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Post by: spiralingcadaver
So, as someone with investments in Night Lords and Red Corsairs...
Vicious Decent actually looked okay for a triple special weapon squad dropping in, until you realize that Slaanesh can buy another round of attacks for the same price. I guess you could buy it, add a mark of khorne, and that?
Without a Trace is not-quite-NL stratagem, again?
The Red Corsairs, a hodgepodge of marines--many of which were shanghaied--that are unified under Huron with AFAIK pretty much nothing else holding them together other than being evil space marines in the same part of space, have excellent command infrastructure?
Huron apparently has a whole bunch of techs to build one fancy combi melta? Like, no mention of Valthex, his named ex-Master of the Forge with a(n ugly old) model? And apparently some relics don't have any story other than people work hard to make a cool weapon? And its major stat improvements are at odds with the RC trait?
I mean, I'll use these new rules, but they're pretty dumb.
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Post by: Daedalus81
I'm pretty stoked to throw an easy 8 CP at my Thousand Sons.
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Post by: topaxygouroun i
Mandragola wrote:
Can't you take daemon princes and stuff? I don't see why you need to look at it as a tax at all. Chaos HQs are kind of the good thing about the army.
I mean the tactic is that you get to advance and charge. That seems like it would be decent on a daemon prince, or maybe somebody withon a bike or jump pack.
Pretty good idea actually, but I would still reserve the daemon princes to be from Thousand Sons for free 4++ and the extra spell.
I wonder now if this could expand to a red corsairs brigade somehow cheap-ish. With advance + charge, playing 3 units of msu bikers in fast with combi bolters could give some nice dual purpose units that can shoot 16 shots at 24" after moving, and can also advance + charge on a 14" move platform for 70ish points a unit, and block an enemy shooter from being able to shoot next turn... Are there any cheap elites and heavy supports we can use? Single mutilators perhaps?
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Post by: Not Online!!!
topaxygouroun i wrote:Mandragola wrote:
Can't you take daemon princes and stuff? I don't see why you need to look at it as a tax at all. Chaos HQs are kind of the good thing about the army.
I mean the tactic is that you get to advance and charge. That seems like it would be decent on a daemon prince, or maybe somebody withon a bike or jump pack.
Pretty good idea actually, but I would still reserve the daemon princes to be from Thousand Sons for free 4++ and the extra spell.
I wonder now if this could expand to a red corsairs brigade somehow cheap-ish. With advance + charge, playing 3 units of msu bikers in fast with combi bolters could give some nice dual purpose units that can shoot 16 shots at 24" after moving, and can also advance + charge on a 14" move platform for 70ish points a unit, and block an enemy shooter from being able to shoot next turn... Are there any cheap elites and heavy supports we can use? Single mutilators perhaps?
Warpsmiths? Cheap mostly, Other than that sorcerers?
DP's certainly would be a more premium version and hike the price to a point of CP normalization. On the otherhand DPs still are such great beeings rulewise that why not.
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Post by: cole1114
Red Corsairs is absolutely ridiculous. The fact they keep the renegades tactic of advancing and charging on top of the ridiculous amount of extra cp is just... way too far. Getting 24CP for two battalions and a 3 knight superheavy detachment is gross.
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Post by: Galef
topaxygouroun i wrote:So you're telling me I have to play Renegades from now on...
8CP battalions. So that's why I would have to buy the new CSM boxes... I see, GW. I see.
I mean, there's nothing wrong with using your existing Legion scheme to represent "new recruits" that recently joined the Legion and then use the Renegades rules for them.
Think of it in the same way as Successor Chapters
-
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Post by: Daedalus81
 cole1114 wrote:Red Corsairs is absolutely ridiculous. The fact they keep the renegades tactic of advancing and charging on top of the ridiculous amount of extra cp is just... way too far. Getting 24CP for two battalions and a 3 knight superheavy detachment is gross.
That's a lot of CP you'd never use in a list like that...
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
 Lum wrote:I love how the Flawless Cloak does the exact same as the Black Templar relic, only gives an additional bonus of +1A. 
Well main thing to keep in mind is that you can pay a hefty 3CP to make the Black Templar a Chapter Master. We also don't know what that particular Renegade Chapter does yet whereas we do at least know Black Templars can reroll charges.
Not that it is a justification or anything, but I would like to pretend that GW had the Chapter Master strategem in mind.
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Post by: BrianDavion
a week from now at the GW HQ.
"TED! THE NEW ABADDON MODEL ISN'T SELLING AS WELL IS EXPECTED!"
"Well damnit, why?"
"I dunno but sales of the Huron Blackheart model is up"
"Well guess this legion focus was silly, back to our renegade fixation"
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Post by: topaxygouroun i
2 Chaos Sorcerers (196)
3 x 5 CSM (195)
A total of 389 pts will net me 8 CP and 4 more casts in my thousand sons list, plus three sacrificial CSM units that can take up a backfield objective or advance + charge something that shoots to block them next turn.
add another battalion of daemons with 30 pink horrors, 2 x 10 brimstones, a changecaster and a changeling for 435 points and that's another 5 CP, 2 more throwaway units, more casts, a 6+++ aura and one big fat block of horrors.
That's 824 points for 4 psykers, 70 bodies and 13 CP. Leaves me with 1175 points to build my Thousand Sons battalion for a total of 21 CP to spend double fighting with my tzaangors.
Yup, seems legit. I dig it.
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Post by: Boss Salvage
 As a renegade player since 2006, I never anticipated such a wave of renegade recruits would follow the redux of the CSM line 
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Post by: Nurglitch
Is this the point in the thread where we draw conclusions from incomplete information? Ugh, I'm so envious of GW that this is 151 pages.
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Post by: topaxygouroun i
 Nurglitch wrote:Is this the point in the thread where we draw conclusions from incomplete information? Ugh, I'm so envious of GW that this is 151 pages.
Sounds long enough. The thing is, when you starve for 10 years, any sort of actual meat instead of bones served to you starts to look like a filet royale.
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Post by: Red Corsair
I think it's 391, I almost made the same mistake by subtracting 11 from 400 instead of 9 
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Post by: topaxygouroun i
 Red Corsair wrote:
I think it's 391, I almost made the same mistake by subtracting 11 from 400 instead of 9
I swear I've had higher education in my life :(
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Post by: Red Corsair
Like I said, I almost did the same thing trying to be quick, but I always double check because I am used to making so many errors
Don't sweat it
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Post by: RearAdmiralSnuffles
Dudeface wrote:Don't forget that corsairs don't get access to veterans of the long war, losing out on the most useful stratagem
What, why?
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Post by: Wayniac
Also, people saying "JUST WAIT FOR THE WHOLE BOOK" have thus far been proven to be wrong just about every single time when everyone's fears/issues are just proven to be right.
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Post by: Kirasu
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Post by: Darkseid
Wayniac wrote:Also, people saying "JUST WAIT FOR THE WHOLE BOOK" have thus far been proven to be wrong just about every single time when everyone's fears/issues are just proven to be right.
I heard that horde armies will be the big losers of the 8th edition; and look where we are now.
Yeah, that’s right: Wait for the whole book; and then some.
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Post by: BrotherGecko
Wayniac wrote:Also, people saying "JUST WAIT FOR THE WHOLE BOOK" have thus far been proven to be wrong just about every single time when everyone's fears/issues are just proven to be right.
......I am annoyed that I never noticed that lol.
Renegades were shown early because they are losing the hype. I haven't been on their FB page but it can not look good. I am guessing only the Renegades got new stuff.
Though its pretty crazy they elevated the Red Corsairs trait which was already probably the best and left the crap the same.
I can not imagine the sales team, marketing team or miniature design team is too happy with the turd the rules team plopped out.
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Post by: Drudge Dreadnought
So I guess the new CSM meta will be about using red corsair detachments to provide CPs for slaaneshi obilits in another detachment to double shoot+votlw with?
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Post by: topaxygouroun i
 Kirasu wrote:
That's all the more reason to play them as Raiding 17 rather than an actual detachment with purpose.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
I like the exclusive Purge strategem. Get a rid of that annoying tarpit strategy and enables Lords and Daemon Princes to really do their thing.
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Post by: Not Online!!!
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:So I guess the new CSM meta will be about using red corsair detachments to provide CPs for slaaneshi obilits in another detachment to double shoot+ votlw with?
Nope, i think Oblits will get phased out due to the price hike. Atleast sofar the results we got over at the tactica were very meeh.
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Post by: stormcraft
Well, the fact that the new renegade traits are so much better than all le the old stuff only increases the disappointment that they didnt rewrite the whole book, or at least the traits/core army rules
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Post by: Not Online!!!
stormcraft wrote:Well, the fact that the new renegade traits are so much better than alle the old stuff only affirms the disappointment that the, didnt rewrite the whole book, or at least the traits/core army rules
<you meant fixed.
Then again maybee they hired the Stuttgart planers
>
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Post by: zend
Entire problem would be solved if GW would stop allowing soup lists altogether, or better yet, remove the stupid CP and Stratagem systems altogether.
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Post by: Not Online!!!
 zend wrote:Entire problem would be solved if GW would stop allowing soup lists altogether, or better yet, remove the stupid CP and Stratagem systems altogether.
STOP MAKING SENSE!
THAT IS TO RADICAL!!!
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Post by: Daedalus81
Wayniac wrote:Also, people saying "JUST WAIT FOR THE WHOLE BOOK" have thus far been proven to be wrong just about every single time when everyone's fears/issues are just proven to be right.
k.
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Post by: Wayniac
Drudge Dreadnought wrote:So I guess the new CSM meta will be about using red corsair detachments to provide CPs for slaaneshi obilits in another detachment to double shoot+ votlw with?
From the competitive crowd yeah, I'm sure we will only see min Red Corsair units to get massive amounts of CP
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Post by: Daedalus81
Not Online!!! wrote: zend wrote:Entire problem would be solved if GW would stop allowing soup lists altogether, or better yet, remove the stupid CP and Stratagem systems altogether.
STOP MAKING SENSE!
THAT IS TO RADICAL!!!
Removing scores of pages of rules and a system that people largely enjoy *isn't* radical?
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Post by: Wayniac
 Daedalus81 wrote:Not Online!!! wrote: zend wrote:Entire problem would be solved if GW would stop allowing soup lists altogether, or better yet, remove the stupid CP and Stratagem systems altogether.
STOP MAKING SENSE!
THAT IS TO RADICAL!!!
Removing scores of pages of rules and a system that people largely enjoy *isn't* radical?
Removing something bad for the game is radical?
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Post by: small_gods
Is it bad for the game though?
Or are there some tweeks needed to certain units and stratergems? Is it bad that gsc and nids can work together, is it bad that csm can bring some daemons? Or is it just AM that have super cheap battalions that without the CP outperform all other troops point for point?
Removing something bad for the game is radical?
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Post by: Arachnofiend
Man, they really should have taken the opportunity to fix up the old legion traits with this book. They're reprinting them anyways, might as well boost them up with the new design philosophy so they don't look as bland and weak next to the new renegade traits.
On the other hand, the people who are more upset to see good rules for Chaos than they were to see the bad ones are extremely funny.
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
 Arachnofiend wrote:Man, they really should have taken the opportunity to fix up the old legion traits with this book. They're reprinting them anyways, might as well boost them up with the new design philosophy so they don't look as bland and weak next to the new renegade traits.
On the other hand, the people who are more upset to see good rules for Chaos than they were to see the bad ones are extremely funny.
Im sure its the mix of blatantly better than the other stuff with the blatantly worse.
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Post by: Crimson
That's how the subfaction rules are for all armies.
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Post by: Latro_
If it gets spammed in 6 months GW will change it to be 3 units of 10 or more marines... you know they will
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Post by: Kdash
So, i've just got home and we go from 3 pointless Legion previews to just... Wow Red Corsairs.
I half expect it to be back to business as usual with tomorrow's preview though. But, noone will care because practically every new chaos player has now made their decision on what Legion to run lol.
Never thought i'd see the day my Tzaangors would have access to 17CP!
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Post by: Daedalus81
Kdash wrote:So, i've just got home and we go from 3 pointless Legion previews to just... Wow Red Corsairs.
I half expect it to be back to business as usual with tomorrow's preview though. But, noone will care because practically every new chaos player has now made their decision on what Legion to run lol.
Never thought i'd see the day my Tzaangors would have access to 17CP!
People are going to need to learn how to use marines.
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Post by: Wayniac
Arachnofiend wrote:Man, they really should have taken the opportunity to fix up the old legion traits with this book. They're reprinting them anyways, might as well boost them up with the new design philosophy so they don't look as bland and weak next to the new renegade traits.
On the other hand, the people who are more upset to see good rules for Chaos than they were to see the bad ones are extremely funny.
It's because those of us who like the Traitor Legions feel like we just got slapped in the face by GW during "our" big release. It's not being mad that Renegades have good traits, it's being mad that they have better traits than Traitor Legions such that Red Corsairs are going to be king of the hill.
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Post by: Togusa
topaxygouroun i wrote:So you're telling me I have to play Renegades from now on...
8CP battalions. So that's why I would have to buy the new CSM boxes... I see, GW. I see.
No one is telling you that. I fully plan on playing Iron Warriors and Black Legion. Good traits there.
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Post by: Not Online!!!
That WB with the book, who or what is that?!?
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Post by: GaroRobe
Don't really care for the Dark Apostle, but his disciples are awesome. Automatically Appended Next Post:
The New Dark Apostle
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Post by: Latro_
i'll snip this out ... helllo
1
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Post by: Not Online!!!
GaroRobe wrote:Don't really care for the Dark Apostle, but his disciples are awesome.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The New Dark Apostle
Nice, sadly too meh atm
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Post by: Boss Salvage
Latro_ wrote:hot off the WHC mining WB are next
You're doing great work man, keep it up Daedalus81 wrote:People are going to need to learn how to use marines.
It's pretty minimal outlay to give those 5 CSM squads a weapon, even just an autocannon or missile launcher helps get work done. Flamer or melta if the plan is to advance + charge all over the place. EDIT: Shorty Apostle :/
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Post by: H
I dig that Apostle, busy, but not too busy. And he seems to have attendants? Or cultists? I once had an idea to convert Grimaldus into something very much like that.
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Post by: Arachnofiend
Kdash wrote:So, i've just got home and we go from 3 pointless Legion previews to just... Wow Red Corsairs.
I half expect it to be back to business as usual with tomorrow's preview though. But, noone will care because practically every new chaos player has now made their decision on what Legion to run lol.
Never thought i'd see the day my Tzaangors would have access to 17CP!
Eh, I'm still holding out for the Scourged legion trait (chapter tactic? lol). The Scourged getting Auspex Scan is already pretty dang gud, so hopefully the trait is enough to justify the decision to stick with Tzeentch.
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Post by: aracersss
at least 3-4 rumor engines in that new img besides the others already revealed(w/o counting book cover img) ... also no new possessed at the back
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Post by: Wayniac
The face on that apostle though. Yuck.
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Post by: Arachnofiend
Is the Defiler new, or just a better paint job than the one in the codex?
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Post by: Brometheus
Just need more info on that big chaos star fortification. Maybe it's something I can use for Thousand Sons since there wont be any TS or DG goodies I imagine
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Post by: GaroRobe
If the Dark Apostle turns out to be worth getting, I'll end up browsing Ebay for the DV Chosen champion. Similar loadout, but just a nicer model.
He's in the weird AOS "splay leg" pose, the horns on his face look a bit goofy, and he just seems small. The art pic of him with Abaddon looked much nicer than the actual model.
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Post by: H
Indeed, doesn't look great. Might not be hard to cut off and stick a better one on there though, if it hopefully has some clearance around it to do so.
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Post by: Wayniac
Better paintjob, I think. However it could be hard to tell, like with the Terminators who had to be scrutinized to determine they were new since they looked so close to the old ones.
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Post by: Daedalus81
He has a little buddy! Automatically Appended Next Post:
Same old Defiler
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Post by: Kdash
Something i've just noticed... Do Masters of Possession gain access to the god specific psychic powers or not? I'm presuming they do, but hadn't thought about it until now.
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Post by: Arachnofiend
Kdash wrote:Something i've just noticed... Do Masters of Possession gain access to the god specific psychic powers or not? I'm presuming they do, but hadn't thought about it until now.
They don't. The god-specific powers are part of the Dark Hereticus discipline, which the MoP does not get access to. There's a roundabout way to do it by paying to swap out a psychic power with a stratagem.
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Post by: Sotahullu
Well I am actually intereste in those possesed in the background. Those do look bigger but it could be eyes playing tricks or those being actually being conversions.
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Post by: Wayniac
I think they are the same old possessed just in a weird position.
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Post by: Kinetochore
Is it just me or does the new Dark Apostle look like he has a napkin tucked in his armour ready for his dinner?
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Post by: Red Corsair
If the leaks on the roter canon are true and it is heavy 8 s5 -1 for 20 pts then a 5 man squad with one of those and a combi bolter on sarge would only be 87pts and pump out 18 shots at 24" thats pretty solid IMHO. Its 8 points cheaper then 5 noise marines and it has 3 more shots, 8 of which are at higher strength and AP.
I actually don't think CSM are that bad at all with that set up.
3 of those with red corsair trait and a lord with the relic combi and you have a very decent fire base and solid CP farm.
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Post by: Wayniac
I haven't seen these rumors, is there more?
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Post by: Brometheus
I hope it's a Hades autocannon.
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Post by: Not Online!!!
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Post by: aracersss
Like hell if they will make an AC fire 8 shots lol
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Post by: Latro_
found this on reddit
1
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Post by: Kdash
Arachnofiend wrote:Kdash wrote:Something i've just noticed... Do Masters of Possession gain access to the god specific psychic powers or not? I'm presuming they do, but hadn't thought about it until now.
They don't. The god-specific powers are part of the Dark Hereticus discipline, which the MoP does not get access to. There's a roundabout way to do it by paying to swap out a psychic power with a stratagem.
Thanks!
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Post by: Brometheus
Hm, would be nice if TS could at least swap to one of those powers via Chaos Familiar strat
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Post by: Daedalus81
Red Corsair wrote:If the leaks on the roter canon are true and it is heavy 8 s5 -1 for 20 pts then a 5 man squad with one of those and a combi bolter on sarge would only be 87pts and pump out 18 shots at 24" thats pretty solid IMHO. Its 8 points cheaper then 5 noise marines and it has 3 more shots, 8 of which are at higher strength and AP.
I actually don't think CSM are that bad at all with that set up.
3 of those with red corsair trait and a lord with the relic combi and you have a very decent fire base and solid CP farm.
My thoughts as well. I'm eager to see everything as this point, but I doubt there is little to kick me off the CP farm.
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Post by: Sotahullu
Damn that reaper cannon looks beefy as hell! 
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Post by: the_scotsman
Wayniac wrote:Also, people saying "JUST WAIT FOR THE WHOLE BOOK" have thus far been proven to be wrong just about every single time when everyone's fears/issues are just proven to be right.
I mean, except for the times they were wrong. You just count the hits and ignore the misses.
See a few examples in the following:
-Ork lists featuring Trakktor kannons and other Mek Gunz will steamroll the competitive meta
-Genestealer Cultist lists featuring abberrant bombs will steamroll the competitive meta
-The tau codex makes tau useless and nerfs them super hard and they will never be seen in a tournament again
-Deldar wyches and reavers are the most broken things in the game and will steamroll the competitive meta
-Deathwatch with storm bolters and storm shields post- CA are ridiculously op and will steamroll the competitive meta
If you don't remember these things, it's because your brain is probably wired similarly to all human brains: To notice every successful prediction and go "PATTERN PATTERN PATTERN PATTERN".
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Post by: Galef
Daedalus81 wrote: Red Corsair wrote:If the leaks on the roter canon are true and it is heavy 8 s5 -1 for 20 pts then a 5 man squad with one of those and a combi bolter on sarge would only be 87pts and pump out 18 shots at 24" thats pretty solid IMHO. Its 8 points cheaper then 5 noise marines and it has 3 more shots, 8 of which are at higher strength and AP.
I actually don't think CSM are that bad at all with that set up.
3 of those with red corsair trait and a lord with the relic combi and you have a very decent fire base and solid CP farm.
My thoughts as well. I'm eager to see everything as this point, but I doubt there is little to kick me off the CP farm.
And I really don't see what is wrong with adding such a detachment to any LEGION army. It can very well represent recently defected Renegades that are just joining the Legion. So it would make sense for them not to have the same traits as the Marines that have been around for a millennia or so.
I'm excited for what this means for CSM, although I do hope it isn't the start of a trend for other Factions
-
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Post by: zamerion
Red Corsair wrote:If the leaks on the roter canon are true and it is heavy 8 s5 -1 for 20 pts then a 5 man squad with one of those and a combi bolter on sarge would only be 87pts and pump out 18 shots at 24" thats pretty solid IMHO. Its 8 points cheaper then 5 noise marines and it has 3 more shots, 8 of which are at higher strength and AP.
I actually don't think CSM are that bad at all with that set up.
3 of those with red corsair trait and a lord with the relic combi and you have a very decent fire base and solid CP farm.
Where are that leaks please?
801
Post by: buddha
zamerion wrote: Red Corsair wrote:If the leaks on the roter canon are true and it is heavy 8 s5 -1 for 20 pts then a 5 man squad with one of those and a combi bolter on sarge would only be 87pts and pump out 18 shots at 24" thats pretty solid IMHO. Its 8 points cheaper then 5 noise marines and it has 3 more shots, 8 of which are at higher strength and AP.
I actually don't think CSM are that bad at all with that set up.
3 of those with red corsair trait and a lord with the relic combi and you have a very decent fire base and solid CP farm.
Where are that leaks please?
Directly on the Warhammer community page.
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Post by: bubber
bigger DA image from Siege Studio's FB page:
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Post by: drakerocket
I actually think Huron himself is a perfectly good commander to use in the Piratical 17. He's 8 points over a normal sorc for a heavy flamer, a far better melee profile and a reroll aura. Plus another CP if you don't have a good use for a warlord trait.
The other one will be either an elixir prince or a warpsmith with that relic multi melta. With advance+charge you might even budget away the DP wings if you're feeling super duper stingy. And, if you don't, first turn charges with him have a decent chance.
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Post by: Binabik15
The Apostle is pretty meh. Sadly. I'm planning to redo my Word Bearers, after all I love the attendants, though.
Strangely enough I ordered a box of Delaque with my Shadowspear copy to represent an attendant for each CSM. Mixing in Flagellant and Cawdor bits in, probably. I love the juxtaposition of Astartes and humans and the artwork of Marines being armed for battle.
The Terminators are bugging me a bit, I'd like to see them photoshopped with more rounded Indomitus pauldrons, I think the slope in the updated ones makes them a bit too sleek.
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
What are the models next to the new dark apostle?
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Post by: Kawauso
Presumably some sort of cultist retinue accompanying him.
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Post by: grouchoben
The Apostle will look fine once he's had a headswap.
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Post by: casvalremdeikun
Someone get that man a helmet!
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Post by: Kosake
Holy mother of dinobots, what's the guy on the right riding on? This looks like a huge new centerpiece model...
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Post by: Kroem
I have to say they really aced it with these new Chaos Space Marine models. I was worried that they would ruin them as I loved the old models, but I'm completely sold!
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Post by: Togusa
 Kosake wrote:
Holy mother of dinobots, what's the guy on the right riding on? This looks like a huge new centerpiece model...
...really.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/13/chaos-space-marines-focus-the-lord-discordant/
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Post by: Apple Peel
Kosake wrote:
Holy mother of dinobots, what's the guy on the right riding on? This looks like a huge new centerpiece model...
The Lord Discordant. You seem a little behind.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
its been shown off on Warhammer community and discussed a few pages back
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Post by: Gael Knight
Hope GW have at least one legion upgrade sprue planned. Nightlords would be my choice.
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Post by: Kroem
 Gael Knight wrote:Hope GW have at least one legion upgrade sprue planned. Nightlords would be my choice.
Yea I'm curious about this too as there are Black Legion 'eyes' on some belt buckles and chest braces.
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Post by: WhiteDog
Reading about the fallen bit on warhammer community about them taking an important role in the story of vigilus ablaze, I'm tend to believe that this story will lead us to the appearance of Luther and then the Lion.
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Post by: Vector Strike
WhiteDog wrote:Reading about the fallen bit on warhammer community about them taking an important role in the story of vigilus ablaze, I'm tend to believe that this story will lead us to the appearance of Luther and then the Lion.
Since they've said they'll reduce the appearance of Primarchs... Luther maybe, Lion not so much
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Post by: xttz
 Vector Strike wrote:WhiteDog wrote:Reading about the fallen bit on warhammer community about them taking an important role in the story of vigilus ablaze, I'm tend to believe that this story will lead us to the appearance of Luther and then the Lion.
Since they've said they'll reduce the appearance of Primarchs
Where?
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Post by: Togusa
What happened to the original picture in your post? I need to see it again because I'm not convinced those aren't new posessed in the background, but your original post just has a . in it now?
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Post by: Crimson
This is great news! I hope they reduce that by putting a bullet in Guilliman's noggin!
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Post by: Togusa
Vector Strike wrote:WhiteDog wrote:Reading about the fallen bit on warhammer community about them taking an important role in the story of vigilus ablaze, I'm tend to believe that this story will lead us to the appearance of Luther and then the Lion.
Since they've said they'll reduce the appearance of Primarchs... Luther maybe, Lion not so much
Source? Sounds like BS to me.
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Post by: WhiteDog
Vector Strike wrote:WhiteDog wrote:Reading about the fallen bit on warhammer community about them taking an important role in the story of vigilus ablaze, I'm tend to believe that this story will lead us to the appearance of Luther and then the Lion.
Since they've said they'll reduce the appearance of Primarchs... Luther maybe, Lion not so much
It's more or less hyped in the last DA codex ...
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Post by: Togusa
WhiteDog wrote: Vector Strike wrote:WhiteDog wrote:Reading about the fallen bit on warhammer community about them taking an important role in the story of vigilus ablaze, I'm tend to believe that this story will lead us to the appearance of Luther and then the Lion.
Since they've said they'll reduce the appearance of Primarchs... Luther maybe, Lion not so much
It's more or less hyped in the last DA codex ...
It was quite hyped in that book.
I'm still waiting for someone to provide evidence that game designers, or marketing representatives form Games Workshop have stated that they're no longer interested in making and selling Primarch models for Warhammer 40,000.
79409
Post by: BrianDavion
 Togusa wrote:WhiteDog wrote: Vector Strike wrote:WhiteDog wrote:Reading about the fallen bit on warhammer community about them taking an important role in the story of vigilus ablaze, I'm tend to believe that this story will lead us to the appearance of Luther and then the Lion.
Since they've said they'll reduce the appearance of Primarchs... Luther maybe, Lion not so much
It's more or less hyped in the last DA codex ...
It was quite hyped in that book.
I'm still waiting for someone to provide evidence that game designers, or marketing representatives form Games Workshop have stated that they're no longer interested in making and selling Primarch models for Warhammer 40,000.
yeah me too. because I don't buy it, sure some people here have complained but by and alrge the reaction to the Primarchs even here (and Dakka Dakka is a bit of a pit of negativity) has been pretty positive
107707
Post by: Togusa
BrianDavion wrote: Togusa wrote:WhiteDog wrote: Vector Strike wrote:WhiteDog wrote:Reading about the fallen bit on warhammer community about them taking an important role in the story of vigilus ablaze, I'm tend to believe that this story will lead us to the appearance of Luther and then the Lion.
Since they've said they'll reduce the appearance of Primarchs... Luther maybe, Lion not so much
It's more or less hyped in the last DA codex ...
It was quite hyped in that book.
I'm still waiting for someone to provide evidence that game designers, or marketing representatives form Games Workshop have stated that they're no longer interested in making and selling Primarch models for Warhammer 40,000.
yeah me too. because I don't buy it, sure some people here have complained but by and alrge the reaction to the Primarchs even here (and Dakka Dakka is a bit of a pit of negativity) has been pretty positive
We can all disagree. Heck, I'll be the first to say I can think of times I've overreacted to something here. But it seems like the last two months, that pit of negativity has been getting worse and worse, to the point I'm considering just not coming back to the site!
That said, I'm going to go ahead and call it. The dude who made the statement is full of water, Google turned up zero hits.
People, don't spread bogus stuff like this.
84439
Post by: Marshal Loss
They didn't say that they were no longer interested in making Primarchs. What they did say is that they were in no rush to bring any more out.
79409
Post by: BrianDavion
 Marshal Loss wrote:They didn't say that they were no longer interested in making Primarchs. What they did say is that they were in no rush to bring any more out.
which makes perfect sense, Gulliman, oddly, works from a story point of view as the soul loyalist primarch left, and 1K sons and Death Guard each have their primarch. and Abaddon fills the role of "primarch" for the chaos marines book.
5598
Post by: Latro_
Togusa wrote:
What happened to the original picture in your post? I need to see it again because I'm not convinced those aren't new posessed in the background, but your original post just has a . in it now?
Pmd
74088
Post by: Irbis
 small_gods wrote:Is it bad that gsc and nids can work together, is it bad that csm can bring some daemons?
I kind of liked how 6th edition did it, main army with warlord and allies allowed only in allied detachment. Would have solved a lot of issues current ally system has.
I also liked ally chart with some forces functioning badly together but alas, people with shaky headcanons and minmaxers whined relentlessly and it got deleted...
Wayniac wrote:However it could be hard to tell, like with the Terminators who had to be scrutinized to determine they were new since they looked so close to the old ones.
What? 
I am still puzzled some people could see identical helmets as opposed to varied old ones, tartaros twin autocannon instead of reaper gun, puny guns and less trophy variety, then look at swords and chainaxes and go 'yep, these are the exact same aright, nothing to see here' 
100523
Post by: Brutus_Apex
I'm about 90% certain that the possessed and defiler are the old models.
Defiler looks a bit different because they've omitted the daemonic face shield behind the battle cannon and added smoke launchers on the shoulders.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
On the upside, finally some rules that might make MEQ worth taking.
On the downside, did they REALLY have to steal the BT relic and just make it flat-out better? Our Chapter Tactic is already available for 10 points for anyone with the Mark of Khorne anyway.
Really hope that World Eaters get some sort of increased charge range stratagem like Bloodletters do. Berzerkers are plenty killy, they just need to get there reliably.
90435
Post by: Slayer-Fan123
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:On the upside, finally some rules that might make MEQ worth taking.
On the downside, did they REALLY have to steal the BT relic and just make it flat-out better? Our Chapter Tactic is already available for 10 points for anyone with the Mark of Khorne anyway.
Really hope that World Eaters get some sort of increased charge range stratagem like Bloodletters do. Berzerkers are plenty killy, they just need to get there reliably.
You probably need to factor in that you can make that Captain a Chapter Master and that I'm pretty sure that particular Renegade Chapter is stuck being Slaanesh.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:On the upside, finally some rules that might make MEQ worth taking.
On the downside, did they REALLY have to steal the BT relic and just make it flat-out better? Our Chapter Tactic is already available for 10 points for anyone with the Mark of Khorne anyway.
Really hope that World Eaters get some sort of increased charge range stratagem like Bloodletters do. Berzerkers are plenty killy, they just need to get there reliably.
You probably need to factor in that you can make that Captain a Chapter Master and that I'm pretty sure that particular Renegade Chapter is stuck being Slaanesh.
Whereas they can take it on a Daemon Prince, which is a better HQ than anything I could field.
90435
Post by: Slayer-Fan123
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:On the upside, finally some rules that might make MEQ worth taking.
On the downside, did they REALLY have to steal the BT relic and just make it flat-out better? Our Chapter Tactic is already available for 10 points for anyone with the Mark of Khorne anyway.
Really hope that World Eaters get some sort of increased charge range stratagem like Bloodletters do. Berzerkers are plenty killy, they just need to get there reliably.
You probably need to factor in that you can make that Captain a Chapter Master and that I'm pretty sure that particular Renegade Chapter is stuck being Slaanesh.
Whereas they can take it on a Daemon Prince, which is a better HQ than anything I could field.
Daemon Princes also can't do as much buffing. So that would basically be just an extra attack on something charging forward that doesn't buff much.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:On the upside, finally some rules that might make MEQ worth taking.
On the downside, did they REALLY have to steal the BT relic and just make it flat-out better? Our Chapter Tactic is already available for 10 points for anyone with the Mark of Khorne anyway.
Really hope that World Eaters get some sort of increased charge range stratagem like Bloodletters do. Berzerkers are plenty killy, they just need to get there reliably.
You probably need to factor in that you can make that Captain a Chapter Master and that I'm pretty sure that particular Renegade Chapter is stuck being Slaanesh.
Whereas they can take it on a Daemon Prince, which is a better HQ than anything I could field.
Daemon Princes also can't do as much buffing. So that would basically be just an extra attack on something charging forward that doesn't buff much.
The Flawless Cloak also works on auras, rather than "abilities on the models' data sheet" like the Helmet, which means it also works with Warlord traits and any other aura abilities that aren't on the model's datasheet. The fact that you go from 6" to 9" is also significant if you want to buff people who've assaulted from Deep Strike, but like you said they'll probably be locked to Slaanesh and thus won't be able to have a DP buff a Letterbomb from a more cozy distance.
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Post by: Grimskul
AlmightyWalrus wrote:On the upside, finally some rules that might make MEQ worth taking.
On the downside, did they REALLY have to steal the BT relic and just make it flat-out better? Our Chapter Tactic is already available for 10 points for anyone with the Mark of Khorne anyway.
Really hope that World Eaters get some sort of increased charge range stratagem like Bloodletters do. Berzerkers are plenty killy, they just need to get there reliably.
Yeah, I noticed that. BT are increasingly only distinguished by the the Emperor's Champion and Crusader Squads. Even the recent Vigilus Sword Brethren only really helps in making a more killy Captain, and maaaybe a choppy Company vet unit (but that still has issues getting into CC compared to Vanguard Vets).
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Post by: Nicorex
I did not see anyone post the entire new Dark Apostle image.
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Post by: Grimskul
Not sure if that head is just badly painted or that derpy looking. Either way, probably better to have a helmet head-swap with it.
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Post by: NurglesR0T
Really disappointing that they passed on the opportunity to revamp the codex and update the legion traits etc.
Such an awesome model range is quickly becoming overshadowed by a mediocre codex.
Sad that this "v2" CSM codex will be the exact same, but updated points values from CA2018 and the new datasheets. Functionally everything else will stay the same from a CSM meta pov
Back to the eye of terror lads, nothing to see here!
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Post by: Wayniac
 NurglesR0T wrote:Really disappointing that they passed on the opportunity to revamp the codex and update the legion traits etc. Such an awesome model range is quickly becoming overshadowed by a mediocre codex. Sad that this "v2" CSM codex will be the exact same, but updated points values from CA2018 and the new datasheets. Functionally everything else will stay the same from a CSM meta pov Back to the eye of terror lads, nothing to see here!
Yep, except now you'll see every meta CSM list taking the "Disloyal 17" in a min Red Corsair battalion to max out on CP. While the traitor legions get gak on like usual. Really really disappointed that this isn't a real v2 codex. Especially after seeing the Renegade previews where they are actually getting better rules than the traitor legions.
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Post by: Alexonian
NurglesR0T wrote:Really disappointing that they passed on the opportunity to revamp the codex and update the legion traits etc.
Such an awesome model range is quickly becoming overshadowed by a mediocre codex.
Sad that this "v2" CSM codex will be the exact same, but updated points values from CA2018 and the new datasheets. Functionally everything else will stay the same from a CSM meta pov
Back to the eye of terror lads, nothing to see here!
couldn't agree more, was tempted to start a chaos army when I saw that amazing new abaddon mini, but upon learning the no revised rules I'm out, and its a shame, Chaos has always for me been the coolest, still holding out hope for Ec...one day
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Post by: BrianDavion
 Alexonian wrote: NurglesR0T wrote:Really disappointing that they passed on the opportunity to revamp the codex and update the legion traits etc.
Such an awesome model range is quickly becoming overshadowed by a mediocre codex.
Sad that this "v2" CSM codex will be the exact same, but updated points values from CA2018 and the new datasheets. Functionally everything else will stay the same from a CSM meta pov
Back to the eye of terror lads, nothing to see here!
couldn't agree more, was tempted to start a chaos army when I saw that amazing new abaddon mini, but upon learning the no revised rules I'm out, and its a shame, Chaos has always for me been the coolest, still holding out hope for Ec...one day
I'm hoping they suprise us and legions get some new tactics to make em worthwhile against renegade chapters
84439
Post by: Marshal Loss
I wouldn't get your hopes up on that front.
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Post by: Drudge Dreadnought
Well we know we're gonna be getting a new Havoc data sheet for the new rotor cannon weapon. If CSM can take it, then they are getting a new sheet too. And Terminators may also need it if they have new options (which may also explain their higher base cost in CA compared to other terminators.) It's possible that others things will change on those sheets too.
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Post by: Togusa
Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Well we know we're gonna be getting a new Havoc data sheet for the new rotor cannon weapon. If CSM can take it, then they are getting a new sheet too. And Terminators may also need it if they have new options (which may also explain their higher base cost in CA compared to other terminators.) It's possible that others things will change on those sheets too.
It's also worth noting that other units could get model & /or datasheet updates in future World Eater/Emperor's Children codexes that might trickle down to this codex.
I'm firmly in the wait and see camp for now.
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Post by: Drudge Dreadnought
Togusa wrote: Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Well we know we're gonna be getting a new Havoc data sheet for the new rotor cannon weapon. If CSM can take it, then they are getting a new sheet too. And Terminators may also need it if they have new options (which may also explain their higher base cost in CA compared to other terminators.) It's possible that others things will change on those sheets too.
It's also worth noting that other units could get model & /or datasheet updates in future World Eater/Emperor's Children codexes that might trickle down to this codex.
I'm firmly in the wait and see camp for now.
And there's gonna be a FAQ for Shadowspear 2 weeks after its out, which is likely to contain any point adjustments to those models. And then the Big FAQ not too long after. The rules going into these previews and even in the codex reprint may be months old. The Big FAQ may codify the beta bolters rule, and then we may see other beta rules introduced. Beta Bolters already shows that GW is aware there are problems with marines.
So I'm not optimistic overall, but its not the end of the world if Vigilus 2 and CSM Codex v2 don't fix stuff.
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Post by: GaroRobe
I wonder if the next pre orders will follow the same pattern as the last one, ie, release two new models a week; a character and a unit, respectively.
We have the Discordant, the Apostle, the terminators, and havocs left to be released. And possibly the Chaos Sorcerer, though maybe that will get released at a future time, like in a Blackstone fortress expansion pack. Besides the backpack from awhile back, we never got teases of the sorcerer during the Daemon rumor engine, which is pretty odd.
On a side note, that Chaos space marine backpack with the skull peaking through the damaged primaris helmet it so awesome. Perfect for a LotD Primaris conversion
79409
Post by: BrianDavion
Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Well we know we're gonna be getting a new Havoc data sheet for the new rotor cannon weapon. If CSM can take it, then they are getting a new sheet too. And Terminators may also need it if they have new options (which may also explain their higher base cost in CA compared to other terminators.) It's possible that others things will change on those sheets too.
a big change for CSMs would be giving them a chainsword, in addition to a bolt gun. it'd be a small change but be a big improvement in how the black legion trait WORKS
61286
Post by: drbored
>Be a Dakkaite
>See a blurry tiny image of a model
>Immediately dismiss it
>Later
>Full images of model revealed
>People start getting the model in their hands
>Be that same Dakkaite
>"OMG THAT MODEL IS SO COOL"
This pattern. Holy crap guys.
I seriously think they released the Renegade preview early because of the negativity of the Iron Warriors and Night Lords previews. There's a lot of hate on the Facebook pages for this release, moreso than any other save maybe the 'Orktober' fiasco.
My thinking is that GW didn't want to change the Legion traits with the silly idea of "We don't want to change people's armies too much or invalidate anything that anyone already bought" (even though they do that on a weekly basis with new codexes and model releases) and so they kept the old Legion traits and gave us the Renegade Traits alongside them.
Look at it this way. With these Renegade Traits, Chaos Marines now has more Subfaction traits to pick from than ANY OTHER CODEX. More Warlord Traits, more Relics, the ENTIRE Vigilus Ablaze book is Chaos related, on top of getting new units, updated models for old units, and Abaddon and the Noctilith Shrine on top of all of that.
They are giving us two cakes. One cake is just kinda crappy, but instead of seeing the good cake, everyone is like, "HOW DARE GW GIVE US THIS CRAPPY CAKE!!!"
Even me. I'm in that boat. I'm not free of sin. But, I calmed down, I thought about it, and this was my conclusion.
There is another, better cake. And at the end of the day, if I want to paint my models as Night Lords but use the Crimson Slaughter rules for them, nobody is going to stop me from doing that. Nobody ever has, and they likely never will.
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Post by: drakerocket
I'm gonna be really honest...I play chaos as a main force, have for 10 years, own probably 15-20k points worth and really care very little about the nuance differences between 'renegade chapters' and 'legions'. Don't get me wrong, I understand the fluff differences, the lore, but I really care almost nothing for the absolute need to have one particular element of CSM have huge specific domination over the others. CSM is CSM, and the whining over "I am so furious my particular flavor of CSM isn't as good as this other flavor" is kind if eye-rolling to me.
If you're married to only being a purist Iron Warriors player or never want to touch anything other than Black Legion then well...you're not really being competitive. The fluff stars will never perfectly align for you, someone will always have the best traits.
The Piratical 17 are an unequivocally good addition. It puts actual CSM bodies on the field from a classic chaos faction which has rarely been much seen. "I want to use actual CSM!!!" has been a battlecry for a long time. Now you can. Huron is spiffy too. And, further, they plug into whichever chaos brand you want and just make them better. So your world bearers got some sacrifices to the dark gods from their pirate allies or your Iron Warriors benefit from a treasure trove of extra munitions that Huron handed over from a recent raid.
This is a genuinely good and needed design; stop bellyaching about it.
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Post by: drbored
drakerocket wrote:I'm gonna be really honest...I play chaos as a main force, have for 10 years, own probably 15-20k points worth and really care very little about the nuance differences between 'renegade chapters' and 'legions'. Don't get me wrong, I understand the fluff differences, the lore, but I really care almost nothing for the absolute need to have one particular element of CSM have huge specific domination over the others. CSM is CSM, and the whining over "I am so furious my particular flavor of CSM isn't as good as this other flavor" is kind if eye-rolling to me.
If you're married to only being a purist Iron Warriors player or never want to touch anything other than Black Legion then well...you're not really being competitive. The fluff stars will never perfectly align for you, someone will always have the best traits.
The Piratical 17 are an unequivocally good addition. It puts actual CSM bodies on the field from a classic chaos faction which has rarely been much seen. "I want to use actual CSM!!!" has been a battlecry for a long time. Now you can. Huron is spiffy too. And, further, they plug into whichever chaos brand you want and just make them better. So your world bearers got some sacrifices to the dark gods from their pirate allies or your Iron Warriors benefit from a treasure trove of extra munitions that Huron handed over from a recent raid.
This is a genuinely good and needed design; stop bellyaching about it.
I agree. On top of this, Vigilus Ablaze is bringing all these detachments that ARE NOT locked to a specific legion. These previous are pointing at potential thematic ties, but they aren't shoehorning you into a particular legion. You can take a Host Raptorial in a The Purge army. Tie an enemy up in close combat, give them leadership debuffs, and then if they're still locked in next turn, shoot at them in the shooting phase to pile on the hurt.
110118
Post by: Saturmorn Carvilli
BrianDavion wrote:a big change for CSMs would be giving them a chainsword, in addition to a bolt gun. it'd be a small change but be a big improvement in how the black legion trait WORKS
I am of the opinion that Boltgun, Bolt Pistol and Chainsword/combat knife should be standard issue for any space marine tactical or Chaos. I just feels right from them to have their primary weapon, sidearm and melee weapon.
drbored wrote:
This pattern. Holy crap guys.
Okay now that I have Shadowspear in my possession, you got me on the Infiltrators. I think the boot cuff on this is supposed to invoke a stylized a medieval leather boot with the top folded over like would expect rogues/rangers to have. At the same time, I still think Suppressors look silly on flight stands. I like what Crimson did with his, so I am going to try for something like that.
79006
Post by: Nightlord1987
Legion tactics changing would make getting CSM 8.5 essential, which it clearly isnt. So no. I play CSM and even i am skipping that.
54233
Post by: AduroT
Did I hear there was a pdf or download of the Shadowspear data cards somewhere?
79409
Post by: BrianDavion
 Nightlord1987 wrote:Legion tactics changing would make getting CSM 8.5 essential, which it clearly isnt. So no. I play CSM and even i am skipping that.
unless they put the revisions in vigilus ablaze, but aye I don't think we'll see changes
29836
Post by: Elbows
 AduroT wrote:Did I hear there was a pdf or download of the Shadowspear data cards somewhere?
Yep, on Warhammer Community with the first "new Chaos stuff" post from a few days back.
54233
Post by: AduroT
 Elbows wrote: AduroT wrote:Did I hear there was a pdf or download of the Shadowspear data cards somewhere?
Yep, on Warhammer Community with the first "new Chaos stuff" post from a few days back.
Found it, just the chaos stuff then? Was hoping to find a pdf of the Primaris stuff.
29836
Post by: Elbows
Not sure, actually. I hadn't seen those...maybe in another article?
111605
Post by: Adeptus Doritos
Looks like I've got to wait until LVO is over to find out about the 'Elites' expansion to Kill-Team in order to field the new stuff.
Kinda sad, you'd thing GW would at least be hurling new Chaos Space Marine rules updates with the new toys coming.
19577
Post by: Insane Ivan
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:Looks like I've got to wait until LVO is over to find out about the 'Elites' expansion to Kill-Team in order to field the new stuff.
Kinda sad, you'd thing GW would at least be hurling new Chaos Space Marine rules updates with the new toys coming.
I'm assuming you mean Adepticon ( LVO was over a month ago)?
I'm very curious whether there will be any updates to the datasheets from the main KT rulebook in the Elites expansion. With the new CSM kit, you'd at least expect them to receive more equipment options in KT...
111605
Post by: Adeptus Doritos
Yeah, it's that one. One of those things that people go and do a tournament, GW shows off new toys, Spikey Bits goes bonkers and acts like GW is firing naked ladies of a cannon, and I wake up for a nap to look at the pictures of the models with blurred vision, shrug, and then roll over and go back to sleep.
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Post by: YeOldSaltPotato
Hey guys, that probably not new defiler picture, the mounting for the battle cannon doesn't have the big face around it, just the usual trim. Is that just part of the kit they never show off?
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
What Defiler pic?
3750
Post by: Wayniac
With the Word Bearers/Dark Apostle a page or two back. There's a Word Bearers Defiler that doesn't have the face in the middle, and it looks WAY better than the normal model with that alone (it's the same model I compared very very closely ) that it had some people thinking it was new. Also, the main issue with this as a long time (1996) Chaos Player is: 1) Most people who play Chaos do so because they like the Traitor Legions; GW has always stated this from when they designed the 2nd edition codex and gave Marines the focus 2) The legion traits are mostly very lackluster, and many of us were hoping for improvements. Instead, the "v2" codex is basically a 2nd printing with nothing really changed. GW did the absolute laziest thing possible rather than actually address the issues. 3) Them giving renegades better traits than the legions is a slap in the face to Chaos players who want the story of the traitor legions 4) Red Corsairs being able to mimic the Loyal 32 in CP farming is doubling down on one of if not the worst mechanic in 8th edition, showing GW either doesn't understand or just doesn't care 5) Many people want to play a specific subfaction because they enjoy it, rather than just pick and choose whatever is "the best" unit from across the entire mega-faction. GW's approach is encouraging the opposite and is actually wanting you to cherry-pick things and have a Red Corsairs battalion for CP, and then some other legion for this buff and yet another for this other buff. 6) We are tired of feeling like we're gimping ourselves because we like, say, Word Bearers and not Red Corsairs or aren't willing to just take a mishmash of legions with different detachments to min/max 7) A lot of people don't feel comfortable just saying "these count as Red Corsairs" when it's for a pure min/max purpose. That's why we are upset. The Renegade preview made me so mad that I had to take a break from work and go for a walk because I wanted to punch something (not even joking here 100% serious) because it felt like such an insult that they made the Renegades have better traits than the "real" legions and because I knew that people would just be going off on how who gives a gak, just take a red corsairs battalion becasue it's better and feth you if you want to play a single legion.
117719
Post by: Sunny Side Up
Wayniac wrote:
1) Most people who play Chaos do so because they like the Traitor Legions; GW has always stated this from when they designed the 2nd edition codex and gave Marines the focus
2) The legion traits are mostly very lackluster, and many of us were hoping for improvements. Instead, the "v2" codex is basically a 2nd printing with nothing really changed. GW did the absolute laziest thing possible rather than actually address the issues.
.
Um. No. Just no.
The Legions were always super boring and, for the most part, even Chaos Characters with Legion-Background were exiles shot on sight by their own Legion-brothers (e.g. Ahriman, Kharn, etc..)
One of the very few things 7th did vastly better than 8th was the Chaos fluff with things like Crimson Slaughter or the Khorne Daemonkin, moving the "Khorne Army" away from the bland, one-dimensional World Eaters towards a more religious cult army.
The weird retcon on Chaos into "Horus Heresy 2.0" with legion-focussed books in 8th is one of it's weakest points.
50012
Post by: Crimson
Wayniac wrote:
5) Many people want to play a specific subfaction because they enjoy it, rather than just pick and choose whatever is "the best" unit from across the entire mega-faction. GW's approach is encouraging the opposite and is actually wanting you to cherry-pick things and have a Red Corsairs battalion for CP, and then some other legion for this buff and yet another for this other buff.
6) We are tired of feeling like we're gimping ourselves because we like, say, Word Bearers and not Red Corsairs or aren't willing to just take a mishmash of legions with different detachments to min/max
7) A lot of people don't feel comfortable just saying "these count as Red Corsairs" when it's for a pure min/max purpose.
Sure, but it is like this for all armies, it has been since the subfaction traits were introduced. One of them (or two at the absolute best case) will be way better than the others. Being shocked about it now seems a bit weird.
112649
Post by: grouchoben
Word Bearers are the absolute worst sub-faction in CSM right now though, it's not really a fair comparison. Corsairs have just had a big new buff to take them to the top of the pile.
But I don't think it's very fair to pretend that AL, BL and to some extent WE don't have something to offer to a comp-CSM player. But if you want to play competitive with Chaos, Imperial or Eldar, that means soup... Nailed on fact in 8E. This new release means you can now soup in a very competitive CP farm to your chaos lists, and you do it using actual CSMs. Those are two big plusses from this preview. Those are good things for the faction.
You still have 1500pts to spend after your Renegade battalion, if you're trying to build CSM competitively, and lots of soup options.
And then, way over on the other side of the debate, there's playing for fluff. But that has very little right to be mixed in, as a poisonous ingredient, to discussions of competitive 40k... 'HOW DARE GW NOT MAKE WBs COMPETITIVE??' is not a useful addition to the debate. If you're dead set on playing one subsection to the exclusion of all else in your competitive games, then as you probably know, you have to squeeze the pips until they squeak - be merciless in your unit choice - in order to stand a fighting chance against an optimal soup list (played badly). Against a good player with optimal soup, you're in trouble. I mean, I myself run IFs in that way in local competitions, and I love em. My aim there is to finish with a winning record. But I wouldn't feel entitled to start shouting about how unfair it was that my yellow boys can't stand up against Eldar soup. It's just a category mistake in this edition.
I know this is all a bit hazardous, seeing how I'm responding to someone who literally feels the urge to punch the world because of a new sub-faction rule, but there it is. We mix fluff-maxing and crunch-maxing logics at our own peril.
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Post by: Wayniac
 Crimson wrote:Wayniac wrote:
5) Many people want to play a specific subfaction because they enjoy it, rather than just pick and choose whatever is "the best" unit from across the entire mega-faction. GW's approach is encouraging the opposite and is actually wanting you to cherry-pick things and have a Red Corsairs battalion for CP, and then some other legion for this buff and yet another for this other buff.
6) We are tired of feeling like we're gimping ourselves because we like, say, Word Bearers and not Red Corsairs or aren't willing to just take a mishmash of legions with different detachments to min/max
7) A lot of people don't feel comfortable just saying "these count as Red Corsairs" when it's for a pure min/max purpose.
Sure, but it is like this for all armies, it has been since the subfaction traits were introduced. One of them (or two at the absolute best case) will be way better than the others. Being shocked about it now seems a bit weird.
It's not shock, it's frustration and disappointment that it keeps happening so you keep feeling like you're being punished for not liking the best one.
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Post by: grouchoben
I hear you, it can feel unfair. Fingers crossed you get something in Vigilus to help you enjoy the game again.
121073
Post by: Slowroll
YeOldSaltPotato wrote:Hey guys, that probably not new defiler picture, the mounting for the battle cannon doesn't have the big face around it, just the usual trim. Is that just part of the kit they never show off?
The big face is an optional piece on the kit.
Regarding new datasheets, the new rotary cannon might just be added to the Heavy Weapon list and thus not require updated datasheets.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Crimson wrote:Wayniac wrote:
5) Many people want to play a specific subfaction because they enjoy it, rather than just pick and choose whatever is "the best" unit from across the entire mega-faction. GW's approach is encouraging the opposite and is actually wanting you to cherry-pick things and have a Red Corsairs battalion for CP, and then some other legion for this buff and yet another for this other buff.
6) We are tired of feeling like we're gimping ourselves because we like, say, Word Bearers and not Red Corsairs or aren't willing to just take a mishmash of legions with different detachments to min/max
7) A lot of people don't feel comfortable just saying "these count as Red Corsairs" when it's for a pure min/max purpose.
Sure, but it is like this for all armies, it has been since the subfaction traits were introduced. One of them (or two at the absolute best case) will be way better than the others. Being shocked about it now seems a bit weird.
I think part of it is because CSM and Marines were previously one of the very few armies to have something similar. Eldar too, with the old old Craftworlds expansion Codex.
So if someone has been collecting Legion ABC or Chapter XYZ for years, suddenly getting lumped with lack lustre 'bonuses' is going to feel irksome. Compare to Necron, Tau, GSC, Nids, Orks etc, all of whom got only new options. With no real constraint on paint schemes for years, is less of an issue for many.
Perception. I think that's what I'm getting at. If someone has played Word Bearers for yonks, because they really like the background, seeing them fielded 'Counts As' Red Corsairs? Opponents may accuse of ship-jumping etc. Which is an unfair judgement on the Word Bearer player.
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Post by: Nurglitch
My Night Lords are fairly evenly divided between Havocs and Raptors, with a smattering of other stuff, and I'm pretty pleased with what I've read so far of the Vigilus stuff.
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Post by: Tiberius501
That Crimson Slaughter trait is... sort of random. I mean, it's good but not at all what I expected. Not sure if I like it.
85390
Post by: bullyboy
My Chaos army is Iron Warriors and I can't say I'm disappointed with the new additions. Ignoring cover is a pretty decent trait to begin with, now I get to add a WT to reroll wounds of 1 vs vehicles.That's not too shabby since I take havoc sqds and oblits being Iron Warriors. I'm also looking forward to adding the Lord Discordant to my army to ride up with some daemon engines.
However, I also plan to add some other chaos detachments for some variety, why not? Having got the Blackstone Fortress set, I now have the character, added the 2 marines to the DV chosen models for his bodyguard and will probably get Abaddon and his terminators. They will be an elite detachment running as a Vanguard. I will probably also look at some of these renegade options for fun, plus I still have a bunch of marines from the Betrayal at Calth box sitting around. 30K weapons always look good on Chaos dudes.
There's a lot to be had with this new release, and if you are looking to be competitive with monobuild chaos, you will be disappointed. Be like Imperial players.....soup away.
123200
Post by: Waaaghbert
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend.
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Post by: Wayniac
No. Soup is bad. Soup is cancer on the game. I'm tired of being punished for not wanting to just pick the best out of a myriad of options.
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Post by: the_scotsman
as an aside, do we actually know that we aren't getting any kind of update to the rules for CSM in codex 2.0?
We know CSM is getting new wargear options, and we know at least some core rules (the cultist nerf) are happening. What are we going off when assuming there will be no updates to rules or points?
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Post by: Not Online!!!
Waaaghbert wrote:Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend.
Paraphrased from Bruce Lee?
85390
Post by: bullyboy
Wayniac wrote:No. Soup is bad. Soup is cancer on the game. I'm tired of being punished for not wanting to just pick the best out of a myriad of options.
But then don't sit back and complain that chaos are crap, why is GW punishing me! Imperials soup, Aeldaris soup.....chaos must soup. Abaddon has brought all of his minions together for a nice happy camping trip, why not sit around the campfire and sample the brew?
119289
Post by: Not Online!!!
the_scotsman wrote:as an aside, do we actually know that we aren't getting any kind of update to the rules for CSM in codex 2.0?
We know CSM is getting new wargear options, and we know at least some core rules (the cultist nerf) are happening. What are we going off when assuming there will be no updates to rules or points?
I don't know, and i question that we won't see any if they nerf Cultists then it would also be expected that the not performing parts of the CSM codex would get an upgrade of a kind.
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Post by: bullyboy
As a follow up, am I right in assuming that Vigilus Ablaze is nothing but chaos? There are zero other detachments in there for anyone else???
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Post by: Not Online!!!
 bullyboy wrote:Wayniac wrote:No. Soup is bad. Soup is cancer on the game. I'm tired of being punished for not wanting to just pick the best out of a myriad of options.
But then don't sit back and complain that chaos are crap, why is GW punishing me! Imperials soup, Aeldaris soup.....chaos must soup. Abaddon has brought all of his minions together for a nice happy camping trip, why not sit around the campfire and sample the brew?
Because even though abbadon brought all leaders to a table and gave them an objective, they still won't cooperate beyond that. There is no reason they seemingly work toghether seamlessly, because they will and would rather shank each other.
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Post by: Semper
Wayniac wrote:No. Soup is bad. Soup is cancer on the game. I'm tired of being punished for not wanting to just pick the best out of a myriad of options.
That's not the only application of soup. I often use Soup to make more fluffy games (i.e A Black Legion force use bloodshed to summon a unit of khorne daemons).
You punish yourself, sir, by thinking of a game of fun in only tournament level competitive terms.
#embracethesoup
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Post by: Wayniac
the_scotsman wrote:as an aside, do we actually know that we aren't getting any kind of update to the rules for CSM in codex 2.0? We know CSM is getting new wargear options, and we know at least some core rules (the cultist nerf) are happening. What are we going off when assuming there will be no updates to rules or points?
They have stated that it's basically incorporating the FAQs, points from Chapter Approved, and any new datasheets (so Shadowspear, anything new coming in Vigilus like updated Abaddon, CSM options etc). Their own chart even shows if you already own the current book, you just buy Vigilus Ablaze and don't need to 2.0 book. That's what people are basing it on. It's a second printing, not a v2 in the same vein as 3.0 to 3.5 (which is what almost everyone expected/wanted). The only way there could be updates would be if Vigilus also changes them. For instance, Vigilus will have to reprint the CSM datasheet if they are getting the rotor cannon as an option, so therefore it would also have to include matched play points. They *COULD* adjust the points for CSM in that case without making us wait until Chapter Approved 2019. What this leaves up in the air though is something like the Lord Discordant. Will he be in Vigilus? If so, he would have to go on pre-order next week (when Vigilus releases) to avoid there being a lot of a gap where he has rules but no model available. If not, then there has to be something else on the horizon for chaos that we haven't been told about. Or if there will be a multipart kit for the Venomcrawler with different weapons (as we saw the artwork of one with two flamer type weapons, presumably Baleflamers). That would also have to be included in Vigilus as the Shadowspear variant only has the cannon. There is, however, precedence for having the datasheet with no model available for a while: The Myphitic Blight-Hauler came out several months after the Death Guard codex so it had a period where there were rules but no model.
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Post by: Voss
the_scotsman wrote:as an aside, do we actually know that we aren't getting any kind of update to the rules for CSM in codex 2.0?
We know CSM is getting new wargear options, and we know at least some core rules (the cultist nerf) are happening. What are we going off when assuming there will be no updates to rules or points?
We aren't. We've been explicitly told the new rules (up to shadowspear, I'm not clear if it includes the vifilius rules, though that is heavily implied by the handy chart from sunday) and CA points updates are included.
war com wrote:we’ve given Codex: Chaos Space Marines a spruce-up! We’ve combined the previous codex with recent rules releases – including new datasheets, psychic powers, and Chapter Approved points changes – for your convenience.
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Post by: Wayniac
bullyboy wrote:As a follow up, am I right in assuming that Vigilus Ablaze is nothing but chaos? There are zero other detachments in there for anyone else???
We don't know. From what they seem to be indicating yeah it's all Chaos.
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Post by: Tiberius501
Semper wrote:Wayniac wrote:No. Soup is bad. Soup is cancer on the game. I'm tired of being punished for not wanting to just pick the best out of a myriad of options.
That's not the only application of soup. I often use Soup to make more fluffy games (i.e A Black Legion force use bloodshed to summon a unit of khorne daemons).
You punish yourself, sir, by thinking of a game of fun in only tournament level competitive terms.
#embracethesoup
I think the real cancer in this game is the way CP's are handled. Soup would be fine if it didn't reward you with heaps of CP's. everyone should get the same amount of CP's and detachments with a different keyword to the main faction you've picked should -1 from that lot or whatever. This meta of taking a cheap battalion for lots of CP's to use with other armies is bad, because people who don't want to do that are penalised for it.
And the second thing that's bad for the hobby is the high lethality mixed with an IGOUGO system. One person gets to Slaughter the other player, then that player responds with whatever they have left. In such a lethal game, it sort of requires alternate activation, or the meta goes strait for alpha strike which really isn't fun at all. Or reduce the lethality if they want to stick with IGOUGO so people can enjoy using their units that they've spent hours building and painting.
That's just my opinion anyway.
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Post by: Redemption
Wayniac wrote:What this leaves up in the air though is something like the Lord Discordant. Will he be in Vigilus? If so, he would have to go on pre-order next week (when Vigilus releases) to avoid there being a lot of a gap where he has rules but no model available. If not, then there has to be something else on the horizon for chaos that we haven't been told about. Or if there will be a multipart kit for the Venomcrawler with different weapons (as we saw the artwork of one with two flamer type weapons, presumably Baleflamers). That would also have to be included in Vigilus as the Shadowspear variant only has the cannon.
There is, however, precedence for having the datasheet with no model available for a while: The Myphitic Blight-Hauler came out several months after the Death Guard codex so it had a period where there were rules but no model.
They generally do this with bigger releases where they split it up over multiple weeks. The new Genestealer Cults Ridgerunner also came out after the codex was released. So there's a good chance the Lord Discordant will be released the week after.
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Post by: drakerocket
Then you're not a competitive player so play whatever fluff you want and drop the whining 'slap in the face' nonsense. Competitive and fluffy do not perfectly align. Every unit/subfaction has to be different. Different cannot be equal, not across the thousands of unit/subfaction/choice combinations. Every competitive ever has taken an examination of the stats and played a list accordingly. It would be nearly impossible for GW or anyone else to create perfect equity between factions/sub factions.
You don't like soup? Well, alright, that's a pretty well expressed sentiment. But the broader the set of choices, the more likely you'll be able to find a good one. So you narrow it to CSM, you're invariably going to weaken yourself. But you hate cultists because wtf that's not really csm? Alright...here you go...have some CSM worth fielding. Legit, you *want* to have them. OMG THEY ARE NOT THE RIGHT SUBFACTION AND DON'T GIVE THE BONUS I WANT YOU MIGHT AS WELL BE PISSING ON MY GRAVE!! ..../sigh.
Man, at some point I wouldn't want to try to please chaos players anymore either.
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Post by: Boss Salvage
Wayniac wrote:You punish yourself, sir, by thinking of a game of fun in only tournament level competitive terms.
Precisely the problem with 40k as a gaming experience, and just about everything the Dub makes. Semper wrote:Wayniac wrote:No. Soup is bad. Soup is cancer on the game. I'm tired of being punished for not wanting to just pick the best out of a myriad of options.
That's not the only application of soup. I often use Soup to make more fluffy games (i.e A Black Legion force use bloodshed to summon a unit of khorne daemons).
FWIW I think you're both right: Soup is terrible for the pursuit of a competitive, balanced meta. Soup is great for the pursuit of a thematic, fluff-first gaming experience. But on the actual topic of C: CSM 8.5, slot in some Red Corsairs or call your Night Lords renegades if that's what you need to do. The value you chase in this game is not necessarily the value I chase. I prefer to run my <LEGION> dudes by making the most of their matching legion rules, as gakky as they may be. To me this is the true struggle of the Long War  drakerocket wrote:Man, at some point I wouldn't want to try to please chaos players anymore either.
QFT ... with a wink towards C: CSM 3.5, The Greatest Codex, Uniter of the Ruinous Powers, May The Fires It Lit Never Die
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Post by: drakerocket
And the second thing that's bad for the hobby is the high lethality mixed with an IGOUGO system. One person gets to Slaughter the other player, then that player responds with whatever they have left. In such a lethal game, it sort of requires alternate activation, or the meta goes strait for alpha strike which really isn't fun at all. Or reduce the lethality if they want to stick with IGOUGO so people can enjoy using their units that they've spent hours building and painting.
I agree with this pretty strongly, but it has little to do with a chaos release. I would definitely love a lethality decrease or alternating activations.
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Post by: Waaaghbert
Not Online!!! wrote:Waaaghbert wrote:Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend.
Paraphrased from Bruce Lee?
Yes, I could not resist
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Post by: Huron black heart
drakerocket wrote:Then you're not a competitive player so play whatever fluff you want and drop the whining 'slap in the face' nonsense. Competitive and fluffy do not perfectly align. Every unit/subfaction has to be different. Different cannot be equal, not across the thousands of unit/subfaction/choice combinations. Every competitive ever has taken an examination of the stats and played a list accordingly. It would be nearly impossible for GW or anyone else to create perfect equity between factions/sub factions.
You don't like soup? Well, alright, that's a pretty well expressed sentiment. But the broader the set of choices, the more likely you'll be able to find a good one. So you narrow it to CSM, you're invariably going to weaken yourself. But you hate cultists because wtf that's not really csm? Alright...here you go...have some CSM worth fielding. Legit, you *want* to have them. OMG THEY ARE NOT THE RIGHT SUBFACTION AND DON'T GIVE THE BONUS I WANT YOU MIGHT AS WELL BE PISSING ON MY GRAVE!! ..../sigh.
Man, at some point I wouldn't want to try to please chaos players anymore either.
We're not all this bad.
I've seen the releases so far, some good some bad. Some I'll purchase and use, some I won't. No big deal.
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Post by: krakjen
I like how some people are actually berating others for wanting to play a fluffy army and not be completely worthless at the same time.
So yeah I want to play a pure Black Legion force, most likely led by Abaddon and this codex 2.0 was the perfect occasion for GW to improve the very underwhelming Legion traits that suffer strongly from early codex syndrome.
And thus, it's disheartening to see GW only changed the Renegade traits while also making them much better than the Legion traits. The Original Legions you know, Veterans of the Long War, a force to be feared and reckoned with...
But no, simply wanting my faction, one of the major one in the game to be "OK" (i'm not even asking for OP or uber competitive, just OK) is apparently making me an entitled whiner.
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Post by: Denny
 krakjen wrote:I like how some people are actually berating others for wanting to play a fluffy army and not be completely worthless at the same time.
So yeah I want to play a pure Black Legion force, most likely led by Abaddon and this codex 2.0 was the perfect occasion for GW to improve the very underwhelming Legion traits that suffer strongly from early codex syndrome.
And thus, it's disheartening to see GW only changed the Renegade traits while also making them much better than the Legion traits. The Original Legions you know, Veterans of the Long War, a force to be feared and reckoned with...
But no, simply wanting my faction, one of the major one in the game to be "OK" (i'm not even asking for OP or uber competitive, just OK) is apparently making me an entitled whiner.
It has previously been noted, but Renegades do not get Veterans of the Long War, probably the most useful stratagem in the book (well, when tag-teamed with some of the others anyway)
They also don't get Abaddon.
In fact, prior to this book Renegades didn't even get a relic or a warlord trait.
We've kinda had a bum deal for a while. Its nice we've been given some stuff to put us on more of an even position than some of the other codex.
Is it too much? Maybe, but perhaps the rest of the traits/relics/stratagems will balance it.
107034
Post by: krakjen
 Denny wrote: krakjen wrote:I like how some people are actually berating others for wanting to play a fluffy army and not be completely worthless at the same time.
So yeah I want to play a pure Black Legion force, most likely led by Abaddon and this codex 2.0 was the perfect occasion for GW to improve the very underwhelming Legion traits that suffer strongly from early codex syndrome.
And thus, it's disheartening to see GW only changed the Renegade traits while also making them much better than the Legion traits. The Original Legions you know, Veterans of the Long War, a force to be feared and reckoned with...
But no, simply wanting my faction, one of the major one in the game to be "OK" (i'm not even asking for OP or uber competitive, just OK) is apparently making me an entitled whiner.
It has previously been noted, but Renegades do not get Veterans of the Long War, probably the most useful stratagem in the book (well, when tag-teamed with some of the others anyway)
They also don't get Abaddon.
In fact, prior to this book Renegades didn't even get a relic or a warlord trait.
We've kinda had a bum deal for a while. Its nice we've been given some stuff to put us on more of an even position than some of the other codex.
Is it too much? Maybe, but perhaps the rest of the traits/relics/stratagems will balance it.
Just to be clear, I don't resent Renegades for getting a good traits.
My point is that everyone should have a good trait.
This just feels like GW doesn't care about the Legion having outdated underpowered traits and only cares about whatever is new at a given moment.
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Post by: Wayniac
Denny wrote: krakjen wrote:I like how some people are actually berating others for wanting to play a fluffy army and not be completely worthless at the same time. So yeah I want to play a pure Black Legion force, most likely led by Abaddon and this codex 2.0 was the perfect occasion for GW to improve the very underwhelming Legion traits that suffer strongly from early codex syndrome. And thus, it's disheartening to see GW only changed the Renegade traits while also making them much better than the Legion traits. The Original Legions you know, Veterans of the Long War, a force to be feared and reckoned with... But no, simply wanting my faction, one of the major one in the game to be "OK" (i'm not even asking for OP or uber competitive, just OK) is apparently making me an entitled whiner.
It has previously been noted, but Renegades do not get Veterans of the Long War, probably the most useful stratagem in the book (well, when tag-teamed with some of the others anyway) They also don't get Abaddon. In fact, prior to this book Renegades didn't even get a relic or a warlord trait. We've kinda had a bum deal for a while. Its nice we've been given some stuff to put us on more of an even position than some of the other codex. Is it too much? Maybe, but perhaps the rest of the traits/relics/stratagems will balance it.
VOTLW I can agree with, but the plethora of CP means you can spend a ton on other things. Abaddon? Just take him in another detachment since you're likely to only see the "Heretical 17" anyways. Automatically Appended Next Post: krakjen wrote: Just to be clear, I don't resent Renegades for getting a good traits. My point is that everyone should have a good trait. This just feels like GW doesn't care about the Legion having outdated underpowered traits and only cares about whatever is new at a given moment.
This is my problem, in a nutshell They *HAD* the chance to fix the lousy legion traits. They *CHOSE* not to and *CHOSE* to instead split up Renegades into 6 traits instead of 1 (so changing something but not everything) AND make them better than the Legions. It's classic GW, and it still after all these years feels like being smacked around and then told it's okay afterwards.
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Post by: Crimson
So in which codex has this actually happened? At the moment GW announced that there would be free subfaction traits, it was a foregone conclusion that some would be just better than others.
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Post by: Daedalus81
krakjen wrote: Denny wrote: krakjen wrote:I like how some people are actually berating others for wanting to play a fluffy army and not be completely worthless at the same time.
So yeah I want to play a pure Black Legion force, most likely led by Abaddon and this codex 2.0 was the perfect occasion for GW to improve the very underwhelming Legion traits that suffer strongly from early codex syndrome.
And thus, it's disheartening to see GW only changed the Renegade traits while also making them much better than the Legion traits. The Original Legions you know, Veterans of the Long War, a force to be feared and reckoned with...
But no, simply wanting my faction, one of the major one in the game to be "OK" (i'm not even asking for OP or uber competitive, just OK) is apparently making me an entitled whiner.
It has previously been noted, but Renegades do not get Veterans of the Long War, probably the most useful stratagem in the book (well, when tag-teamed with some of the others anyway)
They also don't get Abaddon.
In fact, prior to this book Renegades didn't even get a relic or a warlord trait.
We've kinda had a bum deal for a while. Its nice we've been given some stuff to put us on more of an even position than some of the other codex.
Is it too much? Maybe, but perhaps the rest of the traits/relics/stratagems will balance it.
Just to be clear, I don't resent Renegades for getting a good traits.
My point is that everyone should have a good trait.
This just feels like GW doesn't care about the Legion having outdated underpowered traits and only cares about whatever is new at a given moment.
Orks get really, really good traits. Why? Because they have other weaknesses to compensate for. Renegades have weaknesses as well. Are they enough to offset the traits? I don't know, but if you're WL is Abaddon then you've already covered most of the bonus for a RC detachment.
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Post by: krakjen
Crimson wrote:So in which codex has this actually happened? At the moment GW announced that there would be free subfaction traits, it was a foregone conclusion that some would be just better than others.
Nobody, sure but there is a difference between a codex with a couple of bad traits and the rest good and a codex where almost everything is bad and then GW release a v2 without changing anything,
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Post by: Wayniac
krakjen wrote: Crimson wrote:So in which codex has this actually happened? At the moment GW announced that there would be free subfaction traits, it was a foregone conclusion that some would be just better than others.
Nobody, sure but there is a difference between a codex with a couple of bad traits and the rest good and a codex where almost everything is bad and then GW release a v2 without changing anything,
Worse, where GW releases a v2 without changing anything except giving one subgroup of a subgroup inexplicably better talents than the ones they said they weren't going to change anything with, despite having the opportunity to do it and doing it for a minor part already.
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Post by: Daedalus81
They're quite late on today's article. I wonder if they're reworking it.
123200
Post by: Waaaghbert
Daedalus81 wrote:They're quite late on today's article. I wonder if they're reworking it.
Yeah, I was wondering about that too. Maybe they'll skip it today because they released two yesterday?
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Post by: stinkyjunk
Don't they want to get all the articles out to the masses by EOD this Friday...before the pre-release? Won't all of the youtubers be out in force with new content showing off the codex as soon as the pre-release happens? Just wondering.
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Post by: the_scotsman
And the second thing that's bad for the hobby is the high lethality mixed with an IGOUGO system. One person gets to Slaughter the other player, then that player responds with whatever they have left. In such a lethal game, it sort of requires alternate activation, or the meta goes strait for alpha strike which really isn't fun at all. Or reduce the lethality if they want to stick with IGOUGO so people can enjoy using their units that they've spent hours building and painting.
I agree with this pretty strongly, but it has little to do with a chaos release. I would definitely love a lethality decrease or alternating activations.
Cities of Death terrain rules and the addition of Prepared Positions have greatly reduced turn 1 lethality in my opinion, which was at this point limited to shooting armies because melee alpha strikes have already had their lethality reduced by the addition of the tactical reserves rule.
Most of the top level changes in this edition since its inception have been reductions to lethality.
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Post by: Brutus_Apex
40k will never reach its full potential as a game until alternating activations or even alternating sub-phases like Kill Team is implemented.
Everything is way too lethal in this game. You should be able to react to the opponent more.
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Post by: Albino Squirrel
In general I think the game would be a lot better with much reduced lethality. You'd get to have your nicely painted miniatures on the table longer. Everything wouldn't be about getting that alpha strike bomb off and just removing the opponent's best units before they get to do anything. And presumably the focus would shift more to completing objective and suppression or interfering with an opponents objectives, making it more tactically interesting.
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Post by: Mr.Church13
Waaaghbert wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:They're quite late on today's article. I wonder if they're reworking it.
Yeah, I was wondering about that too. Maybe they'll skip it today because they released two yesterday?
They still haven't done Word Bearers right? If not I can see why that might take them some time as pretty much everything unique to them is HOT GARBAGE.
It might take a bit to shine that up to any presentable degree.
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Post by: Nurglitch
When I was developing Titanomachina I found that alternating activations has its own list of problems. What I did was have (a) card-driven activations, and then (b) separate resolution.
For example, player A would activate a Leg card to move, and player B would activate a Weapon card to shoot. If player B wanted to shoot at player A, they would have to shoot that Weapon at that Leg. No activated system, then player B would get a called shot. An initiative system meant that while B could activate in reaction to A, A could resolve before B (and run behind a building, for example).
In Warhammer terms imagine each unit in the army has a card. You play a card, and then your opponent plays a card. Those activated units can move, shoot, move & shoot, etc, but in relation to each other. Activated cards go on the bottom of the deck, so horde-based armies are balanced against MSU armies.
Something for the Game Design forum, but just thought I'd throw that in here.
Also that I miss the options of going to ground and pinning.
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Post by: Wayniac
Mr.Church13 wrote:Waaaghbert wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:They're quite late on today's article. I wonder if they're reworking it.
Yeah, I was wondering about that too. Maybe they'll skip it today because they released two yesterday?
They still haven't done Word Bearers right? If not I can see why that might take them some time as pretty much everything unique to them is HOT GARBAGE.
It might take a bit to shine that up to any presentable degree.
I doubt it unless they already added it to the 2.0 codex or Vigilus
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Post by: Strg Alt
 Brutus_Apex wrote:40k will never reach its full potential as a game until alternating activations or even alternating sub-phases like Kill Team is implemented.
Everything is way too lethal in this game. You should be able to react to the opponent more.
I was preaching this for years but GW is not interested in this because it would require work. Just introduce homebrew rules for your group and everything will be fine. At least tanks can shoot laser beams from their antenna in 8th. That´s progress which GW likes.
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Post by: bullyboy
oh no, lol. They made it worse, haha.
And the poor Word Bearers, their trait sucks
to be fair though, at least there are other options to use when the reroll hits isn't going to be in effect that turn. But still.....
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Post by: Waaaghbert
So no new trait, as expected :(
and the prayer roll is a joke.....
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Post by: Red Corsair
New model is actually really awesome when given a quality paint job and a decent photo. I am sure they read the comments over the previous photo
Mixed feelings on the random power since
1. rerolls for days everywhere anyway
2. Apparently 11 total powers available to combo from means at least a few should be decent.
But failing a roll is going to be sour grapes, at least the attendants boost this and give a good excuse to run them.
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Post by: Wayniac
Now to be fair he now has 6 prayers to choose from not just the re-roll. Technically not a nerf. We just haven't seen the others yet
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Post by: Wayniac
His face looks stupid to me
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Post by: Voss
Mr.Church13 wrote:Waaaghbert wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:They're quite late on today's article. I wonder if they're reworking it.
Yeah, I was wondering about that too. Maybe they'll skip it today because they released two yesterday?
They still haven't done Word Bearers right? If not I can see why that might take them some time as pretty much everything unique to them is HOT GARBAGE.
It might take a bit to shine that up to any presentable degree.
Good news! They don't get anything unique.
Everything they focus on in that article is better as a corsair. Because then your melee troops being buffed can advance and charge.
----
Huh. Also out of everything yet presented for 'chaos marines', I want the disciples the most.
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Post by: bullyboy
yeah, the model is worth adding alone. Should easily be able to be converted to a cool Ordo Malleus Inquisitor too
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Post by: DrGiggles
If I had to guess they were concerned about the MW output from the rerolls and Shepherd of the True Faith, but jesus this make running a DA in a WE army less appealing unless you plan on running possessed instead of berserkers.
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Post by: grouchoben
I really like the look of the new mechanic, very promising with a 2+. And that literal word-bearing disciple model is amazing...
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Post by: topaxygouroun i
This is how all chaos cultists should be. Not like mad max NPC's.
My life for Ner'zul!
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Post by: Wayniac
That daemonkin strat seems pretty good though.
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Post by: Sotahullu
More pictures of Terminators:
Well those got Word Bearer decals.
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Post by: Platuan4th
 Albino Squirrel wrote:In general I think the game would be a lot better with much reduced lethality. You'd get to have your nicely painted miniatures on the table longer. Everything wouldn't be about getting that alpha strike bomb off and just removing the opponent's best units before they get to do anything. And presumably the focus would shift more to completing objective and suppression or interfering with an opponents objectives, making it more tactically interesting.
So you want the game to last LONGER than it already does?
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Post by: the_scotsman
....Saying the Dark Apostle is nerfed now is pretty much like if they released a preview for guard orders in 8th ed and only showed off the 8th version of "bring it down" so you conclude "hot damn they've actually nerfed guard orders guard are gonna be the suxors now!"
They nerfed a fight phase reroll to hit, making it go off on a 3+.
Hey MEQ players you guys are a melee army right? You use those rerolls to hit in the fight phase all the time!
If a single one of those chants is defensive in nature or shooty in nature this is a buff to the DA.
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Post by: Arachnofiend
The idea for the new Dark Apostle is really cool, but it depends on how good the other choices are; if you're only ever going to pick a Dark Apostle for one of them then yeah, this is a pretty unwarranted nerf. If nothing else, Omen of Potency makes it so that a Dark Apostle with the Black Mace hits about as hard as a Daemon Prince, which is fun.
The model is great, but I hope he has a helmeted version. >.>
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Post by: Rydria
I think we will get alpha legion later today, since i don't think they do reveals on saturday and they likely want all the previews out before pre orders go up, I think they will pair up emperor's children and world eaters since they are the mono god legions.
Also new dark apostle looks great apart from the head which is an easy fix, really looking forward to this release
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Post by: The Phazer
Those cultist types with the Dark Apostle are what I've wanted for 40K for literally years.
GW, please give us a box of them! (Ideally mixed gender, and with options for lasguns to convert to Brood Brothers).
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Post by: Kirasu
Amazing that Word Bearers (already a faction no one uses) is nerfed in a book that is barely playable if you use power armor. What in the world is the purpose of this unit now? They were already pretty bad except with Berserkers and now they're downright terrible.
Again, to say GW has some kind of game design direction is saying that throwing spaghetti against the wall is evidence of a "pattern".
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Post by: topaxygouroun i
 Platuan4th wrote: Albino Squirrel wrote:In general I think the game would be a lot better with much reduced lethality. You'd get to have your nicely painted miniatures on the table longer. Everything wouldn't be about getting that alpha strike bomb off and just removing the opponent's best units before they get to do anything. And presumably the focus would shift more to completing objective and suppression or interfering with an opponents objectives, making it more tactically interesting.
So you want the game to last LONGER than it already does?
Not longer. Still it's gonna be 6 turns. In fact with less shooting the phases will end sooner and the duration of the game will shorten. What he means is: When I spend a month painting and polishing my great army centerpiece, don't make me put it back in the case before I get the chance to even roll some dice with it just because more damage could be translated as having more fun.
I know it's almost a heretical thought these days, but it's actually not a bad thing to have models left on the table at the end of the game. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kirasu wrote:Amazing that Word Bearers (already a faction no one uses) is nerfed in a book that is barely playable if you use power armor. What in the world do non-word bearer dark apostles do then? They were already pretty bad except with Berserkers and now they're downright terrible.
Again, to say GW has some kind of game design direction is saying that throwing spaghetti against the wall is evidence of a "pattern".
Maybe they gone to like 30 pts and you can spam them.
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Post by: Mandragola
Brutus_Apex wrote:40k will never reach its full potential as a game until alternating activations or even alternating sub-phases like Kill Team is implemented.
Everything is way too lethal in this game. You should be able to react to the opponent more.
I really agree with this. It's just such a mad thing to keep IGOUGO when no other comparable game does. 8th ed feels like a potentially good game, ruined by a rotten mechanic right at its core.
At the UKGT this weekend there were at least two games that were obvioulsy going to be won by whoever went first. That basically applies to all games in which there are a lot of vehicles - which are just really good at killing each other. Fights between infantry tend to be resolved later once they start rapid firing and hitting each other in cc.
So I guess another solution might be modifiers to hit for range, like the old night fighting rules.
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Post by: Kirasu
Platuan4th wrote: Albino Squirrel wrote:In general I think the game would be a lot better with much reduced lethality. You'd get to have your nicely painted miniatures on the table longer. Everything wouldn't be about getting that alpha strike bomb off and just removing the opponent's best units before they get to do anything. And presumably the focus would shift more to completing objective and suppression or interfering with an opponents objectives, making it more tactically interesting.
So you want the game to last LONGER than it already does?
The problem with the length of the game revolves around Auras, re-rolls and modifiers to the dice (and True LOS but that plague is permanent it seems). These things rarely existed in any other edition but Age of Sigmar ushered in this non-sense.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Kirasu wrote: Platuan4th wrote: Albino Squirrel wrote:In general I think the game would be a lot better with much reduced lethality. You'd get to have your nicely painted miniatures on the table longer. Everything wouldn't be about getting that alpha strike bomb off and just removing the opponent's best units before they get to do anything. And presumably the focus would shift more to completing objective and suppression or interfering with an opponents objectives, making it more tactically interesting.
So you want the game to last LONGER than it already does?
The problem with the length of the game revolves around Auras, re-rolls and modifiers to the dice (and True LOS but that plague is permanent it seems). These things rarely existed in any other edition but Age of Sigmar ushered in this non-sense.
40K's always been a 2 hour plus game, aura's or no. Even before 8th, larger armies took longer to play, meaning less of the actual 6 turns played if you were worrying about time. Turning down the lethality means there's no reduction in unit count over the span of the game, keeping turn times longer for more of the game.
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Post by: BrianDavion
yeah but he has a number of other buffs he can apply, they've BASICLY given chaos a version of the IG's order system via the dark apostle. and presumably dark disiples will give a re-roll on that roll (or reduce it to a 2) so it's not too bad.
Over all, the word bearers chapter tactic still sucks but it looks like in terms of actual units, and that sort of thing, word bearers at least can be VERY fluffy
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Post by: Kirasu
BrianDavion wrote:
yeah but he has a number of other buffs he can apply, they've BASICLY given chaos a version of the IG's order system via the dark apostle. and presumably dark disiples will give a re-roll on that roll (or reduce it to a 2) so it's not too bad.
Over all, the word bearers chapter tactic still sucks but it looks like in terms of actual units, and that sort of thing, word bearers at least can be VERY fluffy
Version of the IG order system? This new ability requires a die roll. It's just a copy paste from Age of Sigmar prayers. Come on, it's a straight nerf for no reason.
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Post by: Latro_
ON FB Warhammer community said this prayer does not replace their inbuilt rule.
they are actually different inbuilt is re-roll failed this is re-roll hits...
why its the default prayer and so similar to their inbuilt ability is just confusing and meh
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Post by: Kirasu
 Latro_ wrote:ON FB Warhammer community said this prayer does not replace their inbuilt rule.
they are actually different inbuilt is re-roll failed this is re-roll hits...
why its the default prayer and so similar to their inbuilt ability is just confusing and meh
Well if that's the case, I guess it's not a strict nerf at least even if its very bizarre. Sounds like GW "designers" are confused by their own re-roll before modifiers rule and want new abilities to ignore it :p
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Post by: Tpiddy
If the disciples add plus 1, use a cp for a 2+ re-rollable on prayers. Seems fluffy and fun to have him giving out prayers to cultists blocks. Really depends on what the other prayers are. Deamonkin rule sounds interesting too for WB. This is good news!
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Post by: BrianDavion
Kirasu wrote:BrianDavion wrote:
yeah but he has a number of other buffs he can apply, they've BASICLY given chaos a version of the IG's order system via the dark apostle. and presumably dark disiples will give a re-roll on that roll (or reduce it to a 2) so it's not too bad.
Over all, the word bearers chapter tactic still sucks but it looks like in terms of actual units, and that sort of thing, word bearers at least can be VERY fluffy
Version of the IG order system? That requires a die roll. It's just a copy paste from Age of Sigmar prayers. Come on, it's a straight nerf for no reason.
ohh right I forgot IG noi longer had to roll for orders anymore. back before 8th they used to have to roll. Automatically Appended Next Post: Tpiddy wrote:If the disciples add plus 1, use a cp for a 2+ re-rollable on prayers. Seems fluffy and fun to have him giving out prayers to cultists blocks. Really depends on what the other prayers are. Deamonkin rule sounds interesting too for WB. This is good news!
I agree. dark disiples are definatly gonna be something that might actually be worth tossing in an army and I hope we see something like this for chaplains when marines inevitably get their 2.0 codex
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Post by: Arachnofiend
Kirasu wrote: Latro_ wrote:ON FB Warhammer community said this prayer does not replace their inbuilt rule.
they are actually different inbuilt is re-roll failed this is re-roll hits...
why its the default prayer and so similar to their inbuilt ability is just confusing and meh
Well if that's the case, I guess it's not a strict nerf at least even if its very bizarre. Sounds like GW "designers" are confused by their own re-roll before modifiers rule and want new abilities to ignore it :p
"Not a strict nerf"? It's an outright buff, lol. If you use Dark Zealotry than the DA's normal aura is improved to a Cawl-style aura.
Granted, penalties to hit aren't very plentiful in melee so I feel like I'd rather have a second one of the unknown prayers than Dark Zealotry.
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Post by: Red Corsair
The guy with insense burner has such a generic face I can't stop laughing. He looks most concerned with not catching himself on fire.
"Steve, Steve from accounting is that you?"
"Hey Tim!"
"What are you doing!?"
"The water heater broke again so I hit up Craigslist for some moonlighting gigs."
Lol
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Post by: Voss
BrianDavion wrote:
I agree. dark disiples are definatly gonna be something that might actually be worth tossing in an army and I hope we see something like this for chaplains when marines inevitably get their 2.0 codex
I hope not. Expendable, accompanying cultists are a chaos thing. Loyalist Chaplains don't generally have prayer slaves following them around, with one notable exception.
It would be a weird Fluff change, and a nonsensical muddying of faction identity.
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Post by: Kdash
So, to me i think this shows the future of Marine Chaplains as well. Can't see how they can do one but not the other.
As for the detachment, it's actually potentially worth using, especially if you want to add in a choppy Possessed detachment.
Word Bearers will however, remain fluff battles only though due to their trait.
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Post by: topaxygouroun i
Kdash wrote:So, to me i think this shows the future of Marine Chaplains as well. Can't see how they can do one but not the other.
You can't? I can see it clear as day. It would be exactly like making cultists 5 points and leaving guardsmen at 4. It would be exactly like reducing points in terminators in CA but reducing 5 points MORE in the loyalist side. It would be exactly like giving imperials 2 point storm shields and making scarab occult terminators suffer the movement penalty of the cataphractii armor while gaining the invul save of the tartaros armor.
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Post by: Arachnofiend
Latro_ wrote:ON FB Warhammer community said this prayer does not replace their inbuilt rule.
they are actually different inbuilt is re-roll failed this is re-roll hits...
why its the default prayer and so similar to their inbuilt ability is just confusing and meh
Could you link to the Facebook post where they said this? I've scanned through their replies myself and can't find it.
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Post by: grouchoben
It's the IF siegebreaker detachment's thing, but cut loose from a subsection and applied to CC. I really like it, as someone who goes fishing for MWs all the time with their IF Centurions. You won't have the same weight of dice here, however, and that's what makes it so powerful for IFs.
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Post by: Phobosftw
cant believe fools are already saying the Dark Apostle got nerfed.. NEWSFLASH youve seen 2 of 6 prayers (plus one for each god) -they go off on a super eazy 2+ btw (bring the disciples)
dakka crowd is a bunch of nerdy dramaqueens, change my mind.
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Post by: BigBrown
With that many prayers to choose from at least one of them is bound to be defensive, right? Obviously we have to wait and see but I´m hopeful this will end up being a big buff to the Apostle.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
So can someone start listing the units or abilities that create penalties to hit in melee?
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Post by: Kdash
 Phobosftw wrote:cant believe fools are already saying the Dark Apostle got nerfed.. NEWSFLASH youve seen 2 of 6 prayer (plus one for each god) -they go off on an eazy 2+ btw (bring the disciples)
dakka crowd is a bunch of nerdy dramaqueens, change my mind.
Well, technically it is a slight nerf to their re-roll aura ability as it can now fail  The other auras are probably ranging from good to super bad, but, it also means you sacrifice the re-rolls if you opt to use another pray.
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Post by: Tpiddy
Man if they come out with new possessed models im going to buy an entire detachment. Goes nice with the shadowspear stuff.
Also hoping for a multi part plastic kit for the oblits. Im going to be broke.
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Post by: Kirasu
Phobosftw wrote:cant believe fools are already saying the Dark Apostle got nerfed.. NEWSFLASH youve seen 2 of 6 prayer (plus one for each god) -they go off on an eazy 2+ btw (bring the disciples)
dakka crowd is a bunch of nerdy dramaqueens, change my mind.
You're justifying people's opinions based on your own blind Faith? There are countless examples of utterly awful rules being released (look at night Lords). Requiring a unit that can be shot off the board doesn't make a previously static ability any better. Let's have some understanding of how 40k actually plays.
I don't believe dark apostles kept their static ability. You trying to say that they now have 2 abilities called dark zealotry that do something different? That's not how GW operates.
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Post by: GaroRobe
I stand corrected. The Dark apostle isn't a bad model. I don't mind the flaming book, but I wish it wasn't bleeding. Painting it with blood for the blood god might look better.
Also, what is that one disciple carrying on his back? Its not a book. But I can't figure out.
Also also, will they come separately? Be a nice thing to do for people that have already bought the older apostle
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Post by: Latro_
Arachnofiend wrote: Latro_ wrote:ON FB Warhammer community said this prayer does not replace their inbuilt rule.
they are actually different inbuilt is re-roll failed this is re-roll hits...
why its the default prayer and so similar to their inbuilt ability is just confusing and meh
Could you link to the Facebook post where they said this? I've scanned through their replies myself and can't find it.
OMG they deleted the reply! haha so i bet it DOES replace it
1
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Post by: Wayniac
So far what I am most agitated about is all of these stratagems and specialist detachments are just going to encourage more CP farming (like from the "Heretical 17") when GW should be encouraging less.
I really really hope the FAQ reigns it in, that's my last hope that GW really doesn't intend for the game to be about CP batteries to power stratagems and specialist detachments. Because so far everything they've done, while it looks like it's meant to spend CP so you have less during the game, has just encouraged MORE CP farming.
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Post by: krakjen
So how much do you think those Dark Disciples will cost?
Because I highly doubt they would be free..
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Post by: aka_mythos
Kirasu wrote: Platuan4th wrote: Albino Squirrel wrote:In general I think the game would be a lot better with much reduced lethality. You'd get to have your nicely painted miniatures on the table longer. Everything wouldn't be about getting that alpha strike bomb off and just removing the opponent's best units before they get to do anything. And presumably the focus would shift more to completing objective and suppression or interfering with an opponents objectives, making it more tactically interesting.
So you want the game to last LONGER than it already does?
The problem with the length of the game revolves around Auras, re-rolls and modifiers to the dice (and True LOS but that plague is permanent it seems). These things rarely existed in any other edition but Age of Sigmar ushered in this non-sense.
Just to add to what you're saying... Why does GW like re-rolls? - Drama and reward; it draws out the experiential feedback that comes from anticipation of the consequences. Gives a player hope. But it draws out the game.
Re-rolls make individual dice rolls less consequential and draw out the order of play by inserting additional dice rolls outside the main sequence of rolls; just as random numbers of attacks and random weapon stats disrupt a continuous order of play. Its something that should be implemented in a narrower and more purposeful way. It'd probably end up with just as many problems, but statistically speaking a re-roll has the equivalent impact as some modifier, how much less dice rolling could there be with more modifiers and no re-rolls? -If an army has BS 5+ but always gets re-rolls, really it has as a matter of consequence a BS more like 4+... or mechanistically in place of re-rolls you could roll twice as many dice and cap the max number of successes at half that greater number of dice.
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Post by: Not Online!!!
So the apostle got even worse.
a IG commander can match and choose and order any squad,
ok this is an aura but on 3+ for an ability we had before?
I mean when was the last time you saw someone not completly fluffy fielding an apostle.
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Post by: Arachnofiend
 aka_mythos wrote: Kirasu wrote: Platuan4th wrote: Albino Squirrel wrote:In general I think the game would be a lot better with much reduced lethality. You'd get to have your nicely painted miniatures on the table longer. Everything wouldn't be about getting that alpha strike bomb off and just removing the opponent's best units before they get to do anything. And presumably the focus would shift more to completing objective and suppression or interfering with an opponents objectives, making it more tactically interesting.
So you want the game to last LONGER than it already does?
The problem with the length of the game revolves around Auras, re-rolls and modifiers to the dice (and True LOS but that plague is permanent it seems). These things rarely existed in any other edition but Age of Sigmar ushered in this non-sense.
Just to add to what you're saying... Why does GW like re-rolls? - Drama and reward; it draws out the experiential feedback that comes from anticipation of the consequences. Gives a player hope. But it draws out the game.
Re-rolls make individual dice rolls less consequential and draw out the order of play by inserting additional dice rolls outside the main sequence of rolls; just as random numbers of attacks and random weapon stats disrupt a continuous order of play. Its something that should be implemented in a narrower and more purposeful way. It'd probably end up with just as many problems, but statistically speaking a re-roll has the equivalent impact as some modifier, how much less dice rolling could there be with more modifiers and no re-rolls? -If an army has BS 5+ but always gets re-rolls, really it has as a matter of consequence a BS more like 4+... or mechanistically in place of re-rolls you could roll twice as many dice and cap the max number of successes at half that greater number of dice.
I mean, re-rolls also make rolls more reliable since you have more chances to get a good result. d6 is, naturally, swingier than 2d6 take highest. You don't really want to flood the game with modifiers because there's a hard cap on how good a positive modifier can be; if you think Guardsmen are better than Marines now, just imagine if both units were hitting on a 2+ because of stacking modifiers.
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Post by: Wayniac
Not Online!!! wrote:So the apostle got even worse.
a IG commander can match and choose and order any squad,
ok this is an aura but on 3+ for an ability we had before?
I mean when was the last time you saw someone not completly fluffy fielding an apostle.
Remember, he has 5 other prayers we haven't seen yet.
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Post by: bullyboy
Kdash wrote:So, to me i think this shows the future of Marine Chaplains as well. Can't see how they can do one but not the other.
As for the detachment, it's actually potentially worth using, especially if you want to add in a choppy Possessed detachment.
Word Bearers will however, remain fluff battles only though due to their trait.
Interrogator Chaplains don't sing....only their victims do when the blades cut deep
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Post by: Not Online!!!
Wayniac wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:So the apostle got even worse.
a IG commander can match and choose and order any squad,
ok this is an aura but on 3+ for an ability we had before?
I mean when was the last time you saw someone not completly fluffy fielding an apostle.
Remember, he has 5 other prayers we haven't seen yet.
That to me means jack, scuse me to say this.
The other prayers would need to be huge to justify the pricetag now.
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Post by: Kdash
krakjen wrote:So how much do you think those Dark Disciples will cost?
Because I highly doubt they would be free..
They'll prob be something like 5pts a model, like most of the buff style "add ons"
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Post by: Arachnofiend
Not Online!!! wrote:Wayniac wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:So the apostle got even worse.
a IG commander can match and choose and order any squad,
ok this is an aura but on 3+ for an ability we had before?
I mean when was the last time you saw someone not completly fluffy fielding an apostle.
Remember, he has 5 other prayers we haven't seen yet.
That to me means jack, scuse me to say this.
The other prayers would need to be huge to justify the pricetag now.
Considering the one new one we've seen makes a Dark Apostle hit as hard as the best melee HQ chaos has with the addition of a single relic, yeah, I think we can fairly assume they're going to be pretty good.
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Post by: Drudge Dreadnought
These new Priest rules are a big deal and very interesting, even assuming it replaced their existing Dark Zealotry aura. Since they are named the same thing, I bet they did. However it is true that in the current book, it's re-roll failed hits, and the new Prayer version is re-roll hit rolls. So that did improve slightly despite needing to roll to get it.
But this is still a MASSIVE improvement because 1) You get to do a prayer at the start of each battle round, so you get to have different buffs up on your opponents turn 2) you can bring multiple apostles to stack up different buffs.
Apostles are cheap, so bringing a couple to buff a lot of units could give some serious synergy. Of course it's all going to depend on what the other prayers are, and on if there are strats to know more prayers, cast more, etc. If there are any buffs to defense or shooting, then this is the most important change to chaos that we've seen so far.
The Daemonkin Ritualists detachment is also looking very attractive. Yet ANOTHER +1 str for possessed, and now also the +1 attack. That helps offset the random attacks of regular possessed. With this many buffs for them, and in the form of auras so you don't have to take 1 giant squad, we're looking at some serious killing potential. And Shepherd of the True Faith is most aimed at regular possessed because they have the most attacks to use with it. And since it's a specialist detachment warlord trait, it can be given by that strat we saw previewed in the Black Legion article.
This is all great stuff. (But I can't help but notice that it would have been so perfect for Word Bearers to get some sort of buff to prayers. What a waste.)
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Post by: Arachnofiend
Drudge Dreadnought wrote:This is all great stuff. (But I can't help but notice that it would have been so perfect for Word Bearers to get some sort of buff to prayers. What a waste.)
Who knows, they might. We haven't actually seen the Word Bearers specialist detachment, could be focused around Dark Apostles and Cultists.
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Post by: aka_mythos
Arachnofiend wrote: aka_mythos wrote: Kirasu wrote: Platuan4th wrote: Albino Squirrel wrote:In general I think the game would be a lot better with much reduced lethality. You'd get to have your nicely painted miniatures on the table longer. Everything wouldn't be about getting that alpha strike bomb off and just removing the opponent's best units before they get to do anything. And presumably the focus would shift more to completing objective and suppression or interfering with an opponents objectives, making it more tactically interesting.
So you want the game to last LONGER than it already does?
The problem with the length of the game revolves around Auras, re-rolls and modifiers to the dice (and True LOS but that plague is permanent it seems). These things rarely existed in any other edition but Age of Sigmar ushered in this non-sense.
Just to add to what you're saying... Why does GW like re-rolls? - Drama and reward; it draws out the experiential feedback that comes from anticipation of the consequences. Gives a player hope. But it draws out the game.
Re-rolls make individual dice rolls less consequential and draw out the order of play by inserting additional dice rolls outside the main sequence of rolls; just as random numbers of attacks and random weapon stats disrupt a continuous order of play. Its something that should be implemented in a narrower and more purposeful way. It'd probably end up with just as many problems, but statistically speaking a re-roll has the equivalent impact as some modifier, how much less dice rolling could there be with more modifiers and no re-rolls? -If an army has BS 5+ but always gets re-rolls, really it has as a matter of consequence a BS more like 4+... or mechanistically in place of re-rolls you could roll twice as many dice and cap the max number of successes at half that greater number of dice.
I mean, re-rolls also make rolls more reliable since you have more chances to get a good result. d6 is, naturally, swingier than 2d6 take highest. You don't really want to flood the game with modifiers because there's a hard cap on how good a positive modifier can be; if you think Guardsmen are better than Marines now, just imagine if both units were hitting on a 2+ because of stacking modifiers.
The example of roll 2 dice take the highest is statistically the same as a re-roll. In both instances you're rolling the same 2 dice, needing for one to exceed a particular value. IF you need to roll a 4+ to hit... rolling one dice you have 50% odds of success; if you get a re-roll you now have 75% odd of success. If you roll 2 dice and the highest needs to be 4+ to hit... you have 75% odds.
My point wasn't to insist on a particular course of action, it is that a series of die rolls have a particular percentage odds of a positive outcome; that those same odd can be arrived at in a variety of ways and that this is what GW effectively does with stats, modifiers, and re-rolls. However if a series of die rolls has a percentage odds of success, that series can be distilled to smaller number of rolls, or even a single one and have the same statistical possibility.
You could roll 2 dice take the highest, or roll one die than re-roll it, or you could roll a 4 sided dice and call it a success on all but a roll of one.
And like I said, this introduces its own batch of problems, but understanding the statistical reality you should start to realize you have a number of mechanics that effectively duplicate each other while slowing down the game. While there are advantages and disadvantages to different approaches when games can run long as a consequence of a greater number of re-rolls being added into the game its silly to ignore the root cause.
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Post by: Arachnofiend
...Yes? I wasn't comparing roll 2 take the highest to re-rolling a single dice, because I am also aware they are mostly the same thing (except in the very specific circumstance of morale rolls) I was comparing it to rolling a single dice.
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Post by: grouchoben
Honestly, the Apostle new rules is really good news for CSM - it's a new design space for buffs, and the army could really do with some, especially in defence and on the charge distance. There's a good chance we'll be seeing some significant powers, and the potential for more than one DA in an army: there's 10 powers in total to choose from, and the two we know about are both powerful.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Voss wrote:BrianDavion wrote:
I agree. dark disiples are definatly gonna be something that might actually be worth tossing in an army and I hope we see something like this for chaplains when marines inevitably get their 2.0 codex
I hope not. Expendable, accompanying cultists are a chaos thing. Loyalist Chaplains don't generally have prayer slaves following them around, with one notable exception.
It would be a weird Fluff change, and a nonsensical muddying of faction identity.
But for that one notable exception it would be spot-on. Just make it part of the Black Templars Chapter Tactics and make sure it's not a copy-paste of the Word Bearers' buff.
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Post by: Mchagen
Drudge Dreadnought wrote:But this is still a MASSIVE improvement because 1) You get to do a prayer at the start of each battle round, so you get to have different buffs up on your opponents turn 2) you can bring multiple apostles to stack up different buffs.
A battle round encompasses both player turns. This would not allow using different buffs on the opponents turn.
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Post by: Nightlord1987
GaroRobe wrote:
Also, what is that one disciple carrying on his back? Its not a book. But I can't figure out.
Looks like he is carrying a podium bookshelf when the DA neees to put the good book down.
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Post by: Latro_
Arachnofiend wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:Wayniac wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:So the apostle got even worse.
a IG commander can match and choose and order any squad,
ok this is an aura but on 3+ for an ability we had before?
I mean when was the last time you saw someone not completly fluffy fielding an apostle.
Remember, he has 5 other prayers we haven't seen yet.
That to me means jack, scuse me to say this.
The other prayers would need to be huge to justify the pricetag now.
Considering the one new one we've seen makes a Dark Apostle hit as hard as the best melee HQ chaos has with the addition of a single relic, yeah, I think we can fairly assume they're going to be pretty good.
Which best melee hq chaos unit would it make him hit as hard as, assuming he rolled a 3
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Post by: Arachnofiend
Latro_ wrote:Which best melee hq chaos unit would it make him hit as hard as, assuming he rolled a 3
A DA with the Black Mace is S7, AP-4, D2 with 7 attacks (plus a mortal wound ability).
A Daemon Prince with Malefic Talons is S7, AP-2, D2 with 7 attacks.
The Daemon Prince has psychic powers and moves faster of course, but also costs way more. I'm mostly hoping for a prayer that helps the DA move up the board, if we get one of those then using the Apostle as a combatant in his own right seems very viable.
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Post by: BrianDavion
Voss wrote:BrianDavion wrote:
I agree. dark disiples are definatly gonna be something that might actually be worth tossing in an army and I hope we see something like this for chaplains when marines inevitably get their 2.0 codex
I hope not. Expendable, accompanying cultists are a chaos thing. Loyalist Chaplains don't generally have prayer slaves following them around, with one notable exception.
It would be a weird Fluff change, and a nonsensical muddying of faction identity.
they don't no, but I'm more talking the prayer system which would be expanded on easily eneugh, give a chaplain multiple Litanies to choose from. disiples could simply be a chaos only thing, or an equivilant with I dunno, cherubs and servo skulls could be given. I just like the idea of Chaplains applying differant buffs dependant on the situation it increases their flexability and makes them useful to armies without an assault focus.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:So can someone start listing the units or abilities that create penalties to hit in melee?
Off the top of my head you have:
Mandrakes
Any eldar with lightning fast reactions
Fog of dreams
Veil of Tears
Drain
The horror
Mass Hypnosis
Several WLT's
Glamer of Tzeentch
Miasma of Pestilence
Plague bearers over 20
hmmm.. I am running out of gas but I bet there are more.
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
BrianDavion wrote:Voss wrote:BrianDavion wrote:
I agree. dark disiples are definatly gonna be something that might actually be worth tossing in an army and I hope we see something like this for chaplains when marines inevitably get their 2.0 codex
I hope not. Expendable, accompanying cultists are a chaos thing. Loyalist Chaplains don't generally have prayer slaves following them around, with one notable exception.
It would be a weird Fluff change, and a nonsensical muddying of faction identity.
they don't no, but I'm more talking the prayer system which would be expanded on easily eneugh, give a chaplain multiple Litanies to choose from. disiples could simply be a chaos only thing, or an equivilant with I dunno, cherubs and servo skulls could be given. I just like the idea of Chaplains applying differant buffs dependant on the situation it increases their flexability and makes them useful to armies without an assault focus.
They'd probably just have loyalist chaplains always succeed without a roll.
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Post by: spiralingcadaver
Voss wrote:I hope not. Expendable, accompanying cultists are a chaos thing. Loyalist Chaplains don't generally have prayer slaves following them around, with one notable exception.
It would be a weird Fluff change, and a nonsensical muddying of faction identity.
They have chapter serfs, servo-etc.s, servitors (of gunner, support, and medical varieties at least), often de facto PDFs under them. There are absolutely tons of pics, IIRC esp 2nd-5th editions, that illustrate various cult helpers following around chapters, on and off the field.
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Post by: Eldarain
While I should know better by now, it's still disappointing to see them buff one of the best traits in the book while leaving the worst trait in the game as is.
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Post by: Mandragola
To me, the prayers mechanic is perfect. Because it turns the dark apostle from a model that you see absolutely never, ever, to one that you might see.
Every damn thing in this game gives a reroll aura. Dark apostles and Chaplains (which I hope to see get the same buff) never appear because they are just worse versions of Chaos Lords and Captains.
Now, if their prayers have some kind of actual effect, they could be pretty good. I'd certainly love to use my Primaris Chaplain rather than a lieutenant if I could.
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Post by: drakerocket
Would have been nice. Heck even a marginal one: Reroll failed morale; in addition, World Bearer Characters may attempt to Summon in the same round as moving. Oh well, lots of other good stuff, moving on.
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Post by: Kirasu
Best use is going to be renegades, forget word bearers and their awful trait.
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Post by: Daedalus81
Kirasu wrote:Amazing that Word Bearers (already a faction no one uses) is nerfed in a book that is barely playable if you use power armor. What in the world is the purpose of this unit now? They were already pretty bad except with Berserkers and now they're downright terrible.
Again, to say GW has some kind of game design direction is saying that throwing spaghetti against the wall is evidence of a "pattern".
Is no one aware of the disciples boosting the roll? Do we always just just to stupid conclusions?
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Post by: Luke_Prowler
There's also power fists, so that would make Dark Zealotry works better with Terminators (if you're the type to give your terminators PFs, anyway)
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Post by: Tibs Ironblood
Now if something could be done to make actual chaos space marines and terminators not suck we could get something going here. I'd love to start a chaos marine army, but I can't get pass the feel of how unmarine like they would feel compared to primaris space marines who are already not cutting edge, but better. You buy into this army of cutthroat murdering monster marines some of which are veterans of the long war with countless battles and kills to their record and they are still beyond pathetic in killing power and are only good for falling over and dying while providing extra CP for a few key power units to do all of the work.
I just can't buy into the feel and theme of this army when the core of it so limp fisted and I'm willing to bet the terminator portion won't be any better.
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Post by: Fayric
Great to see fluffy wordbearers get someting useful and fun.
Running possessed and apostles, trying to be glad about improved summoning, has been hard.
Not anything super competetive, yet bring some fun synnergy and options to your playstyle.
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Post by: drbored
Daedalus81 wrote: Kirasu wrote:Amazing that Word Bearers (already a faction no one uses) is nerfed in a book that is barely playable if you use power armor. What in the world is the purpose of this unit now? They were already pretty bad except with Berserkers and now they're downright terrible.
Again, to say GW has some kind of game design direction is saying that throwing spaghetti against the wall is evidence of a "pattern".
Is no one aware of the disciples boosting the roll? Do we always just just to stupid conclusions?
Welcome to the Dakkadakka echo chamber, where one person reads half of the news, misquotes it into their summary and rant, and everyone else just takes that as the gospel without actually reading the article.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Red Corsair wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:So can someone start listing the units or abilities that create penalties to hit in melee?
Off the top of my head you have:
Mandrakes
Any eldar with lightning fast reactions
Fog of dreams
Veil of Tears
Drain
The horror
Mass Hypnosis
Several WLT's
Glamer of Tzeentch
Miasma of Pestilence
Plague bearers over 20
hmmm.. I am running out of gas but I bet there are more.
Not really a lot to be honest. I think there should be more modifiers for melee to be honest, but people already complain about shooting penalties so... Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, the FW dude from the Executioners Chapter has a negative modifier. We can add him.
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Post by: Saturmorn Carvilli
I could see prayers being something IG orders with a chance to fail roll having potential. The prayers just need to be something worth doing to have players wanting to bring the Dark Apostle.
I could even see some prayer effects having a negative consequence (this is Chaos after all) such as taking a wound, regular or mortal, for especially powerful prayers.
This would definitely allow the Word Bearers to have something like a free re-roll on the prayer chant and/or special table of prayers only they have access to as a replacement or even supplement to their very lack luster legion trait.
I just don't see Games Workshop doing something like that given the amount of additional effort they have shown currently.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Red Corsair wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:So can someone start listing the units or abilities that create penalties to hit in melee?
Off the top of my head you have:
Mandrakes
Any eldar with lightning fast reactions
Fog of dreams
Veil of Tears
Drain
The horror
Mass Hypnosis
Several WLT's
Glamer of Tzeentch
Miasma of Pestilence
Plague bearers over 20
hmmm.. I am running out of gas but I bet there are more.
Not really a lot to be honest. I think there should be more modifiers for melee to be honest, but people already complain about shooting penalties so...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, the FW dude from the Executioners Chapter has a negative modifier. We can add him.
Tau Stealthsuits.
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Post by: Sgt. Cortez
Pretty cool, the apostle was already an auto-include in every melee heavy CSM list, now even more so. It will be interesting to see what the other prayers are. And best thing, I already have quite a number of nurgley friends to use as disciples...
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Post by: Dudeface
What datasheets are we looking at being changed/added at this point? Must be pushing a dozen including cultists?
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
On the subject of the Imperium not having anything like those disciples:
That is all.
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Post by: Strg Alt
 lord_blackfang wrote:I really wish they went back to the "metal men" concept for Obliterators instead of doubling down on the crappy "Terminators with cancer" reimagining.
I still have three metal men aka Oblits. The new versions with hellflesh looked as if they all had the Mark of Nurgle. Hard pass on these guys.
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Post by: Galas
As a Blades of Khorne player, Prayers are amazing and even more having a +1 to cast them with just a couple of those dudes.
I wouldn't change my khorne prayers of AoS for magic powers.
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Post by: Strg Alt
JSG wrote: Darkseid wrote:Why do some players want Oldmarines to be gone so badly?
Given the different aesthetics and battlefield roles, I think there is space for both Oldmarines and Primaris to co-exist.
The whole debate sounds more like a case of 'I told you that evil GeeDubz is screwing you over', than actually support for either of the marines.
I want it because I find deluded ramblings about manlets staying around forever, or Japanese blind boxes showing the range is in rude heath tedious. Also, the quicker they make the transition the less the lore will suffer. I'm not too bothered by the Primaris lore myself, but I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't have preferred them being introduced as the new, upscaled SM range. Ultimately this happened after Rogue Trader, it happened after 2nd edition and who still plays with 3rd edition tactical squads? Just use your old army for historical wars (Badab) and buy a new army for "current" ones. Everyone has done it multiple times before after all.
I still use my old Tac squads and I will never buy a box of Primaris. Automatically Appended Next Post:  aracersss wrote:if obliterators are to get buffed stats ... I still hope they come in units of 3
Yeah, they come in units of 3 and you get two in a box. GW does what they can best which is screwing the player.
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Post by: Elbows
Actually, no. The new Obliterator datasheet changes the unit number from three to 1-3, so a box of two is "fine". I'm completely fine with griping about GW but the whinging over "screwing the player" is silly.
GW does indeed have some really misaligned strategies...this isn't one of them.
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Post by: Virules
The people thinking Dark Apostle got nerfed are just too.blind to think through the new combos with relics, warlord traits, and detachment goodies. Dark Apostle might be auto include for me now, especially as Word Bearers or Emperor's Children. I'm doing a livestream YouTube episode this week anyway for my Warp Surge Radio podcast and I was anyway going to talk about how to win with Slaanesh with all the new combos you can do with Slaanesh CSM and Daemons. I'm definitely going to be talking about the Dark Apostle.
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Post by: grouchoben
Just mailed the FAQ team to flag up the embarked Apostle problem. Hopefully they've already thought of this and give him an exception. If not the poor fella will be much maligned upon release!
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Daedalus81 wrote: Kirasu wrote:Amazing that Word Bearers (already a faction no one uses) is nerfed in a book that is barely playable if you use power armor. What in the world is the purpose of this unit now? They were already pretty bad except with Berserkers and now they're downright terrible.
Again, to say GW has some kind of game design direction is saying that throwing spaghetti against the wall is evidence of a "pattern".
Is no one aware of the disciples boosting the roll? Do we always just just to stupid conclusions?
Because obviously the disciples aren't going to cost extra, right? And there's no way they're upping the pts for the apostle himself due to his new rules. No way.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
AlmightyWalrus wrote:On the subject of the Imperium not having anything like those disciples:
That is all.
Grimaldus is a particular special character.
That is all.
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Post by: Facisminthe41m
Seeing the new chaos terminators painted up as word bearers in today's preview... Sorry not sorry those are the best looking lightening claws i've ever seen on a GW model. I like the chaos terminators best out of all the new models.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Sgt. Cortez wrote:Pretty cool, the apostle was already an auto-include in every melee heavy CSM list, now even more so. It will be interesting to see what the other prayers are. And best thing, I already have quite a number of nurgley friends to use as disciples...
Do you write for the GW Community website or something?
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Post by: BrianDavion
 Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Daedalus81 wrote: Kirasu wrote:Amazing that Word Bearers (already a faction no one uses) is nerfed in a book that is barely playable if you use power armor. What in the world is the purpose of this unit now? They were already pretty bad except with Berserkers and now they're downright terrible.
Again, to say GW has some kind of game design direction is saying that throwing spaghetti against the wall is evidence of a "pattern".
Is no one aware of the disciples boosting the roll? Do we always just just to stupid conclusions?
Because obviously the disciples aren't going to cost extra, right? And there's no way they're upping the pts for the apostle himself due to his new rules. No way.
my guess is the apostle will cost the same as he did before and the disiples will be added on. sort of a nice way to allow people who run a DA in their list already to not edit it if they don't wish too
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Post by: Strg Alt
Elbows wrote:Actually, no. The new Obliterator datasheet changes the unit number from three to 1-3, so a box of two is "fine". I'm completely fine with griping about GW but the whinging over "screwing the player" is silly.
GW does indeed have some really misaligned strategies...this isn't one of them.
Actually, yes. Someone wants to field three as I have for the last 15 years as it is good and proper and you only get two in a box. Why don´t they sell 8 Tacticals in a box? Would also be totally fine by your reasoning.
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Post by: Elbows
Actually no. Why don't they sell 30 plaguebearers in a box when I can run them in a squad that big? You can run the models out of the box...you're presenting it (wrongly) as if you're suddenly unable to field the three models you own.
You explicitly mentioned the two models being in the box as if it were illegal to run them that way. So you're incorrect.
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Post by: SlaveToDorkness
What hes saying is they boxed them to where you automatically are one short or have one too many. It IS a GW tactic to box things in a manner to force you to buy too much or suffer having not enough.
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Post by: Strg Alt
 SlaveToDorkness wrote:What hes saying is they boxed them to where you automatically are one short or have one too many. It IS a GW tactic to box things in a manner to force you to buy too much or suffer having not enough.
You hit the nail on the head.
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Post by: dogfender
Seems the design studio blew the opportunity to correct the horrible arm positioning/ anatomy of the terminators.
If it’s a choice to have the arms come out of their heads it’s a poor one lol
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seems the design studio blew the opportunity to correct the horrible arm positioning/ anatomy of the terminators.
If it’s a choice to have the arms come out of their heads it’s a poor one lol
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Post by: Grot 6
I like the chaos, but I am not to Jazzed on the new "Primus"... its like every week we're getting them jammed down our throats if we like them or not... By now, my 7 ft tall gods of war are feeling a little pushed to the side for 9 ft tall REMF Repo Depo Marines... Its like the S and T platoon ate their Wheaties. and are flexing in the battalion gym while everyone else is in the field.
There is a Civil War a brewing...
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Post by: CREEEEEEEEED
 Strg Alt wrote: SlaveToDorkness wrote:What hes saying is they boxed them to where you automatically are one short or have one too many. It IS a GW tactic to box things in a manner to force you to buy too much or suffer having not enough.
You hit the nail on the head.
Not at all. You are not one short or one too many. You have a unit of two. If you want to run a unit of three, buy more (which will allow you to run two units of two or one of three and one of one, so you certainly do not have one too many). If you don't want to buy more, then run the models you have.
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Post by: Platuan4th
 Grot 6 wrote:I like the chaos, but I am not to Jazzed on the new "Primus"...
Primaris. They are neither a band nor creator god of Cybertron.
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Post by: Strg Alt
Kirasu wrote: Brutus_Apex wrote:More garbage rules and useless/redundant strategems.
More seriously though, did anyone think chaos would be getting good rules?
and this is why I don't consider GW "game designers" or "rules writers" since these could be fixed with a few damn seconds of thought or understanding of the game.
GW is a model company and not a games company.
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Post by: Daedalus81
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Daedalus81 wrote: Kirasu wrote:Amazing that Word Bearers (already a faction no one uses) is nerfed in a book that is barely playable if you use power armor. What in the world is the purpose of this unit now? They were already pretty bad except with Berserkers and now they're downright terrible.
Again, to say GW has some kind of game design direction is saying that throwing spaghetti against the wall is evidence of a "pattern".
Is no one aware of the disciples boosting the roll? Do we always just just to stupid conclusions?
Because obviously the disciples aren't going to cost extra, right? And there's no way they're upping the pts for the apostle himself due to his new rules. No way.
Likely no more than 5 points and that's baseless conjecture.
I'll tell you what is true though. NO ONE used him before. Now we have an undeniable spellcaster with no less than 10 possible spells.
It is the best outcome for the DA and CSM.
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Post by: SlaveToDorkness
 CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Strg Alt wrote: SlaveToDorkness wrote:What hes saying is they boxed them to where you automatically are one short or have one too many. It IS a GW tactic to box things in a manner to force you to buy too much or suffer having not enough.
You hit the nail on the head.
Not at all. You are not one short or one too many. You have a unit of two. If you want to run a unit of three, buy more (which will allow you to run two units of two or one of three and one of one, so you certainly do not have one too many). If you don't want to buy more, then run the models you have.
Goddam... I hurt my eyes rolling them so hard at reading this. Obtuse Level: 1000.
Our point is, you can't buy the units maximum number due to the way it's packaged. Like hotdogs come in 12s and buns come in 8s... See Steve Martin in Parenthood.
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Strg Alt wrote: SlaveToDorkness wrote:What hes saying is they boxed them to where you automatically are one short or have one too many. It IS a GW tactic to box things in a manner to force you to buy too much or suffer having not enough.
You hit the nail on the head.
I heard GW retains a mathematician on staff for this very purpose.
They don't let him write rules though.
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Post by: Strg Alt
Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I'm getting one of these for my Alpha Legion Kill Team, naming him "Blane". He's gonna chew Lho leaves, and name that gun "Elder Without Pain".
Aka sexual tyrannosaurus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylnZ22mJuBw
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Post by: timd
Nightlord1987 wrote:GaroRobe wrote:
Also, what is that one disciple carrying on his back? Its not a book. But I can't figure out.
Looks like he is carrying a podium bookshelf when the DA neees to put the good book down.
Mobile lectern...
T
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Post by: Strg Alt
Christ, who is this Skeletor dude? Looks aweful.
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Post by: Souljet
dogfender wrote:Seems the design studio blew the opportunity to correct the horrible arm positioning/ anatomy of the terminators.
If it’s a choice to have the arms come out of their heads it’s a poor one lol
I thought I was the only person to notice how awful this is. It’s like they’ve gone backwards in time while every other new terminator sculpt in recent years has gone some way to trying to correct it. The helmet-less sergeant in particular is difficult to look at. His shoulders almost appear above his head 
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Post by: Eldenfirefly
There is so much CSM stuff coming out. I am absolutely loving it. So many options, so much additional ways to tweak and build our armies. I seriously don't get the negativity. We are getting lots of new models, and new and old units (revamped). New Malefic psychics, new prayer spells, a ton of new legion/renegade traits, a ton of new warlord traits, new relics, new formations, new strategems...
Its like Christmas for Chaos !!!! I am going to go on such a crazy buying spree... lol My wallet is going to hate me.
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