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Post by: kirsanth
 stonehorse wrote:So this is why GW were hinting that Tyranid Warriors are so important. Helps to keep up a Synapse bubble.
That is not new. They are just horrid at it because they cannot survive.
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Post by: Eldercaveman
 JeffVimes wrote:The guy said he started 40K recently. He might be missing crucial points. #wishfulthinking
Move over, I want to clutch this straw with you...
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Post by: stonehorse
 kirsanth wrote: stonehorse wrote:So this is why GW were hinting that Tyranid Warriors are so important. Helps to keep up a Synapse bubble.
That is not new. They are just horrid at it because they cannot survive.
Sorry, didn't think I'd need to spell out the obvious.
As our fragile troops can now eat themselves when out of Synapse, Synapse is more vital than ever. Just a shame that those that bring the Synapse Bubble are themselves not too hard to take out. Hence why GW are promoting Tyranid Warriors... to try to cover up their failures at writing a balanced Codex if what we are hearing is true.
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Post by: ductvader
stonehorse wrote: kirsanth wrote: stonehorse wrote:So this is why GW were hinting that Tyranid Warriors are so important. Helps to keep up a Synapse bubble.
That is not new. They are just horrid at it because they cannot survive.
Sorry, didn't think I'd need to spell out the obvious.
As our fragile troops can now eat themselves when out of Synapse, Synapse is more vital than ever. Just a shame that those that bring the Synapse Bubble are themselves not too hard to take out. Hence why GW are promoting Tyranid Warriors... to try to cover up their failures at writing a balanced Codex if what we are hearing is true.
Where did the IB feed rumor come from?
I missed this one completely.
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Post by: kirsanth
stonehorse wrote: Sorry, didn't think I'd need to spell out the obvious. As our fragile troops can now eat themselves when out of Synapse, Synapse is more vital than ever. Just a shame that those that bring the Synapse Bubble are themselves not too hard to take out. Hence why GW are promoting Tyranid Warriors... to try to cover up their failures at writing a balanced Codex if what we are hearing is true.
That does not change my point at all, nor even challenge its validity. Super-easy to kill models in a different unit are what is needed to keep our gribblies from killing themselves? GOOD TIMES!
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Post by: stonehorse
 ductvader wrote: stonehorse wrote: kirsanth wrote: stonehorse wrote:So this is why GW were hinting that Tyranid Warriors are so important. Helps to keep up a Synapse bubble.
That is not new. They are just horrid at it because they cannot survive.
Sorry, didn't think I'd need to spell out the obvious.
As our fragile troops can now eat themselves when out of Synapse, Synapse is more vital than ever. Just a shame that those that bring the Synapse Bubble are themselves not too hard to take out. Hence why GW are promoting Tyranid Warriors... to try to cover up their failures at writing a balanced Codex if what we are hearing is true.
Where did the IB feed rumor come from?
I missed this one completely.
From the person on Warseer who has the Codex, and has posted pictures of said Codex. All instinctive behaviour is now a chart, for Feed a roll of a 1 means that the unit/model attacks its self. We don't yet have the full mechanics of how this is resolved, but it is looking pretty grim, remember how we all laughed at Ripper Swarms due to their stupid special rule, well now we can do it at a lot more things. Huzzar!
kirsanth wrote: stonehorse wrote:
Sorry, didn't think I'd need to spell out the obvious.
As our fragile troops can now eat themselves when out of Synapse, Synapse is more vital than ever. Just a shame that those that bring the Synapse Bubble are themselves not too hard to take out. Hence why GW are promoting Tyranid Warriors... to try to cover up their failures at writing a balanced Codex if what we are hearing is true.
That does not change my point at all, nor even challenge its validity.
Super-easy to kill models in a different unit are what is needed to keep our gribblies from killing themselves?
GOOD TIMES!
Spell casting... S A R C A S M.
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Post by: Ravajaxe
ductvader wrote: Where did the IB feed rumor come from? I missed this one completely.
From this guy who read the codex, he said : Instictive behaviours are fixed per unit just like former codex.
However, there are three specific results per behaviour depending on dice.
Lurk : Fall Back / Can shoot only when hidden / Can shot only when hidden + Stealth
Hunt : Go to Ground / Shoot closest unit / Shoot closest enemy unit + Preferred Enemy
Feed : Inflicting hits on themselves / Assault closest enemy units / Assualt closest enemy unit + Rage
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Post by: the shrouded lord
kirsanth wrote: stonehorse wrote:
Sorry, didn't think I'd need to spell out the obvious.
As our fragile troops can now eat themselves when out of Synapse, Synapse is more vital than ever. Just a shame that those that bring the Synapse Bubble are themselves not too hard to take out. Hence why GW are promoting Tyranid Warriors... to try to cover up their failures at writing a balanced Codex if what we are hearing is true.
That does not change my point at all, nor even challenge its validity.
Super-easy to kill models in a different unit are what is needed to keep our gribblies from killing themselves?
GOOD TIMES!
I'm not saying anything.
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Post by: ductvader
Meh, I generally only ever have a unit out of synapse once per game...not too big a changer. Anyone leaving synapse generally isn't going to do too well either.
Between, Zoeys, Tervigons, and Tyrants, synapse generally should be a problem.
Your standard shellrant should be able to give more peace of mind to anyone afraid of this. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Ravajaxe wrote: ductvader wrote:
Where did the IB feed rumor come from?
I missed this one completely.
From this guy who read the codex, he said :
Instictive behaviours are fixed per unit just like former codex.
However, there are three specific results per behaviour depending on dice.
Lurk : Fall Back / Can shoot only when hidden / Can shot only when hidden + Stealth
Hunt : Go to Ground / Shoot closest unit / Shoot closest enemy unit + Preferred Enemy
Feed : Inflicting hits on themselves / Assault closest enemy units / Assualt closest enemy unit + Rage
Also, is it still passable on a test?
If so, you'll only be doing what the unit didn't want to do about 25% of the time.
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Post by: gorgon
I agree, and this (along with the bits someone pointed out about Raveners) is why people shouldn't panic about this stuff, even if it's from the codex. The person in question is either giving us incomplete information, or doesn't really understand what he's looking at.
I've been saying for a while that we probably shouldn't expect a major overhaul based on what we've seen from 6th ed codices. So I'm not surprised that changes look to be more measured. Furthermore, something I've said for a long time is that GW sees Tyranids differently than most armies -- not a proper protagonist or antagonist but cinematic target practice. It is what it is.
BUT AGAIN...it's still way too early to freak out. Time and time again the denizens of this forum have declared a new codex to be dead on arrival and been proven wrong. It even happens after codices have been in players' hands for a while. You should have been here for the discussion of the 4th edition codex. It was *loudly* declared to be DOA, and even Nidzilla builds were met with a lot of skepticism early on. Then as people started winning and others started understanding how the list works, *only then* did it become the great scourge of 4th edition. 
Personally, my gut is still saying look to the MCs....
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Post by: Therion
I think the change makes synapse all the more important which does in fact give the army a theme that it's always been trying to have (Shoot the big ones). The idea thematically is that if you can kill the leaders of the Tyranid swarm the army defeats itself. Now that's very much a possible outcome on the tabletop too.
That said it has to come out balanced in the points costs. I suppose GW will do a piss poor job with a bunch of units like always making them either barely borderline usable or outright craptastic, but the armies will be carried by a few obnoxiously useful and underpriced units like possibly the Crone and Exocrine. It'll lead to a single main build with one or two minor variations. It's the same for almost everyone though. I think currently only the Tau book allows nearly everything to be used reasonably competitively. Every other army has atleast half of the units in the trash bin with the lid tightly closed. Yet, even with the aforementioned Tau armies, all the competitive armies look the same with only very few small differences.
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Post by: MVBrandt
The leaker confirmed they are AP5+ Rending; that said, there are a lot of indie rumors that are bad, but entirely incomplete. TBD on what's what. We'll all know in a couple days.
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Post by: ductvader
 gorgon wrote:I've been saying for a while that we probably shouldn't expect a major overhaul based on what we've seen from 6th ed codices. So I'm not surprised that changes look to be more measured. Furthermore, something I've said for a long time is that GW sees Tyranids differently than most armies -- not a proper protagonist or antagonist but cinematic target practice. It is what it is.
Just look at Eternal Crusade...
 Therion wrote:I think the change makes synapse all the more important which does in fact give the army a theme that it's always been trying to have (Shoot the big ones). The idea thematically is that if you can kill the leaders of the Tyranid swarm the army defeats itself. Now that's very much a possible outcome on the tabletop too.
More than anything I think that this has given the army an even more aggressive stance than it already had. Tyranids can't wait and plan for a five turn game like Eldar, Tau, or Marines. They, as always and to a much greater extent now, have to win the game on turn 3 at the latest.
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Post by: roxor08
Wow, my one and only army.....sad day. I guess I'll just have to wait til Friday.
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Post by: pretre
via DaBoarder & Mr. Mystery
Instinctive Behaviors
Lurk (Termagants have this)
Feed (Hormagaunts have this)
Hunt (Gargoyles have this)
Genestealers appear to neither have Brood Telepathy, nor Instinctive Behaviour. Hmm...
Psychic Powers:
Primaris: Dominion ???
Psychic Scream: 6" Nova, Target takes a 2D6+2-Ld wounds no armour or cover. 1Warp Charge
Warp Blast: 2 Warp Charges
24" S(5?) AP:3, Blast Assault 1
18" S10 AP:2, Lance Assault 1
If Psychic Scream can somehow stack with Shadow in the Warp - it could be pretty scary out there fighting the bugs.
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Post by: stonehorse
gorgon wrote:
I agree, and this (along with the bits someone pointed out about Raveners) is why people shouldn't panic about this stuff, even if it's from the codex. The person in question is either giving us incomplete information, or doesn't really understand what he's looking at.
I've been saying for a while that we probably shouldn't expect a major overhaul based on what we've seen from 6th ed codices. So I'm not surprised that changes look to be more measured. Furthermore, something I've said for a long time is that GW sees Tyranids differently than most armies -- not a proper protagonist or antagonist but cinematic target practice. It is what it is.
BUT AGAIN...it's still way too early to freak out. Time and time again the denizens of this forum have declared a new codex to be dead on arrival and been proven wrong. It even happens after codices have been in players' hands for a while. You should have been here for the discussion of the 4th edition codex. It was *loudly* declared to be DOA, and even Nidzilla builds were met with a lot of skepticism early on. Then as people started winning and others started understanding how the list works, *only then* did it become the great scourge of 4th edition.
Personally, my gut is still saying look to the MCs....
True, Nidzilla seems to be very much alive with what we are hearing. The price drops all around mean more room for more big gribblies. Just hope that we can move away from mono builds that have been a staple for Tyranids due to the current Codex containing a staggering amount of inconsistencies. It is understandable why so many people are getting a bit frustrated with what we are hearing, as it seems that a lot of the issues from the current Codex are not being addressed, while new issues are being added.
The poster on Warseer, has said that Rending Claws do also have Rending, on top of being AP 5, that is an upgrade. Once which makes sense.
That being said, time will tell, not long now before we have the Codex in our hands.
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Post by: pretre
via Stickmonkey from the Faeit 212 inbox.
Sorry that is the image from the apoc book. I hadnt even removed the shrink wrap from mine so did not realize.
Anyway I asked my sources. Word is they believe the data slate will contain 3 of the apoc formations for use in 40k, the vanguard infestation, subterranean swarm, and endless swarm. But with some slight rules changes away from apoc specific devices: for instance "without number" on the data slate supposedly changes to allow a single unit from the formation to reenter play on a roll of 5+ during the reserves sub phase.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
meh_ wrote:So people seem to have entered the denial mode now.
For the record, the five-stage model of grief is justifiably considered erroneous even when applied to actual grief, never mind to a 40k armybook. So feel free to rethink your angle of attack, friend.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
As we are looking at a (admittedly larger) portion of the whole picture, interpretation of this codex is still subject to change.
However, here are my thoughts on this current batch of "rumors" from the Sinstrel leaks:
Overall we're getting a point decrease across the board; warriors and genestealers seem to have stayed the same, and rippers (for god knows why) went up in points. Everything else, especially the MC's, has lowered in points. That fact alone is substantially significant - what feels like unit "nerfs" has to be accompanied by we will have 20-30 percent more models in the same points list as we currently do. Target saturation is the name of the game with tyranids.
A lot of the big beasts and multi-attack units have had their base A stat lowered. This makes sense, as their points have gone down as well, and having 2 sets of melee weapons boosts their attacks back up. It's also a stealth boost to Trygons. I'll explain:
currently, trygons have an A stat of 6. When they smash, it goes to 3 + charge bonus. max 4.
With the rumored stat drop to 5 attacks, they'll still smash at 3. However they get their bonus for +2 sets of Cc weapons (ap6 talons, ooh) for 4 attacks, + charge bonus for 5 max smash attacks. For lower points. If they're not smashing they'll still have 6 attacks and 7 when charging. I'm sure other units will benefit from this slight change too.
Carnifexes went down in price by a TON. we saw that in the white dwarf. Now they lost a base attack as well. But, they gained +D3 hammer of wrath attacks (living battering ram) as well as never needing to smash with crushing claws (Sx2, armorbane, unwieldy [which MCs ignore]). Oh and it looks like they're I2 now, making them 33% more resilient to JAWS OF THE WOLF WOLF. Did i mention they went down in points by a super ton? Because they did.
There's a bunch of stuff I obviously don't know, i'm just going by what i've been reading. But while face value and "in a vacuum" analyses of the data are looking grim and dreadful, I'd like to actually play some games with the book before declaring it utter trash. We still haven't really seen the statlines for any of the new beasties, or points on naked tyrant guard, or all of the bio artifacts, yadda yadda yadda. Seeing it all play out on the table will be the final word.
Also cruddace wasn't named the Author in the white dwarf: they did an interview with him and he was "the hive mind's most formidible synapse creature". That could have been referring to the current codex, or just a BS title they wanted to use to make him sound "cool".
On instinctive Behavior tables - it looks like if it's a D3, 1/3 of the time failing is bad, 1/3 of the time it's annoying but not terrible (they don't appear to restrict movement, just shooting and assaulting targets), and the last 1/3 of the time it's a buff (kind of). So it's tolerable i think, and again keeping synapse creatures in the list and on the table should be important anyway. It was silly that I wanted to fail synapse on my trygons and carnifexes in 6th edition - it wasn't designed as a boon in 5th edition.
I'm rambling now. I'm extra excited. Hopefully some other folks will get their books early and chime in on how these changes appear to affect the army as a whole.
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Post by: Eldercaveman
Dropping attacks on units like Trygons makes sense, since the extra attacks for the pairs of close combat weapons that they cam with stock were already included in their profiles. Now that we get it from the weapons themselves, it makes sense to remove the auto included attack.
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Post by: gorgon
stonehorse wrote: gorgon wrote:
I agree, and this (along with the bits someone pointed out about Raveners) is why people shouldn't panic about this stuff, even if it's from the codex. The person in question is either giving us incomplete information, or doesn't really understand what he's looking at.
I've been saying for a while that we probably shouldn't expect a major overhaul based on what we've seen from 6th ed codices. So I'm not surprised that changes look to be more measured. Furthermore, something I've said for a long time is that GW sees Tyranids differently than most armies -- not a proper protagonist or antagonist but cinematic target practice. It is what it is.
BUT AGAIN...it's still way too early to freak out. Time and time again the denizens of this forum have declared a new codex to be dead on arrival and been proven wrong. It even happens after codices have been in players' hands for a while. You should have been here for the discussion of the 4th edition codex. It was *loudly* declared to be DOA, and even Nidzilla builds were met with a lot of skepticism early on. Then as people started winning and others started understanding how the list works, *only then* did it become the great scourge of 4th edition.
Personally, my gut is still saying look to the MCs....
True, Nidzilla seems to be very much alive with what we are hearing. The price drops all around mean more room for more big gribblies. Just hope that we can move away from mono builds that have been a staple for Tyranids due to the current Codex containing a staggering amount of inconsistencies. It is understandable why so many people are getting a bit frustrated with what we are hearing, as it seems that a lot of the issues from the current Codex are not being addressed, while new issues are being added.
Oh sure, I get the frustration. I started Tyranids in 2nd edition, when they were fast and deadly. And in all their different incarnations since, they haven't really quite been that again. Null deployment was a lot of fun in 5th edition before GKs pretty much trumped them. Tyranids are still effective, I'm just not in love with their current playstyle. There's a reason why I have a Daemons project percolating, LOL.
But I'll be tinkering with this codex for a while. Again, Scuttlers in the 4th edition codex went largely unexploited for a year or two before a couple Dakkaites put together the right kind of list and showed that it could win tournaments. Sixth edition might naturally create some challenges for Tyranids, but I'll keep plugging at it. Fortunately my collection is large enough at this point that I can field a lot of different ideas.
It sounds like some kind of funny cliche, but Tyranids have been through so many evolutions over the years that it's forced Tyranid players to become very good at adapting.
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Post by: Redemption
Of course, if they loose re-roll to hit, they'll still hit less in the end. Hopefully the cost reduction offsets that. The Mawloc might overtake the Trygon in popularity if it's really only 130-140 points and its Terror from the Deep ignores cover like he indicated.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
 Redemption wrote:Of course, if they loose re-roll to hit, they'll still hit less in the end. Hopefully the cost reduction offsets that. The Mawloc might overtake the Trygon in popularity if it's really only 130-140 points and its Terror from the Deep ignores cover like he indicated.
Quite true - but imagine a trygon or trygon prime with a 2+ armor save (hinted at through a Ymgarl-type upgrade...maybe +1A, +1Sv, +1T that swaps every turn?) Edit - I'm also betting that Regeneration (if point costed appropriately) makes it back in a big way. It's most likely going to be It Will Not Die USR for our big bugs, which at 5-15 points per model would be a STEAL. Another Edit - If our Hive Tyrants and Tervigons have Mastery Level 2 they'll deny the witch vs most psykers on a 4+. Tervigons will be safer vs Jaws unless space wolf players start shucking out 50 extra points to make their rune priests ML2.
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Post by: Redemption
That's allegedly one of the bio-artefacts, which normally are expensive, only available to HQ characters and one-per-army. So maybe that the Trygon Prime has access to it (it wasn't listed in the HQ section of that eCodex army builder), but the regular one almost definitely doesn't.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
It would still be cool.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
 tetrisphreak wrote:Oh and it looks like they're I2 now, making them 33% more resilient to JAWS OF THE WOLF WOLF.
Do you mean Wolf of the Wolf Wolf, the wolf cast by the wolf priest from the space wolves, that famous wolf marine chapwolf ?
They sure do like naming things after wolves  .
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Post by: N.I.B.
ductvader wrote:
Between, Zoeys, Tervigons, and Tyrants, synapse generally should be a problem.
Your standard shellrant should be able to give more peace of mind to anyone afraid of this.
Armoured Shell is most likely replaced by the Apex Biomorph on a single creature. So no.
Trygon losing reroll all hits is a huge nerf, regardless of a single bonus attack on the charge. The damage output is dramatically lower. Trygon will be shelf material, if this is true.
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Post by: ductvader
 N.I.B. wrote: ductvader wrote:
Between, Zoeys, Tervigons, and Tyrants, synapse generally should be a problem.
Your standard shellrant should be able to give more peace of mind to anyone afraid of this.
Armoured Shell is most likely replaced by the Apex Biomorph on a single creature. So no.
Or yes, taking multiple shellrants isn't and wasn't ever necessary. To to mention that more often than not, IB does nothing or helps you.
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Post by: Hivefleet Oblivion
N.I.B. wrote: ductvader wrote:
Between, Zoeys, Tervigons, and Tyrants, synapse generally should be a problem.
Your standard shellrant should be able to give more peace of mind to anyone afraid of this.
Armoured Shell is most likely replaced by the Apex Biomorph on a single creature. So no.
Trygon losing reroll all hits is a huge nerf, regardless of a single bonus attack on the charge. The damage output is dramatically lower. Trygon will be shelf material, if this is true.
Indeed. And still our fella hasn't mentioned anything about a Spore replacement, so the hope of a trygon tunnel actually being workable is dwindling, if we believe he's legit. But even if he is legit, he doesn't seem to know much about 'nids, so fingers crossed there are some buffs he hasn't quite fathomed.
We have arranged to get our copy midnight Friday, so not much longer till we're put out of our misery.
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Post by: rigeld2
The Synapse thing really annoys me. A Carnifex eating itself because it can't talk to momma? Sigh...
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Post by: Zookie
I think it is a little soon to panic. I doubt the kid posting on Warseer is being malicious. But it does sound like he is not familiar with tyranids and not as interested as we would be in the details. Just made some observations and typed them up as he remembered when he got home.
For example if you looked at the Eldar codex stats in the back of the book you would think "Oh, Shuriken cats are unchanged" if you did not bother to read carefully and note the awesomeness of blade storm. For example it he notes that a lot of units lost attacks. But if two CC weapon set add an attack then that might not be the case. So a Trygon is A 5 now with two scything talons, so a base attack of 6. In other words no nerf. Also I really really doubt that rending claws lost rending. But gaining AP 5 with rending is great!
It may be true that in the end the codex is a real lemon. But I think now our time would be better spent trying to read between the lines of patchy information then hand wringing.
For example, if AG give fleet, then how does that stack with units that have fleet? Does it do nothing does it add something else. For example I could see a rule saying "If a unit which already has fleet takes AG then in addition to furious charge they gain X"
My home would be a special nid rule that allows running and charging. But more realistically I wonder if it will be the crusader rule.
Just remember: www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGFXGwHsD_A
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Post by: pretre
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: tetrisphreak wrote:Oh and it looks like they're I2 now, making them 33% more resilient to JAWS OF THE WOLF WOLF.
Do you mean Wolf of the Wolf Wolf, the wolf cast by the wolf priest from the space wolves, that famous wolf marine chapwolf ?
They sure do like naming things after wolves .
How topical! Any forum goers who have been in a cave for the last 5 years may find this insightful.  Automatically Appended Next Post: rigeld2 wrote:The Synapse thing really annoys me. A Carnifex eating itself because it can't talk to momma? Sigh...
I kind of like it. It definitely gives both a positive and negative to Synapse and fits with the idea of hive mind control being important to the survival of the drones.
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Post by: ductvader
 pretre wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
rigeld2 wrote:The Synapse thing really annoys me. A Carnifex eating itself because it can't talk to momma? Sigh...
I kind of like it. It definitely gives both a positive and negative to Synapse and fits with the idea of hive mind control being important to the survival of the drones.
Reinventing the 5th Ed Rage USR would have made more sense. Loss of control makes sense, not paranoid attack the closest thing dementia.
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Post by: Kirasu
Yeah that doesn't make a lot of sense for it to attack itself.. Even mindless killers still go after targets..
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Post by: Manchu
Would be good for FW sales.
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Post by: rigeld2
pretre wrote:rigeld2 wrote:The Synapse thing really annoys me. A Carnifex eating itself because it can't talk to momma? Sigh...
I kind of like it. It definitely gives both a positive and negative to Synapse and fits with the idea of hive mind control being important to the survival of the drones.
There's a difference between making it important and "This thing will literally eat itself without supervision." The latter doesn't make sense to program as instinctual behavior.
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Post by: pretre
ductvader wrote:Loss of control makes sense, not paranoid attack the closest thing dementia.
Except that is kind of an established sci-fi trope. Cut off the head and the body dies. Or attacks itself or goes crazy and kills everything near it.
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Post by: ductvader
 Kirasu wrote:Yeah that doesn't make a lot of sense for it to attack itself.. Even mindless killers still go after targets..
As we have little idea of what these inflicted wounds actually are...I am holding out hope for "hammer of wrath"-like inflicted hits...each model strikes with one attack at strength, ap- Automatically Appended Next Post: pretre wrote: ductvader wrote:Loss of control makes sense, not paranoid attack the closest thing dementia.
Except that is kind of an established sci-fi trope. Cut off the head and the body dies. Or attacks itself or goes crazy and kills everything near it.
Except that there are multiple stories of initial synapseless forces attacking planets before mama comes down...or building up tyranid forces from a few scattered remaining forces.
Mawlocs, and Raveners would never be able to get to their targets as they'd all fight amongst themselves underground...loss of synapse generally is supposed to represent to loss of synergy and coordinated plans.
We're talking tyranids here, which I personally believe is much different than generic sci-fi trope. Personal opinion there.
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Post by: Kwosge
I think the guy who leaked the melee bio-morphs left off all the special rules for them. AP5 Rending claws with no other special rules and AP6 STs? Highly unlikely.
To clarify my position, according to the rumors, Rending Claws and STs are AP5 and AP6, respectfully. I think that they probably are but still have their normal special rules and that the special rules were just left out for various reasons.
VvVvVvV
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Post by: ductvader
 Kwosge wrote:I think the guy who leaked the melee bio-morphs left off all the special rules for them. AP5 Rending claws with no other special rules and AP6 STs? Highly unlikely.
Its likely that those portions are true, I personally believe the misunderstanding comes from the lack of knowledge that tryanid ccw effects tend to stack together. So a model with rending claws and scytals would be ap5 with rending and reroll to hit roll of 1. (as it currently stands) I am not worried, seems like an honest mistake on the source's part.
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Post by: Posit
I think it's adorable that after all this time people are still giving GW the benefit of the doubt.
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Post by: streamdragon
Posit wrote:I think it's adorable that after all this time people are still giving GW the benefit of the doubt.
Especially when it comes to Cruddace having any sort of input on a book.
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Post by: aceface
Every new codex has winners and losers this will be no different at worst it will be another CSM with a few new over powered units and the rest will be average but fun. Just depends what you want from the codex . If you want OP competitive there is going to be broken combos in there. Face it that's always the case .
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Post by: tetrisphreak
Posit wrote:I think it's adorable that after all this time people are still giving GW the benefit of the doubt.
Look at the home-run codices that were Tau, Eldar, and to a lesser degree, Space Marines. We have all the reason in the world to believe that Tyranids would follow the trend of fun codices with useful and powerful units. I'm still not convinced this isn't true, but we won't know for sure until everyone interested has had the book and read for themselves the combos and unit synergies.
Call me naive, but i'm still optimistic that we'll get something at least as playable as Codex: Space Marines.
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Post by: Anpu42
Personaly I get exited with each new Codex. My group spends a moth looking for them bigest Cheeze we can find and then when we finialy field the new army we just pull out lightly modified list of what we have been playing for a decade with some of the cool toys and that is about it.
As fo the Whiners
1
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Post by: ductvader
tetrisphreak wrote:Call me naive, but i'm still optimistic that we'll get something at least as playable as Codex: Space Marines.
Well, that won't be hard...
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Post by: tetrisphreak
Maybe it's just my group isn't that META but I really liked the new Marine book, and feel like it has what it takes to win games of standard 40K.
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Post by: Hivefleet Oblivion
 Anpu42 wrote:Personaly I get exited with each new Codex. My group spends a moth looking for them bigest Cheeze we can find and then when we finialy field the new army we just pull out lightly modified list of what we have been playing for a decade with some of the cool toys and that is about it.
As fo the Whiners
Look, I'm with the optimists, and am sure we'll have fun whatever happens.
But quit with the 'whiners' talk. People have a right to their opinion, and some of those posting opinions, like NIB, have posted a lot of tactical insights in the past, without posting silly insulting gifs. Calling people whiners is being like the drama queens who get annoyed if anyone suggests Tom Kirby is less evil than Darth Vader. People have a right to their opinions, even if they differ from yours or mine. No-one has the complete picture so far, so we all have to hold our nerves.
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Post by: ductvader
tetrisphreak wrote:
Maybe it's just my group isn't that META but I really liked the new Marine book, and feel like it has what it takes to win games of standard 40K.
I liked the book too...it's just, as always, very middle of the road.
Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I personally loved Cruddace's 5th Ed book, very very very, maybe too much, balanced.
Just hoping that 6th gives us some flavor back without going over the top.
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Post by: streamdragon
tetrisphreak wrote:
Maybe it's just my group isn't that META but I really liked the new Marine book, and feel like it has what it takes to win games of standard 40K.
I don't think anyone is saying that there exists a codex that is literally incapable of winning games. But it's also equally silly to deny that there are some armies that are simply better or more powerful and easy to win with.
We are suggesting, at the very least, Tyranids will not be in that group.
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Post by: DO IT TO IT
Well, this was depressing to wake up to. Hopefully this guy is just yanking everyones chain.
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Post by: Anpu42
 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: Anpu42 wrote:Personaly I get exited with each new Codex. My group spends a moth looking for them bigest Cheeze we can find and then when we finialy field the new army we just pull out lightly modified list of what we have been playing for a decade with some of the cool toys and that is about it.
As fo the Whiners
Look, I'm with the optimists, and am sure we'll have fun whatever happens.
But quit with the 'whiners' talk. People have a right to their opinion, and some of those posting opinions, like NIB, have posted a lot of tactical insights in the past, without posting silly insulting gifs. Calling people whiners is being like the drama queens who get annoyed if anyone suggests Tom Kirby is less evil than Darth Vader. People have a right to their opinions, even if they differ from yours or mine. No-one has the complete picture so far, so we all have to hold our nerves.
My problem is not with the ones complaing that unit A and B just get screwed. It was aimed at this who are quiting and puting thier armies on the shelf before the Codex has not even come out yet. I know this is normal normal, but...it gets real old real quick.
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Post by: Imposter101
This looks to be like another CSM situation. Pretty disappointing over all.
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Post by: evilsponge
Lots of denial about the truth ITT
Sorry friends, you've been Cruddace'ed again
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Post by: TyCorny
The only thing I'm excited about seems to be the only thing nobody has hing new about.
here's hoping my 9 pyrovore list becomes as amazing as ever! 
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Post by: The Shadow
gorgon wrote:It sounds like some kind of funny cliche, but Tyranids have been through so many evolutions over the years that it's forced Tyranid players to become very good at adapting.
It all makes sense! GW are trying to make Tyranid players think like the Hive Mind! Imposter101 wrote:This looks to be like another CSM situation. Pretty disappointing over all.
Meh, this annoys me as well. I remember how people were complaining about how utterly broken the Helldrake was and how CSM would kill us all. Now, " CSM are really bad". And yes, while the changing meta does affect things, people should over-hype or down-hype a certain something. Give the codex/army book a month or two to settle. I think people slating the book writers is pretty shameful too. Someone on this thread said "oh, Matt Ward would have done a better job". I'd be willing to bet that, had Matt Ward actually written it, that same person would be complaining about it. I enjoyed the last Tyranid book, it was pretty powerful in 5th edition and had some great playstyles. Overwatch, fortifications, flyers and the inability to charge from outflank, has reduced Nids to a very mono-build book, but it's still a good mono-build, and I've used slight variations of it with success as well. And, in regards to the new rumours, I'm not believing any of it, not until I see it. Has anyone considered the fact that, if this guy had wanted to share the new rules - the actual rules that are in the book - he would have simply taken a picture of the pages of the relevant rules? I'm not sure how quick Photobucket uploads images, but I use Imageshack and that's quick. If I'd wanted to share a book's rules, it'd be far quicker for me to take pictures of every page and upload them, rather than type them out.
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Post by: Crimson
Of course it is perfectly possible that it will be crap, but it is silly how many people seem to be so sure about that, based on very patchy information. I remember how Dakka was totally convinced that the Eldar were weak too, and see how that turned out.
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Post by: evilsponge
 The Shadow wrote:
And, in regards to the new rumours, I'm not believing any of it, not until I see it. Has anyone considered the fact that, if this guy had wanted to share the new rules - the actual rules that are in the book - he would have simply taken a picture of the pages of the relevant rules? I'm not sure how quick Photobucket uploads images, but I use Imageshack and that's quick. If I'd wanted to share a book's rules, it'd be far quicker for me to take pictures of every page and upload them, rather than type them out.
Warsser is funny about posting rules on their website, so you have do thing like "unit A has the weapon profile of weapon B" to get around it
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Post by: Kirasu
The Shadow wrote:gorgon wrote:It sounds like some kind of funny cliche, but Tyranids have been through so many evolutions over the years that it's forced Tyranid players to become very good at adapting.
It all makes sense! GW are trying to make Tyranid players think like the Hive Mind!
Imposter101 wrote:This looks to be like another CSM situation. Pretty disappointing over all.
Meh, this annoys me as well. I remember how people were complaining about how utterly broken the Helldrake was and how CSM would kill us all. Now, " CSM are really bad".
An army can still be powerful in a tournament yet still be a complete failure of a book. GW doesnt like tournaments, therefore we should judge the book by how decent it is overall. CSM has so many completely useless entries and yes some good ones.
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Post by: Nem
In the last year of playing nids, I've encountered having to roll for IB maybe 3 or 4 times, and its usually spawned Termagaunts I'm taking chances on getting them outside where the bulk of the army is, sometimes it was unintended, but I don't generally leave feed units under vulnerable supervision, and if it is vulnerable, then I try and keep them within synapse range of 2 units...
That's a lot of games where the units are never out of synapse, other than the odd occasion any other time it can happen is when I'm getting owned, and units not attacking themselves is really not going to make a difference. If a unit is not able to go where I want it it might as well be a dead unit. (except in the 1 and only case it ran towards the terrain with the objective.)
So if I need to roll a 1, then while it's a bummer, it's never exactly great for me having the unit run off in a completely odd direction being just as useless. Game wise, impact is negligible, for me anyway.
That being said, fluff wise its stupid. Programmed ultimately to feed for the survival of the race... attacking themselves rather than the juicy SM?... Duuuh. Seems more like completely random behaviour rather than instinctive.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:Of course it is perfectly possible that it will be crap, but it is silly how many people seem to be so sure about that, based on very patchy information. I remember how Dakka was totally convinced that the Eldar were weak too, and see how that turned out.
Also this. The Eldar thread was full of nerf information and general acceptance they were going to be the worst army.
Then they played and found out the gains offset the nerfs.
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Post by: kirsanth
Most of my complaints for things like "warriors are useful now because synapse is more needed" is that the statement is bunk.
Not that synapse is a problem. I have never had a problem with it either.
The problem is that warriors are not any more useful regardless of how critical synapse is.
The fact that lack of synapse went from "maybe useless" to "maybe harmful" is silly. (yes, yes, it maybe a buff too. That is no less silly.)
Like not having anything to make up for the lack of allies is silly. (Note: I do not really think Tyranids should have allies.)
Like Tomb Kings not understanding how their own magic works is silly.
There are plenty of ways to explain anything in fluff.
None of them make the game better.
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Post by: Azreal13
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Look, I'm with the optimists, and am sure we'll have fun whatever happens.
But quit with the 'whiners' talk. People have a right to their opinion, and some of those posting opinions, like NIB, have posted a lot of tactical insights in the past, without posting silly insulting gifs. Calling people whiners is being like the drama queens who get annoyed if anyone suggests Tom Kirby is less evil than Darth Vader. People have a right to their opinions, even if they differ from yours or mine. No-one has the complete picture so far, so we all have to hold our nerves.
So gifs aren't ok, but broad, generalised labelling is?
Pleease tell me this was some attempt at humour and not the most blatant double standards?
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Post by: Manchu
People seem to think IB is programming. It's fairly obvious, however, that it is instead a programming or else a hardware limitation (if we insist on this dated computer metaphor).
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Post by: evilsponge
 azreal13 wrote: Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Look, I'm with the optimists, and am sure we'll have fun whatever happens.
But quit with the 'whiners' talk. People have a right to their opinion, and some of those posting opinions, like NIB, have posted a lot of tactical insights in the past, without posting silly insulting gifs. Calling people whiners is being like the drama queens who get annoyed if anyone suggests Tom Kirby is less evil than Darth Vader. People have a right to their opinions, even if they differ from yours or mine. No-one has the complete picture so far, so we all have to hold our nerves.
So gifs aren't ok, but broad, generalised labelling is?
Pleease tell me this was some attempt at humour and not the most blatant double standards?
I dunno but you're sounding like a drama queen right now imo
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Post by: Azreal13
I'm not sure you know what a drama queen is....
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Post by: ductvader
Back on topic everyone...
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Post by: The Shadow
evilsponge wrote: The Shadow wrote:
And, in regards to the new rumours, I'm not believing any of it, not until I see it. Has anyone considered the fact that, if this guy had wanted to share the new rules - the actual rules that are in the book - he would have simply taken a picture of the pages of the relevant rules? I'm not sure how quick Photobucket uploads images, but I use Imageshack and that's quick. If I'd wanted to share a book's rules, it'd be far quicker for me to take pictures of every page and upload them, rather than type them out.
Warsser is funny about posting rules on their website, so you have do thing like "unit A has the weapon profile of weapon B" to get around it
I was implying that he'd post the pics on Photobucket, where he posted the Codex. Unless Warseer has similar rules governing links to such things?
Kirasu wrote: The Shadow wrote:gorgon wrote:It sounds like some kind of funny cliche, but Tyranids have been through so many evolutions over the years that it's forced Tyranid players to become very good at adapting.
It all makes sense! GW are trying to make Tyranid players think like the Hive Mind!
Imposter101 wrote:This looks to be like another CSM situation. Pretty disappointing over all.
Meh, this annoys me as well. I remember how people were complaining about how utterly broken the Helldrake was and how CSM would kill us all. Now, " CSM are really bad".
An army can still be powerful in a tournament yet still be a complete failure of a book. GW doesnt like tournaments, therefore we should judge the book by how decent it is overall. CSM has so many completely useless entries and yes some good ones.
Point taken and I agree, just that the impression I get from many people is that they're shelving such and such an army because it's "terribad" or whatever, because they keeping getting beaten (no accusations of people being sore losers, by the way). They're not shelving it because it's mono-build.
Personally, since I've been using Tyranids again in 6th, I've had great success, often including some units people would call bad, like Hormagants and Venomthropes, and dropping the ones people view as auto-include, namely Hive Guard.
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Post by: Stormbreed
I have 13,000 points of Nids that I'll be selling off if they don't give us some kind of buff army wide. Right now it all looks like nerfs.
Oh people can only snap shot at my 5+ armor/cover model? Who cares, 10 marines will still double tap that guy down before he makes combat, once he's in combat, he'll rely on rends to actually do anything and die a horrible death.
I'm very disheartened so far.
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Post by: ductvader
Stormbreed wrote:I have 13,000 points of Nids that I'll be selling off if they don't give us some kind of buff army wide. Right now it all looks like nerfs.
Oh people can only snap shot at my 5+ armor/cover model? Who cares, 10 marines will still double tap that guy down before he makes combat, once he's in combat, he'll rely on rends to actually do anything and die a horrible death.
I'm very disheartened so far.
With stealth I believe it takes 48 bolter shots to kill a lictor this way.
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Post by: Hivefleet Oblivion
azreal13 wrote:
So gifs aren't ok, but broad, generalised labelling is?
Pleease tell me this was some attempt at humour and not the most blatant double standards?
Please, chill! It was a comic remark; I wasn't aware anyone here actually believed Kirby is more evil than Darth Vader. If you actually think so and are therefore insulted, put me on ignore, as you seem to be stalking my posts on this thread - in which case it must certainly be a slow day at your office.
[/derail].
Anyway, back to painting up the flyrant a lovely poster on the tyranid hive gave us, ready for the Last Ride Of The Doom, tomorrow nite. Tears will be shed - hopefully by the Iron Hands.
We are playing a (small-ish) tourney from the 11th and have to switch for the new codex on the 18th, so I hope the Crone we've ordered is OP, as half our list is gone.
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Post by: Imposter101
 The Shadow wrote:gorgon wrote:It sounds like some kind of funny cliche, but Tyranids have been through so many evolutions over the years that it's forced Tyranid players to become very good at adapting.
It all makes sense! GW are trying to make Tyranid players think like the Hive Mind! Imposter101 wrote:This looks to be like another CSM situation. Pretty disappointing over all.
Meh, this annoys me as well. I remember how people were complaining about how utterly broken the Helldrake was and how CSM would kill us all. Now, " CSM are really bad". And yes, while the changing meta does affect things, people should over-hype or down-hype a certain something. Give the codex/army book a month or two to settle. I think people slating the book writers is pretty shameful too. Someone on this thread said "oh, Matt Ward would have done a better job". I'd be willing to bet that, had Matt Ward actually written it, that same person would be complaining about it. I enjoyed the last Tyranid book, it was pretty powerful in 5th edition and had some great playstyles. Overwatch, fortifications, flyers and the inability to charge from outflank, has reduced Nids to a very mono-build book, but it's still a good mono-build, and I've used slight variations of it with success as well. And, in regards to the new rumours, I'm not believing any of it, not until I see it. Has anyone considered the fact that, if this guy had wanted to share the new rules - the actual rules that are in the book - he would have simply taken a picture of the pages of the relevant rules? I'm not sure how quick Photobucket uploads images, but I use Imageshack and that's quick. If I'd wanted to share a book's rules, it'd be far quicker for me to take pictures of every page and upload them, rather than type them out.
I compare it to be like the CSM codex because it's painfully reminiscent of the hype and denial, before we are provided with a low-tier codex only boosted to high-tier due to the imbalance of the number of fliers available to other armies in the game, at the time meaning the Hell-Drake became the next Plague Marine unit. The only worthwhile choice in the entire codex, leading to a repeat of the same build on a continuous basis, with every other option inferior in most ways. This is already the situation with the Tyranid (as you've mentioned), and it's lining up to be continued. The fact mono-build has become such a common thing shows the lacking ability of GW's writing team, and seems to be something that will always blight the game. CSM ARE really bad, since unless you wish to play mono-Nurgle or triple Hell Drake ho down you've got little in the competitive department left. The codex actually seemed to become more limiting, and just added a bunch more useless units and one useful one.
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Post by: jackblg
Stormbreed wrote:I have 13,000 points of Nids that I'll be selling off if they don't give us some kind of buff army wide. Right now it all looks like nerfs.
Oh people can only snap shot at my 5+ armor/cover model? Who cares, 10 marines will still double tap that guy down before he makes combat, once he's in combat, he'll rely on rends to actually do anything and die a horrible death.
I'm very disheartened so far.
I agree with you. its a nice thing to have but its not going to help it unless your hiding behind some form of cover..
iam also a lil disheartened, ah well not long to go then we can see how good/bad it really is...
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Post by: Zach
Im looking forward to it. I dont like the idea that maybe my bugs suddenly start taking bathsalts, but who knows the full picture?
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Post by: Roci
Well, if most of this is right. I won't have to buy to much as I already run Nidzilla.
If they do take bio away I hope the hive tyrant has better base stats. Atleast better BS. I always used zoans in a spore to handle av 14... and it was so so because you have to pass your test... not have it denied... then roll to hit.. then armor pen roll.. lots of chance to miss.. doing this with 1 shot at bs3 costing me both my warp charges seems a little rough.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
This from the black library:
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/The-Great-Devourer.html
Looks like Toxin Sacs are 10 points
Adrenal Glands and Acid Blood are 15 points
And Regeneration is a WHOPPING 30 points! Whoa!
If the rumor that the guy from Warseer holds true, for that point value Regen had better be WAY more than just IWND. I'm thinking Feel No Pain and Regen lost wounds on a 5+ each, for it to be worth 30. Otherwise, forget it.
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Post by: streamdragon
Edit: oh thank goodness. I totally read that wrong.
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Post by: ductvader
tetrisphreak wrote:This from the black library:
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/The-Great-Devourer.html
Looks like Toxin Sacs are 10 points
Adrenal Glands and Acid Blood are 15 points
And Regeneration is a WHOPPING 30 points! Whoa!
If the rumor that the guy from Warseer holds true, for that point value Regen had better be WAY more than just IWND. I'm thinking Feel No Pain and Regen lost wounds on a 5+ each, for it to be worth 30. Otherwise, forget it.
It probably confers it will not die then, previously it was only 30 points for a tyrrano. (2+ sv)
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Post by: tetrisphreak
 streamdragon wrote:...
dot dot dot
Dot Dot Dot
Dot Dot MOTHERFRELLING DOT
"Up to one".
Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands are both on the list.
I think that just means you cant take toxin sacs or adrenals twice. Not that it should matter rules wise, but that's how i read that part.
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Post by: DO IT TO IT
Is that it? Please don't tell me those 4 are all the biomorphs in the codex?
e: And yeah, it's up to one "of each." That part is fine.
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Post by: streamdragon
tetrisphreak wrote: streamdragon wrote:...
dot dot dot
Dot Dot Dot
Dot Dot MOTHERFRELLING DOT
"Up to one".
Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands are both on the list.
I think that just means you cant take toxin sacs or adrenals twice. Not that it should matter rules wise, but that's how i read that part.
No, no. you're right. I totally read it wrong and edited my original post accordingly.
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Post by: ductvader
...and still BS0...even if they have access to other disciplines, GW is sure telling you not to risk it.
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Post by: pretre
DO IT TO IT wrote:Is that it? Please don't tell me those 4 are all the biomorphs in the codex?
e: And yeah, it's up to one "of each." That part is fine.
Those are the four available normal Biomorphs. There's apex ones, etc so on.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Reading the past few pages of this thread reminds me of IMDB's sub-communities for movies that bomb.
Stage 1: Initial announcement of product. Be jaded.
Stage 2: Details begin to trickle in. Get cautiously optimistic.
Stage 3: Details start flowing. Red-flags show up for those still jaded, the optimistic go into wise-man mode and lash out against the jaded for making assumptions without knowing all the details.
Stage 4: A final bombshell of information is released, for movies this is the various trailers. All gak hits the fan. Many of the optimistic give in to their grief but the most stalwart insist that we still don't know all the details yet. Maybe the trailer was just bad. The marketing team is bad. The film could still be good! The jaded are bitterly laughing their asses off.
Stage 5. Community embraces the horror. The blame-game begins for the crestfallen, while the most stalwart, those who simply refuse to be phased, spend months insisting that the movie wasn't that bad; defending its flaws and attacking other members of the community (for 40K, this will be the group of people who insist for months that the community needs more time to judge the codex after its release. "We don't know all the best builds yet! Give it some time! There's still strong combos that we might have missed! Dataslates and expansion!" Just because there's no 2++ invuln cheese doesn't mean its bad!)
We're at stage 4 ITT.
Anyway, some of the flashbacks in here are disingenuous. I remember the rumor thread for Eldar, and I remember the rumor thread for Chaos Space Marines. By the time it was getting close to release time, hype for the Eldar codex was pretty positive because the rumors for it were very positive. Hype for the CSM codex was low because most rumors pointed to it being 4E CSM with Heldrakes.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
DO IT TO IT wrote:Is that it? Please don't tell me those 4 are all the biomorphs in the codex?
e: And yeah, it's up to one "of each." That part is fine.
According to the white dwarf scan of the Warriors entry, there's also "melee bio weapons" "basic bio cannons" and i'm assuming "advanced bio cannons" so there will be those charts. Also unit-specific wargear can appear in the army list entries, such as flesh hooks appearing in the warriors entry but not in the termagants or hormagants one.
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Post by: Zookie
So it looks like the new rumors are pretty certain that toxin sacs will remain the same and adrenal glands will be furious charge + fleet.
How do you think this will effect creatures that already have fleet. Do you think it will just be a useless overlap or will the combo have an additional effect?
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Post by: streamdragon
ductvader wrote:...and still BS0...even if they have access to other disciplines, GW is sure telling you not to risk it.
The Broodlord always knows "The Horror", according to that page, so no, there is no risk involved. Do we know what "The Horror" actually does yet? I'm guessing it gives him Fear. 
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Post by: tetrisphreak
streamdragon wrote: ductvader wrote:...and still BS0...even if they have access to other disciplines, GW is sure telling you not to risk it.
The Broodlord always knows "The Horror", according to that page, so no, there is no risk involved. Do we know what "The Horror" actually does yet? I'm guessing it gives him Fear.
Forces a pinning check with a - Ld modifier, if Warseer guy is to be believed.
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Post by: ductvader
streamdragon wrote: ductvader wrote:...and still BS0...even if they have access to other disciplines, GW is sure telling you not to risk it.
The Broodlord always knows "The Horror", according to that page, so no, there is no risk involved. Do we know what "The Horror" actually does yet? I'm guessing it gives him Fear.
Well the risk would be in attempting to trade it for a discipline, as it currently stands, a broodlord can reliably get endurance or iron arm with ML2, but one power and continued BS0 means that you don't want to try taking anything other than the horror.
Previously the horror did what again?
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Post by: streamdragon
tetrisphreak wrote: streamdragon wrote: ductvader wrote:...and still BS0...even if they have access to other disciplines, GW is sure telling you not to risk it.
The Broodlord always knows "The Horror", according to that page, so no, there is no risk involved. Do we know what "The Horror" actually does yet? I'm guessing it gives him Fear.
Forces a pinning check with a - Ld modifier, if Warseer guy is to be believed.
Interesting. I guess that's one way to save your Stealers from overwatch, since I don't think Pinned units can fire Overwatch.
Of course, now you just have to find something that isn't immune...
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Post by: ductvader
streamdragon wrote: tetrisphreak wrote: streamdragon wrote: ductvader wrote:...and still BS0...even if they have access to other disciplines, GW is sure telling you not to risk it.
The Broodlord always knows "The Horror", according to that page, so no, there is no risk involved. Do we know what "The Horror" actually does yet? I'm guessing it gives him Fear.
Forces a pinning check with a - Ld modifier, if Warseer guy is to be believed.
Interesting. I guess that's one way to save your Stealers from overwatch, since I don't think Pinned units can fire Overwatch.
Of course, now you just have to find something that isn't immune...
I believe that's one of the few things a pinned unit can do.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
Pinned units can fire overwatch, but assaulting them in cover does NOT reduce your initiative. So if the power goes off as planned it's a roundabout way to give genestealers frag grenades again.
Also in the 5th ed book the horror is a hive tyrant power that causes a unit to take a morale check at regular leadership. No big whoop.
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Post by: Therion
tetrisphreak wrote:Posit wrote:I think it's adorable that after all this time people are still giving GW the benefit of the doubt.
Look at the home-run codices that were Tau, Eldar, and to a lesser degree, Space Marines. We have all the reason in the world to believe that Tyranids would follow the trend of fun codices with useful and powerful units. I'm still not convinced this isn't true, but we won't know for sure until everyone interested has had the book and read for themselves the combos and unit synergies.
Call me naive, but i'm still optimistic that we'll get something at least as playable as Codex: Space Marines.
Calling the Eldar a home run codex is atrocious. Phil Kelly can't make a decently balanced book to save his life and is in my opinion the worst games designer on their payroll. Just because Eldar have won a few major tournaments getting single handedly carried by a 1000 point death star unit or spammed dedicated transports doesn't make the book any better, in fact it only makes it worse. Since so much stuff there sucks and wasn't fixed at all (or even attempted to be fixed) from the previous edition where they also sucked it would've been more logical just having everything suck. Eldar are just another CSM book, but their high end potential fits the current meta better.
Necron weren't a good book either, literally noone who ever plays at any sort of competitive events ever use anything else than Scythes, Wraiths and Annihilation Barges. 70% of the unit entries are gathering dust.
The guy who designed Tau however should be allowed to write all the 40K army books, since he clearly knows what armies need to have in order to compete in 6th edition. He gives options to deal with everything and charges a pretty accurately pin pointed points cost for each of those options. He failed on a couple units too, but maybe he's one of those Tau guys who just think Vespid and ugly mercenaries in general is a stupid idea.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Yeah, pinned units can fire overwatch.
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Post by: streamdragon
ductvader wrote: streamdragon wrote: tetrisphreak wrote: streamdragon wrote: ductvader wrote:...and still BS0...even if they have access to other disciplines, GW is sure telling you not to risk it.
The Broodlord always knows "The Horror", according to that page, so no, there is no risk involved. Do we know what "The Horror" actually does yet? I'm guessing it gives him Fear.
Forces a pinning check with a - Ld modifier, if Warseer guy is to be believed.
Interesting. I guess that's one way to save your Stealers from overwatch, since I don't think Pinned units can fire Overwatch.
Of course, now you just have to find something that isn't immune...
I believe that's one of the few things a pinned unit can do.
Yup, you're right.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Therion wrote:The guy who designed Tau however should be allowed to write all the 40K army books, since he clearly knows what armies need to play in 6th edition. He gives options to deal with everything and charges a pretty accurately pin pointed points cost for each of those options.
Dunno. Dark Angels was pretty damn dull. Though that may just be because the Dark Angels as an army are pretty damn dull, rather than it being Vetock's fault. Still don't understand why they have their own codex, besides $$$.
50012
Post by: Crimson
I have to disagree. They have a lot of synergy shenaginans (banners, de-buff grenades, Darkshroud, timed teleports and beacons on bikes) which the player has to pay attention to in order to get most out of the army.
57667
Post by: MadmanMSU
Therion wrote: tetrisphreak wrote:Posit wrote:I think it's adorable that after all this time people are still giving GW the benefit of the doubt.
Look at the home-run codices that were Tau, Eldar, and to a lesser degree, Space Marines. We have all the reason in the world to believe that Tyranids would follow the trend of fun codices with useful and powerful units. I'm still not convinced this isn't true, but we won't know for sure until everyone interested has had the book and read for themselves the combos and unit synergies. Call me naive, but i'm still optimistic that we'll get something at least as playable as Codex: Space Marines.
Calling the Eldar a home run codex is atrocious. Phil Kelly can't make a decently balanced book to save his life and is in my opinion the worst games designer on their payroll. Just because Eldar have won a few major tournaments getting single handedly carried by a 1000 point death star unit or spammed dedicated transports doesn't make the book any better, in fact it only makes it worse. Since so much stuff there sucks and wasn't fixed at all (or even attempted to be fixed) from the previous edition where they also sucked it would've been more logical just having everything suck. Eldar are just another CSM book, but their high end potential fits the current meta better. Necron weren't a good book either, literally noone who ever plays at any sort of competitive events ever use anything else than Scythes, Wraiths and Annihilation Barges. 70% of the unit entries are gathering dust. The guy who designed Tau however should be allowed to write all the 40K army books, since he clearly knows what armies need to have in order to compete in 6th edition. He gives options to deal with everything and charges a pretty accurately pin pointed points cost for each of those options. He failed on a couple units too, but maybe he's one of those Tau guys who just think Vespid and ugly mercenaries in general is a stupid idea.
QFT. Jeremy Vetock did Tau. Keep in mind, he also did Dark Angels, so take that how you will. I have a friend who attended Games Day awhile back (last summer-ish) who got to talk to Vetock himself. He really grilled him on the Dark Angels codex, and (according to him) he says Vetock was genuinely surprised and somewhat saddened that people found the codex lacking. So while I think Vetock has the potential to be a good codex writer, I'm not sure its with intention...
5859
Post by: Ravenous D
No Ymgarls, no spores, no doom, no biomancy on tyrants?
That's concerning...
51881
Post by: BlaxicanX
I'm willing to give Vetock a chance. He did do a really good job on Tau, and Dark Angels was pretty boring, but he is still an aspiring new writer. If I have to give Kelly a pass for CSM (bar none, the worst codex of this edition), and Cruddace a pass for Tyranids, then Vetock should certainly get a pass.
Frankly, I think hiring new blood is the best thing GW could do. I have respect for Cruddace and Kelly, but I think they're already washed up. Let someone excited and fresh take the mantle.
78216
Post by: cyberjonesy
Therion wrote: tetrisphreak wrote:Posit wrote:I think it's adorable that after all this time people are still giving GW the benefit of the doubt.
Look at the home-run codices that were Tau, Eldar, and to a lesser degree, Space Marines. We have all the reason in the world to believe that Tyranids would follow the trend of fun codices with useful and powerful units. I'm still not convinced this isn't true, but we won't know for sure until everyone interested has had the book and read for themselves the combos and unit synergies.
Call me naive, but i'm still optimistic that we'll get something at least as playable as Codex: Space Marines.
Calling the Eldar a home run codex is atrocious. Phil Kelly can't make a decently balanced book to save his life and is in my opinion the worst games designer on their payroll. Just because Eldar have won a few major tournaments getting single handedly carried by a 1000 point death star unit or spammed dedicated transports doesn't make the book any better, in fact it only makes it worse. Since so much stuff there sucks and wasn't fixed at all (or even attempted to be fixed) from the previous edition where they also sucked it would've been more logical just having everything suck. Eldar are just another CSM book, but their high end potential fits the current meta better.
Necron weren't a good book either, literally noone who ever plays at any sort of competitive events ever use anything else than Scythes, Wraiths and Annihilation Barges. 70% of the unit entries are gathering dust.
The guy who designed Tau however should be allowed to write all the 40K army books, since he clearly knows what armies need to have in order to compete in 6th edition. He gives options to deal with everything and charges a pretty accurately pin pointed points cost for each of those options. He failed on a couple units too, but maybe he's one of those Tau guys who just think Vespid and ugly mercenaries in general is a stupid idea.
I disagree. Tau is a really broken codex. while alot of thought has went into making exciting unit combos , game balance was broken in the process and now tau armies crushes every other armies.
51881
Post by: BlaxicanX
That's not Tau's fault, though. That's 6th Edition's fault. Tau was made into the premiere shooting army of the game (which fits the fluff). It just so happens that this edition we're in put shooting on this massive pedestal while doing everything it could to crap on assault without just outright getting rid of it. The only thing I would hold against Tau is its plethora of ignores cover. I think the army and the meta as a whole would have been better off without that mechanic being so prevalent.
25360
Post by: ductvader
cyberjonesy wrote:I disagree. Tau is a really broken codex. while alot of thought has went into making exciting unit combos , game balance was broken in the process and now tau armies crushes every other armies.
Tau? If you were talking Eldar you might have a case, but Tau? The army is fairly balanced, and with the return of both the superhorde and the Monster Mash, Riptides and Broadsides are going to start suffering even more.
Your average Tau list can easily handle the mixes of bugs, but quickly folds to all MC or all horde.
26170
Post by: davethepak
cyberjonesy wrote: Therion wrote: tetrisphreak wrote:Posit wrote:I think it's adorable that after all this time people are still giving GW the benefit of the doubt.
Look at the home-run codices that were Tau, Eldar, and to a lesser degree, Space Marines. We have all the reason in the world to believe that Tyranids would follow the trend of fun codices with useful and powerful units. I'm still not convinced this isn't true, but we won't know for sure until everyone interested has had the book and read for themselves the combos and unit synergies.
Call me naive, but i'm still optimistic that we'll get something at least as playable as Codex: Space Marines.
Calling the Eldar a home run codex is atrocious. Phil Kelly can't make a decently balanced book to save his life and is in my opinion the worst games designer on their payroll. Just because Eldar have won a few major tournaments getting single handedly carried by a 1000 point death star unit or spammed dedicated transports doesn't make the book any better, in fact it only makes it worse. Since so much stuff there sucks and wasn't fixed at all (or even attempted to be fixed) from the previous edition where they also sucked it would've been more logical just having everything suck. Eldar are just another CSM book, but their high end potential fits the current meta better.
Necron weren't a good book either, literally noone who ever plays at any sort of competitive events ever use anything else than Scythes, Wraiths and Annihilation Barges. 70% of the unit entries are gathering dust.
The guy who designed Tau however should be allowed to write all the 40K army books, since he clearly knows what armies need to have in order to compete in 6th edition. He gives options to deal with everything and charges a pretty accurately pin pointed points cost for each of those options. He failed on a couple units too, but maybe he's one of those Tau guys who just think Vespid and ugly mercenaries in general is a stupid idea.
I disagree. Tau is a really broken codex. while alot of thought has went into making exciting unit combos , game balance was broken in the process and now tau armies crushes every other armies.
I have not lost a single game to the new tau yet.
And the new tau get owned by a good eldar list (ignoring cover serpent shields are yawn against imperials, but absolutely brutal to tau).
But back on topic...
Most of the recent books support a lot of lists (yes, there may be an OP list in each of them, but....) there are still lots of good solid builds.
Here is hoping the ned dex has a lot of good solid builds.
Regarding the BL pic, I really want to see the price costs for the stealer upgrades under the popup.
4884
Post by: Therion
cyberjonesy wrote: Therion wrote: tetrisphreak wrote:Posit wrote:I think it's adorable that after all this time people are still giving GW the benefit of the doubt.
Look at the home-run codices that were Tau, Eldar, and to a lesser degree, Space Marines. We have all the reason in the world to believe that Tyranids would follow the trend of fun codices with useful and powerful units. I'm still not convinced this isn't true, but we won't know for sure until everyone interested has had the book and read for themselves the combos and unit synergies.
Call me naive, but i'm still optimistic that we'll get something at least as playable as Codex: Space Marines.
Calling the Eldar a home run codex is atrocious. Phil Kelly can't make a decently balanced book to save his life and is in my opinion the worst games designer on their payroll. Just because Eldar have won a few major tournaments getting single handedly carried by a 1000 point death star unit or spammed dedicated transports doesn't make the book any better, in fact it only makes it worse. Since so much stuff there sucks and wasn't fixed at all (or even attempted to be fixed) from the previous edition where they also sucked it would've been more logical just having everything suck. Eldar are just another CSM book, but their high end potential fits the current meta better.
Necron weren't a good book either, literally noone who ever plays at any sort of competitive events ever use anything else than Scythes, Wraiths and Annihilation Barges. 70% of the unit entries are gathering dust.
The guy who designed Tau however should be allowed to write all the 40K army books, since he clearly knows what armies need to have in order to compete in 6th edition. He gives options to deal with everything and charges a pretty accurately pin pointed points cost for each of those options. He failed on a couple units too, but maybe he's one of those Tau guys who just think Vespid and ugly mercenaries in general is a stupid idea.
I disagree. Tau is a really broken codex. while alot of thought has went into making exciting unit combos , game balance was broken in the process and now tau armies crushes every other armies.
You got it backwards. The Tau codex has an internal synergy mechanic in the markerlights that makes it interesting (you're forced to have your units work as a team), and the Codex has multiple useful units in every force organisation slot. It also has additional force multipliers from the HQ options for additional synergy, plus a 'help your buddies' overwatch mechanic. The writer of the book also seems to understand all the different types of opponents you might face during a 40K tournament, and therefore gave units options for skyfire, interceptor, and even stuff like hit and run. There's nothing wrong with having options for everything, as long as they cost points. All Tau players sacrifice something to be able to cram the stuff they want in. To be fair, a 40K codex doesn't get any better than this, and it probably never has. Good job Jeremy Vetock. You're the man.
Just because the other GW games designers don't even understand what synergy means, and have never, ever, played at any sorts of tournaments ever or are even aware what tournament lists look like, doesn't make the Tau a broken codex. How about the other designers look at their books and wonder why people don't consider them competitive or why people are using the units they are using? Phil Kelly (despite having played Skaven at a UK GT a decade ago) for example writes so utterly boring and trash books with no internal mechanisms whatsoever that it makes me cringe just thinking about it. He's a relic from an age where the only change in a codex update was the number of shots on an assault cannon and a psychic power or two. All of the units he has success with seem completely accidental, and the reason they bring the overall power level of the book up is because they're so blatantly underpriced compared to everything else that it just underlines the designer's incompetence in having any sorts of internal balance or cohesion. If the Serpent Shield wasn't what it was and Eldar didn't have the unintentional advantage of having a bunch of battle brothers on the allies matrix that book would be one of the laughing stocks of the edition alongside the CSM which is only good for Heldrakes.
29036
Post by: Zookie
15 for AG seems way too high (assuming it is furious charge and fleet like the rumors are saying) for a creature with fleet. It was only 10 last edition for MC and that included an initiative boost back in 5th. Either this is a very badly priced upgrade by about 10 points or AG will do something extra for creatures that already have fleet. My guess would be either grants the crusader rule or add 3 inches to charge rolls. Most likely crusader between the two though.
57667
Post by: MadmanMSU
Zookie wrote:
15 for AG seems way too high (assuming it is furious charge and fleet like the rumors are saying) for a creature with fleet. It was only 10 last edition for MC and that included an initiative boost back in 5th. Either this is a very badly priced upgrade by about 10 points or AG will do something extra for creatures that already have fleet. My guess would be either grants the crusader rule or add 3 inches to charge rolls. Most likely crusader between the two though.
Your optimism is amusing, but not enough to overcome my cynicism.
51881
Post by: BlaxicanX
If current AG gives fleet+furious charge, and fleet is re-rolls to charge rolls, then what I see them doing is having AG give something useless like a +3" to run if you already have fleet.
53744
Post by: rollawaythestone
 BlaxicanX wrote:If current AG gives fleet+furious charge, and fleet is re-rolls to charge rolls, then what I see them doing is having AG give something useless like a +3" to run if you already have fleet.
Then what about Hormagaunts that already have Fleet, and already have +3 to Run with Bounding Leap?
25360
Post by: ductvader
BlaxicanX wrote:If current AG gives fleet+furious charge, and fleet is re-rolls to charge rolls, then what I see them doing is having AG give something useless like a +3" to run if you already have fleet.
Personally I think we're looking at an oversight in options, it makes much more sense for the whole brood's glands to be bought outside of the broodlord's options.
17901
Post by: Vhalyar
rollawaythestone wrote: BlaxicanX wrote:If current AG gives fleet+furious charge, and fleet is re-rolls to charge rolls, then what I see them doing is having AG give something useless like a +3" to run if you already have fleet.
Then what about Hormagaunts that already have Fleet, and already have +3 to Run with Bounding Leap?
Then they grow wings and fly into a better codex.
47013
Post by: Blood Hawk
Therion wrote:
You got it backwards. The Tau codex has an internal synergy mechanic in the markerlights that makes it interesting (you're forced to have your units work as a team), and the Codex has multiple useful units in every slot force organisation slot. It also has additional force multipliers from the HQ options for additional synergy, plus a 'help your buddies' overwatch mechanic. The writer of the book also seems to understand all the different types of opponents you might face during a 40K tournament, and therefore gave units options for skyfire, interceptor, and even stuff like hit and run. There's nothing wrong with having options for everything, as long as they cost points. All Tau players sacrifice something to be able to cram the stuff they want in. To be fair, a 40K codex doesn't get any better than this, and it probably never has.
Just because the other GW games designers don't even understand what synergy means, and have never, ever, played at any sorts of tournaments ever or are even aware what tournament lists look like, doesn't make the Tau a broken codex. How about the other designers look at their books and wonder why people don't consider them competitive or why people are using the units they are using? Phil Kelly (despite having played Skaven at a UK GT a decade ago) for example writes so utterly boring and trash books with no internal mechanisms whatsoever that it makes me cringe just thinking about it. Phil Kelly is a relic from an age where the only change in a codex update was the number of shots on an assault cannon and a psychic power or two. All of the units he has success with seem completely accidental, and the reason they bring the overall power level of the book up is because they're so blatantly underpriced compared to everything else that it just underlines the designer's incompetence in having any sorts of internal balance or cohesion. If the Serpent Shield wasn't what it was and Eldar didn't have the unintentional advantage of having a bunch of battle brothers on the allies matrix that book would be one of the laughing stocks of the edition alongside the CSM which is only good for Heldrakes.
You can't give all the credit for the tau codex synergy to the the new guy, markerlights have existed for 3 codexs for tau. So the "other GW games designers" do know what synergy is, at least for tau. As far as Phil Kelly's codexs having horrible internal balance, so does tau. No one takes the flyers, or auxiliaries, or stealth suits, or any tau vehicle that is not a skyray really in any competitive lists I have seen. Most of the special characters never see the table. Everybody is using riptides, tau commanders, broadsides, something with markerlights, and firewarriors. Hell if you didn't have to take troop units no one would bring firewarriors either. Also most of the new stuff for the army push it towards being less mobile and more a straight gunline, which honestly is boring to play against in any game. Not an overall improvement IMO.
Though as someone who has played tau for 3 codexs, the new guy still didn't fix my biggest issue with tau. I love the fluff for the army, love the models, but on the table top they just get boring to play. They have a one dimensional army that is working so dam well because the that one dimension is really good due to the core rules. Every game with tau plays the same, so much that I don't play the army that much due to being good at shooting and only shooting. I have to switch it up after playing tau for 3-4 games and play a different army like space marines but otherwise I just get board of the same thing every game.
45327
Post by: CalgarsPimpHand
Therion wrote:cyberjonesy wrote: Therion wrote: tetrisphreak wrote:Posit wrote:I think it's adorable that after all this time people are still giving GW the benefit of the doubt.
Look at the home-run codices that were Tau, Eldar, and to a lesser degree, Space Marines. We have all the reason in the world to believe that Tyranids would follow the trend of fun codices with useful and powerful units. I'm still not convinced this isn't true, but we won't know for sure until everyone interested has had the book and read for themselves the combos and unit synergies.
Call me naive, but i'm still optimistic that we'll get something at least as playable as Codex: Space Marines.
Calling the Eldar a home run codex is atrocious. Phil Kelly can't make a decently balanced book to save his life and is in my opinion the worst games designer on their payroll. Just because Eldar have won a few major tournaments getting single handedly carried by a 1000 point death star unit or spammed dedicated transports doesn't make the book any better, in fact it only makes it worse. Since so much stuff there sucks and wasn't fixed at all (or even attempted to be fixed) from the previous edition where they also sucked it would've been more logical just having everything suck. Eldar are just another CSM book, but their high end potential fits the current meta better.
Necron weren't a good book either, literally noone who ever plays at any sort of competitive events ever use anything else than Scythes, Wraiths and Annihilation Barges. 70% of the unit entries are gathering dust.
The guy who designed Tau however should be allowed to write all the 40K army books, since he clearly knows what armies need to have in order to compete in 6th edition. He gives options to deal with everything and charges a pretty accurately pin pointed points cost for each of those options. He failed on a couple units too, but maybe he's one of those Tau guys who just think Vespid and ugly mercenaries in general is a stupid idea.
I disagree. Tau is a really broken codex. while alot of thought has went into making exciting unit combos , game balance was broken in the process and now tau armies crushes every other armies.
You got it backwards. The Tau codex has an internal synergy mechanic in the markerlights that makes it interesting (you're forced to have your units work as a team), and the Codex has multiple useful units in every slot force organisation slot. It also has additional force multipliers from the HQ options for additional synergy, plus a 'help your buddies' overwatch mechanic. The writer of the book also seems to understand all the different types of opponents you might face during a 40K tournament, and therefore gave units options for skyfire, interceptor, and even stuff like hit and run. There's nothing wrong with having options for everything, as long as they cost points. All Tau players sacrifice something to be able to cram the stuff they want in. To be fair, a 40K codex doesn't get any better than this, and it probably never has.
Just because the other GW games designers don't even understand what synergy means, and have never, ever, played at any sorts of tournaments ever or are even aware what tournament lists look like, doesn't make the Tau a broken codex. How about the other designers look at their books and wonder why people don't consider them competitive or why people are using the units they are using? Phil Kelly (despite having played Skaven at a UK GT a decade ago) for example writes so utterly boring and trash books with no internal mechanisms whatsoever that it makes me cringe just thinking about it. He's a relic from an age where the only change in a codex update was the number of shots on an assault cannon and a psychic power or two. All of the units he has success with seem completely accidental, and the reason they bring the overall power level of the book up is because they're so blatantly underpriced compared to everything else that it just underlines the designer's incompetence in having any sorts of internal balance or cohesion. If the Serpent Shield wasn't what it was and Eldar didn't have the unintentional advantage of having a bunch of battle brothers on the allies matrix that book would be one of the laughing stocks of the edition alongside the CSM which is only good for Heldrakes.
THANK YOU. Crystallized my thoughts on the subject perfectly. Does the exalt button actually do anything? Because you have now been exalted.
Stand-alone, I think the Tau codex is easily the best of the edition in terms of fluff, internal balance, options, power level, and overall fun. It's the Allies system and supplements that open up room for abuse, and you can't blame Vetock for those.
Edit: Ok maybe I was a little over the top, Blood Hawk brings up some good points. But to me the Tau codex looks, feels, and plays like Tau, but I suppose it doesn't give you a lot of room to be adventurous.
16387
Post by: Manchu
It seems that people think "balanced" means a dex has at least three best options.
29036
Post by: Zookie
rollawaythestone wrote: BlaxicanX wrote:If current AG gives fleet+furious charge, and fleet is re-rolls to charge rolls, then what I see them doing is having AG give something useless like a +3" to run if you already have fleet.
Then what about Hormagaunts that already have Fleet, and already have +3 to Run with Bounding Leap?
They become low rent beasts. Reroll run roll then add 6 inches.
4884
Post by: Therion
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Edit: Ok maybe I was a little over the top, Blood Hawk brings up some good points. But to me the Tau codex looks, feels, and plays like Tau, but I suppose it doesn't give you a lot of room to be adventurous.
You weren't. Every codex will always have superior choices depending on how the meta looks like. The fact just is that Tau are different than everyone else in that they have so much more useful stuff to choose from than others. The book is also very adaptive and I'm sure will survive the entire edition as a competitive force, while many other armies are one new army book or rules supplement away from being sent to the trash can.
Blood Hawk wrote:Everybody is using riptides, tau commanders, broadsides, something with markerlights, and firewarriors
I'm the one who usually makes generalisations like these, but with Tau this is just incorrect. Everyone uses Riptides, you got that right, but the competitive amount varies from 2 to 4 and their equipment is in no way set in stone and many people use them differently. Likewise, not everyone uses the Tau Commander the same way (buff commander or shooty on his own) and it's feasible not using the Commander at all. I personally don't use Broadsides ever with Tau and go with the 2 or 3 Skyrays instead, and I don't use Fire Warriors, instead going with the Kroot and/or Crisis troops.
29036
Post by: Zookie
Manchu wrote:It seems that people think "balanced" means a dex has at least three best options.
Actually yes. A truly balanced codex would offer a number of choices of war gear and each one would fulfill a different roll that was in line with their costs. A bad option that you will never take does not balance out a good option you will always take. Since not codex has really managed this it is not reasonable to expect it but it is still the ideal. Automatically Appended Next Post: MadmanMSU wrote:Zookie wrote:
15 for AG seems way too high (assuming it is furious charge and fleet like the rumors are saying) for a creature with fleet. It was only 10 last edition for MC and that included an initiative boost back in 5th. Either this is a very badly priced upgrade by about 10 points or AG will do something extra for creatures that already have fleet. My guess would be either grants the crusader rule or add 3 inches to charge rolls. Most likely crusader between the two though.
Your optimism is amusing, but not enough to overcome my cynicism.
Ah boo, the world has to many cynics as it is. Anyway you have to be an optimist to be a Tyranid player. If you were truly a cynic you would not be checking out the rumor posts and you would have ditched Tyranids for a Tau-Eldar list month ago
71478
Post by: WhiteDog
Manchu wrote:It seems that people think "balanced" means a dex has at least three best options.
From my point of view it's a design flaw coming from all codexes. Troop choice have no kill potential and almost no strategical value anymore (unless they have a Str 7 weapon at the very least), which makes them completly useless (or almost) before all the new big toys coming out from GW since some years now (since the Trygon I guess). Add to that the last trend to flexibilize the army structure, with allies and more and more units (big ones, termagaunts will never be available in HS I'm pretty sure) who can be used in various position (mostly both HS and Elite). Just look at last GW battle report.
People here are, in my opinion, whining because they feel that with that trend, most of the standard units of the codex will be useless : ravener, warrior, lictor, hormagaunts, genestealer will most likely never be field in tournament play.
But I'm not sure the codex (from the rumors) will be so weak, since we now get elite MC (Haruspex and his friend), fast attack MC and cheaper MC all over the board (and especially the carnifex who might be a very good HS choice). We will just all have to play nidzilla.
24153
Post by: tetrisphreak
I love playing Nidzilla, it's my favorite way to field bugs. However, if that's the ONLY build worth putting together in the new book i'll be disappointed.
25360
Post by: ductvader
tetrisphreak wrote:I love playing Nidzilla, it's my favorite way to field bugs. However, if that's the ONLY build worth putting together in the new book i'll be disappointed.
180 termagants fits in under 721 points...Nidzilla will most definitely not be the only way to play this game.
4884
Post by: Therion
tetrisphreak wrote:I love playing Nidzilla, it's my favorite way to field bugs. However, if that's the ONLY build worth putting together in the new book i'll be disappointed.
How come? You've already declared that a 1000 point death star that needs allies to function and one vehicle with a broken special rule is all that it takes to make an army book a home run, so surely Nidzilla with 5 different types of big monsters would be a baseball idiom for the ages 
26519
Post by: xttz
If that Genestealer / The Horror / Pinning thing turns out to be true it could be pretty amazing. Not only could it be used to neutralise nearby units when outflanking, but I'm sure you can dish it out from other units. Imagine a Hive Tyrant using it to clear a path for a Hormaguant wave, or the Swarmlord suppressing a unit it wants to charge itself.
71478
Post by: WhiteDog
ductvader wrote: tetrisphreak wrote:I love playing Nidzilla, it's my favorite way to field bugs. However, if that's the ONLY build worth putting together in the new book i'll be disappointed.
180 termagants fits in under 721 points...Nidzilla will most definitely not be the only way to play this game.
Not if they kill themselves
55015
Post by: The Shadow
As if they hid the points costs of the models (and the toxin sacs/ AG)... COME ON.
3330
Post by: Kirasu
 xttz wrote:If that Genestealer / The Horror / Pinning thing turns out to be true it could be pretty amazing. Not only could it be used to neutralise nearby units when outflanking, but I'm sure you can dish it out from other units. Imagine a Hive Tyrant using it to clear a path for a Hormaguant wave, or the Swarmlord suppressing a unit it wants to charge itself.
Or you just run into the same problem EVERY other pinning ability suffers from.. Fearless and stubborn or vehicles. Basing a strategy on pinning is an easy way to lose a game
25360
Post by: ductvader
WhiteDog wrote: ductvader wrote: tetrisphreak wrote:I love playing Nidzilla, it's my favorite way to field bugs. However, if that's the ONLY build worth putting together in the new book i'll be disappointed.
180 termagants fits in under 721 points...Nidzilla will most definitely not be the only way to play this game.
Not if they kill themselves
Well, you've yet to add the 1200+ points of synapse creatures and other infantry that can eat your face as well.
30508
Post by: Captain Avatar
Therion wrote:CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Edit: Ok maybe I was a little over the top, Blood Hawk brings up some good points. But to me the Tau codex looks, feels, and plays like Tau, but I suppose it doesn't give you a lot of room to be adventurous.
You weren't. Every codex will always have superior choices depending on how the meta looks like. The fact just is that Tau are different than everyone else in that they have so much more useful stuff to choose from than others. The book is also very adaptive and I'm sure will survive the entire edition as a competitive force, while many other armies are one new army book or rules supplement away from being sent to the trash can.
Blood Hawk wrote:Everybody is using riptides, tau commanders, broadsides, something with markerlights, and firewarriors
I'm the one who usually makes generalisations like these, but with Tau this is just incorrect. Everyone uses Riptides, you got that right, but the competitive amount varies from 2 to 4 and their equipment is in no way set in stone and many people use them differently. Likewise, not everyone uses the Tau Commander the same way (buff commander or shooty on his own) and it's feasible not using the Commander at all. I personally don't use Broadsides ever with Tau and go with the 2 or 3 Skyrays instead, and I don't use Fire Warriors, instead going with the Kroot and/or Crisis troops.
Therion-
An easy button army does not make it the best. Many of the real/veteran Tau players stopped playing Tau because of the horrible job Vetcock did with the book.
A stand and shoot immobile gunline is noy Tau. That is IG....and thats what Vetcock did, he turned the Tau into xenos IG but with a super easy cheat mode built in.
Now I can forgive Vetty's hack job on the Tau to some extent in that it is obvious that GW wants to force players to pay another $50 in order to get the last 2 pages of their codex that allows for more than just a mono-build army/playstyle. Point here is that the Farsihht expansion gave the Tau there mobility and reliable backfield penetration. Though, the farsight enclave only removes the Tau's current static gunline playstyle. It does nothing to fix the unit imbalace created in the core book.
Imo,
It is ok of you like the Tau as they are...
It is ok to like easy button non-challenging armies....
It is not ok to call the current Tau codex "good" or "balanced"
Nor is it right to give Vetcock credit for the base design philosophy
of necessary synergy. Tau had markerlights and synergy before he
was ever hired
Vetcock gave tau the xv104"riptide"(doesn't follow tau naming
convention) and broadsides ruined by being made into missile
spam units.
Vetty gave us a codex hyper focused on exploiting 6th eds shooty
(Vehicles are made of paper) rule set. This makes the Tau rather
fragile in the long run. A new edition or supplement that does away
with "hull points" or that allows reserves to assault will show this.
On topic:
I hope that there will be a reliable lictor leading disruptive strike in
our opponents backfield and a way to run a genestealer cult type
build.
Edit for topic
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Post by: ductvader
Tau posters...please create a Tau thread.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
Therion wrote: tetrisphreak wrote:I love playing Nidzilla, it's my favorite way to field bugs. However, if that's the ONLY build worth putting together in the new book i'll be disappointed.
How come? You've already declared that a 1000 point death star that needs allies to function and one vehicle with a broken special rule is all that it takes to make an army book a home run, so surely Nidzilla with 5 different types of big monsters would be a baseball idiom for the ages
I see what you did there --
I don't see Eldar as "jetseer council" only codex. Yes, that's the 2++ reroll list that wins GT's, but that book has warp spiders, wave serpents, warwalkers, battle focus, EVERY GUN WITH RENDING, yadda yadda yadda. It's NOT a one-trick pony as you presume above. And it regularly gives my tyranids incredible amounts of trouble every time i face it. So maybe there's bias there, but i still feel overall it's a very strong codex. As is Tau. As is Daemons. And to a lesser degree, Codex Marines has it's good units too.
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Post by: gorgon
It occurs to me that Adrenal Glands granting Fleet would be at least a small benefit to Primes and Warriors.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Critics of the Eldar codex don't seem to understand the difference between "optimal" and "viable". JetSeer deathstar+wave serpant spam+wraithknights might be the most competitive build, but that doesn't mean that warp spiders, vaul's wrath platforms, Wraithguard and other units in the codex aren't viable. In any other codex they'd be considered damn good, competitive, almost auto-takes in fact, but it just so happens that there are even better options available for Eldar.
This isn't the same dynamic you see in, say, CSM. Mutilators aren't just "not optimal", they downright suck. Even in a beer n' pretzels game, if you're building your list around the majority of units in CSM that aren't plague marines, heldrakes and spawn, you're at a disadvantage even against casual beer n' pretzel lists from other, better written armies.
Thus the difference in quality between codices. Eldar and Tau are the best written codices of this edition because many of their not-optimal units are at least competitive. You can't say that about every 6th edition codex we've gotten though.
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Post by: davethepak
Well, at least one good thing from the stealer page, is that the broodlord is "add a broodlord" not "upgrade to a broodlord".
So, hopefully he won't be insanely expensive.
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Post by: Roci
ductvader wrote: tetrisphreak wrote:I love playing Nidzilla, it's my favorite way to field bugs. However, if that's the ONLY build worth putting together in the new book i'll be disappointed.
180 termagants fits in under 721 points...Nidzilla will most definitely not be the only way to play this game.
That right there sounds like the third circle of hell. I don't like watching models die, be it 4 points or 400, so between moving them.. trying to keep them 2" apart and watching them die in droves.... I think I might just jump out a window.
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Post by: ductvader
 Roci wrote: ductvader wrote: tetrisphreak wrote:I love playing Nidzilla, it's my favorite way to field bugs. However, if that's the ONLY build worth putting together in the new book i'll be disappointed.
180 termagants fits in under 721 points...Nidzilla will most definitely not be the only way to play this game.
That right there sounds like the third circle of hell. I don't like watching models die, be it 4 points or 400, so between moving them.. trying to keep them 2" apart and watching them die in droves.... I think I might just jump out a window.
Well if you're a great opponent, you'll just let me move the back models to the front to save time (when they're all the same)...is there a term for that? Automatically Appended Next Post: WhiteDog wrote: ductvader wrote: tetrisphreak wrote:I love playing Nidzilla, it's my favorite way to field bugs. However, if that's the ONLY build worth putting together in the new book i'll be disappointed.
180 termagants fits in under 721 points...Nidzilla will most definitely not be the only way to play this game.
Not if they kill themselves
Really, just add 4 primes, done. Synapse is safe for the game.
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Post by: Amoras
Those upgrade costs for a broodlord can't be right, Thats WAY to much
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Post by: Manchu
WhiteDog wrote:Troop choice have no kill potential and almost no strategical value anymore (unless they have a Str 7 weapon at the very least), which makes them completly useless (or almost) before all the new big toys coming out from GW since some years now (since the Trygon I guess).
I think you're on to something there. Design around troop choices is really hampered by the "entitlement" status they have as required by the FOC and scoring rules. GW knows players simply must buy troops. And they haven't been doing much with troop models either.
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Post by: CoteazRox
Didn't see it mentioned here, but seems the ipad version of the codex comes with an army organizer in it:
Finally, the Force Requisition feature allows you to organise your Tyranids collection into an army ready for the tabletop. Just input the units you’d like to use and what weapons you’d like to equip them with, and the Force Requisition feature works out your points for you.
From http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/The-Great-Devourer.html
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Post by: xttz
gorgon wrote:It occurs to me that Adrenal Glands granting Fleet would be at least a small benefit to Primes and Warriors.
And probably pretty fun for a Carnifex brood... charging with fleet and S10 attacks plus HoW? Woop woop
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Zookie wrote:15 for AG seems way too high (assuming it is furious charge and fleet like the rumors are saying) for a creature with fleet.
This is my concern, that they've gone and created a biomorph that grants two abilities (F-Charge/Fleet), and then allowed something that already has Fleet to take it without considering that the unit only gets 50% the benefit for 100% of the cost. A bit like a Ghostglaive (or whatever it's called) on a Wraithknight.
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Post by: Therion
 H.B.M.C. wrote:Zookie wrote:15 for AG seems way too high (assuming it is furious charge and fleet like the rumors are saying) for a creature with fleet.
This is my concern, that they've gone and created a biomorph that grants two abilities (F-Charge/Fleet), and then allowed something that already has Fleet to take it without considering that the unit only gets 50% the benefit for 100% of the cost. A bit like a Ghostglaive (or whatever it's called) on a Wraithknight.
Some home run games designing by Phil Kelly right there. The options on the Wraitknight are laughably priced, but we can bet our asses that an apologist exists that will jump in and try to reason with that madness.
Didn't see it mentioned here, but seems the ipad version of the codex comes with an army organizer in it:
Isn't that just a new name for an army builder? GW makes up a new name and calls it their idea?
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Post by: pretre
Umm. The Army Requisition was their idea. It isn't like this blurb says they invented Army Builders...
Finally, the Force Requisition feature allows you to organise your Tyranids collection into an army ready for the tabletop. Just input the units you’d like to use and what weapons you’d like to equip them with, and the Force Requisition feature works out your points for you.
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Post by: davethepak
H.B.M.C. wrote:Zookie wrote:15 for AG seems way too high (assuming it is furious charge and fleet like the rumors are saying) for a creature with fleet.
This is my concern, that they've gone and created a biomorph that grants two abilities (F-Charge/Fleet), and then allowed something that already has Fleet to take it without considering that the unit only gets 50% the benefit for 100% of the cost. ...
Yeah, I worry about that as well.
I was really worried about the last few books and they turned out pretty good (a bit of internal balance problems, but not terribly so).
here is hoping.
Anyone have an actual link to the thread the guy with the codex is in?
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Post by: Redemption
davethepak wrote:Anyone have an actual link to the thread the guy with the codex is in?
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?387276-Just-confused-Is-the-new-tyranid-codex-not-on-official-sales-yet
Not that he's posting that much, but we'll probably have a more verbose source sooner or later.
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Post by: Therion
pretre wrote:Umm. The Army Requisition was their idea. It isn't like this blurb says they invented Army Builders...
Finally, the Force Requisition feature allows you to organise your Tyranids collection into an army ready for the tabletop. Just input the units you’d like to use and what weapons you’d like to equip them with, and the Force Requisition feature works out your points for you.
What's the difference between an army builder that allows you to build a Tyranid army using the latest codex and the Force Requisition/Army Requisition? He said it allows you to choose a unit and the weapons you want for it and the feature works out the points costs. So what's the difference other than the name, being their idea and all?
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Post by: zaak
IF the rumor is true about Carnifexs being able to attack a transport and the contents then I bet you the HOW (ram transport with shoulder) hits are for transport and his actual attacks are for the contents.
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Post by: CoteazRox
Therion wrote: pretre wrote:Umm. The Army Requisition was their idea. It isn't like this blurb says they invented Army Builders...
Finally, the Force Requisition feature allows you to organise your Tyranids collection into an army ready for the tabletop. Just input the units you’d like to use and what weapons you’d like to equip them with, and the Force Requisition feature works out your points for you.
What's the difference between an army builder that allows you to build a Tyranid army using the latest codex and the Force Requisition/Army Requisition? He said it allows you to choose a unit and the weapons you want for it and the feature works out the points costs. So what's the difference other than the name?
Well, one could assume the tool would be updated at the same time as the codex if required.
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Post by: Deadshot
Therion wrote: pretre wrote:Umm. The Army Requisition was their idea. It isn't like this blurb says they invented Army Builders...
Finally, the Force Requisition feature allows you to organise your Tyranids collection into an army ready for the tabletop. Just input the units you’d like to use and what weapons you’d like to equip them with, and the Force Requisition feature works out your points for you.
What's the difference between an army builder that allows you to build a Tyranid army using the latest codex and the Force Requisition/Army Requisition? He said it allows you to choose a unit and the weapons you want for it and the feature works out the points costs. So what's the difference other than the name, being their idea and all?
The Army Requisition automatically interprets list building in a RAI fashion, so even if something such as the SM Chapter Relics debate comes up, and the force requisition says you can, then you can, as it was designed to allow this. Army Builder or other third party builders can only work from RAW or their own interpretation.
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Post by: Therion
 CoteazRox wrote: Therion wrote: pretre wrote:Umm. The Army Requisition was their idea. It isn't like this blurb says they invented Army Builders...
Finally, the Force Requisition feature allows you to organise your Tyranids collection into an army ready for the tabletop. Just input the units you’d like to use and what weapons you’d like to equip them with, and the Force Requisition feature works out your points for you.
What's the difference between an army builder that allows you to build a Tyranid army using the latest codex and the Force Requisition/Army Requisition? He said it allows you to choose a unit and the weapons you want for it and the feature works out the points costs. So what's the difference other than the name?
Well, one could assume the tool would be updated at the same time as the codex if required.
Excuse me if I'm too curious but what do you mean by that? If the tool is integrated to the digital codex purchase, are you saying you expect them to update digical codices whenever necessary? Are you expecting them to change points costs of those weapon options and units? Are you expecting GW to head to an era where they 'patch' their armies power levels? Does this mean that printed codices are going to go the way of the dodo?
To me it sounds like an army builder that GW tries to re-brand and call their own just like they do with everything else. As far as updating is concerned I'm fairly sure the next update will come in the form of a new codex in the next edition of the game and it won't be free.
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Post by: Ian Sturrock
 Deadshot wrote:The Army Requisition automatically interprets list building in a RAI fashion, so even if something such as the SM Chapter Relics debate comes up, and the force requisition says you can, then you can, as it was designed to allow this. Army Builder or other third party builders can only work from RAW or their own interpretation.
That is pretty useful. So basically you can show up with a digital, verified list if there's a shady rule that happens to have been interpreted in your favour, by the unpaid intern who coded the Army Requisition. Or if there's a shady rule that hasn't been interpreted in your favour, you can do an old-fashioned typed army list and printed codex, and just argue your case, as is traditional.
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Post by: davethepak
Therion wrote: pretre wrote:Umm. The Army Requisition was their idea. It isn't like this blurb says they invented Army Builders...
Finally, the Force Requisition feature allows you to organise your Tyranids collection into an army ready for the tabletop. Just input the units you’d like to use and what weapons you’d like to equip them with, and the Force Requisition feature works out your points for you.
What's the difference between an army builder that allows you to build a Tyranid army using the latest codex and the Force Requisition/Army Requisition? He said it allows you to choose a unit and the weapons you want for it and the feature works out the points costs. So what's the difference other than the name, being their idea and all?
My latest ipad codex was necrons so I have not used it personally, but one of the guys in my group has the latest books, and while its kind of neat, they say it has a ton of drawbacks - like not being able to print out or export lists.
Also, supposedly they have been wrong before....humans make products, and they can make mistakes.
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Post by: Therion
 Ian Sturrock wrote: Deadshot wrote:The Army Requisition automatically interprets list building in a RAI fashion, so even if something such as the SM Chapter Relics debate comes up, and the force requisition says you can, then you can, as it was designed to allow this. Army Builder or other third party builders can only work from RAW or their own interpretation.
That is pretty useful. So basically you can show up with a digital, verified list if there's a shady rule that happens to have been interpreted in your favour, by the unpaid intern who coded the Army Requisition. Or if there's a shady rule that hasn't been interpreted in your favour, you can do an old-fashioned typed army list and printed codex, and just argue your case, as is traditional.
Well that is pretty Games Workshop -like indeed. I guess noone else came up with that before. A portable referee coded by an unpaid intern on his coffee break that can decide shady rules disputes in your favour without providing any logic or reasoning behind it. It's a reasonable alternative to the "Not even the designer who wrote this knew what he was thinking so let's roll D6 for it" dispute resolution mechanism.
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Post by: Enceladus
So Genestealers lost Brood Telepathy then by the looks of it? Let's hope if they are indeed subject to Instinctive Behaviour that it's Feed and not Lurk.
I can see myself Infiltrating a couple of Genestealer broods into the opponent's deployment zone and instantly gaining Rage for +2 attacks on the charge first turn (if I go second). The opponent will have no choice but to pay attention to them or risk getting torn apart, meaning I can advance my Fexes while he's forced to deal with the Stealers.
Every cloud...
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Post by: xttz
Enceladus wrote:So Genestealers lost Brood Telepathy then by the looks of it? Let's hope if they are indeed subject to Instinctive Behaviour that it's Feed and not Lurk.
I can see myself Infiltrating a couple of Genestealer broods into the opponent's deployment zone and instantly gaining Rage for +2 attacks on the charge first turn (if I go second). The opponent will have no choice but to pay attention to them or risk getting torn apart, meaning I can advance my Fexes while he's forced to deal with the Stealers.
Every cloud...
Brood Telepathy did nothing anyway, it was just a placeholder rule that basically said " hey we deliberately left out instinctive behaviour". This time they're simply not listing Instinctive Behaviour next to Genestealers so you know it doesn't apply.
This new codex seems to be removing that all the other pointless rules that do nothing, like Teeth and Claws or armour types.
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Post by: Slayer le boucher
To those who think that because Adrenal gland gives fleet on models that allready got fleet, they will have somekind of upgrade.
Axe of Blind Fury on a Khorne Lord...nuff said
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Post by: nidsNguard
Looking at those point values, they tend to fall in line with MC upgrade costs. Is anyone besides me getting the feeling they may have upgraded the Broodlord to MC status, however unlikely it is?
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Post by: tetrisphreak
nidsNguard wrote:Looking at those point values, they tend to fall in line with MC upgrade costs. Is anyone besides me getting the feeling they may have upgraded the Broodlord to MC status, however unlikely it is?
No -- His unit type is Infantry.
There's more to this picture than we're seeing, otherwise the upgrade costs are completely out of sync with in-game usefulness.
Also I keep seeing Robin Cruddace's name pop up as the "true" author (White dwarf lists the author as the "games workshop design team"). Could this be a horrible nightmare? 4-5 more years of a Crud-dex??????
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Post by: kirsanth
Those upgrades don't look like they are from that page. Maybe it was a silly link or something equally odd. Maybe it is just me.
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Post by: Deadshot
This is why I prefer the old 5th Ed army lists to this "Armoury" idea. Sure, it works for something like Marines, where all the stats are pretty even, and the weapon gives the same benefit to all, but for something like Nids where something may be awesome and totally worth it on one thing, like Fleet on your Carnifex, but useless on another, like Fleet on the already fleet genestealers for example, just to nab the Furious Charge, if that's indeed what it does.
Personally I think Adrenal Glands will be something like Rage, and IB-Feed will go back to being something like it was in 5th Ed. After all, the rules only changed because the rule granted was changed by a new edition.
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Post by: nidsNguard
tetrisphreak wrote:nidsNguard wrote:Looking at those point values, they tend to fall in line with MC upgrade costs. Is anyone besides me getting the feeling they may have upgraded the Broodlord to MC status, however unlikely it is?
No -- His unit type is Infantry.
Couldn't find that on any of the leaked scans/screenshots. People are throwing around the idea of tyrant guard being upgraded to MC status so its not implausible that the BL might be too. Again, all speculation but it would seem to make the upgrades worth it.
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Post by: Slayer le boucher
We CSm we get Furious Charge and reroll to assault distance with the icon of Wrath.
Zerkers can take the Icon of Wrath.
Zerkers allready have Furious Charge.
Zerkers doesn't get anything else to replace the FC of the Icon, they only get the privilege of paying 50% of something that they allready have.
Welcome to the Ponyland of Games Workshop, where you pay for rules you allready have.
46864
Post by: Deadshot
nidsNguard wrote: tetrisphreak wrote:nidsNguard wrote:Looking at those point values, they tend to fall in line with MC upgrade costs. Is anyone besides me getting the feeling they may have upgraded the Broodlord to MC status, however unlikely it is?
No -- His unit type is Infantry.
Couldn't find that on any of the leaked scans/screenshots. People are throwing around the idea of tyrant guard being upgraded to MC status so its not implausible that the BL might be too. Again, all speculation but it would seem to make the upgrades worth it.
They are new sculpts on 50mm bases though, so its got basis. Broodlord is still the same sculpt and on a 40mm. The only MC currently on a 40mm is the Avatar IIRC and C'tan Shards, and the Transcendent C'tan on the flying base but whatever.
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Post by: AlexHolker
Deadshot wrote:This is why I prefer the old 5th Ed army lists to this "Armoury" idea. Sure, it works for something like Marines, where all the stats are pretty even, and the weapon gives the same benefit to all, but for something like Nids where something may be awesome and totally worth it on one thing, like Fleet on your Carnifex, but useless on another, like Fleet on the already fleet genestealers for example, just to nab the Furious Charge, if that's indeed what it does.
I would agree in this specific case. Tyranids do not have an armoury, they have organs grown by and attached to specific creatures, so the armoury concept is inherently invalid for them where it is not for other factions.
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Post by: Carnage43
Slayer le boucher wrote:We CSm we get Furious Charge and reroll to assault distance with the icon of Wrath.
Zerkers can take the Icon of Wrath.
Zerkers allready have Furious Charge.
Zerkers doesn't get anything else to replace the FC of the Icon, they only get the privilege of paying 50% of something that they allready have.
Welcome to the Ponyland of Games Workshop, where you pay for rules you allready have.
That's just bad writing, no getting around that. Best we can hope for is that AG on units with fleet already either get a discount (which we know didn't happen) or it give something else to them (rampage isn't likely, but rage isn't impossible). Just hope GW doesn't space out on this one.
nidsNguard wrote: tetrisphreak wrote:nidsNguard wrote:Looking at those point values, they tend to fall in line with MC upgrade costs. Is anyone besides me getting the feeling they may have upgraded the Broodlord to MC status, however unlikely it is?
No -- His unit type is Infantry.
Couldn't find that on any of the leaked scans/screenshots. People are throwing around the idea of tyrant guard being upgraded to MC status so its not implausible that the BL might be too. Again, all speculation but it would seem to make the upgrades worth it.
There's exactly zero chance guard are MCs now. I mean, they COULD be, there's a precedent sub-60 point monstrous creatures in Tomb spiders. They will have access to crushing claws (which is going to be the tyranid powerfist basically) but that's all the evidence we have, since crushing claws were MC only in the fifth book.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
nidsNguard wrote: tetrisphreak wrote:nidsNguard wrote:Looking at those point values, they tend to fall in line with MC upgrade costs. Is anyone besides me getting the feeling they may have upgraded the Broodlord to MC status, however unlikely it is?
No -- His unit type is Infantry.
Couldn't find that on any of the leaked scans/screenshots. People are throwing around the idea of tyrant guard being upgraded to MC status so its not implausible that the BL might be too. Again, all speculation but it would seem to make the upgrades worth it.
Page 27 of the January white dwarf, preview pictures of the tyranid codex.
Tyranids Codex, 6th edition, page 43 wrote:
...Unit Type: Infantry, Broodlord is Infantry, Character.
I assure you with 100% certainty the broodlord is NOT a monstrous creature.
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Post by: winterman
 Slayer le boucher wrote:We CSm we get Furious Charge and reroll to assault distance with the icon of Wrath.
Zerkers can take the Icon of Wrath.
Zerkers allready have Furious Charge.
Zerkers doesn't get anything else to replace the FC of the Icon, they only get the privilege of paying 50% of something that they allready have.
Welcome to the Ponyland of Games Workshop, where you pay for rules you allready have.
You forgot one detail
Zerkers get the Icon of Wrath for 5 points cheaper then CSM -- presumably because they already have furious charge.
You are proving the point people are trying to make about one size fits all costs on wargear pages. If the Icon had been on a wargear page then that sort of adjustment wouldn't have happened. Like say broodlords paying MC prices for adrenal glands.
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Post by: nidsNguard
Thanks for that tetrisphreak. Like I said, it was just a shot in the dark to try and make those point costs make sense
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Post by: Kanluwen
nidsNguard wrote:Looking at those point values, they tend to fall in line with MC upgrade costs. Is anyone besides me getting the feeling they may have upgraded the Broodlord to MC status, however unlikely it is?
I don't think they upgraded him to MC status but it reads like that is the "independent character table".
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Post by: ductvader
 Kanluwen wrote:nidsNguard wrote:Looking at those point values, they tend to fall in line with MC upgrade costs. Is anyone besides me getting the feeling they may have upgraded the Broodlord to MC status, however unlikely it is?
I don't think they upgraded him to MC status but it reads like that is the "independent character table".
I wish...I read it more like a veteran sergeant access to the armory type of selection.
Mr. Broody also isn't listed under any of the many lists of HQs that we've seen.
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Post by: Noctem
Does it look like a cc flyrant will be more viable now that we have the Crone?
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Post by: ductvader
Noctem wrote:Does it look like a cc flyrant will be more viable now that we have the Crone?
He's viable now...
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Post by: Zookie
Slayer le boucher wrote:To those who think that because Adrenal gland gives fleet on models that allready got fleet, they will have somekind of upgrade.
Axe of Blind Fury on a Khorne Lord...nuff said
True but seem an odd upgrade in an army where fleet is fairy common. But you are right, it is quite possible that is all it will be.
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Post by: Noctem
I guess that's why I said more viable, but I just see everyone uses devouerers
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Post by: Ravenous D
Looking like they are taking away his access to biomancy according to the guy that has the book. So maybe not so viable, unless it got a massive points drop.
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Post by: ductvader
Noctem wrote:
I guess that's why I said more viable, but I just see everyone uses devouerers
My bad, I think the codex wide 20% pt reduction alone immediately allows for more flexibility in choices.
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Post by: Backlash
The addition of the crone will add another serious, in your face target for enemies to deal with. So CC tyrants will probably stand a better chance of getting close while still alive. Though I see vector striking/shooting FMC spam being much more viable.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
Hmm..fleet, furious charge rippers with poison (4+) in CC for 23 points per base.
No sir, I don't see that being worth it. Not at all.
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Post by: ductvader
tetrisphreak wrote:Hmm..fleet, furious charge rippers with poison (4+) in CC for 23 points per base.
No sir, I don't see that being worth it. Not at all.
Oh fleet son, made my night...I have 60 ripper bases.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
ductvader wrote: tetrisphreak wrote:Hmm..fleet, furious charge rippers with poison (4+) in CC for 23 points per base.
No sir, I don't see that being worth it. Not at all.
Oh fleet son, made my night...I have 60 ripper bases.
Unless the FOC is changed you can only take 54 (6 broods x9 bases). And they're still swarms so no scoring. :-P. I might try a unit or two of them for lolz
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Post by: ductvader
Well I have more than 60...comes with owning hundreds of gants and hundreds of gaunts.
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Post by: SHUPPET
The Shadow wrote: Kirasu wrote: The Shadow wrote:gorgon wrote:It sounds like some kind of funny cliche, but Tyranids have been through so many evolutions over the years that it's forced Tyranid players to become very good at adapting.
It all makes sense! GW are trying to make Tyranid players think like the Hive Mind! Imposter101 wrote:This looks to be like another CSM situation. Pretty disappointing over all.
Meh, this annoys me as well. I remember how people were complaining about how utterly broken the Helldrake was and how CSM would kill us all. Now, " CSM are really bad".
An army can still be powerful in a tournament yet still be a complete failure of a book. GW doesnt like tournaments, therefore we should judge the book by how decent it is overall. CSM has so many completely useless entries and yes some good ones.
Point taken and I agree, just that the impression I get from many people is that they're shelving such and such an army because it's "terribad" or whatever, because they keeping getting beaten (no accusations of people being sore losers, by the way). They're not shelving it because it's mono-build. Personally, since I've been using Tyranids again in 6th, I've had great success, often including some units people would call bad, like Hormagants and Venomthropes, and dropping the ones people view as auto-include, namely Hive Guard.
What? You've come into this thread and decided that's why people are shelving it so that you can label them whiners, even when almost every post has legitimate reasons and has mentioned the fact that we are being locked into one build and it's disappointing not to be able to use models that needed a buff in our new codex. NOBODY thinks its going to be weak. Improvements to Flyrant, Tervigon, Carnifex, Tyrannofex, Termagants, new toys such as the Crone & Exocrine will certainly find their role as well. It's just going to be boring having the large list of useless models from the 5E codex actually grow LARGER in this edition. And it's almost ALL of our infantry units, there is I think two exceptions. CSM is a terrible codex, and the same complaints there are accurate here if not more so. Telling CSM players that they have to rely on the Heldrake to be competitive is what I think we are about to become with the Crone. Except with even more basura in our dex than they have.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
Bio artifacts and psychic powers posted on warseer. On my phone or I'd link them here.
2
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Post by: Carnage43
My analysis;
Psychic powers;
Primaris is crap....utterly.
1. Catalyst = better than ever, although the 12" range kinda bothers me.
2. The Horror. Pinning, in a game where half of the units in it are immune to pinning. The text is a bit shiny, so I cannot tell if there is a modifier to their leadership. Overall, not amazing at best, awful at worst.
3. Onslaught. Run and shoot....meh. Not awful, but not something I'd be looking for.
4. Paroxysm. Only -D3 now instead of reducing to 1. At least they doubled the range though. Passable, since it makes WS3 gaunts a lot scarier in melee.
5. Psychic scream...if only we still had mysetic spore to actually get into range to use this....
6. Warp blast. Nerfed the AP1 on the lance? Also, warp charge 2, so only for tyrants, Zoanthropes and swarmlord AFAIK. Passable....I suppose. Might be cool for a winged tyrant with a S10 AP2 weapon....although, BS3 all around = :(
Biomorphs;
Maw-Claws; Rending, AP5, and get preferred enemy after killing something. Broodlord upgrade probably? Maybe solid for a prime leading some melee warriors. Depends on cost really, anything more than 15-20 and it's useless.
Norn-Crown (really? Naming fail); +6" to synapse.....fail.
Miasma Cannon: So, a 36" range, 2+ poison small blast.....with AP4, or a 2+ poison AP4 flamer? MAYBE useful on a winged tyrant? That flamer could cause some damage against some fire warriors....I guess?
Ymgarl Factor: +1S, or +1A or +1 to your armor save, cannot use the same twice.....actually solid IMO. Going to be awesome on pretty much anything, depending on cost I suppose.
Reaper of Obliterax: +1S bonesword that gives +3 initiative......MEH. Main problem is that the things that have good initiative don't really need anymore (primes and tyrants are already I5) and the Tervigon, other than looking stupid with a sword, would still only be I4 or 5, and doesn't have access to grenades AFAIK......so lets call this one situational for now.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
Hit refresh I think I fixed it
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Post by: ductvader
Thanks Tetris!
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Post by: Backlash
These rules make me very sad. The psychic powers are very hit or miss, and the primares power wont be useful to experienced tyranid players. Still hoping for access to the BRB powers. A few of the special equipment pieces seem useful, but again very hit or miss is usefulness.
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Post by: ductvader
These all seem to be at about the right power level...considering what they can go on.
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Post by: AesSedai
Via Lokust on warseer:
New Regeneration is like It Will Not Die, but on a 4+ instead of a 5+.
Adrenal glands confirmed fleet + furious charge
flesh hooks and spine banks both work like assault grenades and also have a very short range shooting attack.
Confirm by searching the tyranid rumour thread on 4chan.org/tg if you like... source is a scanned page
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Post by: Backlash
There are too many synapse increasing abilities. Not that useful unless synapse has been seriously overhauled.
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Post by: ductvader
Never thought I'd see the day where I thought toxic miasma was so disgustingly good.
Never mind me, misread part of it, I like it all though...very niche.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
Synapse might extend shadows??
Biomorph page -
1
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Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
4+ IWND? Wow, Suddenly the 30 pt cost doesn't seem that bad...
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Post by: AlexHolker
As if Tyranid special characters weren't bad enough, now they've got Tyranid artifacts.
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Post by: Maelstrom808
That change to blinding venom bodes very poorly for gargoyles.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
If they follow the trend and drop to 5 points per model, it's not terrible.
Remember, only 1 blind attack needs to hit to drop a unit to WS/ BS 1
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Post by: jifel
Hm... Psychic powers, nope. Catalyst is good, Dominion is meh (unless Shadows goes with Synapse), Paroxysm is ok not great, the others aren't great. Warp Blast useful, but Onslaught is insulting that it is the same. Here, have a rule for one unit that Eldar get free. But pass a test first, and waste one Warp Charge on it too.
The Artifacts are very... tricky. Its hard to say, but there's less than I'd hoped. Plus, points matters. The poison gun had better be cheap. The Boneswords initiative thing is cool, and prferred enemy from the claws is nice. Norn Crown feels wasted, and Ymgarl is only in CC... sigh. Also this confirms my beloved Ymgarl stealers are no more...  +1 Armor save is CC could be cool, I just otherwise don't see this mattering, and it's too inconsistent at that.
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Post by: Noctem
Really can't decide if I want to drop $100 on the limited edition codex... I have the Tau limited edition, but rarely use it seeing as how I use the iPad one more. I don't want to miss out on it though! Ugh!
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Post by: jifel
But, have a few gargs use the venom to blind a unit while the rest attack... you only lose a little CC power to potentially cripple them next turn for an MC charge. I actually don't see this as a nerf.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Unique items? Why couldn't they have just said "these items are exceptionally rare, appearing on one or two creatures in an entire war zone".
Overall they're pretty lousy upgrades. If the Ygmarl one can be taken by anyone, then it'll go on a Hive Tyrant. And the Synapse one might get taken as well. Primaris power is junk.
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Post by: Lysenis
WELL. . . so a Trygon gets what 5 Attacks, an additional attack due to 2 CC sets of bio-wepons, AND a tail attack. . . hmmmmm not to bad. . .
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Post by: ductvader
Onslaught actually used to be true "battle focus" now you must run first
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I like the reintroduction of Tail weapons. The things on the end of the Trygon now mean something.
Of course I don't like how they don't get the creatures general rules (like Smash). That's just silly. Why would a Carnifex's mace tail suddenly bounce off of Flak Armour?
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Post by: bodazoka
Hrmz...
I like the upgraded bonesword for a price
Regeneration seems really good and priced decently
Adrenal glands are good
Catalyst good
I like the increased range of some of the powers is very good
I think the phsycic power on the Broodlord is better, pin a unit so they can only snap fire at you. The LD modified would want to be a -2 at least though.. hopefully -4
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Post by: tetrisphreak
bodazoka wrote:Hrmz...
I like the upgraded bonesword for a price
Regeneration seems really good and priced decently
Adrenal glands are good
Catalyst good
I like the increased range of some of the powers is very good
I think the phsycic power on the Broodlord is better, pin a unit so they can only snap fire at you. The LD modified would want to be a -2 at least though.. hopefully -4
The poster on BOLS who took the photo clarified that it's a -2 modifier. Pinning a backfield unit that was manning the quad gun before crones and flyrants swoop in could be quite good. Assaulting them with no initiative penalty would be good too. Automatically Appended Next Post: H.B.M.C. wrote:I like the reintroduction of Tail weapons. The things on the end of the Trygon now mean something.
Of course I don't like how they don't get the creatures general rules (like Smash). That's just silly. Why would a Carnifex's mace tail suddenly bounce off of Flak Armour?
It knocks the guardsman into a soft pillow,..
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
It's always these little nonsensical things that piss me off about the Codices GW writes.
Mace tail is back? YAY!
It has no AP... and doesn't benefit from the rules of the big creature? WHY?
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Post by: davethepak
Those artifacts better be really cheap.
So wait...the incredibly unique ARTIFACT....give a AP4 flamer
AP4?
The psychic scream is incredibly iffy....nova is at least nice in that it hits enemy units in CC, but 6" is really dangerous.
also, with its value...on average it will kill 1 marine?
honestly, a lot of these things look like they are going to be deadly to armies with poor initiative (tau and necrons) and bad armor saves (tau firewarriors, guard, and necron warriors). But against marines...not so much.
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Post by: jifel
H.B.M.C. wrote:It's always these little nonsensical things that piss me off about the Codices GW writes.
Mace tail is back? YAY!
It has no AP... and doesn't benefit from the rules of the big creature? WHY?
Mace Tail could be cool actually. It's an extra hit that can ID plenty of characters and can hit vehicles for one last hull point.
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Post by: busby
I've started to read this thread from end toward beginning because it... Ah, looks a lot more fun.
So hormies? I'm itching to pick up about 40. Should I? Or should I leave em in the box they were sent in and continue with their shooty siblings? --- Based off of rumors of course.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
No AP. No character worth ID'ing's gonna fail their (inevitable) 2+ save.
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Post by: Arbiter_Shade
Overall this is becoming more and more disappointing...I know I should wait for the release but I just get the feeling that I will not be buying the newest codex for my favorite army and just...I don't know.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
BlaxicanX wrote:Reading the past few pages of this thread reminds me of IMDB's sub-communities for movies that bomb. Stage 1: Initial announcement of product. Be jaded. Stage 2: Details begin to trickle in. Get cautiously optimistic. Stage 3: Details start flowing. Red-flags show up for those still jaded, the optimistic go into wise-man mode and lash out against the jaded for making assumptions without knowing all the details. Stage 4: A final bombshell of information is released, for movies this is the various trailers. All gak hits the fan. Many of the optimistic give in to their grief but the most stalwart insist that we still don't know all the details yet. Maybe the trailer was just bad. The marketing team is bad. The film could still be good! The jaded are bitterly laughing their asses off. Stage 5. Community embraces the horror. The blame-game begins for the crestfallen, while the most stalwart, those who simply refuse to be phased, spend months insisting that the movie wasn't that bad; defending its flaws and attacking other members of the community (for 40K, this will be the group of people who insist for months that the community needs more time to judge the codex after its release. "We don't know all the best builds yet! Give it some time! There's still strong combos that we might have missed! Dataslates and expansion!" Just because there's no 2++ invuln cheese doesn't mean its bad!) We're at stage 4 ITT.
We slip inevitably closer to stage 5. Anyway, my heart is torn. On the one hand, I totally empathize with the complaints about things like AP4 and other weak AP attacks that we're seeing here. But on the other hand, Space Marines really need a break this edition. There are far too many 3+ save ignoring attacks in this meta as is.
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Post by: Maelstrom808
 jifel wrote:
But, have a few gargs use the venom to blind a unit while the rest attack... you only lose a little CC power to potentially cripple them next turn for an MC charge. I actually don't see this as a nerf.
I still don't like losing the old blinding venom rule, but I can be okay with it as long as they don't mess with the cost/ability to take toxin sacs and adrenal glands. Call me gunshy.
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Post by: Backlash
Onslaught lost the no charging restriction. Unless they faq it. Makes it slightly more useful.
Assuming of course the rumors of certain units being able to run and still assault pan out.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
You can't assault if you run.
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Post by: Zookie
Depending on the cost the reaper bone sword might be a fun option.
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Post by: AesSedai
What we really need to know is what GW will do to rectify the nids inability to take allies. This is, imo, the single greatest problem facing nids.
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Post by: Eldercaveman
If Blinding Venom still comes stock on all Gargoyles, and they always attack with it like they did before. I think it could be better than it's previous incarnation. If I'm reading it right it gives poisoned (6+), which would mean re-rolls to hit against T4 or lower, and T5 or lower on the charge with adrenal glands. And wounding big tough scary units on 6, with the chance of blinding, makes them a horrible tarpit, even more than they are now! Send these guys rushing forward, tie down a wraithknight/riptide let you Carnifex Brood finish them off.
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Post by: AllSeeingSkink
BlaxicanX wrote:We slip inevitably closer to stage 5.
Anyway, my heart is torn. On the one hand, I totally empathize with the complaints about things like AP4 and other weak AP attacks that we're seeing here. But on the other hand, Space Marines really need a break this edition. There are far too many 3+ save ignoring attacks in this meta as is.
I'm waiting for the game developers to realise the AP system is terrible and unbalanced. I've been waiting since 2nd edition
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Post by: Formosa
Marines have been kicking ass forever, now there not, sod them, I'm a long suffering dark Angel player and love beating codex marines to death
Well looky looky, no ew relics, like I said haha
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Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
Rumors from 4chan (I know I know):
Swarmlord is even more of a CC monster than he is now:
Let me put it this way, within an average of 5 instances each bad *** rival, mathhammered to averages:
vs Abaddon - Victorious after two phases, with 1.08 wounds taken in return.
vs Skarbrand - Victorious after two phases, with 0.78 wounds taken in return.
vs Be'lakor - Victorious after three phases, with 0.67 wounds taken in return.*
vs Ghazghull Thraka under Waaagh! - Victorious after four phases, with 0.43 wounds taken in turn.
vs Draigo: Victorious after four phases, with 0.33 wounds taken in turn.
Notice a pattern?
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Post by: gigasnail
Eldercaveman wrote:If Blinding Venom still comes stock on all Gargoyles, and they always attack with it like they did before. I think it could be better than it's previous incarnation. If I'm reading it right it gives poisoned (6+), which would mean re-rolls to hit against T4 or lower, and T5 or lower on the charge with adrenal glands. And wounding big tough scary units on 6, with the chance of blinding, makes them a horrible tarpit, even more than they are now! Send these guys rushing forward, tie down a wraithknight/riptide let you Carnifex Brood finish them off.
gargs are S3. rerolls vs T3, or T4 on the charge with adrenal glands.
the new venom is functionally the same vs. a T4, WS3 or WS4 target at @17% per garg on every round after the first.
problem is that the old venom was more than twice as effective during the charge, with 2 attacks each giving you a 34%ish chance of an autowound vs anything with a T value, at any WS. the new venom is also significantly worse at anything T5+ (8%ish) or anything with WS 7 or better.
someone pointed out blind to me earlier, it'll help you tarpit things you couuld already easily tarpit (such as low I MC's), otherwise it's not much of a factor.
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Post by: Formosa
If blind was per hit or wound I could see it being better
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Space Marines have been mid-tier for two editions now (sans Space Wolves, I guess).
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Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
BlaxicanX wrote:Space Marines have been mid-tier for two editions now (sans Space Wolves, I guess).
You do realize vanilla marines are supposed to be mid-tier right? It kinda comes with their rule of "jack of trades, master of none."
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Post by: Formosa
Grey knights, blood angels, space wolves were great in 5th, 4th Im not sure iI can't really remember, 3rd was blood angels rhino rush and space wolves, dark angels had a good run in 3rd too... Ah that was a fun 2 week's
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Post by: NamelessBard
 Formosa wrote:If blind was per hit or wound I could see it being better
Blind is per hit. Blind states that any unit hit by a model or weapon with blind must immediately take an I test. That is different than what is said with pinning. Each hit (in this case with blinding venom) will cause an I test.
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Post by: Formosa
NamelessBard wrote: Formosa wrote:If blind was per hit or wound I could see it being better
Blind is per hit. Blind states that any unit hit by a model or weapon with blind must immediately take an I test. That is different than what is said with pinning. Each hit (in this case with blinding venom) will cause an I test.
Then surely that's pretty good, force enough tests and there gonna fail right?
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Post by: the shrouded lord
Formosa wrote:NamelessBard wrote: Formosa wrote:If blind was per hit or wound I could see it being better
Blind is per hit. Blind states that any unit hit by a model or weapon with blind must immediately take an I test. That is different than what is said with pinning. Each hit (in this case with blinding venom) will cause an I test.
Then surely that's pretty good, force enough tests and there gonna fail right?
Pretty sure thats the tyranids moto.
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Post by: bodazoka
If Gargoyles come stock with blind per model I am buying 20 of them!
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Post by: BlaxicanX
 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: BlaxicanX wrote:Space Marines have been mid-tier for two editions now (sans Space Wolves, I guess).
You do realize vanilla marines are supposed to be mid-tier right? It kinda comes with their rule of "jack of trades, master of none."
You do realize that if they're mid-tier that means that they can not, by definition, have been "kicking ass forever", right? Space Wolves, BA and Grey Knights were all pretty decent in 5th. But then they were nowhere near top-tier in a world with 5E Necrons, Imperial Guard, and Dark Eldar (who were pretty strong in 5th). Thinking about it, 5th was pretty cool in that regard. Maybe it's because almost every codex used metal-bawkses lists.
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Post by: Enceladus
Pretty underwhelming sets of upgrades on all of the leaked pages. Let's hope they don't cost too many points.
I cling to the hope that the dataslates will make some models more useful.
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Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
BlaxicanX wrote: Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: BlaxicanX wrote:Space Marines have been mid-tier for two editions now (sans Space Wolves, I guess).
You do realize vanilla marines are supposed to be mid-tier right? It kinda comes with their rule of "jack of trades, master of none."
You do realize that if they're mid-tier that means that they can not, by definition, have been "kicking ass forever", right?
For your education:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation
Automatically Appended Next Post: Enceladus wrote:Pretty underwhelming sets of upgrades on all of the leaked pages. Let's hope they don't cost too many points.
I cling to the hope that the dataslates will make some models more useful.
Hope is forsaken in these lands...
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Post by: StarHunter25
...This is 5e all over again for me. When that dex first dropped, IT took me like 4 months to figure out a workable build for my meta, losing every single game. even after that, until 6th dropped my W/L record was abysmal.
I'm willing to bet that cruddace also has heavy influence on the guard codex, and that it will once again totally overshadow nids in every way. Again.
Also, Im hoping that someone with these codexes can confirm/deny the terrible rumor that nids only get their completely aweful psy powers. It'd be like playing CSM (already meh list) and being forced into only the tzeench discipline...
But so far, list of things against my favorite army (which I will continue to spitefully play)
1. No allies
2. No fortifications
3. No use of Stronghold
4. Terrible againt Escalation
5. 1-2 gimmecky units
6. A whole trove of terrible units
7. Overcosted upgrades that -should- be on half the units in the first place
8. Now apperantly my army kills itself 1/6 of the time. <<This is my biggest gripe. on two of the rumored IB tables, Each has a 'kill your own dudes lol' option. Does any other army have a 16% chance that they are forced to attack their own army/units because they werent all bunched up? no.
9. GW once again nerfing former viable options into the ground (Tyrant w/biomancy, Trygon, Gargoyles) in favor of pushing its new models (Crone/haruspex/exocrine)
Granted, it is 3:30am here, and I'm super grumpy over seeing all of these pictures of the new codex. I just hope this is similar to eldar, where until the total codex synergy was realized when it was actually released. Hope. Hope.... there is no 'hope' in grimdark......
 >
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Post by: bodazoka
Anymore leaked images!!! I need more info!!
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Post by: DO IT TO IT
God, I hope we can ally with ourselves.
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Post by: Enceladus
I'm with this guy. Show me a Tyrant/Swarmlord profile page!
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Post by: Plumbumbarum
Mr. Cruddace 5th ed nids was an ok codex, people played with too little terrain, going by 5th ed BRB it was supposed to be 25% and 1-2 big LOS blocking pieces. We played with 2 and everyone was scared of nids, obviously in shops with 3 small ruins and a tree they were going to suck (and IG shine btw) but that's not what the codex was designed for. Even Carnifex worked, was still overpriced ofc but not useless.
I'm not saying this means the new one will be good, no spores no doom already pisses me off not the mention I hate 6th edition tables everywhere trend, rolling for powers and warlord traits etc. Mr. Cruddace possibly being an author of the book does not raise a red flag for me at all though.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: BlaxicanX wrote:We slip inevitably closer to stage 5.
Anyway, my heart is torn. On the one hand, I totally empathize with the complaints about things like AP4 and other weak AP attacks that we're seeing here. But on the other hand, Space Marines really need a break this edition. There are far too many 3+ save ignoring attacks in this meta as is.
I'm waiting for the game developers to realise the AP system is terrible and unbalanced. I've been waiting since 2nd edition
It makes perfect sense and should stay.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
It's almost as if you jumped into my discussion with Formosa without reading anything we actually said, and are now just making erroneous statements. Allow me to illuminate you. Formosa said that Space Marines were top-tier armies in 5th edition. I stated that they were predominantly mid-tier in 5th Edition. Explain how "they've supposed to be mid-tier!" is in any way, shape or form relevant to my assertion that they're mid-tier.
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Post by: SHUPPET
 Carnage43 wrote:My analysis; Psychic powers; Primaris is crap....utterly. 1. Catalyst = better than ever, although the 12" range kinda bothers me. 2. The Horror. Pinning, in a game where half of the units in it are immune to pinning. The text is a bit shiny, so I cannot tell if there is a modifier to their leadership. Overall, not amazing at best, awful at worst. 3. Onslaught. Run and shoot....meh. Not awful, but not something I'd be looking for. 4. Paroxysm. Only -D3 now instead of reducing to 1. At least they doubled the range though. Passable, since it makes WS3 gaunts a lot scarier in melee. 5. Psychic scream...if only we still had mysetic spore to actually get into range to use this.... 6. Warp blast. Nerfed the AP1 on the lance? Also, warp charge 2, so only for tyrants, Zoanthropes and swarmlord AFAIK. Passable....I suppose. Might be cool for a winged tyrant with a S10 AP2 weapon....although, BS3 all around = :(
How this table affects our main caster, the Flyrant, is unfortunate. IF he gets mastery level two, the table is passable, with a small chance of getting nothing useful, but being able to spam the best power it gets... But I don't think they would get such a buff and a points reduction at the same time. So assuming they stay level 1, they run the risk of getting Warp Blast which they cannot even cast, The Horror which even if you find something to viable to cast it on will likely do very little for your army and absolutely nothing for the Flyrant itself, Onslaught which literally has no effect, and a Primaris power so useless that even on the off times that it is useful, I probably would prefer taking the feed check over risking perils on my Flyrant. This leaves Paroxysm which has been made weaker but is no longer a shooting attack making it infinitely better and actually useable, Catalyst which is stronger than ever, and Psychic Scream, which at the cost of firing a weapon is REALLY situational (it is highly reliant on opponents army choice, as well as both of your positioning choices, and even then has a roll to cast, roll to deny, and a roll for leadership to deal damage), but is not of absolutely NO use (I mean it will do more to a Fire Warrior squad than 6 devourer shots). But at the end of the day this is a very risky table for the Flyrant if he stays at Psyker lvl 1 and does not begin with a choice of powers like he used to, and is without argument a nerf if he can't take Biomancy powers instead. There is nothing on here that I wouldn't change for Endurance let alone Iron Arm. If he gets Psyker level two, its still a nerf, but with the points reduction its justifiable, and casting dual Paroxysm + Firing Dual Devourers every turn is probably the most use a Flyrant could ever be. How this table affects the Tervigon is basically - if he comes with Catalyst stock standard he doesn't want to roll, otherwise, he wants to roll on this table and hope for Catalyst nothing else is very good for him, at all. Zoanthropes Warp Lance is no longer AP 1 which was one of my favourite things about him to be honest. There is a lot of rolls that go into landing a pen with Warp Lance, when I finally did land one I liked to have a good chance on my roll of causing an explosion. Even with the points reduction, i think that now they have no Pods they will be far far FAR too unreliable to justify taking up an elite slot, over HG and Exocrine who will definitely be able to move some weight every game. To summarize the facts at hands, its really not the news any of us were hoping for going into 6th so I think complaints are justified. Anyone in here raging about people complaining about confirmed information on the codex because they don't have the full codex yet, needs to sit back in their seat. When the good news comes, it will get raucous applause. Till then, you guys look like the 3 people in the audience who can be softly heard giving up sympathy claps amongst the 100 other people sitting silently after a terrible stage performance. There is not much here that doesn't deserve a bad response, are we supposed to just say nothing at all? To keep you happy? How about you just avoid the news and rumours thread if you aren't interested in discussion about the news and rumours, and wait for the Codex to drop if all you want to hear is opinions about the finished Codex, because we can't give you those yet.
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Post by: Caederes
 SHUPPET wrote: Carnage43 wrote:My analysis;
Psychic powers;
Primaris is crap....utterly.
1. Catalyst = better than ever, although the 12" range kinda bothers me.
2. The Horror. Pinning, in a game where half of the units in it are immune to pinning. The text is a bit shiny, so I cannot tell if there is a modifier to their leadership. Overall, not amazing at best, awful at worst.
3. Onslaught. Run and shoot....meh. Not awful, but not something I'd be looking for.
4. Paroxysm. Only -D3 now instead of reducing to 1. At least they doubled the range though. Passable, since it makes WS3 gaunts a lot scarier in melee.
5. Psychic scream...if only we still had mysetic spore to actually get into range to use this....
6. Warp blast. Nerfed the AP1 on the lance? Also, warp charge 2, so only for tyrants, Zoanthropes and swarmlord AFAIK. Passable....I suppose. Might be cool for a winged tyrant with a S10 AP2 weapon....although, BS3 all around = :(
How this table affects our main caster, the Flyrant, is unfortunate. IF he gets mastery level two, the table is passable, with a small chance of getting nothing useful, but being able to spam the best power it gets... But I don't think they would get such a buff and a points reduction at the same time. So assuming they stay level 1, they run the risk of getting Warp Blast which they cannot even cast, The Horror which even if you find something to viable to cast it on will likely do very little for your army and absolutely nothing for the Flyrant itself, Onslaught which literally has no effect, and a Primaris power so useless that even on the off times that it is useful, I probably would prefer taking the feed check over risking perils on my Flyrant. This leaves Paroxysm which has been made weaker but is no longer a shooting attack making it infinitely better and actually useable, Catalyst which is stronger than ever, and Psychic Scream, which at the cost of firing a weapon is REALLY situational (it is highly reliant on opponents army choice, as well as both of your positioning choices, and even then has a roll to cast, roll to deny, and a roll for leadership to deal damage), but is not of absolutely NO use (I mean it will do more to a Fire Warrior squad than 6 devourer shots). But at the end of the day this is a very risky table for the Flyrant if he stays at Psyker lvl 1 and does not begin with a choice of powers like he used to, and is without argument a nerf if he can't take Biomancy powers instead. There is nothing on here that I wouldn't change for Endurance let alone Iron Arm. If he gets Psyker level two, its still a nerf, but with the points reduction its justifiable, and casting dual Paroxysm + Firing Dual Devourers every turn is probably the most use a Flyrant could ever be.
How this table affects the Tervigon is basically - if he comes with Catalyst stock standard he doesn't want to roll, otherwise, he wants to roll on this table and hope for Catalyst nothing else is very good for him, at all.
Zoanthropes Warp Lance is no longer AP 1 which was one of my favourite things about him to be honest. There is a lot of rolls that go into landing a pen with Warp Lance, when I finally did land one I liked to have a good chance on my roll of causing an explosion. Even with the points reduction, i think that now they have no Pods they will be far far FAR too unreliable to justify taking up an elite slot, over HG and Exocrine who will definitely be able to move some weight every game.
To summarize the facts at hands, its really not the news any of us were hoping for going into 6th so I think complaints are justified. Anyone in here raging about people complaining about confirmed information on the codex because they don't have the full codex yet, needs to sit back in their seat. When the good news comes, it will get raucous applause. Till then, you guys look like the 3 people in the audience who can be softly heard giving up sympathy claps amongst the 100 other people sitting silently after a terrible stage performance. There is not much here that doesn't deserve a bad response, are we supposed to just say nothing at all? To keep you happy? How about you just avoid the news and rumours thread if you aren't interested in discussion about the news and rumours, and wait for the Codex to drop if all you want to hear is opinions about the finished Codex, because we can't give you those yet.
The White Dwarf battle report had a Flyrant with two brain-leech devourers and psychic mastery level 2 for 230 points. Given that mastery levels always cost 25 points, we can assume the standard Flyrant build with two brain leech devourers will be 205 points.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
Pre ordered a Warrior brood and the Carnifex brood (the one with x2 in) from Wayland for my brother. Saved myself about 10-15 bucks. In fairness to GW the Carnifex x2 brood is a pretty good deal for £55!!
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Post by: AllSeeingSkink
Makes perfect sense and is terrible for game balance. Save modifiers also make perfect sense and are better for game balance.
66712
Post by: Enceladus
Indeed, I'll probably be buying at least another couple of boxes of Fexes along with a couple of Crones, and maybe a Haruspex/Exocrine or two if they turn out to be any good. We shall see!
31598
Post by: sLeEpYrOcK
Just saying guys, in the picture of the tail weapons, it specifies that the pincer tail does not benefit from smash of poisoned, why would they need to specify this if the other tails do not benefit from USRs anyway? Unless the Smash USR for ap2 will still apply, please god let this be! it is the only hope i have in this new book, a few broods of fexes with mace tails....
10953
Post by: JohnnyHell
sLeEpYrOcK wrote:Just saying guys, in the picture of the tail weapons, it specifies that the pincer tail does not benefit from smash of poisoned, why would they need to specify this if the other tails do not benefit from USRs anyway? Unless the Smash USR for ap2 will still apply, please god let this be! it is the only hope i have in this new book, a few broods of fexes with mace tails....
...because it's an example. It's an example demonstrating how special rules don't apply to tail attacks, not a specific exemption. Let's not find grey areas where there aren't any,...
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Post by: schadenfreude
The eldar and tau meta is not set up to handle a bum rush of small gribbles and mc all with reduced prices. 420 Points buys 60 hgaunts and 30 tgaunts in 3 troops slots
Fast and cheap gargoyles with h gaunts can create a real bum rush, and they are rumored to gain fc and poison from tervigons
I see 2 Ways of extending synapse and shadow which can shut down seer/screamer star.
extended synapse ranges can allow fast gribbles to go balls to the wall with a bum rush.
I hope bugs shake up the meta.
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Post by: Nem
I like the tail bio's and options listed. Depending on which units can take and the cost ofc.
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Post by: streamdragon
Ahahahahaha oh man, that's adorable.
Anyway...
Relics, excuse me, Bio-Artefacts.
Claws: Rending Claws + the possibility of PE. Worth not much more than the cost of regular rending claws. How much do you want to bet this means Old Adversary is gone?
Norn Crown: My one per army item will be spent duplicating my laughable Primaris power! Saves risking Perils, woooooo! More than 5 points and you probably won't see it.
Miasma Cannon: Least awful of the bunch I guess. Continues GW's inability to give Nids any AP3- shooting really.
Ymargl: One model only now. Armor bonus only lasts to the end of the phase, so you don't even get it against enemy shooting. Can't see taking this.
Reaper: Bonesword, +1S +3I in combat. (Can't have MCs not falling into Jaws now can we!). Meh. Guessing you'll see this sort of thing on Primes or something, because most MCs won't really need the +1S or +3I badly enough to warrant what I'm sure is an insane cost. Despite the description, I notice it doesn't actually state it comes with a lashwhip, which makes me wonder if you have to buy a bonesword then upgrade it to this thing.
Psychic Powers:
Note- Top of the page: "Tyranid psykers use the Powers of the Hive Mind, which is treated as a psychic discipline for all rules purposes." Not "May use" or "can use". Sort of improves the stance that we lost BRB powers, aka Biomancy. Could still be listed under the individual unit I guess.
Dominion: laughable. The instances where 6" extra will be meaningful have, for me at least, been pretty rare. Synapse tends to be beside or behind the little gribblies, and since you remove from the front 99% of the time, you're still in range. I guess combined with the norn crown you're looking at doubling Synapse, but if you need 24" synapse I feel like you've done something wrong.
Catalyst: Everyone will be rolling for this one. Only 100% good, always useful power.
The Horror: We've been over how mediocre-at-best Pinning is.
Onslaught: Run then shoot. So it will help you get into range to shoot, but not out of range of enemy shooting. Situational, helpful with our short range weapons, but ultimately all it does is spare your enemy having to move in the movement phase to shoot you back before he jumps away.
Paroxysm: Not entirely awful. The biggest thing is that it doesn't, for now, say "to a minimum of 1" anywhere. So theoretically you could use this to prevent a unit from shooting or striking in CC at all if they are BS or WS 3 or less.
Psychich Scream: 6" nova power, Ld check blah blah blah. This is what people will actually roll when shooting for Catalyst. They will then cry quietly to themselves.
Warp Blast: Loss of AP1 on the lance version for no particular reason I guess. Not awful, but I'm not going to give my Tyrants just CC weapons in the hopes that I roll this up.
Bio-morphs:
Acid Blood: on a haruspex with his rumored ability to regain wounds this is fine I guess. I wouldn't pay points for it though.
Acid Maw: So I can exchange all my attacks for a single AP2 attack? You won't see this on MCs at all. There'd be no reason to use it. A model with Rending Claws is better off using those. Guessing Pyrovores have it, and this is their CC "Buff".
Adrenal Glands: What we expected, but I remain unimpressed. Fleet and Furious Charge are just not the rules they used to be, especially Furious Charge.
Blinding Venom: Maybe on Gaunts, but even then you're likely better off using your regular attacks. S3 (so Furious Charge won't help) and Poisoned 6+ is just "Meh".
Regeneration: Probably worth the 30 points. Will likely mean your opponents make sure to finish off your MCs before you get to roll at all, but it's still good. Best on the page.
Flesh Hooks/Spine Banks: So Flesh Hooks lose rending. We get assault grenades of a sort, but who wants to guess how many models that actually need them, will get to buy these. Carnifexes, unless there has been a great change, are probably still I1, so striking at I isnt exactly a BFD. I guess if I made a CC fex he'd at least get a S3 shooting attack! *finger twirl*
Toxin Sacs: Confirmed for CC only is expected. From what I recall, too costly for little gribs like Horms on a PPM basis. Most MCs will be wounding on 2s already. If the Tervigon can still pass these to nearby gaunts, you'll see them on Tervs. If not, you probably won't see them at all.
Tail Weapons: I can see Cruddace all over this garbage. All over it. Set strength and no AP worth mentioning, along with no special rules of the model using them? Worthless. Absolute garbage.
So now all that remains is Synapse. As it is unlikely that models in Synapse gain EW, rage, rampage, zealot, adamantine will, crusader, or basically anything other than Fearless, I think we can safely say Synapse will not be a game changer. It is entirely possible, if extremely unlikely, that Synapse got some massive buff that makes running a Norn Crown + Dominion Tervigon the best thing ever. I am not banking the cost of a codex on it though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
schadenfreude wrote:The eldar and tau meta is not set up to handle a bum rush of small gribbles and mc all with reduced prices. 420 Points buys 60 hgaunts and 30 tgaunts in 3 troops slots
Sorry, wanted to give a real, non-snarky answer to this. Ork Boyz are only a few points more than Horms or Terms, are T4 and don't require Synapse support. They're hardly anything Eldar and Tau are "not set up to handle". With massed 30" S5 weapons or the ability to shoot you and then get away or all the other shenanigans available, swarms aren't exactly a weak spot for Eldar or Tau.
Also, I have seen 2 things which extend the range of Synapse. 0 things which extend the range of SitW.
Nem wrote:I like the tail bio's and options listed. Depending on which units can take and the cost ofc.
I didn't know Cruddace had a Dakka account.
sorry, serious non-snarky answer above. With set strengths and no AP3-, tail weapons are beyond meh. Mace Tail might be taken for attacking vehicles, but let's face it, destroying vehicles in CC isn't exactly a weak point for Tyranids.
The Tail weapons reek of inclusion just so GW can say "See, we gave you your biomorphs back!".
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Post by: N.I.B.
Jesus help me, what am I reading? This is not a new codex, it's Cruddace 1.5.
I really hope there's something significant we don't know yet.
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Post by: SHUPPET
streamdragon wrote: Paroxysm: Not entirely awful. The biggest thing is that it doesn't, for now, say "to a minimum of 1" anywhere. So theoretically you could use this to prevent a unit from shooting or striking in CC at all if they are BS or WS 3 or less.
Your opinion is pretty accurate and I think I agree with everything you said, just thought I'd point out for you that the part I quoted is in BRB p.68 that Maledictions are cumulative but cannot take characteristics above 10 or below 1.
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Post by: streamdragon
SHUPPET wrote: streamdragon wrote:
Paroxysm: Not entirely awful. The biggest thing is that it doesn't, for now, say "to a minimum of 1" anywhere. So theoretically you could use this to prevent a unit from shooting or striking in CC at all if they are BS or WS 3 or less.
Your opinion is pretty accurate and I think I agree with everything you said, just thought I'd point out for you that the part I quoted is in BRB p.68 that Maledictions are cumulative but cannot take characteristics above 10 or below 1.
Well, that shows how often I use psychic powers I guess. So we can safely put Paroxysm into "why risk Perils?".
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
streamdragon wrote: SHUPPET wrote: streamdragon wrote: Paroxysm: Not entirely awful. The biggest thing is that it doesn't, for now, say "to a minimum of 1" anywhere. So theoretically you could use this to prevent a unit from shooting or striking in CC at all if they are BS or WS 3 or less.
Your opinion is pretty accurate and I think I agree with everything you said, just thought I'd point out for you that the part I quoted is in BRB p.68 that Maledictions are cumulative but cannot take characteristics above 10 or below 1.
Well, that shows how often I use psychic powers I guess. So we can safely put Paroxysm into "why risk Perils?".
Could be useful. Making a squad of hammernators hit on sixes doesn't sound too terrible (provided it removes 3 from WS and BS. Not enough details on how it works) Yeah, the tail weapons with set strength and No Ap is just silly. Shouldn't there be a strength bonus? Isn't that how nid weapons tend to work, by using the unit's stats and modifying it a bit? Or was that just 4th ed?
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Post by: AlexHolker
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yeah, the tail weapons with set strength and No Ap is just silly. Shouldn't there be a strength bonus? Isn't that how nid weapons tend to work, by using the unit's stats and modifying it a bit? Or was that just 4th ed?
I think that was 3rd. But yeah, it was a unique, cinematic rule. So they got rid of it.
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Post by: streamdragon
CthuluIsSpy wrote: streamdragon wrote: SHUPPET wrote: streamdragon wrote:
Paroxysm: Not entirely awful. The biggest thing is that it doesn't, for now, say "to a minimum of 1" anywhere. So theoretically you could use this to prevent a unit from shooting or striking in CC at all if they are BS or WS 3 or less.
Your opinion is pretty accurate and I think I agree with everything you said, just thought I'd point out for you that the part I quoted is in BRB p.68 that Maledictions are cumulative but cannot take characteristics above 10 or below 1.
Well, that shows how often I use psychic powers I guess. So we can safely put Paroxysm into "why risk Perils?".
Could be useful. Making a squad of hammernators hit on sixes doesn't sound too terrible (provided it removes 3 from WS and BS. Not enough details on how it works)
Yeah, the tail weapons with set strength and No Ap is just silly. Shouldn't there be a strength bonus? Isn't that how nid weapons tend to work, by using the unit's stats and modifying it a bit? Or was that just 4th ed?
We know how it works. -D3 to both WS and BS. And yes, it will make it easier for your to hit and harder for them to hit you in return. But with your (theoretically) much larger number of attacks (not to mention hopefully going first!) you shouldn't be struggling to wipe out small units like Hammernators, even at 2+.
Edit: Not sure why I assumed you're fighting Hammernators with Horms. I guess they could save your MC a few wounds, but you'd require a few very lucky rolls to shift combat that much in your favor.
"Why risk Perils" might be a bit of hyperbole, but it's still hardly a game changer. Flamer weapons, for instance, are untouched. Blast weapons still hit 1/3 of the time off the bat. Overwatch is also unchanged, since you're still BS1. It's not completely awful, I grant you. - BS in shooting-centric 6th is never bad. I'm not finding it a saving grace though.
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Post by: Ravajaxe
streamdragon wrote: schadenfreude wrote:The eldar and tau meta is not set up to handle a bum rush of small gribbles and mc all with reduced prices. 420 Points buys 60 hgaunts and 30 tgaunts in 3 troops slots
Sorry, wanted to give a real, non-snarky answer to this. Ork Boyz are only a few points more than Horms or Terms, are T4 and don't require Synapse support. They're hardly anything Eldar and Tau are "not set up to handle". With massed 30" S5 weapons or the ability to shoot you and then get away or all the other shenanigans available, swarms aren't exactly a weak spot for Eldar or Tau. Also, I have seen 2 things which extend the range of Synapse. 0 things which extend the range of SitW. Nem wrote:I like the tail bio's and options listed. Depending on which units can take and the cost ofc.
I didn't know Cruddace had a Dakka account. sorry, serious non-snarky answer above. With set strengths and no AP3-, tail weapons are beyond meh. Mace Tail might be taken for attacking vehicles, but let's face it, destroying vehicles in CC isn't exactly a weak point for Tyranids. The Tail weapons reek of inclusion just so GW can say "See, we gave you your biomorphs back!".
Orks hordes are a lumbering slow assault force. They hardly get into close combat before mid-game. They have low initiative. What you eludes about hormagaunts is their ability to effectively rush the enemy, ability to attack the enemy on a favourable path, and using cover. Sure, they are not T4, but have I5, and their combination of move though cover, fleet & bounding leap will allow them to cross the middle of the board by turn 1. Admitting I can't disagree with some of your negative points, but the general picture is not that dark. I do not think tyranids will be a super-powerful codex, like the overpowerness of tau & eldar. But what I see now leads me to think it will be fun and enjoyable to play, and play against. See, I have a mate in my gaming club who is a long time tyranid player : actually he is relieved of what he has seen. Nice little boosts here and there, new OK flyers, previoulsy overcosted units that get a points rebate, yet no cheese and OP that currently annoys and upsets tau / eldars opponents in my club. We have the chance of having a relax approach and not having much competitive WAAC behaviour (except in case of occasional tournament training). In this context, the internal & external imbalances of tau or eldar codices make potential opponent cringe when taking rendez-vous on one hand, and on the other hand players of these codices make promises of using only one riptide / wave serpent (or even none) etc... Yes, state of the game is that desperate. So if tyranid codex is closer to SM, DA levels, all the better.
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Post by: Souleater
I would have preferred 'mutation' over 'bio-artefact'.
Taking biomancy away from nids is nonsensical. It was the most useful and fluffy of the disciplines for them.
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Post by: Davor
N.I.B. wrote:Jesus help me, what am I reading? This is not a new codex, it's Cruddace 1.5.
I really hope there's something significant we don't know yet.
Don't you mean 2.0? Rumour is after all he wrote the book again, but GW not giving credit so we interneters can't blame a specific person this time.
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Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That
So what's the verdict on this new codex? 40k broken? Again!
Well, at least until the next book comes out...
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Post by: Ravajaxe
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:So what's the verdict on this new codex? 40k broken? Again!
Well, at least until the next book comes out...
Quite the opposite perhaps. W40k may be regenerating from the wounds caused by tau-dar.
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Post by: Davor
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:So what's the verdict on this new codex? 40k broken? Again!
Well, at least until the next book comes out...
How about play tested at least 5 times and not math hammered.
Wasn't it last year, that the Tau and Eldar codex before it was released, people, or should I say Chicken Little was saying those codecs sucked and wouldn't be any good? (wow auto correct plural of codex to codecs).
No wonder the world thinks of us gamers as geeks and nerds, and some even losers. We are complaining, crying, whaling about something that hasn't even come out yet, let alone try.
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Post by: N.I.B.
Davor wrote: N.I.B. wrote:Jesus help me, what am I reading? This is not a new codex, it's Cruddace 1.5.
I really hope there's something significant we don't know yet.
Don't you mean 2.0? Rumour is after all he wrote the book again, but GW not giving credit so we interneters can't blame a specific person this time.
No, I mean 1.5. It looks like the same codex, same old flaws with a sprinkle of new bits.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Davor wrote:Wasn't it last year, that the Tau and Eldar codex before it was released, people, or should I say Chicken Little was saying those codecs sucked and wouldn't be any good? (wow auto correct plural of codex to codecs).
How many leaked pictures of the Codex did those two rumour threads have?
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Post by: Stormbreed
Davor wrote: Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:So what's the verdict on this new codex? 40k broken? Again!
Well, at least until the next book comes out...
How about play tested at least 5 times and not math hammered.
Wasn't it last year, that the Tau and Eldar codex before it was released, people, or should I say Chicken Little was saying those codecs sucked and wouldn't be any good? (wow auto correct plural of codex to codecs).
No wonder the world thinks of us gamers as geeks and nerds, and some even losers. We are complaining, crying, whaling about something that hasn't even come out yet, let alone try.
You wanna walk blindly into Saturday or whenever you pick up your codex feel free, my eyes are wide open with the posted pages so far.
Army wide nerfs with slight improvement to point costs. Nids are gonna be in a bad spot.
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Post by: xttz
For those saying Dominion is worthless... I see potentially useful as a late-game or emergency "oh gak" option. It's all fine saying good players should have full synapse coverage, but there are times when you can lose control of some of board through unexpected actions or some really lucky dice rolls for your opponent.
All it takes is an unexpected string of poor armour saves (we've all had those moments) and you can find key units now have to assault the wrong target or won't shoot where you want them to.
There's also apparently nothing to prevent Synapse extension stacking, so for example if they Swarmlord has kept his 18" range he could cover a potentially massive 24" or even 30" radius. Throw in his movement range and it could easily help recover from a disaster.
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Post by: Kirasu
Orks hordes are a lumbering slow assault force. They hardly get into close combat before mid-game. They have low initiative.
What you eludes about hormagaunts is their ability to effectively rush the enemy, ability to attack the enemy on a favourable path, and using cover. Sure, they are not T4, but have I5, and their combination of move though cover, fleet & bounding leap will allow them to cross the middle of the board by turn 1.
This is what confuses me.. In THEORY hormagaunts rush the enemy but WHEN in recent memory have they ever been "effective" at it? The answer is pretty much never except when using the 3rd ed book.
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Post by: Maelstrom808
streamdragon wrote:Flesh Hooks/Spine Banks: So Flesh Hooks lose rending. We get assault grenades of a sort, but who wants to guess how many models that actually need them, will get to buy these. Carnifexes, unless there has been a great change, are probably still I1, so striking at I isnt exactly a BFD. I guess if I made a CC fex he'd at least get a S3 shooting attack! *finger twirl*
Warriors likely have access to flesh hooks as they are included in the new kit (good luck in getting them into combat though).
Overall I agree with your assessment of most of the stuff with the limited info we have on hand.
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Post by: ductvader
Personally, I think that the level of disappointment with everything we see here is due to a large portion of the community not understanding how these effects and abilities are going to play out against all of the different units that can take them. We were just handed a million tools with a million more ways to use them. Those arifacts, gonna be boss on a kitted prime or tyrant. Psychic powers, toned down from what they were but with vastly increased range...which for nonwitchfire is huge...it means we'll actually use them instead of just charging. And the biomorphs, oh the biomorphs. Say hello to fleeting flying I10 S7 reroll 1's to hit reroll all to wounds, instant death on 6s Tyrant...oh and you can give him 4+ pseudo it will not die or poison if you want.
The spit too? Bound to be fairly cheap and a fantastic anti tau/eldar weapon. Did it need to be ap3 or 2? No, because bugs have never had a problem killing 2+ or 3+ sv armies.
There's a whole lot of potential that people are missing.
Look at the ymgarl relic...on a prime in a squad? Fantastic!
Really, more than making a coordinated argument, I just wanted to geek out a little bit at all the possibilities.
Imagine running gargoyles into a squad, blinding them...and coordinating rippers into assault at the same time...awesome.
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Post by: streamdragon
 Maelstrom808 wrote: streamdragon wrote:Flesh Hooks/Spine Banks: So Flesh Hooks lose rending. We get assault grenades of a sort, but who wants to guess how many models that actually need them, will get to buy these. Carnifexes, unless there has been a great change, are probably still I1, so striking at I isnt exactly a BFD. I guess if I made a CC fex he'd at least get a S3 shooting attack! *finger twirl*
Warriors likely have access to flesh hooks as they are included in the new kit (good luck in getting them into combat though).
Overall I agree with your assessment of most of the stuff with the limited info we have on hand.
Which I agree is good for CC warriors. One of the few upsides. OTOH, warriors are still overpriced and relatively fragile, so 
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Post by: schadenfreude
Ravajaxe wrote: streamdragon wrote:
schadenfreude wrote:The eldar and tau meta is not set up to handle a bum rush of small gribbles and mc all with reduced prices. 420 Points buys 60 hgaunts and 30 tgaunts in 3 troops slots
Sorry, wanted to give a real, non-snarky answer to this. Ork Boyz are only a few points more than Horms or Terms, are T4 and don't require Synapse support. They're hardly anything Eldar and Tau are "not set up to handle". With massed 30" S5 weapons or the ability to shoot you and then get away or all the other shenanigans available, swarms aren't exactly a weak spot for Eldar or Tau.
Also, I have seen 2 things which extend the range of Synapse. 0 things which extend the range of SitW.
Nem wrote:I like the tail bio's and options listed. Depending on which units can take and the cost ofc.
I didn't know Cruddace had a Dakka account.
sorry, serious non-snarky answer above. With set strengths and no AP3-, tail weapons are beyond meh. Mace Tail might be taken for attacking vehicles, but let's face it, destroying vehicles in CC isn't exactly a weak point for Tyranids.
The Tail weapons reek of inclusion just so GW can say "See, we gave you your biomorphs back!".
Orks hordes are a lumbering slow assault force. They hardly get into close combat before mid-game. They have low initiative.
What you eludes about hormagaunts is their ability to effectively rush the enemy, ability to attack the enemy on a favourable path, and using cover. Sure, they are not T4, but have I5, and their combination of move though cover, fleet & bounding leap will allow them to cross the middle of the board by turn 1.
Admitting I can't disagree with some of your negative points, but the general picture is not that dark. I do not think tyranids will be a super-powerful codex, like the overpowerness of tau & eldar.
But what I see now leads me to think it will be fun and enjoyable to play, and play against. See, I have a mate in my gaming club who is a long time tyranid player : actually he is relieved of what he has seen. Nice little boosts here and there, new OK flyers, previoulsy overcosted units that get a points rebate, yet no cheese and OP that currently annoys and upsets tau / eldars opponents in my club. We have the chance of having a relax approach and not having much competitive WAAC behaviour (except in case of occasional tournament training). In this context, the internal & external imbalances of tau or eldar codices make potential opponent cringe when taking rendez-vous on one hand, and on the other hand players of these codices make promises of using only one riptide / wave serpent (or even none) etc... Yes, state of the game is that desperate.
So if tyranid codex is closer to SM, DA levels, all the better.
Pretty much what I was going to say. The Hgaunts have the speed for a full turn 2 assault. The speed would be more similar to dog pile than green tide.
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Post by: ductvader
Broodlord with Acid Blood...not a bad buy! You either win challenges, or probably win in death.
Also, Horrify pretty much gives Genestealers their own version of grenades 50% of the time.
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Post by: SHUPPET
Davor wrote: Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:So what's the verdict on this new codex? 40k broken? Again! Well, at least until the next book comes out...
How about play tested at least 5 times and not math hammered. Wasn't it last year, that the Tau and Eldar codex before it was released, people, or should I say Chicken Little was saying those codecs sucked and wouldn't be any good? (wow auto correct plural of codex to codecs). No wonder the world thinks of us gamers as geeks and nerds, and some even losers. We are complaining, crying, whaling about something that hasn't even come out yet, let alone try.
And listen to you, complaining and whining as in this thread much worse and more rudely than anybody doing what you mentioned. People are merely responding the the information giving to them, if you would like to point out some hidden combo that we are missing inside the confirmed information that Spore Pods & Doom have been taken out and that we can't roll on the Biomancy table anymore, feel free to enlighten the rest us. However if you don't have an opinion on the news at hand other than calling us all nerds and whiners and telling us "wait for the codex to judge", I would suggest you leave this thread entitled "Tyranid News & Rumours Discussion" and return to the thread entitled "Tyranid 6E Codex Discussion" when it is made.
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Post by: Eldercaveman
ductvader wrote:Personally, I think that the level of disappointment with everything we see here is due to a large portion of the community not understanding how these effects and abilities are going to play out against all of the different units that can take them. We were just handed a million tools with a million more ways to use them. Those arifacts, gonna be boss on a kitted prime or tyrant. Psychic powers, toned down from what they were but with vastly increased range...which for nonwitchfire is huge...it means we'll actually use them instead of just charging. And the biomorphs, oh the biomorphs. Say hello to fleeting flying I10 S7 reroll 1's to hit reroll all to wounds, instant death on 6s Tyrant...oh and you can give him 4+ pseudo it will not die or poison if you want.
The spit too? Bound to be fairly cheap and a fantastic anti tau/eldar weapon. Did it need to be ap3 or 2? No, because bugs have never had a problem killing 2+ or 3+ sv armies.
There's a whole lot of potential that people are missing.
Look at the ymgarl relic...on a prime in a squad? Fantastic!
Really, more than making a coordinated argument, I just wanted to geek out a little bit at all the possibilities.
Imagine running gargoyles into a squad, blinding them...and coordinating rippers into assault at the same time...awesome.
If you get a prime with a squad of warriors and the ymgarls upgrade to charge, boost to T6 (assuming he is still T5 stock) and have him tank the small arms fire overwatch.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
ductvader wrote:Broodlord with Acid Blood...not a bad buy! You either win challenges, or probably win in death.
Also, Horrify pretty much gives Genestealers their own version of grenades 50% of the time.
What does Acid Blood do now? Before it something that wasn't too impressive, iirc.
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Post by: schadenfreude
xttz wrote:For those saying Dominion is worthless... I see potentially useful as a late-game or emergency "oh gak" option. It's all fine saying good players should have full synapse coverage, but there are times when you can lose control of some of board through unexpected actions or some really lucky dice rolls for your opponent.
All it takes is an unexpected string of poor armour saves (we've all had those moments) and you can find key units now have to assault the wrong target or won't shoot where you want them to.
There's also apparently nothing to prevent Synapse extension stacking, so for example if they Swarmlord has kept his 18" range he could cover a potentially massive 24" or even 30" radius. Throw in his movement range and it could easily help recover from a disaster.
Or plunge enemy psykers into shadow on turn 1
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Post by: Eldercaveman
 schadenfreude wrote: xttz wrote:For those saying Dominion is worthless... I see potentially useful as a late-game or emergency "oh gak" option. It's all fine saying good players should have full synapse coverage, but there are times when you can lose control of some of board through unexpected actions or some really lucky dice rolls for your opponent.
All it takes is an unexpected string of poor armour saves (we've all had those moments) and you can find key units now have to assault the wrong target or won't shoot where you want them to.
There's also apparently nothing to prevent Synapse extension stacking, so for example if they Swarmlord has kept his 18" range he could cover a potentially massive 24" or even 30" radius. Throw in his movement range and it could easily help recover from a disaster.
Or plunge enemy psykers into shadow on turn 1
Synapse and Shadows haven't been confirmed to increase/decrease together.
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Post by: ductvader
CthuluIsSpy wrote: ductvader wrote:Broodlord with Acid Blood...not a bad buy! You either win challenges, or probably win in death. Also, Horrify pretty much gives Genestealers their own version of grenades 50% of the time.
What does Acid Blood do now? Before it something that wasn't too impressive, iirc.
A s5 ap2 hit on the unit that caused the wound. toxic miasma is similar...a s5 ap2 attack instead of all your attacks. Automatically Appended Next Post: Eldercaveman wrote:If you get a prime with a squad of warriors and the ymgarls upgrade to charge, boost to T6 (assuming he is still T5 stock) and have him tank the small arms fire overwatch.
True, but this only works for overwatch as it occurs during the assault phase, he doesn't get the T6 or if you choose, 2+ during any other phase. Actually, T6 wouldn't matter as he's part of the unit...unless you separated him from the unit...charged with him to tank overwatch...and then safely charge with the warriors.
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Post by: Eldercaveman
ductvader wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote: ductvader wrote:Broodlord with Acid Blood...not a bad buy! You either win challenges, or probably win in death.
Also, Horrify pretty much gives Genestealers their own version of grenades 50% of the time.
What does Acid Blood do now? Before it something that wasn't too impressive, iirc.
A s5 ap2 hit on the unit that caused the wound.
toxic miasma is similar...a s5 ap2 attack instead of all your attacks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldercaveman wrote:If you get a prime with a squad of warriors and the ymgarls upgrade to charge, boost to T6 (assuming he is still T5 stock) and have him tank the small arms fire overwatch.
True, but this only works for overwatch as it occurs during the assault phase, he doesn't get the T6 or if you choose, 2+ during any other phase.
Actually, T6 wouldn't matter as he's part of the unit...unless you separated him from the unit...charged with him to tank overwatch...and then safely charge with the warriors.
Sorry, yeah I meant separate him, I should have clarified that before.
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Post by: SHUPPET
xttz wrote:For those saying Dominion is worthless... I see potentially useful as a late-game or emergency "oh gak" option. It's all fine saying good players should have full synapse coverage, but there are times when you can lose control of some of board through unexpected actions or some really lucky dice rolls for your opponent. All it takes is an unexpected string of poor armour saves (we've all had those moments) and you can find key units now have to assault the wrong target or won't shoot where you want them to. There's also apparently nothing to prevent Synapse extension stacking, so for example if they Swarmlord has kept his 18" range he could cover a potentially massive 24" or even 30" radius. Throw in his movement range and it could easily help recover from a disaster.
This doesn't really change the fact that we just traded Iron Arm for an ability that is only useful at the rarest of times and even then would take a failed leadership roll and a bad roll on the IB table before you wished you had it in your arsenal. And even then I'd probably be happier that I rolled Iron Arm.
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Post by: ductvader
I don't see how people aren't excited...so many new toys to be used in so many new ways on so many units.
And all it takes for a mob of genestealers or warriors to be awesome is one psyker to get catalyst.
People need to remember that the current meta consists of S7 Tau, S7 Marines, S7 Necrons and S6-7 Eldar
IG and DE are the only armies currently prepared for what's to come.
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Post by: brassangel
ductvader wrote:Personally, I think that the level of disappointment with everything we see here is due to a large portion of the community not understanding how these effects and abilities are going to play out against all of the different units that can take them. We were just handed a million tools with a million more ways to use them. Those arifacts, gonna be boss on a kitted prime or tyrant. Psychic powers, toned down from what they were but with vastly increased range...which for nonwitchfire is huge...it means we'll actually use them instead of just charging. And the biomorphs, oh the biomorphs. Say hello to fleeting flying I10 S7 reroll 1's to hit reroll all to wounds, instant death on 6s Tyrant...oh and you can give him 4+ pseudo it will not die or poison if you want.
The spit too? Bound to be fairly cheap and a fantastic anti tau/eldar weapon. Did it need to be ap3 or 2? No, because bugs have never had a problem killing 2+ or 3+ sv armies.
There's a whole lot of potential that people are missing.
Look at the ymgarl relic...on a prime in a squad? Fantastic!
Really, more than making a coordinated argument, I just wanted to geek out a little bit at all the possibilities.
Imagine running gargoyles into a squad, blinding them...and coordinating rippers into assault at the same time...awesome.
This is how it goes with every codex. People take a rumor, make it seem awful, and then embellish the heck out of that slant.
I like your points on this, by the way!
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Post by: Kirasu
I'm pretty sure EVERY army is prepared for an expensive and easy to kill unit of genestealers.. Genestealers haven't been remotely scary since the days of stealer-shock.
Show me an army of genestealers and warriors and I'll show you someone who is about to get tabled.
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Post by: Eldercaveman
Kirasu wrote:I'm pretty sure EVERY army is prepared for an expensive and easy to kill unit of genestealers.. Genestealers haven't been remotely scary since the days of stealer-shock.
Show me an army of genestealers and warriors and I'll show you someone who is about to get tabled.
But look really cool doing it
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Post by: streamdragon
 brassangel wrote:This is how it goes with every codex. People take a rumor, make it seem awful, and then embellish the heck out of that slant.
I like your points on this, by the way!
We aren't really talking about rumors. We are talking about scanned and BL posted pages of the actual codex. Please try to keep up.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
ductvader wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote: ductvader wrote:Broodlord with Acid Blood...not a bad buy! You either win challenges, or probably win in death.
Also, Horrify pretty much gives Genestealers their own version of grenades 50% of the time.
What does Acid Blood do now? Before it something that wasn't too impressive, iirc.
A s5 ap2 hit on the unit that caused the wound.
toxic miasma is similar...a s5 ap2 attack instead of all your attacks.
Toxic Miasma is One Use Only, s3 ap-, Poison that hits all models engaged with the toxic miasma creature. It has ignores cover as it's done in CC, but not a CC attack.
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Post by: MadmanMSU
ductvader wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote: ductvader wrote:Broodlord with Acid Blood...not a bad buy! You either win challenges, or probably win in death.
Also, Horrify pretty much gives Genestealers their own version of grenades 50% of the time.
What does Acid Blood do now? Before it something that wasn't too impressive, iirc.
A s5 ap2 hit on the unit that caused the wound.
toxic miasma is similar...a s5 ap2 attack instead of all your attacks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldercaveman wrote:If you get a prime with a squad of warriors and the ymgarls upgrade to charge, boost to T6 (assuming he is still T5 stock) and have him tank the small arms fire overwatch.
True, but this only works for overwatch as it occurs during the assault phase, he doesn't get the T6 or if you choose, 2+ during any other phase.
Actually, T6 wouldn't matter as he's part of the unit...unless you separated him from the unit...charged with him to tank overwatch...and then safely charge with the warriors.
The new Yrmgarl does not add +1 to toughness (not that it matters in this case).
Its +1 attack, +1 strength, or +1 armor.
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Post by: Thranriel
ductvader wrote:
Eldercaveman wrote:If you get a prime with a squad of warriors and the ymgarls upgrade to charge, boost to T6 (assuming he is still T5 stock) and have him tank the small arms fire overwatch.
True, but this only works for overwatch as it occurs during the assault phase, he doesn't get the T6 or if you choose, 2+ during any other phase.
Actually, T6 wouldn't matter as he's part of the unit...unless you separated him from the unit...charged with him to tank overwatch...and then safely charge with the warriors.
Toughness isn't an option its Sv, A or Str. Probably because they intend it to be 1 model in a group?
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Post by: ductvader
streamdragon wrote: brassangel wrote:This is how it goes with every codex. People take a rumor, make it seem awful, and then embellish the heck out of that slant.
I like your points on this, by the way!
We aren't really talking about rumors. We are talking about scanned and BL posted pages of the actual codex. Please try to keep up.
While his term "rumor" was incorrect, his point was still right on.
90% of the community right now leaning to that slant...and not seeing how great a ton of this stuff is.
Sure, it's all mediocre if we were running an army of MEQ, which is the lense many people unintentionally wear when looking at these facts...but how strong a weapon can you really allow a tyrant to have...on top of his access to other biomorphs? Automatically Appended Next Post:  Thranriel wrote: ductvader wrote:
Eldercaveman wrote:If you get a prime with a squad of warriors and the ymgarls upgrade to charge, boost to T6 (assuming he is still T5 stock) and have him tank the small arms fire overwatch.
True, but this only works for overwatch as it occurs during the assault phase, he doesn't get the T6 or if you choose, 2+ during any other phase.
Actually, T6 wouldn't matter as he's part of the unit...unless you separated him from the unit...charged with him to tank overwatch...and then safely charge with the warriors.
Toughness isn't an option its Sv, A or Str. Probably because they intend it to be 1 model in a group?
My bad on forgetting that, still, a Prime can tank a fair number of wounds with a 2+.
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Post by: xttz
Regarding Onslaught... don't forget that FMC's can run 2D6" with it. This means you can not only put a Flyrant, Harpy or Crone into the enemy deployment zone on turn 1, but it can easily be beside/behind vehicles AND allowed to fire. Also Adrenal Glands means Fleet for (F)MC's. Throw it on your Flyrant to re-roll that 2D6".
6E means Flying Nidzilla...
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Post by: ductvader
xttz wrote:Regarding Onslaught... don't forget that FMC's can run 2D6" with it. This means you can not only put a Flyrant, Harpy or Crone into the enemy deployment zone on turn 1, but it can easily be beside/behind vehicles AND allowed to fire. Also Adrenal Glands means Fleet for (F) MC's. Throw it on your Flyrant to re-roll that 2D6". 6E means Flying Nidzilla...
I was just saying this on Natfka, Flying Daemons have nothing on this. Eventually I think it'll even lead to the reduction (no, not elimination) in other MCs meta wide Automatically Appended Next Post: ...or imagine getting warp lance on your flyrant...well I guess that depends on the whole ML1 v ML2 thing
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Post by: Eldercaveman
Thranriel wrote: ductvader wrote:
Eldercaveman wrote:If you get a prime with a squad of warriors and the ymgarls upgrade to charge, boost to T6 (assuming he is still T5 stock) and have him tank the small arms fire overwatch.
True, but this only works for overwatch as it occurs during the assault phase, he doesn't get the T6 or if you choose, 2+ during any other phase.
Actually, T6 wouldn't matter as he's part of the unit...unless you separated him from the unit...charged with him to tank overwatch...and then safely charge with the warriors.
Toughness isn't an option its Sv, A or Str. Probably because they intend it to be 1 model in a group?
In that case he doesn't need to leave the unit, and can just tank the wounds on a 2+
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Post by: tetrisphreak
xttz wrote:Regarding Onslaught... don't forget that FMC's can run 2D6" with it. This means you can not only put a Flyrant, Harpy or Crone into the enemy deployment zone on turn 1, but it can easily be beside/behind vehicles AND allowed to fire. Also Adrenal Glands means Fleet for (F) MC's. Throw it on your Flyrant to re-roll that 2D6".
6E means Flying Nidzilla...
To further expand on your (well-made) point, the entire Hive Mind psychic power table is maledictions and/or blessings, aside from Warp Blast. This means that whatever you roll on your Tyrants, Tervigons, etc you'll be able to cast these buffs/debuffs without forgoing your shooting attacks, as in the past. For example, - paroxysm used to take up one of the hive tyrants shooting attacks. Now, it's only a D3 modifier (but even WS3 marines need 5's to hit a tyrant, and on average they'll be WS2 if the power goes off). It's also got double the previous range (well +6" if you factor in movement speed of a walking tyrant, or the same range if you factor in a winged tyrant, but i digress). Catalyst - is great. FNP on 2 units for the price of one! Too bad it's not guaranteed on anything. The Horror - a -2 Ld check will pin most backfield units ( Ld 7-8) quite frequently. Even if you can't assault the turn you debuff them, you're preventing that unit from firing effectively in the following turn (target tau markerlights, or snipers on a quad gun, etc). In fact the horror works great during a turn in which flyers are about to arrive - you can pin the enemy unit with interceptor and skyfire (riptides are LD9, and not fearless - you can pin them 50% of the time). Then they're only snapfiring at your reserves.
I'm cautiously optimistic about this book - it WILL come down to the abilities of the units themselves coupled with accurate point costs for what they're capable of. I want a Hive Tyrant that can take on a Daemon Prince (not necessarily the swarmlord) and I think with the right upgrades that can be made to happen. We will see. It's just a few more days now but i can't wait to start making lists and test-rolling some scenarios with this new book.
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Post by: Thranriel
xttz wrote:Regarding Onslaught... don't forget that FMC's can run 2D6" with it. This means you can not only put a Flyrant, Harpy or Crone into the enemy deployment zone on turn 1, but it can easily be beside/behind vehicles AND allowed to fire. Also Adrenal Glands means Fleet for (F) MC's. Throw it on your Flyrant to re-roll that 2D6".
6E means Flying Nidzilla...
I like the idea of this and the AP4 flamer.
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Post by: roxor08
I can't help but be disappointed from the rumors/leaks so far. I just have to wait til I get it in my hands to make my final judgements.
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Post by: ductvader
Glad to see some people putting the bits together!
And we've yet to even see the fun of our "ordinary" units.
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Post by: Backlash
We still havnt seen anything that denies access to biomancy. So as it stands we probably still have access.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
Backlash wrote:We still havnt seen anything that denies access to biomancy. So as it stands we probably still have access.
When we see Bestiary entries for our Psyker units that's when we'll know.
"A Hive Tyrant generates psychic powers from the Hive Mind, Biomancy, and Telekinesis Tables" or "A BroodLord always has The Horror psychic power" etc
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Post by: ductvader
Backlash wrote:We still havnt seen anything that denies access to biomancy. So as it stands we probably still have access.
Between reduced prices, uber IWND, and uber catalyst...we don't really need it...at all.
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Post by: Redemption
Hive Crone is T5 W5 4+, and his Drool cannon is AP4 with no Torrent. Thanks GW.
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Post by: Eldercaveman
Backlash wrote:We still havnt seen anything that denies access to biomancy. So as it stands we probably still have access.
From the description on the Psychic Cards, it leaves my confident that we will have some access to it. Whether it is just certain units, or a rule like the chaos psykers where you have to roll on Tyranid table, and then you may roll your rest of your powers on either.
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Post by: ductvader
Redemption wrote:Hive Crone is T5 W5 4+, and his Drool cannon is AP4 with no Torrent. Thanks GW.
Crone's abilities are supposed to be Vector Strike Oriented, Your Harpy is your gunbird.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
Redemption wrote:Hive Crone is T5 W5 4+, and his Drool cannon is AP4 with no Torrent. Thanks GW.
Source? Do we have new pics up somewhere?
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