Hear me out... Abaddon has a red blood angel helmet in his trophy rack. Old art or not, they chose to show art with blood angels fighting the black legion.
Then on Abaddons base is a gold wing, one that closely resembles Sanguinors. Could this be foreshadowing not only blood angels coming to Vigilus at its apex? But rather new models and maybe even the death of the old characters for blood angels?
I know who the Sanguinor actually is... but there’s something here I think.
Edit: on closer inspection clearly not sanguinor shaped. But the other points remain. Also next to the LT that’s pretty clearly a second blood ange helmet in the mud.
I have already a small DG battalion detachment semi-painted and I really wonder should I finish it now. Then make CSM army with these new guys to run with it and these would match quite well.
Good thing I got time so I can finish my GSC piling up (wallet still gurts).
Pyronick wrote: Hear me out... Abaddon has a red blood angel helmet in his trophy rack. Old art or not, they chose to show art with blood angels fighting the black legion.
Then on Abaddons base is a gold wing, one that closely resembles Sanguinors. Could this be foreshadowing not only blood angels coming to Vigilus at its apex? But rather new models and maybe even the death of the old characters for blood angels?
I know who the Sanguinor actually is... but there’s something here I think.
Edit: on closer inspection clearly not sanguinor shaped. But the other points remain. Also next to the LT that’s pretty clearly a second blood ange helmet in the mud.
Given he's standing on an ultramarine lieutenant, it's likely a veteran ultramarine helmet rather than a blood angel one.
Pyronick wrote: Hear me out... Abaddon has a red blood angel helmet in his trophy rack. Old art or not, they chose to show art with blood angels fighting the black legion.
Then on Abaddons base is a gold wing, one that closely resembles Sanguinors. Could this be foreshadowing not only blood angels coming to Vigilus at its apex? But rather new models and maybe even the death of the old characters for blood angels?
I know who the Sanguinor actually is... but there’s something here I think.
Edit: on closer inspection clearly not sanguinor shaped. But the other points remain. Also next to the LT that’s pretty clearly a second blood ange helmet in the mud.
Not current sanguinor shaped, but primaris sanguinor shaped is possible.
Pyronick wrote: Hear me out... Abaddon has a red blood angel helmet in his trophy rack. Old art or not, they chose to show art with blood angels fighting the black legion.
Then on Abaddons base is a gold wing, one that closely resembles Sanguinors. Could this be foreshadowing not only blood angels coming to Vigilus at its apex? But rather new models and maybe even the death of the old characters for blood angels?
I know who the Sanguinor actually is... but there’s something here I think.
Edit: on closer inspection clearly not sanguinor shaped. But the other points remain. Also next to the LT that’s pretty clearly a second blood ange helmet in the mud.
Given he's standing on an ultramarine lieutenant, it's likely a veteran ultramarine helmet rather than a blood angel one.
Having a close look, it looks like possibly a metal aquila. It is possibly connected to the flame also on the base. It may have been part of a banner held by the SM veteran ultramarine who is on the base.
aracersss wrote: did anyone notice the new apostle?
PD: new scale comparison
Wow. Abaddon looks so, so much better than Guilliman, it's not even funny.
Also funny that it's more subdued, too. Didn't see that coming.
10 times better TBH
I don't know where you see that ""better"", Abby still suffers from the same issue as all oldmarines (namely, the torso the lenght of his forearm). G has actual, human proportions, in both torso and limbs, with correctly sized head to height ratio (1:7) while Abbaddoo has comical, child sized 1:5. At least his terminator armor FINALLY doesn't have arms coming out of ears but to not break the iconic terminator silhouette they needed to put pauldrons above his arms which looks even more silly. Methinks someone stared at old, garbage 'heroic' anatomy so long actual humans look weird now
As for details, model is nice, but something bugged me about Talon. After looking at FW version, I realized what - sculptor converted it from side-loaded to top-loader... Without thinking for a second the most natural pose of human arm is fingers down, not up. If Armless tries to rotate arm to slash downwards the ammo belts are going to hopelessly tangle with his arm cables and fingers. Compared to Talon, G's Hand actually has feed naturally supporting his arm in proper shooting pose, instead of only looking good with comical posturing, and the ammo supply not only allows him to shoot for longer than 2 seconds but is actually armored to not have any random mook detonate his bullets with frakking laspistol, unlike Talon
aracersss wrote: did anyone notice the new apostle? PD: new scale comparison
Wow. Abaddon looks so, so much better than Guilliman, it's not even funny.
Also funny that it's more subdued, too. Didn't see that coming.
10 times better TBH
I don't know where you see that ""better"", Abby still suffers from the same issue as all oldmarines (namely, the torso the lenght of his forearm). G has actual, human proportions, in both torso and limbs, with correctly sized head to height ratio (1:7) while Abbaddoo has comical, child sized 1:5. At least his terminator armor FINALLY doesn't have arms coming out of ears but to not break the iconic terminator silhouette they needed to put pauldrons above his arms which looks even more silly. Methinks someone stared at old, garbage 'heroic' anatomy so long actual humans look weird now
As for details, model is nice, but something bugged me about Talon. After looking at FW version, I realized what - sculptor converted it from side-loaded to top-loader... Without thinking for a second the most natural pose of human arm is fingers down, not up. If Armless tries to rotate arm to slash downwards the ammo belts are going to hopelessly tangle with his arm cables and fingers. Compared to Talon, G's Hand actually has feed naturally supporting his arm in proper shooting pose, instead of only looking good with comical posturing, and the ammo supply not only allows him to shoot for longer than 2 seconds but is actually armored to not have any random mook detonate his bullets with frakking laspistol, unlike Talon
As for human proportions, they are both just wearing armour so I don't exactly expect perfect human proportions. Really Abaddon is following the terminator style which is why he looks really small in his armour but that is the look they go for with that if you notice.
I have to admit the top loading ammo is a bit of a mistake by the artist for Abaddon that I didn't notice at first. Yeah pretty funny mistake.
Seeing them side-by-side confirms my suspicion that they were modeled as a diorama of sorts and mirrors of each other. Pretty cool. The bent eagle wing is basically foreshadowing what'll happen to Big Smurf
It's also quite shocking to see how much better Abaddon is as a model, better proportions, better pose, better use of ornamentation, better detail placement, even the paintjob is better!
I love it. I had zero hype for Abaddon, but he completely knocked my socks off. Favourite model in quite some time. I'm pondering what the last model was that felt so...cohesive. The Slaughterpriest with axe, maybe.
Is the eye inside of the Chaos star a Black Legion symbol or a more generic Chaos symbol? I thought it was more specific to the Black Legion (I assumed a holdover from the eye of Horus) but someone else said it was just a common CSM symbol.
(I figure it's fair to ask here instead of in Background as the question has to do with the new models.)
That Abaddon model is amazing. Everything I have been waiting years for. I know it is going to be too expensive. I just hope GW doesn't gouge us too much.
I agree that I kinda miss the old Chaos Terminator trophy racks he used to have, especially how much the new one really changes the silhouette of the new model. However, just about everything else is done so well. I am sure in time I will become accustomed to it.
It is a tough call on the cape. I think I am probably go with cape on since many of my Black Legion HQs also have their capes. But ultimately, it depends on how much like the details that the cape will hide.
This makes me feel a little better as the more rumors of the price of Shadowspear come out the less interest I find myself having in the box set. There just wasn't enough of what I wanted (especially for easy to build models and a few duplicates) for the price that keeps popping up. I keep looking at several more kill teams I want to build/finish that would see far more game time for the price of Shadowspear rumors. And those models will see far more game time from me.
Anyone have a guess to how much GW is likely to sell the new Chaos Space Marine kit for if/when it finally gets a separate release? I am thinking it could easily be $60 US and as much as $75. That seems like a lot to me but not outside the realm of what GW would charge.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: That Abaddon model is amazing. Everything I have been waiting years for. I know it is going to be too expensive. I just hope GW doesn't gouge us too much.
I agree that I kinda miss the old Chaos Terminator trophy racks he used to have, especially how much the new one really changes the silhouette of the new model. However, just about everything else is done so well. I am sure in time I will become accustomed to it.
It is a tough call on the cape. I think I am probably go with cape on since many of my Black Legion HQs also have their capes. But ultimately, it depends on how much like the details that the cape will hide.
This makes me feel a little better as the more rumors of the price of Shadowspear come out the less interest I find myself having in the box set. There just wasn't enough of what I wanted (especially for easy to build models and a few duplicates) for the price that keeps popping up. I keep looking at several more kill teams I want to build/finish that would see far more game time for the price of Shadowspear rumors. And those models will see far more game time from me.
Anyone have a guess to how much GW is likely to sell the new Chaos Space Marine kit for if/when it finally gets a separate release? I am thinking it could easily be $60 US and as much as $75. That seems like a lot to me but not outside the realm of what GW would charge.
I don't know usd prices but I'd imagine £30 or the equivalent for 10
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: That Abaddon model is amazing. Everything I have been waiting years for. I know it is going to be too expensive. I just hope GW doesn't gouge us too much.
I agree that I kinda miss the old Chaos Terminator trophy racks he used to have, especially how much the new one really changes the silhouette of the new model. However, just about everything else is done so well. I am sure in time I will become accustomed to it.
It is a tough call on the cape. I think I am probably go with cape on since many of my Black Legion HQs also have their capes. But ultimately, it depends on how much like the details that the cape will hide.
This makes me feel a little better as the more rumors of the price of Shadowspear come out the less interest I find myself having in the box set. There just wasn't enough of what I wanted (especially for easy to build models and a few duplicates) for the price that keeps popping up. I keep looking at several more kill teams I want to build/finish that would see far more game time for the price of Shadowspear rumors. And those models will see far more game time from me.
Anyone have a guess to how much GW is likely to sell the new Chaos Space Marine kit for if/when it finally gets a separate release? I am thinking it could easily be $60 US and as much as $75. That seems like a lot to me but not outside the realm of what GW would charge.
I don't know usd prices but I'd imagine £30 or the equivalent for 10
Intercessors and Reivers are £35, I doubt these will be cheaper.
defwolf wrote: Why does Abaddon need tracer rounds? Doesn't his machine spirit keep track of his ammo? Lol
1. Who says they’re tracer rounds? The marking designations of a military that’s millennia dead and superseded several times over?
2. What do tracers have to do with “keeping track of ammo” exactly?
3. His armour’s machine spirit spends most of its time growling at Drach’nyen these days. The sword growls right back. Abbadon thinks this is both hilarious and adorable.
I was just joking but when I was in the service 100 years ago in the age of the M60 you could count your tracers as a way of estimating your ammo left. we used to run a 4 to 1 tracer ratio so you know every tracer is 5 rounds.
I feel like it's a miracle that Abaddon doesn't get tangled up in all the bits and bobs hanging from him. Just wait till the wind blows in a different direction and his top-knot is going to get caught in his trophy rack. Swing his arm the wrong way and his bolt rounds will get caught in his power armor pipe and his skull-on-chain will wrap around his foot.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: That Abaddon model is amazing. Everything I have been waiting years for. I know it is going to be too expensive. I just hope GW doesn't gouge us too much.
I agree that I kinda miss the old Chaos Terminator trophy racks he used to have, especially how much the new one really changes the silhouette of the new model. However, just about everything else is done so well. I am sure in time I will become accustomed to it.
It is a tough call on the cape. I think I am probably go with cape on since many of my Black Legion HQs also have their capes. But ultimately, it depends on how much like the details that the cape will hide.
This makes me feel a little better as the more rumors of the price of Shadowspear come out the less interest I find myself having in the box set. There just wasn't enough of what I wanted (especially for easy to build models and a few duplicates) for the price that keeps popping up. I keep looking at several more kill teams I want to build/finish that would see far more game time for the price of Shadowspear rumors. And those models will see far more game time from me.
Anyone have a guess to how much GW is likely to sell the new Chaos Space Marine kit for if/when it finally gets a separate release? I am thinking it could easily be $60 US and as much as $75. That seems like a lot to me but not outside the realm of what GW would charge.
I don't know usd prices but I'd imagine £30 or the equivalent for 10
Intercessors and Reivers are £35, I doubt these will be cheaper.
Does the black legion have some magic number that is less than 10?
I don't know where you see that ""better"", Abby still suffers from the same issue as all oldmarines (namely, the torso the lenght of his forearm). G has actual, human proportions, in both torso and limbs, with correctly sized head to height ratio (1:7) while Abbaddoo has comical, child sized 1:5.
The thing is, in a model range where everyone else is heroicly scaled, a model that has 'normal' proportions looks out of scale.
That's the big problem with Robert. It's not the model is bad. It's that it looks like a 54mm scale sculpt of a regular (possibly slightly skinny, once you remove the armour) human, rather than a 28mm scale sculpt of a hulking giant.
Abaddon, by contrast, looks suitably beefy. He's still bigger than I would prefer, but at least he looks like he fits into the same model range as his followers.
I like that they gave him 3 head variants, just wish that one was a full helmet, as I have always hated his stupid 3ft tall topknot...
I will of course cut it off, if I get him, but It would be nice if he had a really crazy chaos helmet as an alternative.
The noble/calmer head is great though, I always thought he was a bit 'Teenagey Ragey' in the original sculpt. But then again, I was a teenager when he came out (barely...).
Galas wrote: I can only hope that the new Chaos Termi kit will have all the crazy rhino and elephant horned helmets.
I always loved those. My favourite terminator helmets of all time.
I have no issue with them, but I always liked Araghast the Pillager (of Dawn of War II: Chaos Rising) helmet style for terminator armor. I used that helmet as much as I could for my Chaos terminators.
Galas wrote: I can only hope that the new Chaos Termi kit will have all the crazy rhino and elephant horned helmets.
I always loved those. My favourite terminator helmets of all time.
Amen
I still don't think that we are getting new termies, but if we do, I hope the helmets have the same style
Automatically Appended Next Post: must say that a genestealr skull on Abby trophy rack is a bit........ underwhelming. He's the warmaster, not some second string lieutenant who would be proud of slaying such a creature
must say that a genestealr skull on his trophy wrack is a bit........ underwhelming. He's the warmaster, not some second string lieutenant who would be proud of slaying such a creature
must say that a genestealr skull on his trophy wrack is a bit........ underwhelming. He's the warmaster, not some second string lieutenant who would be proud of slaying such a creature
The original metal Abaddon had one though...
The original Abaddon faced much scarier genestealers...
must say that a genestealr skull on his trophy wrack is a bit........ underwhelming. He's the warmaster, not some second string lieutenant who would be proud of slaying such a creature
The original metal Abaddon had one though...
The original Abaddon faced much scarier genestealers...
Maybe that is the skull of the last scary genestealer.
What you have said is more likely... but I think it would be neat if they made the rotor cannon S3 (like the Heresy-era version) or even S2, but a bucket load of shots. This would make it statistically better at killing weak units than Space Marines, and really cement it into a chaff-killing role. Probably not going to happen though.
I request using math first. At S2 this weapon need to be HEAVY 30 to even do 3 wounds to guardsmen in cover, or Heavy 20 at S3. To kill chaff it should probably be S5 Heavy 6 (and yes this means Heavy bolsters are awful, but they always have been).
I'd rather S3 heavy 20 than S5 heavy 6- at least then the battlefield role is clear, and it isn't another variant of heavy bolter-type weapon. Also, rolling the dice for a unit of Havoks with 4 would be great fun
Anyway, why is 3 wounds-per-turn the benchmark? Even a plasmagun, one of the best man-portable weapons of this edition, could only kill two guardsmen at best, and a heavy bolter could only kill three at best. If the weapon is cheap (say, 4-5pts), and a unit is chucking out a lot of shots, it will do the job. If you really want to, add some suppression mechanic so it doesn't have to outright kill units.
If your anti-chaff weapon can’t kill 12 points of chaff then it sucks. CSM and SM are already at an almost insurmountable disadvantage in 8th edition 40k. They need useful firepower. Anything less than that is expanding the gap further.
streetsamurai wrote: I still don't think that we are getting new termies, but if we do, I hope the helmets have the same style
I didn't think that either, but GW's art reflects the miniatures (look at the Dark Apostle on the new cover - his backpack and burning book match the Rumour Engine pics exactly, and remember that this entire thread got started because of the "Chaos Tick" in that one piece of artwork), and there's a Terminator with a sword in that pic.
Neither the Chaos Termy nor Termy Lord kit has a sword.
The Nurgle and 1KSons kits do, but it looks like a Black Legion termy to me. For that reason I think we're getting new Termies, or at least a new character with a sword or giant mace option.
I'm pretty jazzed about most of these.
Incursion: Summoning daemons without having to give up movement (and potential mortal wounds) makes building a sideboard a lot more palatable.
Sacrifice: Fluffy and very useful. I run a lot of daemon engines, but my stupid warpsmiths can never keep up. Now I can cut them and fix my machines.
Invigoration: Siturational, but helps iron out the major flaws in those random units. Some possessed, a greater possessed, and a MoP in a termite drill would make a pretty gnarly hammer.
Possession: Gotta be at least one dud I guess. No ones going to pay the points for a spawn or greater possessed on the off chance a MoP makes it into combat and wins against a character.
Cursed Earth/Infernal Power: makes the MoP a pretty dope gunline commander. Oblits or forgefiends (or venomcrawlers maybe?) start looking meaty.
must say that a genestealr skull on his trophy wrack is a bit........ underwhelming. He's the warmaster, not some second string lieutenant who would be proud of slaying such a creature
The original metal Abaddon had one though...
The original Abaddon faced much scarier genestealers...
Maybe that is the skull of the last scary genestealer.
Now I’m just waiting to see people’s converted trophy racks.
I want to see skulls from that kit full of skulls, all the big ones, a carnifex head (isn’t there one with half it’s face to the bone?), wraith Lord helmed, maybe I titans head. Hmm Let’s see, what else...
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Possession one is nice, cast that if you know you might kill character,particularly a marine, and get a Greater Possessed.
Possession + warlord traits and relics could lead to some humorous situations of a MoP running around blowing up vehicles all over the place, but it's not great.
The big winners will be possessed with Cursed Earth, and Oblits being buffed by Infernal Power to finally re-roll wounds, and perhaps Invigoration. 3++ tzeentch possessed or 4++/5+++ slaanesh ones if you bring a regular sorc will be really inefficient to shoot at.
Lord of Skulls with Cursed Earth and regular Sacrifices will be funny.
Also, i notice that the 1ksons and DG summoning strat are redundant with Incursion since those both give a 4th die and protection from MW. But can you use the Word Bearers strat with it? 4d6, no MW, and re-roll any die would be killer.
aracersss wrote: did anyone notice the new apostle?
PD: new scale comparison
Wow. Abaddon looks so, so much better than Guilliman, it's not even funny.
Also funny that it's more subdued, too. Didn't see that coming.
10 times better TBH
I don't know where you see that ""better"", Abby still suffers from the same issue as all oldmarines (namely, the torso the lenght of his forearm). G has actual, human proportions, in both torso and limbs, with correctly sized head to height ratio (1:7) while Abbaddoo has comical, child sized 1:5. At least his terminator armor FINALLY doesn't have arms coming out of ears but to not break the iconic terminator silhouette they needed to put pauldrons above his arms which looks even more silly. Methinks someone stared at old, garbage 'heroic' anatomy so long actual humans look weird now
As for details, model is nice, but something bugged me about Talon. After looking at FW version, I realized what - sculptor converted it from side-loaded to top-loader... Without thinking for a second the most natural pose of human arm is fingers down, not up. If Armless tries to rotate arm to slash downwards the ammo belts are going to hopelessly tangle with his arm cables and fingers. Compared to Talon, G's Hand actually has feed naturally supporting his arm in proper shooting pose, instead of only looking good with comical posturing, and the ammo supply not only allows him to shoot for longer than 2 seconds but is actually armored to not have any random mook detonate his bullets with frakking laspistol, unlike Talon
Realistic human proportions are not something I want in my miniatures. Excessive realism and anatomical correctness completely ruin the absurdist fantasy of the 40k setting. Not only that but realistically proportioned sculpts are not nearly as effective in expressing the character of a sculpt when scaled down to 28mm. There is a very good fundamental design reason for the hyper exaggerated features of the older sculpts. Go too realistic with scale and things like facial features become even more impossible to actually appreciate on the tabletop.
The proportions and the push toward tacticool are definitely my two biggest gripes with the Primaris line and the direction loyalist marines are headed. It's a good thing I'm more of a Chaos player. These issues are no where near as prevalent in the new CSM range, based on everything they've revealed so far.
I'm happy Abaddon retained his characteristic bulk and didn't end up getting all weirdly lanky and stretched out-looking like Guilliman
If i'm not mistaken if you use Invigoration on a big unit of Oblits, who you just happen to put VOTLW and then the Slannesh fire twice strat. And each time you fire you'd get a re-roll for the fleshmetal gun stats.
I started Chaos in 2nd edition and even though I went to eventually all Khorne marines by 3rd edition I had Abbadon as my commander at one point.
Then models got physically larger to the point where old Abby looks like a Chaos Dwarf even next to a pleb marine.
I'm glad he looks to be to the correct proportion again. I've been eagerly awaiting a new, updated WE codex but in the meantime I will for sure be building a Black Legion army once again.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Without a helmet wouldn't his head kinda vanish amongst all that without the topknot?
If we are getting a new Termy kit I wonder if one of the heads there would fit?
This is what I'm thinking of doing. waiting for the terminator kit to release and then seeing if some of the suitable ornate looking helmets (if any) in it would work with abbadon.
aracersss wrote: did anyone notice the new apostle? PD: new scale comparison
Wow. Abaddon looks so, so much better than Guilliman, it's not even funny.
Also funny that it's more subdued, too. Didn't see that coming.
10 times better TBH
I don't know where you see that ""better"", Abby still suffers from the same issue as all oldmarines (namely, the torso the lenght of his forearm). G has actual, human proportions, in both torso and limbs, with correctly sized head to height ratio (1:7) while Abbaddoo has comical, child sized 1:5. At least his terminator armor FINALLY doesn't have arms coming out of ears but to not break the iconic terminator silhouette they needed to put pauldrons above his arms which looks even more silly. Methinks someone stared at old, garbage 'heroic' anatomy so long actual humans look weird now
As for details, model is nice, but something bugged me about Talon. After looking at FW version, I realized what - sculptor converted it from side-loaded to top-loader... Without thinking for a second the most natural pose of human arm is fingers down, not up. If Armless tries to rotate arm to slash downwards the ammo belts are going to hopelessly tangle with his arm cables and fingers. Compared to Talon, G's Hand actually has feed naturally supporting his arm in proper shooting pose, instead of only looking good with comical posturing, and the ammo supply not only allows him to shoot for longer than 2 seconds but is actually armored to not have any random mook detonate his bullets with frakking laspistol, unlike Talon
Realistic human proportions are not something I want in my miniatures. Excessive realism and anatomical correctness completely ruin the absurdist fantasy of the 40k setting. Not only that but realistically proportioned sculpts are not nearly as effective in expressing the character of a sculpt when scaled down to 28mm. There is a very good fundamental design reason for the hyper exaggerated features of the older sculpts. Go too realistic with scale and things like facial features become even more impossible to actually appreciate on the tabletop.
The proportions and the push toward tacticool are definitely my two biggest gripes with the Primaris line and the direction loyalist marines are headed. It's a good thing I'm more of a Chaos player. These issues are no where near as prevalent in the new CSM range, based on everything they've revealed so far.
I'm happy Abaddon retained his characteristic bulk and didn't end up getting all weirdly lanky and stretched out-looking like Guilliman
You articulated my biggest gripe I had with the primaris range!
Thank you (yoinks).
To expand on this...
The Exaggeration as you say is missing from these miniatures which is a key part of 40k. Because thats what we have now with the Suppressors and Aggressors they just look silly, not really fitting in the grim dark universe. I give gak to the dreadknight, or dreadnought, or the centurion but at least they make sense, they are still based on something, and use a similar design. These new primaris units don't and they are missing the exaggeration on the whole image. Go all out if you want to exaggerate, if the suppressors had a giant jumppack and huge arms to heave the gun go ahead. But right now it looks silly and as id4chan puts it eloquently grimderpy.
Abaddon's model is fascintating because it is designed and exaggerated, the model has interesting body parts but who cares the model is stellar, its like people who say they love picasso's early work compared to his later work. Even though artistically and with originality people love Picasso's later works because they are exaggerations of the human form.
Getting the human form right is the hardest thing to do. So don't. Unless you want to measure everything in the golden ratio then the model will just look awkward without it.
Marshal Loss wrote: Abaddon is spectacular. Over the moon. Can't wait to see the new kits that will follow in his wake.
If "an army's worth of new models to show" is genuine and not just a puff piece in that article, it definitely looks like a full reboot of the line.
I've had a Black Legion project on my mind for quite a few years now but never got around to it because the models were just too old. Seems like I can finally start it
Marshal Loss wrote: Abaddon is spectacular. Over the moon. Can't wait to see the new kits that will follow in his wake.
If "an army's worth of new models to show" is genuine and not just a puff piece in that article, it definitely looks like a full reboot of the line.
I've had a Black Legion project on my mind for quite a few years now but never got around to it because the models were just too old. Seems like I can finally start it
As have I and these new primaris models are any indicator I am just going to run my bog standard regular marines as primaris and just say all of them are void born. But I have been thinking about starting a Black Legion army for a long long time.
These malefic powers are amazing. I decided to start my podcast / YouTube channel a week early just to talk about how good the malefic powers are and all the combos I'm seeing:
Marshal Loss wrote: Abaddon is spectacular. Over the moon. Can't wait to see the new kits that will follow in his wake.
If "an army's worth of new models to show" is genuine and not just a puff piece in that article, it definitely looks like a full reboot of the line.
I've had a Black Legion project on my mind for quite a few years now but never got around to it because the models were just too old. Seems like I can finally start it
Looks like the baseline csm are getting updates with Abby. Terminators, multipart CSM, Havocs, Dark Apostle, probably a multipart tick tank. Maybe a few more characters too? Seems comparable to the Death Guard or Thousand Sons release, minus a Primarch model.
Marshal Loss wrote: Abaddon is spectacular. Over the moon. Can't wait to see the new kits that will follow in his wake.
If "an army's worth of new models to show" is genuine and not just a puff piece in that article, it definitely looks like a full reboot of the line.
I've had a Black Legion project on my mind for quite a few years now but never got around to it because the models were just too old. Seems like I can finally start it
Looks like the baseline csm are getting updates with Abby. Terminators, multipart CSM, Havocs, Dark Apostle, probably a multipart tick tank. Maybe a few more characters too? Seems comparable to the Death Guard or Thousand Sons release, minus a Primarch model.
Definitely seems that way. I'd say Abbadon is the "Primarch" equivalent for this faction.
under possession "Add a greater possessed model", so new character type confirmed. Of note this is only if your slay a space marine, otherwise the character you killed is replaced with a chaos spawn.
under possession "Add a greater possessed model", so new character type confirmed. Of note this is only if your slay a space marine, otherwise the character you killed is replaced with a chaos spawn.
Yes, already revealed. Shadowspear comes with two of them
Marshal Loss wrote: Abaddon is spectacular. Over the moon. Can't wait to see the new kits that will follow in his wake.
If "an army's worth of new models to show" is genuine and not just a puff piece in that article, it definitely looks like a full reboot of the line.
I've had a Black Legion project on my mind for quite a few years now but never got around to it because the models were just too old. Seems like I can finally start it
Looks like the baseline csm are getting updates with Abby. Terminators, multipart CSM, Havocs, Dark Apostle, probably a multipart tick tank. Maybe a few more characters too? Seems comparable to the Death Guard or Thousand Sons release, minus a Primarch model.
The only reason that the Malefic Discipline is <Legion> locked is so that Mortarion and Magnus will get no benefit from it, after it's revealed that Death Guard and Thousand Sons cannot take Masters of Possession.
After all, the Obscuration Discipline isn't <Chapter> locked...
The only reason that the Malefic Discipline is <Legion> locked is so that Mortarion and Magnus will get no benefit from it, after it's revealed that Death Guard and Thousand Sons cannot take Masters of Possession.
After all, the Obscuration Discipline isn't <Chapter> locked...
Maybe. But I doubt it. I think they just try to delineate clearly from the Daemons Codex, being wary of the CSM-Daemon-Codex rules-overlaps. While some cross-overs still exist, they've clearly been burned with deepstriking Primarchs, etc..
The only reason that the Malefic Discipline is <Legion> locked is so that Mortarion and Magnus will get no benefit from it, after it's revealed that Death Guard and Thousand Sons cannot take Masters of Possession.
After all, the Obscuration Discipline isn't <Chapter> locked...
I agree with you, DG and TS likely won't be able to take neither one of the <Legion> locked powers. I believe to gain access to those powers, you need a detachment from the CSM codex, which doesn't include neither DG nor TS as an available legion.
This means, the power will be locked to one of the legion in the CSM codex.
The only question is: if you use a stratagem to change a power and choose Mortarion to take one of those, would it gain <Legion> = DeathGuard, or would it remain with the original keyword?
The only reason that the Malefic Discipline is <Legion> locked is so that Mortarion and Magnus will get no benefit from it, after it's revealed that Death Guard and Thousand Sons cannot take Masters of Possession.
After all, the Obscuration Discipline isn't <Chapter> locked...
I agree with you, DG and TS likely won't be able to take neither one of the <Legion> locked powers. I believe to gain access to those powers, you need a detachment from the CSM codex, which doesn't include neither DG nor TS as an available legion.
This means, the power will be locked to one of the legion in the CSM codex.
The only question is: if you use a stratagem to change a power and choose Mortarion to take one of those, would it gain <Legion> = DeathGuard, or would it remain with the original keyword?
Hope you get what I mean..
You won't be able to, because the Strategems call out exactly which tables you can take the new power from and Malefic isn't on the list (for obvious reasons). If they decide DG and TS shouldn't have access, they don't need to change anything. If they do want to give Mortarion access, they'll need to errata stuff at which point the question is moot.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Getting a guaranteed 3 Wounds back has to worth shanking a Warpsmith, surely?
Unless Warpsmiths are generally pretty pants, and this is not in fact reason enough to field one?
problems with that, A a warpsmith still is 55pts has a repair ability and a damage ability, he is versatile, the engine that you heal, not so much.
B: daemonengines are not really good enough in an allready more meh then good codex. Mostly due to bs 4 + degrading and bad pricing.
C: daemonengines also can self heal+ warpsmith, if you really want to keep it alive i will concede the point but still feels like a too high price.
Also only daemons engines not hellbrutes, etc.
I found daemon engines in 8th are great. Defilers especially.
I regularly take Maulers, Forges and Defilers definitely.
After the point drop in CA 2018 + now this? Stellar.
Making a "Daemonkin/engine" themed list will be very cool and will be very decent on the table. (May not top ITC charts but you sure as heck won't steamroll over it)
Ahriman21 wrote: I found daemon engines in 8th are great. Defilers especially.
I regularly take Maulers, Forges and Defilers definitely.
After the point drop in CA 2018 + now this? Stellar.
Making a "Daemonkin/engine" themed list will be very cool and will be very decent on the table. (May not top ITC charts but you sure as heck won't steamroll over it)
Granted a castle list with lot of sacrifices may work if you get enough reroll auras.
Don't forget the Kytan Ravager, which at 410 points is almost too cheap since CA2018, and fully benefits from all the new Daemon and Daemon engine buffs and psychic powers.
Voss wrote: My question is when a bullet whip became his primary weapon.
Seems impractical.
Put those puppies in a pair of magazines.
rule of cool i guess.
plus you can imagine abby has countless buzzing daemon servo cherub drone weirdos around him all the time attending to his ammo needs.
Those maleific powers, when some of the combos sink in two of these guys are gonna be auto-include in most CSM armies.
You articulated my biggest gripe I had with the primaris range!
Thank you (yoinks).
To expand on this...
The Exaggeration as you say is missing from these miniatures which is a key part of 40k. Because thats what we have now with the Suppressors and Aggressors they just look silly, not really fitting in the grim dark universe. I give gak to the dreadknight, or dreadnought, or the centurion but at least they make sense, they are still based on something, and use a similar design. These new primaris units don't and they are missing the exaggeration on the whole image. Go all out if you want to exaggerate, if the suppressors had a giant jumppack and huge arms to heave the gun go ahead. But right now it looks silly and as id4chan puts it eloquently grimderpy.
Abaddon's model is fascintating because it is designed and exaggerated, the model has interesting body parts but who cares the model is stellar, its like people who say they love picasso's early work compared to his later work. Even though artistically and with originality people love Picasso's later works because they are exaggerations of the human form.
Getting the human form right is the hardest thing to do. So don't. Unless you want to measure everything in the golden ratio then the model will just look awkward without it.
I like the idea of giving Supperssors Inceptor backpacks, and Centurion arms (especially those pistons). I wonder if it would be possible to move the autocannon to a shoulder mount, but without a bigger torso and pauldrons, I don't think it works.
FW chaos hellwright is a nice one combo with the MoP and a big daemon engine
he has 5 wounds and gains one back a turn!
pop sacrifice on him and thats 3 wounds + his natural d3 healing ability for up to 6 and he gets that wound he lost back start of your next turn.
If T Sons can get the malefic discipline things are going to be wild. 4 disciplines mix n match. 3++ tzaangor enlightened. Bringing triple Defiler lists with triple heal (temporal manipulation, sactifice, warpsmith) plus infernal regeneration and 4++ saves from cursed earth.
Defilers + demonic strength + scourge + flickering flames + infernal power + triple heal + prescience + weaver of fates + glamour of tzeentch = slightly overkill or just right?
Latro_ wrote: FW chaos hellwright is a nice one combo with the MoP and a big daemon engine
he has 5 wounds and gains one back a turn!
pop sacrifice on him and thats 3 wounds + his natural d3 healing ability for up to 6 and he gets that wound he lost back start of your next turn.
Weak. Just go 3 Lord of Skulls and a Master of Possession.
Latro_ wrote: FW chaos hellwright is a nice one combo with the MoP and a big daemon engine
he has 5 wounds and gains one back a turn!
pop sacrifice on him and thats 3 wounds + his natural d3 healing ability for up to 6 and he gets that wound he lost back start of your next turn.
Weak. Just go 3 Lord of Skulls and a Master of Possession.
or a kytan with a 4+ inv healing an average of 6 wounds back a turn
topaxygouroun i wrote: If T Sons can get the malefic discipline things are going to be wild. 4 disciplines mix n match. 3++ tzaangor enlightened. Bringing triple Defiler lists with triple heal (temporal manipulation, sactifice, warpsmith) plus infernal regeneration and 4++ saves from cursed earth.
Defilers + demonic strength + scourge + flickering flames + infernal power + triple heal + prescience + weaver of fates + glamour of tzeentch = slightly overkill or just right?
Nah, How is that OP. Then your defiler wiffs because if its 4+ WS and you just spent a warpsmith, a possessed sorceror plus how many psychic powers just to buff it. Stack so many psychic/strategms on any killy unit and it becomes OP. Its not new. Like a Slam Captain can take down a knight if you stack psychic and strategems on him.
Combos are always good. CSM could do with more neat combos. But they are no more game breaking than say a Castellan warlod with a 4++ save going down to 3++ who can use Order of companies and on a Cawl's wrath to do obscene damage. There is no way CSM can get a 2++ save, its in the rules. Even getting a 4++ isn't easy and getting a 3++ probably needs some kind of inventive stacking, and yet, all the loyalists have to do to get 3++ all the time is to take a storm shield.
topaxygouroun i wrote: If T Sons can get the malefic discipline things are going to be wild. 4 disciplines mix n match. 3++ tzaangor enlightened. Bringing triple Defiler lists with triple heal (temporal manipulation, sactifice, warpsmith) plus infernal regeneration and 4++ saves from cursed earth.
Defilers + demonic strength + scourge + flickering flames + infernal power + triple heal + prescience + weaver of fates + glamour of tzeentch = slightly overkill or just right?
Nah, How is that OP. Then your defiler wiffs because if its 4+ WS and you just spent a warpsmith, a possessed sorceror plus how many psychic powers just to buff it. Stack so many psychic/strategms on any killy unit and it becomes OP. Its not new. Like a Slam Captain can take down a knight if you stack psychic and strategems on him.
Combos are always good. CSM could do with more neat combos. But they are no more game breaking than say a Castellan warlod with a 4++ save going down to 3++ who can use Order of companies and on a Cawl's wrath to do obscene damage. There is no way CSM can get a 2++ save, its in the rules. Even getting a 4++ isn't easy and getting a 3++ probably needs some kind of inventive stacking, and yet, all the loyalists have to do to get 3++ all the time is to take a storm shield.
Defiler in this setup has 8 attacks on 4+ rerolling 1's, and you can pay for daemonforge if you don't feel like that's enough for a 145 pt model. Said attacks are also str 18 (str 14 with the scourge) dealing d6 damage each, so with a death hex you can quite nicely completely kill said Castellan in a single turn with your 145 pt model. Thousand Sons have 10-12 spell casts in their core lists anyways. You really don't invest much more than what you already would in any other list, and a hth defiler clocks really really cheap. It also has a huge base - with two of them you can probably block whole quarters on the table and is a prime target for niche stuff like warpflame gargoyles.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Word Bearer Masters of Possession are gonna be fun I guess.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but as someone who has been toying with the idea of a Word Bearers force even before this release, I hope you are right.
I guess I should brush up on the actual Chaos rules.
topaxygouroun i wrote: If T Sons can get the malefic discipline things are going to be wild.
Yes please, I would like a -3 AP Black Staff
I don't think Sons characters will unlock Malefic, that would be too much (4 disciplines to pick from) even for Thousand Sons. But maybe the Master of Possession can be a THOUSAND SONS character.
If it's what you suggested... oh my god. Daemon Prince with diabolic strength and possession. 8 attacks, Ws2+ rerollable, str 9, ap-4, D2. Dude will be carrying lascannon hands.
So I honestly don’t recall, and it doesn’t effect me since I’m Loyalist Marines, but does 40k make you pay points in advance for summoned models or are those Spawn and Greater Possessed from the psychic powers totally free?
AduroT wrote: So I honestly don’t recall, and it doesn’t effect me since I’m Loyalist Marines, but does 40k make you pay points in advance for summoned models or are those Spawn and Greater Possessed from the psychic powers totally free?
99% chance that you will have to reserve points for them in matched play. Which would make possession completely useless on the MoP itself, but maybe useful (for the -2ap) on a stronger hth caster like a Daemon Prince.
In a narrative play if Magnus could cast possession he could make two spawns for everything he kills in hth.
topaxygouroun i wrote: If T Sons can get the malefic discipline things are going to be wild. 4 disciplines mix n match. 3++ tzaangor enlightened. Bringing triple Defiler lists with triple heal (temporal manipulation, sactifice, warpsmith) plus infernal regeneration and 4++ saves from cursed earth.
Defilers + demonic strength + scourge + flickering flames + infernal power + triple heal + prescience + weaver of fates + glamour of tzeentch = slightly overkill or just right?
Were not going to get access to Malefic most likely. Due to being able to have an entire army with a 3++ save.
topaxygouroun i wrote: If T Sons can get the malefic discipline things are going to be wild. 4 disciplines mix n match. 3++ tzaangor enlightened. Bringing triple Defiler lists with triple heal (temporal manipulation, sactifice, warpsmith) plus infernal regeneration and 4++ saves from cursed earth.
Defilers + demonic strength + scourge + flickering flames + infernal power + triple heal + prescience + weaver of fates + glamour of tzeentch = slightly overkill or just right?
Were not going to get access to Malefic most likely. Due to being able to have an entire army with a 3++ save.
An army with a 3++ save would definitely have a lot going for it.
topaxygouroun i wrote: If T Sons can get the malefic discipline things are going to be wild. 4 disciplines mix n match. 3++ tzaangor enlightened. Bringing triple Defiler lists with triple heal (temporal manipulation, sactifice, warpsmith) plus infernal regeneration and 4++ saves from cursed earth.
Defilers + demonic strength + scourge + flickering flames + infernal power + triple heal + prescience + weaver of fates + glamour of tzeentch = slightly overkill or just right?
Were not going to get access to Malefic most likely. Due to being able to have an entire army with a 3++ save.
How would you manage that? Rubrics, Tzaangors, Enlighened, all the sorcerers apart from Ahriman, scarab occult, the daemon engines, they all have a 5++ only. You could get cursed earth for 4++ only on the daemon engines and the enlighened and then you could have one unit only with a 3++ after you cast both your spells successfully.. Which I don't really see the problem with, given that GW apparently believes 3++ is worth 2 points a model.
I think people have the wrong idea about what a Thousand Sons list actually is.
As a Crimson Slaughter fan, I'm saddened by the likelyhood of no new possessed other than the Greater possessed. But everything else so far for chaos looks mint af.
As a side note that's probably a terrible focus for the thread, anyone got any possessed conversion ideas?
Tiberius501 wrote: As a Crimson Slaughter fan, I'm saddened by the likelyhood of no new possessed other than the Greater possessed. But everything else so far for chaos looks mint af.
As a side note that's probably a terrible focus for the thread, anyone got any possessed conversion ideas?
In the last Voxcaster podcast Jes Goodwin expressed "lesser" possessed being either something that they are working on, have done or want updated. I don't remember specifically what he said but it gave me the impression that you can reasonably expect possessed.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Word Bearer Masters of Possession are gonna be fun I guess.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but as someone who has been toying with the idea of a Word Bearers force even before this release, I hope you are right.
I guess I should brush up on the actual Chaos rules.
Well they have their own Strategem that boosts summoning. Hide the guy wherever, attempt your summon in the movement phase, then cast this power for a second summon.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Word Bearer Masters of Possession are gonna be fun I guess.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but as someone who has been toying with the idea of a Word Bearers force even before this release, I hope you are right.
I guess I should brush up on the actual Chaos rules.
Well they have their own Strategem that boosts summoning. Hide the guy wherever, attempt your summon in the movement phase, then cast this power for a second summon.
It's more fun than anything.
Well it's actually quite good. You can summon A Herald and a unit of pink horrors. And casting cursed earth means we they all have a 3+ invul save. Not a bad unit.
Well it's actually quite good. You can summon A Herald and a unit of pink horrors. And casting cursed earth means we they all have a 3+ invul save. Not a bad unit.
I don't think there are Pink Horrors with a Legion Keyword. They won't benefit from Cursed Earth.
they could make normal chaos space marines less crap by making possessed a model upgrade e.g. 1 in 3 can be possessed. i might email GW
yea no cursed earth on normal daemons very clear on the <legion> bit on the powers and pure daemons even from the actual CSM codex don't have a legion keyword.
What i'm wondering if the incursion power allows you to move in the movement phase and summon? because you could do some interesting stuff if you don't have to of stayed still.
Some new stuff we haven't seen. A couple of warlord traits that both look quite useful.
The fact that they dont even suggest with a peep that there needs to be rules changes to the standard CSM, just a casual "Heys here are some cool new models, enjoy", is truly dissapointing imho.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Getting a guaranteed 3 Wounds back has to worth shanking a Warpsmith, surely?
Unless Warpsmiths are generally pretty pants, and this is not in fact reason enough to field one?
problems with that, A a warpsmith still is 55pts has a repair ability and a damage ability, he is versatile, the engine that you heal, not so much.
B: daemonengines are not really good enough in an allready more meh then good codex. Mostly due to bs 4 + degrading and bad pricing.
C: daemonengines also can self heal+ warpsmith, if you really want to keep it alive i will concede the point but still feels like a too high price.
Also only daemons engines not hellbrutes, etc.
30 T7 3+/4++ wounds. A VC in melee can heal D3 + 3 + 2 in one turn.
They kick off 6D3 S9 AP2 D3 shots - all assault so no move penalty while you work them toward combat. WS & BS do not degrade. Likely 4 / 3 / 2 on attacks, which means 12 S9 AP3 D3 plus 6 S7 AP2 D2.
Stick Abaddon, cultists, and maulerfiends in the mix and watch them slice and dice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ceorron wrote: Hey GW America site list Abaddon, Chaos Bikers and Dark Apostle as "No Longer Available".
Some new stuff we haven't seen. A couple of warlord traits that both look quite useful.
The fact that they dont even suggest with a peep that there needs to be rules changes to the standard CSM, just a casual "Heys here are some cool new models, enjoy", is truly dissapointing imho.
Check the distinction between the "Traitor Legions" and the "Daemonkin" in the CSM entry. Looks clear to me that the Daemonkin will be a complete different codex from the CSM one. If that's the case, it would be weird to change their rules only in one of the codexes. Also, the CSM are about as useless as your standard tactical marines, so there's that.
Some new stuff we haven't seen. A couple of warlord traits that both look quite useful.
The fact that they dont even suggest with a peep that there needs to be rules changes to the standard CSM, just a casual "Heys here are some cool new models, enjoy", is truly dissapointing imho.
Disappointing? Or a clever indication that they don't want to hint that a new Codex is on the way?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well they have their own Strategem that boosts summoning. Hide the guy wherever, attempt your summon in the movement phase, then cast this power for a second summon.
It's more fun than anything.
Ah, cool, because what I am after is a fun to play, conversion focused force that also has a good bit of Daemons and Possession. Mostly because I think it's cool, and I like my head-cannon idea of Word Bearers and what I imagine their stylized look could be (lots of books, "Impurity" seals, hoods, robes, script, and runes). Plus, for some reason, over 10 years ago I bought a gak load of daemon models too.
Daemonkin seems to be exactly what the doctor ordered in this case. Trouble will be acquiring the skills needed to do it right, along with the time.
Funny how the rules of the fleshmetal weapons make the obliterators incompatible to be buffed by the greater possessed in the only phase where they really matter.
I get the feeling that the Dark Apostle model is just gone as soon as it sells out. No replacement
But we maybe getting new bikes!!!!!
There's a dark apostle right next to Abaddon in the artwork of the reveal. And there have been two Daemon Engine rumours that match the picture (one of the flaming book and one of the candle rack on his back). I'd say we are 100% getting a new Dark Apostle. Although with 5 pt cultists I don't know how much will this matter.
So, Obliterators got a sizeable buff.... is it 4 shot guns to 6 shot? Plus an additional wound, and the ability to take any unit size again (which we had in 3rd edition)
ph34r wrote: So, Obliterators got a sizeable buff.... is it 4 shot guns to 6 shot? Plus an additional wound, and the ability to take any unit size again (which we had in 3rd edition)
Do we know what cost increase if any?
We suspect they are probably getting to the 110-120 pt per model range.
ph34r wrote: So, Obliterators got a sizeable buff.... is it 4 shot guns to 6 shot? Plus an additional wound, and the ability to take any unit size again (which we had in 3rd edition)
Do we know what cost increase if any?
No points have been leaked, but we do know for sure that Oblits are Power Level 6. For 1 model.
Considering they were PL10 for 3 models before, it is very safe to assume 2 Oblits will cost about the same or MORE than 3 Oblits before
So while you do get +1W, +1T and 2 more shots per model, it breaks down about like this:
Kind of a wash really. Neither a buff nor a nerf. Aside from some side buff, like 3 Newblits getting 18 shots doubled to 36, but you will be paying 50% more for that than before
Some new stuff we haven't seen. A couple of warlord traits that both look quite useful.
The fact that they dont even suggest with a peep that there needs to be rules changes to the standard CSM, just a casual "Heys here are some cool new models, enjoy", is truly dissapointing imho.
Check the distinction between the "Traitor Legions" and the "Daemonkin" in the CSM entry. Looks clear to me that the Daemonkin will be a complete different codex from the CSM one. If that's the case, it would be weird to change their rules only in one of the codexes. Also, the CSM are about as useless as your standard tactical marines, so there's that.
This entire release is focused on demonkin of the black legion. Seems to me there will be no separation.
Some new stuff we haven't seen. A couple of warlord traits that both look quite useful.
The fact that they dont even suggest with a peep that there needs to be rules changes to the standard CSM, just a casual "Heys here are some cool new models, enjoy", is truly dissapointing imho.
Check the distinction between the "Traitor Legions" and the "Daemonkin" in the CSM entry. Looks clear to me that the Daemonkin will be a complete different codex from the CSM one. If that's the case, it would be weird to change their rules only in one of the codexes. Also, the CSM are about as useless as your standard tactical marines, so there's that.
I basically agree. The idea that CSMs actually provide the core of anyone's CSM army is nonsense. They can't actually believe that.
What this tells us is that CSMs do not get new rules in the new codex, or in Vigulus II. If they did you can bet they wouldn't publish the old datasheet in Shadowspear. So 13pt CSMs now have to somehow fight 17pt intercessors, who have 2 wounds, 2 attacks and a better gun. Seems legit...
I'm heavily against using Sorcerers in my World Eaters, but I'm probably gonna try squeeze the MoP in, and headcanon it as being some sort of count-as Khorne Blood Priest.
(Which Khorne have in both AoS and 9th Age, but not in 40k for some reason.)
Rite of Possession screams Khornate anti-psyker-ala-brass-collar to me, and since most of his powers only affect Daemons in the first place anyway...
MinscS2 wrote: I'm heavily against using Sorcerers in my World Eaters, but I'm probably gonna try squeeze the MoP in, and headcanon it as being some sort of count-as Khorne Blood Priest.
(Which Khorne have in both AoS and 9th Age, but not in 40k for some reason.)
Rite of Possession screams Khornate anti-psyker-ala-brass-collar to me, and since most of his powers only affect Daemons in the first place anyway...
I think a WE release in the same vein as Death Guard and 1k Sons is highly likely. Your faith in Khorne may well be rewarded by some kind of 40k blood priest
MinscS2 wrote: I'm heavily against using Sorcerers in my World Eaters, but I'm probably gonna try squeeze the MoP in, and headcanon it as being some sort of count-as Khorne Blood Priest.
(Which Khorne have in both AoS and 9th Age, but not in 40k for some reason.)
Rite of Possession screams Khornate anti-psyker-ala-brass-collar to me, and since most of his powers only affect Daemons in the first place anyway...
I think a WE release in the same vein as Death Guard and 1k Sons is highly likely. Your faith in Khorne may well be rewarded by some kind of 40k blood priest
Death guard yes. Thousand Sons not so much. The performance of individual HQs is great, but if you look at the codex closely, it consists by the rubrics + scarabs, then there's an insertion of tzeentch goats from AOS (tzaangors, tzaangor enlightened, shaman, mutalith vortex beast), and then they fill in the codex with the most generic CSM stuff: here's your hellbrute, tanks and daemon engines. "Ok, that should be enough units, call it a day".
Khorne does not have the equivalent influx from AOS units to be their main stars, so what would a Khornate codex be? All the hthCSM options plus berzerkers in troop? Why do we need a dedicated god codex for this?
Unless some new crazy khorne-only stuff appear, I don't think we are going to see a new Khorne codex. Oh and we are definitely not seeing a Slaanesh one any time soon.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Getting a guaranteed 3 Wounds back has to worth shanking a Warpsmith, surely?
Unless Warpsmiths are generally pretty pants, and this is not in fact reason enough to field one?
problems with that, A a warpsmith still is 55pts has a repair ability and a damage ability, he is versatile, the engine that you heal, not so much.
B: daemonengines are not really good enough in an allready more meh then good codex. Mostly due to bs 4 + degrading and bad pricing.
C: daemonengines also can self heal+ warpsmith, if you really want to keep it alive i will concede the point but still feels like a too high price.
Also only daemons engines not hellbrutes, etc.
30 T7 3+/4++ wounds. A VC in melee can heal D3 + 3 + 2 in one turn.
They kick off 6D3 S9 AP2 D3 shots - all assault so no move penalty while you work them toward combat. WS & BS do not degrade. Likely 4 / 3 / 2 on attacks, which means 12 S9 AP3 D3 plus 6 S7 AP2 D2.
Stick Abaddon, cultists, and maulerfiends in the mix and watch them slice and dice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ceorron wrote: Hey GW America site list Abaddon, Chaos Bikers and Dark Apostle as "No Longer Available".
I was thinking something similar, although with Word Bearers.
1. Lord with Voice of Lorgar trait.
2. New dude using Cursed Earth and the summoning Power.
3. 3 Venomcrawlers and 3 Forgefiends spread out just so to protect them.
4. Cultists I guess.
While offensively less powerful than Abigail giving rerolls, it is significantly cheaper and less clustered overall. Then you keep summoning whatever you feel like whilst you go forward.
Some new stuff we haven't seen. A couple of warlord traits that both look quite useful.
The fact that they dont even suggest with a peep that there needs to be rules changes to the standard CSM, just a casual "Heys here are some cool new models, enjoy", is truly dissapointing imho.
Check the distinction between the "Traitor Legions" and the "Daemonkin" in the CSM entry. Looks clear to me that the Daemonkin will be a complete different codex from the CSM one. If that's the case, it would be weird to change their rules only in one of the codexes. Also, the CSM are about as useless as your standard tactical marines, so there's that.
I basically agree. The idea that CSMs actually provide the core of anyone's CSM army is nonsense. They can't actually believe that.
What this tells us is that CSMs do not get new rules in the new codex, or in Vigulus II. If they did you can bet they wouldn't publish the old datasheet in Shadowspear. So 13pt CSMs now have to somehow fight 17pt intercessors, who have 2 wounds, 2 attacks and a better gun. Seems legit...
They and Tactical Marines were already having to do that.
I still take issue with Chaos Marines not having Vet stats ar minimum. It's silly.
When it comes to basic CSM, I remember in the previous edition I did the math to try and find the theoretical point difference between CSM and Tactical marines based on statistical difference. I found that you needed almost 17 model CSM to equal the performance of a 10 model tactical squad. While I haven't done the math, this edition doesn't seem much different, except for the generally worse performance of power armor. Sometimes I want to just field some evil sisters of battle to count as CSM squads, because that's about what they're equal to.
For CSM squads to ever be worthwhile enough to take GW needs to start treating them as the more Veteran marines they're suppose to be and make them closer to Chosen.
ceorron wrote: Hey GW America site list Abaddon, Chaos Bikers and Dark Apostle as "No Longer Available".
Pure speculation here, with the death guard, WE, BL, terminators, marines etc all fighting together in this cover art and Abbadon being the one to unit all forces of chaos together, is there a chance we could see the new BL codex get a similar unit to Death Watch veterans?
Pure speculation here, with the death guard, WE, BL, terminators, marines etc all fighting together in this cover art and Abbadon being the one to unit all forces of chaos together, is there a chance we could see the new BL codex get a similar unit to Death Watch veterans?
IF they gave Black Legion their own codex, I imagine they'd get some sort of unit uniting veteran worshippers of all 4 gods.
Some new stuff we haven't seen. A couple of warlord traits that both look quite useful.
The fact that they dont even suggest with a peep that there needs to be rules changes to the standard CSM, just a casual "Heys here are some cool new models, enjoy", is truly dissapointing imho.
There's no change to standard CSM rules in shadowspear ... I understand why tho : changing the rules for standard CSM would necessarily means that they would have to change the rule for standard marine as well. And that's a no go since they need to sell those primaris.
The master of possession, with the help of some venomcrawler, is going to be a damn good psycker with all those warlord traits.
Pure speculation here, with the death guard, WE, BL, terminators, marines etc all fighting together in this cover art and Abbadon being the one to unit all forces of chaos together, is there a chance we could see the new BL codex get a similar unit to Death Watch veterans?
Man, a theoretical chaos marine release where they get updated sculpts for their most beloved named character, a rebooted basic troop box, heavy weapon team box, terminator box, and biker box ON TOP OF a bunch of new stuff...
That'd be the dream release. I'd be blown away, tbh, I don't think I've ever seen GW nail "what the players actually want out of a model release" that perfectly well since I've been playing 40k.
the_scotsman wrote: Man, a theoretical chaos marine release where they get updated sculpts for their most beloved named character, a rebooted basic troop box, heavy weapon team box, terminator box, and biker box ON TOP OF a bunch of new stuff...
That'd be the dream release. I'd be blown away, tbh, I don't think I've ever seen GW nail "what the players actually want out of a model release" that perfectly well since I've been playing 40k.
If it actually did happen, of course.
And all of it hinges on if they fix the basic marine statline....which they almost certainly will not :(
Maybe as a community we are not vocal enough with GW about tac marines and CSM... like they faq and sort a lot of stuff now... they must see from their tournament monitoring they go to the LVO FFS... no one takes these two units anymore... they're rubbish. perhaps they just dont know hoe to fix em.
fingers cross the new vig book has a nice detachment in it which does some CSM buffing like the last one did to centurions. Its sad but you can see why they down play tac marines with the new primrisi poster boys but CSM... you are releasing new sculpts of this unit that is at best a display shelf or modelling unit
Basic Chaos Space Marines have unfortunately taken the brunt of the entire Primaris-change. Even as a casual player I do find it hard to justify normal Space Marines (though I take them anyway, they just evaporate in waves of cheap super-efficient models most of the time).
Loyalist marines...it's easy to understand. Primaris are 100% replacing them, and GW has been clever to make Primaris units better in every appreciable way thus far. Tactical marines received a further slap in the face when almost every other basic marine unit received a points drop (Veterans are what, one point more expensive?). So loyalist tactical marines are dead and gone, but they have a replacement. We knew no new models were coming out for loyalist marines. Sure the old classic kits will float around another 5-6 years or whatever.
However with Chaos Space Marines we're now getting a brand new kit (even if we only get the push-fit kit)...so that means CSM are basic infantry for another 10 years or more. Can you fix CSM without applying similar rules to tactical marines? If you fix tactical marines you could risk invalidating Primaris, the new shiny toys. So oddly, the loser of this entire thing is the basic humble Chaos Space Marine. Unfortunate.
Y'know, that Abaddon sculpt is so good it almost de-legitimizes making any kind of positive argument for Guilliman being any kind of good. Side by side, Guilliman looks almost like he's from a different company.
Elbows wrote: Can you fix CSM without applying similar rules to tactical marines? If you fix tactical marines you could risk invalidating Primaris, the new shiny toys. So oddly, the loser of this entire thing is the basic humble Chaos Space Marine. Unfortunate.
I'm sure GW could come up point drops that are explained by either CSM being generally more numerous or with buffs that are explained by CSM spending a 10'000 years in constant battle.
Even if time flows differently, it is strange that CSM aren't any better at what they are doing than loyalists; TLW rule not withstanding.
Elbows wrote: Basic Chaos Space Marines have unfortunately taken the brunt of the entire Primaris-change. Even as a casual player I do find it hard to justify normal Space Marines (though I take them anyway, they just evaporate in waves of cheap super-efficient models most of the time).
Loyalist marines...it's easy to understand. Primaris are 100% replacing them, and GW has been clever to make Primaris units better in every appreciable way thus far. Tactical marines received a further slap in the face when almost every other basic marine unit received a points drop (Veterans are what, one point more expensive?). So loyalist tactical marines are dead and gone, but they have a replacement. We knew no new models were coming out for loyalist marines. Sure the old classic kits will float around another 5-6 years or whatever.
However with Chaos Space Marines we're now getting a brand new kit (even if we only get the push-fit kit)...so that means CSM are basic infantry for another 10 years or more. Can you fix CSM without applying similar rules to tactical marines? If you fix tactical marines you could risk invalidating Primaris, the new shiny toys. So oddly, the loser of this entire thing is the basic humble Chaos Space Marine. Unfortunate.
The easy way to boost Chaos Space Marine effectiveness is to simply give them some sort of empowered by the dark gods ability that boosts their playability.
Elbows wrote: Basic Chaos Space Marines have unfortunately taken the brunt of the entire Primaris-change. Even as a casual player I do find it hard to justify normal Space Marines (though I take them anyway, they just evaporate in waves of cheap super-efficient models most of the time).
Loyalist marines...it's easy to understand. Primaris are 100% replacing them, and GW has been clever to make Primaris units better in every appreciable way thus far. Tactical marines received a further slap in the face when almost every other basic marine unit received a points drop (Veterans are what, one point more expensive?). So loyalist tactical marines are dead and gone, but they have a replacement. We knew no new models were coming out for loyalist marines. Sure the old classic kits will float around another 5-6 years or whatever.
However with Chaos Space Marines we're now getting a brand new kit (even if we only get the push-fit kit)...so that means CSM are basic infantry for another 10 years or more. Can you fix CSM without applying similar rules to tactical marines? If you fix tactical marines you could risk invalidating Primaris, the new shiny toys. So oddly, the loser of this entire thing is the basic humble Chaos Space Marine. Unfortunate.
One of the good points with CSM is that it is very flexible unit that you can build to many directions. But the issue is that there is other units that very likely do the said job better making them kinda pointless.
I REALLY want that GW does some real changes to justify taking CSM as they are while at the same time not in such away that makes other units not viable anymore.
the_scotsman wrote: Man, a theoretical chaos marine release where they get updated sculpts for their most beloved named character, a rebooted basic troop box, heavy weapon team box, terminator box, and biker box ON TOP OF a bunch of new stuff...
That'd be the dream release. I'd be blown away, tbh, I don't think I've ever seen GW nail "what the players actually want out of a model release" that perfectly well since I've been playing 40k.
If it actually did happen, of course.
And all of it hinges on if they fix the basic marine statline....which they almost certainly will not :(
You know, I don't think it does.
Statlines and game power fluctuates with the editions. A good model range can last you for 10-15 years. A real solid, flexible kit, with a good aesthetic, can set up a range for multiple editions to come.
If Chaos Marines got something as aesthetically solid as the 5th edition era ork stuff, that'd be jaw droppingly awesome.
I"m not saying they will, but there's enough being teased to have me excited about the possibilities for them.
Elbows wrote: Basic Chaos Space Marines have unfortunately taken the brunt of the entire Primaris-change. Even as a casual player I do find it hard to justify normal Space Marines (though I take them anyway, they just evaporate in waves of cheap super-efficient models most of the time).
Loyalist marines...it's easy to understand. Primaris are 100% replacing them, and GW has been clever to make Primaris units better in every appreciable way thus far. Tactical marines received a further slap in the face when almost every other basic marine unit received a points drop (Veterans are what, one point more expensive?). So loyalist tactical marines are dead and gone, but they have a replacement. We knew no new models were coming out for loyalist marines. Sure the old classic kits will float around another 5-6 years or whatever.
However with Chaos Space Marines we're now getting a brand new kit (even if we only get the push-fit kit)...so that means CSM are basic infantry for another 10 years or more. Can you fix CSM without applying similar rules to tactical marines? If you fix tactical marines you could risk invalidating Primaris, the new shiny toys. So oddly, the loser of this entire thing is the basic humble Chaos Space Marine. Unfortunate.
One of the good points with CSM is that it is very flexible unit that you can build to many directions. But the issue is that there is other units that very likely do the said job better making them kinda pointless.
I REALLY want that GW does some real changes to justify taking CSM as they are while at the same time not in such away that makes other units not viable anymore.
The game really favors units who do one thing exceptionally well over units who are jacks of all trades, masters of none. Tactical Squads and normal CSM guys are basically jacks of all trades. At least you can kit the CSM for melee and they are pretty ok at it, or give them two heavy/special weapons, which narrows their focus a little. The only way to make normal CSM better - aside from completely reworking the unit's purpose - is to lower their points cost. If you lower their points cost enough, they will find an equilibrium with Cultists.
Elbows wrote: Can you fix CSM without applying similar rules to tactical marines? If you fix tactical marines you could risk invalidating Primaris, the new shiny toys. So oddly, the loser of this entire thing is the basic humble Chaos Space Marine. Unfortunate.
I'm sure GW could come up point drops that are explained by either CSM being generally more numerous or with buffs that are explained by CSM spending a 10'000 years in constant battle.
Even if time flows differently, it is strange that CSM aren't any better at what they are doing than loyalists; TLW rule not withstanding.
Give them back meaningful Marks of Chaos that provide persistent stat boosts and/or rules. Outside of 1 or 2 stratagems/powers, Marks of Chaos at the moment may as well not exist
Elbows wrote: Basic Chaos Space Marines have unfortunately taken the brunt of the entire Primaris-change. Even as a casual player I do find it hard to justify normal Space Marines (though I take them anyway, they just evaporate in waves of cheap super-efficient models most of the time).
Loyalist marines...it's easy to understand. Primaris are 100% replacing them, and GW has been clever to make Primaris units better in every appreciable way thus far. Tactical marines received a further slap in the face when almost every other basic marine unit received a points drop (Veterans are what, one point more expensive?). So loyalist tactical marines are dead and gone, but they have a replacement. We knew no new models were coming out for loyalist marines. Sure the old classic kits will float around another 5-6 years or whatever.
However with Chaos Space Marines we're now getting a brand new kit (even if we only get the push-fit kit)...so that means CSM are basic infantry for another 10 years or more. Can you fix CSM without applying similar rules to tactical marines? If you fix tactical marines you could risk invalidating Primaris, the new shiny toys. So oddly, the loser of this entire thing is the basic humble Chaos Space Marine. Unfortunate.
One of the good points with CSM is that it is very flexible unit that you can build to many directions. But the issue is that there is other units that very likely do the said job better making them kinda pointless.
I REALLY want that GW does some real changes to justify taking CSM as they are while at the same time not in such away that makes other units not viable anymore.
The game really favors units who do one thing exceptionally well over units who are jacks of all trades, masters of none. Tactical Squads and normal CSM guys are basically jacks of all trades. At least you can kit the CSM for melee and they are pretty ok at it, or give them two heavy/special weapons, which narrows their focus a little. The only way to make normal CSM better - aside from completely reworking the unit's purpose - is to lower their points cost. If you lower their points cost enough, they will find an equilibrium with Cultists.
The point you search is 10 ppm, because troops serve as mainly cp Provider for csm armies.
And no gw wont drop them down to that, which i am also not in favour off.
Elbows wrote: Can you fix CSM without applying similar rules to tactical marines? If you fix tactical marines you could risk invalidating Primaris, the new shiny toys. So oddly, the loser of this entire thing is the basic humble Chaos Space Marine. Unfortunate.
I'm sure GW could come up point drops that are explained by either CSM being generally more numerous or with buffs that are explained by CSM spending a 10'000 years in constant battle.
Even if time flows differently, it is strange that CSM aren't any better at what they are doing than loyalists; TLW rule not withstanding.
Give them back meaningful Marks of Chaos that provide persistent stat boosts and/or rules. Outside of 1 or 2 stratagems/powers, Marks of Chaos at the moment may as well not exist
This would be the good Alternative.
But considering the streamlining i don't think will happen.
As a personal preference I always thought 40kCSM should be more elite than regular Space Marines. It bums me out that GW seems to be going the opposite direction, but like I said that's just my personal preference.
(I think I got that idea in my head when I first started in 3rd and was under the impression that most CSM were holdouts from the Horus Heresy and their corrupted geneseed was useless for making new Marines. I'm not sure if I was mistaken at the time or if the lore has changed over the last twenty years.)
One thing I have never understood about Chaos Space Marines is that here you have veterans of the crusades, of the seige of terra, who seem to be no better than basic loyalist marines in the 41st millennium.
Even the bottom link in the chain of traitors would still be "blessed" by the dark gods and gifted with even a small amount of power.
So, why not spitball on this:
CSM: Marines Benefits
Bring back Fearless, basic chaos marines should never take moral saves, at all. They stand and die, or stand and win.
Secondly, Basic Chaos Marines should be stronger, faster, heartier than their loyalist counterparts. To that end, add the following ability to the CSM Marine:
Gifts of the Dark Gods:
If your army is lead by a Chaos Lord, at the beginning of the battle, before deployment pick each friendly Chaos Marine unit in your army and pick one of the following:
Dark Empowerment: This Unit has +1 Strength.
Dark Fortitude: This Unit has +1 Toughness.
Dark Guidance: This Unit has +1 Ballistic Skill
Dark Fury: This Unit has +1 Weapon Skill
The unit has this buff for the duration of the battle.
Doing these two things would allow CSM players unparalleled customization for their Chaos Marine units. Now, we might need to test, perhaps this ability might need to be an X point add on for balance purposes, but I doubt it would.
Sotahullu wrote: One possible thing is making cultist excluded from CSM rules in general.
Apostole could still cheer them on but maybe make any Legion traits and marks only affect proper CSM troops.
Agreed. Cultists are not chaos space marines. They are not members of the Legions. Treating them as if they are messes things up really badly.
Cultists should exist, obviously. They should work a lot like GSC - in fact perhaps too much like them - making the two lists kind of dull. What they shouldn't do is make up 100% of all troops in CSM armies, while providing CPs and HQ slots to fill with daemon princes and special characters.
Sotahullu wrote: One possible thing is making cultist excluded from CSM rules in general.
Apostole could still cheer them on but maybe make any Legion traits and marks only affect proper CSM troops.
I agree with this, Cultists should basically come as they are, with maybe one inbuilt ability unique to them and any affect an Apostle adds. Otherwise, army traits shouldn't apply, they're not astartes.
Sotahullu wrote: One possible thing is making cultist excluded from CSM rules in general.
Apostole could still cheer them on but maybe make any Legion traits and marks only affect proper CSM troops.
Because a nerf ontop of a weak list is needed. Also you still have not solved the issue that players still won't field regular csm at their pricepoint.
Sotahullu wrote: One possible thing is making cultist excluded from CSM rules in general.
Apostole could still cheer them on but maybe make any Legion traits and marks only affect proper CSM troops.
Agreed. Cultists are not chaos space marines. They are not members of the Legions. Treating them as if they are messes things up really badly.
Cultists should exist, obviously. They should work a lot like GSC - in fact perhaps too much like them - making the two lists kind of dull. What they shouldn't do is make up 100% of all troops in CSM armies, while providing CPs and HQ slots to fill with daemon princes and special characters.
Togusa wrote: One thing I have never understood about Chaos Space Marines is that here you have veterans of the crusades, of the seige of terra, who seem to be no better than basic loyalist marines in the 41st millennium.
Even the bottom link in the chain of traitors would still be "blessed" by the dark gods and gifted with even a small amount of power.
So, why not spitball on this:
CSM: Marines Benefits
Bring back Fearless, basic chaos marines should never take moral saves, at all. They stand and die, or stand and win.
Secondly, Basic Chaos Marines should be stronger, faster, heartier than their loyalist counterparts. To that end, add the following ability to the CSM Marine:
Gifts of the Dark Gods:
If your army is lead by a Chaos Lord, at the beginning of the battle, before deployment pick each friendly Chaos Marine unit in your army and pick one of the following:
Dark Empowerment: This Unit has +1 Strength.
Dark Fortitude: This Unit has +1 Toughness.
Dark Guidance: This Unit has +1 Ballistic Skill
Dark Fury: This Unit has +1 Weapon Skill
The unit has this buff for the duration of the battle.
Doing these two things would allow CSM players unparalleled customization for their Chaos Marine units. Now, we might need to test, perhaps this ability might need to be an X point add on for balance purposes, but I doubt it would.
GW's counterpoint: there are newer CSM, and not just the Renegade Chapters either. Almost every legion at one time or another has received a major infusion of new space marines. That is what a basic CSM represent.
I agree with the sentiment the most typical CSM squad should be a veteran squad of sorts. You have CSM that have sold their souls to the ruinous powers, and have served and fought for them for 10,000 years... and yet they aren't even as capable as the loyalist marines that are lucky if they survive 100 years.
I don't think we need crazy rules for CSM squads to be worthwhile. With a few tweaks make them more like the Chosen.The veterans of 1000 battlefields with the flexibility that and picking up any weapon from the battlefield you want brings. It makes CSM a more elite army, as the legion forces should be.
If I was GW I would bring back marks of chaos and make them free upgrades. So CSM would get two sets of upgrades to buff them for free (MoC/LT). But I would require Troops to match warlord.
I would keep cultists out of both and daemon engines would only get the MoC.
I don't think we should hate on cultists, almost every 40k novel I've read there are cultists or cultist equivalents fighting alongside the CSM. If the goal is to make CSM the choice over Cultists, it should probably take the form of Stratagems that only effect Heretic Astartes.
Sotahullu wrote: One possible thing is making cultist excluded from CSM rules in general.
Apostole could still cheer them on but maybe make any Legion traits and marks only affect proper CSM troops.
I would be fine with that if Thousand Sons and Death Guard didn't have Cultist analogues that they continue to have the ability to use instead of Astartes. I don't think taking Cultists as Troops away from CSM is a good idea. I would rather they made regular CSM squads worth taking.
On the flip side, Space Marines don't really suffer from this problem. Yes, people will continue to take Scouts and only Scouts as their Troops, but I think we will be seeing more Intercessors and Infiltrators popping up instead. But, much like CSM, the alleged basic Troop, the Tactical Squad, is basically dead in the game, at least competitively. Unfortunately, CSM don't have Primaris analogues yet.
Honestly, since Cult Troops can be taken instead of regular CSM in the Cult armies, why can't the Undivided armies take Chosen as Troops? They could be built off the same kit as the upcoming CSM kit.
aka_mythos wrote: I don't think we should hate on cultists, almost every 40k novel I've read there are cultists or cultist equivalents fighting alongside the CSM. If the goal is to make CSM the choice over Cultists, it should probably take the form of Stratagems that only effect Heretic Astartes.
One issue, where do you get the required cp from?
If you don't pull a GSC and f.e lower cp cost for specific csm stratagems if you target csm, you will be forced even more into cultists to get cp.
Elbows wrote: Basic Chaos Space Marines have unfortunately taken the brunt of the entire Primaris-change. Even as a casual player I do find it hard to justify normal Space Marines (though I take them anyway, they just evaporate in waves of cheap super-efficient models most of the time).
Loyalist marines...it's easy to understand. Primaris are 100% replacing them, and GW has been clever to make Primaris units better in every appreciable way thus far. Tactical marines received a further slap in the face when almost every other basic marine unit received a points drop (Veterans are what, one point more expensive?). So loyalist tactical marines are dead and gone, but they have a replacement. We knew no new models were coming out for loyalist marines. Sure the old classic kits will float around another 5-6 years or whatever.
However with Chaos Space Marines we're now getting a brand new kit (even if we only get the push-fit kit)...so that means CSM are basic infantry for another 10 years or more. Can you fix CSM without applying similar rules to tactical marines? If you fix tactical marines you could risk invalidating Primaris, the new shiny toys. So oddly, the loser of this entire thing is the basic humble Chaos Space Marine. Unfortunate.
The easy way to boost Chaos Space Marine effectiveness is to simply give them some sort of empowered by the dark gods ability that boosts their playability.
Or we remove the basic Chaos Marine entry and replace it with Chosen like it should've been already. Everyone should have minimum of Vet stats.
The Melific psychic list strongly indicates new mutilators (keynword cult of destruction and refers to fleshmetal weapons) and talks about a warpsmith. Not sure if there is a model for that now, but I am willing to be there will be a new one. No way GW would have new spells emphasizing old models.
Sotahullu wrote: One possible thing is making cultist excluded from CSM rules in general.
Apostole could still cheer them on but maybe make any Legion traits and marks only affect proper CSM troops.
I would be fine with that if Thousand Sons and Death Guard didn't have Cultist analogues that they continue to have the ability to use instead of Astartes. I don't think taking Cultists as Troops away from CSM is a good idea. I would rather they made regular CSM squads worth taking.
On the flip side, Space Marines don't really suffer from this problem. Yes, people will continue to take Scouts and only Scouts as their Troops, but I think we will be seeing more Intercessors and Infiltrators popping up instead. But, much like CSM, the alleged basic Troop, the Tactical Squad, is basically dead in the game, at least competitively. Unfortunately, CSM don't have Primaris analogues yet.
Honestly, since Cult Troops can be taken instead of regular CSM in the Cult armies, why can't the Undivided armies take Chosen as Troops? They could be built off the same kit as the upcoming CSM kit.
And Cult Marines should have Vet stats minimum too. Plague Marines being in combat forever and then being scared is silly.
Kendo wrote: The Melific psychic list strongly indicates new mutilators (keynword cult of destruction and refers to fleshmetal weapons) and talks about a warpsmith. Not sure if there is a model for that now, but I am willing to be there will be a new one. No way GW would have new spells emphasizing old models.
There are OLD OLD OLD models for each. I almost expect the official parts-built Obliterator to be able to be built as a Mutilator. Probably one per box (ouch!). Warpsmith has a finecast model, but they are a likely candidate for a new model. I am actually hoping for a new Chaos Lord miniature, to be honest.
Sotahullu wrote: One possible thing is making cultist excluded from CSM rules in general.
Apostole could still cheer them on but maybe make any Legion traits and marks only affect proper CSM troops.
I would be fine with that if Thousand Sons and Death Guard didn't have Cultist analogues that they continue to have the ability to use instead of Astartes. I don't think taking Cultists as Troops away from CSM is a good idea. I would rather they made regular CSM squads worth taking.
On the flip side, Space Marines don't really suffer from this problem. Yes, people will continue to take Scouts and only Scouts as their Troops, but I think we will be seeing more Intercessors and Infiltrators popping up instead. But, much like CSM, the alleged basic Troop, the Tactical Squad, is basically dead in the game, at least competitively. Unfortunately, CSM don't have Primaris analogues yet.
Honestly, since Cult Troops can be taken instead of regular CSM in the Cult armies, why can't the Undivided armies take Chosen as Troops? They could be built off the same kit as the upcoming CSM kit.
And Cult Marines should have Vet stats minimum too. Plague Marines being in combat forever and then being scared is silly.
No argument there. I think you would see more Rubrics that way, though the Beta Bolter Discipline rule likely will help with that if it becomes a full-fledged rule.
Togusa wrote: One thing I have never understood about Chaos Space Marines is that here you have veterans of the crusades, of the seige of terra, who seem to be no better than basic loyalist marines in the 41st millennium.
The 3.5 'Dex did this with Veteran Skills. It was great.
That's what makes Chosen seem like a good option for Troops in the Chaos Undivided armies. They are the CSM that are the equivalent to the Tactical Marines in terms of experience. The bog-standard CSM Squad? That's your Scout alternatives. Sort of like how Space Wolves have two PA squads, the Blood Claws (who are the equivalent to the CSM Squad) and the Grey Hunters (who are the equivalent to Chosen).
Togusa wrote: One thing I have never understood about Chaos Space Marines is that here you have veterans of the crusades, of the seige of terra, who seem to be no better than basic loyalist marines in the 41st millennium.
Even the bottom link in the chain of traitors would still be "blessed" by the dark gods and gifted with even a small amount of power.
So, why not spitball on this:
CSM: Marines Benefits
Bring back Fearless, basic chaos marines should never take moral saves, at all. They stand and die, or stand and win.
Secondly, Basic Chaos Marines should be stronger, faster, heartier than their loyalist counterparts. To that end, add the following ability to the CSM Marine:
Gifts of the Dark Gods:
If your army is lead by a Chaos Lord, at the beginning of the battle, before deployment pick each friendly Chaos Marine unit in your army and pick one of the following:
Dark Empowerment: This Unit has +1 Strength.
Dark Fortitude: This Unit has +1 Toughness.
Dark Guidance: This Unit has +1 Ballistic Skill
Dark Fury: This Unit has +1 Weapon Skill
The unit has this buff for the duration of the battle.
Doing these two things would allow CSM players unparalleled customization for their Chaos Marine units. Now, we might need to test, perhaps this ability might need to be an X point add on for balance purposes, but I doubt it would.
GW's counterpoint: there are newer CSM, and not just the Renegade Chapters either. Almost every legion at one time or another has received a major infusion of new space marines. That is what a basic CSM represent.
I agree with the sentiment the most typical CSM squad should be a veteran squad of sorts. You have CSM that have sold their souls to the ruinous powers, and have served and fought for them for 10,000 years... and yet they aren't even as capable as the loyalist marines that are lucky if they survive 100 years.
I don't think we need crazy rules for CSM squads to be worthwhile. With a few tweaks make them more like the Chosen.The veterans of 1000 battlefields with the flexibility that and picking up any weapon from the battlefield you want brings. It makes CSM a more elite army, as the legion forces should be.
Do you like the table idea though for buffs? I really feel like the balance is good there, it lets you choose how you want each squad to function at the start of each game.
Still no leaks on the points for the new units? We got two Warlord Traits in the Chaos article today. I am surprised there haven't been full leaks of those yet either.
MajorTom11 wrote: Y'know, that Abaddon sculpt is so good it almost de-legitimizes making any kind of positive argument for Guilliman being any kind of good. Side by side, Guilliman looks almost like he's from a different company.
About the only excuse i can up with is that Gman was a product of 7th edition era GW which tended to suck at everything from rules to fluff to occasionally even models.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Still no leaks on the points for the new units? We got two Warlord Traits in the Chaos article today. I am surprised there haven't been full leaks of those yet either.
Also, to be fair to the Sculptor, you cannot really beat the 30k Guilliman model. It is perfect for the character.
aka_mythos wrote: I don't think we should hate on cultists, almost every 40k novel I've read there are cultists or cultist equivalents fighting alongside the CSM. If the goal is to make CSM the choice over Cultists, it should probably take the form of Stratagems that only effect Heretic Astartes.
This is literally the same issue that existed with Conscripts. They made the absolute worst choice by simply bumping up points and nerfing Commissars into uselessness.
The answer is, and always will be, making it so that they do not benefit from army strats, rules, etc unless a specific character or trait calls them out as benefiting.
warboss wrote: About the only excuse i can up with is that Gman was a product of 7th edition era GW which tended to suck at everything from rules to fluff to occasionally even models.
GW was bad at miniatures during 7th?
That... doesn't make sense.
Kanluwen wrote: This is literally the same issue that existed with Conscripts. They made the absolute worst choice by simply bumping up points and nerfing Commissars into uselessness.
No Kan! We must swing the pendulum as hard as possible. Units should only exist in two possible states: Always take or never take! No middle ground! It's the GW way!
Tinfoil hat on, we may not see a new codex for Marines or Chaos. Instead their rules could just be in their mini codexes/ in the new campaign book. And they could be somewhat placeholder for preparation of a 9th edition where they will then get new codexes. Could be that they're waiting to overhaul a few rules in the system before fixing marines as a whole.
Tinfoil hat off, they probably just have no idea how to fix the basic marine in 8th editions and all it's dmg and high strength and alpha strike. They want to keep it at a basic, simple midline statline and that's not really good in 8th. I hope they at least reduce the points.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Still no leaks on the points for the new units? We got two Warlord Traits in the Chaos article today. I am surprised there haven't been full leaks of those yet either.
Also, to be fair to the Sculptor, you cannot really beat the 30k Guilliman model. It is perfect for the character.
All the 30k Primarchs are fantastic. Outside Perty on too big a terrain piece of course.
I also just hate Fulgrim but I hate the Emperor's Children in general so that's maybe a bias getting in the way.
If Vigilus Ablaze is the only way to get the new rules for Vanguard Space Marines and Daemonkin Chaos Space Marines outside the boxed set, I would be fine with that. Hopefully they put a little more care into the rules so things like the Lieutenant only having a plain CCW instead of a Combat Knife are taken care of. Also, hopefully the full datasheets are in there, not just the ones that cover the models in the boxed set (so it would have the alternate weapon options and full squad sizes). But I suspect we will be getting add-on books for the Vanguard Space Marines and Daemonkin (possibly a Chaos Undivided add-on) at a later date that has the full datasheets. It will probably kick off a whole slew of codex add-ons to extend the life of the edition the way we got add-ons in 7e.
We will already be able to pre order shadowspear in a few days, but what about vigilus and Abaddon ? We already have knowledge on Abby but is it okay to believe that some time will happen between shadowspear and vigilus 2 release ?
MajorTom11 wrote: Y'know, that Abaddon sculpt is so good it almost de-legitimizes making any kind of positive argument for Guilliman being any kind of good. Side by side, Guilliman looks almost like he's from a different company.
About the only excuse i can up with is that Gman was a product of 7th edition era GW which tended to suck at everything from rules to fluff to occasionally even models.
I think Guilliman is a greay model... If your intention was to give peiole a base to convert the Emperor from...
MajorTom11 wrote: Y'know, that Abaddon sculpt is so good it almost de-legitimizes making any kind of positive argument for Guilliman being any kind of good. Side by side, Guilliman looks almost like he's from a different company.
About the only excuse i can up with is that Gman was a product of 7th edition era GW which tended to suck at everything from rules to fluff to occasionally even models.
I think Guilliman is a greay model... If your intention was to give peiole a base to convert the Emperor from...
I disagree subjectively with that (i.e not saying I'm right and you're wrong, just my opinion). For me, the proportions and design of the Guilliman 40k model are just brutally off. Waist wasp thin, unusually extended limbs, esp in comparison to 40k design in general, miniscule head. Armor detail and filigree not bad but soft and again oddly put together. For me the more they do since their design renaissance the more out of place that model sits in a near singular fashion. I mean, all the models crept a bit more towards art scale, a bit, and then there is that 40k bulk that the artwork conveyed for PA that wasn't there in the heroic scale era that has been coming in to the new era. There are still small heads, there are still bad proportions, tiny thighs. The thing about Guilliman is he is one of the worst examples of being 'off' in several of the areas for me.
Again, YYMV, but Abbadon, I think many would agree, despite being 'not accurate' in some ways as a whole comes off as a much more 'together' and 'sits right' sculpt. It looks like the artwork, it looks a lot like most hoped it would. Guilliman, I don't think anyone thought he would look like that, in almost any detail. You get where I'm coming from?
easiest fix for cultists would be to make then minium squad size of 20, that means they're individually cheap sure but you're unable to put them in transports (we have NEVER in the fluff seen them ride rhinos etc)
Sotahullu wrote: One possible thing is making cultist excluded from CSM rules in general.
Apostole could still cheer them on but maybe make any Legion traits and marks only affect proper CSM troops.
Just like how grots dont benefit from ork klan kultures. Maybe they could do the same for IG conscripts as well, and restore commissars to usefulness at the same time.
The problem isn't that cultists are too good (although I'd happily see them lose traits in return for going back to 4pts.) The problem is just that the regular Marine statline is bad. The primaris statline is better, but still over costed.
The proper balance is that SM should have slightly better special weapons and primaris, whereas chaos should have buffs from marks like they had in 3.5 codex. But in both cases, the MeQ statline and bolters need to be improved.
casvalremdeikun wrote: That's what makes Chosen seem like a good option for Troops in the Chaos Undivided armies. They are the CSM that are the equivalent to the Tactical Marines in terms of experience. The bog-standard CSM Squad? That's your Scout alternatives. Sort of like how Space Wolves have two PA squads, the Blood Claws (who are the equivalent to the CSM Squad) and the Grey Hunters (who are the equivalent to Chosen).
Remember how 5th edition allowed you to swap elite units into troop slots in armies in which it made sense? Led by people who would realistically have such elite entourage?
Ah, way back when GW actually had a writer capable of making an entire series of balanced, interesting books with multiple builds, good times
casvalremdeikun wrote: Still no leaks on the points for the new units? We got two Warlord Traits in the Chaos article today. I am surprised there haven't been full leaks of those yet either.
Also, to be fair to the Sculptor, you cannot really beat the 30k Guilliman model. It is perfect for the character.
Yes, if you ignore slight changes between 30K and 40K, with Robby's armour being perhaps the best conceptual mirror of the change GW had ever made
The thing about elites as troops thing is that you already can basically do if as far as GW can tell. You can take a vanguard detachment. But players want to maximize CPs and want a good troop choice that does it.
You could probably buy the new CSM and just make them chosen and run a vanguard with them while running a battalion of cultists.
So while I thought about just making the standard CSM a chosen...I realize at this point I basically already can.
@Irbis:
One thing is for sure is that in the 41 millennium, Guilliman decided not to skip every leg day.
H.B.M.C. wrote: That's the problem with the FoC having no meaning in 8th (other than how many CPs it generates).
There's no impetus to make units that don't work better if you can just take an FoC that emphasises the units that do.
I don't know how we could fix it, or where we could fix it. The current system is nice but CP generation is just killing everything.
Removing CP from Detachments would be a start.
You could peg it to points and every army would have the same amount but that probably wouldn't balance things either. I think GW made some assumptions that armies like AM would get less mileage out of their CP but would get more. Then never really asked "what if they take the cheap AM and use those CPs for elite armies?".
You can't fix CPs by giving everyone the same amount, because not everyone's stratagems are equal. (It would be a big improvement over the current situation though!)
The only way to have CPs be properly balanced by army is for the amount to vary by army, or unit choice within an army. So in other words, army specific detachments, or CPs based on taking certain combinations of units. (For example, every tac squad you take gives +1 CP. But for guard to get +1 CP, they need to take 3 infantry squads.)
I wouldn't be opposed to them moving to something more along the lines of the AoS chart and allies system and ditching the idea of Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support and the Detachment system (with them going back to certain conditions moving units to Troops/Battle Line).
Was part of the problem in the past with units becoming Troops that it gave some armies Troops that were leaps and bounds better than others? (I'm thinking bikes with their 4++ in 7th.) Some armies will always have Troops that are better than some other armies, but I can see situations where that's not a very big deal and others where it makes for a bad game.
I like having different unit types (HQ/Elite/Troops/FA/HS/Flyer/Fortification/Super-Heavy) because with an actual FOC that means something, rather than the current system where you can essentially ignore it and take whatever you want with some minor taxes, it forces you to make choices about what you take.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: I wouldn't be opposed to them moving to something more along the lines of the AoS chart and allies system and ditching the idea of Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support and the Detachment system (with them going back to certain conditions moving units to Troops/Battle Line).
Was part of the problem in the past with units becoming Troops that it gave some armies Troops that were leaps and bounds better than others? (I'm thinking bikes with their 4++ in 7th.) Some armies will always have Troops that are better than some other armies, but I can see situations where that's not a very big deal and others where it makes for a bad game.
In 5th there was a lot of cases of Elites/Fast becoming troops. I don't remember it ever being something people complained about. Nob Bikerz and Paladins got complained about, but that was because of wound allocation, not because they could be made troops. It was a good mechanic and they ought to bring it back (or reform the CP system so that it doesn't need to.)
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: I wouldn't be opposed to them moving to something more along the lines of the AoS chart and allies system and ditching the idea of Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support and the Detachment system (with them going back to certain conditions moving units to Troops/Battle Line).
Was part of the problem in the past with units becoming Troops that it gave some armies Troops that were leaps and bounds better than others? (I'm thinking bikes with their 4++ in 7th.) Some armies will always have Troops that are better than some other armies, but I can see situations where that's not a very big deal and others where it makes for a bad game.
In 5th there was a lot of cases of Elites/Fast becoming troops. I don't remember it ever being something people complained about. Nob Bikerz and Paladins got complained about, but that was because of wound allocation, not because they could be made troops. It was a good mechanic and they ought to bring it back (or reform the CP system so that it doesn't need to.)
I agree with that sentiment.
For example you could take an entire army of bikes. Why? Cause you could.
Do you want sternguard as scoring units? go ahead just pick up a kantor!
Look at all this random rambling that isn't related to the Shadowspear release or Abbadon. Why is it always like this? It's as if the people on Dakka Dakka have a medical condition that will kill them if they stay on topic for anything :/
Virules wrote: Look at all this random rambling that isn't related to the Shadowspear release or Abbadon. Why is it always like this? It's as if the people on Dakka Dakka have a medical condition that will kill them if they stay on topic for anything :/
Lol yeah. But seriously, it's because given sufficient length, any discussion is going to converge back to the same few issues, because those are, well, the issues! All of this stuff is downstream of rules systems, so everything will always come back to that.
That's the issue with these rumour threads though, there is only so much you can say about new models. "They are nice", "They are bad". Okay, done. Now what do we talk about?
To be fair I don't think it's too bad that people talk about CSM balance, since that could very much be related to Vigilus and the new rules in there.
Virules wrote: Look at all this random rambling that isn't related to the Shadowspear release or Abbadon. Why is it always like this? It's as if the people on Dakka Dakka have a medical condition that will kill them if they stay on topic for anything :/
Conversations develop as they go on. And who died and made you mod?
You want to talk about Shadow Spear some more? Ok then:
Having a psychic power discipline that limits casting to specific versions of Power Armour is stupid.
Virules wrote: Look at all this random rambling that isn't related to the Shadowspear release or Abbadon. Why is it always like this? It's as if the people on Dakka Dakka have a medical condition that will kill them if they stay on topic for anything :/
Conversations develop as they do on. And who died and made you mod?
You want to talk about Shadow Spear some more? Ok then:
Having a psychic power discipline that limits casting to specific versions of Power Armour is stupid.
Discuss.
I agree. Especially since there are several units that it would make sense to work on that it can't (Reivers, for example). I get that it is supposed to represent lighter armored Marines, but seriously, that limitation is dumb.
Also, looking at the Marines here, I don't see a good reason why the only Phobos units that can benefit from the Liberator Strike Force are the characters.
I don't get the course of this conversation... People ask for better CSM so they have reasons to play them and two posts later they are asking for a mechanic from 5th edition where you could use elite/FA units as troops to return
I like the actual sistem where troops are valuable and you feel compelled to use them. Maybe limit who can use the CP if you want (CP genererated by a codex can only be used by units of that codex or something similar) because that is the issue, and not all the CP sistem wich I like.
To me, the whole point of the CP boost to Battalions & Brigades was to encourage people to bring fluffy, troop based armies; previous editions tended to end up with two min sized squads of the cheapest option, shoved in a corner, to fulfil the FOC tax and then let them take whatever meta death star was flavour of the month.
Problem is, as is widely known, people just use soup to take min sized detachments of the cheapest option, shoved in a corner, to fulfil the CP tax and then let them take whatever meta death star is flavour of the month.
The only real option is to stop cross detachment sharing of CP. Or find a way to stop people being WAAC dicks
I know you put a smiley faces are the WAAC comment, but I don't think it's entirely the competitive mindset.
I hate the idea of an "Imperial" army that is Knights, the Loyal 32, and for some inexplicable reason 3 Custodes HQs running around smashing things, or two Blood Angel Captains with some minimal Scouts. I understand that the fluff and the rules often run contrary to one another (a major failing of 40K that has been around since its inception yet they seem oblivious too or just simply unwilling to try and fix), but as someone who has existed in both the competitive and fluff-bunny worlds, such armies just annoy me because the rules allow it to exist in the first place. They just don't make sense conceptually.
As for Shadow Spear, I think that we'll get a new Marine Codex (or Primaris Codex, or just a Vanguard Codex eventually) that includes Reivers and the like, gives them a Phobos Keyword, and lets the power affect them. It's still stupid, but at least it won't be quite as weirdly arbitrary.
zinch wrote: I don't get the course of this conversation... People ask for better CSM so they have reasons to play them and two posts later they are asking for a mechanic from 5th edition where you could use elite/FA units as troops to return
It's almost as if people are brainstorming lots of different solutions to the same problem in collaborative effort.
Jadenim wrote: To me, the whole point of the CP boost to Battalions & Brigades was to encourage people to bring fluffy, troop based armies; previous editions tended to end up with two min sized squads of the cheapest option, shoved in a corner, to fulfil the FOC tax and then let them take whatever meta death star was flavour of the month.
Problem is, as is widely known, people just use soup to take min sized detachments of the cheapest option, shoved in a corner, to fulfil the CP tax and then let them take whatever meta death star is flavour of the month.
The only real option is to stop cross detachment sharing of CP. Or find a way to stop people being WAAC dicks
Or just make Troops great again?
Remember the time were the common Space Wolves list took as many Troop choices as possible because they were the backbone of the army and worth taking?
GW wants Troops to be the bad tax people have to take to access the good stuff.
But those armies don't look like armies so they just tried to increase the minimum amount of units people need to take (and wrote the rules in a way that the minimum core tax doesn't look like a core tax is mandatory so people don't feel being forced to take it)
The whole problem would be solved if Troop choices were a real option to take and no additional rule would be needed to force people into them
People will always take the best units available as long as list building effects the outcome of the game, the same as TCG people will use the best cards available to build a deck.
Another solution would be to go back to smaller armies in general
Yes, reducing point will just make other options better and shift the meta in a different direction, but using an army size were choices don't matter as you can take one of everything make the problem just worse.
Using the cheap Brigade/Bataillone to get as much CP as possible to boost other stuff only works if there are enough points left to take something else.
Also points per model are way to low to really distinguish between options which is a known problem at the low end
As for Shadow Spear, I think that we'll get a new Marine Codex (or Primaris Codex, or just a Vanguard Codex eventually) that includes Reivers and the like, gives them a Phobos Keyword, and lets the power affect them. It's still stupid, but at least it won't be quite as weirdly arbitrary.
Well, I could seen them doing a full Vanguard release accompanied by an add-on book. Probably with some form of a vehicle. And then next year, we get a Gravis add-on book. I don't really see them doing an all new codex yet. Not when they can nickel and dime us on add-on codexes and THEN release an all new, full-blown codex.
There have been rumblings of his pre-order (alongside vigilus 2) going up on the 16th of this month. This is from a few FLGs in different parts of the world if I remember correctly so it seems pretty likely.
It would also mean that we should get a preview of that release this Sunday
PiñaColada wrote: There have been rumblings of his pre-order (alongside vigilus 2) going up on the 16th of this month. This is from a few FLGs in different parts of the world if I remember correctly so it seems pretty likely.
It would also mean that we should get a preview of that release this Sunday
Thank you! I'd have much preferred a surprise pre-order this weekend but i'll take a March release (as I can only guess Vigilus will then be April's WD).
It is a little on topic when it looks (still power armored models to come) for chaos like GW are committed to basic power armored CSM being rubbish and no new morsels of info have come out in a day or so to suggest otherwise. Its natural for people to have ideas. If ye after rumours/leaks consult the first post, which hasn't been updated in over a week XD.
The psypower for one make of power armour does seem odd, lazy almost. Like they'v got them selves in this kinda short release make new rules bubble.which will burst and become unmanageable like factions did in 7th.
maybe its all leading to 'end times 40k' can you imagine.
Tiberius501 wrote: How long has the box of cultists that included the Chaos marine been off the site? I can't find it anywhere and can only see the box of 5.
I remember a rumour about the price hike of cultists being more tied to an upcoming release than trying to achieve some sort of balance with other factions' cheap troops.
Don't know if that was pure speculation because of the weird gap created between cultists and guardsmen post CA or if CSM will get some sort of new cultist datasheet (and presumably models)
Tiberius501 wrote: How long has the box of cultists that included the Chaos marine been off the site? I can't find it anywhere and can only see the box of 5.
It went about 12 months ago in the UK.
That's a shame. :/ I need me some cultists. I guess it's a good excuse to get the more expensive kit of the Cawdor gang to use instead.
Any chance though that they're getting repackaged with the new Chaos line? Maybe without the Chaos marine.
Tiberius501 wrote: How long has the box of cultists that included the Chaos marine been off the site? I can't find it anywhere and can only see the box of 5.
It went about 12 months ago in the UK.
That's a shame. :/ I need me some cultists. I guess it's a good excuse to get the more expensive kit of the Cawdor gang to use instead.
Any chance though that they're getting repackaged with the new Chaos line? Maybe without the Chaos marine.
Possiably, one can hope although I suspect not. I kinda suspect we'll see cultists removed and rolled into a lost and damned codex
alleus wrote: That's the issue with these rumour threads though, there is only so much you can say about new models. "They are nice", "They are bad". Okay, done. Now what do we talk about?
To be fair I don't think it's too bad that people talk about CSM balance, since that could very much be related to Vigilus and the new rules in there.
I do not think we really know about CSM balance until we see the new CSM codex which appears to be coming.
Tiberius501 wrote: How long has the box of cultists that included the Chaos marine been off the site? I can't find it anywhere and can only see the box of 5.
It went about 12 months ago in the UK.
That's a shame. :/ I need me some cultists. I guess it's a good excuse to get the more expensive kit of the Cawdor gang to use instead.
Any chance though that they're getting repackaged with the new Chaos line? Maybe without the Chaos marine.
Look for alternatives, kitbash some gsc neophytes f.e. IG et all.
alleus wrote: That's the issue with these rumour threads though, there is only so much you can say about new models. "They are nice", "They are bad". Okay, done. Now what do we talk about?
To be fair I don't think it's too bad that people talk about CSM balance, since that could very much be related to Vigilus and the new rules in there.
I do not think we really know about CSM balance until we see the new CSM codex which appears to be coming.
Any solid rumors flying around that we'll actually get a new codex?
Seems strange timing if you ask me. While there are new models that need new or updated data sheets, it seems certain with Slaanesh coming this year that Emperor's Children get a book of their own, and it would make sense to then give World Eaters one as well so that all the cult legions got kicked out of the codex. It would makes to only then give us a new codex so as not to have those two legions included in the generic codex, or their status in question until they get their own books.
Virules wrote: Look at all this random rambling that isn't related to the Shadowspear release or Abbadon. Why is it always like this? It's as if the people on Dakka Dakka have a medical condition that will kill them if they stay on topic for anything :/
Here’s the priority list for most 40k topics
1. Bitching about everything related to 40k 2. Fighting with other users over petty gak
2 1/2. Having to be “right” in every discussion, even over the most pedantic of things
3. Turning every topic into competitive tactics topics, then loopback to number 1 if something isn’t going to be viable (90% of the time)
....
..???. Actual topic
Anyways, I want to see Vanguard integrated into Killteam. I’d suck up my distaste for Primaris armor if the Space Marines can use Infiltrators instead of the ancient scout models.
Any solid rumors flying around that we'll actually get a new codex?
Seems strange timing if you ask me. While there are new models that need new or updated data sheets, it seems certain with Slaanesh coming this year that Emperor's Children get a book of their own, and it would make sense to then give World Eaters one as well so that all the cult legions got kicked out of the codex. It would makes to only then give us a new codex so as not to have those two legions included in the generic codex, or their status in question until they get their own books.
Ah, right. I posted the exact wording over on B&C rather than here but the gist is that the CSM box and codex are both looking to be replaced.
"Codex: Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Space Marine Squad are now removed from the B200b range and are no longer subject to compulsory re-order"
Any solid rumors flying around that we'll actually get a new codex?
Seems strange timing if you ask me. While there are new models that need new or updated data sheets, it seems certain with Slaanesh coming this year that Emperor's Children get a book of their own, and it would make sense to then give World Eaters one as well so that all the cult legions got kicked out of the codex. It would makes to only then give us a new codex so as not to have those two legions included in the generic codex, or their status in question until they get their own books.
Ah, right. I posted the exact wording over on B&C rather than here but the gist is that the CSM box and codex are both looking to be replaced.
"Codex: Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Space Marine Squad are now removed from the B200b range and are no longer subject to compulsory re-order"
Any solid rumors flying around that we'll actually get a new codex?
Seems strange timing if you ask me. While there are new models that need new or updated data sheets, it seems certain with Slaanesh coming this year that Emperor's Children get a book of their own, and it would make sense to then give World Eaters one as well so that all the cult legions got kicked out of the codex. It would makes to only then give us a new codex so as not to have those two legions included in the generic codex, or their status in question until they get their own books.
Ah, right. I posted the exact wording over on B&C rather than here but the gist is that the CSM box and codex are both looking to be replaced.
"Codex: Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Space Marine Squad are now removed from the B200b range and are no longer subject to compulsory re-order"
H.B.M.C. wrote: I know you put a smiley faces are the WAAC comment, but I don't think it's entirely the competitive mindset.
I hate the idea of an "Imperial" army that is Knights, the Loyal 32, and for some inexplicable reason 3 Custodes HQs running around smashing things, or two Blood Angel Captains with some minimal Scouts. I understand that the fluff and the rules often run contrary to one another (a major failing of 40K that has been around since its inception yet they seem oblivious too or just simply unwilling to try and fix), but as someone who has existed in both the competitive and fluff-bunny worlds, such armies just annoy me because the rules allow it to exist in the first place. They just don't make sense conceptually.
There's something quite amusing about two Blood Angel captains discussing options for dealing with a Chaos/Xenos incursion.
"Death company, Tacticals, Sanguinary Guard, perhaps the Primaris legions, or our 100 battle relic Landraiders and Vindicators brother?"
'Hah, you jest brother Smashfaciel, I think this is another job for Guardsman Chaff and his 31 recruits and of course, the Knights McStompyface."
"Of course, I'll send a note to Terra asking to downsize the chapter immediately; we can split the savings and buy even bigger hammers!"
"Excellent, but shall you or I lead?"
"Hah, another witty barb brother; I think this battle requires the delicate touch of Sgt. Chaff..."
casvalremdeikun wrote: Both of those are pretty good. Target Priority on a Captain babysitting some Eliminators equals hits on 2s and MW on 6s. Not bad. Not bad at all.
I don't see any restriction on what he can buff with that, so you could have him babysitting a unit of hellblasters surely?
I'm not sure if redeploying 3 units is worth a warlord trait. It's an awesome ability but I just don't think it's worth giving up a warlord trait.
The +1 to hit one though. That's juicy. If it can be used by some DA (hopefully with the <chapter> key word) that will really help my jerks blowing up all over the place...
aka_mythos wrote: I don't think we should hate on cultists, almost every 40k novel I've read there are cultists or cultist equivalents fighting alongside the CSM. If the goal is to make CSM the choice over Cultists, it should probably take the form of Stratagems that only effect Heretic Astartes.
One issue, where do you get the required cp from?
If you don't pull a GSC and f.e lower cp cost for specific csm stratagems if you target csm, you will be forced even more into cultists to get cp.
This is part of why I think the problem with CSM, is a lack of a cohesive vision for the army. Other armies have these thematic cores that elevate and drive the play style of the army. CSM and Loyalist marines are more like big swiss army knives where GW has largely left the direction of the army to the player. -So instead of having a bunch of rules synnergizing towards a particular play style for the army, it just means I get to choose which flavor of the army will struggle against those that do.
Its not about stopping people from taking cultists, its about giving people more of a reason to take CSM and making them at least as viable as building an army around cultists. Just as easy as stratagems, how about rules that let them use cultists as "human shields"; something like the rules for targeting characters. That would help boost survivability; it would just need to be specific to particular CSM units.
bananathug wrote: I'm not sure if redeploying 3 units is worth a warlord trait. It's an awesome ability but I just don't think it's worth giving up a warlord trait.
The +1 to hit one though. That's juicy. If it can be used by some DA (hopefully with the <chapter> key word) that will really help my jerks blowing up all over the place...
How is helping one unit a turn better than frickin redeployment, especially with these armies with crazy mobility?
casvalremdeikun wrote: Both of those are pretty good. Target Priority on a Captain babysitting some Eliminators equals hits on 2s and MW on 6s. Not bad. Not bad at all.
I don't see any restriction on what he can buff with that, so you could have him babysitting a unit of hellblasters surely?
Yeah it's any <chapter> unit so you can pick whatever you like.
Personally i'm looking at my 40 shot Intercessor unit hitting on 2's, re-rolling 1's as a tasty starting point.
Alternatively it could go on a Contemptor Dread and hit those -2 Aeldari flyers on 3's.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Both of those are pretty good. Target Priority on a Captain babysitting some Eliminators equals hits on 2s and MW on 6s. Not bad. Not bad at all.
I don't see any restriction on what he can buff with that, so you could have him babysitting a unit of hellblasters surely?
Damn, that Target Priority trait is probably reason enough to take the Phobos Captain.
It's a crime that the Vanguard Librarian's best powers are limited to Phobos units. Shrouding combined with Target Priority would be amazing on a full squad of Hellblasters.
I'm wondering if that's why they used the Phobos keyword for Obfuscation, or whatever the discipline is called.
Prevents a sort of internal soup, where rather than a themed look to the force, it's just a hodge podge of armour types and weapons that gel sickeningly well together? Helps to restrain Codex creep.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I'm wondering if that's why they used the Phobos keyword for Obfuscation, or whatever the discipline is called.
Prevents a sort of internal soup, where rather than a themed look to the force, it's just a hodge podge of armour types and weapons that gel sickeningly well together? Helps to restrain Codex creep.
Probably, just weird they'd restrict internal soup more than external. Surely an army of hodgepodge marine armour types is better than marines, guard and knights?
The Vanguard article's cover image shows a good side-view of a Suppressor. No additional jump pack/turbine hiding there, just as people assumed. Those are really weird models.
Binabik15 wrote: The Vanguard article's cover image shows a good side-view of a Suppressor. No additional jump pack/turbine hiding there, just as people assumed. Those are really weird models.
I'm guessing the 'jump pack' are the extra thruster pods on top of the backpack and on the back of the boots.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Did the guy just get Prescience as a warlord trait for free every turn?
They did. Now the question is: who can have it? I can't see an obvious keyword on the shadowspear characters that would let them take these traits. Phobos, maybe?
It certainly looks as if you can have a captain give a repulsor +1 to hit. Actually that might not be the best option, as they tend to split their fire all over the place. You can also use it to make hellblasters immune to overheating.
Far from being good on a captain, I think that trait actually means you don't need a captain. Stick it on a lieutenant instead. The trait alone means plasma can't overheat.
I think this might be good with my crimson fists. I could get suppressors seriously accurate if I combined this and the stratagem for +1 to hit vs characters. Might even hit some eldar!
casvalremdeikun wrote: Or put Target Priority on the Librarian that won't be shooting anyway...
Yup, I was thinking 10 man Infiltrator squad with Target Priority Librarian to trigger more 6s while also empowering them with to hit rerolls. Pity mini-apothecary can't heal characters, tho.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Or put Target Priority on the Librarian that won't be shooting anyway...
Yup, I was thinking 10 man Infiltrator squad with Target Priority Librarian to trigger more 6s while also empowering them with to hit rerolls. Pity mini-apothecary can't heal characters, tho.
That doesn't work. The ability only triggers on unmodified rolls of 6.
Bolter drill, on the other hand, happens on a 6+. Imagine some crimson fist intercessors firing 40 shots at a unit of 20+. They'd have 2 hits on a 4+ to hit. This is a great warlord trait for my army.
bananathug wrote: I'm not sure if redeploying 3 units is worth a warlord trait. It's an awesome ability but I just don't think it's worth giving up a warlord trait.
The +1 to hit one though. That's juicy. If it can be used by some DA (hopefully with the <chapter> key word) that will really help my jerks blowing up all over the place...
How is helping one unit a turn better than frickin redeployment, especially with these armies with crazy mobility?
Lets you do weird things like deploy the infantry back on your baseline during normal deployment to upset/confuse your opponents deployment/plan, then redeploy those cheeky phobos wearers into infiltration range afterwards.
The redeploy one looks fun. It allows you to screw up an opponent's counter deploy or allows you to deploy aggressively for a seize and they redeploy if you don't get it.
BrotherGecko wrote: The redeploy one looks fun. It allows you to screw up an opponent's counter deploy or allows you to deploy aggressively for a seize and they redeploy if you don't get it.
The problem with this is that you pick your warlord trait before knowing who’s going first. Even then though, being able to redeploy 30 infiltrators up front if going first or move some suppressors in/out of sight after a seize is pretty huge.
The problem with this is that you pick your warlord trait before knowing who’s going first. Even then though, being able to redeploy 30 infiltrators up front if going first or move some suppressors in/out of sight after a seize is pretty huge.
Works for any <CHAPTER> infantry unit though, not just Vanguard.
The +1 to hit warlord trait is pretty good. Always on prescience. It has solid synergy with any high volume of shooting unit like Centurions, crusader raiders, repulsors, hellblasters and possibly a beefy squad of suppressors. I think it's a solid option and goes great on a libby who has no real shooting anyways. As always it has great synergy with crimson fists. Slap it on a horde busting dakka crimson fist centurion unit and watch them spew out bolter shots that generate more bolter shots on a 4+.
The re-deploy warlord trait has it's use. Having that in your pocket can really mess with the enemy if the map's terrain allows you to pull off some bait and switch. Overload a flank with infiltrators to bait out units against them then BOOP them to another flank. Your opponent might understand this tactic, but still has to respond to the threat of 30 primaris bodies being in their face turn one.
Binabik15 wrote: The Vanguard article's cover image shows a good side-view of a Suppressor. No additional jump pack/turbine hiding there, just as people assumed. Those are really weird models.
I'm guessing the 'jump pack' are the extra thruster pods on top of the backpack and on the back of the boots.
Has to be, but they look badly unbalanced as a result, IMO.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Or put Target Priority on the Librarian that won't be shooting anyway...
Yup, I was thinking 10 man Infiltrator squad with Target Priority Librarian to trigger more 6s while also empowering them with to hit rerolls. Pity mini-apothecary can't heal characters, tho.
I'd rather have the redeploy on a strat rather than a WL trait. I just don't think I would use it over several of the other WL traits and unless they get some sort of vigilus detachment extra WL trait I'm not sure it will see much use but I do like it, just wish it was a strat as opposed to a WLT.
Crimson wrote: So I saw these supposed leaked point costs. I have no idea if they're real, I kinda hope not...
CSM 13
GP 70
MoP 90
Oblit 115
Venom 130
Autocannon 10
Plasmas Gun 11
Plasma Pistol 5
Captain in Phobos 110
Eliminator 18
Infiltrator 22
Helix Adept 32
Librarian in Phobos 100
Lt in Phobos 80
Suppressor 18
Accelerator Cannon 15
Bolt Sniper 3
Seems real. Super disappointed with the Venomcrawler. That is a hefty price. The Oblits are in the middle of where people were suspecting (between 100 and 130). Still 115 is pricey for how fragile they are relative to how much of a target they have on their backs (especially in a meta with all of the Imperial players running a poké-assassin in every list).
I don't know where these points came from, but I doubt that infiltrators are more expensive than eliminators...
They were from a Facebook group. It is completely possible that someone just made them up. Then again, it wouldn't be exactly unprecedented for GW to give stuff nonsensical point costs...
Crimson wrote: So I saw these supposed leaked point costs. I have no idea if they're real, I kinda hope not...
CSM 13
GP 70
MoP 90
Oblit 115
Venom 130
Autocannon 10
Plasmas Gun 11
Plasma Pistol 5
Captain in Phobos 110
Eliminator 18
Infiltrator 22
Helix Adept 32
Librarian in Phobos 100
Lt in Phobos 80
Suppressor 18
Accelerator Cannon 15
Bolt Sniper 3
If these are accurate the new CSM things are DoA, and one of the few good options(Oblits) just got priced into the trash bin. No one is going to drop 130 points on a Venomcrawler when you can get a Forgefiend or Defiler for 10 points more. Especially when Fiends/Deffys are barely used now.
Crimson wrote: So I saw these supposed leaked point costs. I have no idea if they're real, I kinda hope not...
CSM 13
GP 70
MoP 90
Oblit 115
Venom 130
Autocannon 10
Plasmas Gun 11
Plasma Pistol 5
Captain in Phobos 110
Eliminator 18
Infiltrator 22
Helix Adept 32
Librarian in Phobos 100
Lt in Phobos 80
Suppressor 18
Accelerator Cannon 15
Bolt Sniper 3
I don't know where these points came from, but I doubt that infiltrators are more expensive than eliminators...
Infiltrators will be more expensive than many other primaris because they have more abilities and gear. They certainly should be more expensive than intercessors which are already 17ppm. 22pts puts them exactly at 20pts per power level, which is reasonable considering all the things they get.
Crimson wrote: So I saw these supposed leaked point costs. I have no idea if they're real, I kinda hope not...
CSM 13
GP 70
MoP 90
Oblit 115
Venom 130
Autocannon 10
Plasmas Gun 11
Plasma Pistol 5
Captain in Phobos 110
Eliminator 18
Infiltrator 22
Helix Adept 32
Librarian in Phobos 100
Lt in Phobos 80
Suppressor 18
Accelerator Cannon 15
Bolt Sniper 3
Primaris wise
Captain at 110? That's really, REALLY expensive for a guy with a knife. Absolute pass. Garbage bin.
Elimintors at 21 points is pretty good. Cheap enough to bring in force to be a threat to characters while not breaking the bank.
Infiltrators at 22 are REALLY expensive. 5 more points than an intercessor for a unit that is worse at fighting and has to give up shooting to use their grenade to be -1 to hit? They might find a place just because of their scrambler, but geez they are super expensive. I think they will be a pass outside of just being there to deny DS and even then you can just take guardsmen to do the same for less. If you only ever fight against GSC then yeah they are great, but otherwise very cost prohibitive for a unit that might be useful.
Helix adapt for 32 points is kinda hefty. He brings back 22 point boys on a 5+ and heals them, but I don't see him being taken just because he will be in a squad that is likely going to be small size due to their very high price point.
Librarian for 100 is solid and stays in line with the cost of a primaris psyker. Libbys are already pretty expensive, but he is not terrible by any stretch I think.
LT for 80 points? Hard pass. He has pathetic weaponry and pays to deploy outside your deployment zone with units you don't even want to bring. I'll take a normal Lt. over him any day.
33 point suppressors are pretty solid I think. 33 points for two ap-2 auto cannon with the fly keyword is not bad at all. Very competitive with a hellblaster with the advantage of being far faster, having the fly keyword, optional smoke grenade and operate at full damage output up to 48 inches. I'll take two s7 ap-2 d2 shots over 1 overcharged s8ap-4 d2 shot any day.
If these are real, I'm most bummed about the Infiltrators. I wanted to get a lot of them, as I think they look cool. I was expecting them to be the same cost as the Intercessors, or couple of points more at most. Five points more would be bonkers.
I'd argue that these are made up, not because of any balance, but the boxed stuff (starters and board games with 40k rules) I've seen is prefab (i.e. "this is the cost of 10 CSM with this load out" rather than "CSM x 10 + weapon + weapon + weapon" or whatever).
I haven't seen all of the starters in 8th, though: are some points written like normal codecies?
anyone that thought infiltrators wouldn't cost multiple points more than intercessors was smoking crack.
They have the same statline, a better gun (auto wound on unmod 6s to hit), special deployment rules aka scouts, can deny DS built in, and have an upgrade that lets them heal and restore slain models, oh and 1 use smoke grenades.
Obviously they are going to cost more points than intercessors.
I expected them to be more, but, not 5 points more. Maybe 3 max.
Still, we'll find out the true costs soon enough. I'm guessing the HQ models also dont have equipment paid for, so, could go up by 4-8 points each depending on loadout. (4 for force sword,4/5 for gun and 3 for camo cloak etc)
I was convinced (admittedly based on nothing but a hunch) that infiltrators would be 19 points each. 22 is a bit too steep unless they also get some real nifty unique strats.
Eliminatos and suppressors are priced correctly though.
The venomcrawler is probably 15 points overcosted and the obliterators maybe 10 points over?
and my text is all wee!
