Deadshot wrote: Ok, so the unit comes with Bolters and BP standard, power armour, Frag and Krak. The WG Pack Leader gets a CCW instead of a bolter.
Special rules are Counterattack, ATSKNF and Acute Senses.
5 models per unit, can take 5 additional ones. 14ppm
There's a 2ppm upgrade I can't make out that must be the CCW upgrade.
1 per squad may take a power weapon at 15ppm or Power fist at 25ppm
One GH can replace his Bolt Pistol for a plasma pistol 15ppm
For every 5 models, one may take a Special weapon.
One GH may become a WG Pack Leader 15pts
1 GH per detachment may take what I can only assume is a Wolf Banner/Standard. Can't make it out properly.
The WGPL may take weapons from the Melee Weapons and Ranged Weapons lists and may take Melta Bombs.
The WGPL may exchange his BP, CCW, PA and Grenades for TDA, Stormbolter and Power Weapon.
A WGT Pack Leader may take only from the Terminator Weapons.
May take a Rhino, Razorback or Drop Pod. No Stomrfang Assault Craft.
Dude, you are the man. Thank you.
Now maybe I am hallucinating, but I thought the WG upgrade was only 10 points. Unless it is different cost to upgrade a Long Fangs squad versus a GH squad?
Wow we actually get shotguns!!!!! That is massively suprising actually. I was always confused at why the space wolves of all chapters would love a gun that is meant for capping people at super short range before assaulting them.
Doing Harald and Wolf Scouts next. Psychic Powers and wargear will have to wait till morning but will finish the units tonight. I will quote everything into one post, so if someone could make sure a mod or the OP puts it in the OP I'd be appreciative.
Harald Deathwolf.
190pts base
Wargear
Power Armour
Frost Axe
Bolt Pistol
Grenades
Storm Shield
Thunderwolf Mount. Apparently TW are now Wargear.
Special Rules
Counterattack
Outflank
Independent Character
Acute Senses
ATSKNF
Space Wolf units with the Unit Type Beasts or Cavalry can use his Ld value while within 12" of him.
Saga of the Wolf
Can take up to 2 Fenrisian Wolves for 8ppm
Wolf Scouts
Wargear
Scout Armour
Bolter
Bolt Pistol
Grenades
Power Armour for WGPL
Special Rules
Counterattack
Acute Senses
Infiltrate
Scouts
Move Through Cover
ATSKNF
5-10 Scouts per unit, 14ppm
Can take CCW for 2ppm
One model may become WGPL for 10ppm
WGPL may take Ranged and Melee Weapons and Melta Bombs
Any Scout can swap their Bolter for a Shotgun or CCW for free, or a Sniper Rifle for 1ppm
Up to 2 Scouts may swap their Bolter for a Plasma Pistol or Power Weapon for 15ppm per weapon.
One Scout may swap his Bolter for a Heavy or Special Weapon.
Noooooooo! Do you know what this means, they have axed the Wolf Tail Talisman, and Wolf Tooth Necklace. DAMN YOU GW,DAMN YOU![b]
Grey elder wrote: Is it just me or does the all the units have no man size limit? All I see is a must take 5 GH minimum, and can add from there....
Its just you. See my translations. The lines clearly state that only 5 GH may be added.
Blood Claws
5-15 Blood Claws, 12ppm
Wargear
Power Armour
BP CCW Grenades
Special Rules
ATSKNF Acute Senses
Counterattack
Rage
Options
One may swap BP for Plasma Pistol 15pts
One may swap their CCW for a Power Weapon (15pts) or Power Fist (25pts)
One Blood Claw may take a Special Weapon and if the squad numbers 15 models, another Blood Claw may take one too.
One Blood Claw upgrade to WGPL for 10pts
May take Melee and Ranged weapons and Melta Bombs (5pts)
May swap all his gear for TDA, Power Weapon and Stormbolter, and then may take only from the Terminator Weapons
Squad may take Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Stormfang Assault Craft
Skyclaws
5-10 Skyclaws, 15ppm
Wargear
Power Armour
BP CCW Grenades
Jump Pack
Special Rules
ATSKNF Acute Senses
Counterattack
Rage (Skyclaws Only)
Options
2 Skyclaws may swap their Bolt Pistols for
Flamer 5pts
Meltagun 10pts
Plasma Gun or Pistol 15pts
One Skyclaw may swap his CCW for a
Power Weapon 15pts
Power Fist 25pts
One may upgrade to a Wolf Guard Sky Leader
May take from Ranged and Melee Weapons
May take Melta Bombs for 5pts
No option to remove Jump Packs or get a transport of any kind.
Now maybe I am hallucinating, but I thought the WG upgrade was only 10 points. Unless it is different cost to upgrade a Long Fangs squad versus a GH squad?
You are right. Will fix that. Its dark in that area. My bad!
Wolf Guard 90pts base
4 WG, 1 WGPL
Wargear
Wargear
Power Armour
BP CCW Grenades
Special Rules
ATSKNF Acute Senses
Counterattack
Options
+5 Wolf Guard 18ppm
Any model may swap their Bolter for a CCW for free (mix and match allowed)
Any model may take from Ranged and Melee weapons (mix and match allowed)
Any model may have Melta Bombs for 5ppm
The unit may have Jump Packs for 3ppm or Bikes for 7ppm!!!
May take a Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Stormfang Assault Craft OR any of the Land Raiders
NO OPTION FOR TERMINATOR ARMOUR. POSSIBLE IT IS NOW A SEPERATE UNIT
Special Rules
Counterattack
Acute Senses
Split Fire
ATSKNF
Options
+4 Long Fangs 15ppm
Ancient may swap his pistol or Chainsword for a Power Weapon or Plasma Pistol (15pts) or Power Fist 25pts
Ancient may have Melta Bombs 5pts
4 Long Fangs can have Heavy Weapons and Ancient can have a Special weapon.
One Long Fang can be upgraded to a WGPL for 10pts (only use for the awkward 5th Long Fang I think) for 10pts
May take Melee and Ranged weapons and Melta Bombs (5pts)
May swap all his gear for TDA, Power Weapon and Stormbolter, and then may take only from the Terminator Weapons
Squad may take Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Stormfang Assault Craft
Deadshot wrote: Long Fangs 30pts base
4 Long Fangs can have Heavy Weapons and Ancient can have a Special weapon.
One Long Fang can be upgraded to a WGPL for 10pts (only use for the awkward 5th Long Fang I think) for 10pts
May swap all his gear for TDA, Power Weapon and Stormbolter, and then may take only from the Terminator Weapons
Weird, but ok...I wonder if that will include Terminator Heavy Weapon if you have 5+ Models.
Squad may take Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Stormfang Assault Craft
pretre wrote: Can probably assume points for heavies went up.
Yeah, all this info is amazing, but now I am wondering how much plasma and meltaguns cost, how much combi-weapons cost and how much all the heavy weapons cost. Lol. Never satisfied I guess.
But seriously a lot of info out tonight, a lot to chew on.
CCW are 2ppm
1 per squad may take a power weapon at 15ppm or Power fist at 25ppm
One GH can replace his Bolt Pistol for a plasma pistol 15ppm
For every 5 models, one may take a Special weapon.
One GH may become a WG Pack Leader 15pts
1 GH per detachment may take what I can only assume is a Wolf Banner/Standard. Can't make it out properly.
The WGPL may take weapons from the Melee Weapons and Ranged Weapons lists and may take Melta Bombs.
The WGPL may exchange his BP, CCW, PA and Grenades for TDA, Stormbolter and Power Weapon.
A WGT Pack Leader may take only from the Terminator Weapons 15pts
May take a Rhino, Razorback or Drop Pod or Stormwolf Assault Craft
Deadshot wrote:Dreadnought 95pts
Wargear
MM Power Fist with Built in Storm Bolter
Searchlight
Can take from Dreadnought weapons list.
Can swap PF for
Wolf Claw (retain SB) 5pts
Missile Launcher 10pts
Twin Linked Autocannon 15pts
Can swap SB for Heavy Flamer 10pts
Take Extra Armour 10pts
Smoke Launchers 5pts
Can upgrade to Venerable Status 25pts
One Venerable Dreadnought (must be Venerable, one per army) can swap their MM and PF+SB for the Axe of Fenris and Blizzard Shield. 25pts
May take a Drop Pod
Special Rules
Venerable
Adds 1 to Steal the Initiative
5+ Invulnerable Save
options
Can swap Assault Cannon for
Plasma or Helfrost Cannon for free
TL Lascannon for 5pts.
Relic: "True Claw?"
Str 10
AP 2
Master Crafted, Shred
Drop Pod option.
Deadshot wrote:
Harald Deathwolf.
190pts base
Wargear
Power Armour
Frost Axe
Bolt Pistol
Grenades
Storm Shield
Thunderwolf Mount. Apparently TW are now Wargear.
Special Rules
Counterattack
Outflank
Independent Character
Acute Senses
ATSKNF
Space Wolf units with the Unit Type Beasts or Cavalry can use his Ld value while within 12" of him.
Saga of the Wolf
Can take up to 2 Fenrisian Wolves for 8ppm
Relic: Mantle of King Ice Trolls (Literal translation).
More logical translation= Mantle of the King of the Ice Trolls
Makes Harald Deathwolf immune to the effects of Pyromancy Psychic Powers and Flamer Weapons as detailed in Warhammer 40, 000: The Rules
Wolf Scouts
Wargear
Scout Armour
Bolter
Bolt Pistol
Grenades
Power Armour for WGPL
Special Rules
Counterattack
Acute Senses
Infiltrate
Scouts
Move Through Cover
ATSKNF
5-10 Scouts per unit, 14ppm
Can take Camo Cloaks for 2ppm
One model may become WGPL for 10ppm
WGPL may take Ranged and Melee Weapons and Melta Bombs
Any Scout can swap their Bolter for a Shotgun or CCW for free, or a Sniper Rifle for 1ppm
Up to 2 Scouts may swap their Bolter for a Plasma Pistol or Power Weapon for 15ppm per weapon.
One Scout may swap his Bolter for a Heavy or Special Weapon.
Deadshot wrote:
Blood Claws
5-15 Blood Claws, 12ppm
Wargear
Power Armour
BP CCW Grenades
Special Rules
ATSKNF Acute Senses
Counterattack
Rage
Options
One may swap BP for Plasma Pistol 15pts
One may swap their CCW for a Power Weapon (15pts) or Power Fist (25pts)
One Blood Claw may take a Special Weapon and if the squad numbers 15 models, another Blood Claw may take one too.
One Blood Claw upgrade to WGPL for 10pts
May take Melee and Ranged weapons and Melta Bombs (5pts)
May swap all his gear for TDA, Power Weapon and Stormbolter, and then may take only from the Terminator Weapons for 15pts
Squad may take Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Stormwolf Assault Craft
Skyclaws
5-10 Skyclaws, 15ppm
Wargear
Power Armour
BP CCW Grenades
Jump Pack
Special Rules
ATSKNF Acute Senses
Counterattack
Rage (Skyclaws Only)
Options
2 Skyclaws may swap their Bolt Pistols for
Flamer 5pts
Meltagun 10pts
Plasma Gun or Pistol 15pts
One Skyclaw may swap his CCW for a
Power Weapon 15pts
Power Fist 25pts
One may upgrade to a Wolf Guard Sky Leader
May take from Ranged and Melee Weapons
May take Melta Bombs for 5pts
No option to remove Jump Packs or get a transport of any kind.
Deadshot wrote:
Wolf Guard 90pts base
4 WG, 1 WGPL
Wargear
Wargear
Power Armour
BP CCW Grenades
Special Rules
ATSKNF Acute Senses
Counterattack
Options
+5 Wolf Guard 18ppm
Any model may swap their Bolter for a CCW for free (mix and match allowed)
Any model may take from Ranged and Melee weapons (mix and match allowed)
Any model may have Melta Bombs for 5ppm
The unit may have Jump Packs for 3ppm or Bikes for 7ppm!!!
May take a Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Stormwolf Assault Craft OR any of the Land Raiders
NO OPTION FOR TERMINATOR ARMOUR. POSSIBLE IT IS NOW A SEPERATE UNIT
Deadshot wrote:Long Fangs 30pts base
1 Long Fang
1 Long Fang Ancient (sergeant)
Wargear
Bolt Pistol
CCW Grenades
Power Armour
Special Rules
Counterattack
Acute Senses
Split Fire
ATSKNF
Options
+4 Long Fangs 15ppm
Ancient may swap his pistol or Chainsword for a Power Weapon or Plasma Pistol (15pts) or Power Fist 25pts
Ancient may have Melta Bombs 5pts
Any Long Fang can have Heavy Weapons and Ancient can have a Special weapon.
One Long Fang can be upgraded to a WGPL for 10pts (only use for the awkward 5th Long Fang I think) for 10pts
May take Melee and Ranged weapons and Melta Bombs (5pts)
May swap all his gear for TDA, Power Weapon and Stormbolter, and then may take only from the Terminator Weapons 15pts
Squad may take Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Stormwolf Assault Craft
Anpu42 wrote: The only thing I am finding disappointing is there in no mention of MotW.
What's that again? 1d6 + 2 attacks? I saw something like that on the special rules picture in the lower left corner. Now no entry so far seems to have it so it may be limited to I don't know what, lone wolfs or something. Or my piss poor spanish abilities have led me astray.
Anpu42 wrote: The only thing I am finding disappointing is there in no mention of MotW.
What's that again? 1d6 + 2 attacks? I saw something like that on the special rules picture in the lower left corner. Now no entry so far seems to have it so it may be limited to I don't know what, lone wolfs or something. Or my piss poor spanish abilities have led me astray.
It was 1d6+1 Attacks only modified by Assaulting.
S: User
AP: -
Rending
Anpu42 wrote: The only thing I am finding disappointing is there in no mention of MotW.
What's that again? 1d6 + 2 attacks? I saw something like that on the special rules picture in the lower left corner. Now no entry so far seems to have it so it may be limited to I don't know what, lone wolfs or something. Or my piss poor spanish abilities have led me astray.
I think that was the roll to see which units outflank. It is 1D6 with a +2 f they are troops. Yeah, missing MotW means I have some converted marines I wont be able to use.
My mistake there. TDA on Pack Leaders is 10pts in all cases. Ferrum Sanguinius, would you mind slotting this post in just below the translations? Would save you editing it all.
Anpu42 wrote: The only thing I am finding disappointing is there in no mention of MotW.
What's that again? 1d6 + 2 attacks? I saw something like that on the special rules picture in the lower left corner. Now no entry so far seems to have it so it may be limited to I don't know what, lone wolfs or something. Or my piss poor spanish abilities have led me astray.
I think that was the roll to see which units outflank. It is 1D6 with a +2 f they are troops. Yeah, missing MotW means I have some converted marines I wont be able to use.
I'm gonna translate the rules and powers and wargear in the morning. Its like 2am here so I'm going to bed now and can't do it.
And for the record, I supposedly failed Spanish in school with a D. Can still translate that Codex and I promise you its accurate. Spanish is probably the easiest language to learn IMO and I've had a go at French, German, Japanese and English. (Yes, English is my mother tongue. Still harder than spanish).
Anpu42 wrote: The only thing I am finding disappointing is there in no mention of MotW.
What's that again? 1d6 + 2 attacks? I saw something like that on the special rules picture in the lower left corner. Now no entry so far seems to have it so it may be limited to I don't know what, lone wolfs or something. Or my piss poor spanish abilities have led me astray.
I think that was the roll to see which units outflank. It is 1D6 with a +2 f they are troops. Yeah, missing MotW means I have some converted marines I wont be able to use.
10 Grey Hunters
>6x Grey Hunters with Bolt Gun, Bolt Pistol, CCW >2x Plasma Gun [Assuming the price is the same as Space Marines], Bolt Pistol, CCW.
>1x Plasma Pistol, Bolt Gun, CCW >1 Power Fist, Bolt Gun, CCW That will come out to about 228 points, 263 with the Drop Pod
I left out the Wolf Standard
I may add a Wolf Guard Pack Leader, but I am not sure right now. If I do, it will most likely be with a Power Weapon or Wolf Claw an possibly a Plasma Pistol or Combi-Plasma
6. Jaws of the World Wolf (Warp charge 2) Jaws of the World Wolf is a Focused Witchfire power which targets a single non-vehicle unit within 18" or less.
A model hit by Jaws of the World Wolf must make an Initiative check. Monstrous Creatures pass this check automatically.
If the model passes this check, nothing happens, but if it fails, it is removed from the game.
As a non-wolf, I'm pleased to see a bit of nerf in there for JotWW. Sorry, wolfies. (Not too sorry, though ).
In compensation, I got curious and wrote up the rest, not quite as wordy/literal:
Primaris Power: Living Lightning (WC 1) Witchfire 18", S7, AP-, Assault 3, Shock
Shock: For each 6 obtained To Hit, target suffers 2 additional hits, unless the roll was for Snap Shots.
1. Stormcaller (WC 1) Blessing. Psyker and his unit gain Obscured [presumably Shrouded?]
2. Tempest's Wrath (WC 1) Malediction, targets an enemy unit within 18".
All models in the unit -1 BS, and treat all terrain as Dangerous, even open terrain.
Also, unless Immobilized, all models in the target unit with the type Jump, Jet, Jetbike, FMC, Flyer, or Skimmer, must take an immediate Dangerous Terrain check.
2. Tempest's Wrath (WC 1) Malediction, targets an enemy unit within 18".
All models in the unit -1 BS, and treat all terrain as Dangerous, even open terrain.
Also, unless Immobilized, all models in the target unit with the type Jump, Jet, Jetbike, FMC, Flyer, or Skimmer, must take an immediate Dangerous Terrain check.
I am a bit fuzzy, but how do FMC and flyers take dangerous terrain tests? What happens if a flier fails?
Given the number of units getting Flyers as dedicated transports, I have to think that Blood Angels players might be seeing a preview of things to come.
Or not, GW might just screw 'em.
As a Wolves player and Non-Wolves Player I have to say the nerf to Jaws did not surprise me in the least. My riptides are glad not to have to face instant removal from play, on the other hand, I'm going to like opening up the ground beneath my friend's Necron Lords and Overlords - Mind Shackle Scarabs go down the hole . . .
I remember an earlier report that Rune Priests might default to Mastry Level 2, combine that with Rune Weapons apparently having Adamantium Will and that is a reasonably strong counter Psyke capability. It also probably relates to why half the SW special Psychic powers are WC 2.
Any word about the Rune Guard, if they exist and what are they?
Given the number of units getting Flyers as dedicated transports, I have to think that Blood Angels players might be seeing a preview of things to come.
Or not, GW might just screw 'em.
As a Wolves player and Non-Wolves Player I have to say the nerf to Jaws did not surprise me in the least. My riptides are glad not to have to face instant removal from play, on the other hand, I'm going to like opening up the ground beneath my friend's Necron Lords and Overlords - Mind Shackle Scarabs go down the hole . . .
I remember an earlier report that Rune Priests might default to Mastry Level 2, combine that with Rune Weapons apparently having Adamantium Will and that is a reasonably strong counter Psyke capability. It also probably relates to why half the SW special Psychic powers are WC 2.
Any word about the Rune Guard, if they exist and what are they?
If they did we would have heard about them by now.
I think this might be the end for me wanting to use Rune Priests, might bring one in for counters but I just don't like the sound of them.
Large blast on Murderous Hurricane? Does that mean it might scatter? I never even really cared about the damage it did, I just liked making everything difficult and dangerous for one of my opponent's units and watching in terror as he tried to move it.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: I think this might be the end for me wanting to use Rune Priests, might bring one in for counters but I just don't like the sound of them.
Large blast on Murderous Hurricane? Does that mean it might scatter? I never even really cared about the damage it did, I just liked making everything difficult and dangerous for one of my opponent's units and watching in terror as he tried to move it.
I'm with you. The only powers I ever took on my Rune Priests was Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane, and Tempests Wraith. All others were situational at best. I found the three I mentioned to be pretty universally usable.
It does make me wonder what Njal is going to look like. I'm really curious what is going to happen to my favorite psycher in the game.
Wolf scouts info in original post is wrong, bolter can be changed for CCW for free and the item which they have as the CCW for 2pts per model is some sort of camouflage, I think.
macas wrote: Anyone Know if Logan will be sold separate or will he only be available with the sled
Only heard that no he isnt. But take comfort in the divided attitude to the chariot. I for one already have a grimnar model which is satisfying but I love the chariot so I will buy the kit and put the Grimnar model on ebay or similar. And I think im not the only one
Especially if its possible to get the chariot for generic wolf lords just buy the kit and ebay away the chariot yourself, dont listen to dakka, the chariot is actually not as hated in real life
Everything seems pretty reasonable, I have to say. GH are fine with the changes, Blood Claws look great, Scouts took a hit but not a huge one, and Fangs are still fine.
I'm a bit miffed at the psychic powers, looks like my rune priests will now be used to boost the potential of long fangs packs with divination powers. Oh well
Also what do these changes mean for Bran Redmaw? I don;'t think he has be FAQ'd recently and he is my wolf lord. He has numerous bits of wargear and rules that do not look like they still exist.
Paradigm wrote: Everything seems pretty reasonable, I have to say. GH are fine with the changes, Blood Claws look great, Scouts took a hit but not a huge one, and Fangs are still fine.
scouts are actually fine, we now have BS4 camocloaked snipers for 17ppm thats sweet!
2. Tempest's Wrath (WC 1)
Malediction, targets an enemy unit within 18".
All models in the unit -1 BS, and treat all terrain as Dangerous, even open terrain.
Also, unless Immobilized, all models in the target unit with the type Jump, Jet, Jetbike, FMC, Flyer, or Skimmer, must take an immediate Dangerous Terrain check.
Oh man... that's going to cause havok with my tau. I often play farsight enclaves with lots of crisis suits ;3
Paradigm wrote: Everything seems pretty reasonable, I have to say. GH are fine with the changes, Blood Claws look great, Scouts took a hit but not a huge one, and Fangs are still fine.
scouts are actually fine, we now have BS4 camocloaked snipers for 17ppm thats sweet!
I suppose so if you use them as snipers. I always used mine for backfield mela/plasma insertion, which is now harder to do with the loss of BEL. That said, the cost drop sort of makes up for it.
Paradigm wrote: Everything seems pretty reasonable, I have to say. GH are fine with the changes, Blood Claws look great, Scouts took a hit but not a huge one, and Fangs are still fine.
scouts are actually fine, we now have BS4 camocloaked snipers for 17ppm thats sweet!
I suppose so if you use them as snipers. I always used mine for backfield mela/plasma insertion, which is now harder to do with the loss of BEL. That said, the cost drop sort of makes up for it.
Im sorry but that type of use was dead once you couldnt assault from reserve
Paradigm wrote: Everything seems pretty reasonable, I have to say. GH are fine with the changes, Blood Claws look great, Scouts took a hit but not a huge one, and Fangs are still fine.
scouts are actually fine, we now have BS4 camocloaked snipers for 17ppm thats sweet!
I suppose so if you use them as snipers. I always used mine for backfield mela/plasma insertion, which is now harder to do with the loss of BEL. That said, the cost drop sort of makes up for it.
Im sorry but that type of use was dead once you couldnt assault from reserve
Not really, I've played them numerous times like this, blew up a basilisk and then kept Kharn locked in combat for two turns once before they died (which meant that Kharn never made it into combat with anything else). Granted sometimes it didn't work, but numerous times I took out large tanks etc as their rear armour was exposed to my scouts.
I haven't bothered with SW scouts since 6th rules were printed for just that reason. That took them from a Bad Ass assault unit that really messed with the opponents backfield, to a disposable one shot anti tank weapon. Now they will be snipers.... how well does that fit the SW theme.....
Correct me if I'm wrong but that wording sounds like it's still potentially five heavies in a unit.
You can have up to 5 Long Fangs plus the Ancient, but only 4 of them can take heavy weapons. You can however upgrade the 5th to a WGSL with Terminator Armor, unknown at this point if he can take a heavy weapon.
Paradigm wrote: Everything seems pretty reasonable, I have to say. GH are fine with the changes, Blood Claws look great, Scouts took a hit but not a huge one, and Fangs are still fine.
scouts are actually fine, we now have BS4 camocloaked snipers for 17ppm thats sweet!
I suppose so if you use them as snipers. I always used mine for backfield mela/plasma insertion, which is now harder to do with the loss of BEL. That said, the cost drop sort of makes up for it.
Im sorry but that type of use was dead once you couldnt assault from reserve
Not really, I've played them numerous times like this, blew up a basilisk and then kept Kharn locked in combat for two turns once before they died (which meant that Kharn never made it into combat with anything else). Granted sometimes it didn't work, but numerous times I took out large tanks etc as their rear armour was exposed to my scouts.
Yeah, pretty much this. Coming on and shooting back armour, if they're killed that's fire not going to the rest of the army, if not then they can charge something with grenades.
Paradigm wrote: Everything seems pretty reasonable, I have to say. GH are fine with the changes, Blood Claws look great, Scouts took a hit but not a huge one, and Fangs are still fine.
scouts are actually fine, we now have BS4 camocloaked snipers for 17ppm thats sweet!
I suppose so if you use them as snipers. I always used mine for backfield mela/plasma insertion, which is now harder to do with the loss of BEL. That said, the cost drop sort of makes up for it.
Im sorry but that type of use was dead once you couldnt assault from reserve
Not really, I've played them numerous times like this, blew up a basilisk and then kept Kharn locked in combat for two turns once before they died (which meant that Kharn never made it into combat with anything else). Granted sometimes it didn't work, but numerous times I took out large tanks etc as their rear armour was exposed to my scouts.
Yeah, pretty much this. Coming on and shooting back armour, if they're killed that's fire not going to the rest of the army, if not then they can charge something with grenades.
There's no such thing as a dead tactic.
I rather take 5 hunters in drop pod, first turn pop the biggest tank. Instead of waiting for scouts to arrive and they might not even reach the goal
Justyn wrote: What special character? And what would it do for them?
HQ's & Wolf Guard Battle Leaders.
They did not have "Behind Enemy Lines" You could still Outflank even if you had Saga of the Hunter, but not behind your enemy. So I always ended up running them without support, now that does not matter.
Hatemonger wrote: 6. Jaws of the World Wolf (Warp charge 2) Jaws of the World Wolf is a Focused Witchfire power which targets a single non-vehicle unit within 18" or less.
A model hit by Jaws of the World Wolf must make an Initiative check. Monstrous Creatures pass this check automatically.
If the model passes this check, nothing happens, but if it fails, it is removed from the game.
Gotta say, the design on this one is so bad it's nearly comical.
Anyone know how many points it'd take to turn the fifth useless Long Fang into a TDAWG with CML? Worth the cost to have a six missile strong unit with a 2+ on the front?
I want someone to give me the page with all those weapons they say some units can take. For example Wolf guard can mix and match from some list, give me the list please
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: Anyone know how many points it'd take to turn the fifth useless Long Fang into a TDAWG with CML? Worth the cost to have a six missile strong unit with a 2+ on the front?
+10 for the WGPL, +15pts for the TDA upgrade. I don't believe however that CML will be availible seeing as regular SM Terminator Weapon list doesn't include it. The TDA squad simply lists the options.
If it is availible, it would be 30pts making a total of 55pts. And you can only get up to 4 Heavy Weapons in a Long Fang pack.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SlyasR wrote: I want someone to give me the page with all those weapons they say some units can take. For example Wolf guard can mix and match from some list, give me the list please
Those pages arn't up yet. I am going to translate the remainder of the leaked pictures a little later on.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: Anyone know how many points it'd take to turn the fifth useless Long Fang into a TDAWG with CML? Worth the cost to have a six missile strong unit with a 2+ on the front?
+10 for the WGPL, +15pts for the TDA upgrade. I don't believe however that CML will be availible seeing as regular SM Terminator Weapon list doesn't include it. The TDA squad simply lists the options.
If it is availible, it would be 30pts making a total of 55pts. And you can only get up to 4 Heavy Weapons in a Long Fang pack.
.
Ummm, where do you see that. I cannot for the life of me figure it out. I don't speak spanish, but google translates that sentence as "any long fang can choose an object from the list of heavy weapons". How is any equal only four? The only word for "four" I see in that text is in fact on how many Long Fangs can you add.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: Anyone know how many points it'd take to turn the fifth useless Long Fang into a TDAWG with CML? Worth the cost to have a six missile strong unit with a 2+ on the front?
+10 for the WGPL, +15pts for the TDA upgrade. I don't believe however that CML will be availible seeing as regular SM Terminator Weapon list doesn't include it. The TDA squad simply lists the options.
If it is availible, it would be 30pts making a total of 55pts. And you can only get up to 4 Heavy Weapons in a Long Fang pack.
.
Ummm, where do you see that. I cannot for the life of me figure it out. I don't speak spanish, but google translates that sentence as "any long fang can choose an object from the list of heavy weapons". How is any equal only four? The only word for "four" I see in that text is in fact on how many Long Fangs can you add.
I'm just going by what everyone else is saying but I thought it sounded really strange that you could have five Long Fangs plus the Ancient but only four heavy weapons.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: Anyone know how many points it'd take to turn the fifth useless Long Fang into a TDAWG with CML? Worth the cost to have a six missile strong unit with a 2+ on the front?
+10 for the WGPL, +15pts for the TDA upgrade. I don't believe however that CML will be availible seeing as regular SM Terminator Weapon list doesn't include it. The TDA squad simply lists the options.
If it is availible, it would be 30pts making a total of 55pts. And you can only get up to 4 Heavy Weapons in a Long Fang pack.
.
Ummm, where do you see that. I cannot for the life of me figure it out. I don't speak spanish, but google translates that sentence as "any long fang can choose an object from the list of heavy weapons". How is any equal only four? The only word for "four" I see in that text is in fact on how many Long Fangs can you add.
I am sorry, you are correct. I was mistakenly translating Cualquiere as 4 when it should have been any. Thanks for pointing that out.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: Anyone know how many points it'd take to turn the fifth useless Long Fang into a TDAWG with CML? Worth the cost to have a six missile strong unit with a 2+ on the front?
+10 for the WGPL, +15pts for the TDA upgrade. I don't believe however that CML will be availible seeing as regular SM Terminator Weapon list doesn't include it. The TDA squad simply lists the options.
If it is availible, it would be 30pts making a total of 55pts. And you can only get up to 4 Heavy Weapons in a Long Fang pack.
.
Ummm, where do you see that. I cannot for the life of me figure it out. I don't speak spanish, but google translates that sentence as "any long fang can choose an object from the list of heavy weapons". How is any equal only four? The only word for "four" I see in that text is in fact on how many Long Fangs can you add.
I am sorry, you are correct. I was mistakenly translating Cualquiere as 4 when it should have been any. Thanks for pointing that out.
Yay, I won't have to regroup my long fang packs then
Paradigm wrote: Everything seems pretty reasonable, I have to say. GH are fine with the changes, Blood Claws look great, Scouts took a hit but not a huge one, and Fangs are still fine.
scouts are actually fine, we now have BS4 camocloaked snipers for 17ppm thats sweet!
I suppose so if you use them as snipers. I always used mine for backfield mela/plasma insertion, which is now harder to do with the loss of BEL. That said, the cost drop sort of makes up for it.
Im sorry but that type of use was dead once you couldnt assault from reserve
Not really, I've played them numerous times like this, blew up a basilisk and then kept Kharn locked in combat for two turns once before they died (which meant that Kharn never made it into combat with anything else). Granted sometimes it didn't work, but numerous times I took out large tanks etc as their rear armour was exposed to my scouts.
Yeah, pretty much this. Coming on and shooting back armour, if they're killed that's fire not going to the rest of the army, if not then they can charge something with grenades.
There's no such thing as a dead tactic.
I rather take 5 hunters in drop pod, first turn pop the biggest tank. Instead of waiting for scouts to arrive and they might not even reach the goal
Alas in 6th scouts lost there awesomeness of coming in shooting and assaulting those back-boarding tanks. In 6 and 6.5 drop pods are way more effective at killing schtick. its a shame really scouts were fun to use and a great psycho trick making the enemy fear his back board.
Paradigm wrote: Everything seems pretty reasonable, I have to say. GH are fine with the changes, Blood Claws look great, Scouts took a hit but not a huge one, and Fangs are still fine.
scouts are actually fine, we now have BS4 camocloaked snipers for 17ppm thats sweet!
I suppose so if you use them as snipers. I always used mine for backfield mela/plasma insertion, which is now harder to do with the loss of BEL. That said, the cost drop sort of makes up for it.
Im sorry but that type of use was dead once you couldnt assault from reserve
Not really, I've played them numerous times like this, blew up a basilisk and then kept Kharn locked in combat for two turns once before they died (which meant that Kharn never made it into combat with anything else). Granted sometimes it didn't work, but numerous times I took out large tanks etc as their rear armour was exposed to my scouts.
Yeah, pretty much this. Coming on and shooting back armour, if they're killed that's fire not going to the rest of the army, if not then they can charge something with grenades.
There's no such thing as a dead tactic.
I rather take 5 hunters in drop pod, first turn pop the biggest tank. Instead of waiting for scouts to arrive and they might not even reach the goal
Alas in 6th scouts lost there awesomeness of coming in shooting and assaulting those back-boarding tanks. In 6 and 6.5 drop pods are way more effective at killing schtick. its a shame really scouts were fun to use and a great psycho trick making the enemy fear his back board.
I am sad about the loss, but I still think they will do good. They can still bring a lot of firepower into your opponents flank.
Wargear
Terminator Armour
Stormbolter
Belt of Russ
Saga of Majesty
Special Rules
Eternal Warrior
Independent Character
Acute Senses
Counterattack
Stubborn
ATSKNF
May take Stormrider at +70pts
Relics
Axe of Morkai
Grimnar may elect to use the Axe of Morkai one handed or Two Handed. He may freely choose which attack is going to be (ie, can choose 3x 1 handed and 1x 2 handed). This decision must be made before any blows are struck.
While riding Stormrider, Logan may move 12" in the movement phase. Stormrider itself has a 4+ Invulnerable Save. All Penetrating Hits against Stormrider count instead as Glancing Hits. Grimnar loses its special rule Deep Strike (which is given by his Terminator armor) can not join another unit or be joined by Independent Characters. While riding Stormrider, Logan may make an additional 4 Attacks at Str 5, AP- with the "Steely?" Special Rule. "This may provide an additional motion during combat to Join?" I'm thinking it means he has additional charge range but none is specified.
Psychic Powers
Primaris, Warp Charge 1
Witchfire with the following profile
Rg 18"
Str 7
AP-
Assault 3, Shock
Shock: Rolls of 6 to Hit automatically cause 2 more hits, unless Snap Firing.
1- Name Unknown, Warp Charge 1
This is a Blessing that targets the caster and his unit. For the remainder of the turn, the Psyker and his unit are Obscured.
2- Wrath of the Storm, Warp Charge 1
This is a Malediction that targets a single enemy unit within 18". For the remainder of the turn, that unit has -1 BS, and treats all terrain as Dangerous Terrain, even open Terrain. If the unit is a Jump, Jet, Jetbike, FMC, Flyer or Skimmer unit, or Immobilised, it must immediately take a Dangerous Terrain Test.
3- Thunderclap, Warp Charge 1
Nova with profile
Rg 12"
Str 3
AP-
Assault 2D6
5- Fury of the Wolf Spirits, Warp Charge 2
Witchfire
When manifesting this power the Psyker can shoot with the 2 profiles shown below, one at a time in any order. Both must target the same unit.
Range 18"
str 6 --- 5
AP - ---- 6
Assault 4----- Assault 2, Precision Shots
Jaws of the World Wolf, Warp Charge 2
Focussed Witchfire, Range 18"
Model hit takes Initiative Test, if it fails remoce it from play. Monstrous Creatures automatically pass the test and vehicles cannot be targetted.
Sagas/Warlord Traits
1- of the Warrior Born
Reroll failex hits in CC.
2- of the Wolf
The Warlord and any unit of Beasts or Cavalry he joins from Faction:Space Wolves has Stubborn. Also, any Beasts or Cavalry units from Faction Space Wolves within 12" of the Warlord gains Furious Charge until the end of the assault Phase
3- of the Beastslayer
Grants the Warlord Monster Hunter
4- of the Bear
Grants the Warlord Feel No Pain (6+)
5- of the Hunter
Grants the Warlord Scout and Outflank
6- of Majesty
Any unit of Space Wolves within 12" may reroll Morale and Pinning Tests.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also important to note
HARALD DEATHWOLF IS IMMUNE TO PYROMANCY AND FLAMER WEAPONS!!!
Already known for sure that the warlord traits are randomly selected or can you choose one? I really hope you can choose as otherwise its a bit strange fluff wise xD
Kjellk wrote: Already known for sure that the warlord traits are randomly selected or can you choose one? I really hope you can choose as otherwise its a bit strange fluff wise xD
I hope SW can choose, though I wish all armies could choose, random warlord traits is a blight on 40k. I'm sure there's some sick puppies out there who like it, but those people should be removed from society and placed in white padded rooms
Kjellk wrote: Already known for sure that the warlord traits are randomly selected or can you choose one? I really hope you can choose as otherwise its a bit strange fluff wise xD
I hope SW can choose, though I wish all armies could choose, random warlord traits is a blight on 40k. I'm sure there's some sick puppies out there who like it, but those people should be removed from society and placed in white padded rooms
I don't mind them myself.
However most of the time our group just ask the other if it is just ok to pick.
Nope. Look at the Great Company formation. It has a rule called Jarl de Russ, which simply grants a re-roll. The special 6 HQFOC has the same rule (at least the name is the same but I would not expect it to be different). Unfortunately. :(
Paradigm wrote: Everything seems pretty reasonable, I have to say. GH are fine with the changes, Blood Claws look great, Scouts took a hit but not a huge one, and Fangs are still fine.
scouts are actually fine, we now have BS4 camocloaked snipers for 17ppm thats sweet!
I guess that's a fair trade for the previously Suicide Squad 5 man basic Meltagun squad with Behind Enemy Lines, I'll take it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Justyn wrote: I haven't bothered with SW scouts since 6th rules were printed for just that reason. That took them from a Bad Ass assault unit that really messed with the opponents backfield, to a disposable one shot anti tank weapon. Now they will be snipers.... how well does that fit the SW theme.....
Correct me if I'm wrong but that wording sounds like it's still potentially five heavies in a unit.
You can have up to 5 Long Fangs plus the Ancient, but only 4 of them can take heavy weapons. You can however upgrade the 5th to a WGSL with Terminator Armor, unknown at this point if he can take a heavy weapon.
That's certainly an odd choice if you can't, I'm sure we all used to plonk a SS with a Cyclone Missile Launcher in front... would be an odd upgrade if not.
Special Rules in the summary Section. The pattern goes from top left to bottom right.
Murderlust
Murderfang is immune to Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned but still loses a Hull Point.
Drop Pod Assault
As normal
Cunning of the Wolf (Great Company Formation only)
During deployment, roll a D6 for each unit in the formation and add +2 if they are troops or have an IC from the Formation attached to the unit. On a roll of 6+, the unit gains the Outflank rule. Additionally, at the start of any turn except the first, you may choose which units to keep in deployment instead of rolling. These units enter ongoing reserves and come in automatically next turn.
No translation availible- "Aullido" of War?
Ragnar Blackmane and his unit have Furious Charge
No translation availibe- "Aullido" of the Wolf? (Great Company only)
The Wolf Lord from the formation and his unit have Furious Charge and "Miedo?" I think its Fleet.
Mindlock
As normal
"Demented Bravado"
Ragnar Blackmane must issue and accept challenges where possible.
Grimnar's Champion
Arjac Rockfist must issue and accept challenges where possible, and may reroll to hit rolls in a challenge.
The Last Laugh
If Lukas the Trickster is slain in a challenge, each player must roll a dice. If the Space Wolf player rolls high, Lukas' opponent is also removed as a casualty.
So they automatically come in from reserves next turn if they outflank? That's not bad at all actually.
I'm hating the Last Laugh of Lukas though, half the time you would launch him into deathstar formations and take out all the ones in base to base. Now it only happens in challenges?
That's certainly an odd choice if you can't, I'm sure we all used to plonk a SS with a Cyclone Missile Launcher in front... would be an odd upgrade if not.
Well it was easy enough in the current codex because you buy your wolf guard in a squad and split them up, so you enforce the limit of 1 heavy weapon per 5 wolf guard when you buy them and before you divide them up. Now, the rumour goes, the wolf guard squad leaders are upgrades for other squads, so it's more awkward to have a rule to the tune of "If 4 other squads have wolf guard leaders in terminator armour that don't have heavy weapons, this one can have a heavy weapon". So, I'm willing to believe that one.
Deadshot wrote: The Last Laugh
If Lukas the Trickster is slain in a challenge, each player must roll a dice. If the Space Wolf player rolls high, Lukas' opponent is also removed as a casualty.
FFS. Last time I checked Lukas couldn't challenge a Titan... and whilst under the old Codex this is clearly an, if not the, unbalanced rule, when have you ever seen it used competitively? Pointless fun/fluff destroying nerf, that should see sales of the model die out completely. From "all models in base contact" to "a challenged opponent"... way to piss on some Fenrisian Chips GW.
That's certainly an odd choice if you can't, I'm sure we all used to plonk a SS with a Cyclone Missile Launcher in front... would be an odd upgrade if not.
Well it was easy enough in the current codex because you buy your wolf guard in a squad and split them up, so you enforce the limit of 1 heavy weapon per 5 wolf guard when you buy them and before you divide them up. Now, the rumour goes, the wolf guard squad leaders are upgrades for other squads, so it's more awkward to have a rule to the tune of "If 4 other squads have wolf guard leaders in terminator armour that don't have heavy weapons, this one can have a heavy weapon". So, I'm willing to believe that one.
The simple way:
Under Wolf Guard Terminators list 1 in 5 can take a Terminator Heavy Weapon
Wargear section to put a Terminator Heavy Weapons Listings. Add a Note that A Long Fang Terminator can also take a Terminator Heavy Weapon.
That's certainly an odd choice if you can't, I'm sure we all used to plonk a SS with a Cyclone Missile Launcher in front... would be an odd upgrade if not.
Well it was easy enough in the current codex because you buy your wolf guard in a squad and split them up, so you enforce the limit of 1 heavy weapon per 5 wolf guard when you buy them and before you divide them up. Now, the rumour goes, the wolf guard squad leaders are upgrades for other squads, so it's more awkward to have a rule to the tune of "If 4 other squads have wolf guard leaders in terminator armour that don't have heavy weapons, this one can have a heavy weapon". So, I'm willing to believe that one.
So do I, but doesn't make it any less fun painful/fun
Deadshot is doing a simply stellar job translating all of this for us, so maybe we will know more when he hits the Ranged Weapons pages... slim to none chance of there being a bespoke rule for "Wolf Guard that join Long Fangs may additionally choose from the Heavy Weapons list" If not I'd probably opt for a ADL in lieu of a SSTDAWG... although what's the damage on a SSPAWG now?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anpu42 wrote: The simple way:
Under Wolf Guard Terminators list 1 in 5 can take a Terminator Heavy Weapon
Wargear section to put a Terminator Heavy Weapons Listings. Add a Note that A Long Fang Terminator can also take a Terminator Heavy Weapon.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: So they automatically come in from reserves next turn if they outflank? That's not bad at all actually.
I'm hating the Last Laugh of Lukas though, half the time you would launch him into deathstar formations and take out all the ones in base to base. Now it only happens in challenges?
The two rules are seperated by a period so they are mutually exclusive but have overlap. You can get the roll of 6 and allow the unit to outflank, but even if you don't you can still elect to keep them in reserve and not roll this turn, and they can automatically arrive next turn. You just can't do it turn 1 to make it automatic turn 2 arrival.
And yes, exactly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Later I will condense everything into one massive post, with all information including edits.
Based on google image results, I think "Aullido" means howl, or howling wolf, in some way. It would fit in with how the rules work and the rules in the past.
Seems Ragnar has lost a bit of his sting, swapping +d3 attacks for the squad when charging to 'must issue and accept challenges'. A shame, as Wolf Guard with 4-6 attacks a piece (assuming pistol and ccw) was something awesome to behold.
I wonder if he kept War Howl.
Edit: looks like he did, and if its permanent FC on his unit rather than once per game in 12", I can live with that.
They are still the best Marine Scouts out there. With the addition of Shotguns and the ability to take a Heavy Weapon I think gave them more flexibility. I think they may also fill the roll of Tactical Marines as objective holders.
Behind an ADL with Cammo Cloaks with Sniper Rifles and a Las-Cannon or Plasma Cannon.
Even if they are restricted to Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers that should give some good medium range firepower.
Regarding scouts- being the best of the worst, doesnt mean much. If you see SM scouts it is because they are OS and a required troop choice. Our scouts take up an elite slot and we dont get Sniper weapons for free like SMs do. We lost the best thing about the scouts in OBEL and still during 6th/7th no one took them anyways. So even in casual play these guys will stay on the shelf.
Nice. Now let's hope he says something that hasn't already been leaked (because he hasn't yet). Edit whoops, I think his comment on TWC weapons is new info...
So it seems the Harald Deathwolf can't be hit by fire weapons? And he gets outflank? Hmmmm... I wonder how much my friends will hate my new outflanking TWC
So I guess I may ask this here as its as good a place as any. The guy in the other thread who seems to have and I hope really does have the codex said plasma guns were 15 points each in the new codex for GHs?
Is that how much they are in the SM codex? Because holy crap going from 2 plasma guns for 10 points (because the second was free) to 30 points is quite a big change.
Yeah, 5/10/15 for flamer/melta/plasma has been the standard for Specials in Imperial books since 5th, although it was sometimes worked into the bvase cost in BA and the old SM book.
Super Newb wrote: So I guess I may ask this here as its as good a place as any. The guy in the other thread who seems to have and I hope really does have the codex said plasma guns were 15 points each in the new codex for GHs?
Is that how much they are in the SM codex? Because holy crap going from 2 plasma guns for 10 points (because the second was free) to 30 points is quite a big change.
Yes they are both 15 points.
However I have been fooling around with my Grey Hunters and this is what they look like all kitted out, without a WGPL.
10 Grey Hunters
>6x Grey Hunters with Bolt Gun, Bolt Pistol, CCW >2x Plasma Gun, Bolt Pistol, CCW.
>1x Plasma Pistol, Bolt Gun, CCW >1 Power Fist, Bolt Gun, CCW That will come out to about 228 points, 263 with the Drop Pod
Must admit, really disappointed with the release. Seems like they watered Spacewolves down and nerfed most units:
1) GH, more expensive
2) Sagas gone
3) Psychic abilities suck
4) Long fangs more expensive, no more TDAWG with CML 5)No mix and match with PAWG and TDAWG 6) HQ cheaper, but lost there quite abit of their flavour, no EW anymore....
7) No wolf tooth talisman 3++ and so on any more
I see only 2 positive things :
1) reduced points on assault heavy troops, which we all know don't do well at all in this edition...
2) Wolf priests seem to have been buffed with FNP 6+
I feel we've been reduced to a SM chapter, that could aswell just been put in C:SM, except we have a few special units more....
Not letting generic Wolf lords ride a chariot will severely cripple the Logan-kit. Im not going to complain though, this is absolute 100% proof GW isnt all about money
However I have been fooling around with my Grey Hunters and this is what they look like all kitted out, without a WGPL.
10 Grey Hunters
>6x Grey Hunters with Bolt Gun, Bolt Pistol, CCW >2x Plasma Gun, Bolt Pistol, CCW.
>1x Plasma Pistol, Bolt Gun, CCW >1 Power Fist, Bolt Gun, CCW That will come out to about 228 points, 263 with the Drop Pod
So for a drop pod list, assuming a WG combi-weapon is 10 points, I am thinking upgrading to a WG and giving him a combi-plasma is better for an 'alpha strike' than a plasma pistol GH. According to the Spanish codex leak, it is 10 points to upgrade a GH to a WG, and I am assuming 10 more points for the combi-weapon. That's 14+10+10 which is 34. A GH with a plasma pistol is 29. Worth 5 more points for one more plasma gun shot on the drop (and one extra CC attack from the WG if they get into CC)?
I feel we've been reduced to a SM chapter, that could aswell just been put in C:SM, except we have a few special units more....
And:
Army wide counter attack & acute senses
Increased chance at outflanking units (roll before the game)
More characters base
Solo Suicide PA/Terminator models with FnP & EW CM on a Chariot
TWC New Flyer that's arguably better than a non-GK Stormraven
Uniquely equipable termies that in general cost only 3pts more than their counter-parts (makes sense with counter-attack)
Priests that give FnP 6+ to units and Prefer Enemy
Super Cheap Assault Marines & Power Armored Assault Scouts
Bike Riding Vets (something that doesn't exist outside of command squads in the SM book)
Assault Pack Vets
New Weapons
Lots of Variant Dreads
Honestly in a lot of ways it's still the best counts-as book out there for variant chapters. Most of the SM stuff but with the ability to build an army the way you like.
Hulksmash wrote: Honestly in a lot of ways it's still the best counts-as book out there for variant chapters. Most of the SM stuff but with the ability to build an army the way you like.
I'll probably be using it for my Khorne themed army
I feel we've been reduced to a SM chapter, that could aswell just been put in C:SM, except we have a few special units more....
And:
Army wide counter attack & acute senses
Increased chance at outflanking units (roll before the game)
More characters base
Solo Suicide PA/Terminator models with FnP & EW CM on a Chariot
TWC New Flyer that's arguably better than a non-GK Stormraven
Uniquely equipable termies that in general cost only 3pts more than their counter-parts (makes sense with counter-attack)
Priests that give FnP 6+ to units and Prefer Enemy
Super Cheap Assault Marines & Power Armored Assault Scouts
Bike Riding Vets (something that doesn't exist outside of command squads in the SM book)
Assault Pack Vets
New Weapons
Lots of Variant Dreads
But yeah, totaly just a normal SM army....
On paper maybe but:
1) Flyer, yeah it's cool, but as a GK player our flyers are expensive and are easily taken down by army with dedicated AA, which is easy for some armies: It just takes a flyer to come on one round later and with a high chance ~250 Points + all units in there. So there not really a good Transport IMHO.
2) Looking at CA and Acute senses.... has acute sense ever had any impact? Barely.
3) Cheaper assault units with WS3 and BS3.
4) New weapons? I only see Frost sword/axes, which aren't much better than counterparts (except axe if it gives S2+) or Cannon which kinda feels like "Can do everything, but nothing exceptional".
Also, of course my comment was a bit over the top, But that was just to underline the fact, that there a few things, I feel they just pushed a bit too far.
Kas40k wrote: Must admit, really disappointed with the release. Seems like they watered Spacewolves down and nerfed most units:
1) GH, more expensive
2) Sagas gone
3) Psychic abilities suck
4) Long fangs more expensive, no more TDAWG with CML 5)No mix and match with PAWG and TDAWG 6) HQ cheaper, but lost there quite abit of their flavour, no EW anymore....
7) No wolf tooth talisman 3++ and so on any more
I see only 2 positive things :
1) reduced points on assault heavy troops, which we all know don't do well at all in this edition...
2) Wolf priests seem to have been buffed with FNP 6+
I feel we've been reduced to a SM chapter, that could aswell just been put in C:SM, except we have a few special units more....
We are nowhere near close to C: SM.
Space Wolves can not be played the same as C: SM, we still have most of our Strengths and Weakness. It looks like we are still a "Shooty Army with Superior Counter-Attack Ability.
What have we truly lost:
1] EW on Wolf Lords.
2] Attacking from the Rear Scouts
3] Cyclone Terminators with Long Fangs
4] MotW SPAM
5] Wolf Guard Shenanigans
What have we gained:
1] Cheaper Units overall.
2] Grey Hunter ability to take a WGPL in a Rhino/Drop along with your Second Special Weapon [Third if you count the Combi-Weapon], Retaining the Hidden Power Fist/Power Axe and still have a power Weapon available.
3] Scouts that can pack a Multi-Melta
4] Probably one of the best pair of Aircraft in the game, one you can load a full Blood Claw in with an Assault Ramp.
5] All Power Weapon/Power Fist/Thunder Hammer Thunder Wolf Packs
I feel we've been reduced to a SM chapter, that could aswell just been put in C:SM, except we have a few special units more....
And:
Army wide counter attack & acute senses Increased chance at outflanking units (roll before the game) More characters base Solo Suicide PA/Terminator models with FnP & EW CM on a Chariot TWC New Flyer that's arguably better than a non-GK Stormraven Uniquely equipable termies that in general cost only 3pts more than their counter-parts (makes sense with counter-attack) Priests that give FnP 6+ to units and Prefer Enemy Super Cheap Assault Marines & Power Armored Assault Scouts Bike Riding Vets (something that doesn't exist outside of command squads in the SM book) Assault Pack Vets New Weapons Lots of Variant Dreads
But yeah, totaly just a normal SM army....
On paper maybe but: 1) Flyer, yeah it's cool, but as a GK player our flyers are expensive and are easily taken down by army with dedicated AA, which is easy for some armies: It just takes a flyer to come on one round later and with a high chance ~250 Points + all units in there. So there not really a good Transport IMHO. 2) Looking at CA and Acute senses.... has acute sense ever had any impact? Barely. 3) Cheaper assault units with WS3 and BS3. 4) New weapons? I only see Frost sword/axes, which aren't much better than counterparts (except axe if it gives S2+) or Cannon which kinda feels like "Can do everything, but nothing exceptional".
Also, of course my comment was a bit over the top, But that was just to underline the fact, that there a few things, I feel they just pushed a bit too far.
So out of 14 things, which isn't everything, you object to 4 of them. And let's look at those 4:
As individuals Flyers have issues. In double or triplicate they are rock stars. Lord knows that actual anti-air is rare (really only done well by Wave Serpent Eldar and Necrons) and they are upgunned enough to be a nasty proposition to other flyers/FMC's/or tanks (which this edition pushes).
CA is worth 3pts on a terminator. CA is free on regular marines. It's our chapter tactic (which the good ones don't effect termies anyway so hence the cost bump). As for Acute Sense it didn't have any impact because there was almost zero outflanking. Now any troop unit can outflank on a roll of a 6+/4+ with a character and bring their dedicated transport with them. Acute Sense is much more likely to see use now.
WS3 BS3 don't matter in unit designed for CC. Most WS4 is going to be hitting on 4+'s the majority of the time in CC. So there isn't an effect from WS3 except against DP's and super characters. BS3 isn't good but it's offset by rage and getting those bonus attacks in CC.
Weapons different from SM include - All Frost Melee Weapons, 2 Ranged Frost Weapons, Wolf Claws, Dread Axe/Shield all while keeping the same base weapons as SM
Melee without EW is awful. Losing bear lord is awful. Ragnar being derpy is awful. There's a lot more bad than good. It continues the trend of bland, vanilla releases and selling you chocolate sauce and sprinkles later to get your flavor back.
Every way I used to run my Wolves is done. No more Logan bombs, no more superior 210-220 GH squads, no more bear lords. No more buckets of Ragnar attacks. Long Fangs appear to be stunted molars now. At least Lone Wolves are still good, but Arjac losing EW too? Geez...
Ugly flyers, childish new models, and killing old strategies and armies. Good show, GW. And assault blows, stop trying to up sell raged out bloodclaws in a flyer. If it dies, you remove all the claws and are left with a bunch of blood. Never seen this idea work in all of 6E, unless I'm missing something mind blowing in 7E.
Super Newb wrote: So I guess I may ask this here as its as good a place as any. The guy in the other thread who seems to have and I hope really does have the codex said plasma guns were 15 points each in the new codex for GHs?
Is that how much they are in the SM codex? Because holy crap going from 2 plasma guns for 10 points (because the second was free) to 30 points is quite a big change.
Boo hoo, that's indeed what everyone else pays for them. Of course vanilla tacticals cannot even have two plasmas.
Every way I used to run my Wolves is done. No more Logan bombs, no more superior 210-220 GH squads
They are still in that range
10 Grey Hunters
>6x Grey Hunters with Bolt Gun, Bolt Pistol, CCW >2x Plasma Gun, Bolt Pistol, CCW.
>1x Plasma Pistol, Bolt Gun, CCW >1 Power Fist, Bolt Gun, CCW That will come out to about 228 points, 263 with the Drop Pod
I drop the Plasma Pistol and the Power Fist to an Power Axe that makes them 203, I drop the CCW and they go to 185, 220 with a pod.
Yeah, I think it's a bit early to sound the deathknell of SW guys. Take a minute and a deep breath and wait for the book. Once we've had a chance to make some lists, I think people will be happy.
Also, obligatory, this happens everytime we get a new edition. Do you know how many power fists I had to remove and remodel after 3rd edition ended?
Deadshot wrote: The Last Laugh
If Lukas the Trickster is slain in a challenge, each player must roll a dice. If the Space Wolf player rolls high, Lukas' opponent is also removed as a casualty.
FFS. Last time I checked Lukas couldn't challenge a Titan... and whilst under the old Codex this is clearly an, if not the, unbalanced rule, when have you ever seen it used competitively? Pointless fun/fluff destroying nerf, that should see sales of the model die out completely. From "all models in base contact" to "a challenged opponent"... way to piss on some Fenrisian Chips GW.
So it is less fluff destroying to say a titan steps on a marine and is exploded...as opposed to cinematic (and I use this unironically) and awesome situation where a guy duels a big bad Chaos Lord or whatever, gets stabbed in the heart by a demon sword, holds onto the hilt of the blade so it can't be removed, laughs while spitting blood in his killer's face and then locking them both in a stasis bubble as a monument to Lukas' general dickery.
Personally, based on the fluff that looks EXACTLY like what it should be. If you don't like the rule because the previous one was more beneficial, sure that is your right of opinion.
But I would hope you wouldn't lean on "fluff destroying" when it seems to be painfully clear that it is bringing it more in line with what little fluff Lukas has rather than further away.
lexicanum -
Lukas later had a Stasis Bomb wired in place of his secondary heart, so that when his primary heart stops beating, he and the one who finally bests him will be frozen in time as a gruesome and eternal monument to his own glory - giving Lukas the last laugh after all.
Yeah, Stasis bomb'ing anything was dumb before. This makes a lot more sense. Depending on his cost, it may be a good idea for him to suck up challenges on the squad.
I just realized something with Luas as part of a Blood Claw Pack.
Blood Claw: Power Fist
WGPL: Power Sword
Lukas: Wolf Claw
Obligatory Wolf Priest: Power Maul
That is 4 Power Weapons!
Hulksmash wrote: Honestly in a lot of ways it's still the best counts-as book out there for variant chapters. Most of the SM stuff but with the ability to build an army the way you like.
I'll probably be using it for my Khorne themed army
Everyone will be
SW, again, are the best khorne codex, still strangely better for khorne than an army with blood named everything. Call bloodclaws khorne berserkers, load up 15+ champion in stormfangs and call it a raining blood list.
Anpu42 wrote: I just realized something with Luas as part of a Blood Claw Pack.
Blood Claw: Power Fist
WGPL: Power Sword
Lukas: Wolf Claw
Obligatory Wolf Priest: Power Maul
That is 4 Power Weapons!
Super Newb wrote: So I guess I may ask this here as its as good a place as any. The guy in the other thread who seems to have and I hope really does have the codex said plasma guns were 15 points each in the new codex for GHs?
Is that how much they are in the SM codex? Because holy crap going from 2 plasma guns for 10 points (because the second was free) to 30 points is quite a big change.
Boo hoo, that's indeed what everyone else pays for them. Of course vanilla tacticals cannot even have two plasmas.
Boo hoo? I suppose I am supposed to say something as mature as you, maybe something about 'butthurt'? Is that what the kids (or people who act like kids) are saying these days?
10 GH, PG, PG, MotW, Standard, Rhino or Pod for 220. Was (and is) more efficient and made the Grey Hunter and the best tactical, which fits the fluff. Now they're just whatever, just another marine. And standard tacticals don't live long as is unless you leverage combat tactics and maximize either survival (iron hands), lethality (imperial fists) ,or speed (white scars).
I don't want another Tactical Marine. I want Grey Hunters.
Uniquely equipable termies that in general cost only 3pts more than their counter-parts (makes sense with counter-attack)
Why do people keep making that argument? It's not like we have chapter tactics and counter-attack. While I understand not all chapter tactics are useful (for terminators in particular), it's not like we only gain on that deal. Counter-attack is also somewhat situational - you still want to be the one assaulting.
Super Newb wrote: Yeah Kbob, GHs definitely got nerfed quite a bit. They can't be good at shooting and CC for anywhere near the same points cost..
I think everyone expected that was coming though. They weren't nerfed so hard that they aren't still hella good though.
Old loadout: 10 GH - 150, 2 Melta - 5, Standard and Wulfen - 25 - 180 New Loadout 10 GH - 140, CCW - 20, 2 Melta - 20, WGPL - 10 - 190 So you lose standard and wulfen, but gain a WGBL for 10 points.
I don't like loss of Standard and Wulfen, but oh well.
There's also the fact that I can still take even cheaper GH and use them for Razorback purchases. 70 pt GH + Razorback just saved me points.
TheKbob wrote: Melee without EW is awful. Losing bear lord is awful. Ragnar being derpy is awful. There's a lot more bad than good. It continues the trend of bland, vanilla releases and selling you chocolate sauce and sprinkles later to get your flavor back.
Every way I used to run my Wolves is done. No more Logan bombs, no more superior 210-220 GH squads, no more bear lords. No more buckets of Ragnar attacks. Long Fangs appear to be stunted molars now. At least Lone Wolves are still good, but Arjac losing EW too? Geez...
Ugly flyers, childish new models, and killing old strategies and armies. Good show, GW. And assault blows, stop trying to up sell raged out bloodclaws in a flyer. If it dies, you remove all the claws and are left with a bunch of blood. Never seen this idea work in all of 6E, unless I'm missing something mind blowing in 7E.
So basically, they removed all the cheap BS from the army, and now you can't play it?
As for flyers as transports, given that vehicles in general, and flyers in particular, are more durable in 7th, I don't see much of a problem with the SW flyers being effective transports. As has already been said before, AA is becoming a dying trend, as most of it is not that effective, so really, the biggest worry is other flyers, and the puppy flyer is pretty effective at getting rid of those. A lot of people just don't want to take the risk for the reward.
TheKbob wrote: Melee without EW is awful. Losing bear lord is awful. Ragnar being derpy is awful. There's a lot more bad than good. It continues the trend of bland, vanilla releases and selling you chocolate sauce and sprinkles later to get your flavor back.
Every way I used to run my Wolves is done. No more Logan bombs, no more superior 210-220 GH squads, no more bear lords. No more buckets of Ragnar attacks. Long Fangs appear to be stunted molars now. At least Lone Wolves are still good, but Arjac losing EW too? Geez...
Ugly flyers, childish new models, and killing old strategies and armies. Good show, GW. And assault blows, stop trying to up sell raged out bloodclaws in a flyer. If it dies, you remove all the claws and are left with a bunch of blood. Never seen this idea work in all of 6E, unless I'm missing something mind blowing in 7E.
So basically, they removed all the cheap BS from the army, and now you can't play it?
As for flyers as transports, given that vehicles in general, and flyers in particular, are more durable in 7th, I don't see much of a problem with the SW flyers being effective transports. As has already been said before, AA is becoming a dying trend, as most of it is not that effective, so really, the biggest worry is other flyers, and the puppy flyer is pretty effective at getting rid of those. A lot of people just don't want to take the risk for the reward.
Don't even try. He's been like this for pages and pages.
pretre wrote: So you lose standard and wulfen, but gain a WGBL for 10 points.
Gain? This means the WG in squad costs 24 points now *since you upgrade a GH), where he was 18 before. That's before any upgrades. The only thing that helps with is to get more special weapons, since he counts as a model in the squad now. But I actually liked the old dilemma of "Ld 9/Special meelee weapon or Ld8 and second gun else you don't fit in 90% of transports".
Mind you, I'm not saying this codex sucks, although I do not fully agree with the direction it took the army in.
Uniquely equipable termies that in general cost only 3pts more than their counter-parts (makes sense with counter-attack)
Why do people keep making that argument?
Because the "uniquely equippable" part is a pretty important distinction I would think.
It's not like we have chapter tactics and counter-attack. While I understand not all chapter tactics are useful (for terminators in particular), it's not like we only gain on that deal. Counter-attack is also somewhat situational - you still want to be the one assaulting.
Dark Angels don't get Chapter Tactics. They also don't get uniquely equippable Terminators--and that's for the Legion and now Chapter that is famed for Terminator assaults.
Crimson wrote: Grey hunters were ridiculously undercosted before. Stop crying about a deserved nerf to an OP unit.
Oh, man, you're so right. Its why we've seen wolves just tearing it up all through 6E...
Nope. They don't have a cheap troops choice and GW over values a 3+ armor save in game of high volume shooting that is 6E and continues into 7E. The only way it works is with increased resilience (bikes) or MSU (combat squads).
I quit Wolves because even as good as Greys were, they still got mowed down quickly. And Blood Claws were never a good substitute and there is no "cheaper and effective" option like scouts.
Greys being the tactical kings was their thing. Marines got MSU, BA got cheaper fast rides, and DA got force org to never take their green point sinks.
Now its just a bland smear. Doesn't have me hopeful for a Blood Angels release at all.
pretre wrote: So you lose standard and wulfen, but gain a WGBL for 10 points.
Gain? This means the WG in squad costs 24 points now *since you upgrade a GH), where he was 18 before. That's before any upgrades. The only thing that helps with is to get more special weapons, since he counts as a model in the squad now. But I actually liked the old dilemma of "Ld 9/Special meelee weapon or Ld8 and second gun else you don't fit in 90% of transports".
Mind you, I'm not saying this codex sucks, although I do not fully agree with the direction it took the army in.
Except he didn't cost 18 before. He cost 54 for 3. The ability to not lose an elite slot and just take one is a big plus. I like that we don't have to give up our ld/special weapon to fit in a rhino. That was silly.
10 GH, PG, PG, MotW, Standard, Rhino or Pod for 220. Was (and is) more efficient and made the Grey Hunter and the best tactical, which fits the fluff. Now they're just whatever, just another marine. And standard tacticals don't live long as is unless you leverage combat tactics and maximize either survival (iron hands), lethality (imperial fists) ,or speed (white scars).
I don't want another Tactical Marine. I want Grey Hunters.
10 GH, 2x PG, PW and Drop Pod is 220, I think 235 with the banner [and only one per detachment]
[Sarcasm] Yes that is a devastating crushing points rise [/Sarcasm]
if you field 4 Grey Hunter Packs that's is less than 5 points a Grey Hunter Pack points increase.
Uniquely equipable termies that in general cost only 3pts more than their counter-parts (makes sense with counter-attack)
Why do people keep making that argument? It's not like we have chapter tactics and counter-attack. While I understand not all chapter tactics are useful (for terminators in particular), it's not like we only gain on that deal. Counter-attack is also somewhat situational - you still want to be the one assaulting.
So what chapter tactics work on terminators? Additionally what sm terminators can take combi-weapons?
I can still get a terminator w/a power axe and combi-weapon for 38pts. I'm relentless so the stormbolter isn't a lost since I'll be deepstriking/generally close to my opponents. I can now kill a big meany/tank on the drop/disembark. What terminator squad can do that? And then when you attack me I still get 3 attacks instead of 2. You have to consider the upgrade at what they can also take.
Chapter Tactics on Terminators are pointless. Loadouts on Terminators are pretty bad outside of Dark Angels (which also pay for it). Think of the 3pts as a tax for customability (which is also appropriate) if you have a problem with counter-attack.
Crimson wrote: Grey hunters were ridiculously undercosted before. Stop crying about a deserved nerf to an OP unit.
So you said 'Boo Hoo' before now you are claiming people are 'crying'. Are you trying to get an award for least liked individual? Did someone recently kick your puppy? How about you try to relax dude.
And being forced to buy an $80+ model ( or multiple) to be relevant is bad game design. Try playing other games where updates don't invalidate effective play styles but offer new ones. Folks with mark of the Wulfen models everywhere are probably not happy.
And losing EW from Bear Lords is massive. That kills thunder pups in my eyes. Having that tanking wound sink is important.
CCW are 2ppm
1 per squad may take a power weapon at 15ppm or Power fist at 25ppm
One GH can replace his Bolt Pistol for a plasma pistol 15ppm
For every 5 models, one may take a Special weapon.
One GH may become a WG Pack Leader 15pts
1 GH per detachment may take what I can only assume is a Wolf Banner/Standard. Can't make it out properly.
The WGPL may take weapons from the Melee Weapons and Ranged Weapons lists and may take Melta Bombs.
The WGPL may exchange his BP, CCW, PA and Grenades for TDA, Stormbolter and Power Weapon.
A WGT Pack Leader may take only from the Terminator Weapons 15pts
May take a Rhino, Razorback or Drop Pod or Stormwolf Assault Craft
Deadshot wrote:Dreadnought 95pts
Wargear
MM Power Fist with Built in Storm Bolter
Searchlight
Can take from Dreadnought weapons list.
Can swap PF for
Wolf Claw (retain SB) 5pts
Missile Launcher 10pts
Twin Linked Autocannon 15pts
Can swap SB for Heavy Flamer 10pts
Take Extra Armour 10pts
Smoke Launchers 5pts
Can upgrade to Venerable Status 25pts
One Venerable Dreadnought (must be Venerable, one per army) can swap their MM and PF+SB for the Axe of Fenris and Blizzard Shield. 25pts
May take a Drop Pod
Special Rules
Venerable
Adds 1 to Steal the Initiative
5+ Invulnerable Save
options
Can swap Assault Cannon for
Plasma or Helfrost Cannon for free
TL Lascannon for 5pts.
Relic: "True Claw?"
Str 10
AP 2
Master Crafted, Shred
Drop Pod option.
Deadshot wrote:
Harald Deathwolf.
190pts base
Wargear
Power Armour
Frost Axe
Bolt Pistol
Grenades
Storm Shield
Thunderwolf Mount. Apparently TW are now Wargear.
Special Rules
Counterattack
Outflank
Independent Character
Acute Senses
ATSKNF
Space Wolf units with the Unit Type Beasts or Cavalry can use his Ld value while within 12" of him.
Saga of the Wolf
Can take up to 2 Fenrisian Wolves for 8ppm
Relic: Mantle of King Ice Trolls (Literal translation).
More logical translation= Mantle of the King of the Ice Trolls
Makes Harald Deathwolf immune to the effects of Pyromancy Psychic Powers and Flamer Weapons as detailed in Warhammer 40, 000: The Rules
Wolf Scouts
Wargear
Scout Armour
Bolter
Bolt Pistol
Grenades
Power Armour for WGPL
Special Rules
Counterattack
Acute Senses
Infiltrate
Scouts
Move Through Cover
ATSKNF
5-10 Scouts per unit, 14ppm
Can take Camo Cloaks for 2ppm
One model may become WGPL for 10ppm
WGPL may take Ranged and Melee Weapons and Melta Bombs
Any Scout can swap their Bolter for a Shotgun or CCW for free, or a Sniper Rifle for 1ppm
Up to 2 Scouts may swap their Bolter for a Plasma Pistol or Power Weapon for 15ppm per weapon.
One Scout may swap his Bolter for a Heavy or Special Weapon.
Deadshot wrote:
Blood Claws
5-15 Blood Claws, 12ppm
Wargear
Power Armour
BP CCW Grenades
Special Rules
ATSKNF Acute Senses
Counterattack
Rage
Options
One may swap BP for Plasma Pistol 15pts
One may swap their CCW for a Power Weapon (15pts) or Power Fist (25pts)
One Blood Claw may take a Special Weapon and if the squad numbers 15 models, another Blood Claw may take one too.
One Blood Claw upgrade to WGPL for 10pts
May take Melee and Ranged weapons and Melta Bombs (5pts)
May swap all his gear for TDA, Power Weapon and Stormbolter, and then may take only from the Terminator Weapons for 15pts
Squad may take Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Stormwolf Assault Craft
Skyclaws
5-10 Skyclaws, 15ppm
Wargear
Power Armour
BP CCW Grenades
Jump Pack
Special Rules
ATSKNF Acute Senses
Counterattack
Rage (Skyclaws Only)
Options
2 Skyclaws may swap their Bolt Pistols for
Flamer 5pts
Meltagun 10pts
Plasma Gun or Pistol 15pts
One Skyclaw may swap his CCW for a
Power Weapon 15pts
Power Fist 25pts
One may upgrade to a Wolf Guard Sky Leader
May take from Ranged and Melee Weapons
May take Melta Bombs for 5pts
No option to remove Jump Packs or get a transport of any kind.
Deadshot wrote:
Wolf Guard 90pts base
4 WG, 1 WGPL
Wargear
Wargear
Power Armour
BP CCW Grenades
Special Rules
ATSKNF Acute Senses
Counterattack
Options
+5 Wolf Guard 18ppm
Any model may swap their Bolter for a CCW for free (mix and match allowed)
Any model may take from Ranged and Melee weapons (mix and match allowed)
Any model may have Melta Bombs for 5ppm
The unit may have Jump Packs for 3ppm or Bikes for 7ppm!!!
May take a Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Stormwolf Assault Craft OR any of the Land Raiders
NO OPTION FOR TERMINATOR ARMOUR. POSSIBLE IT IS NOW A SEPERATE UNIT
Deadshot wrote:Long Fangs 30pts base
1 Long Fang
1 Long Fang Ancient (sergeant)
Wargear
Bolt Pistol
CCW Grenades
Power Armour
Special Rules
Counterattack
Acute Senses
Split Fire
ATSKNF
Options
+4 Long Fangs 15ppm
Ancient may swap his pistol or Chainsword for a Power Weapon or Plasma Pistol (15pts) or Power Fist 25pts
Ancient may have Melta Bombs 5pts
Any Long Fang can have Heavy Weapons and Ancient can have a Special weapon.
One Long Fang can be upgraded to a WGPL for 10pts (only use for the awkward 5th Long Fang I think) for 10pts
May take Melee and Ranged weapons and Melta Bombs (5pts)
May swap all his gear for TDA, Power Weapon and Stormbolter, and then may take only from the Terminator Weapons 15pts
Squad may take Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Stormwolf Assault Craft
Deadshot wrote:Logan Grimnar. Unknown base cost. Lord of War
Wargear
Terminator Armour
Stormbolter
Belt of Russ
Saga of Majesty
Special Rules
Eternal Warrior
Independent Character
Acute Senses
Counterattack
Stubborn
ATSKNF
May take Stormrider at +70pts
Relics
Axe of Morkai
Grimnar may elect to use the Axe of Morkai one handed or Two Handed. He may freely choose which attack is going to be (ie, can choose 3x 1 handed and 1x 2 handed). This decision must be made before any blows are struck.
While riding Stormrider, Logan may move 12" in the movement phase. Stormrider itself has a 4+ Invulnerable Save. All Penetrating Hits against Stormrider count instead as Glancing Hits. Grimnar loses its special rule Deep Strike (which is given by his Terminator armor) can not join another unit or be joined by Independent Characters. While riding Stormrider, Logan may make an additional 4 Attacks at Str 5, AP- with the "Steely?" Special Rule. "This may provide an additional motion during combat to Join?" I'm thinking it means he has additional charge range but none is specified.
Psychic Powers
Primaris, Warp Charge 1
Witchfire with the following profile
Rg 18"
Str 7
AP-
Assault 3, Shock
Shock: Rolls of 6 to Hit automatically cause 2 more hits, unless Snap Firing.
1- Name Unknown, Warp Charge 1
This is a Blessing that targets the caster and his unit. For the remainder of the turn, the Psyker and his unit are Obscured.
2- Wrath of the Storm, Warp Charge 1
This is a Malediction that targets a single enemy unit within 18". For the remainder of the turn, that unit has -1 BS, and treats all terrain as Dangerous Terrain, even open Terrain. If the unit is a Jump, Jet, Jetbike, FMC, Flyer or Skimmer unit, or Immobilised, it must immediately take a Dangerous Terrain Test.
3- Thunderclap, Warp Charge 1
Nova with profile
Rg 12"
Str 3
AP-
Assault 2D6
5- Fury of the Wolf Spirits, Warp Charge 2
Witchfire
When manifesting this power the Psyker can shoot with the 2 profiles shown below, one at a time in any order. Both must target the same unit.
Range 18"
str 6 --- 5
AP - ---- 6
Assault 4----- Assault 2, Precision Shots
Jaws of the World Wolf, Warp Charge 2
Focussed Witchfire, Range 18"
Model hit takes Initiative Test, if it fails remoce it from play. Monstrous Creatures automatically pass the test and vehicles cannot be targetted.
Sagas/Warlord Traits
1- of the Warrior Born
Reroll failex hits in CC.
2- of the Wolf
The Warlord and any unit of Beasts or Cavalry he joins from Faction:Space Wolves has Stubborn. Also, any Beasts or Cavalry units from Faction Space Wolves within 12" of the Warlord gains Furious Charge until the end of the assault Phase
3- of the Beastslayer
Grants the Warlord Monster Hunter
4- of the Bear
Grants the Warlord Feel No Pain (6+)
5- of the Hunter
Grants the Warlord Scout and Outflank
6- of Majesty
Any unit of Space Wolves within 12" may reroll Morale and Pinning
Deadshot wrote:Special Rules in the summary Section. The pattern goes from top left to bottom right.
Murderlust
Murderfang is immune to Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned but still loses a Hull Point.
Drop Pod Assault
As normal
Cunning of the Wolf (Great Company Formation ONLY)
During deployment, roll a D6 for each unit in the formation and add +2 if they are troops or have an IC from the Formation attached to the unit. On a roll of 6+, the unit gains the Outflank rule. Additionally, at the start of any turn except the first, you may choose which units to keep in deployment instead of rolling. These units enter ongoing reserves and come in automatically next turn.
Howl of War?
Ragnar Blackmane and his unit have Furious Charge
Howl of the Wolf? (Great Company only)
The Wolf Lord from the formation and his unit have Furious Charge and Fleet.
Mindlock
As normal
"Demented Bravado"
Ragnar Blackmane must issue and accept challenges where possible.
Grimnar's Champion
Arjac Rockfist must issue and accept challenges where possible, and may reroll to hit rolls in a challenge.
The Last Laugh
If Lukas the Trickster is slain in a challenge, each player must roll a dice. If the Space Wolf player rolls high, Lukas' opponent is also removed as a casualty.
Great Company FormationÂ
Note these Rules apply to this formation ONLY!Â
CompositionÂ
1 Wolf LordÂ
1 Wolf Guard Battle LeaderÂ
1 Unit of Wolf GuardÂ
1 Unit of Wolf ScoutsÂ
2 Units of Long FangsÂ
3 Units chosen from; Blood Claws, Skyclaws, Swiftclaws, in any combination.Â
5 Units of Grey Hunters. One unit must have the Wolf Standard.Â
Formation special rulesÂ
Cunning of the WolfÂ
During deployment, roll a D6 for each unit in the formation and add +2 if they are troops or have an IC from the Formation attached to the unit. On a roll of 6+, the unit gains the Outflank rule. Additionally, at the start of any turn except the first, you may choose which units to keep in deployment instead of rolling. These units enter ongoing reserves and come in automatically next turn. Â
Howl of the WolfÂ
The Wolf Lord and his unit from this Formation have the Furious Charge and Fleet special rule.Â
Jarl of Russ (Jarl is SW lingo)Â
The Warlord may reroll his Saga if chosen from this Formation.
If OP or a Mod could swap out the translation in the OP for this post, its got the entire set of leaked pics translated.
10 GH, PG, PG, MotW, Standard, Rhino or Pod for 220. Was (and is) more efficient and made the Grey Hunter and the best tactical, which fits the fluff. Now they're just whatever, just another marine. And standard tacticals don't live long as is unless you leverage combat tactics and maximize either survival (iron hands), lethality (imperial fists) ,or speed (white scars).
I don't want another Tactical Marine. I want Grey Hunters.
10 GH, 2x PG, PW and Drop Pod is 220, I think 235 with the banner [and only one per detachment]
[Sarcasm] Yes that is a devastating crushing points rise [/Sarcasm]
if you field 4 Grey Hunter Packs that's is less than 5 points a Grey Hunter Pack points increase.
Nine less attacks standard, plus loss of mark, plus loss of rerolls on all units.
Yes, that's a big hit. Before, people would butt pucker at the thought of charging a fresh unit of Greys. Now it's much less scary. And I've already explained why tacticals blow this edition.
So what chapter tactics work on terminators? Additionally what sm terminators can take combi-weapons?
Which one? Let's see.
IH gives them FNP.
IF gives them rerolls on storm bolters.
UM gives them some various benefits.
BT gives some stuff
Is it as good as CA? Well, maybe it is, maybe it's not, but is that worth 3ppm? Customization I suppose is the biggest strength, that I can agree with. But some combos are [i]still[i/] way overpriced.
pretre wrote: So you lose standard and wulfen, but gain a WGBL for 10 points.
Gain? This means the WG in squad costs 24 points now *since you upgrade a GH), where he was 18 before. That's before any upgrades. The only thing that helps with is to get more special weapons, since he counts as a model in the squad now. But I actually liked the old dilemma of "Ld 9/Special meelee weapon or Ld8 and second gun else you don't fit in 90% of transports".
Mind you, I'm not saying this codex sucks, although I do not fully agree with the direction it took the army in.
Except he didn't cost 18 before. He cost 54 for 3. The ability to not lose an elite slot and just take one is a big plus. I like that we don't have to give up our ld/special weapon to fit in a rhino. That was silly.
Well difference in taste I guess. I liked it and 3 WGs was not a problem, you always would have at least 3 squads of something in all but smallest games.
So what chapter tactics work on terminators? Additionally what sm terminators can take combi-weapons?
I can still get a terminator w/a power axe and combi-weapon for 38pts. I'm relentless so the stormbolter isn't a lost since I'll be deepstriking/generally close to my opponents. I can now kill a big meany/tank on the drop/disembark. What terminator squad can do that? And then when you attack me I still get 3 attacks instead of 2. You have to consider the upgrade at what they can also take.
Chapter Tactics on Terminators are pointless. Loadouts on Terminators are pretty bad outside of Dark Angels (which also pay for it). Think of the 3pts as a tax for customability (which is also appropriate) if you have a problem with counter-attack.
The only Chapter Tactics that work on terminators that I can think of are Imperial Fist bolter drills, but who uses tactical termies?
Imagine a bike mounted unit with the standard. 5 Attacks on the charge. Even without 25pt Vet Bikers is scary as hell with the new Jink rules. Add a few combi's and power axes and go to town.
1 Wolf Lord
1 Wolf Guard Battle Leader
1 Unit of Wolf Guard
1 Unit of Wolf Scouts
2 Units of Long Fangs
3 Units chosen from; Blood Claws, Skyclaws, Swiftclaws, in any combination.
5 Units of Grey Hunters. One unit must have the Wolf Standard.
Formation special rules
Cunning of the Wolf
During deployment, roll a D6 for each unit in the formation and add +2 if they are troops or have an IC from the Formation attached to the unit. On a roll of 6+, the unit gains the Outflank rule. Additionally, at the start of any turn except the first, you may choose which units to keep in deployment instead of rolling. These units enter ongoing reserves and come in automatically next turn.Â
Howl of the Wolf
The Wolf Lord and his unit from this Formation have the Furious Charge and Fleet special rule.
Jarl of Russ (Jarl is SW lingo)
The Warlord may reroll his Saga if chosen from this Formation.
10 GH, PG, PG, MotW, Standard, Rhino or Pod for 220. Was (and is) more efficient and made the Grey Hunter and the best tactical, which fits the fluff. Now they're just whatever, just another marine. And standard tacticals don't live long as is unless you leverage combat tactics and maximize either survival (iron hands), lethality (imperial fists) ,or speed (white scars).
I don't want another Tactical Marine. I want Grey Hunters.
10 GH, 2x PG, PW and Drop Pod is 220, I think 235 with the banner [and only one per detachment]
[Sarcasm] Yes that is a devastating crushing points rise [/Sarcasm]
if you field 4 Grey Hunter Packs that's is less than 5 points a Grey Hunter Pack points increase.
Nine less stacks standard, plus loss of mark, plus loss of rerolls on all units.
Yes, that's a big hit. Before, people would butt pucker at the thought of charging a fresh unit of Greys. Now it's much less scary.
So when Assault/Get Assaulted we get 20 Attacks [no more LD Needed for that]
For 10 or 15 points you can kick that up to 30 [Wolf Standard, that does not go away]
And for around 20 that become 40
These number should impress Orks and Nids and piss off Khorn.
So what chapter tactics work on terminators? Additionally what sm terminators can take combi-weapons?
I can still get a terminator w/a power axe and combi-weapon for 38pts. I'm relentless so the stormbolter isn't a lost since I'll be deepstriking/generally close to my opponents. I can now kill a big meany/tank on the drop/disembark. What terminator squad can do that? And then when you attack me I still get 3 attacks instead of 2. You have to consider the upgrade at what they can also take.
Chapter Tactics on Terminators are pointless. Loadouts on Terminators are pretty bad outside of Dark Angels (which also pay for it). Think of the 3pts as a tax for customability (which is also appropriate) if you have a problem with counter-attack.
The only Chapter Tactics that work on terminators that I can think of are Imperial Fist bolter drills, but who uses tactical termies?
Wait, did they FAQ Iron hands FNP and Salamanders flamer resistance/proficiency and Sargent s MC weapon to not work on Terminators or something?
1 Wolf Lord
1 Wolf Guard Battle Leader
1 Unit of Wolf Guard
1 Unit of Wolf Scouts
2 Units of Long Fangs
3 Units chosen from; Blood Claws, Skyclaws, Swiftclaws, in any combination.
5 Units of Grey Hunters. One unit must have the Wolf Standard.
Formation special rules
Cunning of the Wolf
During deployment, roll a D6 for each unit in the formation and add +2 if they are troops or have an IC from the Formation attached to the unit. On a roll of 6+, the unit gains the Outflank rule. Additionally, at the start of any turn except the first, you may choose which units to keep in deployment instead of rolling. These units enter ongoing reserves and come in automatically next turn.Â
Howl of the Wolf
The Wolf Lord and his unit from this Formation have the Furious Charge and Fleet special rule.
Jarl of Russ (Jarl is SW lingo)
The Warlord may reroll his Saga if chosen from this Formation.
Other then fleet that's pretty ass, outflank kinda sucks now with the fact you cannot charge from reserves.
So when Assault/Get Assaulted we get 20 Attacks [no more LD Needed for that]
For 10 or 15 points you can kick that up to 30 [Wolf Standard, that does not go away]
And for around 20 that become 40
These number should impress Orks and Nids and piss off Khorn.
On one unit. Assuming the banner doesnt die. And at a higher points cost. Still not selling me on it.I'd rather have to 20 attacks base plus 10 for CA, 30 total always for all squads and then the standard for rerolls. Far superior.
TheKbob wrote: And losing EW from Bear Lords is massive. That kills thunder pups in my eyes. Having that tanking wound sink is important.
Try losing EW from an entire Codex. Look what happened to Bloodcrushers when the new Daemon codex came out. I have no sympathy for SW losing EW from a couple of models.
1 Wolf Lord
1 Wolf Guard Battle Leader
1 Unit of Wolf Guard
1 Unit of Wolf Scouts
2 Units of Long Fangs
3 Units chosen from; Blood Claws, Skyclaws, Swiftclaws, in any combination.
5 Units of Grey Hunters. One unit must have the Wolf Standard.
Formation special rules
Cunning of the Wolf
During deployment, roll a D6 for each unit in the formation and add +2 if they are troops or have an IC from the Formation attached to the unit. On a roll of 6+, the unit gains the Outflank rule. Additionally, at the start of any turn except the first, you may choose which units to keep in deployment instead of rolling. These units enter ongoing reserves and come in automatically next turn.Â
Howl of the Wolf
The Wolf Lord and his unit from this Formation have the Furious Charge and Fleet special rule.
Jarl of Russ (Jarl is SW lingo)
The Warlord may reroll his Saga if chosen from this Formation.
Well as a ballpark estimation, about 3k using max model Units
So you said 'Boo Hoo' before now you are claiming people are 'crying'. Are you trying to get an award for least liked individual? Did someone recently kick your puppy? How about you try to relax dude.
Eh, I'm just surprised that people are surprised by Grey Hunters getting a price adjustment. I thought that it was consensus before that they were undercosted when compared to other Marine troops. Now they cost same as Tacticals, with about the same base competence, but get better options (for appropriate point cost.) They're still really good.
I don't expect too many people will be sympathetic to people disappointed with the changes to Grey Hunters.
That said, the book overall looks like it's being brought more in line with recent releases, homogenizing the more generic units and heavily emphasizing the more "unique" things like TWC's and the new flyers as opposed to simply having "Tac's +1".
While I'm not much of a fan of concept TWC's or the look of the new flyer, those are personal subjective opinions, and from a design standpoint is likely to be a better way to differentiate SW's from other marines, as opposed to trying to do so through making the "equivalent" units (e.g. Long Fangs vs Devastators) the differentiators.
TheKbob wrote: And losing EW from Bear Lords is massive. That kills thunder pups in my eyes. Having that tanking wound sink is important.
Try losing EW from an entire Codex. Look what happened to Bloodcrushers when the new Daemon codex came out. I have no sympathy for SW losing EW from a couple of models.
One bad rules change doesn't deserve another. And its the issue with instant death as a poor mechanic than lacking EW.
Grey Hunters staying at 15ppm for what they had is inline with other marines. For what chapter tactics you get at 14 ppm, it makes sense. Now they get nothing to show for 15ppm. That's dumb.
So when Assault/Get Assaulted we get 20 Attacks [no more LD Needed for that]
For 10 or 15 points you can kick that up to 30 [Wolf Standard, that does not go away]
And for around 20 that become 40
These number should impress Orks and Nids and piss off Khorn.
On one unit. Assuming the banner doesnt die. And at a higher points cost. Still not selling me on it.I'd rather have to 20 attacks base plus 10 for CA, 30 total always for all squads and then the standard for rerolls. Far superior.
I am not disagreeing with you on that, but considering what they could have done, I am good with it.
I am going to miss the loss of MotW, it was a core of a lot of what I usually built. I am going to have to change all of my MotW Grey Hunters into WGBL {I don't think that is a bad thing over all}.
I have two Lone Wolves that are going to be having to replace there MotW with Power Swords, or if it an option, Frost Blades {Another might not be a bad thing}.
So Grey Hunters got more expensive, there are still better than any other Tactical Squad out there and we should be paying for that.
It will also give one less thing for those Non-Wolves out there to whine about.
So you said 'Boo Hoo' before now you are claiming people are 'crying'. Are you trying to get an award for least liked individual? Did someone recently kick your puppy? How about you try to relax dude.
Eh, I'm just surprised that people are surprised by Grey Hunters getting a price adjustment. I thought that it was consensus before that they were undercosted when compared to other Marine troops. Now they cost same as Tacticals, with about the same base competence, but get better options (for appropriate point cost.) They're still really good.
See now that's better. The logic, which is good logic, without the snark/baiting whatever.
Anyway, if folks don't get the CCW upgrade, then 10 GH with two meltas is 160 which isn't bad at all for a shooting squad. 10 GH with plasmas is 170. Again not too bad. And if people want to load up on AP2 a 10 man squad could end up with 7 AP2 shots within 12 inches. Not too shabby for a drop pod squad...
So in the other thread it was said that the wolf standard gives +1 attack to all friendlies within 6" at all times. Pending on how cheap this is, it might be a nice way to go around the 2pt cost of a CCW. Or you just stack up both and have grey hunters with 4 attacks on the charge/counter attack.
That seems pretty nice. If we can put a wolf standard in wolf guard, that would be very, very nice. TDA running around with TH/SS and 3 attacks base?
gwarsh41 wrote: So in the other thread it was said that the wolf standard gives +1 attack to all friendlies within 6" at all times. Pending on how cheap this is, it might be a nice way to go around the 2pt cost of a CCW. Or you just stack up both and have grey hunters with 4 attacks on the charge/counter attack.
That seems pretty nice. If we can put a wolf standard in wolf guard, that would be very, very nice. TDA running around with TH/SS and 3 attacks base?
The Standard for One Grey Hunter Pack per Detachment/Formation {Whatever it is called Now}
If you do it right that could cover 2-4 other Packs.
Anpu42 wrote: So Grey Hunters got more expensive, there are still better than any other Tactical Squad out there and we should be paying for that.
It will also give one less thing for those Non-Wolves out there to whine about.
They are worse than marines because they cost more and don't benefit from combat squads. Acute senses is fluffy, but generally worthless. Counter attack would be chapter tactics, thus free at 14ppm.
Literally everything about them got worse. I expect this book to be not seen on the competitive circuits as "Space Marines do it better.". Rune Priests are just bog standard libbys. We lost our beat stick HQ option. And many other things got bland. The Flyer is nice, finally, but ugly as sin. Dreads are still dreads, terrible.
I don't see this book going anywhere. It deleted fluff and army composition. Its the same format and layout as orks, which is bad. So not much to be excited about. They didn't screw up Lone Wolves, yay!
10 GH, PG, PG, MotW, Standard, Rhino or Pod for 220. Was (and is) more efficient and made the Grey Hunter and the best tactical, which fits the fluff. Now they're just whatever, just another marine. And standard tacticals don't live long as is unless you leverage combat tactics and maximize either survival (iron hands), lethality (imperial fists) ,or speed (white scars).
I don't want another Tactical Marine. I want Grey Hunters.
10 GH, 2x PG, PW and Drop Pod is 220, I think 235 with the banner [and only one per detachment]
[Sarcasm] Yes that is a devastating crushing points rise [/Sarcasm]
if you field 4 Grey Hunter Packs that's is less than 5 points a Grey Hunter Pack points increase.
Nine less attacks standard, plus loss of mark, plus loss of rerolls on all units.
Yes, that's a big hit. Before, people would butt pucker at the thought of charging a fresh unit of Greys. Now it's much less scary. And I've already explained why tacticals blow this edition.
And you don't feel that it was a deserved hit though? Do you honestly believe that Grey Hunters were priced fairly for their abilities in comparison with their peers (ie, other tactical squads)? Grey Hunters are largely the same, they just cost more and lost a couple of OTT upgrades. They still have counter attack (which is better in 7th), they still have the option to get CCWs and two special weapons. They are still superior in damage output when compared to codex tactical squads in just about every way, but now they have to pay for that superiority. Why is that a problem?
People are always screaming about balance, and when GW tries to balance an underpriced unit by bringing its price and options more in line with similar units, those same people tend to scream about how it was an unnecessary nerf that ruined the unit.
Anpu42 wrote: So Grey Hunters got more expensive, there are still better than any other Tactical Squad out there and we should be paying for that.
It will also give one less thing for those Non-Wolves out there to whine about.
They are worse than marines because they cost more and don't benefit from combat squads. Acute senses is fluffy, but generally worthless. Counter attack would be chapter tactics, thus free at 14ppm.
Literally everything about them got worse. I expect this book to be not seen on the competitive circuits as "Space Marines do it better.". Rune Priests are just bog standard libbys. We lost our beat stick HQ option. And many other things got bland. The Flyer is nice, finally, but ugly as sin. Dreads are still dreads, terrible.
I don't see this book going anywhere. It deleted fluff and army composition. Its the same format and layout as orks, which is bad. So not much to be excited about. They didn't screw up Lone Wolves, yay!
Well let's see
Space Marines: Ultramarines for reference
Same stats
Chapter Tactics and Combat Squads vs Acute Senses and Counterattack. Maybe in your opinion they aren't fair but it is in fact a fair trade. 2 rules for 2 rules. Just because Acute Senses and Outflank arn't used in competitive or your meta, doesn't mean it should be free. These cancel out.
Both have Bolter, BP, Grenades and PA. Grey Hunters have CCW which bumps their price. They are now externally balanced.
I actually cant believe how much dripping people are doing.
I just got the SW force from going halves on the latest boxed set with a mate and I am raring to go at it, from playing vanilla for years and nobody else, and carefully reading the codex entries, they do seem to have plenty of different units and compositions from vanilla, and I am certain I can make a decent list with just a few additions (I'm actually hoping to just repaint some of my many regular Space Marines to keep the cost down!)
Instead of endlessly whining, why not wait until you actually get your hands on the codex, and sit down and strategize, play around, BUILD a list from scratch, it is part of the fun.
Seriously I played against SW back in 5th and they were flat out broken, they could fit something like 18 ML into a 1000pt list, as such I see the dripping as nothing more than childish whining because some of the broken got fixed.
Do people realize assaulting is very difficult in 40k and that everything in the codex dies 1/3rd of the time? Spending 240 pts on a GH squad is insane. Rapid firing bolters will kill a 3rd of the squad, we wont even talk about good shooting units. My problem with this release is it did nothing to combat the two problems SW had in a fairly competitive situation...
1. Flier defense. Our flier is too expensive. No one takes Storm Ravens and they have almost as many guns and they are 30 pts cheaper! Our fliers look good but they aren't going to be competitive. A 250 pt model that comes in on turn 2-3, gets 1-2 rounds of good shooting if you are lucky and dont get blown up isnt great. Storm Talon, Night Scythes are both much better, less firepower but lots cheaper and more reliable.
2, Shooting. We are playing in a shooting game. Having counter assault elements is a good thing, a whole army of counter assault units is a bad thing as while we pull dead guys off the table, our opponent doesn't lose models. We have no units that can lay down withering firepower. Yeah we have all kinds of combiweapons, but very little round to round guns except for bolters and a few MLs Long Fangs that usually die after turn 2-3.
If you like the models- great, I do too. But posting units that are expensive and would never see a tournament table (which is fine) but claiming how good they are is pointless.
And outflanking is just as good/bad as it always was. You come on the wrong side of the table, you fail to make your reserve rolls, and when everything goes perfect and you come on when you want and where, the opponent has a full turn to blow you away before you do anything.
Anpu42 wrote: So Grey Hunters got more expensive, there are still better than any other Tactical Squad out there and we should be paying for that.
It will also give one less thing for those Non-Wolves out there to whine about.
They are worse than marines because they cost more and don't benefit from combat squads. Acute senses is fluffy, but generally worthless. Counter attack would be chapter tactics, thus free at 14ppm.
Literally everything about them got worse. I expect this book to be not seen on the competitive circuits as "Space Marines do it better.". Rune Priests are just bog standard libbys. We lost our beat stick HQ option. And many other things got bland. The Flyer is nice, finally, but ugly as sin. Dreads are still dreads, terrible.
I don't see this book going anywhere. It deleted fluff and army composition. Its the same format and layout as orks, which is bad. So not much to be excited about. They didn't screw up Lone Wolves, yay!
Well let's see
Space Marines: Ultramarines for reference
Same stats
Chapter Tactics and Combat Squads vs Acute Senses and Counterattack. Maybe in your opinion they aren't fair but it is in fact a fair trade. 2 rules for 2 rules. Just because Acute Senses and Outflank arn't used in competitive or your meta, doesn't mean it should be free. These cancel out.
Both have Bolter, BP, Grenades and PA. Grey Hunters have CCW which bumps their price. They are now externally balanced.
But wait, if they are balanced, how come SM get Scouts as troops, that can take Storms? And how come SM get Centurions and Storm Talons? It is ridiculous to look at things in a vacuum which is what you are doing. C:SM has way more shooting elements than we do. They have more options in general. So why isnt okay if GH are 1 point better than they cost? Especially when C:SM can choose their chapter traits, whereas GH get 2 that are situational at best.
Anpu42 wrote: So Grey Hunters got more expensive, there are still better than any other Tactical Squad out there and we should be paying for that.
It will also give one less thing for those Non-Wolves out there to whine about.
They are worse than marines because they cost more and don't benefit from combat squads. Acute senses is fluffy, but generally worthless. Counter attack would be chapter tactics, thus free at 14ppm.
They cost exactly the same, everything cost the same.
We just get to buy a CCW.
Literally everything about them got worse. I expect this book to be not seen on the competitive circuits as "Space Marines do it better.". Rune Priests are just bog standard libbys. We lost our beat stick HQ option. And many other things got bland. The Flyer is nice, finally, but ugly as sin. Dreads are still dreads, terrible.
On Dreads and EW Dreads: Until they change the core rules for Walkers, they all have the same issue.
Eternal Warrior: Was created in response to ID. Rather than fix or remove ID, they came up with EW. Until they remove ID, the lack of EW will always be a problem, Not a SW Problem an Everybody Problem.
All of our HQ can be Beat-Sticks, they can just die like 90% of every other Multi-Wound Model out there.
Well I like out Fliers, personal opinion there will not argue that.
I don't see this book going anywhere. It deleted fluff and army composition. Its the same format and layout as Orks, which is bad. So not much to be excited about. They didn't screw up Lone Wolves, yay!
I personally look at Fluff changes to "New Codex Syndrome". I never read the fluff until I have had the bood for a month or so it will not influence my play.
Deleted Army Compensation???
FOC Changes: It mostly effects me because I normally only played with one HQ, now I need to come with one more for my "Core".
Lack of FOC Manipulation: They have been making that go away since late 6th. That and Anyone Can Score, Formations, & Unbound...it is unnecessary.
gwarsh41 wrote: So in the other thread it was said that the wolf standard gives +1 attack to all friendlies within 6" at all times. Pending on how cheap this is, it might be a nice way to go around the 2pt cost of a CCW. Or you just stack up both and have grey hunters with 4 attacks on the charge/counter attack.
That seems pretty nice. If we can put a wolf standard in wolf guard, that would be very, very nice. TDA running around with TH/SS and 3 attacks base?
The Standard for One Grey Hunter Pack per Detachment/Formation {Whatever it is called Now}
If you do it right that could cover 2-4 other Packs.
I am sure it's 6" assigned per model. In that case you'd need to be in a humorous formation to get more then one squad to benefit from that.
Really hanging on Lone Wolves here. Won't lie, losing MoW, normal standards and several other defining traits (sagas, logans high king, behind enemy lines) hurts, but I was expecting a fair amount of damage. Grey hunters went up to load out for combat, but honestly nobody assaults my vanilla marines anymore. Shooting is basically the only way to play competitively anyway. So really they make super cheap drop troops still.
I'd have to say codex marines have better troops though, combat squads is the most understated ability in 40k. It shocks me whenever I see players ignore this major difference. IMO that was the biggest price wolves pay for having more gear or abilities.
Red Corsair wrote: Really hanging on Lone Wolves here. Won't lie, losing MoW, normal standards and several other defining traits (sagas, logans high king, behind enemy lines) hurts, but I was expecting a fair amount of damage. Grey hunters went up to load out for combat, but honestly nobody assaults my vanilla marines anymore. Shooting is basically the only way to play competitively anyway. So really they make super cheap drop troops still.
It's funny because most of what you're talking about came from the last codex and it's really a defining SW trait. Having played SW since the beginning of 3rd, we've gone through a lot of iterations and this is looking to be just another one of those.
FOC Changes: It mostly effects me because I normally only played with one HQ, now I need to come with one more for my "Core".
Lack of FOC Manipulation: They have been making that go away since late 6th. That and Anyone Can Score, Formations, & Unbound...it is unnecessary.
AKA GW forcing you to use their bad mechanics because it means spending more money but will likely just force further disinterest.
gwarsh41 wrote: So in the other thread it was said that the wolf standard gives +1 attack to all friendlies within 6" at all times. Pending on how cheap this is, it might be a nice way to go around the 2pt cost of a CCW. Or you just stack up both and have grey hunters with 4 attacks on the charge/counter attack.
That seems pretty nice. If we can put a wolf standard in wolf guard, that would be very, very nice. TDA running around with TH/SS and 3 attacks base?
The Standard for One Grey Hunter Pack per Detachment/Formation {Whatever it is called Now}
If you do it right that could cover 2-4 other Packs.
I am sure it's 6" assigned per model. In that case you'd need to be in a humorous formation to get more then one squad to benefit from that.
Really hanging on Lone Wolves here. Won't lie, losing MoW, normal standards and several other defining traits (sagas, logans high king, behind enemy lines) hurts, but I was expecting a fair amount of damage. Grey hunters went up to load out for combat, but honestly nobody assaults my vanilla marines anymore. Shooting is basically the only way to play competitively anyway. So really they make super cheap drop troops still.
I'd have to say codex marines have better troops though, combat squads is the most understated ability in 40k. It shocks me whenever I see players ignore this major difference. IMO that was the biggest price wolves pay for having more gear or abilities.
Yes Combat Squads are probably the most under looked/used rule in the game.
The two thing people forget, You don't decide until you deploy most of the time. The rest of the time you are making the choice when you get out your transport.
That and you end up in an objective mission...POOF! I just doubled my number of Scoring/Denial Units!.
FOC Changes: It mostly effects me because I normally only played with one HQ, now I need to come with one more for my "Core".
Lack of FOC Manipulation: They have been making that go away since late 6th. That and Anyone Can Score, Formations, & Unbound...it is unnecessary.
AKA GW forcing you to use their bad mechanics because it means spending more money but will likely just force further disinterest.
Well for some that might be an issue, but for me, I have 25 years and 12k worth of models to choose from.
It is also not hard for most people to find a model to pop on a Power Weapon and go "Here is my Wolf Lord!"
My metric for that is how much GW has gotten me to spend already. I have not bought a lot of NIB stuff for years. Previous to this, I think I may have bought a couple immolators 3-4 years ago as buy-in for a tournament.
Since Stormclaw, I've bought that and just ordered 2 Stormclaws, a Vendread and I'll definitely be getting Logan.
I think I've got the answer, but I just wanted to clarify something...
for most squads (excluding Long Fangs), they don't come with sergeants, correct? So upgrading one of the members of the squad to a WGPL is what creates the 'squad leader', right?
If that is correct, how does that work with long fangs since they come with a long fang ancient? does the ancient become the WGPL or does the mystery 6th marine become the leader?
I only ask because I'm getting ready to start assembling some stuff, so I'm just trying to clarify. Sadly I won't be able to pick up my codex until next week.
godswildcard wrote: I think I've got the answer, but I just wanted to clarify something...
for most squads (excluding Long Fangs), they don't come with sergeants, correct? So upgrading one of the members of the squad to a WGPL is what creates the 'squad leader', right?
If that is correct, how does that work with long fangs since they come with a long fang ancient? does the ancient become the WGPL or does the mystery 6th marine become the leader?
I only ask because I'm getting ready to start assembling some stuff, so I'm just trying to clarify. Sadly I won't be able to pick up my codex until next week.
Supposedly it can be the Ancient, but I wouldn't assemble stuff until you get the codex if you are unsure.
Red Corsair wrote: Really hanging on Lone Wolves here. Won't lie, losing MoW, normal standards and several other defining traits (sagas, logans high king, behind enemy lines) hurts, but I was expecting a fair amount of damage. Grey hunters went up to load out for combat, but honestly nobody assaults my vanilla marines anymore. Shooting is basically the only way to play competitively anyway. So really they make super cheap drop troops still.
It's funny because most of what you're talking about came from the last codex and it's really a defining SW trait. Having played SW since the beginning of 3rd, we've gone through a lot of iterations and this is looking to be just another one of those.
I've played since them since 2nd, the third edition codex was a pamphlet. The first real substantial codex we have had since they changed the mechanics of 40k was the 5th ed codex. So to me, this is how they decided to define wolves. I am well aware they can retcon and change what they like, but a lot of the flavor is being lost here. Banners and MoW weren't just mechanics in game, they allowed for great modelling and themed armies. Now GH are much closer to tacs.
As I said, I don't think it's nearly as bad as some. Luckily we have the option for BP,BG CCW for example but I am nervous about what they may have done to lone wolves and Cav.
Also the new FOC doesn't have to be taken, you can take the one out of the main rules, which gives you the 1 HQ choice and 2 troops plus the bonuses that gives you. Meaning you don't have to take 2 HQ's to make a SW army legal.
Red Corsair wrote: Really hanging on Lone Wolves here. Won't lie, losing MoW, normal standards and several other defining traits (sagas, logans high king, behind enemy lines) hurts, but I was expecting a fair amount of damage. Grey hunters went up to load out for combat, but honestly nobody assaults my vanilla marines anymore. Shooting is basically the only way to play competitively anyway. So really they make super cheap drop troops still.
It's funny because most of what you're talking about came from the last codex and it's really a defining SW trait. Having played SW since the beginning of 3rd, we've gone through a lot of iterations and this is looking to be just another one of those.
I've played since them since 2nd, the third edition codex was a pamphlet. The first real substantial codex we have had since they changed the mechanics of 40k was the 5th ed codex. So to me, this is how they decided to define wolves. I am well aware they can retcon and change what they like, but a lot of the flavor is being lost here. Banners and MoW weren't just mechanics in game, they allowed for great modelling and themed armies. Now GH are much closer to tacs.
As I said, I don't think it's nearly as bad as some. Luckily we have the option for BP,BG CCW for example but I am nervous about what they may have done to lone wolves and Cav.
Playing them since Rouge Trader.
I loved 2nd
>10 Man Teleporting Terminators Packs with Assault Cannons and Cyclones for all.
>Long Fangs with a mix of Las-Cannons and Auto-Cannons
>Leman Russ Tanks.
The good old days.
3rd
>They removed Bjorn
>They removed Teleporting
> Removed Russ's
>Mandatory HQ per 750 Points
5th
>We got back Bjorn, but without his lighting Claw
>Gained Saga's
>x2 the Number of HQs
Now
>Bjorn Got back his Lighting Claw
>2-6 HQs >Got Teleport Back
To me the now book feels much more like the 2nd edition book, and I think that is a good thing.
That Stormfang looks like a Higgins boat with some X-wing parts stuck on. Murderwhatsit is just too silly for words. How much cheaper would GW stuff be if they didn't spend so much on all the paint thinner that you'd have to huff to think up crap like this?
Red Corsair wrote: Really hanging on Lone Wolves here. Won't lie, losing MoW, normal standards and several other defining traits (sagas, logans high king, behind enemy lines) hurts, but I was expecting a fair amount of damage. Grey hunters went up to load out for combat, but honestly nobody assaults my vanilla marines anymore. Shooting is basically the only way to play competitively anyway. So really they make super cheap drop troops still.
It's funny because most of what you're talking about came from the last codex and it's really a defining SW trait. Having played SW since the beginning of 3rd, we've gone through a lot of iterations and this is looking to be just another one of those.
I've played since them since 2nd, the third edition codex was a pamphlet. The first real substantial codex we have had since they changed the mechanics of 40k was the 5th ed codex. So to me, this is how they decided to define wolves. I am well aware they can retcon and change what they like, but a lot of the flavor is being lost here. Banners and MoW weren't just mechanics in game, they allowed for great modelling and themed armies. Now GH are much closer to tacs.
As I said, I don't think it's nearly as bad as some. Luckily we have the option for BP,BG CCW for example but I am nervous about what they may have done to lone wolves and Cav.
Playing them since Rouge Trader.
I loved 2nd
>10 Man Teleporting Terminators Packs with Assault Cannons and Cyclones for all.
>Long Fangs with a mix of Las-Cannons and Auto-Cannons
>Leman Russ Tanks.
The good old days.
3rd
>They removed Bjorn
>They removed Teleporting
> Removed Russ's
>Mandatory HQ per 750 Points
5th
>We got back Bjorn, but without his lighting Claw
>Gained Saga's
>x2 the Number of HQs
Now
>Bjorn Got back his Lighting Claw
>2-6 HQs >Got Teleport Back
To me the now book feels much more like the 2nd edition book, and I think that is a good thing.
See as much fun as 2nd was, it was a skirmish game, not really an army game. The 3rd codex was alot of fun but was a leaflet really. The 5th codex really cemented them as an army but I also loved that you could field small hero filled armies.
BTW I do love that they can field 6 HQ's. I can't wait to field 6 thunderwolf lords, 3 lone wolves and 3 single TWC units
Luckily, I just magnetized my TWC lord, so it looks like he's gonna get Krom's axe pretty soon.
Also, ripping arms off is part and parcel of the deal. I counted all my GH/BC last night and figured out which ones had BP/Bolter, etc. Should be able to make it work even without arm ripping.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and I like the idea someone had of using Wulfen models as WGPL.
Sorry, I thought Greys were 15ppm.
They still are lack luster boring marines. I laughed out loud at 2 rules for 2 rules, bro type statement. Yea Combat Squad and Scout, FNP, or Bolter Drill vs Counter Attack and Acute Senses. Amazing versus nearly worthless.
you ever try to use unbound as an argument, you're falling for GW marketing schlock. Tournaments don't use it and you lose objective secured, which is scoring now. And formations? Great, please tell me more of what used to be an option the book. Just increase the material bloat and cost to play more. That's not hurting them in the least (points to financial thread...).
Instant death is terrible. But if people aren't taking 50 pt multi-wpund models because of it, why take 200+ point models like the bear lord? You don't because it's a gateway to "having a bad time". Before, a bear lord could fight a dreadknight or wraithknight. Now he can't unless you want to gamble your snowflake. Its just making assault worse, not better.
This book feels like the "vanilla" release of wolves, much like all the releases this year. People complained that a balanced game would make it more vanilla. Rather, its sales tactics that are, minus the balance.
Bulldogging wrote: Worst part is I modeled my Thunderwolf Lord(AKA Deathwolf) with a Power Fist since..I mean...did anyone actually use Frost Axes?
I hate ripping arms off.
On a positive note, I do like his rules..mostly. I think we will be seeing more TWC after this codex, even if assault isn't ideal.
Well I have mine Thunderlords with
Clarkston: Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield, +2 Wolves
May: Wolf Claw/Power Fist, +2 Wolves
Hammond: Power Lance/Frost Axe [I am using the of the DA Terminator Pole Arm for him], +2 Wolves
The Iron Priest Stigg: Thunder Hammer and 4 Cyberwolves
TWCx5: Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield, the rest now Power Lance/Storm Shield
As someone who has stopped playing the game due to supreme dislike of the core rules, how good something is on the tabletop is much less of a concern as opposed to unit composition, wargear, special rules that reflect fluff etc. What does my SW army look like now. Overall I'm going to have to go with not too shabby. Ill miss my MOTW, but it doesn't invalidate the model that I used to represent him. I love the new detail on the dread kit and having our own dedicated flier is ace.
Jayden63 wrote: As someone who has stopped playing the game due to supreme dislike of the core rules, how good something is on the tabletop is much less of a concern as opposed to unit composition, wargear, special rules that reflect fluff etc. What does my SW army look like now. Overall I'm going to have to go with not too shabby. Ill miss my MOTW, but it doesn't invalidate the model that I used to represent him. I love the new detail on the dread kit and having our own dedicated flier is ace.
Wait. If you stopped playing the game, what does it matter what the rules are. You're just a collector now, right? So keep your MOTW in your squad.
Red Corsair wrote: Really hanging on Lone Wolves here. Won't lie, losing MoW, normal standards and several other defining traits (sagas, logans high king, behind enemy lines) hurts, but I was expecting a fair amount of damage. Grey hunters went up to load out for combat, but honestly nobody assaults my vanilla marines anymore. Shooting is basically the only way to play competitively anyway. So really they make super cheap drop troops still.
It's funny because most of what you're talking about came from the last codex and it's really a defining SW trait. Having played SW since the beginning of 3rd, we've gone through a lot of iterations and this is looking to be just another one of those.
Not really. If you came in during 3rd then you started with a codex that was a vicious backlash form the 2nd ed SW codex. While many of the rules where new to the Wolves it was rules to bring back the character of the Chapter. In that before 3rd the Wolves were a shooting army that no one... No one really wanted to get close to. Because they could lay down about the same short range fire power as normal Marines but were hands down better in melee. The trade off was a lack of long range shooting. Mostly made up of Long Fangs (who had +1 BS over Devastaters btw).
The 5th ed codex brought back that same character but truely needed some adjusting. With reguards to GHs I feel they swung it a little to far towards the 3rd rd Codex with its 17 ppmGHs who had to buy bolters for +1 ppm. A better fix would have been for GHs to lose WotW, wolf standards and bring their weapon costs in line with SMs. That way they stay roughly equal to tacticals with reguards to CQB shooting but are still a threat to assult squads in melee. While not providing long range fire support.
If you balance GH with Tactical squad and then give the tacticals more support options, long range options and better counter assult units (Skyclaw vs Assult squads). Then are you not just creating SMs -1 by design??? slightly under priced basic troops provides the Wolves with an army balance that matches the other SM's extra options.
Am I mad??? Not really. It is just a difference in design philosophy. I feel that the core of the SW army should be its GHs and not the extra toys. Where as the current rumors look to be less GHs and more toys. I'm sure the next codex will change back to under priced GH as has been the pattern.
Stonerhino wrote: It's funny because most of what you're talking about came from the last codex and it's really a defining SW trait. Having played SW since the beginning of 3rd, we've gone through a lot of iterations and this is looking to be just another one of those.
Not really. If you came in during 3rd then you started with a codex that was a vicious backlash form the 2nd ed SW codex. While many of the rules where new to the Wolves it was rules to bring back the character of the Chapter. In that before 3rd the Wolves were a shooting army that no one... No one really wanted to get close to. Because they could lay down about the same short range fire power as normal Marines but were hands down better in melee. The trade off was a lack of long range shooting. Mostly made up of Long Fangs (who had +1 BS over Devastaters btw).
Actually, as I said, I came in at the beginning of 3rd. So I saw Black book, Pamphlet, 13th company and then the changes wrought by TAS and such. That's all irrelevant. The relevant part is that saying that the things that only existed in the 5th edition codex are the defining traits is not really accurate. A defining trait would be something that has been constant throughout their iterations.
TheKbob wrote: Sorry, I thought Greys were 15ppm.
They still are lack luster boring marines. I laughed out loud at 2 rules for 2 rules, bro type statement. Yea Combat Squad and Scout, FNP, or Bolter Drill vs Counter Attack and Acute Senses. Amazing versus nearly worthless.
you ever try to use unbound as an argument, you're falling for GW marketing schlock. Tournaments don't use it and you lose objective secured, which is scoring now. And formations? Great, please tell me more of what used to be an option the book. Just increase the material bloat and cost to play more. That's not hurting them in the least (points to financial thread...).
Instant death is terrible. But if people aren't taking 50 pt multi-wpund models because of it, why take 200+ point models like the bear lord? You don't because it's a gateway to "having a bad time". Before, a bear lord could fight a dreadknight or wraithknight. Now he can't unless you want to gamble your snowflake. Its just making assault worse, not better.
This book feels like the "vanilla" release of wolves, much like all the releases this year. People complained that a balanced game would make it more vanilla. Rather, its sales tactics that are, minus the balance.
Careful, now. You'll get put on folks ignore list bringing things like this up.
Though I do have to say I like 7th better than 6th - except assaulting. That needs some work.
To me, my SW had got caught in a huge "must take" part of the armybuilding.
I know lots of people like to build an optimized list and play it over and over.
But personally, I really enjoy doing different lists and trying out a multitude of units.
This release make me not autoinclude rune priests and other pricey stuff. It also give me some new vehicles and stuff to try out.
In fact, I have to reevaluate lots of units, and redefining them in new fun ways to battle.
I guess Im the ideal GW customer, I like to get basicly all unit entries to try out once in a while;
but I think lots of the animosity between posters here are based on those different play styles: static lists and dynamic lists.
Red Corsair wrote:
Really hanging on Lone Wolves here. Won't lie, losing MoW, normal standards and several other defining traits (sagas, logans high king, behind enemy lines) hurts, but I was expecting a fair amount of damage. Grey hunters went up to load out for combat, but honestly nobody assaults my vanilla marines anymore. Shooting is basically the only way to play competitively anyway. So really they make super cheap drop troops still.
It's funny because most of what you're talking about came from the last codex and it's really a defining SW trait. Having played SW since the beginning of 3rd, we've gone through a lot of iterations and this is looking to be just another one of those.
I've played since them since 2nd, the third edition codex was a pamphlet. The first real substantial codex we have had since they changed the mechanics of 40k was the 5th ed codex. So to me, this is how they decided to define wolves. I am well aware they can retcon and change what they like, but a lot of the flavor is being lost here. Banners and MoW weren't just mechanics in game, they allowed for great modelling and themed armies. Now GH are much closer to tacs.
As I said, I don't think it's nearly as bad as some. Luckily we have the option for BP,BG CCW for example but I am nervous about what they may have done to lone wolves and Cav.
Playing them since Rouge Trader.
I loved 2nd
>10 Man Teleporting Terminators Packs with Assault Cannons and Cyclones for all.
>Long Fangs with a mix of Las-Cannons and Auto-Cannons
>Leman Russ Tanks.
The good old days.
3rd
>They removed Bjorn
>They removed Teleporting
> Removed Russ's
>Mandatory HQ per 750 Points
5th
>We got back Bjorn, but without his lighting Claw
>Gained Saga's
>x2 the Number of HQs
Now
>Bjorn Got back his Lighting Claw
>2-6 HQs >Got Teleport Back
Minor Detail there, they added the ability to use Leman Russ tanks in 3rd edition.
Stonerhino wrote: I feel that the core of the SW army should be its GHs and not the extra toys. Where as the current rumors look to be less GHs and more toys. I'm sure the next codex will change back to under priced GH as has been the pattern.
I don't see that at all, at least for me, my Core has always been Grey Hunters since 3rd and always will. Now I will be fielding more Blood Claws, now that I can afford to.
I will not be dropping Grey Hunters to take the new toys unless there is fluff about it.
Now my Core is 2 Grey Hunter Packs and I usually added 2 more Grey Hunter Pack, it will be Blood Claws now that they are more affordable.
The main changes will be for me replacing my Rifleman Dread for Bjorn [2nd HQ], or one of Ice Dreads.
I might also be using pods more to get my dreads closer quicker.
Anpu42 wrote: With the addition of Shotguns and the ability to take a Heavy Weapon I think gave them more flexibility. I think they may also fill the roll of Tactical Marines as objective holders.
Did I miss something about shotguns not being complete crap?
Anpu42 wrote: With the addition of Shotguns and the ability to take a Heavy Weapon I think gave them more flexibility. I think they may also fill the roll of Tactical Marines as objective holders.
Did I miss something about shotguns not being complete crap?
Nope some people think shotguns makes up for losing rear flanking somehow. They are utter crap. 14ppm 4+ save marines without combat squads or Obsec that eats an elite slot.
Hulksmash wrote: Anyone tempted by 90 Bloodclaws for 1080pts? Figure 120pts of upgrades and you've still got 650 in a normal list for support.
I don't know about 90, but they certainly are worth taking now.
I'd say one full squad plus a character in either a crusader or stormwolf would be fun. Expensive and risky, but fun. I'd say the crusader is actually a better transport to be honest.
Anpu42 wrote: With the addition of Shotguns and the ability to take a Heavy Weapon I think gave them more flexibility. I think they may also fill the roll of Tactical Marines as objective holders.
Did I miss something about shotguns not being complete crap?
Shotguns are 12" S4 AP- Assault 2. Not great, but if you are taking on Tau, the Double Shots is better than a Bolt Pistol. It is situational witch is better of three of the Weapons.
>Bolt Pistols: Orks or Guard or if you are planning Assaulting.
>Bolt Gun: General Duty weapon if you are not Assaulting.
>Shotguns: You want RoF over Melee Attacks.
Hulksmash wrote: Anyone tempted by 90 Bloodclaws for 1080pts? Figure 120pts of upgrades and you've still got 650 in a normal list for support.
I don't know about 90, but they certainly are worth taking now.
I'd say one full squad plus a character in either a crusader or stormwolf would be fun. Expensive and risky, but fun. I'd say the crusader is actually a better transport to be honest.
Yeah, but the stormwolf will be fun. Full squad with WGPL and a Wolf Priest in Stormwolf will be hilarious.
pretre wrote: I guess it depends on the heavies, but an inflitrating multi-melta might be somewhat useful.
IDK, with the infiltrate rules you won't be in melta range so its just single short ranged s8 shot. They can scout closer but your relying on your opponent to deploy poorly.
Hulksmash wrote: Anyone tempted by 90 Bloodclaws for 1080pts? Figure 120pts of upgrades and you've still got 650 in a normal list for support.
I don't know about 90, but they certainly are worth taking now.
I'd say one full squad plus a character in either a crusader or stormwolf would be fun. Expensive and risky, but fun. I'd say the crusader is actually a better transport to be honest.
Yeah, but the stormwolf will be fun. Full squad with WGPL and a Wolf Priest in Stormwolf will be hilarious.
I agree, I just think it's risky given it can get shot down smoking 600ish points or not come in from reserves until it's too late.
Hulksmash wrote: Anyone tempted by 90 Bloodclaws for 1080pts? Figure 120pts of upgrades and you've still got 650 in a normal list for support.
I don't know about 90, but they certainly are worth taking now.
I'd say one full squad plus a character in either a crusader or stormwolf would be fun. Expensive and risky, but fun. I'd say the crusader is actually a better transport to be honest.
Yeah, but the stormwolf will be fun. Full squad with WGPL and a Wolf Priest in Stormwolf will be hilarious.
And if you take the Landing pad you can pull off a Second Turn Assault.
Then on turn 2 Pod your Rifleman Dread, Long Fangs or Terminators.
I like putting my Land Speeders on it after whatever Flier has left it.
pretre wrote: I guess it depends on the heavies, but an inflitrating multi-melta might be somewhat useful.
I'd be surprised if they got anything beyond Missile Launcher and Heavy Bolter. Those are the only heavy weapon options for normal scouts, which we seem to be bring brought in line of.
I'm also honestly not sold on Blood Claws still. Are they still WS/BS 3?
WS3 doesn't really make a difference, they're still hitting most things on a 4+. Being hit on a 3+ by MEQ might hurt, but they can do enough damage with the huge number of attacks to mitigate that. You also get more bodies, so can absorb damage better than most MEQ.
Red Corsair wrote: 2nd turn assault sounds wishful, and now your in more for the damn pad.
The thing is, you are not buying a pad for the Flyer only. With the shields up if gives anything on the Pad a 4++ Save.
Turn One:
You go First, Move 12" then 12" Flat Out
You go second, your Stormfang has a 4++ Save. Move 12" then 12" Flat Out, Jink if you have to.
Next turn move 6" And Assault out of it.
I put my 3 Land Typhoons on it, they now have a 4++ Save.
Paradigm wrote: WS3 doesn't really make a difference, they're still hitting most things on a 4+. Being hit on a 3+ by MEQ might hurt, but they can do enough damage with the huge number of attacks to mitigate that. You also get more bodies, so can absorb damage better than most MEQ.
Paradigm wrote: WS3 doesn't really make a difference, they're still hitting most things on a 4+. Being hit on a 3+ by MEQ might hurt, but they can do enough damage with the huge number of attacks to mitigate that. You also get more bodies, so can absorb damage better than most MEQ.
They are one dimensional though. All in on assault in an edition that punishes being CC oriented. I agree at least they are cheap, the high model count is a trap I think though. The only way to get them there is with a 230-250+ point transport.
It will be fun as hell the odd time it hits something worth hitting though. Facing MSU will be annoying though.
Red Corsair wrote: 2nd turn assault sounds wishful, and now your in more for the damn pad.
The thing is, you are not buying a pad for the Flyer only. With the shields up if gives anything on the Pad a 4++ Save.
Turn One:
You go First, Move 12" then 12" Flat Out
You go second, your Stormfang has a 4++ Save. Move 12" then 12" Flat Out, Jink if you have to.
Next turn move 6" And Assault out of it.
I put my 3 Land Typhoons on it, they now have a 4++ Save.
Paradigm wrote: WS3 doesn't really make a difference, they're still hitting most things on a 4+. Being hit on a 3+ by MEQ might hurt, but they can do enough damage with the huge number of attacks to mitigate that. You also get more bodies, so can absorb damage better than most MEQ.
They are one dimensional though. All in on assault in an edition that punishes being CC oriented. I agree at least they are cheap, the high model count is a trap I think though. The only way to get them there is with a 230-250+ point transport.
It will be fun as hellthe odd time it hits something worth hitting though. Facing MSU will be annoying though.
Yes they are, especially when fighting someone thinks they are junk and then wrack of 40-50 hits.
Paradigm wrote: WS3 doesn't really make a difference, they're still hitting most things on a 4+. Being hit on a 3+ by MEQ might hurt, but they can do enough damage with the huge number of attacks to mitigate that. You also get more bodies, so can absorb damage better than most MEQ.
They are one dimensional though. All in on assault in an edition that punishes being CC oriented. I agree at least they are cheap, the high model count is a trap I think though. The only way to get them there is with a 230-250+ point transport.
It will be fun as hell the odd time it hits something worth hitting though. Facing MSU will be annoying though.
To be honest, shooting edition or not, I can see a pair of maxed out footslogging squads (the seconds coming in cheaper than the transport) making it across the board, given proper positioning and decent terrain coverage, not to mention other units taking fire off them. (pod in some GH to tear things up or run up a flank with some TWC). Assault is still a very deadly tool, and BC look to be in a very good position to do it, given the points drop, the fact babysitting them is not a necessity and the potential for outflanking with the formation.
I laugh at the folks who I know are ignoring me because ignoring facts of matters doesn't change them. Its easier to be happy when you insulate yourself from "negativity" (e.g. reality).
I'd not park your birds on skyshields. They start the game in hover, IIRC, thus 4++ or not, that's got first blood target written on it, more so if packed full of goodies. And third turn assaults otherwise are lack luster to dump 600 points into.
I see blood claws being used because they are cheaper, probably with flamers. The 3++ save dreads as distractions. Flyers with minimums squad Grey hunters, all Cron Air style and the cheapest HQ possible. None of the named ones do anything of note anymore and you can't tool up a combat master, either. The heavy slot,followed by elites, are probably is what will eat up space. If Bjorn doesnt have his negative Nancy thing, I could see podding him, too.
Relying on HQs to give units outflank randomly isn't solid enough to count on (score another point for White Scars).
Bascially, I'm not seeing a specialization pop out of wolves. DA is death wing or raven wing. The chapter tactics MA for obvious builds in vanilla. What's in Space Wolves to point at to make them mid field masters? Used to be Grey Hunters but not anymore. Now I do see them as just another marine chapter
:/
Red Corsair wrote: 2nd turn assault sounds wishful, and now your in more for the damn pad.
The thing is, you are not buying a pad for the Flyer only. With the shields up if gives anything on the Pad a 4++ Save.
Turn One:
You go First, Move 12" then 12" Flat Out
You go second, your Stormfang has a 4++ Save. Move 12" then 12" Flat Out, Jink if you have to.
Next turn move 6" And Assault out of it.
I put my 3 Land Typhoons on it, they now have a 4++ Save.
It's a flier so turn one your in reserve.
Turn 2 roll a die and hope for a 3+.
If the shields up you can't DS onto it.
Does it have DS anyway?
So yea basically it's T3 assault at the earliest.
I believe the Skyshield has a rule allowing you to start a flier on it in Stronghold Assault
I am not saying they are bad just illustrating that they are about right for what they are. They aren't amazing by any stretch. 9 outta 10 times you'll end up curb stomping something from an MSU list or GEQ and thats actually bad since you want to hide in assault. Personally I am not sure I'd go for specials in that unit as it bloats the price and increases the units assault distance. If they are shooting a vehicle something has gone horribly wrong
Paradigm wrote: WS3 doesn't really make a difference, they're still hitting most things on a 4+. Being hit on a 3+ by MEQ might hurt, but they can do enough damage with the huge number of attacks to mitigate that. You also get more bodies, so can absorb damage better than most MEQ.
They are one dimensional though. All in on assault in an edition that punishes being CC oriented. I agree at least they are cheap, the high model count is a trap I think though. The only way to get them there is with a 230-250+ point transport.
It will be fun as hell the odd time it hits something worth hitting though. Facing MSU will be annoying though.
Red Corsair wrote: 2nd turn assault sounds wishful, and now your in more for the damn pad.
The thing is, you are not buying a pad for the Flyer only. With the shields up if gives anything on the Pad a 4++ Save.
Turn One:
You go First, Move 12" then 12" Flat Out
You go second, your Stormfang has a 4++ Save. Move 12" then 12" Flat Out, Jink if you have to.
Next turn move 6" And Assault out of it.
I put my 3 Land Typhoons on it, they now have a 4++ Save.
The Skyshield Landing Pad allow you to start with one Flier to start the game on it. It can only Hover though on Turn one so you will spend 2 turns in Hover Mode.
Red Corsair wrote: 2nd turn assault sounds wishful, and now your in more for the damn pad.
The thing is, you are not buying a pad for the Flyer only. With the shields up if gives anything on the Pad a 4++ Save.
Turn One:
You go First, Move 12" then 12" Flat Out
You go second, your Stormfang has a 4++ Save. Move 12" then 12" Flat Out, Jink if you have to.
Next turn move 6" And Assault out of it.
I put my 3 Land Typhoons on it, they now have a 4++ Save.
It's a flier so turn one your in reserve.
Turn 2 roll a die and hope for a 3+.
If the shields up you can't DS onto it.
Does it have DS anyway?
So yea basically it's T3 assault at the earliest.
I believe the Skyshield has a rule allowing you to start a flier on it in Stronghold Assault
Ah good to know. Se I went and spared myself 50 bucks so now I am in the dark
TheKbob wrote: What's in Space Wolves to point at to make them mid field masters? Used to be Grey Hunters but not anymore. Now I do see them as just another marine chapter
:/
Still GH. They're more expensive, but lost none of what made them good at their core (CA and the 3 weapons/dual specials). Loss of MOTW and the changed banner hurt, but those were always add-ons in my view anyway, far from essential to how the unit worked.
Hulksmash wrote: I wonder if a WG unit can take the Standard....
Imagine a bike mounted unit with the standard. 5 Attacks on the charge. Even without 25pt Vet Bikers is scary as hell with the new Jink rules. Add a few combi's and power axes and go to town.
I wonder if (and I think you asked this previously) TWC can join other units. TWC Lord (Or Harald) with a bike WG squad? Hmm.
TheKbob wrote: Used to be Grey Hunters but not anymore. Now I do see them as just another marine chapter:/
What truly changed that? You can build them with even more mid-ranged than the last Codex. They did not loose a single "Gun" Option and with a WGPL can easily gain a Combi-Weapon.
My normal Plasma-Armed Grey Hunters just whet from 5 Plasma Shots at 12" to 7 Shots.
TheKbob wrote: What's in Space Wolves to point at to make them mid field masters? Used to be Grey Hunters but not anymore. Now I do see them as just another marine chapter
:/
Still GH. They're more expensive, but lost none of what made them good at their core (CA and the 3 weapons/dual specials). Loss of MOTW and the changed banner hurt, but those were always add-ons in my view anyway, far from essential to how the unit worked.
I don't see it. 205 pts for 10 in a rhino with two plasma. For 220, I got 10, 2 Plasma, Standard, MotW and CCW. That is a massive Nerf. With MSU being the MO of 7E, combat squading is worth its weight in gold. Acute senses is not. With the lack of close combat with Eldar and such, why assault when you can shoot or reposition? Making 10 man squads further bad.
I'd say its going to be naked five man GHs in flyers times three and flamer blood claws in Lazerbaks. The era of 10 man marine squads is dead given volume of fire and the need for greater board control.
TheKbob wrote: What's in Space Wolves to point at to make them mid field masters? Used to be Grey Hunters but not anymore. Now I do see them as just another marine chapter
:/
Still GH. They're more expensive, but lost none of what made them good at their core (CA and the 3 weapons/dual specials). Loss of MOTW and the changed banner hurt, but those were always add-ons in my view anyway, far from essential to how the unit worked.
I don't see it. 205 pts for 10 in a rhino with two plasma. For 220, I got 10, 2 Plasma, Standard, MotW and CCW. That is a massive Nerf. With MSU being the MO of 7E, combat squading is worth its weight in gold. Acute senses is not. With the lack of close combat with Eldar and such, why assault when you can shoot or reposition? Making 10 man squads further bad.
I'd say its going to be makes five man I'm flyers times three and flamer blood claws in Lazerbaks. The era of 10 man marine squads is dead given volume of fire and the need for greater board control.
15 points is a Massive(?) Nerf?
So they cost a little more, if you take CCW, witch by your statements are just a waist of points because they will die to fire before they can do anything.
The rest of the Army is much Cheaper. My Venerable Dread just dropped by 50+ points, my Speeders just dropped by like 30-50 points a piece, My rune Priest just dropped by 50 Points. if I can figure out how to get another 100 points it just bought another Grey Hunter Pack.
15 points is a Massive(?) Nerf?
So they cost a little more, if you take CCW, witch by your statements are just a waist of points because they will die to fire before they can do anything.
The rest of the Army is much Cheaper. My Venerable Dread just dropped by 50+ points, my Speeders just dropped by like 30-50 points a piece, My rune Priest just dropped by 50 Points. if I can figure out how to get another 100 points it just bought another Grey Hunter Pack.
To make the same unit is 240. Yes, when your standard troop loses efficiency, that's bad. Your method runs at 270! That's insane for troops. They have to be plentiful and efficient or extremely durable and/or fast.
Tell me how dreads, speeders or rune priests will be any good? I'd say Wolf Priests might be the go to with 6+ FNP. I will tale always on buffs versus the new crap psychic phase.
I'll watch the scene, but from a competitive standing, it seems very weak. From a fluff standing, you lose Mark of the Wulfen and gain Murderfang.... Wulfen Robot Wolverine. No thanks. And I'm anti lords of war and GW reclassifying HQs into that category. Its just a way to shoe horn in dumb rules and units, gate way to rock em sock em robots.
TheKbob wrote: What's in Space Wolves to point at to make them mid field masters? Used to be Grey Hunters but not anymore. Now I do see them as just another marine chapter
:/
Still GH. They're more expensive, but lost none of what made them good at their core (CA and the 3 weapons/dual specials). Loss of MOTW and the changed banner hurt, but those were always add-ons in my view anyway, far from essential to how the unit worked.
I don't see it. 205 pts for 10 in a rhino with two plasma. For 220, I got 10, 2 Plasma, Standard, MotW and CCW. That is a massive Nerf. With MSU being the MO of 7E, combat squading is worth its weight in gold. Acute senses is not. With the lack of close combat with Eldar and such, why assault when you can shoot or reposition? Making 10 man squads further bad.
I'd say its going to be naked five man GHs in flyers times three and flamer blood claws in Lazerbaks. The era of 10 man marine squads is dead given volume of fire and the need for greater board control.
To be honest, the special weapon cost going up was neither unexpected nor unwarranted; I don't really see how one can complain about paying the same price as every other MEQ army for those weapons. A plasmagun at 15 points it still good, as is a melta for 10.
As for the CCW, that allows you to gear the squad more for certain roles. With the last codex, you pay for what you're not going to use in some cases, such as against armies you're better off shooting (Orks, Nids) or can beat in CC without the extra attacks (Tau, most Eldar, most Guard), so now you can save those points if assault isn't your preferred style.
I will grant you that losing MOTW and the banner is undoubtedly a loss, but can actually go some way to saving the points you pay for more expensive GH. 6th and 7th have awarded specialisation, and this codex really does allow you to gear your GH for specific roles.
Razorback lists will depend on if the got the point bump the SM ones did.
Honestly the win in this codex is in the elites and fast attack. And as long as Rune Priests can take Telepathy I'm going to be a happy camper. If not then Biomancy might be the winner for me with them. Boosting units of GH's or BC's in pods.
Razorback lists will depend on if the got the point bump the SM ones did.
Honestly the win in this codex is in the elites and fast attack. And as long as Rune Priests can take Telepathy I'm going to be a happy camper. If not then Biomancy might be the winner for me with them. Boosting units of GH's or BC's in pods.
I'm very eager to see what disciplines they get and how much they cost.
Anpu42- I am not disagreeing with you about some point reductions, but my thoughts are this and maybe they are what TheKBob is saying- even with the reduction, dreads, especially non shooting dreads arent good in a competitive environment. Non one took Ven Dreads in any sort of competitive list the last few years. Even at 145, I think the Ven Dread is too expensive. Whether it be on the first roll or the 4th, he will fail a 3+ and blow up. Speeders- if speeders were so very good, you would see them all over every SM list out there, you don't, so just because there is a point drop, doesn't make them good. Rune Priests, massively overcosted once the Chaos SM codex came out and just got worse. I stopped using mine awhile ago. I still think at level 2, they arent worth it, 5 dice on avg per turn and to cast a WC 2 spell you need 5 dice. They don't fight well in CC so they are average at best. I guess my biggest point is this, SW have not been competitive in 6th or 7th, and with the rules being weighted towards shooting, this codex appears to do nothing to fix them, close combat units went down in price and GH, LF appear to have gotten a bit more expensive and WG got worse now that you cant use mix armor and get more of the Heavy Weapons. We needed a platform with some weight of fire, I was hoping for a LR Executioner with lots of mid str 7 shots to help compensate, but unfortunately we didnt get it. We got a cool looking flyer in my opinion,. but in game terms it is too expensive, more expensive than the Storm Raven and you don't see them in competitive games/tournaments because of the risk involved in sinking 600 pts in a unit and having it come on late or get shot down. I agree with TheKBob, I think a Land Raider is safer and they aren't even viewed as a competitive choice, or you would see more SM players use them- I guess Iron Hands would make them better.
Agreed. As fast as they are a turn 2 (maybe turn one if your opponent moves to close) charge is possibly. And they deal some damage. I think it's kinda cool. They are pretty comparable to a similar pointed unit of WG on bikes which is nice to see that kind of resiliency around the list.
As for the CCW, that allows you to gear the squad more for certain roles. With the last codex, you pay for what you're not going to use in some cases, such as against armies you're better off shooting (Orks, Nids) or can beat in CC without the extra attacks (Tau, most Eldar, most Guard), so now you can save those points if assault isn't your preferred style.
I will grant you that losing MOTW and the banner is undoubtedly a loss, but can actually go some way to saving the points you pay for more expensive GH. 6th and 7th have awarded specialisation, and this codex really does allow you to gear your GH for specific roles.
That's list tailoring, though. Before we had the Emperor's Executioners. The tacticals are supposed to be the best. At 15ppm, that justified this. Making them the same, or worse compared to vanilla marines, doesn't exemplify this. Wolves made up for it by putting rookies in all the other slots that other chapters do better (assault, jump, bikes, etc.).
Now its Grey Marines with Wolf Toys. The Grey Hunter needed no change. Id you don't track the competitive seen, they arent even on it. Now they definitely won't be because that's how good combat squads are. That free weapon went a long way due to this.
As for the CCW, that allows you to gear the squad more for certain roles. With the last codex, you pay for what you're not going to use in some cases, such as against armies you're better off shooting (Orks, Nids) or can beat in CC without the extra attacks (Tau, most Eldar, most Guard), so now you can save those points if assault isn't your preferred style.
I will grant you that losing MOTW and the banner is undoubtedly a loss, but can actually go some way to saving the points you pay for more expensive GH. 6th and 7th have awarded specialisation, and this codex really does allow you to gear your GH for specific roles.
That's list tailoring, though. Before we had the Emperor's Executioners. The tacticals are supposed to be the best. At 15ppm, that justified this. Making them the same, or worse compared to vanilla marines, doesn't exemplify this. Wolves made up for it by putting rookies in all the other slots that other chapters do better (assault, jump, bikes, etc.).
Now its Grey Marines with Wolf Toys. The Grey Hunter needed no change. Id you don't track the competitive seen, they arent even on it. Now they definitely won't be because that's how good combat squads are. That free weapon went a long way due to this.
It's not list tailoring, it's army/meta tailoring, which if you know your meta and opponents is pretty much impossible not to do at a subconscious level. If you see a lot of shooting-heavy infantry lists and make the choice to take the extra CCW and a pair of flamers, that's not list tailoring, just a tactical choice.
on
I do have to admit I have been seeing a lot of people unhappy.
Unhappy about Space Wolves being brought in line with all of the other Space Marines.
The Complaints as I am seeing them: We are now paying for Weapons we used to get for FREE that no other Marine got for Free.
Some of the really neat Wargear is now gone, it sucks, but now we don't have to pay for Situational Wargear any more.
Sagas are now Warlord Traits, who did not see this coming, it is not like we are paying Points for them, They are Free for everyone. Heck half the time I forget to use them.
They [GW] Addressed most of the issues everyone had with Codex: Space Wolves. Now they did not addressed them like YOU would have, but they did.
Once I get my hand on my Codex, I will build some of my old list and most likely like when the C: SW, 6th Ed and 7th Ed came out I will have to make some adjustments both with modeling and play style.
It looks though like it will be a good Codex: Space Wolves and probably a Good Codex in General. It is not to Powerful or To weak.
off
It's not list tailoring, it's army/meta tailoring, which if you know your meta and opponents is pretty much impossible not to do at a subconscious level. If you see a lot of shooting-heavy infantry lists and make the choice to take the extra CCW and a pair of flamers, that's not list tailoring, just a tactical choice.
Anyway, that's a tangent.
Its a tangent, but its alsoy view of the book (and 40k). A good TAC list should do well regardless of play area or meta. I list built with no single store or player in mind always. It madey lists resllient. At the core was always four to six full squads of Grey Hunters while marine players took scouts (or white scars tacs). 7E is a different story, but not enough has changed to invalidate the overall strategy except more resilliebt vehicles on the higher Av end and objective secured MSU being king.
I dislike flyers (model size, dollar cost, and rules), so seeing Wolves move that way makes me upset.
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Anpu42 wrote: on
I do have to admit I have been seeing a lot of people unhappy.
Unhappy about Space Wolves being brought in line with all of the other Space Marines.
The Complaints as I am seeing them: We are now paying for Weapons we used to get for FREE that no other Marine got for Free.
Some of the really neat Wargear is now gone, it sucks, but now we don't have to pay for Situational Wargear any more.
Sagas are now Warlord Traits, who did not see this coming, it is not like we are paying Points for them, They are Free for everyone. Heck half the time I forget to use them.
They [GW] Addressed most of the issues everyone had with Codex: Space Wolves. Now they did not addressed them like YOU would have, but they did.
Once I get my hand on my Codex, I will build some of my old list and most likely like when the C: SW, 6th Ed and 7th Ed came out I will have to make some adjustments both with modeling and play style.
It looks though like it will be a good Codex: Space Wolves and probably a Good Codex in General. It is not to Powerful or To weak.
off
Based on this, it seems like you misunderstand my posts entirely and I'm talking past you and not with. If you don't understand the changes to Grey Hunters fundamentally, then I can't help you. Having cheaper points costs for mediocre units just means I can bring more of them.
70ppm SS Thunder wolves sounds interesting. Did their LD go up? If not, they still need an expensive baby sitter.
Paradigm wrote: I will grant you that losing MOTW and the banner is undoubtedly a loss, but can actually go some way to saving the points you pay for more expensive GH.
GHs nerfed, but that's okay, because the things you can't buy any longer will pay for your nerfing!
I know you're not justifying it, but rather a "silver lining" sort of thing, but it just read funnily in my head.
As to the codex, I'm not ready to write it off the way I could Nids or Orks; though I admit I sense the same sort of "uninspired randomly drop stuff and change what doesn't need changing" funk that permeated Orks and Nids. Chooser of the Slain? Gone. Mark of the Wulfen? Gone. GH Banner? Gone. OBEL? Gone. Sagas? Gone. (No, calling Warlord Traits "Sagas" doesn't count.) Fenrisian Wolves? Gone? I mean, was that really a needed cut? Lots of "Space Wolf" things just cut with no rhyme or reason. Seems to be the order of the day with 7e codexes thusfar.
Grey Hunters taking a hit wasn't entirely unexpected. I'll suck it up and pay the 2ppm for my CCWs back, and the extra cost for special weapons. I do agree with Kbob that Grey Hunters came down in power vs Tac Squads with the meta change to MSU. We can't combat squad, so the double special vs. double + heavy isn't really as big a factor as it used to be. Getting the extra Plasma Pistol and PW/PF is nice though, and I'm sure plenty of Iron Warriors will think long and hard about switching to SW rules to get their Terminator squad leaders back.
Dreads coming down in price is nice, especially with the survivability boost walkers/vehicles got in 7th. I'm still not sure venedreads will be all that great, and I can't frankly see the use of the Axe/Shield dread at all. It's not like it's a Wraith* that gets shooting in addition to its melee boost from the weapon. Overall I'll probably stick with my Podding dread w/ MM+PF/HF.
Wolf Scouts got kicked in the nuts hard. Losing OBEL doesn't make up for their cheaper cost, since it basically removes their primary use: nuking vehicle back armor. They probably should have moved to troops, since they're no longer 0-1 and frankly aren't really worth an elite slot as of yet. Although I guess it's not like elites are crowded...
Blood Claws are still 'meh' to me, even at 12ppm. Sure, their 4 attacks each on the charge sounds awesome, but it's not like assault is all that great in 7th (barring Waaaghing orks being able to run+charge). If you want any reliable chance of them hitting a target you're looking at another 200+ for a transport, which is very "eggs all in a basket". We'll see though. I'll give them a shot, if nothing else to get my models off the shelf.
And yet, despite all that, I'm still pumped for this release. Grey Hunters are still good solid troops. Thunderwolves are still dangerous (I think). My Wolf Lord will still shred face, and my Long Fangs are still splitting fire. We have yet to see what pops up in the supplement also, so there's still room for some surprises. (And if Waaagh! Ghazgkull is any indication, the supplement may contain some sweet formations and new relics.)
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Anpu42 wrote: They [GW] Addressed most of the issues everyone had with Codex: Space Wolves. Now they did not addressed them like YOU would have, but they did.
Let's be real: GW addressed "most of the issues" non Space Wolf players had with Codex: Space Wolves. I'm not sure any Space Wolf player has ever said "Man, I sure wish my Wolf Scouts didn't have OBEL and I'm sure hating having all these optional options!"
My issue is the way GW went about correcting the issues.
Instead of keeping the unique options and addressing the issues and making them balanced, whether it be rule alterations or point adjustments they did a blanket delete.
I frankly don't really see the reason why the new wolves simply cant be rolled into the main spacemarine codex, as they stand, with a small supplement to fill the gap. Thats what they are doing with everything else now.
They are worse than marines because they cost more and don't benefit from combat squads. Acute senses is fluffy, but generally worthless. Counter attack would be chapter tactics, thus free at 14ppm.
Literally everything about them got worse. I expect this book to be not seen on the competitive circuits as "Space Marines do it better.". Rune Priests are just bog standard libbys. We lost our beat stick HQ option. And many other things got bland. The Flyer is nice, finally, but ugly as sin. Dreads are still dreads, terrible
Well let's see
Space Marines: Ultramarines for reference
Same stats
Chapter Tactics and Combat Squads vs Acute Senses and Counterattack. Maybe in your opinion they aren't fair but it is in fact a fair trade. 2 rules for 2 rules. Just because Acute Senses and Outflank arn't used in competitive or your meta, doesn't mean it should be free. These cancel out.
Both have Bolter, BP, Grenades and PA. Grey Hunters have CCW which bumps their price. They are now externally balanced.
But wait, if they are balanced, how come SM get Scouts as troops, that can take Storms? And how come SM get Centurions and Storm Talons? It is ridiculous to look at things in a vacuum which is what you are doing. C:SM has way more shooting elements than we do. They have more options in general. So why isnt okay if GH are 1 point better than they cost? Especially when C:SM can choose their chapter traits, whereas GH get 2 that are situational at best.
Ok, so to start, both SW and SM get the "new recruits" as troops. The difference is that SW newbs are Blood Claws and wear PA, and SM ones are Neophyte scouts. As to why they don't use Storms, probably the whole "boots on the ground" thing. These are very odd wolves you have to remember who are anti-social loners. So who knows what they think like.
Stormtalons? You have 2 other Gunships. Different ones because the SW don't get on with everyone else. In terms of fluff these Gunships are far superior having more, bigger and better guns and transport capacity, so a Stormtalon is redundant.
Centurions? Why would they use them? Centurions are heavily specialised tools. Sure, SW don't do Codex but Centurions are best suited to Assault Squads and Devastators for sieges simply by nature. Assault Squads in SW, AKA, Blood/Sky/Swiftclaws...are noobs. You gonna put your Ultramarine scouts in one? Didn't think so. Long Fangs in Centurions would be great and fluffy and awesome but I guess there's too little of them?
The only way to determine if GH are balanced vs their Vanilla counterpart is to compare them straight up. You start factoring in the rest of the hundreds and thousands of possible combinations, dice rolls and opponents and you have more variables than can sanely be calculated.
Compared to a basic 10 man Tactical Squad with no upgrades vs a GH squad with no upgrades, they even out. The Chapter Tactics and Combat Squads are rules which even out with Acute Senses and Counterattack. Your meta or any other meta doesn't matter. This is on paper and points tallies for everyone. They have the same gear, same everything, same cost. Only difference is that the SM squad has a character. If we upgrade him to a Vet Sergeant with Chainsword and upgrade a GH to WGPL, they are identical.
Now give GHCCW each. They now have an additional attack. You must make them more expensive.
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Triszin wrote: My issue is the way GW went about correcting the issues.
Instead of keeping the unique options and addressing the issues and making them balanced, whether it be rule alterations or point adjustments they did a blanket delete.
I frankly don't really see the reason why the new wolves simply cant be rolled into the main spacemarine codex, as they stand, with a small supplement to fill the gap. Thats what they are doing with everything else now.
More money. Sure, they could roll both BA and SW in at this point but its honestly more profitable to have seperate books.
Example A (BA and SW rolled in)
Say a person collects SM. Buys codex. £35. Plus model expenses.
He decides he wants to play SW as well. Proxies his Tacticals and Assaults and whatnot (paint makes no difference to models as long as Wargear is correct), picks up a few SW units like TWC and Logan.
Then wants BA too. Gets Death Company and lets it at that. No added cost for getting new Codex.
Example B (seperate books)
Person collects Marines. Buys codex. £35.
Then wanta SW too. Proxies his models because wargear same and paint no difference etc. Buys Codex and a few TWC and Logan. £30 plus models.
Then wants BA, so gets Codex and Death Company. £20 - £30 depending on whether its a 7th Ed BA Codex or the 5th Ed one. Plus DC cost.
In both cases he must buy models so the model cost remains the same. However in Example B GW have grossed an additional £50-60 before expenses and tax.
Are you really trying to compare units in a codex by fluff? Yeah the boots on the ground thing that really isnt a thing anymore since they can deepstrike now and wolfguard can take jump packs? No that ship has sailed, there is no more fluff of SW fighting with their feet on the ground as Russ intended. It was all fictional anyways for the codexes- I have never read any of that in the Horus Heresy novels. Storm Ravens actually hold more than either Wolf ship as they carry a dread as well so your logic is faulty there too.
My point is this- you take one army that has little shooting vs another army that has lots, the army that has little shooting should have an advantage over the shooting army with their core troops, you want them to be equal and keep their shooting advantage? I don't understand your thinking.
If you want the marines to be identical except chapter traits, then why have separate codices? Grey Hunters aren't called tactical marines for a reason. Their fluff was always that they are better and reflected as such for a long time.
If you're saying that combat squads plus White Scars, Salamanders, Ultramarines, or Iron Hands chapter tactics are equivalents to Counter Attack (situational, not in my control) and Acute senses (nearly worthless), then you aren't even looking at it from game design at all. Hint, they aren't equal and the GH special rules are bad in comparison.
Copy and paste is the laziest form of game balance. Since GW obviously cannot manage their game, they'd rather make everything shallow and bland instead of investing the proper game management to make each faction feel unique while offering strengths and weaknesses versus sameness.
And again, Grey Hunters weren't game breaking. They were good, as they should be. Now they are grey marines
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pretre wrote: And their SS are only 15 pts. So 55 for a TWC with a 3 plus plus
Are they still W1?
Just notices Arjac got the must accept and issue challenges too. So instead of making it a fun thing to do, it feels like GW saying "please use these rules, come on... No? Well we'll make you!"
sturguard wrote: Are you really trying to compare units in a codex by fluff? Yeah the boots on the ground thing that really isnt a thing anymore since they can deepstrike now and wolfguard can take jump packs? No that ship has sailed, there is no more fluff of SW fighting with their feet on the ground as Russ intended. It was all fictional anyways for the codexes- I have never read any of that in the Horus Heresy novels. Storm Ravens actually hold more than either Wolf ship as they carry a dread as well so your logic is faulty there too.
My point is this- you take one army that has little shooting vs another army that has lots, the army that has little shooting should have an advantage over the shooting army with their core troops, you want them to be equal and keep their shooting advantage? I don't understand your thinking.
Because SW troops are better at CC. Doesn't matter if shooting is better in competitive meta, your meta, my meta, or anyone's. Because they are not written for metas. They are simply written and left for the players to decide what's strong or not.
Stormraven Dreadnoughts is seperate from the transport capacity. Stormwolf carries more than a Stormraven with similar number of weapons. Stormfang Gunship carries less but with more and better guns. The pay off for the Stormraven is that it can carry a Dreadnought and is slightly cheaper. Also, you sais Stormtalon, not Raven, so my logic isn't faulty. Yours is because you think the studip care for your meta or competitiveness. No, they write a unit to reflect the fluff and sometimes ends up competitive or not.
As for the Wolf Guard thingy and DS and JP, chalk it up to the fact they are Veterans and must do whatever it takes to get the job done, and if that means flying then so be it. Wolf Scouts on the other hand are loners who do things their way and their way only, unless it is critical to do it the Wolf Lord/Grimnar's way.
The Chapter Tactics and Combat Squads are rules which even out with Acute Senses and Counterattack.
This is seriously the most laughable garbage I have ever seen. We are all dumber for reading this.
Acute Senses does nothing for everything but Wolf Scouts, unless we use our craptastical formation that gives units a CHANCE of getting Outflank, and a crappy chance at that. Saying it is on the level of Combat Squads is laughable, and comparing it to the multi-part Chapter Tactics is beyond abject stupidity. Throwing Counter Attack together with Acute Senses still doesn't begin to approach Chapter Tactics even if Acute Senses was worth a crap (which it isn't).
Seriously. The only way in which they are comparable is in rule count, and only then if we ignore the fact that Chapter Tactics is multi-part. How you can even begin to suggest these "even out" is beyond me.
The Chapter Tactics and Combat Squads are rules which even out with Acute Senses and Counterattack.
This is seriously the most laughable garbage I have ever seen. We are all dumber for reading this.
Acute Senses does nothing for everything but Wolf Scouts, unless we use our craptastical formation that gives units a CHANCE of getting Outflank, and a crappy chance at that. Saying it is on the level of Combat Squads is laughable, and comparing it to the multi-part Chapter Tactics is beyond abject stupidity. Throwing Counter Attack together with Acute Senses still doesn't begin to approach Chapter Tactics even if Acute Senses was worth a crap (which it isn't).
Seriously. The only way in which they are comparable is in rule count, and only then if we ignore the fact that Chapter Tactics is multi-part. How you can even begin to suggest these "even out" is beyond me.
The rules are not equally competitive but they have a use in their own right. Just because they arn't used MUCH doesn't make them useLESS. No, clearly not on the level of usefulNESS of either Chapter Tactics or Combat Squads, but it still has a use, that simply isn't used much by the players of tournaments. Some other players in beer and pretzels meta may find it really good.
Chapter tactic's being multipart is canceled out by the limitations it imposes. No Lysander leading IHTH/SS Termies in a IWND Land Raider. At least when the book was made. Its not a restrictiom many see as an issue but the restriction is there regardlesz.
How does "Acute Senses" have a use in its own right, when everything but Wolf Scouts lacks the literal only application that Acute Senses has: Outflank? Answer? It doesn't! That's not the same as a Salamander player not getting to use the "reroll wounds on flamers" by not taking flamers; that is a conscious choice. We have literally no way to guarantee anything but Wolf Scouts can use that rule. It's a design holdover from the last codex is all. Only instead of letting Space Wolves keep the rule content (ignoring night fight, which is what Acute Senses originally did), they kept the name that gives them... bupkiss.
Again, this has nothing to do with meta. What I'm saying has literally 0 to do with meta, but rather rules interactions and codex design. It's a screw up, plain and simple.
Chapter Tactics has 0 limitations it "imposes". Bolter Drill and Siege Masters function for Imperial Fists 100% of the time on units that can take advantage of them. That is, all devastators and centurion devastators get the Tank Hunters from Siege Masters. All bolt weapons rerolls those '1's. For Space Wolves, there is no way to guarantee Acute Senses. None. Because the majority of the time, your units will NOT have the ability to use it.
Acute Senses is a non issue. It should not even be factored into the cost of any unit except Wolf Scouts.
My Salamanders can buy a Flamer if I want to use their Chapter Tactics. I get free Mastercraft on my Characters. I can't even guarantee that my characters will have Saga of the Hunter anymore, because sagas are just another name for Warlord Traits, which are randomly determined. There is literally nothing in the Space Wolf codex that balances Chapter Tactics. Nothing. Suggesting otherwise, well, I just don't even know.
TheKbob wrote: Their fluff was always that they are better and reflected as such for a long time.
I remember, even in 2e Wolves got extra WS (BS for Long Fangs) over other marines. And it never made any sense. All marines train insanely hard, it doesn't make sense, that one chapter's troops are just plain better than everyone else's.
And of course, if you give the GH extra weapons, then they're better than Tacticals. And yes, then they cost more, but that's how point systems are supposed to work: better things cost more points.
TheKbob wrote: If you want the marines to be identical except chapter traits, then why have separate codices? "
Speaking as a Space Wolves player, there shouldn't be a separate codex.
Grey Hunters should be a Tactical Squad with a Chapter Trait applied that allows them to take close combat weapons on top of their bolter and pistol in exchange for the option to take a heavy weapon, and another that gives them Counter Attack. Done.
TheKbob wrote: If you want the marines to be identical except chapter traits, then why have separate codices? "
Speaking as a Space Wolves player, there shouldn't be a separate codex.
Grey Hunters should be a Tactical Squad with a Chapter Trait applied that allows them to take close combat weapons on top of their bolter and pistol in exchange for the option to take a heavy weapon, and another that gives them Counter Attack. Done.
Agreed - have an exalt.
With all the streamlining GW has done, I'm still surprised at how many loyalist SM chapters get their own book.
streamdragon wrote: How does "Acute Senses" have a use in its own right, when everything but Wolf Scouts lacks the literal only application that Acute Senses has: Outflank? Answer? It doesn't! That's not the same as a Salamander player not getting to use the "reroll wounds on flamers" by not taking flamers; that is a conscious choice. We have literally no way to guarantee anything but Wolf Scouts can use that rule. It's a design holdover from the last codex is all. Only instead of letting Space Wolves keep the rule content (ignoring night fight, which is what Acute Senses originally did), they kept the name that gives them... bupkiss.
Again, this has nothing to do with meta. What I'm saying has literally 0 to do with meta, but rather rules interactions and codex design. It's a screw up, plain and simple.
Chapter Tactics has 0 limitations it "imposes". Bolter Drill and Siege Masters function for Imperial Fists 100% of the time on units that can take advantage of them. That is, all devastators and centurion devastators get the Tank Hunters from Siege Masters. All bolt weapons rerolls those '1's. For Space Wolves, there is no way to guarantee Acute Senses. None. Because the majority of the time, your units will NOT have the ability to use it.
Acute Senses is a non issue. It should not even be factored into the cost of any unit except Wolf Scouts.
My Salamanders can buy a Flamer if I want to use their Chapter Tactics. I get free Mastercraft on my Characters. I can't even guarantee that my characters will have Saga of the Hunter anymore, because sagas are just another name for Warlord Traits, which are randomly determined. There is literally nothing in the Space Wolf codex that balances Chapter Tactics. Nothing. Suggesting otherwise, well, I just don't even know.
Except that there is a way for ANY unit to have it. Its not guarenteed due to all this randomness but the use is there. You can use the Formation, which GW are pushing for, or get Saga of the Hunter for stuff like TWC. There is a way to do it just not guarenteed.
Chapter tactics prevents the mixture of different chapters' and characters. This also has an effect on army selection. Your salamanders will focus on Flamers meaning they lack long range. Your White Scars will be Biker heavy, not a lot of Terminators or Centurions. Your IF will be heavy on Devs and DevCents. Your IH will be vehicle heavy. These can be issues for some people.
All SW can have the potential for outflank. They pay for that privilege. SM pay for the potential to specialise in one Tactic in lieu of another.
Answer me this, what would you price GH as? 13pts? 12? 14 with CCW base?
Just as some SM tactics are worse than others DUE ENTIRELY TO META such as Raven Guard and Black Templars which favour assault units, SW have a "Chapter Tactic" which gives them Counter Attack and Acute Senses.
TheKbob wrote: Their fluff was always that they are better and reflected as such for a long time.
I remember, even in 2e Wolves got extra WS (BS for Long Fangs) over other marines. And it never made any sense. All marines train insanely hard, it doesn't make sense, that one chapter's troops are just plain better than everyone else's.
And of course, if you give the GH extra weapons, then they're better than Tacticals. And yes, then they cost more, but that's how point systems are supposed to work: better things cost more points.
No, if they were in the same codex, that'd be true. There's game balance and codex balance. You use points to create codex balance and rules for game balance. Where the army makes profits on Grey Hunters, they'd have losses elsewhere. Add this to further restrictions, such as a force org, and you get game balance.
If what you are saying was applied, Wolves would need to be cheaper because of the discussion of their special rules that are lacking in comparison to vanilla marines .
Finally, Wolves are legion. Born on a death planet of viking nomads. They are the emperor's executioners tasked to kill forces that fall out line. They do not follow the codex astartes and are , per the fluff, the best bad asses around. Grey Hunters are called that for a reason... They are seasoned veterans themselves hunting anyone or thing not approved by the light of the Emperor. Russ might have hated the rules, but was loyal to the bitter end.
To have GHs reduced to crappy Grey marines is an insult to the fluff and the army. Its bad.
And whoever said Wolf Lords are like SM captians, unless a retcon happened, they are Chapter Masters. Remember, they are legion strength because Russ gave the middle finger to Guilliman after their only founding went ballistic.
TheKbob wrote: If you want the marines to be identical except chapter traits, then why have separate codices? "
Speaking as a Space Wolves player, there shouldn't be a separate codex.
Grey Hunters should be a Tactical Squad with a Chapter Trait applied that allows them to take close combat weapons on top of their bolter and pistol in exchange for the option to take a heavy weapon, and another that gives them Counter Attack. Done.
Agreed - have an exalt.
With all the streamlining GW has done, I'm still surprised at how many loyalist SM chapters get their own book.
There already is. Its a FW Chapter Tactic for the Carcharadons. Alongside armywide Rage, it give Tactical Squads the option to swap Bolters for Chainswords for free or take them in addition for 1ppm. Before anyone goes on about how this relates to GH and all, its a FW book so its a different design team.
Also, I made a post in the GK rumour thread detailing why its like that. As you'd expect, profit.
No, if they were in the same codex, that'd be true. There's game balance and codex balance. You use points to create codex balance and rules for game balance. Where the army makes profits on Grey Hunters, they'd have losses elsewhere. Add this to further restrictions, such as a force org, and you get game balance.
No, I absolutely disagree; especially in this era of allies and unbound lists you must balance units against units and not only the army as a whole. Now, whether Space Wolves as a whole are competitive remains to be seen. However, if they aren't, then it is not because of the Grey Hunters (they're appropriately costed) it is because their other units are lacking (I suspect this will not be the case and the Wolves will do just fine.)
Finally, Wolves are legion. Born on a death planet of viking nomads. They are the emperor's executioners tasked to kill forces that fall out line. They do not follow the codex astartes and are , per the fluff, the best bad asses around. Grey Hunters are called that for a reason... They are seasoned veterans themselves hunting anyone or thing not approved by the light of the Emperor. Russ might have hated the rules, but was loyal to the bitter end.
To have GHs reduced to crappy Grey marines is an insult to the fluff and the army. Its bad.
And whoever said Wolf Lords are like SM captians, unless a retcon happened, they are Chapter Masters. Remember, they are legion strength because Russ gave the middle finger to Guilliman after their only founding went ballistic.
Oh please! Every Chapter's fluff says that they're the most badass little snowflakes bar none. You cannot use that to justify that the army should be better than the others. If we would do that (and believed Ward) we should give Ultramarines +1 to every stat.
GH having higher Ws in 2nd always made sense to me because of 2 things...
1. The whole curse of the wulfen thing making them more animalistic and prone to fighting up close. A new recruit SM starts as a scout and works his way to tactical. A new SW recruit gets turned into a raging idiot who has to bring it under control to become a GH. So there's a natural propensity to fight up close built in to their geneseed.
2. The chapter as a whole places more emphasis on close combat prowess, so SW would spend more time training in such disciplines, more time fighting and wrestling among themselves and so on.
The balance to this would be raise their Ws and lower their Bs, but to lower their Bs would bring them down to regular human level, they obviously can shoot better than a regular human. It's a conundrum created because aside from great heroes, the entirety of human capacity has to be summed up by either 2 (trained but not well trained), 3 (well trained), 4 (extremely well trained) and 5 (freakishly skilled).
If 40k didn't use a D6 based system, it would allow SW to be better in combat and worse at shooting without making them as crap as regular humans. Instead, the way to try and balance it is to not give SW as good shooting options in the weapons department to show they don't have as much propensity for shooting. Of course the problem with that is that special weapons are typically more useful than heavy weapons on Tactical marines. Was it 3rd edition that only let them take 1 special weapon but 2 power weapons, or did I dream that? Either way, that seems like the better solution.
Also, with the current rules, is there really any benefit to combat squads? You can just take units of 5 and when you run out of Troop slots, start a fresh FOC.
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insaniak wrote: Indeed. Let's move the game balance discussion to elsewhere and leave this thread for discussing the upcoming releases, please.
Doh, sorry, I wrote my response while you were posting this. I'll stop, I promise, lol.
There had better be Wulfen, or I've got a bunch of squads I can't use properly. Most of my Grey Hunters contain 10 men, a Wulfen, two special weapons, a Wolf Standard, and a power fist. If they can no longer take the Wulfen or the standard, they are reduced to 8 men which means no second special weapon. Now all my grey hunters are reduced to 7 men! :(
Kavish wrote: There had better be Wulfen, or I've got a bunch of squads I can't use properly. Most of my Grey Hunters contain 10 men, a Wulfen, two special weapons, a Wolf Standard, and a power fist. If they can no longer take the Wulfen or the standard, they are reduced to 8 men which means no second special weapon. Now all my grey hunters are reduced to 7 men! :(
You can still you all of them.
The Wulfen could make good Grey Hunters
The Standard Bearers can make a great WGPL
You can still take the Power Fist for normal Grey Hunters.
Kavish wrote: There had better be Wulfen, or I've got a bunch of squads I can't use properly. Most of my Grey Hunters contain 10 men, a Wulfen, two special weapons, a Wolf Standard, and a power fist. If they can no longer take the Wulfen or the standard, they are reduced to 8 men which means no second special weapon. Now all my grey hunters are reduced to 7 men! :(
You can still you all of them.
The Wulfen could make good Grey Hunters
The Standard Bearers can make a great WGPL
You can still take the Power Fist for normal Grey Hunters.
If it's the old Wulfen models, they look nothing like Grey Hunters, having a bolt pistol at most.
Anpu42 wrote: So Grey Hunters got more expensive, there are still better than any other Tactical Squad out there and we should be paying for that.
It will also give one less thing for those Non-Wolves out there to whine about.
They are worse than marines because they cost more and don't benefit from combat squads. Acute senses is fluffy, but generally worthless. Counter attack would be chapter tactics, thus free at 14ppm.
Literally everything about them got worse. I expect this book to be not seen on the competitive circuits as "Space Marines do it better.". Rune Priests are just bog standard libbys. We lost our beat stick HQ option. And many other things got bland. The Flyer is nice, finally, but ugly as sin. Dreads are still dreads, terrible.
I don't see this book going anywhere. It deleted fluff and army composition. Its the same format and layout as orks, which is bad. So not much to be excited about. They didn't screw up Lone Wolves, yay!
so wait. SW lose EW on characters? damn shame, my chaos lords smile with glee at SW coming to THAT party.
your unit doesnt get combat squads? again... CSM says HI.
Score a flyer that makes the current helldrake look lame
then we can add that you STILL get everything that a SM chapter gets over CSM.
and did i see you can re roll that warlord trait?
EDIT: and ONE character is TOLD he has to accept and issue challanges... every sarg and better in my book has to.... its daft, but youll get no sympathy from CSM.
i could come up with a long and sundry list. but lets say id consider using this book as a counts as because your sure gonna be doing it better than we ever have.
I don't know about doom and gloom. So much as just bleh its boring. Not to say there isn't some doom and gloom. But I believe most people are just not that interested. None of the Special Characters seem special other than Logan, who is over the top in a lame way. The few things that could have been inspiring just aren't. Murderfang a close combat named dread, This guy could have been amazing, but no, just murder this murder that and yeah we forgot his name because we just don't care. Shield/Axe Dread looks great but the rules are lackluster and bland. Characters got cheaper, but lost any flavor. Psychic powers seem lame for the most part.
ausYenLoWang wrote: haha have you SEEN our warlord traits... the codex ones. there is 2 that on average are decent. D3 infiltrate. and PE marines.
TBH i did miss that in the BRB i thought it was a rule being given to SW so they could try again for their sagas. so my bad.
You know, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who read the army composition part of the BRB.
does CAD apply to using their own FOC, or the FOC supplied in the BRB? because the modified chart in the codex and the different bonus' for using it would seem to apply as well.
ausYenLoWang wrote: haha have you SEEN our warlord traits... the codex ones. there is 2 that on average are decent. D3 infiltrate. and PE marines.
TBH i did miss that in the BRB i thought it was a rule being given to SW so they could try again for their sagas. so my bad.
You know, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who read the army composition part of the BRB.
does CAD apply to using their own FOC, or the FOC supplied in the BRB? because the modified chart in the codex and the different bonus' for using it would seem to apply as well.
I strongly suggest you to read the relevant part of the BRB, because your question does not even make sense. Army is build out of different types of detachments, FOC is an attributed of a detachment. CAD is a type of detachment. The special SW 6 HQ detachment is a type of detachment. Only units that are part of the detachment get its benefits and they cannot be part of two detachments at the same time, so it's either SW or CAD benefits...
I think from what has been leaked so far that the Codex is playable and looks fun to use. Not top of the pile like Tau/Eldar or TauDar was when it came along, but certainly not nerfed down to 5th Ed Nids in 6th Ed (after all the FAQs worked against them).
The only thing that looks lacklustre to me are the powers. Mostly weak shooting attacks. Thunderclap is particular is woeful. 2D6Str 3 AP- shots at 12"? Really? Murderous Hurricane and Fury of the Wolf Spirits isn't much better. Jaws was nerfed but I think its still reasonable. Quick fix for Necron Overlords with MSS, and if anyone is planning to face Necrons regularly I can see Jaws Priests becoming an auto-take for that along.
Living Lightning looks ok, but its a slightly worse version of a Tesla Destructor. With more rolls needed to use.
The first power for Obscured and Wrath of the Storm are ok at best. There are better powers in the BRB.
ausYenLoWang wrote: haha have you SEEN our warlord traits... the codex ones. there is 2 that on average are decent. D3 infiltrate. and PE marines.
TBH i did miss that in the BRB i thought it was a rule being given to SW so they could try again for their sagas. so my bad.
You know, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who read the army composition part of the BRB.
does CAD apply to using their own FOC, or the FOC supplied in the BRB? because the modified chart in the codex and the different bonus' for using it would seem to apply as well.
I strongly suggest you to read the relevant part of the BRB, because your question does not even make sense. Army is build out of different types of detachments, FOC is an attributed of a detachment. CAD is a type of detachment. The special SW 6 HQ detachment is a type of detachment. Only units that are part of the detachment get its benefits and they cannot be part of two detachments at the same time, so it's either SW or CAD benefits...
Really, read the rules before you start crying.
im asking as people have mentioned that SW who take the min 2 HQ slots as per codex are saying that they DONT get the ObSec bonus but get codex related bonus' . hence the question.
and as to "crying" i have not cried just pointed out to whiners that the "nerfs" received to the SW codex bring them into line with other codecies, and in some cases the nerfs are down to the level CSM have had since thebegining of 6th. (best of 4++ on Lords, no EW etc)
Justyn wrote: I don't know about doom and gloom. So much as just bleh its boring. Not to say there isn't some doom and gloom. But I believe most people are just not that interested. None of the Special Characters seem special other than Logan, who is over the top in a lame way. The few things that could have been inspiring just aren't. Murderfang a close combat named dread, This guy could have been amazing, but no, just murder this murder that and yeah we forgot his name because we just don't care. Shield/Axe Dread looks great but the rules are lackluster and bland. Characters got cheaper, but lost any flavor. Psychic powers seem lame for the most part.
OK, I'll give you the psychic powers. They do suck. But at least we have access to BRB powers. And some good ones at that! And I guess some of the wolves character has gone missing. But it doesn't sound like a bad book at all. I think it sounds like it could be quite competitive. And more exciting for me is that it sounds competitive without requiring units to be spammed. People seem upset that they can't spam grey hunters like they did before. But I personally like the direction people are pushed into. Hopefully it'll mean more rounded armies.
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Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: I feel like this might be an era for Blood Claws and Thunderwolf Cavalry... this pleases me greatly...
I'm also very excited. Yeah blood claws BS is poor, but they could prove an awesome close combat unit. And I really wanted TWC to be improved, and they have. Massively.
Why do they seem like an awesome close combat unit? They look like assault marines to me.. and assault marines have been terrible for an extremely long time. Rage isn't a very large bonus, when you're STILL an assault marine (with worse stats).
Kirasu wrote: Why do they seem like an awesome close combat unit? They look like assault marines to me.. and assault marines have been terrible for an extremely long time. Rage isn't a very large bonus, when you're STILL an assault marine (with worse stats).
Because they cost very little, can get multiple special weapons, can take a melee special weapon without it needing to be carried by a character, plus they have rage, and counter attack..... And at that low points cost they're possibly the cheapest form of MEQ.
Kirasu wrote: Why do they seem like an awesome close combat unit? They look like assault marines to me.. and assault marines have been terrible for an extremely long time. Rage isn't a very large bonus, when you're STILL an assault marine (with worse stats).
Because they cost very little, can get multiple special weapons, can take a melee special weapon without it needing to be carried by a character, plus they have rage, and counter attack..... And at that low points cost they're possibly the cheapest form of MEQ.
This right here. They are everything Khorne Berserkers should be, with slightly lower stats and lack of furious charge.
Kirasu wrote: Why do they seem like an awesome close combat unit? They look like assault marines to me.. and assault marines have been terrible for an extremely long time. Rage isn't a very large bonus, when you're STILL an assault marine (with worse stats).
The last time I assaulted with assault marines was early 5th edition...
Once the blood angel ones get a points drop I can see assault marines being useful.
As for blood claws they are 12 points. That is pretty darn cheap. I could see 1-2 full packs being pretty good, especially combined with the new flier(which would have OS). Throw a character into each and then go to town.
Add in some other support elements and I think it could be the solid basis for a list.
TWC max size went up to 6 now too. You can get 6 for 10pts less than you could get 5 for
I think 2-3 units of 5 with some shields and a fist or two is going to be a big deal. They are basically everthing bloodcrushers should have been. 2-3 units support by several drop pod units is going to be seriously hardcore.
Hulksmash wrote: TWC max size went up to 6 now too. You can get 6 for 10pts less than you could get 5 for
I think 2-3 units of 5 with some shields and a fist or two is going to be a big deal. They are basically everthing bloodcrushers should have been. 2-3 units support by several drop pod units is going to be seriously hardcore.
This was my thoughts exactly. I'm interested to see exactly what weapons blood claws can get. But 2-3 pods full is still pretty durable and once they've all survived a shooting turn will munch anything they hit that's not an MC or equivalent. Then 2-3 units of TWC with Shields and other specials can hurt...... Basically everything and anything. Add in a couple of long fang packs with pods just to allow you to drop all 3 blood claws. Or maybe a murdermurdermurder or what ever it's called and you could be laughing.
I'm even contemplating an 8 man blood claws pack with a WG in TDA with a SS and the dread with the SS. See if I can't get a shield in every unit.....
Uriels_Flame wrote: I agree. They just need a little screening to get up and wreck face.
Well I'm hoping some pods full of MEQ will be enough of a distraction to get the TWC close enough to do their thing. My main opponent is a farsight enclaves player. I' hoping to really upset him.
Hulksmash wrote: TWC max size went up to 6 now too. You can get 6 for 10pts less than you could get 5 for
I think 2-3 units of 5 with some shields and a fist or two is going to be a big deal. They are basically everthing bloodcrushers should have been. 2-3 units support by several drop pod units is going to be seriously hardcore.
Yep, don't forget you can get a 2+ armor tank for them as well (Iron Priest), or add in characters from other armies (Super friends!) like Eternal Bike Masters, etc. TWC are hilarious now.
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