I have a question about Ghazzy. So today i had my first and longest battle of 1700 points in which i used Ghazzy.
As it stands right now im using Goff culture and thats the color scheme ive gone for.
My question is this: In a competitive, or at least semi competitive list, how is the best way to use Ghaz? what Culture are we talking about?
Because Deathskulls are seemingly better than Goff, yet you get your full money worth of Ghaz if you use him in a Goff group.
So how should you manage that, to benefit the best from a strong rooster in which Ghaz is present? Should you just say EFF' it and use him in a Deathskulls group or should you make a mini patrol group with Ghazzy in it and just throw some boyz in it?
It was my first 9th edition battle btw. and i won! against the hordes of Mortarion, and the Deathguard. Ghazzy krumped Mortarion with the help of his trusty Mega nobz. Im so happy for that victory.
Congrats on the win!
I would say that the reason why Ghazzy sees play atm is partly because he synergizes very well with a Goff Horde Skarboyz list. S5 with his buffs to attacks and reroll one's means that it gives them enough oomph in CC to seriously do enough damage when combined with the Goff Klan trait. The horde style list is also more about area denial for primaries and limiting secondaries for your opponent. Ghazzy fills in that gap of handling dangerous multi-wound models that even Skarboyz can struggle with. So that's why he's basically relegated to Goff lists for now, since other klans really don't get as much out of him since they miss out on the rerolls.
Thanks! so even if its Ghaz he would not benefit from being part of a Deathskulls army? Or having a small Skarboyz patrol with Ghaz but majority of the army is Deathskulls in another detatchment?
Fair enough. I was just thinking since deathskulls are pretty much surperior, but i guess not so superior that you shouldnt still run Ghaz army as majority Goffs.
Personally in my battle, I did not get a lot out of the Goff clan trait in my own battle. very few exploding sixes in melee.
Would it in return make sense to run a large potion as your army as Goff, but maybe keep a small patrol as deathskulls for some ranged support units?
I forgot to mention that we're talking in a 2000 points army here.
Bclion wrote: Has anyone given thought to using a chinork to flying Eadbutt? It’s a cheaper option to burna bomber and and has same special keywords on the bottom of profile. Unless I’m missing something use the scouting ahead and for 90 points it does D6 mortals on explosion for six inch radius.
I actually used flying headbutt on my Chinork not in this battle, but my previous one. It did very good damage. I feel like its 16 regular movement speed and 8 advance since you dont have to make a roll gives it a far enough movement for using the headbutt effectively. But i cant say if its competitive. I basically paid 90 points for one time flying D6 bomb. i think it was worth it but im a little unsure.
Bloodaxe gargantuan squiggoths - charges every turn! And with the howdah rule and the way bloodaxe works, you can fall back, shoot out of the howdah, then charge the squiggoth back in for more mortal wounds. I like this list, one day I'll own some gargantuan squiggoths...
some bloke wrote: Bloodaxe gargantuan squiggoths - charges every turn! And with the howdah rule and the way bloodaxe works, you can fall back, shoot out of the howdah, then charge the squiggoth back in for more mortal wounds. I like this list, one day I'll own some gargantuan squiggoths...
That is really awesome. This list is so plain like a brick hitting the head. Want to hold midfield? Take the toughtes unit. In max number legal. Some shooting backup? The take the most shoota unit in max number. Fill the rest with the kommandos to do secondaries.
And do it kunni' way...
Makes my day...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aagh damn, I spent last 2 hours looking how to kitbash robo-garg-squigg! I need to do my job, not looking such craziness
I believe that list was actually 2-0 at the end of the first day BUT he got disqualified for proxying Mek Guns he had left at home.
But that list was actually performing alright. I doubt it would have been a top contender, though.
Blood axe is interesting, as they might actually survive a round of combat to fallback and charge again. You could also achieve this with Evil Suns but it's not like the movement would have done anything anyway.
Beardragon - I've bought some bits to kitbash 3 chinorks because of the same fail.....
Bonebreaker dies in flames. At least one per turn. You will have almost no chance to fall back. Garg has 35 wounds, it' s a harder nut...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tulun wrote: I believe that list was actually 2-0 at the end of the first day BUT he got disqualified for proxying Mek Guns he had left at home.
But that list was actually performing alright. I doubt it would have been a top contender, though.
Blood axe is interesting, as they might actually survive a round of combat to fallback and charge again. You could also achieve this with Evil Suns but it's not like the movement would have done anything anyway.
That is a story fitting the spirit of the list very well)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus the list is wrong. The second detachement can' t be patrol - too many heavy support. He needs to have spearhead => less CP.
Tomsug wrote: Beardragon - I've bought some bits to kitbash 3 chinorks because of the same fail.....
Bonebreaker dies in flames. At least one per turn. You will have almost no chance to fall back. Garg has 35 wounds, it' s a harder nut...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tulun wrote: I believe that list was actually 2-0 at the end of the first day BUT he got disqualified for proxying Mek Guns he had left at home.
But that list was actually performing alright. I doubt it would have been a top contender, though.
Blood axe is interesting, as they might actually survive a round of combat to fallback and charge again. You could also achieve this with Evil Suns but it's not like the movement would have done anything anyway.
That is a story fitting the spirit of the list very well)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus the list is wrong. The second detachement can' t be patrol - too many heavy support. He needs to have spearhead => less CP.
rofl that sucks.
But hey the Chinork still seems rather cheap for a gunship, i mean the rattler cannons are free. So its a 90 point floating 4D6 shooting platform with Strength 5 and -1 ap. and you can still put shoota boyz or tankbusters in them for added dakka.
You could also try this, though ive never tried it but it seems like a pretty Orky way of getting to the frontline:
Put like 10 Nobz or 5 Meganobz in the Chinork and just fly it almost up to the enemys face. Then the chinork dies and your melee units will naturally fall down near your enemy, thus saving them the hassle of walking or being driven. I guess it comes with the added hazard of them dying as they fall out of the chinork, and them being focus fired maybe.
But ill totally try it some day. just 2 Chinorks flying over the enemy deployment zone just waiting for my chinork to die so all my elite orks falls out of the chinork in the greatest and most orkiest way to get to the frontlines.
Maybe put a Mega armored Kustom forcefield guy inside as well for protection.
I' d ruther put some cheap infantry there. Chinorks are soft and die super fast. Put MANz there and you have the priority target exploding in your deploy T1.
Put some boyz /kommandos inside and annoy opponent in his half and explode between of his units.
SemperMortis wrote: Garg squig and Bonebreaker spam with Blood axe sounds good until you remember the new hotness is going to be Eradicators. :(
Yeah....for BA to work well, you'd need them to have a strat to keep enemies in combat like Black Templars do for like 2CP, that might actually make BA worth considering as a side patrol detachment just to use that.
[quote=Beardedragon
But hey the Chinork still seems rather cheap for a gunship, i mean the rattler cannons are free. So its a 90 point floating 4D6 shooting platform with Strength 5 and -1 ap. and you can still put shoota boyz or tankbusters in them for added dakka.
You could also try this, though ive never tried it but it seems like a pretty Orky way of getting to the frontline:
Put like 10 Nobz or 5 Meganobz in the Chinork and just fly it almost up to the enemys face. Then the chinork dies and your melee units will naturally fall down near your enemy, thus saving them the hassle of walking or being driven. I guess it comes with the added hazard of them dying as they fall out of the chinork, and them being focus fired maybe.
But ill totally try it some day. just 2 Chinorks flying over the enemy deployment zone just waiting for my chinork to die so all my elite orks falls out of the chinork in the greatest and most orkiest way to get to the frontlines.
Maybe put a Mega armored Kustom forcefield guy inside as well for protection.
tulun wrote: God. Just watching a bat rep with new necrons.
Good god that army might hard counter us.
Was it a silver tide list? I feel like the Obsec trait combined with that will really give us trouble contesting the middle.
No, but he did make something like 34/37 res rolls on the warriors he had.
Didn’t lose a single unit from the various res abilities.
It’ll be interesting to see that stats.
That was due to some good dice rolling. Average would have been way less. Shock attack gun isn't awesome just because you manage to roll 30 damage once
Most of the time they will be going up(warriors) 7/18 rate with once per game come more if they spend 30 pts and 1cp
tulun wrote: God. Just watching a bat rep with new necrons.
Good god that army might hard counter us.
Was it a silver tide list? I feel like the Obsec trait combined with that will really give us trouble contesting the middle.
No, but he did make something like 34/37 res rolls on the warriors he had.
Didn’t lose a single unit from the various res abilities.
It’ll be interesting to see that stats.
Good Gork, sounds like he had hot dice. I wish I could make those kind of saves with my KFF!
To be fair he had animator(overpriced and can be bypassed by killing it first(only protection is being out of los though needs los for warriors) or shooting anothbr squad(you know which unit he buffs). Thus he was rolling 4+ rr1. He also used once per game reiic to bring back more in hero phase
Moriarty - or you go second (50%) and 2 chinorks die T1 in your deploy, MANz fall down in your deploy and are stucked. Chinork has FLY keyword, so it' s almost impossible to hide them.
Make them not-priority target and let them gain Engage, transport small annoying units around the table and shoot from ratlers. That could work better.
i legit have no idea how Core will even affect us. Our army has very few auras and theyre already pieced out to only affect part of the army anyway.
Regular boss: Infantry/bikes only (common with core rule)
Wartrike: Bikes and Vehicles (can't be affect by core w/o flatout breaking the rule)
Boss not getting his own aura? That makes no sense with how Waaaagh! is supposed to work, its not a leadership thing its a legit energy force theyre all benefiting from.
Badrukk is specifically Flashgitz, core cant affect this
Zagstrukk is specifically stormboyz, core cannot affect this w/o a total rework (which he kinda needs, and stormboyz would probably be core anyway)
Our spells are offensive or specific target on our own stuff (infantry, character, vehicle. I cant think of one that affects all 3 thats actualy used)
Ghaz and Bannernob are the only two auras that would make any sense whatsoever to become Core only. But Ghaz's reroll is goff locked, which would be BS to also make it core locked, and Bannernob is hardly in need of a nerf to only work on core.
Unless they give us a bunch of new stuff that needs to be restricted i dont see how the Core rule affects us at all w/o completely breaking our army. And given how they have reacted to the last 2 times our players have completely exploded at GW for something that broke our army, they'd hear and fix it pretty quick.
Necrons didn't have that many auras either. But core affects other than aura as well. Any targeted ability. Painboy heal? Core easily. Stratagems? Plenty room for core. Basically any ability that extends beoynd wielder can and likely do go core unless it's more specific(wartrike boss for example affecting vehicles will likely not affect core as it's already restricted. Like destroyer lords affec's destroyers including himseif). Fight/shoot twice, boarding action, tellyporta, grot shields, loot it...just some stratagems i could easily see being restrlcted to core
Better question is what are core. If orks get marine level lucky it's basically all ork infantry(but not gretchin) and walker vehicles but not bonebreakas, buggies etc.
If necrons are more like necrons much more restricted. Question is is marine the usual level or are necrons unusually hardly punished(pretty much every melee unit btw isn't core. 1 exception. This is big hit to necrons). Next year second xenos will be interesting to see how that works
tneva82 wrote: Necrons didn't have that many auras either. But core affects other than aura as well. Any targeted ability. Painboy heal? Core easily. Stratagems? Plenty room for core. Basically any ability that extends beoynd wielder can and likely do go core unless it's more specific(wartrike boss for example affecting vehicles will likely not affect core as it's already restricted. Like destroyer lords affec's destroyers including himseif). Fight/shoot twice, boarding action, tellyporta, grot shields, loot it...just some stratagems i could easily see being restrlcted to core
Better question is what are core. If orks get marine level lucky it's basically all ork infantry(but not gretchin) and walker vehicles but not bonebreakas, buggies etc.
If necrons are more like necrons much more restricted. Question is is marine the usual level or are necrons unusually hardly punished(pretty much every melee unit btw isn't core. 1 exception. This is big hit to necrons). Next year second xenos will be interesting to see how that works
Unfortunately, it seems GW is usually much more reserved to rules splurges when it comes to xenos, so I wouldn't be surprised if GW limited the extent to what counts as CORE in our lists.
Yup. I could see stuff like tank busta/loota not be core for example(
But maybe it's not that bad and necrons are just going to be one of the most affected by thing(for example there's warlord trait that gives reroll charges. Sounds nice. Except there's exactly one core unit that you would really want to charge. Immortals and warriois aren't exactly units necrons are charging into melee unless it's seriously desperate situation...)
tneva82 wrote: Stratagems? Fight twice could easily be core for example
I expect shoot twice and fight twice to go away unless they work for one datasheet only.
Honestly, this is healthy for the game.
Fight / shoot twice was always a bit absurd and obvious. Double your efficiency for X CP.
Yeah, it's one of the things I'm glad they changed about Aggressors. But then it's GW so consistency goes out the window when guys like Eradicators do it twice for free.
With marines moving in custodes territory with all their new gravis toys, I'm not too sure that their nerfs will have too much of an impact on their match-up with us.
tneva82 wrote: Tabletop titans are calling marine codex more of sidestep. What's hot changed but overall level still same. Dunno how reliable those guys are
Brian was like 8th in ITC last year.
Adrian is a high ranked but not nearly as much as Brian.
I would take their opinions seriously, but not literally. This game has a lot of subjectivity.
yeah i dont feel like marines got nerfed at all.
Yet anyway. I expect a lot of crap to lose Core because seriously way too much in that codex has it. Its supposed to be a limited tag, yet pretty much everything except the vehicles have it.
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah i dont feel like marines got nerfed at all.
Yet anyway. I expect a lot of crap to lose Core because seriously way too much in that codex has it. Its supposed to be a limited tag, yet pretty much everything except the vehicles have it.
The SM codex is probably *better* than the SM 2.0 codex in overall quality.
The difference is that the game has changed so much that it's less of a problematic codex, if that makes sense.
tneva82 wrote: Stratagems? Fight twice could easily be core for example
I expect shoot twice and fight twice to go away unless they work for one datasheet only.
I mean, the only unit I would think to use it on would be Lootas, but I don't know how to use them right now competitively. They are either being guarded by an over priced mob of grotz or they are dying turn 1 to a stiff breeze. Maybe if they incorporated Shot twice either literally or by increasing ROF for lootas we could justify taking them in a list. I'm still not sure why Lootas don't have a 4+ save since their whole shtick is them stealing crap and making guns and armor out of it.
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah i dont feel like marines got nerfed at all.
Yet anyway. I expect a lot of crap to lose Core because seriously way too much in that codex has it. Its supposed to be a limited tag, yet pretty much everything except the vehicles have it.
The SM codex is probably *better* than the SM 2.0 codex in overall quality.
The difference is that the game has changed so much that it's less of a problematic codex, if that makes sense.
Yeah, I think at most this was a side step for Marines, but this is actually good for Orkz in a way. I think now that Buggy lists are dead, just to much firepower from devestators, eradicators and a host of other things to justify their presence/cost, but on the flipside, while aggresors are still VERY good at slaying boyz like its going out of style, they did lose about 50% of their dmg to our big mobs so we can theoretically over power them now with sheer numbers.
Yeah, I think at most this was a side step for Marines, but this is actually good for Orkz in a way. I think now that Buggy lists are dead, just to much firepower from devestators, eradicators and a host of other things to justify their presence/cost, but on the flipside, while aggresors are still VERY good at slaying boyz like its going out of style, they did lose about 50% of their dmg to our big mobs so we can theoretically over power them now with sheer numbers.
I actually think the buggy list is better now than before, at least against marines.
Marines didn't really get much of a shooting buff. Even eradiactors don't really matter.. they were already killing a buggy a turn.
The horde style list on the other hand might get hammered by Necron lists like silver tide. Warriors are T4, 4+ save -- prime targets for bolter fire. More bolter fire = way more dead boys.
Remember 3 eradicators cost slightly more than a buggy, and they cant splitfire or they lose half their shots. They either mega overkill a buggy, or risk not killing it by splitfiring. Plus, Scrapjets are common and they instaspork gravis armor. And they have the speed where they will get the first shot.
Unless theyre within 12 (why on earth would you let a buggy get that close) 2 melta shots can very easily whiff and not kill the buggy. If theyre in melta range then its still possible but much less likely as you need a 1 and 2 or worse for the marine player for buggies to live (2+2 for scrapjets as it has 9 wounds).
Orks have a lot of anti gravis potential. Im more scared of gravis as admech than i am as orks.
Remember 3 eradicators cost slightly more than a buggy, and they cant splitfire or they lose half their shots. They either mega overkill a buggy, or risk not killing it by splitfiring.
Plus, Scrapjets are common and they instaspork gravis armor. And they have the speed where they will get the first shot.
Unless theyre within 12 (why on earth would you let a buggy get that close) 2 melta shots can very easily whiff and not kill the buggy. If theyre in melta range then its still possible but much less likely as you need a 1 and 2 or worse for the marine player for buggies to live (2+2 for scrapjets as it has 9 wounds).
Orks have a lot of anti gravis potential. Im more scared of gravis as admech than i am as orks.
3 doubleshooting is actually what you want to kill 9 wound buggy so no overkill. Within 12" less needed and you really think you can keep buggies 18" from every side edge? On 44"x60" board? He's getting huge board control that way plus 6 shots is about what he needs to kill within 30".
No split fire is issue more with 6 strong squads but until marine has 3x3 no real reason to go for bigger squads.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw did you watch tabletop titans battle report yesterday? Painfull to watch. Marines had 500 pts unit that basically killed handful orks and still near 100 pts score.
Ugh. Was ork list particularly inefficient or what went so badly? Marines for sure wasn't optimized.
Ugh. Was ork list particularly inefficient or what went so badly? Marines for sure wasn't optimized.
Adrian had no hammers in his list other than Ghaz. I think he intentionally gimped himself a bit because they thought the Orks were advantaged, and the UM literally tabled him without breaking a sweat *despite* being a bad list. Brian could have probably dropped 500+ points in his army and still tabled Adrian.
The Goffs need those Mega Nobs / Mek Guns to provide more of a threat. Hell even a cheap 83 points warboss for your Killa Klaw. Yeah, it dies, but it can easily run in and smash a unit up.
Remember 3 eradicators cost slightly more than a buggy, and they cant splitfire or they lose half their shots. They either mega overkill a buggy, or risk not killing it by splitfiring.
Plus, Scrapjets are common and they instaspork gravis armor. And they have the speed where they will get the first shot.
Unless theyre within 12 (why on earth would you let a buggy get that close) 2 melta shots can very easily whiff and not kill the buggy. If theyre in melta range then its still possible but much less likely as you need a 1 and 2 or worse for the marine player for buggies to live (2+2 for scrapjets as it has 9 wounds).
Orks have a lot of anti gravis potential. Im more scared of gravis as admech than i am as orks.
3 no upgrades Eradicators do 6 shots, 4 hits 2.66 wounds for 9.33 dmg on average, not safely killing 1 buggy let alone over killing it, I would probably upgrade them all to heavies to give them +4-6 dmg and guarantee the kill for 15pts. So a 135pt SM unit is killing a 90-110pt buggy a turn, that is a solid return...thats an OP return in actuality. And Eradicators can combat squad, so they can take 3 squads of 6 and divide them into 6 squads of 3. So they never need to split fire and never really want to.
As far as my lovely scrapjets, they average 5 Rokkitz a turn and 12 big shoota shots. 1 rokkit is hitting on 6s (infantry) and 6 BS shots are hitting on 4s. So the Rokkit Kannon gets 4.66 shots, 1.55 hits and about 1 wound at -2 AP so it has a 2/3rd chance to kill 1 Gravis model a turn. The Wing missile has a 0.22 chance to hit (including possible DDD) .14 chance to wound and about 0.1 chance to kill 1 gravis model. The Big shootas work out to 7 shots each (DDD) for 2.33 and 3.5 hits. that works out to 2.91 wounds for 0.97 damage a turn against Gravis. So on any given turn you have a 0.33 chance to kill 1 Gravis model with the RK, a 0.1 chance to kill another with the wing missile and your 12 BS shots work out to just shy of 1 dmg a turn to gravis. To guarantee 1 dead Gravis a turn (40-60ish points) you need 2 Scrapjets. so 220pts guarantees 1 40 to 60pt model, not a bad return, but those scrapjets will get destroyed a lot quicker by eradicators than the other way around. The only way I see Buggy lists surviving in a tournament against a SM player bringing 9-12 Eradicators is by bringing at least 1 full battery of Smasha gunz, preferably 2 and lighting up his anti-tank options as fast as possible.
Smasha gunz are actually REALLY good at killing Gravis models. 2.3 shots a turn, 1.15 hits a turn and almost always 1 wound a turn at -4 D6dmg usually means 1 dead gravis a turn.
I'm going to probably have to look into bringing 2 batteries of mek gunz next time I play. Only tactical downside to that is that you are then losing about 1/4th of your army to backfield support weapons that can barely move and are easy to kill.
***Side note: I just noticed the Rokkit Kannon got the blast key word, and the KMK didn't. I don't know if they fixed the blast rule yet as far as weapons with 2D3 or 2D6 etc rules, but if they did, against 6+ model units the Rokkit Kannon now gets 6 shots if they didn't it gets a minimum of 3.
- Kaptin Badrukk is discovery of the week! I was looking for cheap HQ for my grot mob detachement and this guy is really cool. Can ride in transport with other clans, disemabark and stand where you need them for VP and makes a holes in leman russes and smash the GEQ in CC in fight for objective. No deadthstar, no must take, but a solid workhorse in our almost empty pool of HQs.
- I have really mix feeling from SMGs. They move more but not enought. They shoot long, but can 't concentrate the fire, have to shoot on nonsence target like 6 GEQ, because no other target... like was predicted here by Jidmah and others - dense terrain criples them. On other hand, they screen whole deploy very well. Enemy Scramblers had no chance and Battlefield supremacy secondaries suffered. Next time I switch my 6 SMG for 2-3 KBBs a try to dominate backfield with KBBs.
Btw. KMK have to be even worse then SMG. Also imobile but lack the range.
- mixed feeling from Eadbutting Burna Bommer. On tournament few weeks ago and today again - it' s cool to Eadbutt down T1 in enemy deploy. But:
— everybody already knows it. So if you go second, they shoot him down in your deploy. Exlode on 4+, good luck....
— it' s cool, you do 12-18 damage, but you kill nothing. Just scratch the paint. No enemy gunz down. No real impact on the game in T1. Well, exept the fact, you burned down 155p that could had eaten half of enemy anti tank fire...
— since 9th, opponents do not have a hordes of characters. They have 2-4. So it ' s hard to make 30 MW damage per one Eadbutt. This epoche between the start of Saga of the Beast and start of 9th os over. I switch the bommer to the second wazboom next time.
— not a single jump with any of my SJD.... not necessary....
- with 2 SJD, 3 kommandos, 2 planes and trukk + boyz and BW + boyz, Engage all fronts and Deploy Scramblers was super succesfull.
- Deploy Scramblers is a stupid name and setting for ork secondary. I redesigned it to Deploy Spores and make some 25mm base fungus markers to remeber, what was already deployed
- Scrapjets are so good! Great combination of weapons and CC. And again, almost no use of corkscrew but lack of speed. Squig tyres for the next time!
- I like 9th. Like a switch from cheap potato rum to fine caribian bottle. Much more complex game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: - btw - did you know, that Ramming speed is valid for whole charge phase, so you can charge 3D6 + mortal wounds twice with Unstop. Momentum?
Love the list and reasoning Tomsug. A couple of questions: what planes are you using? Do you go for a T1 charge with your transports and boyz or are they a response choice? And finally have you considered Linebreaker in lieu of Engage? I´m theorizing that SJDs and Kommandos are easy enablers for Linebreakers if you also go for a T1 charge into the enemys deploy strategy and make some space.
Yeah, BW has a deffrolla and charge T1. Sometimes. But not to enemy deploy. I charge if I go second and he has units in the midfield. I don ' t even use the wartrike. I don' t hurry too much to enemy deploy. I hurry to make a position in the midfield. I keep my scrapjets in the back and shoot. They are pretty good at it.
All units except BW are soft like a hell. If the enemy fires on them, they die super fast. I keep my scrapjets back, hide them behind the buildings and keep them in position, where they see a few targets they want to kill and most of the enemy army do not see them. SJD the same. Deploy them always on the back edge of my deploy. Be ready to go second.
Linebreaker - can' t be done by plane plus makes me to go a lot to enemy deploy. But I can' t be there. He will kill me. I want to hold my deploy and midfield. If I pass it, it could be 15:10 or even 15:5 on primaries per turn. It is not important to keep as much objectives As possible all the game. Keep 2 or three is fine. The key is DENY your opponent scoring primaries. Because you can pass the max point in just 3 turns. So I spent first 2 turn by eliminating his anti tank fire, feeding his gunz with fake targets - defenceless but hard to kill transports, planes with -1 hit and 5++ threaten him with Eadbutt... this keeps my scrapjets and SJD alive. And conquering the midfield. I put ma transports there and take objectives. It makes him to kill them. And the BW can block the LOS very well
And you can pass Engage from the midfield also = synergy.
Off course I drop some kommandos to enemy deploy to do scramblers and make a mess. But you can' t hold them too long. Linebreaker is for 2 Nauts charging over the field or something like this.
Thanks for the response. I´m at the same plan except even more offensive with the Trike escorting them forward and trying different variants of KFF bubble around them. Forktress, Wazbom or a Big Mek with KFF onboard. My reasoning has been to make them pull back and delay them enter the midfield due to being busy handling the invasion of their deploy. That said I think you have a point in it being greedy gunning for opposing deploy with a glasscannon army. It takes quite some tinkering with screening and consolidating correctly etc.
I agree it´s increasingly clear that denying opponent Primaries is a key strategy (for us at least). Your strategy has fewer cogs in motion which almost always is better. A midboard counter punch may well be a safer bet. Good talk
I have a lil noob question.
In current situation can I use stratagems from both codex and Saga of the beast?
During my last battle (first after many years) TEMPERAMENTAL SHOKK DRIVE and DRIVE-BY KRUMPIN’ gave my opponent real hard time. and I am wondering if that was cool.
tneva82 wrote: Tabletop titans are calling marine codex more of sidestep. What's hot changed but overall level still same. Dunno how reliable those guys are
Theyre both good. I would trust their opinions over people on here at the very least
tneva82 wrote: Tabletop titans are calling marine codex more of sidestep. What's hot changed but overall level still same. Dunno how reliable those guys are
Theyre both good. I would trust their opinions over people on here at the very least
IMO that depends on whether they are talking about their main armies or ones they've picked up along the way. The definitely know their way around marines though.
Yea i can see how the Mega blasta kannon thingie would be.. less beneficial due to the points it takes. I mean for every 2 mega blasta kannon what ever they are called, i could field 3 Smasha Guns.
Still though, it would seem the traktor cannon would be better if the enemy has vehicles with Fly keywords?
No idea. Ive modelled my Mek Gun as a traktor kannon because it looks cool, but ill be using it as a smasha gun.
Beardedragon wrote: Yea i can see how the Mega blasta kannon thingie would be.. less beneficial due to the points it takes. I mean for every 2 mega blasta kannon what ever they are called, i could field 3 Smasha Guns.
Still though, it would seem the traktor cannon would be better if the enemy has vehicles with Fly keywords?
No idea. Ive modelled my Mek Gun as a traktor kannon because it looks cool, but ill be using it as a smasha gun.
Traktor kannons are only really good against models that have built in or easy access to negative to hit mods. With the changes to neg to hit mods that no longer stacking, I'm not sure if they're really worth taking even with the bonus against FLY. Having only one shot makes very hit or miss IMO.
Tomsug wrote: Tips on mek gunz is easy to make replacaceble. Just do not glue it and replace.
There are 3 main reasons to take Mek Gunz:
- cheap body
- long range that negates slow move
- brutal AP -4
Smasha has all of them.
KBK has non of them. Cost more, Range just 36”, boring ap-3.
Traktor is simply not so effective. Mathhammer
KMKs have D6 shots instead of D3 and they're better against T7-8 models though. Damage output is higher than Smasha Gunz, which have the edge only because they're really cheap and their appropriate target is the gravis dude, which is the model people currently tailor their lists against. If mek gunz all cost the same, for example by using PL, KMKs are better than Smashas. Mortal wounds on 1s are the most annoying thing about KMKs, a bit mitigated if there's a Big Mek nearby while range 36''+3''M is absolutely fine with the new boards, and AP-3 is still good.
Traktors' only downside is the AP-2. S8 and no -1 to hit penalty makes it more efficient against some targets than Smashas, especially those ones that have invulns when the AP-4 is nothing better than AP-2 and naturally come with a -1 to hit like drukhari/harlequins vehicles or axe/shield SW dreads. Autohitting is huge, mind that a Smasha gun shouldn't get more than a single hit on average anyway.
wojtekwroc wrote: Hi lads,
I have a lil noob question.
In current situation can I use stratagems from both codex and Saga of the beast?
You absolutely can, as long as the stratagem requirements themselves are met.
The codex is the "base" and SotB is an add-on.
Maybe he got confused by marines losing all the PA stuff for the variant chapters. But for now orks are fine. Once codex comes out likely go out with some remaining in codex but good luck for anybody figuring out when codex will come-.
I was fiddling around with battlescribe and i noticed that Ghazzy couldnt pick a warlord trait. is this just a battlescribe bug or can Ghazzy not have a warlord trait? Where is it written that he cant have one?
I know he cant have a shiny gubbinz but i dont recall reading he couldnt have a trait.. well i guess its because he already have so many buffs or something
Blackie - I play mek gunz a lot and I don' t agree with you in one critical aspect - there is a crucial difference between 48 and 36 range.
1. 48 = deploy in back, move 3” forward and you can fire anywhere, even diagonaly you cover most of the field. With 36? No. No way.
2. A lot of enemy fire is around 36 range. If you are in range, they are in range. With 48 just the battlecannons and similar guns can compete. And you die, because t5 w6 is soft.
3. With new dense terrain, it' s easy to hide behind. If you can fire 48, you can fire in various direction and you find some hole and hit something on the other side of the table. With 36, you can be easily deprived.
4. Smaller table helps 48. Because with old tables, 48 was not enought to fire anywhere. mek gun is 3” long, move 3” = mek gun on the back edge is efectively 54” range on 60” table. Deploy 3” from the back edge and there is nowhere to hide for enemy tanks. SAG used to have such position in 8th with his 60” range. But 60” is not necessary anymore. But with 36”. Either you deploy in front and die because go second, or deploy in back and cannot fire if you go first, because of short range.
Every time I played with KMK, opponent calculate with my 36” range and result was, that my KMK shoot less then SMG.
Now that I am thinking about this...is the Ork warboss "aura" for morale even worth much anymore? Assuming you somehow fail your LD check and there isn't a 30 mob nearby but there is a warboss nearby...whats the benefit? You lost 14 boyz, you than roll off and lose 2-3 more. The Warboss leadership aura allows you to kill D3 more to automatically pass...this seems like a major nerf to his aura at this point.
Not that he himself was nerfed, just the change to morale has made this significantly less important. Instead of losing D6 + whatever models you are losing 1 model and than 1/6th of whats left.
have to remember if the squad is half or less strength the test causes more to flee on a 1-2, not a 1. I've lost quite a bit more than D3 boyz to a failed morale that poked into 15 missing models.
Its definitely not as important as before though i'll give ya that. I havnt had a squad totally flee in 9th, theres always 1-3 left which is generally enough to keep holding that objective or add a random klaw to another assault.
Every time I played with KMK, opponent calculate with my 36” range and result was, that my KMK shoot less then SMG.
And then your opponent will lose everytime since there's no way to lose a game if no armored enemy unit decides to stay 39'' away from your mek gunz.
Not really. Stay away with heavies for 1 turn, next turn kill your KMK, the field is yours for the rest of the game. That is pretty easy kill 6 of them per turn.
Not even mention, you can' t terrorize his hunits on his objectives in his deploy, or close to him, because of lack of range. In most of the scenarios, you can control min. 2 objectives in /or close to your deploy to get to get 10 VP for secondaries. That is kore than enought to win the game.
But don' t hesitate to try it and write there down a report, how did it work. But I haven' t seen KMK in any succesfull list for 2 years at least.
Only issue with Smasha's is you are handing your opponent secondaries in the form of "bring it down" and they will have an easy time maxing this one out.
tulun wrote:I believe that list was actually 2-0 at the end of the first day BUT he got disqualified for proxying Mek Guns he had left at home.
It's better than that; he got disqualified for taking paint points after going 3-0.
He showed up from Florida to wherever, found out he forgot his Mek Gunz, TO allows him to proxy the beer cozies as he's a regular and long time Ork player and wasn't gaming a system.
He immediately bought a bunch of Mek Gunz ($$$, i think like 5?) locally, snagged spare bitz from other Ork players, spent all night building and preparing to have a non-proxied army for Sunday but someone noticed his match-points were too high in one game meaning he took paint points and showed up Sunday to get DQed.
Imagine,... had he not taken paint points, beer cozies would have won a tournament.
SemperMortis wrote: Only issue with Smasha's is you are handing your opponent secondaries in the form of "bring it down" and they will have an easy time maxing this one out.
Well to be honest pretty much every list that isn't the greentide gives automatically 10-15VPs to the opponent for Bring It Down. In my experience fielding 15ish potential VP in terms of vehicles is not a good choice, take much less or much higher. I typically play with vehicles that are worth of 30ish VPs in total.
It's probably a matter of what kind of tables you play on.
In my last games 48" has felt rather worthless on many of my units, as I usually can't see further than 24" because of obscuring terrain. My PBC could shoot everything they could see with their 36" entropy cannons despite sitting in the back and blocking off deep strikers. Anything further away was completely invisible unless it had 18+ wounds.
Jidmah wrote: It's probably a matter of what kind of tables you play on.
In my last games 48" has felt rather worthless on many of my units, as I usually can't see further than 24" because of obscuring terrain. My PBC could shoot everything they could see with their 36" entropy cannons despite sitting in the back and blocking off deep strikers. Anything further away was completely invisible unless it had 18+ wounds.
Agreed, unless you're playing on planet bowling ball, you usually have terrain of some sort that limits functionally what you can see. It used to be that SAG Mek was one of the few models that could really utilize his 60" range since he could be perched on top of a building, but with the changes in 9th and the death of the SAG in general, 36" does seem to be the functional max range of most weapons. With how central objectives are now as well, it's highly unlikely that you won't have some sort of targets by T2 at least unless your opponent wants to give up on the primaries.
SemperMortis wrote: Only issue with Smasha's is you are handing your opponent secondaries in the form of "bring it down" and they will have an easy time maxing this one out.
Well to be honest pretty much every list that isn't the greentide gives automatically 10-15VPs to the opponent for Bring It Down. In my experience fielding 15ish potential VP in terms of vehicles is not a good choice, take much less or much higher. I typically play with vehicles that are worth of 30ish VPs in total.
Yeah you more or less go all in.
Deff Koptas are amazing utility picks, but never when you're in that middle ground -- either they are you're only bring it down or you've fielding 10+ vehicles anyway so it doesn't matter.
Being 15 points down though sucks a monkey butt. In general, the mech force also isn't granted great secondaries in a lot of matchups, as it isn't great at action based ones, and sometimes the enemy doesn't give up a good kill secondary.
It doesn't have to be planet bowling ball - if you play at a GW store lots of their terrain is the new industrial stuff which doesn't block LoS but basically gives -1 to hit to everything. Playing on those tables feels like a completely different game.
have posted a Goff army that won some sort of tournement and they use a warboss and ghaz in the same batallion, yet the warboss is the.. well warlord and not Ghaz.
I can only really see benefits from doing this i mean, Ghaz cant have a warlord trait can he? because of all his buffs.
So if you pick someone else to be warlord they still have a warlord trait.
Am i missing something or is there nothing to lose by not making ghaz warlord? Do Ghaz lose a buff by making another Goff character the warlord? seems to me, making someone else warlord who then gets warlord traits seems a lot better.
He gets the goff warlord trait when he is the warlord just like every other named character gets the trait of their clan.
The thing is, the goff warlord trait just amounts to adding another attack to Thrakka because AP-4 and AP-5 are functional identical in almost all cases, so using it to make a second character more powerful is not a bad idea.
I also suggest giving both the core rules and your codex another good read. Much of your confusion seems to be stemming from not knowing the rules well. If you have any questions regarding those, we can help with that of course.
No there is no rule saying he has to be the warlord. They most likely didnt do that because of the joke Makari is actually the boss.
He still gets the Goff warlord trait. Named characters always get their kulture's warlord trait, you can opt to not make them the warlord but you have no choice on their traits.
SemperMortis wrote: Only issue with Smasha's is you are handing your opponent secondaries in the form of "bring it down" and they will have an easy time maxing this one out.
Well to be honest pretty much every list that isn't the greentide gives automatically 10-15VPs to the opponent for Bring It Down. In my experience fielding 15ish potential VP in terms of vehicles is not a good choice, take much less or much higher. I typically play with vehicles that are worth of 30ish VPs in total.
Yeah you more or less go all in.
Deff Koptas are amazing utility picks, but never when you're in that middle ground -- either they are you're only bring it down or you've fielding 10+ vehicles anyway so it doesn't matter.
Being 15 points down though sucks a monkey butt. In general, the mech force also isn't granted great secondaries in a lot of matchups, as it isn't great at action based ones, and sometimes the enemy doesn't give up a good kill secondary.
In my experience, the buggy list's biggest strength is being able to deny primaries. If you can keep your opponent out of the middle during turns two and three while destroying their mobility they usually struggle to get back into the game - which also means that they can't optimize their shooting but have to spend resources on scoring VP.
Don't try this against murder clowns or slanesh daemons though. In both cases, the only chance of winning I see is "slay them all, leave none alive".
Wow. Its been a while since i read the rules and i had no idea named characters could only pick their own faction trait. But again i only had ghaz as a named guy and i have only had one battle with him total.In said battle did i end up picking: Proper Killy" anyway so it all turned out fine.
So named guys must pick their own clan trait. Interesting
A small note that i saw when going through the list on page one: Zagstrukk is listed as being a warboss on a warbike, but he doesnt have a warbike. im guessing its a mistake?
Beardedragon wrote: A small note that i saw when going through the list on page one: Zagstrukk is listed as being a warboss on a warbike, but he doesnt have a warbike. im guessing its a mistake?
Hes a Goff stormboyz character.
No, not a mistake. He plays very much the same as a warboss on warbike because of his movement speed and his vulcha klaws.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ulven88 wrote: Hey guys im a new warboss
In the next day i Will fight a ultramarine
Donyou have any tips for ATV and eradicators?
He has a lot of bikers too.
Btw what do you think about out buggy s?
Especially scrapajet and dragsta, and how you use them?
THX a lot
Well, you shoot rokkits at gravis and dragstas should focus vehicles over marines. Eradicators are nasty when shooting, but can't really fight well in combat, so driving any vehicle straight into them is a valid option. Keep in mind that ultramarines can fall back and shoot with a penalty though.
Against marines, you should always focus on scoring VP over killing stuff. There just is no efficient way to take out double wound marines besides melee right now.
Beardedragon wrote: A small note that i saw when going through the list on page one: Zagstrukk is listed as being a warboss on a warbike, but he doesnt have a warbike. im guessing its a mistake?
Hes a Goff stormboyz character.
He doesn't mean it literally, he means functionally that's what Zagstruk is.
@Ulven88
Like Jidmah said, you basically want to take the initiative and set control of the board so you can deny him primaries and minimize what secondaries you can give up. Ideally, if you can box him up somewhat in his deployment zone, this will limit his ability to score early game and force him into a game of catch-up where you can set the tempo.
Agreed. The ork lineup of named characters is a bit bland and one dimensional. You have Ghaz who is a good beatstick and good buffer, zagstruk who is a mild beatstick and mild buffer, grotsnik who is an okay beatstick and an okay buffer.
Baddrukk and Snikrot are fairly unique, but rely on their style and background to stand out rather than their rules.
Having Nazdreg, orkamedies, Wazdakka, Zogwort or even new characters would be wonderfully welcome. Some of the clans are under represented, or not at all. Which also leads to limiting list creation from a fluff or gameplay standpoint.
Hell even some vehicle characters would be cool. Orkamedies could be in his own kustom Morkanaught for instance. Give it a wicked melee weapon that's a massive wrench or an array of mek tools.
A flying ace, one of the characters from DeffSkwadron would also be truly unique, make him stand out among the horde of characters in 40K. Zoggin' Killboy would be an incredible model to have, let him nick another friendly flyer if he dies as he grappling hooks from the falling plane and tosses out the new planes former owner. Would work wonderfully in tandem with Flying Eadbutt.
the annoying thing is theres tons of them that are mentioned in the lore a lot.
I hope when they get to our codex its just that new boy model we know about and like 5-8 characters. We need named characters and a proper generic boss kit.
Well, some are assuming it's a new boy. Even though all the other models shown at the same time were characters. Lieutenant level kinda models.
But yeah, a Character splash release would certainly be interesting. Usually it's one character with a bunch various of units. But orks have been known to buck the trend frequently. Like Orktober giving 5 new unique vehicle models all at once. XP
Difference is all those models shown minus the boy were "fancy" looking. Special looking equipment, adorned extra gubbinz, then the boy...looks like a cleaner sculpt boy with generic boy stuff.
Its a boy. Whether its proper boyz replacement sculpt or we're getting the "primaris" treatment of getting a Boy+ unit (strong as a nob, not as tough?).
Kinda hope its not the latter. The latter would probably mean we wouldnt get a proper named character splash, as all we'd get is the new "primaris" hqs. Which, hqs are hqs, but would still be annoying.
We need a named psyker (probably snakebite)
Named warboss (probably badmoon)
I wouldn’t mind seeing the grukk face rippa rules made match play legal he is a decent datasheet.
A named burnaboy or tankbusta would be cool.... and full of character...
A named deffdread would be pretty awesome too especially if it was like a plastic Meka dead version. < - I can see this being likely with GW push toward big expensive models
We need a named psyker (probably snakebite)
Named warboss (probably badmoon)
I wouldn’t mind seeing the grukk face rippa rules made match play legal he is a decent datasheet.
A named burnaboy or tankbusta would be cool.... and full of character...
A named deffdread would be pretty awesome too especially if it was like a plastic Meka dead version. < - I can see this being likely with GW push toward big expensive models
The Arch asonist would be wonderful, maybe a Mega armored warboss with a pair of skorchas, give a buff to flame based weapons. Would be interesting to build around.
Especially if they made burnaboyz a bit better
Only named psyker im aware of is Zogwort, whom we USED to have as a unit but "no model no rules" killed him along with Wazdakka (evilsunz)
Normally i'd say i really wish Zogwort would come back but unless they make Snakebites viable...he wouldnt be used lol. Ever.
He used to have a special ability that basically polymorphed characters. It was almost impossible to go off but MAN was it satisfying when it worked lol
I would love to see Nazdreg as our BM character, he's part of the reason why tellyporta technology got perfected in his partnership with Ghazzy. It would be another mega armour boss which could be a dual kit to make regular Mega Armoured Warbosses again!
Old Zogwort would be an ideal Snakebite leader, though he could also arguably be a Freeboota since he's more of a mercenary for hire at this point than strictly a Snakebite.
Grimskul wrote: I would love to see Nazdreg as our BM character, he's part of the reason why tellyporta technology got perfected in his partnership with Ghazzy. It would be another mega armour boss which could be a dual kit to make regular Mega Armoured Warbosses again!
Old Zogwort would be an ideal Snakebite leader, though he could also arguably be a Freeboota since he's more of a mercenary for hire at this point than strictly a Snakebite.
It's dead easy to write rules for him too. Boss in mega armour, check. Snazzy Kustom Mega weapon, check. 1 free use of the Tellyporta strat, check. Done and dusted.
Grimskul wrote: I would love to see Nazdreg as our BM character, he's part of the reason why tellyporta technology got perfected in his partnership with Ghazzy. It would be another mega armour boss which could be a dual kit to make regular Mega Armoured Warbosses again!
Old Zogwort would be an ideal Snakebite leader, though he could also arguably be a Freeboota since he's more of a mercenary for hire at this point than strictly a Snakebite.
It's dead easy to write rules for him too. Boss in mega armour, check. Snazzy Kustom Mega weapon, check. 1 free use of the Tellyporta strat, check. Done and dusted.
It was heavily implied that the plastic Mega Armour Big Mek with the KMB and Tellyporta blasta loadout was a homage to him when it was first released too. The codex picture of him in 7th even called him Nazdrek or some other similar name.
It's always bizarre for me when they keep pumping new marine characters in a codex that is already extremely crowded with datasheets while armies like DE and Orks kinda just watch and see options taken away for them.
I suppose it's because GW knows that the investment of making the marine character is likely to be made back. Though I'd also argue that orks tend to be fanatical converters. Any model that's useful for that will be bought at least once, possibly multiple times. I know I have 3 copies of Grukk and the AOS megaboss that got converted in various ways for various uses.
cody.d. wrote: I suppose it's because GW knows that the investment of making the marine character is likely to be made back. Though I'd also argue that orks tend to be fanatical converters. Any model that's useful for that will be bought at least once, possibly multiple times. I know I have 3 copies of Grukk and the AOS megaboss that got converted in various ways for various uses.
That's why I am forever disappointed that they made looted wagons a non-matched play option instead of a mainstay codex datasheet. Given how much Orks convert other army vehicles into our army, why would they not take extra money from cross-army kitbashing?
I don´t know about a new Boy kit as GW tends to make fixed pose models nowadays, which is less variation. It´s just boring to me.
In other news I played against new Necrons with a custom dynasty with a melee slant. They had the 6" pre-game move, which is quite good with such a durable army. It forced me to react or else he´d own the whole midfield and win on Primaries. Lucky we are no slouches in melee so I could counter attack and wrestle back the objectives, but I liked the strategy. (Manz > Lychguard ) It´ll be interesting to see more of it.
Grimskul wrote: I would love to see Nazdreg as our BM character, he's part of the reason why tellyporta technology got perfected in his partnership with Ghazzy. It would be another mega armour boss which could be a dual kit to make regular Mega Armoured Warbosses again!
Old Zogwort would be an ideal Snakebite leader, though he could also arguably be a Freeboota since he's more of a mercenary for hire at this point than strictly a Snakebite.
Ol Zogwort is not a snakebite character though. His lore says he is a feral ork who became a freeboota.
Scactha wrote: I don´t know about a new Boy kit as GW tends to make fixed pose models nowadays, which is less variation. It´s just boring to me.
In other news I played against new Necrons with a custom dynasty with a melee slant. They had the 6" pre-game move, which is quite good with such a durable army. It forced me to react or else he´d own the whole midfield and win on Primaries. Lucky we are no slouches in melee so I could counter attack and wrestle back the objectives, but I liked the strategy. (Manz > Lychguard ) It´ll be interesting to see more of it.
Can you cover more of the events and both of your lists? I had a nailbiter of a game yesterday against some melee necrons and their potential durability+punching power really took me by surprise. I play Evil Sunz so not getting Obsec on my infantry really, really sucked compared to my normal experience on fighting Eldar. I think I managed to tie the game only due to our wide arsenal of causing mortal wound on the Nightbringer on different phases (especially exploding vehicles). A charging Bonebreaka couldn't finish a squad of Lychguard which then grew back around it due to some character sticking by. I also lost 3 meganobz to breakout rolls On the other hand the bulk of their army seems quite slow and easily avoidable by our vehicles. A squad of 20 warriors can only hold one objective at a time, so I guess bullying them with Obsec 5-man kommando squads would deny a lot of points. Alas, no such fun for Evil Sunz.
Btw, I've now played 4 games using the Boomdakka Snazzwagon and I have to say I love that thing. It's dead fast when playing Evil Sunz and is perfect for stealing objectives from small infantry squads. For 90 points being -1 to hit, T6 and W8, w/ Grot Bumber and no decrading profile means a high risk/low reward deal for enemy AT and a pretty damn tough nut to crack for S4-5 shooting. It packs a respectable amount of dakka, can mop up the leftovers of small squads in melee and explodes on 50/50. Yesterday it exploded on 7-wound Nightbringer, taking it down to 5 wounds. On my turn it was then easy to shoot the thing with rokkits (S8 and constant D3 being perfect for hunting C'tan) and then finish the deal with Ramming Speed. All great fun. I see no reason to not carry my da fastest buggy around in the future too.
Yea.. i always thought it was odd how there werent any HQ choices for snakebites and Bad moonz yet Goffs have 3 HQ choices (well 2 if we count Ghazz and makari as one).
On a side note:
Is there no semi competitive way (or just fun casual way that wont let you lose all the time) to use a horde of maybe 60-90 Boyz with shootas for massed volley fire? And then some other elite choice.
I think one day when i have enough ork models ill try to do that. Maybe add some flash gitz and some tanky units to see what happens.
have anyone here tried massed boyz shootas in a list since 9th?
Weird that we had such similar games. Anyway, this was just 1250 because he´s just back into the hobby. The gist of it was that he had a flank of Warriors + Overlord + Lychguard and another of Skorpekh Lord + Scorpekh Destroyers + Warriors on the other. (So no C'Tan)
He advanced on a line, but was divided into two parts due to a wood just by the center. I deliberated if it´d be worth it to tarpit one flank as this would delay the other coming in support. If I didn´t he´d own the whole midboard as I wrote before. Thus I sent my attack force of Trukk w Manz and Warboss + 3 Nobz Trikes + Defkilla escorted by a KBB on the Overlord/Lychguard/Warrior-flank. The buggy roasted 7 Warriors with Burnin' Highway and the Trukk + Bikes charged in to tarpit him. His mistake here was to expose his Overlord and that´s probably the major difference between games. By 2nd turn the Overlord was down and Lych melted faster than Orks.
Another note on the game is the worth of having a reserve to react with and how well Dreads do that. I had Grots, Boyz, Scrapjet and a Dread by my backline taking pot shots. Midgame the Scrapjet captured the centre objective for a short while, but the Dread really shone by being a serious melee threat that rushed up and minced the Scorpekhs.
AarresaariAarre wrote: Btw, I've now played 4 games using the Boomdakka Snazzwagon and I have to say I love that thing. It's dead fast when playing Evil Sunz and is perfect for stealing objectives from small infantry squads. For 90 points being -1 to hit, T6 and W8, w/ Grot Bumber and no decrading profile means a high risk/low reward deal for enemy AT and a pretty damn tough nut to crack for S4-5 shooting. It packs a respectable amount of dakka, can mop up the leftovers of small squads in melee and explodes on 50/50. Yesterday it exploded on 7-wound Nightbringer, taking it down to 5 wounds. On my turn it was then easy to shoot the thing with rokkits (S8 and constant D3 being perfect for hunting C'tan) and then finish the deal with Ramming Speed. All great fun. I see no reason to not carry my da fastest buggy around in the future too.
That´s a good observation. It´s a chaff killer with increased durability in an environment where players park soft units on objectives. I use the KBB/Burnin' Highway for that role, but your plan seems wholly viable too. Good find.
Boomdakka Snazzwagon is strictly worse at everything than the KBB.
The only thing it has going for it is the -1 to hit, which is not worth all the things you lose by not taking a KBB.
Most people talking about the explosion also seem to forget that the range of that explosion is random as well - the extra chance of exploding on a 4 and 5 is mitigated by not hitting anything with it when you roll a low explosion radius.
Beardedragon wrote: Yea.. i always thought it was odd how there werent any HQ choices for snakebites and Bad moonz yet Goffs have 3 HQ choices (well 2 if we count Ghazz and makari as one).
Here is my low hanging fruit wishlist
1) Make the tellyporta option in the mega armor box make a Named badmoon nazdreg mega armor warboss with special Tellyporta, and will either double saw or Saw and mega kannon
He needs a reroll wounds of 1 shooting aura to bring badmoons back up.
2) make the grukk face rippa datasheet match play legal For generic goff warboss
3) make a plastic weirdboy w named ol zogwart snakebite option- special power converts A friendly ”clan” model into a monstrous squig- 40mm base model comes with weirdboy
4) named plastic mekadread for deathskulls- let’s bring dread lists back!!! Fragrak the Planetsmasha would be ideal to join ghaz Waagh...
Plastic Kommandos that don't cost $50 for 5 of them.
Buff Burna's/Lootas/Tankbustas and other "elite" units so they are more durable. In an edition where a Basic Marine just became twice as hard to kill but only went up in price 20% I think we are going to need 4+ armor on those elite units and possibly other things.
Buff Burna's/Lootas/Tankbustas and other "elite" units so they are more durable. In an edition where a Basic Marine just became twice as hard to kill but only went up in price 20% I think we are going to need 4+ armor on those elite units and possibly other things.
Yeah, I really dislike how hesistant they are to change stats for Ork units when it comes to saves and other characteristics. Lootas, Kommandos, and Tankbustas at the very least should have a 5+ save, if not 4+. With how underwhelming lootas already are (and how likely they are to take away shooting twice from Bad Moons) they may as well just give them Heavy 3 for their Deffguns. Same thing with Burna Boyz, make them a flat 3 shots each for burnas if they're not going to even do us the solid of making them D6 shots each.
Surprised no one has brought this up, but if they're going to keep grots at 5 points, they have to be at least WORTH that much. Making them always count as being in dense and light terrain (to reflect their small size) would make taking them more palatable, or having strats beyond grot shields where they can suicide bomb themselves in combat for mortal wounds on 5+ or something. Would there be even a point in buffing their ranged damage or giving them T3? Not sure, but even pre-game scouting ability like Nurglings wouldn't be bad.
1x warbos + da biggest boss
1x megamek + da klever boss
Now the question is, how do you balance their melee weapon?
Mek can have the PK. So my plan now is give him Killa Klaw and have 5x10/-3/3 with full rerolls on wound and one on hit
Now the warboss - let' s give him a Killchoppa and warlord + Might is right = 6x 9/-2/2 with some rerolls and some MW. S9 wounds tanks, damage 2 gives me the rare option to kill 4wound bikers and 2wound marines effectiely.
Both have WS 2+, both have decent durability.
Non of them is optimal deathstar (warboss+trait+killaklaw) but I see a power in redundancy. What is more - except combination warboos + biggest boss + might is right + killaklaw, I don' t see the upgrade in rising Strenght. What is the benefit of 12 over 10? The combo described above gives me S14 = wound rhino and similars on 2+. That is only worth it imho.
perhaps if GrotShields was an innate ability instead of a strat we could better justify the 5ppm.
At least then you can say youre paying for a proper shield and can now effectively cover multiple units, and not get baited to protect 1 unit then switch targets.
Theres no way theyre gonna make grots effective, even at 5ppm. It would "just be wrong to have grots outshining boyz" - its probably why we havnt seen any grot gunners yet either (snipers, bigshootas, etc)
Scactha wrote:]Weird that we had such similar games. Anyway, this was just 1250 because he´s just back into the hobby. The gist of it was that he had a flank of Warriors + Overlord + Lychguard and another of Skorpekh Lord + Scorpekh Destroyers + Warriors on the other. (So no C'Tan)
He advanced on a line, but was divided into two parts due to a wood just by the center. I deliberated if it´d be worth it to tarpit one flank as this would delay the other coming in support. If I didn´t he´d own the whole midboard as I wrote before. Thus I sent my attack force of Trukk w Manz and Warboss + 3 Nobz Trikes + Defkilla escorted by a KBB on the Overlord/Lychguard/Warrior-flank. The buggy roasted 7 Warriors with Burnin' Highway and the Trukk + Bikes charged in to tarpit him. His mistake here was to expose his Overlord and that´s probably the major difference between games. By 2nd turn the Overlord was down and Lych melted faster than Orks.
Another note on the game is the worth of having a reserve to react with and how well Dreads do that. I had Grots, Boyz, Scrapjet and a Dread by my backline taking pot shots. Midgame the Scrapjet captured the centre objective for a short while, but the Dread really shone by being a serious melee threat that rushed up and minced the Scorpekhs.
Sounds fascinating! Were you afraid of the Lychs' melee before they went down? They don't seem so hard on paper, but they can get quite big when buffed.
What were your ending scores?
That´s a good observation. It´s a chaff killer with increased durability in an environment where players park soft units on objectives. I use the KBB/Burnin' Highway for that role, but your plan seems wholly viable too. Good find.
Jidmah wrote:Boomdakka Snazzwagon is strictly worse at everything than the KBB.
The only thing it has going for it is the -1 to hit, which is not worth all the things you lose by not taking a KBB.
Most people talking about the explosion also seem to forget that the range of that explosion is random as well - the extra chance of exploding on a 4 and 5 is mitigated by not hitting anything with it when you roll a low explosion radius.
While I agree completely that KBB as a screen clearer/frontline chaf-muncher is much more potent than the Snazzwagon, I have to disagree that the latter is strictly worse at everything. I think SW is not supposed to be used in the offensive role KBB shines in, but it's much better at making it to the lonely/softly guarded objectives and staying there. KBB has nothing going on defensively which basically means that if the opponent wants it dead there's only little risk involved. On the other hand SW's -1 to hit and Grot Bumber auto-passing one wound roll rises the risk of wasting AT fire. Both can quite reliably take a backwater objective from any basic 5-man grabber unit (KBB much more reliably of course), but KBB then needs either terrain help (which is situational) or repeated cp spend to raise it's survivability to SW's level and even then doesn't have the "pass one damage roll" card in it's sleeve when you really need to make it through one more round. And if it get's charged by something that wants the objective back (which will have to be something bigger than what was there earlier), SW has a 3 times better chance to explode on it's face causing some mortal wound as a revenge.
This all of course comes from my perspective as a very low-level local scene player. I'm sure there's a reason why Snazzwagons don't show up in GT tier lists and KBBs do. I'm also sure that in most cases one gets more out of a KBB investment than SW one. But I don't think KBBs do everything better than a SW. Indeed I think Snazzwagons have a small but existing role as a fast (especially Evil Sunz) and cheapish objective grabbers that are annoying enough to take down to discourage trying.
Vineheart01 wrote: perhaps if GrotShields was an innate ability instead of a strat we could better justify the 5ppm.
At least then you can say youre paying for a proper shield and can now effectively cover multiple units, and not get baited to protect 1 unit then switch targets.
Theres no way theyre gonna make grots effective, even at 5ppm. It would "just be wrong to have grots outshining boyz" - its probably why we havnt seen any grot gunners yet either (snipers, bigshootas, etc)
And realistically, I can't see GW doing much if anything for grots without releasing a new kit. Grot snipers would be fun, so would grotz actually getting access to range 24-30 guns. Fluff wise it makes sense, they are cowardly so they would rather sit back and shoot (AKA Mek Gunz).
Vineheart01 wrote: perhaps if GrotShields was an innate ability instead of a strat we could better justify the 5ppm.
At least then you can say youre paying for a proper shield and can now effectively cover multiple units, and not get baited to protect 1 unit then switch targets.
Theres no way theyre gonna make grots effective, even at 5ppm. It would "just be wrong to have grots outshining boyz" - its probably why we havnt seen any grot gunners yet either (snipers, bigshootas, etc)
True, though personally I would have a bad taste in my mouth if they became like what shield drones saviour protocols were for Tau.
It's weird they have an aversion for grots in 40k when they play a significantly larger role in AoS, since once they finally update the few resin kits in the Ork army, having more grot-centric units would be easy avenue for GW to take to expand the Ork range.
They wouldnt be as dumb as shield drones unless they gave them a FNP against the redirect and came in several small squads instead of 1-2 large ones.
Grots can still be clean-sweeped by whatever high rate of attack has range on them, youre better off killing the grots than trying to force through the 2+ to hit the boys behind them in that case.
Shield drones are usually in small squads, T4, and a 4++ so its difficult to target them first and not massively overkill them or get unlucky and plink off doing nothing at all.
Vineheart01 wrote: They wouldnt be as dumb as shield drones unless they gave them a FNP against the redirect and came in several small squads instead of 1-2 large ones.
Grots can still be clean-sweeped by whatever high rate of attack has range on them, youre better off killing the grots than trying to force through the 2+ to hit the boys behind them in that case.
Shield drones are usually in small squads, T4, and a 4++ so its difficult to target them first and not massively overkill them or get unlucky and plink off doing nothing at all.
Valid point. It would also make taking Loota Squads and Flash Gitz more viable if the Grot shield rule was built in since you don't have to keep spending CP each turn to keep them alive.
Jidmah wrote: Boomdakka Snazzwagon is strictly worse at everything than the KBB.
The only thing it has going for it is the -1 to hit, which is not worth all the things you lose by not taking a KBB.
Most people talking about the explosion also seem to forget that the range of that explosion is random as well - the extra chance of exploding on a 4 and 5 is mitigated by not hitting anything with it when you roll a low explosion radius.
I agree on paper, I took some as a joke once and now I include 1-2 in all my buggy lists.
The -1 to hit, as how many attacks they get while in combat is pretty impressive. The explosion radius is random but ideally you will have them explode on things that killed them in assault.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah necron players arent expecting it to last that long.
Its unusually strong vs the other ctans, and the same exact cost.
Kinda sad i dont have one so i cant relish in its OP'ness in marine faces while it lasts lol
You know the SM whining about it will fill the heavens in GWHQ until it gets mega-nerfed into the ground. Especially when it denies them so much of their toys.
AarresaariAarre wrote: While I agree completely that KBB as a screen clearer/frontline chaf-muncher is much more potent than the Snazzwagon, I have to disagree that the latter is strictly worse at everything. I think SW is not supposed to be used in the offensive role KBB shines in, but it's much better at making it to the lonely/softly guarded objectives and staying there. KBB has nothing going on defensively which basically means that if the opponent wants it dead there's only little risk involved. On the other hand SW's -1 to hit and Grot Bumber auto-passing one wound roll rises the risk of wasting AT fire.
You're right on the defensive parts, but I've never found -1 to hit to make a difference for a buggy. If my opponent needs it to die, it will. If you really feel that it would make a difference, you can always use the Billowing Exhaust Cloulds stratagem on a KBB. I honestly have never used the grot bumper, because my opponents have always ignored it because it deals almost no damage or ground it down over time with weapons that had nothing else to shoot or were 1 damage anyways.
Both can quite reliably take a backwater objective from any basic 5-man grabber unit (KBB much more reliably of course), but KBB then needs either terrain help (which is situational) or repeated cp spend to raise it's survivability to SW's level and even then doesn't have the "pass one damage roll" card in it's sleeve when you really need to make it through one more round. And if it get's charged by something that wants the objective back (which will have to be something bigger than what was there earlier), SW has a 3 times better chance to explode on it's face causing some mortal wound as a revenge.
I actually have a snazzwagon which I proxy as KBB now. My main gripe with it was that it in fact regularly fails to clear those units which have no purpose but grabbing objectives because of its low damage, while a KBB does much more damage, has a spiked ram and can improve that damage through CP. In 9th it also can shoot all its weapons when in combat, while the snazzwagon loses its grenades because of blast.
When facing a durable army like marines, necrons or daemons, I don't see a snazzwagon taking an objective from them - it would just stay stuck in combat for ever.
This all of course comes from my perspective as a very low-level local scene player. I'm sure there's a reason why Snazzwagons don't show up in GT tier lists and KBBs do. I'm also sure that in most cases one gets more out of a KBB investment than SW one. But I don't think KBBs do everything better than a SW. Indeed I think Snazzwagons have a small but existing role as a fast (especially Evil Sunz) and cheapish objective grabbers that are annoying enough to take down to discourage trying.
Your meta really doesn't matter for your perspective, it's valuable either way.
The truth is that a KBB is better at shooting anything from infantry to vehicles, and not just by a bit that might not be noticable. It's almost twice as good at kill the snazzwagon's preferred targets, and that's even before you use the silly powerful burnin' highway stratagem. The snazzwagon has no sawblade and no spiked ram so it's melee ability is pretty much non-existent as well, and the average five hits from shooting will not help either, it's only melee asset is being able to explode. The KBB on the other hand has a spiked ram and is a decent candidate for firing overwatch, which is not unlikely to cause more damage than that explosion.
So while I understand why the snazzwagon seems like a good choice, my experience from running them side by side multiple times is that I never once hope for a KBB to be a snazzwagon, but regularly wished that I had brought a KBB instead of a snazzwagon.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
blaktoof wrote: The -1 to hit, as how many attacks they get while in combat is pretty impressive. The explosion radius is random but ideally you will have them explode on things that killed them in assault.
It has the same amount of attacks as any other buggy though?
Scactha wrote:]Weird that we had such similar games. Anyway, this was just 1250 because he´s just back into the hobby. The gist of it was that he had a flank of Warriors + Overlord + Lychguard and another of Skorpekh Lord + Scorpekh Destroyers + Warriors on the other. (So no C'Tan)
He advanced on a line, but was divided into two parts due to a wood just by the center. I deliberated if it´d be worth it to tarpit one flank as this would delay the other coming in support. If I didn´t he´d own the whole midboard as I wrote before. Thus I sent my attack force of Trukk w Manz and Warboss + 3 Nobz Trikes + Defkilla escorted by a KBB on the Overlord/Lychguard/Warrior-flank. The buggy roasted 7 Warriors with Burnin' Highway and the Trukk + Bikes charged in to tarpit him. His mistake here was to expose his Overlord and that´s probably the major difference between games. By 2nd turn the Overlord was down and Lych melted faster than Orks.
Another note on the game is the worth of having a reserve to react with and how well Dreads do that. I had Grots, Boyz, Scrapjet and a Dread by my backline taking pot shots. Midgame the Scrapjet captured the centre objective for a short while, but the Dread really shone by being a serious melee threat that rushed up and minced the Scorpekhs.
Sounds fascinating! Were you afraid of the Lychs' melee before they went down? They don't seem so hard on paper, but they can get quite big when buffed. What were your ending scores?
Yes, 2 swings at St6 AP3 and 4++ was intimidating, but the point of the attack wasn´t to clear the area as much as a delaying action. He kept buffing them until the Overlord went down, but since we were just trading blows over 2-3 turns Orks were satisfied. The KBB and some Grotz could control the objective those Necrons were aiming for. He conceded at end of T3 with a difference of 20-30 points although I don´t remember the exact score (fun fact was that I picked Assassinate and killed his 3 chars 4 times )
And I guess Jidmah is right on the SW. I concede that I´ve not used it and the problem with lack of melee effectivness is reasonable. KBB packs more punch.
I was thinking of ordering a Big Trakk, what are your experiences with this vehicle? i was thinking of donning it with Supa-Schorchas for the long range flame throwers, but this bad boy has so many customizable ways to be used.
I dont own any my self so i have not used them in battle before.
Kinda sad that "Da Boomer" can only be equipped by gun wagons, and not Big trakks who can otherwise also equip a Kill kannon
Beardragon - ha! I'm checking the same thing right now, except I have one already glued and primed
1. It is one of the coolest models we have. Really nice vehicle and with supa kannon - it looks marvelous. Buy it before someone scrap it from FW page.
2. KBB discused above has however much more dakka for 50% of the points. Big trakk has 6 transport capacity and more wounds, but is still “weak”. BW is significantly harder. So autohiting 24 range is the main adventage...
3. Big trakk is faster (14”) but degrades and has no cc power.
Conclusion = I don ' t see the niche to use it.
Like a weapon platform, it has not enought dakka.
Like hard transport, it is too soft and expensive.
Like fast shock troop it lacks any cc abilities.
I hope new FW rule book gives him more dakka and we' ll have a fast weapon platform.
Tomsug wrote: Beardragon - ha! I'm checking the same thing right now, except I have one already glued and primed
1. It is one of the coolest models we have. Really nice vehicle and with supa kannon - it looks marvelous. Buy it before someone scrap it from FW page.
2. KBB discused above has however much more dakka for 50% of the points. Big trakk has 6 transport capacity and more wounds, but is still “weak”. BW is significantly harder. So autohiting 24 range is the main adventage...
3. Big trakk is faster (14”) but degrades and has no cc power.
Conclusion = I don ' t see the niche to use it.
Like a weapon platform, it has not enought dakka.
Like hard transport, it is too soft and expensive.
Like fast shock troop it lacks any cc abilities.
I hope new FW rule book gives him more dakka and we' ll have a fast weapon platform.
thanks for your input.
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tulun wrote: Don't speak ill of the Big Trakk. You give it a Supa Skorcha and remove units with firey death.
(In reality, it's very expensive, but Supa Skorchas are absolutely filthy).
it was mainly for the use of the Supa Scorcha i was thinking of using this unit.
I hadnt fully gone through all the other items it could have, but the Supa Scorcha seemed really damn powerful.
I cant really figure out, based on wahapedia, if i can only have 1 supa scorcha per Big trakk or two. I always get confused when i have so many options.
tulun wrote: Don't speak ill of the Big Trakk. You give it a Supa Skorcha and remove units with firey death.
(In reality, it's very expensive, but Supa Skorchas are absolutely filthy).
it was mainly for the use of the Supa Scorcha i was thinking of using this unit.
I hadnt fully gone through all the other items it could have, but the Supa Scorcha seemed really damn powerful.
I cant really figure out, based on wahapedia, if i can only have 1 supa scorcha per Big trakk or two. I always get confused when i have so many options.
It's just one. I'd honestly wait until the FW index as suggested, as its ruleset is changing *very* soon.
But honestly, in a casual game, it's probably just something fun to take anyway. If you don't mind that, go for it.
Personally, I'd dissuade anyone from investing into big trakks now. It has originally come from the IA:6 Raid on Kastorell Novem book, and pretty much everything from that book has gone the way of the dodo.
The only weapon option you can still buy is the supa-kannon (you could buy all of them in the past), so if GW follows through with the same no model=no rules ethic as they do with codex units, the big trakk might end up with no options besides dual big shootas and the supa-kannon.
Even if the big trakk does survive the next book, I still firmly believe that FW40k will eventually completely disappear outside of repurposed 30k kits, and that game doesn't have orks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In related news: Kromlech sells totally-not-squiggoths now. Dimensions are really close to the regular squiggoth, but too small to count as gargantuan. Price is roughly 30% less than FW.
yeah anything FW for orks im super skeptical of right now.
They have removed so many options for orks and added 0 back. At this point i wouldnt be surprised it only the Supakannon, Gargsquig, and Bikerboss remains.
Even the regular squiggoth is pretty old and the mold is clearly wearing. Gargsquig isnt mass casted so its likely still fine, i was surprised when i got mine 3 years ago that despite being an old as hell model i had no issues with pits or messy casts.
Jidmah wrote: ....
Even if the big trakk does survive the next book, I still firmly believe that FW40k will eventually completely disappear outside of repurposed 30k kits, and that game doesn't have orks....
The biggest reason to buy, because it' s too good model do not have in collection
Quick Question: What is the standing of the Warboss on a Warbike? I know I've seen it go back and forth between legends and not legends and I can't find conclusively where it is today. Thanks!
Jidmah wrote: Personally, I'd dissuade anyone from investing into big trakks now. It has originally come from the IA:6 Raid on Kastorell Novem book, and pretty much everything from that book has gone the way of the dodo.
The only weapon option you can still buy is the supa-kannon (you could buy all of them in the past), so if GW follows through with the same no model=no rules ethic as they do with codex units, the big trakk might end up with no options besides dual big shootas and the supa-kannon.
Even if the big trakk does survive the next book, I still firmly believe that FW40k will eventually completely disappear outside of repurposed 30k kits, and that game doesn't have orks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In related news: Kromlech sells totally-not-squiggoths now. Dimensions are really close to the regular squiggoth, but too small to count as gargantuan. Price is roughly 30% less than FW.
I thought the Big Trakk came with a super skorcha model? maybe it doesnt then. guess ill have to make something from Kromlech. I already ordered the Big Trakk so im hoping for the best. i also bought a warboss on warbike now that i was at it, because why not. the Warboss and Big trakk i have ordered are my first Forge World models.
I initially wanted a Meka-Dread but i saw it doesnt even work in a Tin ead's culture so i figured, you know, Zog that.
And yea i saw that totally not gargantuan Squiggoth unit.
And their fancy, im guessing, Squig killa kans? rofl
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: Quick Question: What is the standing of the Warboss on a Warbike? I know I've seen it go back and forth between legends and not legends and I can't find conclusively where it is today. Thanks!
It has never been in legends. Right now it simply doesn't exist, the only way to play your model is as Zardsnark Da Rippa.
GW has promised that the biker warboss will return with the new FW books, but only mork knows when those will be released.
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Beardedragon wrote: I thought the Big Trakk came with a super skorcha model? maybe it doesnt then. guess ill have to make something from Kromlech. I already ordered the Big Trakk so im hoping for the best. i also bought a warboss on warbike now that i was at it, because why not. the Warboss and Big trakk i have ordered are my first Forge World models.
I guess if everything fails, you can always glue your big trakk to a base and have it count as one of the buggies or a trukk. Not too sure on its actual dimensions, I have never seen a FW one in real life.
Fairly certain there was never an official model for the Super Skorcha. Which is a shame because I would adore seeing what a scorcha of that size would look like. But when in doubt, get a battlewagon turret and fill the fun barrel with flamers or as big a flamer as you can find.
cody.d. wrote: Fairly certain there was never an official model for the Super Skorcha. Which is a shame because I would adore seeing what a scorcha of that size would look like. But when in doubt, get a battlewagon turret and fill the fun barrel with flamers or as big a flamer as you can find.
I have seen people loot hellhound and other heavy flamer variants and basically stick it altogether as the Super Skorcha equivalent.
Wasn't there a supa-skorcha arm for the mega-dread?
I'm fairly sure that a supa-skorcha was basically a pair skorchas that looked like a slightly larger version of the one in the dread/kanz kit, except that each of them had two barrels going from the fuel tank to the igniter.
Jidmah wrote: Wasn't there a supa-skorcha arm for the mega-dread?
I'm fairly sure that a supa-skorcha was basically a pair skorchas that looked like a slightly larger version of the one in the dread/kanz kit, except that each of them had two barrels going from the fuel tank to the igniter.
There was the option to take it but it was never an actual modelling option that you could buy on the FW store. It was only the Killkannon, the rippa klaw, rippa saw, and technically the shunta if you included the meka dread options.
cody.d. wrote: Fairly certain there was never an official model for the Super Skorcha. Which is a shame because I would adore seeing what a scorcha of that size would look like. But when in doubt, get a battlewagon turret and fill the fun barrel with flamers or as big a flamer as you can find.
I have seen people loot hellhound and other heavy flamer variants and basically stick it altogether as the Super Skorcha equivalent.
Personally, because I'm a nutta I'd nick the flamer weapon from the Castallen knight. Now THAT is a superskorcha.
I think, for the closest thing the orks have to a leader, its odd that Ghazzy still hits his ranged attacks on 5+.
I feel like he should be at least a 4+ like Flash Gitz.
And for the whole supa skorcha thing, ill probably have to buy a Kromlech oil barrel and glue it to the flame turret I once got from them by accident. guess it will do.
My bad, it was the gitfinda, not the targeting squig. When transferring from 7th to 8th, they removed the gitfinda wargear item which gave +1 to hit from standing still and made snazzguns heavy and flash gits BS4+ instead. In all prior editions flash gits were BS2 like all other orks and snazzguns were assault.
For a cheap couple of supa skorchas just ask a SM player if he has those big flamers from the LT Redeemer kit in his bitz box. LR Crusader is way more common than the Redeemer and not many players magnetize it so it shouldn't be that hard to find someone with that spared bitz.
So I played against the new Necron codex yesterday and got thrashed on both primary and secondary objectives.
He used the custom Dynasty rules with 6" pregame move and obsec on everything. He ran dual ghost arks with 3 big squads of warriors, supported by a lord and cryptek for maximum warrior regeneration, and a single Doom Scythe. He also had a Skorpekh Destroyer lord and a unit of the new destroyers to hold me up in close combat.
What worked really well for him was that he gained the midfield before I did (thanks to pre game move and first turn) and I didn't have anough combat power to push him off the objectives.
Basically I failed to wipe any of his warriors squads, so one squad could fall back, while the arks and the other warriors blasted me to bits at close range.
What worked well was the tankbustas downing the doom scythe in one round of shooting, and the warboss downed his destroyer lord in a single fight phase.
What didn't work well was both deff dreads. They managed to kill 2 bases of scarabs before being pushed over in close combat.
My list at 1500pts was:
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Orks) ++
+ Configuration +
Battle Size: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Clan Kultur / Specialist Mobs: Evil Sunz
Detachment CP
+ HQ +
Warboss: Brutal but Kunnin, Da Biggest Boss, Da Killa Klaw, Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw, Warlord
Weirdboy: Evil Sunz: Visions in the Smoke
+ Troops +
Boyz: Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga
. 11x Ork Boy W/ Shoota: 11x Shoota, 11x Stikkbombs
Boyz: Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga
. 11x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa: 11x Choppa, 11x Slugga, 11x Stikkbombs
Boyz: Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga
. 10x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa: 10x Choppa, 10x Slugga, 10x Stikkbombs
+ Elites +
Nobz
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Choppa, Power Stabba
Gunwagon: Big Shoota, Grot Rigger, Killkannon
. Kustom Job: Da Boomer
+ Dedicated Transport +
Trukk: Big Shoota
Trukk: Big Shoota
I am thinking that either I need to skip most of the vehicles and go with a green tide list with Ghazzy, or I need to go more heavy on vehicles and try go gain some resilence through target saturation.
I have the following models:
Warboss
2 Weirdboy
Warboss on Warbike
KFF Big Mek
SAG Big Mek
29 Slugga Boyz
29 Shoota Boyz
10 Grots
Painboy
Nob w. Waagh banner
10 Nobz with mixed CC gear
10 Tankbustas w. 2 squigs
3 Deffkoptas
25 Stormboyz
4 Warbikers
2 Deff Dreads with Klaws and Skorchas
2 Battlewagon
2 Trukk
Looted Wagon w. big gun
Meka Dread
Can you guys help me build a better list? I'm thinking I could get far with Ghazzy, some more Boyz and some Meganobz, but I really like the ork vehicles.
Strangely enough have both me and AarresaariAarre met the same Necron strategy within a week of each other and discussed it a bit.
What´s your strategy with the list? I had a 1250 game with an assault force that hit him before he could reach the midline. It was delay enough for me to win on Primaries. The crux is to not get swallowed up by his line while also slowing him down. In my case I used terrain to split him into two parts, but that´s not a guarantee.
On the warriors I used a mix of KBB/Buring Highway and Deffkilla/Gork's Roar to weaken them enough for the assault team to stomp them. A crucial part there was the tag-team Defkilla+Nobz Bikes as these could charge T1. Sure the Nobz folded pretty quick, but then the followup Trukk and Manz+Warboss could continue the assault-tarpit action. So my message is to somehow stagger his advance asap. How, could be in a myriad of ways.
Looking at your list I´d send one Trukk full of Boyz forward and Ramming Speed it into their line T1. The BW would follow behind to draw fire and spill out the Warboss+Nobz next. The problem here is that the Nobz aren´t equipped to handle Necron Elite although the Warboss is. I believe they need better melee weapons than Choppas at least. All this is just a delay action so your other Trukk and Dreads can capture objectives and engage the rest of the Necrons. In the meanwhile the Gunwagon uses Visions to suppress and the Tankbustas react to whoever gets through the barrage. The final Boy mob guards the backline from deeping units.
As for changing stuff, maybe lose the 2nd Trukk for 2 Deathkoptas. They are good at capturing objectives and body blocking. Or shift the Weirdboy for the Painboy to go with the BW and keep the Warboss standing longer plus some extra durability to the Nobz.
Bonde, Scactha is right you have not enought of punch power. Too many chopas. You need more klaws and saws. Or at least big choppas. Look at his list - MANz and pk nob bikers.
Honestly nowaday I have a feeling that boyz are here to die protecting the nob with saw/pk, not to kill something significant.
Wartrike
Weirdboy - stayed next to deff to cast vision in smoke and to other shenanigans.
2x 10 boyz (4 choppa+slugga, 4 shoota, 1 big shoota and boss with claw and choppa) in warkoptas
deff dread
4 mekgunz (smashas <3)
2x megatruk
2x dragsta.
3x deffkopta
What was most annoying for my opponents:
- rattler kannons (once i made mistake and took deffguns... I stil wounded tanks on 5 so 4d6 is better than 2d3) - this was turning SM, CSMIG and bugs into a pulp...my plan was to drop them, pray they ll survive to disembark boyz and fire from the distance in next turn. It works.
- dragstas and megatruks and hit'n'run stratagems
- wartrike with follow me lads is mobile as f and allowed my fellow greenskins to charge after they advanced and emptied their mags at opponents troops.
- smashas... 4 of them gave very hard time for IG
I am a little unsatisfied with deff dreads. Maybe I didnt use them well. Will see in next games.
Tomsug wrote: Bonde, Scactha is right you have not enought of punch power. Too many chopas. You need more klaws and saws. Or at least big choppas. Look at his list - MANz and pk nob bikers.
Honestly nowaday I have a feeling that boyz are here to die protecting the nob with saw/pk, not to kill something significant.
Ironically, that was how Ork boyz were mainly used in previous editions, as PK Nob protectors effectively. Weird how things are starting to come full circle. I would say that the Ork boy overall still does more than the Nob in most instances, but they're definitely less relevant with the plethora of multiwound 3+ save models. I'd argue the value of boyz is less for offensive value and more for just area denial in this edition.
I just played a game where i wanted to reroll my charge, and my opponent says i have to reroll both die.
I know you often have to reroll both die in 9th edition but my codex still states i can reroll only 1 die if i please. Because obviously it was made for 8th.
But which of the two is correct? Can i reroll only 1 die if i want (or both) or do i HAVE to reroll both die for a charge reroll?
I just played a game where i wanted to reroll my charge, and my opponent says i have to reroll both die.
I know you often have to reroll both die in 9th edition but my codex still states i can reroll only 1 die if i please. Because obviously it was made for 8th.
But which of the two is correct? Can i reroll only 1 die if i want (or both) or do i HAVE to reroll both die for a charge reroll?
If you are using a unit with the 'Ere We Go! special rule, then you are allowed to reroll one or both dice for charges. If you are using the command reroll stratagem for a unit that does not have it the 'Ere We Go! special rule, then you must reroll both dice for the charge.
Jidmah wrote: What Grimskul said. Many people who don't play orks are confused by this because being able to re-roll one or both is actually quite rare.
When in doubt, just point them to your codex.
i did but he said the codex was written before 9th edition rule that meant all rerolls of several die should be both die...
Also he attacked my Chinork warkopta in melee. I understand that its not a dedicated flyer, since its dedicated transport, but can you really hit the Chinork with melee units? thats just lazy writing, geez. its a damn helicopter.
Jidmah wrote: What Grimskul said. Many people who don't play orks are confused by this because being able to re-roll one or both is actually quite rare.
When in doubt, just point them to your codex.
i did but he said the codex was written before 9th edition rule that meant all rerolls of several die should be both die...
Also he attacked my Chinork warkopta in melee. I understand that its not a dedicated flyer, since its dedicated transport, but can you really hit the Chinork with melee units? thats just lazy writing, geez. its a damn helicopter.
He's trying to game you then. By that logic, you can't play with any codex that isn't Necrons and SM, since all of those other codices were designed for 8th. Look no further than Custodes being able to get a 3++ save with relics or their storm shields, does that mean they don't get that as well?
Also, he can charge it. Just like you can charge deffkoptas. The only aircraft that has protection from charging is having the bespoke Airborne rule.
I mean, you can say the same for any vehicle that can fly or hover. Eldar vehicles are noted to be moving at incredible speeds but some grot can still take a swing. Same thing with Land Speeders who really zip around.
It'd honestly be really, really annoying if you couldn't assault them. It'd cut out massive portions of armies from being able to deal with them.
cody.d. wrote: I mean, you can say the same for any vehicle that can fly or hover. Eldar vehicles are noted to be moving at incredible speeds but some grot can still take a swing. Same thing with Land Speeders who really zip around.
It'd honestly be really, really annoying if you couldn't assault them. It'd cut out massive portions of armies from being able to deal with them.
Eldar vehicles hover.. a helicopter literally flies around in the air.
But it is what it is. Sadly my goff army lost to Space wolves Today.
But how high do they hover exactly? Has there ever been any confirmation of their limits or has it always been fairly nebulous, whatever the author needs at the time?
Most of the art we see is several metres off the ground, way out of reach of some ponse holding a sword in his hands.
cody.d. wrote: But how high do they hover exactly? Has there ever been any confirmation of their limits or has it always been fairly nebulous, whatever the author needs at the time?
Most of the art we see is several metres off the ground, way out of reach of some ponse holding a sword in his hands.
Also, aren't hover and flight synonyms?
Yeah, I've seen several cases in art where Tau Hammerheads/Devilfish as well as Eldar Wave Serpents can go as high as into the sky briefly, so you have to remember the game is an abstraction. Otherwise it makes no sense why a grot blasta would have a chance to damage a Warlord Titan.
cody.d. wrote: But how high do they hover exactly? Has there ever been any confirmation of their limits or has it always been fairly nebulous, whatever the author needs at the time?
Most of the art we see is several metres off the ground, way out of reach of some ponse holding a sword in his hands.
Also, aren't hover and flight synonyms?
Yeah, I've seen several cases in art where Tau Hammerheads/Devilfish as well as Eldar Wave Serpents can go as high as into the sky briefly, so you have to remember the game is an abstraction. Otherwise it makes no sense why a grot blasta would have a chance to damage a Warlord Titan.
The grot blasta I like to imagine being akin to getting sand in the inner workings of a firearm. A little chunk of metal getting into the wrong gears or pistons would be enough to cause issues eventually.
But yeah, you're right in regards to abstract gameplay mechanics making little sense or even creating hilarious scenarios in world. Like when the Grabba klaw in previous editions could work on flyers and stop them from moving. And cause a flyer crashes if it can't move you get the image of this little truck launching a grappling hook at a plane and causing it to do a Wile E Coyote and slam right into the ground.
It gets murky at once when you try to implement sense into gaming. When playing my fav Kultur Blood Axes, I often employ Dead Sneaky' Manz. There´s a mental picture that doesn´t really form well either
What do you generally aim your Da Boomer's at? It obviously shines even more now that all marines are more expensive and have 2 wounds, but against armies that don't have such obvious targets, what do you think hands out the most reward? Do you prefer light vehicles, elites with invuls or even hordes?
Beardedragon wrote: Well thanks for the help. Ill be adamant about keeping my 1 die re roll for charges.
I still think its silly that you can charge a helicopter. This thing doesnt exactly fly 2 meters above ground.. or at least that wouldnt make sense
why is my message sent twice? thats weird.
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Scactha wrote: It gets murky at once when you try to implement sense into gaming. When playing my fav Kultur Blood Axes, I often employ Dead Sneaky' Manz. There´s a mental picture that doesn´t really form well either
Yea but because of my "realism in tabletop" i was completely blind to the fact that the Chinork can actually contest and interact with quite a few objectives.
Like the secondary "Raze", that doesnt require infantry, you just cant be "Aircraft". I didnt raze anything with my chinork because i had told myself: Hey, this is surely an aircraft as its a helicopter, so i cant interact with many of these secondaries that dont require infantry".
Basically my chinork is a large grav tank and i need to play it as such. It kinda opens up a few possibilities but also issues as im now fully aware of the fact my chopper can be destroyed in melee combat.
AarresaariAarre wrote: What do you generally aim your Da Boomer's at? It obviously shines even more now that all marines are more expensive and have 2 wounds, but against armies that don't have such obvious targets, what do you think hands out the most reward? Do you prefer light vehicles, elites with invuls or even hordes?
Usually vehicles/monsters, then units of 11+ models, then 2W infantry, then stuff I need gone for whatever reason. It's good against pretty much everything but small units of single-wound infantry, so often I shoot it as one of the first units to see if it rolls high and then finish off its target or switch when it doesn't. Alternatively, I use it to plonk off the last wounds of something that the buggies have failed to kill when there isn't much choice of what needs to die.
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Beardedragon wrote: Yea but because of my "realism in tabletop" i was completely blind to the fact that the Chinork can actually contest and interact with quite a few objectives.
Like the secondary "Raze", that doesnt require infantry, you just cant be "Aircraft". I didnt raze anything with my chinork because i had told myself: Hey, this is surely an aircraft as its a helicopter, so i cant interact with many of these secondaries that dont require infantry".
Due to the FAQ, the chinork has the AIRCRAFT keyword which prevents it from contesting objectives. It's also likely that giving it this keyword was an oversight and not intended.
In general, the chinork is just a larger variant of the deff kopta, so it flies just above ground. See below for the page on them in the book that originally introduced them as "Warkoptas".
Jidmah wrote: [
Usually vehicles/monsters, then units of 11+ models, then 2W infantry, then stuff I need gone for whatever reason. It's good against pretty much everything but small units of single-wound infantry, so often I shoot it as one of the first units to see if it rolls high and then finish off its target or switch when it doesn't. Alternatively, I use it to plonk off the last wounds of something that the buggies have failed to kill when there isn't much choice of what needs to die.
I too love the ability to shoot once for a test and then decide if I want to switch targets. I just wish big shootas were free/had more bang so that I could use them to finish off the odd stuff. Btw, don't you think that shooting at vehicles/monsters sorta collides with what Mek Gunz are doing for cheaper?
Jidmah wrote: What Grimskul said. Many people who don't play orks are confused by this because being able to re-roll one or both is actually quite rare.
When in doubt, just point them to your codex.
i did but he said the codex was written before 9th edition rule that meant all rerolls of several die should be both die...
Also he attacked my Chinork warkopta in melee. I understand that its not a dedicated flyer, since its dedicated transport, but can you really hit the Chinork with melee units? thats just lazy writing, geez. its a damn helicopter.
Ask him to show rule from rulebook saying so. There's no rule that prevents only one. In fact quoting 9th ed core rules:
Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get
to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a
dice roll that was made by adding several dice together (2D6, 3D6 etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must re-roll all of those
dice again.
So as we can see rules make allowance of rerolling only some but not all. And furthermore it says that default is all must be rolled unless otherwise stated. Now just point to your codex. It clearly is saying otherwise.
Nothing like being able to show actual rule for the opponent Page 5 of the basic rules btw. First words "measuring distances" on that page. Bottom right corner talks about rerolls.
AarresaariAarre wrote: What do you generally aim your Da Boomer's at? It obviously shines even more now that all marines are more expensive and have 2 wounds, but against armies that don't have such obvious targets, what do you think hands out the most reward? Do you prefer light vehicles, elites with invuls or even hordes?
Usually vehicles/monsters, then units of 11+ models, then 2W infantry, then stuff I need gone for whatever reason. It's good against pretty much everything but small units of single-wound infantry, so often I shoot it as one of the first units to see if it rolls high and then finish off its target or switch when it doesn't. Alternatively, I use it to plonk off the last wounds of something that the buggies have failed to kill when there isn't much choice of what needs to die.
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Beardedragon wrote: Yea but because of my "realism in tabletop" i was completely blind to the fact that the Chinork can actually contest and interact with quite a few objectives.
Like the secondary "Raze", that doesnt require infantry, you just cant be "Aircraft". I didnt raze anything with my chinork because i had told myself: Hey, this is surely an aircraft as its a helicopter, so i cant interact with many of these secondaries that dont require infantry".
Due to the FAQ, the chinork has the AIRCRAFT keyword which prevents it from contesting objectives. It's also likely that giving it this keyword was an oversight and not intended.
In general, the chinork is just a larger variant of the deff kopta, so it flies just above ground. See below for the page on them in the book that originally introduced them as "Warkoptas".
Spoiler:
huh... So.. like where do i find all these FAQs :/? I feel like being a new player and trying to keep up with different rules is super difficult. So far my info comes from my codexes and Wahapedia which neither has it stated as an aircraft, so i didnt even know it was one.
EDIT:
Actually partly scrap that. Wahapedia now correctly calls it an aircraft too. i just screen copied the datasheets from wahapedia some time ago and back then it wasnt an aircraft, but i guess they changed it on wahapedia now too. My own prints simply didnt have that.
Good to know.
But if its an aircraft, does that mean it, once again, cant be attacked by melee? or does it have to state specifically if this is the case?
AarresaariAarre wrote: What do you generally aim your Da Boomer's at? It obviously shines even more now that all marines are more expensive and have 2 wounds, but against armies that don't have such obvious targets, what do you think hands out the most reward? Do you prefer light vehicles, elites with invuls or even hordes?
T4 2W 3+ is the perfect target for Da Boomer.
I typically ignore T8 models, and most of the times even T7 ones, with orks firepower unless I'm firing rokkits or KMB equivalents. Our "anti tank" weapons aren't really that good against T8 2/3+ models of stuff with invulns since we don't get lots of hits from our weapons, then we have to wound and AP-2 isn't great at all. Da Boomer IMHO competes with Smasha Gunz in taking out heavy infantries. Killing 1-3 dudes or stripping half wounds off a light vehicle is better than doing 0-2 damage to a proper tank/monster.
For that reason I always go against light vehicels instead of tanks with Da Boomer, unless I really need to strip the last few wounds off a big thing or other particular scenarios. Gravis dudes or bikes are definitely a better target for Da Boomer than Repulsors, units with 4++ or other highly armored vehicles.
-2 isn't that great except when target has inv save at which point -3 and -4 are pretty much irrelevant and even -2 is of dubious use. Bigger issue is not that much hits coming in.
tneva82 wrote: warhammer-community.com has all the fa's.
thanks bud.
That reminds me, what units in the ork army would be best for assassinating pesky reroll Space marine captains?
I feel like quite a lot of enemy lords (apparently most except orkish characters) can reroll basically everything, so i figured id try and take them out quickly. hitting them with ranged attacks is probably going to be difficult due to lookout sir rule, but that rule doesnt matter if i can charge him i believe? So is there a unit that can effectively move far and hit well enough to kill a space marine captain character guy, and probably die while being worth it for me? doesnt have to be turn one but that wouldnt be too bad.
I was thinking maybe a few Deffkoptas since they are cheap, Megatrakk scrapjet or even Shokkjump dragstas? I own neither of these units so know little of their effectiveness.
Maybe if he hasnt fully screened out everywhere i can shokkjump 1 or 2 dragstas behind enemy lines, shoot if i can find a place where the captain is my closest target and stratagem jump back to safety again. I dont know.
Any ideas to assassinating characters so i dont need to worry too much about their reroll shinanigans and what not?
tneva82 wrote: warhammer-community.com has all the fa's.
thanks bud.
That reminds me, what units in the ork army would be best for assassinating pesky reroll Space marine captains?
I feel like quite a lot of enemy lords (apparently most except orkish characters) can reroll basically everything, so i figured id try and take them out quickly. hitting them with ranged attacks is probably going to be difficult due to lookout sir rule, but that rule doesnt matter if i can charge him i believe? So is there a unit that can effectively move far and hit well enough to kill a space marine captain character guy, and probably die while being worth it for me? doesnt have to be turn one but that wouldnt be too bad.
I was thinking maybe a few Deffkoptas since they are cheap, Megatrakk scrapjet or even Shokkjump dragstas? I own neither of these units so know little of their effectiveness.
Maybe if he hasnt fully screened out everywhere i can shokkjump 1 or 2 dragstas behind enemy lines, shoot if i can find a place where the captain is my closest target and stratagem jump back to safety again. I dont know.
Any ideas to assassinating characters so i dont need to worry too much about their reroll shinanigans and what not?
Personally I'm fond of the one two punch of a pair of flyers. One burna bomma to use flying headbutt from the front then a Wazbom from behind to finish the job. Most marine level characters should drop to that. Though this is an investment that should be used for lynchpins only.
I used what Cody is describeing. T1 burna eadbutt and park the wazboom next to character and finish him.
In my experience, you have pretty nice chance kill also the landspeeder characters this way (like raven wing bla bla guyz) but don ´ t be surpraised if you miss, few bad rolls and....
It is so crazy move, you have a chance to surprise even pretty advanced player.
Scactha wrote: Strangely enough have both me and AarresaariAarre met the same Necron strategy within a week of each other and discussed it a bit.
What´s your strategy with the list? I had a 1250 game with an assault force that hit him before he could reach the midline. It was delay enough for me to win on Primaries. The crux is to not get swallowed up by his line while also slowing him down. In my case I used terrain to split him into two parts, but that´s not a guarantee.
On the warriors I used a mix of KBB/Buring Highway and Deffkilla/Gork's Roar to weaken them enough for the assault team to stomp them. A crucial part there was the tag-team Defkilla+Nobz Bikes as these could charge T1. Sure the Nobz folded pretty quick, but then the followup Trukk and Manz+Warboss could continue the assault-tarpit action. So my message is to somehow stagger his advance asap. How, could be in a myriad of ways.
Looking at your list I´d send one Trukk full of Boyz forward and Ramming Speed it into their line T1. The BW would follow behind to draw fire and spill out the Warboss+Nobz next. The problem here is that the Nobz aren´t equipped to handle Necron Elite although the Warboss is. I believe they need better melee weapons than Choppas at least. All this is just a delay action so your other Trukk and Dreads can capture objectives and engage the rest of the Necrons. In the meanwhile the Gunwagon uses Visions to suppress and the Tankbustas react to whoever gets through the barrage. The final Boy mob guards the backline from deeping units.
As for changing stuff, maybe lose the 2nd Trukk for 2 Deathkoptas. They are good at capturing objectives and body blocking. Or shift the Weirdboy for the Painboy to go with the BW and keep the Warboss standing longer plus some extra durability to the Nobz.
There´s some ideas
My main problem was probably that I did not go into the game with a clear strategy. I should have gone as far forward turn 1 as possible and focused on taking two or three objectives away from my opponent. The challenge was that he already was on the objectives by 6" pre game move + 6" move + advance, and I didn't have the assault power to take the objectives away from him.
The regular Nobz do not have enough hitting power, and the Boyz can only take on Necron Warriors and similar units.
I think I'll drop a trukk and a deff dread, and add two deffkoptas instead to disrupt objectives. I'll give the Nobz some better melee weapons to improve their killing power and take a few more Boyz on foot. I'm still making up my mind regarding changing the Weirdboy to a painboy, as I'll be down to 1 HQ, so I wont have enough slots for heavy choices (and elite choices for that matter).
Tomsug wrote: Bonde, Scactha is right you have not enought of punch power. Too many chopas. You need more klaws and saws. Or at least big choppas. Look at his list - MANz and pk nob bikers.
Honestly nowaday I have a feeling that boyz are here to die protecting the nob with saw/pk, not to kill something significant.
You are right, I need more hitting power in my list.
Vineheart01 wrote:Only named psyker im aware of is Zogwort, whom we USED to have as a unit but "no model no rules" killed him along with Wazdakka (evilsunz)
Normally i'd say i really wish Zogwort would come back but unless they make Snakebites viable...he wouldnt be used lol. Ever.
He used to have a special ability that basically polymorphed characters. It was almost impossible to go off but MAN was it satisfying when it worked lol
In the end of 4th when the Psyker model and new codex was released that psyker model was Zogwort. https://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Ork-Weirdboy He has a large Z on some trinkets on his model. The John Blanche art in Zogworts profile matched this model as well. It was more than likely GW felt since it stood in as a generic Weirdboy they wouldn't bother make a second profile. Which is dumb as they did that with Prince Yriel, granted that was an additional model to the autarch not a 2-for-1.
Wazdakka was a model back from 2nd ed with an 'Eavy Metal conversion job back in WD in the early 90s. He just kinda existed in 3rd ed as a side-bar (a la
Vineheart01 wrote:yeah anything FW for orks im super skeptical of right now.
100% this. Having been back in 40k since 2003, I would say, FW is buying into a single edition when it's released. Otherwise you just take a huge chance your super expensive model may work. And with 4k on a 3-year cycle I would advise against it. I have a Mega Dread and Meka dread, 4 Grot tanks, Grot Mega Tank and would part with all in a heart beat.
Tomsug wrote: Bonde - I do BOYZ-KNIGHT test to check, wheather my list has a chance.
Do I have a power to kill 30 boyz a turn?
Do I have a power to kill 1 knight a turn?
Twice?
If one of the answers is no, back to the papers.
I do pretty much the same thing, just different targets
My lists (both orks and DG) need to able to get a guaranteed to kill on
1) 1 tank commander or
2) 10 intercessors or
3) 20 genestealers
even when you go second.
The big part is "guaranteed". It's important to understand that killing a mathhammer average of 10 intercessors will not cut it because defensive buffs or one or two bad rolls can set you up for failure.
Tomsug wrote: Bonde - I do BOYZ-KNIGHT test to check, wheather my list has a chance.
Do I have a power to kill 30 boyz a turn?
Do I have a power to kill 1 knight a turn?
Twice?
If one of the answers is no, back to the papers.
Killing one knight IMHO has always been unnecessary. On the other hand killing 30 boyz a turn is too low result, if we're talking about competitive lists. The equivalent of killing a knight should be killing 60 boyz (both 500ish points). Which is also unnecessary. I'm talking about orks lists, other factions may have different priorities.
I typically do the opposite when I do listbuilding: I don't have a body count result per turn in mind, rather I try to figure out what kind of redundancy my units have. How many infantries am I going to lose against an average SMTAC list? How many light vehicles? How many armored vehicles? Things like that. If I expect to lose too many points of stuff for 2 or all three categories I'm not bringing enough redundancy.
Blackie - yeah, 60 boyz should be better, but honestly in my meta, I hardly meet some GEQ or boyz or something, so I underestimate it a little.
But I speak about proof of attack abilities you speak more about defence abilities.
From the defensive point of view, I plan different than you. I spam. All or nothing. Infantry? So just infantry. Vehicles? All vehicles. Of course, there is alway some “except” like 6 SMG in all infantry list, or few trukkboyz and small kommandos now between the buggies and planes. But if he wants to kill me, just antitank works.
Btw. Killing one night even if you go second is always very useful...
How do you define killing something a turn? Does that mean shooting only or also melee? Is it just raw potential or do you consider executional properties too?
Also, apart from spamming KBBs, how do you kill huge amounts of infantry a turn? You can use burning highway only once a turn and take a single Da Boomer, so what else do you use that holds it's value all game and is TAC?
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Jidmah wrote: That's not really a challenge for orks though. A lucky scrapjet can do it one turn
That's what I've been thinking about also. I actually wish I'd meet more C'Tan now before Necron players learn to play them more safely against orks. It only takes 2 slip-through rokkits T1&2, 2cp worth of ramming speed and 3 odd wounds in melee to bring down Nightbringer, which we can do much more cheaply than what the C'Tan cost.
killing a ctan is not really something you plan around. The only armies that will struggle against them are armies that go full force melee or shooty, which arent many.
a Ctan will take 4 phases to kill unless you get lucky and manage to cause 3 damage in 3 phases before his living metal (or other heal for the void dragon) kicks in. Always do overwatch if it charges, as thats a different phase, always have good dakka and choppy units, and of course mortals on the charge doesnt hurt either.
Really only other ctans right now are going to easily kill a ctan, since they can ignore their own rule (NB anyway i dont think the others have that rule). Everyone else just has to not ignore them until its too late, dont omit shooting them "because i cant kill them anyway" - thats the issue people do whenever i field Ghaz lately and its comical that later they wig out at out rude he is.
AarresaariAarre wrote: How do you define killing something a turn? Does that mean shooting only or also melee? Is it just raw potential or do you consider executional properties too?
Mostly shooting, smite or stratagems. I mostly consider melee a utility tool as I have limited control over what I can attack, but you are quite likely to get a charge off on horde units. So from a gut feeling, I consider boyz a viable answer to genestealers but not to a tank commander or 10 marines because they are unlikely to take out a backfield shooting units before it has done serious damage.
Also, apart from spamming KBBs, how do you kill huge amounts of infantry a turn? You can use burning highway only once a turn and take a single Da Boomer, so what else do you use that holds it's value all game and is TAC?
KBB, the scrapjets' big shootas, da boomer, nauts, burna bommer, dreads with stratagem and basically any infantry unit that is not gretchin. Countering light infantry really doesn't need much thought for most ork armies.
You really are just making sure you don't accidentally screw yourself over by taking too much anti-tank.
Honestly I'm not sure if orks can properly do a TAC list. They usually specialize in building Skew lists that are difficult to deal with. That's the issue of the design philosophy of orks. Cheap, lowish quality that you can (in theory) take lots of. GW got the lowish quality part down pat but kind of forgot to give us the cheapness. So we get by with spamming one statline type and hope the enemy runs out of the counter before you run out of the statline type.
The "answer" plan is half the game, the other how to earn points which is often forgotten for mathhammering who and what kills what. I found Nanavati's explanation of his Clown-list really interesting as he said that he´s basically not very interested in fighting. Only positioning to score and hindering the opponent from scoring. It speaks volumes to why he´s such a good player imo.
Please provide links when you are referring to other sources. It's impossible to discuss something otherwise.
Without searching for what Nick has said, I'd bet that his list can answer all of the threats above anyways, and it's also important to understand that unlike orks, harlequins extremely fast and can ignore both terrain and unit blocking. If I wall off parts of the board with MBH and PBC and you don't have the abilty to take out 1-2 LRBT per turn, you are not going to get those primary points. I've gotten quite a few cheap wins with that strategy. A harlequin player will just flipjump over them and take the objective.
In any case, being able to take out the targets which are best at killing your stuff is an essential part of ork survival. You can't just sit on objectives with your entire army and wait for the end - first of all you might run out of orks before T4 and second your opponent might be ahead because of bring it down.
Again, he´s talking about his scoring plan before the fighting plan and will basically fight when needs be, but that´s not the onus of the army. About the details you have to ask Nick himself. Obviously you need to fight, but as Bonde suffered, going into a game without a scoring plan is equally bad if not worse.
I can get behind that. My strategic priority is basically: 1) Can I prevent my opponent from scoring an objective? (Ignore if they would max out anyways) 2) Can I score an additional objective? (even when you are maxed out, only leave objectives unattended when your opponent has no way to get to them) 3) Is there an action I can interrupt/a unit I can kill to prevent my opponent from scoring a secondary 4) Is there something I need to kill/block in order to keep units doing 1 or 2 alive? 5) Is there a unit I need to kill to keep one of mine alive? 6) Is there a unit that can score VP by performing an action/being somewhere? 7) WAAAGH! No, seriously. Charge stuff that won't wipe you as often as possible, it's free movement and reduces enemy shooting.
Obvious these are weighted, not absolute. Safely scoring two objectives is better than taking away one from your opponent under heavy losses.
Jidmah wrote: I can get behind that. My strategic priority is basically:
1) Can I prevent my opponent from scoring an objective? (Ignore if they would max out anyways)
2) Can I score an additional objective? (even when you are maxed out, only leave objectives unattended when your opponent has no way to get to them)
3) Is there an action I can interrupt/a unit I can kill to prevent my opponent from scoring a secondary
4) Is there something I need to kill/block in order to keep units doing 1 or 2 alive?
5) Is there a unit I need to kill to keep one of mine alive?
6) Is there a unit that can score VP by performing an action/being somewhere?
7) WAAAGH! No, seriously. Charge stuff that won't wipe you as often as possible, it's free movement and reduces enemy shooting.
Obvious these are weighted, not absolute. Safely scoring two objectives is better than taking away one from your opponent under heavy losses.
Well written.
It' s important to do all this scoring sheneningas, have a plan how to do them and without it, you can 't win. But you can' t score, if you' re dead. Prevent opponent to score = kill his stuff, that can score. Interrupt action = kill. Hold = kill what can kill you. Well, it' s also about screening and have more models there and ther, but in our army, there is nothing that hold a turn of concentrated fire, so you need to eliminate opponents dakka, or you' re wiped out T2.
These are 2 layers of planning an army and game that need to be in synergy. Old days of pure dakka are over of course! But you need to be brutal to do the kunnin' !
Another ork placement with the goff list, but this time with tankbustaz and stormboyz in place of meganobz
Boyz Nobz have double killsaw (pretty expensive!)
On other side neither Kommandos nor Stormboyz have a klaw.
See - he pass the boy-knight test. Wanna kill knights? Ghaz one turn in cc, Megamek in cc second turn and tankbustas from deepstrike and 3x doublesaw have a chance to kill even the third one! Kunnin but brutal!
Jidmah wrote: TAC refers to what you can kill, "skew" refers to you defensive profile.
The two are not mutually exclusive concepts.
While true I do think that most skew lists will have a shallower pool of tools to deal with any given issue. Unless you luck out and have ork buggies who are diverse enough to have the tools for most issues. To put it another way. An ork buggy list could indeed by a TAC list with plenty of anti tank, anti infantry, mobility and okay durability. But I do think it's an outlier rather than the standard.
But as another example an ork infantry spam list will usually solve it's issues by simply bulling it's way through adversity.
So I generally consider the guys on TableTop titans to be pretty knowledgeable, and Adrian in particular knows orks. They posit that boyz need to be more killy. What would you guys change about boyz to achieve that?
Jidmah wrote: Not really. Successful infantry lists always had the means to kill all sorts of targets through lootas, tank bustas, mek guns or warbosses.
Exactly. Check the greentide lists from last few month on goonhammer or wherever. They always hve some “iron punch”
Thanks for the answers folks! Reading all your insights gives great depth to this army. I've got one more question:
With a little brief, I've now won 4 of my last 5 games with buggy/transport heavy Evils Sunz, but I'm feeling a bit dissatisfied with all of them. The problem seems to be that I need to rely too much on not rolling under average during the mid-game turns where I've not gained enough of a lead due to bleeding killy secondaries. I tend to struggle the most at T1, where it always seems hard to decide whether to pile on the mid-table objectives or pressure the opponent to his deployment zone. I usually turn towards the latter due to my speed and fear of loosing too much units to shooting (and not having LoS with my own shooty units), but that tends to leave my lines too thin to guarantee the majority of objectives surviving to T2. In fact, I think I've yet to score 15 vp T2 on any of my games.
So my question is that on which time window do you usually max or even peak your primary points? If it's early on, how do you prioritize which units go for the pressure and which stay to die on the objectives?
Hello guys,
I'm moving to 40k form KillTeam. First I'll be playing Patrol Size Games.
And quick question. Is a Gitstoppa Shells and Kombi-Scorcha solid option or just a gimmick (assuming 500 pts game).
ninjaska wrote: Hello guys,
I'm moving to 40k form KillTeam. First I'll be playing Patrol Size Games.
And quick question. Is a Gitstoppa Shells and Kombi-Scorcha solid option or just a gimmick (assuming 500 pts game).
The shells don't apply to the skorcha part, so the relic is mostly useless - even with a kustom shoota, you have a decent chance to never hit once during a game.
AarresaariAarre wrote: So my question is that on which time window do you usually max or even peak your primary points? If it's early on, how do you prioritize which units go for the pressure and which stay to die on the objectives?
For me it's not rare to max out as late as T4 or 5. Orks don't have the staying power to hold a heavily contested objective, it's much more important to block movement, deny scoring and take away options. An old piece of MtG wisdom is that disrupting your opponent's plans is always a more powerful tool than accelerating your own plans.
Billagio wrote: So I generally consider the guys on TableTop titans to be pretty knowledgeable, and Adrian in particular knows orks. They posit that boyz need to be more killy. What would you guys change about boyz to achieve that?
Oooh! Depends on how many points you want to pay for it :-)
+1 A to all shooty weapons would not hurt. So Shootas go to 3A, Sluggas go to 2A etc. Nor would making Skar Boyz a data sheet be OTT.
Wild Boyz as a Troops choice, but with Choppa or Big Choppa only would give more options to a Codex.
Billagio wrote: So I generally consider the guys on TableTop titans to be pretty knowledgeable, and Adrian in particular knows orks. They posit that boyz need to be more killy. What would you guys change about boyz to achieve that?
There are a few things that could work. Make PK's a weapon to be feared again (getting rid of -1 to hit or making it flat 2 or 3 D), make choppa's -1 AP (I'm not sure that giving them -1 AP would be healthy for the game overall), or let boyz attack again if anything falls back from them. I would go with buffing PK's since that is a change that would buff multiple units that need it.
Honestly, boys might be "good enough" with two simple changes:
1) Choppas have AP-1. (Big Choppas go to AP-2 as well).
2) Engagement range for Boys is larger, so they can fight in more ranks.
This whole nonsense people often spout is "Well, 30 boys gets 150 attacks, that's OP", when it never happens due to not being able to get your boys into CC. Make that easy, and all of a sudden boys might do fine.
I always figured that -1 AP would be a fair thing to have. sure you can have 30 boys but you cant ever really hit with all 30 boys and if you can, there probably isnt enough cover on the battle map you use.
Orks dies like flies, and Orks dont have durbility, but they should have great offensive abilities in return. Which i feel like they do in general, but boys only really feel like a menacing force when they are given Skarboyz. But if they were given str 5 to begin with, that would put nobz on str 6 and Mega Nobz too, which i feel like spirals things out of control.
But Boyz at -1 AP seems fair for melee. Im not sure what to do about ranged attacks. probably give shootas 3 attacks? Big shootas 4?
tulun wrote: Honestly, boys might be "good enough" with two simple changes:
1) Choppas have AP-1. (Big Choppas go to AP-2 as well).
2) Engagement range for Boys is larger, so they can fight in more ranks.
This whole nonsense people often spout is "Well, 30 boys gets 150 attacks, that's OP", when it never happens due to not being able to get your boys into CC. Make that easy, and all of a sudden boys might do fine.
I like your last idea too as having 30 boyz only really increases their durbility, not their offensive capabilities in your turn as all 30 will never be able to reach anyway. You could argue by surviving better, that also adds offensive power in the end but.. yea thats not where im going. Staying power sure is important and bodies gives that, but with very little power to fight back at a distance, especially if you went for slugga boyz, then they could at least do melee better than what they do.
Or maybe remove the 9th edition coherency rules for ork boyz so they can reach targets more easily. Its not like Orks fight in dedicated armies with file and rank anyway. They are more like a big mob of rioters who are gathered by their shared love for burning things. Something, at least, that makes Boyz able to actually reach an enemy and attack with their full force easier than what it is now.
Also, for the love of god, reduce the amount of points for Grots.
i like the idea of increasing the combat reach for boyz.
The few times ive gotten the majority of the squad to swing its...quite brutal. But realistically its around a dozen that fight.
Jidmah wrote: My favorite solution would be giving PKs flat 3 damage to bring back the hidden klaw. It would fix so many issues boyz and other units have right now.
It kind of doesn't, though. With only 3-4 attacks, it kind of still incentives you just to take min squads anyway, which is why trukk boys hit about as hard as 30 boys, as depressing as that is.
And the hidden Kill Saw sort of achieves this anyway, and boys still suck donkey balls.
Boys need a power boost, or they need to get cheaper. If they are supposed to be "scary", make em scary, or so cheap I don't care they suck.
I feel like the PK does deserve to be flat 3 damage, if only because then it makes taking Warbosses with them potentially feasible without always having to resort to the Killa Klaw to make them useful. It also makes Nobz/Meganobz squads in general more useful.
I do agree boyz themselves need some extra oomph, especially in a post primaris world. The main problem is that weight of attacks just isn't enough anymore, especially with how limited our attack range is. So either we make it easier for our attacks to get through (AP -1 as mentioned) or something where we add the caveat that attacks made with choppas give +1 to wound against non-vehicle and non-monster units when the unit equipped with them charged, were charged or heroically intervened.
This makes it so you still need to rely on the Nob or other Ork specialist units to deal with the hard targets like vehicles/monsters, but boyz can actually do the job for taking down regular and elite infantry.
Well we live in an era in which chainswords are AP-1 or even AP-2 from turn 3, bolters are AP-1 in turn 2 and primaris bolters are always AP-1 or AP-2 in turn 2, infantries are getting tougher, etc...
So it would make sense to get -1AP on basically ALL our weapons. In particular boyz, bikes, lootas, killkannon and big shootas need the AP boost. Maybe rokkits. I wouldn't increase damage though. It's just annoying when you roll hundreds of dice and achieve very little because enemies pass most of their saves: 70 dice from a 10man squad of bikes that costs 270 points kill 10 guardsmen (50 points) or 2 intercessor (40 points).
Regarding Klaws, what to do re: PKs and Killsaws in light of the Power Fist changes is a bit of a puzzle. Obviously point changes are in order but I'd really like to see them avoid the same situation we're currently in where there's no reason for anything with the option to take a Killsaw over a PK to do so, or vice versa.
Killsaws should follow the Lightning claw route, where each one gives an extra attack, though I wonder if it should go down in AP to compensate for the extra attacks it would generate. As mentioned previously, Power Klaws would go up to flat 3 damage. So Killsaws will be one of the go to weapons for handling elite infantry with the flat 2 damage, while the power klaws handle bigger targets or 3W block guys.
Jidmah wrote: Well, it's likely that killsaws turn into chainfists, which are d3 damage and flat 3 vs vehicles.
In all likeliness, I think this is probably true, though personally given that we have a general lack of CC weapon diversity compared to Imperials, I'd prefer if our weapons were a little more different, hence my desire for what I mentioned earlier.
Hey guys, finally am wrapping up my Krieg at 5k and looking at doing Goff Orks with Ghaz. Been reading through here a bit and got a good basis as what appears to be things for sure to bring:
However besides this I was actually wanting to know what would the viability mean for a unit of x30 Skarboyz? Thinking of pairing them with a weirdboy so they can jump anywhere on the table.
gmaleron wrote: Hey guys, finally am wrapping up my Krieg at 5k and looking at doing Goff Orks with Ghaz. Been reading through here a bit and got a good basis as what appears to be things for sure to bring:
However besides this I was actually wanting to know what would the viability mean for a unit of x30 Skarboyz? Thinking of pairing them with a weirdboy so they can jump anywhere on the table.
Keep in mind that Ghaz lists are predominantly green tide oriented. So for the Skarboyz heavy lists, Ghaz is the main contributor to them getting into the competitive realm with his aura and rerolls. He's combo'd with a Big Mek in MA with KFF equipped with the Killa Klaw and with the Follow Me Ladz! Warlord trait to act as another warboss bubble on top of Ghaz's. Painboy is there to help the boyz blobs but keep him near Ghaz so he can heal him each turn with the Medi-Squig strat.
gmaleron wrote: That's good to know though my wallet is crying a bit thinking of a minimum of x90 Boyz, was going to use Nobs to be my Skarboyz to.
Unfortunately, that is the nature of Ork lists. You either go all in on a theme or you don't bother.
I know flyers aren't that relevant in this edition give how important board control is at the moment, but besides the burna bommer for the kamikaze strat, are the other ones even worth looking at? The dakkajet can be a decent character sniper given how they can zoom behind characters given that LoS is much more limited compared to before. The blitza bommer seems to remain inferior to the burna bommer even with their SotB strat, so I don't think they have much value. Is the wazbom blastajet worth taking at all? If so, I'm guessing the KMK are better than the tellyporta blastas? They do also give a large KFF range for their base T1, though I'm not sure if it has any value past a buggy list since they're the only ones that can keep up.
There was interesting and succesful list with 2x wazboom and 2x burna aprox month ago.
I run flyiers a lot and they are fine. Blitz is useless. Dakkajet used to be fine to clear the screens, especially like Bad Moon, but I don' t use it any more now because Burna is better.
Wazboom with KFF and KMK is very good IMHO. You can hide under his KFF most of the army and has a firepower of aprox 3 SMG witch is decent.
Why use it (or flyiers generaly) - people tend to shooot at them in T1 and they are pretty tought. Usually opponents have a big problem to take 2 down a turn. Some short range unluckers are not able to kill a sigle jet a turn.
So reaon 1 - very decent T1 anti tank fire absorber. But take alway 2 yets at least. One will survive and do .....
..... Reason 2 - you move over the board whereever you want with firepower able to tear down rhino, whirlwind/manticora or thunderfirecannon, beefy character a turn. They can' t hide. You can kill units, hard to kill another way because of hiding out of LOS / out of range, or finish damaged units hiding behind the corner. As said last week - disrupting opponent plans could be much better than appliing your plans
Reason 3 - Any plane (but Burna is the best) can do massive mortal wound storm on crowd of characters and their screen vie Eadbutt - this makes you opponents deploy and move them less efective or suffer masive damage.
I run 2 wazbooms or wazboom+burna and my plan is to try 2xWazboom and 2xBurna.
Whole EedButt game is funny but has a serious problem. One eadbutt is not enought. You just scratch the paint. You don' t finish the job. You need to do it twice at least. So you need to have anought flyiers to Eadbut in T1 and T2. And because they will be the target number one, you need 2 flyiers to soak enemy fire and 2 of them to eadbutt = 2x wazboom and 2x burna.
The fact is, that if you put 4 jets on the table, the rest of you army is pretty safe. Nobody fire at them for first 2 turns.
And if you finish 6MW per unit storm in enemy main group of units on beginning of T2, you win the game, because what lefts? All characters are 4-6 wounds. Eridicators etc are unit of 3 per 3W. Even tanks are on half and start to be broken.
On one tournament, one Ultramarin player underestimated my wazboom and Dakkajet (Not even Burna!!) and let me to eadbutt them in his marching castle with bunch of auras etc. I went first and he was de-facto tablet T2 with wounded gulimen, some apothecar and half of tactical squad left on the table. Bad luck on his side and very bad played by him, but shows the power of concentrated Eadbutting.
Billagio wrote: So I generally consider the guys on TableTop titans to be pretty knowledgeable, and Adrian in particular knows orks. They posit that boyz need to be more killy. What would you guys change about boyz to achieve that?
I see it as 3 distinct issues. 1: Ork boyz lack dakka of any kinda that is worth mentioning. if you somehow get all 30 shoota boyz into range you are likely only killing 2 Tac Marines on average. The easy solution would be to make Shootas either Assault 3 or possibly even assault 4. The 18' range really hampers them, especially in an edition where Intercessors and HI are troop choices with ranged 30 weapons.
2: Ork boyz lack damage in CC thanks to everyone getting toughness increases. A shoota boy in CC does .22 dmg to a Tac Space Marine. In order to kill him you will need upwards of 9 shoota boyz. The Choppa boyz need 6 boyz to kill 1 Tac Marine. So before any points increases happen (And you know they will if we get buffs) You are looking at 48pts of Choppa boyz finally getting into CC to kill 18pts of Tac Marine, or 72pts of Shoota boyz. Giving Choppas +1 Strength and -1AP would go a long way towards making Choppa boyz good in CC again. And before anyone jumps on me saying "YOU'VE GONE TOO FAR!" remember, Choppa boyz have to be alive to use those CC attacks, and that isn't an easy feat when Aggressors were "nerfed" to only dump out 1 shot per 3.33 points compared to a Tac Marine putting out 1 shot per 9points. (lets not talk about their powerfists). A Single Choppa boy does .33 dmg to a SM right now. If you gave him +1 Strength and -1AP it becomes .66dmg, so it still takes 4 Choppa boyz to guarantee 1 dead SM a turn.
And finally 3: Ork boyz die far too quickly right now for what little damage they can pump out. So the question becomes if GW gives them the above buffs to DMG output, should they stay the same? and if they don't, what would be a good durability boost to make them worth taking in quantity. Honestly, I don't like the 2nd wound mechanic for boyz, especially with how little faith I have in GW correctly pricing them. SM got a 2nd wound for 3ppm or 20% increase in price, For orkz, a 20% increase would be 1-2pts, I don't see that happening, I think it more likely they would do 3+ maybe even as high as 5pts extra. Regardless, I think the better buff for Ork boyz would be an increase to T5 and maybe giving them 5+ armor which actually lets them get an armor save occasionally against things like Bolt rifles or run of the mill bolters during tac doctrine turn.
What I don't want to see is all of the above happening because I can't imagine GW letting Ork boyz have that kind of damage potential and durability without going up to at least 12-15ppm.
AarresaariAarre wrote: Thanks for the answers folks! Reading all your insights gives great depth to this army. I've got one more question:
With a little brief, I've now won 4 of my last 5 games with buggy/transport heavy Evils Sunz, but I'm feeling a bit dissatisfied with all of them. The problem seems to be that I need to rely too much on not rolling under average during the mid-game turns where I've not gained enough of a lead due to bleeding killy secondaries. I tend to struggle the most at T1, where it always seems hard to decide whether to pile on the mid-table objectives or pressure the opponent to his deployment zone. I usually turn towards the latter due to my speed and fear of loosing too much units to shooting (and not having LoS with my own shooty units), but that tends to leave my lines too thin to guarantee the majority of objectives surviving to T2. In fact, I think I've yet to score 15 vp T2 on any of my games.
So my question is that on which time window do you usually max or even peak your primary points? If it's early on, how do you prioritize which units go for the pressure and which stay to die on the objectives?
- Aarre, what does your list look like? I have been trying out an Evil Sunz mechanized list, but it has not worked out for me. I am thinking that Deathskulls might be the better Kultur:
I'm thinking of running something along the lines of:
The plan is to have both Bonebreakas (with 5+ Invuln) drive up into the face of the opponent and assault forward units, supported by the Wartrike, so that the opponent has to deal with the the hardest targets first.
In the meantime the Scrapjets and DeffDreads go to block off objectives while the Trukk Boyz capture the points. If the Bonebreakas or Trukk Boyz get assaulted, then the Dreads and Scrapjets will act as counter-charge units.
I don't really see a reason to run four units of minimal troops. I would cut the fourth boyz unit and maybe the warbikers to have unit of MANz ride your forktress.
I think there are lots of things they could do to Orks that would make them a well rounded codex suited for 9th edition, but its whether we can trust GW to do it which they havent had a great track record when it comes to our army in general.
First off id like to see stratagems starting to be baked into units that correspond with them. We have started to see that with SM with Duty Eternal and CP upgrades being moved to units (Veteran Intercessors) and upgrades to pre-existing models like Chapter Master, Master of Sancity and Chief Apothecary. For example; Dreaded Death Machine. Have that included into the Deff Dreads datasheet. Same could be said with Mob Up, it literally only affects Boyz now so why not just add it to the datasheet?
Next I'd like to see a boost to survival. Orks are a resilient and tough species but it doesnt exactly show apart from T4. There should be a stratagem that is for Nobz and Warbosses that give them either a Transhuman like rule or -1 damage to reflect how tough they actually are. This rule is becoming more apparent in these later codexes. Quantum Shielding, Inner Circle for Deathwing Infantry, a strat for Primaris and Custodes. I dont think it would break Meganobz if all of a sudden they have access to this strat. They arent exactly brickwalls when there are plasma weapons with flat 2/3 damage and other weapons that have seen a boost in output.
On to army special rules, its probably only me that wants this but I would like an overhaul to some degree. GW just cant seem to get rules that are pretty much identical fair. And thats exploding attacks. Some armies have either 6s gen another hit, other gen another hit roll and others like Death to the False Emperor that allows weapons like the Deathguards flail to gen an additional D3 attacks..... Id like to see DDD get changed to 6s explode into additonal hits. Ive lost count how many times DDD has done nothing for me and thats not even going into how the core rules has unmodified 6s always hit. Would you think its too strong? I dont think so. You hear all the time how Orks just throw buckets of dice with shooting but I dont think thats true anymore. So many armies just out shoot us in terms of sheer volume of shots, and accurate shots at that.
Next I would like to see Waaagh! reworked. I know this is a big one! But I would like it to be something that builds up and has momentum like with Orruk Warclans and their Big Waaagh! but obviously tweaked for 40k instead of AoS. It seems like a trend that armies are going to get some sort of turn based benefit. We have seen it with Space Marines with Doctrines, Necrons with Command Protocols and some extent Grey Knights with their tides. Now im not saying we should loose advance and charge, but as it stands, to me the current iteration of Waaagh! doesnt make me feel like its anything close to the lore. I havent shouted Waaagh! for my Orks for a long time as to me it no longer feels like we actually have one.
The Ork Waaagh! should effect different units in different ways. What do Lootas get out of it? What about Flash Gitz? Our planes? Its like it doesnt exist for them at all.
On to wargear. This is a tricky one I think. Add too much AP or Damage and we will see units skyrocket in points. One for sure I'd like to see improved is our shootas of all kinds. The Big Shoota just doesnt do anything, its one of our iconic weapons and it might aswell be a glorified Heavy Stubber. It doesnt have the number of shots or the stopping power to even be worth adding to units that can take them unless they are forced too like our Buggies. But this largely applies to all our shoota weapons, from Supa to Deffstorm to your standard Boyz gun. They just dont hit hard at all. This moves on to our close combat weapons. Imperials and mainly Space Marines have just seen a huge boost in their melee weapons. AP1 chainswords for SM, +1 str across the line for all power weapons, better close combat weapon profiles on Dreadnoughts. We just dont hit hard enough in Shooting and Melee with an exception to a few good units.
I would actually like to see our Boyz get split up into different units: Shootas, Sluggas, Stikk-bommerz, 'Ard Boyz, Skar Boyz and Trukk Boyz. Each one getting a benefit for their specialisation or just not being forced to be a CP investment to actually get. And please for the love of Gork and Mork give 'Ard Boyz their 4+ save back, 2CP for +1 save is pretty damn bad.
Lastly Clan kulturs. They need a huge revamp. Why don't Snakebites work with Painboyz? Bad Moons dont really shoot all that great. Blood Axes just arent good period and Goffs have a pretty damn awful trait. Look at other melee Chapter Tactics out there..... puts Goffs to shame. Just imagine if Goffs had the +1 to wound like Blood Angels or +1 to hit like Space Wolves.
I could carry on with other changes but we would be here all day and this post is already huge haha!
The jist of the message is that I hope GW go above and beyond just stat line tweaks. I want the army to have meaningful and thematic rules. I want Orks to actually be threatening. We arent a cheap horde army like people expect us to be, and we dont have the quality of firepower or staying power our costing implies.
Faction-wide 6+ FNP would be a waste of everyone's time and not fix anything. Having pox walkers shot by battlecannons or similar weapons takes an insane amount of time to properly resolve, and they actually have decent chance of surviving multi-damage weapons.
Id rather go away from abilities that proc on 6s. As Jidmah has stated, it really slows down the game and in my personal experience 6+++ is way to swingy. You have matches where it rarely pops up and matches where you just get super luck and absorb more damage then you should have. Making Nobz more like Abberants with the -1 damage would be cool and thematic, but for Boyz I have no idea how youd make them more durable. +1 save wouldnt do much for them in a Marine dominate era. +1 wound would be idea but they would get too expensive and I cant see them getting +1 toughness either.
Agreed that 6+ proc abilities are generally something you don't want to stack too much of, especially when it comes to saves. I feel like for Ork boyz at least, the durability can only really come in 3 ways.
1. An extra wound. The problem is that this would inflate the price and be of dubious use given the 2W marine meta means a lot of weapons still do a lot of damage to our boyz units.
2. Be cheaper. I find this one unlikely given that GW's current design paradigm is to avoid promoting cheap hordes (even if exceptions to the rule keep popping up).
3. Higher saves. 'Ard boy saves of 4+ would have to be an option again and likely only through a separate datasheet or as a point upgrade since it makes no sense as a strat. Again, of questionable use since a KFF offers pretty much the same, if not superior, protection with how much AP-1 and AP-2 weapons are being thrown around.
I feel like support units should be what helps the durability of boyz IMO, who should instead be made more effective in offense, since it's really their damage output that makes you disappointed when they finally hit enemy lines. Whether that means Painboyz give a 5+ FNP instead, or if we get strats that are closer in line with whirling onslaught for Skorpekh destroyers, I think that's a better call than trying to make a unit that's largely meant to be spammed to be overly durable.
Because its not sold on forge world nor Games workshop (at least i cant find it).
I can find a Battlewagon with a supa Kannon (which in my humble opinion, would sound like a gun wagon) but its still classified as a battlewagon on wahapedia.
So what exactly is a gunwagon and where is the model? Is it just a battlewagon that only has a kannon equipped and nothing else?
Also what is a "Bonebreaka" model when all other battlewagons can also take the Deff Rolla (and deff Rolla models are called bonebreakas?)??
I own none of these battlewagon models, and im super confused as to how they work and are classified.
What if i use a battlewagon with a kannon and a Deff Rolla, am i using the Bonebreaka or the Gunwagon?
Also for the Meka Dread i can only see statistics for the Rippa Klaw, yet Forge world sells a Mega saw as well? what characteristics does that have?
Orks have the tools they are just all over the place.
Goff orks have they auras to make melee stronger
Str 5 skar boyz
Reroll hit of 1- ghaz
+1 to hit in melee- waagh banner
Exploding 6- goff
Exploding 5-6- strat
+1 atk w 20+ boyz
Add in 6+ fnp painboy And 5+ invul Big Mek Kff And the biggest durability strat- green tide
All the above makes for a decent melee horde with enough durability and accuracy that even a bunch of str 5 hits with no ap becomes an issue...
The issue is all that stuff is expensive and costly in terms of points and strats just to make our core units decent at doing what they are supposed to. In other words some of this mercs to be rolled into the unit or clan.
What I really would love to see if the goff rocket made match play legal... but that requires to remake the model...
Battlewagon / Gunwagon / Bonebreaker - no extra model. Take Battlewagon with deffrolla and you CAN call it bonebreaker. Take Battlewagon with kannon and you CAN call it Gunwagon
Because its not sold on forge world nor Games workshop (at least i cant find it).
I can find a Battlewagon with a supa Kannon (which in my humble opinion, would sound like a gun wagon) but its still classified as a battlewagon on wahapedia.
So what exactly is a gunwagon and where is the model? Is it just a battlewagon that only has a kannon equipped and nothing else?
Also what is a "Bonebreaka" model when all other battlewagons can also take the Deff Rolla (and deff Rolla models are called bonebreakas?)??
I own none of these battlewagon models, and im super confused as to how they work and are classified.
What if i use a battlewagon with a kannon and a Deff Rolla, am i using the Bonebreaka or the Gunwagon?
Do you have the Ork codex? It's unclear since it seems you don't have a lot of the basic information that should be evident in the book.
Basically the battlewagon model has 3 distinct datasheets for it. The basic one is the one where you can basically take whatever you want on it, with no special rules or pre-built equipment. The bonebreaka, however, is another distinct datasheet where it comes base with the deffrolla and ard case (you CAN'T opt out of it) and also is more expensive baseline in terms of points. Furthermore, it has a special rule unique to its datasheet that gives it the extra D6 attacks on the charge.
Similarly, the Gunwagon comes base with a kannon and ard case. It uniquely has the periscope equipment/special rule that lets them shoot their main gun twice if they move under half-movement.
Basically, the reason why GW split them into 3 different datasheets despite having the same base model is so you can have a battlewagon centric army without having to deal with the rule of 3. It's also a way for them to specialize them into shooting/close combat roles while making sure you pay for the difference.
Because its not sold on forge world nor Games workshop (at least i cant find it).
I can find a Battlewagon with a supa Kannon (which in my humble opinion, would sound like a gun wagon) but its still classified as a battlewagon on wahapedia.
So what exactly is a gunwagon and where is the model? Is it just a battlewagon that only has a kannon equipped and nothing else?
Also what is a "Bonebreaka" model when all other battlewagons can also take the Deff Rolla (and deff Rolla models are called bonebreakas?)??
I own none of these battlewagon models, and im super confused as to how they work and are classified.
What if i use a battlewagon with a kannon and a Deff Rolla, am i using the Bonebreaka or the Gunwagon?
Do you have the Ork codex? It's unclear since it seems you don't have a lot of the basic information that should be evident in the book.
Basically the battlewagon model has 3 distinct datasheets for it. The basic one is the one where you can basically take whatever you want on it, with no special rules or pre-built equipment. The bonebreaka, however, is another distinct datasheet where it comes base with the deffrolla and ard case (you CAN'T opt out of it) and also is more expensive baseline in terms of points. Furthermore, it has a special rule unique to its datasheet that gives it the extra D6 attacks on the charge.
Similarly, the Gunwagon comes base with a kannon and ard case. It uniquely has the periscope equipment/special rule that lets them shoot their main gun twice if they move under half-movement.
Basically, the reason why GW split them into 3 different datasheets despite having the same base model is so you can have a battlewagon centric army without having to deal with the rule of 3. It's also a way for them to specialize them into shooting/close combat roles while making sure you pay for the difference.
I have the codex but its not exactly that easy to decipher these things.
For starter the codex i have, from 8th edition does not state that the Bonebreaka datasheet comes with Ard' case? it comes with Explodes, Bonebreaka Ram, and Mobile Fortress.
Furthermore the Gunwagon also doesnt state that it comes with Ard' Case on my codex.
The only version of the battlewagon i can see that comes with Ard case is.. well the actual battlewagon datasheet, and the Battlewagon with Supa-Kannon.
So i dont know what you mean that i can find this info in the codex. i sure cant find it when i look at my data sheets.
If I am to understand my own Codex, if i want to use the Gunwagon with a kill kannon and get the periscope, i do NOT have the opportunity to get Ard case, but if i wanna use the battlewagon datasheet with a kill kannon, then i CANT use the periscope ability, but i CAN use ard' case.
So in this case, i dont think its a "Basic question". you have 3 (4 with supa cannon, 5 with Lifta cannon) different datasheet versions of the same unit that can effectively use many of the same weapons and overlap in roles, so how that actually works and what you are legally allowed to do, is not a basic question either.
i feel like its a good question for newer people (like me) as it clarifies a few things.
Jidmah wrote: I don't really see a reason to run four units of minimal troops. I would cut the fourth boyz unit and maybe the warbikers to have unit of MANz ride your forktress.
Good point, that would also give me more killing power and an additional obsec unit to capture contested objectives with. But does the Wartrike then have enough fast bodies to hide behind? I intended the bikers as extra wounds, but I guess it can also hide behind any other vehicles?
Regarding the meka dread killsaw
Just wait til next week when the forgeworld codex drops...
Also ghaz is on sale separately I can Finally stop using old ghaz model...
I think orks and guard are the 2 biggest benefactors from the forgeworld book maybe space
Marines but a lot of thier stuff is just lord of wars.
gungo wrote: Regarding the meka dread killsaw
Just wait til next week when the forgeworld codex drops...
Also ghaz is on sale separately I can Finally stop using old ghaz model...
I think orks and guard are the 2 biggest benefactors from the forgeworld book maybe space
Marines but a lot of thier stuff is just lord of wars.
The new codex comes out in next week for forgeworld? oh nice.
I also have Ghaz though. does he also arrive next week?
Because its not sold on forge world nor Games workshop (at least i cant find it).
I can find a Battlewagon with a supa Kannon (which in my humble opinion, would sound like a gun wagon) but its still classified as a battlewagon on wahapedia.
So what exactly is a gunwagon and where is the model? Is it just a battlewagon that only has a kannon equipped and nothing else?
Also what is a "Bonebreaka" model when all other battlewagons can also take the Deff Rolla (and deff Rolla models are called bonebreakas?)??
I own none of these battlewagon models, and im super confused as to how they work and are classified.
What if i use a battlewagon with a kannon and a Deff Rolla, am i using the Bonebreaka or the Gunwagon?
Do you have the Ork codex? It's unclear since it seems you don't have a lot of the basic information that should be evident in the book.
Basically the battlewagon model has 3 distinct datasheets for it. The basic one is the one where you can basically take whatever you want on it, with no special rules or pre-built equipment. The bonebreaka, however, is another distinct datasheet where it comes base with the deffrolla and ard case (you CAN'T opt out of it) and also is more expensive baseline in terms of points. Furthermore, it has a special rule unique to its datasheet that gives it the extra D6 attacks on the charge.
Similarly, the Gunwagon comes base with a kannon and ard case. It uniquely has the periscope equipment/special rule that lets them shoot their main gun twice if they move under half-movement.
Basically, the reason why GW split them into 3 different datasheets despite having the same base model is so you can have a battlewagon centric army without having to deal with the rule of 3. It's also a way for them to specialize them into shooting/close combat roles while making sure you pay for the difference.
I have the codex but its not exactly that easy to decipher these things.
For starter the codex i have, from 8th edition does not state that the Bonebreaka datasheet comes with Ard' case? it comes with Explodes, Bonebreaka Ram, and Mobile Fortress.
Furthermore the Gunwagon also doesnt state that it comes with Ard' Case on my codex.
The only version of the battlewagon i can see that comes with Ard case is.. well the actual battlewagon datasheet, and the Battlewagon with Supa-Kannon.
So i dont know what you mean that i can find this info in the codex. i sure cant find it when i look at my data sheets.
If I am to understand my own Codex, if i want to use the Gunwagon with a kill kannon and get the periscope, i do NOT have the opportunity to get Ard case, but if i wanna use the battlewagon datasheet with a kill kannon, then i CANT use the periscope ability, but i CAN use ard' case.
So in this case, i dont think its a "Basic question". you have 3 (4 with supa cannon, 5 with Lifta cannon) different datasheet versions of the same unit that can effectively use many of the same weapons and overlap in roles, so how that actually works and what you are legally allowed to do, is not a basic question either.
i feel like its a good question for newer people (like me) as it clarifies a few things.
The reason why I say that both the bonebreaka and the gunwagon have the ard case base even if its not explicitly stated is because both only have a transport capacity of 12 and lack open topped while being T8. All of which occurs for regular battlewagons only after you opt for the 'ard case. So you should remember that since ranged units will never be able to shoot out of a bonebreaka or gunwagon.
And I sort of understand the confusion regarding the different datasheets using one model, but it is a big part of 8th-9th edition unit trend that you see across several armies, particularly Space Marines, so you may want to look at how datasheets work in general and the core rules more thoroughly first.
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gungo wrote: Regarding the meka dread killsaw
Just wait til next week when the forgeworld codex drops...
Also ghaz is on sale separately I can Finally stop using old ghaz model...
I think orks and guard are the 2 biggest benefactors from the forgeworld book maybe space
Marines but a lot of thier stuff is just lord of wars.
I just hope they give the mega dread T8 and more base attacks, or at least options similar to what the Gorkanaut/Morkanaut have. Even just making the Ramshackle Monstrosity rule be a super version of regular Ramshackle where it reduces damage to 1 on a 5+ would be better than what it is now.
Im sitting here thinking about buying a Meka Dread (sadly the Meka dread body is out of stock, and i like that more than the Mega dread body) and the only thing that stops me from wanting to buy it now is because you guys say the new forge world books comes out next week.
So ill wait with it.
But the model looks absolutely beastly. the Mega Charge ability looks pretty cool too, if combined with a deffkilla wartrike guy for turn 1 charge.
I wonder if you can reroll the Mega Charge if you roll a 1? Not sure, since i misplaced my core rules 2020 book in my friendly game store today.
Regardless, i will definitly get a Meka-Dread some day.
Preorder Friday for forgeworld book, Saturday for ghaz (i believe)
Generally leaks start coming out after preorder.. so we should find out some datasheets soon enough... to be fair this book really just is the krieg codex :p with some stuff for others...
Preorder Friday for forgeworld book, Saturday for ghaz (i believe)
Generally leaks start coming out after preorder.. so we should find out some datasheets soon enough... to be fair this book really just is the krieg codex :p with some stuff for others...
Excited to see the Warboss on Bike datasheet.....
Maybe making KFF affect units not models would be a good step in helping boyz
cody.d. wrote: Oh gak yeah that's a good point. Finally getting a look at the biker boss sheet. Will he have the warboss keyword for access to biggest boss?
I hope so, because otherwise he's going to be missing out on a lot of what he used to be able to do. I'm more concerned that he'll be stuck with a killsaw or some unique wargear like Deffkilla Wartrike and not be able to take the Killa Klaw.
Jidmah wrote: I don't really see a reason to run four units of minimal troops. I would cut the fourth boyz unit and maybe the warbikers to have unit of MANz ride your forktress.
Good point, that would also give me more killing power and an additional obsec unit to capture contested objectives with. But does the Wartrike then have enough fast bodies to hide behind? I intended the bikers as extra wounds, but I guess it can also hide behind any other vehicles?
The bikes are not going to hide the trike though - a single casualty and there is no more Look out sir.
Jidmah wrote: I don't really see a reason to run four units of minimal troops. I would cut the fourth boyz unit and maybe the warbikers to have unit of MANz ride your forktress.
Good point, that would also give me more killing power and an additional obsec unit to capture contested objectives with. But does the Wartrike then have enough fast bodies to hide behind? I intended the bikers as extra wounds, but I guess it can also hide behind any other vehicles?
The bikes are not going to hide the trike though - a single casualty and there is no more Look out sir.
Oh you are right! I completely forgot the "3 models in a unit" part. Then they are indeed a waste of points in that list.
cody.d. wrote: Oh gak yeah that's a good point. Finally getting a look at the biker boss sheet. Will he have the warboss keyword for access to biggest boss?
I hope so, because otherwise he's going to be missing out on a lot of what he used to be able to do. I'm more concerned that he'll be stuck with a killsaw or some unique wargear like Deffkilla Wartrike and not be able to take the Killa Klaw.
Even if he can't take the klaw, it's not that bad. Unlike in 8th, having your warlord die rarely - if ever - gives up VP, so giving him the Burtal, but kunnin' trait usually is equivalent to the killaklaw. The one thing I'm really worried about is him losing the Waaagh! for bikers again.
I have this idea for secondary I haven´t tested, but wanted to theorize around and develop. It´s based on Warpcraft - Psychic Ritual.
Psychic Ritual says "One Psyker Character unit from your army can attempt to perform this psychic action in your Psychic phase if it is within 6" of the centre of the battlefield."
If you manage this 3 times during a battle it´s 15 VP.
So, we need to get the ritual started T1 to maximize chances of getting 3 through during the battle. The good news is that it happens during our turn, meaning we have control over moving a Weirdboy to the right spot.
My current solution to this is twofold:
A Patrol with a Blood Axe Weirdboy who Dead Sneaky's to the centre. That´s the T1 ritual.
Next part is another Weirdboy riding with a 'Ard case Forktress BW filled with Warboss+Painboy+MANZ+Boyz. Alongside them goes a Deffkilla Trike and Nobz Bikes to deliver the 2nd Weirdboy for T2 and 3 ritual
The major point is that the ritual actions aren´t any real overhead to the normal strategy as I would advance to grab objectives in the midfield anyway. But if the opponent doesn´t want Orks to get 15 VP they have to commit to killing a lowly 75 point char whilst the area is flooded with Ork melee specialists with much higher threat level. Cost is 2CP and 150 points for a possible 15VP which neither is devastating if it fails.
The counter to the T1 BA Weirdboy is that we are going second and the opponent manages to flood the centre with units, but we can see that before committing and it´s a doubtful tactical move by them. I assume that Weirdboy will go down asap and not contribute any more. Next the caravan of vehicles filled with Orks job is to create space, unload and protect the 2nd Weirdboy for ritual T2 and T3.
So, what are your thoughts? This is all theorizing as I wrote at first, but maybe there is something here.
---
I started planning this because I feel that we are 1 decent secondary short. Engage and Scramblers are almost default, but to often kill secondaries doesn´t work. In a nutshell GW has missed the mark yet another time by allowing durable and fewer number armies have an upside by not giving up VP. One could imagine that more expensive, but fewer units would disadvantage those armies on Primaries, yet that doesn´t seem correct due to the few number of objectives that needs to be covered. Hence we get these Bladeguard Vets + Eradicator lists etc..
In addition, as I understand it, the same psyker has to perform all three casts, meaning a well timed attack on your psyker leaves your with zero chance to gain any VP.
Jidmah wrote: Dead Sneaky can't be used T1, as any reserves.
Hmm, where does that say? Are you sure you are not mixing Reinforcements and Reserves?
CA p64 - Reinforcement
Some units have a rule that allows them to start the battle in location other than the Battlefield; units that use such rules are called Reinforcements...(goes on and says nothing about T1)
Dead Sneaky'
At the end of any of your Movement phases that unit can emerge from hiding – set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models.
CA Rulebook p80 - Strategic Reserves
Note that these rules do not apply to units that are using other rules that enable them to start on the battlefield. (Goes on and this prohibits T1)
FAQ on rulebook comes up empty on Reserves/Reinforcement for me too.
Jidmah wrote: Dead Sneaky can't be used T1, as any reserves.
Hmm, where does that say? Are you sure you are not mixing Reinforcements and Reserves?
CA p64 - Reinforcement
Some units have a rule that allows them to start the battle in location other than the Battlefield; units that use such rules are called Reinforcements...(goes on and says nothing about T1)
Dead Sneaky'
At the end of any of your Movement phases that unit can emerge from hiding – set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models.
You missed the start of Dead Sneaky:
"Select a blood axe infantry unit of 8PL or less and place it in hiding instead of placing it on the battlefield"
So the unit is starting off-battlefield, so is reserves, so no turn 1 dead sneaky.
With regard to the weirdboy needing to survive 3 turns of casting this (which is highly unlikely), the best protection I can think of for him is to make him the warlord, in a bad moons detachment, and give him the best armour teef can buy (warlord trait) for 4++ and the super cybork for a 5+++. Then surround him in grots and boys (the grots will cover him whilst preventing an excessive risk of perils). I would look to start him embarked in a vehicle, then disembark 3", move 5", advance D6". So an average movement of 11.5" forwards on turn 1 should get within 6" of the middle without issue. Then you have to keep him surrounded in covering bodies for 3 turns to perform the ritual. We have the advantage that he can't fail the ritual unless he perils, as long as there's 10 boys nearby, so give him some waves of grots and have your charge buffers over 10" from him to keep him in control!
some bloke wrote: You missed the start of Dead Sneaky:
"Select a blood axe infantry unit of 8PL or less and place it in hiding instead of placing it on the battlefield"
So the unit is starting off-battlefield, so is reserves, so no turn 1 dead sneaky.
Why would that turn him into a Reserve? Rather the opposite as per Reinforcements p64 above (again): "units have a rule that allows them to start the battle in a location other than...". I.e. off board called "Hiding" in this case.
Do you mean that "Hiding" somehow translates into "not deploy(ed) at the start of battle" as per the Reserve rule? That´s a preamble. Strategic Reserves has nothing to do with various deployment options inherent to units. It´s just an option to deploy any unit by that particular rule. Like putting a Terminator Squad in Reserve instead in the T Chamber (which then is a Reinforcement). You could do it, but it´d be a waste.
Where does this difference between Reserve and Reinforcement come in and separates this case into the latter (or any other like e.g. the T chamber)? I´m confused
EDIT: I found Goonhammers comments on this too which alludes to my reasoning:
While Strategic Reserves units are set up during the Reinforcements step of the movement phase, other methods of deploying units as reinforcements still work as they did previously, and importantly you do not have to pay the Strategic Reserve cost for them. If a rules refers specifically to Strategic Reserves, then it also only applies to units being set up using this rule.
I hope they make Grot Tanks great again. 4d6 movement does not seem completely unreasonable when you factor in the average movement of a lot of vehicles.
Elfric wrote: I hope they make Grot Tanks great again. 4d6 movement does not seem completely unreasonable when you factor in the average movement of a lot of vehicles.
they need higher leadership. if you use 4 grot tanks, and one dies, leadership of 5 and 6 will result in a tank running off which is terrible. or a price reduction, or something else. More hp maybe. Not sure.
They at least need something done with the morale phase, because enemies picking the secondaries "Bring it down" will get easy points taking away 4 wound grot tanks.
Also i would really like to see the Grot Mega tank in action
FW Compendium table of contents is on Warhammer Community.
Chinork Warkopta, as many expected, is dead. A bit surprised the Mega and Meka dreads survived, as well as the Killtank.
"Select a blood axe infantry unit of 8PL or less and place it in hiding instead of placing it on the battlefield"
Scactha wrote: Do you mean that "Hiding" somehow translates into "not deploy(ed) at the start of battle" as per the Reserve rule?
Color for emphasis. Hiding is not on the battlefield and therefore hiding bloodaxes are "Reinforcements" as per the rules. Both matched play mission rules disallow bringing in reinforcements in turn one as per the last paragraph of "Declare Reserves and Transports" step.
im really confused that theres a Nob on Bike entry in the new FW book apparently.
The heck for? Different weapons? Some snazzy special rule options? Different statline since their bikes are bigger than "standard" bikes? (doubt that last one they'd just name them something else)
"Select a blood axe infantry unit of 8PL or less and place it in hiding instead of placing it on the battlefield"
Scactha wrote: Do you mean that "Hiding" somehow translates into "not deploy(ed) at the start of battle" as per the Reserve rule?
Color for emphasis. Hiding is not on the battlefield and therefore hiding bloodaxes are "Reinforcements" as per the rules. Both matched play mission rules disallow bringing in reinforcements in turn one as per the last paragraph of "Declare Reserves and Transports" step.
Ah, p6, now I got a reference. Thanks. Pity, trashing that idea!
There would still be a viability for bringing the bloodaxe psyker in for turn 2 onwards, bu then it has to be done by one single unit so that's unhelpful too.
Vineheart01 wrote: im really confused that theres a Nob on Bike entry in the new FW book apparently.
The heck for? Different weapons? Some snazzy special rule options? Different statline since their bikes are bigger than "standard" bikes? (doubt that last one they'd just name them something else)
It is a bit odd, but technically Nob Bikers only existing model *is* Forgeworld. They have a nice kit, actually.
Maybe that means they'll get a points update / buff? I actually think they are close to being quite interesting. 45 point variant w/ Kill saw ain't bad.
Yeah, as much as it sucks for an Evil Sunz character to bite it, it's much better for us to have a customizable Biker Boss than Zhadsnark who for all intents and purposes wasn't much better or distinct than a regular BB anyways. Hopefully this incentivizes them to bring in Wazzdakka at some point, definitely sucks that the warkopta kicked the bucket, though not unexpected.
Vineheart01 wrote: Kannonwagon most likely is the wagon with the 2 big guns, they might have merged them rather than axe the Liftadroppa entirely.
Otherwise i really dont know why they'd rename it, since the only other weapon is the Supakannon.
Let's hope the supa kannon gets a little buffed up too, since the killkannon used to be S7 in the index compared to the S8 it is now in the codex if I remember correctly. So making the supakannon S9 and AP-3 would be nice.
Warhammer community page... they put out the index content list no datasheets.
Also I’m hoping the battlewagon w supa kannon gets its own beefed up datasheet like the other varieties or the kannonwagon is just worse then the gunwagon with relic.
If the kannon wagon gets some bespoke rules it can be decent.
thanks. despite my best googling efforts i couldnt find it.
huh, and they have a made a difference between a Meka dread and Mega dread this time. interesting.
Still i dont understand why not keeping the Chinork. I mean its a unique transport vehicle.
It's because they're no longer in stock and they don't want to bother keeping/using molds for stuff they no longer have available on the store. It's the usual "No model, no rules" policy that expanded from the main GW line to all their other products. We'll technically have them as rules in legends, but unless you have your opponent's permission, they're basically not allowed in competitive games.
yea. Well i am absolutely Stoked about the Meka Dread. yesterday i wanted to buy one but since i was told about the forge world shinanigans dropping next week i held off since you have to buy the weapons individually.
But i sure am interested in them, i just hope they eventually add the Meka Dreads to the Tin Ead's culture.
Also, make Grot tanks and Grot Mega tanks great, im really looking to trying out a grot army. or at least an army where there are a lot of grots that benefits from the rerolls of ones for their vehicles, and 6+ invul save.
I was thinking, btw, If you fight against imperial knights, is the best course of action for troop choices, not Grots over boys? I mean your boys are probably not going to dent the enemy, so might as well make them cheap, and grots are cheaper? then you have more points for something else thats killy.
it just seems like the imperial knights shooting at my boys, i would lose as many as if they shot at my grots.
I had a battle yesterday, against my first imperial knights army for 1850 points. i only have that, so i brought what i could and needless to say, i did not have enough anti armor.
and i just finished my first Chinork.. what a waste of time it took to paint it...
It's not like we didn't tell you that exactly this was going to happen
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Beardedragon wrote: huh, and they have a made a difference between a Meka dread and Mega dread this time. interesting.
They used to be two different models, merging them into one datasheet was a really strange decision.
yea.. you did. and i was in denial.
I just find it annoying given how unique it is. The nob bikers are just bigger warbikers, the mega dread is just the offspring of a deff dread who had sex with a gorkanaut, the Chinork is.. a unit we dont have. so its sad to see it gone. But it makes sense what you say, they dont have a model, so.. "yeet" i guess
Also i dont have a lot of units. a total of 1850 of an army that makes a bit sense, and the Chinork with rattler kannons have been a stable part of my army :( now he no longer will be
Chinork, old buddy, we had a good ride. Normally id say: you have finally gotten peace, but you're an Ork vehicle so i guess your version of heaven is an imperial infested world of eternal war in which you respawn constantly after each battle.
Like that ork on the Khorne daemon world.
Fight on ye gits, eternal Waaaagh! for the fallen Forge World models.
lets just hope the warboss on bike comes with a powerklaw... zhardsnark IS modelled with a saw... so if they go by the model, we will not be able to give him the relic claw :(
RedNoak wrote: lets just hope the warboss on bike comes with a powerklaw... zhardsnark IS modelled with a saw... so if they go by the model, we will not be able to give him the relic claw :(
i hope so. i bought a Big Trakk and a warboss on warbike a few days ago which im waiting for arriving.
They only sell 3 arms..
Klaw, saw and killkannon
I have nfc how they intend to differentiate between meka and mega dread?
Unless one has a kff and the other has mega charga ability and they both have the same 3 weapon options.
The shunta arm is no longer sold.
And the supaskorcha arm was never made... but my god is it a sweet weapon profile.
The rattler kannon was also never made.
Dunno if I worry about the Bossbike's new shape as long as he keeps his Toughness and bike speed. To me he´s the point man in an assault team and not a a pivotal part of a list.
---
On other topics, since my Psychic Ritual idea crashed and burned due to bad reading skills, I wonder what secondaries people pick beyond Engage and Scramble? The reason I ask is because I´m starting to find it a tad annoying to find decent kill ones vs the typical MEQ list. It´s mostly Intercessor+Eradicators+Bladeguard+3 chars+3 vehicles leaving no good choices.
If you can get 9VP out of killing vehicles or characters, that might be an option, but I understand the problem.
From the psychic secondaries only mental interrogation is worth taking, but it's very luck dependent if your opponent does have denies. In a recent game with my DG I ended up with 0 VP from it because every cast either failed or was denied by enemy psykers.
But not so much. The third secondaries is a hard nut againts such armies.
Options:
- enemy psykers? Abhorn the witch?
- do you have Jets? Cut of the head via Eadbutt and Wazboom?
- some of the mission specific secondaries works pretty well. Check the mission.
- support vehicles with W11+ ? Bring it down?
Cut of the head sucks against marines in my experience, because they regularly are 6W models with some way to mitigate mortal wounds through healing or FNP, so 6MW aren't enough to cash in the VP.
Jidmah wrote: If you can get 9VP out of killing vehicles or characters, that might be an option, but I understand the problem.
From the psychic secondaries only mental interrogation is worth taking, but it's very luck dependent if your opponent does have denies. In a recent game with my DG I ended up with 0 VP from it because every cast either failed or was denied by enemy psykers.
I had a game recently vs AM where the opponent embarked most chars in a transport and never left it after I picked Interrogation. 0 VP there too.
As Codexes come with specific 2ndaries we are also abit on the backfoot. I notice a tendency for Marines to pick Oath of Moment for example.
Most of the codex secondaries are pretty junk. Oath of moment is pretty much only use. Necrons have one that MIGHT be worthwhile if they use silent king as silent king actually could kill something so 3vp per unit silet king himself kills(but you can of course deal with that by keeping silent king not having easy kills). Only other of concern is 2vp per quarter enemy isn't in turn 2 onward which against static slow gunlines could be viable. Rest of necrons are junk.
And the marine one kill lots of units in lots of different unique ways is junk(1vp per unit you kill with heavy or grenade in devastator doctrine up to 5, rapid fire/assault weapons same in tactical doctrine etc? Good luck with those!)
If other codexes follow level the codex secondaries won't be issue.
Jidmah wrote: Cut of the head sucks against marines in my experience, because they regularly are 6W models with some way to mitigate mortal wounds through healing or FNP, so 6MW aren't enough to cash in the VP.
With 2 or more planes, you could do it. But it can sucks pretty easily. Without planes it sucks totaly. But you know - there are no good options...
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