Nazrak wrote: Am I literally the only person who’s going to play my Orks as the Clan they’re painted as, rather than trying to cheese the most effective rules for any given unit?
It's going to be tricky for me, as I have models painted from all the klans, and its going to be a bitch to take like 5 detachments in each game.
Billagio wrote: I dont think I will be. My opponents dont particularly care too much what color my stuff is as long as they know what is what. I like having my boyz be all different colors representing the different clans, even if their trait doesnt correspond. Plus I dont want to repaint 200 models
Paint doesn't matter to most people unless your mixing traits. For example your stuff can all be painted entirely differently as along as it's all using the one trait you pick for the day. Alternatively I don't care if your stuff is 1/3 bare grey plastic, 1/3 primer, and 1/3 washed and you use three traits/detachments as long as they fit into those three columns of appearance so I can distinguish them.
What is annoying is the guys that take a hodge podge of everything in look and then tell me throughout the game that this unit here is one trait while this similar unit over here is another. Or an entire army painted in one scheme but certain units are different traits depending on the winds of balance. Those are the guys that take that inch and run for a mile.
Nazrak wrote: Am I literally the only person who’s going to play my Orks as the Clan they’re painted as, rather than trying to cheese the most effective rules for any given unit?
It's going to be tricky for me, as I have models painted from all the klans, and its going to be a bitch to take like 5 detachments in each game.
Just play all of them as one like I said above. If you plan to mix traits then it will be trickier for you.
For me part of what I find annoying is that Ork boys were cut to 5" movement speed in the same edition that rapid fire weapons can be fired at full range with full mobility and charging is still possible.
I keep having visions in my mind of "kiting" tactics that make things like increased armor saves and increased mobility seem vital to make up that huge advantage that most troops have now in mobility, flexibility and range. When boys are 7 ppm, they are going to need cheesy jump tactics to close gaps and get within that crucial 12" range, unless they can get a clan trait to increase their base move (evil sunz) or survivability (blood axes). Right into the loving arms of their rapid fire range.
LOS blocking terrain notwithstanding. Terrain being another manipulable factor for other armies - cover is in their advantage, ruins are their advantage. LOS blocking is a challenge for an army that relies on 20+ man footslogging hordes fielded en masse.
I just don't find the idea of peeling off piles of my favorite orks off the table appealing.
The +1 cover save on bloodaxes is probably the most broadly applicable and makes kommandos really intriguing. Evil sunz has phenomenal possibilities. The deep striking makes goffs really impressive considering their sheer killiness.
But these clan traits are STRONG. They're not flavor traits. They define strategy. That's game design flaw in a game based around building and painting armies.
And it wouldn't be so bad if they hadn't teeter tottered rapid fire vs assault weapons balance so badly. That and the hit modifiers, the change to twin linked, and predominance of rerolling 1s all favor high ballistic skill compared to low BS.
All that makes me feel kind of shoehorned.
Then, consider the sheer inflexibility of Ork boys. They are going to crater a lot of lists when you consider their propensity toward big, slow, stupid mobs. At 7ppm, supporting and transporting them is going to be half your list.
Nazrak wrote: Am I literally the only person who’s going to play my Orks as the Clan they’re painted as, rather than trying to cheese the most effective rules for any given unit?
I have all four primary clans with various themes within, but I'll be damned if I'm going to limit my play to the fething color I painted the models. That's insane.
Oh holy gak a 3D6 S8 AP-3 D6 damage gun? Yeah it has Gets Hot but reroll 1s heavily mitigate that.
Thats just juicy. Mork be praised! (Or was it gork?)
Yeah, be interesting to see the points for the Gork/Morkanaut (even a small discount might make them viable) and Stompa which still needs a huge points reduction regardless of rolling more shooty dice.
technically thats all that kept stompas out.
They are not worth ~900pts. Heck they are barely worth 500 right now lol, the mass of HP being the only reason theyre even that high imo.
Vineheart01 wrote: Oh holy gak a 3D6 S8 AP-3 D6 damage gun? Yeah it has Gets Hot but reroll 1s heavily mitigate that.
Thats just juicy. Mork be praised! (Or was it gork?)
Vineheart01 wrote: technically thats all that kept stompas out.
They are not worth ~900pts. Heck they are barely worth 500 right now lol, the mass of HP being the only reason theyre even that high imo.
True, I think being at 600 with the new profile is probably ok, maybe 700.
The Mek shop may actually be OK not great with a stompa.
54-72 shots from the supa gattler (save ur cp reroll)
6 supa rokkit shots
18 deff kannon shots
Even a castellan will have issues vs that shotting depending on BS (4+ bs hopefully) regardless reroll 1 or exploding 6s is brutal.
Add a Mek w de redda armor inside since it stacks w grot riggers ( or big Mek w kff and da redda armor)
gungo wrote: The Mek shop may actually be OK not great with a stompa.
54-72 shots from the supa gattler (save ur cp reroll)
6 supa rokkit shots
18 deff kannon shots
Even a castellan will have issues vs that shotting depending on BS (4+ bs hopefully)
Add a Mek w de redda armor inside since it stacks w grot riggers ( or big Mek w kff and da redda armor)
Vineheart01 wrote: Goddamn it i cant read today....
3D3 is still decent, miles better than the stupid KMK it had previously but not as great as i thought.
gungo wrote: The Mek shop may actually be OK not great with a stompa.
54-72 shots from the supa gattler (save ur cp reroll)
6 supa rokkit shots
18 deff kannon shots
Even a castellan will have issues vs that shotting depending on BS (4+ bs hopefully)
Add a Mek w de redda armor inside since it stacks w grot riggers ( or big Mek w kff and da redda armor)
It maxes out a single weapon I believe
If so it sucks even more then I thought but it might be mildly amusing w supa gattler and a saved cp reroll and badmoon reroll 1 And exploding 6.
Vineheart01 wrote: Goddamn it i cant read today....
3D3 is still decent, miles better than the stupid KMK it had previously but not as great as i thought.
It's 6 shots average compared to 3.5 before.
And even more than that with reroll 1s and DDD. We're going from 1.2 hits to 2.7 for Bad Moons.
Seems to me that GW is aware of the BS5 dynamic of Orks and has bumped the shot totals quite a bit.
I think maybe people need to have more confidence in the process now and realize that Orks are going to define the meta in several areas.
oomiestompa wrote: What about with Psycho-Dakka-Blasta? Would it get max shots each time you fired it that turn?
Edit: Referring to using the Mek Shop on the Supa-Gatler.
Ya that’s what I was referring to above.
It would be fun but probably not competitive w the Mek shop.
If the rules are the same and you save a CP reroll. You should reliably fire 54-72 shots with it.
With badmoon trait and exploding 6s you might even kill a csstallen even with bs5. You could definitely kill it if you get an extra +1 damage from the Mek shop roll of 6.
DDD technicaly also causes more potential Gets Hot instances but the Mork has a lot of health anyway getting self-zapped a few times wont phase it if its pumping out that kind of firepower
Hulksmash wrote: I'm excited for tomorrow as I'm a evil sunz dude since way back when they released the clan rules so I'm excited to see more details.
Also so much of this sounds good but if boyz went up I'm hoping there are enough cuts elsewhere to where I'm not forced to field smaller armies.
Yes, Evil Sunz tomorrow!! (Note, don't paint your watch red, it does not make time go fasta) I'm having a difficult time imagining what else other than boyz could deserve a price hike..Maybe the kustom mega kannon? Actually I'd like all the mek gunz to recieve a heft price hike and much better stats so they'd be better in point per money ratio.
Nazrak wrote: Am I literally the only person who’s going to play my Orks as the Clan they’re painted as, rather than trying to cheese the most effective rules for any given unit?
It's going to be tricky for me, as I have models painted from all the klans, and its going to be a bitch to take like 5 detachments in each game.
Same. I’m pretty miffed this doesn’t appear to have been taken into account by the rules, given that Warbands have previously comprised Orks from several different Clans ever since 1st Edition.
TheFatElf wrote: As a long time Deathskulls fan, I'm interested to hear how they're shaping up. Anyone had any thoughts?
We haven't heard anything yet other than their getting a 6+ invulnerable and one reroll per unit per turn.
There's also a clan warlord trait KiriothTV shared on YouTube. Their clan relic is a big mek tool that gives the big mekaniak ability.
I will say the one strategem leaked that allowed +1 to armor save when a vehicle was destroyed near a unit sounds suspiciously like a deathskulls clan strategem.
To me, personally, I think the 6++ will be used somewhat more rarely than the snakebites and blood axes clain trait, so I would want to see the deathskulls warlord traits and tactics to be sure. Seeing as it's redundant most of the time with armor saves, isn't affected by cover saves, and is redundant with a KFF. Kind of sad because I dig deathskulls.
However it is good to have and would pair well with a painboy and save you points and time with a headache KFF.
Tomorrow's preview is evil Suns. We've seen goffs, snakebites and bad moons. So either Friday or Saturday we should be seeing the deathskulls preview.
Anyone Else excited about stompas deffkannon, for 3d6 shots S10 Dd6, thats even bigger boomstick than baneblade has! Dammit, they didnt reveal Bad moons stratagem.
TedNugent wrote: I've got to admit, that morkanaut statline makes me think seriously about walker spam on evil sunz.
That would provide the save, the trikeboss would provide the vehicle-waaagh, they'd all be quite quick with the evil sunz tactic.
Hnnggg
Then again, all the weapons are heavy and 9" isn't much coverage range when it comes to vehicles. But for a little walker troupe maybe it could be.
All the Kan and Deffdread weapons are assault aside from the Grotzooka.
'Nauts suffer no move penalty.
Hnnggg away.
No move penalty, but they can't advance while shooting since it's not a assault weapon. They'd have 9" movement speed at 10-18 HP. Not bad compared to 11.5" on the walkers, but I would legit be tempted just to go for a big mek for the repair ability instead or skip the KFF at that point. Meh.
It's weird to say, but it would probably be better in a bad moons list to avoid the exploding 1s.
oh you know if you try to use a mork in a nonbadmoonz list its going to self-zap itself to death. Thats just how gets hot works, if you dont have a reroll you roll ALL THE ONES!!
which is why i dont have a single model with a KMB lol
Vineheart01 wrote: oh you know if you try to use a mork in a nonbadmoonz list its going to self-zap itself to death. Thats just how gets hot works, if you dont have a reroll you roll ALL THE ONES!!
which is why i dont have a single model with a KMB lol
You know it only ever takes a single mortal wound, right? No matter how many ones you roll
Spreelock wrote: Anyone Else excited about stompas deffkannon, for 3d6 shots S10 Dd6, thats even bigger boomstick than baneblade has! Dammit, they didnt reveal Bad moons stratagem.
It's bark is worse than it's bite...most of those shells will miss, leaving 4 hits. One or two will get through invuls, doing about 4-7 damage or so on average.
Hm, I'm not that enamoured of the BM Kultur – 1 more hit for every 18 shots rolled is … underwhelming. I suppose it's going to be more useful for mitigating Gets Hot than actually improving your firepower.
Nazrak wrote: Hm, I'm not that enamoured of the BM Kultur – 1 more hit for every 18 shots rolled is … underwhelming. I suppose it's going to be more useful for mitigating Gets Hot than actually improving your firepower.
Oh well.
I do believe someone on dakka dakka did the mathhammer for badmoonz reroll 1's + dakkadakkadakka and the end result was nearly BS 4+. (its something like 48.6% hit rate up from 33%). The reroll 1's for shooting also applies to dakkadakkadakka, as its a separate hit roll.
Nazrak wrote: Hm, I'm not that enamoured of the BM Kultur – 1 more hit for every 18 shots rolled is … underwhelming. I suppose it's going to be more useful for mitigating Gets Hot than actually improving your firepower.
Oh well.
I do believe someone on dakka dakka did the mathhammer for badmoonz reroll 1's + dakkadakkadakka and the end result was nearly BS 4+. (its something like 48.6% hit rate up from 33%). The reroll 1's for shooting also applies to dakkadakkadakka, as its a separate hit roll.
I’m fairly sure you’re mistaken on that. Unless my maths is wildly off, it’s pretty much a bump from 33% to 39%.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Re-rolling ALL misses at BS 5+ only just bumps you over 50% hits, and this is only 1 in 4 of those misses getting re-rolled.
I did some quick mathhammer for the attacks to hit conversion rate, the first column is unmodified, the second column is with DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA, the third column is with re-rolls of 1 and the fourth column is with re-rolls of failures instead, both of those with DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA.
Malkyr wrote: Im surprised by how many people are really worried about the Stompa being competitive. I cant imagine ever seeing or using one in a standard game.
If Im playing Apoc (which I have done only twice in all of 8th ed) Im personally not sweating the competitiveness of the fun fluffy things
I always thought the Stompa was a mini Titan and the Nauts were the Ork Knight equivalent.
Fluffwise that might be correct, I wouldn't know. Unfortunately if I at some point want to bring something to the table to brawl with the knight(s) some of my friends own, Gork/Morkanauts are not going to cut it. In effectiveness the Stompa comes closer than either of them.
20 are hits. 10 shots are 1's. Reroll those.
that should net you an extra 3,33 hits.
So 23,33 hits. Half of those are 6's.
So 11,65 extra shots. Divide that by 3,nets you 3,88 extra hits.
Those 11.65 extra shots should also have another 1,94 1's in there. Reroll those for another 0.65 hits.
So you get 20+3.33+3.88+0.64 hits. for a total of 27.85 hits unless I made a mistake somewhere. That's 46.4%
Ah yeah gotcha, I wasn’t including DDD in my initial calculation. It’s a bit better once you factor that in but still a little unspectacular I guess. I’ll cope though.
Malkyr wrote: Im surprised by how many people are really worried about the Stompa being competitive. I cant imagine ever seeing or using one in a standard game.
If Im playing Apoc (which I have done only twice in all of 8th ed) Im personally not sweating the competitiveness of the fun fluffy things
I always thought the Stompa was a mini Titan and the Nauts were the Ork Knight equivalent.
Fluffwise that might be correct, I wouldn't know. Unfortunately if I at some point want to bring something to the table to brawl with the knight(s) some of my friends own, Gork/Morkanauts are not going to cut it. In effectiveness the Stompa comes closer than either of them.
The stompa will only be competitive if it gets a big points reduction! at the moment it’s twice the cost of other knights and is significantly more than the Castellan or valiant but not as effective.
A gorkanaught on the charge will take a significant chunk out of a Knight but it’s not a match despite being almost the same points as a gallant.
Nazrak wrote: Am I literally the only person who’s going to play my Orks as the Clan they’re painted as, rather than trying to cheese the most effective rules for any given unit?
Wow...get over yourself. There is nothing wrong with optimizing an army list.
I paint my units different colors, just so I can tell them apart. I have red team, yellow team, blue team ect. So I am an a awkward spot, I am not sure how I am going differentiate ork clans and my units....
Nazrak wrote: Am I literally the only person who’s going to play my Orks as the Clan they’re painted as, rather than trying to cheese the most effective rules for any given unit?
Wow...get over yourself. There is nothing wrong with optimizing an army list.
I paint my units different colors, just so I can tell them apart. I have red team, yellow team, blue team ect. So I am an a awkward spot, I am not sure how I am going differentiate ork clans and my units....
You do you dude. I just personally find it incredibly boring when the internet arrives at a consensus as to the most "optimised" choice, then you hardly see anything but that in people's lists and people then use it as a justification for throwing the background material out the window. It's just a different approach at the end of the day, but you seem to see increasingly fewer players letting the background influence their choices rather than what makes the "best" i.e. most competitive list.
Nazrak wrote: Am I literally the only person who’s going to play my Orks as the Clan they’re painted as, rather than trying to cheese the most effective rules for any given unit?
Wow...get over yourself. There is nothing wrong with optimizing an army list.
I paint my units different colors, just so I can tell them apart. I have red team, yellow team, blue team ect. So I am an a awkward spot, I am not sure how I am going differentiate ork clans and my units....
I have the same problem. I think that as others have said, you can just mark them differently somehow on the model, or paint the edges of their bases different colors to tell them apart. Also if your whole list is the same klan then it probably doesnt matter since everyone is the same no matter the color.
Nazrak wrote: Am I literally the only person who’s going to play my Orks as the Clan they’re painted as, rather than trying to cheese the most effective rules for any given unit?
Wow...get over yourself. There is nothing wrong with optimizing an army list.
I paint my units different colors, just so I can tell them apart. I have red team, yellow team, blue team ect. So I am an a awkward spot, I am not sure how I am going differentiate ork clans and my units....
Banna Boyz. That’s my suggestion. One per squad, with the relevant Klan icons on display. Minimal effort, brilliant clarity for both you and your opponent
Could be back bannas, or stick banners (any Warhammer Orc player is bound to have loads kicking about).
Also brings a pleasingly Rogue Trader look to the table
Automatically Appended Next Post: For instance
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post: Could even magnetise the Banna Tops, giving you the choice of changing what each unit is from game to game.
oomiestompa wrote: What about with Psycho-Dakka-Blasta? Would it get max shots each time you fired it that turn?
Edit: Referring to using the Mek Shop on the Supa-Gatler.
Remember, mek shop rumor is that it only applies to one gun on the target unit, not all guns.
The Supa-Gatler is a gun on the Stompa. It has a rule that lets it fire multiple times in the same shooting phase (Psycho-Dakka-Blasta).
Sorry, I was unclear - some people seemed to be under the impression that the supa-gatla, deff kannon, and supa rokkits would all get max shots from the mek shop. That's probably not the case.
Does anyone know if the ork mek shop has 100% LoS blocking on the wall side? I was thinking of tellyporting some in for fun and either walling off opponents or creating a LoS barrier for safe board navigation.
Probably still best off tellyportin’ summfin’ ‘ard close. Force your opponent to focus fire there, allowing the rest of the Ladz to bomb it up the board ded zoggin fast, closing the range.
Risk and reward there.
Risk? Tellyportin’ in something very expensive, but durable, only to have nearly every gun the enemy has in range engage them.
Reward. Tellyportin’ in something so well ‘ard it not only survives the ensuing firestorm, but in such numbers it can still Krump ‘Eds.
I reckon Goff Skarboyz ought to be just about the right mix of cheap and genuinely scary, depending on opponent. The S5 means they can still do damage with a relative fraction not got themselves perished, and a whole Mob of 30 (no idea if that’s 20PL or less, I imagine less) ain’t something your opponent can realistically afford to ignore.
Downside there of course is that they’re no harder to perish than your average Boy.
the Stompa won't be of much use if it's rumoured to be 850pts. XD As someone who see's people take Knights and the different Blades to normal 2k points battles then a stompa would have been nice to balance out the field.
with badmoons reroll ones and ddd the most efficiant list for the posh gitz is literaly everything that isnt bs5.
mek guns
big gunz (index)
flashgitz (if they dont move)
dakkajet
killakanz
shockjump dragsta
rukatruck squig buggy (though its pl cost look like it will be too expensive to even consider fielding)
grots (might become competitive becasue of rumored boy price hike)
while this leaves out alot of other ork units you can still field a decent list with all these units. use the mek guns for your gunline, have the kilakans be the defensive line and then have the dragstas be the assault unit (grots are mainly for cp battery).
if ur opponent doesn't use a -1 to hit trait then this all sums up to some very impressive ork shooting.
in regard to the buffs that the stompa is getting. yeah, i fully expect the thing to not get a price decrease, becasue most of these upgrades just seem like a justification by GW to keep it expensive. but who knows, they increased the shooting of the morkanaut and its PL went from 18 to 15. we might get lucky.
man, if GW realy wanted to get some good ork sales they would make the stompa half price and ive it these upgrades. ork players everywhere will jump to have stompas on the table. its by far our most price efficient model (the most plastic for how much you pay)(ork players are less likely to scratchbuild if they can afford the thing and it has good rules). you will see a growing stompa metta that uses grots for cheap cp batteries. clan traits will make the stompa lists varied.man, that would look realy cool...but its a pipe dream.
At current ~900pts, the dang thing should be roflstomping (ha, stomping) EVERYTHING except some of the really big FW stuff. It should only be going down to either insanely bad luck or focus fire of equal or greater worth. Not losing to a freaking knight most of the time, which costs quite a bit less.
Its way more expensive than even the Ta'unar, which i feel got hit with the nerfhammer pretty bad in 8th. Still costs less and does more, even feeling nerfed too much.
At current ~900pts, the dang thing should be roflstomping (ha, stomping) EVERYTHING except some of the really big FW stuff. It should only be going down to either insanely bad luck or focus fire of equal or greater worth. Not losing to a freaking knight most of the time, which costs quite a bit less.
Its way more expensive than even the Ta'unar, which i feel got hit with the nerfhammer pretty bad in 8th. Still costs less and does more, even feeling nerfed too much.
its crazy but the stompa is currently the same points as a fully loaded gallant and crusader both with carapace weapons!
I still think the Titans aren't costed to be balanced with points, just to keep them out of normal sized games and in the "for fun" Apoc setting.
In my first Apoc game in 8th my teammate and I realized we could build to destroy our opponents recently purchased Tyranid Bio-Titan in the first turn (before they changed deep strike). We decided that would be a dick move and also that the thing wasnt really a threat to us despite being ~2000 points. In the end my teammate even threw a couple Wraithknights into his list just so our opponent could actually do something useful with his newly purchased and painted Titan before we wrecked it.
The only reason the Stompa is in the codex is because they made that awesome plastic kit. Otherwise it would be Forgeworld only and not even be discussed here.
it all comes down to how GW is unable to correctly price survivability and ballistic skill.
for suvivability they think sheer amounts of wounds is enough and a pitiful d3 wonds repaired a round. so our expensive beefy stompa should cost way more then the knight becasue double wounds right? nope. any lascanon will melt through those wounds in no time, we cant even stack repairs anymore.
for balistic skill they are the most ignorant game maker for their own rules. most will say that shooting is even better then it was last edition, so thus anything that doesnt shoot well should be cheap right? nope. orks still pay alot for the damage and shots of our wpns, not the actual hit chance. just look at the dragsta for evidence of this. its our most accurate model yet it is very close to price to all the other bs5 buggies we got.
the dragsta will probably be the best selling buggy during this release.
geargutz wrote: it all comes down to how GW is unable to correctly price survivability and ballistic skill.
for suvivability they think sheer amounts of wounds is enough and a pitiful d3 wonds repaired a round. so our expensive beefy stompa should cost way more then the knight becasue double wounds right? nope. any lascanon will melt through those wounds in no time, we cant even stack repairs anymore.
for balistic skill they are the most ignorant game maker for their own rules. most will say that shooting is even better then it was last edition, so thus anything that doesnt shoot well should be cheap right? nope. orks still pay alot for the damage and shots of our wpns, not the actual hit chance. just look at the dragsta for evidence of this. its our most accurate model yet it is very close to price to all the other bs5 buggies we got.
the dragsta will probably be the best selling buggy during this release.
Uh.
The dragsta gets 2 shots, S8 ap-3 Dd6 right?
And thats at BS3+ right, so, 4/3 hits.
Now, looking at the Skrapjet, we know that its main gun is 2d3 shots, S8 AP-2 D3, and unlike the dragsta, it has more guns on top of that.
So that's 4/3 hits.
Hmm. I wonder why these models are a similar price.
geargutz wrote: it all comes down to how GW is unable to correctly price survivability and ballistic skill.
for suvivability they think sheer amounts of wounds is enough and a pitiful d3 wonds repaired a round. so our expensive beefy stompa should cost way more then the knight becasue double wounds right? nope. any lascanon will melt through those wounds in no time, we cant even stack repairs anymore.
for balistic skill they are the most ignorant game maker for their own rules. most will say that shooting is even better then it was last edition, so thus anything that doesnt shoot well should be cheap right? nope. orks still pay alot for the damage and shots of our wpns, not the actual hit chance. just look at the dragsta for evidence of this. its our most accurate model yet it is very close to price to all the other bs5 buggies we got.
the dragsta will probably be the best selling buggy during this release.
Uh huh.
Ok.
Great.
Except BS is the least of someone’s worries against Orks.
Stompas have a stupid amount of wounds. Orks are also stupidly numerous. All the time you’re focusing on one target, there’s a great many other potential targets closing to their favoured range, where they can make a real mess.
We all have finite resources in any given turn. And mathhammering just doesn’t work, because none of us in our entire lives will chuck enough dice to be statistically significant. With the Stompa, it only takes a single Kustom Force Field in the mix to start stuffing up the precious average.
Yes, Attack A has a reasonable chance of doing a proper pod shot on a lone Stompa. Unless it’s within KFF range. Sure. ’statisically’ the save will fail 2/3rds of the time. But that’s just not to the amusement of the Dice Gods. And well we know it from experience.
In short, ant statiscal analysis fails when your looking at things in an isolation that simply won’t ever happen on the board. Pretty much ever.
Oh? Tournaments! Of course. Every heavy weapon ever there is definitely a LasCannon with a re-roll to hit, wound and damage.
For clarity, this isn’t a pop at your goodself, just the wider mindset.
Statistic mean nothing in 40k. Not when get down to it.
geargutz wrote: it all comes down to how GW is unable to correctly price survivability and ballistic skill.
for suvivability they think sheer amounts of wounds is enough and a pitiful d3 wonds repaired a round. so our expensive beefy stompa should cost way more then the knight becasue double wounds right? nope. any lascanon will melt through those wounds in no time, we cant even stack repairs anymore.
for balistic skill they are the most ignorant game maker for their own rules. most will say that shooting is even better then it was last edition, so thus anything that doesnt shoot well should be cheap right? nope. orks still pay alot for the damage and shots of our wpns, not the actual hit chance. just look at the dragsta for evidence of this. its our most accurate model yet it is very close to price to all the other bs5 buggies we got.
the dragsta will probably be the best selling buggy during this release.
I think it’s obvious that gw costs units on what they could do not what they will averagely will do.
Nazrak wrote: Am I literally the only person who’s going to play my Orks as the Clan they’re painted as, rather than trying to cheese the most effective rules for any given unit?
Wow...get over yourself. There is nothing wrong with optimizing an army list.
I paint my units different colors, just so I can tell them apart. I have red team, yellow team, blue team ect. So I am an a awkward spot, I am not sure how I am going differentiate ork clans and my units....
I am the same way! I have 30 boys with blue pants, 30 with khaki, 30 with brown... etc. Then my bikes are red. Meganobz started as yellow. All my boyz will be goffs. As that if my preferred clan, but I could see using a bad moons detachment with mek guns, jets etc. Or blood axe detachment with kommandos and bikes. Bikes with a 3+ save and retreat/charge. Yes please. To bad no shoot/charge possibilities that we know of.
Except BS is the least of someone’s worries against Orks.
Stompas have a stupid amount of wounds. Orks are also stupidly numerous. All the time you’re focusing on one target, there’s a great many other potential targets closing to their favoured range, where they can make a real mess.
We all have finite resources in any given turn. And mathhammering just doesn’t work, because none of us in our entire lives will chuck enough dice to be statistically significant. With the Stompa, it only takes a single Kustom Force Field in the mix to start stuffing up the precious average.
Yes, Attack A has a reasonable chance of doing a proper pod shot on a lone Stompa. Unless it’s within KFF range. Sure. ’statisically’ the save will fail 2/3rds of the time. But that’s just not to the amusement of the Dice Gods. And well we know it from experience.
In short, ant statiscal analysis fails when your looking at things in an isolation that simply won’t ever happen on the board. Pretty much ever.
Oh? Tournaments! Of course. Every heavy weapon ever there is definitely a LasCannon with a re-roll to hit, wound and damage.
For clarity, this isn’t a pop at your goodself, just the wider mindset.
Statistic mean nothing in 40k. Not when get down to it.
I agree fully with this, ive had many a game where my dice just blow my opponent out of the water, ive had shooting phases that would make a flashgit blush and then an assault phase that just whiffs.... Ive never gone off averages, and many of my gaming group friends always go off math hammer and when it never goes towards there predictions they look so shocked and disheartened.
I attend quite a few UK tournaments and never do i base my list off math hammer, but off experience of my own codex and everyone elses.
Malkyr wrote: I still think the Titans aren't costed to be balanced with points, just to keep them out of normal sized games and in the "for fun" Apoc setting.
In my first Apoc game in 8th my teammate and I realized we could build to destroy our opponents recently purchased Tyranid Bio-Titan in the first turn (before they changed deep strike). We decided that would be a dick move and also that the thing wasnt really a threat to us despite being ~2000 points. In the end my teammate even threw a couple Wraithknights into his list just so our opponent could actually do something useful with his newly purchased and painted Titan before we wrecked it.
The only reason the Stompa is in the codex is because they made that awesome plastic kit. Otherwise it would be Forgeworld only and not even be discussed here.
I would agree with you normally, but we live in a world were Imperial players can and will include Knights in 2,000 point lists. All I ask for is for our version to be appropriately powerful/costed as theirs. If that means Gork/Morkanauts get more powerful I'm fine with that too, but currently just making the Stompa more viable seem a more sensible option. We have the kit, and it means we can use Gork/Morks for smaller point walker lists.
Just tried to check out the Bad Moons accuracy on better BS, so for mek gunz/grots at BS4
Say you start with 60 shots again for simplicity's sake
30 shots hit. 10 shots are 1's, reroll those.
Another 5 hit. Out of those 35 hits 11.67 should be 6's. Now DDD generates another 5.83 hits. Those 11.67 extra shots should have another 1.95 1's in there, reroll those for another 0.97 hits.
So 30+5+5.83+0.97=41.8 hits =69.67% hit ratio
Same thing for BS3 for large numbers of grots or the shokkjump dragsta.
60 shots. Out of those 40 hit. 10 shots are 1's, reroll those for another 6.67 hits. Out of the 46.67 hits 11.67 are 6's, generating another 7.82 hits.Out of those 11.67 there would be another 1.95 1's. Reroll those for 1.3 more hits.
So 40+6.67+7.82+1.3=55.79=93% accuracy
Maybe I've made a mistake in the math somewhere but tedious dice rolling aside, these are some pretty good buffs!
rtb02 wrote: Fully agree on maths-hammering. It's a rough, poor guide but how many of us see the stats play out?
Very rarely. Gut and experience counts for far more.
true, but should things be costed for times that the math is on their side? For instance in my games, dice hate me. So if the math says a KFF makes 1/3 the saves. Ill be lucky to get a save 1/6 the time. It's very sad but true. So again most of our units are overcosted. Not to mention due to the costings, we don't outnumber armies like we could without boy spam. Or units get blown off the board 1 or 2 at a time ap that when a unit does hit CC it's not a large enough of a hit to win the game.
I think with boys going up in points, with clan traits, gretchin might be a good filler for multiple detachments ... Just pointing out the obvious that isn't so obvious.
Maybe boys won't be the be all end all.
Part of the reason I really don't favor boys is because they are very much all or nothing, unlike other troops. They require support, transportation, unit size, modifiers, aura abilities, teleportation - they are inflexible and leave a crater in your list and what it can accomplish.
Although one thing to consider is maybe using screens from another detachment - snake bite grots or blood axe boys in a green tide - followed by rearguard goff skarboys.
Madoho wrote: Does anyone know or has as an idea as to why boys, grots, ghazzy and nob with banner are "sold out" instead of temporarily out of stock?
Probably because when they return they'll have a different barcode number (together with redone cover art to take account of the 32mm bases, which could be a photoshop of the old stuff or a genuine new photo
so although the minis are the same the box as a whole isnt
Madoho wrote: Does anyone know or has as an idea as to why boys, grots, ghazzy and nob with banner are "sold out" instead of temporarily out of stock?
Probably because when they return they'll have a different barcode number (together with redone cover art to take account of the 32mm bases, which could be a photoshop of the old stuff or a genuine new photo
so although the minis are the same the box as a whole isnt
this basically, the current stock code is no longer available, they will return with a new stock code
When are the Finecast stuff going to be updated into plastic? They have a lot of models that are finecast, and I want some Kommandos, a weirdboy, and a SAG.
geargutz wrote: it all comes down to how GW is unable to correctly price survivability and ballistic skill.
You cannot price survivability right in a game where one player gets to use his whole army before the other. Until Warhammer chooses the alternate activation road and as long as any model can be destroyed before it even gets a chance to act, survivability will always be a headache to assess.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: When are the Finecast stuff going to be updated into plastic? They have a lot of models that are finecast, and I want some Kommandos, a weirdboy, and a SAG.
The SAG is plastic already, though you're right about the Weirdboy and Kommandos.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: When are the Finecast stuff going to be updated into plastic? They have a lot of models that are finecast, and I want some Kommandos, a weirdboy, and a SAG.
The SAG is plastic already, though you're right about the Weirdboy and Kommandos.
Oh wow, it is. Is it me, or does the plastic one look less beefy than the older one? At first I thought it looked different, but now I'm not sure. My FLGS only has the Finecast one, so I didn't know. Was it always webstore exclusive? Seems pretty restrictive.
Re-rolling 1’s can turn a rubbish roll into something approaching average. Getting extra shots on 6’s can pay further dividends.
And again, this is where purely statistical analysis falls over. It just doesn’t allow for good or bad luck. Despite being Well Clevers, I’m not sure I can properly translate, mathematically, re-rolling 1’s, then allowing for further 6’s from said re-roll, and the hitting again In fact, I totally can’t. Not even. Like. At all.
Again, none of us will roll enough dice in our lifetime for our experience to actually approach statistical average.
Then, factor in exactly which bit of Dakka benefits from the boost. Sure, it could be a mere Slugga that turns a 1 to hit into a 6 to hit then another 6.
I mean, that’s still not bad. Might be an additional extra wound. But what if it’s a Kustom Shokk Rifle that gets those ‘statiscal’ 6’s.
OUCH. That’s what,
Because we can never predict, without going into way, way.......WAY to much detail for a game where there’s precisely zero money at stake.
geargutz wrote: it all comes down to how GW is unable to correctly price survivability and ballistic skill.
You cannot price survivability right in a game where one player gets to use his whole army before the other. Until Warhammer chooses the alternate activation road and as long as any model can be destroyed before it even gets a chance to act, survivability will always be a headache to assess.
If ONLY there was some kind of of initiative system that we could use, gah! But there's no such thing.
Plus, who could imagine an initiative system that would work outside the combat phase anyway?
Stompas have a stupid amount of wounds. Orks are also stupidly numerous. All the time you’re focusing on one target, there’s a great many other potential targets closing to their favoured range, where they can make a real mess.
We all have finite resources in any given turn. And mathhammering just doesn’t work, because none of us in our entire lives will chuck enough dice to be statistically significant. With the Stompa, it only takes a single Kustom Force Field in the mix to start stuffing up the precious average.
Yes, Attack A has a reasonable chance of doing a proper pod shot on a lone Stompa. Unless it’s within KFF range. Sure. ’statisically’ the save will fail 2/3rds of the time. But that’s just not to the amusement of the Dice Gods. And well we know it from experience.
In short, ant statiscal analysis fails when your looking at things in an isolation that simply won’t ever happen on the board. Pretty much ever.
Oh? Tournaments! Of course. Every heavy weapon ever there is definitely a LasCannon with a re-roll to hit, wound and damage.
For clarity, this isn’t a pop at your goodself, just the wider mindset.
Statistic mean nothing in 40k. Not when get down to it.
Wow. That's complete nonsense. I play the game for 20 years now and i can say without doubt i'm doing statiscally fine with rolls. Sure everyone has a good or bad game roll but should we price units because of this? I already killed a full HP blood thirster with pistol boyz. 21 hit, 10 wounds (on 6+). Should we price the pistol boyz as devastator then?
I had also games where i had 0 armor saved with my kustom force field so should it be free? Sure you'll have to take into account all the combo that you can make in the army to price it correctly but find me a combo that worth the killing/tanking potential of a raven castellan with the current stompa and i may agree with you.
Also you can't point out great luck games or bad luck games to define if units ar good or bad. It has nothing to do with it. If stats aren't important then why the hell are we pricing units in points? According to that every unit could be deadly or useless at the same time. How do you balance this?
Statistic is everything in 40k. At least if you try to be a good player.
Despite being Well Clevers, I’m not sure I can properly translate, mathematically, re-rolling 1’s, then allowing for further 6’s from said re-roll, and the hitting again In fact, I totally can’t. Not even. Like. At all.
Reece stated in the frontline gaming chat that the bad moons stratagem "is awesome" when someone said they weren't sold on bad moons without seeing their strat first..
(Yeah, yeah, Reece and the stompa debacle might have damaged his cred, but he's still an excellent player)
PiñaColada wrote: Reece stated in the frontline gaming chat that the bad moons stratagem "is awesome" when someone said they weren't sold on bad moons without seeing their strat first..
(Yeah, yeah, Reece and the stompa debacle might have damaged his cred, but he's still an excellent player)
Stratagems are big deal. It's one of the things I'm waiting for before I commit to a paint scheme on my upcoming Speed Freaks army. I already have an old school Bad Moons army. Now it comes down to Evil Sunz or Blood Axes.
Blood axes strat wouldn't be that exciting if it wasn't for the fact that it's hard to get Ork units into cover, what with unit size and their preference for mid field and assault actions.
As it is it suits them pretty perfectly it seems to me, regardless of the strategem.
Now if evil sunz get to move twice, it is going to make walker and foot sloggers a real thing. A real damn thing.
On the French Wargame Studio Stream:
- Kustom Boom-blasta (red): 140 points
- Shockjump dragsta: 110 points
140 for the Boom-blasta seems really steep to me.
Indeed. 110 seems too much for the SJD which is probably the best of the new buggies as its AT which Orks lack. Was thinking sub 100. 140 for the jack of all trades KBB doesn't seem right. Paying full price for the burnas or some weird GW maths going on :/
Yeah, I seriously don't think GW will get our pricing right at all... i mean who can seriously sit there when the index first came out and go "yeah, it's okay for orkd to be paying double fir their twin linked weapons unlike every other fsction in 40k".
However, I am very much pleased with rules so far.
Guyver 3 wrote: Or it’s a case of gw thinking that an assault 6 st 7 2dam gun is really strong but forgetting that it’s on a unit with bs5+
Like I've been saying, all of the vehicles with the exception of the Dragsta are terrible. Granted we don't know the full weapon profile of the Scrapjet, but all of the other vehicles do on average 1-3 wounds to MEQ. It's a shame because they look so amazing, but they're all gak unless we get news of some neat stratagems of special rules that buff them.
PiñaColada wrote: Reece stated in the frontline gaming chat that the bad moons stratagem "is awesome" when someone said they weren't sold on bad moons without seeing their strat first..
(Yeah, yeah, Reece and the stompa debacle might have damaged his cred, but he's still an excellent player)
It’s likely a shoot again stratagem which would be awesome but hardly game changing
Ahahahaha....yep that "Ork codex sure is gonna be awesome"
140 points. Jesus. For a shooting vehicle that outputs fewer wounds on a vehicle than an 85-point Raider with a dark lance.
Well here I was thinking id find a decent vehicle to run my bonkers overpriced Grot Mega Tank as, but at those point values 169 points for 7 bs4+ rokkits is practically fearsome!
Whew, good thing I faltered before buying the speedfreeks box. At those points costs the vehicles feel a little DOA maybe they will errata them back down to reality.
Daedalus 2 weeks ago: "orks probably won't be changed in CA you won't have to buy it"
Daedalus now: "the buggies will surely be priced in CA no worries guys "
You've made a blunder.
I'm not claiming Orks will change in CA. I'm saying things around them will change. Good try though.
The are plenty of currently underpriced things you can compare a 140 point boosta blasta to and it comes out unfavorable. It's just extra funny when you compare it to things that are half decent.
For example:
Boosta blasta (140pts)
T6 W8 4+ averages 2 S7 ap-2 D2 hits.
Helverin (170pts)
T7 3+ 5++ W12(IIRC) averages 5.5 S8 ap-1 D3 hits.
Yep that sure looks like a 20% increase in effectiveness for a 20% increase in cost to me!!
Daedalus 2 weeks ago: "orks probably won't be changed in CA you won't have to buy it"
Daedalus now: "the buggies will surely be priced in CA no worries guys "
You've made a blunder.
I'm not claiming Orks will change in CA. I'm saying things around them will change. Good try though.
The are plenty of currently underpriced things you can compare a 140 point boosta blasta to and it comes out unfavorable. It's just extra funny when you compare it to things that are half decent.
For example:
Boosta blasta (140pts)
T6 W8 4+ averages 2 S7 ap-2 D2 hits.
Helverin (170pts)
T7 3+ 5++ W12(IIRC) averages 5.5 S8 ap-1 D3 hits.
Yep that sure looks like a 20% increase in effectiveness for a 20% increase in cost to me!!
We will just have to see what the codex looks like before we can make rash judgements.
geargutz wrote: it all comes down to how GW is unable to correctly price survivability and ballistic skill.
for suvivability they think sheer amounts of wounds is enough and a pitiful d3 wonds repaired a round. so our expensive beefy stompa should cost way more then the knight becasue double wounds right? nope. any lascanon will melt through those wounds in no time, we cant even stack repairs anymore.
for balistic skill they are the most ignorant game maker for their own rules. most will say that shooting is even better then it was last edition, so thus anything that doesnt shoot well should be cheap right? nope. orks still pay alot for the damage and shots of our wpns, not the actual hit chance. just look at the dragsta for evidence of this. its our most accurate model yet it is very close to price to all the other bs5 buggies we got.
the dragsta will probably be the best selling buggy during this release.
I think it’s obvious that gw costs units on what they could do not what they will averagely will do.
Really? So that’s why the Shadowsword that can potentially do 114 wounds to the Stompa in one phase costs only 404 points? They pointed it based on what it can do? It’s so obvious!
Well in that case you should know GW counts PREORDER date as to which month it goes. You would also know that as october WD was leaked well ahead there was 0 chance of orks before 13th. There was 3 days orks codex could be put on preorder and count as october release. 13th, 20th, 27th. Speed freaks would be coming first and codex later. That makes it 20th or 27th. Only thing of surprise was thus commander release. Even then codex comes in time for october release as anybody who has paid half the attention to GW's release system would know
Well in that case you should know GW counts PREORDER date as to which month it goes. You would also know that as october WD was leaked well ahead there was 0 chance of orks before 13th. There was 3 days orks codex could be put on preorder and count as october release. 13th, 20th, 27th. Speed freaks would be coming first and codex later. That makes it 20th or 27th. Only thing of surprise was thus commander release. Even then codex comes in time for october release as anybody who has paid half the attention to GW's release system would know
wow, i didn't realize GW does the exact same thing for other releases. they must've named a month after the eldar release and then said the month will be filled with eldar stuff. i guess the same goes for tau/admek/greyknights etc. man, i must've not realy paid any attention becasue i was not aware they had a necromarch!
sarcasm over
you keep trying to predict what ork players should've expected from this release, yet GW has done nothing similar for any other faction. maybe i missed something. feel free to come back to the discussion with some evidence that GW has done anything similar in any way to what they've done for us.
in the end they made it seem like orctober was for orks, and all we got was a box game, our codex and the rest of our models were slated for November. maybe GW should've shut their mouth instead of making promises/expectations they were not going to keep.
Well in that case you should know GW counts PREORDER date as to which month it goes. You would also know that as october WD was leaked well ahead there was 0 chance of orks before 13th. There was 3 days orks codex could be put on preorder and count as october release. 13th, 20th, 27th. Speed freaks would be coming first and codex later. That makes it 20th or 27th. Only thing of surprise was thus commander release. Even then codex comes in time for october release as anybody who has paid half the attention to GW's release system would know
There was still a chance it released sooner than November based on the beasts release.
You're still stating possibility as fact but on this occasion it works as you were proven right. However, you could have as easily been wrong.
With regards the WD leak it consisted of 2 pages, it could have contained more than it did...
FunJohn wrote: Sorry if i'm out of the loop, but how do we know the info the french guys have are real and not just really good, educated guesses?
How would you ever know? But they've predicted Ork stuff that seems to check out, and they predicted some things with the Deathwatch codex and Imperial Knights codex as well. They seem legit. I do hope they mixed up the rukkatrukk squigbuggy and the kustom boosta-blasta though. That would even make more sense because the KBB is only 5PL but the squigbuggy is 7PL which would translate to 140ish points.. The squigbuggy would be terrible at 140 points but so would all the buggies and since that one is already confirmed at 7PL let's hope there's only one buggy at that price point
FunJohn wrote: Sorry if i'm out of the loop, but how do we know the info the french guys have are real and not just really good, educated guesses?
They have good rep from previous leaks and so far their info has been tracking down including names. Bloody good educated guesses if they managed to guess names correctly! The fact they leaked names which proved to be true gives tons of credibility to their info.
FunJohn wrote: Sorry if i'm out of the loop, but how do we know the info the french guys have are real and not just really good, educated guesses?
They already have the codex in their hand since one or two weeks i think. They said the ork faction codex video will be released saturday. (or maybe it's a bat rep' i don't remember.)
I've asked in the chat if he is sure about the 140 points, but he has not yet responded.
PiñaColada wrote: I do hope they mixed up the rukkatrukk squigbuggy and the kustom boosta-blasta though.
That's a real possibility. For us frenchies (even for those who speak english), the new nomenclature used by GW is pretty hard to learn. And since the names are not translated in french anymore, it's even more confusing...
French Wargame Studios have a perfect track record though, so one of our vehicles definitely costs 140pts.
In the Signals from the frontline #613 Reece states that the waaagh banner gives you +1 to hit. (Aound 11 minutes in) so it seems like it's unchanged, unless he's mistaken. But a lot of people thought that maybe the banner would change because of the somewhat overlap with da lukky stikk.
Edit: He also states the Meganobz got a BIG point drop and that they'd ruin a lot of peoples day
Edit 2: He also mentions Da Jump and Warpath and says that they're really strong, so it seems like they are still in the codex at the very least
Edit 3: He reiterates that the Bad Moons stratagem is "really, really good"
PiñaColada wrote: In the Signals from the frontline #613 Reece states that the waaagh banner gives you +1 to hit. (Aound 11 minutes in) so it seems like it's unchanged, unless he's mistaken. But a lot of people thought that maybe the banner would change because of the somewhat overlap with da lukky stikk.
Edit: He also states the Meganobz got a BIG point drop and that they'd ruin a lot of peoples day
As if there never would be 2 sources for +1/-1 noooo ;-)
And Reece and his "this is going to rock". Stompa anyone? We also have French guys specifically calling out meganobz as still junk didn't we? Unless I misremember that I'll take their words over "Stompa is going to be so awesome" Reece. Then again he's IG player isn't he? Awesome target practice for IG so guess he wasn't wrong after all...
Jeez, the stompa thing again? Yeah, that was dumb. Maybe the meganobz still suck, but this is still more nuggets of info than we already had. Also, Reece does play Orks (maybe that makes the Stompa thing worse though)
PiñaColada wrote: Jeez, the stompa thing again? Yeah, that was dumb. Maybe the meganobz still suck, but this is still more nuggets of info than we already had. Also, Reece does play Orks (maybe that makes the Stompa thing worse though)
If we have contradicting claims and one on provenly unreliable source whom do you believe? The provenly unreliable source? Why would you do that? I go for the most reliable source whenever there's 2 conflicting information and Reece is NOT reliable source regarding orks. Stompa isn't even only thing his claims are off.
But yeah go ahead and believe the more unreliable source over reliable sources if you feel like. I would have some souls to sell if you are interested.
I'm not saying you should believe him. I'm saying he's saying this, filter it out if you want to. At the same time I feel like a big points drop doesn't necessarily equate to MANZ being good, but apart from how much you value the word big in that sentence it's also not an opinion
PiñaColada wrote: Jeez, the stompa thing again? Yeah, that was dumb. Maybe the meganobz still suck, but this is still more nuggets of info than we already had. Also, Reece does play Orks (maybe that makes the Stompa thing worse though)
i like reece, but unfortunately he will probably never live that snafu down. whenever he brings up an opnion on orks anyone can simply bring up this instance. now admittedly there could've been many factors that lead him to think the stompa was awesome (maybe he only played orks against bad index armies/bad match ups) but hindsight is a face eating squig. now that we know as much as we can about the index it was very apparent he knew very little at the time.
the only real way he can get this off his case is do a type of apology "i didn't know enough at the time yadda yadda yadda" and then state something about the new codex orks that can be proven later to be very valid.
until then everything he says is suspect and the evidence will always be the "stompa thing".
i think this snafu got blown out of proportion due to his place in the hobby. he is part of ITC and they now have big ties to GW and even participated in play testing. not only are they under scrutiny for balance of a large portion of the worlds tournaments but they are also under suspicion of being shills for GW. anything wrong they do/say is going to be enhanced and paraded about for the whole community to ridicule. its unfortunate but inevitable for reactions and stigmas like this to stick to him.
Stompa, grots. It's not like he was wrong in just that one. Multiple things he claimed were proven to be false even before nobody got to try out index first time. It's pretty obvious he didn't do any kind of simple mathhammer let alone take model out on field before making conclusion. Likely just looked at W40 and went "wow 40 wounds" before even thinking how fast that goes out with no inv save. Or maybe he had no point costs in his playtesting version so assumed it was more like 400 pts model rather than 1000 pts model.
If you have ever read any codex review from FLG, you know how to read Reece's comments on units. The worst evaluation a unit can get is "great in the right situation" - so unless he calls something highly competitive, do not assume too much.
There also is the issue of orks working vastly different than most other armies, so many bloggers make assumptions based on how a unit would perform in an army they actually do play.
Always check if the person giving their opinion on a unit actually plays orks regularly.
tneva82 wrote: Stompa, grots. It's not like he was wrong in just that one. Multiple things he claimed were proven to be false even before nobody got to try out index first time. It's pretty obvious he didn't do any kind of simple mathhammer let alone take model out on field before making conclusion. Likely just looked at W40 and went "wow 40 wounds" before even thinking how fast that goes out with no inv save. Or maybe he had no point costs in his playtesting version so assumed it was more like 400 pts model rather than 1000 pts model.
Or that time he said necrons were really strong. Yeah, sure, a faction who has has to rely on on expensive, specialized units to deal with certain threats, overall limited options, expensive characters and models, short ranged buffs that aren't even good and who's army gimmick can be easily negated by a savvy opponent is strong.
Yep. He gets stuff right with IG but track record outside IG is really dubious. Thus whenever he says "this is going to be awesome" that's not IG I take it with huge grain of salt. If other source disagrees then Reece's opinion on unit can go to the bin where it belongs.
tneva82 wrote: If we have contradicting claims and one on provenly unreliable source whom do you believe? The provenly unreliable source?
I know internet doesn't work like that but you know, "1 data point" =/= "proven"
You are aware right that Reece has multiple waaaaay off claims? Without even factoring in non-ork claims like Necrons(BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Necrons are strong? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! They are not GK level of suckyness but that's not saying much) even with orks he's wrong in multiple counts.
It's not just Stompa. If you think I'm only holding that against him brush up your reading skills as I have repeatedly said he's wrong in many cases.
How many times he needs to say wrong before you consider him inaccurate? 100000000000000? He has more statements wrong outside IG than he's correct. If you take what he says about power level of non-IG and think it's even same universum with truth then joke is on you.
I'm getting more and more worried for this codex... is this going to be 7th edition orks 2.0? I hope not but points are very important to this game. If a unit is half as effective as an enemy unit but is double the points then your opponent just counters you by bringing 2 of their units and smashing you while having 1 unit left over to smash more of your units.i jist have flashbacks to gork and mork.... great models but bad points and rules.
lolman1c wrote: I'm getting more and more worried for this codex... is this going to be 7th edition orks 2.0? I hope not but points are very important to this game. If a unit is half as effective as an enemy unit but is double the points then your opponent just counters you by bringing 2 of their units and smashing you while having 1 unit left over to smash more of your units.i jist have flashbacks to gork and mork.... great models but bad points and rules.
i know right.
maybe if kirioth is super rad and he is leaked the pts sheets for the codex can we dissuade our fears before the codex drops.
lolman1c wrote: I'm getting more and more worried for this codex... is this going to be 7th edition orks 2.0? I hope not but points are very important to this game. If a unit is half as effective as an enemy unit but is double the points then your opponent just counters you by bringing 2 of their units and smashing you while having 1 unit left over to smash more of your units.i jist have flashbacks to gork and mork.... great models but bad points and rules.
Certainly worrying. We are getting boost compared to our index so ork codex vs non-ork codex power gap will likely decrease. However index ork vs non-ork index gap seems to be actually increasing...
And it's not even just point costs that would solve things. 6 pts for ork boy might be good individually. 5 pts would meanwhile be ridiculous. But as an army 6 pts boyz wasn't working. 5pts boyz would also not be that much helpful. Indeed you wouldn't get enough boyz to really swamp over enemy anyway(issue you would run into would be deployment zone). Ork army has several issues with 8th ed core rules that are super hard to fix with just point costs. And doesn't look like point costs will be that great to begin with.
This is my speculation, Tankbustas base cost will go up and rokkit launchas will go down in points making them the same cost over all. Meganobs will likely drop 3 points base and the powerklaw may go down to 12 points like everyone else's powerfists (seriously why is ours 1 point more... ). Warbikers may drop around 2 points each, looking at marine bikes i can't see them dropping the points level of our bikes much...... This edition just hates bikes, unless your shining spears or dark eldar reavers!
I think our twin-linked weapons will come down in price, as why are we paying double or even more when other races get a small discount!? I can see deffkoptas dropping 5-10 points in total as they are crazy expensive. Gork/Morkanaut i can see dropping around 20 points base and then maybe another 10-20 points from the new updated weapon costs. Deffdreads really need to come down, we pay 4 points more than a normal dreadnought chassis that has 1 higher strength and BS 3+ Killa Kans i assume will stay the same base cost but will be cheaper overall due to the base weapons coming down.
Hopefully we get some cheeky surprise points cuts on our planes and other specialised squads like lootas and burnas but i cant see that happening.
They are putting a lot of emphasise on all the new buggies and speed freaks in general so I have a sneaky suspicion that all the efforts of the codex has been put towards them. Even though i was never going to use the Kustom Boosta Blasta; having it apparently cost 140 points doesnt give me much hope for the other buggies. If anything i would of thought the boomdakka snazzwagon and the KBB would be the cheapest of the lot (BDSW being around 90-100 points and the KBB being 80-90 points)
lolman1c wrote: I'm getting more and more worried for this codex... is this going to be 7th edition orks 2.0? I hope not but points are very important to this game. If a unit is half as effective as an enemy unit but is double the points then your opponent just counters you by bringing 2 of their units and smashing you while having 1 unit left over to smash more of your units.i jist have flashbacks to gork and mork.... great models but bad points and rules.
tneva82 wrote: Stompa, grots. It's not like he was wrong in just that one. Multiple things he claimed were proven to be false even before nobody got to try out index first time. It's pretty obvious he didn't do any kind of simple mathhammer let alone take model out on field before making conclusion. Likely just looked at W40 and went "wow 40 wounds" before even thinking how fast that goes out with no inv save. Or maybe he had no point costs in his playtesting version so assumed it was more like 400 pts model rather than 1000 pts model.
Maybe this has less to do with his competence and more with towing the company line so he doesn't lose his benefits.
yeah i'm not getting my hopes up... i've calculated the points for the frenchs guy army with the index and got to 1730ish points, he stated it was 1750 (codex) points so yeah... the wargear wasnt really an issue unless he played nobbikers instead of normal ones in which case we maybe got a total pointdrop of 50-100 points. thats about 3-5% across the board
but with the info of the squigbuggy beeing 140 and the dragsta beeing 110 points... yeah well... i am quite worried.
the squigbuggy has about the firepower, speed and durability of a venom which clocks in at 75 points AND can transport stuff...
the dragsta is basically a TL lascannon razoback but without the durability and transport capacity (for about the same points) it may has its place somewhere, since orks have some struggle to field AT platforms... but its surley not amazing.
furthermore
as many others pointed out, GW doesnt seem to understand that d6 more shots in an BS 5+ army just comes out as 1.2 more hits on average..
on the otherhand i like the 3d3 shots of the morkanaught... should have been done to more stuff. 2d3 is way better than d6
Well in that case you should know GW counts PREORDER date as to which month it goes. You would also know that as october WD was leaked well ahead there was 0 chance of orks before 13th. There was 3 days orks codex could be put on preorder and count as october release. 13th, 20th, 27th. Speed freaks would be coming first and codex later. That makes it 20th or 27th. Only thing of surprise was thus commander release. Even then codex comes in time for october release as anybody who has paid half the attention to GW's release system would know
I don't understand why you're bringing this up, or why you're explaining this meaningless semantical argument to me, when it was obvious that my counterpoint was that it was irrelevant.
Still last codex in 8th for a major faction. Still not in October.
deffrekka wrote: This is my speculation, Tankbustas base cost will go up and rokkit launchas will go down in points making them the same cost over all. Meganobs will likely drop 3 points base and the powerklaw may go down to 12 points like everyone else's powerfists (seriously why is ours 1 point more... ). Warbikers may drop around 2 points each, looking at marine bikes i can't see them dropping the points level of our bikes much...... This edition just hates bikes, unless your shining spears or dark eldar reavers!
I think our twin-linked weapons will come down in price, as why are we paying double or even more when other races get a small discount!? I can see deffkoptas dropping 5-10 points in total as they are crazy expensive. Gork/Morkanaut i can see dropping around 20 points base and then maybe another 10-20 points from the new updated weapon costs. Deffdreads really need to come down, we pay 4 points more than a normal dreadnought chassis that has 1 higher strength and BS 3+ Killa Kans i assume will stay the same base cost but will be cheaper overall due to the base weapons coming down.
Hopefully we get some cheeky surprise points cuts on our planes and other specialised squads like lootas and burnas but i cant see that happening.
They are putting a lot of emphasise on all the new buggies and speed freaks in general so I have a sneaky suspicion that all the efforts of the codex has been put towards them. Even though i was never going to use the Kustom Boosta Blasta; having it apparently cost 140 points doesnt give me much hope for the other buggies. If anything i would of thought the boomdakka snazzwagon and the KBB would be the cheapest of the lot (BDSW being around 90-100 points and the KBB being 80-90 points)
Just my thoughts overall.
Don't get me wrong, I did think the KBB was going to be near the most expensive, but so far everything we're hearing indicates that the buggies are going to be super overpriced generalists. Their durability is such that they go down to a couple lucky D6 damage rolls, and their pricing is based on them getting the absolute most out of their weaponry and melee capabilities.
A Harlequin voidweaver is A, considered to be crap by most players, B, equivalent to the squigbuggy in average damage or better against nearly every kind of target, C, much more durable with native -1 to hit and 4++ and D, costs 108 points. The squig buggy given the power difference between the boosta-blasta and the squig buggy, its likely to be 150 points or more.
If this is the set of vehicles GW is giving the hard sell in the codex....boy oh boy do I fear for the rest of the codex.
I just don't understand it at all. And this is why I seriously thi k the points might be wrong. Why would gw spend hundreds of thousands of £££ on vehicles that people won't want to buy? I k ow they've already done this before wuth the last ork stuff but they wouldn't fall for it again would they? They're not that bad?
I mean seriously, 150pts is far too high.. it would have been crazy to sit in a room and say "yep, that's okay". Unless the rumours of the play testers is correct and they sent droves of messages to gw telling them to nerf it and gw was like "damn, gotta knee jerk that reaction!". But come on! I think it's unbelievable to think that it's going to be 150pts so I doubt hte french dude. However, if it does turn iut to be 150pts then GW will just look silly.
Maybe gw rule writers just never pulls out of cc, or have buffer zones, or play races that can pull out and shoot into cc or play factions that are not suoer elite grey knights. Or maybe they wrote the codex before 8th edition even came out and they were just waiting for the models to be ready and the speed freaks game to be ready? This would be the reasons I think if the rumours are true.
lolman1c wrote: I just don't understand it at all. And this is why I seriously thi k the points might be wrong. Why would gw spend hundreds of thousands of £££ on vehicles that people won't want to buy? I k ow they've already done this before wuth the last ork stuff but they wouldn't fall for it again would they? They're not that bad?
Why GW made 'orkanauts so bad on release? DA flyers? Tau flyers? Dinobots? To make things good enough to sell actually requires developer to have some ability to balance things out. GW has proven time and again they don't hire people who know how to balance things. I'm sure they are nice people and would be blast to play against them as they seem to have attitude to the game I enjoy but in terms of writing good balanced game? Need to hire other kind of people as well.
Top of that doesn't even look like the developer team has had any dedicated ork player for YEARS. You can usually tell which armies somebody in the developer team has felt passionate about. If there's no die hard ork army no surprise ork army isn't getting as good rules. They very likely don't have grey knight fan either.
Well the good thing is that on Saturday we should have some youtube videos of people flipping through the new codex, so we should know by then.
But as Tneva stated, not all new models get great rules so it was somewhat expected that not all the buggies would be great IMO. But if the KBB is indeed priced at 140, GWs inability to price flamers aside, then I truly don't know what to say. This isn't like when Forgebane was released and the Armigers were 240 points but then dropped 70 points when the codex arrives. If these new buggies are truly priced that poorly then we might get a fix in the spring FAQ or more likely in CA 2019.
I'll buy most of the buggies anyways, since I like the models but you gotta wonder how much money GW is leaving on the table if the rules for them are terrible..The wartrike at 120 seems fine though, even the dragsta at 110 might work even if that price is probably 20 points too high IMO.
boosta blasta is 140 points base cost of chassie bout 35points weapons: grot blasta: a gretchin 3points rivet cannon: basically 2 lootaz so 34points exhaust: well 4 burnas so 14x4 = 56points stikkbombs are free (yay)
thats 128 throw in 12points for the d3 mortal wounds on a 4+ and VOILA! 140points worth of roosta crappa buggy
thats totally on par with a bs3, 5++, 3x s8 ap-4 d6dmg ravager!!!
The who "It will be fixed in CA" is a terrible argument though. So you're telling me that in order to get the true rules to the Orks I not only had to wait over a year but now have to wait a few more months and buy another book? Couldn't they have just got it right the first time and saved me £25?
Man, we got a good deal on those stikkbombs! Nerf incoming?
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lolman1c wrote: The who "It will be fixed in CA" is a terrible argument though. So you're telling me that in order to get the true rules to the Orks I not only had to wait over a year but now have to wait a few more months and buy another book? Couldn't they have just got it right the first time and saved me £25?
I'm not saying I want that to happen, just saying that the CA in like 14 months would be the most likely place they would fix any potential problems. So let's hope the rumoured points are off
RedNoak wrote: i think i figured out GW ork point policy...
boosta blasta is 140 points
base cost of chassie bout 35points
weapons:
grot blasta: a gretchin 3points
rivet cannon: basically 2 lootaz so 34points
exhaust: well 4 burnas so 14x4 = 56points
stikkbombs are free (yay)
thats 128 throw in 12points for the d3 mortal wounds on a 4+
and VOILA! 140points worth of roosta crappa buggy
thats totally on par with a bs3, 5++, 10 model carrying, 3x s8 ap-4 d6dmg ravager!!!
lolman1c wrote: The who "It will be fixed in CA" is a terrible argument though. So you're telling me that in order to get the true rules to the Orks I not only had to wait over a year but now have to wait a few more months and buy another book? Couldn't they have just got it right the first time and saved me £25?
Top of that CA2018 is too soon to codex to even include point costs due to lead times. So it will be CA2019 earliest.
Considering how late the codex release is, there is no excuse for either external or internal balance. I don't buy that argument. They had play testers that confirmed the existence of each of these things over month in advance.
They should at least be ballpark. 30-50 points overcosted on a 100-150 pt model is legitimately not excusible.
I want the models based on aesthetics, fluff, panache and design. I need a gameplay reason for the next step. I'll buy one or two to support them for getting everything else right. Please consider game design,.GW. it's not an afterthought.
None of those buggies (save for the wartrike which is obviously different) should be over 100 points. The Gragster is the best one and shouldnt be over 100. Wartrike I would spend 140 on. MAYBE 160. knowing that they will all be minimum 140 with wartrike being 220.
geargutz wrote: it all comes down to how GW is unable to correctly price survivability and ballistic skill.
for suvivability they think sheer amounts of wounds is enough and a pitiful d3 wonds repaired a round. so our expensive beefy stompa should cost way more then the knight becasue double wounds right? nope. any lascanon will melt through those wounds in no time, we cant even stack repairs anymore.
for balistic skill they are the most ignorant game maker for their own rules. most will say that shooting is even better then it was last edition, so thus anything that doesnt shoot well should be cheap right? nope. orks still pay alot for the damage and shots of our wpns, not the actual hit chance. just look at the dragsta for evidence of this. its our most accurate model yet it is very close to price to all the other bs5 buggies we got.
the dragsta will probably be the best selling buggy during this release.
I think it’s obvious that gw costs units on what they could do not what they will averagely will do.
Really? So that’s why the Shadowsword that can potentially do 114 wounds to the Stompa in one phase costs only 404 points? They pointed it based on what it can do? It’s so obvious!
Sorry I wasn’t clear but I was refurring to ork units generally being costed at max efficiency as we’re in an ork forum,
GW are totally random with over/under costing in other armies.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: None of those buggies (save for the wartrike which is obviously different) should be over 100 points. The Gragster is the best one and shouldnt be over 100. Wartrike I would spend 140 on. MAYBE 160. knowing that they will all be minimum 140 with wartrike being 220.
If we're going off just PL, the squig truck will be the most expensive points wise (which is nuts as it looks the weakest). I'll guess 90-130 points for the lot.
Without trolling, I'm genuinely not understanding why peeps feel the Squigtrukk is the weakest.
Looking at it, it's the most flexible of all the buggies, with ammo types to pose a threat to most targets. The others feel far more specialised. Squig Mine though is more 'nice to have' than a reason to take the Buggy, that I get.
Massive mistake on gws part
Expensive in £££
Over priced in points
Weak rules
I just can’t justify taking any of them in a game and I play speed freaks!!
If they dropped the points to a normal level 75-100 maybe but this is the case yet again that gw just doesn’t understand orks or how to points cost them.
I sound ungrateful but it actually tears me up that I won’t be buying or using these fantastic models.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Without trolling, I'm genuinely not understanding why peeps feel the Squigtrukk is the weakest.
Looking at it, it's the most flexible of all the buggies, with ammo types to pose a threat to most targets. The others feel far more specialised. Squig Mine though is more 'nice to have' than a reason to take the Buggy, that I get.
Heh you actually like it for reason it's bad then. Flexible. Generalist. In edition where specialitation rules.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Without trolling, I'm genuinely not understanding why peeps feel the Squigtrukk is the weakest.
Looking at it, it's the most flexible of all the buggies, with ammo types to pose a threat to most targets. The others feel far more specialised. Squig Mine though is more 'nice to have' than a reason to take the Buggy, that I get.
Heh you actually like it for reason it's bad then. Flexible. Generalist. In edition where specialitation rules.
I also like the squig buggy for its flexibility too. Am I also wrong? For people that like all comers lists it's fine. Conversely the much applauded shokkjump dragsta would be terrible against hordes.
There's more than one way to play and you don't surprise me you aren't keen on flexibility...
Okay, the fact is I am now calming down and 150pts is far to much. I think maybe he payed 150pts for two because I honestly couldn't see even GW being that bad. You're expected to take 3 in a unit so that would mean 3 would be about the same price as the smaller baneblades.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Without trolling, I'm genuinely not understanding why peeps feel the Squigtrukk is the weakest.
Looking at it, it's the most flexible of all the buggies, with ammo types to pose a threat to most targets. The others feel far more specialised. Squig Mine though is more 'nice to have' than a reason to take the Buggy, that I get.
I think the issue is that, at the competitive end of the game, many find it better to either focus the entire army on specialist roles to push through an agenda, hoping your opponent isn't the perfect counter to that angle. And/Or that instead of generalist units, one goes for a generalist army approach comprised of specialists. Ergo instead of trying to take units with general roles, they take specialists which cover different specific roles so that the army in general has the variety of tools.
So whilst a generalist looks variable and adaptable on paper, in their view of the game, the generalist doesn't do any role best
Vineheart01 wrote: i swear to god everything new GW puts out for other factions is always underpriced by a medium to large margin, but orks is always overpriced.....
Ah yes that urban myth again.
To do that deliberately requires skill in balancing. Ability gw designers lack
Vineheart01 wrote: i swear to god everything new GW puts out for other factions is always underpriced by a medium to large margin, but orks is always overpriced.....
What are the costs like in the codex then?... Clearly you've seen them and how they function alongside the kulturs and strategems?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Without trolling, I'm genuinely not understanding why peeps feel the Squigtrukk is the weakest.
Looking at it, it's the most flexible of all the buggies, with ammo types to pose a threat to most targets. The others feel far more specialised. Squig Mine though is more 'nice to have' than a reason to take the Buggy, that I get.
Heh you actually like it for reason it's bad then. Flexible. Generalist. In edition where specialitation rules.
I also like the squig buggy for its flexibility too. Am I also wrong? For people that like all comers lists it's fine. Conversely the much applauded shokkjump dragsta would be terrible against hordes.
There's more than one way to play and you don't surprise me you aren't keen on flexibility...
Just because we disagree doesn't make us wrong.
Oh for fun everything can be played. I'm looking at competively. 2 specialised is more powerfull than 2 generalist. You don't take dragsta vs horde. Duh. You take that vs tough targets and other vs horde and thus crush those who take generalist. Gw can't do good generalists. If you want power you take specialists. If you aim for weah list take generalist
As for are you wrong no. It's 100% valid to take subpar units as self handicap. They are still weaker option though
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Without trolling, I'm genuinely not understanding why peeps feel the Squigtrukk is the weakest.
Looking at it, it's the most flexible of all the buggies, with ammo types to pose a threat to most targets. The others feel far more specialised. Squig Mine though is more 'nice to have' than a reason to take the Buggy, that I get.
Let's break it down here a bit, looking specifically at the Squigbuggy and the Boosta-Blasta, because they are the generalists of the bunch, with mixed anti-tank/anti-infantry.
-Both have an "extra" means to cause D3 mortal wounds. The squigbuggy does mortal wounds if an opponent chooses to move onto an area, once per game. The boosta-blasta does mortal wounds 50% of the time when it charges, as many times as it wants. Point Boosta-blasta, for the same reason the Reaver bikes' grav-talon is better than the cluster caltrops: a source of mortal wounds where your opponent has to choose to take them will always be worse than one you get to choose.
-Both have an anti-infantry damage spike at close range. For the squigbuggy, that's 1.16 S3 hits and .666 S5 hits. For the boosta-blasta, that's 8 s4 hits. Definitely point for the boosta-blasta.
-The 'main gun' on the squigbuggy does 3 options, the main gun on the boosta-blasta only does one, it's true. Again I'll go off hits to factor in the mixed BS.
Boosta-Blasta gets 2 S7 AP-2 D2 hits from the rivet cannon.
There is almost no target in the entire game you could line up any one of those profiles for the squig cannons against the rivet cannon and do more damage with the squig cannons. Primaris Marines, Terminators, single wounds MEQ, and amazingly, lest you think "but the squig cannon has an anti infantry option!" the rivet cannon gets more kills if you aim it at GEQ. And if you think "wait, what about Grotesques, where they'll be getting invulnerable saves and making the AP-2 useless and getting mileage out of the poison 4+? nope. 1.48 wounds from the rivet cannon, 1.3 wounds from the poison squigs.
The "versatility" you get from the squigbuggy is a complete false choice. For one thing, the boom squig is NEVER EVER the best thing to shoot under any circumstance. Even in situations where you think "here's where I use the boom squig, against Terminators when the extra AP matters, right?" the bitey squig is better.
It's not "the generalist, better at being decent at everything". It's just straight up worse than the other generalist, and it's the most expensive for some reason.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Without trolling, I'm genuinely not understanding why peeps feel the Squigtrukk is the weakest.
Looking at it, it's the most flexible of all the buggies, with ammo types to pose a threat to most targets. The others feel far more specialised. Squig Mine though is more 'nice to have' than a reason to take the Buggy, that I get.
Heh you actually like it for reason it's bad then. Flexible. Generalist. In edition where specialitation rules.
I also like the squig buggy for its flexibility too. Am I also wrong? For people that like all comers lists it's fine. Conversely the much applauded shokkjump dragsta would be terrible against hordes.
There's more than one way to play and you don't surprise me you aren't keen on flexibility...
Just because we disagree doesn't make us wrong.
Oh for fun everything can be played. I'm looking at competively. 2 specialised is more powerfull than 2 generalist. You don't take dragsta vs horde. Duh. You take that vs tough targets and other vs horde and thus crush those who take generalist. Gw can't do good generalists. If you want power you take specialists. If you aim for weah list take generalist
As for are you wrong no. It's 100% valid to take subpar units as self handicap. They are still weaker option though
Duh indeed. If you're playing competitively you don't know what you're playing against. That's part of my point.
How can you factually state things are subpar when they've not been played and we don't have points costs.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Without trolling, I'm genuinely not understanding why peeps feel the Squigtrukk is the weakest.
Looking at it, it's the most flexible of all the buggies, with ammo types to pose a threat to most targets. The others feel far more specialised. Squig Mine though is more 'nice to have' than a reason to take the Buggy, that I get.
Heh you actually like it for reason it's bad then. Flexible. Generalist. In edition where specialitation rules.
I also like the squig buggy for its flexibility too. Am I also wrong? For people that like all comers lists it's fine. Conversely the much applauded shokkjump dragsta would be terrible against hordes.
There's more than one way to play and you don't surprise me you aren't keen on flexibility...
Just because we disagree doesn't make us wrong.
Oh for fun everything can be played. I'm looking at competively. 2 specialised is more powerfull than 2 generalist. You don't take dragsta vs horde. Duh. You take that vs tough targets and other vs horde and thus crush those who take generalist. Gw can't do good generalists. If you want power you take specialists. If you aim for weah list take generalist
As for are you wrong no. It's 100% valid to take subpar units as self handicap. They are still weaker option though
Duh indeed. If you're playing competitively you don't know what you're playing against. That's part of my point.
How can you factually state things are subpar when they've not been played and we don't have points costs.
Why are generalists 'so bad'?!
Dakka is mostly populated by competitive and ultra-competitive players. Especially the ITC or whatever it's called. You'll see if you spend any time in the 40k board. As such, the majority of discussions here are based around competitive play and as such, unless it's high powered for tournament play, a unit will typically be dismissed as trash and generalist lists not really given much attention. Math-hammer rules here I'm afraid.
Fine, I accept and understand high level competition. What I don't accept is the constant statement of"facts" from certain individuals which are misleading to more impressionable/ younger forum members.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Without trolling, I'm genuinely not understanding why peeps feel the Squigtrukk is the weakest.
Looking at it, it's the most flexible of all the buggies, with ammo types to pose a threat to most targets. The others feel far more specialised. Squig Mine though is more 'nice to have' than a reason to take the Buggy, that I get.
Heh you actually like it for reason it's bad then. Flexible. Generalist. In edition where specialitation rules.
I also like the squig buggy for its flexibility too. Am I also wrong? For people that like all comers lists it's fine. Conversely the much applauded shokkjump dragsta would be terrible against hordes.
There's more than one way to play and you don't surprise me you aren't keen on flexibility...
Just because we disagree doesn't make us wrong.
Oh for fun everything can be played. I'm looking at competively. 2 specialised is more powerfull than 2 generalist. You don't take dragsta vs horde. Duh. You take that vs tough targets and other vs horde and thus crush those who take generalist. Gw can't do good generalists. If you want power you take specialists. If you aim for weah list take generalist
As for are you wrong no. It's 100% valid to take subpar units as self handicap. They are still weaker option though
Duh indeed. If you're playing competitively you don't know what you're playing against. That's part of my point.
How can you factually state things are subpar when they've not been played and we don't have points costs.
Why are generalists 'so bad'?!
Dakka is mostly populated by competitive and ultra-competitive players. Especially the ITC or whatever it's called. You'll see if you spend any time in the 40k board. As such, the majority of discussions here are based around competitive play and as such, unless it's high powered for tournament play, a unit will typically be dismissed as trash and generalist lists not really given much attention. Math-hammer rules here I'm afraid.
Math-hammer does not necessarily mean a person is a competitive tournament player, it just means you actually take the time to see whether something is ACTUALLY a generalist or if you just think it's a generalist because you see multiple different attack profiles and think "ah, this must be better against a wide variety of things."
I have never played in a tournament. This doesn't mean I can't use math to figure out that the Rivet Cannon is better than any profile on the squig cannons against guardsmen, marines, primaris marines, terminators, standard tanks, light tanks, high toughness targets with invuln saves, and pretty much anything and everything you can come up with.
rtb02 wrote: Fine, I accept and understand high level competition. What I don't accept is the constant statement of"facts" from certain individuals which are misleading to more impressionable/ younger forum members.
What? This isn't a self-help forum for young/impressionable kids. It's a 40k forum and it's actually a good thing that some unit choices are objectively bad in a competitive sense so people don't waste their money :p Money > protecting these unknown young impressionable kids.
The problem with generalists is that in 40k you have only a couple of turns to do things and most of the time you can't be doing multiple things at the same time. Why I want a mediocre shooting and mediocre meele unit that will have a mediocre round of shooting one turn and a mediocre round of meele another turn when I can have an excelent shooting unit that will have two excelent shooting rounds or two excelent meele rounds.
And on top of that, GW always overprice generalist as if that was a strenght when in 40k it is a weakness. I love my generalists, don't think I don't, but I haven't had really a game where they worked as they should. They are nearly always a let down.
That was the worst clan focus ever...... Top unit is a Mek Shop.... what?! Are you sure GW.... Right ok whatever, i would of mentioned some strats for Speed Freak keyword aligned units, not re-using the billowing exhausts we got from the buggy preview. And we have already seen the rules for the speedwaaagh! Maybe show some more of the Deffkilla wartrikes datasheet instead....
Such a bad focus honestly. I was hyped for today's article and it basically revealed nothing new and exciting for my favourite clan. They might as well skip today's faction focus as that was how helpful and insightful it was!!!
Really annoyed me. Kills my hype....
Ill just wait for a proper YouTube review on saturday, atleast that wont disappoint me with new information, instead of recycled news.
At least the +2 to move for speed freaks is nice. With all the bad luck of the world you'll make a 21" a turn (16 move+2 advance+3 charge with reroll) and average 28 without the reroll for charge.
Looks really nasty to me. Im still nervous about the points cost for everything, but barring that it looks like we have a lot of good options so far with the different klan rules providing some unique playstyles
That would be amazing. +2 to move and able to use the -1 to hit strat. Only thing is you cant advance and charge anymore (unless you bring an index biker boss I guess?)
Galas wrote: The problem with generalists is that in 40k you have only a couple of turns to do things and most of the time you can't be doing multiple things at the same time. Why I want a mediocre shooting and mediocre meele unit that will have a mediocre round of shooting one turn and a mediocre round of meele another turn when I can have an excelent shooting unit that will have two excelent shooting rounds or two excelent meele rounds.
And on top of that, GW always overprice generalist as if that was a strenght when in 40k it is a weakness. I love my generalists, don't think I don't, but I haven't had really a game where they worked as they should. They are nearly always a let down.
I'm not even saying generalists are always bad. They're usually bad, but when you have an instance where a unit really can do all the things it's intended to do at once, I think it can work.
The boosta-blasta is a great example of a generalist that could be perfectly functional. It's fast enough to get to burna range and possibly even assault range turn one, and it can theoretically do all its stuff - burn with the burna exhaust, charge that unit or a different unit for some mortal wounds, and plunk away at some elites or a vehicle with the rivet cannon - all in one turn.
The problem is, you have another generalist, with a higher Power Level, that is straight up worse at every single thing that boosta-blasta is doing on its turn.
yes, the over-competitive viewpoint of "if it's not one-rounding a House Raven castellan in one turn it's garbage" is obnoxious, but I don't think that means you should stick your fingers in your ears and yell LA LA LA I HATE MATH MATH IS BAD when someone points out that one of these two units does EVERYTHING better than this other unit that is more expensive than it, so you should probably pick one over the other.
Honestly I think it is a good thing for folks to be nervous over cost because I have yet to see anything aside from the squig buggy that wasn't REALLY strong. Jesus, the Klan Kulturs are gross, I mean the blood axe one for example is hyve fleet Jormungandre and Kraken rolled in one. Even the simple ones like Goff and snakebite are strong but they just don't look it next to the other Kulturs. The last thing anyone should want is the DE treatment. The army finally gets fixed and now I can't play it because they also dropped all the costs edging it into broken territory. Orks just needed to work in the first place. With the old rules a boy could cost 2 points and they would still lose. Just wait a week or two after the book drops. This release is looking very good. I mean, 6 kits on top of only good traits was already a good sign.
16" movement on bikes. 4.5" advance. Then charge with a trike.
Yeah it makes warbikes (possibly nob bikers if they are in the codex, otherwise the Index version wont get the keyword), deffkoptas, all the buggies except the squigbuggy quick and especially the Shokkjump Dragsta as it will be moving 16" before advancing too, however you dont necessarily need that much speed on those units.
With movement 14" base, advancing 3-4" on average and charging 2d6 rerollable thats a 24-26" turn 1 threat range. With Evil Sunz thats 28-30" turn 1 threat range. Yeah that sounds amazing, unless the opponent has a wall of chaff blocking off the cookie jar.... So you then have to hope you have enough dakka (you never have enough dakka) to clear a path to those tasty targets.
Im not saying its a bad trait for Speed Freaks as 1.) it forces the opponent to deploy further back into their deployment zone which is conceding board space. 2.) your more likely to make the charge turn 1 even if it is into a chaff unit. 3.) you remain just as accurate (orky wise?) when you advance with all those bikers/koptas/buggies. 4.) Can cover more distance to grab objectives.
However all those units so far are 1.) overcosted (as of yet). 2.) already pretty damn quick. 3.) inaccurate with ranged to clear GEQ. 4.) non of these units are objective secured so if there is one lone guardsmen on that objective its still his.
Personally Blood Axes seem to be the best trait for Speed Freak units, getting the cover bonus is so much more important for these fragile units than moving 3" more before charging. And then you have the added bonus of being able to fall back and charge without being fored to take the Evil Sunz rumoured Warlord Trait!
The planes arent affected by the Clan Trait at all and i would most likely make them Bad Moons for the reroll 1's to hit and the possible shooty aligned stratagem, Snakebites for the 6+++ and the strat to make there supa shootas hurt monsters and vehicles better (good for the dakka jet) or blood axes again to make them have a 3+ save (better than the deathskulls 6++ as most AT weapons used are ap3 or 2, ap4 is for the eldar/deldar or they have haywire so either case its moot).
Thats my general workings out for the evil sunz trait. Im open to new opinions but i agree with the general consensus that this trait is better for kan walls and greentides which is unfluffy. Though kan walls make some sense as they have can souped up engines on there dreads.
This response isnt aimed at you in a negative way TedNugent im just on a tangent
JimOnMars wrote: Does anyone plan on returning Speed Freeks? It seems like a defective product.
What's the problem with it? I'm honestly asking, was planning on picking it up friday or saturday.
Also, people keep talking about how overcosted the new buggies are (points wise). not that I'm disputing that, but have points been confirmed, or are just extrapolating from the power levels that have been shown?
Reece says every new codex is amazing. I think calling Reece a shill is unfair; but he literally makes a living selling GW products. Just always keep that in mind when reading his opinions.
16" movement on bikes. 4.5" advance. Then charge with a trike.
Yeah it makes warbikes (possibly nob bikers if they are in the codex, otherwise the Index version wont get the keyword), deffkoptas, all the buggies except the squigbuggy quick and especially the Shokkjump Dragsta as it will be moving 16" before advancing too, however you dont necessarily need that much speed on those units.
With movement 14" base, advancing 3-4" on average and charging 2d6 rerollable thats a 24-26" turn 1 threat range. With Evil Sunz thats 28-30" turn 1 threat range. Yeah that sounds amazing, unless the opponent has a wall of chaff blocking off the cookie jar.... So you then have to hope you have enough dakka (you never have enough dakka) to clear a path to those tasty targets.
Im not saying its a bad trait for Speed Freaks as 1.) it forces the opponent to deploy further back into their deployment zone which is conceding board space. 2.) your more likely to make the charge turn 1 even if it is into a chaff unit. 3.) you remain just as accurate (orky wise?) when you advance with all those bikers/koptas/buggies. 4.) Can cover more distance to grab objectives.
However all those units so far are 1.) overcosted (as of yet). 2.) already pretty damn quick. 3.) inaccurate with ranged to clear GEQ. 4.) non of these units are objective secured so if there is one lone guardsmen on that objective its still his.
Personally Blood Axes seem to be the best trait for Speed Freak units, getting the cover bonus is so much more important for these fragile units than moving 3" more before charging. And then you have the added bonus of being able to fall back and charge without being fored to take the Evil Sunz rumoured Warlord Trait!
The planes arent affected by the Clan Trait at all and i would most likely make them Bad Moons for the reroll 1's to hit and the possible shooty aligned stratagem, Snakebites for the 6+++ and the strat to make there supa shootas hurt monsters and vehicles better (good for the dakka jet) or blood axes again to make them have a 3+ save (better than the deathskulls 6++ as most AT weapons used are ap3 or 2, ap4 is for the eldar/deldar or they have haywire so either case its moot).
Thats my general workings out for the evil sunz trait. Im open to new opinions but i agree with the general consensus that this trait is better for kan walls and greentides which is unfluffy. Though kan walls make some sense as they have can souped up engines on there dreads.
This response isnt aimed at you in a negative way TedNugent im just on a tangent
Evil suns is the right clan for an army made up of bikes and buggy end of. The kulture doesn’t matter. Blood axe fast army is just not right. If you are only worried about competeive play and not at all about the fluff then why play the game? I really don’t get it. I’m not having to pick clans for my army. It’s all painted up as clans and they will be the clans they are. I couldn’t change them, it’d be like renaming my children.
JimOnMars wrote: Does anyone plan on returning Speed Freeks? It seems like a defective product.
Ive yet to buy Speedfreaks. I was aiming to get it originally (2 boxes to be precise) but since the reviews i have been put off the buggies in general. I am usually a patient lingerer on this forum, and probably would of stayed that way but that clan focus has set me off
If i did order it i probably would of returned it, its quite expensive to begin with and now im getting the feeling that non of the things in it are actually needed which is a shame as im a speedfreak at heart with my Evil Sunz. Orkz are my love for 12 years but since the Eldar/Guard dexes have been released i have shelved the lot.
Orkz could hold there own vs marines, dark angels, death guard and grey knights in many ways that dont involve just green tide,but since the newer dexes it has just been a struggle. So i have been playing my Admech/Skitarii (non soup) army at tournaments (and placing fairly high usually top 5) and since Dark Eldar were released i have been using them and they have been such a blast to play. I dont use Black Heart, i used Kabal of the Flayed Skull and Red Grief.
All i wanted was the Ork dex to be like the Deldar one, good strong internal balance with loads of play styles available. I dont want them to OP, just all round good like Tyranids were before there CA nerfing.
From the leaks and rumours it doesnt look that way, yes it is still early days as we have yet to have the codex in hand but i am starting to feel burnt out already.... this "Orktober" has been the worst....
lolman1c wrote: I just don't understand it at all. And this is why I seriously thi k the points might be wrong. Why would gw spend hundreds of thousands of £££ on vehicles that people won't want to buy? I k ow they've already done this before wuth the last ork stuff but they wouldn't fall for it again would they? They're not that bad?
Why GW made 'orkanauts so bad on release? DA flyers? Tau flyers? Dinobots? To make things good enough to sell actually requires developer to have some ability to balance things out. GW has proven time and again they don't hire people who know how to balance things. I'm sure they are nice people and would be blast to play against them as they seem to have attitude to the game I enjoy but in terms of writing good balanced game? Need to hire other kind of people as well.
Top of that doesn't even look like the developer team has had any dedicated ork player for YEARS. You can usually tell which armies somebody in the developer team has felt passionate about. If there's no die hard ork army no surprise ork army isn't getting as good rules. They very likely don't have grey knight fan either.
Also models do sell despite bad rules.
So you're finally admitting they don't point models to sell? Hallelujah!
thats totally on par with a bs3, 5++, 3x s8 ap-4 d6dmg ravager!!!
And here's the problem - everyone is trying to compare these to the most borked units they know. When you stop doing that you'll have a better time.
That isn't to say that Ravagers should get nerfed into the ground - every faction should have their advantages and not everything should be a like for like as Ravagers don't plow into combat with rerolls to charge.
16" movement on bikes. 4.5" advance. Then charge with a trike.
Yeah it makes warbikes (possibly nob bikers if they are in the codex, otherwise the Index version wont get the keyword), deffkoptas, all the buggies except the squigbuggy quick and especially the Shokkjump Dragsta as it will be moving 16" before advancing too, however you dont necessarily need that much speed on those units.
With movement 14" base, advancing 3-4" on average and charging 2d6 rerollable thats a 24-26" turn 1 threat range. With Evil Sunz thats 28-30" turn 1 threat range. Yeah that sounds amazing, unless the opponent has a wall of chaff blocking off the cookie jar.... So you then have to hope you have enough dakka (you never have enough dakka) to clear a path to those tasty targets.
Im not saying its a bad trait for Speed Freaks as 1.) it forces the opponent to deploy further back into their deployment zone which is conceding board space. 2.) your more likely to make the charge turn 1 even if it is into a chaff unit. 3.) you remain just as accurate (orky wise?) when you advance with all those bikers/koptas/buggies. 4.) Can cover more distance to grab objectives.
However all those units so far are 1.) overcosted (as of yet). 2.) already pretty damn quick. 3.) inaccurate with ranged to clear GEQ. 4.) non of these units are objective secured so if there is one lone guardsmen on that objective its still his.
Personally Blood Axes seem to be the best trait for Speed Freak units, getting the cover bonus is so much more important for these fragile units than moving 3" more before charging. And then you have the added bonus of being able to fall back and charge without being fored to take the Evil Sunz rumoured Warlord Trait!
The planes arent affected by the Clan Trait at all and i would most likely make them Bad Moons for the reroll 1's to hit and the possible shooty aligned stratagem, Snakebites for the 6+++ and the strat to make there supa shootas hurt monsters and vehicles better (good for the dakka jet) or blood axes again to make them have a 3+ save (better than the deathskulls 6++ as most AT weapons used are ap3 or 2, ap4 is for the eldar/deldar or they have haywire so either case its moot).
Thats my general workings out for the evil sunz trait. Im open to new opinions but i agree with the general consensus that this trait is better for kan walls and greentides which is unfluffy. Though kan walls make some sense as they have can souped up engines on there dreads.
This response isnt aimed at you in a negative way TedNugent im just on a tangent
Evil suns is the right clan for an army made up of bikes and buggy end of. The kulture doesn’t matter. Blood axe fast army is just not right. If you are only worried about competeive play and not at all about the fluff then why play the game? I really don’t get it. I’m not having to pick clans for my army. It’s all painted up as clans and they will be the clans they are. I couldn’t change them, it’d be like renaming my children.
Maybe because my Orkz have been getting the shaft since 6th edition and its getting quite boring and pathetic... 4th ed was the golden age when i played orkz (even if you didnt run the nob biker cheese). And believe it or not wanting to have a good list doesnt mean instantly that all you want to do it play competitively. Blood Axes still have speedfreaks and mekheads, evil sunz arent the only ones to have exclusively bikes and buggies. There are many ways to explain why Blood Axe buggies would get cover, they could cover their advance with a wave of smog and dust, like ghazghkull did to beat his badmoon nemesis on his home planet. You can even say that the bikes are using feints and withdraw tactics, darting and jinking there way to the front line.
Not all orkz are mindless zoggers who just blindly get zogged in the face countless times. I always play to my armies fluff, i have names for all my characters, nobs, their units and vehicles. I have custom made blast templates and dice for them (RIP templates.... ) and my clan is call Da Red Hand Smashas lead by Warlord Deffrekka Da 'Ead Hunter. So try not to assume how someone else plays. Everyone has there own play styles and i wouldnt judge anyone for there own way.
All i simply stated was that the Evil Sunz trait isnt efficient for the actual Speed Freaks, i never said that im playing my bikers are blood axes, i said they seem the best option that gives them something they need.
lolman1c wrote: The who "It will be fixed in CA" is a terrible argument though. So you're telling me that in order to get the true rules to the Orks I not only had to wait over a year but now have to wait a few more months and buy another book? Couldn't they have just got it right the first time and saved me £25?
No one is saying that. As noted above - the best things people are comparing to can easily be nerfed. Whether or not GW will do so is up in the air.
If GW repoints Orks in CA then they have a playtesting process that needs way more room to breathe.
JimOnMars wrote: Does anyone plan on returning Speed Freeks? It seems like a defective product.
What's the problem with it? I'm honestly asking, was planning on picking it up friday or saturday.
Also, people keep talking about how overcosted the new buggies are (points wise). not that I'm disputing that, but have points been confirmed, or are just extrapolating from the power levels that have been shown?
They are (according to rumors) going to be 140 points.
JimOnMars wrote: Does anyone plan on returning Speed Freeks? It seems like a defective product.
What's the problem with it? I'm honestly asking, was planning on picking it up friday or saturday.
Also, people keep talking about how overcosted the new buggies are (points wise). not that I'm disputing that, but have points been confirmed, or are just extrapolating from the power levels that have been shown?
They are (according to rumors) going to be 140 points.
Two buggies do not make a knight.
#twobuggiesisnotaknight.
What is it with geedubz and releasing new ork models that are generally terrible? Last edition it was flash gitz, little meks, orkanauts, and to a lesser extent meganobz (mek gunz were and are good, I'll give them that). Now its 6 flashy new buggies which are (likely) obscenely overcosted. I mean, it doesn't surprise me, but I thought that new models were supposed to be OP? (See Castellans for a recent example).
I mean, hell's bells. If they are ~140 points each, imagine taking 6 buggies v. a castellan, and see who would win! (Hint: it's not orks).
JimOnMars wrote: Does anyone plan on returning Speed Freeks? It seems like a defective product.
What's the problem with it? I'm honestly asking, was planning on picking it up friday or saturday.
Also, people keep talking about how overcosted the new buggies are (points wise). not that I'm disputing that, but have points been confirmed, or are just extrapolating from the power levels that have been shown?
They are (according to rumors) going to be 140 points.
Two buggies do not make a knight.
#twobuggiesisnotaknight.
What is it with geedubz and releasing new ork models that are generally terrible? Last edition it was flash gitz, little meks, orkanauts, and to a lesser extent meganobz (mek gunz were and are good, I'll give them that). Now its 6 flashy new buggies which are (likely) obscenely overcosted. I mean, it doesn't surprise me, but I thought that new models were supposed to be OP? (See Castellans for a recent example).
Nothing will change unless we write them...I'm holding off until I see the actual point values.
Honestly, evil sunz sound like a big winner, overall. Faster, more reliable charges, and the warlord trait is rumored to be fall back & charge, which is good too.
The funny thing is that our fast vehicles will likely still be terribad, so you'll see a lot of evil sunz green tides, which isn't terribly fluffy.
Galas wrote: The problem with generalists is that in 40k you have only a couple of turns to do things and most of the time you can't be doing multiple things at the same time. Why I want a mediocre shooting and mediocre meele unit that will have a mediocre round of shooting one turn and a mediocre round of meele another turn when I can have an excelent shooting unit that will have two excelent shooting rounds or two excelent meele rounds.
And on top of that, GW always overprice generalist as if that was a strenght when in 40k it is a weakness. I love my generalists, don't think I don't, but I haven't had really a game where they worked as they should. They are nearly always a let down.
False dichotomy.
Where are the Warptalons, Mutilators, Centurions, Ratlings, all of Deathwatch, etc?
lolman1c wrote: The who "It will be fixed in CA" is a terrible argument though. So you're telling me that in order to get the true rules to the Orks I not only had to wait over a year but now have to wait a few more months and buy another book? Couldn't they have just got it right the first time and saved me £25?
No one is saying that. As noted above - the best things people are comparing to can easily be nerfed. Whether or not GW will do so is up in the air.
If GW repoints Orks in CA then they have a playtesting process that needs way more room to breathe.
So, are you thinking that a Harlequin Voidweaver is an unreasonably OP vehicle that's definitely going to be nerfed in CA?
Because I'm not seeing it in any competitive lists, and nobody seems to be talking about it...
but it uses a pretty similar "pick a profile" weapon in the prism cannon to the squigbuggy, yet it does more damage using any profile+its shuriken cannons than the squigbuggy against any kind of target, it's several times more durable, faster, similar in close combat, and the squigbuggy is shaping up to be 140-150pts while the voidweaver is 105.
This is not a comparison to an unreasonably broken unit. It is a comparison to a unit considered subpar to middle of the road by almost everyone.And it is A) better in almost every way, and B ), 2/3 of the cost.
deffrekka wrote: That was the worst clan focus ever...... Top unit is a Mek Shop.... what?! Are you sure GW.... Right ok whatever, i would of mentioned some strats for Speed Freak keyword aligned units, not re-using the billowing exhausts we got from the buggy preview. And we have already seen the rules for the speedwaaagh! Maybe show some more of the Deffkilla wartrikes datasheet instead....
Such a bad focus honestly. I was hyped for today's article and it basically revealed nothing new and exciting for my favourite clan. They might as well skip today's faction focus as that was how helpful and insightful it was!!!
Really annoyed me. Kills my hype....
Ill just wait for a proper YouTube review on saturday, atleast that wont disappoint me with new information, instead of recycled news.
Evil Sunz... arguably the biggest speed freaks clan there is! And they basically give us the worst preview yet... GW... really? Like even if we didn't know this stuff it was still kinda a waste. Maybe they could have showed us bikers or the wagon? You know... real Evil Sunz units!
Yeah, you can tell they are trying really hard to sell that terrain.
What's funny is that they don't even use an Evil Sunz mek shop; those are Bad Moons units.
deffrekka wrote: That was the worst clan focus ever...... Top unit is a Mek Shop.... what?! Are you sure GW.... Right ok whatever, i would of mentioned some strats for Speed Freak keyword aligned units, not re-using the billowing exhausts we got from the buggy preview. And we have already seen the rules for the speedwaaagh! Maybe show some more of the Deffkilla wartrikes datasheet instead....
Such a bad focus honestly. I was hyped for today's article and it basically revealed nothing new and exciting for my favourite clan. They might as well skip today's faction focus as that was how helpful and insightful it was!!!
Really annoyed me. Kills my hype....
Ill just wait for a proper YouTube review on saturday, atleast that wont disappoint me with new information, instead of recycled news.
Evil Sunz... arguably the biggest speed freaks clan there is! And they basically give us the worst preview yet... GW... really? Like even if we didn't know this stuff it was still kinda a waste. Maybe they could have showed us bikers or the wagon? You know... real Evil Sunz units!
I find this funny though, So far every preview has just been a rehash of info we had two weeks ago. Again people are blaming GW for the previews because some other git spoiled the info a week ago. At this point who cares anyway, in 2 days there will be full codex reviews anyway.
Bah, they just confirmed that the mek shop doesn't allow units to shoot for a turn. gakky terrain is gakky. Just get it for decoration, don't bother wasting points or using the rules.
I think the snakebits review and the goff ones have been the best ones so far. The bad moons one atleast showed the new weapon profile for the KMZ for Morky.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Bah, they just confirmed that the mek shop doesn't allow units to shoot for a turn. gakky terrain is gakky.
Just get it for decoration, don't bother wasting points or using the rules.
Damn, that's actually a good idea
.Well, blood axe nob bikers with Kombi skorchas could be fun too.
I'm imagining a 3+ save, falling back from Kombat and roasting everything.
the_scotsman wrote: The stratagem (1/3 of the preview) was spoiled...by Games Workshop, a week ago.
And the Speedwaaagh! ability on the same article about the buggies that previewed that strat!
The only things "new" were the mek shop more dakka rule and the clan trait. But we already knew those from the leaks. Of course there are people who dont follow forums or hear/see these leaks so its entirely new to them, but it still doesnt excuse the fact they used 2 recycled preview items from a previous news article.
Imagine watching thursdays news and they tell you what happened last week on a tuesday...
the_scotsman wrote: The stratagem (1/3 of the preview) was spoiled...by Games Workshop, a week ago.
And the Speedwaaagh! ability on the same article about the buggies that previewed that strat!
The only things "new" were the mek shop more dakka rule and the clan trait. But we already knew those from the leaks. Of course there are people who dont follow forums or hear/see these leaks so its entirely new to them, but it still doesnt excuse the fact they used 2 recycled preview items from a previous news article.
Imagine watching thursdays news and they tell you what happened last week on a tuesday...
Only the trait wasn't fully known since apparently they gain +1 to move advance and charge. 7 fething kits and scatter terrain, awesome rules and somehow still unhappy people prior to seeing any concrete points. Unreal.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Bah, they just confirmed that the mek shop doesn't allow units to shoot for a turn. gakky terrain is gakky.
Just get it for decoration, don't bother wasting points or using the rules.
Damn, that's actually a good idea
.Well, blood axe nob bikers with Kombi skorchas could be fun too.
I'm imagining a 3+ save, falling back from Kombat and roasting everything.
Or Burna blobs.
Get charged, burnicate them. Next turn fall back, burnicate them and charge them. Flamers are going to be brutal with Blood Axes.
Evil sunz kans - 7" movement, 4.5" avg advance. Then shoot a rokkit at BS4 per model. Then if you have a trike touching 6 of the kan mob, assault.
+1 attack per model in the supermob. Add a waaagh banner for lulz.
Grots for min troops.
Even just spamming this option, I fail to see how this wouldn't be more effective than any variety of Ork boy, just from sheer armor saves, wound count, multi damage shooting and multi damage close combat attacks.
The points cost of a 30 man mob translated into kans.
Why not? Wouldn't that mulch any kind of a big nasty in a heartbeat?
Red Corsair wrote: Only the trait wasn't fully known since apparently they gain +1 to move advance and charge. 7 fething kits and scatter terrain, awesome rules and somehow still unhappy people prior to seeing any concrete points. Unreal.
Just a tip...
they are unhappy that they have to pay the points cost of a knight to get two buggies.
TedNugent wrote: How could boys possibly compare to kans at 7 ppm.
Evil sunz kans - 7" movement, 4.5" avg advance. Then shoot a rokkit at BS4 per model. Then if you have a trike touching 6 of the kan mob, assault.
+1 attack per model in the supermob. Add a waaagh banner for lulz.
Grots for min troops.
Even just spamming this option, I fail to see how this wouldn't be more effective than any variety of Ork boy, just from sheer armor saves, wound count, multi damage shooting and multi damage close combat attacks.
The points cost of a 30 man mob translated into kans.
Why not? Wouldn't that mulch any kind of a big nasty in a heartbeat?
I mean, that's kind of like asking "how could guardsmen possibly compare to dreadnoughts?" They're...completely different units, that do different things? I guess that's how they compare?
6 kanz put out what, 24 S7 AP-2 Dd3 attacks at WS4+ with the banner? Have I got that right? Great for big stuff, but 30 boyz put out 120 S4 AP- attacks.
That seems like very different kinds of attack profile to me.
Red Corsair wrote: Only the trait wasn't fully known since apparently they gain +1 to move advance and charge. 7 fething kits and scatter terrain, awesome rules and somehow still unhappy people prior to seeing any concrete points. Unreal.
Just a tip...
they are unhappy that they have to pay the points cost of a knight to get two buggies.
Do you think two buggies equal a knight?
Save it, we're on the "Well you don't KNOW the rules and points values, how can you possibly KNOW how good the thing is until you've read every word in the codex and chapter approved???" stage of the blind GW apologism.
I'm sure once we see book previews we'll fully shift to the "but you get so many awesome KITS how could you be unhappy??" of the 6th edition CSM release.
Red Corsair wrote: Only the trait wasn't fully known since apparently they gain +1 to move advance and charge. 7 fething kits and scatter terrain, awesome rules and somehow still unhappy people prior to seeing any concrete points. Unreal.
Just a tip...
they are unhappy that they have to pay the points cost of a knight to get two buggies.
Do you think two buggies equal a knight?
To be fair, the cheapest knight is 354 points. I don't think any of the buggies are going to cost 177 points. (Dear god, let's hope not). But those are still rumours. This preview was however objectively lazy compared to the other ones
So, are you thinking that a Harlequin Voidweaver is an unreasonably OP vehicle that's definitely going to be nerfed in CA?
Because I'm not seeing it in any competitive lists, and nobody seems to be talking about it...
but it uses a pretty similar "pick a profile" weapon in the prism cannon to the squigbuggy, yet it does more damage using any profile+its shuriken cannons than the squigbuggy against any kind of target, it's several times more durable, faster, similar in close combat, and the squigbuggy is shaping up to be 140-150pts while the voidweaver is 105.
This is not a comparison to an unreasonably broken unit. It is a comparison to a unit considered subpar to middle of the road by almost everyone.And it is A) better in almost every way, and B ), 2/3 of the cost.
Whack a mole. Knock one thing down and another is revealed to still be a problem. Just like LRBTs silently waiting to spring to the front when Knights and Bananas aren't super viable (and now that screens are super effective).
To take a Voidweaver you'd need a reason to take Harlies, which few will do, because DE has so many other excellent units and stratagems to boot.
Additionally, it has nowhere near the AP and damage of the Ravager against all targets.
T5 W6 on a VW 4++ -1 to hit for 108. T6 W10 5++ on a Ravager for 125.
D3 S6 AP3 D3 and 6 S6 AP0 Shurikens all at 24" or 9 S5 AP3 D2 at 36"?
One of these profiles benefits from Doom way more than the other.
Red Corsair wrote: Only the trait wasn't fully known since apparently they gain +1 to move advance and charge. 7 fething kits and scatter terrain, awesome rules and somehow still unhappy people prior to seeing any concrete points. Unreal.
Just a tip...
they are unhappy that they have to pay the points cost of a knight to get two buggies.
Do you think two buggies equal a knight?
To be fair, the cheapest knight is 354 points. I don't think any of the buggies are going to cost 177 points. (Dear god, let's hope not). But those are still rumours. This preview was however objectively lazy compared to the other ones
Sorry, I thought they were cheaper. But still...
Two and a half buggies are not worth a knight.
How much are armigers? How do their stats and guns stack up to a 140 point buggy?
Red Corsair wrote: Only the trait wasn't fully known since apparently they gain +1 to move advance and charge. 7 fething kits and scatter terrain, awesome rules and somehow still unhappy people prior to seeing any concrete points. Unreal.
Just a tip...
they are unhappy that they have to pay the points cost of a knight to get two buggies.
Do you think two buggies equal a knight?
To be fair, the cheapest knight is 354 points. I don't think any of the buggies are going to cost 177 points. (Dear god, let's hope not). But those are still rumours. This preview was however objectively lazy compared to the other ones
A fair point, 2 buggies probably aren't going to equal a knight.
But food for thought - all 6 buggies together are going to cost about the price of a castellan. Probably more. Considerably more, actually. Now that's an unfortunate comparison.
the_scotsman wrote: The stratagem (1/3 of the preview) was spoiled...by Games Workshop, a week ago.
And the Speedwaaagh! ability on the same article about the buggies that previewed that strat!
The only things "new" were the mek shop more dakka rule and the clan trait. But we already knew those from the leaks. Of course there are people who dont follow forums or hear/see these leaks so its entirely new to them, but it still doesnt excuse the fact they used 2 recycled preview items from a previous news article.
Imagine watching thursdays news and they tell you what happened last week on a tuesday...
Only the trait wasn't fully known since apparently they gain +1 to move advance and charge. 7 fething kits and scatter terrain, awesome rules and somehow still unhappy people prior to seeing any concrete points. Unreal.
Believe me I really, really don't want to start anything with anyone, so I'm just going to drop my comment and let it be what it is. But, yeah, the amount of whining coming from a segment of the Ork community is starting to get my goat. A lot of the comments are coming across like the rantings of a 9 year old who didn't get the exact toy he wanted for christmas. Spoiled and annoying. A lot of my personal, IRL ork friends are super happy with what they've seen so far.
Anyways, I noticed that Boyz, Lootas, and Nobz are "sold out" on the GW store, could there be more unrevealed kits?
Jidmah wrote: If you have ever read any codex review from FLG, you know how to read Reece's comments on units. The worst evaluation a unit can get is "great in the right situation" - so unless he calls something highly competitive, do not assume too much.
There also is the issue of orks working vastly different than most other armies, so many bloggers make assumptions based on how a unit would perform in an army they actually do play.
Always check if the person giving their opinion on a unit actually plays orks regularly.
Did people already forget how he told GK players they weren't playing their army right? I think that would've been harder to live down.
Red Corsair wrote: Only the trait wasn't fully known since apparently they gain +1 to move advance and charge. 7 fething kits and scatter terrain, awesome rules and somehow still unhappy people prior to seeing any concrete points. Unreal.
Just a tip...
they are unhappy that they have to pay the points cost of a knight to get two buggies.
Do you think two buggies equal a knight?
Just a tip back, maybe stop using a unanimously agreed upon broken unit as your measure.
Here's one more, wait for the actual points instead of some poorly translated implied hearsay.
Red Corsair wrote: Only the trait wasn't fully known since apparently they gain +1 to move advance and charge. 7 fething kits and scatter terrain, awesome rules and somehow still unhappy people prior to seeing any concrete points. Unreal.
Just a tip...
they are unhappy that they have to pay the points cost of a knight to get two buggies.
Do you think two buggies equal a knight?
To be fair, the cheapest knight is 354 points. I don't think any of the buggies are going to cost 177 points. (Dear god, let's hope not). But those are still rumours. This preview was however objectively lazy compared to the other ones
Sorry, I thought they were cheaper. But still...
Two and a half buggies are not worth a knight.
How much are armigers? How do their stats and guns stack up to a 140 point buggy?
In the setup you'd usually see them a warglaive is 177 points and a helverin is 174 points. They are worth their points, buggies over 100 wouldn't be. That's my super quick summary of the whole issue
It's a nice weapon, but they're only WS5. Even with a +1 to hit 6 of them on 4 attacks is 8 MEQ, 10 GEQ, or 20 wounds on T7 3+ tank.
30 Boyz with +1 to hit with 20 in base is 11MEQ, 30 GEQ, or 7 on a tank.
Kans are more durable and absolutely have a place, but Boyz do, too. If a kan or two gets scraped by an Armiger you're testing on LD6 with no help at all.
Red Corsair wrote: Only the trait wasn't fully known since apparently they gain +1 to move advance and charge. 7 fething kits and scatter terrain, awesome rules and somehow still unhappy people prior to seeing any concrete points. Unreal.
Just a tip...
they are unhappy that they have to pay the points cost of a knight to get two buggies.
Do you think two buggies equal a knight?
Just a tip back, maybe stop using a unanimously agreed upon broken unit as your measure.
Here's one more, wait for the actual points instead of some poorly translated implied hearsay.
Wut? I've seen like 10 vehicles names on different forums as all being cheaper and better. Are you basically saying that the Ork codex is fine but every other codex is broken? Because that doesn't fix the fact that they'll be a drag on your army even in casual games.
The fact is that a lot of people on here are positive but you and a few other people seem to be focusing on a few people who are being critical (and their arguments do make sense). Seriously, read through every single post and the majority of comments will be positive or at least neutral. I would hate an echo chamber so i feel the more opinions here the better. In addition,they're also, for a lot of the posts, posting data to back up their opinions which I greatly appreciate and helps give evidence to allow more people to debate against them and creating an atmosphere where the best possible answers come out and help shape the game to be better overall (with hopes that maybe the devs or other game devs read these forums).
I'd like to defend the point costs of the buggies by saying comparing them to things like Ravagers or knights is unfair due to how good those things are, but when you compare them to literally any other platform they still come off looking bad. Compare razborbacks to the buggies and tell me that is balanced. Now compare razrobacks with all the buffs they can get to buggies with all the buffs they can get and tell me that is balanced.
At this point I think it's fair to say the buggies are going to be trash with how reliable the rumors are about them. I think there is a good chance they will get the Armiger treatment and come out with terrible points, but receive very solid point drops in CA. I won't be buying any until then however.
If the -3 power level drops result in a 60 point price drop for the Naughts however I can see them being a very solid option. The bad moon variants will put out some respectable firepower alongside KMKs. Boyz being 7ppm is a really, really bad hit to the orks, but I am going to take it in faith that all cheap chaff is going up in points.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I'd like to defend the point costs of the buggies by saying comparing them to things like Ravagers or knights is unfair due to how good those things are, but when you compare them to literally any other platform they still come off looking bad. Compare razborbacks to the buggies and tell me that is balanced. Now compare razrobacks with all the buffs they can get to buggies with all the buffs they can get and tell me that is balanced.
At this point I think it's fair to say the buggies are going to be trash with how reliable the rumors are about them. I think there is a good chance they will get the Armiger treatment and come out with terrible points, but receive very solid point drops in CA. I won't be buying any until then however.
If the -3 power level drops result in a 60 point price drop for the Naughts however I can see them being a very solid option. The bad moon variants will put out some respectable firepower alongside KMKs. Boyz being 7ppm is a really, really bad hit to the orks, but I am going to take it in faith that all cheap chaff is going up in points.
I'm still not convinced they're 140 points. That would be just insane even for GW. I think the guy is wrong.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I'd like to defend the point costs of the buggies by saying comparing them to things like Ravagers or knights is unfair due to how good those things are, but when you compare them to literally any other platform they still come off looking bad. Compare razborbacks to the buggies and tell me that is balanced. Now compare razrobacks with all the buffs they can get to buggies with all the buffs they can get and tell me that is balanced.
At this point I think it's fair to say the buggies are going to be trash with how reliable the rumors are about them. I think there is a good chance they will get the Armiger treatment and come out with terrible points, but receive very solid point drops in CA. I won't be buying any until then however.
If the -3 power level drops result in a 60 point price drop for the Naughts however I can see them being a very solid option. The bad moon variants will put out some respectable firepower alongside KMKs. Boyz being 7ppm is a really, really bad hit to the orks, but I am going to take it in faith that all cheap chaff is going up in points.
I'm still not convinced they're 140 points. That would be just insane even for GW. I think the guy is wrong.
Yeah same, people claim that PL to points conversion rate is always a bit wonky but a lot of that is many options skewing it or point drops not reflected in PL drops. These are all new models with what I guess are very few individual options. I truly think we can translate 5PL to 90-110 points, 6PL to 110-130. If I had to guess either the French guy mixed up the names of the buggies (with the squigbuggy) or someone asked him in a way that could be misinterpreted. At least that's what I'm holding out hope for. The KBB for 90 points wouldn't be crazy good (or maybe even good) but palatable.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I'd like to defend the point costs of the buggies by saying comparing them to things like Ravagers or knights is unfair due to how good those things are, but when you compare them to literally any other platform they still come off looking bad. Compare razborbacks to the buggies and tell me that is balanced. Now compare razrobacks with all the buffs they can get to buggies with all the buffs they can get and tell me that is balanced.
At this point I think it's fair to say the buggies are going to be trash with how reliable the rumors are about them. I think there is a good chance they will get the Armiger treatment and come out with terrible points, but receive very solid point drops in CA. I won't be buying any until then however.
If the -3 power level drops result in a 60 point price drop for the Naughts however I can see them being a very solid option. The bad moon variants will put out some respectable firepower alongside KMKs. Boyz being 7ppm is a really, really bad hit to the orks, but I am going to take it in faith that all cheap chaff is going up in points.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I'd like to defend the point costs of the buggies by saying comparing them to things like Ravagers or knights is unfair due to how good those things are, but when you compare them to literally any other platform they still come off looking bad. Compare razborbacks to the buggies and tell me that is balanced. Now compare razrobacks with all the buffs they can get to buggies with all the buffs they can get and tell me that is balanced.
At this point I think it's fair to say the buggies are going to be trash with how reliable the rumors are about them. I think there is a good chance they will get the Armiger treatment and come out with terrible points, but receive very solid point drops in CA. I won't be buying any until then however.
If the -3 power level drops result in a 60 point price drop for the Naughts however I can see them being a very solid option. The bad moon variants will put out some respectable firepower alongside KMKs. Boyz being 7ppm is a really, really bad hit to the orks, but I am going to take it in faith that all cheap chaff is going up in points.
I'm still not convinced they're 140 points. That would be just insane even for GW. I think the guy is wrong.
Insane point values are entirely a reasonable thing to expect from GW. You need only to look at the Stompa to know it is very, very possible for them to make massive mistakes and then not fix them for a very long time and even then they may still not be fixed.
the_scotsman wrote: The stratagem (1/3 of the preview) was spoiled...by Games Workshop, a week ago.
And the Speedwaaagh! ability on the same article about the buggies that previewed that strat!
The only things "new" were the mek shop more dakka rule and the clan trait. But we already knew those from the leaks. Of course there are people who dont follow forums or hear/see these leaks so its entirely new to them, but it still doesnt excuse the fact they used 2 recycled preview items from a previous news article.
Imagine watching thursdays news and they tell you what happened last week on a tuesday...
Only the trait wasn't fully known since apparently they gain +1 to move advance and charge. 7 fething kits and scatter terrain, awesome rules and somehow still unhappy people prior to seeing any concrete points. Unreal.
Believe me I really, really don't want to start anything with anyone, so I'm just going to drop my comment and let it be what it is. But, yeah, the amount of whining coming from a segment of the Ork community is starting to get my goat. A lot of the comments are coming across like the rantings of a 9 year old who didn't get the exact toy he wanted for christmas. Spoiled and annoying. A lot of my personal, IRL ork friends are super happy with what they've seen so far.
Anyways, I noticed that Boyz, Lootas, and Nobz are "sold out" on the GW store, could there be more unrevealed kits?
I, for one, am absolutely thrilled at PL3 trukks, among other things. What makes me whine is that GW had a great opportunity to knock the ball out of the park with the buggies, and they fall on their ass and overpoint them.
They spent upwards of a million dollars sculpting these things, creating molds, and promoting the bejesus out of them. And they will probably break even, selling a few to sit on everyone's shelf. If I owned a gaming company, I would rather have people play with the models, not sit and gather dust. I guess I am upset that GW does not share my values.
I was also looking to support my FLGS with a big order, and I still might get some grots (about the only thing I don't have enough of) but that's it. Obviously, if we are all wrong about this, I'll put in for a bunch of them, but if not, i'll just use the models I have.
Or I will go to ebay and get FOUR old buggies instead of the one new one.
Has there ever been a case when the upgraded model in a line went up in points cost by a factor of FOUR?
This is it. We want gw to succeed. We're like parents at a football game cheering our kid on and shouting advice in over excitement. However, we just happen to be the parents of a extremely athletic and muscular kid who just runs and cries in the corner when someone passes them the ball.
I think I remember seeing some about only being s5, a melta type weapon, +2 -2 2 damage klaw, T6 8 or 9 wounds. That is off of my rough memory however, but it was around that ballpark.
the_scotsman wrote: The stratagem (1/3 of the preview) was spoiled...by Games Workshop, a week ago.
And the Speedwaaagh! ability on the same article about the buggies that previewed that strat!
The only things "new" were the mek shop more dakka rule and the clan trait. But we already knew those from the leaks. Of course there are people who dont follow forums or hear/see these leaks so its entirely new to them, but it still doesnt excuse the fact they used 2 recycled preview items from a previous news article.
Imagine watching thursdays news and they tell you what happened last week on a tuesday...
Only the trait wasn't fully known since apparently they gain +1 to move advance and charge. 7 fething kits and scatter terrain, awesome rules and somehow still unhappy people prior to seeing any concrete points. Unreal.
Believe me I really, really don't want to start anything with anyone, so I'm just going to drop my comment and let it be what it is. But, yeah, the amount of whining coming from a segment of the Ork community is starting to get my goat. A lot of the comments are coming across like the rantings of a 9 year old who didn't get the exact toy he wanted for christmas. Spoiled and annoying. A lot of my personal, IRL ork friends are super happy with what they've seen so far.
Anyways, I noticed that Boyz, Lootas, and Nobz are "sold out" on the GW store, could there be more unrevealed kits?
I, for one, am absolutely thrilled at PL3 trukks, among other things. What makes me whine is that GW had a great opportunity to knock the ball out of the park with the buggies, and they fall on their ass and overpoint them.
They spent upwards of a million dollars sculpting these things, creating molds, and promoting the bejesus out of them. And they will probably break even, selling a few to sit on everyone's shelf. If I owned a gaming company, I would rather have people play with the models, not sit and gather dust. I guess I am upset that GW does not share my values.
I was also looking to support my FLGS with a big order, and I still might get some grots (about the only thing I don't have enough of) but that's it. Obviously, if we are all wrong about this, I'll put in for a bunch of them, but if not, i'll just use the models I have.
Or I will go to ebay and get FOUR old buggies instead of the one new one.
Has there ever been a case when the upgraded model in a line went up in points cost by a factor of FOUR?
Again, WHAT POINTS??? We've not seen any points yet. Just speculation based on PL nonsense.
I've never played or own Orks before, But I'm planning on ordering all 6 buggies and the new boss in December after I see the codex, see the full rules, all strats and points, etc. It just seems useless to speculate on something we haven't gotten confirmation about.
Also, I find it highly suspect that GW would invest in new kits, and not make them really, really good. Look at the Castellan, it wouldn't have sold if it didn't have super good rules.
GW has a track record of releasing new kits with bad rules thus hurting their sales. See: Most of the Primaris line - Ork Gork/Morkanauts, flashgitz, Armigers (initial release points). They are sometimes so incompetent at balancing their points that I genuinely believe they could not convincingly point their new models with the intent to over buff them to sell.
I think I remember seeing some about only being s5, a melta type weapon, +2 -2 2 damage klaw, T6 8 or 9 wounds. That is off of my rough memory however, but it was around that ballpark.
The melta was double shot 8" range and could be used as a skorcha.
the klaw was D3 damage per kirioth, and reroll wound. He posted the video with the stats on KiriothTV.
Other than that I think you're close. 5 attacks. Then 3 questionable shotguns with 12" range and S5 with 2 attacks.
Kan klaws are S8? this pleases me. I love running a squad of 6 of them, they routinely catch people off guard with how deadly they are in melee.
Yeah, WS5+, uh....they have a LOT of attacks though and they all hurt really, really bad lol.
Again, WHAT POINTS??? We've not seen any points yet. Just speculation based on PL nonsense.
I've never played or own Orks before, But I'm planning on ordering all 6 buggies and the new boss in December after I see the codex, see the full rules, all strats and points, etc. It just seems useless to speculate on something we haven't gotten confirmation about.
Also, I find it highly suspect that GW would invest in new kits, and not make them really, really good. Look at the Castellan, it wouldn't have sold if it didn't have super good rules.
I think the most confusing part is the rumored points not lining up with the known PL. Either GW goofed the values or the rumor is wrong. If it wasn't Kirioth that leaked points then both are probably equally possible at the moment.
The leaks we got were:
Rumoured at 120 points
M14 ws2 bs5 s5 t6 w8 attacks5 ld7 sv4
Killa jet: Select one profile before attacking with this weapon:
-Burna Rng 8 Assaultd6 s5 ap-1 damage 1 attacks auto hit.
-Cutta. Rng8 assault2 s8 ap-4 d6 damage. If target is within half range of this weapon, roll 2 dice when determining damage and discard the lowest result.
Snagga Klaw (shooting). Rng8 assault1 s4 ap0 damage1 reroll to wound rolls with this weapon
Twin Boomstick. Range12 assault2 s5 ap0 dmg1. If target is with half range of this weapon, add 1 to hit rolls
Snagga Klaw (melee) s+2 ap-2 dmgD3 reroll to wound rolls for this weapon.
Abilities: Ere we go, mob rule, dakka dakka dakka
Friendly <clan> ork bikes and vehicles that are within 6”s of this models at the start of the close charge phase may charge even if the advanced this turn.
Once per battle, when advancing, this model may add 6”s to their movement instead of rolling a die.
Explodes. When this model is reduced to 0wounds roll a d6. On a 6 each unit within 3”s suffers 1 mortal wound.
the_scotsman wrote: The stratagem (1/3 of the preview) was spoiled...by Games Workshop, a week ago.
And the Speedwaaagh! ability on the same article about the buggies that previewed that strat!
The only things "new" were the mek shop more dakka rule and the clan trait. But we already knew those from the leaks. Of course there are people who dont follow forums or hear/see these leaks so its entirely new to them, but it still doesnt excuse the fact they used 2 recycled preview items from a previous news article.
Imagine watching thursdays news and they tell you what happened last week on a tuesday...
Only the trait wasn't fully known since apparently they gain +1 to move advance and charge. 7 fething kits and scatter terrain, awesome rules and somehow still unhappy people prior to seeing any concrete points. Unreal.
Believe me I really, really don't want to start anything with anyone, so I'm just going to drop my comment and let it be what it is. But, yeah, the amount of whining coming from a segment of the Ork community is starting to get my goat. A lot of the comments are coming across like the rantings of a 9 year old who didn't get the exact toy he wanted for christmas. Spoiled and annoying. A lot of my personal, IRL ork friends are super happy with what they've seen so far.
Anyways, I noticed that Boyz, Lootas, and Nobz are "sold out" on the GW store, could there be more unrevealed kits?
I, for one, am absolutely thrilled at PL3 trukks, among other things. What makes me whine is that GW had a great opportunity to knock the ball out of the park with the buggies, and they fall on their ass and overpoint them.
They spent upwards of a million dollars sculpting these things, creating molds, and promoting the bejesus out of them. And they will probably break even, selling a few to sit on everyone's shelf. If I owned a gaming company, I would rather have people play with the models, not sit and gather dust. I guess I am upset that GW does not share my values.
I was also looking to support my FLGS with a big order, and I still might get some grots (about the only thing I don't have enough of) but that's it. Obviously, if we are all wrong about this, I'll put in for a bunch of them, but if not, i'll just use the models I have.
Or I will go to ebay and get FOUR old buggies instead of the one new one.
Has there ever been a case when the upgraded model in a line went up in points cost by a factor of FOUR?
Again, WHAT POINTS??? We've not seen any points yet. Just speculation based on PL nonsense.
I've never played or own Orks before, But I'm planning on ordering all 6 buggies and the new boss in December after I see the codex, see the full rules, all strats and points, etc. It just seems useless to speculate on something we haven't gotten confirmation about.
Also, I find it highly suspect that GW would invest in new kits, and not make them really, really good. Look at the Castellan, it wouldn't have sold if it didn't have super good rules.
The same french youtubers who have correctly gotten a bunch of previous releases said that the Boosta-Blasta was 140 and the Dragsta was 110. Thats not speculation based on power level, because both of those are solidly higher than "Power level *20".
It would make sense for them to have those two points values if they have a pre-release copy of Speed Freeks, which includes the 40k rules for those two buggies, which we know people have.
the_scotsman wrote: The stratagem (1/3 of the preview) was spoiled...by Games Workshop, a week ago.
And the Speedwaaagh! ability on the same article about the buggies that previewed that strat!
The only things "new" were the mek shop more dakka rule and the clan trait. But we already knew those from the leaks. Of course there are people who dont follow forums or hear/see these leaks so its entirely new to them, but it still doesnt excuse the fact they used 2 recycled preview items from a previous news article.
Imagine watching thursdays news and they tell you what happened last week on a tuesday...
Only the trait wasn't fully known since apparently they gain +1 to move advance and charge. 7 fething kits and scatter terrain, awesome rules and somehow still unhappy people prior to seeing any concrete points. Unreal.
Believe me I really, really don't want to start anything with anyone, so I'm just going to drop my comment and let it be what it is. But, yeah, the amount of whining coming from a segment of the Ork community is starting to get my goat. A lot of the comments are coming across like the rantings of a 9 year old who didn't get the exact toy he wanted for christmas. Spoiled and annoying. A lot of my personal, IRL ork friends are super happy with what they've seen so far.
Anyways, I noticed that Boyz, Lootas, and Nobz are "sold out" on the GW store, could there be more unrevealed kits?
I, for one, am absolutely thrilled at PL3 trukks, among other things. What makes me whine is that GW had a great opportunity to knock the ball out of the park with the buggies, and they fall on their ass and overpoint them.
They spent upwards of a million dollars sculpting these things, creating molds, and promoting the bejesus out of them. And they will probably break even, selling a few to sit on everyone's shelf. If I owned a gaming company, I would rather have people play with the models, not sit and gather dust. I guess I am upset that GW does not share my values.
I was also looking to support my FLGS with a big order, and I still might get some grots (about the only thing I don't have enough of) but that's it. Obviously, if we are all wrong about this, I'll put in for a bunch of them, but if not, i'll just use the models I have.
Or I will go to ebay and get FOUR old buggies instead of the one new one.
Has there ever been a case when the upgraded model in a line went up in points cost by a factor of FOUR?
Again, WHAT POINTS??? We've not seen any points yet. Just speculation based on PL nonsense.
I've never played or own Orks before, But I'm planning on ordering all 6 buggies and the new boss in December after I see the codex, see the full rules, all strats and points, etc. It just seems useless to speculate on something we haven't gotten confirmation about.
Also, I find it highly suspect that GW would invest in new kits, and not make them really, really good. Look at the Castellan, it wouldn't have sold if it didn't have super good rules.
here's the thing. a good portion of the player base follows your ideology. I like the models im gonna buy them anyway. The problem with that is when this happens, the sales figures won't reflect the rules and the actual players who want useable units get shafted. Good for you for not buying something on it's level of OP but from a sales standpoint GW can't realize they messed up when players are buying the kits anyway. It's the problem with the split in the Ork player base. If a knight had utter garbage rules, I could almost guarantee their sales would feel it.
the_scotsman wrote: The same french youtubers who have correctly gotten a bunch of previous releases said that the Boosta-Blasta was 140 and the Dragsta was 110. Thats not speculation based on power level, because both of those are solidly higher than "Power level *20".
It would make sense for them to have those two points values if they have a pre-release copy of Speed Freeks, which includes the 40k rules for those two buggies, which we know people have.
The shokkjump dragsta is 6PL so 110 points is right in line with the lower end of that. It's just the KBB that's way off if true.
the_scotsman wrote: The same french youtubers who have correctly gotten a bunch of previous releases said that the Boosta-Blasta was 140 and the Dragsta was 110. Thats not speculation based on power level, because both of those are solidly higher than "Power level *20".
It would make sense for them to have those two points values if they have a pre-release copy of Speed Freeks, which includes the 40k rules for those two buggies, which we know people have.
The shokkjump dragsta is 6PL so 110 points is right in line with the lower end of that. It's just the KBB that's way off if true.
Again, I kinda feel like even at 110 points this is a little too much. I'd have probably grumpily agreed with 90 points. However, what will hurt is boyz if they go up in points. Even someone like me who just brings only 40boyz (which trust me... never last 2 turns) will have to add 40pts to their army!
So, if rumours are true, we could be looking at my list going up overall in points! In an army that was already being outnumbered and out dakkad by every faction I faced.
Again though... rumours are rumours so i still latch onto the hope that everything will be okay. I won't mind boyz going up in points if every single other unit goes down enough that it means my list goes down overall.
the_scotsman wrote: The stratagem (1/3 of the preview) was spoiled...by Games Workshop, a week ago.
And the Speedwaaagh! ability on the same article about the buggies that previewed that strat!
The only things "new" were the mek shop more dakka rule and the clan trait. But we already knew those from the leaks. Of course there are people who dont follow forums or hear/see these leaks so its entirely new to them, but it still doesnt excuse the fact they used 2 recycled preview items from a previous news article.
Imagine watching thursdays news and they tell you what happened last week on a tuesday...
Only the trait wasn't fully known since apparently they gain +1 to move advance and charge. 7 fething kits and scatter terrain, awesome rules and somehow still unhappy people prior to seeing any concrete points. Unreal.
Believe me I really, really don't want to start anything with anyone, so I'm just going to drop my comment and let it be what it is. But, yeah, the amount of whining coming from a segment of the Ork community is starting to get my goat. A lot of the comments are coming across like the rantings of a 9 year old who didn't get the exact toy he wanted for christmas. Spoiled and annoying. A lot of my personal, IRL ork friends are super happy with what they've seen so far.
Anyways, I noticed that Boyz, Lootas, and Nobz are "sold out" on the GW store, could there be more unrevealed kits?
I, for one, am absolutely thrilled at PL3 trukks, among other things. What makes me whine is that GW had a great opportunity to knock the ball out of the park with the buggies, and they fall on their ass and overpoint them.
They spent upwards of a million dollars sculpting these things, creating molds, and promoting the bejesus out of them. And they will probably break even, selling a few to sit on everyone's shelf. If I owned a gaming company, I would rather have people play with the models, not sit and gather dust. I guess I am upset that GW does not share my values.
I was also looking to support my FLGS with a big order, and I still might get some grots (about the only thing I don't have enough of) but that's it. Obviously, if we are all wrong about this, I'll put in for a bunch of them, but if not, i'll just use the models I have.
Or I will go to ebay and get FOUR old buggies instead of the one new one.
Has there ever been a case when the upgraded model in a line went up in points cost by a factor of FOUR?
Again, WHAT POINTS??? We've not seen any points yet. Just speculation based on PL nonsense.
I've never played or own Orks before, But I'm planning on ordering all 6 buggies and the new boss in December after I see the codex, see the full rules, all strats and points, etc. It just seems useless to speculate on something we haven't gotten confirmation about.
Also, I find it highly suspect that GW would invest in new kits, and not make them really, really good. Look at the Castellan, it wouldn't have sold if it didn't have super good rules.
The same french youtubers who have correctly gotten a bunch of previous releases said that the Boosta-Blasta was 140 and the Dragsta was 110. Thats not speculation based on power level, because both of those are solidly higher than "Power level *20".
It would make sense for them to have those two points values if they have a pre-release copy of Speed Freeks, which includes the 40k rules for those two buggies, which we know people have.
Yeah, and those points values are completely subject to change, just like the points costs for Dark Imperium units already changed in the Indexes (which came out at the same time?). Until we have a confirmed points value from the codex I'm going to take these point values with a spoonful of Having said that, pricing the exhaust flamers of the Boost-Blasta like 4 separate Burna's (56 points total?) would be... mildly ridiculous.
Well we will know in about 72 hours for sure... Here comes the Orkalypse... Either we'll fight our way to Ork heaven or end up in the awful ork hell for another 10 years... Where a squad of 30 boyz will lose against a squad of Necron Snipers in cc, the Stompa is a waste of plastic and you forget what anything does because of all the redundant rules.... *shivers as I remember 7th edition*.
The Klan Rules are intriguing. Too soon to be asking which one is most powerful?
Goffs don't impress me. Getting an extra attack on 6s seems like overkill, large mobs are already going to have the attacks to do what they need to.
Snakebites don't seem much better. The FNP roll saves 16% of wounds on models that are going to take a lot of wounds at a time, since they don't have much armor to speak of.
Evil Suns, OTOH, increase their movement. Seems like something every Ork army will benefit from. You don't need more attacks in cc, since you already have plenty. You need to get into combat faster, which means you have less shooting to worry about on the way there.
Bad Moons get to reroll 1s to shoot. It would have been better if it was +1 when shooting, but it matters most for units with lots of shots.
All this really means to me is your shooty detachment comes from Bad Moons and your choppy detachment comes from Evil Suns.
Hard to see how Blood Axes and Deathskulls will do much better.
techsoldaten wrote: The Klan Rules are intriguing. Too soon to be asking which one is most powerful?
Goffs don't impress me. Getting an extra attack on 6s seems like overkill, large mobs are already going to have the attacks to do what they need to.
Snakebites don't seem much better. The FNP roll saves 16% of wounds on models that are going to take a lot of wounds at a time, since they don't have much armor to speak of.
Evil Suns, OTOH, increase their movement. Seems like something every Ork army will benefit from. You don't need more attacks in cc, since you already have plenty. You need to get into combat faster, which means you have less shooting to worry about on the way there.
Bad Moons get to reroll 1s to shoot. It would have been better if it was +1 when shooting, but it matters most for units with lots of shots.
All this really means to me is your shooty detachment comes from Bad Moons and your choppy detachment comes from Evil Suns.
Hard to see how Blood Axes and Deathskulls will do much better.
We know Blood Axes will get +1 to their saves and Death will get a 6+ Invulvn... all very useful.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Bah, they just confirmed that the mek shop doesn't allow units to shoot for a turn. gakky terrain is gakky.
Just get it for decoration, don't bother wasting points or using the rules.
Damn, that's actually a good idea
.Well, blood axe nob bikers with Kombi skorchas could be fun too.
I'm imagining a 3+ save, falling back from Kombat and roasting everything.
Can you fall back and still shoot??
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techsoldaten wrote: The Klan Rules are intriguing. Too soon to be asking which one is most powerful?
Goffs don't impress me. Getting an extra attack on 6s seems like overkill, large mobs are already going to have the attacks to do what they need to.
Snakebites don't seem much better. The FNP roll saves 16% of wounds on models that are going to take a lot of wounds at a time, since they don't have much armor to speak of.
Evil Suns, OTOH, increase their movement. Seems like something every Ork army will benefit from. You don't need more attacks in cc, since you already have plenty. You need to get into combat faster, which means you have less shooting to worry about on the way there.
Bad Moons get to reroll 1s to shoot. It would have been better if it was +1 when shooting, but it matters most for units with lots of shots.
All this really means to me is your shooty detachment comes from Bad Moons and your choppy detachment comes from Evil Suns.
Hard to see how Blood Axes and Deathskulls will do much better.
In respect to goffs...when are more attacks a bad thing? Have you ever walked away from a combat and thought you could have used LESS boys/attacks??
Blood axes and evil sunz are to me the clear standouts.
+1 to saves is better than 16% flat much of the time.
It also is effectively +2 for kommandos. And it is the clear standout for transports.
Evil sunz is a very substantial standout for kans and dreads as well as being very tempting for infantry. I am actually seriously considering the giant mobility and midfield shooting gains for assault units as well.
It also makes meganobs and megabosses' awful speed significantly less annoying.
I can't decide which one I want, and it will come down to codex coming out plus a coin flip (or three). Maybe some batreps and strat videos too. If infantry wasn't so damn slow I would go bloodaxes. Blood axes rule out entirely meganobz. if boys are truly 7 points a model, that will make up the rest of my mind.
I really wish that we knew the points for meganobz. The point reduction hint in the goff article got me excited, and ebay is currently 10% off. Im itching to buy a couple boxes (especially since the models are cool too) but I think I should wait, especially since im gonna be dropping a ton of money next week as it is
You know on the bright side of boys going up to 7ppm that makes stormboyz ( if they stay at 8ppm) the auto pick. choice for all your horde needs. Of course my cheap self will just proxy my boyz because there is no way I am going out and buying 100+ stormboyz when they are $25 for 5.
Stormboy evil sunz would be grooving on up 13+D6+1 inches (17.5) putting you in a very likely charge range into their deployment zone on top of having re-rolls and +1 to the charge. 100+ boyz in your line turn one is going to get some damage done.
Blood Axe stormboyz however would only manage a standard 12+D6 (17.5) with no charge bonus, but would be more resilient against shooting.
As is I am thinking massive hordes of stormboyz with some DA JUMPed normal boyz will be pretty solid. If you get Turn 1 you are almost auto into combat and if you get turn 2 you can at least get the counts as in cover strat to give your hordes a little help and equal out the bonus the blood axes get. Throw in a back field of bad moonz KMKs, a few weirdboys and of course biker/trike bosses and you have a fairly solid army.
Deepstrike in meganobz, walkers and normal nobs for flavor as you see fit or drive them up the board in trukks.
Stormboyz are one of the only undercosted things in the ork codex (well besides zhardsnark in the FW index). If they stayed the same # of points, I'd be shocked.
So far in play testing locally, I've liked the deathskullz trait the most (as long as the 6++ works in CC).
Tier 1: Blood Axe, Evil Sunz. Good in most circumstances with most army builds.
Tier 2: Goff, Death Skull. Could be taken if the characters they're tied to are really good, particularly Ghazzy if he turns out to be beastly as the rumors suggest. But IMO you wouldn't take these otherwise, as you can't really structure your army around them without Goff being a worse offensive trait than Evil Sunz and without Death Skull being a worse defensive trait than Blood Axe.
Tier 3: Bad Moonz, Freebootaz, Snakebites. Youd want to specifically structure a detachment around being a detachment of this faction. A rando ork army that happens to be this klan would be weaker than a Tier 1 or a Tier 2 if the character was really beneficial (Guilliman-level gamechanging)
I don't think any trait is strictly bad never-take, like a Biel-tan or a Word Bearers, but I would definitely say there is a spread.
We'll have to look at some stratagems and the characters.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: You know on the bright side of boys going up to 7ppm that makes stormboyz ( if they stay at 8ppm) the auto pick. choice for all your horde needs. Of course my cheap self will just proxy my boyz because there is no way I am going out and buying 100+ stormboyz when they are $25 for 5.
Stormboy evil sunz would be grooving on up 15+D6+1 inches (19.5) putting you in a very likely charge range into their deployment zone on top of having re-rolls and +1 to the charge. 100+ boyz in your line turn one is going to get some damage done.
The only thing stopping me from buying 30 more is waiting to see what he codex has to say about them.
All these clans are good and all but so far the only one I am interested in is Goffs, which to me see the least auto pick. But are close to how I already play so I won't goof up my special rules as much.
Leaning heavily to evil suns just for my bikers. I basically stopped using them and I don't see them being "that good", I still expect they will all be dead in 2 turns, but the movement and shooting sounds good.
Just not really sure I want to shift my storm boys over to evil sunz.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: You know on the bright side of boys going up to 7ppm that makes stormboyz ( if they stay at 8ppm) the auto pick. choice for all your horde needs. Of course my cheap self will just proxy my boyz because there is no way I am going out and buying 100+ stormboyz when they are $25 for 5.
Stormboy evil sunz would be grooving on up 13+D6+1 inches (17.5) putting you in a very likely charge range into their deployment zone on top of having re-rolls and +1 to the charge. 100+ boyz in your line turn one is going to get some damage done.
Blood Axe stormboyz however would only manage a standard 12+D6 (17.5) with no charge bonus, but would be more resilient against shooting.
As is I am thinking massive hordes of stormboyz with some DA JUMPed normal boyz will be pretty solid. If you get Turn 1 you are almost auto into combat and if you get turn 2 you can at least get the counts as in cover strat to give your hordes a little help and equal out the bonus the blood axes get. Throw in a back field of bad moonz KMKs, a few weirdboys and of course biker/trike bosses and you have a fairly solid army.
Deepstrike in meganobz, walkers and normal nobs for flavor as you see fit or drive them up the board in trukks.
Aren't you forgeting the +1 to advance too? Its +1move +1advance +1charge (unless they are speed freaks with +2 to move but i doubt GW would be that crazy. xD)
Stream on the french wargame studio will be up in a couple of minutes now.
the_scotsman wrote:My hot take on klan rules seems to be
Tier 1: Blood Axe, Evil Sunz. Good in most circumstances with most army builds.
Tier 2: Goff, Death Skull. Could be taken if the characters they're tied to are really good, particularly Ghazzy if he turns out to be beastly as the rumors suggest. But IMO you wouldn't take these otherwise, as you can't really structure your army around them without Goff being a worse offensive trait than Evil Sunz and without Death Skull being a worse defensive trait than Blood Axe.
Tier 3: Bad Moonz, Freebootaz, Snakebites. Youd want to specifically structure a detachment around being a detachment of this faction. A rando ork army that happens to be this klan would be weaker than a Tier 1 or a Tier 2 if the character was really beneficial (Guilliman-level gamechanging)
I don't think any trait is strictly bad never-take, like a Biel-tan or a Word Bearers, but I would definitely say there is a spread.
We'll have to look at some stratagems and the characters.
I only disagree with putting Bad moonz in T3. They will have rock solid synergy with the KMKs (again assuming they don't get nerfed) and will have their niche as fire support in an ork army. If things stay as they are in regards to KMKs I will rank Bad Moonz at t1 in that role. They also get points for the Morkanaut if it turns out to get a beefy point cut of around 50-60 points.
warhead01 wrote:
Tibs Ironblood wrote: You know on the bright side of boys going up to 7ppm that makes stormboyz ( if they stay at 8ppm) the auto pick. choice for all your horde needs. Of course my cheap self will just proxy my boyz because there is no way I am going out and buying 100+ stormboyz when they are $25 for 5.
Stormboy evil sunz would be grooving on up 15+D6+1 inches (19.5) putting you in a very likely charge range into their deployment zone on top of having re-rolls and +1 to the charge. 100+ boyz in your line turn one is going to get some damage done.
The only thing stopping me from buying 30 more is waiting to see what he codex has to say about them.
All these clans are good and all but so far the only one I am interested in is Goffs, which to me see the least auto pick. But are close to how I already play so I won't goof up my special rules as much.
Leaning heavily to evil suns just for my bikers. I basically stopped using them and I don't see them being "that good", I still expect they will all be dead in 2 turns, but the movement and shooting sounds good.
Just not really sure I want to shift my storm boys over to evil sunz.
I honestly think Goffs will be solid due to characters and have the niche as the best pure CQC faction within the codex.
greggles wrote:Stormboyz are one of the only undercosted things in the ork codex (well besides zhardsnark in the FW index). If they stayed the same # of points, I'd be shocked.
So far in play testing locally, I've liked the deathskullz trait the most (as long as the 6++ works in CC).
Wouldn't that just be funny if two of the very few good ork units got nerfed massively when their codex came out. Oh I can already see the rage posts. Ork boyz went up in price before guard did
I really don't see the appeal of the 6++. Against shooting the blood axes will almost always be better for vehicles and boyz and in melee that thing shield will be outweighed by the offensive power Goffs put out. The one re-roll is not bad though I'll admit.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: You know on the bright side of boys going up to 7ppm that makes stormboyz ( if they stay at 8ppm) the auto pick. choice for all your horde needs. Of course my cheap self will just proxy my boyz because there is no way I am going out and buying 100+ stormboyz when they are $25 for 5.
Stormboy evil sunz would be grooving on up 13+D6+1 inches (17.5) putting you in a very likely charge range into their deployment zone on top of having re-rolls and +1 to the charge. 100+ boyz in your line turn one is going to get some damage done.
Blood Axe stormboyz however would only manage a standard 12+D6 (17.5) with no charge bonus, but would be more resilient against shooting.
As is I am thinking massive hordes of stormboyz with some DA JUMPed normal boyz will be pretty solid. If you get Turn 1 you are almost auto into combat and if you get turn 2 you can at least get the counts as in cover strat to give your hordes a little help and equal out the bonus the blood axes get. Throw in a back field of bad moonz KMKs, a few weirdboys and of course biker/trike bosses and you have a fairly solid army.
Deepstrike in meganobz, walkers and normal nobs for flavor as you see fit or drive them up the board in trukks.
Aren't you forgeting the +1 to advance too? Its +1move +1advance +1charge (unless they are speed freaks with +2 to move but i doubt GW would be that crazy. xD)
Stream on the french wargame studio will be up in a couple of minutes now.
No I included that. 12 base +1, advance D6+1 and charge +1. That is what gives the evil sunz the edge over stormboyz (deployment depending) in regards to getting stuck in. They are the gamble option where as blood axes are the more reliable and consistent option on top of being more mobile once in combat due to fall back shoot and charge.
The second half was
"reroll one to hit, to wound, or damage roll, per unit in the shooting and fighting phase"
I tend to play a mish mass of units (some boyz + lots of toys) and the re-rolls really cut back my CP usage, and suddenly having saves for things that I didn't before (like gork/mork in CC) was really nice when it went off. Of course if its vs shooting only, I'd give it a huge meh rating as well.
Billagio wrote: I really wish that we knew the points for meganobz. The point reduction hint in the goff article got me excited, and ebay is currently 10% off. Im itching to buy a couple boxes (especially since the models are cool too) but I think I should wait, especially since im gonna be dropping a ton of money next week as it is
Either way Evil Sunz MANZ are going to be a 72% charge and at 3W don't suffer quite the same problems of regular terminators. Teleporting them in could wind up being really fun.
Billagio wrote: I really wish that we knew the points for meganobz. The point reduction hint in the goff article got me excited, and ebay is currently 10% off. Im itching to buy a couple boxes (especially since the models are cool too) but I think I should wait, especially since im gonna be dropping a ton of money next week as it is
Either way Evil Sunz MANZ are going to be a 72% charge and at 3W don't suffer quite the same problems of regular terminators. Teleporting them in could wind up being really fun.
This is true!
Also in regards to stormboys. I do hope they arnt nerfed, but we also have to keep in mind that the trike boss doesnt give them free advance and charge, so you either have to take an index bike boss or accept the possible casualties
the_scotsman wrote:Yes, Bad Moonz have really good synergy with all ork dedicated shooting units.
So you would want to structure an army or detachment around being Bad Moonz.
A general ork army with a mix of everything would not massively benefit from being bad moonz, which is what I defined as tier 1.
None of my tiers are "bad" because I don't think any of the klanz are bad.
Ah ok from a whole army perspective yeah I can see your point. Detachment wise Tier 1, but army wise t3. I can agree with that.
greggles wrote:
I really don't see the appeal of the 6++
Well it was the 6++ + the two rerolls.
The second half was
"reroll one to hit, to wound, or damage roll, per unit in the shooting and fighting phase"
I tend to play a mish mass of units (some boyz + lots of toys) and the re-rolls really cut back my CP usage, and suddenly having saves for things that I didn't before (like gork/mork in CC) was really nice when it went off. Of course if its vs shooting only, I'd give it a huge meh rating as well.
I assume it HAS to be cqc and shooting otherwise why ever take it, but I mean this is GW so... The one re-roll is nice per unit I absolutely agree especially for PKs and big weapons. Personally I prefer the Salamanders version that does not have the invuln, but gives a re-roll for hitting and wounding. I think if you are going vehicle heavy lists you'll likely have KFFs for the 5++ and blood axes for counts as cover which are generally going to provide more overall value than re-rolls. I do see your point though. Free re-rolls are never bad!
Billagio wrote: I really wish that we knew the points for meganobz. The point reduction hint in the goff article got me excited, and ebay is currently 10% off. Im itching to buy a couple boxes (especially since the models are cool too) but I think I should wait, especially since im gonna be dropping a ton of money next week as it is
Either way Evil Sunz MANZ are going to be a 72% charge and at 3W don't suffer quite the same problems of regular terminators. Teleporting them in could wind up being really fun.
This is true!
Also in regards to stormboys. I do hope they arnt nerfed, but we also have to keep in mind that the trike boss doesnt give them free advance and charge, so you either have to take an index bike boss or accept the possible casualties
Yeah the Manz are going to be a big deal if the points are right. Thankfully the biker boss is a good value model even as is so I don't see needing them being too much of an issue. Zhadsnaark is already an auto include for evil sunz list so there is one flank of hordes covered and ready to go.
techsoldaten wrote: The Klan Rules are intriguing. Too soon to be asking which one is most powerful?
Goffs don't impress me. Getting an extra attack on 6s seems like overkill, large mobs are already going to have the attacks to do what they need to.
Snakebites don't seem much better. The FNP roll saves 16% of wounds on models that are going to take a lot of wounds at a time, since they don't have much armor to speak of.
Evil Suns, OTOH, increase their movement. Seems like something every Ork army will benefit from. You don't need more attacks in cc, since you already have plenty. You need to get into combat faster, which means you have less shooting to worry about on the way there.
Bad Moons get to reroll 1s to shoot. It would have been better if it was +1 when shooting, but it matters most for units with lots of shots.
All this really means to me is your shooty detachment comes from Bad Moons and your choppy detachment comes from Evil Suns.
Hard to see how Blood Axes and Deathskulls will do much better.
In respect to goffs...when are more attacks a bad thing? Have you ever walked away from a combat and thought you could have used LESS boys/attacks??
Extra attacks are not a bad thing. But a large Goff Boys mob already has the attacks to wipe out an opponent in assault. Why not take a Klan trait that addresses something you don't already have?
Berzerkers are the unit I've played where I regretted the extra attacks. Sure, they can delete most units in a single round of attacks. But then they have to deal with a turn of shooting... it would usually be better to stay locked into combat for another turn.
I dont like to use traits, relics or abilities to mitigate my army's weaknesses. Id rather play around them but pile on my strengths as much as possible.
Goff is the go to for boy spam w extra hits and skarboys (higher star)
Badmoons is the KMK units
Evil suns or boodaxes will be the core of lost peoples armies depending on what they plan on using..
Remember zhardsnark is still evil suns....
The 2 main questions I have is the trikeboss a vehicle of biker keyword
This is important because a painboy on bike with lukky stick (Goff) gives FNP to bikers...and the lukky stick makes the painboy klaw finally good with a nice aura.
And what’s the price of bikers/nob bikers because bloodaxe bikers might be good again. Especially nob bikers if priced right with BCs.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Bah, they just confirmed that the mek shop doesn't allow units to shoot for a turn. gakky terrain is gakky.
Just get it for decoration, don't bother wasting points or using the rules.
Damn, that's actually a good idea
.Well, blood axe nob bikers with Kombi skorchas could be fun too.
I'm imagining a 3+ save, falling back from Kombat and roasting everything.
Can you fall back and still shoot??
I think it was leaked that Blood Axes can shoot and charge after falling back, as well as getting cover out in the open. It could be wrong, but the leaks were pretty reliable thus far.
Evil Sunz is pretty nuts. I'm waiting to see the actual full rules for Blood Axes but right now the extra speed and no penalty for assault weapons on the run means I'm leaning Evil Sunz. I might do a Skar Boy Goff detachment but faster boys with shootas might be more worthwhile.
gungo wrote: Goff is the go to for boy spam w extra hits and skarboys (higher star)
Badmoons is the KMK units
Evil suns or boodaxes will be the core of lost peoples armies depending on what they plan on using..
Remember zhardsnark is still evil suns....
The 2 main questions I have is the trikeboss a vehicle of biker keyword
This is important because a painboy on bike with lukky stick (Goff) gives FNP to bikers...and the lukky stick makes the painboy klaw finally good with a nice aura.
And what’s the price of bikers/nob bikers because bloodaxe bikers might be good again. Especially nob bikers if priced right with BCs.
Characters on a bike other than zhad won't exist. Per KiriothTV.
Also per the same, blood axes may shoot and charge the turn they fell back.
Stompa is one of the funniest model in the codex, with an infinite re-roll apparently on the gatling ... but the gun might stop working for the whole game too
Stompa is one of the funniest model in the codex, with an infinite re-roll apparently on the gatling ... but the gun might stop working for the whole game too
920pts though
worth it
40PV
Is 40 wounds for 920 points worth it though? What are the stats on the gun? And what do you mean by infinite reroll?
Man it's gotta be nuts if it's worth 920 points in a meta full of knights with anti-knight firepower. I'd prefer it this way though, don't just make an orky knight. Make it crazy good and dumb expensive
I dunno, even with the leaked weapons 920 points seems a bit expensive unless it gets an invul now for free (not with a KFF inside or something).
I wonder with the gatling has the old Pycho Dakka Blasta rule where you roll 2D6 for your shots and keep shooting until you roll doubles. That was a lot more fun than the current version
got them for £8 each then they bumped them to £10
). Warbikers may drop around 2 points each, looking at marine bikes i can't see them dropping the points level of our bikes much...... This edition just hates bikes, unless your shining spears or dark eldar reavers! 
I can see deffkoptas dropping 5-10 points in total as they are crazy expensive. Gork/Morkanaut i can see dropping around 20 points base and then maybe another 10-20 points from the new updated weapon costs. Deffdreads really need to come down, we pay 4 points more than a normal dreadnought chassis that has 1 higher strength and 
Killa Kans i assume will stay the same base cost but will be cheaper overall due to the base weapons coming down.
im just on a tangent 
