Yup, because they always operate with others and totally not undertake 95% of missions on their own
Have you ever read any of the deathwatch lore? They are a kill team. Not mass army deployment, they deploy with others when they need strength.
Deathwatch are far too spread out, they operate at most at squads of 5 members, sometimes on rare ocassion 10. This has not changed at all since any edition, even in their current codex. They only deploy at least 30 marines on very rare ocassions. If we want marines to be good overall we get rid of deathwatch because it is damaging the pool for space marine armies.
There is no reason currently or competitively not to take deathwatch over a normal squad other than points. Deathwatch intercessors have a -1 ap in edition to their damage they already deal.
It currently destroys any competitiveness that the other armies can have, until then get rid of them and just make an elite choice, and then they will be fine. They should never have been a solo army, exactly like the tempestus scions, who I agree should not have had their solo codex.
An interesting opinion on balance. Tell me, are you aware the best mono marine list at LVO had 0 deathwatch and finished top 8? Why at an event where people are trying to build the best list they can did this player choose not to bring DW in a mono marine list? Clearly he isn't a bad player, but I am sure you can explain why a competent player chose to not play the superior marine faction.
I hope we get some info tomorrow of the Black Legion and what else we are getting. If we get a new defiler that would be pretty cool to see a reimagining considering how much better the black legion models look compared to the primaris models overall.
I think I am more excited about chopping space marines for the warmaster than actually having some of those supressors.
Well, personally I am a bit tired of DW getting about 40% offence buff for one point per model. If you balance marines around SIA, then ones without it will suck. Granted, Guilliman produces exactly similar issue.
Sterling191 wrote: Ah hysteria that Deathwatch might get something nice. Good times.
So you want one unit to have access to 6 different types of ammunition for what reason? Its stupid, and insane. Because it makes not a lick of sense, they already have those ammo options why do they need more? Why would you make a unit that is already great, have so many options? I don't think anyone is carrying six different ammunition types on their body. It doesn't make any sense for the Deathwatch to get them in their current form, yeah they will be a deathwatch unit eventually but it would be pretty stupid to give them six options right off the bat. Deathwatch is already on the 'watch list' for myriads of reasons. And the better marines get as a whole the better the entire deathwatch codex becomes.
Infiltrators, on the other hand, becoming deathwatch is just weird because what you could do is just take 1 infiltrator per a squad and then you just prevent players from appearing anywhere on the board with deep strike. People in this thread already feared what space marines could do with infiltrators, but imagine deathwatch spammings single mixed units that prevent you from just outright deploying. It is stupid as is and I can see rampant abuse from its setup.
Deathwatch is not competitive along with all marine armies. Saying one marine army got onto the LVO was because of the same build as before is not surprising. Given time, we will see scale creep every single marine release as deathwatch are quite inexpensive, given time they will be the best marine army. It is inevitable given their rules. That is not fear mongering or hysteria, its just realism to what could happen. Hysteria implies I'm being illogical about it, I played deathwatch quite a bit and got disgusted how effective they are for just 1 pt increase. Yeah you don't see them in LVO or tournaments but once you can run them as all deathwatch ultramarines with a bobby G and a knight titan, and some 32, its gets disgusting especially once you start spamming storm shields on everyone.
'Hysteria' or soothsaying is not what I would go with as that implies illogical rationale.
For the chaos units in this, I hope they include something else for the chaos space marines, the psychic rules and all that seem interesting, but my biggest hope is that there are new warlord traits specific for units so you could theme an army around a warlord. As i hope you could do that with all armies included. Like maybe getting bikes as a troop choice? Or raptors as a troop choice? Or maybe giving them some type of tactic across the entire detachment that warlord is in (and has the same faction keyword) in addition to legion / chapter rules / craftworld rules. (now that is day dreaming gotta stop)
Crimson wrote: Well, personally I am a bit tired of DW getting about 40% offence buff for one point per model. If you balance marines around SIA, then ones without it will suck. Granted, Guilliman produces exactly similar issue.
At a 20% reduction of your total army (GMAN IS 400 points and IS NOT an HQ so you still have to buy HQ). Plus compare DW buffed by a Watch captain and a the reroll 1's to wound trait. They outperform similar points of ultra marines intercessors under guilliman buff. So in other words - DW get Guilliman buff FOR FREE. It's freaking disgusting how bad space marines are. That DW can be this good compared to space marines but DW don't dominate the competitive scene. It really goes to show you how far behind this army is.
Crimson wrote: Well, personally I am a bit tired of DW getting about 40% offence buff for one point per model. If you balance marines around SIA, then ones without it will suck. Granted, Guilliman produces exactly similar issue.
At a 20% reduction of your total army (GMAN IS 400 points and IS NOT an HQ so you still have to buy HQ). Plus compare DW buffed by a Watch captain and a the reroll 1's to wound trait. They outperform similar points of ultra marines intercessors under guilliman buff. So in other words - DW get Guilliman buff FOR FREE. It's freaking disgusting how bad space marines are. That DW can be this good compared to space marines but DW don't dominate the competitive scene. It really goes to show you how far behind this army is.
And all the other stuff we saw as rumours the other week.
I wouldn’t expect all of that. I’m just expecting Abaddon tomorrow, which honestly is more than enough for me. I don’t mind waiting a bit for the rest.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I just hope Worldbreaker or whatever his name is finds his spear. It's been stuck in the ground for 80 days!!! Poor guy.
He still has his lightning claw. And his bolt pistol...oh wait.
In other news, what are people expecting for additional loadouts for these squads when they come out?
Perhaps GW will actually give Primaris some Anti-Tank and give the Eliminators something like a Lascannon or Missile Launcher. That would be nuts, but also sort of appropriate. They focus on high-value targets.
I don't see the Suppressors getting an Onslaught Cannon as that would basically make them the same thing as the Assault Bolter Inceptors, but with T4 and Heavy instead of Assault. So they might be a place where a Laser weapon might be appropriate. But that wouldn't really mesh with their Suppressive Fire special rule. Honestly, a close combat weapon and a multi-shot weapon would be good for them with their rules. Give them a Power Lance and a Storm Bolter and let them go to work.
Infiltrators are likely going to get non-MC versions of the two Bolt Carbines the Captain and Lieutenant have.
Crimson wrote: Well, personally I am a bit tired of DW getting about 40% offence buff for one point per model. If you balance marines around SIA, then ones without it will suck. Granted, Guilliman produces exactly similar issue.
At a 20% reduction of your total army (GMAN IS 400 points and IS NOT an HQ so you still have to buy HQ). Plus compare DW buffed by a Watch captain and a the reroll 1's to wound trait. They outperform similar points of ultra marines intercessors under guilliman buff. So in other words - DW get Guilliman buff FOR FREE. It's freaking disgusting how bad space marines are. That DW can be this good compared to space marines but DW don't dominate the competitive scene. It really goes to show you how far behind this army is.
Reroll 1s to wound vs a specific part of the army that costs CP to change.
A chapter master or high level UM character like Calgar gives full rerolls to hit. A lieutenant gives reroll 1s to wound.
According to Jes, the Reivers were very popular, and it is probably because they have big knives.
He also mentions that they designed all these different kinds of Primaris in different styles of armor (and presumably more besides) from the very beginning, before certain ones were chosen for the first wave.
I could listen to Jes talk about his work like this all day Cant wait to see what else he has cooked up for the Primaris line.
around the 16-17 minute mark it sounds like they confirm my "all primaris are cross trained" theory
Your theory? All Marines have always been cross trained in every other job. The issue is that primaris only have a single weapon option usually which is why people complain about their units.
I could listen to Jes talk about his work like this all day Cant wait to see what else he has cooked up for the Primaris line.
around the 16-17 minute mark it sounds like they confirm my "all primaris are cross trained" theory
I can't see why they wouldn't be. All Marines are cross-trained into the different units in the Army. Every Tactical Marine has been an Assault Marine or Devastator before, and likely engaged in combat using one of their variation units (Assault or Devastator Centurions, Landspeeder Pilot or Gunner, Biker, etc).
Primaris being able to do the same isn't exactly a surprise.
I could listen to Jes talk about his work like this all day Cant wait to see what else he has cooked up for the Primaris line.
around the 16-17 minute mark it sounds like they confirm my "all primaris are cross trained" theory
I can't see why they wouldn't be. All Marines are cross-trained into the different units in the Army. Every Tactical Marine has been an Assault Marine or Devastator before, and likely engaged in combat using one of their variation units (Assault or Devastator Centurions, Landspeeder Pilot or Gunner, Biker, etc).
Primaris being able to do the same isn't exactly a surprise.
ohh I agree. it's not a suprise it's just nice to know for sure that a man who works as a intercessor today could be deployed as an inceptor tomorrow. explains how those vanguard units fit into the 2nd companies deployment table.
I could listen to Jes talk about his work like this all day Cant wait to see what else he has cooked up for the Primaris line.
around the 16-17 minute mark it sounds like they confirm my "all primaris are cross trained" theory
I can't see why they wouldn't be. All Marines are cross-trained into the different units in the Army. Every Tactical Marine has been an Assault Marine or Devastator before, and likely engaged in combat using one of their variation units (Assault or Devastator Centurions, Landspeeder Pilot or Gunner, Biker, etc).
Primaris being able to do the same isn't exactly a surprise.
ohh I agree. it's not a suprise it's just nice to know for sure that a man who works as a intercessor today could be deployed as an inceptor tomorrow. explains how those vanguard units fit into the 2nd companies deployment table.
Oh for sure. It also makes the fact I am likely going to swap out three Intercessor Squads for Infiltrator Squads not all that crazy. Same goes for me likely removing a Hellblaster Squad to make room for some Eliminators. It's all the same guys, just different weapons and armor for this battle.
I don't understand why normal Marine players aren't using the Deathwatch codex anyway, my army is crimson fists but I use the the Deathwatch codex and just say they are xenos fighting experts... Makes sense to me! Ive planned on buying this for a long time but I need to know if Deathwatch can take the new stuff or I may have to skip them for a bit.
Because some people like playing their army rather than 'Counts As'.
Anyway, back to Shadow Spear and it's related products: Maybe we'll be lucky and the real Supressor kit will allow them to be placed on the ground rather than floating around like idiots.
Rogerio134134 wrote: I don't understand why normal Marine players aren't using the Deathwatch codex anyway, my army is crimson fists but I use the the Deathwatch codex and just say they are xenos fighting experts... Makes sense to me! Ive planned on buying this for a long time but I need to know if Deathwatch can take the new stuff or I may have to skip them for a bit.
Because I don't want to? Because I like my Chapter Tactics (Crimson Fists, BTW), relics, Warlord Traits, and all the myriad ways I can play my Army using the codex? My local meta is geared toward strong, but not WAAC. The Loyal 32 isn't a common sight here, for example. People lean more towards single codex.
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H.B.M.C. wrote: Because some people like playing their army rather than 'Counts As'.
Anyway, back to Shadow Spear and it's related products: Maybe we'll be lucky and the real Supressor kit will allow them to be placed on the ground rather than floating around like idiots.
I think the two regular dudes will look fine on the ground. The Sergeant will need some creative basing. I am interested in the different weapon options though. I hope they actually DON'T get the Onslaught Gatling, since it would make them Worse Inceptors.
Sterling191 wrote: Ah hysteria that Deathwatch might get something nice. Good times.
So you want one unit to have access to 6 different types of ammunition for what reason? Its stupid, and insane. Because it makes not a lick of sense, they already have those ammo options why do they need more? Why would you make a unit that is already great, have so many options? I don't think anyone is carrying six different ammunition types on their body. It doesn't make any sense for the Deathwatch to get them in their current form, yeah they will be a deathwatch unit eventually but it would be pretty stupid to give them six options right off the bat. Deathwatch is already on the 'watch list' for myriads of reasons. And the better marines get as a whole the better the entire deathwatch codex becomes.
Infiltrators, on the other hand, becoming deathwatch is just weird because what you could do is just take 1 infiltrator per a squad and then you just prevent players from appearing anywhere on the board with deep strike. People in this thread already feared what space marines could do with infiltrators, but imagine deathwatch spammings single mixed units that prevent you from just outright deploying. It is stupid as is and I can see rampant abuse from its setup.
Deathwatch is not competitive along with all marine armies. Saying one marine army got onto the LVO was because of the same build as before is not surprising. Given time, we will see scale creep every single marine release as deathwatch are quite inexpensive, given time they will be the best marine army. It is inevitable given their rules. That is not fear mongering or hysteria, its just realism to what could happen. Hysteria implies I'm being illogical about it, I played deathwatch quite a bit and got disgusted how effective they are for just 1 pt increase. Yeah you don't see them in LVO or tournaments but once you can run them as all deathwatch ultramarines with a bobby G and a knight titan, and some 32, its gets disgusting especially once you start spamming storm shields on everyone.
'Hysteria' or soothsaying is not what I would go with as that implies illogical rationale.
For the chaos units in this, I hope they include something else for the chaos space marines, the psychic rules and all that seem interesting, but my biggest hope is that there are new warlord traits specific for units so you could theme an army around a warlord. As i hope you could do that with all armies included. Like maybe getting bikes as a troop choice? Or raptors as a troop choice? Or maybe giving them some type of tactic across the entire detachment that warlord is in (and has the same faction keyword) in addition to legion / chapter rules / craftworld rules. (now that is day dreaming gotta stop)
1. Nobody but you in this thread "feared" what Marines could do with these Infiltrators.
2. Deathwatch Vets are actually 2 points more, because they pay for their Bolter along with whatever else you have them.
3. Most people haven't defended 2 point Storm Shields, but keep in mind these are at minimum 17 point models that will basically die as quick as regular Marines to anything AP0 or 1.
4. The issue is with codex Marines, not Deathwatch.
Rogerio134134 wrote: I don't understand why normal Marine players aren't using the Deathwatch codex anyway, my army is crimson fists but I use the the Deathwatch codex and just say they are xenos fighting experts...
That you feel that you need to do that should make it abundantly clear that there's a balance issue.
Rogerio134134 wrote: I don't understand why normal Marine players aren't using the Deathwatch codex anyway, my army is crimson fists but I use the the Deathwatch codex and just say they are xenos fighting experts...
That you feel that you need to do that should make it abundantly clear that there's a balance issue.
Seconded, if you are forced to switch to another related army because of the rules then something is wrong.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I think the two regular dudes will look fine on the ground. The Sergeant will need some creative basing. I am interested in the different weapon options though. I hope they actually DON'T get the Onslaught Gatling, since it would make them Worse Inceptors.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I think the two regular dudes will look fine on the ground. The Sergeant will need some creative basing. I am interested in the different weapon options though. I hope they actually DON'T get the Onslaught Gatling, since it would make them Worse Inceptors.
I’m hoping for some version of Meltagun.
That would be cool, but it would make even less sense for Suppressing Fire. The Onslaught Gatling Cannon would make sense, it would just make them 100% redundant with Inceptors.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I think the two regular dudes will look fine on the ground. The Sergeant will need some creative basing. I am interested in the different weapon options though. I hope they actually DON'T get the Onslaught Gatling, since it would make them Worse Inceptors.
I’m hoping for some version of Meltagun.
That would be cool, but it would make even less sense for Suppressing Fire. The Onslaught Gatling Cannon would make sense, it would just make them 100% redundant with Inceptors.
Hey, maybe we will see Suppressors with multilasers?
I wonder if Abaddon will stay at the regular marine size. Would be difficult to see him as that big bad boy when the 3 main heroes from the imperium (Calgar, Cawl, Guliiman) dwarfs him.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I think the two regular dudes will look fine on the ground. The Sergeant will need some creative basing.
I'm less concerned with the push-fit Suppressors, and more with the full kit. With (hopefully) some ability to pose the legs their crappy floating around firehose look won't be a problem.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am interested in the different weapon options though. I hope they actually DON'T get the Onslaught Gatling, since it would make them Worse Inceptors.
I want a big missile rig. There are some pieces of concept art from 4th Ed that had alternate Devastator ideas. One was a Marine with double Assault Cannons that was kinda cool, but another was a Dev with a big missile harness that is reminiscent of the launchers on Centurions and later the Aggressors.
That on a Suppressor would be awesome, especially if the "missile barrage" theme keeps with the idea that they "suppress" enemy troops.
streetsamurai wrote: I wonder if Abaddon will stay at the regular marine size. Would be difficult to see him as that big bad boy when the 3 main heroes from the imperium (Calgar, Cawl, Guliiman) dwarfs him.
He'll go through the Rubicon Chaotica or something to biggerize himself so he can better beat up Calgar and Papa Smurf.
Azazelx wrote: You can see he's been embiggened by the preview shots. I wouldn't be surprised to see him closer to Guilliman than Calgar at this point.
According to french wargame studio he is Gulliman like height wise and stat wise.
@H.B.M.C. I agree. The regular kit better be able to look good on the ground. Inceptors had the same problem. Part of me wants to have smoke jets coming out of the jump packs so it looks like they were arresting their fall rather than jumping up. I hate the flight bases they came in though.
A Missile Launcher would be great. Even with the ML stats currently, they would definitely get some work done. Suppressing Fire certainly seems like it will make Tau sad. Even each Suppressor popping two shots off at multiple units would effective.
Azazelx wrote: You can see he's been embiggened by the preview shots. I wouldn't be surprised to see him closer to Guilliman than Calgar at this point.
Given that the novels described him as being close to Horus in height, yeah, I would be surprised if he's not considerably larger than before.
Azazelx wrote: You can see he's been embiggened by the preview shots. I wouldn't be surprised to see him closer to Guilliman than Calgar at this point.
Given that the novels described him as being close to Horus in height, yeah, I would be surprised if he's not considerably larger than before.
Which is kind of the point. He is essentially a clone of Horus now. Which is hilarious because he HATES Horus.
Azazelx wrote: You can see he's been embiggened by the preview shots. I wouldn't be surprised to see him closer to Guilliman than Calgar at this point.
Given that the novels described him as being close to Horus in height, yeah, I would be surprised if he's not considerably larger than before.
Which, to be fair, he should be. Like Ghaz, Abaddon really suffers from small-model syndrome.
Abaddon is blessed by all four Chaos gods- only Belakor shares this trait in current 40k. Abaddon should be an absolutely Chaos-bloated monster with the boons he has received. He was meant to be a big Marine to start with too.
Azazelx wrote: You can see he's been embiggened by the preview shots. I wouldn't be surprised to see him closer to Guilliman than Calgar at this point.
According to french wargame studio he is Gulliman like height wise and stat wise.
Honestly, I feel like the biggest takeaway is that Suppressors aren't intended to be "orbital" troops like the Inceptors are--hence the lighter armor. Jes seemed to hint/imply there might be a "dropship" coming that ties with the Vanguard.
Azazelx wrote: You can see he's been embiggened by the preview shots. I wouldn't be surprised to see him closer to Guilliman than Calgar at this point.
According to french wargame studio he is Gulliman like height wise and stat wise.
Makes sense. He's essentially a lot like a Daemon Prince in many ways, so it fits fine in my opinion.
What sorts of weapons would be good at suppressing an enemy?
My thinking immediately goes to flamers and frag cannons. Suppressors with some type of flamer would be pretty boss, especially if it had a range longer than 8". Some form of grenade launcher or shrapnel launcher would be good too.
But yeah, I'm tempted to hold off for the full kit. Seeing some of these models be easy-build duplicates is a bit frustrating. I'm also pretty sure that the full venomcrawler kit will solve a lot more of the daemon engine rumors. It'll come as its own kit with more options, much like the feotid bloat drone did.
casvalremdeikun wrote: @H.B.M.C. I agree. The regular kit better be able to look good on the ground. Inceptors had the same problem. Part of me wants to have smoke jets coming out of the jump packs so it looks like they were arresting their fall rather than jumping up. I hate the flight bases they came in though.
A Missile Launcher would be great. Even with the ML stats currently, they would definitely get some work done. Suppressing Fire certainly seems like it will make Tau sad. Even each Suppressor popping two shots off at multiple units would effective.
I actually agree. I really want suppressors to be able to stand since to me the seem more like they shoot, redeploy, shoot, etc.
They don't seem to be zipping around like inceptors.
Anyway I may have to buy the ETB intercessors and do some cutting
drbored wrote: What sorts of weapons would be good at suppressing an enemy?
My thinking immediately goes to flamers and frag cannons. Suppressors with some type of flamer would be pretty boss, especially if it had a range longer than 8". Some form of grenade launcher or shrapnel launcher would be good too.
But yeah, I'm tempted to hold off for the full kit. Seeing some of these models be easy-build duplicates is a bit frustrating. I'm also pretty sure that the full venomcrawler kit will solve a lot more of the daemon engine rumors. It'll come as its own kit with more options, much like the feotid bloat drone did.
Neither of those would be (if you mean the frag cannon that is a flamer). This makes me wonder if everyone with military experience or exposure has quit GW, as these Space Marine designs keep getting further and further away from what utilitarian military hardware should be (and was before the Dark Imperium fluff atrocity).
A suppressive weapon would be a heavy bolter, assault cannon or explosive weapon like grenades/missiles. Since you’re not trying to kill but keep someone from engaging.
Although we haven't seen them from behind except in that not-at-all-clear artwork, I don't think they're jump troops like Assault Marines or Inceptors (even if the minis work as jump troops when done correctly, as that shoop from the other page showed). I just think they float down, land, and then start blazing away.
Why they chose to make the minis in the "floating down" portion of their deployment I will never know.
Then again, we may see a 360 and it turns out they have a big 'ol ramjet sticking out their behind kinda like the Sanguinary Guard.
Kirasu wrote: A suppressive weapon would be a heavy bolter, assault cannon or explosive weapon like grenades/missiles. Since you’re not trying to kill but keep someone from engaging.
That's why want a big frag missiles system thing that just launches tons of shells at the enemy. They have a high-strength decent RoF autocannon for suppressing larger targets (plus the added AA bonus) and then a big explosive anti-infantry deterrent.
drbored wrote: What sorts of weapons would be good at suppressing an enemy?
My thinking immediately goes to flamers and frag cannons. Suppressors with some type of flamer would be pretty boss, especially if it had a range longer than 8". Some form of grenade launcher or shrapnel launcher would be good too.
But yeah, I'm tempted to hold off for the full kit. Seeing some of these models be easy-build duplicates is a bit frustrating. I'm also pretty sure that the full venomcrawler kit will solve a lot more of the daemon engine rumors. It'll come as its own kit with more options, much like the feotid bloat drone did.
Neither of those would be (if you mean the frag cannon that is a flamer). This makes me wonder if everyone with military experience or exposure has quit GW, as these Space Marine designs keep getting further and further away from what utilitarian military hardware should be (and was before the Dark Imperium fluff atrocity).
A suppressive weapon would be a heavy bolter, assault cannon or explosive weapon like grenades/missiles. Since you’re not trying to kill but keep someone from engaging.
Yup, sustained dakka keeps people's heads down. When talking about machine guns, area targets are just as important as point targets. The idea being you want to prevent your opponent from being both able to look around and maintain their situational awareness. The former is so they can't return fire and the later is so they don't know where your other fire teams are as they attempt to flank.
Azazelx wrote: You can see he's been embiggened by the preview shots. I wouldn't be surprised to see him closer to Guilliman than Calgar at this point.
According to french wargame studio he is Gulliman like height wise and stat wise.
Makes sense. He's essentially a lot like a Daemon Prince in many ways, so it fits fine in my opinion.
I've previously argued that it would be silly for Abbadon to approach anything like a Primarch given that Primarchs are basically walking gods and they are genetically so different from normal space marines. Even if Abbadon is unusually big and bad and an incredibly dangerous fighter.
However, reading the ADB books, it seems to me that Abbadon wasn't just huge, he was unusually similar to Horus in size and resemblance to the point where he could be almost be a Primarch. Then add in the force of will of commanding the Long War for 10,000 years, plus being swollen with the power of the 4 Chaos Gods just like Horus (who went toe-to-toe with the Emperor at that point), plus whatever the effects of carrying dread weapons like Drachnyen and the Talon, and I have to think that I was wrong and that Abbadon is unique in that he could ultimately qualify for Primarch levels of physicality and genius. Especially since Gullimen is to some extent damaged and resurrected goods.
Neither of those would be (if you mean the frag cannon that is a flamer). This makes me wonder if everyone with military experience or exposure has quit GW, as these Space Marine designs keep getting further and further away from what utilitarian military hardware should be (and was before the Dark Imperium fluff atrocity).
A suppressive weapon would be a heavy bolter, assault cannon or explosive weapon like grenades/missiles. Since you’re not trying to kill but keep someone from engaging.
You do know you’re armchairing Jes freakin’ Goodwin, right? We’re lucky to have someone exploring initially-unexpected silhouettes that make perfect 40k sense the longer you look at them rather than the most obvious weaponry/suit styles you’re advocating for.
Which, to be fair, he should be. Like Ghaz, Abaddon really suffers from small-model syndrome..
To be fair, when the current model was released, he was significantly larger than any other existing marine. And at that point the Primarchs hadn't really been described in any detail and the nonsense about them being 12' tall hadn't been introduced. Mike McVey's 2nd edition-era version of Horus (for his Horus vs the Emperor diorama) was based on a regular Chaos Terminator Lord.
He's just suffering from being out of date, with the Primarchs' being fluffed out and the ridiculous Guilliman model taking to the table.
Abaddon being similar to Horus has always been part of his fluff; granted, it made more sense before Primarchs were these bizarre giant freaks they're today.
bullyboy wrote: Supressors with an Onslaught gatling cannon and a cyclone-light missile rack would be fantastic....would match the name.
My issue with the Onslaught Gatling Cannon is that it is functionally identical to them having two Heavy Bolters, which is what the Inceptors have. A multi-missile launcher would be cool. Maybe make it sort of like the Castellan Launchers of the Whirlwind. 2d6Str 6 AP 0 shots.
Virules wrote: However, reading the ADB books, it seems to me that Abbadon wasn't just huge, he was unusually similar to Horus in size and resemblance to the point where he could be almost be a Primarch.
The key part of that sentence is "ADB". He always inflates certain characters beyond reasonable limits (like Khayon and that ridiculous sword of his).
Virules wrote: However, reading the ADB books, it seems to me that Abbadon wasn't just huge, he was unusually similar to Horus in size and resemblance to the point where he could be almost be a Primarch.
The key part of that sentence is "ADB". He always inflates certain characters beyond reasonable limits (like Khayon and that ridiculous sword of his).
He also has unrivaled access to published and unpublished background material directly from the people who have determined the entire setting. Not to mention that his books are referenced as core canon more and more frequently by GW.
Virules wrote: However, reading the ADB books, it seems to me that Abbadon wasn't just huge, he was unusually similar to Horus in size and resemblance to the point where he could be almost be a Primarch.
The key part of that sentence is "ADB". He always inflates certain characters beyond reasonable limits (like Khayon and that ridiculous sword of his).
The suggestion that Abaddon was possibly a clone of Horus dates back to 2nd edition. It's only the Primarchs being stupidly large that has been added by the novels.
Virules wrote: However, reading the ADB books, it seems to me that Abbadon wasn't just huge, he was unusually similar to Horus in size and resemblance to the point where he could be almost be a Primarch.
The key part of that sentence is "ADB". He always inflates certain characters beyond reasonable limits (like Khayon and that ridiculous sword of his).
He also has unrivaled access to published and unpublished background material directly from the people who have determined the entire setting. Not to mention that his books are referenced as core canon more and more frequently by GW.
And Abaddon being the "spitting image of Horus" to the point where people thought he was a clone has LOOOONG been a part of the lore
The level of assumption and fear mongering in this post is delicious. Please continue.
There will be a flood of Primaris Lieutenants all wearing the same weapons and costumes, one will have a facial beard, another will be a vampire, one will be a wolfy wolf, and it will destroy the miniature world. Codex Primaris Lieutenant, deathwatch insurgency. no refunds
Virules wrote: Not sure if direct linking is allowed here, but I have a pic of the Obscuration discipline on my blog (link in sig).
Cheers.
The Obscuration Discipline is... quite interesting.
I'm sure better players than me can find some good use for Shrouding and Temporal Corridor, but personally I can't see myself using these powers very often, however:
Scryer's Gaze seems solid on a large unit of Infiltrators (and probably Eliminators), assuming you can't get re-rolls from a different source (Captain/CM).
Hallucination is outright nasty against shooty units with poor/average leadership, and works on melee-units as well.
Tenebrous Curse will more often than not put an non-flying enemy melee unit out of action for a turn.
Mind Raid is hilarious (fluffwise), and who doesn't love extra CP?
Virules wrote: Not sure if direct linking is allowed here, but I have a pic of the Obscuration discipline on my blog (link in sig).
If this is true these powers are gonna be pretty amazeballs. but are also INSANELY situational because they'll basicly only buff Phobos units.
Yeah the three buff-powers are very situational. Ignore them if you bring few/no Phobos-units to the table.
The three debuff-powers look like solid picks in most lists though, regardless of the number of Phobos-units you bring.
Virules wrote: Not sure if direct linking is allowed here, but I have a pic of the Obscuration discipline on my blog (link in sig).
Cheers.
The Obscuration Discipline is... quite interesting.
I'm sure better players than me can find some good use for Shrouding and Temporal Corridor, but personally I can't see myself using these powers very often. Scryer's Gaze seems solid on a large unit of Infiltrators (and probably Eliminators), assuming you can't get re-rolls from a different source (Captain/CM). Hallucination is outright nasty against shooty units with poor/average leadership. Tenebrous Curse will more often than not put an non-flying enemy melee unit out of action for a turn. Mind Raid is hilarious (fluffwise), and who doesn't love extra CP?
All in all, seems like a solid discipline.
Now we need one for close support and close combat units. Like an EmperorsChampion with a pseudo Faith ability similar to Sisters of Battle. That'd be cool.
*coughs loudly*
Overall i was reading the rules and i saw something that made me laugh, one of these could be targeted at a knight titan. Make them do a leadership roll and when they fail you just make them roll -1 on all their hit rolls. making them ripe for an attack with some thunderhammers.
And Abaddon being the "spitting image of Horus" to the point where people thought he was a clone has LOOOONG been a part of the lore
I would be fine with that, anything to get the warmaster a new model and some badass action, maybe killing Pedro Kantor or some other famous space marine?
I wouldn't mind. It makes sense given the context of 40k.
Kind of concerning that so much only effects Phobos, if that is an indication I would assume Malefic only effects demon engines. Here is hoping for a +1 to hit for them.
It's a nice discipline! The only thing holding it back is that it's very limited in what units it can go on. If those units are good (ie, cheap), then the buffs will be great. If not, we'll mostly see it for the offensive use.
Will Mind Raid count against the CP regen cap i wonder?
I like Obscuration. 10/10 will use. I don't like Temporal Corridor since, as of right now, we have no Assault Weapon Phobos units. Shrouding would be good for keeping a squad of Eliminators or Infiltrators alive. Especially if you want to keep those Infiltrators around to disrupt Deep Strike. Scryer's Gaze would be good to get those extra hits for a unit of Eliminators. Not bad. Hallucination ruins low Ld units. It would affect Overwatch too, if I remember right. Tenebrous Curse is going to slow something down to the point of uselessness, the MW is a nice add-on. Mind Raid looks to be the best to me. A MW on a Character and a bonus CP if you roll well. I guess you could use it on a non-character if you really hate CPs.
Neither of those would be (if you mean the frag cannon that is a flamer). This makes me wonder if everyone with military experience or exposure has quit GW, as these Space Marine designs keep getting further and further away from what utilitarian military hardware should be (and was before the Dark Imperium fluff atrocity).
A suppressive weapon would be a heavy bolter, assault cannon or explosive weapon like grenades/missiles. Since you’re not trying to kill but keep someone from engaging.
You do know you’re armchairing Jes freakin’ Goodwin, right? We’re lucky to have someone exploring initially-unexpected silhouettes that make perfect 40k sense the longer you look at them rather than the most obvious weaponry/suit styles you’re advocating for.
Auto Grenade launcher fits the bill. I loved the mk19 on my hmmwv, nasty when loaded w HE. A 40k equiv (that all Astartes can take) would kickass!
The 2 times Jes has been on Voxcast, he has really made me like the primaris concept more. I'm excited to see what else is coming down the pipe.
still trying to figure out how I'll use Infiltrators.
Suppressors are one of the best executions of high mobility firepower that's also man portable. It'll be interesting to see what the other gun is going to be.
Eliminators are cool, but I really hope there is a prone sniper.
Azazelx wrote: You can see he's been embiggened by the preview shots. I wouldn't be surprised to see him closer to Guilliman than Calgar at this point.
If he’s been “embiggened” then I hope his stats allow him to make a “cromulent” performance on the gaming table
I think this box might have head options. We know for sure that the Eliminators will have two different options for the non-Sergeant Marines. It is entirely possible other models will have choices as well.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I think this box might have head options. We know for sure that the Eliminators will have two different options for the non-Sergeant Marines. It is entirely possible other models will have choices as well.
GW's gotten pretty good about head options of late, I think they're listening to people who say they like a helmeted option.MOST minis have come with a helmeted option.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I think this box might have head options. We know for sure that the Eliminators will have two different options for the non-Sergeant Marines. It is entirely possible other models will have choices as well.
GW's gotten pretty good about head options of late, I think they're listening to people who say they like a helmeted option.MOST minis have come with a helmeted option.
From the way it looks, the Sergeants don't have helmets or the choice for one, which sucks, and there is the one Infiltrator that has the half-mask that has a hand molded on his head. The Lieutenant model appears to only get one head choice too.
Personally, I am probably going to leave the models without helmets headless until the regular kits hit so I can put full helmets on them. About the only one that I don't hate that is helmetless is the Infiltrator Sergeant. Perhaps he has a helmet on his belt that I can cut away and put on his head though. If GW was truly a bunch of Bros, they would have packed in extra heads for all of the Phobos dudes with partial or no helmets.
I personally heavily dislike the idea that Abaddon is primarch-like. Sure he was an exceptional fighter, like Sigismund or Sevatar, but Primarch are god like being born from technology and warp. Plus there were marine that looked like their primarch in all legion, that's just one of the after effect of the space marine transformation. There's even Little Horus that is described as a litteral copy of Horus, just smaller.
Abaddon used to play the role of the remnant of what was, the guy that was there when the empire suffered a mortal blow and that accompany its corpse to the after life by coming back every tuesday to make everyone remember what's in the shadow. Its this long death of the empire that's the essence of Grimdark. In this setting Abaddon doesn't need to be primarch like because the empire is already dying. He is an inferior and slightly decadent copy of the great enemy that was - the reason why he was "failbaddon".
With Roboute there's a new hope, so we need a new killer of hope to replay the end of the empire. That's why he is redesigned as a primarch like being.
Obscuration discipline is great and well balanced - I don't see spells necessarily better. I wonder : if they are mini codexes, will there be any stratagem available to the two army ?
casvalremdeikun wrote: I think this box might have head options. We know for sure that the Eliminators will have two different options for the non-Sergeant Marines. It is entirely possible other models will have choices as well.
GW's gotten pretty good about head options of late, I think they're listening to people who say they like a helmeted option.MOST minis have come with a helmeted option.
From the way it looks, the Sergeants don't have helmets or the choice for one, which sucks, and there is the one Infiltrator that has the half-mask that has a hand molded on his head. The Lieutenant model appears to only get one head choice too.
Personally, I am probably going to leave the models without helmets headless until the regular kits hit so I can put full helmets on them. About the only one that I don't hate that is helmetless is the Infiltrator Sergeant. Perhaps he has a helmet on his belt that I can cut away and put on his head though. If GW was truly a bunch of Bros, they would have packed in extra heads for all of the Phobos dudes with partial or no helmets.
with any luck we'll be able to fit heads on anyway, I itted a few MK 3 heads onto my dark imperium intercessors. looked pretty nice.
If we can ever grow the size of eliminators and suppressors beyond three I can see some really solid synergy with the new powers. Giving a unit full rerolls to hit alongside never being targeted would be really good. Their offensive powers are also pretty good with being able to reliably slap two mortal wounds on a character up to 18" away. Stack on that of that the new snipers, assassins and captain there is a lot of character hate on the table for primaris marines.
I think the libby will be really solid on his own merits even without a lot of phobos units around.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I think this box might have head options. We know for sure that the Eliminators will have two different options for the non-Sergeant Marines. It is entirely possible other models will have choices as well.
GW's gotten pretty good about head options of late, I think they're listening to people who say they like a helmeted option.MOST minis have come with a helmeted option.
From the way it looks, the Sergeants don't have helmets or the choice for one, which sucks, and there is the one Infiltrator that has the half-mask that has a hand molded on his head. The Lieutenant model appears to only get one head choice too.
Personally, I am probably going to leave the models without helmets headless until the regular kits hit so I can put full helmets on them. About the only one that I don't hate that is helmetless is the Infiltrator Sergeant. Perhaps he has a helmet on his belt that I can cut away and put on his head though. If GW was truly a bunch of Bros, they would have packed in extra heads for all of the Phobos dudes with partial or no helmets.
with any luck we'll be able to fit heads on anyway, I itted a few MK 3 heads onto my dark imperium intercessors. looked pretty nice.
I have tons of Mk X heads, but the Phobos aesthetic is different and I would like it to be consistent. I might stick the Imperial Fists Upgrade Sprue helmet on the Suppressor Sergeant though since it still looks a little like the others. I might stick something on the flat part just to make it look the part a little better. The Infiltrators are a tougher nut to crack since their helmets look more unique.
You know, Mind Raid pairs incredibly well with the Vindicare Assassin. You toss Mind Raid at the intended target, then fire away with the Vindicare, hopefully getting Headshot to trigger. You then use the Priority Threat Neutralized and get even more CP.
How big a unit of suppressors can be? Get a hellhuge unit of 9-10 suppressors or even more if possible, just deploy them normally, cast shrouding on them. Murder everything within 48" while being immune to shooting.
WhiteDog wrote: I personally heavily dislike the idea that Abaddon is primarch-like. Sure he was an exceptional fighter, like Sigismund or Sevatar, but Primarch are god like being born from technology and warp. Plus there were marine that looked like their primarch in all legion, that's just one of the after effect of the space marine transformation. There's even Little Horus that is described as a litteral copy of Horus, just smaller.
Abaddon used to play the role of the remnant of what was, the guy that was there when the empire suffered a mortal blow and that accompany its corpse to the after life by coming back every tuesday to make everyone remember what's in the shadow. Its this long death of the empire that's the essence of Grimdark. In this setting Abaddon doesn't need to be primarch like because the empire is already dying. He is an inferior and slightly decadent copy of the great enemy that was - the reason why he was "failbaddon".
With Roboute there's a new hope, so we need a new killer of hope to replay the end of the empire. That's why he is redesigned as a primarch like being.
Obscuration discipline is great and well balanced - I don't see spells necessarily better. I wonder : if they are mini codexes, will there be any stratagem available to the two army ?
Abaddon was introduced in 2nd edition and him being rumoured to be a clone of Horus has been part of his lore since then. Pretty sure it's in his description in the 2nd ed chaos codex.
Horus rising was written by Abnett who, lets be honest, doesn't have the strongest grip on the lore. Now bear in mind Abaddon has always been rumoured to be a clone of Horus. Then Abnett introduces him alongside a Lunar Wolf taller than him (so logically taller than Horus) and "little Horus" who looks more like Horus than anyone, presumably Including Horus himself.
In short, Abnett didn't read Abaddons background before writing about him.
topaxygouroun i wrote: How big a unit of suppressors can be? Get a hellhuge unit of 9-10 suppressors or even more if possible, just deploy them normally, cast shrouding on them. Murder everything within 48" while being immune to shooting.
Suppressors strangely do not have the phobos keyword so they aren't a valid target.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: If we can ever grow the size of eliminators and suppressors beyond three I can see some really solid synergy with the new powers. Giving a unit full rerolls to hit alongside never being targeted would be really good. Their offensive powers are also pretty good with being able to reliably slap two mortal wounds on a character up to 18" away. Stack on that of that the new snipers, assassins and captain there is a lot of character hate on the table for primaris marines.
I think the libby will be really solid on his own merits even without a lot of phobos units around.
I didn't think Suppressors had the Phobos keyword?
topaxygouroun i wrote: How big a unit of suppressors can be? Get a hellhuge unit of 9-10 suppressors or even more if possible, just deploy them normally, cast shrouding on them. Murder everything within 48" while being immune to shooting.
Suppressors strangely do not have the phobos keyword so they aren't a valid target.
I also don't think it's that strange. They're drop troops with autocannon. Hardly the sneakiest loadouts you can get.
The issue with - 1 to hit shenanigans is they stack easily with Ravenguard. Not fun to play against.
Virules wrote: However, reading the ADB books, it seems to me that Abbadon wasn't just huge, he was unusually similar to Horus in size and resemblance to the point where he could be almost be a Primarch.
The key part of that sentence is "ADB". He always inflates certain characters beyond reasonable limits (like Khayon and that ridiculous sword of his).
He also has unrivaled access to published and unpublished background material directly from the people who have determined the entire setting. Not to mention that his books are referenced as core canon more and more frequently by GW.
And Abaddon being the "spitting image of Horus" to the point where people thought he was a clone has LOOOONG been a part of the lore
Pity no one gave the memo to sculptor of 30K Abby. Put him next to Horus and tell me with a straight face they are similar.
Or you know, the guy who wrote Gathering Storm. Particularly the scene where standing Celestine stabs Armless in the back on chest level, which only makes sense if he is terminator sized. If he was primarch sized, he would be stabbed by her in more ways than obvious one
topaxygouroun i wrote: How big a unit of suppressors can be? Get a hellhuge unit of 9-10 suppressors or even more if possible, just deploy them normally, cast shrouding on them. Murder everything within 48" while being immune to shooting.
I'd say we could take Dark Imperium as a base to compare.
Inceptors came in a unit of 3 in the box; their codex version can go up to 6.
Hellblasters and Intercessors came in units of 5 each in the box; their codex version can go up to 10 each.
That means I'd bet on Supressors going up to 6 max, as Eliminators; Infiltrators up to 10 (but they already do that in the box anyway)
Abaddon was introduced in 2nd edition and him being rumoured to be a clone of Horus has been part of his lore since then. Pretty sure it's in his description in the 2nd ed chaos codex.
As I actually have my 2nd ed books out I can confirm:
Codex Chaos 2nd edition page 98:
He worshipped the Warmaster like a god and Horus treated him as his most favoured son, indeed some whispered that he was in truth the clone-son of the Primarch himself, product of the earliest Primogenitor experimentation.
Suppressors strangely do not have the phobos keyword so they aren't a valid target.
It's not that strange... They're not wearing Phobos armour.
Hopefully the keyword gets added to Reivers. They should also synergise with the Vanguard Marines. Reivers are even the first Marines who touched down in the strike force attacking Nemendghast...
Huh. Just saw the sprues. All starter set, except the master of possession, captain, and librarian, who are individual sprues for clampacking later. Bet the Blackstone Fortress CSM character will come out as a clampack with the CSM release.
Well, we know for a fact Abaddon is not a straight clone of Horus as he was a Terran Marine prior to Horus even being found. But he is functionally a clone of him as he is one of, if not the oldest Space Marines alive, even taking warp-fethery into account. Pretty much all of Abaddon's body has been overwritten by Horus at this point.
Suppressors strangely do not have the phobos keyword so they aren't a valid target.
It's not that strange... They're not wearing Phobos armour.
Hopefully the keyword gets added to Reivers. They should also synergise with the Vanguard Marines. Reivers are even the first Marines who touched down in the strike force attacking Nemendghast...
If this happens, deep strike in a big squad of reivers, have temporal corridor cast on them... The grenade launcher should then be in range to disrupt overwatch... Now just need a way to let the reivers charge after advancing...
It won't be that potent a unit but it would be fun.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
casvalremdeikun wrote: Well, we know for a fact Abaddon is not a straight clone of Horus as he was a Terran Marine prior to Horus even being found. But he is functionally a clone of him as he is one of, if not the oldest Space Marines alive, even taking warp-fethery into account. Pretty much all of Abaddon's body has been overwritten by Horus at this point.
Well, as far as I am aware, we don't know when the emperor started making marines, he could have already started before the primarchs were dispersed by chaos, in which case abaddon could have had some extras that made him closer to a clone than the standard marine.
Crimson wrote: Abaddon being similar to Horus has always been part of his fluff; granted, it made more sense before Primarchs were these bizarre giant freaks they're today.
True. The whole thing going from "Primarchs being viewed as something akin to gods thanks to 10.000 years of propaganda" and all those accounts suddenly being literal is just jarring.
Primarchs being the genetic blueprint Marines are made from should be (and were) ... well ... Marines (and not even Primaris Marines). Primarchs should basically have a Tac Marine statline with a bit more LD and some snazzy gear.
Old school fluff, Horus had to step in to help the Emperor fight off an Ork and they both barely came out alive. Which makes sense. The Emperor, without psychics, is a human with probably a guardsman statline and Horus, well, he's a Marine.
Suppressors strangely do not have the phobos keyword so they aren't a valid target.
It's not that strange... They're not wearing Phobos armour.
Hopefully the keyword gets added to Reivers. They should also synergise with the Vanguard Marines. Reivers are even the first Marines who touched down in the strike force attacking Nemendghast...
Yeah, I hope Vanguard book has updated sheet for them too. Would solve so many of their issues at a stroke given even remotely competent writer.
Codex Chaos 2nd edition page 98:
He worshipped the Warmaster like a god and Horus treated him as his most favoured son, indeed some whispered that he was in truth the clone-son of the Primarch himself, product of the earliest Primogenitor experimentation.
It doesn't mention size though, just looks. Also, now that we know HH timeline, it simply doesn't make any sense, Abby was a (Cthonian born) marine long before EC were even really existed as a legion...
WhiteDog wrote: I personally heavily dislike the idea that Abaddon is primarch-like. Sure he was an exceptional fighter, like Sigismund or Sevatar, but Primarch are god like being born from technology and warp. Plus there were marine that looked like their primarch in all legion, that's just one of the after effect of the space marine transformation. There's even Little Horus that is described as a litteral copy of Horus, just smaller.
Abaddon used to play the role of the remnant of what was, the guy that was there when the empire suffered a mortal blow and that accompany its corpse to the after life by coming back every tuesday to make everyone remember what's in the shadow. Its this long death of the empire that's the essence of Grimdark. In this setting Abaddon doesn't need to be primarch like because the empire is already dying. He is an inferior and slightly decadent copy of the great enemy that was - the reason why he was "failbaddon".
With Roboute there's a new hope, so we need a new killer of hope to replay the end of the empire. That's why he is redesigned as a primarch like being.
I don't really agree. 'Failbaddon' was GW's poor storytelling, not anything related to the character.
Abaddon, if anything, is superior to Horus. He lacks the overly large flaws that made the primarch the ultimate vessel and slave to chaos. Abaddon has been there for the long game, not the easy desperation play.
While the current state of the setting is a little over the top, Abaddon as a master of chaos rather than another pawn is a far more interesting story. It allows for both successes and failures on a smaller scale that keeps the setting going, rather than ultimate victory for either side.
WhiteDog wrote: I personally heavily dislike the idea that Abaddon is primarch-like. Sure he was an exceptional fighter, like Sigismund or Sevatar, but Primarch are god like being born from technology and warp. Plus there were marine that looked like their primarch in all legion, that's just one of the after effect of the space marine transformation. There's even Little Horus that is described as a litteral copy of Horus, just smaller. Abaddon used to play the role of the remnant of what was, the guy that was there when the empire suffered a mortal blow and that accompany its corpse to the after life by coming back every tuesday to make everyone remember what's in the shadow. Its this long death of the empire that's the essence of Grimdark. In this setting Abaddon doesn't need to be primarch like because the empire is already dying. He is an inferior and slightly decadent copy of the great enemy that was - the reason why he was "failbaddon". With Roboute there's a new hope, so we need a new killer of hope to replay the end of the empire. That's why he is redesigned as a primarch like being.
Obscuration discipline is great and well balanced - I don't see spells necessarily better. I wonder : if they are mini codexes, will there be any stratagem available to the two army ?
Abaddon was introduced in 2nd edition and him being rumoured to be a clone of Horus has been part of his lore since then. Pretty sure it's in his description in the 2nd ed chaos codex.
Horus rising was written by Abnett who, lets be honest, doesn't have the strongest grip on the lore. Now bear in mind Abaddon has always been rumoured to be a clone of Horus. Then Abnett introduces him alongside a Lunar Wolf taller than him (so logically taller than Horus) and "little Horus" who looks more like Horus than anyone, presumably Including Horus himself.
In short, Abnett didn't read Abaddons background before writing about him.
Basically you're putting aside a book because you dislike its lore. Abaddon being a clone of Horus was just a rumor (that perfectly enlight what I was saying - Abaddon is a remembrance of the enemy that was) everything else we have on him clearly indicate he is inferior to Primarch. As for Little Horus, he is but an extreme exemple of the fact that there are clear similarities between space marines and their primogenitor - in physique and character.
WhiteDog wrote: I personally heavily dislike the idea that Abaddon is primarch-like. Sure he was an exceptional fighter, like Sigismund or Sevatar, but Primarch are god like being born from technology and warp. Plus there were marine that looked like their primarch in all legion, that's just one of the after effect of the space marine transformation. There's even Little Horus that is described as a litteral copy of Horus, just smaller. Abaddon used to play the role of the remnant of what was, the guy that was there when the empire suffered a mortal blow and that accompany its corpse to the after life by coming back every tuesday to make everyone remember what's in the shadow. Its this long death of the empire that's the essence of Grimdark. In this setting Abaddon doesn't need to be primarch like because the empire is already dying. He is an inferior and slightly decadent copy of the great enemy that was - the reason why he was "failbaddon". With Roboute there's a new hope, so we need a new killer of hope to replay the end of the empire. That's why he is redesigned as a primarch like being.
I don't really agree. 'Failbaddon' was GW's poor storytelling, not anything related to the character.
Abaddon, if anything, is superior to Horus. He lacks the overly large flaws that made the primarch the ultimate vessel and slave to chaos. Abaddon has been there for the long game, not the easy desperation play.
While the current state of the setting is a little over the top, Abaddon as a master of chaos rather than another pawn is a far more interesting story. It allows for both successes and failures on a smaller scale that keeps the setting going, rather than ultimate victory for either side.
He was so superior he failed a dozen crusade never even approaching Terra, and couldn't let his papa die so he decided to give him to a random tribe of savages passing by... The 2nd and 3rd ed codexes are full of prophecies and myth of the end of times, rhana dandra, wolf time and whatnot. Abaddon is never associated with that in the way that Horus was associated with the end of the imperium in 30K. Now granted I do not have chaos space marine codexes since I never played the army. Well let's settle and say we all have our own appreciation of the fluff.
WhiteDog wrote: I personally heavily dislike the idea that Abaddon is primarch-like. Sure he was an exceptional fighter, like Sigismund or Sevatar, but Primarch are god like being born from technology and warp. Plus there were marine that looked like their primarch in all legion, that's just one of the after effect of the space marine transformation. There's even Little Horus that is described as a litteral copy of Horus, just smaller.
Abaddon used to play the role of the remnant of what was, the guy that was there when the empire suffered a mortal blow and that accompany its corpse to the after life by coming back every tuesday to make everyone remember what's in the shadow. Its this long death of the empire that's the essence of Grimdark. In this setting Abaddon doesn't need to be primarch like because the empire is already dying. He is an inferior and slightly decadent copy of the great enemy that was - the reason why he was "failbaddon".
With Roboute there's a new hope, so we need a new killer of hope to replay the end of the empire. That's why he is redesigned as a primarch like being.
Obscuration discipline is great and well balanced - I don't see spells necessarily better. I wonder : if they are mini codexes, will there be any stratagem available to the two army ?
Abaddon was introduced in 2nd edition and him being rumoured to be a clone of Horus has been part of his lore since then. Pretty sure it's in his description in the 2nd ed chaos codex.
Horus rising was written by Abnett who, lets be honest, doesn't have the strongest grip on the lore. Now bear in mind Abaddon has always been rumoured to be a clone of Horus. Then Abnett introduces him alongside a Lunar Wolf taller than him (so logically taller than Horus) and "little Horus" who looks more like Horus than anyone, presumably Including Horus himself.
In short, Abnett didn't read Abaddons background before writing about him.
Basically you're putting aside a book because you dislike its lore. Abaddon being a clone of Horus was just a rumor (that perfectly enlight what I was saying - Abaddon is a remembrance of the enemy that was) everything else we have on him clearly indicate he is inferior to Primarch.
As for Little Horus, he is but an extreme exemple of the fact that there are clear similarities between space marines and their primogenitor - in physique and character.
No, that's what you are doing. You say so yourself. I'm putting aside a book because it contradicts everything else written about the character. Abnett isn't mr. 40k. He's a comic book writer that plays fast and loose with the 40k background. Sometimes this is great, like with his 30k SW and sometimes it's just wrong, as with Abaddon. This lore isn't documented history or created in a vacuum. Primarchs got a massive power boost and Abnett is a part timer that got the details of one character wrong. ADB's series about Abaddon says he's as big as Horus. Surely the guys own novels trump his cameos in the heresy.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Huh. Just saw the sprues. All starter set, except the master of possession, captain, and librarian, who are individual sprues for clampacking later. Bet the Blackstone Fortress CSM character will come out as a clampack with the CSM release.
How mixed are the Chaos and Primaris stuff? Are they are seperate sprues for easy box splitting?
WhiteDog wrote: I personally heavily dislike the idea that Abaddon is primarch-like. Sure he was an exceptional fighter, like Sigismund or Sevatar, but Primarch are god like being born from technology and warp. Plus there were marine that looked like their primarch in all legion, that's just one of the after effect of the space marine transformation. There's even Little Horus that is described as a litteral copy of Horus, just smaller. Abaddon used to play the role of the remnant of what was, the guy that was there when the empire suffered a mortal blow and that accompany its corpse to the after life by coming back every tuesday to make everyone remember what's in the shadow. Its this long death of the empire that's the essence of Grimdark. In this setting Abaddon doesn't need to be primarch like because the empire is already dying. He is an inferior and slightly decadent copy of the great enemy that was - the reason why he was "failbaddon". With Roboute there's a new hope, so we need a new killer of hope to replay the end of the empire. That's why he is redesigned as a primarch like being.
Obscuration discipline is great and well balanced - I don't see spells necessarily better. I wonder : if they are mini codexes, will there be any stratagem available to the two army ?
Abaddon was introduced in 2nd edition and him being rumoured to be a clone of Horus has been part of his lore since then. Pretty sure it's in his description in the 2nd ed chaos codex.
Horus rising was written by Abnett who, lets be honest, doesn't have the strongest grip on the lore. Now bear in mind Abaddon has always been rumoured to be a clone of Horus. Then Abnett introduces him alongside a Lunar Wolf taller than him (so logically taller than Horus) and "little Horus" who looks more like Horus than anyone, presumably Including Horus himself.
In short, Abnett didn't read Abaddons background before writing about him.
Basically you're putting aside a book because you dislike its lore. Abaddon being a clone of Horus was just a rumor (that perfectly enlight what I was saying - Abaddon is a remembrance of the enemy that was) everything else we have on him clearly indicate he is inferior to Primarch. As for Little Horus, he is but an extreme exemple of the fact that there are clear similarities between space marines and their primogenitor - in physique and character.
No, that's what you are doing. You say so yourself. I'm putting aside a book because it contradicts everything else written about the character. Abnett isn't mr. 40k. He's a comic book writer that plays fast and loose with the 40k background. Sometimes this is great, like with his 30k SW and sometimes it's just wrong, as with Abaddon. This lore isn't documented history or created in a vacuum. Primarchs got a massive power boost and Abnett is a part timer that got the details of one character wrong. ADB's series about Abaddon says he's as big as Horus. Surely the guys own novels trump his cameos in the heresy.
Are you denying the fact that there are member of all legion that heavily ressemble their primarch ? Or are you saying that only Abnett says that ?
MajorWesJanson wrote: Huh. Just saw the sprues. All starter set, except the master of possession, captain, and librarian, who are individual sprues for clampacking later. Bet the Blackstone Fortress CSM character will come out as a clampack with the CSM release.
How mixed are the Chaos and Primaris stuff? Are they are seperate sprues for easy box splitting?
Looks like 2 unique CSM sprues, 1 unique and 1 pair of duplicated SM sprues, and 3 clampack characters. No mixing of factions.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: If this happens, deep strike in a big squad of reivers, have temporal corridor cast on them... The grenade launcher should then be in range to disrupt overwatch... Now just need a way to let the reivers charge after advancing...
It won't be that potent a unit but it would be fun.
Units that arrive via reinforcements cannot move again that turn (other than charge, pile-in/consolidate), even via psychic powers such as temporal corridor. This is covered in the main rule book on page 177 and clarified in the rule book FAQ on page 5;
"The rules for reinforcements say that when a unit is set up on the battlefield as reinforcements, it cannot move or Advance further that turn, but can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.).
Q: Can such a unit make a charge move? Can it pile in and consolidate?
A: Yes to both questions – the unit can declare a charge and make a charge move, and if it is chosen to fight, it can pile in and consolidate.
Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex: Tyranids, etc.?
A: No."
Hmmm so calling it now next wave of Primaris are going to be a special pysker heavy, antipsyker and deamon force.
Primaris are roughly following the Sigmarines chamber style organisation.
Warhammer Community wrote:Suppressors specialise in rapid responses to heavily armoured enemy threats, entering battle either by dropping directly into the action via grav chutes or in long, bounding leaps with their jump packs.
So I guess the Supressors are posed as if they has jump packs because they they can have jump packs, they just don't, for whatever reason.
lol remember when marines coveted older marks of armour because they were more reliable an simply better than newly produced stuff as mars had forgotten the old ways of producing them, prized possessions passed down as relics... when the lore was good. when marines were gothic grim dark superhuman knights and not jacked up solider dudes from call of duty black ops 40,000.
Love it, and great to see the other chapters represented there. Now I'm just going to hope for chapter upgrade sprues for Vanguard/Reivers, with those nifty shoulderpads they have. Normal shoulderpads work fine on Reivers, but the Phobos shoulder pad does look quite sleek.
The "firehose" marines I'm less keen on, but they may still be salvageable. Loving all the dudes in Phobos armour, anyway.
Each to their own - I love them on account of how much I'm reminded of certain mobile suits by them.
My only gripe with the vanguard stuff is that all the tacticool goodies marines are getting lately pull their aesthetic a bit in a different direction and I think GW needs to take care not to make them feel too dissimilar to "space marines". That and they need to stop naming new stuff using words for existing units in the same army.
I like the Supressors, but I want to see the back of one. They do look like they’re lacking much upper body thrust, with the only visible jets in their legs.
It's a shame that the CSM are snap fit. After having snap fit troops in DV we're still waiting on a proper box of CSM to be released.
Obliterators are too fleshy. Remind me too much of the bad aspects of the Chaos Dread.
Greater Possessed are an interesting idea, kind of like how you could have a Daemon Prince in 3rd that wasn't quite fully transformed.
Primaris are interesting but I really dislike how years of cool armour marks are being flushed down the toilet. Also, no matter how many times I look at these Primaris shins I just think they look awful.
I'd really advise watching the Goodwin interview from yesterday.
The Vanguard are apparently as steeped in a cultish tradition as anyone else, just...different ways of expressing it. The different pouches on the Eliminators for their ammo types are next to a sigil of the Emperor, and as they pull a round they touch it to his face---that was the example that Goodwin gave yesterday.
Gael Knight wrote: It's a shame that the CSM are snap fit. After having snap fit troops in DV we're still waiting on a proper box of CSM to be released.
Give it about 90mins and we’re likely to see one a nnounced!
Warhammer Community wrote:Suppressors specialise in rapid responses to heavily armoured enemy threats, entering battle either by dropping directly into the action via grav chutes or in long, bounding leaps with their jump packs.
So I guess the Supressors are posed as if they has jump packs because they they can have jump packs, they just don't, for whatever reason.
I thought quadruple thruster on back is supposed to be 'quiet' jump pack as opposed to standard, horrendously loud jet pack ones, no?
Latro_ wrote: lol remember when marines coveted older marks of armour because they were more reliable an simply better than newly produced stuff as mars had forgotten the old ways of producing them, prized possessions passed down as relics... when the lore was good. when marines were gothic grim dark superhuman knights and not jacked up solider dudes from call of duty black ops 40,000.
You mean, when grimdumb lore saw no contradiction between "this guy has armour 10.000 years old" and stating plasma, las and melta weaponry outright vaporizes it with ease (plus having standard apothecary seed extraction procedure being breaking chest plate in two)? When I was young, I always wondered how the frak anyone had armour 10 years old if it was as durable as used napkin, never mind 10 millennia old.
Also, I don't know if you time-traveled from 1999, but that ship sailed long ago. HH books, both by BL and FW, outright state VII is one of the best marks ever made, with VIII being best (and most coveted, given only to officers) before X appeared. And reliable? When that was? Everything before VI was described as unreliable or exceptionally demanding in maintenance junk pretty much from the start...
Azazelx wrote: You can see he's been embiggened by the preview shots. I wouldn't be surprised to see him closer to Guilliman than Calgar at this point.
According to french wargame studio he is Gulliman like height wise and stat wise.
By the 4 Gods, please let it be so
As far as I was aware he could already nut Calagar but things aside, I wouldn't be took keen on a gigantic model the size of Gulliman.
Tabletop wise Abaddon is almost bang on as far as I was aware, he suffers more from the army he leads. There are psychic buffs that can make him a monster and the khorne stratagem which pretty much means he's going to win almost any combat he's in considering the guy has a maximum threat with that of 24 attacks dealing 82 damage... I'd personally only make three changes.
Give the talon a flat 3 damage, give him the ability to pick between each one of the god's blessings each turn (+1 Invul, disgustingly resilient, +1S/A and strikes first) and have Drach'nyen do something a bit more dangerous if it's going to have that 'roll a 1 and suffer' effect. I've always been a fan of it just flatly ignoring armour saves and auto wounding or doing mortal wounds rather than D3 damage. This is considering this is supposedly a blade with a lot of history that 'rends reality apart' - not too good at that if a bit of power armour gets in the way and it has a 1 in 6 chance of hurting you instead.
Gael Knight wrote: It's a shame that the CSM are snap fit. After having snap fit troops in DV we're still waiting on a proper box of CSM to be released.
I think we've already seen a proper box at the very least teased. The "boar tusk" helmet marine from one of the teaser trailers has a different helmet and bolter than any of the other CSM we've seen in the boxset
Latro_ wrote: anyone else find it a bit odd there is an entire new set of psy powers the majority of which only effect a certain type of marines in Armour.
just seems a lot of bloat for a small subset of models. Feels out of place no?
Stupid? Sure. Odd? In the edition of bespoke rules? Nope, doesn't strike me as odd at all.
But then the biggest irritation with Primaris rules I see is with the very arbitrary limitations that make no sense at all to us, the uninitiated who can only guess what's going on in the ivory tower. So what's one more such limitation?
If you wanted to put a positive spin to it, fewer rules interactions should make the powers easier to balance. If you believe that's a goal of GW, and something they are capable of.
Gael Knight wrote: Primaris are interesting but I really dislike how years of cool armour marks are being flushed down the toilet. Also, no matter how many times I look at these Primaris shins I just think they look awful.
If GW's designers had even the tiniest bit of taste, they would have just embiggened Mk.III and called it a day. Job done.
Irbis wrote: I thought quadruple thruster on back is supposed to be 'quiet' jump pack as opposed to standard, horrendously loud jet pack ones, no?
Well, I was under the assumption that those were part of the whole 'parachute without a parachute' thing they have going on. And two of those thrusters are normal backpack vents. I really don't see how they could count as jetpacks when Inceptors have those huge engine jet harnesses.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm annoyed with the Librarian buffs only affecting everyone else in the box. Yeah, because it would've been SOOOOOO unbalanced otherwise.
The more generic powers I can see some use for though.
Shrouding a 10 man of helblasters?
Corridor on something that can advance and charge?
It is some sort of anti-grav based jump pack instead of being fully thruster based so that it is quieter. At least that is what I think they were going for...
I really really like them, but then I have kind of a thing for space marines with Autocannons.
Oddly specific fetish since no loyalty marine in 40k has wielded an autocannon!
*cough*
Spoiler:
"No loyal marine has ever wielded [Weapon_Name_Here]" is a dangerous game. I have a legitmate one-part Rogue Trader era metal marine with a Shuriken catapult on my desk, so all bets are off.
Horus ran for Warmaster on a very conservative "keep your autocannons" platform, giving him broad support from rank and file legionnaires in many armies of the Crusade.
Irbis wrote: I thought quadruple thruster on back is supposed to be 'quiet' jump pack as opposed to standard, horrendously loud jet pack ones, no?
Well, I was under the assumption that those were part of the whole 'parachute without a parachute' thing they have going on. And two of those thrusters are normal backpack vents. I really don't see how they could count as jetpacks when Inceptors have those huge engine jet harnesses.
I'm not sure it says anything about suppressors being quiet, does it? If so, an autocannon is not the obvious weapon for them to use!
The psychic powers seem good. One use of the shrouding power appears to be to avoid overwatch. You can park any unit you want 1” away from the target of your charge, cast shrouding on a unit 2” away, and charge that unit in safely. Then everyone else can charge if they want.
I think tenebrous curse and mind raid are my favourites. Bonus CPs are always great to have, especially if these guys bring some stratagems that are worth using. And tenebrous curse makes charging these guys even harder to achieve.
"No loyal marine has ever wielded [Weapon_Name_Here]" is a dangerous game. I have a legitmate one-part Rogue Trader era metal marine with a Shuriken catapult on my desk, so all bets are off.
One with the Lasguns crack me up. If those Marine's had read the Inquisitor rulebook, they'd have settled for flinging stones instead. They'd do more damage. Because Inquisitor, RAW, was a very, very odd game! (Marine genuinely did more damage throwing unprimed Krak Grenades than priming them)
Irbis wrote: I thought quadruple thruster on back is supposed to be 'quiet' jump pack as opposed to standard, horrendously loud jet pack ones, no?
Well, I was under the assumption that those were part of the whole 'parachute without a parachute' thing they have going on. And two of those thrusters are normal backpack vents. I really don't see how they could count as jetpacks when Inceptors have those huge engine jet harnesses.
No, vents are the 4 square things on the bottom. Round things are zero-g thrusters, there is even early art with marines and IG flying with them:
As for how this works, dunno. Maybe anti-grav plates make marine light enough the four thrusters can lift him for a few seconds?
And Inceptors are not a good counterexample as they are supposed to be able to drop from orbit without help. I'd imagine arresting fall from orbiting cruiser requires rather more energy than jumping from a plane...
... I sold all my old Chaos Space Marines. I am SO BACK into this army with this release! Also the spoiled Chaos Havoc has me drooling, I love me my mini guns!
Look next to Abaddon. You can see the model with the candle backback thats holding the flaming book. I'd post a closer pic, but I have no idea how to post photos on Dakkadakka from my phone.
topaxygouroun i wrote: We've seen the Phobos discipline. Any leaks on the chaos one? (Malefic).
Havn't seen it but it would be nearly impossible to be more gakky than the space marine powers....Have you ever seen a set of psychic powers that can only be used on units in a particular type of armor? I'm not even buying this POS anymore.
GaroRobe wrote: I feel like he should have an older marine helmet on his spikes. Like, he's never faced a worthy marine until the primaris lieutenants came out?
He has one on right spike. You can tell by oldmarine mania of not wearing helmets
Look next to Abaddon. You can see the model with the candle backback thats holding the flaming book. I'd post a closer pic, but I have no idea how to post photos on Dakkadakka from my phone.
TFW this model representing one particular guy has more optional aesthetic components than the models for the crazy anarchic creations of ork big meks.
I approve. He looks suitably epic and Guillieman (sp?) sized. Unlike with Roubette, the extra chaotic filigree on the armor is appropriate and not gaudy. I might end up getting him despite my lack of interest in playing 40k at the moment (beyond just maybe a Kill Team game). I wonder how big the model is compared with the Forgeworld Horus....
First things first, a Terminator with actual anatomy. Yay!
All around good new take with only two points of criticism. I liked the classic trophy rack better. That was one of the coolest things Chaos Terminators had an Abaddon wore it well. This one is kind of dull. The other thing is Drach'nyen. Might just be the paintjob which I totally dislike, by the way, but the faces look a little lost compared to the original model. I think they had more density to them and made that part of the sword their own little playground, whereas the new sword has a couple of faces floating in empty space.
Head options are fun. Though to be honest I didn't expect a respirator head for him. I guess it was necessary since nobody cared who he was before he put on the mask...
Also nice to make the cloak optional.
Overall a great new model and something that was worth waiting for. Time to start speculating how much that model will cost me and if I need it in the foreseeable future (which, honestly, depends more on whether GW releases a cool new Terminator kit than Abaddon himself).
Xenomancers wrote: Abaddon is primarch size....but will he have Primarch stats?
Almost Primarch sized. Just like Chaos Marines are only almost Primaris sized. It's their allotted purpose. An army of almosts that make the heroes shine.
Abaddon is utterly amazing. Stunning, even. As is the havoc. I sacrifice my wallet unto thee, new CSM release.
Basically the only nitpick I have is that I'd prefer a classic dual trophy rack instead of the wide one facing the front - for my Lord of Contagion I cut his similar styled icon off - but I guess not having rows of spikes along the back helps with the removable cloak. The sculpted faces are not very scary looking, same as Archaon's sword. And the havoc has a weird helmet. All those things are easy fixes and I'm willing to shell out for Abby, even though I had Word Bearers and plan to redo them, never Black Legion.
PS: Look at those legs! And the rest of the huge Termi armour! I wish regular (C)SM Termis were made almost as big, looks proper tactical dreadnought instead of a kid next to the Primaris. Why couldn't Typhus be this amazing?!
Perhaps he's wondering why you'd shoot a Marine, before throwing him from a Thunderhawk.
Brilliant
GeeDub is going to make so much money off of all of us jaded Chaos bastards, kept waiting for over a decade now. I've come and gone from 40k and sworn I don't have another army in me ... but then they buckle a havok into some new armor and hand him a minigun and I'm remortgaging my house
Strong desire to chop Abby down into a standard termi-lord, at least until the proper termi lord redux slams into our faces.
H wrote: I thought only the Word Bearers had Dark Apostles though?
You must have missed the last 3 Editions, where we got a Dark Apostel miniature and all CSM could use it.
Well, yeah, I actually did miss most of 5th, all of 6th and 7th and have only just started back now with 8th.
My "plan" to make a heavy conversion Word Bearers force looks like it will be in good shape now, just need to file all the eye icons off these new bad boys to start things off.
For those wondering about the size compared with FW's Horus, I cut/pasted this together assuming that they're both on 60mm bases. He looks a little bit bigger than the big H once you take away his staircase.
I wonder what the flying bloated helldrake like things are. Look like drop ships that are just make from existing things but twisted with daemon flesh. Also Nid like.
Over the main ship it looks like giant claws are descending from above the clouds. I'm also not convinced the largest ship is a ship. It might be an arm off of some giant daemonic construct.
warboss wrote: For those wondering about the size compared with FW's Horus, I cut/pasted this together assuming that they're both on 60mm bases. He looks a little bit bigger than the big H once you take away his staircase.
Horus was one of the first primarchs. He is a to-scale model with the old plastic and resin Space Marines. Scale creep happened and now he seems too small, even though he was appropriately gigantic compared to the old marine models.
A bit sad we have no insight on the rules. So I have Dark Vengeance, Dark Imperium and soon Shadowspear - is that enough to start a black legion ally deathguard army with Abaddon or Mortarion or both ? I wonder.
It's relatively minor, but it kind of bug me that they made him slightly smaller than a primarch (and we all know that in 40k, size means power). Seems like the new trend with CSM is to make them Loyalist-1
Twice the height of a primaris is not ridiculous ?
He is the chosen champion of the the dark gods. Also, he is not twice as tall. If you put the primaris on top of Abaddon and line up their feet so they are on the same level, Abby is not that much taller.
Good to see at least a couple of non Marines on the cover of the supplement - gives a little hope that the contents are not completly marine focussed......
Abaddon is a gorgeous model! I'm loving the new CSM stuff.
Also, the CSM with rotor cannon is explicitly called out as a Havok, which is nice. HBMC can rejoice
I will be interested to see if there are any other new Havok options. I'd expect heavy bolter, autocannon, plasma cannon, missile launcher, and lascannon for sure. Multi-meltas are a possibility. Maybe some kind of warp flamer option?
zedmeister wrote: Oooo, Rotor Cannons returning with an upgrade? Nice
Not to be a jerk but if CSM get assault cannons on devastators before marines do...I'm gonna be really upset.
Rotor Cannons are a crude pre-heresy technology. They're weaker than Assault Cannons. It'd make sense for Chaos Marines to have 'em though:
Spoiler:
Thousand Sons already got rotor cannons too. Marines should have the advantage of the few minor technological advancement, Chaos Marines the advantage of the remnants of Heresy Era technology they've been able to maintain.
Chaos fled into the Eye of Terror with half the Mechanicum and the factory fleets that supported Horus during the Great Crusade. While I'm sure alot of them went crazy, and more only focus on pleasing the dark gods with producing daemon engines... somewhere in that they should have the ability to continue producing the rotor guns, that are lower caliber and less advance than an Assault cannon.
Loyalists shouldn't. They have access to more advance technologies. Even then when it comes to loyalists, there are plenty of logic traps in the 40k setting when you start talking about what Marines should have access to. For example, the Imperium produces enough storm bolters to put on its IG tanks and shipping crates, every loyalist marine could have a storm bolter. Or that even if each IG regiment only had a single plasma gun, that's enough for every last Loyalist marine to have one.
Xenomancers mindset is why chaos can't have nice things; loyalists shouldn't have everything chaos has nor should chaos have everything loyalist do. They should be distinctive and it should be lore driven. Rotor cannons are both. Yay
Thousand Sons already got rotor cannons too. Marines should have the advantage of the few minor technological advancement, Chaos Marines the advantage of the remnants of Heresy Era technology they've been able to maintain.
Dual belt feed - maybe twice the number of shots? H6 S5 AP1 wouldn't be too shabby, but might make the heavy bolter pointless.
The bit of art they showed, with the Maulerfiend, is already in the current CSM codex, so I wouldn’t necessarily expect the stuff from the background to get models. Top left is just raptors anyway.
Thousand Sons already got rotor cannons too. Marines should have the advantage of the few minor technological advancement, Chaos Marines the advantage of the remnants of Heresy Era technology they've been able to maintain.
Dual belt feed - maybe twice the number of shots? H6 S5 AP1 wouldn't be too shabby, but might make the heavy bolter pointless.
I think, compared to the heavy bolter, it should have a lot more shots, but with lower strength and shorter range. Perhaps 24 inch range, heavy 6, strength 4? It would almost be like have three storm bolters. I could live with that.
You know, Abaddon is quite pleasingly light on the Chaos Iconography.
I mean, he’s definitely not Imperial, obvs. But apart from the belt bit, and the left hand bracer? It’s just baroque brasswork, rather than deviiotionals.
I like Abbadon. Was worried, that he’ll have tooooo much stuff on him, but they managed not to overdo it (I’d take the dry rack off the back though)
Robert Gillman looks horrible, even worse next to the new Abba mini.
I think Abaddon and Robute make a good dark/light reflection of each other. The Talon of Horus and Drach’nyen vs the Emperor’s Sword and Hand of Dominion. The dead Primaris and torch at Abaddon’s feet and the CSM and torch on Guilliman’s base. They just really mirror each other so well.
I'm just going to say that the Chaos stuff really highlights the Godawful design philosophy underpinning the Primaris release. The Chaos stuff is baroque without being a parody of itself. Compare Abaddon to the bearded Lieutenant for goodness sake. Abaddon is LESS busy and more 'realistic' than some 2nd Company junior officer. And they elegance of the Chaos stuff is very impressive. Just compare that rotor cannon Havoc to one of the Suppressors.
Thanatos73 wrote: I think Abaddon and Robute make a good dark/light reflection of each other. The Talon of Horus and Drach’nyen vs the Emperor’s Sword and Hand of Dominion. The dead Primaris and torch at Abaddon’s feet and the CSM and torch on Guilliman’s base. They just really mirror each other so well.
Thousand Sons already got rotor cannons too. Marines should have the advantage of the few minor technological advancement, Chaos Marines the advantage of the remnants of Heresy Era technology they've been able to maintain.
Dual belt feed - maybe twice the number of shots? H6 S5 AP1 wouldn't be too shabby, but might make the heavy bolter pointless.
I think, compared to the heavy bolter, it should have a lot more shots, but with lower strength and shorter range. Perhaps 24 inch range, heavy 6, strength 4? It would almost be like have three storm bolters. I could live with that.
The Soul Reaper version the Thousand Sons have is R24, S4, AP-3 Heavy 6... So yeah, the more mundane version R24, S4, AP - , Heavy 6 makes sense. That makes it a purely volume of fire weapon, that does nothing to almost nothing to mitigate toughness or armor saves. Against higher armored targets the bolter I think still wins out. Against hordes this will be better.
Yeah, the chaotic bois are going to have a hell of a release by all accounts. It's a safe bet to assume Black legion (and CSM in general) are about to explode in popularity. Personally I love evrything we've seen from them so far with possible exception to the new obliterators.
This new Abaddon might be GWs best model, certainly their best centerpiece HQIMO -and- it's the model that most badly needed an update.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
aka_mythos wrote: Maybe I'm biased but the Abaddon is such a step up in quality from even Robute.
Thousand Sons already got rotor cannons too. Marines should have the advantage of the few minor technological advancement, Chaos Marines the advantage of the remnants of Heresy Era technology they've been able to maintain.
Dual belt feed - maybe twice the number of shots? H6 S5 AP1 wouldn't be too shabby, but might make the heavy bolter pointless.
I think, compared to the heavy bolter, it should have a lot more shots, but with lower strength and shorter range. Perhaps 24 inch range, heavy 6, strength 4? It would almost be like have three storm bolters. I could live with that.
The Soul Reaper version the Thousand Sons have is R24, S4, AP-3 Heavy 6... So yeah, the more mundane version R24, S4, AP - , Heavy 6 makes sense. That makes it a purely volume of fire weapon, that does nothing to almost nothing to mitigate toughness or armor saves. Against higher armored targets the bolter I think still wins out. Against hordes this will be better.
Thousand Sons already got rotor cannons too. Marines should have the advantage of the few minor technological advancement, Chaos Marines the advantage of the remnants of Heresy Era technology they've been able to maintain.
Dual belt feed - maybe twice the number of shots? H6 S5 AP1 wouldn't be too shabby, but might make the heavy bolter pointless.
I think, compared to the heavy bolter, it should have a lot more shots, but with lower strength and shorter range. Perhaps 24 inch range, heavy 6, strength 4? It would almost be like have three storm bolters. I could live with that.
The Soul Reaper version the Thousand Sons have is R24, S4, AP-3 Heavy 6... So yeah, the more mundane version R24, S4, AP - , Heavy 6 makes sense. That makes it a purely volume of fire weapon, that does nothing to almost nothing to mitigate toughness or armor saves. Against higher armored targets the bolter I think still wins out. Against hordes this will be better.
What you have said is more likely... but I think it would be neat if they made the rotor cannon S3 (like the Heresy-era version) or even S2, but a bucket load of shots. This would make it statistically better at killing weak units than Space Marines, and really cement it into a chaff-killing role. Probably not going to happen though.
Seeing Abaddon next to Guilliman really highlights the problem with the the latter. Abaddon actually looks like a giant guy in 40K scale, Guilliman looks like a model from a game using different scale.
Thousand Sons already got rotor cannons too. Marines should have the advantage of the few minor technological advancement, Chaos Marines the advantage of the remnants of Heresy Era technology they've been able to maintain.
Dual belt feed - maybe twice the number of shots? H6 S5 AP1 wouldn't be too shabby, but might make the heavy bolter pointless.
I think, compared to the heavy bolter, it should have a lot more shots, but with lower strength and shorter range. Perhaps 24 inch range, heavy 6, strength 4? It would almost be like have three storm bolters. I could live with that.
The Soul Reaper version the Thousand Sons have is R24, S4, AP-3 Heavy 6... So yeah, the more mundane version R24, S4, AP - , Heavy 6 makes sense. That makes it a purely volume of fire weapon, that does nothing to almost nothing to mitigate toughness or armor saves. Against higher armored targets the bolter I think still wins out. Against hordes this will be better.
What you have said is more likely... but I think it would be neat if they made the rotor cannon S3 (like the Heresy-era version) or even S2, but a bucket load of shots. This would make it statistically better at killing weak units than Space Marines, and really cement it into a chaff-killing role. Probably not going to happen though.
I request using math first. At S2 this weapon need to be HEAVY 30 to even do 3 wounds to guardsmen in cover, or Heavy 20 at S3. To kill chaff it should probably be S5 Heavy 6 (and yes this means Heavy bolsters are awful, but they always have been).
Both looks nice. Abbadon looks fantastic but Guilliman doesn´t seems bad. They are very similar in my opinión. Like others sayd before, one darkness the other is the light.
defwolf wrote: Why does Abaddon need tracer rounds? Doesn't his machine spirit keep track of his ammo? Lol
1. Who says they’re tracer rounds? The marking designations of a military that’s millennia dead and superseded several times over?
2. What do tracers have to do with “keeping track of ammo” exactly?
3. His armour’s machine spirit spends most of its time growling at Drach’nyen these days. The sword growls right back. Abbadon thinks this is both hilarious and adorable.
WOWWWWW!!! I hate to say this, but I think this may be the best model in the citadel range now. Just brilliantly executed. I think this release is what will push me over 2 decades of reticence to starting a Black legion army. Groan.....
By the way, I know they’re both toy soldiers, but Roboute actually looks like one next to Abaddon.
What you have said is more likely... but I think it would be neat if they made the rotor cannon S3 (like the Heresy-era version) or even S2, but a bucket load of shots. This would make it statistically better at killing weak units than Space Marines, and really cement it into a chaff-killing role. Probably not going to happen though.
I request using math first. At S2 this weapon need to be HEAVY 30 to even do 3 wounds to guardsmen in cover, or Heavy 20 at S3. To kill chaff it should probably be S5 Heavy 6 (and yes this means Heavy bolsters are awful, but they always have been).
I'd rather S3 heavy 20 than S5 heavy 6- at least then the battlefield role is clear, and it isn't another variant of heavy bolter-type weapon. Also, rolling the dice for a unit of Havoks with 4 would be great fun
Anyway, why is 3 wounds-per-turn the benchmark? Even a plasmagun, one of the best man-portable weapons of this edition, could only kill two guardsmen at best, and a heavy bolter could only kill three at best. If the weapon is cheap (say, 4-5pts), and a unit is chucking out a lot of shots, it will do the job. If you really want to, add some suppression mechanic so it doesn't have to outright kill units.
Tracers are also sometimes placed two or three rounds from the bottom of magazines to alert the shooter that his weapon is almost empty. During World War II, aircraft with fixed machine guns or cannons mounted would sometimes have a series of tracer rounds added near the end of the ammunition belts, to alert the pilot that he was almost out of ammunition.
What you have said is more likely... but I think it would be neat if they made the rotor cannon S3 (like the Heresy-era version) or even S2, but a bucket load of shots. This would make it statistically better at killing weak units than Space Marines, and really cement it into a chaff-killing role. Probably not going to happen though.
I request using math first. At S2 this weapon need to be HEAVY 30 to even do 3 wounds to guardsmen in cover, or Heavy 20 at S3. To kill chaff it should probably be S5 Heavy 6 (and yes this means Heavy bolsters are awful, but they always have been).
I'd rather S3 heavy 20 than S5 heavy 6- at least then the battlefield role is clear, and it isn't another variant of heavy bolter-type weapon. Also, rolling the dice for a unit of Havoks with 4 would be great fun
Anyway, why is 3 wounds-per-turn the benchmark? Even a plasmagun, one of the best man-portable weapons of this edition, could only kill two guardsmen at best, and a heavy bolter could only kill three at best. If the weapon is cheap (say, 4-5pts), and a unit is chucking out a lot of shots, it will do the job. If you really want to, add some suppression mechanic so it doesn't have to outright kill units.
Maybe like Heavy 12 S3 AP-1 or ignores cover? Heavy 20 is going to get tedious fast if you have 4-5 of them. I run ork warbiker mobs, there's a limit to amount of dice you want to roll for minimal results I guess dice apps exist but I think the GW one isn't on android
Edit: Or getting +1 to hit against units consisting of 10 models or more
Crimson wrote: Seeing Abaddon next to Guilliman really highlights the problem with the the latter. Abaddon actually looks like a giant guy in 40K scale, Guilliman looks like a model from a game using different scale.
Yep. Abaddon is a cool model. Gulliman look like a deformed teenager. Horrible model
Crimson wrote: Seeing Abaddon next to Guilliman really highlights the problem with the the latter. Abaddon actually looks like a giant guy in 40K scale, Guilliman looks like a model from a game using different scale.
Argh, that's EXACTLY what's been bugging me, I just couldn't articulate it.
I'll never love that frickin top knot, but otherwise very cool Abaddon.
Crimson wrote: Seeing Abaddon next to Guilliman really highlights the problem with the the latter. Abaddon actually looks like a giant guy in 40K scale, Guilliman looks like a model from a game using different scale.
That was my problem with the Guilliman model when it was released. His proportions are all wrong, and he's far too skinny. But yes, Abaddon does rather nicely highlight it.
I do have some qualms with how beaten up his armour is... He's the freaking Warmaster! I almost want to buy one and see if I can patch it up all shiny. And 'fix' the trophy rack back to the old style
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the subject of Havocs.
Wanna know what I think would be super cool? If they have new Heavy Weapons not available to other Chaos Squads.
That could mean the Rotor Cannon we’re seeing is their Heavy Bolter equivalent. Higher rate of fire, without being an outright replacement. Or even a rotary Autocannon, looking at the shells. Give them a role more distinct and impressive than Devastators etc.
The problem with Roboute is his waist and his head. The helm fix the head problem, but the waist is just too small for such a figurine. He has a third problem which is that he is an ultramarine but alas that's how it is. Abaddon seems to have the right proportions, aside maybe for the huge belt that seems a little too big in some pictures.
What do you guys prefer : with or without the cape ?
WhiteDog wrote: The problem with Roboute is his waist and his head. The helm fix the head problem, but the waist is just too small for such a figurine. He has a third problem which is that he is an ultramarine but alas that's how it is.
Abaddon seems to have the right proportions, aside maybe for the huge belt that seems a little too big in some pictures.
What do you guys prefer : with or without the cape ?
On the cape, I’m torn.
As a display piece, defo cloak on. As a gaming piece? Probably cloak off. Can’t really justify. They’re just feels!
WhiteDog wrote: The problem with Roboute is his waist and his head. The helm fix the head problem, but the waist is just too small for such a figurine. He has a third problem which is that he is an ultramarine but alas that's how it is.
Abaddon seems to have the right proportions, aside maybe for the huge belt that seems a little too big in some pictures.
What do you guys prefer : with or without the cape ?
Without cape feels right for Abaddon, for me. I don't associate him with the pomp and pageantry of the olden days, to me he should look like he's been crossing one big continuous battlefield since the heresy. Apart from a few trophies he can jam on his armour as he goes, everything else should have rotted or fallen away.
You can just about make out what looks to me like a Blood Angel-y red helmet to the left of the dead marine, I'm wondering if there's bits of two dudes underfoot?
It's it just me, or does the havoc's weapon look a lot like the hades gatling cannon from the heldrake? As neat as new new weapons would be, a squad of Hades Havocs would be about 150 points for 16 s8 ap-2 dam2 shots. Combo with VotLW and that is a DEADLY volley.
StarHunter25 wrote: It's it just me, or does the havoc's weapon look a lot like the hades gatling cannon from the heldrake? As neat as new new weapons would be, a squad of Hades Havocs would be about 150 points for 16 s8 ap-2 dam2 shots. Combo with VotLW and that is a DEADLY volley.
I'd rather see hades on preds, on the other hand more accurate and more plattforms for hades is a good thing in my book.
Also is it just me or makes that Abi model actual for nice terminator Lord conversions?
Abaddon is such a nice mini! Its not overbusy but still have loads of nice details. Such a good balance and the focal point is nailed too. I say one of the best GW miniatures for sure.
I complained to someone saying that space marines / primaris have really lost their image compared to the chaos space marines. Marines have become too round...
I only hope one day we get an equally good Ghazghull. We now have plastic Calgar, Eldrad and Abaddon so he’s the only major faction leader of that calibre left over, oh and Yarrick!
Asherian Command wrote: I complained to someone saying that space marines / primaris have really lost their image compared to the chaos space marines. Marines have become too round...
Join Chaos, we have Spikes to slow the rounding, altough you may get stuck if you drop wrong like a spear.
Cant wait to see what else he has cooked up for the Primaris line.
