Fleshbane is found under the 'Dirty Fighter' specialist chart. Next to the name Fleshbane are 2 asterisks. Scrolling down to the bottom there are 2 asterisks followed by the words 'applies to Specialists close combat attacks only'.
Yes, you can take Fleshbane on a flamer, but it does seem fairly pointless as it only applies to punching.
Sorry if it comes off a little 'holier then thou', it is most sincerely not my intent. One of the guys at the store I sometimes frequent was using things like this to crush a new kiddo (purposely I might add. I'd pointed it out to him the month before). It &*^%'s me off to no end.
Farseer Anath'lan wrote: Fleshbane is found under the 'Dirty Fighter' specialist chart. Next to the name Fleshbane are 2 asterisks. Scrolling down to the bottom there are 2 asterisks followed by the words 'applies to Specialists close combat attacks only'.
Yes, you can take Fleshbane on a flamer, but it does seem fairly pointless as it only applies to punching.
Sorry if it comes off a little 'holier then thou', it is most sincerely not my intent. One of the guys at the store I sometimes frequent was using things like this to crush a new kiddo (purposely I might add. I'd pointed it out to him the month before). It &*^%'s me off to no end.
The only thing that can take Fleshbane among the Kill Team specialists, is the Dirty Fighter, and it has a note saying Close Combat attacks only. Apparently, it didn't tell me about the other posts to this effect before I posted.
Giving a flamer Rending or Sniper is funny though.
Highlander tournaments allow you to take no more than one of any unit, expect for troops from codexes with only one troop choice. Dedicated Transports seem to be another exception. Sister could take two or more BSS, and even do a mini-Immie spam within the Highlander restrictions.
So after 70 odd pages are people still seeing small units with flamers in immos as the most effective builds with a friendly neighbourhood priest riding shotgun of course!
Ceann Fine wrote: So after 70 odd pages are people still seeing small units with flamers in immos as the most effective builds with a friendly neighbourhood priest riding shotgun of course!
No. I usually run F/HF in a Rhino for my scoring plus one big blob with priests. Still my favorite build.
Ceann Fine wrote: So after 70 odd pages are people still seeing small units with flamers in immos as the most effective builds with a friendly neighbourhood priest riding shotgun of course!
No. I usually run F/HF in a Rhino for my scoring plus one big blob with priests. Still my favorite build.
Ceann Fine wrote: So after 70 odd pages are people still seeing small units with flamers in immos as the most effective builds with a friendly neighbourhood priest riding shotgun of course!
Well, a mix of MSU hammers and a 20-Sister blob with Priest and/or Jacobus as the anvil. It's a good codex compared to the White Dwarf one, but we are still starved for choice of unit types (hence my feverish homebrewing to make more), which in turn means there are not many great combos.
Farseer Anath'lan wrote: Is a knight a worthwhile investment for a Sisters army? I've seen several that include them, and it got me wondering whether or not to acquire one.
They do look like they can bring some nice killing power, at the risk of concentrated points. It's also fluffy, oddly enough.
So, Paladin, or Errant? If at all?
Its a expensive model but offers a number of things to the Sororitas is my opinion - durable and L/R firepower as well as devastating close combat ability in both variants that can't be ignored.
Played one last night - although opponent changed so caught off guard when he turned up with one as well!
I played a bit cagy with mine (despite knowing from other posts that you should charge it at your enemy.....(for reasons discovered later) and lured him towards me, hoping to kill it with melta shots and leaving the field clear for my own to mop up - nearly worked as it went down by 3 hits from my Canones and her squad alone (melta girl and a krak Grenade from another sister with her ( ), dropped another hit with the melta from my own knight but did not quite kill it..............
Consequently he charged my undamaged Knight with his dying one, and took 5 hits off me from some fire and his chainsword - I hit him and cut it in half which meant it exploded - killing my Knight which then in turn exploded ..... lots of craters!
I discovered that Knights are also time bombs!
I have gone for a Errent as I think its more in keeping
That was my thought (Trinity all the way). Maybe I'll have a chat with the guys about swapping out the stubber for a HB (15pts seems reasonable). But yeah, Errant seem to fit the modus operandi of the Sisters a little more.
I personally would not pay 15pts for a HB. The stubber has 1 purpose only: firing it at what you want to charge. If you get kills with it it's just bonus =P
Knights blowing up is usually what turns the tide of the battles i play:
Turn 1 & 2 the entirety of the enemy army will fire at your knight (almost), leave the rest of your army to do as you please.
Turn 2 -3 ish your knight blows up near the enemy line, usually in close combat (2 Trygons so far and a few other enemies of my choice) killing both said target and wounding/killing a lot around it...
Also, i am in need of help with Tactics/List change:
Currently having an in-store Tournament, list at 1600, and one the the enemies I "fear" the most would have something along the lines of:
3 x Riptides - Interceptor, Skyfire
Outflanking Kroot x 1 or 2
Pathfinders x 1
Fire warriors x 1
And other fluff around (not played the army yet and do not know Codex:Tau well enough)
Ovion wrote: They look at you and say 'what's Anti Air'.
Though generally I'd say adding in an Aegis, or Heavy Bolters / Exorcists will be sufficient for most AA duties.
There's also the Avenger Strike Fighter for air support.
You could also ally in some marines or guard.
Personally, I tend to use Heavy Bolters with my repentia, though I will be doing an Avenger or two at some point.
Avenger is a pretty good AA choice, especially since it still has a non-FAQed Deep strike (if needed) and S6 - S9 weapons with Skyfire.
Its Rear heavy stubber is also excellent at Grounding FMC =)
If you do not want/have an avenger, then Bastion or Aegis defence lines are for you
BlackTalos wrote: Also, i am in need of help with Tactics/List change:
Currently having an in-store Tournament, list at 1600, and one the the enemies I "fear" the most would have something along the lines of:
3 x Riptides - Interceptor, Skyfire
Outflanking Kroot x 1 or 2
Pathfinders x 1
Fire warriors x 1
And other fluff around (not played the army yet and do not know Codex:Tau well enough)
So i'm in need of Tactical advice, because i feel like i'm just about to get shot down entirely on turn 1?
I would think the Tau player is equally worried about your Knight - especially if you can reduce the chance sof Riptides Deep striking nearby by placing other units nearby at the start. If you can get up there amongst his stuff with it he will have to kill it - it should slaughter riptides in CC - if it can catch them
Not sure about some of your choices personally - I would go for smaller Sisters units in transports - the only real downside is the stunned etc possbility - but thats true of all DT except Cheese Serpents
I like the Mantle on the Canoness if using her as Eternal Warrior is good.
BlackTalos wrote: Also, i am in need of help with Tactics/List change:
Currently having an in-store Tournament, list at 1600, and one the the enemies I "fear" the most would have something along the lines of:
3 x Riptides - Interceptor, Skyfire
Outflanking Kroot x 1 or 2
Pathfinders x 1
Fire warriors x 1
And other fluff around (not played the army yet and do not know Codex:Tau well enough)
So i'm in need of Tactical advice, because i feel like i'm just about to get shot down entirely on turn 1?
I would think the Tau player is equally worried about your Knight - especially if you can reduce the chance sof Riptides Deep striking nearby by placing other units nearby at the start. If you can get up there amongst his stuff with it he will have to kill it - it should slaughter riptides in CC - if it can catch them
Not sure about some of your choices personally - I would go for smaller Sisters units in transports - the only real downside is the stunned etc possbility - but thats true of all DT except Cheese Serpents
I like the Mantle on the Canoness if using her as Eternal Warrior is good.
As said i've not played him yet, but would the Riptides not be able to take down the Knight in a few turns?
The army is played as the typical "at the back of my table, come to me" so i would not worry excessively about DS Riptides
I do see the 5-10 sisters in Rhino in all lists and wonder why i'm still foot-slogging but until i get the extra Rhino that won't change much (i would cut down on the squad numbers if there is a good reason - or down to 2 troops rather than the 3)
Mantle on the canoness is technically to tank most wounds on the re-rollable 3+, with LoS on anything S6 + although it worked in my mind, i realise i've played her at the back of the squad and never tested this...
Mechanising the army will be a priority. Any advice on how to actually advance?
So far it's Dominions on Scout and within enemy lines if i get first turn, Outflanking if i go second.
Most of the army advancing, supplying targets while Exorcists, HBs and Avenger clean up. (The 2 10-girl squad well spread will almost always attract fire as they walk up the board =P )
So, I'm strongly considering Pask + friend + death blob setups and I've been going back and forth on this, but so far I've come up with:
Inquisitor with power armor, 3 servo skulls, Hammerhand, that libram that lets you have scout, rad grenades
Priest with litanies of the faith
7x Priests (One to put up the other buff, 6 to smash)
1 Engineseer (for Pask's benefit)
3 primaris psykers (extra force weapons and to fish through divination and biomancy)
582 points already, though in all fairness some of those guys are in there just to hide in the blob rather than to buff it itself
At this point, without the charge bonus the blob gets 18 S4 AP2 attacks, 2 S5 AP2 attacks, 13 force weapon attacks (either S5 AP2 at I1 or S4 AP3 at I 3 and 4), 6 S4 AP - attacks. If one was willing to shell out 90 more points those 18 S4 AP2 attacks become S6 AP2 attacks at I3. All these attacks re-roll to hit and wound, all saves are rerolled in close combat. For shooting attacks you've got 4 S4 AP2 attacks from any psyker that didn't roll a thing you wanted on Biomancy. You have the options to take some plasma pistols, but why?
The powers you're fishing for:
-(div)everyone gets 4++ (if not, you have spare priests),
-(div)Forcing the enemy to reroll successful saving throws. In fact, getting multiple uses out of this one would be amazing given that Pask and his unit are going to be engaging up to 3 targets
-(bio) -1T and S to an enemy unit. Because having your S3 guys instant death MEQ on every swing is funny. Also, because this lets you hurt up to T8 things with every attack. (Also helps Pask and friends sweep secondary targets off the table and prevents the enemy from scoring that many wounds on you.)
-(bio)The one that gives relentless, IWND, and FNP. If the troops in this unit have a mass of rapid fire guns... yeah, this is the one that's the reason your psykers aren't all divination all the time, also FNP helps against enemies putting out lots of weaker attacks, and IWND heals your multi-wound models if they do get hurt. FNP also helps your psykers with perils of the warp.
Powers that are situationally useful
-(bio)Things that buff the psyker (meh... the initiative and or str one might be nice situationally, but you have so many attacks already and you're already tanking the incoming damage well enough)
-(div)overwatch at full BS (maybe? Depends on who the troops will be)
-(bio)lifeleech, your psykers shouldn't be taking damage, but if they they get a perils of the warp
-(bio)Haemorage, if you got enfeeble and the enemy has a bunch of T3-T4 guys this might be OK? (Actually if the inquisitor can toss a rad grenade to go with that Enfeeble, play the fun game of how many T3 dudes have to die before he can roll a 1... starting with the one you picked. Can you LoS! focused witchfire?)
Now for the finishing touches. The troops in the squad:
50 guardsman blob? (Lots of ablative wounds, your majority WS is already 3, large foot print)
50 conscript blob? (Cheaper, tanks your majority WS further, but any enemy worth mentioning was probably already hitting you on 3+, these guys are even less likely to get anything done, but with hammerhand, rad grenades, reroll to hit and wound, and possibly enfeeble... yeah even 50 hits from these guys can be gross.) Most of the orders are kind of meh for this squad except the one that lets you split fire. What does shooting a single weapon at another squad do? It allows you to pour lasgun fire into one unit, while charging a different unit. There's few units that can stand up to your charge, wasting your shots on them too is even more overkill. This way you spread the killing.
20 Battle Sisters? (Smaller blob, but now you have a 3+, which is much nicer if you don't roll the 4++ from divination or your enemy goes first. Also re-rollable 3+ in melee is nicer)
12 Crusader Henchmen squad (Way smaller blob, but 3++ means not relying on divination and being able to survive nasty shooting too.) You could have a second squad of following behind ready to step in if the first set of crusaders gets chewed up (if the enemy wants to shoot at 3++ guys not part of your main blob... he can go right ahead).
12 Arco-flagellant squad. Because what you desperately need are 48 more S6 attacks against dudes who are down 1 to 2 toughness. (Yeah... no) Fun fact: these guys could put 4.5 wounds onto a Transcendent C'Tan while in this squad with just their attacks.
10 Celestians - Not scoring under any circumstances and fewer wounds than the 20 BSS (though 2 attacks, so there's that). Take them with a simulacrum because adding furious charge to this unit would be hilarious. Fun fact: the 6 smashing priests would be making S10 AP2 attacks that reroll armor pen at initiative with their CCW. (If you don't take the celestians, you'd have to at least give them maces to accomplish that). Might be fun just to be able to say that you've killed some AV14 things with nothing but a pocket knife and lots, and lots of faith.
5 Sisters command squad... more power weapons, can guarantee the FNP, take the banner to give you an extra 20ish attacks 80% of which are AP2 or 3. Forces you to take a Canoness, who as an eternal warrior with a 4++ can tank some hits for your blob. The command squad's act of faith also helps make sure you don't fail your charge (and/or allows you to use a distant unit to pull your blob forward by a lot more in a single turn)
Straken + CCS (at this point lose Pask :( or make this a guard army) With Straken, this unit is relentless and has furious charge as above, but relentless is a lot less awesome without having added some rapid fire guns to benefit from it. (meh) Straken has to eat the challenges, but he's making S8 attacks on the charge against people down 1-2T. He will turn non-EW T5-6 guys with unwieldy weapons into a fine meat paste before they can act.
Bullgryns with brute shields and power mauls. You know, because this unit didn't already cost your whole army in points... but S9 attacks at initiative? (Actually, they're bad compared to your priests who are way cheaper and more effective when they make their smashing attacks)
Also, I feel like your Warlord or Sisters HQ (if this becomes a guard army with a CCS) should go into this squad:
Best choice if you're going Sisters feels like it should be St. Celestine. Rerollable 2+ in close combat means most non-AP2 S5 or less attacks your unit will shrug off maintaining its combat power. Hit and Run at I7 allows you to not be tarpitted and/or reposition if your enemy somehow survives two assault phases. Celestine can also split off and hunt down small enemy scoring squads once you've cleared the table of high S low AP fire (or if you can keep her engaged during the enemy shooting phase so that she can't be shot at).
Uriah could be usable if your main unit is something that has an act of faith you'd like to use more of, but the unit is already fearless like 8 times over.
Canonness gives you an eternal warrior who can tank for the squad at 3+/4++, but meh?
So, I don't usually post because I haven't been playing recently. (I've been studying abroad for awhile, you see.) However, I'm going back stateside in a few months, and I want to come back 40k with a vengeance... and a lot of flamers.
I was admittedly a little let down at first by the new AS Codex, but after acquainting myself with the new 'dex and researching tactics here, I've reconciled my disappointment (mostly with the downgrade of Celestine... yes, it *should* have happened, just not after I finished making a really nice conversion of her... +sad face+) and am now actually quite hopeful for trying out the army for myself.
Anyways, I was curious about the best way to run Seraphim. (They're probably my favourite Sisters models... I've even outfitted my Superiors with Sanguinary Guard winged jump packs! ) I just don't know where to start with them. I was thinking that a full squad (maybe two) with Celestine would be good to deep strike in the later game to help "clean up," but, frankly, it's been so long since I've played that I really don't know what I'm doing. XP (And, yes, I do know the 6th ed. rules... it hasn't been *that* long.. >_> ) I supposed it's fair to say that I'm rather out-of-touch with the current state of the game/meta, in general... :/
I've been playing Sisters since they were Witch Hunters, so I have an extensive collection of AS and Inq to draw from. I'm not exactly looking for an entire army list, just the most interesting way to use and support Seraphim in battle.
I played another game of Killteam where nurgle bikers ate my lunch. He shielded them with cultists and I chewed through the cultists but the bikes charged me and I just couldn't hurt them.
In a larger game I'm thinking I'd have to send Celestine after them or target them with my excorcists.
In my local meta, there's no infantry that 10 bolter shots can easily dent. Hand flamers cost even more and now I'm having to position in very specific places and then hope for 5s or 6s. Sure, one turn they might shred a tightly packed squad, but that just makes it less likely the unit will be locked in combat during the opponent's shooting phase.
I will traditionally fail at least one charge with Celestine due to my shooting per game. The most ridiculous was when I flew her in so she could be 1" away for some bikers, then promptly flamed 2 and failed the 4" charge.
Yeah, Celestine seems to die a lot because she fails the charge and gets stuck in the open. I mean usually she makes her points back, but I'm not sure shooting her charge target is a good idea unless that charge was a desperate gamble to begin with. I liked inferno pistols, but their cost and super short range make them a poor choice.
Mavnas wrote: In my local meta, there's no infantry that 10 bolter shots can easily dent. Hand flamers cost even more and now I'm having to position in very specific places and then hope for 5s or 6s. Sure, one turn they might shred a tightly packed squad, but that just makes it less likely the unit will be locked in combat during the opponent's shooting phase.
I will traditionally fail at least one charge with Celestine due to my shooting per game. The most ridiculous was when I flew her in so she could be 1" away for some bikers, then promptly flamed 2 and failed the 4" charge.
4 Hand Flamers and a Heavy Flamer with Shred will put a dent in any infantry.
Thanks for the responses! I'll see how Seraphim work out for me when I get back. For now, I'm gonna paint a lot of basic Sisters and Special Weapons girls.
I know it's a long shot, but does anyone recognize the maker of these wings? After I checked the other major mini manufacturers, I Google searched for an hour with no luck. Figured someone here might know a thing or two about making some awesome angel conversions, what with the army being all saintly and such.
Mavnas wrote: In my local meta, there's no infantry that 10 bolter shots can easily dent. Hand flamers cost even more and now I'm having to position in very specific places and then hope for 5s or 6s. Sure, one turn they might shred a tightly packed squad, but that just makes it less likely the unit will be locked in combat during the opponent's shooting phase.
I will traditionally fail at least one charge with Celestine due to my shooting per game. The most ridiculous was when I flew her in so she could be 1" away for some bikers, then promptly flamed 2 and failed the 4" charge.
4 Hand Flamers and a Heavy Flamer with Shred will put a dent in any infantry.
Depends on how spaced out they are and what formation. If in a line you're getting 2 unless you hit them lengthwise, in which case successfully murdering everyone in flamer range = failed charge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also for fairness, compare 4 hand flamers to 6 bolt pistols (because the 20 points you save gets you another seraphim if you want).
Mavnas wrote: In my local meta, there's no infantry that 10 bolter shots can easily dent. Hand flamers cost even more and now I'm having to position in very specific places and then hope for 5s or 6s. Sure, one turn they might shred a tightly packed squad, but that just makes it less likely the unit will be locked in combat during the opponent's shooting phase.
I will traditionally fail at least one charge with Celestine due to my shooting per game. The most ridiculous was when I flew her in so she could be 1" away for some bikers, then promptly flamed 2 and failed the 4" charge.
4 Hand Flamers and a Heavy Flamer with Shred will put a dent in any infantry.
Depends on how spaced out they are and what formation. If in a line you're getting 2 unless you hit them lengthwise, in which case successfully murdering everyone in flamer range = failed charge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also for fairness, compare 4 hand flamers to 6 bolt pistols (because the 20 points you save gets you another seraphim if you want).
If you need to be in assault, then don't shoot. If you need to murder them, then shoot. It's not tough.
Can you play template placement shennigans so you flame the enemy unit at an angle and burn off the sides rather than the front, so you don't have to charge further?
SisterSydney wrote: Can you play template placement shennigans so you flame the enemy unit at an angle and burn off the sides rather than the front, so you don't have to charge further?
In general, yes. You circle around the unit so that you have multiple points that are closest.
Even if you have loose line of your Seraphim facing a loose line of enemy troops, though, couldn't you position the Hand Flamer sisters next to Celestine and then have them shoot away from her, so they fry the sides of the enemy formation but not the ones directly across from Celestine? You'll still be removing models from the front with bolt pistol fire, but the templates you can actually place more precisely.
SisterSydney wrote: Even if you have loose line of your Seraphim facing a loose line of enemy troops, though, couldn't you position the Hand Flamer sisters next to Celestine and then have them shoot away from her, so they fry the sides of the enemy formation but not the ones directly across from Celestine? You'll still be removing models from the front with bolt pistol fire, but the templates you can actually place more precisely.
You still remove models from the front from flame templates.
Yeah, but there are situations where I could have flamed better. For example I once had Celestine solo against 4 necron warrior at max spacing in an L. She was next to the long side of the L. The smart thing to do would have been to flame only the furthest warrior then charge finishing the unit. Instead I hit 3, killed two and failed the charge.
There's always opportunities to make better decisions. Against 4 necron warriors, you shouldn't have flamed at all. You'd easily take them all out in hand to hand.
The key, I think is to place her where she can rake the line at an angle without hitting the closest.
I will say the flamers are also good at hitting models from multiple nearby units, like the first time when I played against a tau player who taught me that markerlights can be used to overwatch at better BS. He snap fired two hits from the lights and the 33 firewarrior overwatch shots were made at BS3. When Celestine got up she fried one fire warrior and 4 of the pathfinders allowing me to still charge the fire warriors instead of the 2 surviving pathfinders.
Her flamer is great, I'm not sold on the hand flamers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote: There's always opportunities to make better decisions. Against 4 necron warriors, you shouldn't have flamed at all. You'd easily take them all out in hand to hand.
Maybe. On his next turn The Lord came over and scythed Celestine in two so I really would have had 6 swings to kill 4 T4 models (only 4/9ths chance on average). In the end I "won" via our tie-breaker of kill points, but had I wiped that unit, the enemy would have lost 5-2 for lack of scoring units.
He doesn't know either... :( He apparently picked it up from a bits bin at GenCon.
Anyways, to the topic at hand (Seraphim/Celestine v. Necrons): How do they fare in CC against Necrons? I would imagine AS initiative (especially Celestine...) would put the Sisters at an advantage, but Necrons are pretty hard to kill... Is it advisable to charge, do what you can to reduce the Necrons, and then run (via Hit and Run)? Or would most of the Seraphim just be dead?
(You have my full permission to treat me as a n00b... I *am* asking some pretty newbish questions XP )
On the subject of using flamers, remember that the rulebook states that each flame template must be placed so that the most models of the target unit can be hit. Considering this, I find it hard to imagine that a situation where your flamer template doesn't hit the closest model comes up more than once every three games or so. The only situation I can think of is when you have a unit with a broad front but still some three models deep, where you can hit one of the closest models and charge the other(s).
Brother Michael wrote: On the subject of using flamers, remember that the rulebook states that each flame template must be placed so that the most models of the target unit can be hit. Considering this, I find it hard to imagine that a situation where your flamer template doesn't hit the closest model comes up more than once every three games or so. The only situation I can think of is when you have a unit with a broad front but still some three models deep, where you can hit one of the closest models and charge the other(s).
It' not hard. Imagine:
C
Eeeeee
Where c is Celestine and E is the closest enemy. The most you can hit is a diagonal line not hitting the closest. Given 12" of movement you should be able to place here there.
Putting a squad in a position where 5 flamer templates can hit 5 of them at a time isn't really a matter of luck. (Unless it's the result of a super unlikely Land Raider explosion no one could have seen coming.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Termites are on 40mm bases?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, I guess a deep strike mishap where you get to place them where you want would also do it.
Mavnas wrote: Putting a squad in a position where 5 flamer templates can hit 5 of them at a time isn't really a matter of luck. (Unless it's the result of a super unlikely Land Raider explosion no one could have seen coming.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Termites are on 40mm bases?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, I guess a deep strike mishap where you get to place them where you want would also do it.
Yes, they are on 40mm, which makes it a bit easier.
I played a game against chaos today and I had a painfully hard time against his termintors and warpsmith. It seemed that +2 is a magic zone where I don't have volume of fire nor super powerful AP to kill them effectively. Seraphim killing all 5 termies? That's gotta be some bad luck for them. It was my first time using my priestesses and wow, they add so much its ridiculous.
Mavnas wrote: Putting a squad in a position where 5 flamer templates can hit 5 of them at a time isn't really a matter of luck. (Unless it's the result of a super unlikely Land Raider explosion no one could have seen coming.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Termites are on 40mm bases?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, I guess a deep strike mishap where you get to place them where you want would also do it.
Yes, they are on 40mm, which makes it a bit easier.
How is that easier. If they were in a line, you'd have to be 1" away from one end of that line and they'd all have to be in base to base contact for your flamer to even have a chance to reach the furthest one. At max spread, from exactly 1" away you might just barely touch the last guy. If you're getting 5 terminators in every single flamer template, your opponent has done something wrong.
Mavnas wrote: Putting a squad in a position where 5 flamer templates can hit 5 of them at a time isn't really a matter of luck. (Unless it's the result of a super unlikely Land Raider explosion no one could have seen coming.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Termites are on 40mm bases?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, I guess a deep strike mishap where you get to place them where you want would also do it.
Sorry, i was referring to terminators in my current meta, where they never walk, always deep strike, and usually have at least 1 gun they want to shoot so they stay in a nice little bunch for the flamers. Although some players are wiser to the Celetine+Seraphims, i don't actually play the combo anymore.
As for the maths: Just pick up 20 dice, roll 5+ (re-roll the 5+) then the 2+ armor, and tell me how many 1s on the second roll?
I know it's all averages, but there's usually less than 1 termy left (including the HF and 4 bolt pistols)
I once killed 2 TH/SS termies and a PA Libby with overwatch fire from Celestine and the remains of a Seraphim squad. Now that was cool. Alas I rarely run Celestine and the seraphim anymore. 2 squads of Melta doms and a squad of flamer doms now take up my fast slots.
Also you can't take Jaco as your warlord (that 5++ on a blob squad is too good to pass up) if you take Celestine, so I don't run her either, which is just as well as I'd want the Seraphim support.
20 Flamer dice with shred will kill (average) of ~1.85 (so ~2) Terminators. 4 bolt pistols with shred kill ~0.33 terminators. Assuming 4 hits with the heavy flamer with shred you kill ~1.48, so being generous and rounding up to 2, the unit with 4 bolt pistols, 20 hand flamer hits and 4 heavy flamer hits will kill about 4. (Just as an aside, shouldn't it be 6 bolt pistols? In which case you simply get better odds of killing 4).
Assuming they then charge, with no superior, and the termies having thunder hammer, Celestine strikes first, 6 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's, 2+save, mastercrafted.
4 hit, master crafted allows another hit on average, so 5. 3 wounds ave, 0.55 wounds.
Seraphim strike next, assuming no kill.
5x 3 (1 base, +1 two pistols, +1 charge, no HoW)=15
hitting on 4's, wounding on 5's, 2+ save. 0.42 wounds.
Termie should be dead. Just. Probably not advisable. I'm not even going to begin calculating the math on the overwatch kills evildrcheese mentioned.
Just as an aside, the storm shield on termies means little when they go up against Celestine and Seraphim. Just a tidbit.
pretre wrote: Each wound is 5/9 to wound, 5/36 to fail for the hand flamers.
Heavy Flamer is 8/9 to wound, 8/54 to fail.
So if you got all 5, you would have 100/36 from hand flamers and 40/54 from Heavy flamers. Which is only 3.51 termies.
6 bolt pistols is 4 hits, 3 Wounds. Another 1/2 dead for 4 total dead.
So, a little bad luck could have them die pretty easy.
I dont get the maths, can you break down how you got 5/9 and 5/36 for the Hand flamers? =P
Also, you counted shred right?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Farseer Anath'lan wrote: 20 Flamer dice with shred will kill (average) of ~1.85 (so ~2) Terminators. 4 bolt pistols with shred kill ~0.33 terminators. Assuming 4 hits with the heavy flamer with shred you kill ~1.48, so being generous and rounding up to 2, the unit with 4 bolt pistols, 20 hand flamer hits and 4 heavy flamer hits will kill about 4. (Just as an aside, shouldn't it be 6 bolt pistols? In which case you simply get better odds of killing 4).
Assuming they then charge, with no superior, and the termies having thunder hammer, Celestine strikes first, 6 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's, 2+save, mastercrafted.
4 hit, master crafted allows another hit on average, so 5. 3 wounds ave, 0.55 wounds.
Seraphim strike next, assuming no kill.
5x 3 (1 base, +1 two pistols, +1 charge, no HoW)=15
hitting on 4's, wounding on 5's, 2+ save. 0.42 wounds.
Termie should be dead. Just. Probably not advisable. I'm not even going to begin calculating the math on the overwatch kills evildrcheese mentioned.
Just as an aside, the storm shield on termies means little when they go up against Celestine and Seraphim. Just a tidbit.
Enough math hammer for now.
Sorry, to that you add the superior with plasma pistol, which adds the 2/3 chance of the last 1 out of the 5 to die =P
I guess that for the maths that was a very large omission...
A Superior with a plasma pistol and bolt pistol has a ~71% chance to kill a termie. So yes, that majorly buffs the units chance of killing the termie unit.
Yeah, I wouldn't count on pulling that overwatch stunt again, it left both me and my opponent gob smacked. I wish the Seraphim were an elite choice as I love the models and used to run 2 squads of ten back in the witch hunter days and I don't think I ever run any elite choices as they just don't perform.
The problem with all these stories is that they all assume the enemy will bunch up in range of a unit containing 5 flamer templates. While being able to smack my opponent hard for making tactical errors, I don't build my list with the assumption that my opponent will just feed my flamers with optimal targets.
evildrcheese wrote: Yeah, I wouldn't count on pulling that overwatch stunt again, it left both me and my opponent gob smacked. I wish the Seraphim were an elite choice as I love the models and used to run 2 squads of ten back in the witch hunter days and I don't think I ever run any elite choices as they just don't perform.
If you can find an opponent who allows homebrewed units, use the Seraphim models as elite Principalities and tell me how it goes....
Mavnas wrote: The problem with all these stories is that they all assume the enemy will bunch up in range of a unit containing 5 flamer templates. While being able to smack my opponent hard for making tactical errors, I don't build my list with the assumption that my opponent will just feed my flamers with optimal targets.
It may not happen all the time, but often enough when people deepstrike shooty units and/or roll badly for their Run/Consildation moves.
Mavnas wrote: The problem with all these stories is that they all assume the enemy will bunch up in range of a unit containing 5 flamer templates. While being able to smack my opponent hard for making tactical errors, I don't build my list with the assumption that my opponent will just feed my flamers with optimal targets.
It may not happen all the time, but often enough when people deepstrike shooty units and/or roll badly for their Run/Consildation moves.
And also does this within 18" of the Celestine + seraphim unit. If said unit is busy killing his scoring units, then it won't be in a good position to deal with people deep striking in your area.
Mavnas wrote: The problem with all these stories is that they all assume the enemy will bunch up in range of a unit containing 5 flamer templates. While being able to smack my opponent hard for making tactical errors, I don't build my list with the assumption that my opponent will just feed my flamers with optimal targets.
It may not happen all the time, but often enough when people deepstrike shooty units and/or roll badly for their Run/Consildation moves.
And also does this within 18" of the Celestine + seraphim unit. If said unit is busy killing his scoring units, then it won't be in a good position to deal with people deep striking in your area.
Agreed. I basically treat my Seraphim as Forlorne Hope, DS's them behind enemy lines to take out whatever unit I find most annoying (coughnecronlordsquadcough) and than shrug as they die next turn at whatever's around to outgun/AP3 them.
Sometimes they survive more than one turn, though. Angelic Visage can surprise you sometimes. And the eldar player just hates having Celestine hacking through his cheaper troops .
Wait, eldar have non-T6 3+ troops armed with D-scythes?
But yeah, I've had Celestine single-handedly wipe out a squad of long fangs and a bike squad or multiple tac squads in a game. She's very good until she eats some plasma to the face... Twice :(
Or an Imperial Knights army, maybe (target saturation!). Or maybe the one other Sisters player in the universe who decided to take 18 Penitent Engines, because that battle would be gloriously insane.
If only penitent engines would work with promethium relay pipes they'd have a niche role... but those don't allow vehicles to get torrenting flamers :(
So I have a lot of experience with sisters, and I want to play them at some tournaments this summer. I am inexperienced with guard, but they are now both fluffy and effective allies, and I need some help figuring out how to do this.
No dataslates, escalation or stronghold. 2++ rerollable became 2++ rerollable 4++
I expect all of the hard builds, triple knights, screamerstar, ovesa star, taudar, russ-heavy guard...
That is 1395. I would like a manticore, a vendetta with a scoring unit, and a fearless bubblewrap squad for the artillery. I would like to twin link all of the artillery, and would like 3 servo skulls to help with scatter and infiltrators.
I am not opposed to dropping units to a degree, but I want as many scoring unit bearing immolators as I can get in their face.
Inigo Montoya wrote: So I have a lot of experience with sisters, and I want to play them at some tournaments this summer. I am inexperienced with guard, but they are now both fluffy and effective allies, and I need some help figuring out how to do this.
No dataslates, escalation or stronghold. 2++ rerollable became 2++ rerollable 4++
I expect all of the hard builds, triple knights, screamerstar, ovesa star, taudar, russ-heavy guard...
That is 1395. I would like a manticore, a vendetta with a scoring unit, and a fearless bubblewrap squad for the artillery. I would like to twin link all of the artillery.
I am not opposed to dropping units to a degree, but I want as many scoring unit bearing immolators as I can get in their face.
Help a brother out, will ya?
LOL! I'd love to see how that list does. I'd highly recommend the manticore and sticking a priest with some cheap IG troops to bubble wrap it isn't a bad idea.
Also, I would never torture myself enough to build 9 PE's let alone more. I quit at two. GW would have to make a new model for me to attempt that. If the models were fun to put together believe me, I'd have a ton more.
Do you find the Storm Bolters on the Immolators worth it? Drop them and find a few more pts and you would have aenough pts for a Dominon Squad in another Immolator or Rhino?
6 BSS is way overkill. I would drop 3 or so of those for Dominions. Also, Storm Bolters are silly. That's 45 points right there you can use for something else. Lastly, Canoness is simply the worst HQ you can take. Take Jacobus or Celestine.
If you have guard allies, 30-50 guard with Celestine, some priests, etc is a nasty scoring unit from hell.
I've run Sisters plus Manticore, Vendetta with PCS and Bubblewrap, it is really good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Without the codexes in front of me:
Celestine 3-5 Priests with Litanies and Mauls 3 BSS with Immos 2 Doms with Flamers and Immos or Rhinos 3 Exos Yarrick or CCS Blob Squad with Power Axes Other toys (Manticore, Vendetta, etc)
I'll have to dig up an old list, but that's roughly what I ran. (Obviously yarrick is new). You'll want to fit in a couple Primaris if you can as well.
One of my buddies has been talking about something like this list:
Spoiler:
Primary: SoB Secondary: AM
HQ: Saint Celestine - Warlord Company Command Squad w/ Lascannon, Vox Caster, Regimental Standard, Tactical Auto-etc... Primaris Psyker - 3x - Mastery Level 2 SoB Ministrum Priests - 5x - 3x Meltabombs , 1 Litanies of Faith
No. You'd need 150-225 for the divination alone, bubble wrap is going to cost you a bunch more, and the cheapest guard scoring unit is 36 points. (Actually, I lied you can put the PCS in there which you have to buy anyway to get the bubblewrap, but then you lose orders...)
At the very minimum you need 280 for the things you want and you still need an HQ for the guard detachment.
But you can drop the storm bolters definitely, and honestly, I'm not sure what the manticore does for you. That your other mass of S8 AP1 fire doesn't.
You could also go another route, drop the immolators down to rhinos, drop the combi weapons, rhinos have 2 fire points, coincidentally you have 2 melta guns per squad then.
Not a waste on exorcists I don't think - 50% chance to keep the missle launcher on a weapon destroyed...
I think the manticore might be replaced with 2 wyverns. That frees up points and provides some objective clearing capabilities that are more reliable than the manticore.
Inigo Montoya wrote: Not a waste on exorcists I don't think - 50% chance to keep the missle launcher on a weapon destroyed...
50% chance on a 1/6 chance that you get a weapon destroyed result that is an even lower chance that you get pen'd and aren't killed outright. I'd rather have a dozer blade.
Do me a favor, keep track of how many times it comes up in your games and how many times it is completely irrelevant. I think you'll notice a trend.
Hmm. A 5-point upgrade on a 125-point tank increases its cost by (5/125) = 4 percent. And an Exorcist without its missile launcher is pretty much useless. So, if the storm bolter saves the missile launcher 4% of the times you field it -- that is, one game in 25 -- it's still worth the price.
Plus you can, y'know, shoot stuff with it, especially advancing infantry that might destroy the Exorcist but that the Exorcist Missile Launcher can't target worth a damn.
Now a Storm Bolter on an Immolator is 5 points on top of 60 pts, or 8.3%, and the Immo is still useful as a transport and tank-shocker even if it loses its main gun, so there the Storm Bolter is probably not worth it.
Melissia wrote: Don't look at me, I never argued that razorback spam was "killed" (or particularly overpowered in its own right).
I actually had to check my post to see if I misquoted you or something! I haven't seen much evidence that razorspam no longer works either, honestly, but was curious why this was seen as such a huge positive for the AS book.
Razorspam and Rhino-rush both got nerfed significantly by hull points, Razorspam is still somewhat effective in that you have a twin heavy weapon on a dedicated transport that can be put into SM/GK/whatnot Troops. The Immolator has the disadvantage of being slightly more expensive and unable to purchase lascannons, it's too easy to destroy them from a distance before they can get into range.
Sisters of Battle under the current rules have the same fundamental premise they've always had: if you can get about 12" away from the enemy intact and unload with all the firepower you will tear them into bits, but you can't easily deal with being kept at arm's length or with people who have a way to get from 24+" distance into melee. I advise playing them on terrain-heavy boards and/or not against Tau.
SisterSydney wrote: Hmm. A 5-point upgrade on a 125-point tank increases its cost by (5/125) = 4 percent. And an Exorcist without its missile launcher is pretty much useless. So, if the storm bolter saves the missile launcher 4% of the times you field it -- that is, one game in 25 -- it's still worth the price.
Plus you can, y'know, shoot stuff with it, especially advancing infantry that might destroy the Exorcist but that the Exorcist Missile Launcher can't target worth a damn.
Now a Storm Bolter on an Immolator is 5 points on top of 60 pts, or 8.3%, and the Immo is still useful as a transport and tank-shocker even if it loses its main gun, so there the Storm Bolter is probably not worth it.
Much agreed =P
50% of 1/6 chance on a Pen is 8.3% by the way, so it is literally the right % price on the immo, and half-price on the Exorcists.
I like 50% discount on stuff, but not really full price
Mavnas wrote:Immolators have the advantage of being able to outflank when filled with dominions. I can see them having problems otherwise.
If you go first, deploy at the line, Scout and pop the biggest things on the board. If you go second, Outflank. That's my tactic.
Now you just have to figure out the % chance that your vehicle loses a weapon but is not destroyed. This chance will be higher on exorcists as the weapon less exorcist can be ignored, but an immo full of sisters is still a target.
BlackTalos wrote: I'm not sure i understand? You mean calculate the chance, once that 8% Pen + WD result has happened, that it is then destroyed by other shots?
Because that just depends on whether the enemy has 1 or 25 Lascanons and i think it's impossible to calculate =P
Yep, that's why I didn't even try, but if that chance is >50% then the exorcist's storm bolter isn't worth it. If it's over 0 then the immolator's isn't.
So, today I managed to get a game in with a couple friends at the game store and was quite surprised by the effectiveness of deep striking Seraphim. It was a 2v1, 2k game- Tau/Sisters vs. Eldar - with the game resulting into a Tau/Sisters victory.
Here is what the Eldar list was roughly (I don't really know Eldar that well mind you, so sorry if this is a little off)
1 Spiritseer + Voice of Twilight/Conceal
3 Warlocks + Conceal
2 Squads of 10 Guardians + Star Cannons
~8 (or whatever the max is) Jetbikes + 2x Shuriken cannons
2 Wave Serpents + Holofields + Scatter Laser + Shuriken + Bright Lance with 5 Wraithguard and 5 Wraithblades
2 Fire Prisms
Wraithknight + Sunfield thingy and 3 shot plasma cannon
Basically, I was surprised at the effectiveness of the Seraphim in shredding infantry. I'm still slightly new to Sisters and all the games I've had thus far the Seraphim (and Celestine) have been less than stellar, but I suspect that's likely because I just had them running across the field. Well, today I tried deep striking them to test whether it would be work better. Well, they came in turn 2 right next to the Jetbikes, and with all the flamers + Shred - wiped the squad out to a man. The following turn, after losing a single girl to random shuriken fire, they toasted a guardian squads with 25+ flamer wounds, and then wiped out the squad of Wraithblades and the Spiritseer thanks to Celestine's being a boss. Just the damage they did was very surprising, and I would say they won the game by themselves. 3 troops choices over the course of 3-4 turns is really quite devastating. Just thought I'd share my amazement haha.
I'd dive into a full battle report, but I'm super tired. If anyone wants to hear the full story I can write it up in the morning. No pictures sadly
Played my first club League game this week - against Grey Kinghts - good close game
I fielded (restrictions were no duplication of units except troops and their dedicated transports)
Cannoness with Rosarius, Power sword, Mantle, Combi-melta
Exorcist
3 Battle Sister squads (5) with flamer and multi-melta in MM Immolators
1 Dominon Squad wih 3 Meltas in Immolator (MM)
Retirbutor Squad with MM and 2 Hv Bolters, Rhino
Inquisitor with 3 Servo Skulls and Divination
Ageis Defence Line with Quad gun
Knight Errant
Versus
Grandsmaster Mordrak with two Terminator Squads
1 Purgaton Squad
DreadKnight
1 Interceptor Squad
Vindicare
Deployed with the Retributor, Inquisitor and Exorcist behind the Line between buildings, flanked by Dominion and Sister squads on one flank and Errant and last Squad on the other.
Opponent seized Initiative - which is a habit with him Vindicare blew up scouting Dominon Squad and the explosion/ Dreadknight killed all but one of the passengers, it failed to charge the survivor who went to ground in the crater
Interceptor squad teleported close and failed to destroy the two immolators
Grandmaster and 1 term squad teleported behind the agesis, losing a single Term to the quad gun and tried to kill the Exorcist - took 2 hull pts off it but it survived.
Despite the worry of the Grey Knight being up and close, reacted well (for a change)
The two Sisters squads piled out, got Preferred Enemy and blasted one Interceptor combat squad out of existence, whilst the Knight and the Cannoness's squad advanced on the other flank., The Knight missed the Vindicare with its Melta
The Exorcist pivoted to bring its front armour against the Grandmaster, rolled 6 for its missile strike, missed with 5 (!) and the last bounced off
In contrast the Retributor squad, boosted to be TL and Rending, cut down three terminators
The surviving interceptor squad took vengeance and wiped out one Sisters squad in shooting and assault, whilst the other squad lost several sisters to the Deadkinght as well as a couple of Sisters (but not the melta)
The Vindicare shot at the Exorcist but was foiled by the cover save
The Purgation squad moved up into a building but would have to now snap shot, fired at the Knight with 16 shots and missed.
the other Terminator Squad teleported in near the Knight and scattered away, fired at the Imolator but did nothing
Grandmaster split off from his sqaud and shot one Retributor but failed to make the charge
The surviving Terminator from his squad assaulted an Immolator and destroyed it.
The Retributor squad unleashed against the Gransmaster and took 2 wounds off him
The Exorcist fired again at the Grand Master, 6 missiles again but this time 5 hit and all wounded - killed him for bonus points for a named character
The Battered Sister squad alone on the left flank turned their metla on the lone terminator and killed him.
The Knight turned round, blasted the terminators with his melta and killed one, then assaulted them, killing 2 more for the loss of 2 hull points to the big hammer.
The still surviivng Dominon chucked a grenade at the dreadkinght but bounced off
The Cannoness and her Sisters moved into the building and shot all but one of the Purgations
The Vindicare dropped to the street and charged and killed the lone Dominon on the objective, the Dreadknight moved up to claim it
The Interceptor squad, jumped in and assaulted the restributor squad, loosing one to overwatch, killing two and wounding the Inquisitor, remained locked in combat
The lone Purgation shot the cannoness and took a wound off her
The Knight killed another Termnator and took no damage.
The Vindicare shot at the Exorcist and again was foiled by cover
The Exorcist and Immolators killed the Dreadknight
The Knight killed the last Terminator
The Cannoness and her squad killed the last Puragtion
The Interceptor squad killed the Retibutors and the Inquisitor and consolidated towards the Exorcist.
The Knight blasted the Interceptors out of existence
Multi-melta gun killed the Vindicare
Game
I must admit I played better than I usually do and rembered stuff in the excitement like krak grenades, target selection and not panicking!
I've been running a priest bomb list for a while now, based around Jaco, 3 priests, 20 bss (F/HF), 2 hammerhand inqusitoes with grenades , supported by 9bss (F/HF) with a priest, 5 bss with F/HF. 2 squads of Melta doms, a squad of flamer doms and 2 exorcists.
What other build concepts are available to us and what have you been running? I'm looking to shake things up a bit and try a new build, but remaining semi-competitive. Thoughts?
evildrcheese wrote: I've been running a priest bomb list for a while now, based around Jaco, 3 priests, 20 bss (F/HF), 2 hammerhand inqusitoes with grenades , supported by 9bss (F/HF) with a priest, 5 bss with F/HF. 2 squads of Melta doms, a squad of flamer doms and 2 exorcists.
What other build concepts are available to us and what have you been running? I'm looking to shake things up a bit and try a new build, but remaining semi-competitive. Thoughts?
D
The obvious one is to go MSU with 3 Dominons, 5 womans squads in more Immolators and 3 Exorcists plus St C and Seraphim - I would only rank myself as semi -competative in terms of ability but it can work well and would be a good contrast.
Not tried multiple large Seraphim Squads.
A Knight is fun
Guard or Astartes allies is fluffy and fun? Black Templars and Sisters seem to be a good combo (my Knight "piety" serves with both on Crusade)
BSSMSU sounds like a nice change. Guessing each BSS needs a priest, no need for maces though, bolt pistol is still worth it.
What about special weapons, more opportunity to mix in melta/melta into the BSSs as well as the F/HF.
Couldn't run 3 Doms and the Seraphim, but if I wanted Melta in my bss I'd need to drop one anyway.
Celestine is a must with Seraphim, but might need Jaco too if I take the full 6 troops.
I'm liking it, will try to build a few lists and see where we get.
Mr Morden, how did Mordrak and one Terminator squad teleport in? Mordrak has a special rule allowing him and his squad to arrive turn 1 without scatter, yet regular GK Termies cannot arrive by teleport until turn 2 at the earliest. If both of the GKT squads you mention were Troops (GK Termies are a Troop selection), and Mordrak was taken by himself, Morkrak is not an IC and cannot join with one of the GKT squads. If Mordrak did take a squad of Ghost Knights (which he can), your opponent was playing short one Troop choice, and therefore an illegal list.
Great battle reports. KelCJ, if your deep-striking Seraphim had scattered in the wrong direction, would they have been nearly as effect? DS is a high-risk high-reward thang. Mr. Morden, I'm startled by how little killing your Knight seemed to do -- Thoth perhaps that's partly because you didn't get the D melee weapon into play (and only the Dreadknight was a worthwhile target for it)?
To be honest, they probably wouldn't have been effective if they scattered. I knew it was a risk, and I wasn't even sure it was going to pay off, but at the same time my luck swinging them up field had rarely payed off in the past. The one time I can remember them doing really well was versus a decked out Nob Squad. Took over half their numbers despite 4+ invulns and FNP. Other than that they've either been shot to death before doing anything significant. So, I figured I might as well try something different and see how it went. Thankfully, it worked. I'll have to keep switching between the two delivery systems to see what will work best versus certain opponents (like I would not DS against Tau or Coteaz for example), but thus far, I'm fairly happy with the results.
Wow 74 pages, Ive read the 1st 12, and the last lol.
But I would LOVE to get into AS (SoB) I understand some of the basics and have a small amount of them so far (500points) so I dont want to spend money where I dont need (sense you know, AS cost lots of money) can you guys tell me a good 1750 TAC list that can work against Tau, Eldar, tau/dar and SM's
I know in a few weeks the rules will change, but I dont think it will change the top 2 books from what they do best.
Amishprn86 wrote: Wow 74 pages, Ive read the 1st 12, and the last lol.
But I would LOVE to get into AS (SoB) I understand some of the basics and have a small amount of them so far (500points) so I dont want to spend money where I dont need (sense you know, AS cost lots of money) can you guys tell me a good 1750 TAC list that can work against Tau, Eldar, tau/dar and SM's
I know in a few weeks the rules will change, but I dont think it will change the top 2 books from what they do best.
You did not list what you own so far, but if you do not have any, 2 Exorcists is a good buy and will make rather competitive with any list you might take =)
Conversions if you're unwilling to buy, but have the 2 Exos.
Amishprn86 wrote: Wow 74 pages, Ive read the 1st 12, and the last lol.
But I would LOVE to get into AS (SoB) I understand some of the basics and have a small amount of them so far (500points) so I dont want to spend money where I dont need (sense you know, AS cost lots of money) can you guys tell me a good 1750 TAC list that can work against Tau, Eldar, tau/dar and SM's
I know in a few weeks the rules will change, but I dont think it will change the top 2 books from what they do best.
You did not list what you own so far, but if you do not have any, 2 Exorcists is a good buy and will make rather competitive with any list you might take =)
Conversions if you're unwilling to buy, but have the 2 Exos.
Whirlwinds with Sister bling make good Exo conversions.
Amishprn86 wrote: But I would LOVE to get into AS (SoB) I understand some of the basics and have a small amount of them so far (500points) so I dont want to spend money where I dont need (sense you know, AS cost lots of money) can you guys tell me a good 1750 TAC list that can work against Tau, Eldar, tau/dar and SM's.
Things that have been good for quite some time:
Battle Sisters - You need probably 20-30 of these with a variety of special weapons (melta, flamer, heavy flamer, MM)
Dominions - About 20 of these. I would do 6xmelta, 6xflamer. That gets you two dedicated squads and one partial.
3 Exorcists - These have always been good.
Celestine and Jacobus
That's a core list that has been good for editions and editions. If you're interested, I'm selling a bunch, btw.
Sisters are good, but difficult to play.
They are also incredibly expensive to get into.
To start you're going to want:
At least 20 Sisters of Battle,
1-2 Exorcists,
A Cannoness -and/or- Celestine.
From there, you'll probably want:
At least 5 Seraphim (to go with Celestine),
Some Immolators / Rhinos,
Another Exorcist, -and/or- a squad of Retributors
More BSS,
More immolators
Maybe Dominions
Optional:
Repentia
Penitent Engines
And if you're really keen, grab (or convert) 1-2 Avenger Strike Fighters.
You have to really go all out with them, or not at all.
They're very Glass Cannon, hitting like a sledgehammer but crumpling like paper, so if you're at all cautious with them they'll be dead before they do anything.
Generally, you charge them full pelt at an enemy unit. They SHOULD survive long enough to play will-it-blend with their target. They generally won't survive past that.
And even, then, you're probably better using a more 'sensible' list.
The one exception to this is keeping a small unit hidden for Counter-Charge, but if they get shot it'll probably die.
Ovion wrote: The one exception to this is keeping a small unit hidden for Counter-Charge, but if they get shot it'll probably die.
I have played 10 repentia in a Rhino this way, and most opponents will ignore them. Then i disembark before they get too close, and charge the closest target from behind my Rhino-Bastion hideout. (Or any LoS blocker on the table)
The opponent then finds out how they love blending anything, and never approaches that building ever again.
I've had a Necron player being denied a Flank this way, and as i drove my Rhino up, cover to cover, he would simply retreat out of blending Fear =P
They handle AP2 targets better, high t maybe? Remember they swing at I1 and FNP does nothing vs S6+. DCAs swing at I6, which means they soften the enemy up first not the other way around.
I tend to spam melta guns, so not sure of the value of engaging enemy vehicles in melee.
Taste, what the rest of your army is packing, and who your opponent is. I've faced a depressing lack of vehicles. There is nothing sadder than 14 melta guns and no large point sink metal box to melt.
Bit of an odd question, does anyone know Sisters ranks in regards to the higher levels? I'm aware of Canoness, and Palatine, but any others known? I'm incorporating Grey Knights (using Sisters models) into my army to give it some CC punch (just matches my idea of Sororitas, beating the heretics to a paste in CC), and am renaming them. I'll be using either a Hereticus Inquisitor, Grand Master or Brother-Captain, some strike squads and Paladins. The whole 'Brotherhood of Pyskers" matches the whole belief idea, which would undoubtedly be stronger in the upper echelons, as do the increased stats (better equipment, stronger belief, 'upgrades'). Paladins fit Palatines (both stats and name wise), but I'm stuck on HQ and Troops. Ideas anyone?
Canoness is the highest "rank", however, it's what a Sister is Canoness of that determines her standing in the Sororitas hierarchy. A Canoness of a small order would be much in line with a company commander, while a Canoness of a larger order approaches Lord Commander status, and a Canoness leading a major order very well has equivalent power of a High Lord of Terra.
In terms of Grey Knights, a Canoness is a Grand Master, while a Palatine is a Sisterhood-Captain, and Paladins match well with Celestials. Justicars and Superiors are equivalent ranks/positions. Since Sisters were introduced back in 2nd, I've always hoped GW would give us Terminator equivalents called Archons, Dreadnought equivalents called Thrones, Knight equivalents called a Powers, and small Titans known as Principalities. When Karamazov was introduced in 3rd with his Throne of Judgment, it was like GW had read my mind! Too bad they dropped the ball with Sisters of Battle.
Now, when the WD mini-Dex came out, I was so pissed off with GW that I bought a Blood Angels codex and started running my Sister models as an Angelic Choir, with fast "Immolators", fast Rhinos, and Whirlwind "Exocists". Was working on Celestial Thrones (Furioso Dreads) and a Repentia cohort (Death Company). With the newest Digi-Dex, I just shelved my little Ladies for the time being.
That's reductio ad absurdum, there. 40K doesn't have great tactical balance or depiction of combined arms, but if you spam one unit type as your entire army, no matter how good the unit, you are still going to have problems. The Sisters' best "monoculture" build probably is Pretre's "all scouting Dominions," with a mix of flamer and melta squads & Immolators, and even there you'll be short any kind of anti-air and long-range firepower.
That's reductio ad absurdum, there. 40K doesn't have great tactical balance or depiction of combined arms, but if you spam one unit type as your entire army, no matter how good the unit, you are still going to have problems. The Sisters' best "monoculture" build probably is Pretre's "all scouting Dominions," with a mix of flamer and melta squads & Immolators, and even there you'll be short any kind of anti-air and long-range firepower.
Bad example, you can already bring as many priests as you can afford in an inquisition list.
18 Celestines - not too good imo, but so much fun...
25 Avengers - sounds just like the 10 Flyrant one
But here's me hoping that BattleForged "You can always capture objectives & Re-roll Warlord trait" is enough to actually win against the 10 Helldrake Armies.....
It finally tipped the balance of "should i really go full mechanized?" and recent purchases of Rhinos has got all of my BSSquads into shiny metal Bawwkses!
Used to run
2 x 10 BSS Flamer+HF, one with priest and canoness
5 BSS Flamer + HF
I'm curious to find out if there are changes to adamantium will. I'd hate to have to ally just for psykers defense. But from the current rumours, our number of dice during the psychic phase seems limited to 1D6.
Yeah i'm being extra hopeful that being a defined Anti-Psyker Army, we'd get some kind of bonus that is better that just rolling more 5+ than the enemy rolls 4+, with half the amount of Dice the enemy has.... when its not blessings....
But i'm sure we will indeed just have to ally across to get the extra pool filled...
Between that and filling Land raiders, it's almost like you will have to ally Inquisition
BlackTalos wrote: Yeah i'm being extra hopeful that being a defined Anti-Psyker Army, we'd get some kind of bonus that is better that just rolling more 5+ than the enemy rolls 4+, with half the amount of Dice the enemy has.... when its not blessings....
But i'm sure we will indeed just have to ally across to get the extra pool filled...
Between that and filling Land raiders, it's almost like you will have to ally Inquisition
BlackTalos wrote: Yeah i'm being extra hopeful that being a defined Anti-Psyker Army, we'd get some kind of bonus that is better that just rolling more 5+ than the enemy rolls 4+, with half the amount of Dice the enemy has.... when its not blessings....
But i'm sure we will indeed just have to ally across to get the extra pool filled...
Between that and filling Land raiders, it's almost like you will have to ally Inquisition
Its not an easy power to cast though, ANY double results in a peril if you are not a grey knight, even if you manage to get it (its still a roll)
And blessing can be denies too now.
BoomWolf wrote: Its not an easy power to cast though, ANY double results in a peril if you are not a grey knight, even if you manage to get it (its still a roll)
And blessing can be denies too now.
You're allying a grey knight to get a LRC anyways.
On the topic of allies what do people think of taking militarum tempestus as allies. What I think I wanna try is a squad of ten scions (2 hot shot volley guns) with a commissar lord loaded into a Valkyrie. essentially they would be my tactical objective group, drop them mid-battle to where they can be the most use and hopefully snag some victory points from a capture point or since the new rules will have those mission special objective things. What are your thoughts on this?
I'm also thinking of starting to take penitent enginges due to the changes in monsterous creatures smash and the vechile damage chart. Could you put one in a drop pod?
It was mainly due to the fact that they were open top which allowed people to easily kill them. Now though, due to the change in the vechile damage chart, it might be worth taking a squadron of them, or a single one in a drop pod if you can. Them getting better verse monsterous creatures is just a bonus.
Basically with the changes in 7th edition vechile damage chart, everything has been shifted by 1 space, meaning that normal weapons now need a 6 to exploded it and a 5 to immoblize it. I'm not saying take nothing but them but try taking one squad of them, if you have 2 hq and 3 troops you can even ally them in.
No, I get that. But they still get hulled out by practically anything. Getting blown up was not their problem before. Being too expensive for an AV11 HP3 open-topped walker was their problem. Along with their FOC slot and competing with one of our best units.
Well for unbound I was thinking of just taking drop pods by themselves as in they are purchase on their own and not as a dedicated transport. Guess I will need to see the rulebook on more rules for unbound.
I also heard that we can now use pistols in close combat, not sure if it is true but if it is, sisters might have just gotten a lot better in close combat.
pretre wrote: They are still easy to kill. OT is still +1, right? And they are still just low AV walkers. and they compete with a far superior choice.
Not in an unbound list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, I'm trying to think what the optimal squad for Celestine is now. We used to have only two options that moved 12" that she could join (and one was rough riders lol).
Now she can make a whole bunch of marine squads have hit and run at I7.
My gaming group is not really into allies that much so perhaps that's why I've never gotten into them big time. I guess inquisitors are fluffy. I would like Kamarov someday perhaps. He is rather characterful.
pretre wrote: Isn't it just a more expensive way of getting your troops there? Why not take more dominions or seraphim?
Part of it is because I've never used a flyer in any of my armies before and I'm intrigued by the uses of a transport flyer. Secondly because all their guns are AP3 (yes dominions with meltaguns are AP1 but only at 4 shots) with a squad of 10 dropping in that should be (not accounting for scatter) 20 rapid fire AP3 shots that will tear the MEQ armies I fight apart (or atleast the guys near an objective I want). the seraphim, while able to put out a lot of wounds with their weapons and hand flamers still allow those pesky 3+ saves on marines.
I'm definitely not arguing that this is going to be the best use of my points possible but it would add some tactical flexibility I think. Anyways I may be way off on this and it could just flat out suck and only look awesome in my head but I think may borrow my friends army for a bit and try it out. And if allies can be unbound then I may not even have to bother taking the commissar lord and just have 10 scions in a Valkyrie.
I hate to say this, but S3 AP3 is just not that impressive :(
2/3 rds chance to hit 1/3 rd chance to wound. = 2/9ths of a dead marine, assuming 0 cover. 20 rapid fire shots aren't even going to kill a 5 marine unit on average even with them not being in cover.
The volleyguns are much nicer, but you can't move and shoot them effectively. (Biomancy psyker could fix this.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Unrelated question: Now that all the imperial armies are going to be super best friends, any idea if the +1 attack from being within 18" of Logan Grimnar stacks with the +1 attack from our banner? (it feels like they'd be broken if they did...)
Most things like that are FAQ'd to be only for their army. SOB are one of the only armies that has things that go over. Our banner is just SOB, iirc though.
What you could do...
Superfriends unit with Jacobus for Hatred/Counter Attack/Warhymns. Shield Eternal SMCM with reroll saves/wounds? Logan Grimnar with the same? All sorts of fun.
So everyone else notice that heavy flamer + flamer sister squads are now almost pointless?
With the new rules you have to shoot different weapons one at a time... which means by the time youre done shooting the heavy flamer, there's a lot less enemies to be covered by the flamer.
This can also take the enemy outside of rapid fire range if you kill too many... removing several bolter shots.
I'm personally nabbing up cheap Space Marine HQs and scouts off eBay if I play 7th. If I play, I now have a toolbox of bonuses I can give my Sisters of Battle that weren't otherwise available previously.
If I don't play 7th, I've bought all cheap/used stuff and I have cool models to paint.
pretre wrote: Most things like that are FAQ'd to be only for their army. SOB are one of the only armies that has things that go over. Our banner is just SOB, iirc though.
What you could do...
Superfriends unit with Jacobus for Hatred/Counter Attack/Warhymns. Shield Eternal SMCM with reroll saves/wounds? Logan Grimnar with the same? All sorts of fun.
The Sacred Banner is 'All friendly units within 12"' isn't it? Pity you have to take a Sororitas Command Squad for it though... D:
So. Sisters blobs might want to bring along Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors wielding Psyocculums. The change to the way psychic powers work it seems like a lot of people will go all or nothing with psykers.
So I started experimenting with building lists of both flavors in 7e. I decided to start with Battle-forged, as that is going to be the most common in my meta. This is what I've come up with so far for 2000 points (also the most common value here):
I still have about 40 points of wiggle room on this list, though I am going back and forth between ways to add Rets or another Exorcist. Also, given the modest increase to vehicle durability and walker strength, Penetient Engines are looking really good too.
Mr Morden wrote: I thought the Heavy Flamer/Flamer combo was a bad one?
Out of interest why 6 Dominons and not 5?
no Power mace on the Priests?
I've ran Flamer/Heavy Flamer for awhile and it works for me. It is there to add to the ability to deal with hordes, and to give it some more teeth on overwatch. But I see what you mean on the how weapons fire. Might be worthwhile to cut one.
The 6 is mostly there as an ablative wound. Something that can eat an explosion before things like Superiors/Simulacrum/melta are being killed.
And the maces are generally cut from my list, as my squads usually need the re-roll calls more than I need another weapon. That said, there are more points available, and now that I have those points, I could add more Priests to units which is something I haven't usually done.
Since priests were way overpowered for points when they got Hymns off on 10, I'm not surprised. My question: what's up with Deny The Witch now? I don't understand the new rules and DTW+Shield of Faith is our fluffiest line of defense against psyker scum.
If your opponent is casting blessings, conjurations, etc. you get to deny on 6s only. If they are targeting you, your denial dice cancel on 5s.
We're essentially screwed. A pure Sisters list gets 1d6 denial dice unless we take allies. A psyker heavy army, like GK, Eldar, or Daemons, can get over 15 warp charges plus their 1d6.
A lot of people are going to "abhor the witch" in 7E if the preliminary battle reports are to be believed. And once again, the ladies are not equipped to handle them.
TheKbob wrote: Hey guys, they "fixed" the Leadership test rules. The Priest now has to test on his value specifically... The rule now states:
"If a unit has to take a leadership test and it includes models with different Ld values..."
They clarified it. Luckily, Litanies and St. Celestine to the rescue.
Yeah, the more I look at it, the more I feel like in this edition Celestine will actually stay with the rest of my army rather than charging up the field and trying to wipe out enemy scoring units.
I thought it was a 4+ for each success they got?
No, it's 6+, but if they target a unit that contains a model with Adamantium Will then it's 5+ to deny that power.
Actually, I'm wondering... If you attached a SM librarian to a Sisters squad (or anyone else with Adamantium Will), that makes it a 4+ right? Is it still 4+ for any unit within 12" because of the psychic hood?
Also, perils got changed. You now roll a d6. On a 5-6, you can make a leadership test to avoid damage. On a 1, the psyker gets to make a leadership test or die (then hit unit suffers some S6 AP1 hits).
I'm thinking low Ld psykers just got worse than they were before. Psykers that can swing a weapon well got better (some of the self only buff powers were buffed, the 6 on perils if you pass your test gives a pretty crazy buff too).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I re-read the psychic hoods bit. It says you can deny as if the psyker using it was in the unit being targetted, so I imagine a few guys with hoods positioned close to your various Sisters units would allow them to deny on a 3+ (if these were powerful psykers) or 4+. It doesn't matter what the composition of the psyker's unit is.
For a 4+ deny for anything targetting that unit specifically. It would still be a 6+ for enemy blessings and the like.
I'm not so sure about this.
I'd have to re-read it but I believe it says you have to nominate a psyker to deny the power if you want the bonus to deny the witch. So unless the psyker also has Adamantium will you won't get that bonus.
Maybe if the psyker is in the unit of sisters that get targeted then probably yeah but I need to double check it.
You first select a unit you wish to have deny that was targetted by the enemy and then the modifiers come if the unit has AW, a psyker or a higher mastery level. So I think I'm right on the 4+, but only if that unit is being targetted.
It makes me wonder if I might want to invest in another psyker to bulk out my defenses.
curran12 wrote: Psychic hoods are, in essence, a DtW bubble.
If a hood is within 12" of a targetted unit, the unit with the hood can be chosen as the deny unit.
Not quite. The rule in the 7e book says treat the psyker as if he is in the unit denying. This means one librarian can protect multiple sisters units, but a librarian attached to a SoB squad in the middle of some guard blobs is not going to be as effective. It also means that if the librarian is not in a sisters unit, he's actually worse at denying the witch then when he does it on behalf of a unit with AW.
Also a fresh consideration; Condemner Boltguns. Now while they are not the automatic Perils anymore, the general air is that there are going to be a glut of quantity over quality psykers with less protection.
It feels like once again, we got shafted. FMCs are harder for us to kill. Flyers are still a problem. The new hotness of psyker spam is still a major downside for us.
But hey, we can now ally with everyone from under the sun. I guess get some Black Templar or Grey Knights up in there.
TheKbob wrote: It feels like once again, we got shafted. FMCs are harder for us to kill. Flyers are still a problem. The new hotness of psyker spam is still a major downside for us.
But hey, we can now ally with everyone from under the sun. I guess get some Black Templar or Grey Knights up in there.
FMC are harder for everyone to kill, but on the flip side their close combat effectiveness got nerfed (they can't charge the turn they change to gliding, plus smash nerf). The biggest shaft is in the psychic phase, but then every army without psykers got hit too - Necrons, Tau, Black Templars etc. But like you said, at least Sisters are Battle Bros. with every Imperial Army, so just load up on Primaris Psykers or Inquisitors or Grey Knights etc. Tau and Necrons can't do that nearly as well.
Flyers bother me so much more than psykers. Psykers for all their new hotness still don't like getting a melta gun to the face. Flyers require special tools that are useless if the enemy has no flyers (so like in a tournament list that you can't change between fights).
Automatically Appended Next Post: So if I'm reading this right, your army can have multiple combined army detachments, so allied troops can use the full FOC.
So this means, you could take 3 dominion squads, 3 battle sister squads. Ally in Raven Guard take a biker captain or CM, a librarian, 2 tech priests or whatever those are (only other IC you can take I can think of) and bikes as troops. Stick the 3 ICs in your SoB troop squads, now you can scout everyone forward 12". I don't know if it's competitive, but it would be fun probably,
Automatically Appended Next Post: So more formally:
Sisters Detachment
St. Celestine 135
2 x Battle Squad w/ 2x melta in Rhino 2 X 115
3x Dominion squad w/ 4x melta in Immo 3 x 165
---
860pts
Raven Guard Detachment
Chapter Master on Bike w/ shield eternal, TH, and AA 250
Librarian on Bike ML2 110
2x Techmarine 2 x 50
2x Bike squad w/ 2x Grav-Gun 2 X 135
Command Squad on Bike w/ Apothecary and 4x grav gun 210
840 pts.
1700 total points.
Not super sure where the upgrades should go:
-You could pick up Uriah and get a fearless bubble.
-You could give each squad a priest
-You could instead give some or all squads a simulacrum
-You could add plasma pistols to sisters superior
-You could give the command squad power weapons too or shields
You have:
8 units, 4 of them troops
25 Sisters + Celestine
15 Marines + 1 CM, 1 Lib, 2 Techmarines
45 total models
If you add a priest to every squad, every squad is fearless or has ATSKNF. Every squad can scout 12". If you have priests in every sisters squad, no squad is a pushover in melee.
You also have 16 melta guns, 3 multi-meltas, 8 grav-guns for a total of 43 AP 1-2 shots all at BS4.
You have one melee beatstick, Celestine who will slice through their soft-underbelly (if they still bring small troop squads that would get in the way of your troop squads scoring), and a librarian who depending on power selection could be awesome in melee too.
Biggest weakness I see is relatively short range (compensated for by mobility and scouting) and no real answer to flyers other than snapfiring. Your biggest hope might be that you've crippled his land forces before his flyer comes out.
You could have an OK deathstar in Celestine + Lib + CM + Command Squad, but more than likely, you'll split some of those off. Celestine should stay with the Librarian and command squad if he needs anti-psyker defense. (Plus those guys are only 3+, no invuln. and need someone to tank for them.) If you roll on biomancy, you have a 1/3 chance roughly of getting the power that lets you give the unit EW which makes Celestine immensely better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, it occurs to me that the tech-marines could be upgraded with a servo-harness, which would give them two S8 AP 1 attacks (3 on the charge), with a priest with mace, those troop squads could have 7 AP 1-2 attacks in melee.
That army contains no death star, but there's not a single unit that is unthreatening.
curran12 wrote: Psychic hoods are, in essence, a DtW bubble.
If a hood is within 12" of a targetted unit, the unit with the hood can be chosen as the deny unit.
Not quite. The rule in the 7e book says treat the psyker as if he is in the unit denying. This means one librarian can protect multiple sisters units, but a librarian attached to a SoB squad in the middle of some guard blobs is not going to be as effective. It also means that if the librarian is not in a sisters unit, he's actually worse at denying the witch then when he does it on behalf of a unit with AW.
I read all of the past comments and this as "You now NEED a psyker"... Rather upset as i always play 100% Sisters, but now have to re-hash a list with a must-have Psyker... =(
Maybe something about this in FAQs, or as said before: Exorcists have 1 target for the 1st turn, the enemy psyker (and kinda stuck if your enemy is Daemons or GK...)
Yeah, I'm annoyed about the must-bring-psyker thing too. Yes, Inquisitors in the army have been around since Codex:Witch Hunters, but I want an all-Sisters option to be viable (hence my homebrewed 'Sister Chorister' substitute for Priests. Yes, you can have your psyker inquisitor painted up as a saint of some kind, but our thang is psychic defense, not offense.
You'd have to do some fairly fancy positioning to get the Flamer/Heavy Flamer to still work, somehow making sure the other flamer has enough range to models with those models not being too close to the rest of your squad.
Per the psychic chart in the cards inquisitors get all the powers...
Also I really do not understand why fliers are such a problem. Are we all using twin linked melta immolators? S8 twin linked is pretty decent against fliers.
curran12 wrote: You get 1d6 dice with which to stop psychic powers.
My goodness. A mechanic where you get 1d6 of something important that doesn't scale with army size. That sounds... strangely familiar.
Welp, I know what my next homebrew thing is gonna be about.
Now posted, my modest proposal to de-nerf our Deny The Witch: bringing back the Purity Seals & Praesidium Protectiva for 7th -- plus a Templar Cross for our best friends in the Astartes. I'd love y'all's comments on how well these would work.
sfshilo wrote: Per the psychic chart in the cards inquisitors get all the powers...
Also I really do not understand why fliers are such a problem. Are we all using twin linked melta immolators? S8 twin linked is pretty decent against fliers.
The flyer I have problems with is the storm raven. Even if I hit, the ceramite plating is a pain.
curran12 wrote: You get 1d6 dice with which to stop psychic powers.
My goodness. A mechanic where you get 1d6 of something important that doesn't scale with army size. That sounds... strangely familiar.
Welp, I know what my next homebrew thing is gonna be about.
Now posted, my modest proposal to de-nerf our Deny The Witch: bringing back the Purity Seals & Praesidium Protectiva for 7th -- plus a Templar Cross for our best friends in the Astartes. I'd love y'all's comments on how well these would work.
Frankly I think Adamantium Will should be an extra d6 in the deny phase rather than a +1 when targeted, but that may be just me.
sfshilo wrote: Per the psychic chart in the cards inquisitors get all the powers...
Also I really do not understand why fliers are such a problem. Are we all using twin linked melta immolators? S8 twin linked is pretty decent against fliers.
The flyer I have problems with is the storm raven. Even if I hit, the ceramite plating is a pain.
The flying land raider lol. Yeah that one is tough......
curran12 wrote: You get 1d6 dice with which to stop psychic powers.
My goodness. A mechanic where you get 1d6 of something important that doesn't scale with army size. That sounds... strangely familiar.
Welp, I know what my next homebrew thing is gonna be about.
Now posted, my modest proposal to de-nerf our Deny The Witch: bringing back the Purity Seals & Praesidium Protectiva for 7th -- plus a Templar Cross for our best friends in the Astartes. I'd love y'all's comments on how well these would work.
Frankly I think Adamantium Will should be an extra d6 in the deny phase rather than a +1 when targeted, but that may be just me.
That might work better than what they've got -- though it'd be hard to scale, too: Does one squad with AW give your entire army an extra 1d6 Warp Dice in your Psychic Phase? I'm just homebrewing wargear as a patch rather than trying to fix the underlying rule.
Adamantium Will giving extra D6 to the entire army would probably be slightly over the top. Then again, considering how hard it is to deny anyway, maybe it's not an issue.
Another option might be AW giving a 12" bubble of +1 Deny or something.
We're wandering off into Proposed Rules territory -- which is awesome, I'm all for proposing rules (e.g. my Deny The Nerf thread on this very subject) -- but let's do that in the appropriate forum. Anyone want to start a "fixing the fething psychic phase" thread?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: any ideas on how to counter the daemon army of summoning more daemons that summon more daemons for summoning? Checking over the hard counters thread, I'm not sure what we do. Heavy flamers are going to hurt a horde of moderate-toughness models, especially when new units Deep Strike in and are clustered; and I suppose Dominions can go Herald-hunting....
Seraphim with Flamers will do what they are already good at. Allied IG with artillery (basilisks are my favorite) can blast the summoners, and/or the things that are summoned. A sister blob with an attached Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor and a psyocculum and null rod scouted up with the Liber Heresius controls the center, and has BS 10 against pretty much everything that the daemons throw at you. For added fun, grab as many servo skulls as possible to shut down all enemy scouting and infiltration.
With the changes to shooting are Flamer doms are worth it? Before you could get extra wounds out of range from firing the superiors bolter/pistol, now you're gonna need to really close to maximise their effectiveness.
However, with Orks round the corner and the new template rules for open topped vehicles they may have some great utility there (and vs DE if you can get them close enough to the skimmers)....
Just a question, how are people playing combo-flamers in a unit with flamers? Do you fire them as flamers, or a separate weapon?
Anyway, the new allocation means that the sisters do need to get closer, but if they were firing before they were still in danger. Yes, you miss a few wounds, but it shouldn't be overly many.
Still, a squad of Dominions with flamers can get close, flame, and then charge the survivors. They should be damn nasty, even if no more then before, and flamers being a little counter productive with them. Maybe HF retributions?
Unfortunately per RAW combi flamers have to go into a separate shooting pool as they don't sport the same name. This makes them almost useless now if you have any other flamers in the unit.
I've never been fond of combi melta's myself so I might start fielding some combi plasmas or the condemnor boltguns now for some added psyker defense depending on how my meta turns out.
I was contemplating switching out my HFs from my Battle Sisters Squads into a HF Retributor squad maybe keep them cheap with 3 HF and 3 ablative wounds in either an immo or rhino.
Good question regarding the combi. Need to see the name for the profile of the second weapons, if it's 'flamer' I imagine it'll shoot with other flamers, if it's 'combi-flamer' it would be resolved with other 'combi-flamers'.
Farseer Anath'lan wrote:Just a question, how are people playing combo-flamers in a unit with flamers? Do you fire them as flamers, or a separate weapon?
I hadn't thought of this yet. I'll have to dig in the book, but if they are separate, I'll leave them out.
evildrcheese wrote:I was contemplating switching out my HFs from my Battle Sisters Squads into a HF Retributor squad maybe keep them cheap with 3 HF and 3 ablative wounds in either an immo or rhino.
Still too expensive for what you get. HB Rets or Exos are better and more effective. :(
Mr Morden wrote: Rcently played against a Knight and Guard allies(obviously traitors)
the Canonness and her 5 sisters took off 4 HP with their meltas and a krak grenade
Any "Explodes" results in there? I know they're a lot harder to get on the new Vehicle Damage Table. Or was that all good, old-fashioned "I hit you once, I take off one hull point, rinse & repeat"?
Mr Morden wrote: Rcently played against a Knight and Guard allies(obviously traitors)
the Canonness and her 5 sisters took off 4 HP with their meltas and a krak grenade
Any "Explodes" results in there? I know they're a lot harder to get on the new Vehicle Damage Table. Or was that all good, old-fashioned "I hit you once, I take off one hull point, rinse & repeat"?
yep -= an explode it I would likely have killed it with one squad The Krak grenade was fun - killed a wave serpent the same way - Cannoness threw one down the barrel of a damaged one near the end of a game and blew the damned thing to hell (where they belong)
lol Awesome. Hopefully it didn't take them out in the explosion.
nope it did not die - charged my own Knight and blew up killing my Knight.............
Yeah I was annoyed as mine was undamaged at that point...............I had lured his in and hped to destroy it with my Exorcist and Sisters - nearly but not quite.
Voldrak wrote: Unfortunately per RAW combi flamers have to go into a separate shooting pool as they don't sport the same name. This makes them almost useless now if you have any other flamers in the unit.
I've never been fond of combi melta's myself so I might start fielding some combi plasmas or the condemnor boltguns now for some added psyker defense depending on how my meta turns out.
Negatory.
Pg176 of the BRB lists the Main Weapon and profile of a Combi-Weapon as a "Boltgun" and the Secondary Weapon and profile as either a "Flamer", "Grav-gun", "Meltagun" or "Plasma gun". A model equipped with Combi-Melta, firing the Secondary Weapon, fires at the same time as any other Meltagun because all the weapons are named "Meltagun". What you can't do is fire one models Combi-Melta Secondary (the Meltagun) at the same time as another models Combi-Melta Primary (the Boltgun) - they are different named weapons, and therefore fire separately.
The same thing applies for a Combi-Flamer. However Template weapons have an additional ruling that says all Template weapons fire at the same time (Pg173, part of the Template USR) - determine how many hits for each Template, add them up, then roll To Wound.
So a squad armed with a Flamer, Heavy Flamer and Combi-Flamer would fire all 3 Templates at once, working out number of hits for each Template, then roll To Wound as normal (i.e. separate pools of Wounds with different AP or special rules). A model with a Combi-Melta would fire her Main Weapon (the Boltgun) at the same time as the rest of the Unit fires their Boltguns, and she would fire her Secondary Weapon (the Meltagun) at the same time as any other model in the Unit fire a Meltagun.
It does say all template weapons fire at the same time...I'm assuming it that's not what's intended and may get FAQ'd to 'all template weapons of the same name' or something similar...
I'll probably ask the guys at my local club to call it at this point.
"Realistically" speaking I think that all templates should fire at the same time whether it's from a flamer or heavy flamer. I have a hard time imagining my sisters facing down a squad of bloodthirsty orcs and the sororita with the heavy flamer turns to the sororita with the flamer and says "You go ahead and shoot first, I'll fire my heavy flamer after you and burn off what's left".
), dropped another hit with the melta from my own knight but did not quite kill it..............
) I just don't know where to start with them. I was thinking that a full squad (maybe two) with Celestine would be good to deep strike in the later game to help "clean up," but, frankly, it's been so long since I've played that I really don't know what I'm doing. XP (And, yes, I do know the 6th ed. rules... it hasn't been *that* long.. >_> ) I supposed it's fair to say that I'm rather out-of-touch with the current state of the game/meta, in general... :/
