Crimson wrote: So I saw these supposed leaked point costs. I have no idea if they're real, I kinda hope not...
CSM 13
GP 70
MoP 90
Oblit 115
Venom 130
Autocannon 10
Plasmas Gun 11
Plasma Pistol 5
GP at 70 pts... That is near exalted Champion level.
The Venom seems meh,
MoP at 90 is good, no argueing there,
Oblits well that was it, oblits dead again.
blaktoof wrote: anyone that thought infiltrators wouldn't cost multiple points more than intercessors was smoking crack.
They have the same statline, a better gun (auto wound on unmod 6s to hit), special deployment rules aka scouts, can deny DS built in, and have an upgrade that lets them heal and restore slain models, oh and 1 use smoke grenades.
Obviously they are going to cost more points than intercessors.
The infiltrators' weapon is not better, is different
PiñaColada wrote: I was convinced (admittedly based on nothing but a hunch) that infiltrators would be 19 points each. 22 is a bit too steep unless they also get some real nifty unique strats.
Eliminatos and suppressors are priced correctly though.
The venomcrawler is probably 15 points overcosted and the obliterators maybe 10 points over?
Yeah 33 points for a Suppressor seems very good to me, and 24 for the Eliminator is decent - though i can also see the point of spending the 72-216 points on something other than Eliminators.
Crimson wrote: So I saw these supposed leaked point costs. I have no idea if they're real, I kinda hope not...
CSM 13
GP 70
MoP 90
Oblit 115
Venom 130
Autocannon 10
Plasmas Gun 11
Plasma Pistol 5
GP at 70 pts... That is near exalted Champion level.
The Venom seems meh,
MoP at 90 is good, no argueing there,
Oblits well that was it, oblits dead again.
Oblits is just a sidegrade i believe. Essentially 2 is the same cost as 3 old ones, but with the same shots and better stats. I can see people running a squad or 2 of 2 still.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PiñaColada wrote: The eliminators are 21 points per model total. 18+3
24 points runs them dangerously close to having to compete with a vindicare which I don't think they can do. A scout with a sniper is 13 so two of them is 26. For about the same cost you get one less shot, but it's higher quality and on a model that is far more durable with a superior armor save and two wounds which has it's pros and cons compared to two wounds being spread out across multiple bodies. Big point in the scout's favor however is the fact that they are troops.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: 24 points runs them dangerously close to having to compete with a vindicare which I don't think they can do. A scout with a sniper is 13 so two of them is 26. For about the same cost you get one less shot, but it's higher quality and on a model that is far more durable with a superior armor save and two wounds which has it's pros and cons compared to two wounds being spread out across multiple bodies. Big point in the scout's favor however is the fact that they are troops.
I agree. I was thinking about running 2 squads of them at around 60-65 points, but that extra 12 points somehow just feels bad
Hopefully there will be some good reviews posted first thing saturday.
axisofentropy wrote: New units in box sets are always expensive, then they come down in the new codex.
Which may or may not happen in this case. Why else would they have mini-dexes in the box set? It's unlikely the new units will get any points changes until the next Chapter Approved.
ShaneMarsh wrote: This also assumes they pay for the camo cloak. They very easily could have that baked into their point cost for purposes of the Shadowspear points.
If camo cloaks were just an ability on the datasheet, this might be likely. But they are specifically listing in their equipment/wargear list. So they are very likely to cost points, assuming the same as Scouts
I'd love to see some math on the eliminators against characters if anyone is good at that sort of thing. My really rough estimates indicate you would need 6 to have a decent chance of taking out a standard infantry type character due to the limitations of s4.
axisofentropy wrote: New units in box sets are always expensive, then they come down in the new codex.
Which may or may not happen in this case. Why else would they have mini-dexes in the box set?
It's unlikely the new units will get any points changes until the next Chapter Approved.
except you've been demonstrativly proven wrong.
The last time we got new SM units in a mini dex was in dark Imperium
Cost of an intercessor squad in the dark Imperium Mini-dex: 22 PPM
Cost of an intercessor squad in codex space marines 20 PPM
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I'd love to see some math on the eliminators against characters if anyone is good at that sort of thing. My really rough estimates indicate you would need 6 to have a decent chance of taking out a standard infantry type character due to the limitations of s4.
Yeah, I'd also like to see the comparison between 3 Eliminators vs 1 Vindicare
axisofentropy wrote: New units in box sets are always expensive, then they come down in the new codex.
Which may or may not happen in this case. Why else would they have mini-dexes in the box set? It's unlikely the new units will get any points changes until the next Chapter Approved.
except you've been demonstrativly proven wrong.
The last time we got new SM units in a mini dex was in dark Imperium
Cost of an intercessor squad in the dark Imperium Mini-dex: 22 PPM Cost of an intercessor squad in codex space marines 20 PPM
True, but DI was released before the Codex. What you are suggesting (and may be true) is that in order for Shadowspear to follow the same tread as DI, Space Marine and CSM codices are 100% on the way. I can certainly see this being true for CSMs given all the new stuff GW has on the pipeline, but the Vanguard Marines feel more like one-off additions, rather than indication of a new 'Dex on the way
I'd be happy to be wrong, Marines need the help, but it just doesn't "feel" like it will be the same as DI
Eliminators, and any other sniper unit, can't really ever compete with the Vindicare on sniping because the Vindicare has a shoot twice strat. Their use will mainly be if you want more snipers beyond a Vindicare. But then, why not scouts? They are troops at least.
Venomcrawler at 130 is DOA. The current Daemon engines are already not worth using. Venom needs to be ~100, and the defiler and fiends need to drop 10-15pts each. They are currently priced as if they had WS/BS 3+.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I'd love to see some math on the eliminators against characters if anyone is good at that sort of thing. My really rough estimates indicate you would need 6 to have a decent chance of taking out a standard infantry type character due to the limitations of s4.
It’s also their threat quotient,
As a GSC player, these guys are a bit thorny for me. Whilst far from insta-gib, they’re threat enough that I’ll want to be quite careful with where I deploy my characters, and how I then move them around.
For my strategy, that could be a problem. I’m leaning heavily into character assassination myself. If your investment and deployment of Eliminators is decent, you can seriously hamper my own plan - whether or not they wind up killing anything of real note.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I'd love to see some math on the eliminators against characters if anyone is good at that sort of thing. My really rough estimates indicate you would need 6 to have a decent chance of taking out a standard infantry type character due to the limitations of s4.
depends what character you're going for I suppose.
there's a big differance in sniping down say... a deamon prince with T 6 and 8 wounds, vs say... a chaos sorcrerer.
I think the real intreasting thing will be if the executioner round or the hyperfrag round is deemed "better" and that'd be a useful bit of mathhammer to see
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Eliminators, and any other sniper unit, can't really ever compete with the Vindicare on sniping because the Vindicare has a shoot twice strat. Their use will mainly be if you want more snipers beyond a Vindicare. But then, why not scouts? They are troops at least.
Yeah, this is why my likely plan is to get 1 set of Eliminators to either be Scout Sgts, or Vindicare-counts-as Full power armour Snipers just look cool to me
IF the points are true and thats a big IF, then kinda meh on the box set as a whole.
Primaris side - 110 for a captain with a mediocre gun, and the scrambler. Feels like they are pricing the scrambler around 15-20. Seems pretty steep for it, if GSC is prominent maybe he sees the table.
Libby seems good because the powers are good
Elims will find a home in some lists for others they will pass, 3 man squad for 63 points, seems like they would pretty easily get their points back, while fulfilling scouts DS blocking role.
Infiltrators, unless your meta is huge on GSC I think these have priced themselves out of use they should have been about 20 considering an intercessors is 17 since its arguably a worse weapon, you are paying that plus 25 points for the scrambler, not impressed,
Suppressors @ 33 ppm seem reasonable, neither over nor undercosted so serviceable for normal games, unsure this is enough to let them see the table in a tournament setting though as the question remains why not just ally in something better.
Chaos side
MoP seems good because the powers are good
Oblits, for 115 ppm feel like they should have 5-6 wounds they are around broadside power level?
Venom @ 130 seems like people don't like it, I don't thin it is that bad, Wound have priced it around 110-120 personally but I think its usable, 2d3 krak missiles if nothing else, and its going to draw shots from other units due to them needing to profile it quickly. With self healing and repairs that is harder to do than it appears.
GP little more than expected but in that it seems able to take on a captain in combat, maybe its ok?
My personal opinion is that Eliminators will become a tournament staple. I don't see why they wouldn't. I don't see how they're not broken as hell vs. several armies.
-Best sniper rifle of any sniper in the game (sans Vindicare perhaps) So characters inside line of sight are in serious trouble.
-If you're out of line of sight, still hitting you on 2+ (even if you're Alaitoc, or if the Eliminator moved, etc.)
-Sure it's only Strength 4, -1 save...but that will absolutely crush Guard characters, Eldar characters (who mostly have a 4+ invuln)
-Potentially benefits from stratagems which assist Bolt type weapons
-Can infiltrate so they'll be within 36" of more or less - all of your opponents characters.
-Decently hard to kill and hard to shift.
-Can double up with deepstrike denying units so they can't be charged by counter-deepstriking units.
-Potentially nine shots of 2+ shooting will more or less guarantee one dead character a turn, perhaps a bit more.
-Unfortunately possible the unit size may be 5-6 models when shown in a proper codex (this will more or less compound the issues I'm already seeing)
-Shooting characters outside of line of sight for free - no use of stratagems, no cost in CP, etc.
You don't have much to worry about if you're a tough character with 2+ armour, etc....but for Eldar, Guard, Ork, Cult, etc. characters this will be a massive deal (in my opinion).
It unfortunately smacks to me of exceptionally lazy and gakky game design. It more or less removes any involvement from the target player "Oh I just hit you on 2+ and you can't do anything about it...sorry". This isn't a fun or a cool unit, it's a devastating unit which I think will become a serious Marine staple.
Elbows wrote: My personal opinion is that Eliminators will become a tournament staple. I don't see why they wouldn't. I don't see how they're not broken as hell vs. several armies.
-Best sniper rifle of any sniper in the game (sans Vindicare perhaps) So characters inside line of sight are in serious trouble.
-If you're out of line of sight, still hitting you on 2+ (even if you're Alaitoc, or if the Eliminator moved, etc.)
-Sure it's only Strength 4, -1 save...but that will absolutely crush Guard characters, Eldar characters (who mostly have a 4+ invuln)
-Potentially benefits from stratagems which assist Bolt type weapons
-Can infiltrate so they'll be within 36" of more or less - all of your opponents characters.
-Decently hard to kill and hard to shift.
-Can double up with deepstrike denying units so they can't be charged by counter-deepstriking units.
-Potentially nine shots of 2+ shooting will more or less guarantee one dead character a turn, perhaps a bit more.
-Unfortunately possible the unit size may be 5-6 models when shown in a proper codex (this will more or less compound the issues I'm already seeing)
-Shooting characters outside of line of sight for free - no use of stratagems, no cost in CP, etc.
You don't have much to worry about if you're a tough character with 2+ armour, etc....but for Eldar, Guard, Ork, Cult, etc. characters this will be a massive deal (in my opinion).
It unfortunately smacks to me of exceptionally lazy and gakky game design. It more or less removes any involvement from the target player "Oh I just hit you on 2+ and you can't do anything about it...sorry". This isn't a fun or a cool unit, it's a devastating unit which I think will become a serious Marine staple.
9, on average, won't kill a company commander even with a captain to re-roll 1's. (when hitting on 2+) Just about do it with a Lieutenant as well though.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Venomcrawler at 130 is DOA. The current Daemon engines are already not worth using. Venom needs to be ~100, and the defiler and fiends need to drop 10-15pts each. They are currently priced as if they had WS/BS 3+.
4+ to hit sucks, and I say that having dusted off my defiler the other day to see if the lower points means he's good now. He did essentially nothing but be a huge dumb target as he scuttled forward shooting his guns in the air and then whiffing in combat before getting finished off That 4+ to hit without auto-hit weapons means I guess I'll paint mine for completion ... or finally finish off my heldrake instead.
Also 115 a pop for oblits?? I said before checking on the buffs to the old toddler oblits:
+1T +1W +4 shots +1S -1AP D3 damage in combat
More significant than I realized!
Elbows wrote:My personal opinion is that Eliminators will become a tournament staple. I don't see why they wouldn't. I don't see how they're not broken as hell vs. several armies. ... It unfortunately smacks to me of exceptionally lazy and gakky game design. It more or less removes any involvement from the target player "Oh I just hit you on 2+ and you can't do anything about it...sorry". This isn't a fun or a cool unit, it's a devastating unit which I think will become a serious Marine staple.
Buddy I'm splitting the box with has been frothing throughout the afternoon about how many eliminators he's gonna be getting and how he's making a full spearhead of them Khorne Daemons I'm painting currently don't particularly care, but I guess bye-bye heralds, unless character invisibility still saves them somehow?
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: . The current Daemon engines are already not worth using. Venom needs to be ~100, and the defiler and fiends need to drop 10-15pts each. They are currently priced as if they had WS/BS 3+.
No way. The defiler is not in a bad spot.
Defiler is 98 points (minus the BC at BS4). That's 14 wounds with a 5++ and a heal. A helbrute is 90 points and 8 wounds for 4 weaker attacks that have -1 to hit unlike the Defiler. You can stick a TLC on a helbrute, but you could also put that on a defiler and reroll hits AND wounds, which is pretty big for lascannon shots not to mention also effecting the BC.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: . The current Daemon engines are already not worth using. Venom needs to be ~100, and the defiler and fiends need to drop 10-15pts each. They are currently priced as if they had WS/BS 3+.
No way. The defiler is not in a bad spot.
Defiler is 98 points (minus the BC at BS4). That's 14 wounds with a 5++ and a heal. A helbrute is 90 points and 8 wounds for 4 weaker attacks that have -1 to hit unlike the Defiler. You can stick a TLC on a helbrute, but you could also put that on a defiler and reroll hits AND wounds, which is pretty big for lascannon shots not to mention also effecting the BC.
If a unit relies on a single, proportionally powerful strat to be good, then the unit isn't good. The strat is. Without the strat the defiler isn't worth using. Due to the strat, it can be worthwhile to bring one. But if we want to see proper daemon engine based lists showing up in the meta, then things need to change as I have specified.
Yeah eliminators seem rough. Guys with a 1+ save that you can just put out of sight and have fire all day. They can move and shoot a target they can’t see on a 2+. Mortars? What mortars? Even reapers using fire and fade will hate these guys. I’d take buckets of them. A spearhead of them and a librarian might be the way to go.
Just reading some of these comments that are already analyzing every aspect of these new models and how useful/cost efficient they will be really highlights my distaste for 8th edition as a whole. It seems like the player base cares more about the competitive meta than having fun with their buddies and playing some games with some sweet new models.
If these pointcosts are final, then I expect most of them to drop in the next update.
22 ppm Infiltrators is a huge kick in the nads. They should cost about the same as Intercessors, perhaps 1-2 ppm more.
They have different (often worse) weaponry, and then they can pay for the area denial-aura and infiltrate. But 4-5 ppm more? No way José.
Eliminators, if they end up at 24 ppm (18 base, +3 for rifle, +3 for cloaks), are getting dangerously close to a Vindicare in cost, and I think we can all agree that the Vindicator by far is superior in most matchups.
Captain and Lieutenant suffer from bad wargear full stop, so I couldn't see myself taking them in general unless they where really cheap (which they aren't).
The Venomcrawler seems slightly overpriced compared to his Daemonengine-cousins, and they are already considered overpriced...
The Obliterators...yikes.
On the plus-side, Suppressors, Librarian, Master of Possession and possibly even the Greater Possessed all seem fine. So that's something I guess. 24 hours ago I was stoked about this release. Now I'm seriously considering ignoring it.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Just reading some of these comments that are already analyzing every aspect of these new models and how useful/cost efficient they will be really highlights my distaste for 8th edition as a whole. It seems like the player base cares more about the competitive meta than having fun with their buddies and playing some games with some sweet new models.
I don't think that is the fault of the edition, that's the attitude of the community. Most people take this stuff WAY to seriously these days. 7th drove me away from the game fast, but so far we are what, almost three years into 8th and I'm still having loads of fun with my armies, playing at least three times per week!
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Just reading some of these comments that are already analyzing every aspect of these new models and how useful/cost efficient they will be really highlights my distaste for 8th edition as a whole. It seems like the player base cares more about the competitive meta than having fun with their buddies and playing some games with some sweet new models.
Evaluating the power of a model, and evaluating the aesthetics of a model are very different things. I and alot of other people use non competitive models all the time for friendly games because we want to use a unit or model we enjoy. Not sure what type of meta you are in but it must be very different than mine if thats your reaction. My meta isn't castellan +32 or ynnari or GTFO lol. That doesn't mean you can't look at a unit and debate its merits though, theory crafting is fun, that doesn't mean everyone is building every list according to that though lol. This statement read very arrogant.... sorry if it wasn't intended as such just seems a very.... holier than thou thing to say. Think you might be projecting a bit here.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: . The current Daemon engines are already not worth using. Venom needs to be ~100, and the defiler and fiends need to drop 10-15pts each. They are currently priced as if they had WS/BS 3+.
No way. The defiler is not in a bad spot.
Defiler is 98 points (minus the BC at BS4). That's 14 wounds with a 5++ and a heal. A helbrute is 90 points and 8 wounds for 4 weaker attacks that have -1 to hit unlike the Defiler. You can stick a TLC on a helbrute, but you could also put that on a defiler and reroll hits AND wounds, which is pretty big for lascannon shots not to mention also effecting the BC.
If a unit relies on a single, proportionally powerful strat to be good, then the unit isn't good. The strat is. Without the strat the defiler isn't worth using. Due to the strat, it can be worthwhile to bring one. But if we want to see proper daemon engine based lists showing up in the meta, then things need to change as I have specified.
I'm not confident that shaving 45 points off a list with 3 of them suddenly makes them viable if they aren't already. MoP kicks them up as well - 42 T7 4++ wounds with heals is no joke.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Just reading some of these comments that are already analyzing every aspect of these new models and how useful/cost efficient they will be really highlights my distaste for 8th edition as a whole. It seems like the player base cares more about the competitive meta than having fun with their buddies and playing some games with some sweet new models.
I don't think that is the fault of the edition, that's the attitude of the community. Most people take this stuff WAY to seriously these days. 7th drove me away from the game fast, but so far we are what, almost three years into 8th and I'm still having loads of fun with my armies, playing at least three times per week!
I'm a hobbyist and painter first. I like the game because I like space marines, and especially chaos space marines. I got into the hobby in late 4th ed because I wanted to make a Legion army. I don't need it to be an A+ list or anything. But it needs to be worth putting on the tabletop. My analysis of the meta is entirely through the lens of "Does this make putting CSM on the table worthwhile?". So far I've been waiting 4 editions, and from the looks of things we've got a lot longer to wait still.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Just reading some of these comments that are already analyzing every aspect of these new models and how useful/cost efficient they will be really highlights my distaste for 8th edition as a whole. It seems like the player base cares more about the competitive meta than having fun with their buddies and playing some games with some sweet new models.
You say this like it hasn't been a thing that's true since at least 3rd edition.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: . The current Daemon engines are already not worth using. Venom needs to be ~100, and the defiler and fiends need to drop 10-15pts each. They are currently priced as if they had WS/BS 3+.
No way. The defiler is not in a bad spot.
Defiler is 98 points (minus the BC at BS4). That's 14 wounds with a 5++ and a heal. A helbrute is 90 points and 8 wounds for 4 weaker attacks that have -1 to hit unlike the Defiler. You can stick a TLC on a helbrute, but you could also put that on a defiler and reroll hits AND wounds, which is pretty big for lascannon shots not to mention also effecting the BC.
If a unit relies on a single, proportionally powerful strat to be good, then the unit isn't good. The strat is. Without the strat the defiler isn't worth using. Due to the strat, it can be worthwhile to bring one. But if we want to see proper daemon engine based lists showing up in the meta, then things need to change as I have specified.
I'm not confident that shaving 45 points off a list with 3 of them suddenly makes them viable if they aren't already. MoP kicks them up as well - 42 T7 4++ wounds with heals is no joke.
They have good defensive efficiency, yeah. And lots of potential buff and aura synergy. But all that costs a lot. We know they aren't running roughshod over the meta right now, and you are correct that taking 15pts off won't change that. 45 pts off 3 doesn't make this suddenly a viable list. But 90pts off 6 assorted daemon engines might. That basically covers the cost of the MoP in a big, daemon engine swarm list. And then you might be swinging enough efficient vehicle wounds around to get somewhere competitively.
Let me put it this way. "I had better bring X unit to deal with swarms of hard to kill daemon engines" is not something anybody is saying in the meta right now. But -15pts off each daemon engine + the MoP and greater possessed might just make them need to think about it. People should have to worry that a bunch of defilers are gonna come mob their Castellan in melee and need to have a way to deal with it.
I'm far from super competitive, but it is still shame if a new cool looking unit sucks. It is not like the pure Primaris armies are exactly ruling the tournament scene at the moment. I am also less concerned about the exact point cost of things like characters, as you are not include many anyway. But for a troop unit that you might want to field in great numbers, the points add up pretty quickly.
Crimson wrote: I'm far from super competitive, but it is still shame if a new cool looking unit sucks. It is not like the pure Primaris armies are exactly ruling the tournament scene at the moment. I am also less concerned about the exact point cost of things like characters, as you are not include many anyway. But for a troop unit that you might want to field in great numbers, the points add up pretty quickly.
I feel that way especially torwards the csm in the box, they look great, they got the heavy weapon i always wanted in plastic but even in a soup list with my renegades i wouldn't field them over 3 additional squads of militia.
They simply can't generate enough cp for a Troop choice in an army that heavily relies on stratagems.
I am disgusted by the Chaos pts, and I don't play Chaos. I want balanced points so the game is more enjoyable for everyone. Don't get me wrong, I like strong options. For everyone. Including my opponent.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am disgusted by the Chaos pts, and I don't play Chaos. I want balanced points so the game is more enjoyable for everyone. Don't get me wrong, I like strong options. For everyone. Including my opponent.
MoP will be seeing play surely, maybee not top tables but he is interesting, the greater Possessed have some angels.
It's really just the csm (the squad also is terribly equipped what with melee + bolter mix) and the Oblits pricetag.
To be honest I wonder if the points cost for infiltrators isn't about right. Before seeing these costs I was starting to think that they'd make intercessors entirely redundant. I could flood the midfield with bodies that would be very hard to shift. Armies like GSC would lose at list selection.
At 22 ppm a 5 man squad is still affordable. It's not crazy to go 110 for these guys instead of 85 for intercessors. But if I'm fielding 30+ guys then they should be intercessors - and that's how it ought to be.
Suppressors at 33 are awesome. For context, that's the cost of a marine with a missile launcher. These guys look like a solid option to me, and a great combo with the warlord trait that lets you re-deploy.
80 for the lieutenant is fine. A normal lieutenant is 74 and this guy has more options. His gun is arguably worse but that's not why you bring these guys anyway.
The librarian, likewise, seems great. He's another excellent combo with the redeploy warlord trait which, presumably, he can have.
It's really just the captain who sucks. You don't want to be using a captain as a screen (lol) and you don't really want to infiltrate a guy with a bad heavy weapon and negligible ability in cc. Fortunately I'm very happy with my (much cheaper, weirdly) Fist of Vengeance captain.
And eliminators are good. They are worth 24 points if that's what they cost. If anything, it's a problem that they are barely more expensive than infiltrators, because I think you'd take these guys every time.
As for the Chaos side of the release... well you get a nice new character to stand behind your cultists. Otherwise... oh well. The only positive I can see is that more stuff is probably on the way, and maybe it'll come with viable rules for your guys.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Just reading some of these comments that are already analyzing every aspect of these new models and how useful/cost efficient they will be really highlights my distaste for 8th edition as a whole. It seems like the player base cares more about the competitive meta than having fun with their buddies and playing some games with some sweet new models.
I don't think that is the fault of the edition, that's the attitude of the community. Most people take this stuff WAY to seriously these days. 7th drove me away from the game fast, but so far we are what, almost three years into 8th and I'm still having loads of fun with my armies, playing at least three times per week!
I'm a hobbyist and painter first. I like the game because I like space marines, and especially chaos space marines. I got into the hobby in late 4th ed because I wanted to make a Legion army. I don't need it to be an A+ list or anything. But it needs to be worth putting on the tabletop. My analysis of the meta is entirely through the lens of "Does this make putting CSM on the table worthwhile?". So far I've been waiting 4 editions, and from the looks of things we've got a lot longer to wait still.
Local meta? Most of this stuff will do fine in my area, I expect to see a jump in CSM players over the next two months, half of them will stick with it, that's just based on past experience.
I really wanted to play CSM in 6th/7th, but my friends talked me out of it. This looks like a good time to try and jump back in.
I think the early board control/deepstrike blocking as well as being potentially hard to shift with psychic powers and stratagems etc will have a much bigger effect than some may account for.
It could shut down/disrupt some armies for a fair few turns. Not that it will stop the best armies out there but it will have a big effect on some.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Additionally, those talking about the eliminators being overcosted when compared to a vindicare aren't considering one of the main glaring needs of a vindicate as it seems, you need two of them.
A vindicare and a squad of these may just be enough to take out those small characters with just too many wounds in a turn.
Mandragola wrote: To be honest I wonder if the points cost for infiltrators isn't about right. Before seeing these costs I was starting to think that they'd make intercessors entirely redundant. I could flood the midfield with bodies that would be very hard to shift.
Yup, because healing (maybe) a single dude per round makes them sooo durable, eh?
Let me also point out that even if 'hard to shift' bit was true, their offensive output is that of tactical marine. You know, model that is considered overpriced at 13 points, except now costing 26+ points with medic considered. Twice as much. May I ask how this makes any sense to you?
At 22 ppm a 5 man squad is still affordable. It's not crazy to go 110 for these guys instead of 85 for intercessors. But if I'm fielding 30+ guys then they should be intercessors - and that's how it ought to be.
"Ought to be"? Says who?
It's like saying to someone who wants to build first company, full of terminators, stern- and vanguard 'LOL just take tacticals instead". Except even worse, because instead of Tacticals +1 you postulate shoehorning something with completely different feel, role, and tactics instead. Never mind fluff says vanguards can operate in company size, you're saying to someone who wants to field 'scout company' except with primaris that he/she is having badwrongfun and they should go back to boring starter models instead of variety...
Mandragola wrote: To be honest I wonder if the points cost for infiltrators isn't about right. Before seeing these costs I was starting to think that they'd make intercessors entirely redundant. I could flood the midfield with bodies that would be very hard to shift. Armies like GSC would lose at list selection.
I'm wondering if their Omni-Scramblers are an upgrade rather than mandatory. It's also possible that the full kit builds a 'variant' that we haven't seen yet that is a Troops slot that doesn't have alternate deployment/denial.
To me at least Venomcrawlers are not *that* overpriced.
The idea that a defiler at 142 or a Mauler at 132 is "overpriced" is somewhat ridiculous given how tough they are and the damage they output. I have always been quite fond of them.
The Crawler is perhaps at MOST 15 points overpriced. At the very most. Probably should have been 120.
Its got easy-access str 8 guns that don't care about moving and can heal up to 2 a turn before any healing spell effect occurs. It certainly has potential. (We at this moment do not know its attack stat but I am going to guess it has 4 given all the other melee engines do) The gun can be buffed to str 9 quite easily if you intend on taking Greater Possessed which at this point may as well be miniature daemon princes in combat as an easy access buff.
I don't see the issue honestly, though helbrutes at this moment are priced pretty well that 5++ and regen often makes it far more capable over the long term in my experience.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Just reading some of these comments that are already analyzing every aspect of these new models and how useful/cost efficient they will be really highlights my distaste for 8th edition as a whole. It seems like the player base cares more about the competitive meta than having fun with their buddies and playing some games with some sweet new models.
It's the only reason to discuss the units...
If we were just talking beer and pretzels games then guess what? Almost everyone says the same thing, "take what you want".
There has to be some weight to the outcome. Losing a tourney adds that weight.
Ahriman21 wrote: To me at least Venomcrawlers are not *that* overpriced.
The idea that a defiler at 142 or a Mauler at 132 is "overpriced" is somewhat ridiculous given how tough they are and the damage they output. I have always been quite fond of them.
The Crawler is perhaps at MOST 15 points overpriced. At the very most. Probably should have been 120.
Its got easy-access str 8 guns that don't care about moving and can heal up to 2 a turn before any healing spell effect occurs. It certainly has potential. (We at this moment do not know its attack stat but I am going to guess it has 4 given all the other melee engines do) The gun can be buffed to str 9 quite easily if you intend on taking Greater Possessed which at this point may as well be miniature daemon princes in combat as an easy access buff.
I don't see the issue honestly, though helbrutes at this moment are priced pretty well that 5++ and regen often makes it far more capable over the long term in my experience.
If these units are well priced, why don't they get used?
(Hint: It's because their damage isn't as good as it looks at first after you factor in that they are WS/BS 4+.)
Ahriman21 wrote: To me at least Venomcrawlers are not *that* overpriced.
The idea that a defiler at 142 or a Mauler at 132 is "overpriced" is somewhat ridiculous given how tough they are and the damage they output. I have always been quite fond of them.
The Crawler is perhaps at MOST 15 points overpriced. At the very most. Probably should have been 120.
Its got easy-access str 8 guns that don't care about moving and can heal up to 2 a turn before any healing spell effect occurs. It certainly has potential. (We at this moment do not know its attack stat but I am going to guess it has 4 given all the other melee engines do) The gun can be buffed to str 9 quite easily if you intend on taking Greater Possessed which at this point may as well be miniature daemon princes in combat as an easy access buff.
I don't see the issue honestly, though helbrutes at this moment are priced pretty well that 5++ and regen often makes it far more capable over the long term in my experience.
If these units are well priced, why don't they get used?
(Hint: It's because their damage isn't as good as it looks at first after you factor in that they are WS/BS 4+.)
A flawed line of reasoning. They most certainly do "get used" and I see them quite frequently, but the fact that they aren't included in top "ITC" or tourney lists means literally *nothing* to the vast majority of people that play the game. Its not like we don't have a 1 CP strat that may be the most cost-effective in the entire bloody game to even out their WS/BS
casvalremdeikun wrote: From the sounds of it Reivers are going to get the Phobos keyword. So that's nice. they might be one of the best units to use temporal corridor on.
From the sounds of what? I agree this should be done, but have you seen anything to suggest it could actually happen?
I'd love to see Reivers get an updated datasheet, featuring the sergeant options that intercessors have. They should clearly have the phobos keyword but that on its own isn't enough. They need to be able to accually accomplish something when they arrive in melee.
On the subject of infiltrators, I agree that the medic guy isn't worth taking. So don't - it looks to me like 5-man squads are the way to go anyway, in which case he's not even an option. I'm talking about 22ppm for a tough troops unit that makes a really excellent screen. And the best thing to compare it to is a scout, which costs exactly half as much. Honestly I'm not sure whether I do think infiltrators are worth two scouts, but they could be. The value of scouts has dropped a lot now they are somehow supposed to live to turn 2. Your opponent will have to point proper guns at interceptors to get rid of them. That's possible of course, but it then takes those guns away from firing at your big guys.
My point is that they have to be significantly more than intercessors, because they're significantly better. People take scouts instead of tactical marines even though they have worse armour, because of the board control. These guys have better board control than scouts and they are just as good at fighting as intercessors.
I think I'd have liked to see infiltrators at something like 20ppm. And I wouldn't pay any more for the medic guy. 22 does feel a bit high.
FWIW I ran the numbers on how many wounds a carbine would cause compared to a rifle. Most of the time the guns are really similar. Bolt rifles are marginally better vs GEQ but carbines marginally better vs orks. Rifles shade it vs MEQ. Carbines are 50% better again vs T8 - though neither is going to take down many knights.
These were my results (number of wounds carbine causes for every wound rifle causes):
Plaguebearer: 1.5 - so for every 2 plaguebearers intercessors kill, infiltrators would kill 3
GEQ 0.9 - a win for the rifles.
Ork 1.04 - a win for carbines, but the difference is negligible.
Meh, if those are the correct point costs I'll wait for the Libby to pop up on ebay/be released in a standalone blister and grab it. At most, some fancy Eliminators. Although Repressors aren't that badly costed, I already have Plasma Inceptors that do their job.
Just to throw in some additional comment. Oblits are expensive at 115 points if true. But if you take just one Oblit and deep strike it into the backline. It kinda forms a similar function as the old throwaway termicide unit...
And its melee has improved now, so if you charge it into a cheap backline objective holder, well chances are you will win.
And its kinda hard to screen your entire backline against 1 Oblit. I mean, you could if you ran 6 to 8 infantry units but if that 1 Oblit managed to get you to spread out infantry units all over to screen like that, then its worth its 115 points I feel.
Ahriman21 wrote: To me at least Venomcrawlers are not *that* overpriced.
The idea that a defiler at 142 or a Mauler at 132 is "overpriced" is somewhat ridiculous given how tough they are and the damage they output. I have always been quite fond of them.
The Crawler is perhaps at MOST 15 points overpriced. At the very most. Probably should have been 120.
Its got easy-access str 8 guns that don't care about moving and can heal up to 2 a turn before any healing spell effect occurs. It certainly has potential. (We at this moment do not know its attack stat but I am going to guess it has 4 given all the other melee engines do) The gun can be buffed to str 9 quite easily if you intend on taking Greater Possessed which at this point may as well be miniature daemon princes in combat as an easy access buff.
I don't see the issue honestly, though helbrutes at this moment are priced pretty well that 5++ and regen often makes it far more capable over the long term in my experience.
If these units are well priced, why don't they get used?
(Hint: It's because their damage isn't as good as it looks at first after you factor in that they are WS/BS 4+.)
A flawed line of reasoning. They most certainly do "get used" and I see them quite frequently, but the fact that they aren't included in top "ITC" or tourney lists means literally *nothing* to the vast majority of people that play the game. Its not like we don't have a 1 CP strat that may be the most cost-effective in the entire bloody game to even out their WS/BS
Okay, so I claim that they are not competitively priced and your response is....to agree that they are not competitively priced? Well alright then. Glad we're on the same page! As for the strat, see my previous responses a couple posts back. If a unit is only good because of a really good strat, it is the strat that is good, not the unit.
casvalremdeikun wrote: From the sounds of it Reivers are going to get the Phobos keyword. So that's nice. they might be one of the best units to use temporal corridor on.
From the sounds of what? I agree this should be done, but have you seen anything to suggest it could actually happen?
I'd love to see Reivers get an updated datasheet, featuring the sergeant options that intercessors have. They should clearly have the phobos keyword but that on its own isn't enough. They need to be able to accually accomplish something when they arrive in melee.
According to GW Facebook, they will be getting the Phobos keyword in the mini-dex in Shadowspear.
casvalremdeikun wrote: From the sounds of it Reivers are going to get the Phobos keyword. So that's nice. they might be one of the best units to use temporal corridor on.
From the sounds of what? I agree this should be done, but have you seen anything to suggest it could actually happen?
I'd love to see Reivers get an updated datasheet, featuring the sergeant options that intercessors have. They should clearly have the phobos keyword but that on its own isn't enough. They need to be able to accually accomplish something when they arrive in melee.
According to GW Facebook, they will be getting the Phobos keyword in the mini-dex in Shadowspear.
If you're referring to THIS it doesn't say what you think it says.
casvalremdeikun wrote: From the sounds of it Reivers are going to get the Phobos keyword. So that's nice. they might be one of the best units to use temporal corridor on.
From the sounds of what? I agree this should be done, but have you seen anything to suggest it could actually happen?
I'd love to see Reivers get an updated datasheet, featuring the sergeant options that intercessors have. They should clearly have the phobos keyword but that on its own isn't enough. They need to be able to accually accomplish something when they arrive in melee.
According to GW Facebook, they will be getting the Phobos keyword in the mini-dex in Shadowspear.
If you're referring to THIS it doesn't say what you think it says.
Ha, that's my post, BTW. In the comments for today's article, they confirmed in multiple places that Reivers will be getting the Phobos keyword in the comments. They weren't 100% definitive, but they seldom are.
casvalremdeikun wrote: From the sounds of it Reivers are going to get the Phobos keyword. So that's nice. they might be one of the best units to use temporal corridor on.
From the sounds of what? I agree this should be done, but have you seen anything to suggest it could actually happen?
I'd love to see Reivers get an updated datasheet, featuring the sergeant options that intercessors have. They should clearly have the phobos keyword but that on its own isn't enough. They need to be able to accually accomplish something when they arrive in melee.
According to GW Facebook, they will be getting the Phobos keyword in the mini-dex in Shadowspear.
If you're referring to THIS it doesn't say what you think it says.
Ha, that's my post, BTW. In the comments for today's article, they confirmed in multiple places that Reivers will be getting the Phobos keyword in the comments. They weren't 100% definitive, but they seldom are.
It's likely but not certain. Time will tell and we'll know for sure in a few weeks.
They've done 180's on FB comments in the past when they've "confirmed" stuff they shouldn't have so I take it as the proverbial salt that it is.
Preordered the box at my local store, they do 25% off on GW products and I've arranged to split the box with my brother who wants the Primaris side so I'll paying just over 35% of the retail. I'm pretty happy with that.
warboss wrote: When does Abby go up on the website? I'd love to see the 360 view of him.
Current rumour is the following Saturday so preorder on the 16th, Abbadon preorder same time as the Vigilus II book
sounds about right, I suspect we'll get something other then just abddon though. we got a CSM leader with Calgar after all. may guess is maybe new termies?
Mandragola wrote: Suppressors at 33 are awesome. For context, that's the cost of a marine with a missile launcher. These guys look like a solid option to me, and a great combo with the warlord trait that lets you re-deploy.
They'd be 35 each, as they come equipped with grav-chutes aswel.
Ahriman21 wrote: To me at least Venomcrawlers are not *that* overpriced.
The idea that a defiler at 142 or a Mauler at 132 is "overpriced" is somewhat ridiculous given how tough they are and the damage they output. I have always been quite fond of them.
The Crawler is perhaps at MOST 15 points overpriced. At the very most. Probably should have been 120.
Its got easy-access str 8 guns that don't care about moving and can heal up to 2 a turn before any healing spell effect occurs. It certainly has potential. (We at this moment do not know its attack stat but I am going to guess it has 4 given all the other melee engines do) The gun can be buffed to str 9 quite easily if you intend on taking Greater Possessed which at this point may as well be miniature daemon princes in combat as an easy access buff.
I don't see the issue honestly, though helbrutes at this moment are priced pretty well that 5++ and regen often makes it far more capable over the long term in my experience.
If these units are well priced, why don't they get used?
(Hint: It's because their damage isn't as good as it looks at first after you factor in that they are WS/BS 4+.)
A flawed line of reasoning. They most certainly do "get used" and I see them quite frequently, but the fact that they aren't included in top "ITC" or tourney lists means literally *nothing* to the vast majority of people that play the game. Its not like we don't have a 1 CP strat that may be the most cost-effective in the entire bloody game to even out their WS/BS
Okay, so I claim that they are not competitively priced and your response is....to agree that they are not competitively priced? Well alright then. Glad we're on the same page! As for the strat, see my previous responses a couple posts back. If a unit is only good because of a really good strat, it is the strat that is good, not the unit.
I disagree with that line of reasoning. You cannot separate the utility of the unit from that of the strat. They exist together and are accessible therefore that cost must be considered in deciding a units validity.
Secondly: I have seen plenty of wacky lists end up placing in tourneys just fine. This includes lists with *gasp* CHAOS SPACE MARINES!
I often find WAAC players can't think outside the "net list" box.
Mandragola wrote: Suppressors at 33 are awesome. For context, that's the cost of a marine with a missile launcher. These guys look like a solid option to me, and a great combo with the warlord trait that lets you re-deploy.
They'd be 35 each, as they come equipped with grav-chutes aswel.
So they do. That’s weird. I wonder why they have jump palaces and chutes.
Mandragola wrote: Suppressors at 33 are awesome. For context, that's the cost of a marine with a missile launcher. These guys look like a solid option to me, and a great combo with the warlord trait that lets you re-deploy.
They'd be 35 each, as they come equipped with grav-chutes aswel.
So they do. That’s weird. I wonder why they have jump palaces and chutes.
well with the whole bespoke rules and the like now just having a jump pack doesn't automaticly give deep strike. so this might be simply a way to give people who don't want to deep strike the unit a slight discount?
Although I wouldn't be surprised if the grav-chutes are not optional, because the smaller jump packs the Suppressors have might need the grav-vanes because they don't generate enough thrust by themselves.
I'm curious how the Suppressors look from the back.
Redemption wrote: Although I wouldn't be surprised if the grav-chutes are not optional, because the smaller jump packs the Suppressors have might need the grav-vanes because they don't generate enough thrust by themselves.
I'm curious how the Suppressors look from the back.
yeah my inital read was that they could choose them optionally but looks like I misread that.
I guess we'll know for sure when we see the full datasheet, whenever that gets released. These are only the mini-dexes from shadowspear so they might not be the complete rules.
Someone pointed out a few pages back that when DI was released it had a set of points that were different from those in the codex, which was released only a week or so later. It's possible that the full rules (in vigilus 2?) could be different.
For me, this just feels like yet another reason not to bother with Shadow spear. There are no auto-take models in there so I think I'll wait for full rules and full kits.
Those points are decided in regard to the content of the box, and not in regard to the overall balance in the game. I don't understand why people just gets all flustered other rules that are bound to change in the month if not weeks to come.
Your 10-man squads of Chaos Space Marines are great for holding objectives and offering fire support while the rest of your fast-moving, melee-focussed army speeds towards the foe to engage them in combat. Alternatively, you can use them to follow up your first wave of daemonically possessed gribblies and put the new beta Bolter Discipline rules to good use at close range.
Your 10-man squads of Chaos Space Marines are great for holding objectives and offering fire support while the rest of your fast-moving, melee-focussed army speeds towards the foe to engage them in combat. Alternatively, you can use them to follow up your first wave of daemonically possessed gribblies and put the new beta Bolter Discipline rules to good use at close range.
what matched play world these dudes live in haha
And have they actually read the new Bolter Discipline rules??? Walking upfield and shooting close range are the opposite of what it does.
Well, the article wasn't completely pointless. We learned what two of the Warlord Traits do. Warp Lord (which may have already been revealed) gives rerolls of 1s on psychic tests. Marksman's Honours must increase the damage of a shooting weapon by 1. Not terrible, but better variations of it exist.
I was hoping they would have made a comment on Reivers, but I guess that is too much to ask.
Your 10-man squads of Chaos Space Marines are great for holding objectives and offering fire support while the rest of your fast-moving, melee-focussed army speeds towards the foe to engage them in combat. Alternatively, you can use them to follow up your first wave of daemonically possessed gribblies and put the new beta Bolter Discipline rules to good use at close range.
what matched play world these dudes live in haha
And have they actually read the new Bolter Discipline rules??? Walking upfield and shooting close range are the opposite of what it does.
It is hillarious!
No serious, the whole article is hilarious!
Also re: bolter beta rule, they even Link the fething rule !
Using the leaked points costs I made a quick list of the force they show that is supposed to be around 2k points for marines and I am getting a total of 1867pts. I put cyclone missile launchers and multimeltas on the land speeders and sniper rifles/camo cloaks on the scouts.
Librarian - 100pts
Captain in Phobos Armor - 110pts
5x Scouts w/camo cloaks and sniper rifles - 80pts
5x Scouts w/camo cloaks and sniper rifles - 80pts
5x Scouts w/camo cloaks and sniper rifles - 80pts
9x Infiltrators with Apothecary - 230pts (22pts each and 32 for the Apothecary)
3x Eliminators - 72pts (18 base + 3 for weapon + 3 for camo cloak)
3x Land Speeders: Multi-melta, Typhoon missile launcher - 330pts
Am I missing anything? Is 1867 pts "in the region" of 2000 pts? Are the points costs incorrect and actually worse? Are we missing points costs for equipment? Do they honestly believe an army that includes 600pts of Reivers makes sense?
abyrn wrote: Using the leaked points costs I made a quick list of the force they show that is supposed to be around 2k points for marines and I am getting a total of 1873pts. I put cyclone missle lauchers and multimeltas on the land speeders and sniper rifles/camo cloaks on the scouts.
Librarian - 100pts
Captain in Phobos Armor - 110pts
5x Scouts w/camo cloaks and sniper rifles - 80pts
5x Scouts w/camo cloaks and sniper rifles - 80pts
5x Scouts w/camo cloaks and sniper rifles - 80pts
9x Infiltrators with Apothecary - 230pts (22pts each and 23 for the Apothecary)
3x Eliminators - 78pts (18 base + 3 for weapon + 3 for camo cloak)
3x Land Speeders: Multi-melta, Typhoon missile launcher - 330pts
Am I missing anything? Is 1873 pts "in the region" of 2000 pts? Are the points costs incorrect and actually worse? Are we missing points costs for equipment? Do they honestly believe an army that includes 600pts of Reivers makes sense?
abyrn wrote: Using the leaked points costs I made a quick list of the force they show that is supposed to be around 2k points for marines and I am getting a total of 1873pts. I put cyclone missle lauchers and multimeltas on the land speeders and sniper rifles/camo cloaks on the scouts.
Librarian - 100pts
Captain in Phobos Armor - 110pts
5x Scouts w/camo cloaks and sniper rifles - 80pts
5x Scouts w/camo cloaks and sniper rifles - 80pts
5x Scouts w/camo cloaks and sniper rifles - 80pts
9x Infiltrators with Apothecary - 230pts (22pts each and 23 for the Apothecary)
3x Eliminators - 78pts (18 base + 3 for weapon + 3 for camo cloak)
3x Land Speeders: Multi-melta, Typhoon missile launcher - 330pts
Am I missing anything? Is 1873 pts "in the region" of 2000 pts? Are the points costs incorrect and actually worse? Are we missing points costs for equipment? Do they honestly believe an army that includes 600pts of Reivers makes sense?
I have no answers, only questions.
10 infiltrators, no idea if an apo is an upgrade.
In the leaked datasheets its says the squad "can include up to 4 additional Infiltrators and an Infiltrator Helix Adept," so a 10 man squad must have and Infiltrator Helix Adept. I'm just trying to make sense of the leaks haha we have no confirmation of what is actually going on.
abyrn wrote: Using the leaked points costs I made a quick list of the force they show that is supposed to be around 2k points for marines and I am getting a total of 1873pts. I put cyclone missle lauchers and multimeltas on the land speeders and sniper rifles/camo cloaks on the scouts.
Librarian - 100pts
Captain in Phobos Armor - 110pts
5x Scouts w/camo cloaks and sniper rifles - 80pts
5x Scouts w/camo cloaks and sniper rifles - 80pts
5x Scouts w/camo cloaks and sniper rifles - 80pts
9x Infiltrators with Apothecary - 230pts (22pts each and 23 for the Apothecary)
3x Eliminators - 78pts (18 base + 3 for weapon + 3 for camo cloak)
3x Land Speeders: Multi-melta, Typhoon missile launcher - 330pts
Am I missing anything? Is 1873 pts "in the region" of 2000 pts? Are the points costs incorrect and actually worse? Are we missing points costs for equipment? Do they honestly believe an army that includes 600pts of Reivers makes sense?
I have no answers, only questions.
10 infiltrators, no idea if an apo is an upgrade.
In the leaked datasheets its says the squad "can include up to 4 additional Infiltrators and an Infiltrator Helix Adept," so a 10 man squad must have and Infiltrator Helix Adept. I'm just trying to make sense of the leaks haha we have no confirmation of what is actually going on.
No worries, i just stated what they wrote in the article. and it seems the article writer didn't just get the Bolter rule wrong
This article did do one thing. It showed me that the Infiltrator Sergeant doesn't even have a helmet on his hip like the Captain, so I can't cut it off to put on his head instead (or on the head of the other half-mask dude and leave the Sergeant without a helmet). So that sucks. Hopefully they went ahead and put an alternate head on the sprue like they did with the Eliminators.
Using the leaked points costs I made a quick list of the force they show that is supposed to be around 2k points for marines and I am getting a total of 1873pts. I put cyclone missle lauchers and multimeltas on the land speeders and sniper rifles/camo cloaks on the scouts.
Librarian - 100pts
Captain in Phobos Armor - 110pts
5x Scouts w/camo cloaks and sniper rifles - 80pts
5x Scouts w/camo cloaks and sniper rifles - 80pts
5x Scouts w/camo cloaks and sniper rifles - 80pts
9x Infiltrators with Apothecary - 230pts (22pts each and 23 for the Apothecary)
3x Eliminators - 78pts (18 base + 3 for weapon + 3 for camo cloak)
3x Land Speeders: Multi-melta, Typhoon missile launcher - 330pts
Am I missing anything? Is 1873 pts "in the region" of 2000 pts? Are the points costs incorrect and actually worse? Are we missing points costs for equipment? Do they honestly believe an army that includes 600pts of Reivers makes sense?
I have no answers, only questions.
Well 3 eliminators would be 72 points, not 78.
However, I'm not sure if the wargear is included in the characters' costs. Meaning the librarian would have to pay extra for the force sword etc.
Edit: And the Helix is 32 points, not 23.
Edit2: Sigh, you did the math right, just jumbled the numbers. Disregard edit 1
Your 10-man squads of Chaos Space Marines are great for holding objectives and offering fire support while the rest of your fast-moving, melee-focussed army speeds towards the foe to engage them in combat. Alternatively, you can use them to follow up your first wave of daemonically possessed gribblies and put the new beta Bolter Discipline rules to good use at close range.
what matched play world these dudes live in haha
I was going to try to defend them, but, yeah, it's really obviously no one who's thinking about playing the game: they're just looking at the sheet and listing some hypothetical things one might do with those stats etc.
Also, what the hell is that Marine army supposed to do against any armor at all? It's got some lucky 6's, but has basically no answer to anything heavier than a Rhino and feels like it would even struggle against something like another mass power armor army. I mean, you have a handful of places you could stick your few heavier weapons, but they're mostly on fragile units.
Using the leaked points costs I made a quick list of the force they show that is supposed to be around 2k points for marines and I am getting a total of 1873pts. I put cyclone missle lauchers and multimeltas on the land speeders and sniper rifles/camo cloaks on the scouts.
Librarian - 100pts
Captain in Phobos Armor - 110pts
5x Scouts w/camo cloaks and sniper rifles - 80pts
5x Scouts w/camo cloaks and sniper rifles - 80pts
5x Scouts w/camo cloaks and sniper rifles - 80pts
9x Infiltrators with Apothecary - 230pts (22pts each and 23 for the Apothecary)
3x Eliminators - 78pts (18 base + 3 for weapon + 3 for camo cloak)
3x Land Speeders: Multi-melta, Typhoon missile launcher - 330pts
Am I missing anything? Is 1873 pts "in the region" of 2000 pts? Are the points costs incorrect and actually worse? Are we missing points costs for equipment? Do they honestly believe an army that includes 600pts of Reivers makes sense?
I have no answers, only questions.
Well 3 eliminators would be 72 points, not 78.
However, I'm not sure if the wargear is included in the characters' costs. Meaning the librarian would have to pay extra for the force sword etc.
Edit: And the Helix is 32 points, not 23.
Edit2: Sigh, you did the math right, just jumbled the numbers. Disregard edit 1
Good point! I must have added the camo cloaks twice to the Eliminators. If the characters are still more expensive than the leaked costs I don't know how viable they are. The librarian might be useful at any cost because of his unique powers but it will be hard to fit him into a list.
The thing I find interesting about that article is how they only show Chaos units included in the box, but show some Marine units which are not (Scouts, Land speeders, Reivers). Reivers are new, so they are not surprising, but the Scouts especially have quite old models now.
The same is true of Possessed, and I am sure they would not want to tease any upcoming multi-part CSM box just yet, but I am surprised they didn't squeeze the Maulerfiend in to a picture.
I wonder if the presence of a Scouts pic but the lack of a Possessed pic suggests the latter may be getting a new kit? Probably not, but if they think they are too ugly to feature in an article...
Ahriman21 wrote: I disagree with that line of reasoning. You cannot separate the utility of the unit from that of the strat. They exist together and are accessible therefore that cost must be considered in deciding a units validity.
This. I regularly take a heavy bolter or two for hellfire, but don't know if I'd ever consider it at their price without the strat: they're just okay guns without it, and they're so general I'd never bother..
Ahriman21 wrote: I disagree with that line of reasoning. You cannot separate the utility of the unit from that of the strat. They exist together and are accessible therefore that cost must be considered in deciding a units validity.
This. I regularly take a heavy bolter or two for hellfire, but don't know if I'd ever consider it at their price without the strat: they're just okay guns without it, and they're so general I'd never bother..
But as that strategem only applies to Heavy bolters, can't you consider it part of the weapon? It is different for a more general strategem.
Ahriman21 wrote: I disagree with that line of reasoning. You cannot separate the utility of the unit from that of the strat. They exist together and are accessible therefore that cost must be considered in deciding a units validity.
This. I regularly take a heavy bolter or two for hellfire, but don't know if I'd ever consider it at their price without the strat: they're just okay guns without it, and they're so general I'd never bother..
But as that strategem only applies to Heavy bolters, can't you consider it part of the weapon? It is different for a more general strategem.
I tried the same math with the leaked points for the chaos side, and it gives me around 1735 points (no gear on the csm squad, etc). It's still not a lot, so probably the army list they showed is not a real 2000, and more a ''starting point'' for a 2k army.
I see that GW "tactics" articles still haven't changed:
"Take these units in their most basic form and the exact contents of this box and then you will have a great army!"
Reminds me of the days when studio built armies would have Dev/Havoc units with 4 different heavy weapons, or Guard Infantry platoons where the heavy and special weapon choices/combinations were likely decided by ouija board.
VoidSempai wrote: I tried the same math with the leaked points for the chaos side, and it gives me around 1735 points (no gear on the csm squad, etc). It's still not a lot, so probably the army list they showed is not a real 2000, and more a ''starting point'' for a 2k army.
Maybe reinforcement points set aside for summoned Daemons?
Hmmm... I wasn't planning on picking up the boxset, as it didn;t seem all thiat interesting, but I have to say - after reading the rules previews, some of the ideas, weapons, effects, etc are so OTT and action-packed, it could make for some really fun matches! Much more so than the initial primaris of Dark Imperium...
Here's hoping they provide (somehow) Blackstone Fortress rules for the Black Legion side...
Clockpunk wrote: Here's hoping they provide (somehow) Blackstone Fortress rules for the Black Legion side...
?? They already did? Not sure what you're saying?
Oh, I meant the Marines with other (non bolter and knife) weapons, the sorceror, the greater possessed, etc.
Or do you mean they have already, and I just missed it?!
Oh, I totally misunderstood that. Based on the scope of the game and the way it looks like they're handling expansions, I'd be somewhat surprised if they did provide rules. I think it's a fair bit more likely that we'll see more niche bits of the setting, and personally I hope that's the case because BSF is already a bit more chaos-centric than I think is particularly interesting.
Unless we see some big movement after Shadowspear with a lot of new kits, some significant changes to the rules (or additions to them), I'm worried this will be another Chaos release where GW ignores what the fans have been screaming for for years.
Now, the big kicker is that there may be formations, stratagems, and other things in Vigilus 2 that help make Chaos Marines and other things relevant again. I'm not really holding out hope for that, but it's a possibility. They did say that Vigilus 2 will be focused almost entirely on Chaos. We'll see.
Ahriman21 wrote: I disagree with that line of reasoning. You cannot separate the utility of the unit from that of the strat. They exist together and are accessible therefore that cost must be considered in deciding a units validity.
This. I regularly take a heavy bolter or two for hellfire, but don't know if I'd ever consider it at their price without the strat: they're just okay guns without it, and they're so general I'd never bother..
Ah yes. 1 Defiler is good as long as we have CP for the strat. But as soon as you're running multiple deamon engines, then what? You absolutely can separate the utility of a unit from its strats, and you need to because the strat isn't always available. Are you really satisfied with a whole type of unit (daemon engines) that are only worth using because of 1 strat? I would much prefer daemon engines to be a bit better and the strat be a bit worse. Because if it worked that way, then taking larger amounts of them would be viable. In the current situation, the efficiency of taking them drops off fast after the first one. This is bad game design, and you should want better.
That's weird. Usually NZ preorders go up a lot later. Not that I'm complaining.
I like the little scenic bits they give you to add to the bases. Rubble and dead chaos space marines. Dark Vengeance did the same thing with dead cultist heads.
Doesn't seem like that would hold all that much ammo, anyway. The belt itself appears to hold way more than that little drum. Might as well just have a little big longer belt and let it drag on the ground.
GoatboyBeta wrote: Well now its just a case of waiting for the full MPK's. Fingers crossed that neither side has to wait as long as the DG did after Dark Imperium.
Yeah...I kinda figured that would end up being the case. They made a point about how stuff would be interchangeable, not how there would be extras.
Well, I am not overly surprised either. I am going to cut apart the Lieutenant's head and use an Intercessor helmet for him (he has the lower half of an Intercessor helmet on anyway). For the Suppressor, I am going to give him this head. As for the Infiltrator Sergeant, Eliminator Sergeant, and Headache Marine, they will likely not have heads for a bit.
Crimson wrote: I'm gonna give half of my infiltrators a beakie helmet and a studded shoulderpad.
What's the going rate to ship stuff from Finland?
I might put green stuff in the front vents of the Vanguard Veteran helmet and add some small details to the helmet to make it look more like the other Suppressor helmets.
I've said it once and I'll say it again. Obliterators look disgusting from the back. Both models tend to have the same looking back tubes as well. The left side is more of a tube/pipe, while the right side has the ammo exposed. I guess if they make them a multipart kit, keeping that same aesthetic will make it easier to give them different builds, since the same sort of guns will always go on the same side.
GoatboyBeta wrote: Well now its just a case of waiting for the full MPK's. Fingers crossed that neither side has to wait as long as the DG did after Dark Imperium.
How long was that, out of curiosity?
We're on month 3 since Wrath and Rapture, and I'd like an estimate on fiends and flesh hounds in unit boxes, don't really want to buy another W & R box.
My only complaint with the obliterators is their lack of pants. I like the ammo feed bursting out of their shoulder blades and I think with a less contrasty skin color their fleshy arms won't be terrible. The diaper looking crotch plate is a sticking point though. They couldn't give them some armor on the legs or chain mail or something?
I must admit I had zero interest in a new abby, but after seeing this model I see him as the base for a converted Thunder Warrior.
And for those who can't or wont go 'there'......
Spoiler:
A short piece of Fluff by ADB, answering this question: Why does Chaos no longer have any Whirlwinds or Land Speeders when they had them during the heresy?
"Dude, Horus just croaked. What now?"
Abaddon re-tied his topknot. He totally had an idea. "I totally have an idea," he said. The Traitor Legions looked on expectantly. "Here's what we do. We run away."
Many helmed heads nodded. This seemed a wise course of action.
"Good idea," said Erebus.
'Hush." Abaddon frowned at the interruption. "But I think we should leave behind our jetbikes, Dreadclaws, Whirlwinds, Landspeeders - pretty much all anti-grav technology, really - as well as our bikes, attack bikes, and pretty much anything else we've used so far."
Fewer helms nodded this time. "Dude," said Lucius the Eternal, "we might need all that stuff. Some of that stuff is rad."
"Nah, I've made up my mind. Let's just go."
"But..."
"Let's. Just. Go." Abaddon waved the Talon of Horus. Its scythe-blade fingers made clickety-click sounds.
"Okay, let's just go," agreed Lucius.
Kharn wasn't so easily placated. "What about Cyclone Launchers? Because I saw those in Horus Heresy: Collected Visions, so we must be using th--"
"I feel like I'm talking to myself, here." Abaddon pointed a claw at the World Eater. It poked Kharn in the eye.
"Ow, Jesus, man. Okay, okay. We'll go."
"Yeah, that's what I thought."
Abaddon pimp-walked from the room, strutting like he owned the place.
"Hey, what about this conversion beamer?" asked Typhus. "Couldn't we use these in Rogue Trader? These are awesome. They go, like, FWOOOOOSH."
"Leave it!" Abaddon's voice called from the other room. Typhus put it down, grumbling.
Fabius Bile sort of shrugged. "So, uh, can I come with you guys? Because I was checking the passenger lists, and none of the Legions are taking their Apothecaries. I mean... don't you need us?"
Lucius patted his brother on the shoulder. "It's okay, man. We'll allude to the Apothecaries in the background text. I mean, you won't get to ever do anything, but you'll sort of be there in the fluff, y'know? A bit? Maybe?"
"Balls to this. I'm leaving the Legion. I'll make my own rules."
Kharn snorted. "Your rules will be lame for competitive play. Just watch. And people will call you Fabulous Bill."
The Traitors walked from the chamber, out to the landing pad. It was deserted.
"Uh, Abbs?"
Abaddon turned to Ahriman. "S'up?"
"Um." The Thousand Son gestured to the empty landing pad. "Where are all our gunships?"
Abaddon ignored him. "Weren't you red a minute ago?"
"We're blue now. It's... it's this whole... thing. Look, seriously, where are our Thunderhawks?"
"Oh, right. Them." Abaddon toyed with his topknot, swishing it back and forth, like a kitten with a fluffy toy. "We won't need those. We can run everywhere and stuff. Or push Rhinos out of hangers and ride them through the atmosphere. It'll be cool."
The Traitors shared a glance. This wasn't going well. Abaddon noticed their hesitation, and sought to calm them. "Relaaaaax. I'll invent new stuff. Like... spider robots with daemons in, and they have claws and stuff. They'll defile things. Maybe they can be called Defilotrons. It'll be sweet. And they'll have a gun on their chests, and tiny little heads. What? Why are you looking at me like that? You just wait. We'll rock this place all to hell."
Less miniatures and no rule book or something of equivalence to replace it. Yes they are different miniatures/factions, but given its expected that full multipart kits of the same kindwill come out sooner or later, why would you buy this other than to get the new things now.
$65 (AUS) over DI for that much less is just crackers IMHO.
Less miniatures and no rule book or something of equivalence to replace it. Yes they are different miniatures/factions, but given its expected that full multipart kits of the same kindwill come out sooner or later, why would you buy this other than to get the new things now.
$65 (AUS) over DI for that much less is just crackers IMHO.
Maybe its a way for them to justify pricing the separate models super high. Why pay for two obliterators and a venomcrawler, you can easily just buy the boxset instead, and save 50$ or something like that.
Less miniatures and no rule book or something of equivalence to replace it. Yes they are different miniatures/factions, but given its expected that full multipart kits of the same kindwill come out sooner or later, why would you buy this other than to get the new things now.
$65 (AUS) over DI for that much less is just crackers IMHO.
Maybe its a way for them to justify pricing the separate models super high. Why pay for two obliterators and a venomcrawler, you can easily just buy the boxset instead, and save 50$ or something like that.
This thought depresses me more. :C
I could see the new Chaos Marines being over $100 tbh. Current new kits of 10 tend to be around $100, and these guys will be, “packed to the brim with all the heavy weapons and special weapons you’ll ever need!”
I don't like the price but in all fairness 3 sm characters that are normally 30-35, 1 csm that's 30, a dual box that's probably 30 for the super possessed, 2 40 troop units, two 30-40 sm units, a Walker and a admech robot sized double box.
At 30 for the characters that's 150 in characters, 80 in 10 man troop choices, 60 for the two 3 man sm units, 40 for the Walker and 50 for the oblits and you get a retail of 480ish total. Now reduce that by 25% because easy to build and your still around 350 so 50% off. Problem is the cost of single characters. Put those at reasonable 15 each and you're sitting at a savings of 90 instead but that's still a solid discount.
Watching an unboxing video right now. Here are the missing Vanguard Warlord Traits (only Phobos Characters may take these):
Shoot and Fade (After making a shooting attack, your Warlord can move as if it was the movement phase. Must advance as well)
Master of the Vanguard (Add 1 to all move, advance, and charge rolls to all Chapter units within 6" of your Warlord)
Stealth Adept (-1 from all to-hit rolls against your Warlord.)
Marksman's Honours (Add 1 to damage characteristic for ALL shooting weapons your Warlord uses. Reroll hit and wound rolls for your Warlord's shooting attacks. Does not affect grenades, but DOES affect relics)
They didn't go over points. Boo.
And the CSMWL traits (only Psykers may take these):
Arch-Sorcerer (Your warlord knows one additional power)
Reader of Fate (Once per battle, reroll a failed psychic test or Deny the Witch. In addition, every time you successfully manifest a psychic powers, you gain 1 CP)
Infernal Gaze (Smite at 24" instead of 18")
Daemon-linked Power (Add 1 to WL Strength trait. Reroll damage rolls for Force weapons, including relics)
The clear winner is Reader of Fate, IMO.
Edit: Can confirm. Oblits are 115 pts each. Venomcrawler is 130 pts. I am thinking the leaked points are real.
Has anyone checked out the 360 degree views on the GW website? The length of the shoulder mounted assault cannon on that one Obliterator just looks ridiculous.
FrothingMuppet wrote: Yes they are different miniatures/factions, but given its expected that full multipart kits of the same kindwill come out sooner or later, why would you buy this other than to get the new things now.
*looks at 7th ed starter chosen*
Yeah, about that, you can expect a lot of things that may never happen. I'd really hope these get released multi-part separately, but I'm not banking on that.
the other two were already leaked. Warp Lord and Devourer of Magic. I listed the four other traits in my post.
Edit: Also, the SM Warlord Traits are only available to Phobos Characters. Boo. Only Psykers can take the CSM traits, but they all affect psychic powers, so...
Its just too pricey for what it is really, I cant justify paying that for the handfull of models that I like and to be honest its a bit much for me to buy a load in to resell this time as well.
Having said that it could be much worse, I could live down under !!
the other two were already leaked. Warp Lord and Devourer of Magic. I listed the four other traits in my post.
Oh whoops, I'm metally deficient. I just saw the loyalist ones.
These seem pretty good except for the Smite one which is boring.
I was probably editing the post to add them in while you saw it. And agreed all but the Smite (trash) one look good. I like Reader of Fate the most, but Warp Lord seems potent.
The reader of fate wl trait must be wrong. Maybe you gain the CP whe you reroll the psychic test. As written is totaly OP (even more if you can take it with any chaos psyker as it seems... Image this wl trait in Magnus )
zinch wrote: The reader of fate wl trait must be wrong. Maybe you gain the CP whe you reroll the psychic test. As written is totaly OP (even more if you can take it with any chaos psyker as it seems)
I believe it's: "Once per battle, you can re-roll failed Psychic test or Deny the Witch test for your warlord. In addition, if your army is battle-forged, roll a D6 each time your Warlord successfully manifests a psychic power, on 6 you gain 1 additional Command Point."
zinch wrote: The reader of fate wl trait must be wrong. Maybe you gain the CP whe you reroll the psychic test. As written is totaly OP (even more if you can take it with any chaos psyker as it seems)
I believe it's: "Once per battle, you can re-roll failed Psychic test or Deny the Witch test for your warlord. In addition, if your army is battle-forged, roll a D6 each time your Warlord successfully manifests a psychic power, on 6 you gain 1 additional Command Point."
zinch wrote: The reader of fate wl trait must be wrong. Maybe you gain the CP whe you reroll the psychic test. As written is totaly OP (even more if you can take it with any chaos psyker as it seems)
I believe it's: "Once per battle, you can re-roll failed Psychic test or Deny the Witch test for your warlord. In addition, if your army is battle-forged, roll a D6 each time your Warlord successfully manifests a psychic power, on 6 you gain 1 additional Command Point."
This has A LOT more sense
Yeah, I have been up since yesterday morning, so my paraphrasing kinda sucks. That and stupid hospital air is drying my contacts out like mad right now.
I don't remember if I said it before, but the leaked points are correct, even if they are ridiculously stupid for some units.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Has anyone checked out the 360 degree views on the GW website? The length of the shoulder mounted assault cannon on that one Obliterator just looks ridiculous.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Marksman's Honours (Add 1 to damage characteristic for ALL shooting weapons your Warlord uses. Reroll hit and wound rolls for your Warlord's shooting attacks. Does not affect grenades, but DOES affect relics)
casvalremdeikun wrote: Marksman's Honours (Add 1 to damage characteristic for ALL shooting weapons your Warlord uses. Reroll hit and wound rolls for your Warlord's shooting attacks. Does not affect grenades, but DOES affect relics)
What relics?
I would bet you bottom dollar there will be some in Vigilus Ablaze. Otherwise Crimson Fists and Imperial Fists both have relic Bolt Pistols that any one of the three Characters could take. The Crimson Fists one would be nasty AF with the +1 damage and reroll to hit and wound.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Marksman's Honours (Add 1 to damage characteristic for ALL shooting weapons your Warlord uses. Reroll hit and wound rolls for your Warlord's shooting attacks. Does not affect grenades, but DOES affect relics)
What relics?
I would bet you bottom dollar there will be some in Vigilus Ablaze. Otherwise Crimson Fists and Imperial Fists both have relic Bolt Pistols that any one of the three Characters could take. The Crimson Fists one would be nasty AF with the +1 damage and reroll to hit and wound.
The idea of a Marine character actually being nasty with a bolt pistol is intriguing.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone know if the new Primaris can be taken with Deathwatch? I have a crimson fist army but run my list as Deathwatch codex as I prefer it.
The official answer is basically “not yet.” Not now, but they’ve all but confirmed that we’ll be able to do so when the multipart kits come out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Does the mini codex have anything about chapter tactics or legion traits? I’m wondering whether they’re changing the Black Legion’s rather lacklustre trait.
Sigh, one more thing I don't like - I was wondering why transfer sheet wasn't shown. I found one in unboxing video and it turns out it's pretty garbage - not only Ultramarines only, it's tiny, similar size as single squad transfer sheets. They should have just thrown in Dark Imperium transfers in and called it a day, would be vastly more useful than this post-it sized lazy token one...
casvalremdeikun wrote: Marksman's Honours (Add 1 to damage characteristic for ALL shooting weapons your Warlord uses. Reroll hit and wound rolls for your Warlord's shooting attacks. Does not affect grenades, but DOES affect relics)
What relics?
I would bet you bottom dollar there will be some in Vigilus Ablaze. Otherwise Crimson Fists and Imperial Fists both have relic Bolt Pistols that any one of the three Characters could take. The Crimson Fists one would be nasty AF with the +1 damage and reroll to hit and wound.
The idea of a Marine character actually being nasty with a bolt pistol is intriguing.
Hmm. The new librarian would qualify to have that if taken in a liberator strike force. That’s a non-terrible option, but usually I think he’d be better off with the +1 to hit trait and no meaningful gun.
To be honest as crimson fists the trait that doubles your scoring model count is kind of a no-brainer, especially in the missions from the current CA with scoring every turn. It’s kind of too good to consider mucking about with fancy bolt pistols.
Just take a WL trait and your SM leader can be as deadly a gunslinger as a Kellermorph! Well, one of his three arms at least
The libby would be a perfect leader for the Silver Skull KT I thought about doing, I thought about a couple of Reivers and a Termi librarian - mostly as a joke, but he could teleport were his team infiltrates - but this guy is so perfect for a KT. And he'd be my favourite sculpt in a while if not for Abaddon. And I'm not just trying to convince myself to hit the "preorder now" button!
Gonna be honest. I am disappointed with this release. The cost of the box plus the content of the CSM part... This is Dark Vengeance all over again. Cool sculpts with poor rules and stats compared to the Imperium side. I'm out of this. GW has diaappointed me for the last time.
Khornate25 wrote: Gonna be honest. I am disappointed with this release. The cost of the box plus the content of the CSM part... This is Dark Vengeance all over again. Cool sculpts with poor rules and stats compared to the Imperium side. I'm out of this. GW has diaappointed me for the last time.
The good thing is though, points and rules can change. So if the new sculpts are good then at some stage the rules can be good for them too. Not to mention a small point drop for the Obliterators would make them ace, and they did point drops for the Space Marine and DG codexes when they dropped after Dark Imperium's release.
These minis would look really good with those from Dark Vengeance.
I wonder if any chance the minis from Dark Vengeance will get a release, as separate kits maybe?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Khornate25 wrote: Gonna be honest. I am disappointed with this release. The cost of the box plus the content of the CSM part... This is Dark Vengeance all over again. Cool sculpts with poor rules and stats compared to the Imperium side. I'm out of this. GW has diaappointed me for the last time.
I get the feeling that your words are very true for many in the chaos community. Atleast you are getting models, which probably looks good for the future. However everything choas side seems overcosted TBH. You need to be a master strategist to get the most out of these minis.
I don't like a lot in this box, but I do like a significant portion. I just have to figure out if the cost of getting those individually is too close to just getting the box to justify not picking it up.
Wants:
Libraraian
Lt
Infiltrators
Eliminators
Master of possession
Chaos marine sqd
Looking at current ebay listings, that would come to...$170. So I can get the entire box for $150 which now makes it a no-brainer. The cost may seem high, but when you break it down into it's individual contents, it's not too bad.
bullyboy wrote: Looking at current ebay listings, that would come to...$170. So I can get the entire box for $150 which now makes it a no-brainer. The cost may seem high, but when you break it down into it's individual contents, it's not too bad.
Well, that assumes that the compared prices are reasonable. Personally, almost all my new GW purchases are boxed sets because they don't price me out of the game. Comparing the prices for starter sets to other overpriced other models or to the cost of the starter sets broken down such that those taking the time to do so get a profit does not establish that the boxed set is a good price.
Khornate25 wrote: Gonna be honest. I am disappointed with this release. The cost of the box plus the content of the CSM part... This is Dark Vengeance all over again. Cool sculpts with poor rules and stats compared to the Imperium side. I'm out of this. GW has diaappointed me for the last time.
The good thing is though, points and rules can change. So if the new sculpts are good then at some stage the rules can be good for them too. Not to mention a small point drop for the Obliterators would make them ace, and they did point drops for the Space Marine and DG codexes when they dropped after Dark Imperium's release.
Just one problem, csm are like tacticals, just bad. Since well the whole 8th and even before, and whilest you were able to customize them before with marks, melee+bolter + BP now you are not anymore.
I've heard a rumor somewhere that the normal CSM will be able to pick up the new big gun in normal CSM squad, and that it is a heavy 8 s5 -1 AP weapon.
Just to clarify it's from Heavy in FWS shadowspear codex review. He responded to a question saying that CSM are not really supposed to get much from the shadowspear box because vigilus 2 is almost all about them. And then he said that, for exemple, there is a new Heavy8 S5 gun coming for 20 pts. But he doesn't want to reveal much. You can check the video if you want but it's in french.
I am really hoping that Vigilus 2 isn't going to be CSM Dex 1.5 and is instead like the Kauyon book was for Tau Empire: an optional way of getting the updates plus something else.
Khornate25 wrote: Gonna be honest. I am disappointed with this release. The cost of the box plus the content of the CSM part... This is Dark Vengeance all over again. Cool sculpts with poor rules and stats compared to the Imperium side. I'm out of this. GW has diaappointed me for the last time.
The good thing is though, points and rules can change. So if the new sculpts are good then at some stage the rules can be good for them too. Not to mention a small point drop for the Obliterators would make them ace, and they did point drops for the Space Marine and DG codexes when they dropped after Dark Imperium's release.
Just one problem, csm are like tacticals, just bad. Since well the whole 8th and even before, and whilest you were able to customize them before with marks, melee+bolter + BP now you are not anymore.
So you really, honestly believe that that's how it's supposed to work? As if that datasheet from the box is meant to replace the current CSM squad one. Dude.
How are Abaddon's stats in the current edition of 40k? Is there any indication or rumor that they'll change with the new model? I'd doubt it as he doesn't seem to be undergoing a big fluff change unlike Marneus SuperPrimarisizeMe Calgar but I figured I'd ask.
Kendo wrote: Heavy 8!!? Holy cow. Now that would be worth taking a couple basic chaos marines for.
Expect it to be short-ranged though, since all gatling weapons are: Onslaught-, Punisher- and Taurox Gatling Cannons (and Assault Cannons) are all 24".
The Heavy Onslaught GC is 30", but that gun is bigger than a Primaris Marine.
For 20 points, assuming 24" range as well, it's essentially an improved Assault Cannons: 4 pts cheaper and 2 extra shots, but at -1 strength.
The cynical part of me thinks that it's too good for CSM, so I'm expecting the "Chaos GC" to have 18" range, but hoping for 24".
warboss wrote: How are Abaddon's stats in the current edition of 40k? Is there any indication or rumor that they'll change with the new model? I'd doubt it as he doesn't seem to be undergoing a big fluff change unlike Marneus SuperPrimarisizeMe Calgar but I figured I'd ask.
A 240pts Chapter master in terminator armour with a ton of attacks, basically. From what I can tell he's pretty beefy, but I've not played with or versus him yet
For everyone awaiting more news on Abaddon, we’re happy to announce that you can own him for yourself soon! The Warmaster will be available to pre-order before the end of the month.
Loads of the new Khorne releases will be usable in your Warhammer 40,000 Chaos army, with Vigilus Ablaze providing new rules for Skulltaker and the Bloodmaster, as well as the Skull Altar. Combined with the Daemonkin from Shadowspear, you’ll be able to make some seriously brutal armies.
We’ll be previewing what the future holds for Khorne all throughout next week – so make sure to check back tomorrow! In the meantime, let us know what you’re looking forward to most on the Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Age of Sigmar Facebook pages.
We have have maybe new bikes and now maybe new 'zerkers???
Would be amazing if we got new terminators, new bikes, new havoks and new 'zerkers. (In addition to what we already have.) In other words I should hold my breath (but a man can dream).
For everyone awaiting more news on Abaddon, we’re happy to announce that you can own him for yourself soon! The Warmaster will be available to pre-order before the end of the month.
Loads of the new Khorne releases will be usable in your Warhammer 40,000 Chaos army, with Vigilus Ablaze providing new rules for Skulltaker and the Bloodmaster, as well as the Skull Altar. Combined with the Daemonkin from Shadowspear, you’ll be able to make some seriously brutal armies.
We’ll be previewing what the future holds for Khorne all throughout next week – so make sure to check back tomorrow! In the meantime, let us know what you’re looking forward to most on the Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Age of Sigmar Facebook pages.
warboss wrote: How are Abaddon's stats in the current edition of 40k? Is there any indication or rumor that they'll change with the new model? I'd doubt it as he doesn't seem to be undergoing a big fluff change unlike Marneus SuperPrimarisizeMe Calgar but I figured I'd ask.
A 240pts Chapter master in terminator armour with a ton of attacks, basically. From what I can tell he's pretty beefy, but I've not played with or versus him yet
Aye. He's pretty beefy (lots of mid hitting attacks, fairly durable with termie armour, 4++ and halves damage) and a decent commander too (adds command points, buffs moral and provides re-rolls). I'd say he could use some tweaking with the type of his damage output (some form of mortal wound dealing from his daemon sword ideally) and maybe a different WL trait but doesn't need any major changes.
ceorron wrote: We have have maybe new bikes and now maybe new 'zerkers???
Would be amazing if we got new terminators, new bikes, new havoks and new 'zerkers. (In addition to what we already have.) In other words I should hold my breath (but a man can dream).
I would say that those berzerkers look exactly like the components of the current ones. Only, you know, better proportions.
Khornate25 wrote: Gonna be honest. I am disappointed with this release. The cost of the box plus the content of the CSM part... This is Dark Vengeance all over again. Cool sculpts with poor rules and stats compared to the Imperium side. I'm out of this. GW has diaappointed me for the last time.
The good thing is though, points and rules can change. So if the new sculpts are good then at some stage the rules can be good for them too. Not to mention a small point drop for the Obliterators would make them ace, and they did point drops for the Space Marine and DG codexes when they dropped after Dark Imperium's release.
Just one problem, csm are like tacticals, just bad. Since well the whole 8th and even before, and whilest you were able to customize them before with marks, melee+bolter + BP now you are not anymore.
So you really, honestly believe that that's how it's supposed to work? As if that datasheet from the box is meant to replace the current CSM squad one. Dude.
No, read again, i stated before, where csm had these abilities.
Not Online!!! wrote: Since well the whole 8th and even before, and whilest you were able to customize them before with marks, melee+bolter + BP now you are not anymore.
So you really, honestly believe that that's how it's supposed to work? As if that datasheet from the box is meant to replace the current CSM squad one. Dude.
No, read again, i stated before, where csm had these abilities.
What I am reading there is that you claim that CSM squads are no longer customizable. What part did I misread?
Not Online!!! wrote: Since well the whole 8th and even before, and whilest you were able to customize them before with marks, melee+bolter + BP now you are not anymore.
So you really, honestly believe that that's how it's supposed to work? As if that datasheet from the box is meant to replace the current CSM squad one. Dude.
No, read again, i stated before, where csm had these abilities.
What I am reading there is that you claim that CSM squads are no longer customizable. What part did I misread?
Since 8th edition, i never stated the box squad would become the standard csm squad.
I just pointed out that compared to older editions they lost the only thing they had counting for them.
spiralingcadaver wrote: The berserker banner looks new, but the rest of the armor looks like they're trying their damnedest to make the 3rd edition berserkers look current.
The possessed look they have is different than the models, though, yes? It's been ages since they've had pistols IIRC.
Well, that art is already quite old, so I wouldn't read to much into it.
Not Online!!! wrote: Since 8th edition, i never stated the box squad would become the standard csm squad.
I just pointed out that compared to older editions they lost the only thing they had counting for them.
Ah, now I get it. I read it as if it was compared to previous editions as well as 8th edition. You're simply saying that you can no longer have both chainsword and boltgun on the same guy. Yeah, that's a shame. Although that'd make them way better than regular tacticals, wouldn't it? Anyhow, clearly off topic now, sorry.
Not Online!!! wrote: Since 8th edition, i never stated the box squad would become the standard csm squad.
I just pointed out that compared to older editions they lost the only thing they had counting for them.
Ah, now I get it. I read it as if it was compared to previous editions as well as 8th edition. You're simply saying that you can no longer have both chainsword and boltgun on the same guy. Yeah, that's a shame. Although that'd make them way better than regular tacticals, wouldn't it? Anyhow, clearly off topic now, sorry.
Debatable, was also that way previous for the same cost, the models are great however, just wish there would've been a full Set of either bolter or chainsword marines instead of that misch masch.
warboss wrote: How are Abaddon's stats in the current edition of 40k? Is there any indication or rumor that they'll change with the new model? I'd doubt it as he doesn't seem to be undergoing a big fluff change unlike Marneus SuperPrimarisizeMe Calgar but I figured I'd ask.
A 240pts Chapter master in terminator armour with a ton of attacks, basically. From what I can tell he's pretty beefy, but I've not played with or versus him yet
Aye. He's pretty beefy (lots of mid hitting attacks, fairly durable with termie armour, 4++ and halves damage) and a decent commander too (adds command points, buffs moral and provides re-rolls). I'd say he could use some tweaking with the type of his damage output (some form of mortal wound dealing from his daemon sword ideally) and maybe a different WL trait but doesn't need any major changes.
Thanks. My prior experience with him is a few codex versions out of date but he was definitely an underestimated beatstick back in 3rd through 5th.
warboss wrote: How are Abaddon's stats in the current edition of 40k? Is there any indication or rumor that they'll change with the new model? I'd doubt it as he doesn't seem to be undergoing a big fluff change unlike Marneus SuperPrimarisizeMe Calgar but I figured I'd ask.
A 240pts Chapter master in terminator armour with a ton of attacks, basically. From what I can tell he's pretty beefy, but I've not played with or versus him yet
Aye. He's pretty beefy (lots of mid hitting attacks, fairly durable with termie armour, 4++ and halves damage) and a decent commander too (adds command points, buffs moral and provides re-rolls). I'd say he could use some tweaking with the type of his damage output (some form of mortal wound dealing from his daemon sword ideally) and maybe a different WL trait but doesn't need any major changes.
Thanks. My prior experience with him is a few codex versions out of date but he was definitely an underestimated beatstick back in 3rd through 5th.
In the past he had problems due to not having Eternal Warrior. He's pretty solid now. The biggest issue is how to deploy and use him (other than cultist swarms) and the fact that his legion trait and warlord trait are lackluster.
How new is that Bloodletter/Khorne Berserker art? You can see one of the older possessed in it, which doesn't bode well for us getting an upgraded kit.
GaroRobe wrote: How new is that Bloodletter/Khorne Berserker art? You can see one of the older possessed in it, which doesn't bode well for us getting an upgraded kit.
So reading the article I think new bezerkers are a pipe dream, sure they will eventually but it's a lot more likely we are just getting the AOS khorne units, basically cultists in 40k, tzaangors equivalents and that is a bad thing to me, aesthetically they do not fit into 40k, hopefully I'm wrong and it's just khorne deamons though.
Formosa wrote: So reading the article I think new bezerkers are a pipe dream, sure they will eventually but it's a lot more likely we are just getting the AOS khorne units, basically cultists in 40k, tzaangors equivalents and that is a bad thing to me, aesthetically they do not fit into 40k, hopefully I'm wrong and it's just khorne deamons though.
more likely it will be new demon models we get rules for.
Warhammer Community wrote:Loads of the new Khorne releases will be usable in your Warhammer 40,000 Chaos army, with Vigilus Ablaze providing new rules for Skulltaker and the Bloodmaster, as well as the Skull Altar. Combined with the Daemonkin from Shadowspear, you’ll be able to make some seriously brutal armies.
The new stuff is usable, not all of "Blades of Khorne" stuff. Skulltaker is getting new rules, the Bloodmaster is a new unit and the Skull Altar is a new item as well.
But hey. Let's just assume that they're going to put Bloodreavers and the like in, cause they did that with the Maggotkin items too right? Tzeentch got their stuff put in...but nobody else has.
Tzeentch didn't even get all their stuff put in. There are no Kairic Acolytes in 40K last time I checked.
But putting Beastmen in 40K, or just Khorngors or whatever they're called, I don't see that as a problem.
Anyway, this is the AoS Khorne release, not a 40K one. Just as there's cross over with certain units doesn't mean that all units will cross over or what this is all 40K is getting.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Tzeentch didn't even get all their stuff put in. There are no Kairic Acolytes in 40K last time I checked.
But putting Beastmen in 40K, or just Khorngors or whatever they're called, I don't see that as a problem.
Anyway, this is the AoS Khorne release, not a 40K one. Just as there's cross over with certain units doesn't mean that all units will cross over or what this is all 40K is getting.
Yes, let's get even more reasons not to run Chaos Space Marines in a Chaos Space Marines army! And then when they do the big Slaanesh release, they can do the same thing only with Boobgors and whatnot.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Yes, let's get even more reasons not to run Chaos Space Marines in a Chaos Space Marines army! And then when they do the big Slaanesh release, they can do the same thing only with Boobgors and whatnot.
I want all the Chaos forces to have more "Lost & The Damned" choices, rather than just CSMs.
I hope we get some great Khorne and Slaanesh "mortal" units (be they Beastmen or Cultist analogues). I'm not saying they should straight up add Skullcrushers or Hellstriders to the Khorne or Slaanesh lists, but it would be nice to have something else in there.
I'd rather they have a separate book all together for Renegades/Lost and Damned and give them the GSC treatment, they plug into CSM armies if you want and can also take select units from AM.
NurglesR0T wrote: I'd rather they have a separate book all together for Renegades/Lost and Damned and give them the GSC treatment, they plug into CSM armies if you want and can also take select units from AM.
Keep the Heretic Astartes as Legion focused.
That is what I would prefer as well. It would open up Chaos for a degree of Soup that Loyalists have, which isn't the worst thing. I would love for there to be things like Dark Mechanicus (lots of Daemon Engines), Renegades, and Lost and Damned that exist outside or just being options for CSM to take for cheap CP.
I hope the “leak” of plastic new traitor guard coming in the second wave of chaos goodies had truth to it. The BSF guard models are sooooooo nice and scale perfectly with the new CSM. A couple of them also look like they’re women so that bodes well for people that want lady guard, assuming GW ever gets around to updating them.
zend wrote: I hope the “leak” of plastic new traitor guard coming in the second wave of chaos goodies had truth to it. The BSF guard models are sooooooo nice and scale perfectly with the new CSM. A couple of them also look like they’re women so that bodes well for people that want lady guard, assuming GW ever gets around to updating them.
I hope so. I'd love to add a (dis)loyal 32 to my DG
zend wrote: I hope the “leak” of plastic new traitor guard coming in the second wave of chaos goodies had truth to it. The BSF guard models are sooooooo nice and scale perfectly with the new CSM. A couple of them also look like they’re women so that bodes well for people that want lady guard, assuming GW ever gets around to updating them.
I'm not surprised that they're bouncing from Shadowspear to Blades of Khorne. It gives people that got Shadowspear a bit of breathing room before the next Chaos Marine releases go up.
Will be interesting to see if there's any Chaos stuff at GAMA revealed tomorrow.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Tzeentch didn't even get all their stuff put in. There are no Kairic Acolytes in 40K last time I checked.
Sad but true, they did not include the Thaumaturg or Gaunt Summoners in neither K-sons or Daemon codex.
There is a drawn picture of a Kairic acolyte in Codex: Thousand Sons though, by the fluff about cultists.
I was really looking forward to including Gaunt summoners in 40k lists, but I guess they are to closely related to Archaon
Not Online!!! wrote: just wish there would've been a full Set of either bolter or chainsword marines instead of that misch masch.
Yeah, fully agree. But I guess we'll be able to mix and balance the squads once the CSM squad box comes out. Until then we'll have to deal with the awkwardness
Not Online!!! wrote: just wish there would've been a full Set of either bolter or chainsword marines instead of that misch masch.
Yeah, fully agree. But I guess we'll be able to mix and balance the squads once the CSM squad box comes out. Until then we'll have to deal with the awkwardness
Tbf i wait for the box Set and havoc Set and maybee dabble in kitbashing for a MoP and greater Possessed.
Just noticed something. Does anyone else think the librarian looks a bit like Kylo Ren in that shot from the Force Awakens trailer? He's just missing the cross guard on his force sword.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Tzeentch didn't even get all their stuff put in. There are no Kairic Acolytes in 40K last time I checked.
But putting Beastmen in 40K, or just Khorngors or whatever they're called, I don't see that as a problem.
Anyway, this is the AoS Khorne release, not a 40K one. Just as there's cross over with certain units doesn't mean that all units will cross over or what this is all 40K is getting.
Well, there are a couple of instances where kairics are shown as chaos cultists in the tsons codex but that's it.
We also got an official conversion guide from duncan shortly after the codex that amounted to "it takes the chainsword and autopistol from the tzaangor sprue or else it gets the hose again"
Fair to say they are Heretic Astartes, so put them in the Heretic Astartes book
Um, no. If there is SM faction that needs a book (and could be pretty unique) it's the renegade SM. Something along the lines of Badab War renegades, or 30K Blackshields. Marines who don't follow chaos (at least not openly, yes) but also don't give a damn about past loyalist limitations. Unique weapons, be it salvaged from other imperial or xeno forces, chimeric armour marks and non-standard officers, xeno and pirate allies, the works. Both Tyrant Legion and Blackshield lists (despite only a handful of unique units) shown far more character and customization than wolfwolf totally-not-tactical-squad or dangles totally-not-terminators and I'd gladly trade both of these books for something less of a cookie-cutter different-paint-codex.
Alas, GW for some reason took huge dump on big HH plot hook that could have served as perfect justification for this so it ain't gonna happen
Fair to say they are Heretic Astartes, so put them in the Heretic Astartes book
I disagree. Renegade Chapters need to be handled in the vanilla codex via replacing of keywords. It would be a single page.
Yeah, because that won't cause issues.
As it stands? Renegades don't really have a "best fit" option. Ideally they should get their own Codex or be in the generic CSM book with a note that they can take a select few items from the Space Marines book.
Fair to say they are Heretic Astartes, so put them in the Heretic Astartes book
I disagree. Renegade Chapters need to be handled in the vanilla codex via replacing of keywords. It would be a single page.
Yeah, because that won't cause issues.
As it stands? Renegades don't really have a "best fit" option. Ideally they should get their own Codex or be in the generic CSM book with a note that they can take a select few items from the Space Marines book.
Regardless in which codex you put it, it depends
How wholeheartidly the renegades have fallen.
spartiatis wrote: Hello! Question: do we know if in the shadowspear box, the SM miniatures have a helmet option or are they just as monopose as they seem?
They're no more monopose than the full kits likely will be, but the only items that have optional heads are the two generic Eliminators. The Sergeant does not get a head option.
spartiatis wrote: Hello! Question: do we know if in the shadowspear box, the SM miniatures have a helmet option or are they just as monopose as they seem?
I believe there are some additional head options, but not a ton. Looking a the sprues, I can only find 2 Eliminators and one is the Sgt on a separate sprue. That leads me to assume that the sprue with the couching Eliminator comes in the box twice, meaning the non-Sgt Elims are the same model However, we know there are different heads for each on the non-Sgt guys, so there must be multiple head options.
All the heads also look to be separate from the bodies, so while I am sure they will be that peg that orients the head in a specific direction, you can also just chop that off and turn the helmets however you want.
Fair to say they are Heretic Astartes, so put them in the Heretic Astartes book
I disagree. Renegade Chapters need to be handled in the vanilla codex via replacing of keywords. It would be a single page.
Yeah, because that won't cause issues.
As it stands? Renegades don't really have a "best fit" option. Ideally they should get their own Codex or be in the generic CSM book with a note that they can take a select few items from the Space Marines book.
Regardless in which codex you put it, it depends was wholeheartidly how deep the renegades have fallen.
Any Chapter that fell THAT deep was going to be represented by the Legions in the end. We both know that.
As is, standard Renegades having all these Daemon engines and suddenly losing a bunch of stuff at the same time is silly. At most they should have just a few daemonic units (Possessed, Spawn, Warp Talons), and the HQ units can attempt summoning I guess. Replace a few Keywords so they ally smoothly with the Legions, RoH, and Daemons. Bam, done.
Yep keyword replacement would work, the rare deamon engines etc. Are handled by forge world, chaos keyword gets you deamons and a "no primaris" rule handles that issue too, then they have the full gambit of marine stuff, deamons and deamon engines through forge world.
Keyword replacement is a non-starter. Renegades are Chaos Space Marines so they use what comes from the Chaos Space Marines box and that's it. No more, no less. Rules and fluff exist to describe what's in the box. Not the other way around.
The problem with renegades isn't that the rules force them to use legion equipment - it's that GW haven't thought of a reasonable fluff explanation why they need to use legion equipment. Not for lack of creativity, mind you. Afterall, they've come up with fluff justifications to revive dead primarchs and tear up the venerable Codex Astartes in favor of embiggened space marines in AssHelblaster squads so if they really cared to I'm sure they could figure out why renegades use autocannons. If they cared to (they don't).
Ultimately renegade marines are mooks and not deserving of the kind of narrative investment needed to explain them. GW doesn't care why renegades are the way they are and neither should you.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Keyword replacement is a non-starter. Renegades are Chaos Space Marines so they use what comes from the Chaos Space Marines box and that's it. No more, no less. Rules and fluff exist to describe what's in the box. Not the other way around.
The problem with renegades isn't that the rules force them to use legion equipment - it's that GW haven't thought of a reasonable fluff explanation why they need to use legion equipment. Not for lack of creativity, mind you. Afterall, they've come up with fluff justifications to revive dead primarchs and tear up the venerable Codex Astartes in favor of embiggened space marines in AssHelblaster squads so if they really cared to I'm sure they could figure out why renegades use autocannons. If they cared to (they don't).
Ultimately renegade marines are mooks and not deserving of the kind of narrative investment needed to explain them. GW doesn't care why renegades are the way they are and neither should you.
A: don't tell me what i have to think /say.
B: unlike with the legions which got completely fethed up the renegade lore atleast makes some sense.
C: there are less strings attached narrative wise ergo more freedom unlike with failbaddon the (h)armless and the other main CSM Champions.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Ultimately renegade marines are mooks and not deserving of the kind of narrative investment needed to explain them. GW doesn't care why renegades are the way they are and neither should you.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Keyword replacement is a non-starter. Renegades are Chaos Space Marines so they use what comes from the Chaos Space Marines box and that's it. No more, no less. Rules and fluff exist to describe what's in the box. Not the other way around.
The problem with renegades isn't that the rules force them to use legion equipment - it's that GW haven't thought of a reasonable fluff explanation why they need to use legion equipment. Not for lack of creativity, mind you. Afterall, they've come up with fluff justifications to revive dead primarchs and tear up the venerable Codex Astartes in favor of embiggened space marines in AssHelblaster squads so if they really cared to I'm sure they could figure out why renegades use autocannons. If they cared to (they don't).
Ultimately renegade marines are mooks and not deserving of the kind of narrative investment needed to explain them. GW doesn't care why renegades are the way they are and neither should you.
In the lore there are a number of Renegade Space Marine chapters that aren't Chaos Space marines... Some chapters that simply developed mutations, others that were on the wrong side of an internal Imperium dispute, some that simply slighted an Inquisitor... while they all seem to inevitably slide to Chaos its seems more out of necessity or GW's lack of willingness to support an in between.
The explanation for the equipment CSM use is that regardless of flavor they're mostly all resupplied by the same handful of Dark Mechanicum Hellforges.
Renegades are in that gradation between the two and it doesn't really give GW anything new to sell. GW's models first approach means rules and lore are written to justify the models, and its less common that they look at things the other way.
One of the problem with supporting Renegades in general they'd lack anything distinctive and no matter what blend of loyalist and chaos options they got there would be an inevitable dispute from loyalist and chaos players. The giant crates of autocannons Renegades seem to find the day they leave the Imperium being an example of a problem CSM players have. Loyalist players complained when the CSM rotor cannon was previewed. If Renegades got Storm Ravens, CSM would want them, and Loyalists would be like "how do they have those". Then you'd have moments of "I don't understand why I can take a Land Raider crusader but not a Land Speeder". So its something of a losing battle for GW. If FW were still doing much in the way of Imperial Armour, the Badab War was the perfect vector for 40k rules to represent the various states of Renegades and would allow the nuances and explanations GW can't bother to squeeze into a codex.
If GW ever did a Renegade codex you would probably have something like Fallen as the centerpiece to the army, a blend of loyalist and chaos rules and with rules that give particular factions bonuses to represent animosity and grudges that depending on options could ally with Loyalist/Chaos/Xenos. Thematically they're piratical space marines that due to a lack of support from the Imperium would have deteriorating loyalist equipment and potentially if they had chaos benefactors some CSM equipment; however once you exclude the more overtly daemon engines and possessed stuff that demands a truer devotion to chaos, you really aren't left with much from the current chaos list. You might be able to get daemon weapons as relics, or a few mutations to add to your marines. Thematically they'd have the deteriorating organization and chapter tactics, being fielded as the sort of cheap disposable marines that GW want the basic CSM to be. Renegades would probably be best sold akin to the Deathwatch, as loyalist kits that have add-on bits that make them look more rag-tag, but is that really enough? At most you have something of a mini-codex, with one or two specifically Renegade squads, and maybe as many character units.
I think its a shame GW hasn't taken advantage of the distinct ways of playing 40k they introduced with the new edition to write rules for distinct but less note worthy sub-factions that are then limited to narrative play... where the inequity isn't going to ruin anyones day but build on their universe.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Ultimately renegade marines are mooks and not deserving of the kind of narrative investment needed to explain them. GW doesn't care why renegades are the way they are and neither should you.
Yup, because Red Corsairs, only oh, small legion sized group of SM mostly from loyalist chapters, doesn't exist, eh? Or the Second Imperium thing, at least until BL took colossal dump on that idea? Or, for that matter, these 30 fallen chapters from Abyssal Crusade, they all magically mutated from loyalist gear into 10.000 year old stuff the second they fell?
There is being wrong and there is having no case to begin with, if putting on wolfwolfwolf or used bathrobe gives you your own book, real differences should count doubly.
At the end of the day, however, Renegade Marines are such a diverse group that covers so many varying backgrounds/motivations that it would be difficult to properly represent them in a Codex.
Some are still aligned with loyalist views, some are evil without the Daemons, etc. Thankfully, GW has provided SEVERAL Marine Codices for anyone to chose from when selecting what Renegade Warband they want to use. Want Renegades that don't worship chaos? Use literally any Imperial Astates Codex, or even any Chaos one but don't use any <Marks> or DAEMONS.
Galef wrote: At the end of the day, however, Renegade Marines are such a diverse group that covers so many varying backgrounds/motivations that it would be difficult to properly represent them in a Codex.
Some are still aligned with loyalist views, some are evil without the Daemons, etc.
Thankfully, GW has provided SEVERAL Marine Codices for anyone to chose from when selecting what Renegade Warband they want to use.
Want Renegades that don't worship chaos? Use literally any Imperial Astates Codex, or even any Chaos one but don't use any <Marks> or DAEMONS.
Super easy, barely an inconvenience
-
That still doesn't properly convey Renegades though. That's why I'm hammering the idea of switching keywords around ans simply giving access to a few generic Chaos units.
...If you are in favor of a keyword swap from space marines to make your renegades, why not just run your renegades as "loyalist marines" and choose one of the existing chapter tactics?
And if your renegades have gone a bit crazier/fallen to chaos, why not use them with existing renegade/CSM rules?
What about Renegades makes them fight in such a unique manner that we need our, what, TWELFTH power-armored codex, when we have a grand total of EIGHT codexes for the myriad millions of xenos races in the entire galaxy of 40k?
Also, what makes them more unique than World Eaters/Emperor's Children who would have the god daemonkin angle ala Tsons/DG?
for me, I see a tiny intersectional window between "I want to take some stuff from Codex: CSM and some stuff from Codex: SM" which doesn't even come anywhere close to requiring a whole dedicated codex book (or at least, not before many more interesting factions are added/fleshed out).
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Ultimately renegade marines are mooks and not deserving of the kind of narrative investment needed to explain them. GW doesn't care why renegades are the way they are and neither should you.
Yup, because Red Corsairs, only oh, small legion sized group of SM mostly from loyalist chapters, doesn't exist, eh? Or the Second Imperium thing, at least until BL took colossal dump on that idea? Or, for that matter, these 30 fallen chapters from Abyssal Crusade, they all magically mutated from loyalist gear into 10.000 year old stuff the second they fell?
There is being wrong and there is having no case to begin with, if putting on wolfwolfwolf or used bathrobe gives you your own book, real differences should count doubly.
You're overthinking this. They're mooks. One does not ask why the mook mooks the way he mooks. He just does and that's the beginning and end of it. He's not the star of the show, he's target practice. Who cares what the target practice is armed with as long as he looks suitably menacing as the heroes heroically blast him into oblivion? Because the mook knows what the mook knows and the mook knows that he wears black clothes and he dies off in the shadows off the stage.
spartiatis wrote: Hello! Question: do we know if in the shadowspear box, the SM miniatures have a helmet option or are they just as monopose as they seem?
They are monopose and don't come with any spares. You can stick bare heads on them if you've got them from other sources though - the heads are seperate.
I'll probably give a couple of guys the weird helmeted head that comes with the Imperial Fists sprue.
the_scotsman wrote: ...If you are in favor of a keyword swap from space marines to make your renegades, why not just run your renegades as "loyalist marines" and choose one of the existing chapter tactics?
And if your renegades have gone a bit crazier/fallen to chaos, why not use them with existing renegade/CSM rules?
What about Renegades makes them fight in such a unique manner that we need our, what, TWELFTH power-armored codex, when we have a grand total of EIGHT codexes for the myriad millions of xenos races in the entire galaxy of 40k?
Also, what makes them more unique than World Eaters/Emperor's Children who would have the god daemonkin angle ala Tsons/DG?
for me, I see a tiny intersectional window between "I want to take some stuff from Codex: CSM and some stuff from Codex: SM" which doesn't even come anywhere close to requiring a whole dedicated codex book (or at least, not before many more interesting factions are added/fleshed out).
We have. Enough. Space. Marines.
Keyword swaps affects allies and who interacts with them. A Renegade Iron Hands successor would be able to work with a Death Guard and Black Legion fighting force with whatever Nurgle Daemons present, for example, and be able to take advantage of Abigail's aura and their Possessed/mildly Daemonic units to take advantage of those darn Trees or the Locus the Daemons provide.
The problem is that the core CSM codex doesn't show Renegades properly due to them all the sudden operating like they have all these Daemon Engines and Heresy equipment all the sudden, like Autocannons and soon to be released Rotor Cannons. The moment you go Renegade, you also lose the Signum for your Devastators, Grav Guns, Land Speeders, Centurions, and so on, oh and you don't have Chapter Master rules. It makes absolutely no sense, and that's why I'm saying that Renegades need to be handled in the core Marine codex. Lose the main special units a Chapter provides, you get a couple of more generic Chaos units (the example I provide is Possessed, Warp Talons, and Spawn as a start for covering daemonic interactions or mutations), and BAM you're done.
I'm also of the idea Dark and Blood Angels need to be consolidated as well, but YMMV.
Also because of how Thousand Sons and Death Guard were handled, I'm more than in favor for the other two Cult Legions getting their own codices. You can argue how competitive and stuff Thousand Sons and Death Guard were done, but in terms of execution they feel like unique codices that honestly don't need a terrible amount of fixing.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Ultimately renegade marines are mooks and not deserving of the kind of narrative investment needed to explain them. GW doesn't care why renegades are the way they are and neither should you.
Yup, because Red Corsairs, only oh, small legion sized group of SM mostly from loyalist chapters, doesn't exist, eh? Or the Second Imperium thing, at least until BL took colossal dump on that idea? Or, for that matter, these 30 fallen chapters from Abyssal Crusade, they all magically mutated from loyalist gear into 10.000 year old stuff the second they fell?
There is being wrong and there is having no case to begin with, if putting on wolfwolfwolf or used bathrobe gives you your own book, real differences should count doubly.
You're overthinking this. They're mooks. One does not ask why the mook mooks the way he mooks. He just does and that's the beginning and end of it. He's not the star of the show, he's target practice. Who cares what the target practice is armed with as long as he looks suitably menacing as the heroes heroically blast him into oblivion? Because the mook knows what the mook knows and the mook knows that he wears black clothes and he dies off in the shadows off the stage.
Your point is made. They aren't mooks to us and that's the problem.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Ultimately renegade marines are mooks and not deserving of the kind of narrative investment needed to explain them. GW doesn't care why renegades are the way they are and neither should you.
Yup, because Red Corsairs, only oh, small legion sized group of SM mostly from loyalist chapters, doesn't exist, eh? Or the Second Imperium thing, at least until BL took colossal dump on that idea? Or, for that matter, these 30 fallen chapters from Abyssal Crusade, they all magically mutated from loyalist gear into 10.000 year old stuff the second they fell?
There is being wrong and there is having no case to begin with, if putting on wolfwolfwolf or used bathrobe gives you your own book, real differences should count doubly.
You're overthinking this. They're mooks. One does not ask why the mook mooks the way he mooks. He just does and that's the beginning and end of it. He's not the star of the show, he's target practice. Who cares what the target practice is armed with as long as he looks suitably menacing as the heroes heroically blast him into oblivion? Because the mook knows what the mook knows and the mook knows that he wears black clothes and he dies off in the shadows off the stage.
Your point is made. They aren't mooks to us and that's the problem.
I just think expecting any more for them is setting oneself up for disappointment. It's been this way since 4th edition and I don't see it changing.
aka_mythos wrote: Your point is made. They aren't mooks to us and that's the problem.
I just think expecting any more for them is setting oneself up for disappointment. It's been this way since 4th edition and I don't see it changing.
Fair enough.
GW created these different ways to play the game this edition, and it'd be nice to see them use that to allow for faction flavors that are less developed to give us rules that are a different way to use what's already available. Low effort, low consequence support.
As things are, you're right GW isn't going to do anything. If they ever, it'll be after they've spun off so many distinctive flavors of chaos that the core codex is so devoid it requires they give it some thought. What will C:CSM look like and have going for it when World Eaters and Emperor's Children get their own codices, and GW decides that the Shadow Spear Daemonkin codex should be entirely its own thing... then do Dark Mechanicum and pull out the daemon engines... That's the point, if at all, GW goes to reexamine ways to have more going for CSM and maybe say "this Renegade thing... maybe there's something to it"
aka_mythos wrote: Your point is made. They aren't mooks to us and that's the problem.
I just think expecting any more for them is setting oneself up for disappointment. It's been this way since 4th edition and I don't see it changing.
Fair enough.
GW created these different ways to play the game this edition, and it'd be nice to see them use that to allow for faction flavors that are less developed to give us rules that are a different way to use what's already available. Low effort, low consequence support.
As things are, you're right GW isn't going to do anything. If they ever, it'll be after they've spun off so many distinctive flavors of chaos that the core codex is so devoid it requires they give it some thought. What will C:CSM look like and have going for it when World Eaters and Emperor's Children get their own codices, and GW decides that the Shadow Spear Daemonkin codex should be entirely its own thing... then do Dark Mechanicum and pull out the daemon engines... That's the point, if at all, GW goes to reexamine ways to have more going for CSM and maybe say "this Renegade thing... maybe there's something to it"
Well, it would give GW a chance to focus on Word Bearers, Black Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion without having the Cult Legions throwing things off balance. That's a good thing.
Galef wrote: At the end of the day, however, Renegade Marines are such a diverse group that covers so many varying backgrounds/motivations that it would be difficult to properly represent them in a Codex.
Some are still aligned with loyalist views, some are evil without the Daemons, etc.
Thankfully, GW has provided SEVERAL Marine Codices for anyone to chose from when selecting what Renegade Warband they want to use.
Want Renegades that don't worship chaos? Use literally any Imperial Astates Codex, or even any Chaos one but don't use any <Marks> or DAEMONS.
Super easy, barely an inconvenience
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That still doesn't properly convey Renegades though. That's why I'm hammering the idea of switching keywords around ans simply giving access to a few generic Chaos units.
Yeah, I've been of a similar mindset.
If Eldar can get Ynnari, I'm sure there's a decent set of options hybridizing the vanilla C/SM lists to represent renegades. If the old "0-1 [units]" entries existed, it would be really easy. Even in the current system, with wargear linked to what models can field, I think there's still a lot of room to do some mix of the two with a short list of Warlord traits and relics that would only end up around a couple pages of rules content. Probably draw most vehicles and terminator options from the Marines codex and remove anything Scout, Primaris; add in Cult marines, possessed, DPs, marks; pick whichever version feels right from the ones with overlaps (like probably Chosen instead of veterans) and mix the characters from both lines as appropriate.
Neither list is especially strong, and they're both power armor based, so it would probably be pretty simple to balance.
White Dwarf has been including more rules lately. Maybe people should write to the White Dwarf team and suggest they do a set of renegade rules that mix some chaos marine units with some regular marine units and add in some new warlord traits.
Albino Squirrel wrote: White Dwarf has been including more rules lately. Maybe people should write to the White Dwarf team and suggest they do a set of renegade rules that mix some chaos marine units with some regular marine units and add in some new warlord traits.
That's waaaaaaay more than what WD has been doing. They've been doing what are effectively alternate Chapter Tactics.
I remain hopeful that one day we'll get a CSM book that is more akin to the vanilla Marines book in terms of access to vehicles and the like. Failing that, a dedicated book ala the Tyrant's Legion from Badab War would be a great setup for Renegades.
I mean, a Tyrant's Legion (or R&H) that didn't suck would be great, but I don't have high hopes. Depending on how thoroughly they test, I don't honestly think it would open up that much that doesn't exist in either codex, and would be a far less radical change than making a full hybrid human/marine army, so, vs. a new chapter tactic, isn't huge...
Albino Squirrel wrote: White Dwarf has been including more rules lately. Maybe people should write to the White Dwarf team and suggest they do a set of renegade rules that mix some chaos marine units with some regular marine units and add in some new warlord traits.
That's waaaaaaay more than what WD has been doing. They've been doing what are effectively alternate Chapter Tactics.
I remain hopeful that one day we'll get a CSM book that is more akin to the vanilla Marines book in terms of access to vehicles and the like. Failing that, a dedicated book ala the Tyrant's Legion from Badab War would be a great setup for Renegades.
Well, maybe. If it really could be done with a couple of pages of rules, that's no more than they've been doing. The assassin rules were two pages of rules. Now, I don't think they'd actually do it. I think they'll mostly do oddball scenarios, like the Warhammer Underworlds everyone against the giant thing. The assassin rules I think GW was going to make anyway and put somewhere, they just put them in white dwarf early. I don't think they'd develop an army list like has been described specifically for white dwarf. But still, not reason not to ask. A lot of things people have been asking for have made it into white dwarf.
spiralingcadaver wrote: I mean, a Tyrant's Legion (or R&H) that didn't suck would be great, but I don't have high hopes. Depending on how thoroughly they test, I don't honestly think it would open up that much that doesn't exist in either codex, and would be a far less radical change than making a full hybrid human/marine army, so, vs. a new chapter tactic, isn't huge...
Tyrants Legion is actually my inspiration somewhat for my currently being written CSM homebrew. Cultists can screen anything not a Biker or vehicle/monstrous creature like they're characters until they reach 5 or fewer, in which case they kinda understand they're being used!
Albino Squirrel wrote: White Dwarf has been including more rules lately. Maybe people should write to the White Dwarf team and suggest they do a set of renegade rules that mix some chaos marine units with some regular marine units and add in some new warlord traits.
That's waaaaaaay more than what WD has been doing. They've been doing what are effectively alternate Chapter Tactics.
I remain hopeful that one day we'll get a CSM book that is more akin to the vanilla Marines book in terms of access to vehicles and the like. Failing that, a dedicated book ala the Tyrant's Legion from Badab War would be a great setup for Renegades.
Well, maybe. If it really could be done with a couple of pages of rules, that's no more than they've been doing. The assassin rules were two pages of rules. Now, I don't think they'd actually do it. I think they'll mostly do oddball scenarios, like the Warhammer Underworlds everyone against the giant thing. The assassin rules I think GW was going to make anyway and put somewhere, they just put them in white dwarf early. I don't think they'd develop an army list like has been described specifically for white dwarf. But still, not reason not to ask. A lot of things people have been asking for have made it into white dwarf.
I remain hopeful too...
That said, while it wouldn't cover full depth of Renegade, creating new Chapter Tactics/Legion Traits, warlord traits, and relics to represent specific Renegade Chapters with general guidance of units that are and aren't as representative of the Renegade force isn't that far a departure. It wouldn't be a comprehensive rule set for the variety Renegade forces, but doing them one by one they can represent the diversity.
Fun stuff. I wasn't going to go all the way to new mechanics, but I do like the throwback to the old rules: I think they were a strong concept, even if the list was pretty poorly executed on the whole. I mostly don't understand why they charged so much for what were poor quality versions of existing units.
Ultimately when they move the timeline forward to the point that all loyalists are pure primaris there won't be any more recently-turned renegades and the problem will go away. Or maybe upon heresy renegades spontaneously unprimarisize for a reason that will go unexplained, just like the autocannons? I guess we'll see.
I've had this strange desire to start a worldwide project to catalogue and count the number of skulls that have appeared on GW products. I looked at one of the big 40K terrain items and decided against it.
I'm hoping that those, "bat-winged creatures," mentioned in the latest vigilus story are going to be possessed of some kind, or at least some sort of new Chaos unit. I do remember in the new BAngel codex, there was an image of BAngel Primaris battling some bat-winged chaos, so perhaps they'll turn out to be something.
Tiberius501 wrote: I'm hoping that those, "bat-winged creatures," mentioned in the latest vigilus story are going to be possessed of some kind, or at least some sort of new Chaos unit. I do remember in the new BAngel codex, there was an image of BAngel Primaris battling some bat-winged chaos, so perhaps they'll turn out to be something.
Chaos Furies are at this point the only daemon unit without plastic that is not a character, IIRC.
Tiberius501 wrote: I'm hoping that those, "bat-winged creatures," mentioned in the latest vigilus story are going to be possessed of some kind, or at least some sort of new Chaos unit. I do remember in the new BAngel codex, there was an image of BAngel Primaris battling some bat-winged chaos, so perhaps they'll turn out to be something.
Chaos Furies are at this point the only daemon unit without plastic that is not a character, IIRC.
That story was great and I think there will be flying greater possessed or equivalent.
zend wrote: I hope the “leak” of plastic new traitor guard coming in the second wave of chaos goodies had truth to it. The BSF guard models are sooooooo nice and scale perfectly with the new CSM. A couple of them also look like they’re women so that bodes well for people that want lady guard, assuming GW ever gets around to updating them.
Can anyone link or tell us where to find this leak? I’ve looked and can’t find any.
Tbh I think that traitor guard army is big news for chaos if done right this time and with a (dis)loyal 32 it could make chaos very competitive.
I need to see it to believe it though so where is the leak lol
NAVARRO wrote: Has anyone crunched the numbers and figured out the Primaris total points wise? How much are we looking at in the box?
think it was 700-800 points or there abouts.
Thanks. That and the dark imperium primaris and your set with a big part of an army.
yup. although you'd proably need to shave some points as you've got proably close to 600 points in HQs from those two boxes alone, what with 2 captains, 3 leuitenants, a Librarian and a ancient.
NAVARRO wrote: Has anyone crunched the numbers and figured out the Primaris total points wise? How much are we looking at in the box?
think it was 700-800 points or there abouts.
Thanks. That and the dark imperium primaris and your set with a big part of an army.
yup. although you'd proably need to shave some points as you've got proably close to 600 points in HQs from those two boxes alone, what with 2 captains, 3 leuitenants, a Librarian and a ancient.
Ancients are Elites, but that doesn't really affect the point.
NAVARRO wrote: Has anyone crunched the numbers and figured out the Primaris total points wise? How much are we looking at in the box?
think it was 700-800 points or there abouts.
Thanks. That and the dark imperium primaris and your set with a big part of an army.
yup. although you'd proably need to shave some points as you've got proably close to 600 points in HQs from those two boxes alone, what with 2 captains, 3 leuitenants, a Librarian and a ancient.
Ancients are Elites, but that doesn't really affect the point.
yeah I meant characters rather then HQs but yeah definatly. I'd be curious what the best mix of HQs for a mixed force of normal primaris/vanguard would be.
It was just some bloke on 4chan claiming to have an inside source talking about the supposed release schedule for this year saying that traitor guard would come somewhere this year. There's nothing solid really.
That 4+ to hit without auto-hit weapons means I guess I'll paint mine for completion ... or finally finish off my heldrake instead.
Khorne Daemons I'm painting currently don't particularly care, but I guess bye-bye heralds, unless character invisibility still saves them somehow?
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