Ratius wrote: Meh, IG codex was decent by him and Nids were useful up to 5th so, less of the Curddace hate.
PKimho is a worse rules writer. By far.
j
NO they were not a decent codex. A decent codex is when ALL units can be used. IG and Nids, only a select units were used, and a few others were NEVER used.
So I believe the Cruddace sp? critique is justified.
natfka wrote:Well, its been found, and I've read it. The Black Templars are officially part of the Space Marine codex. Before readers get upset about it, Robbin Cruddace talks very specifically about the subject in the September White Dwarf.
I will not quote what is said, for obvious reasons. Here is a rundown of what is important.
*The Black Templar are now part of the Space Marine codex
*Black Templar are the only chapter with access to Crusader Squads with Land Raider dedicated transports. Also the only chapter with Emperor's Champions.
*Allows many more units and flexibility being apart of the Space Marine codex.
*Unique Black Templar background and lore is in the codex as well.
*Each of the first founding chapters and the Black Templar have access to unique chapter tactics for their chapter.
*Imperial Fists are seige specialists and tank hunters
*Salamanders are flame weapon experts
*There are 30 successor chapters mentioned in the new codex.
I take this to meaning that the Black Templar will be getting their own supplement. As well as others like the Imperial Fists and Salamanders.
Re: Centurions
Bits wise, what I'm seeing is
3 helmets
3 bare heads
a helmet crest on the las-cannon Sgt
a targeting array on the las-cannon Sgt
six pauldrons
three lower body/leg sets. looking at them in both the IF and UM painted pics, you can see that there are three specific leg poses.
There only looks to be three groin plates, but it looks like there is more than 3 sets of thigh plates. So those might be separate bits.
Three upper bodies/chest plates.
Six arms
Chesticles for frag launchers, hurricane bolters, and missiles (on the Las-cannon Sgt).
two sets of HB and a set of Las-Cannons
Three sets of Breaching Drills, two sets of flamers and a set of meltas.
I'm going to bet 3 sprues, one that will be 2 full bodys, one that will be most of the weapon parts, and one that will have the Sgt. bits. The Breaching drills are likely to be three or so pieces, the HBs will be 2-3 pieces, and the LCs will be 2-3 parts. Magnets will be your friend.
Size wise, if you look at the bare heads, and use those as references, these things are probably on 60mm bases, and close to if not the same size as a dreadnought in height. The top of a basic marine's helmet will probably reach to the beltline on a Centurion.
Weaponswise,
The chesticles look like
Frag Launchers - probably act as offensive/defensive grenades.
Hurricane Bolter - same as a basic Hurricane Bolter (so 3 twin linked bolter shots, meaning if all 3 centurions have machinegun titties, you're looking at the same shooting output as a tactical squad).
Missile Launcher - probably equivalent to a Cyclone or Typhoon. I'm betting St5, multiple blast, 24-36" range to supplement the machinegun titties.
All are possibly one use only.
Assault arms - twin linked flamer or TL Melta, Breaching Drill is probably something along the lines of St10, Armorbane or 2d6 Armor Pen, and I like the idea of special rules against fortifications. Potentially ignore terrain.
Shooty Arms - Here's the tough call. Are their boomsticks TL, or not? And can they split fire? I'm betting the hands are power mittens, and count as dual wielded PFs. Will they get to carry something other than HB/LCs? I can imagine how much win these would be swinging a plasma cannon on each arm (or spectacular fail). Or a missile pod.
Roolz?
Higher than normal toughness and strength, of course. Initiative LD and Attacks on par with a vet. Extra wounds? it would make sense, given how big they might be. Saves same as Termi, or better. Etc. I'm betting they count as 3+ transport slots/very bulky, and can only be carried in a drop pod. I doubt that they have teleporter (gotta leave something for the Termis, right?).
0-1 on the FOC, either/or Assault or Heavy, or as Elite.
unit of 3 before upgrades should probably clock in the same as a Land Raider, so probably 70-80 or so points a piece?
Fluff?
Emulating the Gauntlets of Ultramar/Marneus Calgar's awesome suit of win, but since the technology is inscrutable and impossible to truly replicate, make it bigger. And only the most baddestest of the gnarled veterans get to ride in the stompy suits. Only ever activated in times of direstestest needs, which is always, because grimdark.
My ony practical question is how do they put their helmets on/wipe the mud and gore sprayed onto them off? Or do they have a servitor that follows them around with a hanky and o-ring lube?
I actually like these models (someone I think owes me $20, since I'm in my late 30s). It'll be neat to see them painted in less radiant hues, maybe with some chipping/weathering.
In is good. The same...not as much. MOAR LotD, MOAR I say! Seriously, and option to field them as an army would be amazeballs. Something like the Astorath option...?
VoidAngel wrote: Any word about Legion of the Damned in the new C:SM?
40K Radio, I believe, said that their weapons now ignore cover. Hopefully they'll adjust the point costs (down). 20pts for special weapons and 30pts for a heavy flamer is absurd. I hope to be able to actually field them now, as I really like the models.
Per Apocalypse 40k, per 40kradio
1.Centurion "devastator" come with Twin-Linked Heavy bolter and hurricane bolter for 60 pts. You can have up to 6 in a squad.
2. Legion of the Damned have flaming projectiles. All ranged attacks have ignore cover special rule.
3. Black Templars are in the book. They can not take some selections but have access to Centurions, Thunderfires, and so on. They have special rules for Chapter Tactics.
4.Chapter Tactics for the following chapters: Ultramarines, White Scars, Imperial Fist, Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard. They have two special rules per choice.
Notes on Centurions:
Centurions can be taken as Elites or Heavy.
Heavy support are the devastator option. They come with twin-linked Heavy bolters and Hurricane bolters. Hurricane can be upgraded to missile and HB upgraded to Twin- Las cannon or Grav-cannon and grav-amp.
Can upgrade to omniscope which gives night fight and split fire special rules.
They can select a Land Raider as a dedicated transport.
Special Rules: Slow and Purposeful, Decimator Protocols(Can fire up to two weapons in each shooting phase), Very Bulky, Chapter Tactics, and TSKNF.
Elites are the assault option. They come with Siege Drills at S9, twin-linked flamers and Ironclad assault launchers. They can upgrade flamers to meltas and assault launcher can be upgraded to hurricane bolters.
Can upgrade to omniscope which gives night fight and split fire special rules.
They can select a Land Raider as a dedicated transport.
Special Rules: Move through cover, Slow and Purposeful, Decimator Protocols(Can fire up to two weapons in each shooting phase), Very Bulky, Chapter Tactics, and TSKNF.
Will we have more Chapter tactics for non first founding chapters/templars (like a homebrew chapter trait chart?), or will we see a repeat of the sad, terrible combat/chapter tactics in 5th?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
wolfmerc wrote: I heard rumor of a new base size, (50mm?) just for them. but grain of salt.
Seems to be the way they are doing it. They already have a model in 50mm, and these are bigger than termies (40mm), but smaller than dreads (60mm).
I've seen things you people wouldn't buy. Unbalanced SM vehicles on fire off the shoulder of Ultramarine. I watched gaudily painted Centurions glitter in the dark near the Cadian gate. All those characters will be cast in finecost... like the yearly price increase... Time to die
EDIT again: Damnit, not a doublepost at all, bloody forums.
Anyway: for the love of jeebus, will someone -please- leak the Chapter Tactics for the Iron Hands, I must know if I'll finally be able to take Terminator Sergeants for my Tac squads again.
mothman_451 wrote: Per Apocalypse 40k, per 40kradio
1.Centurion "devastator" come with Twin-Linked Heavy bolter and hurricane bolter for 60 pts. You can have up to 6 in a squad.
Yup, almost definitely trash. I even assumed the HB's might be independent. How silly of me. Their only possible saving grace is the gravitron cannons.
2. Legion of the Damned have flaming projectiles. All ranged attacks have ignore cover special rule.
If they aren't absurdly priced again these might end up being very, very good.
4.Chapter Tactics for the following chapters: Ultramarines, White Scars, Imperial Fist, Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard. They have two special rules per choice.
Oh, that is sweet music to my ears.
Notes on Centurions:
Centurions can be taken as Elites or Heavy.
The first person I see that maxes out on these things I am going to laugh, really, really hard at.
Heavy support are the devastator option. They come with twin-linked Heavy bolters and Hurricane bolters. Hurricane can be upgraded to missile and HB upgraded to Twin- Las cannon or Grav-cannon and grav-amp.
Can upgrade to omniscope which gives night fight and split fire special rules.
Crappy.
They can select a Land Raider as a dedicated transport.
Meh.
Special Rules: Slow and Purposeful, Decimator Protocols(Can fire up to two weapons in each shooting phase), Very Bulky, Chapter Tactics, and TSKNF.
Mediocre.
Elites are the assault option. They come with Siege Drills at S9, twin-linked flamers and Ironclad assault launchers. They can upgrade flamers to meltas and assault launcher can be upgraded to hurricane bolters.
Unwieldy or not? AP2 or not? Price?
Special Rules: Move through cover, Slow and Purposeful, Decimator Protocols(Can fire up to two weapons in each shooting phase), Very Bulky, Chapter Tactics, and TSKNF.
Madocyw wrote: Re: Centurions
Bits wise, what I'm seeing is
3 helmets
3 bare heads
a helmet crest on the las-cannon Sgt
a targeting array on the las-cannon Sgt
six pauldrons
three lower body/leg sets. looking at them in both the IF and UM painted pics, you can see that there are three specific leg poses.
There only looks to be three groin plates, but it looks like there is more than 3 sets of thigh plates. So those might be separate bits.
Groin and thigh plates look to be a single piece.
Unless there are two heads, the crest could be seperate.
Can see these in a combat engineering role but they should have more mechanicum stuff on them.
Yodhrin wrote: For the love of jeebus will someone -please- leak the Chapter Tactics for the Iron Hands, I have to know if I can finally have legal Terminator Sergeants in my Tac squads again.
Or what the Chapter Tactics are completely, like are they similar to 4th ed traits or CT from 5th. The 4th ed had so much personalization than the 5th edition dex. I feel my plans for Blood Ravens specific tactics seem threatened.
mothman_451 wrote: Per Apocalypse 40k, per 40kradio
1.Centurion "devastator" come with Twin-Linked Heavy bolter and hurricane bolter for 60 pts. You can have up to 6 in a squad.
Yup, almost definitely trash. I even assumed the HB's might be independent. How silly of me. Their only possible saving grace is the gravitron cannons.
2. Legion of the Damned have flaming projectiles. All ranged attacks have ignore cover special rule.
If they aren't absurdly priced again these might end up being very, very good.
4.Chapter Tactics for the following chapters: Ultramarines, White Scars, Imperial Fist, Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard. They have two special rules per choice.
Oh, that is sweet music to my ears.
Notes on Centurions:
Centurions can be taken as Elites or Heavy.
The first person I see that maxes out on these things I am going to laugh, really, really hard at.
Heavy support are the devastator option. They come with twin-linked Heavy bolters and Hurricane bolters. Hurricane can be upgraded to missile and HB upgraded to Twin- Las cannon or Grav-cannon and grav-amp.
Can upgrade to omniscope which gives night fight and split fire special rules.
Crappy.
They can select a Land Raider as a dedicated transport.
Meh.
Special Rules: Slow and Purposeful, Decimator Protocols(Can fire up to two weapons in each shooting phase), Very Bulky, Chapter Tactics, and TSKNF.
Mediocre.
Elites are the assault option. They come with Siege Drills at S9, twin-linked flamers and Ironclad assault launchers. They can upgrade flamers to meltas and assault launcher can be upgraded to hurricane bolters.
Unwieldy or not? AP2 or not? Price?
Special Rules: Move through cover, Slow and Purposeful, Decimator Protocols(Can fire up to two weapons in each shooting phase), Very Bulky, Chapter Tactics, and TSKNF.
Wow, I called it! Centurions are gonna be the Mutilators of the Space Marine codex...
Rest of the rules look kickass, especially the two special rules per chapter bit.
"They already make 50mm round bases for one of the Hobbit characters"
Waitaminute...someone would have to purchase Lord of the Ring products to know that. And that would imply that someone PLAYS LotR games - which we know is simply not true...
Okay, so $4.00 each per tactical marine, $8.00 each vanguard, $10.00 each fot a sternguard, $26.00 each centurion, $30.00 each character and $58.00 fo the book??? Oh GW, you give me so much love, and hours of enjoyment reading threads, buy never buying models.
Proportion wise they make terminators look like davinci drew them... unless the arms are tucked into the chest armor or something, there is just absolutely no fething way in the world that they are in the actual suit arms... the hands would be at the biceps, the elbow in the shoulder...
Other stuff looks nice enough, but I am completely bored with GW at this point. Just looks like the same old stuff with some extra bits stuck on here and there. In fact that is almost exactly what it is isn't it?
VoidAngel wrote: "They already make 50mm round bases for one of the Hobbit characters"
Waitaminute...someone would have to purchase Lord of the Ring products to know that. And that would imply that someone PLAYS LotR games - which we know is simply not true...
VoidAngel wrote: "They already make 50mm round bases for one of the Hobbit characters"
Waitaminute...someone would have to purchase Lord of the Ring products to know that. And that would imply that someone PLAYS LotR games - which we know is simply not true...
That mounted base isn't 40 or 60mm, but its a bit bigger than that 28mm for the foot Azog. Therefore: Mounted Azog's on a new 50mm.
Well I guess they found a way to get he 50mm bases into use then. Not seeing light of day, so they'll get shoved into the pace marine camp to get circulated . Or not
EmperorsChampion wrote: It is a bitter sweet feeling with BT being put into the new codex. I hate myself for being excited about it...
Sure, not having your own book kind of sucks. But, on the other hand, you are going to get updated more often, and get a bunch of the cool toys that Codex: Space Marines gets! (Thunderfire Cannons!)
Curious to see what CT the White Scars get. Personaly I think they should have the plastic characters be 2 kits, 1 to make the Librarian or Chaplain and 1 to make a captain but have a larger range of bits for the captain so people could make him to fit their chapter (bionics for Iron Hands, scale cloaks for Salamanders etc.)
Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote: Curious to see what CT the White Scars get. Personaly I think they should have the plastic characters be 2 kits, 1 to make the Librarian or Chaplain and 1 to make a captain but have a larger range of bits for the captain so people could make him to fit their chapter (bionics for Iron Hands, scale cloaks for Salamanders etc.)
Skilled Rider should be one of the Special Rules that White Scars get >.>
I've seen things you people wouldn't buy. Unbalanced SM vehicles on fire off the shoulder of Ultramarine. I watched gaudily painted Centurions glitter in the dark near the Cadian gate. All those characters will be cast in finecost... like the yearly price increase... Time to die
M.
Yeah so Miguelsan has now established himself as an historic genius on par with Philip K. Dick, complete with a meta-meta reference to the first ancestors of space marines (Replicants) in reference to GW narratology in reference to GW business practices. Very grim-post-modern-dark.com/awesome.
I love how those "stabilizers" on the hunter/stalker have no foot on them and would essentially do nothing aside from plunge into the ground
The turrets looks neat though, easy fix is to leave some of that extra garbage off the chassis.
Centurions are just a stupid idea executed poorly but honestly nothing new needs to be added to make that book exciting. Here's to hoping that point costs and special rules make marines a bit more competitive in the dawn of Xenos hammer.
I've seen things you people wouldn't buy. Unbalanced SM vehicles on fire off the shoulder of Ultramarine. I watched gaudily painted Centurions glitter in the dark near the Cadian gate. All those characters will be cast in finecost... like the yearly price increase... Time to die
M.
Yeah so Miguelsan has now established himself as an historic genius on par with Philip K. Dick, complete with a meta-meta reference to the first ancestors of space marines (Replicants) in reference to GW narratology in reference to GW business practices. Very grim-post-modern-dark.com/awesome.
Accelerated decrepitude! Complaining about GW on dakka is like tears in rain
I've seen things you people wouldn't buy. Unbalanced SM vehicles on fire off the shoulder of Ultramarine. I watched gaudily painted Centurions glitter in the dark near the Cadian gate. All those characters will be cast in finecost... like the yearly price increase... Time to die
M.
Yeah so Miguelsan has now established himself as an historic genius on par with Philip K. Dick, complete with a meta-meta reference to the first ancestors of space marines (Replicants) in reference to GW narratology in reference to GW business practices. Very grim-post-modern-dark.com/awesome.
Accelerated decrepitude! Complaining about GW on dakka is like tears in rain
Great the see the Chaplain and Librarian! But what is GW's deal with producing the same looking Captains over and over again? They often have that sideward sword and clutch their weapon in a ridiculous way. Plus, this one doesn't look that different from the current Commander kit and Sicarius. If anything, its a mash up of the two!
Also, for us non BT Fist successor chapter players, it would be really annoying if the fluff revisionism of the Emperor's Champion as BT only is true! If there perhaps were rules to show how it's less common, sure, but a total removal?
Also, for us non BT Fist successor chapter players, it would be really annoying if the fluff revisionism of the Emperor's Champion as BT only is true! If there perhaps were rules to show how it's less common, sure, but a total removal?
Not sure what you're talking about when you say removal or revisionism. Only the Black Templars have ever had Emperor's Champions. Unless you're talking about some 3rd edition or before fluff.
Other chapters have had Company Champions, though.
Okay, so $4.00 each per tactical marine, $8.00 each vanguard, $10.00 each fot a sternguard, $26.00 each centurion, $30.00 each character and $58.00 fo the book??? Oh GW, you give me so much love, and hours of enjoyment reading threads, buy never buying models.
Let the Stealth price increases and the ongoing revenue streamlining process continue!!!
And of course the wonderful English quote by Thoma Tusser for those blindly loyal to Games Workshop.
A foole & his money,
be soone at debate:
which after with sorow,
repents him to late.
kronk wrote: Not sure what you're talking about when you say removal or revisionism. Only the Black Templars have ever had Emperor's Champions. Unless you're talking about some 3rd edition or before fluff.
When the Emperor's Champion was first introduced in 3rd edition, he was available specifically to BTs... but at that point in time, BTs were just Space Marines painted black. Chapter Approved opened him up to all Chapters.
When the 4th edition BT Codex came out, he reverted to BT only, ruleswise, although the fluff in his codex entry mentions that other Chapters do have Emperor's Champions still... there are just no rules for doing so in game.
ultimentra wrote:Toughness 5 would be a joke, they would need Iron Arm in order to stay alive, other wise 1 Leman Russ demolisher could wipe a squad of them with a single blast, or anything else thats strength 10 low AP for that matter.
If they were toughness 5 I would probably never take them unless they were immune to ID.
This can't be serious, right?
...Right?
Quite. Do you think Str 10 ap2 large blast on AV14 is a joke? I certainly don't, and neither do most people I fight against.
Yes, a bad joke. There's a reason Demolishers don't appear in competitive play at all. They are slow, short-ranged, and extremely avoidable. They're also DS Melta-bait and it looks like Centurions are a delivery system for exactly that. What I think is a joke is the idea that a unit's viability depends at all on its ability to survive a S10 AP2 blast to the face. T5, 2W, 2+/5++ is extremely survivable, as good as it can possibly get for an infantry model. Really. If that's not enough, then I suppose T6, 3W, 2+/4++ would be unacceptable because of the high risk of getting Daemonhammered.
kronk wrote: Not sure what you're talking about when you say removal or revisionism. Only the Black Templars have ever had Emperor's Champions. Unless you're talking about some 3rd edition or before fluff.
When the Emperor's Champion was first introduced in 3rd edition, he was available specifically to BTs... but at that point in time, BTs were just Space Marines painted black. Chapter Approved opened him up to all Chapters.
I always assumed those "other chapters" were BT successor chapters. I'm not sure if I had a basis in the fluff for thinking that...I've been in it since RT, I've read a lot of fluff over the years.
kronk wrote: Not sure what you're talking about when you say removal or revisionism. Only the Black Templars have ever had Emperor's Champions. Unless you're talking about some 3rd edition or before fluff.
When the Emperor's Champion was first introduced in 3rd edition, he was available specifically to BTs... but at that point in time, BTs were just Space Marines painted black. Chapter Approved opened him up to all Chapters. When the 4th edition BT Codex came out, he reverted to BT only, ruleswise, although the fluff in his codex entry mentions that other Chapters do have Emperor's Champions still... there are just no rules for doing so in game.
Right. That's what I was alluding too. Although I didn't realize he was moved to BT only for 4th. I had to find some old torn out White Dwarf pages with the Index Astartes Crimson Fist fluff in it to double check that they did mention having a rarely fielded Emperor's Champions. Although it also mentions how the armor was likely destroyed at Rynn's World so it's understandable they don't have it anymore!
But on the back of that page, a guide to make a custom game board based on the Fire Warrior computer game. Some days those were!
I've seen things you people wouldn't buy. Unbalanced SM vehicles on fire off the shoulder of Ultramarine. I watched gaudily painted Centurions glitter in the dark near the Cadian gate. All those characters will be cast in finecost... like the yearly price increase... Time to die
M.
Yeah so Miguelsan has now established himself as an historic genius on par with Philip K. Dick, complete with a meta-meta reference to the first ancestors of space marines (Replicants) in reference to GW narratology in reference to GW business practices. Very grim-post-modern-dark.com/awesome.
fluff-wise these days, it seems like it is only Imperial Fists and Black Templars that are the only one's using an EC...
there was one in Seventh Retribution, with the Imp Fists, and we know the BT's have them...
i have yet to read an actual story with them seeing action outside of these two chapters...
it will be interesting to see the changes that this Codex will bring to the background...
oh yeah, and plastic Vanguard and Sternguard are must buys for me...
plastic characters, too...
VoidAngel wrote: I always assumed those "other chapters" were BT successor chapters.
There is nothing in any official fluff that I'm aware of that indicates that BTshave any successors.
Sorry, other Sons of Dorn, is what I meant. Like those awful Space Marines from the Legion of the Damned novel...Excoriatiors? Excrementors? Something like that. *shudder*
Grey Templar wrote: Maybe not officially, but there are many IF successors that follow similar doctrines and for all intents and purposes are BTs.
The BTs are following the ways of the original legion to the letter, and many chapters follow in their footsteps.
If that were the case, the 4th Edition codex would have been Codex: Imperial Fists rather than Codex: Black Templars.
The Black Templars went down a very different path to their progenitor Chapter. Imperial Fists are a strict Codex Chapter, although they specialise in seige-craft. Black Templars... aren't.
Other Imperial Fists successors would be more likely to follow the Imperial Fists' doctrines rather than the rather divergent (and politically unpopular) methods of the Black Templars.
Well, couldn't you argue that the IF/BT/CF are a sort of trinity of their shared doctorine? Each manifesting their shared beliefs and strategy in a different way? Having an EC wouldn't be that uncommon in all flavors of the successors of the Sons of Dorn methinks.
But that discussion probably has the potential to go way OT, although it is interesting.
Whew! 62 pages of "Yo dawg, I heard you liked...." meme references, WORST MODEL EVA proclamations, and lectures on true scale. I'm exhausted!
While I do agree that the assault centurions are pretty ugly, I rather like the devastator version. The drill weapons are what's off about the assault version. The placement is wrong. Also, helmetless is just lame. But "WORST MODEL EVER" is just being harsh for the sake of hating on GW.
The sternguard are just too expensive $$ wise. Why are plastic models now as expensive as finecast? Vanguard being moved to Elites pretty much ensures they will never get used, as they are competing with Sternguard and terminators (as well as dreadnaughts). They should have stayed in FA (if the rumor is indeed true to begin with) where marine pickings are bit more slim.
Really like the new Hunter/Stalker Rhino variant, and like the idea of having a dedicated AA unit that's not an ADL. I just hope it has the option to fire non-skyfire, and I sincerely hope it has interceptor.
Not sure I believe all of the centurion rules claims from 40K radio that were previously posted. Seems an awful lot of detail without specifying the actual important stats, like saves and toughness. GW's need to make all imperial units that have 2 weapons twin linked is annoying as feth, and somewhat undercuts the usefulness of the centurions. Approximately 250 points for 3 gravcannons or TL Lascannons and 3 missile launchers. Unless they have T6 2W, and 2+ save, I'm not sure how often they will see use. The direct point comparison to Broadsides is a bit off, since 3 centurions can't throw out 36 missile shots and can't use wound-soaking drones. They also can't get interceptor and skyfire. 40K is a game of options and upgrades, and he who has the best upgrades, pays the most baseline points.
I'm really excited to hear about the chapter tactics, but I'm wondering how its going to work exactly. One would think that if playing a successor chapter, you would use the original chapters' tactics, but I just don't see Crimson Fists as siege specialists and tank hunters. Probably need to wait for the Imperial Fists supplement to get more fleshed out CT for Pedro's boys.
Since no mention has been made recently, I'm guessing the rumors about special rhino variants such as command rhinos and medical rhinos are just that, rumors. Kind of a shame, because I was looking forward to some reason to use my rhinos again. Maybe it will still show up as a vehicle upgrade (generally not something GW is going to showcase in a WD).
Finally, I'm hoping this release will put to rest the persistent (and incorrect) assumption that every codex gets a MC or large oval based model. I know it won't, but I can dream can't I?
Yodhrin wrote: They already make 50mm round bases for one of the Hobbit characters,
I guess that means "50 is the new Oval!". Now everyone will get a 50mm release. Next up? Ork MANZ!
ClassicCarraway wrote: Whew! 62 pages of "Yo dawg, I heard you liked...." meme references, WORST MODEL EVA proclamations, and lectures on true scale. I'm exhausted!
Well thank God you're here to set us all straight.
ClassicCarraway wrote: Not sure I believe all of the centurion rules claims from 40K radio that were previously posted. Seems an awful lot of detail without specifying the actual important stats, like saves and toughness. GW's need to make all imperial units that have 2 weapons twin linked is annoying as feth, and somewhat undercuts the usefulness of the centurions. Approximately 250 points for 3 gravcannons or TL Lascannons and 3 missile launchers. Unless they have T6 2W, and 2+ save, I'm not sure how often they will see use. The direct point comparison to Broadsides is a bit off, since 3 centurions can't throw out 36 missile shots and can't use wound-soaking drones. They also can't get interceptor and skyfire. 40K is a game of options and upgrades, and he who has the best upgrades, pays the most baseline points.
DA and WS exarchs that had double weapons the prior Ed ended up with twin linked versions so I can believe it.
ClassicCarraway wrote: GW's need to make all imperial units that have 2 weapons twin linked is annoying as feth, and somewhat undercuts the usefulness of the centurions.
I've been annoyed by that since 3rd ed came out. Why re-roll misses with BS4? Hardly worth it. Now if they were just two guns, or if 'twin-linked' just meant if you hit you got to try for a second hit - oh yeah.
Imagine if LRs actually came stock with 4 lascannons and 2 heavy bolters. Makes POTMS seem lame.
A note about this bit.........
The discussion was mostly about the new codex, but also about things down the pipeline. (which often appears a year out if based on previous discussions). So where this falls I am not completely sure. This being released on the site was OK'd, but I was not given a time frame for this.
via an Anonymous Source on Faeit 212
a AV 12/11/10, 11 transport capacity, skimmer tank, fast attack option with medium weaponry that can be taken as a dedicated transport by vanguard veterans
A note about this bit.........
The discussion was mostly about the new codex, but also about things down the pipeline. (which often appears a year out if based on previous discussions). So where this falls I am not completely sure. This being released on the site was OK'd, but I was not given a time frame for this.
via an Anonymous Source on Faeit 212
a AV 12/11/10, 11 transport capacity, skimmer tank, fast attack option with medium weaponry that can be taken as a dedicated transport by vanguard veterans
Now that is interesting, a skimmer
Fairly sure that's been declared false....read the stats again, it's basically a wave serpent. Probably some disgruntled marine player ticked off at the new Eldar toys,
A note about this bit.........
The discussion was mostly about the new codex, but also about things down the pipeline. (which often appears a year out if based on previous discussions). So where this falls I am not completely sure. This being released on the site was OK'd, but I was not given a time frame for this.
via an Anonymous Source on Faeit 212
a AV 12/11/10, 11 transport capacity, skimmer tank, fast attack option with medium weaponry that can be taken as a dedicated transport by vanguard veterans
Now that is interesting, a skimmer
Fairly sure that's been declared false....read the stats again, it's basically a wave serpent. Probably some disgruntled marine player ticked off at the new Eldar toys,
A note about this bit.........
The discussion was mostly about the new codex, but also about things down the pipeline. (which often appears a year out if based on previous discussions). So where this falls I am not completely sure. This being released on the site was OK'd, but I was not given a time frame for this.
via an Anonymous Source on Faeit 212
a AV 12/11/10, 11 transport capacity, skimmer tank, fast attack option with medium weaponry that can be taken as a dedicated transport by vanguard veterans
Now that is interesting, a skimmer
Fairly sure that's been declared false....read the stats again, it's basically a wave serpent. Probably some disgruntled marine player ticked off at the new Eldar toys,
Why would I want my Vanguard Vets riding in a non-assault vehicle...
Kirasu wrote: Bigger question is.. why would you want to assault in this edition period? You'll have to run over a fallen tree stump, fail your charge and get shot.
There are those (myself included) that prefer melee combat over shooting.
Kirasu wrote: Bigger question is.. why would you want to assault in this edition period? You'll have to run over a fallen tree stump, fail your charge and get shot.
Kirasu wrote: Bigger question is.. why would you want to assault in this edition period? You'll have to run over a fallen tree stump, fail your charge and get shot.
I dunno, I just had a game where my 4 meganobz and mek charged 7 dark angels bikers with a librarian, took zero wounds in the overwatch, and wiped them to the man in one turn. Still seems killey to me.
Gonna keep spamming this, but does anyone have any idea on the Chapter tactics system?
I'm guessing it will be simialr to the Legion rules from HH. Pick a Legion for your detachment and you get its rules army wide.
My theory (hear that Faeit, theory, not rumor) is that they chapter traits will replace the warlord traits, with you picking the trait for a generic warlord, and various special characters (like Calgar, Helbrecht, Lysander) having their chapter trait as fixed.
Yodhrin wrote: They already make 50mm round bases for one of the Hobbit characters,
I guess that means "50 is the new Oval!". Now everyone will get a 50mm release. Next up? Ork MANZ!
ClassicCarraway wrote: Whew! 62 pages of "Yo dawg, I heard you liked...." meme references, WORST MODEL EVA proclamations, and lectures on true scale. I'm exhausted!
Well thank God you're here to set us all straight.
(/obvious contempt)
Glad to see someone is in charge of the thread.
(/sarcasm)
MANz on 50mm bases would make sense if they sized them like the Centurions (as the one photoshop shows, it's a good size for them) with Nobz possibly being promoted to 40mm bases. XV-8 crisis suits also seem like a good fit for 50mm, as 40mm is rather limiting on posing them
Actually, if they are 50mm bases, I may have to pick up a few for my crisis suit commander, who even in finecast, likes tipping over on a 40mm.
Gonna keep spamming this, but does anyone have any idea on the Chapter tactics system?
I'm guessing it will be simialr to the Legion rules from HH. Pick a Legion for your detachment and you get its rules army wide.
My theory (hear that Faeit, theory, not rumor) is that they chapter traits will replace the warlord traits, with you picking the trait for a generic warlord, and various special characters (like Calgar, Helbrecht, Lysander) having their chapter trait as fixed.
So marines get to pick their warlord traits. No, that won't happen unless they want the peasants to revolt. Why not let them buy psychic powers while they're at it?
Like the legions or like the current take a character system, those are possible. This edition is far too "cinematic" for people to go around choosing what they want.
Gonna keep spamming this, but does anyone have any idea on the Chapter tactics system?
I'm guessing it will be simialr to the Legion rules from HH. Pick a Legion for your detachment and you get its rules army wide.
My theory (hear that Faeit, theory, not rumor) is that they chapter traits will replace the warlord traits, with you picking the trait for a generic warlord, and various special characters (like Calgar, Helbrecht, Lysander) having their chapter trait as fixed.
So marines get to pick their warlord traits. No, that won't happen unless they want the peasants to revolt. Why not let them buy psychic powers while they're at it?
Like the legions or like the current take a character system, those are possible. This edition is far too "cinematic" for people to go around choosing what they want.
Well it would be entirely plausible that the Codex contains several tables. You'll still have to roll Iafter choosing army type/chapter/whatever. t's not like the BRB doesn't already have three tables you pick one of.
I thought GW wasn't releasing any more squats?
Hang on a second... *leans forward*
FAT BABY DREADNOUGHTS!?!?!? WHAT HERESY IS THIS!?!?!?!?
'Well obviously there was a gap in the sizes of Terminators and Dreadnoughts, so what we've done is made something halfway between the two sizes, which really fills a hole that the Space Marines obviously had as an army. Now they're much more like *cough* Tau I MEAN as they should be.' - quote from GW designery person
why?
Better? I feel indifferent to them as they don't fit into my Red Scorpions army and they could be fixed up with a little bit of work; don't really see what all the fuss is about. My only question is what do they do that Dreadnoughts and Terminators can't?
Johnson101 wrote: Better? I feel indifferent to them as they don't fit into my Red Scorpions army and they could be fixed up with a little bit of work; don't really see what all the fuss is about. My only question is what do they do that Dreadnoughts and Terminators can't?
Drill two holes at once!
Considering that everything in the Imperium is built from pre-fab rockrete, there's a lot of need for remodelling services when ever you're trying to accomplish some non-STC buildings. All the pipes, ducts etc. need holes on the rockcrete - and hive cities have about a zillion miles of plumbing, cables etc. going on. Hence, plumbing/industrial drilling business is in big demand in the world of 40k, yet artificially restricted by the Guild of Concrete Cutters, who happen to have ties to powerful trader families and even to the High Lords of Terra. SM are pretty much the only group (outside Mechanicum) that can safely ignore the Guilds, so they can price their work lower and secure pretty much any contracts they can fit into their schedule - obviously, officially these contracts are titled as "siege engineering consulting and military capability modifications", so the Guild cannot complain about "unlicensed civilian contracting". Due to the high demand, Techmarines are under constant pressure to get the job done and move to the next one, to keep the Chapter coffins full - it's not cheap to keep all those Strike Cruisers running and patrolling, the fuel costs for zipping around the galaxy alone are, well, stellar.
So, crafting a suit capable of carrying and powering two drills instead of one makes perfect sense. The HB/Lascannon versions were created later, to keep down the inquiries why Marine Chapters happen to need a high efficiency industrial drilling rigs for..
Johnson101 wrote: Better? I feel indifferent to them as they don't fit into my Red Scorpions army and they could be fixed up with a little bit of work; don't really see what all the fuss is about. My only question is what do they do that Dreadnoughts and Terminators can't?
With any luck they'll provide small squads of super-tough TEQ that give access to previously unavailable weapons. The grav guns or drills will be their contribution, and they'll be survivable enough to deliver them to the target. I'm quite enthusiastic now, but if the HBolter turns out to be the best weapon then they may struggle for a role.
Honestly, I've gotten to the point where I can pick and choose what I want from my collection. Terminators one day, Sternguard the next. IF - unlikely I feel - these guys fit in droppods then the assault version could make ironclads in pods look pretty tame.
Gonna keep spamming this, but does anyone have any idea on the Chapter tactics system?
I'm guessing it will be simialr to the Legion rules from HH. Pick a Legion for your detachment and you get its rules army wide.
My theory (hear that Faeit, theory, not rumor) is that they chapter traits will replace the warlord traits, with you picking the trait for a generic warlord, and various special characters (like Calgar, Helbrecht, Lysander) having their chapter trait as fixed.
So marines get to pick their warlord traits. No, that won't happen unless they want the peasants to revolt. Why not let them buy psychic powers while they're at it?
Like the legions or like the current take a character system, those are possible. This edition is far too "cinematic" for people to go around choosing what they want.
Well it would be entirely plausible that the Codex contains several tables. You'll still have to roll Iafter choosing army type/chapter/whatever. t's not like the BRB doesn't already have three tables you pick one of.
I actually see this as plausible (I know it's atheory, but still).
Think of it like the 'Son's of the Primarch' in Apoc, If you take them you can't roll on a finest hour table. So if you take a Chapter Tactic, you can't roll on a Warlord table.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Actually, if they are 50mm bases, I may have to pick up a few for my crisis suit commander, who even in finecast, likes tipping over on a 40mm.
Tell me about it! I ended up cutting off the scenic pieces and attaching him to base with a flying post - looks much better!
I've very much in two minds about this release. Only having to buy one codex for both my regular marines and BTs that's pretty good on the other hand I love the BTs because they are so different to a codex chapter so I'm not sure how well they will survive this transition. The hunter looks pretty good but that twin turret thing is very silly. Plastic Sternguard and Vanguard look very good. However then there's the Centurions I really don't like the models as they are but I can see the potential for converting them into some sort of mini dread although that would take a lot of work. Ultimately the rules will determine if I'm interested in them or not.
I am sitting here desperately trying to come up with ways that those centurion models might be salvaged.
Back when GK's came out I was able to draft up a pretty good plan (satisfactory to me anyway) for how to fix up a non-stupid Dreadknight, but these guys are really throwing me for a loop. There's not too many marine models I dislike or find unworkable, but the Centurions are definitely in the running.
Also, for those that think everyone here is just complaining for no reason, I'm sorry. I (honest-to-goodness) think those models are ugly. I'm not sure what it is, but nothing about them makes me excited for the new book or seeing them across the table from me.
The centurions looks like they are a walking shield for infantry, It would be great if they can join units (like wolfguard do) and just soak up incomming fire.
Anyway, looking at those massive drills, it looks like they have a coil of wire on them.
Perhaps you can use them as a magna grapple and pull vehicles close.
That would also explain their design and placement like shooting weapons.
Centurions can be taken as Elites or Heavy.Heavy support are the devastator option. They come with twin-linked Heavy bolters and Hurricane bolters. Hurricane can be upgraded to missile and HB upgraded to Twin- Las cannon or Grav-cannon and grav-amp.
Can upgrade to omniscope which gives night fight and split fire special rules.
They can select a Land Raider as a dedicated transport.
Special Rules: Slow and Purposeful, Decimator Protocols(Can fire up to two weapons in each shooting phase), Very Bulky, Chapter Tactics, and TSKNF.
Elites are the assault option. They come with Siege Drills at S9, twin-linked flamers and Ironclad assault launchers. They can upgrade flamers to meltas and assault launcher can be upgraded to hurricne [sic!] bolters.
Can upgrade to omniscope which gives night fight and split fire special rules.
They can select a Land Raider as a dedicated transport.
Special Rules: Move through cover, Slow and Purposeful, Decimator Protocols(Can fire up to two weapons in each shooting phase), Very Bulky, Chapter Tactics, and TSKNF.
1. Centurion “devastator” come with Twin-Linked Heavy bolter and hurricane bolter for 60 pts. You can have up to 6 in a squad.
2. Legion of the Damned have flaming projectiles. All ranged attacks have ignore cover special rule.
3. Black Templars are in the book. They can not take some selections but have access to Centurions, Thunderfires, and so on. They have special rules for Chapter Tactics.
4.Chapter Tactics for the following chapters: Ultramarines, White Scars, Imperial Fist, Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard. They have two special rules per choice.
Kroothawk wrote: Here a better pic of the Stalker tank making the rounds:
Oh, and according to Natfka, the Wave Serpent didn't make it into the SM Codex
If any flier attacks the sides or rear of the Stalker its buggered! It looks like the guns rotate slightly but are fixed to the sides, originally I thought it was a turret with 360 movement...
Mick A wrote: It will be interesting to see how much of the new marine stuff will be Finecast after the rumours about GW phasing it out.
Where did you hear that they are dropping FC, but i do hope so, its utter gash, as for sm as far as i know its all plastic, plastic clam pack characters and plastic box sets for squads/tanks.
Mick A wrote: It will be interesting to see how much of the new marine stuff will be Finecast after the rumours about GW phasing it out.
I doubt it. There's still loads of Finecast in the SM range, not least all the Terminator-armoured HQ (and I'd think the current Power-Armoured HQ will stick around), all the Special Characters. the recently released Apoc-Captains, and a few odd bitz like the Thunderfire cannon. Legion of the Damned allegedly also get spiffy new "ignore-cover" rules but seem to remain Finecast.
I for one am so glad Dark Angels were spared of the Centurion monstrosity. ..I dont care how good their stats wil be!
Ok so we got a bit of a pokey landspeeder - but these things.
For once codex creep hasnt hurt my precious Angels at leat model wise.
More Centurion bits, according to 40K Radio's Facebook page (apologies if these have already come up):
2+ armour save, no invulnerable (Demolishers say hello )
They don't have EW You can't deep strike them
Fluff-wise they have been in use for 5,000 years and are used as "Line breakers" (IMOSM already have plenty of units that can do that)
With all the new fortifications that have been produced, is anyone really surprised that they have come up with a unit whose job it is to destroy fortifications?
I'm not.
Fezman wrote: Fluff-wise they have been in use for 5,000 years and are used as "Line breakers" (IMOSM already have plenty of units that can do that)
Yup. As I thought. "They've totally always been there, just off camera! Honest!".
Well, I can see the Imperium being slightly embarrassed by them. Now we now what Exterminatus is *really* used for. "Sir, the regiment of guardsmen has seen the Centurions and won't stop giggling. What can we do about that?"
Koppo wrote: To try a gauge the height of the Centurions I've tried to use the helmet as it seems to be a standard size, or at least I'm assuming its the same size as the one in tactical box set
Fezman wrote: More Centurion bits, according to 40K Radio's Facebook page (apologies if these have already come up):
2+ armour save, no invulnerable (Demolishers say hello )
They don't have EW You can't deep strike them
Fluff-wise they have been in use for 5,000 years and are used as "Line breakers" (IMOSM already have plenty of units that can do that)
I honestly don't see any great incentive to use these...
Koppo wrote: To try a gauge the height of the Centurions I've tried to use the helmet as it seems to be a standard size, or at least I'm assuming its the same size as the one in tactical box set
Try that with the WK or riptide?
Huh, doesn't seem to be that tall. Just slightly taller than a marine.
I am still waiting for a shot from the back. If, as rumours have it, you can truly see the Power-Armoured Space Marine piloting it by looking at the miniature from behind, and the exo-skelly mechanics that motivate it, it'll be a brilliant mini.
Internet-memes can go feth themselves.
At least it's something new, unlike the x-emth derivative Terminator/PA-variant that Forge World keeps gaking out.
Zognob Gorgoff wrote: looks like they dont rotate much, looks like they will hit the central radar gubbinz but does look like they point down.
Not the first Imperial vehicles to have problems turning the turret because GW decided to throw gubbinz in the way. They'll obviously still be 360 degree fire arcs.
Fezman wrote: More Centurion bits, according to 40K Radio's Facebook page (apologies if these have already come up):
2+ armour save, no invulnerable (Demolishers say hello )
They don't have EW You can't deep strike them
Fluff-wise they have been in use for 5,000 years and are used as "Line breakers" (IMOSM already have plenty of units that can do that)
I honestly don't see any great incentive to use these...
Koppo wrote: To try a gauge the height of the Centurions I've tried to use the helmet as it seems to be a standard size, or at least I'm assuming its the same size as the one in tactical box set
Try that with the WK or riptide?
Huh, doesn't seem to be that tall. Just slightly taller than a marine.
It looks like a PA marine will come up to about the top of the skull on the chest, while a Terminator would come up to the little neck grills, but TDA is much wider and bulkier than a PA marine, and Centurion Exo Armor (CEA?) is even wider.
So here's something interesting- Black Templars still have their own section on the Allies matrix. Do you think they'll FAQ that out, or we'll see a codex that has two different ally options in it? Would that also allow you to ally Templars with other chapters out of the same book?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yup. As I thought. "They've totally always been there, just off camera! Honest!".
And your solution to introducing new units would be?
Tech-Marines from the such-and-such chapter have developed this innovative new suit to deal with the challenges faced in the so-and-so campaign. It's been a slow process, but eventually they have been making their way into other chapters when their usefulness became apparent.
That could potentially still have them be around for a long time, but it's only now that they're seeing widespread use and distribution.
Fezman wrote: Fluff-wise they have been in use for 5,000 years and are used as "Line breakers" (IMOSM already have plenty of units that can do that)
Yup. As I thought. "They've totally always been there, just off camera! Honest!".
Well, that's one great reason to set the background for my armies in late M34 then
marv335 wrote: With all the new fortifications that have been produced, is anyone really surprised that they have come up with a unit whose job it is to destroy fortifications?
I'm not.
What, you mean like: Vindicators, Typhon Siege Tanks, Land Raider Achilles, Assault Terminators, Breaching Squads, and Ironclad Dreadnoughts? This is what people mean when they say there's not really a role for these suits, Marines have at the very least one unit for all the jobs now. Linebreakers? That's what Land Raiders, Terminators or, PA Marines in MK3 Iron armour and boarding shields are for. Siegecraft? No less than four vehicles, plus an artillery unit.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yup. As I thought. "They've totally always been there, just off camera! Honest!".
And your solution to introducing new units would be?
Don't. There are entire Imperial factions which have little or no representation in 40K at all, while Marines have every toy under the sun already, so don't give Marines new units. Give them new flavours of existing units and new ways to use existing units, and devote the studio's creative energies to fleshing out the various minor Imperial and Xenos factions; give the Inquisition the treatment they deserve, rather than a sideshow in Codex: Mary Sue. Arbites. Adeptus Mechanicus. The Ecclesiarchy/SoB. Kroot. Hrud. All the cool new races and pirates FFG have created for their RPGs. As long as they write rules for the Imperial stuff that synergises well with Space Marines, they could make an absolute mint flogging overpriced Allies minidexes to Marine players and even, god emperor forbid, make miniatures which would sell to people other than Marine players at the same time.
I mean seriously, if we were reading about this release, and it consisted of new plastic boxes for Sternguard, Vanguard, and Tacticals, plus three new plastic characters, and a new vehicle dual-kit, would you honestly be thinking to yourself "man, this release is boring, it totally needs some completely new and over the top plastic unit"?
I am still waiting for a shot from the back. If, as rumours have it, you can truly see the Power-Armoured Space Marine piloting it by looking at the miniature from behind, and the exo-skelly mechanics that motivate it, it'll be a brilliant mini.
Internet-memes can go feth themselves.
At least it's something new, unlike the x-emth derivative Terminator/PA-variant that Forge World keeps gaking out.
A few other things from that picture. If you look just below the left hurricane bolter, you can see a gap, giving us a more normal width marine waist, and then outside are two support rods that go from the hurricane bolters down to the knee joints. If you line up the waist, the leg length seems to indicate that the knee joint is lined up correctly, and the marine is standing on top on the dreadnought feet, giving him basically a set of 1 head tall stilts.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yup. As I thought. "They've totally always been there, just off camera! Honest!".
And your solution to introducing new units would be?
Tech-Marines from the such-and-such chapter have developed this innovative new suit to deal with the challenges faced in the so-and-so campaign. It's been a slow process, but eventually they have been making their way into other chapters when their usefulness became apparent.
That could potentially still have them be around for a long time, but it's only now that they're seeing widespread use and distribution.
I'd build on that and make them an attempt to provide terminator level protection in a much easier to build design, but it was too bulky and unsuited to deep strike, so was ignored until some chapter decided to slap some heavy weapons and more armor plating on it and use it as a siege unit.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yup. As I thought. "They've totally always been there, just off camera! Honest!".
And your solution to introducing new units would be?
Have it be a new invention, instead of something that was always there but never seen before?
The IoM may be a bunch of neophobes, but even they tend to make new stuff now and then.
It's not the first time new units have been added that have 'always been there' in the fluff. Vanguards & Sternguard anyone? They just use to be veteren tactical marines. Only blood angels had veteren assault marines. Dark Angel veterans use to ALL be deathwing termies. Sanguinary guard are one of the largest changes to an armies fluff out of nowhere in terms of going against history.
It really isn't a big deal, new units are cool, they make the game interesting....
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yup. As I thought. "They've totally always been there, just off camera! Honest!".
And your solution to introducing new units would be?
Have it be a new invention, instead of something that was always there but never seen before?
The IoM may be a bunch of neophobes, but even they tend to make new stuff now and then.
It's not the first time new units have been added that have 'always been there' in the fluff. Vanguards & Sternguard anyone? They just use to be veteren tactical marines. Only blood angels had veteren assault marines. Dark Angel veterans use to ALL be deathwing termies. Sanguinary guard are one of the largest changes to an armies fluff out of nowhere in terms of going against history.
It really isn't a big deal, new units are cool, they make the game interesting....
Oh, I know that. It's just a dumb and lazy way of doing it.
It's not the first time new units have been added that have 'always been there' in the fluff. Vanguards & Sternguard anyone? They just use to be veteren tactical marines.
Well, Sternguard used to be Ultramarine Tyranid War Veterans, hence the special ammo and stuff (Kraken Ammo?)
They only become Sternguard when Mat Ward decided that the Space Marines Codex need to move away from the Ultramarine-centric Ventris-Fan-Dex that Graham McNeill had written for 4th, giving unprecedented limelight to non-Ultramarine Space Marine chapters and filing off the serial numbers of all Ultramarine specific units (similary to how "Calgar's Honour Guard" > "Honour Guard".
Well, for stuff like Sanguinary Guard I could understand it. They are symbolic, they are fluffy.
If you would make those 'new' it wouldn't make any sense.
You could say that they created an assault elite army in honour to Sanguinius, but that would be less cool.
The lore where they are descendants from Sanguinius' own personal bodyguard sounds much better.
But stuff like these Centurions, they aren't that special; they don't look special.
But stuff like these Centurions, they aren't that special; they don't look special.
A) We haven't actually seen/read the Centurions fluff yet.
B) Everyone (e.g. H.R.M.C. et al.) was whining just the same, and just as much about Sanguinary Guards, fluff, nipple and all (like they do for every GW release).
Everyone whines continuously about everything that is to be released.
Then, it turns out to be good in-game, and all of the sudden, all of the haters absolutely love them.
thenoobbomb wrote: Everyone whines continuously about everything that is to be released.
Then, it turns out to be good in-game, and all of the sudden, all of the haters absolutely love them.
It's still possible to hate the models while loving the unit
thenoobbomb wrote: Everyone whines continuously about everything that is to be released.
Then, it turns out to be good in-game, and all of the sudden, all of the haters absolutely love them.
It's still possible to hate the models while loving the unit
Not for me, I simply can never buy a unit no matter how good it is if it looks ugly to me but fortunately I like the centurions so this aint a problem this time.
thenoobbomb wrote: Everyone whines continuously about everything that is to be released.
Then, it turns out to be good in-game, and all of the sudden, all of the haters absolutely love them.
Except the Centurion rules as they have been seen so far are absolutely trash. Twinlinked heavy bolter and a Hurricane bolter, no invulnerable Terminator for 60 points? Hahaha no. I seriously fear for the rest of the Codex.
Also, this comment is absolutely baseless. Even if the rules for them were good, with the current models, I'd rather slowly build up a squad of Contemptor Dreadnoughts over a period of time.
I don't remember people complaining when GW released good looking models.
I must have missed the broadside rage during the Tau release.
Was there a horrible wraitguard flamewar that i happened to sleep through as well.
thenoobbomb wrote: Everyone whines continuously about everything that is to be released.
Then, it turns out to be good in-game, and all of the sudden, all of the haters absolutely love them.
thenoobbomb wrote: Everyone whines continuously about everything that is to be released.
Then, it turns out to be good in-game, and all of the sudden, all of the haters absolutely love them.
Also, this comment is absolutely baseless.
Helldrake.
I know a lot of people that liked the Helldrake model at first glance, myself included. 99% of the comments I've seen regarding the Centurions are negative.
Literally, look at this poll - 73% at current think the Centurions suck.
I also specifically intended to point out that the Codex hasn't been released yet, but eh you got me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HoverBoy wrote: I don't remember people complaining when GW released good looking models.
I wonder why
Trust me. Opinion on Centurions will change when people see the 360-shots, the Marines "boarding" the Centurion from the back, etc.., see the miniatures.
And there were massive shitstorms surrouding both the Tau and the Eldar release. Just because you missed them (H.R.M.C. certainly didn't miss the opportunity to whine about it) doesn't mean it wasnt there.
I cant believe how many pages of this thread is centurion dissing and hate.
Finding actual usefull pictures and rumors is almost impossible. Have you considered opening a centurion thhread so you can hate there instead of muddling up this thread.
Zweischneid wrote: A) We haven't actually seen/read the Centurions fluff yet.
B) Everyone (e.g. H.R.M.C. et al.) was whining just the same, and just as much about Sanguinary Guards, fluff, nipple and all (like they do for every GW release).
A) Doesn't matter.
To me a unit has to express its fluff with their name and appearance.
They could be the emperor's real children and their name and model still wouldn't reflect that.
In my opinion they have the same fluff-relevance as a random driver from a Rhino.
One look at the SG and their name and you just know that they were his personal guard.
So they could really make Centurions a new invention instead of this "They have been here for 5000 years!" that they are doing now.
B) It's the internet. People always complain about new stuff.
Zweischneid wrote: A) We haven't actually seen/read the Centurions fluff yet.
B) Everyone (e.g. H.R.M.C. et al.) was whining just the same, and just as much about Sanguinary Guards, fluff, nipple and all (like they do for every GW release).
A) Doesn't matter.
To me a unit has to express its fluff with their name and appearance.
They could be the emperor's real children and their name and model still wouldn't reflect that.
In my opinion they have the same fluff-relevance as a random driver from a Rhino.
One look at the SG and their name and you just know that they were his personal guard.
So they could really make Centurions a new invention instead of this "They have been here for 5000 years!" that they are doing now.
B) It's the internet. People always complain about new stuff.
But who says the Centurions are supposed to special in this "Sanguinary-Guard" style way? They are a siege-warfare exo-skeleton, that a regular Marine will step-into (or out-of) without taking off his Power Armour. I doubt it's the Sanguinary Guard (or even 1st Company Terminators) guys in a Chapter that get this job.
And yes, people complain about the new stuff. They don't specifically complain about the Broadsides or Wraithguards, just like they don't complain much about the new Vanguard Vets. Those are just a re-hashs of the same-old, same-old. No creativity, but nobody is offended either. The shitstorm is always the new stuff. Riptide. Wraithknight. Now Centurions.
Yodhrin wrote: I mean seriously, if we were reading about this release, and it consisted of new plastic boxes for Sternguard, Vanguard, and Tacticals, plus three new plastic characters, and a new vehicle dual-kit, would you honestly be thinking to yourself "man, this release is boring, it totally needs some completely new and over the top plastic unit"?
Yes, and how many players would say "Cool new models, but I already have all the Sternguard, Vanguard, Tactical Marines, and HQ I could need, so I'll just buy the book and be good for a few more years."
Literally, look at this poll - 73% at current think the Centurions suck.
I also specifically intended to point out that the Codex hasn't been released yet, but eh you got me.
Yes, a "hughly scientific" poll linked to by a pair of articles titled "Attack of the termitubbies!" and "New Centurian Pics. Not Impressed." I'll bet that poll is unbiased.
Hm now what do we have here? Seems I'm a little late but no matter! Lets take a look...
Centurions: Now I don't want to be a Billy Bandwagon but I can't say I like these all that much. It's not like they physically repulse me but aesthetically I just don't feel they work. Very flat, very static and whatnot. I also personally find the concept rather droll and uninspired. I can just imagine the design meeting:
"Okay, so we've got a cool old school tank, some nice character sculpts and some updated plastic kits but we need a big, new exciting unit. So, any suggestons?
...
...
...
... Uh, bigger marines?
...
... Perfect!"
Like, there's so many different ideas they could have used like, I don't know, demolitions experts with demo charges, laser cutters and (yes) drills, or a squad of specialized melee fighters with all sorts of exotic weapons, or maybe even import those Forge World shieldy blokes, I dunnno. But sorry, fair enough if you like 'em but they are certainly not for me.
Captain: Well, it's definitely a very nice model, good detail if sporting a rather overused pose, but it's not my cup of tea I'm afraid.
Chaplain: Looks okay from what I can see, would prefer to see a clearer image before I make my judgement.
Librarian: Ooh now I do like this dashing gentleman. Good aggressive pose, nice detailing, good head sculpt and a cherubim! Ah, that makes me all nostalgic about the good old Daemonhunters days... Never before or since have I painted so many bums... Not all that keen on the sword and shield mind you, but that should be easy to fix.
Vanguard Veterans: Very nice, again, not for me (not a huge fan of jump troops) but I can still see they did a good job on these. Nice detail but not too over the top and lots of melee weapons (including PA thunder hammers and storm shields!) makes this a dandy little kit in my eyes.
Hunter/Stalker: The hunter's a nice throwback, beeeeg gun that still looks functional. Like the stalker as well, interesting and somewhat more original idea to have two separate gun turrets. The little pistony thingamabobs (wow, spellchecker recognizes thingamabobs!) seem a little bit too... little. But that's just me nitpicking.
Stern Guard: From the tiny picture they look rather lovely but, like the chaplain, I'll hold my tongue for now.
Overall, a pretty good release, I've never been a vanilla marine player but if the rules are splendid I may have to take a taste of the space marine punch.
I don't see any difference between amending the game's background to accommodate new units and introducing them as a new invention (which would be hard considering the 40k timeline is frozen). They weren't there yesterday. They're here today. Complaining about it seem counter productive.
You might argue about it being a valuable and/or enriching addition I guess...
I've held it true for many moons now that if you want to see the worst possible reaction to anything GW, go to Dakka. But that's cool, it's a forum where different people with a common interest convene.
I haven't read all 65 pages of this thread, so please forgive me if this was brought up already.
BUT
Given all the recent codex supplements, could we see not one but SIX suppliments for SM? One for each of the founding chapters without their own codex? It would be cool if they came out with one for each to give them all something to really make each one unique and to have something special.
I don't have a problem with the model so much as the rules. Granted it's all hypothetical until September, but if these are close to the mark I don't really see any reason to replace my current assualt/heavy weapon teams with something that is going to be a massive target.
I see the Centurions as a solution to the whole Hell-Turkey problem. With them being a 2+ save this will make them less affective. One squad of these could make a good defender for your backfield along with a Hunter.
I cant believe how many pages of this thread is centurion dissing and hate.
Finding actual usefull pictures and rumors is almost impossible. Have you considered opening a centurion thhread so you can hate there instead of muddling up this thread.
A: Try reading the actual title, it's not hard to find the pics.
B: Most of the pages and pages of centurion hate happened within 24 hours of their reveal. We have a very large amount of traffic and members here, it is no surprise the peak generated a great deal of posts, and many pages at that. People, much like yourself, want to chip in their 2 cents.
C: There is a large amount of centurion hate but other than that generally people seem to be ok with everything else... don't fall victim to what you are complaining about yourself by looking only at the negative and ignoring the positive.
Seriously guys, complaining about complaining is also complaining lol...
"And as the Arch-Heretic, Abbaddon, launched his 13th Black Crusade many Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes turned to reserves of experimental armour created but never used during the God-Emperor's Great Crusade. These Centurions, meant to be the next evolution of Tactical Dreadnought Armour, never saw service as the ravages of the Horus Heresy took resources away from their manufacture. But now, with Abbaddon's wolves at the very door of the Imperium itself, and with the Imperium beset on all sides by terrors within, without and beyond, these ancient untested weapons of war stand as a bulwark against the approaching tide."
- OR -
"Nah brah! They've always been there. For thousands of years we've 'ad 'em! Just off camera. For reals and all that!"
Zweischneid wrote: B) Everyone (e.g. H.R.M.C. et al.) was whining just the same, and just as much about Sanguinary Guards, fluff, nipple and all (like they do for every GW release).
edited for rule #1.
MajorTom11 wrote: Or Emprah forbid the Adeptus Mechanicus actually invent something lol...
40K is a litany of not introducing "new" and "high-tech" things, unless they're actually old things. 40K technology works backwards, getting better as you go back in the timeline. That's a universal constant, something I have first hand experience with given I've written fluff for numerous weapons and pieces of equipment.
I will admit, GW did shoot themselves in the foot slightly with the tech-heresy fluff, so I can slightly understand the retconning. Still, a more creative solution like that of H.M.B.C would be preferable, especially for something as significant as an entire new armour type.
Zweischneid wrote: And yes, people complain about the new stuff. They don't specifically complain about the Broadsides or Wraithguards, just like they don't complain much about the new Vanguard Vets. Those are just a re-hashs of the same-old, same-old. No creativity, but nobody is offended either. The shitstorm is always the new stuff. Riptide. Wraithknight. Now Centurions.
Edited for rule #1
"The gak storm is always the new stuff". What... you want us to make threads to complain about the old stuff?
New info comes out, and people post their opinions about it. What about that is so difficult for you to comprehend Zwei?
When I saw the Centurions I figured "well, now I can finally start Eldar".
Then I saw the Vanguard and HQ options and now I have all my old Space Marine models on the table to figure out how I can make a full Raven Guard company!
The good news for me is that unless they really retcon the fluff of the Raven Guard I will probably be okay without the Centurions.
Well, the Broadside and the plastic Wraithguard were specifically brought up as examples about "people don't complain about non-bad models".
I pointed out that this is a fallacy, as they were simply updated models for existing unit, thus an imperfect comparison to the (like the Riptide, Wraithknight, Heldrake, etc..,) all-new Centurions, who all, without exception, faced similar critique. What's so difficult for you to comprehend H.B.M.C.?
Zweischneid wrote: But who says the Centurions are supposed to special in this "Sanguinary-Guard" style way? They are a siege-warfare exo-skeleton, that a regular Marine will step-into (or out-of) without taking off his Power Armour. I doubt it's the Sanguinary Guard (or even 1st Company Terminators) guys in a Chapter that get this job.
That is the point in all of this!
If they are just some heavy exo-skeleton, then why the "They have been here for 5000 years!"?
They could just say that they are a new invention, nobody would complain and none of the old fluff would be massacred.
But now we'll probably get some lore on "They were used in battle X and Y" while my codex doesn't mention anything like that.
"And as the Arch-Heretic, Abbaddon, launched his 13th Black Crusade many Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes turned to reserves of experimental armour created but never used during the God-Emperor's Great Crusade. These Centurions, meant to be the next evolution of Tactical Dreadnought Armour, never saw service as the ravages of the Horus Heresy took resources away from their manufacture. But now, with Abbaddon's wolves at the very door of the Imperium itself, and with the Imperium beset on all sides by terrors within, without and beyond, these ancient untested weapons of war stand as a bulwark against the approaching tide."
- OR -
"Nah brah! They've always been there. For thousands of years we've 'ad 'em! Just off camera. For reals and all that!"
That reads like the exact same thing to me. We had it, you never saw us using it, now you do.
Why couldn’t the centurions just be a rediscovered STC? Or maybe they only just barely finish manufacturing them. The Imperium doesn’t flat out ever create new technology; they do it extremely slowly. There are tons of research stations and experimental outposts, it just takes hundreds if not thousands of years for anything “new” to be properly tested, retested, approved, disapproved, reapproved, retested, scrapped, revitalized, then tested again. So there is no reason that a new piece of Space Marine war gear couldn’t have been in the works for five millennia.
MajorTom11 wrote: Or Emprah forbid the Adeptus Mechanicus actually invent something lol...
40K is a litany of not introducing "new" and "high-tech" things, unless they're actually old things. 40K technology works backwards, getting better as you go back in the timeline. That's a universal constant, something I have first hand experience with given I've written fluff for numerous weapons and pieces of equipment.
I understand that, however that tract has always worked because they had seeded so many references and types of tech through 1st and 2nd ed that they had tons of 'old' stuff to mine in 3rd, 4th and 5th. But now, they are running out of those 'old references', and they are just introducing entirely new units and ret-conning them in. That is fine a little here and there, but at this point every release is ret-conning in significant units that change the feel of the race in terms of warfare, and that doesn't sit quite right as it wipes away the old and familiar. If they simply said, ok, radical admech invent things now and then, then you completely accept new units without resistance. The 'rules' they set up for archeotech only are a bit long in the tooth at this point. The need to advance the universe so they don't have to re-write the same tiny era of it over and over and over again. I'm not questioning the application of the rules of fiction here as correct to 40k, I am suggesting the rules of ficition in 40k need to evolve.
Maybe Centurions were invented 5000 years ago, but it took that long for them to be approved? Maybe the STC was incomplete and the AdMech had to fill in the gaps over time? Or maybe the ship carrying them was lost in the warp for millennia and the had prototypes to be checked to make sure they were untainted?
There are several ways they can be slid into fluff without causing major upset. Short of having a time machine, I think I can just go with the fluff for them.
Introduce a new model, but write the fluff to say "Chapter X discovered the STC for the exo-suit and has been using them to fight Y and now it has spread to all the chapters."
You get to have people complain about a new model and you get to have people who play Chapter X complain that everybody gets to have "their" toy now!
Imperial Deceit wrote: Why couldn’t the centurions just be a rediscovered STC? Or maybe they only just barely finish manufacturing them. The Imperium doesn’t flat out ever create new technology; they do it extremely slowly. There are tons of research stations and experimental outposts, it just takes hundreds if not thousands of years for anything “new” to be properly tested, retested, approved, disapproved, reapproved, retested, scrapped, revitalized, then tested again. So there is no reason that a new piece of Space Marine war gear couldn’t have been in the works for five millennia.
Either way, it wouldn't really make a difference, given that the 40K timeline doesn't progress.
The 6th Edition Space Marines Codex is not "set" one minute later in the 40K-timeline than the 3rd Edition Space Marines Codex.
Whether the Centurions are explained as having been discovered 5 minutes ago, or 5 millennia ago, the question on why they are in the 6th Edition book, but not the 3rd to 5th Edition book, would remain the same.
As long as they don't change existing works, as Cruddace sadly did with the Hive War fluff to shoehorn his Swarmlord creation into the 40k-verse, I think it'll be fine.
Okay what I don't get is that supposedly a marine is inside of this thing right? I just see him being very comfortable....
Also when are they going to stop using this BS line of "we have been using them for 5,000 years"? I know the whole in the future there is only war and they are not really making anything new anymore. That was OK when a unit here or there was coming out, but it has gotten a little old. How about they just drop it and say that they are finally making some new crap like the Tau do?
thenoobbomb wrote: Everyone whines continuously about everything that is to be released.
Then, it turns out to be good in-game, and all of the sudden, all of the haters absolutely love them.
Also, this comment is absolutely baseless.
Helldrake.
I know a lot of people that liked the Helldrake model at first glance, myself included. 99% of the comments I've seen regarding the Centurions are negative.
Literally, look at this poll - 73% at current think the Centurions suck.
I also specifically intended to point out that the Codex hasn't been released yet, but eh you got me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HoverBoy wrote: I don't remember people complaining when GW released good looking models.
I wonder why?
_______________________________________
Also, the GW website has changed and now there's a giant Aquila where the new release header usually is. Hinting at C:SM I presume?
I don't think internet message board surveys are a proper selection of the 40k playing community as a whole. For every person that posts stuff there probably 9 people that just read and move on. On top of that, there's probably another 9 that don't even use message boards. Just because the loudest people have an opinion doesn't make it a fact.
On topic: I'll probably be maxing slots with Centurions just to aggrivate. Suck it haters.
Okay what I don't get is that supposedly a marine is inside of this thing right? I just see him being very comfortable....
Well, we need pics of the Centurions from the back. All rumour-mongors say the model is semi-open on the backside, and that you can actually see the Power-armoured Marine and the mechanics he uses to steer the larger suit. So (unlike Terminator Armour) it would have to pay some reference to the regular Power-Armour anatomy.
I doubt the Marine is meant to be filling the suit out like regular armour, unless his name's Stretch Armstrong. His body is probably meant to be suspended in a harness or bundles of synthetic muscle or some other sci-fi doohickey.
But stuff like these Centurions, they aren't that special; they don't look special.
A) We haven't actually seen/read the Centurions fluff yet.
B) Everyone (e.g. H.R.M.C. et al.) was whining just the same, and just as much about Sanguinary Guards, fluff, nipple and all (like they do for every GW release).
Imperial Deceit wrote: Why couldn’t the centurions just be a rediscovered STC? Or maybe they only just barely finish manufacturing them. The Imperium doesn’t flat out ever create new technology; they do it extremely slowly. There are tons of research stations and experimental outposts, it just takes hundreds if not thousands of years for anything “new” to be properly tested, retested, approved, disapproved, reapproved, retested, scrapped, revitalized, then tested again. So there is no reason that a new piece of Space Marine war gear couldn’t have been in the works for five millennia.
Either way, it wouldn't really make a difference, given that the 40K timeline doesn't progress.
The 6th Edition Space Marines Codex is not "set" one minute later in the 40K-timeline than the 3rd Edition Space Marines Codex.
Whether the Centurions are explained as having been discovered 5 minutes ago, or 5 millennia ago, the question on why they are in the 6th Edition book, but not the 3rd to 5th Edition book, would remain the same.
As long as they don't change existing works, as Cruddace sadly did with the Hive War fluff to shoehorn his Swarmlord creation into the 40k-verse, I think it'll be fine.
Well the timeline actually does advance, with each edition. The 'Nids showed up, the Necrons awoke, the Cadian Gate has been captured, the 13th crusade launched, etc. It isn't a static universe.
Okay what I don't get is that supposedly a marine is inside of this thing right? I just see him being very comfortable....
Well, we need pics of the Centurions from the back. All rumour-mongors say the model is semi-open on the backside, and that you can actually see the Power-armoured Marine and the mechanics he uses to steer the larger suit. So (unlike Terminator Armour) it would have to pay some reference to the regular Power-Armour anatomy.
I've read that, and it sounds great, but I don't see how it will be very visible. There's clearly a dreadnought style power plant back there that should prevent us seeing any marine pilot...
I think its quite likely his feet are just below its knees and his arms are actually tucked in front of his chest under the suit's chestplate. Depending on what the back looks like that might work and explain the bulk of the suit in general.
Incidentally, I've realised why I like them: They are basically Atlas Battlemechs.
The 6th Edition Space Marines Codex is not "set" one minute later in the 40K-timeline than the 3rd Edition Space Marines Codex.
iirc wasn't Lysander a Sergeant in power armour in the 3rd edition Codex? I had a brief look at it once.
Yep, a thousand years ago he has a sergeant. Then he was a captain, and got lost in the warp for a millenium. Now he's back and this time... its personal...
The 6th Edition Space Marines Codex is not "set" one minute later in the 40K-timeline than the 3rd Edition Space Marines Codex.
iirc wasn't Lysander a Sergeant in power armour in the 3rd edition Codex? I had a brief look at it once.
yeah. He was just a Sergeant in 3rd Edition. But in the new fluff, he was lost in the Warp for Ages, and Calgar, Tigurius, etc.. are still the same today as they were in 3rd Edition. I think it's just Lysander being retconned to have a better story, and not that 3rd Edition was really Warhammer 39K.
Well the timeline actually does advance, with each edition. The 'Nids showed up, the Necrons awoke, the Cadian Gate has been captured, the 13th crusade launched, etc. It isn't a static universe.
No, everyone of those advances (half of which are instead additions to the prior timeline) happened in 3rd edition and have just been fleshed out retroactively in subsequent editions. Newer editions have "advanced" the timeline but at first months then weeks and days.
Okay what I don't get is that supposedly a marine is inside of this thing right? I just see him being very comfortable....
Also when are they going to stop using this BS line of "we have been using them for 5,000 years"? I know the whole in the future there is only war and they are not really making anything new anymore. That was OK when a unit here or there was coming out, but it has gotten a little old. How about they just drop it and say that they are finally making some new crap like the Tau do?
I think they're supposed to be like this, only instead the human is already wearing power armor (with another power armor welded on top). At least on the arms side. The legs are somehow... suspended in midair I would imagine. Which is kinda silly.
So the marine fits into the power armor in an unrealistic manner. And then you put the power armor suit into another power armor suit in the same sort of unrealistic manner.
Or you just look at it as putting galoshes on over terminator boots.
On second thought, it actually looks more like a Marauder from SC2.
Despite the bulky appearance of the Marauder (with matching oversived weapons!), one key thing that differentiates it from the Centurion is that it looks like it could actually move its heavy frame about, especially how the legs were designed. Plus it was already addressed on how the head was designed: the Centurion will always look a bit weird at first because the head is too small (or at least not "proportional" to PA marines), especially if you don't know that it's supposed to be an exoskeleton thing.
d-usa wrote: The whole "stepping into a suit" thing is not that unrealistic:
Except that comparing it to the centurion, the guy's head would GO GO GADGET! up to the top of the frames shoulders like a giraffe.
edit: Either way, marines don't exactly have a human type frame/proportions despite to fit into the existing power armor that has been around since RT. From the fluff, I find the steroid hulk super freak proportions to be believeable for a space marine compared to a "tall human" but the go-go-gadget neck necessary for the centurion breaks that particular camel's back for me.
Yodhrin wrote: I mean seriously, if we were reading about this release, and it consisted of new plastic boxes for Sternguard, Vanguard, and Tacticals, plus three new plastic characters, and a new vehicle dual-kit, would you honestly be thinking to yourself "man, this release is boring, it totally needs some completely new and over the top plastic unit"?
Yes, and how many players would say "Cool new models, but I already have all the Sternguard, Vanguard, Tactical Marines, and HQ I could need, so I'll just buy the book and be good for a few more years."
Quite a few, no doubt, which is probably why you cut off the rest of my post which addresses your non-point.
I don't see any difference between amending the game's background to accommodate new units and introducing them as a new invention (which would be hard considering the 40k timeline is frozen). They weren't there yesterday. They're here today. Complaining about it seem counter productive.
You might argue about it being a valuable and/or enriching addition I guess...
Seriously, what is it about White Knights that makes them chronically incapable of quoting and responding to a whole post and its point, rather than just clipping out the one word or sentence that allows them to be flippantly dismissive?
Despite the bulky appearance of the Marauder (with matching oversived weapons!), one key thing that differentiates it from the Centurion is that it looks like it could actually move its heavy frame about, especially how the legs were designed. Plus it was already addressed on how the head was designed: the Centurion will always look a bit weird at first because the head is too small (or at least not "proportional" to PA marines), especially if you don't know that it's supposed to be an exoskeleton thing.
Well, I assume the Centurion itself has no head at all. It is simply the helmet (or helmet-less head) of the Power-armoured marine inside poking through.
I'm pretty sure everyone knew something over the top was coming to SM, every other new release got something crazy, sometimes more then one something. People just aren't impressed by what it turned out to be for SM. So maybe the centurion is a dud, so what? Every single model does not have to be the best thing ever, that's exaclty what causes codex creep. If it hadn't been way over the top then people would be complaning that SM didn't get anything like Eldar or Tau got.
I'm perfectly fine with 'they've always been there.' Should every new unit and wargear since Rogue Trader be an invention or discovery of late 41st millennium? It would create a silly few decade technology boom after ten millennia of stagnation, not to mention that you couldn't use half of your models in any historical scenario. In few years everyone has used to Centurions always being around an we'll have this exact same discussion about new Space Marine Warbuggys or somesuch.
While I think Centurions are hideous, and the rational part of my brain tells me to just ignore them, converter in me just can't let them go. They are so horrible, it will be an awesome challenge to make them look good! The rumours about the marine inside being visible from the back are interesting; I wonder how much armour you could strip and make the structures more visible. Also, I notice that none of the rumours thus far have actually mentioned them having powerfists. I hope they don't have them, as getting rid of those goofy orky mittens and just sticking the guns straight to arms would be a tremendous improvement.
Crimson wrote: While I think Centurions are hideous, and the rational part of my brain tells me to just ignore them, converter in me just can't let them go. They are so horrible, it will be an awesome challenge to make them look good!
The converter in me took a serious blow when GW decided to declare war against the bits sellers but YMMV. Every weapon, little tech bit, and armor plate just got that much more valuable now that I can't regularly buy just that bit without paying for the whole kit.
Kirasu wrote: Bigger question is.. why would you want to assault in this edition period? You'll have to run over a fallen tree stump, fail your charge and get shot.
Because contrary to popular internet opinion Assault, and assault heavy armies, are actually good in 6th. Just ask Daemon players
Well, I assume the Centurion itself has no head at all. It is simply the helmet (or helmet-less head) of the Power-armoured marine inside poking through.
Without knowing that it's an exoskeleton one will assume that that marine either has a really small head, or the marine really let himself go after his divorce.
My guess why a lot of people are against it is that because it "breaks" the established heroic proportions of marines ("breaks" in quotation marks because it technically doesn't due to the fact that it's armor over armor, but see my first statement).
H.B.M.C. wrote: I guess that means "50 is the new Oval!". Now everyone will get a 50mm release.
It will be oval bases AND 50mm infantry, with each new box 80+ US$.
Introducing 50mm bases is a small effort when asking customers to pay 40US$ per sprue, double the price than a year ago.
Lansirill wrote: Why is it when anybody tries to say anything positive about Games Workshop at all, people jump all over them and label them 'White Knights'?
How do we feel about this flying baby on the Librarian? I think I am about to grab the current finecast one as I was waiting to see what this new one would look like, and for twice the price I am not impressed!
LegioX217 wrote: How do we feel about this flying baby on the Librarian? I think I am about to grab the current finecast one as I was waiting to see what this new one would look like, and for twice the price I am not impressed!
The cherub does fit the 40K aesthetic very well. I’m curious to see if it just there for flavor or if it does something for the Librarian ala Chaos familiars.
Crimson wrote: While I think Centurions are hideous, and the rational part of my brain tells me to just ignore them, converter in me just can't let them go. They are so horrible, it will be an awesome challenge to make them look good! The rumours about the marine inside being visible from the back are interesting; I wonder how much armour you could strip and make the structures more visible. Also, I notice that none of the rumours thus far have actually mentioned them having powerfists. I hope they don't have them, as getting rid of those goofy orky mittens and just sticking the guns straight to arms would be a tremendous improvement.
I'm a painter and converter by nature myself, but I swear that is the first time I EVER heard anyone hope a MEQ or TEQ lacked AP2 weaponry because they thought it would LOOK better.
Also, are you talking about removing the arms completely and just attaching the guns to the bottom of the shoulders, or removing the hands and attaching the guns to the wrists? Because the former sounds good - the latter ridiculous.
Imperial Deceit wrote: The cherub does fit the 40K aesthetic very well. I’m curious to see if it just there for flavor or if it does something for the Librarian ala Chaos familiars.
I'm a painter and converter by nature myself, but I swear that is the first time I EVER heard anyone hope a MEQ or TEQ lacked AP2 weaponry because they thought it would LOOK better.
My first consideration in this game is the look of the models.
Also, are you talking about removing the arms completely and just attaching the guns to the bottom of the shoulders, or removing the hands and attaching the guns to the wrists? Because the former sounds good - the latter ridiculous.
I was kinda thinking constructing some sort Contemptor-style gun/arm arrangement.
Has anyone else noticed the captain model is a resculpted assault on black reach captain? compare the two, they're in the same pose, with the same details with minor changes similar to the old megaforce resculpt models.
blood lance wrote: Has anyone else noticed the captain model is a resculpted assault on black reach captain? compare the two, they're in the same pose, with the same details with minor changes similar to the old megaforce resculpt models.
It's just one if the side effects of digital sculpting.
If you look across the various armies you will find that there are certain models that are present across the whole range.
It's a basic "chose base pose, add weapons, add decorations" process.
The Centurions look stiff and stupid. I like some of the looks of the rest of the stuff. Hopefully they do something to balance As they shall know no fear.
I'm still unsure how the Centurions can even move, as well as that, do the Space marines really need more 'line breaker' or 'heavy weapon' units? There are already several units able to fill these roles, and adding more isn't really productive. I really think GW should be expanding on troops, and trying to expand on rules for individual chapters and the traits that are shown by them. What I would like to see would mainly be a greater customization of characters, which in turn would effect the rest of the army. While chapter tactics already does this, it's only to an extent.
I'm also not sure about this Black Templar's thing. I imagine they are gonna keep Helbrecht, but I don't know how they will retain the Emperors champion or Grimaldus as their own units. Both will probably become alternatives to Chaplins and company champions.
So don't buy them. It's not like GW is holding you at gun point to buy their models. It would be easier to just rob you at that point. Based on the rumored stats they aren't even an auto-include. So there really isn't much reason to be griping. Now if it was the only model GW was releasing then sure, that would be a shame, however we are also getting some really nice pieces in this release as well.
Imperial Deceit wrote: So don't buy them. It's not like GW is holding you at gun point to buy their models. It would be easier to just rob you at that point. Based on the rumored stats they aren't even an auto-include. So there really isn't much reason to be griping. Now if it was the only model GW was releasing then sure, that would be a shame, however we are also getting some really nice pieces in this release as well.
Don't try and reduce criticism to 'griping'. I do agree that the other models do look good, but I'm entitled to post my opinions on this board, even if you disagree with them.
The centurion looks pretty epic, when did realism comes before epicness.
Who cares how a marine fits in it. It looks cool and that's all I care.
People don't need to do anything. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and just because you don't care about something doesn't mean planet earth has to agree with you. You should not be offended that other people don't like it, nor should people who don't like it be offended that you do. Make up your own mind and let others do the same, no one has a monopoly on opinion here.
In some cases it is criticism, however a lot of these posts it is mostly “These models suck, they are the worst thing ever” which is exactly griping. It is a generalization I admit but this topic is almost 70 pages long and generalizing is kind of warranted at this point. I don’t mind the criticism; it gets people thinking, like all of those who are trying to figure out cool conversion or how to improve the piece once they get one. However claiming something sucks is a pure opinion, and basically useless information. You don’t like centurions, we get it, it has been stated.
I've seen too many rumoured rules differ significantly from the end published version to stress about a leaked unit being rubbish.
When I have the published rule book in hand, and I've seen them in use on the tabletop, then I'll form an opinion.
Anything prior to that is to my mind foolish.
The centurion looks pretty epic, when did realism comes before epicness.
Who cares how a marine fits in it. It looks cool and that's all I care.
Upon the use of the word hating, I realised that this post would not end well. People are free to give their opinions here, don't try and put it down to 'hating'. That's fairly immature.
Imperial Deceit wrote: In some cases it is criticism, however a lot of these posts it is mostly “These models suck, they are the worst thing ever” which is exactly griping. It is a generalization I admit but this topic is almost 70 pages long and generalizing is kind of warranted at this point. I don’t mind the criticism; it gets people thinking, like all of those who are trying to figure out cool conversion or how to improve the piece once they get one. However claiming something sucks is a pure opinion, and basically useless information. You don’t like centurions, we get it, it has been stated.
Generalizing is never warranted. People are free to say if they don't like something, even if it's not fully critical.
Generalizing by which I mean I am not going to go through and list every exemption to my statement, instead I will use the qualifier of “most” instead of “all” thus save myself typing a page worth of examples. And I never said people weren’t free to say they don’t like something, I said it was useless information. However this is in danger of getting way off topic so I’m going to drop it now sense I won’t convince you to my side in either case. Anywho…
How ‘bout them Space Marines?
Has anyone been able source better pictures of the Sternguard?
So, yeah, sorry to interrupt all this discussions happening over here
I'm work-blocked right now, but I'm dying with curiousity, are the Sternguard pics up front anything new? I only remember a picture of 2 Sternguard with new arse-kicking Combi-weapons.
Those are the same pics from before. I'm holding out for another "leaked" box like the Vanguard vets, but I see that as unlikely despite how awesome it would be.
Who cares about what they look like, the only thing I am interested in are their rules, especially their new weapons. Heard about them wounding on armor save while denying the enemy's armor save in return.
Sigvatr wrote: Who cares about what they look like, the only thing I am interested in are their rules, especially their new weapons. Heard about them wounding on armor save while denying the enemy's armor save in return.
Grav weapons will be interesting. Although they could very easily be unbalancing. Wounding on the save instead of toughness isn't that bad, unless the gun also has a high str. or low ap, then you would be penalizing heavy armour units that usually pay a hefty fine for that armour. I really don't want to see them end up as an auto-include.
Of the three characters, I am very unsure about the chaplin, not liking the helm on it from this angle at all, unpleasant echoes of the Lamartes original. Will have to wait and see it from another angle. The Captain seems solid enough, but is very Ultramarine in aesthetic, I'm also not a fan of the 'holding the baby' gun holding and given this, it makes kit bashing very awkward, which is undesirable. The Librarian is freaking amazing, not sure about his cherub, but the rest of the model is bloody great, the head is very well done.
The Vanguard look good, the Sternguard look AMAZING (and I'm not exactly a big marine fan).
The Stalker and Hunter both look good, liking the additional bracing legs on them, I guess once they hit the table, the flyer trend will go out the window, especially given what appears to be two individually targeting turrets on the Stalker. Whilst my DE and Orks might well be crying over it, I hope it removes the necron flyer spam.
I'm not sold on the centurions, they seem very hastily put together, much as the recent space marine flyers have been. Just as the newly leaked images of the new forgeworld space marine flyer have really impressed me and left me wondering why on earth GW doesn't get that same dude or dudette to design their flyers, so am I now wondering what the forgeworld peeps could have done to create the centurion with less of a 'slapped together hastily' look. What, for example, is the point of the powerfists if they can't reach past either the heavy weapons or the drill things (poorly done drill things btw) and the legs... very badly done, strangely, whilst looking at these and pondering how to deal with the legs on them, I considered that a banelord styled tractor unit might work better than the giant legs they ended up with, that or just buying 3 forgeworld contemptors and running them 'count's as'.
The 'toy' aesthetic is becoming stronger and stronger in recent GW releases but forgeworld has not carried that into their production. I wonder if perhaps we older gamers are being market relocated to the forgeworld product and purposely away from the GW product? Given they are all but at the same price now, that might not be as offensive as it used to sound.
Imperial Deceit wrote: Grav weapons will be interesting. Although they could very easily be unbalancing. Wounding on the save instead of toughness isn't that bad, unless the gun also has a high str. or low ap, then you would be penalizing heavy armour units that usually pay a hefty fine for that armour. I really don't want to see them end up as an auto-include.
GW promised to stop stealing FW models. Weather or not that pertains to the sculpters I don't know. I personally like the metal terminator chapline, but a power armour model wouldbe good too.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Of the three characters, I am very unsure about the chaplin, not liking the helm on it from this angle at all, unpleasant echoes of the Lamartes original. Will have to wait and see it from another angle. The Captain seems solid enough, but is very Ultramarine in aesthetic, I'm also not a fan of the 'holding the baby' gun holding and given this, it makes kit bashing very awkward, which is undesirable. The Librarian is freaking amazing, not sure about his cherub, but the rest of the model is bloody great, the head is very well done.
The Vanguard look good, the Sternguard look AMAZING (and I'm not exactly a big marine fan).
The Stalker and Hunter both look good, liking the additional bracing legs on them, I guess once they hit the table, the flyer trend will go out the window, especially given what appears to be two individually targeting turrets on the Stalker. Whilst my DE and Orks might well be crying over it, I hope it removes the necron flyer spam.
I'm not sold on the centurions, they seem very hastily put together, much as the recent space marine flyers have been. Just as the newly leaked images of the new forgeworld space marine flyer have really impressed me and left me wondering why on earth GW doesn't get that same dude or dudette to design their flyers, so am I now wondering what the forgeworld peeps could have done to create the centurion with less of a 'slapped together hastily' look. What, for example, is the point of the powerfists if they can't reach past either the heavy weapons or the drill things (poorly done drill things btw) and the legs... very badly done, strangely, whilst looking at these and pondering how to deal with the legs on them, I considered that a banelord styled tractor unit might work better than the giant legs they ended up with, that or just buying 3 forgeworld contemptors and running them 'count's as'.
The 'toy' aesthetic is becoming stronger and stronger in recent GW releases but forgeworld has not carried that into their production. I wonder if perhaps we older gamers are being market relocated to the forgeworld product and purposely away from the GW product? Given they are all but at the same price now, that might not be as offensive as it used to sound.
In the event they are trying to shove vet gamers over to FW entirely, they need to put out an absolute, unassailable, unquestionable, unequivocal statement that Forgeworld units are legitimate in normal play, because apparently slapping big "APPROVED FOR 40K, NO, REALLY, THERE'S A BIG STAMP AND EVERYTHING" into the rules didn't work.
People will always be resistant to FW. While there are certainly some OP units in the IA books, that's also true of the GW codex. Although it seems like those same people don't seem to mind FW when I use one of there underpowered units...
Imperial Deceit wrote: People will always be resistant to FW. While there are certainly some OP units in the IA books, that's also true of the GW codex. Although it seems like those same people don't seem to mind FW when I use one of there underpowered units...
The problem is that Forge World isn't doing anything interesting anymore. They've largely given up innovating and seem to be content with becoming a guarded recluse for jaded gronards.
I am continually impressed with GW innovating and pushing the envelope, something that used to be Forge World's strength before they .. well, just gave up..
FW's Horus Heresy book in particular is just one giant copy-&-paste from Black Library, down to unit names and even named characters. Innovation? Zero. The miniatures may be decent sculpts, no doubt, but they are all timid iterations of the same old Space Marine and Terminator aesthetics. Add a spike here. Add a Rogue Trader easter-egg there. That's all. No risk. No fun. No greatness.
This is a far, far cry from the Forge World that dared break new ground for (than) stagnant miniatures lines like the Tau (e.g. XV9 suits).
In contrast, the GW-studio is really not afraid to try new things. The large Walkers like the Riptide or Wraithknight, even the flyers, would've been things from the (back than) more innovation-happy Forge World as little as 2 or 3 years ago.
And even in this, GW is not content. They could've easily done a "Space-Marines-Riptide", since they are on a roll. But they choose not to, instead going once again into a brand new, unfamiliar direction.
I get that the Centurions aren't everyone's cup of tea (though I do like them, and believe more people will as soon as 360-views are there), but they demonstrate a passion for innovation and experimentation that Forge World has sadly lost in recent years.
Not as Space Marines, no, in that role they look ridiculous. And I don't doubt that game mechanic-wise they're disappointing too.
No, for a long time I've had this army concept in mind for a space marine army that is basically mercenaries scouring the wreckage of past battles to outfit themselves. So as little powered armor as I can manage, but loads of scouts and vehicles like the landspeeder storm and the stormraven with magna-claws attached to haul out large pieces of junk. The centurions, with a little creative modding, would be about perfect for mining exo-suits that have been repurposed as heavy armor. Get rid of those stupid chest guns and replace them with hydraulic hoses, put the drills on the hands rather than hanging under them, and swap out the power armor inside for just some guy in a suit, get rid of the crotch plate, paint it in non-primary colors and dirty it up a bit and I think you'd have something really special.
But yeah, if you play traditional MEQ and you wanted something cool for your army, I feel for you. Maybe next edition your Weebles that Wobble but Don't Fall Down will at least have rules to counter-act their disappointing appearance.
I'm interested in how the chapter-specific chapter tactics are gunna work. How do ya signify what chapter you're using? Are they gunna be HQ upgrades, like a 'Seal of the Imperial Fists' does x, y and z etc?
FW Keeping true to the aesthetics of 30k is not a bad thing. And some of their recent stuff with the Mechanicus is amazing. If GW released anything that even hinted at the Imperium having automata the fluff Nazis would have a conniption. Plus don’t forget FW also does a lot of impressive Fantasy stuff as well. Do I wish there was more cross over between GW and FW? Absolutely. Imagine what FW could contribute to a codex like SM, and you can bet that if FW had made the centurion it would get a lot less complaints.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Is it offically a chapter tactics thing or are they going back to the traits and draw backs of 4th?
Nut's Chiropractor wrote: I'm interested in how the chapter-specific chapter tactics are gunna work. How do ya signify what chapter you're using? Are they gunna be HQ upgrades, like a 'Seal of the Imperial Fists' does x, y and z etc?
I'm very curious about this as well. One big question, will we be able to ally one C:SM chapter with another C:SM chapter? It would be pretty silly if Templars could ally with Blood Angels but not, say, Imperial Fists...but then it could also be silly to allow a book to ally with itself and effectively gain a 4th HS, Elite, or FA slot.
Nut's Chiropractor wrote: I'm interested in how the chapter-specific chapter tactics are gunna work. How do ya signify what chapter you're using? Are they gunna be HQ upgrades, like a 'Seal of the Imperial Fists' does x, y and z etc?
I imagine the same way you signify you're using Farsight Enclave or Iyanden.
No what we need is some overly convoluted system for unlocking models and traits. Something that require math, and equations, and maybe online assistance.
JOHIRA wrote: put the drills on the hands rather than hanging under them .
But then how will they safely take their Imperial Muffins out of the oven? You're not maintaining a coherent narrative here.
In the spirit of everyone yelling their opinions into the uncaring void, I actually got a bit excited at the SM: Codex rumours. I purged about $2,000 worth of marine stuff a year or so ago and didn't see myself ever playing 40k again, but I do have a handful of marines and a few friends that still play, so the temptation is always there, like the liter of horse tranquilizers I keep in the crawl space.
The Centurions look like a Space Crusade supplement. I guess that's an insult. I loved Space Crusade when I was 10 and wish I'd kept my copy to play with my boys, but...
I'm sure that there's some cool things you could do with the models, but at what will probably be $100 Canadian for 3, I don't think I'll be buying any to experiment with.
As long as we don't have to take specific special characters to unlock a chapter's abilities, I will be happy. I wouldn't mind having to pay a certain amount of points to gain it, but I dislike having to take a specific HQ. It's bad enough that certain special characters (who are supposed to be unique individuals) seem to be at every single battle in the galaxy because of their effectiveness, but I don't want it to be a requirement to play the army.
Centurions; love the devastator versions, loathe the assault versions - I think it's the drills that I dislike the most. They'd look fine on a Dreadnought but not so much on these.
Vanguard: they look spectacular, here's hoping they aren't super expensive point sinks.
Sternguard: not much to see yet, but really liking the rumor of having many weapon options on the sprue.
Hunter: I want to see a few different pictures, but so far it looks kind of dopey. The independent guns pointing/firing in different directions just looks goofy.
Stalker: Love it, can't wait to see the rules.
Captain: Eh, I dislike the Roman crests personally and the slightly altered AoBR pose doesn't do much for me.
Chaplain: Don't care for, and with GW seemingly unable to decide on a tabletop role for them we'll probably get expensive 3+/4++ power mauls with a mediocre ruleset that will be outshone by...
Librarian: Don't care for the model, clipping the cherub is a good start however. Will likely see a lot of these in armies if they decide to make them as cheap as the DA librarian.
Overall I like a lot of what I see and am reading. The idea of all of the first founding chapters getting a dedicated section is a great one along with special rules which would be much, much better than having to take a special character to give an army a unique flavor - providing you don't still have to take a special character! I can't wait to see more.
I'm really interested to see how chapter traits work. Are they just seven fixed sets or are we able to mix and match to create our own chapters? What will happen to Crimson Fists; will they just use Imperial Fists' rules? And how will special characters work?
I like the idea of buying upgrades for generic HQs to unlock chapter traits. It lets you build your own chapter without having to use that one specific guy.
Okay what I don't get is that supposedly a marine is inside of this thing right? I just see him being very comfortable....
Arms and head are still a problem, but if you drop the torso down so the belt matches the belt on the centurion, the legs connect back to the body. And put the legs up so the knees connect again, the joint is in the right place, just the feet are not at the bottom, he stands on top of the dreadnought feet like little stilts.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yup. As I thought. "They've totally always been there, just off camera! Honest!".
And your solution to introducing new units would be?
Tech-Marines from the such-and-such chapter have developed this innovative new suit to deal with the challenges faced in the so-and-so campaign. It's been a slow process, but eventually they have been making their way into other chapters when their usefulness became apparent.
That could potentially still have them be around for a long time, but it's only now that they're seeing widespread use and distribution.
Newly discovered STC. There, done. Old design, lost for millenia or never produced because the Dark Age of Technology...blah...blah...blah.
Hunter: I want to see a few different pictures, but so far it looks kind of dopey. The independent guns pointing/firing in different directions just looks goofy.
Stalker: Love it, can't wait to see the rules.
Just FYI, you got the two mixed up. The Hunter is the large single barreled one.
Imperial Deceit wrote: People will always be resistant to FW. While there are certainly some OP units in the IA books, that's also true of the GW codex. Although it seems like those same people don't seem to mind FW when I use one of there underpowered units...
The problem is that Forge World isn't doing anything interesting anymore. They've largely given up innovating and seem to be content with becoming a guarded recluse for jaded gronards.
I am continually impressed with GW innovating and pushing the envelope, something that used to be Forge World's strength before they .. well, just gave up..
FW's Horus Heresy book in particular is just one giant copy-&-paste from Black Library, down to unit names and even named characters. Innovation? Zero. The miniatures may be decent sculpts, no doubt, but they are all timid iterations of the same old Space Marine and Terminator aesthetics. Add a spike here. Add a Rogue Trader easter-egg there. That's all. No risk. No fun. No greatness.
This is a far, far cry from the Forge World that dared break new ground for (than) stagnant miniatures lines like the Tau (e.g. XV9 suits).
In contrast, the GW-studio is really not afraid to try new things. The large Walkers like the Riptide or Wraithknight, even the flyers, would've been things from the (back than) more innovation-happy Forge World as little as 2 or 3 years ago.
And even in this, GW is not content. They could've easily done a "Space-Marines-Riptide", since they are on a roll. But they choose not to, instead going once again into a brand new, unfamiliar direction.
I get that the Centurions aren't everyone's cup of tea (though I do like them, and believe more people will as soon as 360-views are there), but they demonstrate a passion for innovation and experimentation that Forge World has sadly lost in recent years.
Sorry but I have to disagree. I think the Horus Heresy book is great. Yes, they did use the Black Library stuff. Is it wrong to maintain continuity? I find the rules/army list is pretty interesting. But, to each his own.
On another note, I can't wait to see proper pics of the Sterguard and new Tac squad. Cheers.
Well the Grey Knights got the Dredd Knight and it could have been be fed into the normal Astartes - thank god its hasn't but the Centurions are IMHO are no better in terms of asthetics, I guess GW just needs to keep making new marine stuff to sell
Gotta love some folks about here; GW farts out the same old thing but bigger & more toylike, and that's innovation - Forgeworld decides to do a whole series of new books set in a different era than 40K with a different aesthetic, including units for a force that have been huge in the background but almost totally ignored by GW, and they're stagnant and uncreative.
Am I entirely happy with FW's recent output? No, I'd prefer they devote a little more of their design resources to 40K projects, and a lot more to Warhammer Forge, but even with the focus on the Heresy the idea that they're less creative than the main design studio is so blatantly wrong it's almost hilarious.
There was a lot of negtivity about the Dreadknight. However that was never a possibility of being added to the SM codex. Just like they won't get rune priests or sanguinary guard. Unless they decide to roll every chapter into one huge tome of a codex.
I'm not sure who you are talking to. If it's me, your "huge gap" occurred over the last few HOURS. Unlike some, I don't LIVE here. Oh, you had the same idea, earlier? Congratulations. Let me induct you into the honored ranks of Those Who Know A Little About The Grimdarkiverse...
If not me, please disregard.
And yes, to answer the question - one of the best explanations for new stuff is "rediscovered STC" - because GW itself keeps insisting the the Imperium does not innovate.
And yes, to answer the question - one of the best explanations for new stuff is "rediscovered STC" - because GW itself keeps insisting the the Imperium does not innovate.
They don't insist anything of the sort. The AdMech invents new stuff all the time, they just frown on anything not based on STC technology.
And yes, to answer the question - one of the best explanations for new stuff is "rediscovered STC" - because GW itself keeps insisting the the Imperium does not innovate.
They don't insist anything of the sort. The AdMech invents new stuff all the time, they just frown on anything not based on STC technology.
And the Adeptus Mechanicus are considered borderline what, by the whom? (Hint: first one starts with an 'H', and the second starts with a great, big 'I').
Innovation is NOT encouraged, and often punished. Now go rub some more ungents on your blessed mouse balls and recite the Litany Against the Azure Opticon of Mortifaction.
Imperial Deceit wrote: There was a lot of negtivity about the Dreadknight. However that was never a possibility of being added to the SM codex. Just like they won't get rune priests or sanguinary guard. Unless they decide to roll every chapter into one huge tome of a codex.
On the same vein, if the combat tactics are varied enough this may be a nice outlet for ailing BA players (which is a misnomer, one just kicked my butt last night) to play under a Raven Guard list or something similar so that way they wont feel so left out this edition, or at least if they want to go assault crazy across the board. Which makes me wonder, does anyone thing Raven Guard will get assault marines as troops, white scars get bikes, etc?
And yes, to answer the question - one of the best explanations for new stuff is "rediscovered STC" - because GW itself keeps insisting the the Imperium does not innovate.
They don't insist anything of the sort. The AdMech invents new stuff all the time, they just frown on anything not based on STC technology.
And the Adeptus Mechanicus are considered borderline what, by the whom? (Hint: first one starts with an 'H', and the second starts with a great, big 'I').
Innovation is NOT encouraged, and often punished. Now go rub some more ungents on your blessed mouse balls and recite the Litany Against the Azure Opticon of Mortifaction.
Innovation OUTSIDE STC TEMPLATES is not encouraged. The Land Raider Crusader was a new invention but based on STC tech, so it was OK, for example.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yup. As I thought. "They've totally always been there, just off camera! Honest!".
And your solution to introducing new units would be?
Yeah, I'm not really sure what the big commotion is about. New units get introduced EVERY edition, and there are always a handful that get offended by it. People will complain that the game has become stagnant but then complain when new units get introduced.
GW has basically chosen to expand the fluff instead of advancing it.
YES! Brother Chaplin of the Silver Screens Chapter, Master of the Voiceless.
Also we BA players are not "ailing" We just became way less entry-level friendly, and can't actually run a fluffy army with any success. However my Armoured Company BA does just fine. I will definitaly be playing some red marines in the future though, atleast until BA get some lovin' (2015 maybe?)
VoidAngel wrote: "Innovation OUTSIDE STC TEMPLATES is not encouraged. The Land Raider Crusader was a new invention but based on STC tech, so it was OK, for example."
I'm not sure what the argument is about. Do these Centurions appear to have descended from some STC?
For all we know they could've come from some repurpoused mining technology, just as the Rhino was originally a mining transport.
VoidAngel wrote: "Innovation OUTSIDE STC TEMPLATES is not encouraged. The Land Raider Crusader was a new invention but based on STC tech, so it was OK, for example."
I'm not sure what the argument is about. Do these Centurions appear to have descended from some STC?
For all we know they could've come from some repurpoused mining technology, just as the Rhino was originally a mining transport.
And how Terminator Armor was actually derived from suits used to work inside Plasma Reactors.
The thing I think a lot of people overlook is that the 40k background is a setting, not an ongoing story. Sometimes the 'current' point advances slightly, and sometimes the focus moves back a little.
But what this means for new units is that they have to be inserted somewhere. Without an advancing story line, anything you want to add has to be retrospectively inserted into existing background.
Each new codex release is not an advance in the story line. It is a revision of the previous version. And in that context, it is perfectly acceptable for a new unit to have 'always' been there.
insaniak wrote: The thing I think a lot of people overlook is that the 40k background is a setting, not an ongoing story. Sometimes the 'current' point advances slightly, and sometimes the focus moves back a little.
But what this means for new units is that they have to be inserted somewhere. Without an advancing story line, anything you want to add has to be retrospectively inserted into existing background.
Each new codex release is not an advance in the story line. It is a revision of the previous version. And in that context, it is perfectly acceptable for a new unit to have 'always' been there.
No, it's perfectly acceptable for well-sculpted units with good rules to have always been there.
If we seem biased against fugly models with terrible rules (terrible in the sense of balance or utility, not uber-Wardesque-killiness) - we are. Give me something that LOOKS like it could have always been there (Contemptor). Give me something that was referenced on page 67 of the Second Edition rulebook, once. "What, those heretical little monkeys on Mars finally adapted the Hrud fusil into a blessed instrument of the Emprah's divine will? I'll take 10,000."
Something like that. Not, "Hey - the studio vomited again - pay up!"
Animus wrote:Maybe the Centurions just really huge and the Marine doesn't have to stretch to every part?
Your scheme is almost perfect mate... considering the bare heads instead the helmet (that being different in shape could be bigger than usual you show what i Always thought about centurions... they are big enough for the marine to fit with chest and arms inside the chest of the suit and that the feet of the marine reach just the knee of the centurion suit... in this case both arms and lower legs are totally mechanic...
The same ones who ride in the front cupola on Darkshrouds?
Sorry to disapoint you but the marine inside the pulpit of the DS is not standing but he's seating so he can fit in the pulpit without problems... I am a DA player and i own 2 of these pattern of LS...
Your scheme is almost perfect mate... considering the bare heads instead the helmet (that being different in shape could be bigger than usual you show what i Always thought about centurions... they are big enough for the marine to fit with chest and arms inside the chest of the suit and that the feet of the marine reach just the knee of the centurion suit... in this case both arms and lower legs are totally mechanic...
And what happens to the marine's legs when the centurion tries to walk? Knees don't bent forwards, you know. Also, scaling of that pic is off; they're not that big.
insaniak wrote: The thing I think a lot of people overlook is that the 40k background is a setting, not an ongoing story. Sometimes the 'current' point advances slightly, and sometimes the focus moves back a little.
But what this means for new units is that they have to be inserted somewhere. Without an advancing story line, anything you want to add has to be retrospectively inserted into existing background.
Each new codex release is not an advance in the story line. It is a revision of the previous version. And in that context, it is perfectly acceptable for a new unit to have 'always' been there.
No, it's perfectly acceptable for well-sculpted units with good rules to have always been there.
If we seem biased against fugly models with terrible rules (terrible in the sense of balance or utility, not uber-Wardesque-killiness) - we are. Give me something that LOOKS like it could have always been there (Contemptor). Give me something that was referenced on page 67 of the Second Edition rulebook, once. "What, those heretical little monkeys on Mars finally adapted the Hrud fusil into a blessed instrument of the Emprah's divine will? I'll take 10,000."
Something like that. Not, "Hey - the studio vomited again - pay up!"
Agreed, a thousand times agreed - FW seems to be getting it right - looking at the redcent work on HH and the Adeptus Mechanicus - as noted the Contemptor is new - but could have always been there - the Centurions - just lazy, poor and horrible.............
Your scheme is almost perfect mate... considering the bare heads instead the helmet (that being different in shape could be bigger than usual you show what i Always thought about centurions... they are big enough for the marine to fit with chest and arms inside the chest of the suit and that the feet of the marine reach just the knee of the centurion suit... in this case both arms and lower legs are totally mechanic...
And what happens to the marine's legs when the centurion tries to walk? Knees don't bent forwards, you know. Also, scaling of that pic is off; they're not that big.
We must see the 360° or the centurion... as reported the rear of the suit is partially open and we can see where the marine sits...
And about size... i think the centurion is only slighlty smaller than a regular dread...
No, it's perfectly acceptable for well-sculpted units with good rules to have always been there.
If we seem biased against fugly models with terrible rules (terrible in the sense of balance or utility, not uber-Wardesque-killiness) - we are. Give me something that LOOKS like it could have always been there (Contemptor). Give me something that was referenced on page 67 of the Second Edition rulebook, once. "What, those heretical little monkeys on Mars finally adapted the Hrud fusil into a blessed instrument of the Emprah's divine will? I'll take 10,000."
Something like that. Not, "Hey - the studio vomited again - pay up!"
What a model looks liKe, and how that unit fits into the background are two completely separate issues.
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