Guilliman' armour includes life support systems.....
What's the betting that's what was/is in Cawl's box? A life support armour fit for a Primarch, or at least the main component?
And for those kvetching that Guilliman's already well established tactical nous sees Chaos get the poop kicked out of it?
Remember Calth? 'Member? I 'Member...that was the single best chance to wreck Ultramar. Sneak attack from a totally unexpected foe, already at anchor amongst a supposedly friendly fleet. Ultramarine's very much caught with their pants down? What chance did Chaos have here once Guilliman is out and about? Sure. There may be Chaos Marines who fought in the Heresy there. But alongside 10,000 years of experience, they've also got 10,000 years of absolute pants-on-head insanity to boot. Of course he wipes the floor with them. Wouldn't be a very good return if he's all derpy after his snooze, would it!
Which is exactly why bringing back loyalist primarchs was a daft idea.
Exactly. One of two things happen. The Space Marine fluff insanity goes insane with them basically curb stomping the galaxy. Since there is no credible threat to a primarch except another primarch or deamon prince or greater deamon they then have to make those. Then the xenos die or they get something to fight back or somehow manage to not get curb stomped off the map and then the fans of primarchs get mad.
It makes a silly game less about armies and politics and intrigue between them and the ever darkening of the universe to fan spank about primarchs until the end of real life time.
I hope GW shows some story restraint and show the primarchs as fallible and able to be defearted by things other than the biggest of threats, but I highly HIGHLY doubt it. It's Age of the Emperor in everything but name only.
This is my problem too. I liked when Primarchs, and the entire heresy, was just myths and legends as backstory. maybe they happened, maybe they didn't. This now becomes a full-scale "who has the bigger toys", and less about actual warfare than a few Marvel-type heroes stomping across the galaxy. Not everyone needs to have a super-character, and it's basically turning into that I think.
Guilliman' armour includes life support systems.....
What's the betting that's what was/is in Cawl's box? A life support armour fit for a Primarch, or at least the main component?
And for those kvetching that Guilliman's already well established tactical nous sees Chaos get the poop kicked out of it?
Remember Calth? 'Member? I 'Member...that was the single best chance to wreck Ultramar. Sneak attack from a totally unexpected foe, already at anchor amongst a supposedly friendly fleet. Ultramarine's very much caught with their pants down? What chance did Chaos have here once Guilliman is out and about? Sure. There may be Chaos Marines who fought in the Heresy there. But alongside 10,000 years of experience, they've also got 10,000 years of absolute pants-on-head insanity to boot. Of course he wipes the floor with them. Wouldn't be a very good return if he's all derpy after his snooze, would it!
Which is exactly why bringing back loyalist primarchs was a daft idea.
Exactly. One of two things happen. The Space Marine fluff insanity goes insane with them basically curb stomping the galaxy. Since there is no credible threat to a primarch except another primarch or deamon prince or greater deamon they then have to make those. Then the xenos die or they get something to fight back or somehow manage to not get curb stomped off the map and then the fans of primarchs get mad.
It makes a silly game less about armies and politics and intrigue between them and the ever darkening of the universe to fan spank about primarchs until the end of real life time.
I hope GW shows some story restraint and show the primarchs as fallible and able to be defearted by things other than the biggest of threats, but I highly HIGHLY doubt it. It's Age of the Emperor in everything but name only.
This is a legitimate fear of mine, fuelled by the fact that at the end of the day GW is a business and FW has demonstrated that Primarchs sell.
There's the definite risk of turning something genuinely beautiful and unique into AoS...in spaaaace.
Guys, one Primarch isn't going to wreck anything. There were 18 at one point with Big E and they still couldn't conquer the whole galaxy easily. It took centuries in the Great Crusade.
One Primarch means a story shift, not a radical beating of all the enemies of Mankind.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Guys, one Primarch isn't going to wreck anything. There were 18 at one point with Big E and they still couldn't conquer the whole galaxy easily. It took centuries in the Great Crusade.
One Primarch means a story shift, not a radical beating of all the enemies of Mankind.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Guys, one Primarch isn't going to wreck anything. There were 18 at one point with Big E and they still couldn't conquer the whole galaxy easily. It took centuries in the Great Crusade.
One Primarch means a story shift, not a radical beating of all the enemies of Mankind.
I hope your right... but I think they will make all primarchs return. Maybe not this year but over the years as time goes by. What happens then?
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Hopefully his recovery will help get the Imperium's head out of its ass though.
I am hoping it causes a schism or something and splits the Imperium into two, sort of a parallel between the Eastern/Western Roman Empire at its decline. Some chapters stay loyal to the Imperium, others go with Guilliman to form Imperium Secundus or w/e.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Hopefully his recovery will help get the Imperium's head out of its ass though.
I am hoping it causes a schism or something and splits the Imperium into two, sort of a parallel between the Eastern/Western Roman Empire at its decline. Some chapters stay loyal to the Imperium, others go with Guilliman to form Imperium Secundus or w/e.
Guilliman' armour includes life support systems.....
What's the betting that's what was/is in Cawl's box? A life support armour fit for a Primarch, or at least the main component?
And for those kvetching that Guilliman's already well established tactical nous sees Chaos get the poop kicked out of it?
Remember Calth? 'Member? I 'Member...that was the single best chance to wreck Ultramar. Sneak attack from a totally unexpected foe, already at anchor amongst a supposedly friendly fleet. Ultramarine's very much caught with their pants down? What chance did Chaos have here once Guilliman is out and about? Sure. There may be Chaos Marines who fought in the Heresy there. But alongside 10,000 years of experience, they've also got 10,000 years of absolute pants-on-head insanity to boot. Of course he wipes the floor with them. Wouldn't be a very good return if he's all derpy after his snooze, would it!
Which is exactly why bringing back loyalist primarchs was a daft idea.
Exactly. One of two things happen. The Space Marine fluff insanity goes insane with them basically curb stomping the galaxy. Since there is no credible threat to a primarch except another primarch or deamon prince or greater deamon they then have to make those. Then the xenos die or they get something to fight back or somehow manage to not get curb stomped off the map and then the fans of primarchs get mad.
It makes a silly game less about armies and politics and intrigue between them and the ever darkening of the universe to fan spank about primarchs until the end of real life time.
I hope GW shows some story restraint and show the primarchs as fallible and able to be defearted by things other than the biggest of threats, but I highly HIGHLY doubt it. It's Age of the Emperor in everything but name only.
This is a legitimate fear of mine, fuelled by the fact that at the end of the day GW is a business and FW has demonstrated that Primarchs sell.
There's the definite risk of turning something genuinely beautiful and unique into AoS...in spaaaace.
Not a certainty by any means, but a risk.
Aaand we had to drag-in the other game into the argument. Say whatever excuse you want, but you guys are obssessed with it (and bashing it). As someone else said: it's just a story shift. Primarchs have been active in the lore even prior to this current events. Now things are just going to shake up a tiny little bit (something needed to keep fresh the setting, without destroying it, of course). If what we know of GSII is true (eldar being even more divided) then it may turn out that things go further south(east) for the Imperium, so don't get you panties in a twist.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Guys, one Primarch isn't going to wreck anything. There were 18 at one point with Big E and they still couldn't conquer the whole galaxy easily. It took centuries in the Great Crusade.
One Primarch means a story shift, not a radical beating of all the enemies of Mankind.
I hope your right... but I think they will make all primarchs return. Maybe not this year but over the years as time goes by. What happens then?
The it'll be stalemate. It'll be chaos and the Imperium duking it out until kingdom come, or to put it another way, business as usual.
Sadly after the close-up, I dislike Gullyman even more. Just not a good looking model. Cypher and the other fella look fine (quite good actually). I dislike the filigree (though part of me thinks it's so obnoxious you could easily kit-bash this guy as some super-duper Thousand Sons warlord).
The pose is terrible, and sadly the foot being on the weird rock means that this guy is uni-pose and can't be mounted on something else. It looks like it would take a lot of work to mount him on a normal unobtrusive flat base. That's a real shame. It's too silly of a pose to see on every single Gullyman for the next 5-10 years.
"What's up Gullyman?"
"Not much bro, just doing the splits between some sweet ass boulders...ya know...the usual"
Exactly. One of two things happen. The Space Marine fluff insanity goes insane with them basically curb stomping the galaxy. Since there is no credible threat to a primarch except another primarch or deamon prince or greater deamon they then have to make those. Then the xenos die or they get something to fight back or somehow manage to not get curb stomped off the map and then the fans of primarchs get mad.
It makes a silly game less about armies and politics and intrigue between them and the ever darkening of the universe to fan spank about primarchs until the end of real life time.
I hope GW shows some story restraint and show the primarchs as fallible and able to be defearted by things other than the biggest of threats, but I highly HIGHLY doubt it. It's Age of the Emperor in everything but name only.
It feel like they've been ramping up to bigger and bigger heroes. It seems like it's just going to come down to "what primarch-level heavy hitters will each faction get?" Obviously chaos gets Daemon primarchs, and we now have precedent for new eldar avatars so GW can crank out a whole slew of increasingly powerful ones if need be. But what about the other Xenos races? Will Orks get Beast-level super Orks? Souped-up c'tan shards for Necrons? One-off Mega-battlesuits for Tau (Farsight custom riptide maybe)? How crazy can we get?
All I have to say is that Guilliman better be usable by all Space Marine Chapters and that the formations in the book better not be Ultramarine exclusive. I suppose this is where we will be getting the Ultramarines equivalent to the different detachments from Angels of Death. Good for them, but it still sucks to be a Black Templars or Crimson Fists player. Still no specialized formations or detachments for us. :(
Gulliman is a terrible model. . Way too big and bizarre proportion. Bringing back loyalist primarchs is such a terrible idea imo. The other two are cools though
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Hopefully his recovery will help get the Imperium's head out of its ass though.
So basically you want it to stop being the Imperium?
Yes, or split into two Imperiums.
I could see this happening. Guilman wasn't on great terms with the high lords of terra last time, and things can't be much better now. I could see there being a schism with all loyalist marines on one side and the rest of the Imperium on the other.
Farsight: The Emperor never told you what happened to the lost primarch.
Roboute Gulliman: He told me enough! He told me you killed him!
Farsight: No, I am the primarch.
Roboute Guliman: No that's not true!!!! That's impossible!
Farsight: You underestimate the power of the Tau side.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Hopefully his recovery will help get the Imperium's head out of its ass though.
So basically you want it to stop being the Imperium?
Which has been kind of the motivation for Guilliman with the whole Imperium Secundus mess. He's a power-hungry bastard, who began making grimdark gak go running rampant in his own personal empire even before the days of the heresy, so I'll doubt ten millenia of house arrest have done much to settle his tendencies.
Farsight: The Emperor never told you what happened to the lost primarch.
Roboute Gulliman: He told me enough! He told me you killed him!
Farsight: No, I am the primarch.
Roboute Guliman: No that's not true!!!! That's impossible!
Farsight: You underestimate the power of the Tau side.
Hahah.
Please stop trying to make everything about the Tau...
Someone asked how crazy it could get so I gave my personal take on the matter. I assure you I would be flabbergasted as anyone if that happened. Basically it's a joke. If that ever happens in 40k the shark has jumped SO far.
I see this as one way for them to turn up the heat between Imperium vs. Imperium battles. As schisms break out between conservative elements and those rallying around the returned Primarchs.
They finally really did it. You maniacs! You blew it up! Damn you! God damn you all to hell!
So loyalist Primarchs in 40K. I don't like this, I don't like this one bit. If they resurrect the Emperor, i'm fething done.
Now, for the models.
The GK guy is nice. Looks really good in fact.
Cypher is just amazing. Stellar model. I really love his face.
And the big guy. Now, apart the fact that it exists at all, I like this model. I like it a lot more than FW Primarchs in fact. While the FW Primarchs are fine pieces of art, I have never liked them as Warhammer models. They look like space marines done in different scale and different style. They look out of place next to other GW miniatures. If Primarchs really have to be stupidly large ridiculous überdudes, then this new model is how I'd expect them to look in Warhammer. It actually looks like it belongs with the other models. (My only nitpick is that the model's head looks oddly detached due it being so small and set so high. A small head is fine, but it would look better with a slightly shorter neck, partially recessed in the armour.)
The question is whether to convert it into Dorn, Russ, or some sort of a daemon prince? Using it as Guilliman is obviously out of the question.
Not even GW artists could be arsed to respect Guillaume. Compare his paintjob against the one on the GK (very nice) and Cypher (give the painter an honourary Slayer Sword right now!). Cypher's pose and sculpt quality make him a thousand times more impressive than the freaking(ly huge) Primarch next to him, something GW doesn't really seem to get.
I have my ears firmly plugged when it comes to 40k's advancing timeline already - I'm just not enjoining the current fluff OR writing - *and* I'm in the camp that wants the Heresyto remain mythologicalm sooo just one more (really big and disproportionate) thing to ignore.
Exactly. One of two things happen. The Space Marine fluff insanity goes insane with them basically curb stomping the galaxy. Since there is no credible threat to a primarch except another primarch or deamon prince or greater deamon they then have to make those. Then the xenos die or they get something to fight back or somehow manage to not get curb stomped off the map and then the fans of primarchs get mad.
It makes a silly game less about armies and politics and intrigue between them and the ever darkening of the universe to fan spank about primarchs until the end of real life time.
I hope GW shows some story restraint and show the primarchs as fallible and able to be defearted by things other than the biggest of threats, but I highly HIGHLY doubt it. It's Age of the Emperor in everything but name only.
It feel like they've been ramping up to bigger and bigger heroes. It seems like it's just going to come down to "what primarch-level heavy hitters will each faction get?" Obviously chaos gets Daemon primarchs, and we now have precedent for new eldar avatars so GW can crank out a whole slew of increasingly powerful ones if need be. But what about the other Xenos races? Will Orks get Beast-level super Orks? Souped-up c'tan shards for Necrons? One-off Mega-battlesuits for Tau (Farsight custom riptide maybe)? How crazy can we get?
Honestly... I'm not sure. Anything or nothing could happen depending on how biased the fluff and lore gets with primarchs back. Safe bet is Farsight and/or Shadowsun in some sort of super suits. Necrons have c'tan shards. Orks dunno.
Honestly... I'm not sure. Anything or nothing could happen depending on how biased the fluff and lore gets with primarchs back. Safe bet is Farsight and/or Shadowsun in some sort of super suits. Necrons have c'tan shards. Orks dunno.
Tau, again?
Are they even rumored to be appearing in GATHERING STORM III: Rise of the Primarch?!?
jreilly89 wrote: Kinda bummed it's Roboute and not the Lion, but that Cypher model looks great.
I still think the Lion will be showing up too, eventually!
casvalremdeikun wrote: All I have to say is that Guilliman better be usable by all Space Marine Chapters and that the formations in the book better not be Ultramarine exclusive. I suppose this is where we will be getting the Ultramarines equivalent to the different detachments from Angels of Death. Good for them, but it still sucks to be a Black Templars or Crimson Fists player. Still no specialized formations or detachments for us. :(
The last book has TWO formations you can use for fraks sake. Granted one of them was an apoc formation.....
Giving you the ability to bring crusader squads back to life on a 5+ and army wide hatred is nothing to sneeze at for black templars and crimson fists.
Perhaps Gulliman get religiously reborn when it turns out The Emprah actually can reward acts of fait and stuff.
After all, Celestine is fighting side by side with his forces.
Stranger things have happened to people in near death situations.
He would probably need something like that to not go absolutely insane when he see the world of 40k and the imperium.
Farsight: The Emperor never told you what happened to the lost primarch.
Roboute Gulliman: He told me enough! He told me you killed him!
Farsight: No, I am the primarch.
Roboute Guliman: No that's not true!!!! That's impossible!
Farsight: You underestimate the power of the Tau side.
Hahah.
I hate feeding trolls, but it's more likely that the Tyranids were actually one of the first founding chapters. They were all but exterminated because of the random mutations. If you consider all the old fluff, both marines and tyranids can absorb the memories of their enemies by eating them. Their digestive capabilities and their superior strengths. The prim arch and a small band could have escaped. Could be cool if they base them off of a canabalistic historical group.
Everyone is going nuts bananas, and in panic with Guilliman's return, and here I am anxious to know more about Cypher. With his Fallen. Fighting for the Imperium. And the whole sword deal.
I can't wait for books with this event as their setting: A Cypher book would be so amazing, kinda like the Ahriman series.
casvalremdeikun wrote: All I have to say is that Guilliman better be usable by all Space Marine Chapters ..:(
Why had he 'better be'?
Because it is annoying that GW always plays favorites with Ultramarines and Ignores the other Chapters.
sfshilo wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote: All I have to say is that Guilliman better be usable by all Space Marine Chapters and that the formations in the book better not be Ultramarine exclusive. I suppose this is where we will be getting the Ultramarines equivalent to the different detachments from Angels of Death. Good for them, but it still sucks to be a Black Templars or Crimson Fists player. Still no specialized formations or detachments for us. :(
The last book has TWO formations you can use for fraks sake. Granted one of them was an apoc formation.....
Giving you the ability to bring crusader squads back to life on a 5+ and army wide hatred is nothing to sneeze at for black templars and crimson fists.
Can use, yes. Designed specifically for like the other major Chapters received, no. Pedro Kantor still can't be used in a Sternhammer Strike Force and Templars still don't have a Detachment that mirrors what other major Chapters have.
Captain Joystick wrote: Noticed on the rotational shot from the picture... His grieves are segmented the same way as the lower legs of a kastelan robot.
Could it be possible his life support system is a full-on Darth Vader scenario?
That is my assumption for why he looks so different. He, like Vader (and Calgar), is more machine now than man.
Guilliman' armour includes life support systems.....
What's the betting that's what was/is in Cawl's box? A life support armour fit for a Primarch, or at least the main component?
And for those kvetching that Guilliman's already well established tactical nous sees Chaos get the poop kicked out of it?
Remember Calth? 'Member? I 'Member...that was the single best chance to wreck Ultramar. Sneak attack from a totally unexpected foe, already at anchor amongst a supposedly friendly fleet. Ultramarine's very much caught with their pants down? What chance did Chaos have here once Guilliman is out and about? Sure. There may be Chaos Marines who fought in the Heresy there. But alongside 10,000 years of experience, they've also got 10,000 years of absolute pants-on-head insanity to boot. Of course he wipes the floor with them. Wouldn't be a very good return if he's all derpy after his snooze, would it!
Which is exactly why bringing back loyalist primarchs was a daft idea.
Of course it was, but Games Workshop have been desperate to turn 40k into Horus Heresy 2.0 for years. They probably wish they could squat every army but loyalist Space Marines. Hell considering AoS showed they were more than willing to destroy an entire gameline for an excuse to shove Sigmarines down our throats, it wouldn't surprise me if in 8th the ONLY main armies were Space Marines, but you could take the remnants of your pre-8th armies as allies or osme nonsense.
Xenos are just going to get relegated even further into NPC status. Imperial Guard/Sisters/Mechanicus will exist to sell as Allies to LSM's on the tabletop and as punching bags to be saved by some shade of Space Marine in the lore.
The setting will turn into The Avengers, where it revolves entirely around the loyalist Primarchs fighting the Daemon Primarchs like some superhero comic.
Here's what I dont get. They have 3 books full of getting the band back together to fight chaos. All these triumvirate sets of raid party members to fight the last boss at the end of the dungeon......and the current rumor is that abaddon bites it? Where the hell is the chaos stuff in this campaign? Now me personally I don't think abaddon will 'die' necessarily because they never axe models without replacements. But 6 imperium and 3 eldar characters and thats a wrap? Are you kidding me?
casvalremdeikun wrote: All I have to say is that Guilliman better be usable by all Space Marine Chapters ..:(
Why had he 'better be'?
Yeah I have to question that, it's not like Magnus was usable by all of Chaos either.
Um....technically he is. Magnus is a CSMLoW. not just a T-sons LoW. So as long as you aren't using a Traitor's Legion (which have restrictions on the characters you can field), Magnus is fair game.
The problem with Papa Smurf is that he'll likely have Chapter Tactics: Ultramarine, thereby limiting him to detachments of Smurfs.
However, in either case you just take multiple detachments and take whatever you want. Papa Smurf will be BBs with all the Imperium, just as Magnus is BBs with all Chaos
It's not like 40K has any sort of restricting structure of consequence
Don Savik wrote: Here's what I dont get. They have 3 books full of getting the band back together to fight chaos. All these triumvirate sets of raid party members to fight the last boss at the end of the dungeon......and the current rumor is that abaddon bites it? Where the hell is the chaos stuff in this campaign? Now me personally I don't think abaddon will 'die' necessarily because they never axe models without replacements. But 6 imperium and 3 eldar characters and thats a wrap? Are you kidding me?
Who cares about Chaos? BUY YOUR DAMN LOYALIST SPACE MARINES (and their allies).
I know some people are going to jump up and down screaming "b-b-but Thousand Sons and Traitor Legions!" but it's hysterical to me that is an argument when as soon as Chaos get something, it's like the loyalists have to also receive a present just in case it upsets them. Heck, I'm willing to bet the only reason Chaos even received Magnus in the first place is to justify putting a loyalist Primarch on the table when there were still Daemon Primarchs alive.
Don Savik wrote: Here's what I dont get. They have 3 books full of getting the band back together to fight chaos. All these triumvirate sets of raid party members to fight the last boss at the end of the dungeon......and the current rumor is that abaddon bites it? Where the hell is the chaos stuff in this campaign? Now me personally I don't think abaddon will 'die' necessarily because they never axe models without replacements. But 6 imperium and 3 eldar characters and thats a wrap? Are you kidding me?
I honestly think GW is acknowledging that Abaddon as a character concept has been tainted by years of poor fluff-writing. It almost seems like they want to kill him off to make room for something better.
Don Savik wrote: Here's what I dont get. They have 3 books full of getting the band back together to fight chaos. All these triumvirate sets of raid party members to fight the last boss at the end of the dungeon......and the current rumor is that abaddon bites it? Where the hell is the chaos stuff in this campaign? Now me personally I don't think abaddon will 'die' necessarily because they never axe models without replacements. But 6 imperium and 3 eldar characters and thats a wrap? Are you kidding me?
I honestly think GW is acknowledging that Abaddon as a character concept has been tainted by years of poor fluff-writing. It almost seems like they want to kill him off to make room for something better.
I mean at this point I hope the 'something better' is a big chaos release at the start of 8th edition. That's all I can wish for at this point. Hopefully Cypher kills the emperor or something.
Don Savik wrote: Here's what I dont get. They have 3 books full of getting the band back together to fight chaos. All these triumvirate sets of raid party members to fight the last boss at the end of the dungeon......and the current rumor is that abaddon bites it? Where the hell is the chaos stuff in this campaign? Now me personally I don't think abaddon will 'die' necessarily because they never axe models without replacements. But 6 imperium and 3 eldar characters and thats a wrap? Are you kidding me?
I honestly think GW is acknowledging that Abaddon as a character concept has been tainted by years of poor fluff-writing. It almost seems like they want to kill him off to make room for something better.
It seems more likely they'd want to kill him off just because in this new age of "Warhammer 40,000: The Avengers" they thought it would look odd if on the tabletop 'mere mortal' Abbadon is still around leading these giant Daemon Primarchs. He'll probably come back as a Daemon Prince anyway.
Don Savik wrote: Here's what I dont get. They have 3 books full of getting the band back together to fight chaos. All these triumvirate sets of raid party members to fight the last boss at the end of the dungeon......and the current rumor is that abaddon bites it? Where the hell is the chaos stuff in this campaign? Now me personally I don't think abaddon will 'die' necessarily because they never axe models without replacements. But 6 imperium and 3 eldar characters and thats a wrap? Are you kidding me?
I honestly think GW is acknowledging that Abaddon as a character concept has been tainted by years of poor fluff-writing. It almost seems like they want to kill him off to make room for something better.
It seems more likely they'd want to kill him off just because in this new age of "Warhammer 40,000: The Avengers" they thought it would look odd if on the tabletop 'mere mortal' Abbadon is still around leading these giant Daemon Primarchs. He'll probably come back as a Daemon Prince anyway.
Yea the chaos gods are finally like "welp we tried it your way but its demon prince time" and Abby just kicks the sand and goes "aww shucks I almost got em this time". That could work I guess.
Arbitrator wrote: He'll probably come back as a Daemon Prince anyway.
If I were a betting man, this is exactly what I'd say GW is building towards. Abbey gets defeated but seconds before he "dies" he finally gives into the Chaos gods and becomes a DP.
No need to release an infantry model when the "big bad' of Chaos can be an MC.
Don Savik wrote: Here's what I dont get. They have 3 books full of getting the band back together to fight chaos. All these triumvirate sets of raid party members to fight the last boss at the end of the dungeon......and the current rumor is that abaddon bites it? Where the hell is the chaos stuff in this campaign? Now me personally I don't think abaddon will 'die' necessarily because they never axe models without replacements. But 6 imperium and 3 eldar characters and thats a wrap? Are you kidding me?
I honestly think GW is acknowledging that Abaddon as a character concept has been tainted by years of poor fluff-writing. It almost seems like they want to kill him off to make room for something better.
It seems more likely they'd want to kill him off just because in this new age of "Warhammer 40,000: The Avengers" they thought it would look odd if on the tabletop 'mere mortal' Abbadon is still around leading these giant Daemon Primarchs. He'll probably come back as a Daemon Prince anyway.
Yea the chaos gods are finally like "welp we tried it your way but its demon prince time" and Abby just kicks the sand and goes "aww shucks I almost got em this time". That could work I guess.
Perhaps we will see a new Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided. Or Lorgar will get up off his ass and do something.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Hopefully his recovery will help get the Imperium's head out of its ass though.
So basically you want it to stop being the Imperium?
Yes, or split into two Imperiums.
I'll never be able to understand that mindset. If I like something, it's because it is what it is, so why would I want it to be something else?
It's like people who want a dark, gritty, violent, morally-ambiguous Star Trek show.
Well, the Star Trek reboot movies made a lot of money. The new Star Wars movie that wasn't anything like a Star Wars movie made even more money. I don't know why, but there are obviously a lot of people out there like that.
As far as the 40k developments, I think it works out well if you like Eldar. Your Eldar can be ones distrustful of all the Ynnead stuff and continue being just like they've always been. Or, if you want, they can embrace it all and evolve. Doesn't seem like it will work out so well for fans of Ultramarines or Fallen/Dark Angels. If Guilliman creates a wonderful utopian empire broken away from the Imperium, and you're an Ultramarine player that liked the dystopian Imperium, I guess you'd be out of luck. But let's see where they take it. It sounds like they're just setting up a long-term war in Ultramar that Guilliman will be busy fighting against chaos.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Hopefully his recovery will help get the Imperium's head out of its ass though.
So basically you want it to stop being the Imperium?
Yes, or split into two Imperiums.
I'll never be able to understand that mindset. If I like something, it's because it is what it is, so why would I want it to be something else?
It's like people who want a dark, gritty, violent, morally-ambiguous Star Trek show.
Because its possible to like multiple things, and even to like things after they change.
Nobody's saying you can't like 40K after the changes, that's a matter of taste, it's the idea that you'd want it to change in the first place if you liked it how it was that baffles me.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Hopefully his recovery will help get the Imperium's head out of its ass though.
So basically you want it to stop being the Imperium?
Yes, or split into two Imperiums.
I'll never be able to understand that mindset. If I like something, it's because it is what it is, so why would I want it to be something else?
It's like people who want a dark, gritty, violent, morally-ambiguous Star Trek show.
Because its possible to like multiple things, and even to like things after they change.
Nobody's saying you can't like 40K after the changes, that's a matter of taste, it's the idea that you'd want it to change in the first place if you liked it how it was that baffles me.
Because every so often changing things up can be interesting.
Why would you want a sequel to a movie you like? Because you want more than already exists, even knowing it will be different (and possibly just bad).
The problem with this is, if it's bad, you can't really easily ignore it and still play the game, because you'll be wanting to play in a different setting (pre-Guilliman and pre-hypothetical-Imperium-split) than your opponent, and if you play in a narrative fashion that might be an issue.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Hopefully his recovery will help get the Imperium's head out of its ass though.
So basically you want it to stop being the Imperium?
Yes, or split into two Imperiums.
I'll never be able to understand that mindset. If I like something, it's because it is what it is, so why would I want it to be something else?
It's like people who want a dark, gritty, violent, morally-ambiguous Star Trek show.
Because its possible to like multiple things, and even to like things after they change.
Nobody's saying you can't like 40K after the changes, that's a matter of taste, it's the idea that you'd want it to change in the first place if you liked it how it was that baffles me.
Because every so often changing things up can be interesting.
But not this, it's undermining one of the core themes of 40k. GW are pissing all over the background and making sure the stink of their contempt for it runs foetid through every page. Change for change's sake is how we've got this gak fest of 40k's current rules. If the background goes the same way (which all signs point to) then I'm out.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Hopefully his recovery will help get the Imperium's head out of its ass though.
So basically you want it to stop being the Imperium?
Yes, or split into two Imperiums.
I'll never be able to understand that mindset. If I like something, it's because it is what it is, so why would I want it to be something else?
It's like people who want a dark, gritty, violent, morally-ambiguous Star Trek show.
Because its possible to like multiple things, and even to like things after they change.
Nobody's saying you can't like 40K after the changes, that's a matter of taste, it's the idea that you'd want it to change in the first place if you liked it how it was that baffles me.
Because every so often changing things up can be interesting.
Yeah, and when I feel that way, I read/watch/play something else, I don't hope the thing I was reading/watching/playing at the time fundamentally and irrevocably changes; both because that removes it as an option to go back to later when I want to experience something that matches its original characteristics, and because it's a complete gamble whether I'll like the changed version or not.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Hopefully his recovery will help get the Imperium's head out of its ass though.
So basically you want it to stop being the Imperium?
Yes, or split into two Imperiums.
I'll never be able to understand that mindset. If I like something, it's because it is what it is, so why would I want it to be something else?
It's like people who want a dark, gritty, violent, morally-ambiguous Star Trek show.
Because its possible to like multiple things, and even to like things after they change.
Nobody's saying you can't like 40K after the changes, that's a matter of taste, it's the idea that you'd want it to change in the first place if you liked it how it was that baffles me.
Because every so often changing things up can be interesting.
Yeah, and when I feel that way, I read/watch/play something else, I don't hope the thing I was reading/watching/playing at the time fundamentally and irrevocably changes; both because that removes it as an option to go back to later when I want to experience something that matches its original characteristics, and because it's a complete gamble whether I'll like the changed version or not.
Like I say, I just don't get it.
Well to each their own after all. And you knpow my wanting to see what happens next could always bite me in the ass with this.
rollawaythestone wrote: I see this as one way for them to turn up the heat between Imperium vs. Imperium battles. As schisms break out between conservative elements and those rallying around the returned Primarchs.
im pretty sure this is whats going to happen, there will be space marines versus space marines, thats a lot of space marines. exactly what gw wants. with of course our Spiritual Liege probably having the crunch advantage. story wise as long as the grimdark intensifies i am good
i like playing chaotic evil, would make a difficult decision if i start a new army, roll isis marines or imperium secondus ultramarines....
djones520 wrote: As someone whose been playing 40K for 22 years... I for one am glad to see the story advancing. It was getting pretty stale.
40k was a setting, not a story. To say it was getting "stale" when you had an entire galaxy and a length of time longer than recorded human history so far is just false.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Hopefully his recovery will help get the Imperium's head out of its ass though.
So basically you want it to stop being the Imperium?
Yes, or split into two Imperiums.
I'll never be able to understand that mindset. If I like something, it's because it is what it is, so why would I want it to be something else?
It's like people who want a dark, gritty, violent, morally-ambiguous Star Trek show.
Because its possible to like multiple things, and even to like things after they change.
Nobody's saying you can't like 40K after the changes, that's a matter of taste, it's the idea that you'd want it to change in the first place if you liked it how it was that baffles me.
Because every so often changing things up can be interesting.
But not this, it's undermining one of the core themes of 40k. GW are pissing all over the background and making sure the stink of their contempt for it runs foetid through every page. Change for change's sake is how we've got this gak fest of 40k's current rules. If the background goes the same way (which all signs point to) then I'm out.
That's bollocks. You can play anything you want in the Warhammer timeline, from 30k to 40k. It's always been that way. Both the fluff of the Imperium from the end of the HH to the gathering storm all still exists, and the ability to play narrative games of 40k or paint your minis to represent forces throughout has been a staple. People recreated the Badab wars, eg gitssplitta's mantis warriors, or go back further to The Age of Apostasy, a very interesting point in the fluff. Do you hear people going, 'Urgh, they killed Goge and moved the plot along and now I can't play Age of Apostasy.' No, of course not. you wanna make a souldrinker's army and read the fluff, the option is there, just like playing 40,999 will always be there.
I take a couple days off from the Internet to play Conan: Exiles, and Roboute Guilliman comes back from the dead.
From an objective standpoint, it actually doesn't bother me to have one or more primarchs come back, I guess.
However, I don't have any faith in the current GW Creative and writing staff to do this right. The sky isn't falling yet, but I think I can make out some small cracks.
Nicorex wrote: I wonder why his bolter has a flamer igniter? Also Cypher's Plasma gun has one also.
thats their latest thing esp in age of sigmarine, which painting wise annoys the hell out of me, model in the mold magic/fire/etherialness wherever possible
djones520 wrote: As someone whose been playing 40K for 22 years... I for one am glad to see the story advancing. It was getting pretty stale.
40k was a setting, not a story. To say it was getting "stale" when you had an entire galaxy and a length of time longer than recorded human history so far is just false.
I was just about to post this !
It started out as a setting and more stuff was added to the setting.
Now, it is an advancing story line, and it seems to be advancing solely to sell models, because no one could come up with anything else...
It seems pretty sad to me and the end of an era, It would not have grabbed me in the first place if it was a story.
Luckily for GW, some of the models keep pulling me back in and I am more interested in reading about the history of the setting, via FW, rather that what is currently happening.
I think the proportion issues with guilliman might be to do with the way his torso is twisted. If we view him from so he is turned with his chest flat to us he might see a little less gangly.
Once it's in hand it might seem a bit better, like most things.
rollawaythestone wrote: I see this as one way for them to turn up the heat between Imperium vs. Imperium battles. As schisms break out between conservative elements and those rallying around the returned Primarchs.
Exactly what I Hope. Make it so not all marines are on the same side, but not exactly in open warfare like the Heresy. But finally, after all these years, provide a legit in-game reason for Marine vs. Marine or Marine vs. Guard or Guard vs. Mechanicus etc. (basically any Imperium vs. Imperium) without it being down to hand-waving the battle as just a game, saying it's a training exercise/not a real fight, or playing "who is the heretic today".
This is "The End Times", sci-fi edition. Every over the top BS thing you can think of is probably going to happen, and fast. Expect all of the Primarchs to re-appear, one a month from now on.
8th edition will be Age of the Emperor. 30 years worth of fluff will be destroyed in a bid to sell big model kits.
I can't believe GW are really dumb enough to mess with the cash cow like this.
Yup, As i thought. The twist at the waist and the raised leg, plus the way he was initially photographed have done the models proportions no favours.
He is an absolute beast of a man, and of course his armour is never going to scale correctly with a proper human occupant (tho really, they could have made the head a little bigger) but from front on he does look more in proportion.
Tamereth wrote: FFS they are really going there aren't they.
This is "The End Times", sci-fi edition. Every over the top BS thing you can think of is probably going to happen, and fast. Expect all of the Primarchs to re-appear, one a month from now on.
8th edition will be Age of the Emperor. 30 years worth of fluff will be destroyed in a bid to sell big model kits.
I can't believe GW are really dumb enough to mess with the cash cow like this.
The Roboute model isn't even good.
"No armies exist on purpose,
No Primarches belong anywhere,
Everybody's gonna die.
Come watch TV."
Let's sit back and enjoy this gakshow. I look forward to the videos of armies getting torched this summer.
Tamereth wrote: FFS they are really going there aren't they.
This is "The End Times", sci-fi edition. Every over the top BS thing you can think of is probably going to happen, and fast. Expect all of the Primarchs to re-appear, one a month from now on. 8th edition will be Age of the Emperor. 30 years worth of fluff will be destroyed in a bid to sell big model kits.
I can't believe GW are really dumb enough to mess with the cash cow like this.
The Roboute model isn't even good.
Nah, cash is exactly why they're messing with it.
Loyalist Primarchs will sell by the bucket loads. They've gradually been raising the SM arms race for years now. Fliers, Centurions, (allied) Knights, Wolf Chariots, etc. AoS was brought about to sell Fantasy Space Marines and it's working.
Forge World has turned into 'The Warhammer 30,000 Company' because people love their generic power armoured dudes. So obviously the next best thing is to turn 40k into Horus Heresy 2.0.
The 40k End Times will be the squat'ing of every non-Space Marine army. Unlike the End Times, most of the fandom will lap this up eagerly because, you guessed it, most of fandom are spared from their fate. Maybe not come 8th, but by 9th I'd be surprised if Imperial Guard and Sisters haven't been relegated to the position the Inquisition inhabit now. Xenos races will only be the purview of those box set board games as NPCs. Black Library will be nothing but books focusing on the exploits of the (loyalist) Primarchs in both the 41st millenium and what they were up to during their time away.
That Cypher model is absolutely amazing, and so many tiers above the other models of this latest triumvirate that it isn't even funny.
The Grey Knight model is decent, but not terribly exciting in pose, dynamism, or content. Not bad.
The Guilliman model looks better with the helm and the 360 reveal makes the proportions less wonky than they first appeared in the WD reveal (seriously, WD, that was the best angle you could get?), and even the still-wonky proportions may end up being explained reasonably well, given the blurb about Cawl's technology and Yvraine's psycher chicanery being the method of awakening the big G.
I'm... dubious... about how well GW will justify the Ultramarines letting a xenos like Yvraine performing psycho-surgery on their Primarch, but I'm willing to wait to see how they justify it.
I won't be purchasing this triumvirate (I'm a Tau player through and through - at most, I'll be converting some Kroot/Battlesuits/Drones into counts-as), though I would love to get a hand on the Flaming Sword for use as a Fusion Blade. Hopefully a lot of people (in this thread, and generally) dislike the sword enough for me to find it on Ebay!
Edit: the salt in this thread is incredibly concentrated.
rollawaythestone wrote: I see this as one way for them to turn up the heat between Imperium vs. Imperium battles. As schisms break out between conservative elements and those rallying around the returned Primarchs.
Exactly what I Hope. Make it so not all marines are on the same side, but not exactly in open warfare like the Heresy. But finally, after all these years, provide a legit in-game reason for Marine vs. Marine or Marine vs. Guard or Guard vs. Mechanicus etc. (basically any Imperium vs. Imperium) without it being down to hand-waving the battle as just a game, saying it's a training exercise/not a real fight, or playing "who is the heretic today".
The problem I'm seeing here is that Robot Girlyman appears to be too "pure" of a "good guy" for the themes and setting of the 40k universe. So what it looks like (if things go the schism route) is we're gonna have the "traditional" Imperium vs the "good Republic" or whatever, which really defeats the idea in 40k that nobody is completely good or altruistic. I mean, it really unbalances the scales when you've got an unequivocally pure faction in a universe built on grimdark themes. (They corrected this issue with the Tau by adding all the implications later on that their society is founded on brainwashing...)
That's why I'm hoping (like a few others have said) that Roboute turns out to be a complete donkey-cave/nutter in the face of the last 10,000 years of history. For example, having him look upon the Imperium and realize that Curze was right about what would happen - as well as seeing the complete domination of Lorgar's Lectitio Divinitatus throughout human culture - and deciding that it's time to destroy the Imperium and build a new one under his own personal rule. This would open up a lot of interesting narratives (especially with Roboute having such a hard-on for rules and doctrines, such as the Codex Astartes), driving the story towards an Imperial Civil War between two intractable ideologies (neither of which is clearly "good").
@OP:
Cypher model looks gorgeous. Hope I can pick one up at some point. The GK Grandmaster is kinda meh as far as GKs go (and I'm a big fanboy of the GK look, so take that as you will). Not a fan of the big guy though.
I don't quite understand why GW would even want to turn the game into battles between opposing huge characters. That's kind of what they did with Age of Sigmar. It seems like an army is supposed to be mostly one (or more) giant centerpiece model(s), with a handful of mooks. Seems counter productive. I mean, they must have sold many times more boxes of skeletons for fantasy than they sold Nagash kits, and presumably that means the regular guys are way more profitable, right? So why encourage an army of Nagash and a couple of big monsters, instead of like 100 skeletons and some characters?
Tamereth wrote: FFS they are really going there aren't they.
This is "The End Times", sci-fi edition. Every over the top BS thing you can think of is probably going to happen, and fast. Expect all of the Primarchs to re-appear, one a month from now on.
8th edition will be Age of the Emperor. 30 years worth of fluff will be destroyed in a bid to sell big model kits.
I can't believe GW are really dumb enough to mess with the cash cow like this.
The Roboute model isn't even good.
Sorry, but how is all the other fluff destroyed by this? They didn't ret-con anything. You can just ignore it, you know? Nothing stopping you and your like-minded friends from playing any edition in existence or staying with 7th, or even using 8th and set up a campaign that doesn't involve any of this. If you don't like it just ignore it.
This is like when people complain about sequels or reboots ruining the original movie. No, the original is still stands on it's own. Anything added beyond that doesn't affect that unless you let it.
Albino Squirrel wrote: I don't quite understand why GW would even want to turn the game into battles between opposing huge characters. That's kind of what they did with Age of Sigmar. It seems like an army is supposed to be mostly one (or more) giant centerpiece model(s), with a handful of mooks. Seems counter productive. I mean, they must have sold many times more boxes of skeletons for fantasy than they sold Nagash kits, and presumably that means the regular guys are way more profitable, right? So why encourage an army of Nagash and a couple of big monsters, instead of like 100 skeletons and some characters?
They're trying to appeal to the best of both worlds I think. There's the people who are constantly adding to their armies and will lap up whatever it is that Games Workshop throw their way; special characters, updated models, new units, stompy megaknights, whatever.
There's also the other crowd who are content with their 3000pt force, see a new release of say... Militarum Tempestus and go "I mean the models look nice, but I already have two boxes worth of Karskin. I'll pass."
So what they do is release this giant "WOAH DUDE LOOK AT HOW COOL THAT IS BRUH" new, fancy model and they pull in the best of all the crowds. The people who buy everything will buy it anyway, the people with a 'complete' army want it as a centrepiece to round out their collection, the people who want it for the hobby aspect get a whopping great new project, the tournament crowd want it because god forbid GW ever release a Super Heavy that isn't broken beyond belief. Lil Timmy is also more likely to go "MUMMY, MUMMY, I WANT THE BIG GIANT MAN" over that £20 Tactical Squad anyway.
The story of 40k is "This is why we can't have nice things". From the war in heaven, the Eldar fall and to the heresy. It's about tragic events leading to the loss of progress, understanding, and greatness.
The imperium is over, and had been dieing for 10000 years.
rollawaythestone wrote: I see this as one way for them to turn up the heat between Imperium vs. Imperium battles. As schisms break out between conservative elements and those rallying around the returned Primarchs.
Exactly what I Hope. Make it so not all marines are on the same side, but not exactly in open warfare like the Heresy. But finally, after all these years, provide a legit in-game reason for Marine vs. Marine or Marine vs. Guard or Guard vs. Mechanicus etc. (basically any Imperium vs. Imperium) without it being down to hand-waving the battle as just a game, saying it's a training exercise/not a real fight, or playing "who is the heretic today".
The problem I'm seeing here is that Robot Girlyman appears to be too "pure" of a "good guy" for the themes and setting of the 40k universe. So what it looks like (if things go the schism route) is we're gonna have the "traditional" Imperium vs the "good Republic" or whatever, which really defeats the idea in 40k that nobody is completely good or altruistic. I mean, it really unbalances the scales when you've got an unequivocally pure faction in a universe built on grimdark themes. (They corrected this issue with the Tau by adding all the implications later on that their society is founded on brainwashing...)
That's why I'm hoping (like a few others have said) that Roboute turns out to be a complete donkey-cave/nutter in the face of the last 10,000 years of history. For example, having him look upon the Imperium and realize that Curze was right about what would happen - as well as seeing the complete domination of Lorgar's Lectitio Divinitatus throughout human culture - and deciding that it's time to destroy the Imperium and build a new one under his own personal rule. This would open up a lot of interesting narratives (especially with Roboute having such a hard-on for rules and doctrines, such as the Codex Astartes), driving the story towards an Imperial Civil War between two intractable ideologies (neither of which is clearly "good").
@OP:
Cypher model looks gorgeous. Hope I can pick one up at some point. The GK Grandmaster is kinda meh as far as GKs go (and I'm a big fanboy of the GK look, so take that as you will). Not a fan of the big guy though.
"Too poor and good guy" don't mesh with guilliman's character AT ALL. Specially if we go by FW's portrayal, where he basically is a non-bald perturabo with (marginally) less issues. But yeah, I'm seeing that.
Tamereth wrote: FFS they are really going there aren't they.
This is "The End Times", sci-fi edition. Every over the top BS thing you can think of is probably going to happen, and fast. Expect all of the Primarchs to re-appear, one a month from now on.
8th edition will be Age of the Emperor. 30 years worth of fluff will be destroyed in a bid to sell big model kits.
I can't believe GW are really dumb enough to mess with the cash cow like this.
The Roboute model isn't even good.
Nah, cash is exactly why they're messing with it.
Loyalist Primarchs will sell by the bucket loads. They've gradually been raising the SM arms race for years now. Fliers, Centurions, (allied) Knights, Wolf Chariots, etc. AoS was brought about to sell Fantasy Space Marines and it's working.[i][/u]
Forge World has turned into 'The Warhammer 30,000 Company' because people love their generic power armoured dudes. So obviously the next best thing is to turn 40k into Horus Heresy 2.0.
The 40k End Times will be the squat'ing of every non-Space Marine army. Unlike the End Times, most of the fandom will lap this up eagerly because, you guessed it, most of fandom are spared from their fate. Maybe not come 8th, but by 9th I'd be surprised if Imperial Guard and Sisters haven't been relegated to the position the Inquisition inhabit now. Xenos races will only be the purview of those box set board games as NPCs. Black Library will be nothing but books focusing on the exploits of the (loyalist) Primarchs in both the 41st millenium and what they were up to during their time away.
AoS working to sell Sigmarines is very much open to interpretation. It killed fantasy gaming around here. Nearly all the local shops that sold GW products have stopped since AoS launched.
GW is taking a massive gamble by changing up 40K like this, and it's not one they needed to take.
Think about it this way, What would the reaction be if the next star wars film said Jedi's powers were in fact caused by nanites and everyone could acquire them. Some people would love it, but a hell of a lot of fans would just walk away.
Tamereth wrote: FFS they are really going there aren't they.
This is "The End Times", sci-fi edition. Every over the top BS thing you can think of is probably going to happen, and fast. Expect all of the Primarchs to re-appear, one a month from now on.
8th edition will be Age of the Emperor. 30 years worth of fluff will be destroyed in a bid to sell big model kits.
I can't believe GW are really dumb enough to mess with the cash cow like this.
The Roboute model isn't even good.
Nah, cash is exactly why they're messing with it.
Loyalist Primarchs will sell by the bucket loads. They've gradually been raising the SM arms race for years now. Fliers, Centurions, (allied) Knights, Wolf Chariots, etc. AoS was brought about to sell Fantasy Space Marines and it's working.[i][/u]
Forge World has turned into 'The Warhammer 30,000 Company' because people love their generic power armoured dudes. So obviously the next best thing is to turn 40k into Horus Heresy 2.0.
The 40k End Times will be the squat'ing of every non-Space Marine army. Unlike the End Times, most of the fandom will lap this up eagerly because, you guessed it, most of fandom are spared from their fate. Maybe not come 8th, but by 9th I'd be surprised if Imperial Guard and Sisters haven't been relegated to the position the Inquisition inhabit now. Xenos races will only be the purview of those box set board games as NPCs. Black Library will be nothing but books focusing on the exploits of the (loyalist) Primarchs in both the 41st millenium and what they were up to during their time away.
AoS working to sell Sigmarines is very much open to interpretation. It killed fantasy gaming around here. Nearly all the local shops that sold GW products have stopped since AoS launched.
GW is taking a massive gamble by changing up 40K like this, and it's not one they needed to take.
Think about it this way, What would the reaction be if the next star wars film said Jedi's powers were in fact caused by nanites and everyone could acquire them. Some people would love it, but a hell of a lot of fans would just walk away.
Oh for feth's sake.
AoS IS SELLING AND SELLING WELL. They told their investors that. In the U.K., such statements are vetted for accuracy. Get over it.
There is feth ALL EVIDENCE that 40k is getting anything like the AoS treatment.
Sadly, as a big fan of rank'n'flank Warhammer, it'd been failing for a number of years - seemingly before the unfairly maligned 8th Edition.
40k clearly remains healthy. It's clearly carried the company during Warhammer's slow demise. They're advancing the timeline (which saddos have demanded for a long time), and everyone loses their gak WITHOUT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE BEYOND TRAGIC BASTARDS FEELING THAT CRTICISING A RANDOM COMPANY DESPITE NO EXPERTISE IN TNE FIELD SOMEHOW GIVES THEIR OWN LIFE FAILURES VALIDATION
casvalremdeikun wrote: All I have to say is that Guilliman better be usable by all Space Marine Chapters and that the formations in the book better not be Ultramarine exclusive. I suppose this is where we will be getting the Ultramarines equivalent to the different detachments from Angels of Death. Good for them, but it still sucks to be a Black Templars or Crimson Fists player. Still no specialized formations or detachments for us. :(
You mean like how magnus is for every CSM faction?
There is no reason rowboat will be for anyone but ultras except make sells.
And that's why he's probably "any IoM army HQ/LoW"
Tamereth wrote: FFS they are really going there aren't they.
This is "The End Times", sci-fi edition. Every over the top BS thing you can think of is probably going to happen, and fast. Expect all of the Primarchs to re-appear, one a month from now on.
8th edition will be Age of the Emperor. 30 years worth of fluff will be destroyed in a bid to sell big model kits.
I can't believe GW are really dumb enough to mess with the cash cow like this.
The Roboute model isn't even good.
Sorry, but how is all the other fluff destroyed by this? They didn't ret-con anything. You can just ignore it, you know? Nothing stopping you and your like-minded friends from playing any edition in existence or staying with 7th, or even using 8th and set up a campaign that doesn't involve any of this. If you don't like it just ignore it.
This is like when people complain about sequels or reboots ruining the original movie. No, the original is still stands on it's own. Anything added beyond that doesn't affect that unless you let it.
And Nigel Mansell is still the reigning F1 world champion. Coz they changed the rules and format of the races and I didn't like it, so the last 20 years don't count. and I can watch him race every sunday on TV..... Oh wait that's not how life works. Things change and can't be undone by ignoring them.
Having looked at the pictures more I really like the cypher model. But I feel buying the set for him would just encourage GW. I guess I only have myself to blame. Panic buying all those fantasy armies must have convinced GW that AoS was working.
For all that is holy... this has to be some random guy spouting gak on the internet.
While the fluff is cool and somewhat interesting, the execution... terrible.
This would leave every player that thought his DA loyalists in a hard position:
Repaint everything black
or
play traitors.
I will do neither of these. If this goes through, I've got a DA army to throw in the bin.
If it would be the other way round (traitors go black and loyalists stay with chapter colours) it would be... acceptable.
No more "DA are traitors" - no, THOSE are and I shoot them on sight!
Smells too much of "I made gak up after seeing Cypher with black dudes".
I hope.
many people wanted the story to advance, so here it is. i am willing to bet though the imperium secondus under the guiding genius of our Spiritual Liege will transform the ultramarines into thunderblast immortals complete with new models with some small subfactions i.e. your old space marines and space wolves to be auxillaries. other space marines like blood angels and dark angels and all the grey kinghts and deathwatch will swing to old school imperium who'll cook up lightningblast forevers to oppose.
Tamereth wrote: FFS they are really going there aren't they.
This is "The End Times", sci-fi edition. Every over the top BS thing you can think of is probably going to happen, and fast. Expect all of the Primarchs to re-appear, one a month from now on.
8th edition will be Age of the Emperor. 30 years worth of fluff will be destroyed in a bid to sell big model kits.
I can't believe GW are really dumb enough to mess with the cash cow like this.
The Roboute model isn't even good.
Nah, cash is exactly why they're messing with it.
Loyalist Primarchs will sell by the bucket loads. They've gradually been raising the SM arms race for years now. Fliers, Centurions, (allied) Knights, Wolf Chariots, etc. AoS was brought about to sell Fantasy Space Marines and it's working.[i][/u]
Forge World has turned into 'The Warhammer 30,000 Company' because people love their generic power armoured dudes. So obviously the next best thing is to turn 40k into Horus Heresy 2.0.
The 40k End Times will be the squat'ing of every non-Space Marine army. Unlike the End Times, most of the fandom will lap this up eagerly because, you guessed it, most of fandom are spared from their fate. Maybe not come 8th, but by 9th I'd be surprised if Imperial Guard and Sisters haven't been relegated to the position the Inquisition inhabit now. Xenos races will only be the purview of those box set board games as NPCs. Black Library will be nothing but books focusing on the exploits of the (loyalist) Primarchs in both the 41st millenium and what they were up to during their time away.
AoS working to sell Sigmarines is very much open to interpretation. It killed fantasy gaming around here. Nearly all the local shops that sold GW products have stopped since AoS launched.
GW is taking a massive gamble by changing up 40K like this, and it's not one they needed to take.
Think about it this way, What would the reaction be if the next star wars film said Jedi's powers were in fact caused by nanites and everyone could acquire them. Some people would love it, but a hell of a lot of fans would just walk away.
Omg gw just released a slightly larger space marine the end of 40k as we know it!!!
Less melodrama and more rumors, ffs RG isn't even a GMC or super heavy walker he's just a bulky space marine who cares.
Damn! I thought we were going to see the primarch of the first legion, since this book was rumored to have a heavy dark angel presence. Instead we get a very strange guilimon. It appears he is all legs and arms with a tiny body and head... reminds me of a monkey. How is it that forgeworld makes primarch models that scale correctly, are proportionate, and gorgeous, when gw makes them awkward, massively oversized, and fugly? One you want to display, the other you want to hide lol.
Third book? Check (looks to be good)
Cypher? Check! (gorgeous model too)
New dark angel rules/units? :( none so far, screwed again
New Grey Knight? Check! (Another great model)
Primarch? Check... but, ah, its an all legs fugly guillimon
Still an auto buy for cypher and the grey knight characters. It will be interesting to see if Cypher can be used with a DA army after the story progresses, or if he will be a character with a fallen squad that now supports imperial factions.
Not only that but the Imperial triumvirate exists solely as gear carriers for robust. They each gave him something according to the stream. So every major character introduced so far is only here to move Robutts plot forward and help him. The Mary Sue begins and total degradation of characters who don't serve marines in some way has begun.
455_PWR wrote: Damn! I thought we were going to see the primarch of the first legion, since this book was rumored to have a heavy dark angel presence. Instead we get a very strange guilimon. It appears he is all legs and arms with a tiny body and head... reminds me of a monkey. How is it that forgeworld makes primarch models that scale correctly, are proportionate, and gorgeous, when gw makes them awkward, massively oversized, and fugly? One you want to display, the other you want to hide lol.
Third book? Check (looks to be good)
Cypher? Check! (gorgeous model too)
New dark angel rules/units? :( none so far, screwed again
New Grey Knight? Check! (Another great model)
Primarch? Check... but, ah, its an all legs fugly guillimon
Still an auto buy for cypher and the grey knight characters. It will be interesting to see if Cypher can be used with a DA army after the story progresses, or if he will be a character with a fallen squad that now supports imperial factions.
At the very least there's a positive about the Rowboat model. You can easily convert a model that's already the proper size of a primarch..into other primarchs! I mean that or you could literally just buy most of them from Forgeworld...but now you have primarch-esque rules to fashion the others out of!
Holy gak. That fixes all the issues I had with the model, except for the sword.
Don't forget the tiny, tiny hand holding it. I'd have preferred if they gave him consistent macrodactyly as at least that would match the rest of the model's abnormal proportions. (and yes I know the left hand is a powerfist visually but it looks more to scale with the model's gigantism than the tiny left hand does)
Either way, Verviedi, your version is a big improvement over the garish blinged out armor of the official version.
Gamgee wrote: Not only that but the Imperial triumvirate exists solely as gear carriers for robust. They each gave him something according to the stream. So every major character introduced so far is only here to move Robutts plot forward and help him. The Mary Sue begins and total degradation of characters who don't serve marines in some way has begun.
455_PWR wrote: Damn! I thought we were going to see the primarch of the first legion, since this book was rumored to have a heavy dark angel presence. Instead we get a very strange guilimon. It appears he is all legs and arms with a tiny body and head... reminds me of a monkey. How is it that forgeworld makes primarch models that scale correctly, are proportionate, and gorgeous, when gw makes them awkward, massively oversized, and fugly? One you want to display, the other you want to hide lol.
Third book? Check (looks to be good)
Cypher? Check! (gorgeous model too)
New dark angel rules/units? :( none so far, screwed again
New Grey Knight? Check! (Another great model)
Primarch? Check... but, ah, its an all legs fugly guillimon
Still an auto buy for cypher and the grey knight characters. It will be interesting to see if Cypher can be used with a DA army after the story progresses, or if he will be a character with a fallen squad that now supports imperial factions.
has any of the other gathering storm books not contained rules units or formations and detachments? Holy gak the salt on this board is crazy today. There is a Giant picture of cypher leading fallen dark angels in an imperium faction setting and your salting about no dark Angels rules when we have zero other leaks!
Furthermore the proportions of RG look vastly better outside of the grainy, cluttered, bent, scanned white dwarf pic. The 360 view looks a lot better.
Gamgee wrote: Not only that but the Imperial triumvirate exists solely as gear carriers for robust. They each gave him something according to the stream. So every major character introduced so far is only here to move Robutts plot forward and help him. The Mary Sue begins and total degradation of characters who don't serve marines in some way has begun.
And some were saying that the introduction of Loyalist Primarch would not necessarly entails that pretty much all future fluff would be based on them What a terrible development
Tamereth wrote: FFS they are really going there aren't they.
This is "The End Times", sci-fi edition. Every over the top BS thing you can think of is probably going to happen, and fast. Expect all of the Primarchs to re-appear, one a month from now on.
8th edition will be Age of the Emperor. 30 years worth of fluff will be destroyed in a bid to sell big model kits.
I can't believe GW are really dumb enough to mess with the cash cow like this.
The Roboute model isn't even good.
Nah, cash is exactly why they're messing with it.
Loyalist Primarchs will sell by the bucket loads. They've gradually been raising the SM arms race for years now. Fliers, Centurions, (allied) Knights, Wolf Chariots, etc. AoS was brought about to sell Fantasy Space Marines and it's working.[i][/u]
Forge World has turned into 'The Warhammer 30,000 Company' because people love their generic power armoured dudes. So obviously the next best thing is to turn 40k into Horus Heresy 2.0.
The 40k End Times will be the squat'ing of every non-Space Marine army. Unlike the End Times, most of the fandom will lap this up eagerly because, you guessed it, most of fandom are spared from their fate. Maybe not come 8th, but by 9th I'd be surprised if Imperial Guard and Sisters haven't been relegated to the position the Inquisition inhabit now. Xenos races will only be the purview of those box set board games as NPCs. Black Library will be nothing but books focusing on the exploits of the (loyalist) Primarchs in both the 41st millenium and what they were up to during their time away.
AoS working to sell Sigmarines is very much open to interpretation. It killed fantasy gaming around here. Nearly all the local shops that sold GW products have stopped since AoS launched.
GW is taking a massive gamble by changing up 40K like this, and it's not one they needed to take.
Think about it this way, What would the reaction be if the next star wars film said Jedi's powers were in fact caused by nanites and everyone could acquire them. Some people would love it, but a hell of a lot of fans would just walk away.
Omg gw just released a slightly larger space marine the end of 40k as we know it!!!
Less melodrama and more rumors, ffs RG isn't even a GMC or super heavy walker he's just a bulky space marine who cares.
The end times started with Nagash being woken up. They weren't going to blow up the whole world, he was just a larger than normal necromancer.......
Remember it's not paranoia if they ARE trying to kill you.
Also has anyone seen the rules for Roboute. How do you know he's not a GMC?
It's like some of you guys imagine GW being staffed by evil cackling alien lizards rather than actual humans. "the total degradation of every character who doesn't serve marines in some way", "GW are pissing all over the background and making sure the stink of their contempt for it runs foetid through every page". You have to realise how comical this gak sounds. There is no contempt here. These are people doing what they love in a way you disagree with, not megalomaniacal crazies doing everything they can to piss you off.
Not at all. I know that some are happy that the game is turning into a super vilain vs super hero setting, but it's simply something I have no interest in.
I'm glad we haven't actually had to wait for the book after this book that hasn't been released yet to be released before we get the whinging about how terrible that book's background is.
Thairne wrote: For all that is holy... this has to be some random guy spouting gak on the internet.
While the fluff is cool and somewhat interesting, the execution... terrible.
This would leave every player that thought his DA loyalists in a hard position:
Repaint everything black
or
play traitors.
I will do neither of these. If this goes through, I've got a DA army to throw in the bin.
If it would be the other way round (traitors go black and loyalists stay with chapter colours) it would be... acceptable.
No more "DA are traitors" - no, THOSE are and I shoot them on sight!
Smells too much of "I made gak up after seeing Cypher with black dudes".
I hope.
Seriously hope you are right there mate, that stuff stinks to high heaven of trolling. But having seen the other stuff GW have been butchering the lore with of late I wouldn't put it past them...
This argument doesn't make any sense, For those that liked the 40k setting as it was, there's no need to see what development they made in it to know that they don't like it.
Vorian wrote: I'm glad we haven't actually had to wait for the book after this book that hasn't been released yet to be released before we get the whinging about how terrible that book's background is.
That's a real time saver
This argument doesn't make any sense, For those that liked the 40k setting as it was, there's no need to see what developments they made in it to know that they don't like it. Especially when the developments in the setting are clearly things that you don't wanted to see (the return of the primarchs).
You don't have to eat gak to know that you don't like it.
Again, I'm not saying that these changes are objectively bad, but personally, I think they are terrible, as the 40k setting was pretty much perfect as it was imo.
It's almost like a visual metaphor for how much better 30k is than 40k at this point. The gw version looks like something out of aos.
That FW model is really superior in every way. Can't agree with the AoS comment though, over-the-top AoS models all look a lot better than Roboute here IMO.
I a curious what sort of stats Guilliman will have. Unlike Magnus, I can't see GW giving him the MC type. Hopefully he packs stats that are 6+ like Magnus.
holy guacamole!!!
what an amazing leak to wake up to...
i love Fridays
Papa Smurf looks awesome with the helmet option..
the Grand Master will be a lot of fun to paint...
Cypher has got nice old school armor...
i think this is the best Triumvirate set...
even though i really like the other two, this one wins for me...
power armor all over the place
it is going to be really hard to choose which models out of these three Triumvirate boxes to paint up for the local convention's painting contest in May...
Vorian wrote: I'm glad we haven't actually had to wait for the book after this book that hasn't been released yet to be released before we get the whinging about how terrible that book's background is.
That's a real time saver
This argument doesn't make any sense, For those that liked the 40k setting as it was, there's no need to see what developments they made in it to know that they don't like it. Especially when the developments in the setting are clearly things that you don't wanted to see (the return of the primarchs).
You don't have to eat gak to know that you don't like it.
Again, I'm not saying that these changes are objectively bad, but personally, I think they are terrible, as the 40k setting was pretty much perfect as it was imo.
That's good for you. But that still doesn't stop it being silly to criticise developments by what people are imagining them to be.
Robert is a pretty sculpt, but ridiculously large.
he is about 1.5-2.0 times the height of the Space Marines around him. A bit too tall for sure, but not completely out of the range of what he should be. Most of the Primarch were considerably larger than the average marine. Only Alpharius was anywhere near the height of a marine.
To build on His Master's Voice's earlier photoshop, I'd ideally have preferred these dimensions. The waist, groin and thighs are increased 10% and the right hand 50% in size. Combined with ornate but not garish armor, THAT would be a 40k plastic primarch I could buy. The emperor photoshop conversion posted earlier admittedly works as well though (spoilered below).
insaniak wrote: Fitting the fluff isn't the problem... It's absurd enough in the fiction, but they get away with it by the writers just largely ignoring it.
Seeing it physically on the table just highlights how silly it looks for the Primarchs to be that tall.
Indeed. Imagine him trying to operate in any human scale environment. Or to get in a transport.
insaniak wrote: Fitting the fluff isn't the problem... It's absurd enough in the fiction, but they get away with it by the writers just largely ignoring it.
Seeing it physically on the table just highlights how silly it looks for the Primarchs to be that tall.
Indeed. Imagine him trying to operate in any human scale environment. Or to get in a transport.
Pretty sure thats why Terra built it's hallways huge and expanding across the planet.
Mymearan wrote: It's like some of you guys imagine GW being staffed by evil cackling alien lizards rather than actual humans. "the total degradation of every character who doesn't serve marines in some way", "GW are pissing all over the background and making sure the stink of their contempt for it runs foetid through every page". You have to realise how comical this gak sounds. There is no contempt here. These are people doing what they love in a way you disagree with, not megalomaniacal crazies doing everything they can to piss you off.
How much experience have you had working directly with marketing departments from any industry? I can assure you they are all cackling alien lizards. I'm sure there are plenty of wonderful people at GW, and can guarantee they've had run ins with their sales/ marketing departments and come out the loser. It's just the way things work.
End times or not, you can't defend the motives of a marketing department.
Mymearan wrote: It's like some of you guys imagine GW being staffed by evil cackling alien lizards rather than actual humans. "the total degradation of every character who doesn't serve marines in some way", "GW are pissing all over the background and making sure the stink of their contempt for it runs foetid through every page". You have to realise how comical this gak sounds. There is no contempt here. These are people doing what they love in a way you disagree with, not megalomaniacal crazies doing everything they can to piss you off.
Remember, the anonymity of the internet allows people to let all of their angst out - including expressing it in the most immature and crazy ways, and the numbers of people allow people of any bent to find others with the same opinion so that they can self-select into a little group that reinforces their behaviour or delusions. I don't like the idea of "flipping" two chapters, but if done in an interesting way that doesn't mess everything up (and people's existing models) then I'm open to seeing what happens.
Marine on marine battles are common enough anyway IRL, and a fractured Imperium isn't anything new - since it's already there in the fluff with many examples of Space Wolves vs Dark Angels, GK slaughtering whole IG regiments just for seeing a Daemon, The Badab War (where chapters like the Lamenters weren't even "bad guys"), the background and history of chapters like Minotaurs and Carcharodons, the "Months of Shame" (1st Battle of Armageddon - GK vs SW), the story of the Celestial Lions... it goes on and on. Two "chapters" of nominally "loyalist" chapters of Dark Angels sounds much more interesting than Cypher and The Fallen being boring CSM. An Imperium of Ultramar led by a returned and horrified Guilliman, bordering and (mostly) allied with the Imperium of the Administratum sounds potentially interesting - a 40k version of the Eastern and Western Roman Empires. Alpha Legion potentially returning to the fold - or some of them, anyway - or are they?. Again more interesting than simply another set of guys covered in spikes, stars and tentacles.
Yeah, this has potential. If they do a good job with it. I hope they do, and I've got more trust in the GW of the last couple of years, especially with the FW influence - than I do in the GW of the last decade up to and including The End Times and the launch of AoS.
I look forward to all the people who can't handle additions and moving on of the storyline, etc moving on to Warpath and other games while selling their 40k forces off cheap to people like me who can handle multiple settings in the timeline and ignore stupid gak added to "canon" - and of course the occasional flaming video of complete maturity. (skip to 8:21)
warboss wrote: To build on His Master's Voice's earlier photoshop, I'd ideally have preferred these dimensions. The waist, groin and thighs are increased 10% and the right hand 50% in size. Combined with ornate but not garish armor, THAT would be a 40k plastic primarch I could buy. The emperor photoshop conversion posted earlier admittedly works as well though (spoilered below).
There was something that just wasn't sitting right with me about the model and I figured out it was that filigree. It just doesn't look right at all and the photoshop improves the look of the model immensely.
Quarterdime wrote: Guilliman's face when he takes his first look at the Imperium after 9,000 years.
Also, my face when it turns out he healed in stasis.
Latest rumors are that he was raised by the combined work of Cawl and Yvraine (WHO LET THAT ELDAR ANYWHERE NEAR A PRIMARCH!?!), not that he healed himself while in stasis.
Quarterdime wrote: Guilliman's face when he takes his first look at the Imperium after 9,000 years.
Also, my face when it turns out he healed in stasis.
Latest rumors are that he was raised by the combined work of Cawl and Yvraine (WHO LET THAT ELDAR ANYWHERE NEAR A PRIMARCH!?!), not that he healed himself while in stasis.
Probably. Still, there's that possibility. Maybe it'll be a moment where Cawl says something like "It looks like he's already been recovering" or something.
If I were Games Workshop, I would emphasize the idea that it's just wishful thinking on the part of the Ultramarines by having Guilliman flatline AS SOON as they turn that stasis off, only to be resuscitated by whatever the hell Cawl and co. are going to do to him.
It's almost like a visual metaphor for how much better 30k is than 40k at this point. The gw version looks like something out of aos.
Nah the FW Guilliman has always been ugly imo too. I've never been a big fan of the ultra marines primarch.
The 40k guilliman isn't perfect but the 30k one, I imagine the designer just staring at a piece of white bread thinking 'I need my model to somehow be blander and less interesting than this...'
It's funny, I'm not too keen on 40k rowboat as he is.
That emperor photoshop however, they gave him hair, dropping the huge gun, changed the pad styling and painted him gold.
Looks amazing like that.
Jackal wrote: It's funny, I'm not too keen on 40k rowboat as he is.
That emperor photoshop however, they gave him hair, dropping the huge gun, changed the pad styling and painted him gold.
Looks amazing like that.
That's essential the only reason I want him.
Do we have any ideas yet on a release time?
March according to what what posted earlier in the thread. I don't know what time of the day though.
for the fluff only thing guilliman is missing is a shark (carcharodon? harhar) underneath him
but i like the model itself, im completely happy with it if i played loyalist sheep, i think too the way the painted it isnt too appealing too pastel and flat or something.
I'm calling this now: this will usher in a new era and a new way to play 40k- All models will now be sold with SQUARE BASES.
Imagine! Soon we'll be able to rank up our Space Marines into tightly packed units! Rank bonuses and flanking manoeuvres will abound! Frag Missiles will actually do something! Fenrisian wolves and Yvraine's weird cat thing living together!
I, for one, cannot wait.
[edit]Also, why has nobody photoshopped Rowboat onto a surfboard yet?[/edit]
In Wrath of Magnus, the Changeling lets at least one of the Fallen escape. I don't know the lore on Cyrus. Was it him? He has a sword that looks like it might be Lion's. It was Cyrus, wasn't it?
In Wrath of Magnus, the Changeling lets at least one of the Fallen escape. I don't know the lore on Cyrus. Was it him? He has a sword that looks like it might be Lion's. It was Cyrus, wasn't it?
Cypher has always been out and about on his own. This is not who was let out
In Wrath of Magnus, the Changeling lets at least one of the Fallen escape. I don't know the lore on Cyrus. Was it him? He has a sword that looks like it might be Lion's. It was Cyrus, wasn't it?
Cypher has always been out and about on his own. This is not who was let out
Oh, ok. I wonder if that plot point will even go anywhere...
BlaxicanX wrote: - Have an event focused around Cadia, the most important Imperial Guard system in the Galaxy behind Terra.
- The Imperial Guard are completely useless and have to be bailed out by the Space Marines.
Is this the most fluff-accurate event GW has ever done?
Celestine and the Sisters bailed out the Imperial Guard.
The Imperial Guard held the line until the planet literally cracked open to cover the Space Marines running away with their tails between their legs.
No no, Cadia got destroyed and Chaos is rampaging across the Galaxy.
Time for Guilliman to clean up the mess.
You'd think they'd add some sort of Guard character as part as the Imperium triumvirate, but I am willing to be its going to T:Imperium and T:Space Marines with the Guard being left out, again.
This Gathering Storm stuff all seems to be REALLY out of left field. How did Cyrus get involved in the defense of Cadia? Or was he already on Ultramar? That'd make even less sense. How he was even able to approach Guilliman... Did they not know? Oh, wait, they don't know. Well that's actually kind of cool. They let him right in because they don't know about the Fallen. But still, how did Cyrus A: Know what was going on enough to be at Guilliman's revival, and B: Manage to actually get there? I mean, Cyrus, of all people? This isn't as MacGuffin-y as Trazyn, but still...
I mean I guess if possessed Eldar are allowed to approach Guilliman...
With that blown up picture it at least shows that the braziers are not part of his armor , I was really questioning that design before I got a better look.
BlaxicanX wrote: - Have an event focused around Cadia, the most important Imperial Guard system in the Galaxy behind Terra.
- The Imperial Guard are completely useless and have to be bailed out by the Space Marines.
Is this the most fluff-accurate event GW has ever done?
Celestine and the Sisters bailed out the Imperial Guard.
The Imperial Guard held the line until the planet literally cracked open to cover the Space Marines running away with their tails between their legs.
No no, Cadia got destroyed and Chaos is rampaging across the Galaxy.
Time for Guilliman to clean up the mess.
You'd think they'd add some sort of Guard character as part as the Imperium triumvirate, but I am willing to be its going to T:Imperium and T:Space Marines with the Guard being left out, again.
I figured there'd be a Chaos Triumverite or something, but I guess Chaos just gets too much love. I mean WOAH guys, Thousand Sons was a bit much, let's tone it down for another 12 years.
insaniak wrote: Robert is a pretty sculpt, but ridiculously large.
See I don't see why that's a problem. Primarchs to me have always been titanic individuals far larger than regular humans, so much so that it wouldn't be fair to even call them human any more. They're genetically engineered supermen created by someone who himself was far beyond human, both in stature and intelligence/power/abilities.
If he was the same size as his brothers (like the original Russ mini from back in the RT days) it would feel strange. It wouldn't be as grand.
Quarterdime wrote: This Gathering Storm stuff all seems to be REALLY out of left field. How did Cyrus get involved in the defense of Cadia? Or was he already on Ultramar? That'd make even less sense. How he was even able to approach Guilliman... Did they not know? Oh, wait, they don't know. Well that's actually kind of cool. They let him right in because they don't know about the Fallen. But still, how did Cyrus A: Know what was going on enough to be at Guilliman's revival, and B: Manage to actually get there? I mean, Cyrus, of all people? This isn't as MacGuffin-y as Trazyn, but still...
Dunno about this Cyrus guy, but Cypher has the ability to appear in really strange places.
Quarterdime wrote: This Gathering Storm stuff all seems to be REALLY out of left field. How did Cyrus get involved in the defense of Cadia? Or was he already on Ultramar? That'd make even less sense. How he was even able to approach Guilliman... Did they not know? Oh, wait, they don't know. Well that's actually kind of cool. They let him right in because they don't know about the Fallen. But still, how did Cyrus A: Know what was going on enough to be at Guilliman's revival, and B: Manage to actually get there? I mean, Cyrus, of all people? This isn't as MacGuffin-y as Trazyn, but still...
Dunno about this Cyrus guy, but Cypher has the ability to appear in really strange places.
Well, Cyrus was pretty sneaky himself. Guilliman probably woke up because the Blood Ravens stole his Stasis field generator.
insaniak wrote: Robert is a pretty sculpt, but ridiculously large.
See I don't see why that's a problem. Primarchs to me have always been titanic individuals far larger than regular humans, so much so that it wouldn't be fair to even call them human any more. They're genetically engineered supermen created by someone who himself was far beyond human, both in stature and intelligence/power/abilities.
If he was the same size as his brothers (like the original Russ mini from back in the RT days) it would feel strange. It wouldn't be as grand.
It's a problem because it looks absurd.
It doesn't look 'grand' to me. It just looks like a human that's been sculpted in a different scale.
And it's a problem every time he wants to walk through a door.
Making them slightly larger than regular Marines would have still been impressive while maintaining some semblance of practicality. Making them twice the size just shatters suspension of disbelief through being thoroughly impractical and looking stupid.
insaniak wrote: Fitting the fluff isn't the problem... It's absurd enough in the fiction, but they get away with it by the writers just largely ignoring it.
Seeing it physically on the table just highlights how silly it looks for the Primarchs to be that tall.
Agreed, FW pretty much reached the absurdity limit and a lot of the extra height on their primarchs comes from the heroic basing. When the pirmarch looks like they 'd barely fit in the maw of a thunderhawk it's a bit much.
insaniak wrote: Robert is a pretty sculpt, but ridiculously large.
See I don't see why that's a problem. Primarchs to me have always been titanic individuals far larger than regular humans, so much so that it wouldn't be fair to even call them human any more. They're genetically engineered supermen created by someone who himself was far beyond human, both in stature and intelligence/power/abilities.
If he was the same size as his brothers (like the original Russ mini from back in the RT days) it would feel strange. It wouldn't be as grand.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Guys, one Primarch isn't going to wreck anything. There were 18 at one point with Big E and they still couldn't conquer the whole galaxy easily. It took centuries in the Great Crusade.
One Primarch means a story shift, not a radical beating of all the enemies of Mankind.
There seems to be a lot of concern about 40k moving towards big models with a few minions. I did some checking. Since the start of 2015 GW has released 12 infantry kits, 6 vehicle kits and six really big kits. That does not seem too bad a balance. They have gone a bit crazy with the standard sized heroes though, about 30 in the same timeframe (8 already this year).
Regarding these kits I will share the common opinion. Roboute is not great, though the helmet option is better. The Grey knight is a solid plastic Hq choice for that army ( expect to see him in a start collecting box soon). Cypher is amazing, exactly how I pictured him in my head. I have been intensely interested in his story for the last 20 years so I am glad that we may finally get some answers.
Thrilled about Guilliman returning, also love the model. I think a lot of the reason he's on the large side scale-wise is to at least SOMEWHAT match up to Magnus, who is massive, and because having him be the same size as a Centurion would just be lame.
Chikout wrote: There seems to be a lot of concern about 40k moving towards big models with a few minions. I did some checking. Since the start of 2015 GW has released 12 infantry kits, 6 vehicle kits and six really big kits. That does not seem too bad a balance. They have gone a bit crazy with the standard sized heroes though, about 30 in the same timeframe (8 already this year).
Regarding these kits I will share the common opinion. Roboute is not great, though the helmet option is better. The Grey knight is a solid plastic Hq choice for that army ( expect to see him in a start collecting box soon). Cypher is amazing, exactly how I pictured him in my head. I have been intensely interested in his story for the last 20 years so I am glad that we may finally get some answers.
Heros/named characters are the last major area where models need transition from resin/metal to plastic. Yes some armies still have large parts of their range in resin and need updates, but as a whole a strong majority of all units are in plastic now.
Chikout wrote: There seems to be a lot of concern about 40k moving towards big models with a few minions. I did some checking. Since the start of 2015 GW has released 12 infantry kits, 6 vehicle kits and six really big kits. That does not seem too bad a balance. They have gone a bit crazy with the standard sized heroes though, about 30 in the same timeframe (8 already this year).
Regarding these kits I will share the common opinion. Roboute is not great, though the helmet option is better. The Grey knight is a solid plastic Hq choice for that army ( expect to see him in a start collecting box soon). Cypher is amazing, exactly how I pictured him in my head. I have been intensely interested in his story for the last 20 years so I am glad that we may finally get some answers.
Heros/named characters are the last major area where models need transition from resin/metal to plastic. Yes some armies still have large parts of their range in resin and need updates, but as a whole a strong majority of all units are in plastic now.
Vorian wrote: I'm glad we haven't actually had to wait for the book after this book that hasn't been released yet to be released before we get the whinging about how terrible that book's background is.
That's a real time saver
This argument doesn't make any sense, For those that liked the 40k setting as it was, there's no need to see what developments they made in it to know that they don't like it. Especially when the developments in the setting are clearly things that you don't wanted to see (the return of the primarchs).
You don't have to eat gak to know that you don't like it.
Again, I'm not saying that these changes are objectively bad, but personally, I think they are terrible, as the 40k setting was pretty much perfect as it was imo.
Liked it "as it was"? Pretty much perfect?
When? A month ago before The Gathering Storm?
When Squats were squatted? Or back when they were a big part of the Imperium? When GSC were still a dim thing in the background, or when they returned in a big way? Before or after Tau and Kroot were created and inserted into the game. Before Necrons, or with their original fluff or their retconned fluff? Imperial Army, Imperial Guard or Astra Militarium? When Sisters had a real, accessible army, or when they quietly disappeared? When The Battle for the Farm was a "current event"? Back when all Dark Angels wore black armour? Or afterwards when an WD cover artist's misunderstanding of the brief changed their livery forever more? When all Eldar were pirates? Or when their craftworlds were added in? Or much later when their Dark brethren and their mutual hatred were added? Or later again when their uneasy alliances were added in?
The background and story has always slowly been moving forward, and retconning the setting's past has been happening just ad often as new things added have their "oh, that's always been there" written in. This is just more of the same. If you dislike it just play your games in the part of the timeline that fits with your favourite "version" of the total background. Treat the 40k timeline more like Battletech or Middle Earth or even Star Wars.
Chikout wrote: There seems to be a lot of concern about 40k moving towards big models with a few minions. I did some checking. Since the start of 2015 GW has released 12 infantry kits, 6 vehicle kits and six really big kits. That does not seem too bad a balance. They have gone a bit crazy with the standard sized heroes though, about 30 in the same timeframe (8 already this year).
Regarding these kits I will share the common opinion. Roboute is not great, though the helmet option is better. The Grey knight is a solid plastic Hq choice for that army ( expect to see him in a start collecting box soon). Cypher is amazing, exactly how I pictured him in my head. I have been intensely interested in his story for the last 20 years so I am glad that we may finally get some answers.
Heros/named characters are the last major area where models need transition from resin/metal to plastic. Yes some armies still have large parts of their range in resin and need updates, but as a whole a strong majority of all units are in plastic now.
Unless you play sisters.
Sisters don't have all that many unique sculpts, so the 4 plastic models they have now is a not insignificant fraction of their total model range :p
insaniak wrote: Robert is a pretty sculpt, but ridiculously large.
See I don't see why that's a problem. Primarchs to me have always been titanic individuals far larger than regular humans, so much so that it wouldn't be fair to even call them human any more. They're genetically engineered supermen created by someone who himself was far beyond human, both in stature and intelligence/power/abilities.
If he was the same size as his brothers (like the original Russ mini from back in the RT days) it would feel strange. It wouldn't be as grand.
It's a problem because it looks absurd.
It doesn't look 'grand' to me. It just looks like a human that's been sculpted in a different scale.
And it's a problem every time he wants to walk through a door.
Making them slightly larger than regular Marines would have still been impressive while maintaining some semblance of practicality. Making them twice the size just shatters suspension of disbelief through being thoroughly impractical and looking stupid.
YMMV, obviously.
Was just discussing this with my brother. Primarchs ALL look silly to us as sculptors because they don't look super natural or Marines plus, they simply look like marines from a 54mm scale line designed for your showcase, stuffed onto the table with 28mm scale marines. Magnus works much better because he doesn't look like a marine or even remotely human, all the good primarchs are going to look silly on the table IMHO.
Vorian wrote: I'm glad we haven't actually had to wait for the book after this book that hasn't been released yet to be released before we get the whinging about how terrible that book's background is.
That's a real time saver
This argument doesn't make any sense, For those that liked the 40k setting as it was, there's no need to see what developments they made in it to know that they don't like it. Especially when the developments in the setting are clearly things that you don't wanted to see (the return of the primarchs).
You don't have to eat gak to know that you don't like it.
Again, I'm not saying that these changes are objectively bad, but personally, I think they are terrible, as the 40k setting was pretty much perfect as it was imo.
Liked it "as it was"? Pretty much perfect?
When? A month ago before The Gathering Storm?
When Squats were squatted? Or back when they were a big part of the Imperium? When GSC were still a dim thing in the background, or when they returned in a big way? Before or after Tau and Kroot were created and inserted into the game. Before Necrons, or with their original fluff or their retconned fluff? Imperial Army, Imperial Guard or Astra Militarium? When Sisters had a real, accessible army, or when they quietly disappeared? When The Battle for the Farm was a "current event"? Back when all Dark Angels wore black armour? Or afterwards when an WD cover artist's misunderstanding of the brief changed their livery forever more? When all Eldar were pirates? Or when their craftworlds were added in? Or much later when their Dark brethren and their mutual hatred were added? Or later again when their uneasy alliances were added in?
The background and story has always slowly been moving forward, and retconning the setting's past has been happening just ad often as new things added have their "oh, that's always been there" written in. This is just more of the same. If you dislike it just play your games in the part of the timeline that fits with your favourite "version" of the total background. Treat the 40k timeline more like Battletech or Middle Earth or even Star Wars.
So as someone who never really cared much for the Horus Heresy, does anyone mind explaining to me how Guilliman's armor changed so much from his Forge World version if he was kept in stasis ever since the days following the heresy?
Quarterdime wrote: So as someone who never really cared much for the Horus Heresy, does anyone mind explaining to me how Guilliman's armor changed so much from his Forge World version if he was kept in stasis ever since the days following the heresy?
Do the Primarchs change armor a lot?
It's not the same suit of armour. The HH era is the Armour of Reason. The new set is called the Armour of Fates.
And yes, Primarchs have multiple sets of armour and weapons.
So Cawl has a hand in resurrecting Guilliman. Cawl is said to be carrying something that really upsets Abaddon. Honestly, I can't say I think that thing is related to Guilliman.
insaniak wrote: Robert is a pretty sculpt, but ridiculously large.
See I don't see why that's a problem. Primarchs to me have always been titanic individuals far larger than regular humans, so much so that it wouldn't be fair to even call them human any more. They're genetically engineered supermen created by someone who himself was far beyond human, both in stature and intelligence/power/abilities.
If he was the same size as his brothers (like the original Russ mini from back in the RT days) it would feel strange. It wouldn't be as grand.
It's a problem because it looks absurd.
It doesn't look 'grand' to me. It just looks like a human that's been sculpted in a different scale.
And it's a problem every time he wants to walk through a door.
Making them slightly larger than regular Marines would have still been impressive while maintaining some semblance of practicality. Making them twice the size just shatters suspension of disbelief through being thoroughly impractical and looking stupid.
YMMV, obviously.
COuldn't say it any better. Looks like a mini for Inq, not for WH40k
Vorian wrote: I'm glad we haven't actually had to wait for the book after this book that hasn't been released yet to be released before we get the whinging about how terrible that book's background is. That's a real time saver
This argument doesn't make any sense, For those that liked the 40k setting as it was, there's no need to see what developments they made in it to know that they don't like it. Especially when the developments in the setting are clearly things that you don't wanted to see (the return of the primarchs).
You don't have to eat gak to know that you don't like it. Again, I'm not saying that these changes are objectively bad, but personally, I think they are terrible, as the 40k setting was pretty much perfect as it was imo.
Liked it "as it was"? Pretty much perfect?
When? A month ago before The Gathering Storm?
When Squats were squatted? Or back when they were a big part of the Imperium? When GSC were still a dim thing in the background, or when they returned in a big way? Before or after Tau and Kroot were created and inserted into the game. Before Necrons, or with their original fluff or their retconned fluff? Imperial Army, Imperial Guard or Astra Militarium? When Sisters had a real, accessible army, or when they quietly disappeared? When The Battle for the Farm was a "current event"? Back when all Dark Angels wore black armour? Or afterwards when an WD cover artist's misunderstanding of the brief changed their livery forever more? When all Eldar were pirates? Or when their craftworlds were added in? Or much later when their Dark brethren and their mutual hatred were added? Or later again when their uneasy alliances were added in?
The background and story has always slowly been moving forward, and retconning the setting's past has been happening just ad often as new things added have their "oh, that's always been there" written in. This is just more of the same. If you dislike it just play your games in the part of the timeline that fits with your favourite "version" of the total background. Treat the 40k timeline more like Battletech or Middle Earth or even Star Wars.
Most of the changes you've described happened more than a decade and a half ago It's pretty obvious that I wasn't referring to RT era 40k nor 2nd edition. The only real semi recent change you've listed was the one to the Necrons Background, and I'm sure you do know that the Necrons role in the setting is a lot less central than the one of the IOM
And filling some parts of the universe or reintroducing some old armies is not the same thing as moving the time line forward and changing some of the most canonicals stuff in the setting. But then, I have no doubt that you also know that and you're arguing for the sake of it.
Vorian wrote: I'm glad we haven't actually had to wait for the book after this book that hasn't been released yet to be released before we get the whinging about how terrible that book's background is.
That's a real time saver
This argument doesn't make any sense, For those that liked the 40k setting as it was, there's no need to see what developments they made in it to know that they don't like it. Especially when the developments in the setting are clearly things that you don't wanted to see (the return of the primarchs).
You don't have to eat gak to know that you don't like it.
Again, I'm not saying that these changes are objectively bad, but personally, I think they are terrible, as the 40k setting was pretty much perfect as it was imo.
Liked it "as it was"? Pretty much perfect?
When? A month ago before The Gathering Storm?
When Squats were squatted? Or back when they were a big part of the Imperium? When GSC were still a dim thing in the background, or when they returned in a big way? Before or after Tau and Kroot were created and inserted into the game. Before Necrons, or with their original fluff or their retconned fluff? Imperial Army, Imperial Guard or Astra Militarium? When Sisters had a real, accessible army, or when they quietly disappeared? When The Battle for the Farm was a "current event"? Back when all Dark Angels wore black armour? Or afterwards when an WD cover artist's misunderstanding of the brief changed their livery forever more? When all Eldar were pirates? Or when their craftworlds were added in? Or much later when their Dark brethren and their mutual hatred were added? Or later again when their uneasy alliances were added in?
The background and story has always slowly been moving forward, and retconning the setting's past has been happening just ad often as new things added have their "oh, that's always been there" written in. This is just more of the same. If you dislike it just play your games in the part of the timeline that fits with your favourite "version" of the total background. Treat the 40k timeline more like Battletech or Middle Earth or even Star Wars.
Most of the changes you've described happened more than a decade and a half ago It's pretty obvious that I wasn't referring to RT era 40k nor 2nd edition. The only real semi recent change you've listed was the one to the Necrons Background, and I'm sure you do know that the Necrons role in the setting is a lot less central than the one of the IOM
RT or 2nd Edi fluff was more or less just Fantasy in Space with a Copy&Paste of Dune and 3rd added Starship Troopers while removing the to opvious fantasy stuff
and 40k is constantly changing with major things like Necrons (their change had a huge impact to the endtimes setting) or Tau, but also small stuff like with the Thousand Sons.
While I love the Dune and Starship Troopers stuff (the books) if 40k would finally move away of just being a melting pot of them and become something unique
I'm not sure I understand all the complaints about how "nothing can compete with a Primarch, the Imperium finally jumped the shark bringing him back, because now everyone will lose to them".
Guilliman basically ran the Imperium for quite a long while after the Heresy Ended. Several Primarchs are active on the Chaos side, with daemonic boosts above their normal primarch abilities, at that. Hell, Guilliman has already been "killed" once!
I personally like the figure, and I hope there is a schism in the fluff based around Ultramar, as it would add greatly to the plotline.
kodos wrote: While I love the Dune and Starship Troopers stuff (the books) if 40k would finally move away of just being a melting pot of them and become something unique
The setting has done so years ago. 40k is very much its own thing now.
AegisGrimm wrote: I'm not sure I understand all the complaints about how "nothing can compete with a Primarch, the Imperium finally jumped the shark bringing him back, because now everyone will lose to them".
Guilliman basically ran the Imperium for quite a long while after the Heresy Ended. Several Primarchs are active on the Chaos side, with daemonic boosts above their normal primarch abilities, at that. Hell, Guilliman has already been "killed" once!
I personally like the figure, and I hope there is a schism in the fluff based around Ultramar, as it would add greatly to the plotline.
Never underestimate a geek's ability to whine about something they never had any intention of buying.
I'm still quite sure that's the Emperor's sword. But I will look forward to Corax's return.
Plus it would be cool if Fulgrim came back, right before he was possessed her renounced Chaos (if I remember correctly) and if Ynead kills Slaanesh then his/hers/its daemons would lose power too. Right?
Mr_Rose wrote: So, anyway, what's the over/under on bobby's head being the only part of them they kept?
A literal figurehead on a wholly mechanical body…?
I'd imagine the miniature would be way more Mechanicus in nature if they made him the 40k equivalent of Robocop.
Wow - I always thought a normal space marine was like 8-8.5 feet tall, with a Primarch being a giant at like 10 feet tall. Apparently Primarch's are more like 16 feet tall.
It seems like pretty good model - they just need to scale it to 70% of it's current size.
Schmapdi wrote: Wow - I always thought a normal space marine was like 8-8.5 feet tall, with a Primarch being a giant at like 10 feet tall. Apparently Primarch's are more like 16 feet tall.
It seems like pretty good model - they just need to scale it to 70% of it's current size.
Felt the same way about Magnus too. Would probably be cool if he was scaled down, but as of now, an abomination of a ''mini''. Not too keen on where GW is going right now. It seems it's all about the mass consumption of shiny (constantly bigger) new toy's one after another (I mean, GSC were released less than 6 months ago and the game seems to have already gone far past them). Will take a wait and see approach until 8th edition drops as it's fairly obvious it's gonna bring some serious changes.
Schmapdi wrote: Wow - I always thought a normal space marine was like 8-8.5 feet tall, with a Primarch being a giant at like 10 feet tall. Apparently Primarch's are more like 16 feet tall.
It seems like pretty good model - they just need to scale it to 70% of it's current size.
Felt the same way about Magnus too. Would probably be cool if he was scaled down, but as of now, an abomination of a ''mini''. Not too keen on where GW is going right now. It seems it's all about the mass consumption of shiny (constantly bigger) new toy's one after another (I mean, GSC were released less than 6 months ago and the game seems to have gone far past them in the meantime). Will take a wait and see approach until 8th edition drops as it's fairly obvious it's gonna bring some serious changes.
At least he's spent a gakload of time in the Eye and has been elevated to Daemonhood. Roboute better have some serious cybernetics written into his return to justify that beast of a miniature.
Mr_Rose wrote: So, anyway, what's the over/under on bobby's head being the only part of them they kept?
A literal figurehead on a wholly mechanical body…?
I'd imagine the miniature would be way more Mechanicus in nature if they made him the 40k equivalent of Robocop.
I dunno; Cawl is old enough to realise that there's a reason that the Imperium makes its gear like that, and skilled enough to engineer his stuff within those constraints. Plus the exterior design could easily be a shell over a bunch of distinctly "Mechanicus" parts. Seriously, look at the suits knees: exposed pistons instead of a flexible environmental seal?
Plus, this way there's room for the haemonculi to have fun with the original body, like regrowing a new head on it and using it to play both sides against the middle by claiming it as the "true" Guilleman….
His Master's Voice wrote: Dunno about the fracturing. We already had Horus Heresy, no need to revisit that idea.
Not to mention, a split Imperium is an Imperium losing even fast than it does now.
That's Heresy! Come here to receive your complimentary bolter round
EmberlordofFire8 wrote: I'm still quite sure that's the Emperor's sword. But I will look forward to Corax's return.
Plus it would be cool if Fulgrim came back, right before he was possessed her renounced Chaos (if I remember correctly) and if Ynead kills Slaanesh then his/hers/its daemons would lose power too. Right?
Yes, I am not quite sure how Slaanesh will end up. G.W wants to squat it ala A.O.S for a P.C friendly model range. If they do I'm not sure how they would deal with Fulgrim's possession, because the Daemon would still be alive without its master? Also what would have to all the Noise Marines? Would loosing their patron take away the 'gifts' they received? Would the Emperor's Children become extinct in mass suicide, devoid of sensation without being able to cope with good old mundane reality?
ekwatts wrote: It has been repeatedly stated that GW are not squatting Slaanesh. Please stop repeating something that is untrue.
#
Hey its 'alternative facts' We don't know what's in store till the next set of legitimate leaks, hopefully everyone gets something they will like out of this lead up to 8th edition...
insaniak wrote: Fitting the fluff isn't the problem... It's absurd enough in the fiction, but they get away with it by the writers just largely ignoring it.
Seeing it physically on the table just highlights how silly it looks for the Primarchs to be that tall.
Agreed, FW pretty much reached the absurdity limit and a lot of the extra height on their primarchs comes from the heroic basing. When the pirmarch looks like they 'd barely fit in the maw of a thunderhawk it's a bit much.
insaniak wrote: Robert is a pretty sculpt, but ridiculously large.
See I don't see why that's a problem. Primarchs to me have always been titanic individuals far larger than regular humans, so much so that it wouldn't be fair to even call them human any more. They're genetically engineered supermen created by someone who himself was far beyond human, both in stature and intelligence/power/abilities.
If he was the same size as his brothers (like the original Russ mini from back in the RT days) it would feel strange. It wouldn't be as grand.
Contemptor dread size still seems a bit much no?
I have to agree here- I just feel like someone brought their Inquisitor mini's to a 40k game. The sculpt is great mind- just a bit goofy looking when stood next to a.normal marine.
Honestly, at this point, it should be a bannable offense for posting the idea of Slaanesh being squatted. It derails discussion for pages at a time. It adds nothing to the discussion. GW has repeatedly said it isn't happening. Stop doing it.
So here is my theory: Cawl's casket has the body of Konrad Curze in it. Which is why Abaddon hearing the name has him so worked up. He knows Curze is an X-factor. Or it has Gavriel Loken in it. Which is what the relation to Davin is.
Mr_Rose wrote: So, anyway, what's the over/under on bobby's head being the only part of them they kept?
A literal figurehead on a wholly mechanical body…?
I'd imagine the miniature would be way more Mechanicus in nature if they made him the 40k equivalent of Robocop.
I dunno; Cawl is old enough to realise that there's a reason that the Imperium makes its gear like that, and skilled enough to engineer his stuff within those constraints. Plus the exterior design could easily be a shell over a bunch of distinctly "Mechanicus" parts. Seriously, look at the suits knees: exposed pistons instead of a flexible environmental seal?
Plus, this way there's room for the haemonculi to have fun with the original body, like regrowing a new head on it and using it to play both sides against the middle by claiming it as the "true" Guilleman….
Thairne wrote: For all that is holy... this has to be some random guy spouting gak on the internet.
While the fluff is cool and somewhat interesting, the execution... terrible.
This would leave every player that thought his DA loyalists in a hard position:
Repaint everything black
or
play traitors.
I will do neither of these. If this goes through, I've got a DA army to throw in the bin.
If it would be the other way round (traitors go black and loyalists stay with chapter colours) it would be... acceptable.
No more "DA are traitors" - no, THOSE are and I shoot them on sight!
Smells too much of "I made gak up after seeing Cypher with black dudes".
I hope.
Just imagine how a whole bunch of the green DA that have been inducted since the heresy are going to feel about this discovery.
They are being told they big-damn-heroes and then discover this truth.
Perhaps your Greenies are a group of the more loyalist version that haven't completely dunk the koolaid.
Mr_Rose wrote: I dunno; Cawl is old enough to realise that there's a reason that the Imperium makes its gear like that, and skilled enough to engineer his stuff within those constraints. Plus the exterior design could easily be a shell over a bunch of distinctly "Mechanicus" parts. Seriously, look at the suits knees: exposed pistons instead of a flexible environmental seal?
This is really about any in setting justification. If GW wanted to do a mechaPrimarch, they'd do a mechaPrimarch. They ain't exactly subtle about this stuff.
Vorian wrote: I'm glad we haven't actually had to wait for the book after this book that hasn't been released yet to be released before we get the whinging about how terrible that book's background is.
That's a real time saver
This argument doesn't make any sense, For those that liked the 40k setting as it was, there's no need to see what developments they made in it to know that they don't like it. Especially when the developments in the setting are clearly things that you don't wanted to see (the return of the primarchs).
You don't have to eat gak to know that you don't like it.
Again, I'm not saying that these changes are objectively bad, but personally, I think they are terrible, as the 40k setting was pretty much perfect as it was imo.
Liked it "as it was"? Pretty much perfect?
When? A month ago before The Gathering Storm?
When Squats were squatted? Or back when they were a big part of the Imperium? When GSC were still a dim thing in the background, or when they returned in a big way? Before or after Tau and Kroot were created and inserted into the game. Before Necrons, or with their original fluff or their retconned fluff? Imperial Army, Imperial Guard or Astra Militarium? When Sisters had a real, accessible army, or when they quietly disappeared? When The Battle for the Farm was a "current event"? Back when all Dark Angels wore black armour? Or afterwards when an WD cover artist's misunderstanding of the brief changed their livery forever more? When all Eldar were pirates? Or when their craftworlds were added in? Or much later when their Dark brethren and their mutual hatred were added? Or later again when their uneasy alliances were added in?
The background and story has always slowly been moving forward, and retconning the setting's past has been happening just ad often as new things added have their "oh, that's always been there" written in. This is just more of the same. If you dislike it just play your games in the part of the timeline that fits with your favourite "version" of the total background. Treat the 40k timeline more like Battletech or Middle Earth or even Star Wars.
Most of the changes you've described happened more than a decade and a half ago It's pretty obvious that I wasn't referring to RT era 40k nor 2nd edition. The only real semi recent change you've listed was the one to the Necrons Background, and I'm sure you do know that the Necrons role in the setting is a lot less central than the one of the IOM
And filling some parts of the universe or reintroducing some old armies is not the same thing as moving the time line forward and changing some of the most canonicals stuff in the setting. But then, I have no doubt that you also know that and you're arguing for the sake of it.
Even recently there's been big changes: 5-7 years ago Necrons went to terminator-esque figures to aegyptian space-robots, shifting warriors from being terrifying figures to tragic figures (like you've said). About 3-4 years ago Tau went from an ideallistic and naive faction to an Orwellian state. About 2 years ago, the sisters' incident with the GK was changed into a more palatable thing and Kaldro Draigo moved on to be Space Sisifus to be an even worse sue than what Ward-haters had envisioned. About two years ago or so, Ork technology went from making things "improbable" possible to just "it gives the final push to properly working, but the skilled mechs do 99% of the work", oh and Ghazzghul went to Octarius there too.
If you go and look book by book you'll see changes. Same goes, for example, with the black templars, which now are believed to be barely a thousand, rather than something in the ballpark of 3-6 thousand. Iyanden's backstory too suffered changes in the supplement, and IIRC the Sentinels of Terra did some changes to the IF lore too.
Why do so many of you think that a primarch should be humanly proportional? He is a genetic created super being that has human like traits, but he is not a human.
Big Mac wrote: Why do so many of you think that a primarch should be humanly proportional? He is a genetic created super being that has human like traits, but he is not a human.
I think it's kind of bad from a practical standpoint. He won't fit into anything that his soldiers fit in.. he will stand out on the battlefield (if he fights) really badly, making him a prime target.
I get why they do it, looks heroic and all but in a way I feel like it's more of a disadvantage to the Primarch.
That being said, I still do like the miniature.
Big Mac wrote: Why do so many of you think that a primarch should be humanly proportional? He is a genetic created super being that has human like traits, but he is not a human.
I have no preconceptions about proportions, but I think this is just an awful miniature. It looks like a toy. It's the worst thing GW have done since the Wolf Santa sleigh.
... all just my opinion of course. You're welcome to disagree.
Big Mac wrote: Why do so many of you think that a primarch should be humanly proportional? He is a genetic created super being that has human like traits, but he is not a human.
I think it's kind of bad from a practical standpoint. He won't fit into anything that his soldiers fit in.. he will stand out on the battlefield (if he fights) really badly, making him a prime target.
I get why they do it, looks heroic and all but in a way I feel like it's more of a disadvantage to the Primarch.
That being said, I still do like the miniature.
Of course he won't fit into anything his sons can, he is a primarch, and they are space marines, 2 different genetic enhanced breed based on the human geno; even the runt of the litter, Alpharius was a head taller than regular marines in his normal form. Primarchs are very hard to kill, they are the first generation creation based off the Emperor.
Big Mac wrote: Why do so many of you think that a primarch should be humanly proportional? He is a genetic created super being that has human like traits, but he is not a human.
I think it's kind of bad from a practical standpoint. He won't fit into anything that his soldiers fit in.. he will stand out on the battlefield (if he fights) really badly, making him a prime target.
I get why they do it, looks heroic and all but in a way I feel like it's more of a disadvantage to the Primarch.
That being said, I still do like the miniature.
Of course he won't fit into anything his sons can, he is a primarch, and they are space marines, 2 different genetic enhanced breed based on the human geno; even the runt of the litter, Alpharius was a head taller than regular marines in his normal form. Primarchs are very hard to kill, they are the first generation creation based off the Emperor.
I know that and just stated why I think this approach (fluff) is maybe not such a good idea from a practical standpoint.
But I do like the fluff and the mini so.. I'm fine with it.
Thairne wrote: For all that is holy... this has to be some random guy spouting gak on the internet.
While the fluff is cool and somewhat interesting, the execution... terrible.
This would leave every player that thought his DA loyalists in a hard position:
Repaint everything black
or
play traitors.
I will do neither of these. If this goes through, I've got a DA army to throw in the bin.
If it would be the other way round (traitors go black and loyalists stay with chapter colours) it would be... acceptable.
No more "DA are traitors" - no, THOSE are and I shoot them on sight!
Smells too much of "I made gak up after seeing Cypher with black dudes".
I hope.
If you look closely at the picture where Cypher leads a few black-armoured Dark Angels alongside mr. 13th Primarch, you can see the models are all* wearing Mk. IV armour. To me, that indicates that these are a retinue of loyal 'Fallen' who have operated with Cypher for ten millennia and not 'modern' Dark Angels who have repainted their armour.
So before you throw your DA collection into the trash, maybe consider that.
*With the exception of the robed guys, who do not get helmets, so it might just be Mk IV armour as well.
Is it possible that the black armored heresy era Marines that seem to be following Cypher are actually the Consecrators? They're known to wear older pattern armor and have a red/black color scheme. While yeah, Cypher is said to be "Lord of the Fallen", maybe that's just been propaganda on behalf of the DA.
Mr_Filament wrote: Is it possible that the black armored heresy era Marines that seem to be following Cypher are actually the Consecrators? They're known to wear older pattern armor and have a red/black color scheme. While yeah, Cypher is said to be "Lord of the Fallen", maybe that's just been propaganda on behalf of the DA.
That thought had crossed my mind, too. They have a different chapter symbol, though.
Mr_Filament wrote: Is it possible that the black armored heresy era Marines that seem to be following Cypher are actually the Consecrators? They're known to wear older pattern armor and have a red/black color scheme. While yeah, Cypher is said to be "Lord of the Fallen", maybe that's just been propaganda on behalf of the DA.
That thought had crossed my mind, too. They have a different chapter symbol, though.
Correct, these Marines sport Dark Angel Legion markings, not Consecrator Chapter markings.
How do we know that Cypher isn't playing some Machiavellian long game where him and his Fallen aren't going to betray Guilliman at some point?
My theory is the spit in the Imperium will be that the regular green dark angels who've been hunting Cypher for millennia will not take kindly to the freshly awoken primarch taking him under his wing. Not to mention the fact he's been woken up using xenos Heresy.
I'm in a small camp that likes the model. Loves the cypher mini, so might pick this set up. Admittedly I would have liked Russ or the lion to be released but now I'm thinking black dark angles in 40k = too cool not to be done. Along with some smurfs.
Most of the changes you've described happened more than a decade and a half ago It's pretty obvious that I wasn't referring to RT era 40k nor 2nd edition. The only real semi recent change you've listed was the one to the Necrons Background, and I'm sure you do know that the Necrons role in the setting is a lot less central than the one of the IOM
And filling some parts of the universe or reintroducing some old armies is not the same thing as moving the time line forward and changing some of the most canonicals stuff in the setting. But then, I have no doubt that you also know that and you're arguing for the sake of it.
Yet you still benefit from changes that happened. If we listened to you back then we'd have none of the things we do now.
I was starting to get cautiously exited with this story line with the eldar stuff being rather cool, but this stupid primarch really killed my enthusiasm.
More I think of this more convinced I am this will ruin the setting. There is already an entire separate game and a huge novel series centred around these superpowered man-babies; why they have to invade 40K too?
I just want the Inquisition to put a bullet in his ugly head and hide the body.
Cypher looks cool, and I don't mind Roboute. Both the model and the fact the character's back. Just give me Daemon Fulgrim and we'll put him back to sleep
Is there really a body in there. Looks like some kind of robot with a head attached.
I like the noble look of the FW version a lot more. As i imagine him.
I liked it when the primarchs were more mysterious. Less is more.
Also dont like that so many figures are moving away from miniature size. They are starting to become action figures!
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Hopefully his recovery will help get the Imperium's head out of its ass though.
So basically you want it to stop being the Imperium?
Yes, or split into two Imperiums.
I'll never be able to understand that mindset. If I like something, it's because it is what it is, so why would I want it to be something else?
It's like people who want a dark, gritty, violent, morally-ambiguous Star Trek show.
Because its possible to like multiple things, and even to like things after they change.
Nobody's saying you can't like 40K after the changes, that's a matter of taste, it's the idea that you'd want it to change in the first place if you liked it how it was that baffles me.
Because every so often changing things up can be interesting.
But not this, it's undermining one of the core themes of 40k. GW are pissing all over the background and making sure the stink of their contempt for it runs foetid through every page. Change for change's sake is how we've got this gak fest of 40k's current rules. If the background goes the same way (which all signs point to) then I'm out.
Dude, I've pretty much been out since the new Eldar (sorry, "Aeldari") fluff got revealed. First they pooped all over the background of Dark Eldar, my favourite faction in the game, but then they further push towards this AoS style mish-mash of huge armies made up of broken formations drawn from multiple factions. And to top it off, they continue the push towards OTT, comic book-style miniatures. It's killing the character of both the fluff and the game in my opinion. And now they're doing the same thing to Space Marines, my second favourite faction.
Like, I know a lot of people are stoked for this whole "advancing the storyline thing" but it's basically lost GW my custom, at least until things settle down in a couple of years and I see how badly they've screwed things up.
EDIT: also, am I the only one who's noticed how long Guilliman's neck is? There's been a lot of talk about the wonky thighs or the tiny head but nobody seems to have mentioned how freakishly elongated his neck is!
Lord Kragan wrote: Even recently there's been big changes: 5-7 years ago Necrons went to terminator-esque figures to aegyptian space-robots, shifting warriors from being terrifying figures to tragic figures (like you've said). About 3-4 years ago Tau went from an ideallistic and naive faction to an Orwellian state. About 2 years ago, the sisters' incident with the GK was changed into a more palatable thing and Kaldro Draigo moved on to be Space Sisifus to be an even worse sue than what Ward-haters had envisioned. About two years ago or so, Ork technology went from making things "improbable" possible to just "it gives the final push to properly working, but the skilled mechs do 99% of the work", oh and Ghazzghul went to Octarius there too.
If you go and look book by book you'll see changes. Same goes, for example, with the black templars, which now are believed to be barely a thousand, rather than something in the ballpark of 3-6 thousand. Iyanden's backstory too suffered changes in the supplement, and IIRC the Sentinels of Terra did some changes to the IF lore too.
You're not describing advancement of the plot. You're describing retcons.
40K has been a series of retcons for over a decade now, not advancements.
Marine Centurions? They've always been there. Just off camera! Grey Knight Dreadknights? Yep. They're always had those. We just never talked about them before. Helbrutes? That's just what Chaos Dreads are. Didn't you know? Space Santa? Logan's had the sled in the shop for a few years, tinkering on it whenever he could. It's not new though! Necron Dynasties? They were never soulless mute warriors enslaved to Star Gods. Those initial reports were wrong. What's right is that they've always been over the top drama freaks who live in pseudo-Egyptian kingdoms.
On and on it went, with each new unit getting shoved into the fluff like it was always there. And you know what? That was fine. It was pretty silly sometimes (the Centurion being perhaps the most blatant example), and sometimes it was race-defining (Newcrons), but it's the way you introduce new things when your game is a setting, and not a story.
These recent changes are not the same. These are dramatic swings and changes to the setting. Guilliman's return isn't written off as a "By the end of the Scouring only one Primarch remained, Roboute Gilliman, and he has fought for the Imperium ever since!", no, it's a development. A change to the setting, and a fething dramatic one at that.
40K is not a story of change. It is a setting where new elements are slotted in like new documents for a filing cabinet. To torture the analogy further, GW are now adding a new filing cabinet, and a lot of us are worried that once they've finished filling it they're going shred the documents in the first filing cabinet.
EDIT: also, am I the only one who's noticed how long Guilliman's neck is? There's been a lot of talk about the wonky thighs or the tiny head but nobody seems to have mentioned how freakishly elongated his neck is!
I mentioned that earlier, and it is the biggest and most obvious flaw in the model. It is weird how most people don't seem to notice it. An easy thing to fix though, unlike the fluff.
Dude, I've pretty much been out since the new Eldar (sorry, "Aeldari") fluff got revealed. First they pooped all over the background of Dark Eldar, my favourite faction in the game, but then they further push towards this AoS style mish-mash of huge armies made up of broken formations drawn from multiple factions. And to top it off, they continue the push towards OTT, comic book-style miniatures. It's killing the character of both the fluff and the game in my opinion. And now they're doing the same thing to Space Marines, my second favourite faction.
i do find the current "aeldari" (vulcans?) lovefest with the imperium to be sickening, all the more reason loyalist knife ear lovers derserve a spiky demon crab claw through the gut
EDIT: also, am I the only one who's noticed how long Guilliman's neck is? There's been a lot of talk about the wonky thighs or the tiny head but nobody seems to have mentioned how freakishly elongated his neck is!
I mentioned that earlier, and it is the biggest and most obvious flaw in the model. It is weird how most people don't seem to notice it. An easy thing to fix though, unlike the fluff.
Yep it would look better if the helmet was more "sunken" into the torso armor.
Really happy to see the story advance, about time! And Super pumped to see a new Cypher model, looks awesome!! New Guilliman model is growing on me, his new armor is a little flashy for me, and he looks too young in the face, I wish he looked older, I'm glad they redesigned him, the FW heresy version is not my cup of tea. Last thing, a new plastic Abaddon would have been awesome, GW dropped the ball on that one.
streetsamurai wrote: yeah, he looks like a deformed teenager going through his growth spurt.
No he doesn't.
If you don't like the model, that's fine, but we need to cut the Internet Hyperbole down a bit before it gets too overblown.
Lets be fair, the mini is awkward despite being impressive from a technical standard, but that face on his exposed head has to be one of the worst, softest sculpted faces GW has produced since the SM plastic scouts or even the catachan box.
perezba7 wrote: Really happy to see the story advance, about time! And Super pumped to see a new Cypher model, looks awesome!! New Guilliman model is growing on me, his new armor is a little flashy for me, and he looks too young in the face, I wish he looked older, I'm glad they redesigned him, the FW heresy version is not my cup of tea. Last thing, a new plastic Abaddon would have been awesome, GW dropped the ball on that one.
I'm far from an expert on 40K fluff, but ain't Abaddon kind of past it. I know Gathering Storms is about his 13th (or is it 14th?) Black Crusade but I fail to see how he will stand up to GR. At the very least, he sure doesn't seem menacing anymore. And even if they do a new daemonic version of him, we just had Magnus, the daemonic version of a fething Primarch, he just doesn't stack up (and this is basically why I'm against the return of the Primarch, chaos or loyalist).
Haters just mad their special snowflake Primarch didn't get picked to come back.
Sorry, GW picked their best written one, and the only that ever showed the ability to get gak done after the Heresy. Also, his model is rad, especially with the helmet.
Also, don't crap on Abaddon, he isn't a Primarch but he is the closest in power to one any Space Marine has ever come. He has the powers of Chaos to back him up as well.
TheArmorOfContempt wrote: Haters just mad their special snowflake Primarch didn't get picked to come back.
Sorry, GW picked their best written one, and the only that ever showed the ability to get gak done after the Heresy. Also, his model is rad, especially with the helmet.
Also, don't crap on Abaddon, he isn't a Primarch but he is the closest in power to one any Space Marine has ever come. He has the powers of Chaos to back him up as well.
I've seen almost no Girlyman hate in this thread... well, one or two "Aww I wished it was the Lion, oh well!" posts but that's about it.
People seem more upset about the (loyalist) Primarchs returning at all and with good reason.
TheArmorOfContempt wrote: Haters just mad their special snowflake Primarch didn't get picked to come back.
Sorry, GW picked their best written one, and the only that ever showed the ability to get gak done after the Heresy. Also, his model is rad, especially with the helmet.
Also, don't crap on Abaddon, he isn't a Primarch but he is the closest in power to one any Space Marine has ever come. He has the powers of Chaos to back him up as well.
I've seen almost no Girlyman hate in this thread... well, one or two "Aww I wished it was the Lion, oh well!" posts but that's about it.
People seem more upset about the (loyalist) Primarchs returning at all and with good reason.
Indeed. I absolutely didn't want to see any of the loyalist Primarchs returning.
TheArmorOfContempt wrote: Haters just mad their special snowflake Primarch didn't get picked to come back.
Sorry, GW picked their best written one, and the only that ever showed the ability to get gak done after the Heresy. Also, his model is rad, especially with the helmet.
Also, don't crap on Abaddon, he isn't a Primarch but he is the closest in power to one any Space Marine has ever come. He has the powers of Chaos to back him up as well.
I've seen almost no Girlyman hate in this thread... well, one or two "Aww I wished it was the Lion, oh well!" posts but that's about it.
People seem more upset about the (loyalist) Primarchs returning at all and with good reason.
I don't know, the model hate seems unwarranted, I get not liking the new aesthetics but most of it seems pretty overboard. But I'm basically stirring gak.
I can however agree that I was not on board with the loyal Primarchs returning because it pretty much back seats guys like Calgar, Dante, and Grimnar. Even Abaddon, because the whole idea up to this point was that the Primarch's had their chance and failed. I would've preferred some sort of handing of the torch scenario where Calgar or one of the known chapter masters essentially is imbued with their Primarch's essence or something along those lines.
This all being said, people hating on Roboute is nothing new. He did receive arguably the best HH novel which portrayed him in the best possible light to his brothers. I can also say that once you get past the point of accepting Primarchs are back, then I'm at least happy my chapter gets first crack, which makes all the more sense since something like 2/3rds of Marines come from the Ultramarines, despite all the glory hogging the 1st founders get.
Red Corsair wrote: Lets be fair, the mini is awkward despite being impressive from a technical standard, but that face on his exposed head has to be one of the worst, softest sculpted faces GW has produced since the SM plastic scouts or even the catachan box.
Lord Kragan wrote: Even recently there's been big changes: 5-7 years ago Necrons went to terminator-esque figures to aegyptian space-robots, shifting warriors from being terrifying figures to tragic figures (like you've said). About 3-4 years ago Tau went from an ideallistic and naive faction to an Orwellian state. About 2 years ago, the sisters' incident with the GK was changed into a more palatable thing and Kaldro Draigo moved on to be Space Sisifus to be an even worse sue than what Ward-haters had envisioned. About two years ago or so, Ork technology went from making things "improbable" possible to just "it gives the final push to properly working, but the skilled mechs do 99% of the work", oh and Ghazzghul went to Octarius there too.
If you go and look book by book you'll see changes. Same goes, for example, with the black templars, which now are believed to be barely a thousand, rather than something in the ballpark of 3-6 thousand. Iyanden's backstory too suffered changes in the supplement, and IIRC the Sentinels of Terra did some changes to the IF lore too.
You're not describing advancement of the plot. You're describing retcons.
40K has been a series of retcons for over a decade now, not advancements.
Marine Centurions? They've always been there. Just off camera!
Grey Knight Dreadknights? Yep. They're always had those. We just never talked about them before.
Helbrutes? That's just what Chaos Dreads are. Didn't you know?
Space Santa? Logan's had the sled in the shop for a few years, tinkering on it whenever he could. It's not new though!
Necron Dynasties? They were never soulless mute warriors enslaved to Star Gods. Those initial reports were wrong. What's right is that they've always been over the top drama freaks who live in pseudo-Egyptian kingdoms.
On and on it went, with each new unit getting shoved into the fluff like it was always there. And you know what? That was fine. It was pretty silly sometimes (the Centurion being perhaps the most blatant example), and sometimes it was race-defining (Newcrons), but it's the way you introduce new things when your game is a setting, and not a story.
These recent changes are not the same. These are dramatic swings and changes to the setting. Guilliman's return isn't written off as a "By the end of the Scouring only one Primarch remained, Roboute Gilliman, and he has fought for the Imperium ever since!", no, it's a development. A change to the setting, and a fething dramatic one at that.
40K is not a story of change. It is a setting where new elements are slotted in like new documents for a filing cabinet. To torture the analogy further, GW are now adding a new filing cabinet, and a lot of us are worried that once they've finished filling it they're going shred the documents in the first filing cabinet.
Get it?
Which is why I used the word: CHANGES. Look at my post. How often do you see the word story advancement? I speak of changes, which this is.
What I get is this: based on a completely different story you're thinking everything is going to go equally the same to said story and you're not going to like it. With extremely solid proof on the matter, dare I say, on the matter. And no matter how many "no tanks" one-liners you want to make, you have no proof on the matter. Instead of thinking: hey it's not going to happen, your traing thought is deadset in: IT'S HAPPENING!! Which is fine and dandy but ultimately it brings to the same place as the alternative mindset (nowhere) but with an added dose of vitriol.
I for one don't mind this changes, nor am afraid of what's to come. Change, after all, is part of nature. (and my second army).
Most of the changes you've described happened more than a decade and a half ago It's pretty obvious that I wasn't referring to RT era 40k nor 2nd edition. The only real semi recent change you've listed was the one to the Necrons Background, and I'm sure you do know that the Necrons role in the setting is a lot less central than the one of the IOM
And filling some parts of the universe or reintroducing some old armies is not the same thing as moving the time line forward and changing some of the most canonicals stuff in the setting. But then, I have no doubt that you also know that and you're arguing for the sake of it.
Yet you still benefit from changes that happened. If we listened to you back then we'd have none of the things we do now.
What an absurd thing to say. I never said I was opposed to GW filling up the 40k universe and introducting new races. In fact, I'm all for it.
Lord Kragan wrote: Even recently there's been big changes: 5-7 years ago Necrons went to terminator-esque figures to aegyptian space-robots, shifting warriors from being terrifying figures to tragic figures (like you've said). About 3-4 years ago Tau went from an ideallistic and naive faction to an Orwellian state. About 2 years ago, the sisters' incident with the GK was changed into a more palatable thing and Kaldro Draigo moved on to be Space Sisifus to be an even worse sue than what Ward-haters had envisioned. About two years ago or so, Ork technology went from making things "improbable" possible to just "it gives the final push to properly working, but the skilled mechs do 99% of the work", oh and Ghazzghul went to Octarius there too.
If you go and look book by book you'll see changes. Same goes, for example, with the black templars, which now are believed to be barely a thousand, rather than something in the ballpark of 3-6 thousand. Iyanden's backstory too suffered changes in the supplement, and IIRC the Sentinels of Terra did some changes to the IF lore too.
You're not describing advancement of the plot. You're describing retcons.
40K has been a series of retcons for over a decade now, not advancements.
Marine Centurions? They've always been there. Just off camera!
Grey Knight Dreadknights? Yep. They're always had those. We just never talked about them before.
Helbrutes? That's just what Chaos Dreads are. Didn't you know?
Space Santa? Logan's had the sled in the shop for a few years, tinkering on it whenever he could. It's not new though!
Necron Dynasties? They were never soulless mute warriors enslaved to Star Gods. Those initial reports were wrong. What's right is that they've always been over the top drama freaks who live in pseudo-Egyptian kingdoms.
On and on it went, with each new unit getting shoved into the fluff like it was always there. And you know what? That was fine. It was pretty silly sometimes (the Centurion being perhaps the most blatant example), and sometimes it was race-defining (Newcrons), but it's the way you introduce new things when your game is a setting, and not a story.
These recent changes are not the same. These are dramatic swings and changes to the setting. Guilliman's return isn't written off as a "By the end of the Scouring only one Primarch remained, Roboute Gilliman, and he has fought for the Imperium ever since!", no, it's a development. A change to the setting, and a fething dramatic one at that.
40K is not a story of change. It is a setting where new elements are slotted in like new documents for a filing cabinet. To torture the analogy further, GW are now adding a new filing cabinet, and a lot of us are worried that once they've finished filling it they're going shred the documents in the first filing cabinet.
Get it?
Which is why I used the word: CHANGES. Look at my post. How often do you see the word story advancement? I speak of changes, which this is.
What I get is this: based on a completely different story you're thinking everything is going to go equally the same to said story and you're not going to like it. With extremely solid proof on the matter, dare I say, on the matter.
Let's not pretend that all changes have the same impact. Introducing Ogre kingdom in WHFB was a change, but its impact was vastly more limited than the changes AOS brought.
Arguing that the changes to the Necron fluff has as much impact as the re-introduction of the Primarchs makes you look silly.
Ultimately what will be the effects of introduction of Guilliman: will he punch the chaos hordes back? He'll close the eye of terror, erecting a wall and making the black legion pay for it in blood? He and his loyal brothers tried in the heresy, ultimately failing. Reallistically speaking, he's acually a strong change, yes, but he's effects were shown clearly during the events of HH. The return of a Primarch is being overrated, specially since Vulkan did so (In the M32, but nevertheless did) and his contribution to the war of the beast was.... what? Think about it and you'll realise that, while strong, the effect is nowhere close to what people are thinking of.
MrVulcanator wrote: This is very exciting. I'm so glad that they're finally bringing an uncorrupted Primarch back! Wonder if he'll become the new acting Emperor.
I doubt it. I don't think Guilliman has the psychic mojo to be on the Golden Throne. It was Magnus, Malcador or the big E himself who were the only folks capable of doing that.
MrVulcanator wrote: This is very exciting. I'm so glad that they're finally bringing an uncorrupted Primarch back! Wonder if he'll become the new acting Emperor.
I doubt it. I don't think Guilliman has the psychic mojo to be on the Golden Throne. It was Magnus, Malcador or the big E himself who were the only folks capable of doing that.
Acting Emperor as in person leading the Imperium, not as in sitting on the throne, I assume they meant.
I have wanted a good reason to purchase the Forgeworld Guilliman model ever since it came out. NOW I have a good reason. As others have said, the new Guilliman model looks bad.
MrVulcanator wrote: This is very exciting. I'm so glad that they're finally bringing an uncorrupted Primarch back! Wonder if he'll become the new acting Emperor.
I doubt it. I don't think Guilliman has the psychic mojo to be on the Golden Throne. It was Magnus, Malcador or the big E himself who were the only folks capable of doing that.
You misunderstand, the Corpse Emperor is taking care of the Golden Throne, what I'm saying is that Guilliman could be the acting emperor, as in have the political power without having to sit on the death chair.
MrVulcanator wrote: This is very exciting. I'm so glad that they're finally bringing an uncorrupted Primarch back! Wonder if he'll become the new acting Emperor.
I doubt it. I don't think Guilliman has the psychic mojo to be on the Golden Throne. It was Magnus, Malcador or the big E himself who were the only folks capable of doing that.
You misunderstand, the Corpse Emperor is taking care of the Golden Throne, what I'm saying is that Guilliman could be the acting emperor, as in have the political power without having to sit on the death chair.
Didn't he become the acting emperor for a short period after the big E fell? It would make sense that he would be again...
MrVulcanator wrote: This is very exciting. I'm so glad that they're finally bringing an uncorrupted Primarch back! Wonder if he'll become the new acting Emperor.
I doubt it. I don't think Guilliman has the psychic mojo to be on the Golden Throne. It was Magnus, Malcador or the big E himself who were the only folks capable of doing that.
You misunderstand, the Corpse Emperor is taking care of the Golden Throne, what I'm saying is that Guilliman could be the acting emperor, as in have the political power without having to sit on the death chair.
It's unlikely. The High Lords wouldn't be too happy with a Primarch leading the Imperium. They could comply, but they'd probably be scheming behind Big G's back. The HL didn't even like having a Space Marine, much less a Primarch (The Beast series)
As a super space marine model Guilliman Looks alright but it feels all wrong for him. Guilliman is described as handsome in a simple way. Portraying intelligence, and strength. Lacking the severity, and rage inherent in some of his brothers. There is nothing in this model that makes me feel like I'm looking at a handsome thoughtful warrior. His face is hard, ugly and angry.
Then the designs on the armor look more like a chaos model then a space marine. Filigree like that is all over chaos space marines, but Guilliman's takes it up a notch to the point where it feels noisy. The scroll on top of the ultramarine sign on top of the sun is a mess. His armour should be a continued representation of his personality. This is not the armor of a simple elegant man, who views thought and intellect as the keys to victory. The chaotic overlapping designs feel more fit for a madman, then a commander.
If they had released this as a souped up chaos model I would be singing its praises. As it stands I think it is a tone deaf representation of this character. Perhaps the lore will come out and Guilliman will have been changed to better suit this ugly super soldier, but I wish we had gotten a model that better represented Guilliman as he was written originally.
Warhams-77 wrote: I am quite happy with the models' details. They are not overly covered with bling. What we get fits the story and is quite conservative
Could somebody take this and change the arm with the plasma pistol to be pointing downards? like he's in the middle of turning around to bear both guns.
The model looks great but i find it way too static for cypher.
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coblen wrote: As a super space marine model Guilliman Looks alright but it feels all wrong for him. Guilliman is described as handsome in a simple way. Portraying intelligence, and strength. Lacking the severity, and rage inherent in some of his brothers. There is nothing in this model that makes me feel like I'm looking at a handsome thoughtful warrior. His face is hard, ugly and angry.
Then the designs on the armor look more like a chaos model then a space marine. Filigree like that is all over chaos space marines, but Guilliman's takes it up a notch to the point where it feels noisy. The scroll on top of the ultramarine sign on top of the sun is a mess. His armour should be a continued representation of his personality. This is not the armor of a simple elegant man, who views thought and intellect as the keys to victory. The chaotic overlapping designs feel more fit for a madman, then a commander.
If they had released this as a souped up chaos model I would be singing its praises. As it stands I think it is a tone deaf representation of this character. Perhaps the lore will come out and Guilliman will have been changed to better suit this ugly super soldier, but I wish we had gotten a model that better represented Guilliman as he was written originally.
I agree and on top of that I don't get the symbolism of the swirlies. They look like flames, but the closest I could think of would a phoenix, guilliman rising out of the ashes of an imperium to save it kind of thing. Nothing related to either him, UM or the imperium.
They just seem to be there for bling. I would have expected him to have more spartan look.
MrVulcanator wrote: This is very exciting. I'm so glad that they're finally bringing an uncorrupted Primarch back! Wonder if he'll become the new acting Emperor.
I doubt it. I don't think Guilliman has the psychic mojo to be on the Golden Throne. It was Magnus, Malcador or the big E himself who were the only folks capable of doing that.
Acting Emperor as in person leading the Imperium, not as in sitting on the throne, I assume they meant.
Not sure if things will have changed by now, but during the Beast series(sometime in M32 IIRC) the head of the high lords was given the title of Lord Guilliman. If he makes it to Terra by 8th ed he will probably want his chair back. But that would tie him up in the administration and politics of the Imperium, making his constant table top adventures even more improbable. I wouldn't be surprised if events keep him from Terra or force him to leave soon after arriving.
The design of all the filigree on the armor makes sense when you look at the Custodes. They are meant to symbolize the majesty of the Emperor, and not the Ultramarines themselves.
Which may seem weird, but all things considered, as the lone Primarch standing... The Imperium of humanity needs him to stand in for the Emperor than just be the leader of the ultramarines. At least until the others show up amd we get the post human oligarchy the traitors always wanted...
insaniak wrote: It doesn't look 'grand' to me. It just looks like a human that's been sculpted in a different scale.
And it's a problem every time he wants to walk through a door.
Making them slightly larger than regular Marines would have still been impressive while maintaining some semblance of practicality. Making them twice the size just shatters suspension of disbelief through being thoroughly impractical and looking stupid.
YMMV, obviously.
I am curious how you feel about all these Marines that are suppose to fit in a Rhino for the last 20 or so years? To me this shouldn't be able to be done. No way they can fit it. Or how a dreadnaught comes out of a drop pod that is made for Space Marines instead and he can't fit in there. They way I see it, the scale will never be correct and it's playing with plastic toy soldiers and you have to suspend disbelief. Nothing is ever to scale. So for me, I don't see what the big deal is. I can see your point of view though if this has been bugging you for the last 20 years about the Rhino issues.
Carlovonsexron wrote: The design of all the filigree on the armor makes sense when you look at the Custodes. They are meant to symbolize the majesty of the Emperor, and not the Ultramarines themselves.
Which may seem weird, but all things considered, as the lone Primarch standing... The Imperium of humanity needs him to stand in for the Emperor than just be the leader of the ultramarines. At least until the others show up amd we get the post human oligarchy the traitors always wanted...
The custodes filigree looks downright reserved in comparison to Guilliman. The custodes filigree is made of small elegant curving pieces. Their filigree is placed sparingly in appropriate places and does not create the same overly complicated noise of Guilliman. Guilliman is just covered head to toe in thick messy filigree. So much so that none of it stands out, and the whole piece seems muddled.
It is definitely possible to make an armour that both symbolizes the majesty of the emperor, and still accurately portrays the character that is wearing it. I don't think this model does either.
And yet still isn't nearly as much of a special snowflake as any of his brothers. My god....he's a tactical genious? The Roman-themed Thrawn of 40K? That's it?
He's downright normal compared to the rest of the genetic and emotional freaks the Emperor made (with an assist from Chaos, granted).
We've got mutants, unknown twins, a psycopathic Batman, the Grim Reaper, Genghis Khan, the viking lord of werewolves, a hedonist, a crazy preacher, etc.
TheArmorOfContempt wrote: Also all this hating on RG and few people have taken the time to address Grandmaster Generic of the 3rd Brotherhood.
That is true, that guy is technically well done, and would be very cool if he were leading a new Grey Knight release with its own little story, but he is so extremely overshadowed by the awesome hero from ten millennia ago with the massive sword who will rescue mankind and by Guilliman, he doesn't even really get noticed.
Darkseid wrote: Really not a fan of organic looking armor. Luckily there is a FW Gulliman version.
This comment is not directed at your Darkseid, but I have been seeing comments like this a lot of a few sites now.
The thing is, if you can get Forge World then all is fine. What if you can't? For those who can't, now they have another way of getting him now. I always find it funny how we complain, we only think of ourselves, but never think of others. So if it doesn't affect ourselves, all is fine then.
I say we should just be happy now others can order this at their game store now if we like it or not.
Tsukuru wrote: From the leaks, this armour was made by Cawl, so I guess that explains it being much more ornate / over the top than his original effort...
It is a bit much, but they probably had to make it look different from the FW model.
I don't see why people are getting upset. I think Tsukuru is correct. Cawl could be a good explanation as to why he is taller and bigger.
Well Darth Vader is so much bigger and taller than Anakin Skywalker. Nobody seemed to complain about Darth Vader being too big.
Alpharius wrote: There is a thread for the Gathering Storm PT 2 - let's keep this one focused on Pt. 3 please - thanks!
I honestly think it would have been easier to have made a thread for the series as a whole. Seriously, we have people talking of pt2 here and people talking of part 3 there.
