, rhinos, mammoths, elephants, etc, these have lazy, boring same-same boar tusks.
Funny, here I thought the full kit and its contents had not yet been announced. What insight you have from a single picture.
Yup, because if you make photo for ad, you pick the most boring heads and leave the good one in the box, right?
If you're naive enough to believe that, I have a bridge to sell to you.
Then there is oh, only the precedent from last five termie boxes (and entire primaris range) showing they only have enough helmets to cover all bodies, with maybe (sometimes) 1 extra fancy one for the unit leader, who, by the way, we can see on this pic. So, yeah, if you want to deal in delusions, more power to you, but with all the extra new weapons they have, they won't put any heads like old ones in. These were clearly designed to save sprue space, if there will be more heads, I'd bet on pile of bare, useless ones like in new SM and DW.
The new Terminator box makes me immediately think of what GW did when the made the new Meganobz kit: very similar to the kit before it, but better made and with modulation, so it was a decent kit from that perspective but also had the bits to create the MA Big Mek. So It's a guess, but there is a precedent that there's more we haven't seen.
cuda1179 wrote: Okay, so to make a comprehensive list of what Chaos is getting that is new, including boxed games:
Abaddon
Lord of possession
Warpsmith guy riding giant spider
Greater possessed
Chaos Marines Easy to Build kit
Chaos Marines
Terminators
Havoks
Easy to Build Obliterators
Venomcrawler
Chaos Stargate thingy
Khorne Skull terrain
Possibly adding to that: perhaps multi-part Venomcrawler and obliterators. Perhaps adding that thunderhammer guy as an optional layout.
That's 12-14 new kits. Isn't this a pretty big release that was pretty much just dropped into our laps? Bigger than pretty much anything before?
I'd not count the stuff from shadowspear as easy to build kits, as they're more a limited time thing that will no doubt be supplemented by full kits before too long.
cuda1179 wrote: Okay, so to make a comprehensive list of what Chaos is getting that is new, including boxed games:
Abaddon
Lord of possession
Warpsmith guy riding giant spider
Greater possessed
Chaos Marines Easy to Build kit
Chaos Marines
Terminators
Havoks
Easy to Build Obliterators
Venomcrawler
Chaos Stargate thingy
Khorne Skull terrain
Possibly adding to that: perhaps multi-part Venomcrawler and obliterators. Perhaps adding that thunderhammer guy as an optional layout.
That's 12-14 new kits. Isn't this a pretty big release that was pretty much just dropped into our laps? Bigger than pretty much anything before?
I'd not count the stuff from shadowspear as easy to build kits, as they're more a limited time thing that will no doubt be supplemented by full kits before too long.
but yeah it's quite the release
Yup, they're more like an entire box set of the retail plastic characters once you actually have them in hand.
cuda1179 wrote: Okay, so to make a comprehensive list of what Chaos is getting that is new, including boxed games:
Abaddon
Lord of possession
Warpsmith guy riding giant spider
Greater possessed
Chaos Marines Easy to Build kit
Chaos Marines
Terminators
Havoks
Easy to Build Obliterators
Venomcrawler
Chaos Stargate thingy
Khorne Skull terrain
Possibly adding to that: perhaps multi-part Venomcrawler and obliterators. Perhaps adding that thunderhammer guy as an optional layout.
That's 12-14 new kits. Isn't this a pretty big release that was pretty much just dropped into our laps? Bigger than pretty much anything before?
I'd not count the stuff from shadowspear as easy to build kits, as they're more a limited time thing that will no doubt be supplemented by full kits before too long.
but yeah it's quite the release
Yup, they're more like an entire box set of the retail plastic characters once you actually have them in hand.
that and I tend to view easy build as push to fit etc. the Shadowspear stuff isn't. you NEED glue for them
cuda1179 wrote: Okay, so to make a comprehensive list of what Chaos is getting that is new, including boxed games:
Abaddon
Lord of possession
Warpsmith guy riding giant spider
Greater possessed
Chaos Marines Easy to Build kit
Chaos Marines
Terminators
Havoks
Easy to Build Obliterators
Venomcrawler
Chaos Stargate thingy
Khorne Skull terrain
Possibly adding to that: perhaps multi-part Venomcrawler and obliterators. Perhaps adding that thunderhammer guy as an optional layout.
That's 12-14 new kits. Isn't this a pretty big release that was pretty much just dropped into our laps? Bigger than pretty much anything before?
I'd not count the stuff from shadowspear as easy to build kits, as they're more a limited time thing that will no doubt be supplemented by full kits before too long.
but yeah it's quite the release
Yup, they're more like an entire box set of the retail plastic characters once you actually have them in hand.
that and I tend to view easy build as push to fit etc. the Shadowspear stuff isn't. you NEED glue for them
Ok it's been forever since I built my Dark imperium box set, but don't you need glue for them?
While the new terminators are an improvement over the old ones (...I think), they didn't exactly blow me away.
Nice for people who want to buy terminators in general, but I suspect that a lot of CSM-players who already own enough of the old plastic terminators to fill their needs, won't really go out of their way to replace them with the new ones.
MinscS2 wrote: Nice for people who want to buy terminators in general, but I suspect that a lot of CSM-players who already own enough of the old plastic terminators to fill their needs, won't really go out of their way to replace them with the new ones.
That depends on how pretty Malibu Stacy's new hat is. We can already see things in that box that weren't part of the old kit (a power sword, combi-plasmas).
If the kit has Rotor-Cannons or Man-Portable Ecto-Plasma Cannons, Chaos Thunderhammers and so on, it might be enough to entice even someone with 25-30 of the damned things still to build.
When things get pulled off the webstore, are they pulled from stores? Is it too late to get the current versions before the new stuff comes into stores?
MinscS2 wrote: While the new terminators are an improvement over the old ones (...I think), they didn't exactly blow me away.
Nice for people who want to buy terminators in general, but I suspect that a lot of CSM-players who already own enough of the old plastic terminators to fill their needs, won't really go out of their way to replace them with the new ones.
I know I wont...
I didn't realize until I was looking at the photo next to photos of the current ones, that the detail is actually a marked improvement. The guns on the old terminators look chunky and cartoony compared to the new ones for example. It feels like instead of reinventing the wheel that made a bunch of small improvements to the visual design cues of the armour that all add up to a nicer looking mini.
If you've already converted every weapon option you could want with the old termies then yeah, their really in no need to upgrade to the new ones.
cuda1179 wrote: Okay, so to make a comprehensive list of what Chaos is getting that is new, including boxed games:
Abaddon
Lord of possession
Warpsmith guy riding giant spider
Greater possessed
Chaos Marines Easy to Build kit
Chaos Marines
Terminators
Havoks
Easy to Build Obliterators
Venomcrawler
Chaos Stargate thingy
Khorne Skull terrain
Possibly adding to that: perhaps multi-part Venomcrawler and obliterators. Perhaps adding that thunderhammer guy as an optional layout.
That's 12-14 new kits. Isn't this a pretty big release that was pretty much just dropped into our laps? Bigger than pretty much anything before?
Dont forget the units in Blackstone Fortress, Beastmen and Traitor Guard, Dark Mech and also the Nurgle part of the Rogue Trader box. I think this is only the tip of the iceberg. At least one more Codex, maybe Lost and Damned, and more kits. I also heard this wave would be even larger than what we have seen so far.
Orks had a starter kit Deffkopta and a plastic Warboss for years and years and once it was gone never got a readily available replacement. There's nothing to say that Beastmen, Traitor Guard or even Cultists will ever get a proper release.
Really happy with the new Terminator unit. Now all I need is for some of the Legions to have receive the odd tweak with their rules (looking at you, Word Bearers) and I'm set.
Amazing release for chaos I don't think I've ever seen anything on the scale of this release ever before. The new marines are gorgeous models as is Abaddon and pretty much everything else!
I bought shadow spear and once I've painted up the vanguard marines for my crimson fist force I'll be using the chaos as the start of red Corsair force.
Orks had a starter kit Deffkopta and a plastic Warboss for years and years and once it was gone never got a readily available replacement. There's nothing to say that Beastmen, Traitor Guard or even Cultists will ever get a proper release.
I never understood that with the orkz.
I would've bought so many deffkoptaz if they had had a box.
Imagine a multipart modell of them with all their options.. never happened sadly.
cuda1179 wrote: Okay, so to make a comprehensive list of what Chaos is getting that is new, including boxed games:
Abaddon
Lord of possession
Warpsmith guy riding giant spider
Greater possessed
Chaos Marines Easy to Build kit
Chaos Marines
Terminators
Havoks
Easy to Build Obliterators
Venomcrawler
Chaos Stargate thingy
Khorne Skull terrain
Possibly adding to that: perhaps multi-part Venomcrawler and obliterators. Perhaps adding that thunderhammer guy as an optional layout.
That's 12-14 new kits. Isn't this a pretty big release that was pretty much just dropped into our laps? Bigger than pretty much anything before?
I'd not count the stuff from shadowspear as easy to build kits, as they're more a limited time thing that will no doubt be supplemented by full kits before too long.
but yeah it's quite the release
Yup, they're more like an entire box set of the retail plastic characters once you actually have them in hand.
that and I tend to view easy build as push to fit etc. the Shadowspear stuff isn't. you NEED glue for them
Which is correct, as the only things GW call ETB are the push fit models.
But I think there will ever be a group of people that call the single/mono pose stuff an Easy to Build Kit.
It’s just seen as that by many.
Regarding Number of kits for This Release, I’d ignore the box (or count it as one) for the number of releases, for repeat models particularly.
Kind of like DI and Deathguard I did.
But it’s still 6/7 so far, with 3/4 more coming perhaps, if multi pet versions or character releases separate down the line etc.
A hefty release either way with number of new poses and sculpts coming.
(I wouldn’t count the Khorne thing for this release either, as it was for AoS, but it still stands as new for chaos.
But with the way GW look at what they are putting out for what faction, I bet they count low, just box count etc.
but hey that works for us particularly with dual system releases..
cuda1179 wrote: Okay, so to make a comprehensive list of what Chaos is getting that is new, including boxed games:
Abaddon
Lord of possession
Warpsmith guy riding giant spider
Greater possessed
Chaos Marines Easy to Build kit
Chaos Marines
Terminators
Havoks
Easy to Build Obliterators
Venomcrawler
Chaos Stargate thingy
Khorne Skull terrain
Possibly adding to that: perhaps multi-part Venomcrawler and obliterators. Perhaps adding that thunderhammer guy as an optional layout.
That's 12-14 new kits. Isn't this a pretty big release that was pretty much just dropped into our laps? Bigger than pretty much anything before?
Dont forget the units in Blackstone Fortress, Beastmen and Traitor Guard, Dark Mech and also the Nurgle part of the Rogue Trader box. I think this is only the tip of the iceberg. At least one more Codex, maybe Lost and Damned, and more kits. I also heard this wave would be even larger than what we have seen so far.
Nice new models so far btw
There’s also the new “Dark Apostle” hinted at by the Rumor Engine pics and the art that also has Abaddon in it, and there’s the “sorceror” backpack rumor pic that hasn’t shown up for any of the known units yet. So I’d say we are looking at at least two more character kits.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: When things get pulled off the webstore, are they pulled from stores? Is it too late to get the current versions before the new stuff comes into stores?
My local Warhammer store had all the Chaos Marine stuff in their "last chance to buy" section last year about October/November time. All they have left now are some possessed Marines with the small bases.
Actually, the last chance to buy section is a good place to look to see what is going to be updated next. Recently they've had the older Chaos Marauders and Greenskin models.
Boy am I glad I just got some Helbrutes. Who knows where you'll be able to buy them once the Start Collecting! vanishes into the ether.
Insane Ivan wrote: There’s also the new “Dark Apostle” hinted at by the Rumor Engine pics and the art that also has Abaddon in it, and there’s the “sorceror” backpack rumor pic that hasn’t shown up for any of the known units yet. So I’d say we are looking at at least two more character kits.
There's nothing "hinted" about it. The artwork exists, so the model exists, and he will look exactly like that, just like Spider-Mechanicus dude in the background matches the miniature pretty much exactly.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Boy am I glad I just got some Helbrutes. Who knows where you'll be able to buy them once the Start Collecting! vanishes into the ether.
Insane Ivan wrote: There’s also the new “Dark Apostle” hinted at by the Rumor Engine pics and the art that also has Abaddon in it, and there’s the “sorceror” backpack rumor pic that hasn’t shown up for any of the known units yet. So I’d say we are looking at at least two more character kits.
There's nothing "hinted" about it. The artwork exists, so the model exists, and he will look exactly like that, just like Spider-Mechanicus dude in the background matches the miniature pretty much exactly.
That was what I was trying to imply, yes, thank you.
MinscS2 wrote: Nice for people who want to buy terminators in general, but I suspect that a lot of CSM-players who already own enough of the old plastic terminators to fill their needs, won't really go out of their way to replace them with the new ones.
That depends on how pretty Malibu Stacy's new hat is. We can already see things in that box that weren't part of the old kit (a power sword, combi-plasmas).
If the kit has Rotor-Cannons or Man-Portable Ecto-Plasma Cannons, Chaos Thunderhammers and so on, it might be enough to entice even someone with 25-30 of the damned things still to build.
I wouldn't count on Terminators getting completely new weapon options, although the rotor cannon would be awesome
Pandabeer wrote: I wouldn't count on Terminators getting completely new weapon options, although the rotor cannon would be awesome
Oh of course. Yes, you're right. They're using the existing rules, so they won't get anything new. They'll just get what they're missing (Power Swords and Combi-Plasmas, basically).
BrianDavion wrote: Didn't one of the terminators have a chain axe? that would be a new weapon option for chaos terminators.
This is still a big question mark for me. Old metal terminator models used to have chain axes but those counted as power weapons from the 3rd edition onwards until they got replaced by the current plastic line.
Given how cheap power weapons are now, I see little use in chain axes. Unless you are going for a termicide squad and want to keep cost to a minimum.
I think it's safe to say it will count as a power axe, just as in FW's 30k range they have power axe kits for Cataphractii terminators that look like chain weapons.
So bit of a complaint on the Shadowspear models as I sit here assembling them. The Infiltrator Sergeant does not have a helmet at all. On all the previous Primaris models that did not wear a helmet they’d have it hanging on their belt, or at least include it as an extra bit you could do that yourself with. This guy’s just missing it entirely.
AduroT wrote: So bit of a complaint on the Shadowspear models as I sit here assembling them. The Infiltrator Sergeant does not have a helmet at all. On all the previous Primaris models that did not wear a helmet they’d have it hanging on their belt, or at least include it as an extra bit you could do that yourself with. This guy’s just missing it entirely.
Well, on the plus side, when the full kit comes out, there will likely be extra helmets in there that you can put on him. This way you don't need to carve off one on his belt. Or, you could swap his head for one of the other Marine heads in the box and give him a helmet right off the bat, though it will be lacking a skull on the forehead. But I agree, it is kind of dumb that they didn't give him a helmet at all, even if it meant more work to customize him.
I just hope that after this Chaos release is done, they release the regular versions of the Vanguard kits. I want full helmets for all of my Marines.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Boy am I glad I just got some Helbrutes. Who knows where you'll be able to buy them once the Start Collecting! vanishes into the ether.
GW sell the helbrute as its own kit no? In fact i know they do i'v bought one in the past
AduroT wrote: So bit of a complaint on the Shadowspear models as I sit here assembling them. The Infiltrator Sergeant does not have a helmet at all. On all the previous Primaris models that did not wear a helmet they’d have it hanging on their belt, or at least include it as an extra bit you could do that yourself with. This guy’s just missing it entirely.
It does explain why his head looks like it's been chewed by a Bloodthirster, though. Perfect "always wear your helmet to work" advertisement, that guy.
I really hope they release a proper kit for Greater Possessed, but I have a feeling they're going to be like all the other smaller heroes in these kinds of box sets and never get anything outside of the box. I needs me more good looking possessed
-_-
AduroT wrote: So bit of a complaint on the Shadowspear models as I sit here assembling them. The Infiltrator Sergeant does not have a helmet at all. On all the previous Primaris models that did not wear a helmet they’d have it hanging on their belt, or at least include it as an extra bit you could do that yourself with. This guy’s just missing it entirely.
It does explain why his head looks like it's been chewed by a Bloodthirster, though. Perfect "always wear your helmet to work" advertisement, that guy.
Latro_ wrote: new lightning claws from rumour engine hidden in plain sight
oh those are AWESOME.
Unfortunately, like with most of the stuff they're showing off with these gorgeous kits....godawful in game.
That is what makes me the most sad with all this stuff. INCREDIBLE new kits for havocs, raptors, csm and terminators, these classic, amazing models...awful, unusable rules.
Why, GW, why couldn't you just prove the conspiracy theorists right just this once and give these amazing kits even usable rules?
Binabik15 wrote: Those LCs scream "MAKE ME A NIGHT LORD YOU COWARD". I guess I will have to obey. How terrible are Night Lords in the current CSM codex?
Well, erm, they play to morale shenanigans, problem is their signature unit Raptors, while looking good, ain't all that great. That said, if you want to troll your enemy blobs with morale they are decent.
Competitve they don't make the cut, like the new Oblits.
zedmeister wrote: For further conspiracy fun, that defiler looks photoshopped on. I wonder if it is covering something...
There's been a few articles and discussions on the Twitch stream about it; most of those big scenic shots use focus stacking to make sure all the models are in focus, from the front to the back of the composition.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Speaking of Raptors. Nice they now at least better fit the wider aesthetic.
I will be honest, i get the urge to get myself some CSM just for the chainswords and boltpistols and the new models.(ofcourse i will also use a saw CUS FEEEEETH MONOPOSE BODIES!)
Then i will try to make a Raider Warband, and sing "You are a Pirate" whilest trying to get into melee. (with a mass Marine Army probably, IF the new Havocs look nice and get enough Autocannons.)
Coddammit GW. Why on earth in the legion which still makes use of the underwhelming predators and vindicators, are these excluded from being able to become devastation battery detachments? You had this one chance for people to put vindicators on the field again...
There is almost nothing new, except the specialist detachment, or have I missed something?
Automatically Appended Next Post: including new WL Trait:
Nope, you didn't miss anything. Another reroll combo that requires up front CP and specific circumstances, plus some reprints of existing rules. This looks to be a fairly boring 8 days of 'previews'
Only surprise I'd that the warsmith model is still available. I honestly didn't know that (though I don't know how well it will fit amongst the new models)
Truth be said, the warlord trait is not bad at all for a buffing chaos lord sitting between 3 havoc units, for 80something points giving them reroll 1's to both hit and wound. It could also work on monsters honestly, and I really really wish that predators could become devastation battery. Then my 6 laspreds could find their way into a list finally.
So the terminator with the mace, teased in the vigilus artwork is to the far left of that picture. But is he wearing a cape? The guy in the artwork wasn't, but then again Abaddons cape is optional
Albino Squirrel wrote: So, looks like the autocannon probably comes in the chaos marine box, then, as well as heavy bolter and missile launcher.
Hopefully, but it might just come in the Shadowspear set.
It would be odd for the Chaos Marine box to include all 3 Heavy weapons and NOT be a dual kit with Havocs. I would almost assume this would be the case if it wasn't for the unit feet shown on the Havoc preview.
Probably indicates both kits are separate.
Albino Squirrel wrote: So, looks like the autocannon probably comes in the chaos marine box, then, as well as heavy bolter and missile launcher.
Hopefully, but it might just come in the Shadowspear set.
It would be odd for the Chaos Marine box to include all 3 Heavy weapons and NOT be a dual kit with Havocs. I would almost assume this would be the case if it wasn't for the unit feet shown on the Havoc preview.
Probably indicates both kits are separate.
-
They’d have shown the other build of the kit, if there was one, when they said it would be up for preorder on Saturday.
PiñaColada wrote: So the terminator with the mace, teased in the vigilus artwork is to the far left of that picture. But is he wearing a cape? The guy in the artwork wasn't, but then again Abaddons cape is optional
PiñaColada wrote: So the terminator with the mace, teased in the vigilus artwork is to the far left of that picture. But is he wearing a cape? The guy in the artwork wasn't, but then again Abaddons cape is optional
Mind pointing it out for this blind man?
All the way to the left in that picture, the terminator has a big mace in his right hand
As an IW player, I'm happy with the current releases. I wasn't expecting anything new so it's all a bonus. A couple of havoc sqds babysat by a Lord with new trait, DP still making cultists immune to morale, and probably get the new walker character to babysit some maulerfiends/venomcrawlers (undecided on latter). I'll probably end up getting an elite detachment of Black Legion too using Chosen, terminators and Abaddon himself.
Not worried about the competitive build, that's not typically what I use my IW for.
BrotherGecko wrote: You would think they would preview those fancy new havocs with...I don't know...the legion that basically invented them?
No? Just going to troll the Iron Warriors players GW?
*Bitterness Intensifies*
Yeeees let the bitterness Flow through you.
Considering the Modus operandi of IW is bitterness and spite, you will make a fine IW, now go dig a trench!
Odd how Devastation Battery doesn't include actual heavy firepower vehicles... such a shame that their creativity is so limited to exactly what new models are coming out.
Kirasu wrote: Odd how Devastation Battery doesn't include actual heavy firepower vehicles... such a shame that their creativity is so limited to exactly what new models are coming out.
its not odd what new models are they gonna be selling?
obilts and havocs
what models magically got a strat?
obilts and havocs
BrotherGecko wrote: You would think they would preview those fancy new havocs with...I don't know...the legion that basically invented them?
No? Just going to troll the Iron Warriors players GW?
*Bitterness Intensifies*
Yeeees let the bitterness Flow through you.
Considering the Modus operandi of IW is bitterness and spite, you will make a fine IW, now go dig a trench!
My IW wept such bitter tears they rusted and became Death Guard look a likes. They will probably stay that way for now.
McGibs wrote: This week is a leadup to the weekend's preorder. Havoks arent up for preorder yet.
Right... So, wait on the IW preview for relevant content (ie. Next week) and do one of the other remaining legions/renegades instead. They aren't likely to go through them all this week, so might as well match things up.
McGibs wrote: This week is a leadup to the weekend's preorder. Havoks arent up for preorder yet.
Right... So, wait on the IW preview for relevant content (ie. Next week) and do one of the other remaining legions/renegades instead. They aren't likely to go through them all this week, so might as well match things up.
I agree, I don't think it was well planned out. It doesn't really build product hype if you do a preview of new terminators and new rules for 1 legion and then follow it up with nothing more on those new terminators along with old models and bad rules. They should of structured it around what they had or could show.
Kirasu wrote: Odd how Devastation Battery doesn't include actual heavy firepower vehicles... such a shame that their creativity is so limited to exactly what new models are coming out.
its not odd what new models are they gonna be selling?
obilts and havocs
what models magically got a strat?
obilts and havocs
Yeah and it's dumb. They'd sell more models if the detachment allowed for more. I'll never understand their myopic views on not also adding some other heavy weaponry to this detachment or other new detachments in general. Better rules for more models = higher sales
Kirasu wrote: Odd how Devastation Battery doesn't include actual heavy firepower vehicles... such a shame that their creativity is so limited to exactly what new models are coming out.
its not odd what new models are they gonna be selling?
obilts and havocs
what models magically got a strat?
obilts and havocs
Yeah and it's dumb. They'd sell more models if the detachment allowed for more. I'll never understand their myopic views on not also adding some other heavy weaponry to this detachment or other new detachments in general. Better rules for more models = higher sales
I don't see a big issue, the detachment is clearly intended for iron warriors heavy weapon INFANTRY
next are:
Night Lords
The Word Bearers
World Eaters
Emperor’s Children
Alpha Legion
Renegades
I did not think they were going to keep Emperor's Children and World Eaters in the book... Makes me think the Slaanesh and Khorne books will not be themed around the Legion and instead they will have their own unique faction identity (like Khorne Daemonkin in 7th edition).
This is one area where I genuinely don't remember, but what was each iteration of the Chaos bikes?
AFAIK, there were the ones with metal farings from around late 2nd, then the current ones with the topknot and helmet heads that, like the Marine one, also came with some metal variant bits for a while? Did they, like Marines, get a minor update that mostly just made the details a bit crisper and didn't really look different at a distance?
next are:
Night Lords
The Word Bearers
World Eaters
Emperor’s Children
Alpha Legion
Renegades
I did not think they were going to keep Emperor's Children and World Eaters in the book... Makes me think the Slaanesh and Khorne books will not be themed around the Legion and instead they will have their own unique faction identity (like Khorne Daemonkin in 7th edition).
If they are coming out at all. Khorne just got a big AoS release and while some mini's got updated rules and we got the skull altar thingie, no WE/ Khorne book. Can't imagine Slaanesh being any different. And with WE and EC in the Vigilus Ablaze book Khorne and Slaanesh books are probably at the very least 1-2 years off (as in planned in the very long term or no plans yet).
next are:
Night Lords
The Word Bearers
World Eaters
Emperor’s Children
Alpha Legion
Renegades
I did not think they were going to keep Emperor's Children and World Eaters in the book... Makes me think the Slaanesh and Khorne books will not be themed around the Legion and instead they will have their own unique faction identity (like Khorne Daemonkin in 7th edition).
If they are coming out at all. Khorne just got a big AoS release and while some mini's got updated rules and we got the skull altar thingie, no WE/ Khorne book. Can't imagine Slaanesh being any different. And with WE and EC in the Vigilus Ablaze book Khorne and Slaanesh books are probably at the very least 1-2 years off (as in planned in the very long term or no plans yet).
I think it's more probable at this stage that a daemons book v2 is on the way with the revised rules for khorne stuff and the inevitable new slaanesh stuff.
As an Iron Warrior, I too am pretty pissed that we have been stuck on garrison duty repainting our Obliterator Cults pink ever since the start of the Great Crusade 3.5th edition.
I like how CSM pay 1 cp and have all bonus rules right there, while primaris pay 1 cp then get to pay 1 cp for each unit to actually get bonus rules. Who should be bitter here, again?
Nightlord1987 wrote: I was hoping we would see something for Death Guard in Vigilus but I guess no love for Papa.
I am surprised that they are not getting the standard Formation and related stuff? Even more new models woud however be greedy when so many have so few......
Darkseid wrote: I guess tomorrows Night Lords preview will feature Raptors and Warp Talons; no new units.
And it'll be worded like
"Raptors are already known to be a DEVASTATING terror assault unit in the game of warhammer 40,000 which we have absolutely played this edition of, like, hundreds of times, and you may think with the awesome HAARKON WORLD-
what was it steve?
WORLDCLAIMER leading them, how could Raptors be any more amazing??
Well, hold on to your updated kit we have definitely sold more than four of.
This book gives them a stratagem, which for a mere 3cp, grants them
Irbis wrote: I like how CSM pay 1 cp and have all bonus rules right there, while primaris pay 1 cp then get to pay 1 cp for each unit to actually get bonus rules. Who should be bitter here, again?
Veteran Intercessors get a bonus of +1 A +1 LD. The other detachments don't give out a bonus intrinsically.
Darkseid wrote: I guess tomorrows Night Lords preview will feature Raptors and Warp Talons; no new units.
And it'll be worded like
"Raptors are already known to be a DEVASTATING terror assault unit in the game of warhammer 40,000 which we have absolutely played this edition of, like, hundreds of times, and you may think with the awesome HAARKON WORLD-
what was it steve?
WORLDCLAIMER leading them, how could Raptors be any more amazing??
Well, hold on to your updated kit we have definitely sold more than four of.
This book gives them a stratagem, which for a mere 3cp, grants them
next are:
Night Lords
The Word Bearers
World Eaters
Emperor’s Children
Alpha Legion
Renegades
I did not think they were going to keep Emperor's Children and World Eaters in the book... Makes me think the Slaanesh and Khorne books will not be themed around the Legion and instead they will have their own unique faction identity (like Khorne Daemonkin in 7th edition).
If they are coming out at all. Khorne just got a big AoS release and while some mini's got updated rules and we got the skull altar thingie, no WE/ Khorne book. Can't imagine Slaanesh being any different. And with WE and EC in the Vigilus Ablaze book Khorne and Slaanesh books are probably at the very least 1-2 years off (as in planned in the very long term or no plans yet).
I think it makes it more likely about WE getting something with all the stuff for them already surely.
If they already have a load of stuff written in Vigilus, it’s already there and probably in the works for WE anyway.
So I’d say this year rather than 1-2 years.
At least for them or EC
I think it makes it more likely about WE getting something with all the stuff for them already surely.
If they already have a load of stuff written in Vigilus, it’s already there and probably in the works for WE anyway.
So I’d say this year rather than 1-2 years.
At least for them or EC
But who knows.
Don't get my hopes up
Old Berserker miniatures will look very out of place with all the new stuff being released. That is my only rationale for GW actually updating Berserkers as well.
Irbis wrote: I like how CSM pay 1 cp and have all bonus rules right there, while primaris pay 1 cp then get to pay 1 cp for each unit to actually get bonus rules. Who should be bitter here, again?
Veteran Intercessors get a bonus of +1 A +1 LD. The other detachments don't give out a bonus intrinsically.
I wouldn't call it intrinsic seeing as you gotta pay a CP to do that for each squad.
Remember guys, the World Eaters and Emperor's Children are part of this Faction Focus because they are getting formations/stuff in Vigilus Ablaze. It has a lot less to do with the Codex and more to do with the Campaign Book.
I'm sure in the next 5 years or so we'll finally get a World Eaters and Emperor's Children Codex.
Ugh.. but yeah, GW seems so out of touch with what Chaos players actually want it's just tragic. How hard can it be to throw us a bone and give things like Iron Warriors and Night Lords a usable legion trait?
Irbis wrote: I like how CSM pay 1 cp and have all bonus rules right there, while primaris pay 1 cp then get to pay 1 cp for each unit to actually get bonus rules. Who should be bitter here, again?
Veteran Intercessors get a bonus of +1 A +1 LD. The other detachments don't give out a bonus intrinsically.
I wouldn't call it intrinsic seeing as you gotta pay a CP to do that for each squad.
Isn;t that the point - if you spend a CP you get actual physical bonuses - the CSM ones allow those units to be buffed but don;t boost stats?
drbored wrote: Ugh.. but yeah, GW seems so out of touch with what Chaos players actually want it's just tragic. How hard can it be to throw us a bone and give things like Iron Warriors and Night Lords a usable legion trait?
More like out of touch with the rules. A couple of recent tactics / army building articles would support that.
To be fair; CSM support improved drastically since the end of the 7th edition and has never been higher (at least from a volume point of view, not necessary quality).
Darkseid wrote: To be fair; CSM support improved drastically since the end of the 7th edition and has never been higher (at least from a volume point of view, not necessary quality).
It might be nostalgia talking, but the old Index Astartes days were IMHO the best C/SM support there's been. While the game has become more sophisticated since then, the reskinned units (that they're still using), fleshing out the army concepts, and introduction of specialist/variant squads was pretty amazing. I get that there's more breadth these days (what with DG/TS getting their own books), but there are weird holes in them, and I still think that the IA days had some of the best results, regarding ambition, scope, and minor modifications to redefine an army (which is admittedly a personal preference).
drbored wrote: How hard can it be to throw us a bone and give things like Iron Warriors and Night Lords a usable legion trait?
With the growing popularity of cover save buffing in the GW design team, after the backlash against all the things they gave -1 to hit, I find myself keeping an eye open for things that ignore cover saves. Being able to smack Eliminators despite their 1+ cover save, for example.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah, Ignores Cover is actually a genuinely good trait. It's the latter part of the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors traits that are hot garbage.
Maybe if they unnerfed things like the VSG, vengeance batteries, and plasma obliterator, and improved some of the other buildings, they would show up a bit more again and the traits would have a use.
spiralingcadaver wrote:It might be nostalgia talking, but the old Index Astartes days were IMHO the best C/SM support there's been. While the game has become more sophisticated since then, the reskinned units (that they're still using), fleshing out the army concepts, and introduction of specialist/variant squads was pretty amazing. I get that there's more breadth these days (what with DG/TS getting their own books), but there are weird holes in them, and I still think that the IA days had some of the best results, regarding ambition, scope, and minor modifications to redefine an army (which is admittedly a personal preference).
I argue that having a stand-alone codex is the highest amount of support an army can get. Wether these books represent the army in a meaningful way is of course a separate discussion. That said, I would prefer to have chaos all in one book with the flexiblity to mix and match as in 3.5 codex.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Yeah, Ignores Cover is actually a genuinely good trait. It's the latter part of the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors traits that are hot garbage.
Has this changed since the codex came out? Back then even ignore cover has been considered marginal at best.
spiralingcadaver wrote:It might be nostalgia talking, but the old Index Astartes days were IMHO the best C/SM support there's been. While the game has become more sophisticated since then, the reskinned units (that they're still using), fleshing out the army concepts, and introduction of specialist/variant squads was pretty amazing. I get that there's more breadth these days (what with DG/TS getting their own books), but there are weird holes in them, and I still think that the IA days had some of the best results, regarding ambition, scope, and minor modifications to redefine an army (which is admittedly a personal preference).
I argue that having a stand-alone codex is the highest amount of support an army can get. Wether these books represent the army in a meaningful way is of course a separate discussion. That said, I would prefer to have chaos all in one book with the flexiblity to mix and match as in 3.5 codex.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Yeah, Ignores Cover is actually a genuinely good trait. It's the latter part of the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors traits that are hot garbage.
Has this changed since the codex came out? Back then even ignore cover has been considered marginal at best.
Yes, I don't play much.
It's not huge. If all the -1 to hit mechanics got changed to be cover based instead, then we'd be talking. The new vanguard primaris units have a bunch of cover rules, but they aren't all that good from the looks of things, so I doubt they'll come up much.
At the end of the day, cover is not common enough. If it were as common as in 5th ed, then these traits would be great.
Darkseid wrote: Has this changed since the codex came out? Back then even ignore cover has been considered marginal at best.
Yes, I don't play much.
It has, yes. Bonuses to cover are a lot more prominent these days than they were at launch across a number of factions, and the universal Prepared Positions stratagem which gives your whole army cover on the first turn means you're likely to never see a game where Ignores Cover isn't a good ability.
Darkseid wrote: I argue that having a stand-alone codex is the highest amount of support an army can get. Wether these books represent the army in a meaningful way is of course a separate discussion. That said, I would prefer to have chaos all in one book with the flexiblity to mix and match as in 3.5 codex.
That's fair. I guess I was gauging it more on the expansion of support, rather than the total support. For instance, Thousand Sons went from one nice character model a single static and ancient model that you needed to special order and would require a bunch of the same posed guy, to a mini-faction with a new core set in line with the current line, and quite a few special options to convert; while they now have some more variations on those and new characters, to me, going from an unplayable army to one that's representable on the table is a bigger jump than the one they've grown over the last couple editions, separating it into its own small codex, and it's certainly a bigger jump proportional to the amount of effort/rules involved.
Darkseid wrote: I argue that having a stand-alone codex is the highest amount of support an army can get. Wether these books represent the army in a meaningful way is of course a separate discussion. That said, I would prefer to have chaos all in one book with the flexiblity to mix and match as in 3.5 codex.
That's fair. I guess I was gauging it more on the expansion of support, rather than the total support. For instance, Thousand Sons went from one nice character model a single static and ancient model that you needed to special order and would require a bunch of the same posed guy, to a mini-faction with a new core set in line with the current line, and quite a few special options to convert; while they now have some more variations on those and new characters, to me, going from an unplayable army to one that's representable on the table is a bigger jump than the one they've grown over the last couple editions, separating it into its own small codex, and it's certainly a bigger jump proportional to the amount of effort/rules involved.
You're certainly not wrong, and that's a good way to look at it all in a positive light. The end of 7th was when we got the Thousand Sons and then shortly thereafter a huge boost to Death Guard. With allies rules, it's easy to have a bit of everything Chaos-related in a single army. You can have a detachment of Death Guard, one of Thousand Sons, and one of Chaos Marines, and then sprinkle in Chaos Daemons as each Codex allows.
The trouble is that there's this general feeling of 'half-assedness'. We're still waiting on Emperor's Children and World Eaters, and the Codexes that we DO have suffer from sub-par rules. The only way you see Thousand Sons and Death Guard in the top brackets is with the Daemon Primarchs and little else in the lists. This edition has also developed so that power armor models are simply not as effective as other units without a butt-ton of special rules to back them up, and even then it's easy to make them overpriced for what they actually provide (see: Death Guard and Grey Knights).
And all of that is a separation of what many Chaos players actually WANT, which is to field semi-elite forces of CHAOS **MARINES** supported by the elements that they desire. Now, of course there's the casual argument, that you can play the army that you want and generally get along just fine in a casual meta, but many players, myself included, don't live in an area where there **is** a casual meta. It's competitive or bust, and for those of us that want to enjoy the game playing aspect of the hobby, that can be very frustrating when the force that you desire to play is so far from the force that you *have* to play in order to be at the same level as an Astra Militarum player.
And what **DO** they do instead?
Make cultists 5 points over 4 while Guardsmen are still 4 points.
So, as a lover of Chaos, it's hard to be completely content with GW's half-measures. Even this model release will likely be a half-measure. Possessed, the Defiler, and Bikers, as old as they are, are likely not to get updated at all and we're still waiting for Emperor's Children and World Eaters to get their time in the light, which may not be for another year+ yet. I'm just not holding my breath.
That said, the models are gorgeous and I'm going to be buying them for the building/painting joy. I just wont expect to be able to make an army and be able to do well in my town.
100% in agreement, drbored: the game is much healthier played in a casual setting, which is too bad, though my group has adapted to that and plays sub-optimal and fluffy lists hard once they hit the table.
Yes, I find this release to be a fairly weak showing despite some nice models. I'm somewhat dismayed that Terminators got such a minor update that didn't even really bring them in line with the new CSM core when Berserkers (I think the oldest kit out there, other than a couple Eldar vehicle kits that held up very well with the addition of some weapon options?) and Noise Marines (still relying on those upgrade kits) haven't gotten updates in this century IIRC.
I guess where I am is that I'd rather see the core line really put into shape (both rules and models) more than I'd like to see some cool but niche additions to variants on the basic CSM line, which I think is fairly similar to what you're saying, .
spiralingcadaver wrote: 100% in agreement, drbored: the game is much healthier played in a casual setting, which is too bad, though my group has adapted to that and plays sub-optimal and fluffy lists hard once they hit the table.
Yes, I find this release to be a fairly weak showing despite some nice models. I'm somewhat dismayed that Terminators got such a minor update that didn't even really bring them in line with the new CSM core when Berserkers (I think the oldest kit out there, other than a couple Eldar vehicle kits that held up very well with the addition of some weapon options?) and Noise Marines (still relying on those upgrade kits) haven't gotten updates in this century IIRC.
I guess where I am is that I'd rather see the core line really put into shape (both rules and models) more than I'd like to see some cool but niche additions to variants on the basic CSM line, which I think is fairly similar to what you're saying, .
Yeah, I agree with that.
And there's no telling what they'll update in the future and bring into future Codexes. There's people that think that a Renegade Guard Codex might be coming, which would be a great boon to Chaos armies, since they, too, will be able to field the Loyal 32 (heretical 32?) and take basilisks and other things that are just better than the tanks that they have access to. They also may take the opportunity to update Possessed and Bikers, and continue to add more Daemon Engines in the Emperor's Children and World Eater releases that we all know are coming, but have to exercise a lot of patience to wait for while Space Marines gets yet another update.
We'll see what happens. I'm not a very fast builder or painter, so by the time all of that happens, I might be done with the Shadowspear box
I think the chaos marines suffer greatly from being stuck with the minimarine statline. I hope that once they squat the loyalist minimarines in the 9th edition, the chaos boys will just get the primaris statline.
spiralingcadaver wrote: 100% in agreement, drbored: the game is much healthier played in a casual setting, which is too bad, though my group has adapted to that and plays sub-optimal and fluffy lists hard once they hit the table.
Yes, I find this release to be a fairly weak showing despite some nice models. I'm somewhat dismayed that Terminators got such a minor update that didn't even really bring them in line with the new CSM core when Berserkers (I think the oldest kit out there, other than a couple Eldar vehicle kits that held up very well with the addition of some weapon options?) and Noise Marines (still relying on those upgrade kits) haven't gotten updates in this century IIRC.
I guess where I am is that I'd rather see the core line really put into shape (both rules and models) more than I'd like to see some cool but niche additions to variants on the basic CSM line, which I think is fairly similar to what you're saying, .
Yeah, I agree with that.
And there's no telling what they'll update in the future and bring into future Codexes. There's people that think that a Renegade Guard Codex might be coming, which would be a great boon to Chaos armies, since they, too, will be able to field the Loyal 32 (heretical 32?) and take basilisks and other things that are just better than the tanks that they have access to. They also may take the opportunity to update Possessed and Bikers, and continue to add more Daemon Engines in the Emperor's Children and World Eater releases that we all know are coming, but have to exercise a lot of patience to wait for while Space Marines gets yet another update.
We'll see what happens. I'm not a very fast builder or painter, so by the time all of that happens, I might be done with the Shadowspear box
Optimistic today? The gw rules Team took over the Fw rulewriting, and for what it's worth that didn't help the allready available heretical 32 even though they are cheaper then their Am counterpart.
If GW would completly take over it wouldn't also be too outlandish to see it identical with the bsf release which frankly whilest better then R&H atm still would be more meeeeh. Of course there's always the chance i am wrong there and they would get the most bonkers traits and units ever, but the track record looks rather grim chaps.
Honestly, now that they've done Brood Brothers, I don't see why they couldn't just knock out the CSM equivalent in about an hour of rules work (okay, maybe that's a bit hyperbolic): flesh out the renegade Guard, Chaos Beastmen, Negavolt wastes of points, and throw in whatever other BSF characters fit, in the core codex using the BSF assets and some dumb restrictions based on exact model gear, then add a "renegade" regimental doctrine to IG and match the new units to that rather than Servants of the Abyss.
But, honestly, I don't see non-Primaris Marine or CSM infantry getting to a good non-casual point in this edition, since there are just so many subpar variants across the various C/SM codecies that would need updating. I mean, they'd need to go a lot further than USR improved bolters to make them interesting in a competitive scene.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Honestly, now that they've done Brood Brothers, I don't see why they couldn't just knock out the CSM equivalent in about an hour of rules work (okay, maybe that's a bit hyperbolic): flesh out the renegade Guard, Chaos Beastmen, Negavolt wastes of points, and throw in whatever other BSF characters fit, in the core codex using the BSF assets and some dumb restrictions based on exact model gear, then add a "renegade" regimental doctrine to IG and match the new units to that rather than Servants of the Abyss.
But, honestly, I don't see non-Primaris Marine or CSM infantry getting to a good non-casual point in this edition, since there are just so many subpar variants across the various C/SM codecies that would need updating. I mean, they'd need to go a lot further than USR improved bolters to make them interesting in a competitive scene.
Just lower the points cost of Chaos Marines to a more acceptable level. Make it so that there is an interesting decision point between worthless but numerous Cultists or fewer but more powerful CSM. Right now, the metric is heavily skewed in favor of the Cultists
spiralingcadaver wrote: Honestly, now that they've done Brood Brothers, I don't see why they couldn't just knock out the CSM equivalent in about an hour of rules work (okay, maybe that's a bit hyperbolic): flesh out the renegade Guard, Chaos Beastmen, Negavolt wastes of points, and throw in whatever other BSF characters fit, in the core codex using the BSF assets and some dumb restrictions based on exact model gear, then add a "renegade" regimental doctrine to IG and match the new units to that rather than Servants of the Abyss.
But, honestly, I don't see non-Primaris Marine or CSM infantry getting to a good non-casual point in this edition, since there are just so many subpar variants across the various C/SM codecies that would need updating. I mean, they'd need to go a lot further than USR improved bolters to make them interesting in a competitive scene.
Just lower the points cost of Chaos Marines to a more acceptable level. Make it so that there is an interesting decision point between worthless but numerous Cultists or fewer but more powerful CSM. Right now, the metric is heavily skewed in favor of the Cultists
The break even point is 10 pts atm. If you go and determine it by the cp Generation capability.
Either 10 cultists or 5 marines. Mostly because you would field them then as a tax choice, cultists still would probably be picked as one big blob for effectiveness due to stratagems.
I feel it's pretty hard to argue that 5 cultists are as valuable as 10 marines, on the table, though... Unfortunately, this edition seems skewed pretty hard towards CP generation, which creates some pretty awkward balance issues. Especially with this edition's cover, power armor is still okay against small arms fire.
I guess it approaches the problem of the troops tax, where CSM damage output just pretty much never justifies it outside of maybe small games where you're really stretching those points to fill multiple uses :/
Yodhrin wrote: 10 point Marines. We're actually at the stage where people talk seriously about being able to buy a full company(sans gear obviously) for 1000 points.
40K is borked. Fully.
You're not wrong. I blame the pricing of horde armies though. I think 13 pt Marines works okay if a Guardsman is 8 pts. A Space Marine company at 1500 pts seems about right though. That is just the bodies of Marines. You still need to supe them up with weapons and tanks.
Yodhrin wrote: 10 point Marines. We're actually at the stage where people talk seriously about being able to buy a full company(sans gear obviously) for 1000 points.
Reducing points isnt the answer. We should be expecting the "rules writers" to make Marines worth their points. The lack of understanding of their own game is quite telling by the inability to make any Marine faction playable on its own. The key issue is this the mortal wound edition, so durability is irrelevant.
Ah, the old "This is overcosted, this is undercosted" vs. "No, it's the opposite" argument.
I'm pretty sure this fist became an argument back in the olden days when someone at GW said, "We could balance the armies by giving them a points value, like so..."
Though I will be the first to admit that some of the things in Shadowspear are a bit points-pricey on both sides of the box. I think GW tends to see some very situational or 'pretty decent' unit abilities as more valuable in points than their actual feasibility warrants.
I mean, Reivers are... useful in some situations, otherwise they're a relatively mild inconvenience for some to deal with. There's little ways they could improve and be worth their points- maybe add a point of strength or some AP to the knives, or make those bolt carbines both Rapid fire AND assault, or maybe a single-shot grenade launcher pistol with a 12" range for the shock grenades, stacking penalties to morale the longer they stay in melee with a unit, something... otherwise, 100 points for 5 guys that can get to objectives and take them if they're up against some weenie horde and have a Chaplain up their butts... a bit steep in my opinion, worthy of just a little something extra.
Problem is marines are a Jack of all trades in an edition that favours and rewards specialisation and synergy of specialisations.
Gw should play on their joat nature to try and fix them because anyother mod does not balance with other units. Tac and csm squads should probably get special and heavy weapons for free pickable before the game..along these lines of tac flexibility would be fluffy and help em... maybe not this but along these lines
Yodhrin wrote: 10 point Marines. We're actually at the stage where people talk seriously about being able to buy a full company(sans gear obviously) for 1000 points.
40K is borked. Fully.
You're not wrong. I blame the pricing of horde armies though. I think 13 pt Marines works okay if a Guardsman is 8 pts. A Space Marine company at 1500 pts seems about right though. That is just the bodies of Marines. You still need to supe them up with weapons and tanks.
The issue isn't the bottom end, it's the top. When you have stuff like Knights and superheavy tanks, your choices are A; make those rubbish, meaning they won't sell very well, B; give them an appropriate points cost, meaning people will rarely take them(and thus, they won't sell very well), or C; make everything else cheaper to account for the huge power disparities at play, which makes the big stuff seem appealing and in the short term will drive extra sales of the small stuff as people scale up their armies to match.
They've obviously gone with C, and they didn't really have a choice in the matter once they decided to make all the big stuff and flying stuff part of the core system rather than optional expansions to it, but the ballooning size of armies - even ostensibly "elite" ones - is beginning to get properly wonko these days. I mean, I sat down the other day and worked out how many Orks I'd need to buy and paint to run the modern version of my 3rd Ed footslogger army, and it was only marginally fewer miniatures than I'd need to run Orcs & Gobbos in the bad old days of 8th Ed WHFB - you'll recall that situation didn't end well for WHFB :/
Latro_ wrote: Gw should play on their joat nature to try and fix them because anyother mod does not balance with other units. Tac and csm squads should probably get special and heavy weapons for free pickable before the game..along these lines of tac flexibility would be fluffy and help em... maybe not this but along these lines
Odd Question to think about- what if Devastators would be taken as "Troops" options? I mean, maybe with a points increase.
Latro_ wrote: Gw should play on their joat nature to try and fix them because anyother mod does not balance with other units. Tac and csm squads should probably get special and heavy weapons for free pickable before the game..along these lines of tac flexibility would be fluffy and help em... maybe not this but along these lines
Odd Question to think about- what if Devastators would be taken as "Troops" options? I mean, maybe with a points increase.
Then people might take Devastators, because they can sit back on an objective and hold it with their troops priority, but it really wouldn't change a whole lot and wouldn't fix the power armor problem.
drbored wrote: Then people might take Devastators, because they can sit back on an objective and hold it with their troops priority, but it really wouldn't change a whole lot and wouldn't fix the power armor problem.
So, you think the problem is that they're too 'master of naught and jack of all trades', am I understanding? While they're 'pretty decent' at a given skill, when it comes time to fight certain armies- those armies are much better at that given skill and mop the floor with them... am I wrong?
If that's the case, what do you think a solution would be that wouldn't rework Astartes from the ground up?
Cheaper models? Cheaper gear? More fancy tricks/rules?
I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested and would probably be willing to test things out with friends.
drbored wrote: Then people might take Devastators, because they can sit back on an objective and hold it with their troops priority, but it really wouldn't change a whole lot and wouldn't fix the power armor problem.
So, you think the problem is that they're too 'master of naught and jack of all trades', am I understanding? While they're 'pretty decent' at a given skill, when it comes time to fight certain armies- those armies are much better at that given skill and mop the floor with them... am I wrong?
If that's the case, what do you think a solution would be that wouldn't rework Astartes from the ground up?
Cheaper models? Cheaper gear? More fancy tricks/rules?
I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested and would probably be willing to test things out with friends.
Marines NEED to be reworked from the ground up, because the entire edition changed around them and they didn't change. They need a totally different statline.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Marines NEED to be reworked from the ground up, because the entire edition changed around them and they didn't change. They need a totally different statline.
Alternatively, what if Space Marine power armor offset the AP of a weapon by 1 for a single successful wound from a weapon? So basically if your opponent got 2 successful wounds with an AP-1 weapon- you'd get one of them with normal 3+ armor, and one at AP-1. It would make sense like their armor being able to disperse a degree of heat from energy weapons and withstand the kinetic force of solid projectiles or heavy blows.
Tac-Marines hit in overwatch on a 5+? It would make them worth investing in to hold objectives. Or perhaps 'exploding dice'? I'd like to think they'd be good to dig in and hold their ground at a group charging at them, rather than being just as accurate as a conscript when gunning into a charging mob of enemies.
Personally, I think we need to make all Space Marines Primaris Marines- adjust for points obviously, but give every Space Marine 2 wounds and 2 attacks base, do the same with Chaos Marines. Then just drop the word 'Primaris' from them altogether, and now it's "All Marines have 2 attacks and 2 wounds at a minimum".
Also, perhaps a cool idea would be giving some kind of distinct advantage to playing entirely one flavor of Space Marines. I'm not sure even where to begin with this, but perhaps some kind of bonus stratagems, or discounted wargear or upgrades. Maybe requiring you to field a certain 'rank' of Space Marine HQ in order to get those bonuses- so, like a Company Captain out there with a massive force would have the advantage of fielding most of his Company in a decisive battle, it forges the whole narrative of the glorious Space Marine commander surrounded by battle-brothers that have lived for this very moment, fighting with everything they've got...
I don't know, I think my weakness is I think a bit on 'how does this work with the fluff or how could it be justified?'
drbored wrote: Then people might take Devastators, because they can sit back on an objective and hold it with their troops priority, but it really wouldn't change a whole lot and wouldn't fix the power armor problem.
So, you think the problem is that they're too 'master of naught and jack of all trades', am I understanding? While they're 'pretty decent' at a given skill, when it comes time to fight certain armies- those armies are much better at that given skill and mop the floor with them... am I wrong?
If that's the case, what do you think a solution would be that wouldn't rework Astartes from the ground up?
Cheaper models? Cheaper gear? More fancy tricks/rules?
I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested and would probably be willing to test things out with friends.
Marines NEED to be reworked from the ground up, because the entire edition changed around them and they didn't change. They need a totally different statline.
At the VERY LEAST, Marines need +1 attack across the board. Every single power armor, t4 unit needs this boost, from Tactical Marines to Vanguard Vets, and even to Rubric Marines. That is the bare minimum to help them produce the offensive power they need to be viable on the tabletop. Sure, some of those units will also get a points increase, but that would be ok with me because it's the simple stat that matters. A tactical marine or chaos marine getting 1 measly attack while an Ork Boy can get 4 attacks at the same strength and weapon skill is just atrocious.
Next, the big thing they need to do is to rework the entire AP system. In 7th edition, an AP of 5 meant that any enemy that has an armor value of 5 or less doesn't get an armor save against you. Now, an AP of -2 means that an enemy with an armor save of 5+ doesn't get it... but it also means that those with 3+ armor saves now have 5+ armor saves. I'd rather go back to the old system so that Power Armor means something again. The amount of high-AP weapons in the game is just ridiculous and makes it so that it's BETTER to have cheap troops with no armor save at all, rather than to have power armor, because it's likely those high AP weapons don't have a high number of shots to chew through your light infantry, at the very least.
Finally, mortal wounds need to just go away. They're the replacement for the old Instant Death rules. Mortal Wounds are far too numerous and too easy for many factions to get in abundance. What do mortal wounds do? They ignore armor, which means power armor is, once again, useless and gets people to pick cultists over chaos marines, because cultists don't care as much about mortal wounds because they have the bodies to soak them.
In other words, the two things that are in abundance in many 'good' lists (high AP weapons and mortal wound generating units) are the two main things that make power armor so worthless. The thing is, I don't want Chaos Marines and Tactical Marines to get any cheaper than they already are, because holy crap they're cheap! They're just not cheap enough to matter. I'd rather they become *better* on their basic stats and then become more expensive as a result, to bring power armor armies more in line with the elite forces that they're portrayed as.
Well, all the stuff for the new codex and Vigilus Ablaze are probably already all printed by now. They can't change anything at this stage. I think its probably more productive to see what changes they have made and work with that. See what kind of lists and tactics we can come up with.
Yodhrin wrote: 10 point Marines. We're actually at the stage where people talk seriously about being able to buy a full company(sans gear obviously) for 1000 points.
40K is borked. Fully.
You're not wrong. I blame the pricing of horde armies though. I think 13 pt Marines works okay if a Guardsman is 8 pts. A Space Marine company at 1500 pts seems about right though. That is just the bodies of Marines. You still need to supe them up with weapons and tanks.
Wait what th- Okay, can we please have a conversation about this?
It seems like there's some kind of running gag where every few months or so the cost of what guardsmen "should" be keeps going up by a point, and I'd really like to know if I should be laughing or losing faith in the SM players of the board if by December people are trying to argue that Guardsmen should be 12 points.
Yodhrin wrote: 10 point Marines. We're actually at the stage where people talk seriously about being able to buy a full company(sans gear obviously) for 1000 points.
40K is borked. Fully.
You're not wrong. I blame the pricing of horde armies though. I think 13 pt Marines works okay if a Guardsman is 8 pts. A Space Marine company at 1500 pts seems about right though. That is just the bodies of Marines. You still need to supe them up with weapons and tanks.
Wait what th- Okay, can we please have a conversation about this?
It seems like there's some kind of running gag where every few months or so the cost of what guardsmen "should" be keeps going up by a point, and I'd really like to know if I should be laughing or losing faith in the SM players of the board if by December people are trying to argue that Guardsmen should be 12 points.
pfft by december we'll be insisting guardsmen should be 14 points cause of orders
Okay the orders make them shoot 2x so it's really only 7 points and if you give them straken and a priest that is 3x the melee so really that's only like 3 points per guardsman which is a pretty good deal!!!
If we could re-design marines from the ground up, I'd give them something more like the primaris statline, and tweak a bunch of their weapon stats, etc.
But if we wanted to slap on a quick custom rule that could apply to all marines and mostly fix the situation for the time being, then it should be something like this:
Superhuman Astartes are demi-gods. Their bodies and equipment are larger and stronger than those of mere mortals.
Armor saves of 5+ or higher cannot be taken against attacks made by units with this rule, regardless of the weapon they are using. Armor saves of 4+ or higher cannot be taken against attacks made by models with this rule if the attacking weapon has AP-1.
Models with this rule add +1 to their armor save unless the attack has higher strength than their toughness, or ap-3 or better.
Units with this rule can only lose 1 model to morale at a time, unless they are suffering a leadership penalty, in which case they can lose additional models equal to the lost leadership.
The first part restores 5th ed style AP rules for marines, which would fix their ability to kill hordes with small arms and in close combat. This would give a ~33% increase in effectiveness of bolters vs guard, for example. And 16% vs boyz. The line for AP-1 weapons is necessary to have stuff like heavy bolters and autocannons not be worse vs these targets than regular bolters.
The defensive part makes them more durable vs small arms fire, which is currently too efficient. But it doesn't help them vs high strength, high AP weapons that are meant to kill them effectively. This is also a move back towards 5th ed style defensive efficiency.
And lastly, this fixes the problem of 10 man marine units being basically the only thing in the game that actually suffers morale loses, but lets morale killer mechanics still matter.
This rule isn't perfect, but it is simple and would put regular Marines in a much better situation. I'm not claiming it would fix marine armies. It doesn't touch a lot of problems like anti-tank from marine squads. But it would make marines feel more like marines again, and maybe people would need to ask themselves "What if my opponent brings a ton of marines?" when making their lists.
Wait what th- Okay, can we please have a conversation about this?
It seems like there's some kind of running gag where every few months or so the cost of what guardsmen "should" be keeps going up by a point, and I'd really like to know if I should be laughing or losing faith in the SM players of the board if by December people are trying to argue that Guardsmen should be 12 points.
I might say Space Marine weapons and wargear need to be cheaper, and I honestly think we suck in the vehicle department and could use a little help there... but I'd say Space Marines need a minor adjustment, at best- somewhere, be it points or wargear. And as it stands, IG infantry are a bit pricier than they're worth IMHO- at least for the trouble of painting all those dudes and being so limited in their appearance... so my infantry are Tempestus Scions in a Battalion Detachment with a separate spearhead detachment for tanks. I think DKoK are cool, and they might be worth the trouble for their 'cool factor' alone, but... something rather interesting... brief story below, click spoiler tag to read if you're interested...
Spoiler:
Apparently, there was quite the gimmick locally with DKoK- and I don't remember what it was, but apparently there was some combination of things that someone figured out and it made them outright nasty (more so than usual). All of the local power-gamers went balls-out trying to get DKoK... and I can tell you that all of them made some barefoot Chinese recaster's day that month. And then it died off, or got fixed, or the meme got too common, or someone found a counter, or they had the rule wrong, people stopped playing against that list.. I have no idea, but they fell out of favor as quickly as they were hyped up around here.
Punchline: Now every one of these guys except the 2 that had legitimate Forge World DKoK armies are trying to sell them off as 'authentic', despite them actually bragging openly in our shop about them being recasts and the resin being noticeably different- not that we really care, as long as they're buying other stuff and it's our policy that any kind of 'proxy', not matter how close to the real thing, has to be agreed upon by both players...
So FYI, if you see DKoK armies for sale in on eBay, "Fully assembled, only grey primer- brand new"- at the price you'd expect for the real deal? Let's just say the store where I work part-time is debating a ban, because we thought they were joking about blasting them with grey primer and flipping them as 'authentic' for more than they paid, making jokes about "brand new, only used for a couple of months, must sell to pay medical bills"... then they bought out every can of Army Painter Grey in 3 different shops in one day and didn't show up that night to any of the local shops to game.
If you run into this, hit me up. Don't like to discuss where I live and all, won't say "that's them"- but it'd get some of our usual migraines booted, and being honest- I've been looking for an excuse.
Honestly, marines are not in the worst place atm. They have decent armour, good S and T, a reasonable basic weapon, etc. However, I just don't understand that if a Guardsman has 1 wound, how the heck can a marine also have just 1 wound? Leave everything as is and give the basic marine 2W as a starting point.
Baiscally, in a perfect world, you'd forget Primaris and just give the points and stats of them to basic marines with the normal options to upgrade their weapons to las, plas etc. So your basic tactical marine is 17pts, has 2W and 2A, and a 30" AP-1 bolter. Now have your usual allotment of upgrades in heavy and special weapons. They at least would feel like marines should.
Bobthehero wrote: AP weapons of -2 meant Marines had no saves in previous editions
There were no AP-2 weapons in previous editions. AP2 is completely different to AP -2. Apples to oranges.
The closest are the save mods from 2nd Ed, and Marines had the same problem back then as well, except they were 30 points each and never got to take their 3+ saves because almost everything (even Lasguns) had a -1 save mod.
bullyboy wrote: Baiscally, in a perfect world, you'd forget Primaris and just give the points and stats of them to basic marines with the normal options to upgrade their weapons to las, plas etc. So your basic tactical marine is 17pts, has 2W and 2A, and a 30" AP-1 bolter. Now have your usual allotment of upgrades in heavy and special weapons. They at least would feel like marines should.
I feel like they'd keep Intercessors, Inceptors, Suppressors, Molessters, etc. as they are- they sort of have their own battlefield role that functions differently from the standard marines.
Intercessors aren't tacticals, they're best for standing off on an objective and hammering anything that comes within 30 inches.
Reivers aren't Assault Marines, Assault Marines... well, they actually are useful. Reivers just kinda look cool.
Inceptors aren't Assault Marines, I've never had to drill a butthole into an Assault Marine, and then shove a brass rod up that butthole.
Eliminators aren't Scouts, they're your 'assassins' for characters.
Also, have playtested with 'every Marine 2 wounds, 2 attacks base' and the end result isn't as broken as you'd think. Even my friends who played against it said "that is what I would expect from Space Marines, it was far less disappointing and a good challenge" overall.
drbored wrote: Then people might take Devastators, because they can sit back on an objective and hold it with their troops priority, but it really wouldn't change a whole lot and wouldn't fix the power armor problem.
So, you think the problem is that they're too 'master of naught and jack of all trades', am I understanding? While they're 'pretty decent' at a given skill, when it comes time to fight certain armies- those armies are much better at that given skill and mop the floor with them... am I wrong?
If that's the case, what do you think a solution would be that wouldn't rework Astartes from the ground up?
Cheaper models? Cheaper gear? More fancy tricks/rules?
I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested and would probably be willing to test things out with friends.
Marines NEED to be reworked from the ground up, because the entire edition changed around them and they didn't change. They need a totally different statline.
At the VERY LEAST, Marines need +1 attack across the board. Every single power armor, t4 unit needs this boost, from Tactical Marines to Vanguard Vets, and even to Rubric Marines. That is the bare minimum to help them produce the offensive power they need to be viable on the tabletop. Sure, some of those units will also get a points increase, but that would be ok with me because it's the simple stat that matters. A tactical marine or chaos marine getting 1 measly attack while an Ork Boy can get 4 attacks at the same strength and weapon skill is just atrocious.
Next, the big thing they need to do is to rework the entire AP system. In 7th edition, an AP of 5 meant that any enemy that has an armor value of 5 or less doesn't get an armor save against you. Now, an AP of -2 means that an enemy with an armor save of 5+ doesn't get it... but it also means that those with 3+ armor saves now have 5+ armor saves. I'd rather go back to the old system so that Power Armor means something again. The amount of high-AP weapons in the game is just ridiculous and makes it so that it's BETTER to have cheap troops with no armor save at all, rather than to have power armor, because it's likely those high AP weapons don't have a high number of shots to chew through your light infantry, at the very least.
Finally, mortal wounds need to just go away. They're the replacement for the old Instant Death rules. Mortal Wounds are far too numerous and too easy for many factions to get in abundance. What do mortal wounds do? They ignore armor, which means power armor is, once again, useless and gets people to pick cultists over chaos marines, because cultists don't care as much about mortal wounds because they have the bodies to soak them.
In other words, the two things that are in abundance in many 'good' lists (high AP weapons and mortal wound generating units) are the two main things that make power armor so worthless. The thing is, I don't want Chaos Marines and Tactical Marines to get any cheaper than they already are, because holy crap they're cheap! They're just not cheap enough to matter. I'd rather they become *better* on their basic stats and then become more expensive as a result, to bring power armor armies more in line with the elite forces that they're portrayed as.
Honestly I'm not for everyone just getting an extra attack because of the design space around it. In my mind, the way to handle it:
1. Space Marines Tacticals with a consolidated Angels have A1
2. Space Wolves Grey Hunters are A1 but have that Chainsword for an extra attack
3. Deathwatch Vets and Grey Knights get A2, with options to increase their attacks (Falchions or Chainswords). Grey Knights will enjoy the extra attack but don't get the extra LD 4. Everyone that is a Chaos Marine has Vet stats at minimum, with Chosen replacing the dumb Chaos Marine entry
It's pretty on topic with the set being all marines and the Vigilus book being a possible bright spot for Traitor Astartes (More likely they stay garbage and Cultists get yet another nerf making them both trash)
ok ... in that case, here is what I think. Even though I have been a CSM player for life, my take right now is that CSM are fine. As a CSM player, we can either take a base squad of 5 for 65 points or 10 cultists for 50 points. (Takes a deep breath).
If we are saying cultists are cheap, because you can have 3 squads of 10 for 150 points, vs CSM, who need 195 points for 3 squads of 5. Is that 45 points really going to win the game for you? You can't even buy two extra chaos spawn with that. On the flip side though. I think 3 squads of 5 CSM hunkering down in cover on objectives will last a lot longer against small arms fire than 3 squads of 10 cultists. I will be generous and give you 5 more points, so you can have 4 squads of 10 cultists shall we?
A unit of mortars is just 33 points and fires 3d6str 4 shots. 3 units of mortars don't even break 100 points. IG soup lists run them all the time. 3 units of mortars spending turn after turn shelling your 4 squads of 10 cultists in cover (5+ save )vs shelling 3 squads of CSM in cover (2+ save). Which do you think will last longer? My money is on the CSM.
In fact, let's have a mirror matchup. 4 squads of 10 cultists in cover exchanging shots with 3 squads of CSM in cover. I will even let the cultists go first. Everyone is 24 inches apart. The 40 cultists are shooting out 40 shots per turn (initially) with a 4+ to hit, 5+ to wound against a save of 2+ (cover). You kill ... 1 CSM, maybe 2 if you are lucky. Now the 13 or 14 CSM shoot back with bolter discipline at 3+ to hit, 5+ to wound, against a 5+ save (cover). Anyway, 26 shots will work out to 7.7 cultists dead. Morale would probably finish off the remaining 3 in that squad. CSM of 5 per squad don't need to worry about morale. So, one cultists squad dies per turn.
End of 4 turns, the 4 cultist squads are dead, or almost dead. The CSM suffered 1 casualty per turn. They are not even down a squad after 4 rounds of exchanging fire.
So, if I wanted to keep stuff cheap, would I be willing to spend 45 more points so that I can get 3 squads of 5 CSM instead of 4 squads of cultists? From a durability and ability to hunker down and stand on objectives standpoint, I think I would rather take the 3 squads of CSM. Key thing is ... having cultists with their 6+ save gives the imperium soup lists a very obvious target to use all their mortar teams and infantry lasguns... on your cultists! But if you have CSM squads in cover instead, then all those flashlights and mortars are going to be a lot less useful.
But what if they take plasma guns, heavy flamers, etc etc? Well, that's what the rest of your army is for right? 3 squads of CSM are only 195 points. So you have 1805 more points to spend on other much scarier stuff that will draw the attention of their plasma, heavy flamers, lascannons, etc etc. More importantly, now their lasgun and mortars are a lot less effective. If they want to use their heavier weapons to shoot at your basic CSM troop squads rather than the 1805 worth of other nasties you will have, well, I think I wouldn't mind really!
3 or 4 squads of 10 cultists is basically a free gift of points to most armies out there. Anything that even looks at a squad of 10 cultists would probably kill it fairly easily. a bunch of CSM in cover are going to be a lot harder to shift. I just don't see how gifting the opponent 150 worth of cultists to kill is going to be worth the saving of 45 points so that I can buy 2 chaos spawn? I might as well spend 45 more points and make it a lot harder for my opponent to get first strike, and make him take a lot longer to kill those 3 CSM squads.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's even more on topic when Chaos are about to get a new Codex that seems to be little more than Version 1.1 - now with the errata!
in fairness if GW had released a brand new codex we HAD to buy there woulda been complainining about that too. I'm trying to remain optimistic, chaos marines are getting a new mini so GW could suprise us and throw a much needed tweek onto the basic troops. give them a chainsword IN ADDITION to the bolt gun and the codex works a LOT better IMHO
People are always going to complain. But a revamped codex that fixed many of the issues with the 2017 book would have shut up those complaints pretty quickly. It's a missed opportunity to fix a few under-performing units and freshen up some under-used Legion rules.
I can absolutely guarantee you that no matter what was in the new book, people would complain. Even a complete revamp would get either "this sucks, GW still doesn't want Chaos to be good" if the initial impression is that the codex is bad or you'd get people saying "GW is just trying to sell the new models" if the initial codex is that the codex is good.
Eldarain wrote: I am actually really looking forward to the polish they try and put on the turd that is the Word Bearers rules.
Somewhere a GW community staff just cracked his knuckles in anticipation of your challenge. This is what they said last time:
Re-rolling failed Morale tests is great for Chaos Space Marines – the army favours large squads of elite troops, and this ability means that valuable multi-Wound models like Possessed and Chaos Terminators are unlikely to flee at an inopportune moment. This synergizes well with the Dark Apostle, who – thanks to Demagogue – gives nearby units a massive 9 Leadership.
Eldenfirefly wrote: ok ... in that case, here is what I think. Even though I have been a CSM player for life, my take right now is that CSM are fine. As a CSM player, we can either take a base squad of 5 for 65 points or 10 cultists for 50 points. (Takes a deep breath).
If we are saying cultists are cheap, because you can have 3 squads of 10 for 150 points, vs CSM, who need 195 points for 3 squads of 5. Is that 45 points really going to win the game for you? You can't even buy two extra chaos spawn with that. On the flip side though. I think 3 squads of 5 CSM hunkering down in cover on objectives will last a lot longer against small arms fire than 3 squads of 10 cultists. I will be generous and give you 5 more points, so you can have 4 squads of 10 cultists shall we?
A unit of mortars is just 33 points and fires 3d6str 4 shots. 3 units of mortars don't even break 100 points. IG soup lists run them all the time. 3 units of mortars spending turn after turn shelling your 4 squads of 10 cultists in cover (5+ save )vs shelling 3 squads of CSM in cover (2+ save). Which do you think will last longer? My money is on the CSM.
In fact, let's have a mirror matchup. 4 squads of 10 cultists in cover exchanging shots with 3 squads of CSM in cover. I will even let the cultists go first. Everyone is 24 inches apart. The 40 cultists are shooting out 40 shots per turn (initially) with a 4+ to hit, 5+ to wound against a save of 2+ (cover). You kill ... 1 CSM, maybe 2 if you are lucky. Now the 13 or 14 CSM shoot back with bolter discipline at 3+ to hit, 5+ to wound, against a 5+ save (cover). Anyway, 26 shots will work out to 7.7 cultists dead. Morale would probably finish off the remaining 3 in that squad. CSM of 5 per squad don't need to worry about morale. So, one cultists squad dies per turn.
End of 4 turns, the 4 cultist squads are dead, or almost dead. The CSM suffered 1 casualty per turn. They are not even down a squad after 4 rounds of exchanging fire.
So, if I wanted to keep stuff cheap, would I be willing to spend 45 more points so that I can get 3 squads of 5 CSM instead of 4 squads of cultists? From a durability and ability to hunker down and stand on objectives standpoint, I think I would rather take the 3 squads of CSM. Key thing is ... having cultists with their 6+ save gives the imperium soup lists a very obvious target to use all their mortar teams and infantry lasguns... on your cultists! But if you have CSM squads in cover instead, then all those flashlights and mortars are going to be a lot less useful.
But what if they take plasma guns, heavy flamers, etc etc? Well, that's what the rest of your army is for right? 3 squads of CSM are only 195 points. So you have 1805 more points to spend on other much scarier stuff that will draw the attention of their plasma, heavy flamers, lascannons, etc etc. More importantly, now their lasgun and mortars are a lot less effective. If they want to use their heavier weapons to shoot at your basic CSM troop squads rather than the 1805 worth of other nasties you will have, well, I think I wouldn't mind really!
3 or 4 squads of 10 cultists is basically a free gift of points to most armies out there. Anything that even looks at a squad of 10 cultists would probably kill it fairly easily. a bunch of CSM in cover are going to be a lot harder to shift. I just don't see how gifting the opponent 150 worth of cultists to kill is going to be worth the saving of 45 points so that I can buy 2 chaos spawn? I might as well spend 45 more points and make it a lot harder for my opponent to get first strike, and make him take a lot longer to kill those 3 CSM squads.
Obviously all top table csm players are therefore stupid in not fielding csm over Cultists.....
Eldarain wrote: I am actually really looking forward to the polish they try and put on the turd that is the Word Bearers rules.
Somewhere a GW community staff just cracked his knuckles in anticipation of your challenge. This is what they said last time:
Re-rolling failed Morale tests is great for Chaos Space Marines – the army favours large squads of elite troops, and this ability means that valuable multi-Wound models like Possessed and Chaos Terminators are unlikely to flee at an inopportune moment. This synergizes well with the Dark Apostle, who – thanks to Demagogue – gives nearby units a massive 9 Leadership.
Let's see what they dish out this time!
That was seriously stated?
Because last time i checked the moment morale becomes an issue for these units is the moment you know that you fielded to many of them in one squad.
Arachnofiend wrote: Don't be too rough on the community writers, they don't get a say in what the rules are, they're just in charge of making them sound cool.
If you wanna critique their work, try the recent Iron Warriors preview that didn't actually preview anything special for the Iron Warriors. >.>
I've read it, thank you, but the best thing about it was that we will get havocs but they were not previewed with the legion that uses them the most.
What really blew me away was how they wasted text space showing off the Warsmith, an ancient metal model that's going to look horrible next to all of the new stuff. Maybe if they had a cool conversion to show off indicating how to build a Warsmith out of bits from newer kits, sure, but I don't think anything is gained by anyone from those paragraphs.
Arachnofiend wrote: What really blew me away was how they wasted text space showing off the Warsmith, an ancient metal model that's going to look horrible next to all of the new stuff. Maybe if they had a cool conversion to show off indicating how to build a Warsmith out of bits from newer kits, sure, but I don't think anything is gained by anyone from those paragraphs.
it did remind me that mini's still a thing. which isn't bad from a "ohh yeah those old Mini's still exist!" POV
It'll be even more frustrating when the Chaos Marine book has different rules for Berzerkers than the inevitable new kit they'll get when WE get a book.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It'll be even more frustrating when the Chaos Marine book has different rules for Berzerkers than the inevitable new kit they'll get when WE get a book.
assuming we GET a WE book this edition. that said I imagine GW'll likely errata the rules in and likely tell CSM players to snag the new WE codex and use the rules from it, much like they told BA, DA and SW players to do with primaris marines
Bobthehero wrote: AP weapons of -2 meant Marines had no saves in previous editions
There were no AP-2 weapons in previous editions. AP2 is completely different to AP -2. Apples to oranges.
The closest are the save mods from 2nd Ed, and Marines had the same problem back then as well, except they were 30 points each and never got to take their 3+ saves because almost everything (even Lasguns) had a -1 save mod.
What they are saying is the weapons that are currently -2 AP used to be ap3, which meant marines got no armor saves against them (think krack missiles) so any Marine being shot by those weapons has a 1/3 better chance to survive compared to the last edition, and if in hard cover now has a 1/6 better chance. (Same if in soft cover)
Arachnofiend wrote: What really blew me away was how they wasted text space showing off the Warsmith, an ancient metal model that's going to look horrible next to all of the new stuff. Maybe if they had a cool conversion to show off indicating how to build a Warsmith out of bits from newer kits, sure, but I don't think anything is gained by anyone from those paragraphs.
That was actually the best bit of the entire article. Certainly the most informative.
But I don't think you understand what those articles are for. All those links to things in the webstore? That's the point, they're sales vehicles, not significant sources of rules.
Arachnofiend wrote: What really blew me away was how they wasted text space showing off the Warsmith, an ancient metal model that's going to look horrible next to all of the new stuff. Maybe if they had a cool conversion to show off indicating how to build a Warsmith out of bits from newer kits, sure, but I don't think anything is gained by anyone from those paragraphs.
That was actually the best bit of the entire article. Certainly the most informative.
But I don't think you understand what those articles are for. All those links to things in the webstore? That's the point, they're sales vehicles, not significant sources of rules.
I was kinda under the impression that the point of these previews was to sell the Vigilus supplement (and, by extension, the new edition of the codex) not to sell one of the most out-of-date models on the store. It's not even in stock in the American store.
I guess one noteworthy thing in those pictures is that the guy with the rotor cannon appears to be a regular CSM. It doesn't have the feet of the Havoc with the rotor cannon shown earlier. So at the very least this appears to be an option for regular CSM squads as well; not a Havoc exclusive.
They need to bring the fluff back onto the tabletop.
Make it so iron warriors get some kind of boost to their demon forgre or special access to something (make it so a spearhead of iron warriors produced 2 cp instead of 1). That would at least have shown that the iw prefer their heavy stuff.
If thats what the next batch of previews is going to look like then its like yodhrin said, buzzkill....
I'd guess 95% that it will be a 24" heavy 4 S5 AP -1 Dam 1 weapon. A soulreaper cannon minus the inferno bolts. Either 10 points like the heavy bolter, or 8 points like the soulreaper minus the cost of inferno bolts.
I'd guess 95% that it will be a 24" heavy 4 S5 AP -1 Dam 1 weapon. A soulreaper cannon minus the inferno bolts. Either 10 points like the heavy bolter, or 8 points like the soulreaper minus the cost of inferno bolts.
The rogue trader one was 24" Heavy 4 S4 Ap-1 D2:
Spoiler:
I guess the biggest question is if this is actually a 'rotor cannon' or a 'warpreaper' or 'chaosgattler' or whatever.
I'd guess 95% that it will be a 24" heavy 4 S5 AP -1 Dam 1 weapon. A soulreaper cannon minus the inferno bolts. Either 10 points like the heavy bolter, or 8 points like the soulreaper minus the cost of inferno bolts.
That would be a terrible weapon option for havocs honestly. Soulreaper works with thousand Sons because they can move and fire without penalty. 24" + heavy would be a very terrible weapon for havocs, although it would compliment the "5 CSMMSU camping a backfield objective with beta bolter rules" narrative.
Azuza001 wrote: They need to bring the fluff back onto the tabletop.
Make it so iron warriors get some kind of boost to their demon forgre or special access to something (make it so a spearhead of iron warriors produced 2 cp instead of 1). That would at least have shown that the iw prefer their heavy stuff.
Actual Question: Is there a way for Iron Warriors to take their basilisks in 8E? Is there a renegade guard or FW workaround I don't know about? Because stuff like that is an obvious use - and strength - of soup in the service of fluffy mayhem, but I can't remember if renegade guard options exist or I assumed they obviously must.
Also re: CSM sucking: I'd be ok if they all got bolters, bolt pistols + ccw again. 1 attak is garbage (so is 2 S4 AP0 frankly), but I miss my dudes feeling like they were prepared for anything while the lapdogs were stuck with their codex dictates (or the Primaris' extra strict options). Plus it made modeling far easier when everybody was simply armed to da teef
But if we're wishlisting, starting all power armor marines at the Deathwatch stat line would be a good start. Last time I played with my CSM it was vs DW and I was shocked that all his dudes had +1A and +1LD over my 1000+ year old edgelords Same deal in KT, where CSM are lame af while DW have the skills to actually get work done. On top of the tools.
I don't play much Chaos any more- in fact, Kill Team is just an excuse for me to justify being a bit heretical here and there...
... but I'm buying that new kit, it looks like it's way too fun to play around with. I'll probably build a 'meh' Kill-Team, but prioritize building 'cool toys'.
Azuza001 wrote: They need to bring the fluff back onto the tabletop.
Make it so iron warriors get some kind of boost to their demon forgre or special access to something (make it so a spearhead of iron warriors produced 2 cp instead of 1). That would at least have shown that the iw prefer their heavy stuff.
Actual Question: Is there a way for Iron Warriors to take their basilisks in 8E? Is there a renegade guard or FW workaround I don't know about? Because stuff like that is an obvious use - and strength - of soup in the service of fluffy mayhem, but I can't remember if renegade guard options exist or I assumed they obviously must.
Also re: CSM sucking: I'd be ok if they all got bolters, bolt pistols + ccw again. 1 attak is garbage (so is 2 S4 AP0 frankly), but I miss my dudes feeling like they were prepared for anything while the lapdogs were stuck with their codex dictates (or the Primaris' extra strict options). Plus it made modeling far easier when everybody was simply armed to da teef
But if we're wishlisting, starting all power armor marines at the Deathwatch stat line would be a good start. Last time I played with my CSM it was vs DW and I was shocked that all his dudes had +1A and +1LD over my 1000+ year old edgelords Same deal in KT, where CSM are lame af while DW have the skills to actually get work done. On top of the tools.
1: Yes Renegades and Heretics still exist, still have acess to regular basilisks.
2: Yes melee weapon Bolters Boltpistols, would be nice.
Not Online!!! wrote: 1: Yes Renegades and Heretics still exist, still have acess to regular basilisks.
So Iron Warrior players right now can take a spearhead of basilisks to accompany their CSM detachment(s)? I'm surprised I never hear about this, and my IW brother certainly doesn't know about it. Maybe because basilisks secretly suck now? I literally do not know, just wondering if the IW armies of yore can still be a thing, with all the bitterness dripping from this thread. Gonna go out on a limb and say sure, old IW armies of CSM + artillery are legal, but the meta has evolved and all the components of that classic build are overcosted / underperformers.
I've put a few of the models from Shadow Spear together now. They are actually really great. The suppressors are kind of crazy, but very cool in my opinion.
I'm less of a fan of the eliminators, but that's kind of a personal preference thing. I might try converting one of them with a set of reiver legs or something, so they aren't so identical.
Meh, like yesterday, this is less about the Night Lords and more about Vigilus 2.
I don’t get why you would EVER use the Terror Strike stratagem. You’d literally have to charge several units, kill 1, half kill the others in order to benefit from the Ld penalty. And, lets face it, for Raptors and Warp Talons to do that you’re going to need a lot of Raptors and Warp Talons.
If I want to mess with Ld as Chaos, I’ll just run some Butcher Cannons and shoot people to death.
As for the re-roll hits strat. Chances are you’ll be re-rolling 1’s anyway for “free” from a JP Lord. Why would you risk spending 1CP at the end of your movement phase on a unit you then have to hope makes a successful 9” charge. Things like this just annoy me and it makes me feel like they aren’t actually thinking things through in terms of how the game generally works.
Excellent, more leadership shenanigans. Just what the doctor ordered. GW strikes again - make amazing models, give them average rules, and then continually giving them buffs that don't fix the initial problems.
More seriously though, did anyone think chaos would be getting good rules?
and this is why I don't consider GW "game designers" or "rules writers" since these could be fixed with a few damn seconds of thought or understanding of the game.
More seriously though, did anyone think chaos would be getting good rules?
I was hopeful of them getting some cool, interesting and usable rules and detachments.
They are currently 0 for 3 in regards to Vigilus 2 in my eyes. If the book only contains stuff for CSM then I’m at about a 5% chance of buying it right now based on the previews.
Kdash wrote: They are currently 0 for 3 in regards to Vigilus 2 in my eyes. If the book only contains stuff for CSM then I’m at about a 5% chance of buying it right now based on the previews.
The fact that I also play Khorne Daemons is keeping me interested in purchasing, but I have serious doubts they got much that matters beyond a Skulltaker update and the terrain from AOS.
More seriously though, did anyone think chaos would be getting good rules?
I thought maybe they'd at least try to make them useable. Buffing (kind of) a load of units that nobody takes buy giving them the option of throwing away CPs for nothing is bizarre.
There's still a chance they'll mess up and throw in something broken of course. "Ton of fearless cultists detachment" or something. Nothing so far lools like you'd even consider taking it.
More seriously though, did anyone think chaos would be getting good rules?
I thought maybe they'd at least try to make them useable. Buffing (kind of) a load of units that nobody takes buy giving them the option of throwing away CPs for nothing is bizarre.
There's still a chance they'll mess up and throw in something broken of course. "Ton of fearless cultists detachment" or something. Nothing so far lools like you'd even consider taking it.
? Abaddon already makes them fearless. Regardless, cultists took a huge nerf and CSM may be regulated to being fully on the shelf except for very casual games.
I mean, leadership debuffs are flavorful and all but... What do these detachments actually accomplish?
You pay CP in advance and hope to succeed with a 9" charge after deep strike? Or pay CP to get a temporary debuff to the leadership of units right next to yours after you successfully destroyed on of them with Raptors?
What on earth is going on. I mean they could have given these rules out for free without conditions and I still would struggle to ever find a use for them.
The stratagem LD debuff works for all your raptorial guys. So if one of them kills a unit you play the strat and all your other guys who didn't kill their targets (because they're raptors) get a LD debuff aura.
It's still useless, but not so useless as saying that you spend CPs to debuff the LD of an enemy unit that you already killed.
I mean, the stratagem also allows you to re-roll ALL hit-rolls in range. Use it on a maxed out raptor squad for some decent punch, maybe try charging a screen after for some punchy action
Mandragola wrote: The stratagem LD debuff works for all your raptorial guys. So if one of them kills a unit you play the strat and all your other guys who didn't kill their targets (because they're raptors) get a LD debuff aura.
It's still useless, but not so useless as saying that you spend CPs to debuff the LD of an enemy unit that you already killed.
The problem is though, that you’d no only have to kill 1 unit completely, but, you’d also need to have had enough attacks/shooting to kill a couple of models from the other units you tag.
I always thought it’d be cool to run Night Lords with Nurgle Banners etc etc to stack Ld penalties, but, when everything needs to make a 9” charge to even begin to use the de-buffs it becomes labour some and difficult to reply and replicate game after game.
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RearAdmiralSnuffles wrote: I mean, the stratagem also allows you to re-roll ALL hit-rolls in range. Use it on a maxed out raptor squad for some decent punch, maybe try charging a screen after for some punchy action
So, essentially, Bolt Pistols followed by Chainsword attacks, or just Lightening Claw attacks then.
Jacob29 wrote: cool new heads shown off for the CSM set, different to the original horned one showed off.
Thats an old plastic kit head (also on an old plastic marine, I dont think they painted up an entire army of each legion for photos, so theres still old models kicking around in the background.)
RearAdmiralSnuffles wrote: I mean, the stratagem also allows you to re-roll ALL hit-rolls in range. Use it on a maxed out raptor squad for some decent punch, maybe try charging a screen after for some punchy action
Right, but they also gave you a terrible special character who gives rerolls to hit, and anyway normal lords do the same thing.
Rerolls are available all over the place. It's just such a lazy mechanic to give out when they can't think of anything else.
Instead of complaining here, contact the GW rules team and explain what it is you think is wrong. If enough people do this, they will rethink what they're offering.
RearAdmiralSnuffles wrote: I mean, the stratagem also allows you to re-roll ALL hit-rolls in range. Use it on a maxed out raptor squad for some decent punch, maybe try charging a screen after for some punchy action
Right, but they also gave you a terrible special character who gives rerolls to hit, and anyway normal lords do the same thing.
Rerolls are available all over the place. It's just such a lazy mechanic to give out when they can't think of anything else.
Yeah I guess. At this point, I am more hoping for a rework of some key CSM units. Like, even if these bonuses were free, I still would have a hard time justifying raptors in a world with shining spears, acolyte hybrids, ect, ect
God this is discouraging... the only thing I'm holding out hope for is that the renegade warband traits are halfway decent. That's it. At this rate, Chaos will have a ton of extra options but none of them will be worth taking.
I love the whole idea of spending tons of CP and points to get -6 leadership on a unit just for my opponent to spend 2 cp to auto pass.
Togusa wrote: Instead of complaining here, contact the GW rules team and explain what it is you think is wrong. If enough people do this, they will rethink what they're offering.
That is the email you can use. Please remember to be courteous, you'll catch more files with honey, than vinegar.
100% agree. I send a pretty long, scathing (but polite) email with a load of suggestions after the LVO stream weekend, and I was pretty pleased when I tuned into the GT Finals that a fair few of my suggestions and remarks into certain things had been addressed/were being visually worked on and referred to by the team.
However, in this case, I would probably initially direct the feedback to both the rules team and the community team. Likely there are other, more impressive detachments in the background (which we’ll find out about through youtube reviews and leaks). IF this is the case then we need them to start previewing useful things alongside the extreme fluffy things in order to obtain some form of balance and retain the hype.
However, if it turns out that the entire set of detachments is as bad as the 3 so far, then, I won’t be buying it and will be feeding back as such along with a long list of suggestions… Not that it’ll change anything in the short term.
Vicious descent has to be the most useless thing GW have ever written by the way. You pay the CP to activate it in the movement phase, on a deepstriking unit. You pay CP to get rerolls before you even know if you made the charge or not.
Jacob29 wrote: cool new heads shown off for the CSM set, different to the original horned one showed off.
Thats an old plastic kit head (also on an old plastic marine, I dont think they painted up an entire army of each legion for photos, so theres still old models kicking around in the background.)
The only thing vicious descent is good for is if you give your raptors special weapons. And it’s not worth 2 cp. they needed a +1 or 2 to charge range stratagem.
However remember that all these detachments come with a relic and warlord trait as well so I’m hopeful that of all these new detachments at least one will buff us
topaxygouroun i wrote: Vicious descent has to be the most useless thing GW have ever written by the way. You pay the CP to activate it in the movement phase, on a deepstriking unit. You pay CP to get rerolls before you even know if you made the charge or not.
Yup.
To be fair, now that people are adding infiltrators to their armies, you'll be able to spend that CP comfortably in the knowledge that it's impossible to make the charge.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Vicious descent has to be the most useless thing GW have ever written by the way. You pay the CP to activate it in the movement phase, on a deepstriking unit. You pay CP to get rerolls before you even know if you made the charge or not.
Yup.
To be fair, now that people are adding infiltrators to their armies, you'll be able to spend that CP comfortably in the knowledge that it's impossible to make the charge.
This being the biggest issue for me, every imperial army now has a 12" you fail bubble they can drop nearly anywhere that could be called useful during deployment.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Vicious descent has to be the most useless thing GW have ever written by the way. You pay the CP to activate it in the movement phase, on a deepstriking unit. You pay CP to get rerolls before you even know if you made the charge or not.
Yup.
To be fair, now that people are adding infiltrators to their armies, you'll be able to spend that CP comfortably in the knowledge that it's impossible to make the charge.
This being the biggest issue for me, every imperial army now has a 12" you fail bubble they can drop nearly anywhere that could be called useful during deployment.
The simple answer is that you *don't* spend the CP in that situation. But, that also means that if you're seeing a lot of Infiltrators in your meta, you're not going to take Raptors or Warp talons at all in your list, which means the Host Raptorial is even more useless.
I would normally be the type to say 'let's way for the full rules before making snap judgements' but I've been burned by GW with Chaos Marines for 10 years. I have zero faith that Vigilus Ablaze or any of the new units will actually make this army good.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Vicious descent has to be the most useless thing GW have ever written by the way. You pay the CP to activate it in the movement phase, on a deepstriking unit. You pay CP to get rerolls before you even know if you made the charge or not.
Yup.
You can shoot with 3 special weapons and reroll everything. Maybe 3 meltaguns into an Eldar flyer. No Altiaoc -1 to hit within 12" and send 3 meltaguns into it.
Vicious Descent is very situational. Obviously, it's aimed at Warp Talons, allowing them to deep strike with rerolls on all hits and wounds.
The challenge is making the charge from 9 inches, similar to a Bloodletter Bomb (but without the +1 to charge from a Daemonic instrument. Giving them Mark of Khorne and putting them near something with Locus of Rage could be a way to make it work, but... why not just use Bloodletters at that point? Mobility after the assault?
There's either going to be some other mechanic which improves the odds of making a charge, or this will just make Warp Talons that much less desirable.
I am whelmed. Not sure why they're going with the low effort reveals when there is most certainly more to talk about than just these meh strats.
It's important to note that none of these are "Night Lords" or "Iron Warriors" strats. They are generic for any legion and only themed to the ones they're promoting in the article.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Vicious descent has to be the most useless thing GW have ever written by the way. You pay the CP to activate it in the movement phase, on a deepstriking unit. You pay CP to get rerolls before you even know if you made the charge or not.
Yup.
You can shoot with 3 special weapons and reroll everything. Maybe 3 meltaguns into an Eldar flyer. No Altiaoc -1 to hit within 12" and send 3 meltaguns into it.
No, just the base -1 to hit the model comes with and probably another -1 from a stratagem. You hit on 5s, rerolling 1s and 2s, then wound on a 3+. Result: nothing much.
Still better than turning up out of range of some infiltrators though.
techsoldaten wrote: Vicious Descent is very situational. Obviously, it's aimed at Warp Talons, allowing them to deep strike with rerolls on all hits and wounds.
The challenge is making the charge from 9 inches, similar to a Bloodletter Bomb (but without the +1 to charge from a Daemonic instrument. Giving them Mark of Khorne and putting them near something with Locus of Rage could be a way to make it work, but... why not just use Bloodletters at that point? Mobility after the assault?
There's either going to be some other mechanic which improves the odds of making a charge, or this will just make Warp Talons that much less desirable.
Raptors might benefit more being they'll have rerolls to hit on shooting and melee.
Daedalus81 wrote: I am whelmed. Not sure why they're going with the low effort reveals when there is most certainly more to talk about than just these meh strats.
It's important to note that none of these are "Night Lords" or "Iron Warriors" strats. They are generic for any legion and only themed to the ones they're promoting in the article.
Not Online!!! wrote: 1: Yes Renegades and Heretics still exist, still have acess to regular basilisks.
So Iron Warrior players right now can take a spearhead of basilisks to accompany their CSM detachment(s)? I'm surprised I never hear about this, and my IW brother certainly doesn't know about it. Maybe because basilisks secretly suck now? I literally do not know, just wondering if the IW armies of yore can still be a thing, with all the bitterness dripping from this thread. Gonna go out on a limb and say sure, old IW armies of CSM + artillery are legal, but the meta has evolved and all the components of that classic build are overcosted / underperformers.
3: well, spike tax must exist.
QFT
Actually, you pay less for a spearhead of that kind (an R&H spearhead with 1 commander ) then a AM counterpart. Mainproblem is you won't get traits on the stuff in there, but frankly it isn't the worst longrange firepower you could buy out of the R&H list.
The main problem why you don't see R&H is mostly due to innate (read non AM/CSM) units sucking 95% off the time.
techsoldaten wrote: Vicious Descent is very situational. Obviously, it's aimed at Warp Talons, allowing them to deep strike with rerolls on all hits and wounds.
The challenge is making the charge from 9 inches, similar to a Bloodletter Bomb (but without the +1 to charge from a Daemonic instrument. Giving them Mark of Khorne and putting them near something with Locus of Rage could be a way to make it work, but... why not just use Bloodletters at that point? Mobility after the assault?
There's either going to be some other mechanic which improves the odds of making a charge, or this will just make Warp Talons that much less desirable.
Raptors might benefit more being they'll have rerolls to hit on shooting and melee.
well they would, if, and that is a big one, their price point wouldn't be so meeeeeeeeeh
The CS trait looks great till you realise its replacing something like AL's -1 to hit for the potential of maybe getting 1cp back a turn.
People will literally soup up somehow to have a durable mop up unit be 'crimson slaughter' to use this with the rest of the army being something else ofc
Well, there are a couple of amusing things about these previews/leaks/rumors:
1) The gatling gun being Heavy 8 AP-1 D1 follows along with the Chaos Space Marine tradition of the addition of the adjective "reaper" making a weapon 1/2 as effective as it's "non-Reaper" equivalent.
Reaper Autocannon = Autocannon that does 1 damage instead of 2.
Soulreaper = Rotor gun that does 4 shots instead of 8.
LOL.
2) Chaos marines now have a psychic power and a stratagem called "Prescience."
Instead of complaining here, contact the GW rules team and explain what it is you think is wrong. If enough people do this, they will rethink what they're offering.
That is the email you can use. Please remember to be courteous, you'll catch more files with honey, than vinegar.
That’s fair, personally I’ve never tried to send them a list of my complaints.
However at this point I’m not sure what I could say. I mean, this is the company that designed AoS and actually thought it was good, and then they doubled down on that stupidity and ported over most of the rules to 40k.
You know when somebody says something so profoundly stupid that you don’t even know how far back you need to go to correct them? It would be like arguing with a Flat Earther or Anti-vaxer. All I could say would be to rewrite the entire game.
That recognizing Heretic Astartes poster gave a laugh though.
Instead of complaining here, contact the GW rules team and explain what it is you think is wrong. If enough people do this, they will rethink what they're offering.
That is the email you can use. Please remember to be courteous, you'll catch more files with honey, than vinegar.
That’s fair, personally I’ve never tried to send them a list of my complaints.
However at this point I’m not sure what I could say. I mean, this is the company that designed AoS and actually thought it was good, and then they doubled down on that stupidity and ported over most of the rules to 40k.
You know when somebody says something so profoundly stupid that you don’t even know how far back you need to go to correct them? It would be like arguing with a Flat Earther or Anti-vaxer. All I could say would be to rewrite the entire game.
That recognizing Heretic Astartes poster gave a laugh though.
I sent in a list of ideas I had for this army, they may not be able to do much now, but in the future for 9th age or whatever it will be called, these ideas could be used.
Dear lord the Red Corsair battalion is insane, especially when you consider how garbage cultists are now.
8CP, 11 with the bonus for being battle forged and not only that but they get a master craft bolter with 6 shots when standing still and a S9 melta gun if something gets close.
Everything here is what the legions should have been. The purge stratagem has Iron Warriors written all over it lol. The Scourged strat is Night Lord lol. I guess the good news is you can just run these instead now lol. Kind of sucks to lose out on VoTLW though.
This demonstrates that GW can write good rules, blows my mind that they wrote these while the old trash traits still exist though. No way the rules team is capable of keeping a straight face on this.
stormcraft wrote: Yea the Red Corsair Battalion could become a Chaos Staple
Yeah, I fully expect to see the Heretical 17 in a lot of lists. 2x Champs with Combi-Bolters and 3x 5 CSM squads w/ Heavy Bolters and Combi Champs for 375 and 8 CP? Yes, please.
Latro_ wrote: The CS trait looks great till you realise its replacing something like AL's -1 to hit for the potential of maybe getting 1cp back a turn.
People will literally soup up somehow to have a durable mop up unit be 'crimson slaughter' to use this with the rest of the army being something else ofc
You forgot the morale immunity they have.
They once again did what Word Bearers want to do but better.
Also you can still run the more limited Detachments and still receive extra CP for Red Corsairs. All it does is make Chaos Marines a tax rather than being useful for anything.
So basically they gave Chaos the answer to the Loyal 32: The Red 17 (3x5 CSM squads and two HQ).
This is fething insulting to anyone who plays Traitor Legions, like seriously. I can't even begin to describe how pissed I am about this. It nearly undoes any excitement at all I had for the new models.
stormcraft wrote: Yea the Red Corsair Battalion could become a Chaos Staple
Yeah, I fully expect to see the Heretical 17 in a lot of lists. 2x Champs with Combi-Bolters and 3x 5 CSM squads w/ Heavy Bolters and Combi Champs for 375 and 8 CP? Yes, please.
Why pick champs when you can pick warpsmiths? Or socerers?
Wayniac wrote: So basically they gave Chaos the answer to the Loyal 32: The Red 17 (3x5 CSM squads and two HQ).
This is fething insulting to anyone who plays Traitor Legions, like seriously. I can't even begin to describe how pissed I am about this. It nearly undoes any excitement at all I had for the new models.
Who would win:
10'000 + years off veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Latro_ wrote: The CS trait looks great till you realise its replacing something like AL's -1 to hit for the potential of maybe getting 1cp back a turn.
People will literally soup up somehow to have a durable mop up unit be 'crimson slaughter' to use this with the rest of the army being something else ofc
You forgot the morale immunity they have.
They once again did what Word Bearers want to do but better.
Wayniac wrote: So basically they gave Chaos the answer to the Loyal 32: The Red 17 (3x5 CSM squads and two HQ).
This is fething insulting to anyone who plays Traitor Legions, like seriously. I can't even begin to describe how pissed I am about this. It nearly undoes any excitement at all I had for the new models.
Who would win:
10'000 + years off veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Wayniac wrote: So basically they gave Chaos the answer to the Loyal 32: The Red 17 (3x5 CSM squads and two HQ).
This is fething insulting to anyone who plays Traitor Legions, like seriously. I can't even begin to describe how pissed I am about this. It nearly undoes any excitement at all I had for the new models.
Who would win:
10'000 + years off veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
How isn't this a meme yet?
It is my friend , it is.
Except maybee alpha legion comes out of hiding and just tops this, and then they will get nerfed again until they hide!
This almost makes me wonder if there's some kind of internal directive, maybe a gypsy curse on Games Workshop, whereby with every release if they give the players one thing that they ask for they are compelled to royally gak the bed on some other aspect to undermine it.
Releases that get in-depth, cool rules that are intelligently designed with internal balance in mind aren't allowed to get any new models.
Releases that put out all the models people have been clamoring for, replacing core troops and fan favorite characters instead of leaving those fugly and old and slapping on shiny new elites and new characters nobody asked for get incredibly lazy, terrible rules to back them up.
Releases that give loyalist space marines have so much player demand behind them that GW is actually compelled to give them hideous fluff, models, and rules just to compensate.
the_scotsman wrote: This almost makes me wonder if there's some kind of internal directive, maybe a gypsy curse on Games Workshop, whereby with every release if they give the players one thing that they ask for they are compelled to royally gak the bed on some other aspect to undermine it.
Releases that get in-depth, cool rules that are intelligently designed with internal balance in mind aren't allowed to get any new models.
Releases that put out all the models people have been clamoring for, replacing core troops and fan favorite characters instead of leaving those fugly and old and slapping on shiny new elites and new characters nobody asked for get incredibly lazy, terrible rules to back them up.
Releases that give loyalist space marines have so much player demand behind them that GW is actually compelled to give them hideous fluff, models, and rules just to compensate.
It's like when you use Wish in D&D. The DM is obligated to twist it to feth you over.
"I wish for a million gold pieces!"
*They come from the king's treasury and his guards are after you*
"I wish to be immortal!"
*You turn into a statue*
Same thing here. GW fix Chaos Marines. "Okay, we'll just give it to renegades because feth Traitor Legoins"
zinch wrote: Oh, c'mon! The Red corsairs trait is super busted and there's already people complaining
Yeah, do you know why? If you did I don't think you would have posted this.
It isn't busted because of how bad Chaos Marines are as a unit. We can effectively get the same from a double Battalion of Renegades & Heretics.
You get 8CP for each battalion and ALL your army can advance and charge for only 45 points over a cultist battalion and you get to upgrade your cultists to CSM for your troubles. Yeah, it's realy bad.
I guess people can be upset if they play another legion, but that is another issue (I play my own chapter so I can change chapter tactics as I want, but I understand that not everyone is willing to)
Wayniac wrote: So basically they gave Chaos the answer to the Loyal 32: The Red 17 (3x5 CSM squads and two HQ).
This is fething insulting to anyone who plays Traitor Legions, like seriously. I can't even begin to describe how pissed I am about this. It nearly undoes any excitement at all I had for the new models.
In The Lords of Silence a renegade CSM is bitter because he's had more life experience than many original Legion Death Guard, and wonders if he's thrown in his lot with the right bunch of traitors. It's pretty funny.
Wayniac wrote: So basically they gave Chaos the answer to the Loyal 32: The Red 17 (3x5 CSM squads and two HQ).
This is fething insulting to anyone who plays Traitor Legions, like seriously. I can't even begin to describe how pissed I am about this. It nearly undoes any excitement at all I had for the new models.
Then run your legionaries with Red Corsair rules.
Or field a red corsair support battalion?
They are pirates and mercs afterall, heck abbadoff has bought Huron out to help him in the newer fluff .
zinch wrote: Oh, c'mon! The Red corsairs trait is super busted and there's already people complaining
Yeah, do you know why? If you did I don't think you would have posted this.
It isn't busted because of how bad Chaos Marines are as a unit. We can effectively get the same from a double Battalion of Renegades & Heretics.
You get 8CP for each battalion and ALL your army can advance and charge for only 45 points over a cultist battalion and you get to upgrade your cultists to CSM for your troubles. Yeah, it's realy bad.
I guess people can be upset if they play another legion, but that is another issue (I play my own chapter so I can change chapter tactics as I want, but I understand that not everyone is willing to)
Which is why I made mention of Renegades and Heretics. Double battalion works.
the_scotsman wrote: This almost makes me wonder if there's some kind of internal directive, maybe a gypsy curse on Games Workshop, whereby with every release if they give the players one thing that they ask for they are compelled to royally gak the bed on some other aspect to undermine it.
Releases that get in-depth, cool rules that are intelligently designed with internal balance in mind aren't allowed to get any new models.
Releases that put out all the models people have been clamoring for, replacing core troops and fan favorite characters instead of leaving those fugly and old and slapping on shiny new elites and new characters nobody asked for get incredibly lazy, terrible rules to back them up.
Releases that give loyalist space marines have so much player demand behind them that GW is actually compelled to give them hideous fluff, models, and rules just to compensate.
It's like when you use Wish in D&D. The DM is obligated to twist it to feth you over.
"I wish for a million gold pieces!"
*They come from the king's treasury and his guards are after you*
"I wish to be immortal!"
*You turn into a statue*
Same thing here. GW fix Chaos Marines. "Okay, we'll just give it to renegades because feth Traitor Legoins"
"Games Workshop we need you to fix the problems with power armor"
"no, not hit rerolls, with Power Armor."
"Not nerfs to things people use instead of power armor, fix power armor"
"Not specialist detachments, just fix basic power armor units please."
topaxygouroun i wrote: Now what's the least useless HQ tax to make the "Raiding 17" mandatory MSU battalion?
Can't you take daemon princes and stuff? I don't see why you need to look at it as a tax at all. Chaos HQs are kind of the good thing about the army.
I mean the tactic is that you get to advance and charge. That seems like it would be decent on a daemon prince, or maybe somebody withon a bike or jump pack.
never happened sadly.
