torblind wrote: You can use the CTan thunderbolt power to get to characters right? Just pick a unit that is being buffed by a troublesome character within 3" and you will always get 4+ on him too
Nope, the power specifically states you cannot target characters who have <10 maximum wounds.
That's for the first pick only. After that it's just every other unit within 3"
Hey everyone this thread has been awesome for reading some proper tactica.
Can anyone take a look at my list and give me some feedback for my new army. These are the models I own/building but if you have any new ideas fire away. Really stuck on the dynasty code and traits (even after 60 pages ) and want to get it finalised for my 3 games next week Vs tau, Drukhari & space wolves.
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Necrons) ++
Dynastic Heirlooms: Dynastic Heirlooms: 1 Extra Artefact (-1CP)
Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Mephrit!!??!
+ HQ +
Cryptek: Chronometron, Staff of Light
Lord: Artefact: The Orb of Eternity, Resurrection Orb, Warscythe
I love the Sautekh WL trait but I just can't seem to justify the buff on either detachment. Also unsure if mephrit would be worth it as getting close to any decent melee doesn't sound fun.
Went Gauss on the TB for consistency at longer range also feth my dice getting 6s
Novokh Scarabs and Wraiths are great, but I think those Sentinels probably want to be Sautekh so their big guns fire at full BS the turn they deep strike in.
If your Troops are going with the Aggressively Territorial code it'd probably be best to give their accompanying Cryptek the Chronometron rather than the Canoptek Cloak (so he can help them while they're camping objectives).
Novokh Scarabs and Wraiths are great, but I think those Sentinels probably want to be Sautekh so their big guns fire at full BS the turn they deep strike in.
If your Troops are going with the Aggressively Territorial code it'd probably be best to give their accompanying Cryptek the Chronometron rather than the Canoptek Cloak (so he can help them while they're camping objectives).
What are the Lychguard doing?
Most likely taking the lychguard out was going to VoD them up but don’t think so anymore any ideas what I would replace them with
Seems like everybody is going meprhit mephrit mephrit these days. Sure -1Ap feels good. I'll argue you can make better Sautekh combos.
1) Better AP won't help vs invu saves and feel no pains. There are a load of these in the meta.
2) You need to be in close range. While i can see the usefulness for Warriors, DDA or Monoliths, realise that in this meta, you will be charged the very next turn on which you shot. For anything else than DDA and monoliths, you won't be able to shoot again.
3) +1 to hit, with our whole army that hits on 3+, in mathematicly equivalent to -1AP in most case, but better against invu saves.
4) Nobody seems to like the Sautekh stratagem Methological destruction, it can potentially give +1 to hit to many units shooting the same target. Yes even vehicules. Plus, you can stay at long range. Anybody love 72'' DDA shot that hit on 2+?
5) Max out the Tesla: MWBD on a unit, then the Sautekh stratagem, then a stalker targets to reroll 1s for good measures. Methematicly that's the best Tesla you can dream of, hit on 2+, 3 hits on 4+, reroll 1s. Even against armor 2+ you will land a couple of wounds.
Yes i get it its a 2CP stratagem versus a passive trait. Even then, build your army around this strategy, i think its better.
Had my Sautekh list ready since beta, just waiting on the models.
It is totally built around Imo and this strategy with the novokh as a fast melee flanking threat.
Seems like everybody is going meprhit mephrit mephrit these days. Sure -1Ap feels good. I'll argue you can make better Sautekh combos.
1) Better AP won't help vs invu saves and feel no pains. There are a load of these in the meta.
2) You need to be in close range. While i can see the usefulness for Warriors, DDA or Monoliths, realise that in this meta, you will be charged the very next turn on which you shot. For anything else than DDA and monoliths, you won't be able to shoot again.
3) +1 to hit, with our whole army that hits on 3+, in mathematicly equivalent to -1AP in most case, but better against invu saves.
4) Nobody seems to like the Sautekh stratagem Methological destruction, it can potentially give +1 to hit to many units shooting the same target. Yes even vehicules. Plus, you can stay at long range. Anybody love 72'' DDA shot that hit on 2+?
5) Max out the Tesla: MWBD on a unit, then the Sautekh stratagem, then a stalker targets to reroll 1s for good measures. Methematicly that's the best Tesla you can dream of, hit on 2+, 3 hits on 4+, reroll 1s. Even against armor 2+ you will land a couple of wounds.
Yes i get it its a 2CP stratagem versus a passive trait. Even then, build your army around this strategy, i think its better.
Had my Sautekh list ready since beta, just waiting on the models.
It is totally built around Imo and this strategy with the novokh as a fast melee flanking threat.
Press the edit button on your post. (top right on you post, opposite side of the screen of your user info)
On the top left of the edit screen, under the title, you have (B) (I) (U) (QUOTE) (SPOILER).
Put your cursor at the part in the text you want to start to hide. Press the (SPOILER) button. It should insert something that says (spoiler).
Then put your cursor at the end of the part you want to hide. Press the (SPOILER) button again. It should insert something that says (/spoiler).
Press the [Preview] button underneath to check to make sure you did it properly.
Should look something like the above.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dew wrote: Off topic, but is the unit grading spoiler link on page one working for anyone?
So the Deceiver is definitely good, no question there. It either sets up nasty positioning turn 1 or does the normal C'tan shard thing of pumping out mortal wounds otherwise.
But what are the best units we can warp in with the Deceiver? Besides just building around monolith/Zahndrekh warp in shenanigans for a going-first alpha. I mean other scenarios, where you build a more resilient list that sometimes gets to go first.
Why not Wraiths, should keep him busy while the rest of your army walks up and they also shield the CTan. They can't charge sure, but they weren't charging his backline turn 1 anyway. Now he has them as a threat to deal with.
Going Nihilak you could 2CP give the wraiths 2++ while they wait while 3 DDA spew balefire from your backline rerolling 1s to hit.
If you get to deploy more, bring up 10 tesla immortals, 3rd unit perhaps scarabs, have your overlord Veil in another 10 tesls immortals with MWBD, and you'd be set to light him up for a couple of turns
torblind wrote: Why not Wraiths, should keep him busy while the rest of your army walks up and they also shield the CTan. They can't charge sure, but they weren't charging his backline turn 1 anyway. Now he has them as a threat to deal with.
Going Nihilak you could 2CP give the wraiths 2++ while they wait while 3 DDA spew balefire from your backline rerolling 1s to hit.
If you get to deploy more, bring up 10 tesla immortals, 3rd unit perhaps scarabs, have your overlord Veil in another 10 tesls immortals with MWBD, and you'd be set to light him up for a couple of turns
I fully agree with wraiths as even in the index this served me very well, however I think we can do better than relying on using a 2cp stratagem from a dynasty that doesn't benefit them.
if you deceiver in a vault as well or some other unit (maybe just more wraiths or a max suad of tesla tomb blades) then the threat density should keep them from removing your deceiver. This will save you 2cp and not rely on you getting first turn to prevent them from shooting at them with a 3++ still.
Im wondering mhow to use the deciver if you dont get the first turn. I fear everyrthing you could port to the front will get blown to pieces and is wasted.
So how to use the deciever if you go second? Maybe just redeploy stuff behind cover in your backfield?
stormcraft wrote: Im wondering mhow to use the deciver if you dont get the first turn. I fear everyrthing you could port to the front will get blown to pieces and is wasted.
So how to use the deciever if you go second? Maybe just redeploy stuff behind cover in your backfield?
this has always been a problem with its use, usually since I'm moving up wraiths or big tough units that can take a beating I place them as close as I can while still being in cover or out of LoS.
Normally just sticking something into cover on to objectives.
As an alternative,
Put one or two vulnerable things into bad positions to bait your opponent into deploying his stuff in a position to come after them.
Then after everything is on the table just Deceiver your vulnerable guys to safety to throw off your opponent's plans, hopefully waisting half his first turn.
Not the best use, but it's certainly better than sticking your stuff right in your opponent's face and just hoping they survive until your turn.
Reporting back from my first tournament after codex release. I lost 2, won 1 out of 3. We played CA missions instead of ITC. My opponents were the Adepticon-winning Flyrant list, an ad mech list, and the LVO Ynnari/Reaper list. I beat the ad mech list, and lost to the other two. Here's the list I ran:
Destroyers with extermination protocols are the MVPs. I am going to drop the Heavy D for another regular destroyer. I am thinking about running two squads of 6 with a destroyer lord now, as 18 shots, rerolling everything for 1 CP is so good. My one unit was able to burn a Flyrant and 2 Molochs, but sadly they got alpha'd in both my Ad Mech and Ynnari games. I think I could have avoided that with better deployment, and especially if I had run a Nephrek outrider.
The pylon may not be the go-to anti-vehicle anymore. It really did work in the admech game, killing a Knight and two Armigers, and destroyed 3 Flyrants before getting destroyed. However, at 550 points, I think I would rather take 2-3 DDAs considering that <TITANIC> units are somewhat rare in the meta, and only being able to focus one target per turn really was a weakness.
Imotekh is now totally worth his points. The reduction feels exactly appropriate, and his Storm ability did work for me in all three games (albeit with a couple lucky 6s). Also, his 2 MWBDs is really convenient, as I just sandwiched him between the two immortal squads and let them tear through things.
Nightbringer is good, but keeping him out of line of sight or shielded is crucial. Sky of Falling Stars and Cosmic Fire are amazing.
Scarabs detonating is really very good, and nobody expects it.
I liked Sautekh, although I honestly did not advance as much as I thought I would. That may be a matter of just practice, but I still feel that it is one of the better dynasties to play with. Also, utilizing the +1 to hit strategem with the tesla immortals feels good, and with Imo as my warlord, I was able to ride a single command point for about three uses in my Ad Mech game. Sadly, against the Flyrant list, I was only able to castle up for the first turn, since my opponent deep struck 9 big bugs, and once they dropped in, it was all fight phase, all the time. Against Ynnari, it went as expected. My opponent seized, and and soulbursted through my entire warrior unit and half my immortals first turn. Maybe better deployment would have helped, but I am not so sure.
At any rate, although I lost, I was pleased with how well my army did against two lists that virtually the entire 40k community agrees needs to be limited. Against "normal" lists, we are even better.
Rumbling_Otter wrote: Destroyers with extermination protocols are the MVPs. [...] I am thinking about running two squads of 6 with a destroyer lord now, as 18 shots, rerolling everything for 1 CP is so good.
You can only do Extermination Protocols on one unit a turn, though.
But let's talk Nephrekh Outriders.
It's almost obligatory for each list now to have the deep striking 6 Destroyers + two 3x Scarabs.
But what HQ is everyone assigning to this detachment?
For me I think it's between,
• Szeras (if he's not going to be able to benefit from the Nephrekh code, at least he can buff the troops from your other detachments).
• Destroyer Lord (might be able to help the Destroyers, plus he would probably really appreciate the free 6" advance).
• CCB (also would benefit from the 6" advance).
Of the three above I feel the CCB would be the least cohesive to the detachment... but he's not that much more expensive than the other two with a lot more offence and defense.
Won all 3 rounds, 2 against death guard and one against Tau.
The destroyer lord was kind of a mixed bag, I never succeeded a resurrection protocols, but he did wreck a lot of things will still alive.
Deep striking the destroyers was wonderful, in my first game they dropped on Mortarion and got him to half wounds.
Novokh wraiths performed well, my favorite was them sneaking around screening units to kill typhus, my opponent was not ready for them to leave the pox walkers behind and get a charge off on his HQ.
Tau are still vulnerable to sniping their marker lights, after I wiped out the pathfinders, I was able to win a fire fight with the tau.
Played two fairly competitive games yesterday with Sautekh + Imotekh. Tried a couple different things, but overall notes:
Spoiler:
-Sautekh feels better than Mephrit. The AP is nice but every time I get within 12" of something, even if I kill it, they just get charged and locked up afterwards, or just die. I used Methodical Destruction both games multiple times and each time it felt super powerful, more than enough to make up for the Mephrit bonus.
-Imotekh feels super good. Maybe 2 Overlords is "better" from a functionality standpoint (less points, more overall wounds/bodies), but his MWs were useful in both games and his gun felt super good to shoot when things got close. Plus the extra CP alongside Hyperlogical Strategist was nice since I burned through on Methodical Destruction, Extermination Protocols, and Repair Subroutines.
-Chronoteks feel better than Cloakteks. Yes, the speed is nice, and occasionally you can regen some extra wounds, but mostly I just kept the Cryptek behind my lines and that 5++ comes in clutch when you absolutely need to keep Warriors/Immortals alive.
-Iffy on Destroyers. Both games they did damage, but they're in a bit of an awkward spot. S6 means they wound most Vehicles on 5+ (not terrible with Extermination Protocols, but still not great), and they seem to be overkill against most infantry. I almost would rather just have more regular shooting, but there are targets that they rock against. Maybe not a max unit of 6? I might go for 4 or 5 next time and see how it goes.
-Wraiths are better now that I remembered how to roll 3+ saves. Even if you don't roll them well, I feel like they're almost necessary to slow down beatstick Characters like Captains, Celestine, etc. Not much else in the codex feels like it would slow it down better, except maybe Shieldguard? But I'm not fully convinced that they're as good.
-I think Veil should be used more defensively, to get out of combat without Retreating. Every time I used it to try and Alpha Strike, my stuff got focused and killed immediately. Perhaps I'm just too aggro with my placement, but have to be more careful with it.
-I've used foot C'tan (sometimes multiple) in all of my Codex games. The awkwardness of them comes from the fact that if they lose their screen, they just die immediately, because 4++ just doesn't cut it (as always). The Vault doesn't really have this problem because, well, 28 wounds is a lot. It's 4 C'tan's worth for the point cost of ~2.2. Everyone I've talked to is absolutely terrified of Vaults and asked why I didn't have one yet. I think foot C'tan are fine, but you need to build around them to get the most effect out of them.
More testing to come. Should have a game or two this week and then an RTT next Sunday.
But let's talk Nephrekh Outriders.
It's almost obligatory for each list now to have the deep striking 6 Destroyers + two 3x Scarabs.
But what HQ is everyone assigning to this detachment?
For me I think it's between,
• Szeras (if he's not going to be able to benefit from the Nephrekh code, at least he can buff the troops from your other detachments).
• Destroyer Lord (might be able to help the Destroyers, plus he would probably really appreciate the free 6" advance).
• CCB (also would benefit from the 6" advance).
Of the three above I feel the CCB would be the least cohesive to the detachment... but he's not that much more expensive than the other two with a lot more offence and defense.
What's everyone else taking for them and why?
Spoiler:
Just played against Nurgle Demons yesterday running a Sautekh battalion and Nephrekh Outrider. DLord (warscythe and Nanoscarab Casket), 3 Scarabs, 6 Wraiths, 6 Destroyers and the Deceiver. Hard to say how they performed due to bad luck in dice rolling (example: I made 3 Reanimation Protocol rolls all game long, even with a Cryptek in the battalion-10 Gauss, 10 Tesla, 15 Warriors). Based on my opponent's deployment the plan was to reposition (in order) the Wraiths, DLord and Scarab bombs on the left flank and move in from there. d3 Deceiver roll: a 1, CP reroll: a 2. (dammit!) Sautekh warlord CP save: a 1 (sigh).
Turn 2 the Wraiths did their job in multi-charging a Herald, Beast and 10 Nurgle somethings (troops). Deceiver failed a 7 inch charge (3 and 2, CP rerolled a 1, another failed Sautekh WLCP save roll) but did put out some mortal wounds with Cosmic Fire. DLord held against a deepstruck Great Unclean One (thinking that was more due to the warlord CCB being focused in CC), Scarab bomb did a mortal wound. Destroyers wanted to do their job, but against all of the Invulns and then Disgusting Resilient rolls they were semi-neutered.
Will run again against a different list and see how it goes. On paper it looks good, but dice rolling was scissors to my paper.
So my first 8th edition list. What do you guys think? The idea is the block of troops goes up the middle, the smaller scarabs keep DS from the DDA and the larger ones act as a screen.
Evilbookworm wrote: So my first 8th edition list. What do you guys think? The idea is the block of troops goes up the middle, the smaller scarabs keep DS from the DDA and the larger ones act as a screen.
Evilbookworm wrote: So my first 8th edition list. What do you guys think? The idea is the block of troops goes up the middle, the smaller scarabs keep DS from the DDA and the larger ones act as a screen.
Having that Outrider as Sautekh seems like a waste. Literally nothing there will benefit from that Dynasty.
Why not run them as Novokh or Nephrekh?
Probably so the Lord isn't a useless body. If he's Sautekh, at least he can use the Veil and give out his Reroll aura. And then he can pop Repair Protocols onto the Scarabs and buff with the Cryptek.
It wouldn't hurt to make some of the Scarabs into Nephrekh so you can DS if you want, though.
Evilbookworm wrote: So my first 8th edition list. What do you guys think? The idea is the block of troops goes up the middle, the smaller scarabs keep DS from the DDA and the larger ones act as a screen.
Having that Outrider as Sautekh seems like a waste. Literally nothing there will benefit from that Dynasty.
Why not run them as Novokh or Nephrekh?
Probably so the Lord isn't a useless body. If he's Sautekh, at least he can use the Veil and give out his Reroll aura. And then he can pop Repair Protocols onto the Scarabs and buff with the Cryptek.
It wouldn't hurt to make some of the Scarabs into Nephrekh so you can DS if you want, though.
That's it exactly. So the lord can buff those three infantry units.
I had a cab there originally but realized it would just get focused immediately. Honestly I may change those scarabs out to lychgard or something. I'm not sure if I getting good value from that detachment.
How could I change some scarabs to nephrekh without buying another hq?
Rumbling_Otter wrote: Destroyers with extermination protocols are the MVPs. [...] I am thinking about running two squads of 6 with a destroyer lord now, as 18 shots, rerolling everything for 1 CP is so good.
You can only do Extermination Protocols on one unit a turn, though.
But let's talk Nephrekh Outriders.
It's almost obligatory for each list now to have the deep striking 6 Destroyers + two 3x Scarabs.
But what HQ is everyone assigning to this detachment?
For me I think it's between,
• Szeras (if he's not going to be able to benefit from the Nephrekh code, at least he can buff the troops from your other detachments).
• Destroyer Lord (might be able to help the Destroyers, plus he would probably really appreciate the free 6" advance).
• CCB (also would benefit from the 6" advance).
Of the three above I feel the CCB would be the least cohesive to the detachment... but he's not that much more expensive than the other two with a lot more offence and defense.
What's everyone else taking for them and why?
I’m not sure I follow how this is obligatory?
What is your specific target for the destroyer squad that you absolutely need to shove 100+ points into an HQ tax so badly to shoehorn them in that way?
Rumbling_Otter wrote: Reporting back from my first tournament after codex release. I lost 2, won 1 out of 3. We played CA missions instead of ITC. My opponents were the Adepticon-winning Flyrant list, an ad mech list, and the LVO Ynnari/Reaper list. I beat the ad mech list, and lost to the other two. Here's the list I ran:
Destroyers with extermination protocols are the MVPs. I am going to drop the Heavy D for another regular destroyer. I am thinking about running two squads of 6 with a destroyer lord now, as 18 shots, rerolling everything for 1 CP is so good. My one unit was able to burn a Flyrant and 2 Molochs, but sadly they got alpha'd in both my Ad Mech and Ynnari games. I think I could have avoided that with better deployment, and especially if I had run a Nephrek outrider.
The pylon may not be the go-to anti-vehicle anymore. It really did work in the admech game, killing a Knight and two Armigers, and destroyed 3 Flyrants before getting destroyed. However, at 550 points, I think I would rather take 2-3 DDAs considering that <TITANIC> units are somewhat rare in the meta, and only being able to focus one target per turn really was a weakness.
Imotekh is now totally worth his points. The reduction feels exactly appropriate, and his Storm ability did work for me in all three games (albeit with a couple lucky 6s). Also, his 2 MWBDs is really convenient, as I just sandwiched him between the two immortal squads and let them tear through things.
Nightbringer is good, but keeping him out of line of sight or shielded is crucial. Sky of Falling Stars and Cosmic Fire are amazing.
Scarabs detonating is really very good, and nobody expects it.
I liked Sautekh, although I honestly did not advance as much as I thought I would. That may be a matter of just practice, but I still feel that it is one of the better dynasties to play with. Also, utilizing the +1 to hit strategem with the tesla immortals feels good, and with Imo as my warlord, I was able to ride a single command point for about three uses in my Ad Mech game. Sadly, against the Flyrant list, I was only able to castle up for the first turn, since my opponent deep struck 9 big bugs, and once they dropped in, it was all fight phase, all the time. Against Ynnari, it went as expected. My opponent seized, and and soulbursted through my entire warrior unit and half my immortals first turn. Maybe better deployment would have helped, but I am not so sure.
At any rate, although I lost, I was pleased with how well my army did against two lists that virtually the entire 40k community agrees needs to be limited. Against "normal" lists, we are even better.
Hey just as an FYI the Gauss pylon in your list CANNOT benefit from the nihilakh code. On page 108 under Abilities it specifically says super heavy auxilary detatchments do not get codes. It sucks.
Rumbling_Otter wrote: Destroyers with extermination protocols are the MVPs. [...] I am thinking about running two squads of 6 with a destroyer lord now, as 18 shots, rerolling everything for 1 CP is so good.
You can only do Extermination Protocols on one unit a turn, though.
But let's talk Nephrekh Outriders.
It's almost obligatory for each list now to have the deep striking 6 Destroyers + two 3x Scarabs.
But what HQ is everyone assigning to this detachment?
For me I think it's between,
• Szeras (if he's not going to be able to benefit from the Nephrekh code, at least he can buff the troops from your other detachments).
• Destroyer Lord (might be able to help the Destroyers, plus he would probably really appreciate the free 6" advance).
• CCB (also would benefit from the 6" advance).
Of the three above I feel the CCB would be the least cohesive to the detachment... but he's not that much more expensive than the other two with a lot more offence and defense.
What's everyone else taking for them and why?
I’m not sure I follow how this is obligatory?
What is your specific target for the destroyer squad that you absolutely need to shove 100+ points into an HQ tax so badly to shoehorn them in that way?
You dont necessarily need an HQ. Ive tried them twice now as an auxiliary support detatchment. It costs two CP but it saves on HQ taxes. The second CP is for deepstriking them. That second one is also potentially free if you have a sautekh warlord.
Hey just as an FYI the Gauss pylon in your list CANNOT benefit from the nihilakh code. On page 108 under Abilities it specifically says super heavy auxilary detatchments do not get codes. It sucks.
Well that's the confusing part; Super-heavy auxiliaries don't benefit from the 'passive' dynasty code trait, but can benefit from stratagems as far as I know.
Sure it can benefit from a code. You just need to take it either as part of a command detachment, or with some other super heavies. Like a Tesseract Vault or two. Works just like Guard superheavies, no?
It still gains <DYNASTY>. So a Mephrit Pylon would not gain extra AP in half range, but would be subject to Talent For Annihilation or being repaired by a Spyder.
Werekill wrote: So the Deceiver is definitely good, no question there. It either sets up nasty positioning turn 1 or does the normal C'tan shard thing of pumping out mortal wounds otherwise.
But what are the best units we can warp in with the Deceiver? Besides just building around monolith/Zahndrekh warp in shenanigans for a going-first alpha. I mean other scenarios, where you build a more resilient list that sometimes gets to go first.
Anything that rapids fire. I wouldn't teleport my best stuff so near the ennemy. You want something reliable, resistant that will make half the enemy army turn back. Like.... 40 warriors + a ghost ark?? Drop in some deathmark for good measures.
But, if you don't plan on using the Deceiver trick, i find Nightbringer better in almost every way. 215pts that will kill double his value easily.
Tyr13 wrote: Sure it can benefit from a code. You just need to take it either as part of a command detachment, or with some other super heavies. Like a Tesseract Vault or two. Works just like Guard superheavies, no?
Like i said in my post. Super heavy aux doesnt get codes. The list being referenced had a super heavy aux. I never said it could never get codes. Just that his didnt.
The fact it does get strats but no codes is a bit bizzare. Do any other codex have this restriction? I know nids,craftworld,drukhari,admech dont have that line in there.
Doctoralex wrote: Had a multiplayer today. Won't go too much into detail but....
14 Novokh Flayed Ones attacked a squad of Grey Knight Terminators..... thats 42 attacks, re-roll to hit, re-roll to wound.
......3 wounds dealt.....
I decide *feth this*, fall the Flayed ones back and Veil a squad of 10 Gauss Immortals nearby. Deals 7 wounds ><
AP is just too important. That's why I'll pretty much always stick with Mephrit.
Have you tried using wraiths or lychguard? Sounds like you were using the wrong tools for the job. Flayed Ones are anti-light infantry or single wound heavies. Not multi-wound heavy infantry like terminators.
Ditto for gauss blasters.
If you want to efficiently kill terminators, take wraiths (they deal 2D now), scythguard or destroyers.
Tyr13 wrote: Sure it can benefit from a code. You just need to take it either as part of a command detachment, or with some other super heavies. Like a Tesseract Vault or two. Works just like Guard superheavies, no?
Like i said in my post. Super heavy aux doesnt get codes. The list being referenced had a super heavy aux. I never said it could never get codes. Just that his didnt.
The fact it does get strats but no codes is a bit bizzare. Do any other codex have this restriction? I know nids,craftworld,drukhari,admech dont have that line in there.
I know. And yes, Imperial Guard have that same restriction. It seems like they limited it to lists that have an in-codex super-heavy. The way to avoid it is to take a super-heavy in a command detachment or in a super heavy detachment. For most purposes, a command detachment is going to be simplest.
And I didnt realise that you said that only in reference to a specific list, I understood it as a general thing, sorry.
skoffs wrote: let's talk Nephrekh Outriders.
It's almost obligatory for each list now to have the deep striking 6 Destroyers + two 3x Scarabs.
I’m not sure I follow how this is obligatory?
What is your specific target for the destroyer squad that you absolutely need to shove 100+ points into an HQ tax so badly to shoehorn them in that way?
Ah, yes, my mistake. That should have been in regards to TAC lists.
The surprise leaf blowers are just too good (imho) to leave out of my lists now.
Yes, you could spend a CP to avoid having to give them an HQ, but then you'd have to decide which is more valuable to you: CP or points
But let's talk Nephrekh Outriders.
It's almost obligatory for each list now to have the deep striking 6 Destroyers + two 3x Scarabs.
But what HQ is everyone assigning to this detachment?
...
What's everyone else taking for them and why?
I've been running Cryptek(Veil) + Destroyerx6 + Destroyerx6 + Scarabsx3.
The idea is that one of the destroyers has the option to start deployed then get Veiled with the Cryptek to wherever you need it to fight. The other destroyer squad comes in via stratagem when needed.
I know that it doubles up on destroyers, but even without the stratagem they're still our most efficient shooting, and they're 18 wounds of 2+/5++ in cover, with RP covering them.
Edit: I should mention that the bulk of my points is Destroyers + Novokh Wraiths. If I were running big Mephrit blobs, they'd be better suited taking the veil.
But let's talk Nephrekh Outriders.
It's almost obligatory for each list now to have the deep striking 6 Destroyers + two 3x Scarabs.
But what HQ is everyone assigning to this detachment?
...
What's everyone else taking for them and why?
I've been running Cryptek(Orb+Veil) + Destroyerx6 + Destroyerx6 + Scarabsx3.
The idea is that one of the destroyers has the option to start deployed then get Veiled with the Cryptek to wherever you need it to fight. The other destroyer squad comes in via stratagem when needed.
I know that it doubles up on destroyers, but even without the stratagem they're still our most efficient shooting, and they're 18 wounds of 2+/5++ in cover, with RP covering them.
Edit: I should mention that the bulk of my points is Destroyers + Novokh Wraiths. If I were running big Mephrit blobs, they'd be better suited taking the veil.
Why Nihilakh?
Yes, the DDA will benefit from it, but everything else is going to need to be moving.
If you went Nephrekh at least everything would be relatively fast (plus the deep strike Destroyers).
Why Nihilakh?
Yes, the DDA will benefit from it, but everything else is going to need to be moving.
If you went Nephrekh at least everything would be relatively fast (plus the deep strike Destroyers).
Nephrekh was my 1st choice but then I thought of the Reavers moving 18, advancing 8 and being able to charge if in a specific Wych cult. I'm also playing on a 4x4. So, he will be able to charge me turn 1 with his Reavers (if he brings them) and Hellions all on his 1st turn plus I think he is bringing Venoms and a Raider.
I think a more defensive approach is needed for Dark Eldar with how fast they can move these days. Have my DDA and Destroyers at the back Field, I'mmortals Cryptek buffing everything it can, warriors out front. The Scarabs absorb charges. I don't even think i could even move around the board with his movement.
Maybe Sautekh might be good? I can advance, still shoot but also have the movement.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, just came to my head. If I use the Scarabs as the chaff then everything gets to re-roll ones if I don't move. 16 Warriors, 9 I'mmortals, DDA (Gauss arrays) and Cryptek all re-rolling 1s to hits should be reliable enough to Destroyer what charges or is in front of me.
Why Nihilakh?
Yes, the DDA will benefit from it, but everything else is going to need to be moving.
If you went Nephrekh at least everything would be relatively fast (plus the deep strike Destroyers).
Nephrekh was my 1st choice but then I thought of the Reavers moving 18, advancing 8 and being able to charge if in a specific Wych cult. I'm also playing on a 4x4. So, he will be able to charge me turn 1 with his Reavers (if he brings them) and Hellions all on his 1st turn plus I think he is bringing Venoms and a Raider.
I think a more defensive approach is needed for Dark Eldar with how fast they can move these days. Have my DDA and Destroyers at the back Field, I'mmortals Cryptek buffing everything it can, warriors out front. The Scarabs absorb charges. I don't even think i could even move around the board with his movement.
Maybe Sautekh might be good? I can advance, still shoot but also have the movement.
Scarabs work particularly well against DE because their best horde clearing weapons (poison) are wounding them on 4s. You do very much need some decent melee despite playing defensively due to how difficult it is to charge/movement block reavers without layers upon layers of scarabs, so I'd suggest including a few nephrekh wraiths that stay back to avoid the reaver's mortal wounds on charging so you can advance and charge in the wraiths to mulch through them as even though the reavers will get up to STR6 with 2 wounds the wraiths are still a great match. lots of tesla is also very much your friend in this as it works particularly well in overwatch as all your hits count as 3, and most of their armour saves are 4+ or worse.
If he is playing talos', BE VERY CAREFUL around them, they put out a metric feth tonne of damage to your vehicles and multiwound models while still being tough to kill since if you're playing them you are definitely using the +1 invul faction giving them a 4+. If you see them, run, and put your D arks and destroyers into them.
I'd also maybe swap out the d ark, if you math it out, unless you're somehow in range with the flayers without moving, regular destroyers and even just tesla tomb blades are outperforming it (Tesla tomb blades not so much but they will usually put out more damage, just less when your dice are hot). So if you have them I would recommend just grabbing some more destroyers since DE are pretty much all T6 anyway.
I've been running Cryptek(Veil) + Destroyerx6 + Destroyerx6 + Scarabsx3.
The idea is that one of the destroyers has the option to start deployed then get Veiled with the Cryptek to wherever you need it to fight. The other destroyer squad comes in via stratagem when needed.
If you wanted more offensive output, could probably replace Cryptek with a D.Lord (still with Veil taking Destroyer unit).
That way if they're both on the table one unit can use Extermination Strat and the other at least gets to reroll 1s for everything.
Yesterday was in a local tournament which had 4 Necron players out of 20,
Came join 5th with the list in my sig. The guy who tabled me also joined me at 5th lol (not much i can do against 180 orc boys with da jumps into my face. though did get him down to about 30 or so)
Guy who came first, was also Necrons. Using 3 DDA, 17 Destroyers and 6 Wraiths. was a brutal list to be fair. though dont think mephit benefited the destroyers much imo.
Scarabs work particularly well against DE because their best horde clearing weapons (poison) are wounding them on 4s. You do very much need some decent melee despite playing defensively due to how difficult it is to charge/movement block reavers without layers upon layers of scarabs, so I'd suggest including a few nephrekh wraiths that stay back to avoid the reaver's mortal wounds on charging so you can advance and charge in the wraiths to mulch through them as even though the reavers will get up to STR6 with 2 wounds the wraiths are still a great match. lots of tesla is also very much your friend in this as it works particularly well in overwatch as all your hits count as 3, and most of their armour saves are 4+ or worse.
If he is playing talos', BE VERY CAREFUL around them, they put out a metric feth tonne of damage to your vehicles and multiwound models while still being tough to kill since if you're playing them you are definitely using the +1 invul faction giving them a 4+. If you see them, run, and put your D arks and destroyers into them.
I'd also maybe swap out the d ark, if you math it out, unless you're somehow in range with the flayers without moving, regular destroyers and even just tesla tomb blades are outperforming it (Tesla tomb blades not so much but they will usually put out more damage, just less when your dice are hot). So if you have them I would recommend just grabbing some more destroyers since DE are pretty much all T6 anyway.
Appreciate the recommendation. Do you think this list is any better?
Scarabs work particularly well against DE because their best horde clearing weapons (poison) are wounding them on 4s. You do very much need some decent melee despite playing defensively due to how difficult it is to charge/movement block reavers without layers upon layers of scarabs, so I'd suggest including a few nephrekh wraiths that stay back to avoid the reaver's mortal wounds on charging so you can advance and charge in the wraiths to mulch through them as even though the reavers will get up to STR6 with 2 wounds the wraiths are still a great match. lots of tesla is also very much your friend in this as it works particularly well in overwatch as all your hits count as 3, and most of their armour saves are 4+ or worse.
If he is playing talos', BE VERY CAREFUL around them, they put out a metric feth tonne of damage to your vehicles and multiwound models while still being tough to kill since if you're playing them you are definitely using the +1 invul faction giving them a 4+. If you see them, run, and put your D arks and destroyers into them.
I'd also maybe swap out the d ark, if you math it out, unless you're somehow in range with the flayers without moving, regular destroyers and even just tesla tomb blades are outperforming it (Tesla tomb blades not so much but they will usually put out more damage, just less when your dice are hot). So if you have them I would recommend just grabbing some more destroyers since DE are pretty much all T6 anyway.
Appreciate the recommendation. Do you think this list is any better?
Yeah I think this would do much better against DE, For the CCB I would suggest just running a regular overlord with a warscythe since he can move 11" anyway with nephrekh, I would probably swap out the immortals for warriors if you have them and use the extra points saved from swapping the barge to fill it out. Reanimation is very powerful in smaller point games since they have a higher chance to survive a turn. This change also provides some more chaff to keep your destroyers and wraiths safe first turn. I would also give the overlord immortal pride and possibly even the +1 res orb if you cant find the points for a cryptek, otherwise take veil of darkness as the relic.
One thing to keep in mind with nephrekh, you can deep strike your destroyers for 1cp if you want to keep them safe, if you didn't want them across the board (which you probably dont since it's only 4x4) then you can leave a gap that through a thick chaff in front, can't be reached and filled in with enemy units, so you can plop them in and have them completely protected from an alpha strike. Although with only 4cp to use this will be determined heavily by how lethal an alpha strike they have, if not much then just deploy them behind your scarabs and warriors.
Hey dudes and dudettes, I have come up with a 1000pt list after all your awesome advice you've given me. Probably still not the best list of all time but it seems fun. What do you guys think?
Spoiler:
HQ - Cryptek w/ cloak (I know the other thing is better but I prefer the model)
TROOP
- 10x Gauss Immortals
- 13x Warriors
FAST ATTACK
- 6x Scarabs
- 3x Wraiths
- 3x Destroyers
HEAVY SUPPORT
- DDA
It's possible to divide 6 Scarabs into two 3 model units (more flexible) or do You want to keep unit number low? Those buggers agre great to block charges or score objectives in hidding (low profile).
Xyxel wrote: It's possible to divide 6 Scarabs into two 3 model units (more flexible) or do You want to keep unit number low? Those buggers agre great to block charges or score objectives in hidding (low profile).
There are advantages or disadvantages to both. Depending on what you need you should pick one or the other.
Also 6 models would let you reanimate them more effectively, best case using the stratagem with only one model left, giving you 5 dice.
Xyxel wrote: It's possible to divide 6 Scarabs into two 3 model units (more flexible) or do You want to keep unit number low? Those buggers agre great to block charges or score objectives in hidding (low profile).
There are advantages or disadvantages to both. Depending on what you need you should pick one or the other.
Also 6 models would let you reanimate them more effectively, best case using the stratagem with only one model left, giving you 5 dice.
...Please don't use Repair Subroutines on scarabs. I don't think you should use the stratagem at all, but in your situation you're unlikely to get more than 13 points back out of your 2 CP.
Ok. I just realized this for Nephrekh Translocation Beams "if a unit with this code advances, its models can move across MODELS and terrain as if they were not there."
This means you can effectively move and advance THROUGH a screen to lockup the big guns in the back. If you have slower stuff that charges the screen they cant fall back because you have your other guys behind them, effectively sandwhiching them. Being able to shut down screens/body block seems very interesting. Anyone used the phase through method with success?
Xyxel wrote: It's possible to divide 6 Scarabs into two 3 model units (more flexible) or do You want to keep unit number low? Those buggers agre great to block charges or score objectives in hidding (low profile).
There are advantages or disadvantages to both. Depending on what you need you should pick one or the other.
Also 6 models would let you reanimate them more effectively, best case using the stratagem with only one model left, giving you 5 dice.
...Please don't use Repair Subroutines on scarabs. I don't think you should use the stratagem at all, but in your situation you're unlikely to get more than 13 points back out of your 2 CP.
Completely agree, the only time i would use this stratagem is on my first turn, if my opponent shot my wraiths till the last one or two. (as i keep my cryptek with them for this reason)
Tomb Blades [10 PL, 210pts] . Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
. Tomb Blade: Shieldvanes
. . Two Tesla Carbines: 2x Tesla Carbine
Hi guys, here is my revised second option 1000 points TaC list for a to a tournament by the end of the month. Limit of 2 detachments, playing Eternal War Missions.
The plan with the above list is to drop on the opponent's face, disrupt his plan by killing his characters (between lord and Deathmarks I should be able to snipe one or two) and then let the destroyers do their work from behind the Immortal line.
I played 2 games with tyhem this weekend, but decided to change the list. My first iteration had a bunch of cheap Tomb Blades instead of the Immortals, but playing on a 4x4 does diminish the value of their mobility and I really missed the firepower of the Gauss Immortals on both of the games I played. On one of them I had Mortarion charge me with 1 wound remaining and proceed to wipe my destroyer squad on T3. I also switched out the Heavy Destroyer for a regular one.
My other contender list is still untested by me and consists of:
Spoiler:
Mephrit Battalion Szeras (trait: Immortal Pride, eldritch lance) Lord (Veil of Darkness, Staff of Light) Deceiver 20x Warriors 10x Immortas (Gauss) 5x Immortals (Tesla) 3x Scarabs
6 CPs
The lord allows everyone a re-roll on wounds and the entire force just drops in your face. Losing initiative is not so bad as we just deny flanks with the Deceiver then, likely bringing the enemy away from an objective on multi-objective missions.
I'm still undecided what to settle in for and I still need to test the latter list.
tl;dr - Little success with Nephrek Particle Beamer TBs at 1k points, table is small enough the added mobility doesn't pay off the lost firepower. - Destroyers are amazing with their DS and Re-roll everything Strat, especially against high-T multi-wound targets such as Mortarion. - Still undecided if I go Char assassin outrider or Deceiver silver-tide at 1k tourny.
Deathmarks don't actually kill Characters that well. They're either going to be bubble wrapped so you'll never get in Rapid Fire range, or they'll have good enough saves that you need way more Deathmarks. They're better suited for killing backfield weapon teams or dropping onto objectives.
Dynas wrote: Ok. I just realized this for Nephrekh Translocation Beams "if a unit with this code advances, its models can move across MODELS and terrain as if they were not there."
This means you can effectively move and advance THROUGH a screen to lockup the big guns in the back. If you have slower stuff that charges the screen they cant fall back because you have your other guys behind them, effectively sandwhiching them. Being able to shut down screens/body block seems very interesting. Anyone used the phase through method with success?
You can not. As far as I know you cant charge after advancing. Except with wraiths who can do this trick anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BUT
you can jumpf through screens and shoot characters close if poorly positioned.
Doctoralex wrote: Had a multiplayer today. Won't go too much into detail but....
14 Novokh Flayed Ones attacked a squad of Grey Knight Terminators..... thats 42 attacks, re-roll to hit, re-roll to wound.
......3 wounds dealt.....
I decide *feth this*, fall the Flayed ones back and Veil a squad of 10 Gauss Immortals nearby. Deals 7 wounds ><
AP is just too important. That's why I'll pretty much always stick with Mephrit.
Have you tried using wraiths or lychguard? Sounds like you were using the wrong tools for the job. Flayed Ones are anti-light infantry or single wound heavies. Not multi-wound heavy infantry like terminators.
Ditto for gauss blasters.
If you want to efficiently kill terminators, take wraiths (they deal 2D now), scythguard or destroyers.
Mephrit won't cure mismatch.
Any list got to be able to deal with msu, swarms, high armor, multiple wound and high HP.
All else being equal, if you land more shots (with a moving Sautekh for example), you're gonna wound more. Of course hitting armor 2+ with AP0 weapons won't work well.
stormcraft wrote: I think both Flyers are bad because they are way to easy to kill.
12 T6 3+ wounds will drop exremely easy.
My Fireraptor is 14 T7 3+ wound and can get a 5++ oder 5+++ depending on the list, and still drops regularly on T1.
Second, compare the firepower between a DoomSycthe and a Doomsday Ark:
W3 Shots S10 -4 D6 (on a 4+ unless Sautekh)
vs
W6 Shots S10 -5 D6 .
Sure the Ark has to stand still, but it costs less points and is waaaayy more durable because of QS.
PS:
Additionally the DS Stratagem is one of the worst ever!
Edit: one thing that annoys me about the codex is the amount of equipment exclusive to certain units. Why wouldn't a cryptek mount shadowlooms on a NS/DS, it's such a fragile unit and with a 5++ it would be that bit more survivable
Just want to reiterate that a D is merited for this unit. Nightscythes were 100 points in 7th edition, they could jink and were able to invasion beam without a stratagem a unit from off board. If they were destroyed the unit they were transporting went into reserves. Now they cost 160 points, can't jink, aren't a transport, are much easier to kill and can easily strand anything you put in the "tomb world" dead if destroyed. I lost a lone Nightscythe turn one to a couple Custodes shield captain's on bikes with two 9 man squads on the damn "tomb world" yesterday - had to spend the lousy CP stratagem to bring one in and lost the other squad. Will put my Nightscythes and Doomscythes back on the shelf after this - too expensive and delicate to play in 8th edition.
Werekill wrote: You can bring in two at once when destroyed, I believe. The emergency beams strat triggers the advanced beams one.
Incorrect. It should work that way but it doesnt. Enhanced Invasion Beams triggers on the NScythe or Monolith ability. Emergency Invasion Beam has its own set up rules that would not qualify.
I'm hoping that GW see that the new stratagems don't alleviate the problems our flyers face and either give them a point drop or some stat boost/new rule because for there points they are too easy a target
Aza'Gorod wrote: I'm hoping that GW see that the new stratagems don't alleviate the problems our flyers face and either give them a point drop or some stat boost/new rule because for there points they are too easy a target
Oh, good to see I'm not the only one that thinks they're not great.
arhurt wrote: Hi guys, here is my revised second option 1000 points TaC list for a to a tournament by the end of the month. Limit of 2 detachments, playing Eternal War Missions.
Basically just a Necron alpha strike.
Scarabs go after objectives.
CCB scoots towards action.
Everything else is going to be dropping in on the enemy's back door.
Flayed Ones can either be an immediate threat / vital distraction for all the shooters (they NEED to be dealt with before they hit front lines) or can be held back to grab any objectives that need grabbing in an emergency.
I'm ignoring the fact that the Deathmarks can target characters, as pointed out previously, it's better to use them for another function. The mortal wounds can stack up considerably against elite infantry or demons, but I feel like the -2 AP is better at everything else.
torblind wrote: The mortal wounds from the deathmarks don't come close to the benefit that -2AP gives the immortals, against normal targets.
I'm assuming the 1CP is for +1 to hit?
Against ridiculous invulsaves it makes a difference (2++/3++)
Deep strike, I think.
Ah. Well against most normal targets blasters are better. Against T6/T7 there is a slight advantage for the synaptic disintegrators due to S5/S4 being equal here. And against invul saves they are better. Also 4++ and some 5++
(I'm gonig to dice-hammer.com , punching the Deathmark numbers, click Add Army to add a new unit and punch in the Gauss numbers, then click next/prev to compare them
SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote: Have we decided on the best Dynasty for an Outrider detachment with Destroyers? I still can't decide.
Probably Nephrekh, because of the deep-striking stratagem and the mobility it adds to any Scarabs/Wraiths you want to add to the Outrider.
However, I'd just put them in the Sautekh Battalion if you bring one. With MWBD (which you should be able to give them, since you brought Imothekh.... right?) They move 13 + D6 inches while still hitting on 3+.
Basically just a Necron alpha strike.
Scarabs go after objectives.
CCB scoots towards action.
Everything else is going to be dropping in on the enemy's back door.
Flayed Ones can either be an immediate threat / vital distraction for all the shooters (they NEED to be dealt with before they hit front lines) or can be held back to grab any objectives that need grabbing in an emergency.
I did also consider something of a first turn denial, last turn surprize in the following list:
Just use the DS stratagem to keep the Immortals and Destroyers out T1 and your opponent can only shoot at the Scarabs (all the rest is characters). On your turn you bring everyone in and VoD the Cryptek and Lord. Now your opponent has to deal with 15 Immortals and 5 Destroyers with Cryptek and Lord support while the Nightbringer and any surviving scarab can start advancing towards them for a T2 counter-charge.
I'm ignoring the fact that the Deathmarks can target characters, as pointed out previously, it's better to use them for another function. The mortal wounds can stack up considerably against elite infantry or demons, but I feel like the -2 AP is better at everything else.
Almost assuredly the Immortals. MWs are nice if you roll hot, but +1S and AP-2 makes sticking regular wounds onto things way easier. Also skip the CP and just take them with a Veil of Darkness.
Basically just a Necron alpha strike.
Scarabs go after objectives.
CCB scoots towards action.
Everything else is going to be dropping in on the enemy's back door.
Flayed Ones can either be an immediate threat / vital distraction for all the shooters (they NEED to be dealt with before they hit front lines) or can be held back to grab any objectives that need grabbing in an emergency.
I did also consider something of a first turn denial, last turn surprize in the following list:
Just use the DS stratagem to keep the Immortals and Destroyers out T1 and your opponent can only shoot at the Scarabs (all the rest is characters). On your turn you bring everyone in and VoD the Cryptek and Lord. Now your opponent has to deal with 15 Immortals and 5 Destroyers with Cryptek and Lord support while the Nightbringer and any surviving scarab can start advancing towards them for a T2 counter-charge.
If your opponent can't kill 6 Scarabs, what the heck is he doing?
SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote: Have we decided on the best Dynasty for an Outrider detachment with Destroyers? I still can't decide.
Probably Nephrekh, because of the deep-striking stratagem and the mobility it adds to any Scarabs/Wraiths you want to add to the Outrider.
However, I'd just put them in the Sautekh Battalion if you bring one. With MWBD (which you should be able to give them, since you brought Imothekh.... right?) They move 13 + D6 inches while still hitting on 3+.
Also Sautekh has 2CP +1 to hit a wounded enemy in addition, for even more fun.
(And can give you CP back on 5+)
Seems like a worthwhile candidate to Nephrekh.
There is also Nihilakh with +1 Save/+1 Attack Stratagem, but its obviously geared for CC units, and is more fun with invulsaves, and the reroll-1 if stationary is completely wasted, so not very interesting really
Yea, I feel like the Nihilakh stratagem is a trap.
There are only three candidates who can be considered worth using the stratagem on: Shieldguard, Wraiths and the Vault.
And then, they either have to stand still, which would only be relevant for the Vault when he is finally in a good position.
Or be 3" near an objective. Or, more importantly, an objective of IMPORTANCE. If your opponent has no cards concerning the objective you are on and/or you are out of their threat range, your opponent will just ignore that unit. That's 2 CP down the drain.
Doctoralex wrote: Yea, I feel like the Nihilakh stratagem is a trap.
There are only three candidates who can be considered worth using the stratagem on: Shieldguard, Wraiths and the Vault.
And then, they either have to stand still, which would only be relevant for the Vault when he is finally in a good position.
Or be 3" near an objective. Or, more importantly, an objective of IMPORTANCE. If your opponent has no cards concerning the objective you are on and/or you are out of their threat range, your opponent will just ignore that unit. That's 2 CP down the drain.
Yeah, also Wraiths likely ahead of any scarabs well into smite range at this point, so 2++ doesn't really help there either.
I have a game with my necrons this week and want to test something new. Something aggressive...something destructive. Something without fat. Just pure power and destruction. What to you say to this nice list?
Spoiler:
want to run this fun list here:
Outrider Detachment - Nephrek
Cryptek with Chronometron and Veil of Darkness
2*6 Destroyers
3*3 Scarab Bases
1* 5 Tomb Blades with Tesla (2 with Shadowloom, 3 with Nebukucscope)
- The 5 Doomsday ark should be my long ranged fire support. Thanks to Sauthek they can advance when needed and still shoot with low power, but without -1 to hit. I also get the good WL-Trait.
- The Scarabs and Tomb Blades should run around and catch markers or do "stuff".
- The Destroyer should shock down and use their protocols. I know that CP are very low with 5 and I hope that the WL-Trait will give me 1-2 points more. But I see no way to change this without takig an other useless and expensive HQ :-).
- The Cryptek with Cloak should run to the destroyer landing point and give them the 5++ aura and the better regeneration. If he can't reach them (will depend on the table, where I shock them and so on) he will port them. Otherwise he will use his port later and hopefully do something fun with the Destroyers. This will depend completly on the game state.
Doctoralex wrote: Yea, I feel like the Nihilakh stratagem is a trap.
There are only three candidates who can be considered worth using the stratagem on: Shieldguard, Wraiths and the Vault.
And then, they either have to stand still, which would only be relevant for the Vault when he is finally in a good position.
Or be 3" near an objective. Or, more importantly, an objective of IMPORTANCE. If your opponent has no cards concerning the objective you are on and/or you are out of their threat range, your opponent will just ignore that unit. That's 2 CP down the drain.
Yeah, also Wraiths likely ahead of any scarabs well into smite range at this point, so 2++ doesn't really help there either.
As for Sautekh, you could deploy them on your back line I suppose, hope to be out of range of most things evil, hope they target your quantum shielding units or your wraiths instead, and then speed ahead 13.5" before still shooting at 3+ with MWBD
Melionodr wrote: I have a game with my necrons this week and want to test something new. Something aggressive...something destructive. Something without fat. Just pure power and destruction. What to you say to this nice list?
Spoiler:
want to run this fun list here:
Outrider Detachment - Nephrek
Cryptek with Chronometron and Veil of Darkness
2*6 Destroyers
3*3 Scarab Bases
1* 5 Tomb Blades with Tesla (2 with Shadowloom, 3 with Nebukucscope)
- The 5 Doomsday ark should be my long ranged fire support. Thanks to Sauthek they can advance when needed and still shoot with low power, but without -1 to hit. I also get the good WL-Trait.
- The Scarabs and Tomb Blades should run around and catch markers or do "stuff".
- The Destroyer should shock down and use their protocols. I know that CP are very low with 5 and I hope that the WL-Trait will give me 1-2 points more. But I see no way to change this without takig an other useless and expensive HQ :-).
- The Cryptek with Cloak should run to the destroyer landing point and give them the 5++ aura and the better regeneration. If he can't reach them (will depend on the table, where I shock them and so on) he will port them. Otherwise he will use his port later and hopefully do something fun with the Destroyers. This will depend completly on the game state.
This has got to be my favourite list I've seen so far. Personally used a list fairly similar but with the msu of immortals to get more cp.
Am tempted to use this list to see how well it runs. Think with Sauthek doomsdays it has a slight advantage in the mirror match. As you can move them and shoot lower powered shots at the opponents doomsdays with no negatives to hit.
Doctoralex wrote: Yea, I feel like the Nihilakh stratagem is a trap.
There are only three candidates who can be considered worth using the stratagem on: Shieldguard, Wraiths and the Vault.
And then, they either have to stand still, which would only be relevant for the Vault when he is finally in a good position.
Or be 3" near an objective. Or, more importantly, an objective of IMPORTANCE. If your opponent has no cards concerning the objective you are on and/or you are out of their threat range, your opponent will just ignore that unit. That's 2 CP down the drain.
Like everything in our book, it's situational. Nihilakh Dynasty should probably only be used against fast armies that will come to you (Orks/Tyranids/DE). Setting up correctly (with intervening scarab screens) means you *should* be able to mitigate 1st turn charges to your gunline, and since you didn't move your return volley now gets to reroll 1s to hit (plop a Lord behind them for rerolling Wound rolls of 1 too), then pop the stratagem on the unit most likely to be charged. They now get an extra attack and +1 Save vs a unit that they've more than likely whittled down in the shooting phase, get to reroll 1s on Overwatch (hopefully further whittling down the incoming enemy), and stand a good chance of surviving the assault.
Melionodr wrote: I have a game with my necrons this week and want to test something new. Something aggressive...something destructive. Something without fat. Just pure power and destruction. What to you say to this nice list?
Spoiler:
want to run this fun list here:
Outrider Detachment - Nephrek
Cryptek with Chronometron and Veil of Darkness
2*6 Destroyers
3*3 Scarab Bases
1* 5 Tomb Blades with Tesla (2 with Shadowloom, 3 with Nebukucscope)
- The 5 Doomsday ark should be my long ranged fire support. Thanks to Sauthek they can advance when needed and still shoot with low power, but without -1 to hit. I also get the good WL-Trait.
- The Scarabs and Tomb Blades should run around and catch markers or do "stuff".
- The Destroyer should shock down and use their protocols. I know that CP are very low with 5 and I hope that the WL-Trait will give me 1-2 points more. But I see no way to change this without takig an other useless and expensive HQ :-).
- The Cryptek with Cloak should run to the destroyer landing point and give them the 5++ aura and the better regeneration. If he can't reach them (will depend on the table, where I shock them and so on) he will port them. Otherwise he will use his port later and hopefully do something fun with the Destroyers. This will depend completly on the game state.
This has got to be my favourite list I've seen so far. Personally used a list fairly similar but with the msu of immortals to get more cp.
Am tempted to use this list to see how well it runs. Think with Sauthek doomsdays it has a slight advantage in the mirror match. As you can move them and shoot lower powered shots at the opponents doomsdays with no negatives to hit.
Also looking at the list. You leave the shield vanes off the tomb blades?
Melionodr wrote: I have a game with my necrons this week and want to test something new. Something aggressive...something destructive. Something without fat. Just pure power and destruction. What to you say to this nice list?
Spoiler:
want to run this fun list here:
Outrider Detachment - Nephrek
Cryptek with Chronometron and Veil of Darkness
2*6 Destroyers
3*3 Scarab Bases
1* 5 Tomb Blades with Tesla (2 with Shadowloom, 3 with Nebukucscope)
- The 5 Doomsday ark should be my long ranged fire support. Thanks to Sauthek they can advance when needed and still shoot with low power, but without -1 to hit. I also get the good WL-Trait.
- The Scarabs and Tomb Blades should run around and catch markers or do "stuff".
- The Destroyer should shock down and use their protocols. I know that CP are very low with 5 and I hope that the WL-Trait will give me 1-2 points more. But I see no way to change this without takig an other useless and expensive HQ :-).
- The Cryptek with Cloak should run to the destroyer landing point and give them the 5++ aura and the better regeneration. If he can't reach them (will depend on the table, where I shock them and so on) he will port them. Otherwise he will use his port later and hopefully do something fun with the Destroyers. This will depend completly on the game state.
Maybe scytheguard will be better for ark support? Just protect them from heavy assault army.
I like this 5 ark list
I just finished playing a 2000 pt tourney just this Saturday and I'd like to report my experiences with at least a few highlights and some of my matchups. My list was definitely not optimized, I'm missing a Vault, multiple DDA, multiple Tomb Blade squads, and a few squads of Tesla Immortals. With that being said here's my list.
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment: Sautek Dynasty
HQ:
Imotekh *Warlord*
Cryptek with Cloak
Lord with Veil of Darkness
Troops:
10x Immortals with Gauss Blasters
10x Immortals with Tesla Carbines
11x Warriors
Elites:
Deceiver
Fast Attack:
5x Wraiths
Outrider Detachment: Mephrit Dynasty
HQ:
Cryptek with Canoptek Cloak
Fast Attack:
6x Scarabs
6x Destroyers
5x Tomb Blades with Gauss, Nebuloscopes, Shieldvanes
Ended up finishing 0-3 but all losses were extremely close games, I lost by literally just First Blood the first 2 games, and only lost the 3rd game by 3 points. My opponents were Tau, Grey Knights, and Ad Mech. Wraiths, Tesla Immortals, and Destroyers were definitely my all-star units in each game. Wraiths survived 3 turns against multiple rounds of shooting against 2 Riptides the first game and eventually chewing through 2 units of Fire Warriors and harassing a Riptide until the end. Game 2 the Wraiths completely wiped a squad of GK terminators that charged them(The look on his face was priceless after he learned they do 2 damage a piece now), then killed multiple strike squads, and put the hurting on his warlord before running and getting gunned down by the Destroyers. Next game they tied up a Knight for 3 turns and ended up finally dying due to bad rolls, the Deceiver finished the Knight off but unfortunately he used a command point and forced the explosion right on the middle objective and took out 5 Gauss Immortals, 6 Tesla Immortals, and put 5 wounds on the Deceiver. Warriors were completely useless each game, scarabs chewed up a unit before they died. Seems like everyone underestimated the scarabs. So what has everyone been having the most success with?
Melionodr wrote: Thanks to Sauthek they can advance when needed and still shoot with low power, but without -1 to hit.
Note that if they advance, they do take a -1 to hit ("Relentless Advance" negates the -1 to hit from moving and firing heavy weapons, and turns heavy weapons into assault so that they can advance and shoot, but with the normal -1 to hit).
So they can stand still and shoot full power, move and shoot low power at -0, or advance and shoot low power at -1.
torblind wrote: The mortal wounds from the deathmarks don't come close to the benefit that -2AP gives the immortals, against normal targets.
I'm assuming the 1CP is for +1 to hit?
Against ridiculous invulsaves it makes a difference (2++/3++)
Deep strike, I think.
Ah. Well against most normal targets blasters are better. Against T6/T7 there is a slight advantage for the synaptic disintegrators due to S5/S4 being equal here. And against invul saves they are better. Also 4++ and some 5++
(I'm gonig to dice-hammer.com , punching the Deathmark numbers, click Add Army to add a new unit and punch in the Gauss numbers, then click next/prev to compare them
We ran the Deathmark numbers way back near the middle of this thread-
Mephrit Deathmarks with a Lord nearby to give the reroll 1s to-wound are quite lethal (even more so if you give them Talent for Annihilation).
Building a little Mephrit hit squad of:
1x Lord (Staff +Veil*)
10x Immortals* (Gauss)
10x Deathmarks
Gives you something that should neuter anything you point it at. A handy little pocket alpha strike, perfect to accompany 5-6 deep striking Nephrekh Destroyers. (and if you want to go crazy, you can add 5x Flayed Ones as a buffer between the shooters and their target as a CC buffer. As a threat that absolutely must be dealt with they should take some of the heat off of your other guys. Either that or hey, they could strike it lucky and make the charge to tie up anything that survived! Win-win)
Not played 40k since 5th edition, wanted to get back into the game so I picked up the Necron Codex. Read through the thread and I agree with most of the conclusions so far. The Nephrekh outrider found its way into my list, destroyers and scarabs seem too good to leave out and the code benefits those units really well (alpha striking destroyers, quick moving scarabs for objective grabbing). I went cheap for the HQ though, just a cloaktek to help out the Destroyers when they appear. Though I went pretty cheap for all my HQ choices to fit in the units I wanted, looking for ratings on my 2k list, mix of Sautekh/Nephrekh:
Spoiler:
Sautekh Battillion +3 CP
94 Overlord (Warlord) -Staff of Light
-Trait: Hyperlogical Strategist
-Artifact: Veil of Darkness
95 Cryptek -Staff of Light
-Chronometron
496 Tesseract Vault -Antimatter Meteor
-Sky of Falling Stars
-Cosmic Fire
-Seismic Assault
2000 total
Had to cut down the Immortal squad slightly to get everything, but with x2 DDA and the Tesseract Vault hopefully they will be absorbing lots of enemy fire. I do think I'll struggle against big alpha strike armies or fast armies, looking for advice or experience!
Warriors in units of 20 are better for blobbing on objectives and screening other things. I would bring a unit of 20 just for those purposes, but 2 units is probably too many unless you're just trying to fit points.
moonsmite wrote: Yesterday was in a local tournament which had 4 Necron players out of 20,
Came join 5th with the list in my sig. The guy who tabled me also joined me at 5th lol (not much i can do against 180 orc boys with da jumps into my face. though did get him down to about 30 or so)
Guy who came first, was also Necrons. Using 3 DDA, 17 Destroyers and 6 Wraiths. was a brutal list to be fair. though dont think mephit benefited the destroyers much imo.
I tell you it's weird seeing other necrons at tournaments, I only had two at mine this weekend (myself and one other) and the reaction is always like:
Spoiler:
I think we might be seeing more of us though, when I came in the store was almost sold out of Necrons, and after my almost win (got second by going 3-0) lots of people expressed interest in starting necrons. The dirty secret though is I feel I won more despite my necrons than because of them. It's probably just the combination of me being rusty with necrons after a long break, and it being a new list I hadn't worked the kinks out of yet.
The first was a mortarion/pox walker farm, which I won by isolating mortarion, killing him the second round. He held his pox walkers back to keep them out of my range while playing with his cultist forward, so I just used MWBD Tesla Immortals to kill all of his cultist in a single volley, which forced him to place his new pox walkers in his deployment zone (within cohesion of the existing pox walkers). I then kept him off of the objectives by rushing the pox walker blob with my wraiths, while Morty got killed by destroyers and tomb blades. Then I just collapsed the two halves of my army on him, and we hit time on the fourth round. My opponent was so afraid of losing morty that he deployed him away from the main body of my army thinking he would be safe to flank, but deep striking destroyers and fast moving tomb blades were able to win that fight with fairly minimal losses, after that it was almost a 2 to 1 points advantage in my favor so it was literally just moping up. I feel like I won this one because I was the better problem solver, not because my army was better than his, if he had come right at me with his whole force instead of trying to flank I would have been in trouble.
Second was also against death guard, just a solid list with a mix drones, pox walkers, plague marines, lead by typhus, a lord of contagion, and a DP. The long and the short is I won by trading better. We met at the middle of the board, due to deployment he had a hard time concentrating fire, and deployed wide and shallow. Things were pretty even until my wraiths broke through his line and killed typhus, his plague caster, and whatever the dude with bell is. After that you could see the fight leave my opponents eyes, he tried a deep strike charge on my immortals but failed and lost his terminators and lord of contagion. After that he conceded. Necrons traded fairly well, he lost his DP and I lost My D-lord, and were able to hold the line, it was anyone's game until the wraiths did their thing. His HQ would have been perfectly safe against any other threat, they were properly screened against deep strike and far enough back to not be consolidated into. Wraith Flight let them break off from the DP, find a hole, and gut his leadership.
Third was against Tau, objectives and setup were important for this one so I'll briefly go over them. The store mission had three objectives, one of the southwest, one in the middle of the board, and one in the northeast. The deployment for this one was quadrants with a 9" no mans land in the center. I won the roll to chose quadrant and I chose the south east. My plan was to use nephrek to rush the objectives with my warriors and immortals, and cross the T on him. His plan was to huddle up deep in the northwest corner thin out my ranks and then go claim objectives. He was running a ghostkeel, 3 stealth suits, a riptide, three broadsides, some fire warriors and pathfinders. during deployment I placed the wraiths in the middle of my line out in the open, to give them a straight line to his troops if I went first, and if I lost the roll off to bait him into wasting his alpha strike on my wraiths. After I deployed he set up his Ghostkeel and stealth suits on the objective in the north east. He won the roll off and took the bait, dropped his entire armies firepower into my wraiths, and killed all but one. It's at this point I'm thinking I might be in trouble, he nuked one of my strongest units, and is already contesting one of the objectives I had counted on. I drop the 2 cp to have the wraiths roll RP and get two back, and send them with the d-lord off to deal with the stealth suits and ghost keel. I knew at half strength they would likely get overwatched off of the board if they went after his main blob. and they spent the rest fo the game playing cat and mouse with his infiltrators killing his drones and stealth suits but never sealing the deal on the ghostkeel. I drop the destroyers in close to his blob, and zoom the tomb blades up. his is forking his novacharge to get the invul and his broadsides are in cover, so I didn't waste shots on them and instead went for the pathfinders and fire warriors. I drop the pathfinders and a unit of fire warriors, and maul another unit. He then proceeds to beat the crap out of my tomb blades and destroyers with the riptide and broadsides, thanks to RP I was getting some back every round so it takes him about three shooting phases to kill them all. However while he was killing them I get the other unit of fire warriors and kill most of his drones. Then my opponent realizes what just happened, without marker lights his offense is much weaker, and he has lost almost all of his anti-infantry fire power with the deaths of the drones and the fire warriors. My obsec infantry are just camping out on two of the objectives, and my wraiths chase him ghostkeel off of the third one. The final score is like 11 to 3. I should have lost this match, his list was flat better than mine, more firepower, more tricks, better synergy. I won because I was able to keep him off of objectives, took out his marker lights early on, and eliminated his ability to deal with my infantry (at great cost to my own army in the process). Though i can mark making tau charge me off of my bucket list, as he had to charge his riptide at my last tomb blade to kill it.
Necronplayer wrote: C'tan shards can't gain the benefit from dynasty codes, but can they proc things for the the <dynasty> detachment they are in?
Ex. C'tan shard and Methodical Destruction
I'm leaning towards a no on this, but can someone confirm?
I don't see why not? They are <dynasty>. You're not allowed to benefit from the dynastic codes, but they don't say anything about stratagems.
Edit: I should mention that TV's are dynasty. The other shards aren't.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, while looking through I noticed a typo. There are rules for "C'tan Shard", but there are no units called "C'tan Shard" only "C'tan Shards".
I doubt that anyone would ever be padantic to try and get advantage from it, but it's there.
So I've tried running the Transcendent C'tan twice, and thought I'd share my experiences thus far.
Both games were at the 1000pts, for context.
My conclusion from its performance is that Cosmic Tyrant is nearly mandatory from an efficiency perspective. If you're not casting two powers a turn, the c'tan is unlikely to be earning its points worth. It may be a playstyle thing, but I found that the chance of rolling Cosmic Tyrant and another desirable trait for fractured personality wasn't worth the risk.
The other traits might make it more durable, or make it faster, but it just tries to turn the c'tan into smth it wasn't meant to be, imho. It isn't really meant to be a CC monster/roadblock, we have wraiths and scarabs for that. The main draw was the powers, and if you only fling d3 mortal wounds a turn...
Gonna be running a Tesseract Vault next, just to see if the strategy of running a mortal wounds spam build makes sense. If it does make such a big difference, i might just forgo rolling for fractured personality next time.
I've been trying to work out a good loadout for wraiths. For me, it seems the best loadout would be claws + pistols with maybe a single whip.
Whips are nice, but they add to the cost of a wraiths. Still, the idea of being guaranteed attacks in the fight phase is tempting, which is why just one might be a good idea.
I'm not sold on beamers. Those are pretty pricey and don't really deal that much damage. Not to mention that unless you are running sautekh, you will be receiving hit penalties. Is it worth fielding one, or should I not bother?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I've been trying to work out a good loadout for wraiths.
For me, it seems the best loadout would be claws + pistols with maybe a single whip.
Whips are nice, but they add to the cost of a wraiths. Still, the idea of being guaranteed attacks in the fight phase is tempting, which is why just one might be a good idea.
I'm not sold on beamers. Those are pretty pricey and don't really deal that much damage. Not to mention that unless you are running sautekh, you will be receiving hit penalties.
Is it worth fielding one, or should I not bother?
I would just run them with no extra weapons.
As you pointed out, the guns don't do that much damage, or inflate the cost unnecessarily. Whip coils, while nice, are somewhat redundant. I say this because wraiths can fall back and charge, ensuring that they hit first in most cases.
In the event that you are charged, it is relatively unlikely that the opponent can wipe them all out in CC. Those few units that can would probably shrug off whatever retaliatory strike you were hoping to pull off anyway.
I'd personally save the points to try and get more CP so I can use RP on the wraiths, but YMMV of course.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I've been trying to work out a good loadout for wraiths.
For me, it seems the best loadout would be claws + pistols with maybe a single whip.
Whips are nice, but they add to the cost of a wraiths. Still, the idea of being guaranteed attacks in the fight phase is tempting, which is why just one might be a good idea.
I'm not sold on beamers. Those are pretty pricey and don't really deal that much damage. Not to mention that unless you are running sautekh, you will be receiving hit penalties.
Is it worth fielding one, or should I not bother?
I would just run them with no extra weapons.
As you pointed out, the guns don't do that much damage, or inflate the cost unnecessarily. Whip coils, while nice, are somewhat redundant. I say this because wraiths can fall back and charge, ensuring that they hit first in most cases.
In the event that you are charged, it is relatively unlikely that the opponent can wipe them all out in CC. Those few units that can would probably shrug off whatever retaliatory strike you were hoping to pull off anyway.
I'd personally save the points to try and get more CP so I can use RP on the wraiths, but YMMV of course.
I agree with just running them plain. They are already expensive as is, once you start adding options they just get too expensive.
I agree with just running them plain. They are already expensive as is, once you start adding options they just get too expensive.
How about keeping just one or perhaps two, if you expect them to get charged. If they chip a wound or two of someone, in a pure isolated mathematical sense, they likely would make their 6pt back again, a wound on a multiwound model certainly is costed at more than 6pt. A unit of cheap hordes likely won't lose "utility value" worth 6pt, but its something to keep in mind.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ah, its 9pt, but still
willow wrote: So I've tried running the Transcendent C'tan twice, and thought I'd share my experiences thus far.
Both games were at the 1000pts, for context.
My conclusion from its performance is that Cosmic Tyrant is nearly mandatory from an efficiency perspective. If you're not casting two powers a turn, the c'tan is unlikely to be earning its points worth. It may be a playstyle thing, but I found that the chance of rolling Cosmic Tyrant and another desirable trait for fractured personality wasn't worth the risk.
The other traits might make it more durable, or make it faster, but it just tries to turn the c'tan into smth it wasn't meant to be, imho. It isn't really meant to be a CC monster/roadblock, we have wraiths and scarabs for that. The main draw was the powers, and if you only fling d3 mortal wounds a turn...
Gonna be running a Tesseract Vault next, just to see if the strategy of running a mortal wounds spam build makes sense. If it does make such a big difference, i might just forgo rolling for fractured personality next time.
Thoughts?
That's what I've been thinking too about the T. C'tan. However, 225 points just for some Mortal Wounds per turn? I dunno... A C'tan is meant to get stuck in.
However, what is your opinion on the Nightbringer compared to the T. C'tan? He's 15 points cheaper, has a powerful ranged attack and is better against any non-vehicle unit that is T4+.
rvd1ofakind wrote: So uhhh Necrons won the first GT after codex with vault. ._.
Spoiler:
What WL trait did he use? I could see reroll charge working, or -1 Damage if he really wanted to be unkillable, maybe the reroll to wound or +D3 attacks vs chars?
It's a nice fast list, it might struggle vs a parkinglot thought, with just the Destroyers+HD for kinda anti-tank. The wraiths and C'tan(s) could do some work vs vehicles as well I guess.
rvd1ofakind wrote: So uhhh Necrons won the first GT after codex with vault. ._.
Spoiler:
What WL trait did he use? I could see reroll charge working, or -1 Damage if he really wanted to be unkillable, maybe the reroll to wound or +D3 attacks vs chars?
It's a nice fast list, it might struggle vs a parkinglot thought, with just the Destroyers+HD for kinda anti-tank. The wraiths and C'tan(s) could do some work vs vehicles as well I guess.
Impressive. Makes me happy on the inside. My question is where is the second artifact he took? Am I missing something?
rvd1ofakind wrote: So uhhh Necrons won the first GT after codex with vault. ._.
Spoiler:
What WL trait did he use? I could see reroll charge working, or -1 Damage if he really wanted to be unkillable, maybe the reroll to wound or +D3 attacks vs chars?
It's a nice fast list, it might struggle vs a parkinglot thought, with just the Destroyers+HD for kinda anti-tank. The wraiths and C'tan(s) could do some work vs vehicles as well I guess.
Impressive. Makes me happy on the inside. My question is where is the second artifact he took? Am I missing something?
It's probably a VoD for the cryptek to veil the warriors in Mephrit range when the melee group (DLord+Wraiths+C'tan) reaches their lines?
rvd1ofakind wrote: So uhhh Necrons won the first GT after codex with vault. ._.
Spoiler:
What WL trait did he use? I could see reroll charge working, or -1 Damage if he really wanted to be unkillable, maybe the reroll to wound or +D3 attacks vs chars?
It's a nice fast list, it might struggle vs a parkinglot thought, with just the Destroyers+HD for kinda anti-tank. The wraiths and C'tan(s) could do some work vs vehicles as well I guess.
Impressive. Makes me happy on the inside. My question is where is the second artifact he took? Am I missing something?
It's probably a VoD for the cryptek to veil the warriors in Mephrit range when the melee group (DLord+Wraiths+C'tan) reaches their lines?
Oh, you know, now that I think about it. Yeah, you don't put that relic on your roster, correct? You can choose it last minute, right before the battle.
I'm ignoring the fact that the Deathmarks can target characters, as pointed out previously, it's better to use them for another function. The mortal wounds can stack up considerably against elite infantry or demons, but I feel like the -2 AP is better at everything else.
1) You can do mephrit Deathmarks.
2) They can intercept an ennemy deepstriking (almost every list has one), effectively shooting twice on that turn.
3) Give em a lord to reroll 1s to wound and improve the chance of MW.
I have a combo: C'Tan Deceiver who dispalces with a lord (and any other unit of your choice if you roll 2 or 3 on your D3, but the lord is there). Then the Deathmarks can deepstrike by themselves in range of the lord and do their thing.
Necronplayer wrote: C'tan shards can't gain the benefit from dynasty codes, but can they proc things for the the <dynasty> detachment they are in?
Ex. C'tan shard and Methodical Destruction
I'm leaning towards a no on this, but can someone confirm?
Even if the Vault could take a dynastic code, I'm not sure it would be worth it as you would need a Supreme Command Detachment with x3 HQ choices I think? Our HQ's are a bit limited to begin with, so the only option would be to run x3 Vaults, which wouldn't make you many friends (but would be a strong army if you have the wallet for it).
The Necron stratagems are usable but the code stratagems are off for the vault I think.
Dynasty keywords are not the same thing as Dynasty codes. Even if a unit cannot gain the benefit of a Dynasty code (because it has the C'tan keyword, or is in a super-heavy auxillary detachment), they still count as a <Dynasty> unit as long as they have the keyword. This means that they can still use strategems and trigger things like Methodical Destruction.
T.Vaults only don't get the benefits from Dynasty Codes if taken as Super Heavy Auxiliary. The restriction isn't there for the other methods of taking them in other Lord of War ok detachments.
...
But does anyone even *have* three Vaults to try out that Deceiver Mega Nuke idea?
(I mean, I posted it as a joke, but the Deceiver Bomb itself was initially a joke idea that turned out to actually be useable, so who knows how this ridiculous thing might actually function in a competitive setting?)
willow wrote: So I've tried running the Transcendent C'tan twice, and thought I'd share my experiences thus far.
Both games were at the 1000pts, for context.
My conclusion from its performance is that Cosmic Tyrant is nearly mandatory from an efficiency perspective. If you're not casting two powers a turn, the c'tan is unlikely to be earning its points worth. It may be a playstyle thing, but I found that the chance of rolling Cosmic Tyrant and another desirable trait for fractured personality wasn't worth the risk.
The other traits might make it more durable, or make it faster, but it just tries to turn the c'tan into smth it wasn't meant to be, imho. It isn't really meant to be a CC monster/roadblock, we have wraiths and scarabs for that. The main draw was the powers, and if you only fling d3 mortal wounds a turn...
Gonna be running a Tesseract Vault next, just to see if the strategy of running a mortal wounds spam build makes sense. If it does make such a big difference, i might just forgo rolling for fractured personality next time.
Thoughts?
That's what I've been thinking too about the T. C'tan. However, 225 points just for some Mortal Wounds per turn? I dunno... A C'tan is meant to get stuck in.
However, what is your opinion on the Nightbringer compared to the T. C'tan? He's 15 points cheaper, has a powerful ranged attack and is better against any non-vehicle unit that is T4+.
The one thing that keeps me coming back to the mortal wounds "spam" is that they cut through invul saves and high toughness. Stuff like Shield Captains need to be careful about their positioning when you bring out a C'tan that can fling 2D3 wounds with no denies or saves allowed.
I haven't actually thought about the Nightbringer that much since my lists are generally more shooty, trying to not avoid getting locked in combat etc. A Nightbringer in that list would be a very expensive countercharge unit. The other thing that worries me about getting stuck in is that there are a lot of things out there that can easily take out a C'tan in melee. (I'm looking at you Slamguinius)
Having said that, it's a good point you make about the Nightbringer, I'll have to mull it over. He definitely brings the killy in a more traditional sense.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skoffs wrote: T.Vaults only don't get the benefits from Dynasty Codes if taken as Super Heavy Auxiliary. The restriction isn't there for the other methods of taking them in other Lord of War ok detachments.
...
But does anyone even *have* three Vaults to try out that Deceiver Mega Nuke idea?
(I mean, I posted it as a joke, but the Deceiver Bomb itself was initially a joke idea that turned out to actually be useable, so who knows how this ridiculous thing might actually function in a competitive setting?)
Vaults still have the <C'tan Shard> Keyword though. If I haven't read the Codex wrongly, that means they can never benefit from the Dynasty Codes.
I sadly only have one Vault, as a nice fluffy centre-piece for my army. Never thought I'd see the day where it'd be so competitive that people would want three....
skoffs wrote: T.Vaults only don't get the benefits from Dynasty Codes if taken as Super Heavy Auxiliary. The restriction isn't there for the other methods of taking them in other Lord of War ok detachments.
...
But does anyone even *have* three Vaults to try out that Deceiver Mega Nuke idea?
(I mean, I posted it as a joke, but the Deceiver Bomb itself was initially a joke idea that turned out to actually be useable, so who knows how this ridiculous thing might actually function in a competitive setting?)
Codex 108: ctan shard can never benefit from dynasty code. Valut have ctan key word.
skoffs wrote: T.Vaults only don't get the benefits from Dynasty Codes if taken as Super Heavy Auxiliary. The restriction isn't there for the other methods of taking them in other Lord of War ok detachments.
...
But does anyone even *have* three Vaults to try out that Deceiver Mega Nuke idea?
(I mean, I posted it as a joke, but the Deceiver Bomb itself was initially a joke idea that turned out to actually be useable, so who knows how this ridiculous thing might actually function in a competitive setting?)
Ive git two and am actively looking for my third. If i continue having an issue i may just use the pylon. Current list being:
Spoiler:
Super heavy detachment
Vault 496
Vault 496
Pylon 550
Outrider
Cloaltek 85
Deceiver 225
Scarab 3x3
Leaves 41 points to play with. Undecided on dynasty. Mephrit makes those strength 7 tesla that much scarier. Nihilakh venefits the pylon and has the potential to give a vault a 3++ if it needs it. Sautekh would give me the potential cp regen.
skoffs wrote: T.Vaults only don't get the benefits from Dynasty Codes if taken as Super Heavy Auxiliary. The restriction isn't there for the other methods of taking them in other Lord of War ok detachments.
...
But does anyone even *have* three Vaults to try out that Deceiver Mega Nuke idea?
(I mean, I posted it as a joke, but the Deceiver Bomb itself was initially a joke idea that turned out to actually be useable, so who knows how this ridiculous thing might actually function in a competitive setting?)
Ive git two and am actively looking for my third. If i continue having an issue i may just use the pylon. Current list being:
Spoiler:
Super heavy detachment
Vault 496
Vault 496
Pylon 550
Outrider
Cloaltek 85
Deceiver 225
Scarab 3x3
Leaves 41 points to play with. Undecided on dynasty. Mephrit makes those strength 7 tesla that much scarier. Nihilakh venefits the pylon and has the potential to give a vault a 3++ if it needs it. Sautekh would give me the potential cp regen.
Yeah as we pointed out, Mephrit does nothing for all the C'tan. Still, 20 shots, 20 hits, at S7 with mathematical averages should still damage something. Does the pylon gain any benefits from Dynasty codes? I remember reading somewhere in this thread that it also didn't gain any benefit.
Not that it's not a good tactic mind you. 3 Vaults in your face with all them mortal wounds and tesla shots will tear people a new one.
skoffs wrote: T.Vaults only don't get the benefits from Dynasty Codes if taken as Super Heavy Auxiliary. The restriction isn't there for the other methods of taking them in other Lord of War ok detachments.
...
But does anyone even *have* three Vaults to try out that Deceiver Mega Nuke idea?
(I mean, I posted it as a joke, but the Deceiver Bomb itself was initially a joke idea that turned out to actually be useable, so who knows how this ridiculous thing might actually function in a competitive setting?)
Ive git two and am actively looking for my third. If i continue having an issue i may just use the pylon. Current list being:
Spoiler:
Super heavy detachment
Vault 496
Vault 496
Pylon 550
Outrider
Cloaltek 85
Deceiver 225
Scarab 3x3
Leaves 41 points to play with. Undecided on dynasty. Mephrit makes those strength 7 tesla that much scarier. Nihilakh venefits the pylon and has the potential to give a vault a 3++ if it needs it. Sautekh would give me the potential cp regen.
Yeah as we pointed out, Mephrit does nothing for all the C'tan. Still, 20 shots, 20 hits, at S7 with mathematical averages should still damage something. Does the pylon gain any benefits from Dynasty codes? I remember reading somewhere in this thread that it also didn't gain any benefit.
Was likely my post you read. Pylon gains codes just fine the issue is super-heavy auxilary detatchments do not. So outside if strategems the pylon only really gets a boost from nihilakh. Mephrit is a bit of over kill as it already has -4 ap. For the other three the pylon cant move so its kinda pointless.
Woolly.Mammoth wrote: I notice nobody takes res orbs. Are they just considered not worth it?
From what I've gathered, most people don't like Silver Tide or infantry blobs in general, so Rez Orbs don't add much to the list. But are they bad? No, not at all.
Woolly.Mammoth wrote: I notice nobody takes res orbs. Are they just considered not worth it?
Its a one use 35 point item. So no, not really, especially when compared to earlier incarnations. Its only really worth it if you use it on destroyers or lots of warriors, where even 1 destroyer will pay for the orb, and you have so many RP rolls with warriors you're bound to get at least 3.
Woolly.Mammoth wrote: I notice nobody takes res orbs. Are they just considered not worth it?
Its a one use 35 point item. So no, not really, especially when compared to earlier incarnations. Its only really worth it if you use it on destroyers or lots of warriors, where even 1 destroyer will pay for the orb, and you have so many RP rolls with warriors you're bound to get at least 3.
Tomb Blades are pretty efficient for the Orb as well, but yeah overall I wouldn't buy the item at all.
skoffs wrote: T.Vaults only don't get the benefits from Dynasty Codes if taken as Super Heavy Auxiliary. The restriction isn't there for the other methods of taking them in other Lord of War ok detachments.
Codex 108: ctan shard can never benefit from dynasty code. Valut have ctan key word.
Ah, I see the issue.
Spoiler:
Likely correct but could probably do with a FAQ to clarify whether it's the actual C'tan Shards or whether it's everything with the keyword. (if the later it really should have been worded better, ie. "Units with the C'TAN SHARD faction keyword.")
Woolly.Mammoth wrote: I notice nobody takes res orbs. Are they just considered not worth it?
Its a one use 35 point item. So no, not really, especially when compared to earlier incarnations. Its only really worth it if you use it on destroyers or lots of warriors, where even 1 destroyer will pay for the orb, and you have so many RP rolls with warriors you're bound to get at least 3.
Tomb Blades are pretty efficient for the Orb as well, but yeah overall I wouldn't buy the item at all.
Can't use it on them since they're not <Infantry>.
I played a 750pt game at my FLGS' league night last Thursday. It was my first game since probably July, and I have to say I'm much happier with how the army plays than I was with the index. Here's my list:
Spoiler:
HQ
Overlord w/ Voltaic Staff and Rez Orb (I had the points, so I went ahead and took it) and the character sniping WL trait
Troops
5x Immortals w/ Tesla Carbines (haven't built my Gauss Immortals yet, and I like to play WYSIWYG when I can)
Elites
C'Tan Shard of the Deceiver w/ Time's Arrow and Sky of Falling Stars
5x Deathmarks
FA
3x Tomb Blades w/ Gauss Blaster, Shieldvanes, and Shadowlooms
All w/ <Mephrit>
I began with my standard pre-game ritual of constructing an obelisk to the dice gods (I always carry a d4 for this purpose). My opponent was running Space Wolves. Don't know the exact loadout, but she had 5 Wulfen, 5 Intercessors, 5 Hellblasters, 10 Bloodclaws, and a Wolf Lord if I remember right. I built a Patrol detachment, but we didn't use stratagems/CP because we were both pretty new to 8th (I think she said this was only her third game of 40k, actually). I got first turn, and proceeded to roll a "1" for Grand Illusion (off to a good start, I see). I dropped the Deceiver right in front of the Wulfen, Hellblasters, and Wolf Lord. I dropped the Tomb Blades in behind the Hellblasters. Falling Stars Killed a Wulfen and a Hellblaster. Tomb Blades took out another two Hellblasters in the shooting phase, and the Tesla Immortals managed to kill two Bloodclaws. The remaining two Hellblasters took out my Tomb Blades (but they had already done what I wanted them to), and then charged the Deceiver along with the Wulfen and Wolf Lord. This is when the dice gods really started to favor me. Apparently, they looked upon the obelisk I had constructed in their honor favorably. Wulfen managed to do one wound to the Deceiver, and he did four to the Wolf Lord (who completely wiffed as did the Hellblasters). In my next turn, the Deceiver dropped another Hellblaster, one Intercessor, and a Wulfen with Falling Stars. I brought in my Deathmarks behind the Intercessors and killed two more of them, and, finally getting within half range, my immortals killed four Bloodclaws (that -1 AP really makes a difference, even on Tesla). The Overlord failed to wound with his staff. In combat, I killed the last Hellblaster and dropped the Wolf Lord to one wound. My opponent finally managed to get a few wounds on the Deceiver, and dropped him down the three wounds. The Bloodclaws charged my Immortals and killed three of them, but then the dice gods smiled upon me again, and I rolled three 6s for RP the next turn. From here, the match was fairly even. I managed to kill the Wolf Lord, but my C'Tan powers stopped hitting, and I just couldn't get past the stormshield on her Wulfen (but I saved every wound she made against the Deceiver). She ended up conceding after round 3.
Woolly.Mammoth wrote: I notice nobody takes res orbs. Are they just considered not worth it?
From what I've gathered, most people don't like Silver Tide or infantry blobs in general, so Rez Orbs don't add much to the list. But are they bad? No, not at all.
What if you don't paint your Necrons silver? lol
I agree, there is too much good stuff in the codex to only take troops, and your opponent can burn down your units anyway.
I notice an orb has an annoying specification regarding troops. So you can't double res some Wraiths for example (after Repair Subroutines)
If you did want to do the 'silver tide', then one ghost ark is better than several orbs, for free. So there is not much to even want to use an Orb on.
Necrons tend to cost a lot of points because of RP. Does RP seem to be a big factor in games or are Necrons just generally overcosted?
Doomsday Arks seem popular. But what about a Tomb Sentinel? It can pop up and do basically the same thing but with 3 damage instead of D6. Less wounds and no QS, but higher T and save. No Flayer Array, but it's good in close combat and 13 points cheaper.
Also, If I were taking 2+ Doomday Arks, I would babysit them with a cloak cryptek and a spider for 2D3 healing as necessary.
Doomsday Arks seem popular. But what about a Tomb Sentinel? It can pop up and do basically the same thing but with 3 damage instead of D6. Less wounds and no QS, but higher T and save. No Flayer Array, but it's good in close combat and 13 points cheaper.
Also, If I were taking 2+ Doomday Arks, I would babysit them with a cloak cryptek and a spider for 2D3 healing as necessary.
And the Sentinel shines under Sautekh, which we want for our Warlord trait (generally speaking). Plus, it can have a Gloom Prism right up in the enemy's face, which is one of the few ways 'Crons can handle psykers.
Woolly.Mammoth wrote: I notice nobody takes res orbs. Are they just considered not worth it?
From what I've gathered, most people don't like Silver Tide or infantry blobs in general, so Rez Orbs don't add much to the list. But are they bad? No, not at all.
What if you don't paint your Necrons silver? lol
I agree, there is too much good stuff in the codex to only take troops, and your opponent can burn down your units anyway.
I notice an orb has an annoying specification regarding troops. So you can't double res some Wraiths for example (after Repair Subroutines)
If you did want to do the 'silver tide', then one ghost ark is better than several orbs, for free. So there is not much to even want to use an Orb on.
Necrons tend to cost a lot of points because of RP. Does RP seem to be a big factor in games or are Necrons just generally overcosted?
Doomsday Arks seem popular. But what about a Tomb Sentinel? It can pop up and do basically the same thing but with 3 damage instead of D6. Less wounds and no QS, but higher T and save. No Flayer Array, but it's good in close combat and 13 points cheaper.
Also, If I were taking 2+ Doomday Arks, I would babysit them with a cloak cryptek and a spider for 2D3 healing as necessary.
Yeah, RP never really makes a big difference in more competitive games because smart opponents won't let you roll for it. Especially on Warriors, because they're a big, easy target to snuff out. The Ghost Ark is good, but realistically too expensive to bring just for it's RP boosting ability.
Yeah, RP is an aide, not a crutch. If you rely too much on it you are going to suffer. If you are going to rely on it, you better stack those buffs, because you are going to need every one of them.
The Warlord trait that autopasses morale checks help here. Losing the last few models in a squad due to morale is never good thing. If you are running silver tide, I'd highly advise it.
How we feeling with the new Dark Eldar 'dex out? Is the answer just *More Tesla?* How do we pop that many vehicles? I think destroyers would perform that task admirably.
iGuy91 wrote: How we feeling with the new Dark Eldar 'dex out? Is the answer just *More Tesla?* How do we pop that many vehicles? I think destroyers would perform that task admirably.
Honestly even Immortals are fine for pooping the vehicles I'd think.
Deathmarks have a use against Wyches and their characters as they are less durable.
What about CCB? I don't see these in most lists. Isn't this a great option for a tanky lord with extended MWBD? I like the idea of having a warlord that won't die, especially with the command trait to get back all my precious CP.
I plan to take a fair amount of Tesla Immortals to counter horde lists, and so having a Overlord is essential. A cheap sword overlord is 87 points, or to put him on a CCB is 161. this is almost twice the points... is it worth it?
I've been trying to make a decent list with the Nemesor and Obyron. It's really not easy to take advantage of the mantle and their abilities/synergies efficiently. These are just my thoughts on them as their fluff is awesome, and I can't wait for a competent writer to make a novel/book series about them.
You don't want to have to veil the Nemesor somewhere and follow with the mantle, as that would mean you have 3HQs and 1 unit somewhere potentialy isolated. And if they are not isolated, why use the veil at all and not just walk it.
The deceiver is another option, but I'm just not a fan. That just leaves using a Night Scythe/Monolith, or use the wonder twins in a defensive list and not an alfastrike or refused flank tactic.
Using them in a defensive manner is possible, but then you have to make the HQ come within 12" of you instead of the other way around, which is just not going to happen and very inefficient as the power goes of at the start of his turn.
Besides, if you're going to play defensive why pick Sautekh at all?
So that just leaves a transport. And since a Night Scythe is just throwing points away imo, is the only option you really have a Monolith or Deceiver? or would they work in any list, and am I making this more difficult than it needs to be?
iGuy91 wrote: How we feeling with the new Dark Eldar 'dex out? Is the answer just *More Tesla?* How do we pop that many vehicles? I think destroyers would perform that task admirably.
Honestly even Immortals are fine for pooping the vehicles I'd think.
Deathmarks have a use against Wyches and their characters as they are less durable.
'
Fair enough. I think Venoms having a native -1 to hit makes them rough to fight since it negates tesla proccing. it seems like we wont have long to shoot with that much speed. Are counter assault units and scarab screens going to be the way to handle them?
Woolly.Mammoth wrote: What about CCB? I don't see these in most lists. Isn't this a great option for a tanky lord with extended MWBD? I like the idea of having a warlord that won't die, especially with the command trait to get back all my precious CP.
I plan to take a fair amount of Tesla Immortals to counter horde lists, and so having a Overlord is essential. A cheap sword overlord is 87 points, or to put him on a CCB is 161. this is almost twice the points... is it worth it?
I personally think so. Faster movement, an additional Gauss cannon (which finally got better this codex), with MWBD at a longer range, more wounds, more toughness. Yeah I think it's a solid choice depending on your army composition. And it's the perfect choice for the Lightning Field relic.
Odrankt wrote: Anni-barges or Particle shredder T.Stalkers are pretty good against D.Eldar with everything under T6 you be wounding on 3+ most of the time.
Vs Raiders and Ravagers, I could see the Annihilation Barges working well, but vs Venoms, they'll suffer, due to a lack of Tesla procs
iGuy91 wrote: How we feeling with the new Dark Eldar 'dex out? Is the answer just *More Tesla?* How do we pop that many vehicles? I think destroyers would perform that task admirably.
Honestly even Immortals are fine for pooping the vehicles I'd think.
Deathmarks have a use against Wyches and their characters as they are less durable.
'
Fair enough. I think Venoms having a native -1 to hit makes them rough to fight since it negates tesla proccing. it seems like we wont have long to shoot with that much speed. Are counter assault units and scarab screens going to be the way to handle them?
Honestly Scarabs won't be terribly handy against the vehicles. Wraiths would do more damage, and ultimately once outside the vehicles the Kalabites are useless. With Wyches you would probably screen with the Scarabs.
iGuy91 wrote: How we feeling with the new Dark Eldar 'dex out? Is the answer just *More Tesla?* How do we pop that many vehicles? I think destroyers would perform that task admirably.
Honestly even Immortals are fine for pooping the vehicles I'd think.
Deathmarks have a use against Wyches and their characters as they are less durable.
'
Fair enough. I think Venoms having a native -1 to hit makes them rough to fight since it negates tesla proccing. it seems like we wont have long to shoot with that much speed. Are counter assault units and scarab screens going to be the way to handle them?
Honestly Scarabs won't be terribly handy against the vehicles. Wraiths would do more damage, and ultimately once outside the vehicles the Kalabites are useless. With Wyches you would probably screen with the Scarabs.
I'm more wondering how to keep our big guns shooting against something that fast. Was thinking Scarabs since they are our best cheap bubble wrap.
I agree wraiths will be good vs DE, but they'll be making a lot of saves vs them, since their T5 is negated. In my initial play with them, they've been excellent.
Odrankt wrote: Anni-barges or Particle shredder T.Stalkers are pretty good against D.Eldar with everything under T6 you be wounding on 3+ most of the time.
Vs Raiders and Ravagers, I could see the Annihilation Barges working well, but vs Venoms, they'll suffer, due to a lack of Tesla procs
Use a Gauss Cannon Anni-barge in a Sautekh Spearhead Detachment so that way you are relying on the GCAP and Damage rather then the Tesla Cannons 6+ to pop. The d3 damage will also do a lot more reliable damage. And, you ignore moving and firing heavy weapons unless you advance.
Or, you could run a Supreme Command Detachment of 3 CCBs using GCs. No telsa to "rely" on and it's a way to get us a Tesseract Vault
Odrankt wrote: Anni-barges or Particle shredder T.Stalkers are pretty good against D.Eldar with everything under T6 you be wounding on 3+ most of the time.
Vs Raiders and Ravagers, I could see the Annihilation Barges working well, but vs Venoms, they'll suffer, due to a lack of Tesla procs
Use a Gauss Cannon Anni-barge in a Sautekh Spearhead Detachment so that way you are relying on the GCAP and Damage rather then the Tesla Cannons 6+ to pop. The d3 damage will also do a lot more reliable damage. And, you ignore moving and firing heavy weapons unless you advance.
Or, you could run a Supreme Command Detachment of 3 CCBs using GCs. No telsa to "rely" on and it's a way to get us a Tesseract Vault
You can take 3 gauss cannons on destroyers for less that the points of an AB. Then for 1CP you can re-roll all hits and wounds. Or you can take an AB for 8 sad no-AP attacks just for the extra strength which is almost meaningless at 7. Are there any other heavy weapons in the game with just no AP? The AB is the worst unit in the codex for me. What in this game could the AB possibly 'annihilate' ?
You can take an AB in Mephrit so that it gets some AP, but you can't even do it first turn because models start more than 24" away and it moves 12" therefore you cannot get 'within' 12" unless you advance in which case you cannot get extra hits on 6 which is the only reason it doesn't have AP in the first place. The only value in in an AB is that it is the cheapest model with QS and moves decently fast so it can like hold an objective or something.
You can take 3 gauss cannons on destroyers for less that the points of an AB. Then for 1CP you can re-roll all hits and wounds. Or you can take an AB for 8 sad no-AP attacks just for the extra strength which is almost meaningless at 7. Are there any other heavy weapons in the game with just no AP? The AB is the worst unit in the codex for me. What in this game could the AB possibly 'annihilate' ?
You can take an AB in Mephrit so that it gets some AP, but you can't even do it first turn because models start more than 24" away and it moves 12" therefore you cannot get 'within' 12" unless you advance in which case you cannot get extra hits on 6 which is the only reason it doesn't have AP in the first place. The only value in in an AB is that it is the cheapest model with QS and moves decently fast so it can like hold an objective or something.
While they are now pretty outclassed for their benefit, the point of taking an AB over destroyers and such used to be that they weren't too bad for the price (when destroyers points were high af) and kept your heavier weapons save instead of splitting between them between tomb blades and destroyers for example, and gained the benefit of higher toughness and quantum shielding. They have their place in their own form of keeping the gauss cannons safe, but with new points costs I do agree they have been left in the dirt a bit, they have gone from one of our better units to a pretty average one.
I've bought the new start collecting and I'll be getting Forgebane soon so I was wondering how I should assemble the Lychguards/Praetorians. I don't really like Lychguards because, too slow/cc, I feel like if I used them they'd just hang around a character to soak out the sniping. So I thought about making them Praetorians but I see that they might not be worth it as I see the D grade on page 1. But I've read like 10 pages without seeing the reasons, I think they've been discussed early on and never brought up again in the discussion. Could someone explain to me why they are not good? I guess it's because of their price isn't it?
Praets are fine. They just got overlooked because Dynasty codes and synergies being the new hotness, and they're designed to be a completely independant flex unit.
It's been my experience that people will commit much more to killing pricey/effective units as opposed to cheap ones. Thus you are much more likely to get a RP roll on warriors than destroyers.
Rez orbs are a punishment mechanic, in case someone fails to wipe out a unit, you can rez orb to retroactively negate more of their firepower. The problem is they are kind of crap at it, since Rez orb happens at the beginning of the turn, you can't move before you activate so no turning a CCB into an ambulance. To be useful you have to predict were your opponent is going to fail and have a rez orb holder standing by, which is easier said than done.
If I could change two things to add a little more spice to necrons play, I'd change enhanced resurrection protocols to be 1 CP, and make the res orb happen at the end of movement (like a ghost ark currently functions). Those changes would make us stakeholders in RP, rather than bystanders who watch as our opponent decides where and what gets RP.
mfw you are entering a tournament on the weekend with mainly destroyers, wraiths, tomb blades and scarabs and one person has 3 macharius vulcans and a twin stormcannon array leviathan. rip all of the things
I've just bought a monolith and a T.vault. now in terms on LoS, do they both count as blocking LoS to unit behind? Could the enemy shoot under them if they can see my warriors feet? Do they block movement? I assume the mono does, but the vault appears to be quite floaty and I'm not sure whether someone can aruge they can pass under it/semi through it? For combat do they need to get into base contact? Or hull contact?
Basically I have a list that is;
T.vault
Mono
Deciever
I illusion up the table and basically deny space, movement and shooting priority, with the deciever sandwiched between the two to prevent closest shooting. On my turn unloading crapton of mortal wounds per turn and start spewing out Tesla immortals. More of a fun list, but I feel it has a few ways to play. I mostly play maelstrom, so focus on placing objectives tightly together, then if the enemy picks that side I illusion up the board and deny access with my big squares, unload out the back and take good positioning. If he picks the side with little objectives, I can refuse flank, there's lots I feel I can do to mess with the opponents plans. But basically it all rides on how my big squares interact with LoS and movement.
So, I played a small points game against my Khorne Chaos buddy who only has like, 900 points. But, I wanted to put my crons on the table and see how they did. Obviously this doesn't speak about min/maxing and tournament level play, but I would like to share my experience.
My list was simple:
Novokh Dynasty
Overlord: Warscythe, Res Orb (Voidreaper)
Lord: Warscythe (Bloodscythe, 1 CP)
10x Warriors
10x Warriors
9x Tesla Immortals
Transcendant C'Tan
My buddy brought Kharne, a Terminator Lord, Khorne Berserkers, Chaos Marines, a Rhino, and a Helbrute, all World Eaters.
He let me have first turn and so I moved the T-C'tan up and rolled a 6 for Antimatter Meteor, wiping out 5 of his Marines alone. Then, using MWBD on the Tesla Immortals I wiped the rest of the squad. Then he ran everything else up, shooting and charging the C'tan by his second turn. It blew up and wiped two Berserkers. He almost wiped my immortals, but one survived and I got 5 back. Then, since he retreated his Rhino, I shot at Kharne and killed him over two turns with Gauss flayers. Then his terminator lord fell before he could strike in CC to my Overlord and Lord, also because I used Entropic Strike.
Again, none of this is really relevant to most of you, I just though I'd share my first experience.
I've just bought a monolith and a T.vault. now in terms on LoS, do they both count as blocking LoS to unit behind? Could the enemy shoot under them if they can see my warriors feet? Do they block movement? I assume the mono does, but the vault appears to be quite floaty and I'm not sure whether someone can aruge they can pass under it/semi through it? For combat do they need to get into base contact? Or hull contact?
Basically I have a list that is;
T.vault
Mono
Deciever
I illusion up the table and basically deny space, movement and shooting priority, with the deciever sandwiched between the two to prevent closest shooting. On my turn unloading crapton of mortal wounds per turn and start spewing out Tesla immortals. More of a fun list, but I feel it has a few ways to play. I mostly play maelstrom, so focus on placing objectives tightly together, then if the enemy picks that side I illusion up the board and deny access with my big squares, unload out the back and take good positioning. If he picks the side with little objectives, I can refuse flank, there's lots I feel I can do to mess with the opponents plans. But basically it all rides on how my big squares interact with LoS and movement.
Vault measures to base. Monolith has a rule which states measure to hull.
The monolith will block LOS, but as you've noticed, the Vault wouldn't. Models can pass underneath a Vault in the same way they would pass under a Flyer, with the standard restriction of staying more than 1" away unless they're charging in.
krodarklorr wrote: So, I played a small points game against my Khorne Chaos buddy who only has like, 900 points. But, I wanted to put my crons on the table and see how they did. Obviously this doesn't speak about min/maxing and tournament level play, but I would like to share my experience.
My list was simple:
Novokh Dynasty
Overlord: Warscythe, Res Orb (Voidreaper)
Lord: Warscythe (Bloodscythe, 1 CP)
10x Warriors
10x Warriors
9x Tesla Immortals
Transcendant C'Tan
My buddy brought Kharne, a Terminator Lord, Khorne Berserkers, Chaos Marines, a Rhino, and a Helbrute, all World Eaters.
He let me have first turn and so I moved the T-C'tan up and rolled a 6 for Antimatter Meteor, wiping out 5 of his Marines alone. Then, using MWBD on the Tesla Immortals I wiped the rest of the squad. Then he ran everything else up, shooting and charging the C'tan by his second turn. It blew up and wiped two Berserkers. He almost wiped my immortals, but one survived and I got 5 back. Then, since he retreated his Rhino, I shot at Kharne and killed him over two turns with Gauss flayers. Then his terminator lord fell before he could strike in CC to my Overlord and Lord, also because I used Entropic Strike.
Again, none of this is really relevant to most of you, I just though I'd share my first experience.
Thanks for the share.
Could you have played the C'Tan differently, or did letting him take the heat allow your other units to shoot him up afterwards? So that it was a meaningful sacrifice?
I've just bought a monolith and a T.vault. now in terms on LoS, do they both count as blocking LoS to unit behind? Could the enemy shoot under them if they can see my warriors feet? Do they block movement? I assume the mono does, but the vault appears to be quite floaty and I'm not sure whether someone can aruge they can pass under it/semi through it? For combat do they need to get into base contact? Or hull contact?
Basically I have a list that is;
T.vault
Mono
Deciever
I illusion up the table and basically deny space, movement and shooting priority, with the deciever sandwiched between the two to prevent closest shooting. On my turn unloading crapton of mortal wounds per turn and start spewing out Tesla immortals. More of a fun list, but I feel it has a few ways to play. I mostly play maelstrom, so focus on placing objectives tightly together, then if the enemy picks that side I illusion up the board and deny access with my big squares, unload out the back and take good positioning. If he picks the side with little objectives, I can refuse flank, there's lots I feel I can do to mess with the opponents plans. But basically it all rides on how my big squares interact with LoS and movement.
Vault measures to base. Monolith has a rule which states measure to hull.
The monolith will block LOS, but as you've noticed, the Vault wouldn't. Models can pass underneath a Vault in the same way they would pass under a Flyer, with the standard restriction of staying more than 1" away unless they're charging in.
So would something speedy thath doesn't have Fly, a bike perhaps, be allowed to move underneath it? Doesn't rules say ayou have to stay 1" away from any enemy during your entire move? Is there an exception to this for enemy units with Fly?
Could you have played the C'Tan differently, or did letting him take the heat allow your other units to shoot him up afterwards? So that it was a meaningful sacrifice?
I definitely could have played it different. Turn two, since he charged his Helbrute forward, I ran up and charged it with the C'Tan, and since it's AP-4 and D6 damage, quickly erased the Helbrute from existence. Then he shot and charged the C'Tan, but it blew up as I hoped, and left his units closer to my rapid-firing Gauss. So even if it hadn't of exploded, I think it ended up as a decent sacrifice. The only time I've ever actually wanted the C'Tan to die as it did.
I've just bought a monolith and a T.vault. now in terms on LoS, do they both count as blocking LoS to unit behind? Could the enemy shoot under them if they can see my warriors feet? Do they block movement? I assume the mono does, but the vault appears to be quite floaty and I'm not sure whether someone can aruge they can pass under it/semi through it? For combat do they need to get into base contact? Or hull contact?
Basically I have a list that is;
T.vault
Mono
Deciever
I illusion up the table and basically deny space, movement and shooting priority, with the deciever sandwiched between the two to prevent closest shooting. On my turn unloading crapton of mortal wounds per turn and start spewing out Tesla immortals. More of a fun list, but I feel it has a few ways to play. I mostly play maelstrom, so focus on placing objectives tightly together, then if the enemy picks that side I illusion up the board and deny access with my big squares, unload out the back and take good positioning. If he picks the side with little objectives, I can refuse flank, there's lots I feel I can do to mess with the opponents plans. But basically it all rides on how my big squares interact with LoS and movement.
Vault measures to base. Monolith has a rule which states measure to hull.
The monolith will block LOS, but as you've noticed, the Vault wouldn't. Models can pass underneath a Vault in the same way they would pass under a Flyer, with the standard restriction of staying more than 1" away unless they're charging in.
Thanks Willow,
So a follow on question about the T.vault. The overall size of the vault appears to be much larger than the flyer base, lets say that the vault is in a straight line with the enemy unit and a Warrior unit behind it; so the vault is in the middle.
If the warriors unit is inline with the edge of the vaults model (not base) and say the enemy tries to charge the warriors with a C.Fex, what does he do? as there may be room to fit his base in contact with the warriors, but he cant actually fit the Fex there as the model wont fit under the vault?
Same as above but with say genestealers - in which I assume because he can fit them under the vault they have no restrictions
Basically, does the vault restrict movement of the enemy in any way other than the same way a standard flyer would? From what you are saying it seems to me like it might restrict the movment of large units if they want to finish their move within the overall footprint of the vault?
So would something speedy that doesn't have Fly, a bike perhaps, be allowed to move underneath it? Doesn't rules say ayou have to stay 1" away from any enemy during your entire move? Is there an exception to this for enemy units with Fly?
Yeah something would be able to move underneath it. You've got to stay 1" away from the base, unless the unit has a rule which says "measure distances from the hull" or something similar. So in theory, if a short-ish model can fit, the model can definitely move under the Vault, as long as it stays 1" away from the base.
I've just bought a monolith and a T.vault. now in terms on LoS, do they both count as blocking LoS to unit behind? Could the enemy shoot under them if they can see my warriors feet? Do they block movement? I assume the mono does, but the vault appears to be quite floaty and I'm not sure whether someone can aruge they can pass under it/semi through it? For combat do they need to get into base contact? Or hull contact?
Basically I have a list that is;
T.vault
Mono
Deciever
I illusion up the table and basically deny space, movement and shooting priority, with the deciever sandwiched between the two to prevent closest shooting. On my turn unloading crapton of mortal wounds per turn and start spewing out Tesla immortals. More of a fun list, but I feel it has a few ways to play. I mostly play maelstrom, so focus on placing objectives tightly together, then if the enemy picks that side I illusion up the board and deny access with my big squares, unload out the back and take good positioning. If he picks the side with little objectives, I can refuse flank, there's lots I feel I can do to mess with the opponents plans. But basically it all rides on how my big squares interact with LoS and movement.
Vault measures to base. Monolith has a rule which states measure to hull.
The monolith will block LOS, but as you've noticed, the Vault wouldn't. Models can pass underneath a Vault in the same way they would pass under a Flyer, with the standard restriction of staying more than 1" away unless they're charging in.
Thanks Willow,
So a follow on question about the T.vault. The overall size of the vault appears to be much larger than the flyer base, lets say that the vault is in a straight line with the enemy unit and a Warrior unit behind it; so the vault is in the middle.
If the warriors unit is inline with the edge of the vaults model (not base) and say the enemy tries to charge the warriors with a C.Fex, what does he do? as there may be room to fit his base in contact with the warriors, but he cant actually fit the Fex there as the model wont fit under the vault?
Same as above but with say genestealers - in which I assume because he can fit them under the vault they have no restrictions
Basically, does the vault restrict movement of the enemy in any way other than the same way a standard flyer would? From what you are saying it seems to me like it might restrict the movment of large units if they want to finish their move within the overall footprint of the vault?
In the case of the Genies, yes your opponent would be able to charge the warriors.
I honestly don't know about how I'd negotiate the Fex (or large model) situation. It's not come up a lot tbh. Vaults weren't very popular until very recently
I'd just give my opponent the benefit of doubt and say he can charge. Even at a tournament, this helps to create an environment that people enjoy playing in. But that's a personal thing.
SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote: Quick side note- Has anyone else experienced that the Leadbelcher spray paint is brighter than the regular base paint?
I just sprayed a bunch of Warriors and was surprised how shiny/bright they all came out. Makes me feel like I shouldn't layer in Iron Breaker...
That is usually the nature of aerosolized paint vs hand-brushed. Pigment concentrations and whatnot. Base color may be a factor, as well as how many layers of the spray you put down.
Regarding our own FaQ this weekend and the "big" FaQ within the foreseeable future. What changes do we want to see for our army and for 8th edition as a whole?
For our FaQ I would like to know if the Nanoscarabs Relic and/or Resurrection Protocol Stratgem can stop the conditions for "slay the Warlord" e.g. if dead opponent gets 1vp but if it comes back to life is the 1vp negated until it is killed "permanently".
And for the "big" FaQ I wonder will they try and change the way lists are made and games are played to make the tournament and general game scene more "fair" for everyone e.g. Horde armies aren't everywhere. People actually taking and getting success from elite armies and hampering how "soup" lists will work.
Odrankt wrote: What changes do we want to see for our army and for 8th edition as a whole?
Let's be careful about wishlisting, there. (This tactics thread is already long enough as it is without adding more non tactics discussion.)
Unless it's founded on reliable leaked info or something speculation like that might be best done in the general discussion forum rather than the tactics forum.
Things in the codex that are unclear and are hoping will be addressed, however, would totally be relevant. (eg. the part in the points costs at the back that lists things in the troop section which have no business being in the troops section... that one's a given).
moonsmite wrote:You seen destroyers? Even though i love them now, they are over powered and spammy.
When the winner of the last tournament i went to used 17.
i used 12 and came joint 5th.
Wouldnt blame them getting nerfed to previous points with the new gun.
Heartily disagree. They're much better, but they're still quite expensive and low model count for scoring. S6 is better than S5... except it still only wounds most Vehicles and big beasties (usually T7) on 5+ and low shot count per point still struggles against things with good invulns. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm not seeing this be the next metabreaker.
SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote: Quick side note- Has anyone else experienced that the Leadbelcher spray paint is brighter than the regular base paint?
I just sprayed a bunch of Warriors and was surprised how shiny/bright they all came out. Makes me feel like I shouldn't layer in Iron Breaker...
That is usually the nature of aerosolized paint vs hand-brushed. Pigment concentrations and whatnot. Base color may be a factor, as well as how many layers of the spray you put down.
Ah bummer. Was hoping the spray would cut down on my painting time... but I'm not a fan of this super bright silver...
Yeah, they use Bravery equal the amount of Orks in their unit or a nearby unit. A unit of 20+ Boyz or near a unit of 20+ Boyz is essentially fearless.
Neat.
Well, 17 Destroyers puts out 51 shots a turn, Hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s, ignoring their armor. If played right, the Doomsday Arks could move and shoot (because low-power would be fine against Boyz), and have at minimum 10 Gauss shots apiece. Then Wraiths could clean up a unit. It's possible, yeah.
On wraiths no whips. They are not worth the 9 points. As for destroyers. The single unit a turn that gets tge strategem is ridiculous the rest are just decent. Great unit but very easy to kill off.
I doubt we will see any nerfs after such a short time. Some of our current wins will be atleast partially due to people not really knowing our threat priority yet and some just never playing against crons in 8th so far as we were pretty terrible until recently.
Yeah, they use Bravery equal the amount of Orks in their unit or a nearby unit. A unit of 20+ Boyz or near a unit of 20+ Boyz is essentially fearless.
Neat.
Well, 17 Destroyers puts out 51 shots a turn, Hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s, ignoring their armor. If played right, the Doomsday Arks could move and shoot (because low-power would be fine against Boyz), and have at minimum 10 Gauss shots apiece. Then Wraiths could clean up a unit. It's possible, yeah.
Well you can get Boyz with 5++ and FNP as well, so don't discount the defensibility either.
I'm still leery about their survivability per point. The game is very killy, especially at a range. T5 W3 3+ feels strong, but there are so many things out there that do damage at S6+ with multiwounds, at ranges longer than our Destroyers. Many superheavies (Knights, Baneblade variants, etc), Manticores, Autocannons, Deep Striking Plasma (especially Chaos with VotLW), Grot Artillery - the list is not small. Again, I think Destroyers are good, but spamming is just asking to get tabled in the current competitive meta.
The thing that stops Destroyers from being spammy for most players is the fact that the strat can only be used on one unit at a time.
If anything I could see them potentially decreasing the unit max to 5. Still worth taking but would be less shots coming out, plus easier for opponents to kill/prevent RP.
Also they might try increasing the cost of that strat to 2 CP. I'd still take a unit and use that strat, but I'd be less careless about it.
The match-up matters as well. I did 6 destroyers and a dlord vs tau last week and in the one round of shooting the tau player got on them he destroyed the squad of destroyers, leaving the Lord to be less than effective. Granted he used a lot of firepower to do it but the point still stands. They can be killed by the right enemy.
Speaking of tau, how do we deal with the borkan Sept? That extra range plus extra range from their one drone gives them incredible range for large fire warriors squads, our own infantry can't get in range reliability enough to do something. What options do we have to try? I am thinking deep striking 2 warrior squads of 20 and then using a cryptek to move a squad of 10 immortals up to blast them. But that requires us to kill them off before we get triple tapped into oblivion.
Requizen wrote: I can't think of any problematic rules I've seen. Nothing really spammy that needs to be nerfed nor ambiguous wording that needs clarification.
Has the issue of the court of the archon units lacking the character keyword come up at all? I've not looked through this thread much.
The court units definitely had the character rule in the index, but I can't see it anywhere in the codex, unless I'm missing something.
Requizen wrote: I can't think of any problematic rules I've seen. Nothing really spammy that needs to be nerfed nor ambiguous wording that needs clarification.
Has the issue of the court of the archon units lacking the character keyword come up at all? I've not looked through this thread much.
The court units definitely had the character rule in the index, but I can't see it anywhere in the codex, unless I'm missing something.
Wrong thread? This is necron tactics not DE. I nean you arent wrong. I noticed that too. But...
I can't think of any equivalent issues for Necrons that need to be addressed in a faq. I'm sure there are a few though. I'll have to look over the book a bit more.
Yeah, they use Bravery equal the amount of Orks in their unit or a nearby unit. A unit of 20+ Boyz or near a unit of 20+ Boyz is essentially fearless.
Neat.
Well, 17 Destroyers puts out 51 shots a turn, Hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s, ignoring their armor. If played right, the Doomsday Arks could move and shoot (because low-power would be fine against Boyz), and have at minimum 10 Gauss shots apiece. Then Wraiths could clean up a unit. It's possible, yeah.
Yes destro are OP. Best cue: everybody and their mothers are using them.
Yeah, they use Bravery equal the amount of Orks in their unit or a nearby unit. A unit of 20+ Boyz or near a unit of 20+ Boyz is essentially fearless.
Neat.
Well, 17 Destroyers puts out 51 shots a turn, Hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s, ignoring their armor. If played right, the Doomsday Arks could move and shoot (because low-power would be fine against Boyz), and have at minimum 10 Gauss shots apiece. Then Wraiths could clean up a unit. It's possible, yeah.
Even still you can use da Jump on a horde of 30 or even 40 if you merge a wounded unit after they are shot and charge in, just lock up the destroyers with a mob while everything else closes in. i am just curious to see how the game went or if their is a BatRep on how it was beaten.
Destroyers are also one of our more popular units so alot of people are gonna use them just because they are playable again. Codex hasbt even been out a full two weeks. Its a little early to be calling anything OP yet. Once the meta figures out how to handle new crons stuff things will balance again.
Destroyers are not op. They are very good, but nothing dark angels hellblasters couldn't deal with, or chaos havocs, or tau battlesuits, or any other list of things that can kill them. They don't have an invulnerable save, they are not that tough, and they are not that cheap.
They are amazing because it's easy to give them first strike and they need little support to make them work. They are an easy unit to use. Being easy to use =/= op.
How are people finding old man Imotekh? Every game I've ran him he exists as a buff bot and can occasionally pay for himself first turn by zapping a devastator squad.
.. and at what point is running a lord as a buff button worth it? I've been running him with 2x 10 Tesla Immortals and I can't really tell if he's been worth it.
Eonfuzz wrote: How are people finding old man Imotekh? Every game I've ran him he exists as a buff bot and can occasionally pay for himself first turn by zapping a devastator squad.
.. and at what point is running a lord as a buff button worth it? I've been running him with 2x 10 Tesla Immortals and I can't really tell if he's been worth it.
Inevitableq wrote: To be fair, if any of our units were even remotely good people were gonna bitch up a storm.
Yeah people will ALWAYS accuse Necrons of being overpowered. You know that people complained that our Index list was overpowered?
People that said that while it was index are CAAC players, we'll see if that holds true with this codex.
I'm ashamed to admit it took me a second to figure out Complain at all cost, though on this board we generally just call them sisters of battle players.
Inevitableq wrote: To be fair, if any of our units were even remotely good people were gonna bitch up a storm.
Yeah people will ALWAYS accuse Necrons of being overpowered. You know that people complained that our Index list was overpowered?
People that said that while it was index are CAAC players, we'll see if that holds true with this codex.
yeah i played a guy who was not pleased about his slew of 5 and 6 damage attacks bouncing off qs. Mind you he was stomping me. But necrons were obviously OP. Pretty sure i only managed to kill a rhino and a squad of bikers before i got tabled.
If you're facing MEQs with 20 Tesla Immortals and MWBDing them, that's 40 shots, hitting on 2s, proccing Tesla on a 5+.
For... 200/6 or 100/3 hits, and (40/3)*2 extra hits, or 80/3.
180/3 hits, or 60.
Against MEQs, that's 120/3 or 40 wounds.
With a 3+ save, that's 40/3 dead.
A Lord turns 60 hits into 1,680/36, or 140/3 wounds.
140/9 dead MEQs.
That's a difference of 20/9, or, assuming bare bones MEQs, 28.89 points per round of shooting at full strength.
So, roughly 4x full Immortal squad volleys to be worth his points. Do you feel like its worth it?
My main list is an Ork army, and normally you dont take any buff aura's because they're super inefficient. In this Lord's case you could field another 4-6 Tesla Immortals instead of him.
The Lord might seem inefficiënt for damage-per-point, but he brings other utility with him:
-He can fill a mandetory HQ slot for a detachment, as long as its the same as the Immortals.
-He can bring a Ressurection Orb (though this is probably more useful in a Warrior Blob)
-He can take one of the relic Staffs of Light to improve his damage output. Especially the Sautekh one is great on him, since the auto-hit compensates for his BS 3+. Same Goes for a Gauntlet of the Conflagitor.
However, a Cryptek can do many of these things and improve the survivability of the Immortals. So it’s up to you if you want either more dmg output or more survivabiity.
Lord can also grant reroll 1's to Heavy Destroyers, which is very useful.
Also valid VoD carrier, while Imotekh is not.
The Sautekh staff is useful on a Canoptek Cryptek I find, because of the movement allowing to close. I take Imotekh, VoD lord, and Canoptek Cryptek w/ Abyssal staff in my Sautekh force.
Halfpast_Yellow wrote: Lord can also grant reroll 1's to Heavy Destroyers, which is very useful.
Also valid VoD carrier, while Imotekh is not.
The Sautekh staff is useful on a Canoptek Cryptek I find, because of the movement allowing to close. I take Imotekh, VoD lord, and Canoptek Cryptek w/ Abyssal staff in my Sautekh force.
Why nobody take orikan in sautekh? Cost almost like chronotek but with better aura and much better stats.
We are also talking about Imotekh, vs a basic lord. So its 2x MWBD vs re-roll 1's wounds.
So on top of buffing he also has the potential to regen CP, dish out his lightning ability and its 2x MWBD (which was shown in the math) vs re-rolls 1's to wound.
Personally I feel Imo seems like a strong named character. His 2x MWBD is going to be useful through-out the game, as when your immortal units start to get whittled down re-roll wounds gets less effective than MWBD, As the additional hits from 5+ tesla on two units I think outweighs re-roll wounds. Secondly for the points difference as Torblind said; is another 4-6 immortals what you need?
I certainly see a place for a lord, re-roll 1's wounds is pretty tasty for 60 points, and combined with a cryptek for a 5++ invun you can make some nice meaty silvertides. But if I was running some sort of alphastrike with minimal troops at 2x 10 immortals, the double MWBD to focus down targets feels like it will be stronger.
Yeah, they use Bravery equal the amount of Orks in their unit or a nearby unit. A unit of 20+ Boyz or near a unit of 20+ Boyz is essentially fearless.
Neat.
Well, 17 Destroyers puts out 51 shots a turn, Hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s, ignoring their armor. If played right, the Doomsday Arks could move and shoot (because low-power would be fine against Boyz), and have at minimum 10 Gauss shots apiece. Then Wraiths could clean up a unit. It's possible, yeah.
Yes destro are OP. Best cue: everybody and their mothers are using them.
I don't think they're OP. They're just our tournament-level spam unit because that's what people do in this game. If I run casual, fluffy lists with maybe 1-2 squads of 3-5 destroyers occasionally, it's not game breaking.
Inevitableq wrote: To be fair, if any of our units were even remotely good people were gonna bitch up a storm.
Yeah people will ALWAYS accuse Necrons of being overpowered. You know that people complained that our Index list was overpowered?
People that said that while it was index are CAAC players, we'll see if that holds true with this codex.
yeah i played a guy who was not pleased about his slew of 5 and 6 damage attacks bouncing off qs. Mind you he was stomping me. But necrons were obviously OP. Pretty sure i only managed to kill a rhino and a squad of bikers before i got tabled.
It's probably soreness that's still lingering from 7th edition. When the 7th edition Dex came out, whoa nelly. That was the strongest Necrons have ever been. People at my shop didn't like playing even Casual games against me.
The thing with Imotekh is, his ability pairs best with T.imms, but Sautekh's code works best with G.imms.
It's kind of weird they've given his Dynasty something that doesn't work so well with him. (not that it's *bad*, just not best)
Da W wrote: Yes destro are OP. Best cue: everybody and their mothers are using them.
I don't think they're OP. They're just our tournament-level spam unit because that's what people do in this game. If I run casual, fluffy lists with maybe 1-2 squads of 3-5 destroyers occasionally, it's not game breaking.
Are they really worth *spamming*, though?
Yes, one list did well with with them, but until we see every single competitive Necron list taking multiple Destroyer units and placing well I'll just consider them "good" rather than "place on table and have your opponent say gg" broken.
skoffs wrote: The thing with Imotekh is, his ability pairs best with T.imms, but Sautekh's code works best with G.imms.
It's kind of weird they've given his Dynasty something that doesn't work so well with him. (not that it's *bad*, just not best)
I thought the idea behind his ability was to allow an unending advance of warriors to charge across the field and still shoot at full, normal efficiency. Just because MWBD is technically more "efficient" on Tesla Immortals doesn't mean that's what you need to use him for. Two blobs of warriors moving 6-11 inches and still firing Gauss shots at a 3+ is pretty damn good.
krodarklorr wrote: I thought the idea behind his ability was to allow an unending advance of warriors to charge across the field and still shoot at full, normal efficiency. Just because MWBD is technically more "efficient" on Tesla Immortals doesn't mean that's what you need to use him for. Two blobs of warriors moving 6-11 inches and still firing Gauss shots at a 3+ is pretty damn good.
Hey, if someone can manage to make Warriors worth using, by all means, but I'm just not seeing them being the better take at the moment.
krodarklorr wrote: I thought the idea behind his ability was to allow an unending advance of warriors to charge across the field and still shoot at full, normal efficiency. Just because MWBD is technically more "efficient" on Tesla Immortals doesn't mean that's what you need to use him for. Two blobs of warriors moving 6-11 inches and still firing Gauss shots at a 3+ is pretty damn good.
Hey, if someone can manage to make Warriors worth using, by all means, but I'm just not seeing them being the better take at the moment.
Perhaps take Anrakyr with Veil of Darkness and a 20x blob of warriors. Use VoD and DS within 12" to get a rapid fire on a unit. Then with MWBD you are looking at an 8+ for the charge, (roughly 60% chance with reroll charge CP) which if they get in will all have an extra attack. And the possibility of getting Anrakyr within 12" of a vehicle to shoot their gun and also use the Tachon Arrows. Good chance to one shot a vehicle/MC of the enemy.
Deceiver Bomb the Vault. Veil up the Chronotek and MWBD Immortals. Deep Strike the Destroyers. Tunnel in the Sentinels. That is a lot of stuff in the enemy's face very early, but I am not sure that is actually a worthwhile strategy at all! The Scarabs just form a perimeter for the Cloaktek and keep my CP regenerator safe and hold backfield objectives or whatever.
Obvious issues are lack of scoring and susceptibility to being shoved out via screening units and scouts. But it has a certain element of fun to it that appeals to me, but I definitely want it to actually be viable too.
On a fluff aside, I found some blue rods on eBay and am in my early planning stages of going Thokt Dynasty. Should be a nice departure from the usual green rods I see folks with! The real difficulty will be saying the name without chuckling or actually saying "thot" instead. Heh.
krodarklorr wrote: I thought the idea behind his ability was to allow an unending advance of warriors to charge across the field and still shoot at full, normal efficiency. Just because MWBD is technically more "efficient" on Tesla Immortals doesn't mean that's what you need to use him for. Two blobs of warriors moving 6-11 inches and still firing Gauss shots at a 3+ is pretty damn good.
Hey, if someone can manage to make Warriors worth using, by all means, but I'm just not seeing them being the better take at the moment.
Perhaps take Anrakyr with Veil of Darkness and a 20x blob of warriors. Use VoD and DS within 12" to get a rapid fire on a unit. Then with MWBD you are looking at an 8+ for the charge, (roughly 60% chance with reroll charge CP) which if they get in will all have an extra attack. And the possibility of getting Anrakyr within 12" of a vehicle to shoot their gun and also use the Tachon Arrows. Good chance to one shot a vehicle/MC of the enemy.
Da W wrote: Well i hate spamming so when i started seeing desto + wraith spam, i called them OP.
"Started seeing"?
As in, you've seen multiple instances of people spamming Destroyers and cleaning up in tournaments?
Because as far as I knew it was just the one person.
Like I said, if everyone starts spamming them and winning with zero effort then they'd be considered OP. Until then the majority of competent players would just consider them "good".
Da W wrote: -All Sauteck characters
-CCB + a couple of overlords, lords and crypteks
-30 warriors
-30 immortals, 20T 10G
-C'Tan Deceiver
-C'Tan Nighbringer
-Too many scarabs
-3 DDA
So what do you think? Can i win a tournament with that?
You'd have a pretty decent chance with those units.
Not to put down anyone's achievements, because winning a local tournament is great, but beating a group of local players doesn't say much about the overall strength of things. Unless those local players are multi GT winners.
One of my local monthly RTTs is frequented by people who have podiumed at NOVA, Adepticon, LVO, and others. Another has a lot of people who just got into the game and are putting whatever looks cool on the table. There's a marked difference in the usefulness of certain units and even entire armies between the two events.
3 DDA, 30 immo, 3 hq and C'tans are good cron. Throw others and buy valut or destroyers. You can get some scarabs and deathmarks.
Da W wrote: Well i hate spamming so when i started seeing desto + wraith spam, i called them OP. People ain't spamming triarch do they?
Here for fun, ill run my collection, see if i can do a good list.
I HAVE:
-All Sauteck characters
-Anrakyr who has been my index go to guy unitl now
-CCB + a couple of overlords, lords and crypteks
-30 warriors
-30 immortals, 20T 10G
-10 Deathmarks
-10 Lychguard + scythe
-10 Triarch Pretorian + voidblade+pistol
-2 Triarch stalker
-C'Tan Deceiver
-C'Tan Nighbringer
-Too many scarabs
-2 DDA -1 magnetised ghost ark i can turn to a 3rd DDA -2 monoliths
WHAT I DONT HAVE (cause they sucked in the index)
-Destro
-Wraiths
-Obelisk/ Vault
-Barges
-Flyers
So what do you think? Can i win a tournament with that or do i NEED to purchase desto and wraiths?
Ok no. Just, no. Don't throw or sell your other stuff.
the CCB is good, as are the immortals. With the units you have, you might try running a silver tide style list. Or try 7e style Triarch stalker buffs for your DDAs. Those are just quick ideas off the top of my head, I'm sure you can come up with more.
What you need to figure out is whether you can build a list that plays to the strengths of the units you have. At a local tournament, playing well in a style you're comfortable with is half the battle won.
Are they really worth *spamming*, though?
Yes, one list did well with with them, but until we see every single competitive Necron list taking multiple Destroyer units and placing well I'll just consider them "good" rather than "place on table and have your opponent say gg" broken.
I think the list that won the tournament is the one showed on this battle report : https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/754164.page which get his ass kicked by Custodes. If you scroll, the OP talk about the list winning a tournament and the timing seemed right when the list popped here.
willow wrote: So I've tried running the Transcendent C'tan twice, and thought I'd share my experiences thus far.
Both games were at the 1000pts, for context.
My conclusion from its performance is that Cosmic Tyrant is nearly mandatory from an efficiency perspective. If you're not casting two powers a turn, the c'tan is unlikely to be earning its points worth. It may be a playstyle thing, but I found that the chance of rolling Cosmic Tyrant and another desirable trait for fractured personality wasn't worth the risk.
The other traits might make it more durable, or make it faster, but it just tries to turn the c'tan into smth it wasn't meant to be, imho. It isn't really meant to be a CC monster/roadblock, we have wraiths and scarabs for that. The main draw was the powers, and if you only fling d3 mortal wounds a turn...
Gonna be running a Tesseract Vault next, just to see if the strategy of running a mortal wounds spam build makes sense. If it does make such a big difference, i might just forgo rolling for fractured personality next time.
Thoughts?
So I tried the T Vault in my most recent game, and it's a pretty competitive choice, absent a Shadowsword on the opposite side of the table. Bear in mind that this was tested at 1000pts, there may be some changes at 2000pts where you can more reliably stack wounds onto a big model like this.
I split the analysis of the unit into 3 bits.
Survivability The Vault is pretty tough. 28W is a fair bit to chew through, and while T7 isn't the best, the 4++ and Living Metal do combine to make it annoyingly hard to kill. As stated above, absent a Shadowsword on the opposite side, the opponent will find it hard to down the Vault. It gets even tougher when a Cloaktek is around to increase Living Metal to D3 wounds. The kamikaze run still works; opponents will be leery of blowing it up in the middle of their army when everything in a large radius might get D6 mortal wounds. Having said that, it's not unkillable. Don't expect to run it like Rambo and do everything on it's own. It needs support, which brings me to my next point.
Mortal Wounds As you'd expect, the Vault is a mortal wound factory. Meteor, Sky of Falling Stars, Seismic Assault, and Time's Arrow would be my beginning powers of choice. As you get closer to the enemy, you may consider spending the CP to change the powers up for something more close-in, such as Cosmic Fire. Seismic Assault in particular is tasty for dealing with stuff like Poxwalkers or mass cultists. The Vault essentially doubles the Seismic Assault damage, while Sky of Falling Stars is good for spreading out the wounds in a very large radius. Throw in the lack of a deny mechanism, and There is one major problem I faced with all these powers though, which brings me to the final point.
Shooting The shooting on the vault, which is priced into the unit, isn't as good as you might think. With the prevalence of the -1 to hit brigade, getting a tesla proc can be difficult. All the more so since there is nothing that can buff this, except for the Sautekh stratagem. But here's the problem with that. With all the mortal wounds you're flinging out, you might actually kill yourself out of shooting range. In my recent game, I only realised after I activated the Sautekh stratagem that Seismic Assault and Anti-Matter Meteor had left me with nothing to shoot at. My mistake, but it is something to consider. The Vault also doesn't benefit from many of the Dynastic codes which buff shooting, so you're really only reliant on Tesla procs which can be debuffed.
Are they really worth *spamming*, though?
Yes, one list did well with with them, but until we see every single competitive Necron list taking multiple Destroyer units and placing well I'll just consider them "good" rather than "place on table and have your opponent say gg" broken.
I think the list that won the tournament is the one showed on this battle report : https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/754164.page which get his ass kicked by Custodes. If you scroll, the OP talk about the list winning a tournament and the timing seemed right when the list popped here.
For those of you who don't want to search:
Spoiler:
Outrider Detachment [Nerphrek]
Lord with Hyperphase Sword - 76[WARLORD: Implacable Conqueror] [ RELIC: Veil Of Darkness]
Cryptek with Chronometron - 85
Like I imagined: a list like this will probably catch a lot of people off guard and annihilate certain armies. In this game, they just got charged by a bunch of Custodes bikers and removed from the table, because Destroyers aren't actually that survivable and 1 unit of Wraiths can only do so much. Probably could have played better but I think you need actual variety.
I have assembled Obelisk so maybe now i need to disassemble it and assemble Vault. Heh... anyone has experience in disassembling Obelisk? Or any generic guidance how to disassemble models...
Also does anyone have manual how to assemble Vault? I didn't keep mine...
You know, I keep seeing a bunch of people advocating for Silver Tide lists.
I don't have enough Warriors myself so I can't test them personally to see how they play. But from the people who *have* taken them out for a few games that reported back have found them very underwhelming.
So I'm just wondering: why are people recommending Warrior blobs? Do they know something the rest of us haven't caught onto yet?
For those people who took mass warriors out and had them do well, could you give us a report on how you were able to get them to work effectively for you?
skoffs wrote: You know, I keep seeing a bunch of people advocating for Silver Tide lists.
I don't have enough Warriors myself so I can't test them personally to see how they play. But from the people who *have* taken them out for a few games that reported back have found them very underwhelming.
So I'm just wondering: why are people recommending Warrior blobs? Do they know something the rest of us haven't caught onto yet?
For those people who took mass warriors out and had them do well, could you give us a report on how you were able to get them to work effectively for you?
I ran a phalanx vs dark angels. The chronometron helped keep everyone alive from plasma fire. The fearless warlord trait is an absolute requirement. Took me a long time to chew through everything but it was pretty durable, and let the other elements of my army (deep strike destroyers and wraiths) do the work
Azuza001 wrote: The match-up matters as well. I did 6 destroyers and a dlord vs tau last week and in the one round of shooting the tau player got on them he destroyed the squad of destroyers, leaving the Lord to be less than effective. Granted he used a lot of firepower to do it but the point still stands. They can be killed by the right enemy.
Speaking of tau, how do we deal with the borkan Sept? That extra range plus extra range from their one drone gives them incredible range for large fire warriors squads, our own infantry can't get in range reliability enough to do something. What options do we have to try? I am thinking deep striking 2 warrior squads of 20 and then using a cryptek to move a squad of 10 immortals up to blast them. But that requires us to kill them off before we get triple tapped into oblivion.
I played a friendly 1500pt Index game against Tau Boarkan Sept 2 weeks ago and won, but it was close.
The oibvious thing to negate long range is to quickly get up close. Which is historically what you do with Tau anyway.
In my particular game I wanted to try out the Obelisk (nice with Tau) and the Deceiver (also nice with Tau it appears), since I hadn't really tried either before in 8th. Note again, this was an index fight, against Tau Codex, (which I realise is really old fashioned by now).
I rolled to go first, nice! And rolled to redeploy 3 units, also nice! I moved up the Deceiver, Overlord, Tesla immortals and Wraiths to screen the Deceiver, then dropped in the Obelist, moved up Tomb blades and Scarabs. DDA was left in the back holding an objective.
Tomb blades and some immortals shot path finders (he had 10), Tesla immortals and Obelistk cleared fire warriors (he had 30) left and right and wraiths and C'Tan repositioned (couldn't charge due to the rules)
Having too many targets almost in his deployment zone, he was forced to choose. Seeing what the tesla immortals did to his infantry, they got shot up first chance, which was ok, they had done their job and his fire warriors and path finders was no real threat any more. He left the Obelist alone, just too big, too many wounds, and focused on the rest of my army.
My wraiths ravaged around in the midfield to threaten his ghostkeel and stealth suits and held their ground for 3-4 turns, while Obelisk and DDark pomeled his bigger suits and remaining infantry.
His commander dropped in in my zone to attack the DDark but killed i too late to shift the tide of battle.
I think neither list was particularly competitive (I had the Obelisk after all, whose Gravity puls was a joke btw, needs the stratagem), and it was a close point win but it was under control the last few turns.
Key was to get everything in his face (and plan for it), and avoid walking up the board under his insane weapon range. I ended up using the veil turn one actually to get OL and immortals up quickly, since the DDark needed to be redeployed on a marker with one of the redeploys. (Eternal War mission where you scored by holding markers)
Wraiths were great to have up there although they couldn't charge, they were a constant threat that forced him to shift around (and they shielded the CTan)
The Obelist wasn't so bad, it blocked of a large portion of the board, and had LOS to everything, being so big.
He had 7 CP - 1 riptide
- 1 ghostkeel
- 6 stealth suits
- 10 pathfinders
- 2 broad sides
- 3x10 fire warriors
- a few drones
- 1 x commander
- drones here and there
I had an outrider + super heavy:
- Obelisk
- Deceiver
- Overlord
- 10 tesla immortals
- 3 tomb blades
- 3 scarabs
- 6 wraiths
- DD Ark
3 DDA, 30 immo, 3 hq and C'tans are good cron. Throw others and buy valut or destroyers. You can get some scarabs and deathmarks.
Da W wrote: Well i hate spamming so when i started seeing desto + wraith spam, i called them OP. People ain't spamming triarch do they?
Here for fun, ill run my collection, see if i can do a good list.
I HAVE:
-All Sauteck characters
-Anrakyr who has been my index go to guy unitl now
-CCB + a couple of overlords, lords and crypteks
-30 warriors
-30 immortals, 20T 10G
-10 Deathmarks
-10 Lychguard + scythe
-10 Triarch Pretorian + voidblade+pistol
-2 Triarch stalker
-C'Tan Deceiver
-C'Tan Nighbringer
-Too many scarabs
-2 DDA -1 magnetised ghost ark i can turn to a 3rd DDA -2 monoliths
WHAT I DONT HAVE (cause they sucked in the index)
-Destro
-Wraiths
-Obelisk/ Vault
-Barges
-Flyers
So what do you think? Can i win a tournament with that or do i NEED to purchase desto and wraiths?
Ok no. Just, no. Don't throw or sell your other stuff.
the CCB is good, as are the immortals. With the units you have, you might try running a silver tide style list. Or try 7e style Triarch stalker buffs for your DDAs. Those are just quick ideas off the top of my head, I'm sure you can come up with more.
What you need to figure out is whether you can build a list that plays to the strengths of the units you have. At a local tournament, playing well in a style you're comfortable with is half the battle won.
Well i did play a lot with the index. Using 30 warriors worked better than just 30 immortals cause my 20 unit didn't die as easily. At least 10 tesla immortals but more than that it was often wasted. Guass immortals only if i don't have other AP stuff. 3 DDA i used often, now they're twice as good! Used to have 2 triarch stalkers too but that's when DDA only made D3 shots, so now i'm not so sure.
Also played with 1 or 2 monoliths and lychguards coming out. Its fun, but not competitive. Still if you can take out the ennemy's heavy weapons, dealing with 2 monoliths is hard. And teleported lychguard can kill just about anything, it's just expensive to teleport them.
And scarabs. Always, always, pack in scarabs. Even more now that they can blow up. I'll try a brigade tomorow to have ample CP and at least 12 scarabs. Will ever RP them!
But my MVP during the index days (not that i won too often from november to now) was the TRIARCH PRETORIANS. That's right, you read it right. Combined with Anrakyr, they pumped 4 attacks + a gun. That's 40 S5AP-3 attacks. Could take down flyers, which actually happened almost every game while i used my big guns to shoot at non -1 to hit targets. They always got killed sooner or later, but at least got their point's worth. And that was 350pts back in the days, now down to 320.
So i'm not sold on wraith while lychguard can still pack more punch and pretorians are just as mobile.
I agree i need to find 6 destros. That teleporting destro thing is a killer! But wraith, i mean try the other stuff. For the same price it's not obvious.
Not sure why you are comparing Imotekh to a Lord. Imotekh is an overlord.
The cheapest overlord is 87 points. So if you just want a MWBD synergy piece, there you go. Imotekh is double MWBD, two lords are 174. So what else do you get for your 26 points?
Imotekh is 3 S6 -3 2d attacks in melee. OL are easily the same with 1 damage, or the two can have +1s and +1 ap for a total of 190, still 10 points cheaper than Imotekh. You can aslo add a bit of points for a Voidscythe for some serious power. So you don't get more melee power from Imotekh.
If you factor in that you probably don't have a staff of light on your OL, and that Imotekh has good melee combined with stronger staff shooting, Imotekh might be better on offence altogether.
They both have a 4++, but two OL is going to have 4 more wounds. Imotekh is healing D3, but technically two OL are healing 2. Imotekh is 2+ though, so he protects his wounds well. This is a bit of a toss up but as a single target he is tankier. Imotekh also has a flamer to protect against charges.
So now it comes down to the fact that you get 1 CP for making him the general, which is good because hes a nice, tough target to make your general, and he gets the best command ability anyway. How much is 1CP worth?
Now there is another thing to be said about the fact that he can MWBD 4 units at once for 1CP, where 2 overlords would only be able to do .. 3 units.
Lastly he does an almost table-wide D6 mortals, though it can never be a char.
Oh and almost not worth mentioning is he buffs Flayed Ones, I dunno maybe you can build around that but I doubt it.
For my point's I'd say that - if you are running Sautekh, he is better than two OL. You get the D6 mortals, the 1CP, the extra tank on a warlord with the great WT and almost like a 2+ destroyer shot over two OL which would not likely do anything more than be a MWBD jockey. But this means you have to have a need for 2/4 MWBD which means you need a lot of Sautekh. This is a good choice - it might not have the appeal of Mephrit or Novokh, but the WT is amazing and Methodical Destruction can be incredibly powerful stratagem, especially for any heavy Tesla weaponry.
A lot of lists are just min/maxing with as few cheap chars as possible, and you are not likely to run Imotekh in these lists, but he seems like a very fun and strong option depending on your list.
Also if you just have the model - there is also always the option of proxying him as a cheap staff of light generic OL to save points in your list because, your OL model probably has a scythe.
I plan on trying Imotekh with a couple units of Tesla Immortals as I build up a Sautekh battalion.
Woolly.Mammoth wrote: Not sure why you are comparing Imotekh to a Lord. Imotekh is an overlord.
The cheapest overlord is 87 points. So if you just want a MWBD synergy piece, there you go. Imotekh is double MWBD, two lords are 174. So what else do you get for your 26 points?
Imotekh is 3 S6 -3 2d attacks in melee. OL are easily the same with 1 damage, or the two can have +1s and +1 ap for a total of 190, still 10 points cheaper than Imotekh. You can aslo add a bit of points for a Voidscythe for some serious power. So you don't get more melee power from Imotekh.
If you factor in that you probably don't have a staff of light on your OL, and that Imotekh has good melee combined with stronger staff shooting, Imotekh might be better on offence altogether.
They both have a 4++, but two OL is going to have 4 more wounds. Imotekh is healing D3, but technically two OL are healing 2. Imotekh is 2+ though, so he protects his wounds well. This is a bit of a toss up but as a single target he is tankier. Imotekh also has a flamer to protect against charges.
So now it comes down to the fact that you get 1 CP for making him the general, which is good because hes a nice, tough target to make your general, and he gets the best command ability anyway. How much is 1CP worth?
Now there is another thing to be said about the fact that he can MWBD 4 units at once for 1CP, where 2 overlords would only be able to do .. 3 units.
Lastly he does an almost table-wide D6 mortals, though it can never be a char.
Oh and almost not worth mentioning is he buffs Flayed Ones, I dunno maybe you can build around that but I doubt it.
For my point's I'd say that - if you are running Sautekh, he is better than two OL. You get the D6 mortals, the 1CP, the extra tank on a warlord with the great WT and almost like a 2+ destroyer shot over two OL which would not likely do anything more than be a MWBD jockey. But this means you have to have a need for 2/4 MWBD which means you need a lot of Sautekh. This is a good choice - it might not have the appeal of Mephrit or Novokh, but the WT is amazing and Methodical Destruction can be incredibly powerful stratagem, especially for any heavy Tesla weaponry.
A lot of lists are just min/maxing with as few cheap chars as possible, and you are not likely to run Imotekh in these lists, but he seems like a very fun and strong option depending on your list.
Also if you just have the model - there is also always the option of proxying him as a cheap staff of light generic OL to save points in your list because, your OL model probably has a scythe.
I plan on trying Imotekh with a couple units of Tesla Immortals as I build up a Sautekh battalion.
You can take one OL if you need only one MVBD and OLs can take AoA. Like voidreaper or VoD.
Woolly.Mammoth wrote: OL which would not likely do anything more than be a MWBD jockey
If yours OLs dont do anything eles you probably dont need them or dont know how to play them. In my list OL is CC counter and he always fights.
If yours OLs dont do anything eles you probably dont need them or dont know how to play them. In my list OL is CC counter and he always fights.
Do you think Imotekh is strong enough to act as the same CC counter? Or do you need a scythe lord to do that well enough?
Why can't Imotekh benefit from the stratagem? He has MWBD. When he uses MWBD, he can pick two units. If he can do MWBD twice, he can pick 4 units. Stratagem is to pick an OVERLORD, a keyword Imotekh has. So whats the hang up? The only thing that I might argue is he can only do it 3 times with the stratagem.
If yours OLs dont do anything eles you probably dont need them or dont know how to play them. In my list OL is CC counter and he always fights.
Do you think Imotekh is strong enough to act as the same CC counter? Or do you need a scythe lord to do that well enough?
Why can't Imotekh benefit from the stratagem? He has MWBD. When he uses MWBD, he can pick two units. If he can do MWBD twice, he can pick 4 units. Stratagem is to pick an OVERLORD, a keyword Imotekh has. So whats the hang up? The only thing that I might argue is he can only do it 3 times with the stratagem.
Read the Stratagem. It specifically says "...can use the ability a second time this turn."
And Imotekh's Phaeron of the Sautekh Dynasty says: "...can use his My Will Be Done ability twice a turn..."
So he just gets the Stratagem for free, which makes sense because it's The Phaeron's Will and he's a Phaeron.
Edit: as a melee, he's a slightly worse Warscythe, but the major downside is that for his price you could get TWO Warscythe Overlords, which is double the attacks. And that's better.
If yours OLs dont do anything eles you probably dont need them or dont know how to play them. In my list OL is CC counter and he always fights.
Do you think Imotekh is strong enough to act as the same CC counter? Or do you need a scythe lord to do that well enough?
Why can't Imotekh benefit from the stratagem? He has MWBD. When he uses MWBD, he can pick two units. If he can do MWBD twice, he can pick 4 units. Stratagem is to pick an OVERLORD, a keyword Imotekh has. So whats the hang up? The only thing that I might argue is he can only do it 3 times with the stratagem.
Read the Stratagem. It specifically says "...can use the ability a second time this turn."
And Imotekh's Phaeron of the Sautekh Dynasty says: "...can use his My Will Be Done ability twice a turn..."
So he just gets the Stratagem for free, which makes sense because it's The Phaeron's Will and he's a Phaeron.
Edit: as a melee, he's a slightly worse Warscythe, but the major downside is that for his price you could get TWO Warscythe Overlords, which is double the attacks. And that's better.
He's only worse vs T6 and T7, and he does have a pretty gnarly shooting attack.
Mostly anything catching you that fast and is that tough is likely something like a Flyrant or Dreadmaster, which kinda means you weren't gonna live.
Danny76 wrote: Is anyone giving Tomb blades any options, whether you go with Gauss or Tesla, or just running with basic?
They are fast so that makes them prime Gauss Blaster carriers (so they can get into rapid fire range quickly. They've got fly so if they're charged they can just back up and shoot, too).
They can't be given MWBD so Tesla isn't as good on them as it would be on Immortals (the exception being if they're from Mephrit or Sautekh, as the strategems Talent for Annihilation and Methodical Destruction can net you good results with Tesla Tomb Blades).
Defensively, giving the majority of them Shields is never a bad idea. 2-3 Shadow Looms are good for tanking high AP shots for the unit on, too. Running 1-2 naked can even be alright to shave off some points and for absorbing MWs on.
My ideal unit would be-
9x Mephrit Gauss Tomb Blades (5x Shields, 3x Shadow, 2x naked)
Danny76 wrote: Is anyone giving Tomb blades any options, whether you go with Gauss or Tesla, or just running with basic?
My current plan is
9x shield vanes
6x nebulo
3x shadow loom
Gauss or tesla depending on match Up. Most likely gauss.
Im totally sold on that shield abd loom set up but im not positive if the nebulo scope is actually worth it or not.
Danny76 wrote: Is anyone giving Tomb blades any options, whether you go with Gauss or Tesla, or just running with basic?
Im totally sold on that shield abd loom set up but im not positive if the nebulo scope is actually worth it or not.
Nebuloscopes cost 2 points per model, so it is only an 18 point investment for a full unit of 9. Probably worth it unless your list is super tight on points.
However - the big issue is that nebuloscopes effectively take the place of shadowlooms - you can only bring one or other, not both.
The other issue is that we can get access to the same effect as the nebuloscopes via our Solar Pulse (1CP) stratagem, meaning the 1-2 turns where your tomb blades really wish they could deny cover, they can at the cost of a CP or two.
My standard operating procedure is to build the list with no nebuloscopes, and then if there are some odd points available at the end of list building, I might consider throwing Nebuloscopes onto the tomb blades that are not taking shadowlooms.
I'm kind of surprised they are still keeping the TB one-or-the-other upgrade slot as scopes or looms. I would have assumed scopes should have been the "every model can optionally take these" offensive upgrade choice and you had to choose between the shields and looms for defensive upgrade choice.
What do you guys do against horde lists that have a strong alpha strike? I've been really struggling against a heavy psycher Tyranid list lately, which drops in 3 big guys and genestealer psychers right next to me.
Werekill wrote: What do you guys do against horde lists that have a strong alpha strike? I've been really struggling against a heavy psycher Tyranid list lately, which drops in 3 big guys and genestealer psychers right next to me.
Bubble wrap your important stuff with Scarabs.
You could use Warriors, too, and just spread out in your deployment zone to to restrict areas they could land.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, I decided to run the offensive numbers on some Mephrit Tomb Blades configurations.
Turns out the Tesla vs Gauss contest is not going to be easy to pick a winner-
Spoiler:
9x Mephrit Tesla TBs
9x Mephrit Gauss TBs
They both appear to have good things going for them in different regards but Tesla seems to be a bit better (the scales might tip in Tesla's favor even more if you use the Talent for Annihilation strat on them, though, what with every 6 being extra hits AND extra to-hit rolls which may themselves generate more extra hits on a 6).
Compare to some similar point equivalent Nephrekh Destroyers. They seem to preform pretty well!
Spoiler:
6x Nephrekh Destroyers ...
However, if you pop the Destroyer strat things get insane very quickly...
(... though I'm worried with these numbers I may have accidentally done something wrong)
skoffs wrote: You know, I keep seeing a bunch of people advocating for Silver Tide lists.
I don't have enough Warriors myself so I can't test them personally to see how they play. But from the people who *have* taken them out for a few games that reported back have found them very underwhelming.
So I'm just wondering: why are people recommending Warrior blobs? Do they know something the rest of us haven't caught onto yet?
For those people who took mass warriors out and had them do well, could you give us a report on how you were able to get them to work effectively for you?
I ran a phalanx vs dark angels. The chronometron helped keep everyone alive from plasma fire. The fearless warlord trait is an absolute requirement. Took me a long time to chew through everything but it was pretty durable, and let the other elements of my army (deep strike destroyers and wraiths) do the work
Yeah, I advocate for it, but due to liking fluffy, cinematic looking armies on the table. I typically run 2 20xman squads of Warriors and a 10 man squad of each Immortal in 2k+ point games. It just feels right for me, with how Necrons normally operate.
I would, however, put my warriors in two Ghost Arks and ferry them around in a more mobile list, but Ghost Arks are pointless this edition, so...
MrPieChee wrote: Am I missing something, or is a lightning field on a command barge a pretty good deal? 4++ save and quantum shielding!
The first post doesn't list the barge as an option, but as far as I can see the only restriction is a character thats not a c'tan...
You are correct. It is a very good deal. Matter of fact it's the best choice for that Relic, as the only other models that could take it are Crypteks, Lords, or models that already have an invulnerable save.
skoffs wrote: You know, I keep seeing a bunch of people advocating for Silver Tide lists. I don't have enough Warriors myself so I can't test them personally to see how they play. But from the people who *have* taken them out for a few games that reported back have found them very underwhelming. So I'm just wondering: why are people recommending Warrior blobs? Do they know something the rest of us haven't caught onto yet? For those people who took mass warriors out and had them do well, could you give us a report on how you were able to get them to work effectively for you?
I've had two games with a silver tide where I felt the Warriors performed well. Both lists were Mephrit and featured the same core:
Anrakyr (essential IMO) Chronotek with Veil and ignore morale WL trait
2x 20 Warriors
Deceiver Ghost Ark
My strategy was to keep the Warriors alive for the first couple of turns (while still contributing to the fight), because having enough firepower left to wipe 20 warriors in turn 3 of an 8th ed game is easier said than done. This actually turned out to be easier than I thought it would. You don't need to make it impossible for your opponent to wipe out the warriors- just provide a reasonable risk that they will fail to do so. A savvy opponent is not going to go all in on a blob of warriors when there's a chance they will fail and have 75% get back up. Especially when there are things like Immortals and destroyers to shoot at.
How you do this comes down to positioning, terrain and the threat range of the enemy units, so it's not something that's simple to describe. The Deceiver can really help with positioning at deployment (as well as providing the option for a Deceiver bomb).
I lost vs Custards and won vs DE but both warrior squads finished both games at basically full strength.
A basic starting strategy is to deploy the HQs and 5 out of 20 of each warrior unit behind LOS blocking terrain. If your opponent can wittle a warrior squad down to 6 and then hit the last visible model with enough firepower to kill it and it's hidden friends, then it's squad wipe. But what if they leave you with 1-5 hidden models after their initial attack? This is the conundrum your opponent is faced with and will usually result in them shooting something else.
Against DE, my opponent managed to pull off a mass turn 2 charge with Wracks, Witches, characters and Incubi. I screened my warriors with immortals and scarabs which all died. The "I've made a terrible mistake" look on my opponents face when he was figuring out if he should pile into the warriors or not was priceless. Take 40 attacks (Anrakyr) off each unit of warriors now, in order to prevent them shooting, or get rapid fired and charged in my turn? There was no good choice here. I put MWBD on both squads and they slaughtered everything.
The Silver tide is something you need to play carefully (so will never bit a top tier net list) but it can be good.
[...]
A basic starting strategy is to deploy the HQs and 5 out of 20 of each warrior unit behind LOS blocking terrain. If your opponent can wittle a warrior squad down to 6 and then hit the last visible model with enough firepower to kill it and it's hidden friends, then it's squad wipe. But what if they leave you with 1-5 hidden models after their initial attack? This is the conundrum your opponent is faced with and will usually result in them shooting something else.
[...]
The Silver tide is something you need to play carefully (so will never bit a top tier net list) but it can be good.
Awesome read, left what I gather is the take-home message, the LOS positioning is very important to make the RP worthwhile.
But what about armies that you likely have to march up to face on their turf? AM and Tau? Surely then it's harder to keep models out of LOS.
Awesome read, left what I gather is the take-home message, the LOS positioning is very important to make the RP worthwhile.
But what about armies that you likely have to march up to face on their turf? AM and Tau? Surely then it's harder to keep models out of LOS.
That bit I put in was just the easiest thing to describe. You don't always need to be out of LOS to survive, it's more about which enemy units you're in range of and how easily the opponent can focus fire. Sometimes you can conga line the warriors out so that taking casualties from the front/one side will put some units out of range. E.G two unit of fire warriors can move into triple tap range but the casualties from the first unit might put the second down to 1 shot each. You're not looking to catch your opponent out but hope that they understand the maths and the risks involved if the dice don't go their way.
It's really something that needs to be played with to see how often you can make it work- it will definitely fail sometimes!
The Deceiver and Veil are there to help close the gap with gunlines because you really don't want to be waddling towards them at 5" a turn.
Another general tip I would add is that it is often best to spread the Warriors out. It makes it harder to focus their fire but that's often not as important as staying alive. When trying to wipe out a Warrior unit with rapid fire guns and/or assault units the opponent needs to be very careful that you can't remove casualties to put their units out of range. If they have to spend a while scratching their chin working out which unit to put where and what order to resolve their attacks in it may deter them from taking the risk.
3 DDA, 30 immo, 3 hq and C'tans are good cron. Throw others and buy valut or destroyers. You can get some scarabs and deathmarks.
Da W wrote: Well i hate spamming so when i started seeing desto + wraith spam, i called them OP. People ain't spamming triarch do they?
Here for fun, ill run my collection, see if i can do a good list.
I HAVE:
-All Sauteck characters
-Anrakyr who has been my index go to guy unitl now
-CCB + a couple of overlords, lords and crypteks
-30 warriors
-30 immortals, 20T 10G
-10 Deathmarks
-10 Lychguard + scythe
-10 Triarch Pretorian + voidblade+pistol
-2 Triarch stalker
-C'Tan Deceiver
-C'Tan Nighbringer
-Too many scarabs
-2 DDA -1 magnetised ghost ark i can turn to a 3rd DDA -2 monoliths
WHAT I DONT HAVE (cause they sucked in the index)
-Destro
-Wraiths
-Obelisk/ Vault
-Barges
-Flyers
So what do you think? Can i win a tournament with that or do i NEED to purchase desto and wraiths?
Ok no. Just, no. Don't throw or sell your other stuff.
the CCB is good, as are the immortals. With the units you have, you might try running a silver tide style list. Or try 7e style Triarch stalker buffs for your DDAs. Those are just quick ideas off the top of my head, I'm sure you can come up with more.
What you need to figure out is whether you can build a list that plays to the strengths of the units you have. At a local tournament, playing well in a style you're comfortable with is half the battle won.
Well i did play a lot with the index. Using 30 warriors worked better than just 30 immortals cause my 20 unit didn't die as easily. At least 10 tesla immortals but more than that it was often wasted. Guass immortals only if i don't have other AP stuff. 3 DDA i used often, now they're twice as good! Used to have 2 triarch stalkers too but that's when DDA only made D3 shots, so now i'm not so sure.
Also played with 1 or 2 monoliths and lychguards coming out. Its fun, but not competitive. Still if you can take out the ennemy's heavy weapons, dealing with 2 monoliths is hard. And teleported lychguard can kill just about anything, it's just expensive to teleport them.
And scarabs. Always, always, pack in scarabs. Even more now that they can blow up. I'll try a brigade tomorow to have ample CP and at least 12 scarabs. Will ever RP them!
But my MVP during the index days (not that i won too often from november to now) was the TRIARCH PRETORIANS. That's right, you read it right. Combined with Anrakyr, they pumped 4 attacks + a gun. That's 40 S5AP-3 attacks. Could take down flyers, which actually happened almost every game while i used my big guns to shoot at non -1 to hit targets. They always got killed sooner or later, but at least got their point's worth. And that was 350pts back in the days, now down to 320.
So i'm not sold on wraith while lychguard can still pack more punch and pretorians are just as mobile.
I agree i need to find 6 destros. That teleporting destro thing is a killer! But wraith, i mean try the other stuff. For the same price it's not obvious.
How are you getting 4 attacks + gun? I only see base 2 attacks, and with Anrakyr its +1
ArtyomTrityak wrote: I have assembled Obelisk so maybe now i need to disassemble it and assemble Vault. Heh... anyone has experience in disassembling Obelisk? Or any generic guidance how to disassemble models...
Also does anyone have manual how to assemble Vault? I didn't keep mine...
If you used superglue, freezing the model can weaken the bonds and make it slightly brittle. I've had good luck freezing minis to pop arms/guns off that were superglued on. If you used plastic cement or glue, that's going to require some patient cutting, as that actually melts the plastic together.
3 DDA, 30 immo, 3 hq and C'tans are good cron. Throw others and buy valut or destroyers. You can get some scarabs and deathmarks.
Da W wrote: Well i hate spamming so when i started seeing desto + wraith spam, i called them OP. People ain't spamming triarch do they?
Here for fun, ill run my collection, see if i can do a good list.
I HAVE:
-All Sauteck characters
-Anrakyr who has been my index go to guy unitl now
-CCB + a couple of overlords, lords and crypteks
-30 warriors
-30 immortals, 20T 10G
-10 Deathmarks
-10 Lychguard + scythe
-10 Triarch Pretorian + voidblade+pistol
-2 Triarch stalker
-C'Tan Deceiver
-C'Tan Nighbringer
-Too many scarabs
-2 DDA -1 magnetised ghost ark i can turn to a 3rd DDA -2 monoliths
WHAT I DONT HAVE (cause they sucked in the index)
-Destro
-Wraiths
-Obelisk/ Vault
-Barges
-Flyers
So what do you think? Can i win a tournament with that or do i NEED to purchase desto and wraiths?
Ok no. Just, no. Don't throw or sell your other stuff.
the CCB is good, as are the immortals. With the units you have, you might try running a silver tide style list. Or try 7e style Triarch stalker buffs for your DDAs. Those are just quick ideas off the top of my head, I'm sure you can come up with more.
What you need to figure out is whether you can build a list that plays to the strengths of the units you have. At a local tournament, playing well in a style you're comfortable with is half the battle won.
Well i did play a lot with the index. Using 30 warriors worked better than just 30 immortals cause my 20 unit didn't die as easily. At least 10 tesla immortals but more than that it was often wasted. Guass immortals only if i don't have other AP stuff. 3 DDA i used often, now they're twice as good! Used to have 2 triarch stalkers too but that's when DDA only made D3 shots, so now i'm not so sure.
Also played with 1 or 2 monoliths and lychguards coming out. Its fun, but not competitive. Still if you can take out the ennemy's heavy weapons, dealing with 2 monoliths is hard. And teleported lychguard can kill just about anything, it's just expensive to teleport them.
And scarabs. Always, always, pack in scarabs. Even more now that they can blow up. I'll try a brigade tomorow to have ample CP and at least 12 scarabs. Will ever RP them!
But my MVP during the index days (not that i won too often from november to now) was the TRIARCH PRETORIANS. That's right, you read it right. Combined with Anrakyr, they pumped 4 attacks + a gun. That's 40 S5AP-3 attacks. Could take down flyers, which actually happened almost every game while i used my big guns to shoot at non -1 to hit targets. They always got killed sooner or later, but at least got their point's worth. And that was 350pts back in the days, now down to 320.
So i'm not sold on wraith while lychguard can still pack more punch and pretorians are just as mobile.
I agree i need to find 6 destros. That teleporting destro thing is a killer! But wraith, i mean try the other stuff. For the same price it's not obvious.
How are you getting 4 attacks + gun? I only see base 2 attacks, and with Anrakyr its +1
Ah thanks. Why would you take Rod of Covenenat over Voidblade and Particle caster, they are the same points and range. Plus the pistols still get ot shoot once you get into combat. Seems like the rods are pointles.
For the Praetorians it says they do NOT gain the benefit of the Dynastic Code, however can you still target them with other Dynasty traits: example
Say I have Zahndrekh, can the Praetorians be considered Sautehk infantry (though not gain the Relentless Advaance bonus of it) and be targeted by the Transient Madness? OR are they basically considered Dynastyless (chapterless) and get no benefits nor can be targeted by any abilities of the benefit?
Edit: Also it looks like the Zadndrekh and Szeras are 2 different buffs. You could really buff up a 20 blob of warriors for some hurt.
Dynas wrote: Ah thanks.
For the Praetorians it says they do NOT gain the benefit of the Dynastic Code, however can you still target them with other Dynasty traits: example
Say I have Zahndrekh, can the Praetorians be considered Sautehk infantry (though not gain the Relentless Advaance bonus of it) and be targeted by the Transient Madness? OR are they basically considered Dynastyless (chapterless) and get no benefits nor can be targeted by any abilities of the benefit?
No benefit from Zahndrekh, as they lack a <Dynasty> keyword. Anrakyr, Szeras, and Imohtekh could still buff them, as some of their abilities just target friendly NECRONS or NECRON INFANTRY.
Dynas wrote: Ah thanks. Why would you take Rod of Covenenat over Voidblade and Particle caster, they are the same points and range. Plus the pistols still get ot shoot once you get into combat. Seems like the rods are pointles.
For the Praetorians it says they do NOT gain the benefit of the Dynastic Code, however can you still target them with other Dynasty traits: example
Say I have Zahndrekh, can the Praetorians be considered Sautehk infantry (though not gain the Relentless Advaance bonus of it) and be targeted by the Transient Madness? OR are they basically considered Dynastyless (chapterless) and get no benefits nor can be targeted by any abilities of the benefit?
Edit: Also it looks like the Zadndrekh and Szeras are 2 different buffs. You could really buff up a 20 blob of warriors for some hurt.
Rods have AP-3 in shooting, that's the only real difference. Rods are better as a fast harassment piece - run over, shoot a unit with AP-3, charge a different unit with AP-3, if you get stuck in with something you don't want to be, just fall back and shoot because <FLY>.
Zahndrekh and Szeras are both random abilities, and therefore usually bad.
iGuy91 wrote: Any idea on how to best handle flyers with a -1 to hit? Tesla is obviously a bust because the -1 prevents extra tesla procs.
I'm leaning towards destroyers. Thoughts?
Yeah, massed Gauss cannon fire is generally a reliable bet. They have sufficient weight of fire to force some hits through.
Don't forget you have some wildcard options in CC. Praetorians, Destroyer Lords and C'tan can all FLY and hit hard enough that you can seriously threaten an aircraft in melee with them if your opponent gets careless with his positioning. Not something you can necessarily rely on but don't be afraid to pounce if the opportunity presents itself.
Dynas wrote: Ah thanks. Why would you take Rod of Covenenat over Voidblade and Particle caster, they are the same points and range. Plus the pistols still get ot shoot once you get into combat. Seems like the rods are pointles.
For the Praetorians it says they do NOT gain the benefit of the Dynastic Code, however can you still target them with other Dynasty traits: example
Say I have Zahndrekh, can the Praetorians be considered Sautehk infantry (though not gain the Relentless Advaance bonus of it) and be targeted by the Transient Madness? OR are they basically considered Dynastyless (chapterless) and get no benefits nor can be targeted by any abilities of the benefit?
Edit: Also it looks like the Zadndrekh and Szeras are 2 different buffs. You could really buff up a 20 blob of warriors for some hurt.
Rods have AP-3 in shooting, that's the only real difference. Rods are better as a fast harassment piece - run over, shoot a unit with AP-3, charge a different unit with AP-3, if you get stuck in with something you don't want to be, just fall back and shoot because <FLY>.
Zahndrekh and Szeras are both random abilities, and therefore usually bad.
Yeah it is a gamble, but there is always the CP reroll Say you get the +1 Str and +1 Attacks. You can move a warrior blob within Rapid rife, unload 40 shots with MWBD and hit on 2+, then charge (MYBD buff as well) and get another 40 attacks at at S5 hitting on 2's. Not to mention if you get Zahndrekh within 12" you shut down any buffs they may have.
Another combo I just saw was taking a vehicle say a DDA or a Triarch Stalker or a Tesseract Vault and camp a Canoptek Spyder and Cryptek with a Canoptek Cloak. That thing will be regaining 2D3 wounds every turn.
Another combo I just saw was taking a vehicle say a DDA or a Triarch Stalker or a Tesseract Vault and camp a Canoptek Spyder and Cryptek with a Canoptek Cloak. That thing will be regaining 2D3 wounds every turn.
Combos like this are always a gamble. Can you regen enough wounds that the healers are better value than simply taking a second unit of X? A Tesseract Value is really tough now with a 4++ and bucket-load of wounds so might be worth it. A single Stalker or DDA runs the risk of being blown to bits before it can be repaired. For my money the DDA is a better bet as its long range means it can hang back to minimise retaliation while its quantumn shielding makes it hard for high damage weaponry to take it down quickly as opponents tend to have to resort to death by a thousand papercuts (or plasma burns).
Another combo I just saw was taking a vehicle say a DDA or a Triarch Stalker or a Tesseract Vault and camp a Canoptek Spyder and Cryptek with a Canoptek Cloak. That thing will be regaining 2D3 wounds every turn.
Combos like this are always a gamble. Can you regen enough wounds that the healers are better value than simply taking a second unit of X? A Tesseract Value is really tough now with a 4++ and bucket-load of wounds so might be worth it. A single Stalker or DDA runs the risk of being blown to bits before it can be repaired. For my money the DDA is a better bet as its long range means it can hang back to minimise retaliation while its quantum shielding makes it hard for high damage weaponry to take it down quickly as opponents tend to have to resort to death by a thousand papercuts (or plasma burns).
Agreed. Just sort of thinking out loud. I like the Triarch Stalker model, and the Target Relay still seems good. I know people say its expensive, but I actually want to try some of this stuff. A lot of information is just regurgitated based on 1 or 2 youtube reviews and never actually tested.
Zahndrekh and Szeras are both random abilities, and therefore usually bad.
The wording on their abilities is slightly different. Zahndrekh gets to roll for an ability, THEN choose a unit.
Szeras gets to choose a unit, THEN roll for an ability.
I really wish the wording on Szeras was more like Zahndrekh...
Oh. Good catch, i totally missed that. Could come in handy if you had multiple units to choose from. Like if you got BS both times. No point in double stacking to 1+
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey guys, quick question: how do Tomb blades compare with Destroyers? Can they be interchangeable or do they fill different roles?
Well the biggest 2 things destroyers have going for them are the stratagem and the fact they are INFANTRY and can be targeted by the buffs of a lot of the HQ's. Tomb Blades have the speed advantage and could be usefull for rapid deployment or zipping onto objectives and getting into backlines doing biker stuff.
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey guys, quick question: how do Tomb blades compare with Destroyers? Can they be interchangeable or do they fill different roles?
Different roles.
I haven't gotten to try out destroyers yet, but on paper, they are our best AV (T6-T8) when using the Extermination Protocols strategem.
Tomblades fill the anti infantry roll (T5 and lower). I've tried a unit of 9 Gauss Tomb Blades(4x shield vanes, 4x shadowloom) this past weekend and while getting in RF range is nice, you lose that -1 to hit once you get in CC. Granted, whatever MEQ unit I pointed them at, they wiped them handily.
Though, my suggestion would be to play them as a skirmisher unit with Tesla and float around 24" targeting screens/infantry.
While they can't get MWBD, you can use the Sautekh Methodical Destruction strategem for some fun
iGuy91 wrote: Any idea on how to best handle flyers with a -1 to hit? Tesla is obviously a bust because the -1 prevents extra tesla procs.
I'm leaning towards destroyers. Thoughts?
Yeah, massed Gauss cannon fire is generally a reliable bet. They have sufficient weight of fire to force some hits through.
Don't forget you have some wildcard options in CC. Praetorians, Destroyer Lords and C'tan can all FLY and hit hard enough that you can seriously threaten an aircraft in melee with them if your opponent gets careless with his positioning. Not something you can necessarily rely on but don't be afraid to pounce if the opportunity presents itself.
Scarabs can fly now too. And lucky DDA Shots can give them a hard time too.
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey guys, quick question: how do Tomb blades compare with Destroyers? Can they be interchangeable or do they fill different roles?
Different roles.
I haven't gotten to try out destroyers yet, but on paper, they are our best AV (T6-T8) when using the Extermination Protocols strategem.
Tomblades fill the anti infantry roll (T5 and lower). I've tried a unit of 9 Gauss Tomb Blades(4x shield vanes, 4x shadowloom) this past weekend and while getting in RF range is nice, you lose that -1 to hit once you get in CC. Granted, whatever MEQ unit I pointed them at, they wiped them handily.
Though, my suggestion would be to play them as a skirmisher unit with Tesla and float around 24" targeting screens/infantry.
While they can't get MWBD, you can use the Sautekh Methodical Destruction strategem for some fun
I just did an analysis on this the previous page...
skoffs wrote: I decided to run the offensive numbers on some Mephrit Tomb Blades configurations.
Turns out the Tesla vs Gauss contest is not going to be easy to pick a winner-
Spoiler:
9x Mephrit Tesla TBs
9x Mephrit Gauss TBs
They both appear to have good things going for them in different regards but Tesla seems to be a bit better (the scales might tip in Tesla's favor even more if you use the Talent for Annihilation strat on them, though, what with every 6 being extra hits AND extra to-hit rolls which may themselves generate more extra hits on a 6).
Compare to some similar point equivalent Nephrekh Destroyers. They seem to preform pretty well!
Spoiler:
6x Nephrekh Destroyers ...
However, if you pop the Destroyer strat things get insane very quickly...
(... though I'm worried with these numbers I may have accidentally done something wrong)
I just did an analysis on this the previous page...
skoffs wrote: I decided to run the offensive numbers on some Mephrit Tomb Blades configurations.
Turns out the Tesla vs Gauss contest is not going to be easy to pick a winner-
Spoiler:
9x Mephrit Tesla TBs
9x Mephrit Gauss TBs
They both appear to have good things going for them in different regards but Tesla seems to be a bit better (the scales might tip in Tesla's favor even more if you use the Talent for Annihilation strat on them, though, what with every 6 being extra hits AND extra to-hit rolls which may themselves generate more extra hits on a 6).
Compare to some similar point equivalent Nephrekh Destroyers. They seem to preform pretty well!
Spoiler:
6x Nephrekh Destroyers ...
However, if you pop the Destroyer strat things get insane very quickly...
(... though I'm worried with these numbers I may have accidentally done something wrong)
You certainly did! The only thing I'd comment on is that this analysis looks like it puts both Tomb Blades configurations within 12"? I'd argue that's not a place you want to put a unit that gets -1 to hit only against shooting attacks, unless you can reliably wipe a unit or lock them up with another.
If you put them outside that range, Destroyers will shine even more for AV in that comparison. And results will lean even more towards Tesla compared to Gauss, at least until you're firing into a -1 to hit army...
I just did an analysis on this the previous page...
skoffs wrote: I decided to run the offensive numbers on some Mephrit Tomb Blades configurations.
Turns out the Tesla vs Gauss contest is not going to be easy to pick a winner-
Spoiler:
9x Mephrit Tesla TBs
9x Mephrit Gauss TBs
They both appear to have good things going for them in different regards but Tesla seems to be a bit better (the scales might tip in Tesla's favor even more if you use the Talent for Annihilation strat on them, though, what with every 6 being extra hits AND extra to-hit rolls which may themselves generate more extra hits on a 6).
Compare to some similar point equivalent Nephrekh Destroyers. They seem to preform pretty well!
Spoiler:
6x Nephrekh Destroyers ...
However, if you pop the Destroyer strat things get insane very quickly...
(... though I'm worried with these numbers I may have accidentally done something wrong)
You certainly did! The only thing I'd comment on is that this analysis looks like it puts both Tomb Blades configurations within 12"? I'd argue that's not a place you want to put a unit that gets -1 to hit only against shooting attacks, unless you can reliably wipe a unit or lock them up with another.
If you put them outside that range, Destroyers will shine even more for AV in that comparison. And results will lean even more towards Tesla compared to Gauss, at least until you're firing into a -1 to hit army...
Like I said, this was just a Mephrit load out example, and Mephrit usually wants to be inside half range.
In that they've got fly at least they can fall back and shoot things that might try to come after them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ghaz wrote: Just a reminder that Necrons are being featured on Warhammer Live today, starting in a few minutes...
Spoiler:
Watching the game now.
The guy who was SUPPOSED to play was sick, so they got someone else to play.
This person (Jamie) does not play Necrons and made a list after looking at the codex during his 30 min lunch break.
This is the list he came up with...
Spoiler:
| Jamie | | Necrons (Novokh Dynasty)
Catacomb Command Barge Staff of light and Tesla Cannon and Resurrection Orb,
Anrakyr the Traveller,
5 lychguard with Warscythes,
10 necron warriors,
10 Necron Warriors,
20 Necron Warriors,
Monolith,
3 Doomscythes.
... the chat is going crazy.
"Literally the worst necron list ever"
"Its not "optimal" but hey, its fun"
"Not optimal? spaghetti in gak sauce would be better"
"absolute shambles"
"While I appreciate Jamie stepping up to showcase this army could we get a proper Necron player and list to play live on WarhmmerTV? A close combat dynasty and close combat warlord trait with a shooty army just is not that great. It just feels disrespect to Necron players."
"Like seriously, if you're trying to sell Necrons why would you have a list like this... so frustrated right now as a dedicated Necron player..."
Did some math hammer. Went against normalised T5 Armor 4+ target for offense and S5 ap-2 for defence. Computed both single wound and multi-wounds. Renormalised everything on a 300pts investment basis (which is the price of 6 destroyers).
This is all based on pure stats. I don't rate extra perks such as invasion beam or giving reroll 1 to hit and such. Nor do i rate movement, which is of course important. Plan accordinly.
Warriors: C - only really useful in large number in a combo with ghost ark, cryptek+chronometron against multiple wounds shooting armies.
Immortals: B - best used in tesla with MWBD vs 5++swarms, but you all know that. Probably the best infantry clearing unit we have.
Deathmarks: D - can't find any use based solely on stats
Flayed ones: B - second best infantry cleaner after pretorians, but with the best potential combo of all: Immotek, Anrakyr, Orikan, giving 4 attack reroll 1 to hit to wound and 5++ save in combat. Theorically inflicts more wound than destroyers even!
Lychguard: A - Surprised? Naked they inflict just as much wounds as immortals or destroyers on 1W infantry, maxed out (again Anrakyr +1A) this is the highest damage output vs multiple wounds opponents we have.
Preorians: A- Surprised again? This is the best autonomous unit in our codex. They can go alone and pump more damage than all others. They weakens vs multple wounds stuff yet can still pack some punch.
C'Tan Nighbringer: B. Best character killer going naked without buffs. Period.
C'Tan Deceiver: C. All around less good than Nightbringer. I did not rate its teleportation trick though. But if you don,t plan to use its trick, stick with nightbringer.
Scarab: B. Best all around number of effective HP / point spend, period. 2nd more resistant vs multiple wound dealing ennemies after the ghost ark.
Wraith: A. My maths have to admit it although they are not my favorite. 3rd most resistant unit point for points, yet can still pack a punch vs multple wound opponents. Warning: the damage output is half that of a fully maxed lychguard or flayed one unit. Will hit lower than scarab vs 1W infantry swarms.
Tomb blades: C. Offense relatively suck (compared to lower cost infantry) but they are resiliant vs 1-w weapons.
Destroyers: A - 2nd best damage output vs multple wounds (after Nightbringer) going naked, you can combo with a Dlord or the stratagem they will match nightbringer. Even good vs 1wound infantry which surprised me.
Heavy destroyers: D. Point for points, unless yu have very specific targets, take regular destoryers.
Triarch stalker: B. Very robust, offensively made to use its flamer and charge.
Doomsday ark: A. Very random, can go from 1 shot up to 26. 6th best damage output and 3rd best when ignoring melee units. Also though to crack, an all around auto-include.
Ghost ark: B. Cheaper than DDA so point for point it's worth more defensively. I would always use it if i use warrior, not much for the RP boost, but the extra defense and attack they bring.
Monolith: D. Nothing to do, its average in everything. Its really the invasion beam trick that does the difference (best way to launch lychguards and flayed ones in your opponent's face).
Annihilation barge: D. Sucks.
I stopped there cause it was my midday break.
Best combos:
1) Tesla immortals + overlord + lord + Stalker (or equivalent stratagems)
2) Destroyer + deepstrike (or C'tan deceiver) + destroyer lord (or stratagem) +res orb
3) Lychguard + Anraky + Orikan getting charged, or + Monolith
4) Flayed ones + Immotek (really not necessary) + Anraky + Orikan + Invasion beam / +C'tan deceiver + Nightmare shroud (-3 cumulative morale). This is the most customisable unit.
5) Doomsday ark +Stalker + sauteck stratagem
6) Wraith + Cryptek + cloak + RP stratagem
7) Scarab + lots of CP + MW stratagem + RP stratagem + spider
8) Lots of warrior + cryptek + chronometron + ghost ark + lord and may be even overlord, going meprhit.
Went against normalised T5 Armor 4+ target for offense and S5 ap-2 for defence. Computed both single wound and multi-wounds. Renormalised everything on a 300pts investment basis (which is the price of 6 destroyers).
This is all based on pure stats. I don't rate extra perks such as invasion beam or giving reroll 1 to hit and such. Nor do i rate movement, which is of course important. Plan accordinly.
Warriors: C - only really useful in large number in a combo with ghost ark, cryptek+chronometron against multiple wounds shooting armies.
Immortals: B - best used in tesla with MWBD vs 5++swarms, but you all know that. Probably the best infantry clearing unit we have.
Deathmarks: D - can't find any use based solely on stats
Flayed ones: B - second best infantry cleaner after pretorians, but with the best potential combo of all: Immotek, Anrakyr, Orikan, giving 4 attack reroll 1 to hit to wound and 5++ save in combat. Theorically inflicts more wound than destroyers even!
Lychguard: A - Surprised? Naked they inflict just as much wounds as immortals or destroyers on 1W infantry, maxed out (again Anrakyr +1A) this is the highest damage output vs multiple wounds opponents we have.
Preorians: A- Surprised again? This is the best autonomous unit in our codex. They can go alone and pump more damage than all others. They weakens vs multple wounds stuff yet can still pack some punch.
C'Tan Nighbringer: B. Best character killer going naked without buffs. Period.
C'Tan Deceiver: C. All around less good than Nightbringer. I did not rate its teleportation trick though. But if you don,t plan to use its trick, stick with nightbringer.
Scarab: B. Best all around number of effective HP / point spend, period. 2nd more resistant vs multiple wound dealing ennemies after the ghost ark.
Wraith: A. My maths have to admit it although they are not my favorite. 3rd most resistant unit point for points, yet can still pack a punch vs multple wound opponents. Warning: the damage output is half that of a fully maxed lychguard or flayed one unit. Will hit lower than scarab vs 1W infantry swarms.
Tomb blades: C. Offense relatively suck (compared to lower cost infantry) but they are resiliant vs 1-w weapons.
Destroyers: A - 2nd best damage output vs multple wounds (after Nightbringer) going naked, you can combo with a Dlord or the stratagem they will match nightbringer. Even good vs 1wound infantry which surprised me.
Heavy destroyers: D. Point for points, unless yu have very specific targets, take regular destoryers.
Triarch stalker: B. Very robust, offensively made to use its flamer and charge.
Doomsday ark: A. Very random, can go from 1 shot up to 26. 6th best damage output and 3rd best when ignoring melee units. Also though to crack, an all around auto-include.
Ghost ark: B. Cheaper than DDA so point for point it's worth more defensively. I would always use it if i use warrior, not much for the RP boost, but the extra defense and attack they bring.
Monolith: D. Nothing to do, its average in everything. Its really the invasion beam trick that does the difference (best way to launch lychguards and flayed ones in your opponent's face).
Annihilation barge: D. Sucks.
Sure, from a pure statistical standpoint some of these might seem good (eg. Lychguard), but how are you supposed to get these well performing units into combat?
And if ignoring certain potential buffs then obviously you're going to be missing out on combos that might elevate a unit's ability (eg. Mephrit Deathmarks with a Lord nearby being quite lethal).
I have been thinking tat tomb blades and destroyers really compliment each other. Tomb blades can put out a lot of hits against all targets, but do the most against T3-5 targets, while destroyers do incredible amounts of damage against T5-11 targets. With this in mind, I was thinking about running this list. It should do a lot of damage to just about any target it is pointed at.
Spoiler:
Outrider Detatchment:
Dynasty: Mephrit
HQ:
Cryptek with Canoptek Cloak
Fast Attack:
9 X Tesla Tomb Blades (3 Shadowlooms, 6 Shieldvanes)
9 X Tesla Tomb Blades (3 Shadowlooms, 6 Shieldvanes)
3 X Scarabs
Outrider Detachment:
Dynasty: Sautekh
HQ:
Cryptek with Chronometron
Warlord Trait: Hyperlogical Strategist
Fast Attack:
6 X Destroyers
6 X Destroyers
6 X Destroyers
Outrider Detachment:
Dynasty: Sautekh
HQ:
Destroyer Lord with Phylactery and Warscythe
Relic: Nanoscarab Casket
Game_maker wrote: I have been thinking tat tomb blades and destroyers really compliment each other. Tomb blades can put out a lot of hits against all targets, but do the most against T3-5 targets, while destroyers do incredible amounts of damage against T5-11 targets. With this in mind, I was thinking about running this list. It should do a lot of damage to just about any target it is pointed at.
Spoiler:
Outrider Detatchment:
Dynasty: Mephrit
HQ:
Cryptek with Canoptek Cloak
Fast Attack:
9 X Tesla Tomb Blades (3 Shadowlooms, 6 Shieldvanes)
9 X Tesla Tomb Blades (3 Shadowlooms, 6 Shieldvanes)
3 X Scarabs
Outrider Detachment:
Dynasty: Sautekh
HQ:
Cryptek with Chronometron
Warlord Trait: Hyperlogical Strategist
Fast Attack:
6 X Destroyers
6 X Destroyers
6 X Destroyers
Outrider Detachment:
Dynasty: Sautekh
HQ:
Destroyer Lord with Phylactery and Warscythe
Relic: Nanoscarab Casket
Fast Attack:
3 X Scarabs
3 X Scarabs
3 X Scarabs
Total CP: 6
That looks pretty vicious.
Why have the Cloak-tek as warlord instead of, say, the Destroyer Lord? If he's got the Nano-Cask he's going to be very hard to kill, meaning, if he's Sautekh, you'll be able to get more potential command dice back (unless your idea was to just run and hide the Tek).
Maybe consider making one of the detachments from Nephrekh (Scarabs would prefer that too). May be worth changing one Destroyer squad out for Wraiths, too, just in case you need something tied up that Scarabs wouldn't be able to handle on their own.
Ghaz wrote: Just a reminder that Necrons are being featured on Warhammer Live today, starting in a few minutes...
Spoiler:
Watching the game now.
The guy who was SUPPOSED to play was sick, so they got someone else to play.
This person (Jamie) does not play Necrons and made a list after looking at the codex during his 30 min lunch break.
This is the list he came up with...
Spoiler:
| Jamie | | Necrons (Novokh Dynasty)
Catacomb Command Barge Staff of light and Tesla Cannon and Resurrection Orb,
Anrakyr the Traveller,
5 lychguard with Warscythes,
10 necron warriors,
10 Necron Warriors,
20 Necron Warriors,
Monolith,
3 Doomscythes.
... the chat is going crazy.
"Literally the worst necron list ever"
"Its not "optimal" but hey, its fun"
"Not optimal? spaghetti in gak sauce would be better"
"absolute shambles"
"While I appreciate Jamie stepping up to showcase this army could we get a proper Necron player and list to play live on WarhmmerTV? A close combat dynasty and close combat warlord trait with a shooty army just is not that great. It just feels disrespect to Necron players."
"Like seriously, if you're trying to sell Necrons why would you have a list like this... so frustrated right now as a dedicated Necron player..."
Game was called at the end of round four, with Ceri (Tyranids) winning. Jamie (Necrons) was hindered by his army choice and available models (at one point he mentioned that he would have taken a warscythe on a model instead of a Staff of Light, but since he was using the Studio Novokh army there was no model available).
Game_maker wrote: I have been thinking tat tomb blades and destroyers really compliment each other. Tomb blades can put out a lot of hits against all targets, but do the most against T3-5 targets, while destroyers do incredible amounts of damage against T5-11 targets. With this in mind, I was thinking about running this list. It should do a lot of damage to just about any target it is pointed at.
Spoiler:
Outrider Detatchment:
Dynasty: Mephrit
HQ:
Cryptek with Canoptek Cloak
Fast Attack:
9 X Tesla Tomb Blades (3 Shadowlooms, 6 Shieldvanes)
9 X Tesla Tomb Blades (3 Shadowlooms, 6 Shieldvanes)
3 X Scarabs
Outrider Detachment:
Dynasty: Sautekh
HQ:
Cryptek with Chronometron
Warlord Trait: Hyperlogical Strategist
Fast Attack:
6 X Destroyers
6 X Destroyers
6 X Destroyers
Outrider Detachment:
Dynasty: Sautekh
HQ:
Destroyer Lord with Phylactery and Warscythe
Relic: Nanoscarab Casket
Fast Attack:
3 X Scarabs
3 X Scarabs
3 X Scarabs
Total CP: 6
That looks pretty vicious.
Why have the Cloak-tek as warlord instead of, say, the Destroyer Lord? If he's got the Nano-Cask he's going to be very hard to kill, meaning, if he's Sautekh, you'll be able to get more potential command dice back (unless your idea was to just run and hide the Tek).
Maybe consider making one of the detachments from Nephrekh (Scarabs would prefer that too). May be worth changing one Destroyer squad out for Wraiths, too, just in case you need something tied up that Scarabs wouldn't be able to handle on their own.
I was planning on hiding the Chronometron Cryptek in the destroyer squad and using the Destroyer Lord a bit more offensively, but I've kind of gone back and forth on that option. The other thought I've had would be to switch the Destroyer Fast Attack Detachments to Nephrekh, and switch my warlord to the Mephrit Cloak-tek with the Immortal Pride trait instead to keep the tomb blades from fleeing.
sieGermans wrote: So, Praetorians being eligible for Imotekh's MWBD; doesn't that kind of help them dramatically?
Anrakyr can also buff them but it's not exactly the most efficient combo.
The problem still exists: how are these slow moving HQ supposed to keep up with these fast moving guys?
(also, Imotekh not using his ability on two Sautekh units seems like a waste of that power)
Game_maker wrote: and switch my warlord to the Mephrit Cloak-tek with the Immortal Pride trait instead to keep the tomb blades from fleeing.
I mean, that wouldn't be horrible, but then you'd be missing out on the best Warlord trait. (Hyperlogical Strategist)
sieGermans wrote: So, Praetorians being eligible for Imotekh's MWBD; doesn't that kind of help them dramatically?
Anrakyr can also buff them but it's not exactly the most efficient combo.
The problem still exists: how are these slow moving HQ supposed to keep up with these fast moving guys?
(also, Imotekh not using his ability on two Sautekh units seems like a waste of that power)
Game_maker wrote: and switch my warlord to the Mephrit Cloak-tek with the Immortal Pride trait instead to keep the tomb blades from fleeing.
I mean, that wouldn't be horrible, but then you'd be missing out on the best Warlord trait. (Hyperlogical Strategist)
And then no reason to take sautekh destroyers. You can change them mephrit or put in DS.
Preorians: A- Surprised again? This is the best autonomous unit in our codex. They can go alone and pump more damage than all others. They weakens vs multple wounds stuff yet can still pack some punch.
EnTyme wrote: A note on Warscythe Lychguard: They were pretty solid in Killteam-style small skirmish games in 7th edition, and with Killteam getting an update soon, you may want to build them for that if your group plays.
If you're still required to field units in their entirety instead of just being able to stick individual guys on the table I highly doubt you'll be seeing many Lychguard in Killteam lists.
We always house ruled that you built Killteams per model. The game works a lot better that way. I may have forgotten that it was a houserule, though.
Apologies right off the top for dragging this up from a dozen pages back. I'm a new 40k player; my sons and I are getting in via Kill Team (Necron/Tau/Marines & Guards). I've been lurking this thread trying to learn about Necrons and 40k in general. I know this doesn't follow the intent of this thread, but it was brought up in here ...
" ... field units in their entirety ...": We've played KT from the beginning that our teams were built per model (we're all noobs). Skoffs seems to be implying that the KT's must be built as regular squads (per codex minimums?). EnTyme's comment seems to agree, but where does it specify such a restriction? I figured as long as we met the unit types and restrictions per the KT rules, we were free to build as we saw fit within 200 points. Thanks in advance.
Has anyone run a Mephrit CCB w/Voltaic Staff, Tesla Cannon and wl trait Merciless Tyrant? Toying with the idea of running this in an upcoming LGS tournament. Didn't know how successful it was.
Also, since this upcoming tournament will be using ITC Champion's Missions (specifically looking at 1st floor ruins being LOS blocking), has anyone placed a DDA (FLY keyword) on top of a building or top floor of ruins to avoid LOS blocking terrain?
Potential list
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Necrons) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Mephrit
+ HQ +
Catacomb Command Barge: Artefact (Mephrit): The Voltaic Staff, Staff of Light, Tesla Cannon
. Warlord: Warlord Trait (Mephrit): Merciless Tyrant
Cryptek: Canoptek Cloak, Staff of Light
+ Troops +
Immortals: Gauss Blaster, 10x Immortal
Immortals: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine
Immortals: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine
+ Heavy Support +
Doomsday Ark
++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Necrons) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Dynastic Heirlooms: Dynastic Heirlooms: 1 Extra Artefact (-1CP)
Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Nephrekh
+ HQ +
Destroyer Lord: Artefact: The Nanoscarab Casket, Phylactery, Warscythe
+ Elites +
C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer: Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor, Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire
Cloaktek moves with the CCB/Immortals or DDA. Destroyers and DLord (inevitable melee) run together, either starting on the table (6CP) or both deepstriking (4CP). Nightbringer runs with the Wraiths. Scarabs acting like younger siblings when possible.
Nightfish wrote: Has anyone run a Mephrit CCB w/Voltaic Staff, Tesla Cannon and wl trait Merciless Tyrant? Toying with the idea of running this in an upcoming LGS tournament. Didn't know how successful it was.
Also, since this upcoming tournament will be using ITC Champion's Missions (specifically looking at 1st floor ruins being LOS blocking), has anyone placed a DDA (FLY keyword) on top of a building or top floor of ruins to avoid LOS blocking terrain?
Potential list
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Necrons) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Mephrit
+ HQ +
Catacomb Command Barge: Artefact (Mephrit): The Voltaic Staff, Staff of Light, Tesla Cannon
. Warlord: Warlord Trait (Mephrit): Merciless Tyrant
Cryptek: Canoptek Cloak, Staff of Light
+ Troops +
Immortals: Gauss Blaster, 10x Immortal
Immortals: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine
Immortals: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine
+ Heavy Support +
Doomsday Ark
++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Necrons) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Dynastic Heirlooms: Dynastic Heirlooms: 1 Extra Artefact (-1CP)
Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Nephrekh
+ HQ +
Destroyer Lord: Artefact: The Nanoscarab Casket, Phylactery, Warscythe
+ Elites +
C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer: Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor, Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire
Cloaktek moves with the CCB/Immortals or DDA. Destroyers and DLord (inevitable melee) run together, either starting on the table (6CP) or both deepstriking (4CP). Nightbringer runs with the Wraiths. Scarabs acting like younger siblings when possible.
Yes. Yes yes yes yes yes.
The character sniping is extremely powerful, definitely recommend.
List looks solid too. Good luck!
Nightfish wrote: Has anyone run a Mephrit CCB w/Voltaic Staff, Tesla Cannon and wl trait Merciless Tyrant? Toying with the idea of running this in an upcoming LGS tournament. Didn't know how successful it was.
Also, since this upcoming tournament will be using ITC Champion's Missions (specifically looking at 1st floor ruins being LOS blocking), has anyone placed a DDA (FLY keyword) on top of a building or top floor of ruins to avoid LOS blocking terrain?
Potential list
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Necrons) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Mephrit
+ HQ +
Catacomb Command Barge: Artefact (Mephrit): The Voltaic Staff, Staff of Light, Tesla Cannon
. Warlord: Warlord Trait (Mephrit): Merciless Tyrant
Cryptek: Canoptek Cloak, Staff of Light
+ Troops +
Immortals: Gauss Blaster, 10x Immortal
Immortals: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine
Immortals: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine
+ Heavy Support +
Doomsday Ark
++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Necrons) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Dynastic Heirlooms: Dynastic Heirlooms: 1 Extra Artefact (-1CP)
Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Nephrekh
+ HQ +
Destroyer Lord: Artefact: The Nanoscarab Casket, Phylactery, Warscythe
+ Elites +
C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer: Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor, Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire
Cloaktek moves with the CCB/Immortals or DDA. Destroyers and DLord (inevitable melee) run together, either starting on the table (6CP) or both deepstriking (4CP). Nightbringer runs with the Wraiths. Scarabs acting like younger siblings when possible.
I have against tau, he was relying on firesight marksman for markerlights and didn't expect 3 s6 ap-3 2D shots to come flying across at 18inchs backed by a tesla cannon. He charged his fusion cold star to fry it (which I think was a knee jerk reaction on his part) and the quantum shielding ate the wounds
Against any army that is reliant on characters in 1 way or another it is a very deadly unit that's tough to bring down.
Nightfish wrote: Has anyone run a Mephrit CCB w/Voltaic Staff, Tesla Cannon and wl trait Merciless Tyrant? Toying with the idea of running this in an upcoming LGS tournament. Didn't know how successful it was.
I've run it a couple times and while threatening, without an invuln the CCB will get wrecked in a single fight phase against celestine/demon prince.
Odovacer wrote: " ... field units in their entirety ...": We've played KT from the beginning that our teams were built per model (we're all noobs). Skoffs seems to be implying that the KT's must be built as regular squads (per codex minimums?). EnTyme's comment seems to agree, but where does it specify such a restriction?
What version of Killteam are you playing?
In the 7th ed. version models in units can all act independently from each other but still have to be paid for as a whole codex legal unit. (In the CHOOSING YOUR KILLTEAM section,
"Designer’s Note: Even though units are selected as squads in a Kill Team as normal, every model acts independently during the game itself. Effectively, each model acts as a single unit in its own right, as explained in further detail later (see Every Man for Himself).")
So if you want to take Immortals, you can't just take one or two, you need to take five at minimum.
Alternatively, there is the fan made version that most people prefer over the official one-
http://heralds-of-ruin.blogspot.dk/p/kill-team-rules.html You're allowed to take individual models instead of being forced to take whole units in that version.
We're getting a new version for 8th so very much looking forward to that (hopefully they'll have taken a lot of notes from Heralds of Ruin).
Are deathmarks worth it? If a unit appears out of nowhere, they get a free shot. They could also be used to appear on objectives. They are a little pricey but at least they are 3+. A unit of 5 is only doing 1-2 mortals, but they could have -1AP easy, and the mortals are extra.
Woolly.Mammoth wrote: Are deathmarks worth it? If a unit appears out of nowhere, they get a free shot. They could also be used to appear on objectives. They are a little pricey but at least they are 3+. A unit of 5 is only doing 1-2 mortals, but they could have -1AP easy, and the mortals are extra.
As has been posted several times, there are ways to make Deathmarks work more effectively (Mephrit with nearby Veil-Lord). Plus the abilities you stated (counter punch to alphas, appear on a clutch objective) make them pretty versatile.
Nightfish wrote: Has anyone run a Mephrit CCB w/Voltaic Staff, Tesla Cannon and wl trait Merciless Tyrant? Toying with the idea of running this in an upcoming LGS tournament. Didn't know how successful it was.
Also, since this upcoming tournament will be using ITC Champion's Missions (specifically looking at 1st floor ruins being LOS blocking), has anyone placed a DDA (FLY keyword) on top of a building or top floor of ruins to avoid LOS blocking terrain?
Potential list
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Necrons) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Mephrit
+ HQ +
Catacomb Command Barge: Artefact (Mephrit): The Voltaic Staff, Staff of Light, Tesla Cannon
. Warlord: Warlord Trait (Mephrit): Merciless Tyrant
Cryptek: Canoptek Cloak, Staff of Light
+ Troops +
Immortals: Gauss Blaster, 10x Immortal
Immortals: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine
Immortals: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine
+ Heavy Support +
Doomsday Ark
++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Necrons) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Dynastic Heirlooms: Dynastic Heirlooms: 1 Extra Artefact (-1CP)
Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Nephrekh
+ HQ +
Destroyer Lord: Artefact: The Nanoscarab Casket, Phylactery, Warscythe
+ Elites +
C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer: Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor, Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire
Cloaktek moves with the CCB/Immortals or DDA. Destroyers and DLord (inevitable melee) run together, either starting on the table (6CP) or both deepstriking (4CP). Nightbringer runs with the Wraiths. Scarabs acting like younger siblings when possible.
You can split Scarabs for extra flexibility. Min unit is easy to hide and block DS and char shooting.
Cryptek [6 PL, 85pts]: Canoptek Cloak, Staff of Light
+ Heavy Support +
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
Heavy Destroyers [3 PL, 57pts] . Heavy Destroyer: Heavy Gauss Cannon
++ Total: [106 PL, 2000pts] ++
Thoughts?
That's a pretty good first list, actually.
The second one doesn't actually open for some reason, but looking at the info while quoting it,
Heavy Destroyers get nothing from the Nihilakh code (plus they're not really very good atm).
Otherwise it seems okay.
Thats very odd. I cant figure out why it won't open. Yes i know the destroyer gains nothing but i need a third heavy to fill out the spear head and i really just dont like the spider.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Second attempt at the second list.
Odovacer wrote: " ... field units in their entirety ...": We've played KT from the beginning that our teams were built per model (we're all noobs). Skoffs seems to be implying that the KT's must be built as regular squads (per codex minimums?). EnTyme's comment seems to agree, but where does it specify such a restriction?
What version of Killteam are you playing? ... (In the CHOOSING YOUR KILLTEAM section, "Designer’s Note: Even though units are selected as squads in a Kill Team as normal ...
So if you want to take Immortals, you can't just take one or two, you need to take five at minimum.
Alternatively, there is the fan made version that most people prefer over the official one-
http://heralds-of-ruin.blogspot.dk/p/kill-team-rules.html You're allowed to take individual models instead of being forced to take whole units in that version
Ahhh ok, that would have been readily apparent to anyone who's been playing straight 40k regularly. We're playing 7th edition at the moment.
I'm aware of HoR. I like the look of their campaign version. Still, probably continue as is and, like EnTyme, just house rule it for now. Helps us get to know more units and we aren't planning on competing in the near future. We're still trying to get the rules down.
Also, I like to see all the models in play. I don't get the business model where your rules and setup actually limit the sales of certain models. I mean how cool (and terrifying!) would a horde of Flayed Ones be?! Was hoping 8th would address this more. The 'Crons are better, but still a lot of models that won't see much love.
punisher357 wrote: Is the necron video on warhammer tv even worth watching? Seems like it was a flop from what I've heard so far
I'm not subscribed so I can't watch the replay.
I was able to catch the end half of the tactics section and the game live but missed the lore part completely.
Tactics weren't really "how to play this unit" so much as "why we gave this unit these rules/point cost".
The game was with an absolute joke of a Necrons list so not a lot that can be gleaned from it (apart from "how not to make a Necrons list" maybe). The guy doesn't play Necrons and had only just looked at the codex once prior to the game so was making rules mistakes and rookie moves all game. They called it after turn three, I think.
punisher357 wrote: Is the necron video on warhammer tv even worth watching? Seems like it was a flop from what I've heard so far
I'm not subscribed so I can't watch the replay.
I was able to catch the end half of the tactics section and the game live but missed the lore part completely.
Tactics weren't really "how to play this unit" so much as "why we gave this unit these rules/point cost".
The game was with an absolute joke of a Necrons list so not a lot that can be gleaned from it (apart from "how not to make a Necrons list" maybe). The guy doesn't play Necrons and had only just looked at the codex once prior to the game so was making rules mistakes and rookie moves all game. They called it after turn three, I think.
They called it at the end of turn four. Jamie was also hindered in model selection as he was using the studio's Novokh collection.
As for the lore, I only managed to hear the first half and it was all a rehash of what's in the codex dealing with the origins of the Necrons.
Realistically the real person to blame for the gakky list is the original Necron player. Wether he was sick or not his list should have been done prior to the game. He should have sent his list on to the person subbing his game rather than let a noob make a list from an army he only spent 30 minutes glossing over.
I don't think that game sold GW many Necorn Codex's. If anything, people probably returned them thinking we are useless.
I'm finding Lychguard to be surprisingly affective. They either soak bullets like champs or, using the veil, can be a top notch counter charging unit to just appear whenever enemy melee units are getting too close or have charged. Really enjoying them with sword & board
Yeah whilst I’d like to just have a more normal transport that let me cleanly get a unit across the board and deploy it with characters hitching along, there are a few options to get Lychguard into play. Teleport with a relic, use a command point to disembark a character with them from a night scythe, or give them an effective 11-12 inch move with Kutlakh until Maynark eventually get their own dynasty trait, probably years from now.
changemod wrote: Yeah whilst I’d like to just have a more normal transport that let me cleanly get a unit across the board and deploy it with characters hitching along, there are a few options to get Lychguard into play. Teleport with a relic, use a command point to disembark a character with them from a night scythe, or give them an effective 11-12 inch move with Kutlakh until Maynark eventually get their own dynasty trait, probably years from now.
Use Maynark as Nephrekh and you can advance the Lychguard 6-7" plus 5" movement and still charge via Kutlakhs ability.
changemod wrote: Yeah whilst I’d like to just have a more normal transport that let me cleanly get a unit across the board and deploy it with characters hitching along, there are a few options to get Lychguard into play. Teleport with a relic, use a command point to disembark a character with them from a night scythe, or give them an effective 11-12 inch move with Kutlakh until Maynark eventually get their own dynasty trait, probably years from now.
Use Maynark as Nephrekh and you can advance the Lychguard 6-7" plus 5" movement and still charge via Kutlakhs ability.
That’s what I said, yeah. Effective 11-12 inch move.
changemod wrote: Yeah whilst I’d like to just have a more normal transport that let me cleanly get a unit across the board and deploy it with characters hitching along, there are a few options to get Lychguard into play. Teleport with a relic, use a command point to disembark a character with them from a night scythe, or give them an effective 11-12 inch move with Kutlakh until Maynark eventually get their own dynasty trait, probably years from now.
Use Maynark as Nephrekh and you can advance the Lychguard 6-7" plus 5" movement and still charge via Kutlakhs ability.
That’s what I said, yeah. Effective 11-12 inch move.
And don't forget he doesn't have a set trait, so you can game the system and use any trait you want that's generic, and our generic traits are actually pretty good.
Odrankt wrote: Realistically the real person to blame for the gakky list is the original Necron player. Wether he was sick or not his list should have been done prior to the game. He should have sent his list on to the person subbing his game rather than let a noob make a list from an army he only spent 30 minutes glossing over.
I don't think that game sold GW many Necorn Codex's. If anything, people probably returned them thinking we are useless.
In my opinion that is not that bad... to seem to have a bad codex can play to the necrons side. Noone expects much and there could be some special treatment.
But at the moment everything depends on the faq...
changemod wrote: Yeah whilst I’d like to just have a more normal transport that let me cleanly get a unit across the board and deploy it with characters hitching along, there are a few options to get Lychguard into play. Teleport with a relic, use a command point to disembark a character with them from a night scythe, or give them an effective 11-12 inch move with Kutlakh until Maynark eventually get their own dynasty trait, probably years from now.
Use Maynark as Nephrekh and you can advance the Lychguard 6-7" plus 5" movement and still charge via Kutlakhs ability.
Is this a legal move in tournament environment?
I can remember this was discussed some pages before, but i cant find the reason/conclusion why this could be allowed.
Edit:
We dont got a real model for Kutlakh either as far as i know...
) and want to get it finalised for my 3 games next week Vs tau, Drukhari & space wolves.
There is one major problem I faced with all these powers though, which brings me to the final point.
