First thing he does is SHORYUKEN a Black Legionnaire and punch a TERMINATOR through a marble column! RG has no time to think, just act, and man oh man, BL is so fethed
Good thing he does that in the book, because as is, he will never be able to do that in the game.
I still can not believe how ridiculously awful his rules are...
If he is just a monstrous creature, he has less mobility even than the terminators...
Azreal13 wrote: You know why TV shows have a shelf life? Or why movie sequels are almost always inferior to their predecessors? It's because if you have to work with a narrative, you either have to offer resolution or keep one-upping previous events. If you don't offer resolution, the audience gets bored and frustrated, if you continue to go bigger, you eventually cross into parody.
GW are already bordering on the latter, if they keep moving things forward (even if this is a single step for now) where can you see the game in 3 years? 10? 40K has lasted 30 years inhabiting, give or take, the same snap shot of time. It might seem exciting to have these long hinted at events actually occur in the fluff and in game, but ultimately what GW have done by moving the narrative forward rather than diving deeper into the universe is start a stopwatch that's going to keep counting down for their customers. What was a sandbox for the gamer and designers to play in is becoming a vector headed towards a conclusion. When your stated aim is to make the best toy soldiers in the world and keep doing it forever, starting your golden goose IP on a journey towards a conclusion isn't the best idea.
Okay I'll bite.
I don't think this is true. TV shows typically fail for two reasons. The first is that the writers run out of ideas, dig themselves into a hole and/or just say they don't want to do it any more.
The second is similar but instead of the writers its the actors. Characters and actors are linked and while writers might continue on in the world the fans don't think it is enjoyable without those characters and their actors.
I don't see how this "narratives lead to end points" stacks up.
Mainly because I have never got this difference between a story and a setting and aside from the catchy "gotcha" quote have never seen it explained.
As someone said above the Star Wars films are stories. The Star Wars universe is however a setting.
The same applies to say Lord of the Rings or Games of Thrones or even Harry Potter.
A setting just seems to be a sufficiently detailed world that you can start to imagine independent of a handful of characters.
What is the conclusion to 40k? Why does it have to have one? Why are GW setting a stop watch which counts down to some identifiable end point?
GW could sit down tomorrow and write out a planned history from the dawn of M42 through to M43 for every faction.
That would give them a thousand years to play with. Factions and characters could do this or that. Wars could be fought and planets won, lost or destroyed. They can write stories covering all of this.
I don't know how many campaign books a thousand years of potential conflicts would cover - its a question of imagination - but lets say in 20, 30, 100 years time they are close to telling them all. Well then they can just sit down and plot out M43-M44.
I think its perfectly reasonable to say you don't have faith in GW's writing or imagination to tell good stories. This idea however that once you start advancing the plot you have to ultimately reach the end point where everyone either lives happily ever after or dies is just wrong.
First thing he does is SHORYUKEN a Black Legionnaire and punch a TERMINATOR through a marble column! RG has no time to think, just act, and man oh man, BL is so fethed
Good thing he does that in the book, because as is, he will never be able to do that in the game.
I still can not believe how ridiculously awful his rules are...
If he is just a monstrous creature, he has less mobility even than the terminators...
Depends on his points but he has a 3+ Invun, FNP< Eternal Warrior and gets back up on a 4+ - so makes a Cheesetide or CheeseKnight look flimsy
He has a S6 AP1 weapon that does loads of stuff including a D Strike, plus a Bolt cannon.
Apart from not being super speedy what exactly is he missing?
First thing he does is SHORYUKEN a Black Legionnaire and punch a TERMINATOR through a marble column! RG has no time to think, just act, and man oh man, BL is so fethed
Good thing he does that in the book, because as is, he will never be able to do that in the game.
I still can not believe how ridiculously awful his rules are...
If he is just a monstrous creature, he has less mobility even than the terminators...
Depends on his points but he has a 3+ Invun, FNP< Eternal Warrior and gets back up on a 4+ - so makes a Cheesetide or CheeseKnight look flimsy
He has a S6 AP1 weapon that does loads of stuff including a D Strike, plus a Bolt cannon.
Apart from not being super speedy what exactly is he missing?
He could be pretty speedy with an electrodisplacement blessing with the librarius conclave.
First thing he does is SHORYUKEN a Black Legionnaire and punch a TERMINATOR through a marble column! RG has no time to think, just act, and man oh man, BL is so fethed
Good thing he does that in the book, because as is, he will never be able to do that in the game.
I still can not believe how ridiculously awful his rules are...
If he is just a monstrous creature, he has less mobility even than the terminators...
Depends on his points but he has a 3+ Invun, FNP< Eternal Warrior and gets back up on a 4+ - so makes a Cheesetide or CheeseKnight look flimsy
He has a S6 AP1 weapon that does loads of stuff including a D Strike, plus a Bolt cannon.
Apart from not being super speedy what exactly is he missing?
Character, he is missing character, stats and rules wise he is very boring, also, why is he a MC now? why cant he join units anymore?
First thing he does is SHORYUKEN a Black Legionnaire and punch a TERMINATOR through a marble column! RG has no time to think, just act, and man oh man, BL is so fethed
Good thing he does that in the book, because as is, he will never be able to do that in the game.
I still can not believe how ridiculously awful his rules are...
If he is just a monstrous creature, he has less mobility even than the terminators...
Depends on his points but he has a 3+ Invun, FNP< Eternal Warrior and gets back up on a 4+ - so makes a Cheesetide or CheeseKnight look flimsy
He has a S6 AP1 weapon that does loads of stuff including a D Strike, plus a Bolt cannon.
Apart from not being super speedy what exactly is he missing?
Character, he is missing character, stats and rules wise he is very boring, also, why is he a MC now? why cant he join units anymore?
Ah so boring rules rather than bad rules - I see. Re MC - gues they went by size but they are very inconsistant - see Cawl.
Maybe they wanted something other than yet another Deathstar character?
Incoming transmission
The Gathering Storm is over.
We saw Cadia burn, a Craftworld shattered, and we followed Eldar and Saint into the nightmare. We saw a Primarch rise again, and we went into hell itself to reach Terra.
The Gathering Storm is over.
Old Night is once again upon us. The gods fight against each other and laugh. But we won't give up without a fight either. We will muster. A new Great Crusade must begin. For Terra, and for the Emperor!
First thing he does is SHORYUKEN a Black Legionnaire and punch a TERMINATOR through a marble column! RG has no time to think, just act, and man oh man, BL is so fethed
Good thing he does that in the book, because as is, he will never be able to do that in the game.
I still can not believe how ridiculously awful his rules are...
If he is just a monstrous creature, he has less mobility even than the terminators...
Depends on his points but he has a 3+ Invun, FNP< Eternal Warrior and gets back up on a 4+ - so makes a Cheesetide or CheeseKnight look flimsy
He has a S6 AP1 weapon that does loads of stuff including a D Strike, plus a Bolt cannon.
Apart from not being super speedy what exactly is he missing?
S10, actually. And while the D on 6's to hit is nice, what really makes that weapon amazing is its "make an attack against EVERY model in EVERY unit within 1" of him, and all you have to give up is the normal 6 attacks" rule.
Due to the Command Traits, he also runs and charges an extra 1". He ain't fast, but he's not quite as slow as some. And he's re-rolling 1's to hit in assault from the same, so he's got a better chance of getting the D.
Incoming transmission
The Gathering Storm is over.
We saw Cadia burn, a Craftworld shattered, and we followed Eldar and Saint into the nightmare. We saw a Primarch rise again, and we went into hell itself to reach Terra.
The Gathering Storm is over.
Old Night is once again upon us. The gods fight against each other and laugh. But we won't give up without a fight either. We will muster. A new Great Crusade must begin. For Terra, and for the Emperor!
Incoming transmission
The Gathering Storm is over.
We saw Cadia burn, a Craftworld shattered, and we followed Eldar and Saint into the nightmare. We saw a Primarch rise again, and we went into hell itself to reach Terra.
The Gathering Storm is over.
Old Night is once again upon us. The gods fight against each other and laugh. But we won't give up without a fight either. We will muster. A new Great Crusade must begin. For Terra, and for the Emperor!
so, we;'ve seen the stats for gulliman himself, there been any leaks of the other two characters? I gotta give GW credit, they're packaging cypher with the ONE guy whom could over shadow HIS release
ncshooter426 wrote: Sisters *have* to be making a comeback now. Celestine herself has brought big Robbie G to the show...gaks about to get real.
More new Sisters models would be great However nothing reallty mentioned that makes it likely.
They, like St C will be somewhat alien and confusing for RG - I really wish they had done seperate fluff books like Leviathan so we could have more of it. Stick the rules in the smaller book.
ncshooter426 wrote: Sisters *have* to be making a comeback now. Celestine herself has brought big Robbie G to the show...gaks about to get real.
More new Sisters models would be great However nothing reallty mentioned that makes it likely.
They, like St C will be somewhat alien and confusing for RG - I really wish they had done seperate fluff books like Leviathan so we could have more of it. Stick the rules in the smaller book.
i read a leak a while back that RG reacts weirdly to St C because he feels she looks too much like The Emperor
ncshooter426 wrote: Sisters *have* to be making a comeback now. Celestine herself has brought big Robbie G to the show...gaks about to get real.
More new Sisters models would be great However nothing reallty mentioned that makes it likely.
They, like St C will be somewhat alien and confusing for RG - I really wish they had done seperate fluff books like Leviathan so we could have more of it. Stick the rules in the smaller book.
i read a leak a while back that RG reacts weirdly to St C because he feels she looks too much like The Emperor
ncshooter426 wrote: Sisters *have* to be making a comeback now. Celestine herself has brought big Robbie G to the show...gaks about to get real.
More new Sisters models would be great However nothing reallty mentioned that makes it likely.
They, like St C will be somewhat alien and confusing for RG - I really wish they had done seperate fluff books like Leviathan so we could have more of it. Stick the rules in the smaller book.
i read a leak a while back that RG reacts weirdly to St C because he feels she looks too much like The Emperor
thats a little...odd?
Not if you subscribe to the theory that she's an Avatar or Greater Demon of the Emperor. She looks like the Emperor, because she's imbued with the Emperor's physic essence. Or something.
a rename for 40k isn't likely in the cards. 40k is too widely known a brandname, meanwhile, WFB was technicly just called "Warhammer" which due to the sucess of 40k likely lead to some brand confusion so the rename made sense.
with that in mind, if I was told "the name 40k is in approperate as the game laps a bit into 41k" I'd proably suggest renaming it to "warhammer 40k: Galatic Crusade" or something.
Warhammer 41,000: Roboute Girlyman and the Resurrectors of the Last Primarch. Warhammer 41,000: Roboute Girlyman and the Temple of Terra. Warhammer 41,000: Roboute Girlyman and the Last Crusade. Warhammer 41,000: Roboute Girlyman and the Imperium of the Dessicated Emperor.
Warhammer 41,000: Great Crusade 2 Electric Boogaloo
I'd.... read the book and make your own call there. But since Rob said it this afternoon on Twitch, you can play Cypher with Fallen, special Fallen stuff. It's a gorgeous trio. I'm not an Ultramarine player but I'll find a reason to have Guilliman on the field, even if it's just to hold Cawl's purse, or something Seriously though, I think Guilliman will be just fine on the field, especially synergizing with his boyz.
VeteranNoob wrote: I'd.... read the book and make your own call there. But since Rob said it this afternoon on Twitch, you can play Cypher with Fallen, special Fallen stuff. It's a gorgeous trio. I'm not an Ultramarine player but I'll find a reason to have Guilliman on the field, even if it's just to hold Cawl's purse, or something Seriously though, I think Guilliman will be just fine on the field, especially synergizing with his boyz.
VeteranNoob wrote: I'd.... read the book and make your own call there. But since Rob said it this afternoon on Twitch, you can play Cypher with Fallen, special Fallen stuff. It's a gorgeous trio. I'm not an Ultramarine player but I'll find a reason to have Guilliman on the field, even if it's just to hold Cawl's purse, or something Seriously though, I think Guilliman will be just fine on the field, especially synergizing with his boyz.
So was it good
how does it end, please tell us?
I thought it was an excellent story, IMO no way the last step before 8th ed, and the rumors for this book the past 2 weeks are not nearly on spot. GW wouldn't like me spoiling and that's no fun, anyway . It is a good story, though I don;t play UM, Fallen or GKs seems like they got some cool new options. facing Guilliman & UM is scary, as should be. Naturally, not everyone will be happy for one reason or another. Lots of cliffhanger IMO on that final page.
it's not over...
VeteranNoob wrote: I'd.... read the book and make your own call there. But since Rob said it this afternoon on Twitch, you can play Cypher with Fallen, special Fallen stuff. It's a gorgeous trio. I'm not an Ultramarine player but I'll find a reason to have Guilliman on the field, even if it's just to hold Cawl's purse, or something Seriously though, I think Guilliman will be just fine on the field, especially synergizing with his boyz.
Special Fallen stuff you say? Looks like I'll have to poney up and buy the book.
VeteranNoob wrote: I'd.... read the book and make your own call there. But since Rob said it this afternoon on Twitch, you can play Cypher with Fallen, special Fallen stuff. It's a gorgeous trio. I'm not an Ultramarine player but I'll find a reason to have Guilliman on the field, even if it's just to hold Cawl's purse, or something Seriously though, I think Guilliman will be just fine on the field, especially synergizing with his boyz.
Special Fallen stuff you say? Looks like I'll have to poney up and buy the book.
You can even see first if you want it. Undoubtedly somehow pics will show up but stores often have a review copy
VeteranNoob wrote: I'd.... read the book and make your own call there. But since Rob said it this afternoon on Twitch, you can play Cypher with Fallen, special Fallen stuff. It's a gorgeous trio. I'm not an Ultramarine player but I'll find a reason to have Guilliman on the field, even if it's just to hold Cawl's purse, or something Seriously though, I think Guilliman will be just fine on the field, especially synergizing with his boyz.
Special Fallen stuff you say? Looks like I'll have to poney up and buy the book.
You can even see first if you want it. Undoubtedly somehow pics will show up but stores often have a review copy
True. Maybe I'll wait though, keep the surprise (unless they get posted here).
By the tracker Atia is 100% But moving into a new crusade (a rally for the wavering Imperium) was gonna be the most likely next step anyway. The whole faction got Avatar of Khaine'd so much they were becoming as much of a joke as Abaddon. (In a fashion) With this regroup and push, they can seem like a legitimate space power, even though the odds are stacked against them.
Really wanna see those new Cypher rules, since Robby is D-Bait
He's 400 points. Comparatively, a Wraithguard bomb is 255. 355 if you want a Farseer to twin-link it. The bomb would likely kill him too I think.
I'd say the Aeldari are a lot stronger thanks to SfD. We'll have to see what/any detachments the Imperium gets but I'm pretty sure Ultramarines won't be unseating Eldar's top 3 tournament status just because of Roboute.
Audustum wrote: He's 400 points. Comparatively, a Wraithguard bomb is 255. 355 if you want a Farseer to twin-link it. The bomb would likely kill him too I think.
I'd say the Aeldari are a lot stronger thanks to SfD. We'll have to see what/any detachments the Imperium gets but I'm pretty sure Ultramarines won't be unseating Eldar's top 3 tournament status just because of Roboute.
400 points is pretty solid, it's pretty much what I predicted he'd be. as for gulliman unseating eldar, I don't expect it to, that said I just did the math, it's POSSIABLE to slide a cheap CAD with gulliman in it (in this case a bare bones Libby, and 2 bare bones scout squads) into a somewhat bare bones Battle company.
Audustum wrote: He's 400 points. Comparatively, a Wraithguard bomb is 255. 355 if you want a Farseer to twin-link it. The bomb would likely kill him too I think.
I'd say the Aeldari are a lot stronger thanks to SfD. We'll have to see what/any detachments the Imperium gets but I'm pretty sure Ultramarines won't be unseating Eldar's top 3 tournament status just because of Roboute.
400 points is pretty solid, it's pretty much what I predicted he'd be
Glad I helped someone! I posted that in the wrong thread.
I call him Big Blue. Agreed on Girlyman being annoying AF.
I am happy Roboute is an MC. Hopefully he comes with EW. I can't see him not having it. He will be a beast to deal with. But how many points will he be? Anything less than 500 would be nuts. But Wraithknights exist so all bets are off.
Audustum wrote: He's 400 points. Comparatively, a Wraithguard bomb is 255. 355 if you want a Farseer to twin-link it. The bomb would likely kill him too I think.
I'd say the Aeldari are a lot stronger thanks to SfD. We'll have to see what/any detachments the Imperium gets but I'm pretty sure Ultramarines won't be unseating Eldar's top 3 tournament status just because of Roboute.
What's your source for the point cost? I haven't seen that tidbit in any of the leaked images/rumors so far...
I call him Big Blue. Agreed on Girlyman being annoying AF.
I am happy Roboute is an MC. Hopefully he comes with EW. I can't see him not having it. He will be a beast to deal with. But how many points will he be? Anything less than 500 would be nuts. But Wraithknights exist so all bets are off.
yeah I agree calling him girlyman is old, it comes off pertulant.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: I don't know why, but I've taken to calling him Big G. .
well he's the biggest baddest beat stick in the IoM until we start seeing other primarchs
LightKing wrote: i never got the hate for Roboute in general from some 40k fans
he is the only primarch that realized that he had other skills than fighting
all the other primarchs are essentially overgrown man children..Roboute is the only one that had any level sense, besides maybe Khan
but Khan didn't have the administrative intelligence that Roboute had
the reason we have the Imperium still functioning after the Heresy was because of the Avenging Son....thats it
While I agree with you generally that the hate for Ultramarines and their Primarch seems... petty... I must disagree on the bolded statement.
Frankly, its exactly that recognition that led to several of the traitor primarchs rebelling in the first place.
Lorgar, Perturabo, and Magnus all exhibited non-war preferences that they were punished (to varying degrees) for pursuing.
you're right , my statement wasn't totally fair on that point
however, among the loyalists, Roboute was probably the only one that can have a major effect on the Imperium so it made the most sense to bring him back, lore wise
but GW probably brought him back because Ultramarines sells....but still
LightKing wrote: i never got the hate for Roboute in general from some 40k fans
he is the only primarch that realized that he had other skills than fighting
all the other primarchs are essentially overgrown man children..Roboute is the only one that had any level sense, besides maybe Khan
but Khan didn't have the administrative intelligence that Roboute had
the reason we have the Imperium still functioning after the Heresy was because of the Avenging Son....thats it
While I agree with you generally that the hate for Ultramarines and their Primarch seems... petty... I must disagree on the bolded statement.
Frankly, its exactly that recognition that led to several of the traitor primarchs rebelling in the first place.
Lorgar, Perturabo, and Magnus all exhibited non-war preferences that they were punished (to varying degrees) for pursuing.
Perturabo wasn't punished so much as he felt his talents where unappreciated, Magnus was toying with something he shouldn't have and was by all accounts given suprising leeway considering what he was dicking with, his end came about only after he literally destroyed the future of humanity. And Lorgar 's problem was inefficancy combined with eistablishing post compliance socieites that spat in the face of what the emperor WANTED. I suspect thats why the Ultramarines where his chosen tool to humble Lorgar, because the message was not "no building civilazations" but "don't build em so slow it impedes your progress and eistablish the right kind of socities damnit!"
As someone who has been playing 40k since 1988, not at all happy to see the setting be ruined in such a way.
What always made it cool was the age of heroes is over.
we had our one chance to create the perfect galaxy for humanity, but our own pride and ambition cause us to cut ourselves at the knees, and we've just been flailing at the every encroaching dark ever since.
Just trying to stave of the inevitable extinction for as long as possible, and getting more brutal and horrible to each other to achieve that.
The age of gods and heroes are just songs on the wind, the current world is harsh, bitter and cruel. There is no herculus to save us. We will all die in cold, dark and alone.
And no one will care.
This whole, bring back the age of heroes thing is totally destroying all the flavour from second edition that this game's great lore was built upon.
less is always more, and the fireside chats about 'what if the missing primarchs ever came back' was always better than anything GW could actually write up.
Very sad to see this happening, oh well. :(
Guess I'll just clutch my second edition codicies close and ignore everything GW Prime does from now on.
This must be what it's like to be old, and have young people ruin everything.
As someone who has been playing 40k since 1988, not at all happy to see the setting be ruined in such a way.
What always made it cool was the age of heroes is over.
we had our one chance to create the perfect galaxy for humanity, but our own pride and ambition cause us to cut ourselves at the knees, and we've just been flailing at the every encroaching dark ever since.
Just trying to stave of the inevitable extinction for as long as possible, and getting more brutal and horrible to each other to achieve that.
The age of gods and heroes are just songs on the wind, the current world is harsh, bitter and cruel. There is no herculus to save us. We will all die in cold, dark and alone.
And no one will care.
This whole, bring back the age of heroes thing is totally destroying all the flavour from second edition that this game's great lore was built upon.
less is always more, and the fireside chats about 'what if the missing primarchs ever came back' was always better than anything GW could actually write up.
Very sad to see this happening, oh well. :(
Guess I'll just clutch my second edition codicies close and ignore everything GW Prime does from now on.
This must be what it's like to be old, and have young people ruin everything.
Hah! I feel you.
Well said; you managed to articulate this way better than I did.
Not just ruin everything, ignore, or even mock, you when you try and explain how they're going to ruin everything, then come running to you when everything has gone to gak.
Breotan wrote: I just hope I can untwist his torso a bit without having to do major surgery to the model.
Guilliman has a torso wrapped in armor then legs join pelvis so I think you'll be fine. I was gonna use him for something else but...with that helmet on, in person, next to other normal size astartes...
I have about 40,000 pts of Blood Angels, Tau, Sisters of Battle, Blood Ravens and Ultra Marines all painted to the standard of these few minis listed below. Accumulated over 25 years of painting and assembling.
Sadly, these current changes are making me consider just throwing the whole lot in the trash and give up miniature painting and go find other hobbies.
I don't think I can reconcile these changes to myself in something I have loved for so long. Very hard.
LightKing wrote: i never got the hate for Roboute in general from some 40k fans
he is the only primarch that realized that he had other skills than fighting
all the other primarchs are essentially overgrown man children..Roboute is the only one that had any level sense, besides maybe Khan
but Khan didn't have the administrative intelligence that Roboute had
the reason we have the Imperium still functioning after the Heresy was because of the Avenging Son....thats it
While I agree with you generally that the hate for Ultramarines and their Primarch seems... petty... I must disagree on the bolded statement.
Frankly, its exactly that recognition that led to several of the traitor primarchs rebelling in the first place.
Lorgar, Perturabo, and Magnus all exhibited non-war preferences that they were punished (to varying degrees) for pursuing.
Lorgar founded a religion.
Magnus was actually dedicated to learning and scholarly attributes.
Perturabo built toys.
Fulgrim actively appreciated art and poetry.
Curze's initial focus wasn't just war and conquest - it was extreme law enforcement.
Horus was sort of forced into the Warmaster role - even then it wasn't primarily fighting, it was logistics at a larger scale (similar to Roboute).
Angron and Mortarion are both....special cases. Both were effectively denied their 'life goals' mere moments before they could be accomplished due to forced intervention by the Emperor. Both had been raised in environments where combat and survival were their only option.
Alpharius and Omegon had the misfortune of being he youngest and as such were trying to catch up to their brothers.
So that's 5 of the 9 traitor primarchs with other skills and pasttimes beyond fighting.
Now let's look at the loyallists.
The Lion was dedicated to war and conflict- to the point that his chapter were based around knightly orders.
Dorn was dedicated to building defenses - not structures that were aesthetically pleasing, not toys in his past time, but instead nothing but defenses.
The Khan was addicted to speed and specialised in hit and run warfare.
The Raven was practically dedicated to infiltration and assassination.
Russ lived for fighting and his Legion were affectionately known as The Rout.
Vulkan and Ferrus were smiths and artificers. They built things other than weapons.
Roboute was logistics based.
Sanguinius was very much a speaker.
So that's 5 loyallists who did nothing but fight.
Sorry, this approach is flawed.
Roboute's 'hate' has much to do with the general hate of the Ultras and even that didn't really originate until 5th edition when Ward came in and wanked out new lore and accomplishments, turning them from the embodiment of the Codex Astartes to special Super Mary Sues who can do no wrong ever and fart out unicorns.
Personally, I love the fact that he's disgusted by the current Imperium. Because it is an abomination. It's the one place that the Traitor Primarchs and Loyallists would agree - the current Imperium is NOTHING like what they had set out to build. Religion is embedded within its core despite their efforts to purge it from the galaxy, the Emperor is revered as a god and corruption is rife as a result of this. The power sits in the hands of old men sitting at a council rather than those who built and maintain the Imperium. Even with Roboute's post-Heresy efforts to ensure no one could ever wield as much power as Horus ever again you still get cases of rogue Priests turning half the church and AM commanders swinging just as must power for themselves.
Remember, a lot of the 'heresy' that stemmed forth from the Traitor Legions came from a perceived abuse of power. Mortarion and Angron felt they were denied the one thing they ever wanted, Magnus felt he was being victimised because of the one thing he excelled at. Curze's visions led him to believe that he was right all along. Perturabo felt slighted because of the favour given to Dorn.
The Astral Claws rebelled because they felt that there was no respect for their efforts to protect the Imperium and little to no support being given to them when they needed it.
Roleplayer wrote:I have about 40,000 pts of Blood Angels, Tau, Sisters of Battle, Blood Ravens and Ultra Marines all painted to the standard of these few minis listed below. Accumulated over 25 years of painting and assembling.
Sadly, these current changes are making me consider just throwing the whole lot in the trash and give up miniature painting and go find other hobbies.
I don't think I can reconcile these changes to myself in something I have loved for so long. Very hard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But in all seriousness, its a sad day when you can see that your 25 years of miniature paining/hobbying may come to an end cause of some fanfic writers in nottingham
Goobi2 wrote: By the tracker Atia is 100% But moving into a new crusade (a rally for the wavering Imperium) was gonna be the most likely next step anyway. The whole faction got Avatar of Khaine'd so much they were becoming as much of a joke as Abaddon. (In a fashion) With this regroup and push, they can seem like a legitimate space power, even though the odds are stacked against them.
Really wanna see those new Cypher rules, since Robby is D-Bait
The Crusade Rumor has been around more than a few weeks and reads something like this.
Guilliman goes to Terra and is upset with the Custodes and blames them for everything that has happened to keep the Emperor oblivious to how different the Galaxy is 10,000 later by himself. Guilliman confronts the Emperor and is given to him the Flaming Sword. Guilliman becomes de-facto Emperor and sends the Custodes away to start to start a new Crusade and Age of the Emperor.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But in all seriousness, its a sad day when you can see that your 25 years of miniature paining/hobbying may come to an end cause of some fanfic writers in nottingham
Yeah, no I get why you'd be bothered by it. Major change isn't always accepted.
Roleplayer wrote: I have about 40,000 pts of Blood Angels, Tau, Sisters of Battle, Blood Ravens and Ultra Marines all painted to the standard of these few minis listed below. Accumulated over 25 years of painting and assembling.
Sadly, these current changes are making me consider just throwing the whole lot in the trash and give up miniature painting and go find other hobbies.
I don't think I can reconcile these changes to myself in something I have loved for so long. Very hard.
This strikes as rather petty and shallow. Changes to the game and fluff don't invalidate your army. Older editions still exist and can be purchased second hand. Theres nothing stopping you from playing older editions with like minded players (and it seems theres quite a lot of them). In fact, this Gathering Storm arc isn't even a "change" to the fluff, its simply NEW fluff. The timeline is being advanced, not retconned. Changes to the fluff are things like retcons, like the Necrons being remade into Space Tomb Kings, or the Squats being deleted from Canon.
I stopped playing Warhammer 40K after 5th ed as I didn't like the scale creep and bloat (Fortifications, Titans, Super Heavies, Flyers etc in standard games), but I didn't throw out my Raven Guard army, I still have it in boxes and one day I might bring it out again to play with other like minded players in my club who also have old currently inactive armies that they may bring out again one day. We've collectively decided that 6th Ed is our final edition.
I didn't throw a tantrum and decide to throw my models away and quit wargaming altogether, I simply moved onto other games that interest me (Zombicide, SAGA, Lord of the Rings SBG and This is Not a Test currently). The only thing I've bought since quitting is the 6th Ed. rulebook (2nd hand), the 6th Ed. SM Codex and the 7th ed. Kauyon supplement (for the Raven Guard traits and gear, and the Tau units because my friend has an old Tau army).
Your miniatures are amazing though, great work.
If you really can't stand the new developments in the game and fluff, don't destroy your miniatures and all the hard work and sentimentality you invested in them. Sell them off so someone else can continue to enjoy the game, make a big profit that you can reinvest into another wargame that interests you or hell even a new hobby altogether. A 40,000 40K army would be enough to let you take up golfing or something.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But in all seriousness, its a sad day when you can see that your 25 years of miniature paining/hobbying may come to an end cause of some fanfic writers in nottingham
honestly before crying the end is neigh I'd wait and see what happens. the setting chanegs and evolves over time, we can't be sure what the long term game plan here is eaither, Gulliman could be the guy who shows us just how broken the IoM is, by having him attempt to do things, and do as great job of it,m but it not being eneugh, and having him reflect that the IoM just CAN'T do better, that the IoM isn't what it was, isn't what it could be, isn't what it should be.
one of the biggest bits of confusion people have is "Where did all this X from the heresy go" etc.
Gulliman gives GW a chance to really show how the IoM has fallen apart, why it has etc. and to reinforce how depressing it all is. (don't get me wrong I doubt GW is moving that direction. most likely we're going to see Primarchs clashing amid amies of loyalist and chaos marines. but it's waaaaay too early to draw conclusions)
Automatically Appended Next Post: But in all seriousness, its a sad day when you can see that your 25 years of miniature paining/hobbying may come to an end cause of some fanfic writers in nottingham
Fanfic which you have not read yet, which you don't need to read.
Nothing that is happening in any way makes your painted models less beautiful, nothing prevents you telling stories from any time in the 41st millennium.
As an example Gaunt's Ghosts are all long dead in the current timeline but I am still looking forward to the next book in the series.
GW is just telling another story in this setting. If you don't like that story, ignore it.
I've been following 40K on and off since the mid 90s. The "fate of the galaxy" metaplots were always one of the worst parts of the fluff and it's disappointing to see GW take this turn with them.
I'm doubtful this will benefit GW in the long run. They're exploiting the audience's investment in the status quo by destroying it. The only reason Primarchs returning is a big deal is the decades in which it didn't happen.
Generating short term excitement at the cost of long term investment is a good move if you're writing a story but a bad tradeoff for a setting that supports a miniature wargame (and novels etc.). Especially one that encourages players to personalise their armies and write their own background. (I dunno, maybe GW doesn't want to do that anymore.)
Sure, in theory the new normal could turn out more interesting and more popular than the old. More likely people will never care this much about the setting again and 40K goes the way of superhero comics, with earthshaking events becoming a regular thing until it turns into a soap opera.
Personally I'd already drifted away from the official fluff. It's not a huge loss to ignore what GW does with 40K from this point. And it's hardly the first franchise to start crapping on what made it cool. Still sucks though.
Yeah, I just dont have the faith in the fluff writing, to be honest.
Like, i don't think GW have the self control to do that, as almost the entire orginal setting crew have left the ship now.
We'll wait and see, but from what i've seen its all very GULLIMAN IS HERE TO SAVE THE DAY EVERYONE, YAYZ.
I don't think GW will just go, okay, we've done a little thing here, lets take 5-10 years to see how it shakes out slowly an explore the new setting they'll be like
That sold well, lets throw another huge thing in every 6 months or so, and give nothing a chance to breath, so its always stuff stuff stuff.
Roleplayer wrote: I have about 40,000 pts of Blood Angels, Tau, Sisters of Battle, Blood Ravens and Ultra Marines all painted to the standard of these few minis listed below. Accumulated over 25 years of painting and assembling.
Sadly, these current changes are making me consider just throwing the whole lot in the trash and give up miniature painting and go find other hobbies.
I don't think I can reconcile these changes to myself in something I have loved for so long. Very hard.
Roleplayer wrote: Yeah, I just dont have the faith in the fluff writing, to be honest.
Like, i don't think GW have the self control to do that, as almost the entire orginal setting crew have left the ship now.
We'll wait and see, but from what i've seen its all very GULLIMAN IS HERE TO SAVE THE DAY EVERYONE, YAYZ.
I don't think GW will just go, okay, we've done a little thing here, lets take 5-10 years to see how it shakes out slowly an explore the new setting they'll be like
That sold well, lets throw another huge thing in every 6 months or so, and give nothing a chance to breath, so its always stuff stuff stuff.
That's my worry.
my worry too truth be told, I don't mind the timeline advancing but doing it too quick tends to be... problematic.
Generating short term excitement at the cost of long term investment is a good move if you're writing a story but a bad tradeoff for a setting that supports a miniature wargame (and novels etc.). Especially one that encourages players to personalise their armies and write their own background. (I dunno, maybe GW doesn't want to do that anymore.)
Only if they take it too far. If they advance the timeline a few fractions then settle into a new status quo instead of carrying the story all the way to its conclusion (Desctruction of the Warhammaer Fantasy world and the discontinuation of the game), then they can preserve the setting.
Instead of the old Status Quo being "11th hour before midnight with the Imperium of Man on the brink of collapse and one final apocalyptic war ", the new Status Quo is "the clock has struck midnight, the collapse of the Imperium and the final apocalyptic war has begun".
That final apocalyptic battle is now the setting. So long as they don't take it through to its final conclusion, the setting still exists.
Like, in all honestly, there are a lot of great stories to explore with the return of one (AND ONLY ONE) primarch.
Will he kneel to the High Lords of Terra? Will he get a seat with them?
How will the church react? What tensions will appear in the imperium?
Will he like what the Ultramarines have become?
Will he be accepted or deemed a heretic by the inquisition?
is the galaxy just too big for even a primarch to have any influence on at all?Will he come back, but nothing change because the wheels are just too big to get moving again at this point, no matter what
Is it ALL futile?
but I have pretty sure GW has no interest in pausing the universe here for a few years so we can explore those questions in the same, slow careful detail and examination we've xplored things so far.
instead it'll just be on to the next big shiny thing!
I feel they are doing this just to make a splash, so we need a BIG THING, rather than, we had a great idea for a story, that will also by chance, make a splash.
This should have been done over an entire year, with each book every 4 months.
Giving people a chance to examine each step, play out battles in each step.
Right now its just a whir of colours and GW yelling CONSUME.
Roleplayer wrote: Like, in all honestly, there are a lot of great stories to explore with the return of one (AND ONLY ONE) primarch.
Will he kneel to the High Lords of Terra? Will he get a seat with them? How will the cbhurch react? What tensions will appear in the imperium/ Will he like what the Ultramarines have become? Will he be accepted or deemed a heretic by the inquisition? is the galaxy just too big for even a primarch to have any influence on at all?Will he come back, but nothing change because the wheels are just too big to get moving again at this point, no matter what Is it ALL futile?
but I have pretty sure GW has no interest in pausing the universe here for a few years so we can explore those questions in the same, slow careful detail and examination we've xplored things so far.
instead it'll just be on to the next big shiny thing! I feel they are doig this just to make a splash, so we need a BIG THING, rather than, we had a great idea for a story, that will also by chance, make a splash.
I'm sorry, but what rock have you been living under for the last decade? This is GW's MO, its nothing new. It was inevitable that they'd one day move on to Primarchs.
Though I do agree that the fluff of this is probably sub-par. They should be letting Black Library's best writers have at it. I want to read an entire NOVEL about Guilemans return, not just a Codex subsection.
(I've butchered Guilemans name haven't I? This is why I call him Girlyman, much easier to spell. )
What a load of nonsense, there are tens of thousands of people who own a bunch of marines and a few rhinos. Just because you can spend a bunch of money on some FW stuff doesn't mean you can't also spend a similar amount on GW main, and nobody says you have to play 30K at 5000 points.
Roleplayer wrote: As someone who had played 40k for 25 years, it certainly was not inevitable.
And I don't see the need for it, when we can all play 30k for the Age of Heroes.
You can still play games set in 40k pre-end times, it's not like they are rewriting the last 10,000 years.
That's what all my friends said about the Warhammer World when End Times hit.
But all it did was fracture the community. Now about 30% still play in Sigmar (which I don't, as whats the point without the story?) and the rest gave up the hobby, since the story they liked was trashed.
I imagine the same thing will happen with 40k. Not that I really play anymore (maybe 2 games in 3 years), but I was still painting 1-2 full armies a year.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But, I hope that those who are keen enjoy it.
You've clearly won this battle, and its happening.
Time for the old guard to bow out, make way for a younger generation, and find other hobbies
That's what all my friends said about the Warhammer World when End Times hit.
But all it did was fracture the community. Now about 30% still play in Sigmar (which I don't, as whats the point without the story?) and the rest gave up the hobby, since the story they liked was trashed.
I imagine the same thing will happen with 40k. Not that I really play anymore (maybe 2 games in 3 years), but I was still painting 1-2 full armies a year.
Then people should catch up with the AoS story thus far, because otherwise they're just making blind judgments. And i'd wager more people left because they didn't like the rules than those who left because of the story.
Roleplayer wrote: But all it did was fracture the community. Now about 30% still play in Sigmar (which I don't, as whats the point without the story?) and the rest gave up the hobby, since the story they liked was trashed.
Why can't that 70% have simply continued to play older Editions with each other?
Roleplayer wrote: But all it did was fracture the community. Now about 30% still play in Sigmar (which I don't, as whats the point without the story?) and the rest gave up the hobby, since the story they liked was trashed.
Why can't that 70% have simply continued to play older Editions with each other?
Because the community is ridiculously fickle. Everyone likes to pretend they have it cornered as to why their system is great, but blowing up WHFB revealed just how much the community disagreed already.
Daedalus81 wrote: Good lord I can't take the histrionics. Does anyone have some story leaks to discuss?
I couldn't agree more. There are so many people investing such effort to whine in this thread. All I want to do is read about some fluff or rules, not listen to some conservative players trying to hold onto the way they want the game to be for the past few days. It's, frankly, insufferable. Contributes absolutely nothing
In any case, I'd like to talk about some of the rules!
If you haven't watched the stream on Warhammer TV here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/126067508 or don't have a subscription, Guilliman seems like a beast, but you have to get him into combat. He moved a grand total of 12" for the entire duration of the game, killed Skarbrand, countless Bloodletters, and a Daemon Prince. He's SO slow.
They made a point to bring up that Cypher complements the Deny the Witch reroll that Guilliman has. It seems Cypher is getting some new rules!
They were pretty hush hush on points, Lord of War status, or anything of that nature.
That's what all my friends said about the Warhammer World when End Times hit.
But all it did was fracture the community. Now about 30% still play in Sigmar (which I don't, as whats the point without the story?) and the rest gave up the hobby, since the story they liked was trashed.
I imagine the same thing will happen with 40k. Not that I really play anymore (maybe 2 games in 3 years), but I was still painting 1-2 full armies a year.
Then people should catch up with the AoS story thus far, because otherwise they're just making blind judgments. And i'd wager more people left because they didn't like the rules than those who left because of the story.
I've read the Age of Sigmar story. I still liked the WHFB setting better and would rather they had put the AoS ruleset there. But that doesn't doesn't mean I can't enjoy the AoS setting and story for what it is, because at the end of the day things have changed and being perpetually upset about it won't do anything but ruin by enjoyment.
I have deleted a number of off-topic posts. Please take the debate about whether GW should push the "story" further to the 40k Background sub-forum, along with questions/speculation about story elements. Thanks!
A slow model that can't join units since he's a mc, costs 350 points, and all his command abilities only work within 12", which will quickly be out paced.
If he had been an extremely bulky infantry he could have been worth it, but MC killed him.
Unless he has IC and I missed it, the most he will do is die to a round of grav fire.
It wouldn't matter if he was an IC, since ICMCs can't join other units either.
A 12" radius is nothing to sneeze at - that's more than a 2 foot diameter circle of awesomesauce buffitude.
Yes, he's a touch slow, but not THAT slow - 6" +1d6+1 run distance (yes, you give up shooting, but keeping your faster elements inside the bubble of buffitude is probably worth it) averages at around 10" a round.
Start him at the forefront of your assault, and even your faster elements won't get outside of his buff range for at least a round or two.
Also... not everyone has Grav, y'know. 2+/3++/5+++ at 6 wounds is definitely a tough nut to crack - even with Grav, that's not going to be easy to get through. I'm sure Martel has the mathhammer for Grav against exactly such a target (except with 5 wounds) memorized at this point.
Unusual Suspect wrote: It wouldn't matter if he was an IC, since ICMCs can't join other units either.
A 12" radius is nothing to sneeze at - that's more than a 2 foot diameter circle of awesomesauce buffitude.
Yes, he's a touch slow, but not THAT slow - 6" +1d6+1 run distance (yes, you give up shooting, but keeping your faster elements inside the bubble of buffitude is probably worth it) averages at around 10" a round.
Start him at the forefront of your assault, and even your faster elements won't get outside of his buff range for at least a round or two.
Also... not everyone has Grav, y'know. 2+/3++/5+++ at 6 wounds is definitely a tough nut to crack - even with Grav, that's not going to be easy to get through. I'm sure Martel has the mathhammer for Grav against exactly such a target (except with 5 wounds) memorized at this point.
that said no gulliman isn't gonna be able to win entire games by himself. and god I wish people would stop using that as the metre stick of if a units any good
I hope he can be run in any Armies of the Imperium kind of like Celestine and the others. Then I can play him without having to start an Ultramarines army.
Goobi2 wrote: By the tracker Atia is 100% But moving into a new crusade (a rally for the wavering Imperium) was gonna be the most likely next step anyway. The whole faction got Avatar of Khaine'd so much they were becoming as much of a joke as Abaddon. (In a fashion) With this regroup and push, they can seem like a legitimate space power, even though the odds are stacked against them.
Really wanna see those new Cypher rules, since Robby is D-Bait
The Crusade Rumor has been around more than a few weeks and reads something like this.
Guilliman goes to Terra and is upset with the Custodes and blames them for everything that has happened to keep the Emperor oblivious to how different the Galaxy is 10,000 later by himself. Guilliman confronts the Emperor and is given to him the Flaming Sword. Guilliman becomes de-facto Emperor and sends the Custodes away to start to start a new Crusade and Age of the Emperor.
She [i][u]is not first to the party on this rumor.
Seriously, what's wrong with you? That's not the first time you talk out of your ass. You are aware that the NDA for preview copies tells you when you are allowed to talk about that stuff? You are aware that this is not a rumour as it's backed up by one of said preview copies?
What had he expected to see he wondered? He had read the reports. His gene father had been kept alive through the artifice of the Golden Throne for over 10,000 years. The Primarch of the XIII had steeled himself for anything, but this rotted desiccated husk of a corpse could not have been the proud and radiant Emperor of all Mankind.
Roboute Guilliman shook with emotion, overcome by a grief he had felt only once before. He raised his hand slowly to touch his gene father’s face. In perfect unison, the 4 custodians flanking him directed their guardian spears at a unique and exposed weakness. A knee, an ankle, a shoulder and his outstretched hand. All meant to incapacitate and not kill him.
“Killing me now would be a mercy. I assure you.”
The Primarch knelt in front of his father. “Why do I still live? What more do you want from me? I gave everything I had to you, to them. Look what they’ve made of our dream. This bloated, rotting carcass of an empire is not driven by reason and hope, but by fear, hate and ignorance. Better that we had all burned in the fires of Horus’s ambition than lived to see this.”
It was at this exact moment, when the sword that rested at the Emperor’s seat burst into flames. Legends have given this mighty blade many titles but the Gladius Regis, the Sword of Kings is its one true name. Roboute Guilliman felt the white hot heat of its flames wash away his doubts, fears and despair. Like Lazarus of old, he felt the hope in his heart beat again. Grasping the blade in both hands and raising it to the sky, the Primarch of the XIII roared his defiance to a rapt audience:
“My father has given us this sign. Even now he fights for the salvation of us all. To the enemies of mankind, I say let them come. We will show them we will not go quietly into the night. We will show them the might of the Imperium. We will show them an Imperium resurgent! Are you with me? ”
…
A 3rd Farseer crystallised from the effort of bypassing the Imperial Palace’s many psychic wards. Even the brow of venerable Eldrad was tight with supreme effort.
“We now have our champion.”
Forgive the bad fanfic. I get it. Rise of the Primarch represents change and change can either be frightening or interesting. I prefer the more positive mindset. We can always complain about it later.
Not bad for some of the fanfic I've seen. It had me entertained. I say this will be a fun time for us all. Good job GW. Now make the first book after this devoted to Tyranids and I will put down more twenties than a depraved soul at a slaaneshi strip club.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Not bad for some of the fanfic I've seen. It had me entertained. I say this will be a fun time for us all. Good job GW. Now make the first book after this devoted to Tyranids and I will put down more twenties than a depraved soul at a slaaneshi strip club.
I would be extremely interested to see what they did with a Tyranid triumvirate!
On that note, with all the current ones being a single 'race' (human, eldar, space marine) do we know if future triumvirates (if there are any) will follow the same trend?
I am kind of dissapointed that the Nids have had no part to play so far. My only hope is that there will be a future release of books that centre around a mass tyranid incursion.
I expect the Xenos species (Necron, Tau, Ork and Nid) will be able to make significant gains with the Imperium so distracted by Abaddon and his Crusade.
So we may not see them covered until the Storm is over.
daemonish wrote: I am kind of dissapointed that the Nids have had no part to play so far. My only hope is that there will be a future release of books that centre around a mass tyranid incursion.
In fairness Chaos has always been "The great enemy" (thats literally one of the nicknames for the faction) so I don't begrudge them getting center stage for a bit, I suspect, if GW takes the approuch I'm expecting we'll see the 'nids featured later on,
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Not bad for some of the fanfic I've seen. It had me entertained. I say this will be a fun time for us all. Good job GW. Now make the first book after this devoted to Tyranids and I will put down more twenties than a depraved soul at a slaaneshi strip club.
I would be extremely interested to see what they did with a Tyranid triumvirate!
On that note, with all the current ones being a single 'race' (human, eldar, space marine) do we know if future triumvirates (if there are any) will follow the same trend?
honestly, I don't think the 'nids would work for a trimvurate. as the triumvirates are very character driven, which is something Tyranids aren't. (and the few 'nid characters we have have always felt somewhat clumsy to me) I'm kinda hoping GW does a campaign book ala wraith of magnus, or two, followed by a trilogy of books that handles the larger picture. and I think 'nids would be better used in a more focused campaign. Perhaps "the defence of Baal"? that brings out some fantastic new tyranid units as the 'nids adapt to changes in tatics and new units deployed...
Maybe in the grand finalle they can consume Sanguintis' biomass and use his genetic material as the basis for some monsterous 'nid that can be the "tyranid answer to primarchs"
BrianDavion wrote: In fairness Chaos has always been "The great enemy" (thats literally one of the nicknames for the faction) so I don't begrudge them getting center stage for a bit...
Their moment on 'centre stage' resulted in 8 new Imperial miniatures and 3 new Eldar miniatures, a whole new Eldar faction and a Primarch returning from the dead.
Meanwhile, these, these and these remain on sale with no updates.
BrianDavion wrote: In fairness Chaos has always been "The great enemy" (thats literally one of the nicknames for the faction) so I don't begrudge them getting center stage for a bit...
Their moment on 'centre stage' resulted in 8 new Imperial miniatures and 3 new Eldar miniatures, a whole new Eldar faction and a Primarch returning from the dead.
Meanwhile, these, these and these remain on sale with no updates.
consider the Tzeetch stuff they just got. I'd not be suprised to see more stuff, keep in mind that this is 40ks anniversry and they're just getting started. I don't wanna speculate too much here (at the risk of generating rumors) but I'd be very suprised if we didn't see new stuff for chaos soon. (especially as the mutilator and obliterators are an obvious canidate for a duel kit)
Crazyterran wrote: A slow model that can't join units since he's a mc, costs 350 points, and all his command abilities only work within 12", which will quickly be out paced.
If he had been an extremely bulky infantry he could have been worth it, but MC killed him.
Unless he has IC and I missed it, the most he will do is die to a round of grav fire.
You strange as itmay sound I think GW wants the old vets of the hobby out partially. On forums you often hear people talking they've been in the hobby for decades and hate all the new stuff.
These people with huge old collections hang around and don't buy that much from GW. People with almost complete collections .they do still play almost scaring new people away from GW and thereby costing them money. This was a real hindrance to old warhammer fantasy 8th edition where that blolb of 50 core models was basicly invisible if you were running varied armies.
So I don't mind shake-ups they make certain young people can come in and get a clue what's going on without feeling like they missed 20+ years and have to catch up.
Also RG rules seem good enough to me. I really hate powercreep so that means he doesn't have to massively upset the meta. Just be fun to play with and against and it seems he does provide that.
From what i´ve heard Roboute is 350-360.
Maybe in the 8th edition MC can join squads?
And the one guy from twitch confirmed that in GS 3 is at least one formation to field the fallen.
Furthermore he said also something about cypher and that he shot someone in the eye, but i didn´t really get the context to this phrase.
I for one love to see an end of the situation of the Imperium, i really hate that stupid church-setting.
But regardless for that aren´t the rules way more important?
In the twitch stream he hadn´t to move around, the demons deep striked right to his feet.
Earth127 wrote: You strange as itmay sound I think GW wants the old vets of the hobby out partially. On forums you often hear people talking they've been in the hobby for decades and hate all the new stuff.
These people with huge old collections hang around and don't buy that much from GW. People with almost complete collections .they do still play almost scaring new people away from GW and thereby costing them money. This was a real hindrance to old warhammer fantasy 8th edition where that blolb of 50 core models was basicly invisible if you were running varied armies.
So I don't mind shake-ups they make certain young people can come in and get a clue what's going on without feeling like they missed 20+ years and have to catch up.
Also RG rules seem good enough to me. I really hate powercreep so that means he doesn't have to massively upset the meta. Just be fun to play with and against and it seems he does provide that.
No, they don't want people out. Veterans generally hate the new stuff because it doesn't fit their still picture they liked. Happened with 6th edition's change in WHFB, and went as far as spawning KoW with the movement from 7th to 8th.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crazyterran wrote: A slow model that can't join units since he's a mc, costs 350 points, and all his command abilities only work within 12", which will quickly be out paced.
If he had been an extremely bulky infantry he could have been worth it, but MC killed him.
Unless he has IC and I missed it, the most he will do is die to a round of grav fire.
You'd need 18 grav-wounds (not accounting for to-hit and to wound further narrowing that margin) in order to kill guilliman. That's a pretty darned good resilience there, more son when not all armies are codex: grav-spam
Use electrodisplacement or invisibility or that geomancy power, you've got librarius conclaves for a reason. Set him for the usage. He's perfectly usable but he's not point and click, that's a given.
People should like a universe/story/setting by his owns merits. If they like another thing, they shouldn't whant that setting to change. They should look for another universe.
For example: I love the grimdark and dystopian Imperium of W40k. But maybe someday I grow bored of all this Grimdark.
Should I want the Imperium to change to satisfy my new tastes?
No.
I should look for another universe: If I'm bored of all this Grimdark, maybe I want to chek out Star Trek and his more Utopian universe.
And then, when I grow bored of Star Trek, I can go back to W40K, because it remained pure grimdark.
Variety its the sauce of life.
If all the things we like were the same, what a boring life to live!
PD: And to not go much off-topic. These Fallen are totally photoshoped. I saw them yesterdey in the NZ site and laugh a big.
Someone knows if the new army sets with Pictures firmed by Jess Goodwin offer some discount? or only discount on clicks?
Fluff is eternal? Then how come Dark Angels are green and not black like in Rouge Trader? How come we have Primarchs? How come we have 30K? We had none of that in Rogue Trader.
I guess people are having selective memory of what fluff they want or are thinking about.
Nice quote snipe there, you could have actually caught on what I meant if you'd actually read the whole phrase and examples. Even when speaking of a setting changes into said setting will cause uproar, like the changes I've mentioned. But hey, keep missing the point please.
Now let's move along and go for the actual point of the thread.
After doing a bit of math, guilliman, without resurrecting, could tank something along the ballpark of 43 grav shots if everything went according to averages. When playing against eldar he'd take 170 shots from scatterlaser, which is roughly a 1000pts of scatterbikes. Pretty darn good resilience, if you ask me.
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Galas wrote: Its not exactly difference in opinion.
People should like a universe/story/setting by his owns merits. If they like another thing, they shouldn't whant that setting to change. They should look for another universe.
For example: I love the grimdark and dystopian Imperium of W40k. But maybe someday I grow bored of all this Grimdark.
Should I want the Imperium to change to satisfy my new tastes?
No.
You're describing the fans' take on the tau... Except the Should ended up in a yes. Much to my chargrin.
Galas wrote: Its not exactly difference in opinion.
People should like a universe/story/setting by his owns merits. If they like another thing, they shouldn't whant that setting to change. They should look for another universe.
For example: I love the grimdark and dystopian Imperium of W40k. But maybe someday I grow bored of all this Grimdark.
Should I want the Imperium to change to satisfy my new tastes?
No.
I should look for another universe: If I'm bored of all this Grimdark, maybe I want to chek out Star Trek and his more Utopian universe.
And then, when I grow bored of Star Trek, I can go back to W40K, because it remained pure grimdark.
Variety its the sauce of life.
This. I love both 40K and Star Trek. But I don't want 40K to be optimistic or Star Trek to be grimdark.
You're describing the fans' take on the tau... Except the Should ended up in a yes. Much to my chargrin.
Well, its not exactly the same adding new things to the setting that change stablised things of the setting. But yes I understand your point. I'm in the little crown that like the more Utopian and light-heart Tau that the new Orwellian type. They offered a contrast, the new motivated race condemmed to die horribly. But "urgh durp anime urgh weaboos urgh durp not enough skulls" and all that.
I'm actually not bother by all this changes, don't mind me. If 40k change to much it doesn't erases all the previous lore, as I still roleplay and game in the Old World and Age of Sigmar. As I say earlier, variety its the key.
I was just answering the point of fans of a universe that want that the things in that universe change erasing what they make them unique.
Maybe I like better that Rohan didn't use horses and were a full on foot army, living in a anarco-comunal society but... well that its not Rohan anymore.
And... back on topic. It is confirmed that we are gonna had another trilogy or another two? Or its 8th edition right of the corner?
Hmm. I assumed this is how it was with the previous books, am I wrong? (Maybe I am...)
One could assume that the purpose of review copies would be to make it possible there to be reviews when the preorders go up, so that people could make somewhat informed decision about ordering.
It's called difference in opinion, but I guess that in order to be a fan you need to sign an oath of love for a very strict set of tastes.
One more thing about this. I'm sure it is possible for different fans of like different facets of the setting, but if you dislike the core aspects, then it makes me wonder why you like the thing in the first place. I would say that Imperium being a rather theocratic is one of the most important defining features of the setting. It is a bit like saying that you like Star Wars, but just wish they'd get rid of that Force nonsense.
They really shouldn't, as the dakka Flyrant is an infinitely stronger unit.
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Guilliman being a MC has pretty much doomed him to being mediocre at best on the tabletop. The Avatar is a 6" move beatstick force multiplier, and no one takes him. Know why? Good. Those are the same reasons why no ones taking Gulliman outside of fluffy narrative games.
Galas wrote: Its not exactly difference in opinion.
People should like a universe/story/setting by his owns merits. If they like another thing, they shouldn't whant that setting to change. They should look for another universe.
For example: I love the grimdark and dystopian Imperium of W40k. But maybe someday I grow bored of all this Grimdark.
Should I want the Imperium to change to satisfy my new tastes?
No.
I should look for another universe: If I'm bored of all this Grimdark, maybe I want to chek out Star Trek and his more Utopian universe.
And then, when I grow bored of Star Trek, I can go back to W40K, because it remained pure grimdark.
Variety its the sauce of life.
This. I love both 40K and Star Trek. But I don't want 40K to be optimistic or Star Trek to be grimdark.
The problem is that over the years, 40K has ramped the grimdark up to ridiculous levels. When that happens, you don't have "grimdark". Instead, you have "GRIMDERP".
Grimdark is fine. But it's gotten to the point where it's time, in my opinion, to trim it back a bit and offer a counter-balance to all the grimdark.. But don't tell that to the average neckbeard, whose very soul would be crushed without the steady I.V. drip of GRIMDARK and METHUL. One has to just look at the reaction to the Tau to see the point I'm making. Neckbeards made a major fuss over the presence of a genuinely optimistic and "decent" faction in their setting of TOTAL GLOOM AND DOOM, until they grimdarked the Tau by turning the Ethereal Caste into moustache-twirling, Saturday mourning cartoon villains, who sterilize entire populations and kill their own troops en-mass for seeing something that runs counter to their party line. Combined with the aggressive wars of expansion, all this adds up to this key fact: The Tau Empire has been GRIMDERPED into what is essentially "Imperium Lite".
And the potency of GRIMDERP was back up to the level where neckbeards didn't go into withdrawl.
The whole gimmick of "One Minute To Midnight" is getting stale. It's time for the clock to chime and a glorious new age of war on a massive scale to begin. Entropy has reached the critical point for chaos to run rampant for a bit, and for the cycle of Order to rise from the ashes: A glorious new age for the Imperium of Man, with Rowboat Gorillaman banning stupid pills among the Imperium's ruling elites, and little bit of hope and common sense to balance out the grimdark, achieving equilibrium.
Of course, that is just my opinion. Others will differ.
They really shouldn't, as the dakka Flyrant is an infinitely stronger unit.
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Guilliman being a MC has pretty much doomed him to being mediocre at best on the tabletop. The Avatar is a 6" move beatstick force multiplier, and no one takes him. Know why? Good. Those are the same reasons why no ones taking Gulliman outside of fluffy narrative games.
I don't think you can really compare Guilliman to the 3+/5++ Avatar with no FNP or ability to regen wounds.
They really shouldn't, as the dakka Flyrant is an infinitely stronger unit.
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Guilliman being a MC has pretty much doomed him to being mediocre at best on the tabletop. The Avatar is a 6" move beatstick force multiplier, and no one takes him. Know why? Good. Those are the same reasons why no ones taking Gulliman outside of fluffy narrative games.
They also don't take the avatar because he's a LOW competing against a Wraithknight. And GC>MC but there's also the fact that eldar don't have the tools to make slow units go fast (like marines do).
daemonish wrote: So the book and trimutive are up for preorder, what is coming out over the rest of the month? Any one pick up the new WD?
There is only the BoP boxes for the marines and Terminators which will be available to pre-order next week, after that there is nothing in the WD so I imagine we will see the AoS Duradin after that.
Earth127 wrote: You strange as itmay sound I think GW wants the old vets of the hobby out partially. On forums you often hear people talking they've been in the hobby for decades and hate all the new stuff.
These people with huge old collections hang around and don't buy that much from GW. People with almost complete collections .they do still play almost scaring new people away from GW and thereby costing them money. This was a real hindrance to old warhammer fantasy 8th edition where that blolb of 50 core models was basicly invisible if you were running varied armies.
So I don't mind shake-ups they make certain young people can come in and get a clue what's going on without feeling like they missed 20+ years and have to catch up.
Also RG rules seem good enough to me. I really hate powercreep so that means he doesn't have to massively upset the meta. Just be fun to play with and against and it seems he does provide that.
No, they don't want people out. Veterans generally hate the new stuff because it doesn't fit their still picture they liked. Happened with 6th edition's change in WHFB, and went as far as spawning KoW with the movement from 7th to 8th.
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Crazyterran wrote: A slow model that can't join units since he's a mc, costs 350 points, and all his command abilities only work within 12", which will quickly be out paced.
If he had been an extremely bulky infantry he could have been worth it, but MC killed him.
Unless he has IC and I missed it, the most he will do is die to a round of grav fire.
You'd need 18 grav-wounds (not accounting for to-hit and to wound further narrowing that margin) in order to kill guilliman. That's a pretty darned good resilience there, more son when not all armies are codex: grav-spam
Use electrodisplacement or invisibility or that geomancy power, you've got librarius conclaves for a reason. Set him for the usage. He's perfectly usable but he's not point and click, that's a given.
No you would need 27 grav wounds discounting rolls to hit and wound since he has FNP. The guy will be a serious pain in the ass the kill in a turn.
On a side note, thank GOD he can't join other characters, this would have made super friends even more brutal. As if we need this guy joined to a Tigurius conclave and a ferw thunder wolf lords/wulfen/whatever the feth broken combo you are in the mood for.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The people saying this guy isn't good are insane to me. As if it were such a burden to field a Tigurius conclave for electro displacement, next to take a 35 point FA drop pod with a 10 pt servitor inside and laugh as you can now pinpoint switch RG anywhere on the table and then assault. But wait it gets more hilarious, people think being a MC is somehow a problem, until you realize he can now choose to smash attack for that one single casualty in order to remain locked on the turn he assaults ensuring his safety fomr shooting then the next turn he can do that derpy whirlwind attack wiping the unit.
Crazyterran wrote: Electro displacement only targets who the Psyker and his unit will trade with.
Maybe if you actually knew Fulimantion's rules you'd have something to argue about him surviving to make combat.
Magnetokinesis can be targeted on another unit, the Levitation copy in Fulmination. It doesn't let you charge.
OK, so you just put one libraian from the conclave with the trade unit.... But keep your head in the sand none the less. I remember when Wraith knights were a garbage unit until a month later when everyone ran them.
Crazyterran wrote: Electro displacement only targets who the Psyker and his unit will trade with.
Maybe if you actually knew Fulimantion's rules you'd have something to argue about him surviving to make combat.
Magnetokinesis can be targeted on another unit, the Levitation copy in Fulmination. It doesn't let you charge.
Drop-pod that conclave and switch them with guilliman. Done. Maybe if you actually thought on how to use the spell you'd have something to argue (see, people can be unnecessarily snarky).
Bobthehero wrote: Who knows, it'll be my first GW purchase in a while, incidentally, eh
Get sucked into the plastic crack again. Out of curiosity. Has anyone made any leaks on voldus rules? Mini looks pretty and all but I'd like to know how well he measures up.
E.g., the point being it's meant to be high medieval, to evoke feelings of the Dark Ages.
By "stupid church-setting" i meant that tech isn´t seen as such but as wondrous artifacts.
Putting sigils on Power armor and other "relics", chanting while doing weapon maintance... Tech should be seen as what it is, lifeless, soulless tools.
Simply an enlightenend Imperium as it was meant by the Emperor.
I do think even with that and maybe an "alliance" with the eldar, the enemies of Mankind are many, especially now with chaos forces having swept cadia away, the setting would far away from being Star Trek-like.
They really shouldn't, as the dakka Flyrant is an infinitely stronger unit.
---------------------
Guilliman being a MC has pretty much doomed him to being mediocre at best on the tabletop. The Avatar is a 6" move beatstick force multiplier, and no one takes him. Know why? Good. Those are the same reasons why no ones taking Gulliman outside of fluffy narrative games.
Now think of my non-flying Tyrant option, my Carnifexes, any other MCs...
Also, "fluffy narrative games" are not inherently bad. If they're not how you choose to play, fine, but, ya know... don't tell other people how they're allowed to have fun. :-)
Bobthehero wrote: Who knows, it'll be my first GW purchase in a while, incidentally, eh
Get sucked into the plastic crack again.
Sorta, although none of the new release are what I am getting, and there's a fair bit of resin involved. Its just been a while since I built something and I figured what little things I could change in my army.
Roleplayer wrote: Like, in all honestly, there are a lot of great stories to explore with the return of one (AND ONLY ONE) primarch.
Will he kneel to the High Lords of Terra? Will he get a seat with them?
How will the church react? What tensions will appear in the imperium?
Will he like what the Ultramarines have become?
Will he be accepted or deemed a heretic by the inquisition?
is the galaxy just too big for even a primarch to have any influence on at all?Will he come back, but nothing change because the wheels are just too big to get moving again at this point, no matter what
Is it ALL futile?
but I have pretty sure GW has no interest in pausing the universe here for a few years so we can explore those questions in the same, slow careful detail and examination we've xplored things so far.
instead it'll just be on to the next big shiny thing!
Longtime lurker, the desire to say that this is the best thing I have read on the matter made me make an account.
There are advantages and disadvantages to bringing him back but if done well I do not think it has to compromise the central notions and depth of 40K. I could even imagine him becoming emperor and launching another great crusade without compromising what makes 40K good. However, (as I understand it) being awoken by an eldar witch whilst Ultramar is under attack, with RG literally punching a Black Legion terminator as one of his first actions... this says to me a superhero approach rather than careful exploration of complexities of the Imperium approach will be taken.
TBH, I disliked Guilliman when I first saw him, but it is slightly growing on me. I think I'd still shave off a lot of the filigree (keeping the icons), and I'd probably change the OTT gold pauldron - but I'm liking it more each time I see it. Still doesn't compare with FW's version, but I think that's to be expected due to different sculptors and plastic tech limitations. Lore wise, I'm both a little bit concerned, curious and cautiously interested all in one go. This could be the start of something very good, but also the start of a slippery slope. We shall have to wait and see...
E.g., the point being it's meant to be high medieval, to evoke feelings of the Dark Ages.
By "stupid church-setting" i meant that tech isn´t seen as such but as wondrous artifacts.
Putting sigils on Power armor and other "relics", chanting while doing weapon maintance... Tech should be seen as what it is, lifeless, soulless tools.
Simply an enlightenend Imperium as it was meant by the Emperor.
I do think even with that and maybe an "alliance" with the eldar, the enemies of Mankind are many, especially now with chaos forces having swept cadia away, the setting would far away from being Star Trek-like.
They are preying for a reason a necron God forget their true names think he was dragon something lives in the heart of Mars. They prey to the meachines God which they may get their tech from him.
Altho when necron became space tomb kings they may have changed it. There was a story of a assassin from the emperium going to attack a traitor government official she snuck in pulled her cyber weapon thing lunged at him. He grabbed her by the throat and said do you not love when your children come home with a gift and then absorbed her blade and killed her. So old lore had some marine tech necron made or inspired atleast.
Does anybody else think the fallen weren't even painted? They look photoshopped. They're in the exact same pose as the company vets.
I think Girlyman looks kind of... bad. Admittedly I do mainly play Horus Heresy. I think Valdor would put up a good fight.
Wow, just checked the webstore, haha wow those are certainly some 'shopped Marines!!! My bad. The WD ones were different and unique.
Actually the Fallen ARENT Photoshopped
Look at the DA Fallen and the Picture of the Box
They guy on the Box with a Shield now has a Storm bolter (he had a Plasma Pistol)
The Guy with the Robed Dark Angel Figure on his Backpack now has a Plasma Gun...
Does anybody else think the fallen weren't even painted? They look photoshopped. They're in the exact same pose as the company vets.
I think Girlyman looks kind of... bad. Admittedly I do mainly play Horus Heresy. I think Valdor would put up a good fight.
Wow, just checked the webstore, haha wow those are certainly some 'shopped Marines!!! My bad. The WD ones were different and unique.
Actually the Fallen ARENT Photoshopped
Look at the DA Fallen and the Picture of the Box
They guy on the Box with a Shield now has a Storm bolter (he had a Plasma Pistol)
The Guy with the Robed Dark Angel Figure on his Backpack now has a Plasma Gun...
E.g., the point being it's meant to be high medieval, to evoke feelings of the Dark Ages.
By "stupid church-setting" i meant that tech isn´t seen as such but as wondrous artifacts.
Putting sigils on Power armor and other "relics", chanting while doing weapon maintance... Tech should be seen as what it is, lifeless, soulless tools.
Simply an enlightenend Imperium as it was meant by the Emperor.
I do think even with that and maybe an "alliance" with the eldar, the enemies of Mankind are many, especially now with chaos forces having swept cadia away, the setting would far away from being Star Trek-like.
Why do you even play 40k if you hate the core stylistic themes of it?
Galas wrote: Its not exactly difference in opinion.
People should like a universe/story/setting by his owns merits. If they like another thing, they shouldn't whant that setting to change. They should look for another universe.
For example: I love the grimdark and dystopian Imperium of W40k. But maybe someday I grow bored of all this Grimdark. Should I want the Imperium to change to satisfy my new tastes? No.
I should look for another universe: If I'm bored of all this Grimdark, maybe I want to chek out Star Trek and his more Utopian universe.
And then, when I grow bored of Star Trek, I can go back to W40K, because it remained pure grimdark.
Variety its the sauce of life.
This. I love both 40K and Star Trek. But I don't want 40K to be optimistic or Star Trek to be grimdark.
Star Trek did become grim mark. (well grimark compared to how Star Trek is usually rainbow and unicorns.) We got the awesome DS9. Sometimes change is good. In the case of Star Trek though it is usually season 3 when they hit the mark. So change takes time. DS9 is a great example. Made Star Trek different and while slow at first and a few speed bumps became awesome.
Star Trek did become grim mark. (well grimark compared to how Star Trek is usually rainbow and unicorns.) We got the awesome DS9. Sometimes change is good. In the case of Star Trek though it is usually season 3 when they hit the mark. So change takes time. DS9 is a great example. Made Star Trek different and while slow at first and a few speed bumps became awesome.
I didn't like DS9... (Well, I liked some of it. But not the darker themes.)
Bobthehero wrote: Who knows, it'll be my first GW purchase in a while, incidentally, eh
Get sucked into the plastic crack again.
Sorta, although none of the new release are what I am getting, and there's a fair bit of resin involved. Its just been a while since I built something and I figured what little things I could change in my army.
I certainly hope that those changes involve not mounting looted IG bits onto a pencilcase and calling it artillery anymore
Firefox1 wrote: By "stupid church-setting" i meant that tech isn´t seen as such but as wondrous artifacts.
Putting sigils on Power armor and other "relics", chanting while doing weapon maintance... Tech should be seen as what it is, lifeless, soulless tools.
Simply an enlightenend Imperium as it was meant by the Emperor.
Removing the Machine Cult, one of the few genuinely unique aspects of the setting, would be worse than all the Draigos, Necron bros and slaughtered Soraita combined.
E.g., the point being it's meant to be high medieval, to evoke feelings of the Dark Ages.
Gothic ain't the dark ages, hell, romanic style barely even qualifies as dark ages, which are the 5th to 10th centuries AD.
Though it seems we may be headed to a rennaisance/straight oughta the baroque.
Medieval scholar here. The "Gothic movement" in art and literature that you are referring to found much of its expression in Medieval aesthetics and themes. See: Coleridge's "Christabel," Goethe's "Faust," the Pre-Raphaelite movement in England, and of course Walpole's novel "The Castle of Otranto" which helped to usher in the Gothic fiction genre.
While you and anyone else who wishes to is of course welcome to use the term "Dark Ages," Medieval scholars generally eschew it for many reasons.
I think the point Lord Kragan was making was very much as you have stated - that Gothic isn't 'Dark Ages'. However, to use the expression Dark Ages isn't necessarily wrong. It's often used nowadays in a less pejorative manner than it used to be (In light of the growing awareness of the rich culture and society that flourished between the fall of the Roman Empire and the beginning of the Mediaeval Era, particularly, but not limited to, Saxon and Brythonic Britain), but it's still appropriate to use if one is referring to the lack of 'light' shed upon those times. It is indeed dark to us, because we know very little about that period of history in comparison to later and earlier times. Of course, it is gradually becoming less and less dark as academic studies advance.
In the case of 40k, it is very much appropriate considering the paucity of accumulated knowledge in the IoM. They may rightly look upon their own times as a Dark Age as they truly know nothing compared to their ancestors. Interestingly, the Dark Age of Technology retains it's pejorative implications due to the fell nature of the technology invented then - the Men of Iron being a prime example.
IF the Emperor couldn't stop his people from worshipping him, I doubt Guilliman will. There were a lot of rumours on Ultramar seceding from the imperium a few years ago. Maybe this is the event that will set that in motion.
Ruin wrote: That's the spirit. Call everyone who disagrees with you a "neckbeard". As if you're exactly the epitome of cool for loving what GW are doing to 40k...
"Neckbeard" is a common term for hard-core tabletop gamers, particularly of fantasy or darker settings. It is not a pejorative. Much like Napoleonic term "grognard" as it applies to gaming, except most neckbeards are less resistant to change than grognards.
@oldmanraven3025 - Except, Grognard was a pejorative nickname - because the Old Guard were the only formation that were permitted to openly complain to the Emperor, the other units were mildly resentful, as they could only expect harsh punishment if they dared. Indeed, it still is used pejoratively in the French political sphere, and more widely the term Old Guard usually refers to a person who staunchly resists change or cleaves to outdated notions. The more you know indeed...
I doubt calling anybody a 'neckbeard' is particularly flattering - the more so if you're part of the female element who enjoy this hobby.
Ruin wrote: That's the spirit. Call everyone who disagrees with you a "neckbeard". As if you're exactly the epitome of cool for loving what GW are doing to 40k...
"Neckbeard" is a common term for hard-core tabletop gamers, particularly of fantasy or darker settings. It is not a pejorative. Much like Napoleonic term "grognard" as it applies to gaming, except most neckbeards are less resistant to change than grognards.
Themoaryouknow.jpg
Sigh...
"Neckbeard" does not mean that, in fact it is like the nerd-culture equivalent of "hipster". It has become so bastardised through misuse it now means nothing. You were using it to make yourself out to be high up there in the geek hierarchy, not being bothered by the changes that are riling up these so-called "neckbeards". Yes, how dare someone dislike how a company is dragging their flagship game's last remaining bastion of good stuff (to many people) through the dirt.
Nope. Sucks to be you! How dare you have feelings for such things you fething neckbeard. Go back to eating those doritos and washing it down with lashings of mountain dew you fething peasant. Suck it up loser, this is modern 40k background! Where Necrons are bros with BA and GKs make hats from SoB!
Warpig1815 wrote: but it's still appropriate to use if one is referring to the lack of 'light' shed upon those times. It is indeed dark to us, because we know very little about that period of history in comparison to later and earlier times. Of course, it is gradually becoming less and less dark as academic studies advance.
Speaking in terms of manuscript evidence (my field), we have far more from the Early Middle Ages than we do from Ancient times (say pre-476 AD). Many of our classical sources (and most of our best) come down to us through early Medieval manuscripts (for example, Venetus A).
Warpig1815 wrote: @oldmanraven3025 - Except, Grognard was a pejorative nickname - because the Old Guard were the only formation that were permitted to openly complain to the Emperor, the other units were mildly resentful, as they could only expect harsh punishment if they dared. Indeed, it still is used pejoratively in the French political sphere, and more widely the term Old Guard usually refers to a person who staunchly resists change or cleaves to outdated notions. The more you know indeed...
I doubt calling anybody a 'neckbeard' is particularly flattering - the more so if you're part of the female element who enjoy this hobby.
Well, I was talking about gaming. Among Battletech players back in the day, the "3025 Only" players who hated anything Clan/Post-Helm related were referred to as "grognards" . The same for some D&D players I knew back in the 90's who had bouts of nostalgia for early 80's D&D.
Well, calling girls neckbeards isn't a good move. As a card-carrying member of the "Society of Neckbearded Grognards", I carry such labels as a mark of pride.
@Dr_Jim_J_Jimmy - I have to agree with davou that that's a conversation that is way OT for this thread - I was merely using it as an illustration that Dark Ages, in whatever form it's intended, is in fact apt for 40k. I'd be more than happy to discuss it in another thread however.
So.... to anyone who has read the Gathering Storm Part 1.
Does Be'lakor have an ability to teleport himself anywhere he wants irrespective of wards, litanies and such?
I mean not spoiling anything here, but the whole attack on the Phalanx being a two-page spread just seemed rushed and badly explained. It could have been a nice short story by itself.
from the email sent out by GW about this, Gathering Storm three will have "rules for adding fallen dark angels to your Imperium or chaos forces" thought that might be relevant for CSM players
Personally, seeing the setting moving in any meaningful way is actually very exciting. I started playing 40k and became familiar with the universe at the twilight of second edition/beginning of 3rd edition (Never played any games till well after 3rd edition started however.).
Having seen the universe stagnant for so long irked me, but I appreciated that it was a setting more than a story.
That said, progress needs to happen to keep things interesting. I'm excited to see what the rest of 2017 brings with it and hope for more awesome models and stories in the coming months.
is who will have authority over the other Non-Ultramarines chapters....Roboute or their chapter master
for the blood angels, will Roboute supercede Dante
salamanders, will Roboute supercede Tu'shan
etc. etc. etc.
I'm sure that the Chapter Masters will retain their commands. What I suspect could happen is that the position of "Lord Commander of the Imperium " will be reinstated by the High Lords, and Gorillaman will get authority over the entirety of the Imperium's armed forces. The Chapter Masters will continue to command their Chapters in the field, but they'll answer to the Primarch.
well keep in mind space marine chapters are, IN THEORY, independant of even the Lord Commander, (the high lords simply put don't have the authority to give him command) that said I suspect it's mostly theoretical as the space marine chapters will happily do as Gulliman asks of them.
Davor wrote: Fluff is eternal? Then how come Dark Angels are green and not black like in Rouge Trader? How come we have Primarchs? How come we have 30K? We had none of that in Rogue Trader.
Because that was 40K at its inception. There was a mass rationalisation of the 40K setting at the start of 2nd Ed where they defined everything and threw out a lot of the weirder RT stuff.
Davor wrote: Fluff is eternal? Then how come Dark Angels are green and not black like in Rouge Trader? How come we have Primarchs? How come we have 30K? We had none of that in Rogue Trader.
If you haven't figured out that Rogue Trader fluff has been mostly dead since 1992... then I don't know what to tell you? Some parts of RT remained but they basically rebuilt the game and the fluff around a totally different set of ideas. Time to just let it go, imo.
LCotI is not a new position for RG and one he had when he wrote the Codex Astarte's.
I know, but that was not the original question. As noted, the Lord Commander technically has no authority over marines. Though in my book him originally assuming that position is proof enough that he was a hypocrite.
LCotI is not a new position for RG and one he had when he wrote the Codex Astarte's.
I know, but that was not the original question. As noted, the Lord Commander technically has no authority over marines. Though in my book him originally assuming that position is proof enough that he was a hypocrite.
Or the fact that what he wrote 10K years ago is now obsolete. When he wrote it there was a chance to rebuild the imperium the way it should have been done, but after all these years and all the high lords messing things up there needs to be a new way and he is the most qualified to fix what's wrong.
is who will have authority over the other Non-Ultramarines chapters....Roboute or their chapter master
for the blood angels, will Roboute supercede Dante
salamanders, will Roboute supercede Tu'shan
etc. etc. etc.
You've asked this question before, and gotten the answer before.
Each Chapter can be given a specific objective, (say, the Salamanders tasked to defend a Hive World) assuming they submit themselves to the defense of the Imperium / to the campaign. How they go about doing so is up to them, though.
BrianDavion wrote: from the email sent out by GW about this, Gathering Storm three will have "rules for adding fallen dark angels to your Imperium or chaos forces" thought that might be relevant for CSM players
There is already a formation from the existing Cypher dataslate allowing you to take a formation of Cypher and 1-3 units of Chosen (the formation is called Fallen Champions). They count as CSM faction, cannot take transports or Marks, and gain some useful special rules (like Infiltrate and ATSKNF). It looks like they may be adapting this to be able to run alongside Imperial forces as Battle Brothers instead of just Chaos, with new Fallen units instead of Chosen.
I just hope I can somehow run them alongside my Dark Angels; the current dataslate does not allow Cypher to be taken in any army that also contains Dark Angels.
ZergSmasher wrote: I just hope I can somehow run them alongside my Dark Angels; the current dataslate does not allow Cypher to be taken in any army that also contains Dark Angels.
Or at least a way to say "my DA are fallen for this game, getting all the standard DA rules except special characters".
Bolt shells and plasma blasts rain down from all sides as the Fallen Champions spring their ambush. Enemies reel in shock struggling to fight back against deadly attackers who already have them surrounded and trapped within their gunsights. As the cacophony of battle fills the air, Cypher ghosts through the crossfire, eliminating one enemy target after another with salvoes of pistol fire. The Fallen fight as a single force, maximising their firepower and discipline to the detriment of their enemies. Even they do not know Cypher’s dark secrets, but they understand enough to never risk failure or apparent weakness under his gaze.
In this bundle, you’ll receive the models necessary to field the Fallen Champions, a formation from The Gathering Storm: Rise of the Primarch led by Cypher, Lord of the Fallen. You’ll receive:
the Triumvirate of the Primarch; 3 heroic miniatures including
Roboute Guilliman – Primarch of the Ultramarines – clad in the Armour of Fate, adorned with Ultramarines and Imperial iconography and featuring a splendid ceremonial halo, he wields the Hand of Dominion and the Emperor’s Sword (yes, the Emperor’s Sword). Supplied with a sculpted 60mm round base, featuring a broken Imperial Eagle.
Cypher – Lord of the Fallen – bedecked in archaic, makeshift gear appropriate to his renegade nature, his armour is retrofitted with parts from a variety of patterns – each part telling a story. He’s armed with a modified plasma pistol, and carries a particularly interesting sword on his back… Supplied with a Citadel 32mm Round base.
Grand Master Voldus, Warden of the Librarius – clad in ornate terminator armour, bearing marks of the Grey Knights, he is armed with the Malleus Argyrum – an ancient Daemon hammer that acts as a conduit for his psychic energies – and a storm bolter. Supplied with a Citadel 40mm Round base;
a set of 10 Mark IV Space Marines, with an impressive selection of armaments including bolters, missile launcher, heavy bolter, chainswords, power swords, power fists, plasma pistols, lightning claw blades, combi flamer, melta and plasma guns, a melta bomb and a set of combat blades! These miniatures also include ammo packs, holstered bolt pistols and a selection of frag and krak grenades. Supplied with ten Citadel 32mm Round bases and a transfer sheet;
and a set of 5 Fallen, including an upgrade sprue to customise your unit. There are also plenty of spare components that can be used to convert your other multi-part plastic Space Marine squads into Fallen. These are supplied with 5 Citadel 25mm Round bases.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I see
Found some more info, VeteranNoob on B&C
veterannoob, on 05 Mar 2017 - 05:50 AM, said:
custodes, and well, just about everything in the universe cameo in the story (excellent for the fluff, btw, IMO) but rules section is heavy metal, 2 page color panel Fallen designs, Echoes and Cataclysms of Wars scenario rules, the triumverate individual and together, Fallen as faction but probably not the pages some may hope, GK and daemonic adversaries inline with this narrative better buffs, items, formation/decurion Ultramarines, some items and tactical objectives, warlord traits for UM...think that's about it.
I also like Forge the Narrative, Started a week after us (almost 4 years ago). Listened to their ep tonight.
and Ronin_cse quoting a podcast (Forge the Narrative)
Cypher is basically the same as he is now rules wise. He plays a big part in the story.
Fallen are their own faction now. Their unit is basically the same as DA vets with the same options. There's a formation that includes Cypher and 3 units of fallen
He can still be BB with armies of the imperium minus DA and Chaos Space Marines
They are being super vague about him and the fallen to avoid story spoilers
ronin_cse, on 04 Mar 2017 - 5:37 PM, said:
Fallen are their own faction now. Their unit is basically the same as DA vets with the same options. There's a formation that includes Cypher and 3 units of fallen
Ronin_cse - some of the other rules in the book (source: podcast)
Well I can only listen so fast!
There's a formation that includes Cato, honor guard, and a unit of sternguard or vanguard. Adds 1 to all their WS and BS and allows Guilliman to look out sir with models in the formation
The big detachment gives everything ob sec. Gives you more doctrines for ultra marine models. Sounds like it's just another version of the regular gladius. Also it includes relics for Ultramarines in the book. There is a Triumvirate formation of course but they didn't go over the rules for that
Warlord traits too, one allows you to seize on a 2+.
there's a cloak that gives IWnD and Eternal Warrior. There's a standard that allows a killed model to complete a shooting or combat attack before it is removed. 60 pts though
Spoiler:
Back to the rules (there was an interview in between). Just dropped a hint that Draigo leaves the warp for a second to bless the new GK character
Voldis has frag grenades...his thunder hammer IS NOT unwieldy
Daemonic adversaries chart: basically a way to come up with a reason for GK to fight something that ISN'T daemons. Could add effects like xenos that are possessed by daemons for example, really just a narrative tool
Bulwark of purity: 1 librarian, 2 units of paladins, 2 terminators (all grey knights). Librarian must wear terminator. While 3+ units on battlefield you can add +1 to deny the witch tests, and if any unit casts banishment all daemons within 12" of any unit in the formation are also affected
Sete, on 04 Mar 2017 - 5:28 PM, said:
I need a bit of explanation on that one
That's all they said about it. Think of it like the empearyon (spelling?) chart from GS1, really just there to add flavor to the game
Ordered all three Triumvirate sets and book II + III yesterday. I enjoyed reading part I and look forward to playing through the entire campaign this summer. Overall, a good release. It reminds me quite a lot of 1992 and Jervis Johnson's Wargame Series, with Bill King fleshing out the Horus Heresy story, followed by Battle for Armageddon and Doom of the Eldar. All three (four with 1st Battle for Armageddon expansion) were laying the foundations for so many of today's storylines. I hope GW continues with these in-depth, story driven campaigns
Davor wrote: Fluff is eternal? Then how come Dark Angels are green and not black like in Rouge Trader? How come we have Primarchs? How come we have 30K? We had none of that in Rogue Trader.
Because that was 40K at its inception. There was a mass rationalisation of the 40K setting at the start of 2nd Ed where they defined everything and threw out a lot of the weirder RT stuff.
Weird stuff?
Surely you mean all the good stuff like half Eldar UM officers named after Romanian tennis players?
Sarcasm obviously on my part.
The 2ndEd background and warhead books are still a good read for me after 23 years. We even got electro priests back.
commander dante wrote: So Voldus and Guilliman have been leaked
But Cypher hasnt?
I NEED to see his rules!
Cypher already has a dataslate. Not sure if he's in this new book or not.
In the dataslate was basically a captain in the dataslate with EW and with an MC bolt and plasma pistol that can fire both. He had ridiculous ballistic skill and could use his pistol profiles in close combat.
I think that review of Voldus misses the fact that as a HQ choice you don't have to pay a "Librarian tax" to take Voldus. handy if you're ever trying to squeeze a small Grey Knights task force in. as you could take Voldus INSTEAD of "a Librarian and Dragio"
It didn't say anything about them in the article. They're going to be drawing it out over the week.
From what Warhams said, I think it would be the Sicarius, Honor Guard, unit of Sternguard or Vanguard formation. Adds 1 to their WS/BS and allows Guilliman to Look Out, Sir with models in the formation.
What I 100% need to know is whether or not the Fallen Champions formation is 100% confirmed to be just Cypher and 3 units of Fallen or if it's the Triumvirate.
It didn't say anything about them in the article. They're going to be drawing it out over the week.
From what Warhams said, I think it would be the Sicarius, Honor Guard, unit of Sternguard or Vanguard formation. Adds 1 to their WS/BS and allows Guilliman to Look Out, Sir with models in the formation.
What I 100% need to know is whether or not the Fallen Champions formation is 100% confirmed to be just Cypher and 3 units of Fallen or if it's the Triumvirate.
It didn't say anything about them in the article. They're going to be drawing it out over the week.
From what Warhams said, I think it would be the Sicarius, Honor Guard, unit of Sternguard or Vanguard formation. Adds 1 to their WS/BS and allows Guilliman to Look Out, Sir with models in the formation.
What I 100% need to know is whether or not the Fallen Champions formation is 100% confirmed to be just Cypher and 3 units of Fallen or if it's the Triumvirate.
I think the response to all this shows quite some different audiences are in the community. We have the biggest change to 40K background in 25 years and most people are discussing the rules for a couple of models, ones who will only be used in some games and then only be one component of those games.
However, I think the people who are most interested in background are likely to be buying less than those who are interested in the rules for the latest models, so perhaps GW is taking the correct approach when it comes to selling models.
Samsonov wrote: I think the response to all this shows quite some different audiences are in the community. We have the biggest change to 40K background in 25 years and most people are discussing the rules for a couple of models, ones who will only be used in some games and then only be one component of those games.
However, I think the people who are most interested in background are likely to be buying less than those who are interested in the rules for the latest models, so perhaps GW is taking the correct approach when it comes to selling models.
I really only buy now because I like the models or the idea - but I think you are right in that respect - they want to sell models and hence need to do new things and its better than vever so slightly different marines all the time!
re the change to the background = well thats not exactly true - the background remains as is - its not like the Necron retcon which was a huge change, however new things are happening - more like the Clan era of BattleTech.
The High Lords of Terra and Segmentum Command speak the words of the Emperor with the voice of the Ecclesiarchy
Except that RG is blessed by both a Living Saint and the Ad Mech - two pillars of the Imperium - the Church and the Machine.
Bulwark of purity: 1 librarian, 2 units of paladins, 2 terminators (all grey knights). Librarian must wear terminator. While 3+ units on battlefield you can add +1 to deny the witch tests, and if any unit casts banishment all daemons within 12" of any unit in the formation are also affected
If this and Voldus's stats are true then it's sadly a pretty lackluster release for Grey Knights. This formation doesn't really make Paladins any more usable than they are now so you're effectively paying a massive Paladin tax for +1 DTW and better Banishment.
Voldus himself is arguably worse than a generic Librarian too. S8 AP2 at initiative is nice, but he's still just ML3 with no bonuses to psychic powers. Most Grey Knight players weren't taking their Librarians to be excellent melee beat sticks I don't think.
Really cool fluff in the release though and Rowboat seems pretty well balanced and good.
Samsonov wrote: I think the response to all this shows quite some different audiences are in the community. We have the biggest change to 40K background in 25 years and most people are discussing the rules for a couple of models, ones who will only be used in some games and then only be one component of those games.
However, I think the people who are most interested in background are likely to be buying less than those who are interested in the rules for the latest models, so perhaps GW is taking the correct approach when it comes to selling models.
Yep, like it or not, it looks like they are making good business decisions.
Yep from the what I saw on Voldus he is one of the worst stat for points characters so far........
240pts.....better to just bring Drago with a normal libby in his squad to save points.
On init thunderhammer is nice but the point cost is pretty steep for just that.....Esp when you compare him to the 1st trium and their stats...he just plain sucks in comparison.
chaos45 wrote: Yep from the what I saw on Voldus he is one of the worst stat for points characters so far........
240pts.....better to just bring Drago with a normal libby in his squad to save points.
On init thunderhammer is nice but the point cost is pretty steep for just that.....Esp when you compare him to the 1st trium and their stats...he just plain sucks in comparison.
Voldus is a ML3 Grandmaster, not a librarian, statwise. And presumably a HQ, not a lord of War like Draigo.
chaos45 wrote: Yep from the what I saw on Voldus he is one of the worst stat for points characters so far........
240pts.....better to just bring Drago with a normal libby in his squad to save points.
On init thunderhammer is nice but the point cost is pretty steep for just that.....Esp when you compare him to the 1st trium and their stats...he just plain sucks in comparison.
Voldus is a ML3 Grandmaster, not a librarian, statwise. And presumably a HQ, not a lord of War like Draigo.
So, Grey Knights don't really have any Lords of War besides Draigo. It's not really a coveted slot we need freed up.
And I dunno if you've looked at the GM statline, but it's not terribly incredible. Especially because an actual GM gets it and ML 2 for 185 points. Voldus is really overcosted in an army that's already overcosted.
Davor wrote: Fluff is eternal? Then how come Dark Angels are green and not black like in Rouge Trader? How come we have Primarchs? How come we have 30K? We had none of that in Rogue Trader.
Because that was 40K at its inception. There was a mass rationalisation of the 40K setting at the start of 2nd Ed where they defined everything and threw out a lot of the weirder RT stuff.
Kirasu wrote:
Davor wrote: Fluff is eternal? Then how come Dark Angels are green and not black like in Rouge Trader? How come we have Primarchs? How come we have 30K? We had none of that in Rogue Trader.
If you haven't figured out that Rogue Trader fluff has been mostly dead since 1992... then I don't know what to tell you? Some parts of RT remained but they basically rebuilt the game and the fluff around a totally different set of ideas. Time to just let it go, imo.
Azreal13 wrote:
Davor wrote: Then how come Dark Angels are green and not black like in Rouge Trader?
Because, at some point in time long forgotten, except maybe by a few of the highest ranking administratum, an artist got the brief wrong.
The point was, forget who said it now, that fluff never changes. So I pointed it out it does. I guess it can only change if you say so eh? So the "fluff eternal" that is not suppose to change is only ok to change if you like the change then eh? Wow, people who I thought would never move the goal posts and can actually have a great debate have just made excuses. So it's ok for second edition to change the fluff but anything after that is not allowed? Got it.
The point was, forget who said it now, that fluff never changes. So I pointed it out it does. I guess it can only change if you say so eh? So the "fluff eternal" that is not suppose to change is only ok to change if you like the change then eh? Wow, people who I thought would never move the goal posts and can actually have a great debate have just made excuses. So it's ok for second edition to change the fluff but anything after that is not allowed? Got it.
Please also disregard changes after 2nd edition, such as Squats, Tau, original Necron fluff, and anything else that may come to mind that disproves their argument.
Crazyterran wrote: 25pts for ML3 and how many points for a Daemonhammer? Is at Initiative Daemon Hammer not worth 30pts?
Voldus costs 240. A Grandmaster with a Daemon Hammer is 195. So we're paying 45 points for 1 ML and swinging the hammer at initiative.
That's a pretty bad trade in GK land. Remember, the 35 points for Grandmaster status (over Brother-Captain) is also not entirely considered worth it either.
Part of the reason for this is because we have access to 2 point Halberds (S5) and almost every infantry knows Hammerhand. Grey Knights are already happily swinging around S7 at initiative for basically nothing. Going to 10 and changing AP from 3 to 2 on one guy isn't a huge buff when you're basically S7 army wide already. Every Grey Knight knows Force too so our S7 is more than capable of trashing MC's and GMC's. The S10 is really only useful for Imperial Knights. Voldus won't kill an Imperial Knight in one turn so you won't want him fighting one anyway in case he gets stomped.
GK's take their Libbies so often because we get ML3 in Terminator armor for 135 points (and they only pay 5 points to add a Hammer to that). It's cheap. Voldus ain't that.
chaos45 wrote: Yep from the what I saw on Voldus he is one of the worst stat for points characters so far........
240pts.....better to just bring Drago with a normal libby in his squad to save points.
On init thunderhammer is nice but the point cost is pretty steep for just that.....Esp when you compare him to the 1st trium and their stats...he just plain sucks in comparison.
Voldus is a ML3 Grandmaster, not a librarian, statwise. And presumably a HQ, not a lord of War like Draigo.
So, Grey Knights don't really have any Lords of War besides Draigo. It's not really a coveted slot we need freed up.
And I dunno if you've looked at the GM statline, but it's not terribly incredible. Especially because an actual GM gets it and ML 2 for 185 points. Voldus is really overcosted in an army that's already overcosted.
And the Extra Mastery Level is 25 and the Daemon Hammer is 10 points. He's really not far off in terms of cost.
chaos45 wrote: Yep from the what I saw on Voldus he is one of the worst stat for points characters so far........
240pts.....better to just bring Drago with a normal libby in his squad to save points.
On init thunderhammer is nice but the point cost is pretty steep for just that.....Esp when you compare him to the 1st trium and their stats...he just plain sucks in comparison.
Voldus is a ML3 Grandmaster, not a librarian, statwise. And presumably a HQ, not a lord of War like Draigo.
So, Grey Knights don't really have any Lords of War besides Draigo. It's not really a coveted slot we need freed up.
And I dunno if you've looked at the GM statline, but it's not terribly incredible. Especially because an actual GM gets it and ML 2 for 185 points. Voldus is really overcosted in an army that's already overcosted.
And the Extra Mastery Level is 25 and the Daemon Hammer is 10 points. He's really not far off in terms of cost.
The ML3 on Librarians is 25, yeah. GM's can't go to ML3. Most GK's don't think GM status is worth it though. We use Libby HQ's cause they're cheap and the huge cost of everything else in the army requires us to skrimp. Draigo is worth 245 for 2 reasons: Eternal Warrior and a Storm Shield. Voldus will just get insta-deathed under a S8 pie plate like a GM would.
The point was, forget who said it now, that fluff never changes.
Perhaps you're forgetting who said it because nobody actually did? Fluff =\= setting. The details may change, new things may be introduced, but the ultimate framework stays the same, just what was once written in broad brush strokes now becomes more tightly resolved and details that weren't readily apparent before are now in focus.
Introducing a new Tau walker or Space Marine tank doesn't radically change the fundamental preposition of the whole in-game universe, bringing an element of the mythology originally designed to contextualise that universe back to life is a substantially bigger shift.
But the fact you apparently quoted me in a serious response when I was making a joke shows you've probably not got the strongest grip in this argument anyway.
No need to dissect my 'fluff is eternal' quip. It was merely a response to the comment about rules being more important than the background and I strongly disagreed. I am perfectly aware that the fluff is not literally eternal.On fundamental level it has been pretty unchanged (at least when it comes to Imperium) since the second edition though, and has inspired me to build, paint and convert models even when the rules may have been less than stellar. It remains to be seen whether I can find this new era equally engaging. As it certainly must have been clear by my comments on the subject, I have some serious doubts about that.
As for Voldus, he seems to me be fairly priced when compared to the normal Grand Master, but of course if the GM is already overpriced, then so will Voldus.
I honestly don't believe reinvigorating RG is that fundamentally ground breaking, it has always been mentioned as a possibility, whilst he is sure a huge influence in the Imperium, he is not the emperor, he has been laid low once before, it can happen again.
If it was raising the big E, or even Sangy from the grave then I would be inclined to agree, but RG as powerful a figure as he is, cannot do it all himself, and will not be able to do it all himself.
It's huge, but it doesn't change the setting that much, in fact, it makes it more grim for the imperium in many ways, like when some of the high lords inevitably plot against him.
chaos45 wrote: Yep from the what I saw on Voldus he is one of the worst stat for points characters so far........
240pts.....better to just bring Drago with a normal libby in his squad to save points.
On init thunderhammer is nice but the point cost is pretty steep for just that.....Esp when you compare him to the 1st trium and their stats...he just plain sucks in comparison.
Voldus is a ML3 Grandmaster, not a librarian, statwise. And presumably a HQ, not a lord of War like Draigo.
So, Grey Knights don't really have any Lords of War besides Draigo. It's not really a coveted slot we need freed up.
And I dunno if you've looked at the GM statline, but it's not terribly incredible. Especially because an actual GM gets it and ML 2 for 185 points. Voldus is really overcosted in an army that's already overcosted.
And the Extra Mastery Level is 25 and the Daemon Hammer is 10 points. He's really not far off in terms of cost.
The ML3 on Librarians is 25, yeah. GM's can't go to ML3. Most GK's don't think GM status is worth it though. We use Libby HQ's cause they're cheap and the huge cost of everything else in the army requires us to skrimp. Draigo is worth 245 for 2 reasons: Eternal Warrior and a Storm Shield. Voldus will just get insta-deathed under a S8 pie plate like a GM would.
Grandmasters in general won't be worth much until Riptides become more costly to field. That said, I'm merely defending Voldus' price point saying it isn't far off from what you'd expect.
Of course the generic Librarian is better but oh well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thing I just thought of: GW redid the profiles for Techmarines for everyone else outside Grey Knights. Maybe that's something we can expect here? Just a hunch.
The Fallen evidently have an agenda, and that agenda means they are willing to work with chaos or the imperium, whoever can best facilitate them to accomplish that agenda with them at that time.
There is also the matter that the Dark Angels are hunting after them, and a nice big chaos force may be the perfect road block to cover their escape over the mismanaged and under equipped local PDF.
Please don't post and repost and then quote the same, large, image, over and over, it's poor forum etiquette at best, spam at worst. Please use spoilers or remove the [img] tags from quotes.
SHORYUKEN a Black Legionnaire and punch a TERMINATOR through a marble column! 
. It is a good story, though I don;t play UM, Fallen or 
