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Greets Dakkanoughts! First post here, but I've been a longtime lurker. I am also a pretty avid Necron player, and naturally have been reading the "internet buzz" on the new 'dex. I've seen a ton of debates about Necron cc and honestly let me say I agree, I2 hurts us and though mathhammer shows us some adequate matchups, is there anything that is actually going to stand a chance of really winning combat against the most serious cc units in Warhammer 40k?

I've seen debates raging about how expensive things are and really we have a couple of ways of going. Flayed Ones seem fairly viable, especially in groups of 20 with a Lord and Wraiths with a Destroyer Lord seem pretty beefy. But honestly, even these are a gamble. Lychguard with shields can win, but they require a unit of 10 with Lord/Res Orb support that's over a 500 point sinkhole that in many fights won't lose, but won't necessarily win big enough to warrant that many points invested.

So I've been looking at Mindshackle Scarabs. Also been looking at some battle reports and they seem to be performing really well. So that leads me to ask, "Why not use the enemy's really awesome CC against it?" Mindshackle Scarabs are insane because they go off before assault is resolved and if they hit, they rob a unit of its attacks against you, but put d3 attacks against its own unit. 1 seems nice. 2 seems nicer, but how about we really abuse this and run a unit with 4.

Necron Lord w/ Warscythe, Mindshackle Scarabs, Phase Shifter, Res Orb - 135
Necron Lord w/ Warscythe, Mindshackle Scarabs, Phase Shifter - 105
Necron Lord w/ Warscythe, Mindshackle Scarabs, Phase Shifter - 105
Necron Lord w/ Warscythe, Mindshackle Scarabs, Phase Shifter - 105
Cryptek - Harbinger of Eternity w/ Chronometron - 40

Total point investment - 490

Option if you really want to go insane you can tag on Sempiternal Weave for the 2+ regular save for another 60 to all Lords and comes in at 550 points. Also you can "bargain basement" this unit if you are a total gambler and run no Phase Shifter and remove a whole heapton of points.

So I'm sure that people are going "Wow, noob, why would you ever invest 550 points in a unit?" -- people are just going to blow it up. Look at the cost of 10X Lychguard + Support lord w/ Warscythe and Res Orb. 535 points ..

The unit above is beastly. No bones. It's 5 models, but on a charge it has 12 attacks on a charge @ STR 7 that don't allow armor saves. Is the unit tough? Well, you've got a unit with a 2+/3++/4++. Chronometron cheats are in full effect with the re-roll every phase. But what really makes this unit is the 4 chances with a 50% chance to force a unit to massacre itself. Immagine if you Shackle even 2 models -- that's an average of 2 less models in the squad hitting you and generating up to 6 attacks additional. If you get insanely lucky you can technically generate 12 attacks + 12 additional from the unit attacking itself. Unlikely, but certainly if all that lands it is going to be utterly devastating to the opponent's unit.

In addition since this is a Royal Court you can take Nemesor Zahndrekh and well, give the unit Furious Charge (STR 8 and I3), Counter Assault, and even Stealth if you need to get them to move out in the open.

So yes, this unit does have some movement and deployment challenges. Take a squad of 10x Warriors, and swap the Court into a Ghost Ark. Now you have a Deathstar unit inside a AV 13 shell to make it unattractive to your enemy to shoot them all to hell in the 1st few rounds. Your opponent is going to have to pour some MAJOR firepower into breaking the Ark, then breaking the unit inside. The only obvious weakness in this group is the 1 wound, but well, let's face it, you can't have it all.

I'm not expecting this is 100% amazing solution and god it is costly - probably not even competetive. But if you were looking at a serious Lychguard-level of investment in points, this might be a nice, totally fun alternative. Part of me just wants to see what 4 Mindshackle Scarabs are going to do to a unit. At the very least, if a lot hit it's going to be funny as all get-out to watch if it hits and you watch a unit of Terminators literally deciminate themselves with their own weapons. Plus, if you get ahold of say, Abaddon, Logan, Vect or some other beast... wow.

Just to let you know after closely reading the rules for mindshackle scarabs you don't get to deal d3 attacks, but d3 hits to his unit. Of course that makes it even better that they auto hit.

I definately think it would be a fun unit to play in friendly games but it won't likely be tournament worthy.

You could also save 15 points by dropping a Phase Shifter in exchange for the Cryptek getting a Timesplinter Cloak. Same amount of saves for fewer points.

You could also drop another Phase Shifter to save points. If the scarabs work out, then you shouldn't need too many 3++. If they don't work the way you want, well then you probably still aren't going to miss it.

somerandomdude wrote:You could also save 15 points by dropping a Phase Shifter in exchange for the Cryptek getting a Timesplinter Cloak. Same amount of saves for fewer points.

You could also drop another Phase Shifter to save points. If the scarabs work out, then you shouldn't need too many 3++. If they don't work the way you want, well then you probably still aren't going to miss it.

Hrm, this unit becomes a bit more affordable by dropping a Phase Shifter and gaining 15 points. Goes from 550 to 490. Still a steep investment, but it seems no serious Necron CC that plans on winning vs tarpitting or "maybe" winning is going to be cheap.

Appreciate the tips. I will likely just run this to see what happens. Absolutely not meant as competetive, but certainly something that could see play somewhere and certainly cause your opponent some psychological damage.

490 isn't out of bounds for a deathstar, and with the availability of open topped vehicles, it's perfectly viable; especially by adding Vargard Obyron as the captain of this little death-boat to pull them out of assault if they're in danger of getting outnumbered.

You can have 5 lords AND 5 cryptoteks in the same court remember, so you could have 1 more lord, if you want.

If you are adding Vanguard Obryn to the unit, I'd take off 2 warscythes and add in another basic lord, so your unit will have 2 + Obryns. That gives you 3 staffs of light (str 5, ap 3, 12 inches) to pew pew from your ghost arc.

You should probably add a rez orb in too, so they get the 4+ reanimation protcols...instead of 5+....

Also if the unit gets wiped out, ever living means they can all come back to life, which is crazah

The 'court isn't going to be the deathstar unit in this codex.

The Deathstar unit will be Obyron leading Sword/Board Lychguard, with a Res Orb/Warscythe/MSS lord (or two, depending on the FAQ) attached.

It's certainly expensive, but absurdly difficult to remove. T5 all around, invuln saves which happily bounce back high power weaponry, PWs, Deep Strike.

I envision a Necron army that revolves around high-mobility threats rushing in on the first turn, then deep striking the above unit in to screw with their target priority. Seriously, even if you have a 15xML list, how do you decide between the lychguard death squadron, a doom scythe, a CCB, and advancing scarabs?

The nice thing about the court is they all have everliving, right? So if they are all wiped they can still get up?

As for lychguard, I dont know how good they really are with swords. Getting tarpitted seems to be a problem, and yes you can deepstrike out, but deepstriking a deathstar is unbelievably risky. Adding nemmy so ob doesnt scatter paints a big target on h

I didn't even think of using a Court in that way...really cool idea. It will have problems, yeah, but if you roll well could be oh-so-much fun.

What happens if a Dark Eldar player shoots your 500 point unit with three or four Venoms? (answer: you die) Generally speaking, undifferentiated 1W T5 3+ save models aren't exactly the most resilient things in the game. True deathstar units tend to be hard to kill, and this-- well, isn't, though Resurrection Protocols make it somewhat more annoying to take out than one might first expect. Honestly, paying >100 points for one wound T5 3+ save models isn't a very realistic idea.

I don't know the output of Venoms off the top of my head, but assuming you throw 50 BS4 4+ poisoned shots at a Lychguard unit with a Rez Orb, you only kill 2 or 3.

Each venom drops 12 shots at 36". Using bs4. Each one should hit 8 times, wounding on 4+ causing 5 wounds and 2 dead on average. The thing to remember however, is venoms rarely travel alone, so 3 or 4 dropping into your deathstar is probally wiping it out. Additionally the passengers are packing rifles and probally a blaster or 4 if trueborn. And blasters will just gank them. Finally, lance fire sort of negates the quantum shields hitting your tanks 3+ glancing on 4+ and if penned the thing is wrecked on 4+.

Not a sure thing, but certainly enough that. DE can probally deal with it easy enough. And for the low cost of. 70pts per venom, and 173 for a 4 man blaster squad. For the 500 pts your paying, I can match 3 full wych squads with hidden power weapons, shared nets to negate yur attacks and I have a 4++ and if pain tokened up FNP as well.

DarkHound wrote:I don't know the output of Venoms off the top of my head

12 shots @ 36" range for 65 points

Just to put this out there, but DE are the kings of anti infantry shooting. Trying to say that your death star must solo the best anti infantry shooting army is not really fair.

For the record, a standard venomspam list runs 8 venoms. That is 32 wounds a turn on any kind of model/unit, as currently no unit is immune to poison (which is odd). So on a unit with 3+ saves, 8 venoms can do 10 wounds. If you have lychguard with shields, they dont help here. Now, the best protection you can get is taking 2 2+ armor save characters with 3 wounds in your lychguard unit. That pads your survivability quite a bit, but the big issue with them is that they wont get RP when failing saves on their 2+ until they die. Since you dont want your characters to die, after they each absorb 2 wounds then your lychguard will be exposed, and a smart DE player will commit enough to wipe the entire unit out so that they dont get RP on the lychguard.

Or, in other words, the deathstar has only 1-2 turns before its neutered by shooting. In that time, however, a well built cron army can deal with 8 venoms, as unlike most armies every gun every cron unit gets kills a venom, and with the exception of warriors every units guns are at least s5.

The real issue with crons is not the shooting defense, however, its that while the deathstar is decent, they dont hit very hard against DE. The s5 powerweapons will be stuck forever against big beast units, and wyches have that great 4++ save and the ability to take away attacks. DE dont care if the deathstar kills a 5 man warrior squad, so what do you do with your giant deathstar to make it worthwhile?

I'll stick to Wraiths, Flayed ones and VOD Lords thanks.

6 Wariths 3 whip coils, 2 PArticle Caster, 2 Transdimensional beamer (arranged for wound allocation) and a Destroyer lord with Minshackle scarabs and +2 save comes in at 440 points, and is a fast moving, hard hitting unit with 3++ save, wound allocation and a T6 body to take strength 8+ wounds (that gets 2+ save from missiles).

Not quite as immortal as some of the others, but still able to take a fair amount of beating.

DarthSpader wrote:Each venom drops 12 shots at 36". Using bs4. Each one should hit 8 times, wounding on 4+ causing 5 wounds and 2 dead on average. The thing to remember however, is venoms rarely travel alone, so 3 or 4 dropping into your deathstar is probally wiping it out. Additionally the passengers are packing rifles and probally a blaster or 4 if trueborn. And blasters will just gank them. Finally, lance fire sort of negates the quantum shields hitting your tanks 3+ glancing on 4+ and if penned the thing is wrecked on 4+.

Not a sure thing, but certainly enough that. DE can probally deal with it easy enough. And for the low cost of. 70pts per venom, and 173 for a 4 man blaster squad. For the 500 pts your paying, I can match 3 full wych squads with hidden power weapons, shared nets to negate yur attacks and I have a 4++ and if pain tokened up FNP as well.

There's some funky Math going on in this thread so just wanted clear some thing up. 12 shots at BS 4 hit 8 and wound 4, not 5. If given the 2+ save, and for the sake of argument if we're trying to create an unstoppable juggernaut I think you would have to give them all the 2+, then your getting .67 wounds per venom volley. So it should take roughly 6 venoms to lay down 4 lords. That's 390 points (assuming they didn't take night shields, and pretending the units they are carrying are free) worth of fire-power to take 450ish points of lords, half of which will stand back up. I would say as a cron general any time I can get that large of a disparity of focus I count that as a win.

Remember ever single one of these models is ever-living (right?, don't have Dex yet so please correct me on this, and talking about the court here, not guard or anything else). They are an ideal tank, I would love for my opponent to dump all there fire-power into it while my 1500 other points runs about unscathed and dropping max dips on them (heheh just to complete the MMO analogy).

im not using math...im using my avg game xp. usually when my venom shoots MEQ units i get about 2-3 dead marines. sometimes more sometimes less. i said 5 wounds, because dice variable may sometimes give you that extra one or 2 or even more (however the reverse is also true) but i like to be optimistic, and so far my venoms have performed at that level pretty reliably. YMMV

Fetterkey wrote:What happens if a Dark Eldar player shoots your 500 point unit with three or four Venoms? (answer: you die) Generally speaking, undifferentiated 1W T5 3+ save models aren't exactly the most resilient things in the game. True deathstar units tend to be hard to kill, and this-- well, isn't, though Resurrection Protocols make it somewhat more annoying to take out than one might first expect. Honestly, paying >100 points for one wound T5 3+ save models isn't a very realistic idea.

Again 3 or 4 Venoms will not kill this unit, at least not statistically speaking. Your 100 points for T5 3+ 1W models is a good point, if we ignore that those models have RP on a 4+, effectively these are on average 1.5 wound models, and with a bit of luck they could be 2 or 3 wounds models.


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DarthSpader wrote:im not using math...im using my avg game xp. usually when my venom shoots MEQ units i get about 2-3 dead marines. sometimes more sometimes less. i said 5 wounds, because dice variable may sometimes give you that extra one or 2 or even more (however the reverse is also true) but i like to be optimistic, and so far my venoms have performed at that level pretty reliably. YMMV

Heheh ok, I guess. I've also had games where I dropped 75 shots into Korn berserkers and they never failed a save (sad day in third edition for my necrons many years ago). So based off that anecdote this dethstar should never ever die, because they either get a 2+/4r+ (.083 % failure) or at worse a 3++/4r+ (.16% chance of failure) against every wound in the game, so they'll never die!

Of course I'm being ridiculous, but if anything I think the Venom argument has underlined just how resilient this unit is. No other force out there can amass that much fire power that ignores T5, so if they do that well against Splinter Cannons, how well are they going to do against Bolters?

drakkenj wrote:Necron Lord w/ Warscythe, Mindshackle Scarabs, Phase Shifter, Res Orb - 60

This is a good model. Cheap & Cheerful.

Its durability comes from its ability to hide inside a squad of troops, much like a squad wargear upgrade. You get 5 warriors, the above lord, x 4 - 500pts. Much the same mind scarab ability. Harder to shoot down. Easier to kill in close combat.

Here is another option, about 3/5 the points;

Destroyer Lord, Mindshackle Scarabs

4 Wraiths, two whips, caster, beamer. Nearly all differently equipped but the whips are too valuable not to include. Still some wound allocation fun. Deadly in assaults. Cheaper, faster, more durable than the OP. Probably the best deathstar in the dex.

Razerous wrote:

drakkenj wrote:Necron Lord w/ Warscythe, Mindshackle Scarabs, Phase Shifter, Res Orb - 60

This is a good model. Cheap & Cheerful.

Its durability comes from its ability to hide inside a squad of troops, much like a squad wargear upgrade. You get 5 warriors, the above lord, x 4 - 500pts. Much the same mind scarab ability. Harder to shoot down. Easier to kill in close combat.

Here is another option, about 3/5 the points;

Destroyer Lord, Mindshackle Scarabs

4 Wraiths, two whips, caster, beamer. Nearly all differently equipped but the whips are too valuable not to include. Still some wound allocation fun. Deadly in assaults. Cheaper, faster, more durable than the OP. Probably the best deathstar in the dex.

Very good points. I'm already pretty committed to a Res Orb touting lord in my 20 strong Warrior base, and I think y'all have me convinced to add the Mindshackle Scarabs. The potentiality seems to good to pass up.

I'm still debating about the 2+ or 3++, not absolutely necessary for a "hidden" lord , in fact the more I think about the more I'm convinced not to get it. Anything I might be tempted to use it on (AP4 or lower, PW) I'm better off throwing a 13pt Warrior in front of whose going to get his RP (boosted by res orb) anyway.

The other debate is what weapon? The Warscythe seems like the obvious choice, but staff of light isn't a horrible option. However as the lord primary role is to provide contingency against assaults, I guess the best option is the one with the most punch, not to mention that it provides some can opening contingency.

I think my second choice would be the fists with the template, which would obviously provide some Horde deterrence.

Why are people even trying to make deathstar units for a shooty army that can't reliably do combat.

Wraiths & Scarabs can do close-combats. Wraiths, i would say, fall under the deathstar category quiet nicely.

Mindshakle scarabs won't stop a necron lord & 20 warriors being swept in close combat by a dedicated assault unit - it just makes the squad more expensive.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Why are people even trying to make deathstar units for a shooty army that can't reliably do combat.

Because they don't by the Internet meme that this army will get rolled in CC? I think most people have been conditioned by the previous Dex that I2=PooPooPushed in (please excuse the pejorative ), but there are many units, TH/SS termies being the obvious one, that function swimmingly with lower I. Heck ALL SM assault armies have lower I then Eldar (both dark and light varieties) assault armies, are we now claiming that Eldar Assault pwns the imperium with impunity?

Many of the units in the Dex are not designed to be dominant in the assault phase (just as TAC marines, Kabalite Warriors, FireWarriors and the like are not dominant in said phase), however if you really Math hammer out Wraiths, FlayedOnes, Lords and the HQ's you'll see that with the right toys these units perform just as would be expected.

In summary, the notion that Necron=Dead in assault is an old one and no longer valid with the current Dex. Its a fact and the math backs it up.


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Razerous wrote:
Mindshakle scarabs won't stop a necron lord & 20 warriors being swept in close combat by a dedicated assault unit - it just makes the squad more expensive.

Dedicated assault units tend to have some pretty powerful individual models. If you can save yourself from just 1 wound and move that wound to there unit, that's a net swing of 2 when resolving the combat. I would much rather roll a 10 or under rather then a 8 or under. Also the Lord w/Scyth+say 15 warriors ( most dedicated assault units aren't going to kill more then 5 models in one round of combat) should inflict enough wounds to keep the combat close to a draw. THen RP happens and with time and enough help you might actually WIN the CC!


I know its shocking, and I can tell many of you never played or have forgotten 3rd edition, but there was a time when crons could win CC by just not dying long enough. I really believe with the current changes this will be happening more often, if they are properly supported.